From twaugh at redhat.com Mon Dec 1 10:28:46 2003 From: twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:28:46 +0000 Subject: Heads up: DocBook XML -> text now prefers w3m Message-ID: <20031201102846.GU6829@redhat.com> Hi, The latest release of xmlto (0.0.17) uses w3m, if it is available, to convert from DocBook XML to (HTML to) text. Previously it used lynx or else links. Let me know if it causes any problems. Thanks, Tim. */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ed at redhat.com Mon Dec 1 16:12:55 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 11:12:55 -0500 Subject: Red Hat vs. Fedora In-Reply-To: <3FC5250B.2060805@dslextreme.com> (Akbar S. Ahmed's message of "Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:11:23 -0800") References: <3FC51EC0.5080409@devin.com.br> <3FC5250B.2060805@dslextreme.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "Akbar" == Akbar S Ahmed writes: Akbar> Hugo Cisneiros wrote: >> I was revising the pt_BR.po file from the anaconda-po translation, and >> noticed that I still see many Red Hat Linux names instead of Fedora. We >> should leave it? For example... Akbar> I'm not sure of the official line on this, but personnally I think Akbar> we should go with Fedora. The last thing we want to do is confuse Akbar> new users. Also, as we move forward I'm sure everyone will want to Akbar> give Fedora its own flavor and "branding". This seems reasonable to me, personally... Akbar> However, work that is done by Red Hat should of course stay Akbar> copyright Red Hat. True. However, it would be *really* nice if people that notice "Red Hat Linux" in the .po files submit a bug to the appropriate package (anaconda, in this case) to let the developers know that there might be an issue? I myself found a similar problem after Fedora Core had gone gold, and was surprised that it had been completely missed by the developers... Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From ed at redhat.com Mon Dec 1 16:21:08 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 11:21:08 -0500 Subject: New ENTITY declarations? In-Reply-To: <1069896075.18667.17.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> (Paul W. Frields's message of "Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:21:15 -0500") References: <1069896075.18667.17.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: >>>>> "Paul" == Paul W Frields writes: ... Paul> Paul> http://fedora.redhat.com/"> Paul> Paul> Paul> http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/"> I'll let Karsten's fine response speak for me on the whole, however, I would like to note that you seem to be mixing metaphors a bit here. For example, you call the overall project FEDORA, but the Fedora Core distribution is DISTRO. It might be a bit nicer to have something like: http://fedora.redhat.com/"> http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/"> Just a thought, Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From ed at redhat.com Mon Dec 1 16:24:12 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 11:24:12 -0500 Subject: New ENTITY declarations? In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031130095728.026320e8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> (Dave Pawson's message of "Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:04:06 +0000") References: <1069896075.18667.17.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031127185929.02570f40@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <1070093206.3247.5102.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031130095728.026320e8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: >>>>> "Dave" == Dave Pawson writes: Dave> Which is fedora working in? I've assumed XML. Is there much SGML Dave> legacy? The Fedora Project documentation is meant to be in XML. There is a *massive* amount of SGML legacy on the internal side (in fact the only documentation not produced in DocBook/SGML format are the RHEL release notes). Long-term, we'll likely move to DocBook/XML internally, but this is probably not too interesting to y'all... :-) Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From kwade at redhat.com Mon Dec 1 20:10:10 2003 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: 01 Dec 2003 12:10:10 -0800 Subject: New ENTITY declarations? In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031130095728.026320e8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> References: <1069896075.18667.17.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031127185929.02570f40@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <1070093206.3247.5102.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031130095728.026320e8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: <1070309409.3058.2479.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2003-11-30 at 02:04, Dave Pawson wrote: > At 08:06 29/11/2003, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > >We use a common set available to all document writers, following the > >format of fedora-entities.sgml. The contents of that file would be > >pulled into the parent XML like: > > > > > > >"../fedora-common-xml/fedora-entities.xml"> > >%FEDORA-ENTITIES; > > Which is fine if the structure on an authors machine reflects > that on the fedora build. > 1. Is that the intention. > 2. Is that structure documented? > > (That's why I suggested the use of a uri on the redhat site, > and a local catalog entry to map that to the local instance for > local use) [clipped and moved...] >The target file in the common directory is called via a relative path, > >i.e. it's always in an expected location of off the Fedora docs cvsroot, > >../fedora-common-xml/fedora-entities.xml. > > > Are all authors expected to work with that relative path? I am suggesting one idea for this, and yes under this idea, all authors would work with that relative path. To work on a document, you would need to check out the common directories module (of at least one top level directory), and put it in a specific relative path. This idea is not yet a procedure; we are discussing that. I actually like the idea of using a URI, will it work within the entity? That seems to fit into the spirit of things. :) It's structurally different from a CVS module on a relative path, but it's essentially the same thing - a remote canonical source you generally only have read access to and you keep a copy of locally. Two proposals summarized: 1. CVS Common Directories Module Method A. CVS module contains common directories of XML entities, could also include graphics, common content such as legalnotices/other boilerplate, trademark pages (listing all the trademarks used in all the documentation), etc. B. Authors need to place that CVS module (or a symlink to it) on a relative path of ../ to any module/document they are working on. C. Guide specific entities can be declared in the parent XML file. 2. Common Entities in DTD (please correct my inaccuracies) A. Common entities are added to Fedora specific DTD and served from fedora.redhat.com. B. Authors calling the DTD gain access to the entities, which are listed XXXXX (manually on the FDP pages? extracted via xml-fu from the DTD?) C. Local copies of the DTD are kept, as is common. Thoughts? > > >I'm not 100% certain that my syntax is accurate for the XML DTD; it > >works for SGML. > > Which is fedora working in? > I've assumed XML. Is there much SGML legacy? As Ed said, internal only legacy; I only meant that I grabbed samples from SGML usage and didn't check them for XML accuracy; they should be compliant, but YMMV. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: +1.831.466.9664 kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: +1.831.818.9995 Red Hat Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal Server -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- From tfox at redhat.com Tue Dec 2 02:09:04 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:09:04 -0500 Subject: mistake entity (was: filename) In-Reply-To: <3fc716f1.2171%ml@elf.no-ip.org> References: <3fbdbf3a.4542%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <20031121134821.GA10230@redhat.com> <20031121224542.GE12282@redhat.com> <3fc716f1.2171%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Message-ID: <20031202020903.GC1474@redhat.com> Sorry about that. I fixed it in CVS. Tammy On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 06:35:45PM +0900, Tadashi Jokagi wrote: > Hi, > > I thought that it would contribute to bugzilla. > However, since a category was not found, it gave up;-) > ENTITY has a mistake. > > RCS file: /usr/local/CVS/fedora-docs/install-guide/fedora-install-guide-en.xml,v > retrieving revision 1.1 > diff -r1.1 fedora-install-guide-en.xml > 12c12 > < > --- > > > > -- > ----.----1----.----2----.----3----.----4----.----5----.----6----.----7 > Tadashi Jokagi/Shibuya city mailto:elf at elf.no-ip.org > Yokukitana http://elf.no-ip.org/ > Yokukitawiki http://elf.no-ip.org/wiki/ > Yokukitablog http://elf.no-ip.org/blog/ > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- From tfox at redhat.com Tue Dec 2 02:12:15 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:12:15 -0500 Subject: mistake entity (was: filename) In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031128180457.02622e28@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> References: <3fbdbf3a.4542%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <20031121134821.GA10230@redhat.com> <20031121224542.GE12282@redhat.com> <3fc716f1.2171%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031128180457.02622e28@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: <20031202021214.GD1474@redhat.com> On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 06:05:43PM +0000, Dave Pawson wrote: > At 09:35 28/11/2003, you wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I thought that it would contribute to bugzilla. > >However, since a category was not found, it gave up;-) > >ENTITY has a mistake. > > > >RCS file: > >/usr/local/CVS/fedora-docs/install-guide/fedora-install-guide-en.xml,v > >retrieving revision 1.1 > >diff -r1.1 fedora-install-guide-en.xml > >12c12 > >< > > Would a net address be easier, > then we could map it to a local file via a catalog? > Tammy? > I would rather keep it all in CVS. Everyone has to checkout the module anyway. Being able to compile without an Internet is nice if you need to work on the road or elsewhere Tammy > regards DaveP > > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- From tfox at redhat.com Tue Dec 2 02:13:18 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:13:18 -0500 Subject: mistake entity (was: filename) In-Reply-To: <3fca78bb.2183%ml@elf.no-ip.org> References: <3fc716f1.2171%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031128180457.02622e28@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <200311301954.hAUJs0m2012729@proxy6.impress.co.jp> <3fca78bb.2183%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Message-ID: <20031202021318.GE1474@redhat.com> Are you proposing this for the website or CVS? On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 08:09:47AM +0900, Tadashi Jokagi wrote: > Hi, > > I propose creating the directory of a language name. > > ex) > - /de/developers-guide/index.html > - /en/developers-guide/index.html > - /ja/developers-guide/index.html > > Reason > > - There is no reason in being intermingled by many languages. > -- However, there may be a merit about a web page. > - It is hard to treat with a local file system. > - Finally, the number of files becomes huge. > > As far as I know, as for a many languages manual, PHP's is consulted very much. > If there is time, please make it reference. > > http://pear.php.net/manual/ > http://cvs.php.net/cvs.php/peardoc > > -- > ----.----1----.----2----.----3----.----4----.----5----.----6----.----7 > Tadashi Jokagi/Shibuya city mailto:elf at elf.no-ip.org > Yokukitana http://elf.no-ip.org/ > Yokukitawiki http://elf.no-ip.org/wiki/ > Yokukitablog http://elf.no-ip.org/blog/ > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- From tfox at redhat.com Tue Dec 2 02:14:25 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:14:25 -0500 Subject: Brazilian Portuguese In-Reply-To: <3FC5307C.80300@devin.com.br> References: <3FC2B9EB.2090409@devin.com.br> <3FC43515.20907@devin.com.br> <3FC5307C.80300@devin.com.br> Message-ID: <20031202021425.GF1474@redhat.com> On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 08:00:12PM -0300, Hugo Cisneiros wrote: > Hugo Cisneiros wrote: > >Well, three people appeared with this message. I think many people > >willing to contribute don't know the existence of this list... I'm > >thinking on creating a list devoted to this language. What do you think? > >It'll be better to discute translation to this specific language. Any > >ideas? :) > > Hi, I created two lists: > > fedora-br > fedora-i18n-br > > The first is for Brazilian users, and the second is for Brazilian > translators. If you're interested, you can subscribe sending a blank > e-mail to: > > fedora-br-subscribe at devin.com.br > or > fedora-i18n-br-subscribe at devin.com.br > > And wait for confirmation. Discussions will be in Brazilian Portuguese. > I appreciate any feedback :) > > []'s > Hugo > > Would you like to have @redhat.com mailing lists instead? I can get them setup for you. Just let me know. Tammy From sarahs at redhat.com Tue Dec 2 02:19:01 2003 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 12:19:01 +1000 Subject: Brazilian Portuguese In-Reply-To: <20031202021425.GF1474@redhat.com> References: <3FC2B9EB.2090409@devin.com.br> <3FC43515.20907@devin.com.br> <3FC5307C.80300@devin.com.br> <20031202021425.GF1474@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3FCBF695.2050303@redhat.com> Tammy Fox wrote: > On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 08:00:12PM -0300, Hugo Cisneiros wrote: > >>Hugo Cisneiros wrote: >> >>>Well, three people appeared with this message. I think many people >>>willing to contribute don't know the existence of this list... I'm >>>thinking on creating a list devoted to this language. What do you think? >>>It'll be better to discute translation to this specific language. Any >>>ideas? :) >> >>Hi, I created two lists: >> >>fedora-br >>fedora-i18n-br >> >>The first is for Brazilian users, and the second is for Brazilian >>translators. If you're interested, you can subscribe sending a blank >>e-mail to: >> >>fedora-br-subscribe at devin.com.br >>or >>fedora-i18n-br-subscribe at devin.com.br >> >>And wait for confirmation. Discussions will be in Brazilian Portuguese. >>I appreciate any feedback :) >> >>[]'s >>Hugo >> >> > > > Would you like to have @redhat.com mailing lists instead? I can get > them setup for you. Just let me know. Hi Tammy, I've already sent the request to the helpdesk to have those mailing lists set up. Haven't heard back from them yet :) Sarah > > Tammy > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From ml at elf.no-ip.org Tue Dec 2 05:22:16 2003 From: ml at elf.no-ip.org (Tadashi Jokagi) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 14:22:16 +0900 Subject: mistake entity (was: filename) In-Reply-To: <20031202021318.GE1474@redhat.com> References: <3fc716f1.2171%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031128180457.02622e28@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <200311301954.hAUJs0m2012729@proxy6.impress.co.jp> <3fca78bb.2183%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <20031202021318.GE1474@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3fcc2188.4630%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Hi, Tammy Fox's "Re: mistake entity (was: filename)" wrote: >Are you proposing this for the website or CVS? It is website. As for PHP, CVS is also the same. However, if the optimal, I think that now is still sufficient as CVS. -- ----.----1----.----2----.----3----.----4----.----5----.----6----.----7 Tadashi Jokagi/Shibuya city mailto:elf at elf.no-ip.org Yokukitana http://elf.no-ip.org/ Yokukitawiki http://elf.no-ip.org/wiki/ Yokukitablog http://elf.no-ip.org/blog/ Fedora JP Project http://www.linuxml.net/ From noriko at redhat.com Tue Dec 2 06:08:13 2003 From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto) Date: 02 Dec 2003 16:08:13 +1000 Subject: Japanese Translation In-Reply-To: <200311301715.hAUHFom2005090@proxy6.impress.co.jp> References: <200311301715.hAUHFom2005090@proxy6.impress.co.jp> Message-ID: <1070345293.1983.52.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> 2003?12?01?(?)?03?15?? Naoki Shigematsu ??: > Hi, > > In Japan, Fedora JP Project started up and > activity is begun. > > There are about 20 staff with an activity. > > First, we are beginning to translate the document. > > Web > Developer's Guide and Doucumentation guide. > software po etc. Hello, thank you for your contribution. Since we are still seeking for the most maintainable ways to translate documetns, please concentrate on the software translation. To avoid any conflicts, every translator is encouraged to declair the module which you will translate before start. > > Now, when Red Hat Linux was released, > Japanese Documents were translated in Australia. > > This time, does the schedule exist? No, there is no set procedure. Cheers Noriko -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ml at elf.no-ip.org Tue Dec 2 06:18:55 2003 From: ml at elf.no-ip.org (Tadashi Jokagi) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:18:55 +0900 Subject: Japanese Translation In-Reply-To: <1070345293.1983.52.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <200311301715.hAUHFom2005090@proxy6.impress.co.jp> <1070345293.1983.52.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <3fcc2ecf.4636%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Hi, What thing is software translation? is, is it ls-bash etc.? For example, ls, bash, and anaconda binary? Noriko Mizumoto's "Re: Japanese Translation" wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> In Japan, Fedora JP Project started up and >> activity is begun. >> >> There are about 20 staff with an activity. >> >> First, we are beginning to translate the document. >> >> Web >> Developer's Guide and Doucumentation guide. >> software po etc. > >Hello, thank you for your contribution. >Since we are still seeking for the most maintainable ways to translate >documetns, >please concentrate on the software translation. > >To avoid any conflicts, every translator is encouraged to declair the >module which you will translate before start. > >> >> Now, when Red Hat Linux was released, >> Japanese Documents were translated in Australia. >> >> This time, does the schedule exist? > >No, there is no set procedure. > >Cheers > >Noriko -- ----.----1----.----2----.----3----.----4----.----5----.----6----.----7 Tadashi Jokagi/Shibuya city mailto:elf at elf.no-ip.org Yokukitana http://elf.no-ip.org/ Yokukitawiki http://elf.no-ip.org/wiki/ Yokukitablog http://elf.no-ip.org/blog/ Fedora JP Project http://www.linuxml.net/ From sarahs at redhat.com Tue Dec 2 06:24:36 2003 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:24:36 +1000 Subject: Japanese Translation In-Reply-To: <3fcc2ecf.4636%ml@elf.no-ip.org> References: <200311301715.hAUHFom2005090@proxy6.impress.co.jp> <1070345293.1983.52.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> <3fcc2ecf.4636%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Message-ID: <3FCC3024.6070209@redhat.com> The software translation refer to the po files for each software packages. The module name for it is "translate". You can find out the current translate status on: http://carolina.mff.cuni.cz/~trmac/fedora-i18n.html It's strongly advised that you declare what you intend to update/translate before starting working on something to avoid overwriting each other's work. Regards, Sarah Tadashi Jokagi wrote: > Hi, > > What thing is software translation? > is, is it ls-bash etc.? > For example, ls, bash, and anaconda binary? > From hpwu at redhat.com Tue Dec 2 06:35:32 2003 From: hpwu at redhat.com (Ben Wu) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:35:32 +1000 Subject: Japanese Translation In-Reply-To: <3fcc2ecf.4636%ml@elf.no-ip.org> References: <200311301715.hAUHFom2005090@proxy6.impress.co.jp> <1070345293.1983.52.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> <3fcc2ecf.4636%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Message-ID: <3FCC32B4.8030708@redhat.com> Hi, The software translation is all about the 'translate' module within i18n.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS repository. You can run the following command to checkout this module to have a look at the whole content of the Fedora software translation. cvs -d :pserver:anonymous at elvis.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS co -P translate The translation status page for Fedora software project is currently under construction, however you can have a look at the following link (created temporarily by one of our community contributor) for the latest status: http://carolina.mff.cuni.cz/~trmac/fedora-i18n.html But in order to avoid any possible file conflicts, if you are interested in contributing your translation to any of these files, please declare it in this mailing list (before the language-specific communication channel being created). Thanks for your effort towards Fedora Project! Ben Tadashi Jokagi wrote: >Hi, > >What thing is software translation? > is, is it ls-bash etc.? >For example, ls, bash, and anaconda binary? > >Noriko Mizumoto's "Re: Japanese Translation" wrote: > > >>>Hi, >>> >>>In Japan, Fedora JP Project started up and >>>activity is begun. >>> >>>There are about 20 staff with an activity. >>> >>>First, we are beginning to translate the document. >>> >>>Web >>>Developer's Guide and Doucumentation guide. >>>software po etc. >>> >>> >>Hello, thank you for your contribution. >>Since we are still seeking for the most maintainable ways to translate >>documetns, >>please concentrate on the software translation. >> >>To avoid any conflicts, every translator is encouraged to declair the >>module which you will translate before start. >> >> >> >>>Now, when Red Hat Linux was released, >>>Japanese Documents were translated in Australia. >>> >>>This time, does the schedule exist? >>> >>> >>No, there is no set procedure. >> >>Cheers >> >>Noriko >> >> From ml at elf.no-ip.org Tue Dec 2 06:48:10 2003 From: ml at elf.no-ip.org (Tadashi Jokagi) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:48:10 +0900 Subject: Japanese Translation In-Reply-To: <3FCC3024.6070209@redhat.com> References: <200311301715.hAUHFom2005090@proxy6.impress.co.jp> <1070345293.1983.52.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> <3fcc2ecf.4636%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <3FCC3024.6070209@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3fcc35aa.4637%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Hi, Sarah Wang's"Re: Japanese Translation" wrote: >The software translation refer to the po files for each software >packages. The module name for it is "translate". You can find out the >current translate status on: > >http://carolina.mff.cuni.cz/~trmac/fedora-i18n.html Oh great! I have i18n account. I am still unidentified in repository. Check later. Regard, -- ----.----1----.----2----.----3----.----4----.----5----.----6----.----7 Tadashi Jokagi/Shibuya city mailto:elf at elf.no-ip.org Yokukitana http://elf.no-ip.org/ Yokukitawiki http://elf.no-ip.org/wiki/ Yokukitablog http://elf.no-ip.org/blog/ Fedora JP Project http://www.linuxml.net/ From sigematu at impress.co.jp Tue Dec 2 15:51:13 2003 From: sigematu at impress.co.jp (Naoki Shigematsu) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:51:13 +0900 Subject: Japanese Translation In-Reply-To: <1070345293.1983.52.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <200311301715.hAUHFom2005090@proxy6.impress.co.jp> <1070345293.1983.52.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200312021551.hB2FpCm2026978@proxy6.impress.co.jp> Hi, > Since we are still seeking for the most maintainable ways to translate > documetns, > please concentrate on the software translation. Yes, I begin to translate the software translation. > To avoid any conflicts, every translator is encouraged to declair the > module which you will translate before start. Yes, Although it is consultation just for a moment, There is a mailig list for the Japanese tlanslater staff in Fedora JP Project. See. http://www.linuxml.net/ Please, subscribe Japan staff-ml. Thanks. -- Naoki Shigematsu Fedora JP Project From tille at soti.org Tue Dec 2 16:15:52 2003 From: tille at soti.org (Machtelt Garrels) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:15:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Dutch Beginner's Guide Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello All, I'm new to this list as a subscriber, but I checked with the archives and saw that you need docs more than reviewers. So I wanted to offer a work in progress, which you can see evolve at http://tille.soti.org/training/fedora/ It's in Dutch, and I was maybe hoping to find volunteers to help me finish this quicker? It's just that I started on a RedHat9 doc on the same lines, but Fedora was released before that one was finished. I want to go quicker this time. Maybe have a complete draft ready by Chrismas to give to my parents or that sort of thing. Anybody interested? Tille. - -- My Penguin, my freedom. http://tille.soti.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/zLq7sIIUbMXbBA8RAqkKAJsFhb4qCNiAe3IDZxANBdIMbY9wxQCfQT7D 6QKPl3jp9p2ybZf3Kx81BFs= =5i4r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Tue Dec 2 18:42:36 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:42:36 +0000 Subject: New ENTITY declarations? In-Reply-To: <1070309409.3058.2479.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1069896075.18667.17.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031127185929.02570f40@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <1070093206.3247.5102.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031130095728.026320e8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <1070309409.3058.2479.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031202183358.02642cd0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 20:10 01/12/2003, Karsten Wade wrote: > >The target file in the common directory is called via a relative path, > > >i.e. it's always in an expected location of off the Fedora docs cvsroot, > > >../fedora-common-xml/fedora-entities.xml. > > > > > > Are all authors expected to work with that relative path? > >I am suggesting one idea for this, and yes under this idea, all authors >would work with that relative path. To work on a document, you would >need to check out the common directories module (of at least one top >level directory), and put it in a specific relative path. The downside of which is that it may not suite all our disk setup's. >This idea is not yet a procedure; we are discussing that. I actually >like the idea of using a URI, will it work within the entity? Yes, since its the parser that expands the entity. ... Any reason to use an entity though? > That >seems to fit into the spirit of things. :) It's structurally different >from a CVS module on a relative path, but it's essentially the same >thing - a remote canonical source you generally only have read access to >and you keep a copy of locally. Rationale (for some), We may not always be connected to the net. Hence, for example, Is a snippet of my docbook stuff. The Edited text refers to the web, the catalog maps it to /sgml/nw/docbook/docbookx.dtd (Similar, using Oasis catalog, for emacs use) >2. Common Entities in DTD (please correct my inaccuracies) Depends on the design modularity you want/need. Some things (names etc) will be very stable. Versions may change fairly quickly. >A. Common entities are added to Fedora specific DTD and served from >fedora.redhat.com. > >B. Authors calling the DTD gain access to the entities, which are listed >XXXXX (manually on the FDP pages? extracted via xml-fu from the DTD?) Don't care? If they nest nicely they'll all be accessible, either from the redhat site, or locally when mapped. Two (local) usages, Within the editor for use (not always needed, but useful) Externally, when validating, say with nsgmls, there the catalog is needed, so perhaps some documentation on using Daniel Vaillard's software as a parser? I know he supports catalogs. >C. Local copies of the DTD are kept, as is common. > >Thoughts? I like it. Its flexible. redhat.com has the masters, they are available over the net if needed, I can copy them to my hard drive if needed. I think that meets most needs. regards DaveP From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Tue Dec 2 18:45:34 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:45:34 +0000 Subject: mistake entity (was: filename) In-Reply-To: <20031202021214.GD1474@redhat.com> References: <3fbdbf3a.4542%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <20031121134821.GA10230@redhat.com> <20031121224542.GE12282@redhat.com> <3fc716f1.2171%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031128180457.02622e28@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <20031202021214.GD1474@redhat.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031202184309.025bb9a0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 02:12 02/12/2003, you wrote: > > Would a net address be easier, > > then we could map it to a local file via a catalog? > > Tammy? > > > >I would rather keep it all in CVS. Everyone has to checkout the module >anyway. Being able to compile without an Internet is nice if you need >to work on the road or elsewhere Which is where the catalog proves its worth. http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Catalogs.html and http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/entity/background/9401.html Norm explains it well at http://wwws.sun.com/software/xml/developers/resolver/article/ regards DaveP From hugo at devin.com.br Tue Dec 2 19:47:17 2003 From: hugo at devin.com.br (Hugo Cisneiros) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:47:17 -0300 Subject: Brazilian Portuguese In-Reply-To: <20031202021425.GF1474@redhat.com> References: <3FC2B9EB.2090409@devin.com.br> <3FC43515.20907@devin.com.br> <3FC5307C.80300@devin.com.br> <20031202021425.GF1474@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3FCCEC45.5000601@devin.com.br> Tammy Fox wrote: >>Hi, I created two lists: >> >>fedora-br >>fedora-i18n-br >> > > Would you like to have @redhat.com mailing lists instead? I can get > them setup for you. Just let me know. Sure! It is *much* better! :) Let us know if we can get it. > Tammy []'s Hugo From lsdr at lsdr.net Tue Dec 2 20:12:04 2003 From: lsdr at lsdr.net (Luiz Rocha) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:12:04 -0200 Subject: Brazilian Portuguese In-Reply-To: <3FCCEC45.5000601@devin.com.br> References: <3FC2B9EB.2090409@devin.com.br> <20031202021425.GF1474@redhat.com> <3FCCEC45.5000601@devin.com.br> Message-ID: <200312021812.11744.lsdr@lsdr.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Sure! It is *much* better! :) Let us know if we can get it. I was about to sign the first one... Let us know when the @redhat.com lists were up. - -- Luiz Rocha -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/zPIZN2+4JlrxCYYRAiUbAKCNLF2Ks7Nu5NRdw/i4tzJLyZ+s+gCgm1QK /vVNIrTE/goG0cRPNdClTY8= =KmUe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tfox at redhat.com Wed Dec 3 16:00:35 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (tfox at redhat.com) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:00:35 -0500 Subject: mistake entity (was: filename) In-Reply-To: <3fcc2188.4630%ml@elf.no-ip.org> References: <3fc716f1.2171%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031128180457.02622e28@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <200311301954.hAUJs0m2012729@proxy6.impress.co.jp> <3fca78bb.2183%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <20031202021318.GE1474@redhat.com> <3fcc2188.4630%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Message-ID: <20031203160035.GE4099@redhat.com> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 02:22:16PM +0900, Tadashi Jokagi wrote: > Hi, > > Tammy Fox's "Re: mistake entity (was: filename)" wrote: > >Are you proposing this for the website or CVS? > > It is website. > As for PHP, CVS is also the same. > However, if the optimal, I think that now is still sufficient as CVS. > For the website, we will probably go with a fedora.redhat.com// or .fedora.redhat.com so the translated versions can be divided into separate virtual servers. For CVS, the translation team has already started to create the structure using a po/ subdirectory in each directory that contains a document. The Makefile will allow you to generate translatable po files from the source DocBook XML files, translate the translated po files back into translated DocBook XML files, and generate HTML output. They are also writing a document about the process. Regards, Tammy From tfox at redhat.com Wed Dec 3 16:01:41 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (tfox at redhat.com) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:01:41 -0500 Subject: Brazilian Portuguese In-Reply-To: <3FCCEC45.5000601@devin.com.br> References: <3FC2B9EB.2090409@devin.com.br> <3FC43515.20907@devin.com.br> <3FC5307C.80300@devin.com.br> <20031202021425.GF1474@redhat.com> <3FCCEC45.5000601@devin.com.br> Message-ID: <20031203160140.GF4099@redhat.com> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 04:47:17PM -0300, Hugo Cisneiros wrote: > Tammy Fox wrote: > >>Hi, I created two lists: > >> > >>fedora-br > >>fedora-i18n-br > >> > > > >Would you like to have @redhat.com mailing lists instead? I can get > >them setup for you. Just let me know. > > Sure! It is *much* better! :) Let us know if we can get it. > > >Tammy > > []'s > Hugo > It looks like Sarah has sent in a request for them. She will let us know when they are ready to use. Tammy From tfox at redhat.com Wed Dec 3 16:04:28 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (tfox at redhat.com) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:04:28 -0500 Subject: Fedora Docs FAQ - update 26 Nov 2003 In-Reply-To: <1069879275.3247.1477.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1069879275.3247.1477.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20031203160428.GG4099@redhat.com> This is a pretty short document, so I can just add it as a page on http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ without having to convert to HTML from DocBook XML if that is OK with you Karsten. Let me know. Tammy On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 12:41:15PM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > Please accept this humble FAQ. Please direct comments to the list, > harsh criticism to me where I shall file it in its proper location. If > we like this (which means no one says they don't like it?), then I'll > propose either XML inclusion in the Doc Guide, or posting on the > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ page. > > FAQ originally proposed in > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00029.html, now brought to you in living email color: > > ## begin FAQ > > Does Fedora Project need writers/editors? > > Yes! Writers are needed right now more then editors, until we have > something to edit. > > > What documents does FP need? > > FP documents are going to be of the tutorial/HOWTO variety. This is > the most useful information we can gather at this time, and it works > well with the distributed project. Currently, the only full-length > guide is the Installation Guide. > > How is the docs project organized? > > Rather loosely right now. Tammy Fox (tfox at redhat.com) is the > project leader. It has been proposed that translators can work in > teams by languages. > > We may want to organize so that every writer has two-editors, and > contributors can work in either or both roles. This makes for a > more cumbersome process, but the quality control is higher. > > > What is the process/procedure for translating documents? > > Details are currently outlined in this email: > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00040.html > > > What are PO files? > > PO files are textual, editable files used in translation. > http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_mono/gettext.html#SEC7 > > > What are some of the tutorial/HOWTOs currently proposed? > > From the mailing list: > > * Installing an SSH server with public/private key authentication > * Configuring and using digital cameras > * Anaconda documentation (in process) > * Security considerings in installation > * Security other (by topic, i.e. filesystems, host, etc.) > * Configuring PDA > > Can I translate the legal notice? > > The legal notice page can be translated, but a statement that the > translation is provided for convenience only and that the English > language version takes precedence must be on the top of the page. > > > What are the tools for writing documents? > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs details how to get the > Documentation Guide source and tools. The toolchain is explained on > that page, with the exception of PO files (see What are PO files?). > > Currently, there is a problem with PDF production (refer to > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=104983). If > you have TeX experience and can help us resolve that one, please > dive in! > > > I have a tutorial in HTML, how do I convert it to DocBook? > > Grab html2db from http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~ppadala/tidy/ . > > > What are some resources for learning DocBook? > > The definitive DocBook reference written and maintained by Norm > Walsh is available at http://docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html . > > A combination tutorial and reference book is available at > http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html . > > Dave Pawson maintains a DocBook FAQ at > http://www.dpawson.co.uk/docbook/ . > > > Can I have CVS write access? > > Eventually, we intend for full contributors to have write access to > CVS, as well as access to other build environments. This is being > worked out across the entire Fedora Project, and is due to be > completed by the end of calendar year 2003. In the meantime, you > can contact the docs project leader Tammy Fox (tfox at redhat.com) with > your changes. > > If you wish to setup your own CVS repository, or join one that > others are using while waiting for the main Fedora Project CVS to be > set up, please see the mail thread starting at: > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00140.html > > > What else is can I do to help? > > Have ideas for admonition graphics? > > ## 30 ## > > -- > Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: +1.831.466.9664 > kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: +1.831.818.9995 > Red Hat Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal Server > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From muzica57 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 23:19:07 2003 From: muzica57 at yahoo.com (Muzica) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:19:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fedora Docs FAQ - update 26 Nov 2003 In-Reply-To: <20031203160428.GG4099@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20031203231907.41549.qmail@web60204.mail.yahoo.com> Kiss my ass !!! a new SuSE user. --- tfox at redhat.com wrote: > This is a pretty short document, so I can just add > it as a page on > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ without > having to convert to > HTML from DocBook XML if that is OK with you > Karsten. > > Let me know. > > Tammy > > On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 12:41:15PM -0800, Karsten > Wade wrote: > > Please accept this humble FAQ. Please direct > comments to the list, > > harsh criticism to me where I shall file it in its > proper location. If > > we like this (which means no one says they don't > like it?), then I'll > > propose either XML inclusion in the Doc Guide, or > posting on the > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ page. > > > > FAQ originally proposed in > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00029.html, > now brought to you in living email color: > > > > ## begin FAQ > > > > Does Fedora Project need writers/editors? > > > > Yes! Writers are needed right now more then > editors, until we have > > something to edit. > > > > > > What documents does FP need? > > > > FP documents are going to be of the > tutorial/HOWTO variety. This is > > the most useful information we can gather at > this time, and it works > > well with the distributed project. Currently, > the only full-length > > guide is the Installation Guide. > > > > How is the docs project organized? > > > > Rather loosely right now. Tammy Fox > (tfox at redhat.com) is the > > project leader. It has been proposed that > translators can work in > > teams by languages. > > > > We may want to organize so that every writer has > two-editors, and > > contributors can work in either or both roles. > This makes for a > > more cumbersome process, but the quality control > is higher. > > > > > > What is the process/procedure for translating > documents? > > > > Details are currently outlined in this email: > > > > > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00040.html > > > > > > What are PO files? > > > > PO files are textual, editable files used in > translation. > > > http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_mono/gettext.html#SEC7 > > > > > > What are some of the tutorial/HOWTOs currently > proposed? > > > > From the mailing list: > > > > * Installing an SSH server with public/private > key authentication > > * Configuring and using digital cameras > > * Anaconda documentation (in process) > > * Security considerings in installation > > * Security other (by topic, i.e. filesystems, > host, etc.) > > * Configuring PDA > > > > Can I translate the legal notice? > > > > The legal notice page can be translated, but a > statement that the > > translation is provided for convenience only and > that the English > > language version takes precedence must be on the > top of the page. > > > > > > What are the tools for writing documents? > > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs details > how to get the > > Documentation Guide source and tools. The > toolchain is explained on > > that page, with the exception of PO files (see > What are PO files?). > > > > Currently, there is a problem with PDF > production (refer to > > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=104983). > If > > you have TeX experience and can help us resolve > that one, please > > dive in! > > > > > > I have a tutorial in HTML, how do I convert it to > DocBook? > > > > Grab html2db from > http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~ppadala/tidy/ . > > > > > > What are some resources for learning DocBook? > > > > The definitive DocBook reference written and > maintained by Norm > > Walsh is available at > http://docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html . > > > > A combination tutorial and reference book is > available at > > http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html . > > > > Dave Pawson maintains a DocBook FAQ at > > http://www.dpawson.co.uk/docbook/ . > > > > > > Can I have CVS write access? > > > > Eventually, we intend for full contributors to > have write access to > > CVS, as well as access to other build > environments. This is being > > worked out across the entire Fedora Project, and > is due to be > > completed by the end of calendar year 2003. In > the meantime, you > > can contact the docs project leader Tammy Fox > (tfox at redhat.com) with > > your changes. > > > > If you wish to setup your own CVS repository, or > join one that > > others are using while waiting for the main > Fedora Project CVS to be > > set up, please see the mail thread starting at: > > > > > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00140.html > > > > > > What else is can I do to help? > > > > Have ideas for admonition graphics? > > > > ## 30 ## > > > > -- > > Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: > +1.831.466.9664 > > kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: > +1.831.818.9995 > > Red Hat Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal > Server > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > -- -- -- -- -- > > > > > > -- > > fedora-docs-list mailing list > > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From sigematu at impress.co.jp Thu Dec 4 11:01:10 2003 From: sigematu at impress.co.jp (Naoki Shigematsu) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:01:10 +0900 Subject: mistake entity (was: filename) References: <3fc716f1.2171%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031128180457.02622e28@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <200311301954.hAUJs0m2012729@proxy6.impress.co.jp> <3fca78bb.2183%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <20031202021318.GE1474@redhat.com> <3fcc2188.4630%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <20031203160035.GE4099@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3FCF13F6.135723E8@impress.co.jp> Hi, > For the website, we will probably go with a fedora.redhat.com// > or .fedora.redhat.com so the translated versions can be divided > into separate virtual servers. Nice! About what time can this be used? Thanks. -- Naoki Shigematsu Fedora JP Project From paul at frields.com Thu Dec 4 12:39:27 2003 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 07:39:27 -0500 Subject: Reminder Message-ID: <1070541567.3666.1.camel@london.east.gov> Wow, who would have thought we'd have to remember not to feed the trolls on the *docs-list* of all places! :-D Happy holidays, everybody. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From ml at elf.no-ip.org Thu Dec 4 13:13:34 2003 From: ml at elf.no-ip.org (Tadashi Jokagi) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:13:34 +0900 Subject: mistake entity (was: filename) In-Reply-To: <20031203160035.GE4099@redhat.com> References: <200311301954.hAUJs0m2012729@proxy6.impress.co.jp> <3fca78bb.2183%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <20031202021318.GE1474@redhat.com> <3fcc2188.4630%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <20031203160035.GE4099@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3fcf32fe.2205%ml@elf.no-ip.org> ??????????? tfox at redhat.com???<20031203160035.GE4099 at redhat.com>?? >For the website, we will probably go with a fedora.redhat.com// >or .fedora.redhat.com so the translated versions can be divided >into separate virtual servers. Nice!! >For CVS, the translation team has already started to create the >structure using a po/ subdirectory in each directory that contains a >document. The Makefile will allow you to generate translatable po >files from the source DocBook XML files, translate the translated po >files back into translated DocBook XML files, and generate HTML >output. They are also writing a document about the process. I have seldom understood. I will check what was completed. -- ----.----1----.----2----.----3----.----4----.----5----.----6----.----7 Tadashi Jokagi/Shibuya city mailto:elf at elf.no-ip.org Yokukitana http://elf.no-ip.org/ Yokukitawiki http://elf.no-ip.org/wiki/ Yokukitablog http://elf.no-ip.org/blog/ From bfox at redhat.com Thu Dec 4 22:17:27 2003 From: bfox at redhat.com (Brent Fox) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:17:27 -0500 Subject: Fedora Docs FAQ - update 26 Nov 2003 In-Reply-To: <20031203231907.41549.qmail@web60204.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031203231907.41549.qmail@web60204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1070576247.12908.172.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 18:19, Muzica wrote: > Kiss my ass !!! > > a new SuSE user. Abusive language isn't acceptable. As list admin, I've unsubscribed this user. Cheers, Brent > > > > --- tfox at redhat.com wrote: > > This is a pretty short document, so I can just add > > it as a page on > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ without > > having to convert to > > HTML from DocBook XML if that is OK with you > > Karsten. > > > > Let me know. > > > > Tammy > > > > On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 12:41:15PM -0800, Karsten > > Wade wrote: > > > Please accept this humble FAQ. Please direct > > comments to the list, > > > harsh criticism to me where I shall file it in its > > proper location. If > > > we like this (which means no one says they don't > > like it?), then I'll > > > propose either XML inclusion in the Doc Guide, or > > posting on the > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ page. > > > > > > FAQ originally proposed in > > > > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00029.html, > > now brought to you in living email color: > > > > > > ## begin FAQ > > > > > > Does Fedora Project need writers/editors? > > > > > > Yes! Writers are needed right now more then > > editors, until we have > > > something to edit. > > > > > > > > > What documents does FP need? > > > > > > FP documents are going to be of the > > tutorial/HOWTO variety. This is > > > the most useful information we can gather at > > this time, and it works > > > well with the distributed project. Currently, > > the only full-length > > > guide is the Installation Guide. > > > > > > How is the docs project organized? > > > > > > Rather loosely right now. Tammy Fox > > (tfox at redhat.com) is the > > > project leader. It has been proposed that > > translators can work in > > > teams by languages. > > > > > > We may want to organize so that every writer has > > two-editors, and > > > contributors can work in either or both roles. > > This makes for a > > > more cumbersome process, but the quality control > > is higher. > > > > > > > > > What is the process/procedure for translating > > documents? > > > > > > Details are currently outlined in this email: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00040.html > > > > > > > > > What are PO files? > > > > > > PO files are textual, editable files used in > > translation. > > > > > > http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_mono/gettext.html#SEC7 > > > > > > > > > What are some of the tutorial/HOWTOs currently > > proposed? > > > > > > From the mailing list: > > > > > > * Installing an SSH server with public/private > > key authentication > > > * Configuring and using digital cameras > > > * Anaconda documentation (in process) > > > * Security considerings in installation > > > * Security other (by topic, i.e. filesystems, > > host, etc.) > > > * Configuring PDA > > > > > > Can I translate the legal notice? > > > > > > The legal notice page can be translated, but a > > statement that the > > > translation is provided for convenience only and > > that the English > > > language version takes precedence must be on the > > top of the page. > > > > > > > > > What are the tools for writing documents? > > > > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs details > > how to get the > > > Documentation Guide source and tools. The > > toolchain is explained on > > > that page, with the exception of PO files (see > > What are PO files?). > > > > > > Currently, there is a problem with PDF > > production (refer to > > > > > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=104983). > > If > > > you have TeX experience and can help us resolve > > that one, please > > > dive in! > > > > > > > > > I have a tutorial in HTML, how do I convert it to > > DocBook? > > > > > > Grab html2db from > > http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~ppadala/tidy/ . > > > > > > > > > What are some resources for learning DocBook? > > > > > > The definitive DocBook reference written and > > maintained by Norm > > > Walsh is available at > > http://docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html . > > > > > > A combination tutorial and reference book is > > available at > > > http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html . > > > > > > Dave Pawson maintains a DocBook FAQ at > > > http://www.dpawson.co.uk/docbook/ . > > > > > > > > > Can I have CVS write access? > > > > > > Eventually, we intend for full contributors to > > have write access to > > > CVS, as well as access to other build > > environments. This is being > > > worked out across the entire Fedora Project, and > > is due to be > > > completed by the end of calendar year 2003. In > > the meantime, you > > > can contact the docs project leader Tammy Fox > > (tfox at redhat.com) with > > > your changes. > > > > > > If you wish to setup your own CVS repository, or > > join one that > > > others are using while waiting for the main > > Fedora Project CVS to be > > > set up, please see the mail thread starting at: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00140.html > > > > > > > > > What else is can I do to help? > > > > > > Have ideas for admonition graphics? > > > > > > ## 30 ## > > > > > > -- > > > Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: > > +1.831.466.9664 > > > kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: > > +1.831.818.9995 > > > Red Hat Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal > > Server > > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > > -- -- -- -- -- > > > > > > > > > -- > > > fedora-docs-list mailing list > > > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > > > > > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > > > > -- > > fedora-docs-list mailing list > > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > http://companion.yahoo.com/ > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From arau at schleese.com Thu Dec 4 22:21:29 2003 From: arau at schleese.com (Alexander Rau (work)) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 17:21:29 -0500 Subject: Fedora Docs FAQ - update 26 Nov 2003 In-Reply-To: <1070576247.12908.172.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: I don't think he will be back anyways!!! AR -----Original Message----- From: fedora-docs-list-admin at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-docs-list-admin at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Brent Fox Sent: 04 December 2003 17:17 To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com Subject: Re: Fedora Docs FAQ - update 26 Nov 2003 On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 18:19, Muzica wrote: > Kiss my ass !!! > > a new SuSE user. Abusive language isn't acceptable. As list admin, I've unsubscribed this user. Cheers, Brent > > > > --- tfox at redhat.com wrote: > > This is a pretty short document, so I can just add > > it as a page on > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ without > > having to convert to > > HTML from DocBook XML if that is OK with you > > Karsten. > > > > Let me know. > > > > Tammy > > > > On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 12:41:15PM -0800, Karsten > > Wade wrote: > > > Please accept this humble FAQ. Please direct > > comments to the list, > > > harsh criticism to me where I shall file it in its > > proper location. If > > > we like this (which means no one says they don't > > like it?), then I'll > > > propose either XML inclusion in the Doc Guide, or > > posting on the > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ page. > > > > > > FAQ originally proposed in > > > > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00029.html, > > now brought to you in living email color: > > > > > > ## begin FAQ > > > > > > Does Fedora Project need writers/editors? > > > > > > Yes! Writers are needed right now more then > > editors, until we have > > > something to edit. > > > > > > > > > What documents does FP need? > > > > > > FP documents are going to be of the > > tutorial/HOWTO variety. This is > > > the most useful information we can gather at > > this time, and it works > > > well with the distributed project. Currently, > > the only full-length > > > guide is the Installation Guide. > > > > > > How is the docs project organized? > > > > > > Rather loosely right now. Tammy Fox > > (tfox at redhat.com) is the > > > project leader. It has been proposed that > > translators can work in > > > teams by languages. > > > > > > We may want to organize so that every writer has > > two-editors, and > > > contributors can work in either or both roles. > > This makes for a > > > more cumbersome process, but the quality control > > is higher. > > > > > > > > > What is the process/procedure for translating > > documents? > > > > > > Details are currently outlined in this email: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00040.html > > > > > > > > > What are PO files? > > > > > > PO files are textual, editable files used in > > translation. > > > > > > http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_mono/gettext.html#SEC7 > > > > > > > > > What are some of the tutorial/HOWTOs currently > > proposed? > > > > > > From the mailing list: > > > > > > * Installing an SSH server with public/private > > key authentication > > > * Configuring and using digital cameras > > > * Anaconda documentation (in process) > > > * Security considerings in installation > > > * Security other (by topic, i.e. filesystems, > > host, etc.) > > > * Configuring PDA > > > > > > Can I translate the legal notice? > > > > > > The legal notice page can be translated, but a > > statement that the > > > translation is provided for convenience only and > > that the English > > > language version takes precedence must be on the > > top of the page. > > > > > > > > > What are the tools for writing documents? > > > > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs details > > how to get the > > > Documentation Guide source and tools. The > > toolchain is explained on > > > that page, with the exception of PO files (see > > What are PO files?). > > > > > > Currently, there is a problem with PDF > > production (refer to > > > > > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=104983). > > If > > > you have TeX experience and can help us resolve > > that one, please > > > dive in! > > > > > > > > > I have a tutorial in HTML, how do I convert it to > > DocBook? > > > > > > Grab html2db from > > http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~ppadala/tidy/ . > > > > > > > > > What are some resources for learning DocBook? > > > > > > The definitive DocBook reference written and > > maintained by Norm > > > Walsh is available at > > http://docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html . > > > > > > A combination tutorial and reference book is > > available at > > > http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html . > > > > > > Dave Pawson maintains a DocBook FAQ at > > > http://www.dpawson.co.uk/docbook/ . > > > > > > > > > Can I have CVS write access? > > > > > > Eventually, we intend for full contributors to > > have write access to > > > CVS, as well as access to other build > > environments. This is being > > > worked out across the entire Fedora Project, and > > is due to be > > > completed by the end of calendar year 2003. In > > the meantime, you > > > can contact the docs project leader Tammy Fox > > (tfox at redhat.com) with > > > your changes. > > > > > > If you wish to setup your own CVS repository, or > > join one that > > > others are using while waiting for the main > > Fedora Project CVS to be > > > set up, please see the mail thread starting at: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00140.html > > > > > > > > > What else is can I do to help? > > > > > > Have ideas for admonition graphics? > > > > > > ## 30 ## > > > > > > -- > > > Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: > > +1.831.466.9664 > > > kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: > > +1.831.818.9995 > > > Red Hat Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal > > Server > > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > > -- -- -- -- -- > > > > > > > > > -- > > > fedora-docs-list mailing list > > > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > > > > > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > > > > -- > > fedora-docs-list mailing list > > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > http://companion.yahoo.com/ > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From noriko at redhat.com Fri Dec 5 00:48:56 2003 From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto) Date: 05 Dec 2003 10:48:56 +1000 Subject: Software translation steps Message-ID: <1070585336.1085.128.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> Hi all, Please let me remind the steps for software translation. Go to; http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00040.html Before you can start; - Checkout translate/ directory to update. - You can check the status at: http://carolina.mff.cuni.cz/~trmac/fedora-i18n.html - Declair the po file_name which you are going to start at this ML, so that other translators would not touch. "eg, I will start the file, translate/anaconda/anaconda-po/ja.po. Pls let me know if someone already is working on." - Commit the file. $cvs commit -m '' file_name.po - Advise your completion at this ML. Note; You have to checkout just before starting translation, the files have been kept updating. Please commit the file frequently even if you still are working on it, especially for larger file. (eg, cvs commit -m 'translating...' file_name.po) Because engineer may touch the file and commit while you are working, and then you will have conflict. You can commit as much as you like. For this reason, it is recommended that you will declair only one file for translation at a time. Cheers, Noriko -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ml at elf.no-ip.org Fri Dec 5 01:50:09 2003 From: ml at elf.no-ip.org (Tadashi Jokagi) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:50:09 +0900 Subject: mistake entity (was: filename) In-Reply-To: <20031203160035.GE4099@redhat.com> References: <200311301954.hAUJs0m2012729@proxy6.impress.co.jp> <3fca78bb.2183%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <20031202021318.GE1474@redhat.com> <3fcc2188.4630%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <20031203160035.GE4099@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3fcfe451.4672%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Hi, tfox at redhat.com's "Re: mistake entity (was: filename)" wrote: >For CVS, the translation team has already started to create the >structure using a po/ subdirectory in each directory that contains a (snip) Is this portion mail subject of "Software translation steps"? I do not understand the meaning which uses po for translation of a docbook document. What do I misunderstand? -- ----.----1----.----2----.----3----.----4----.----5----.----6----.----7 Tadashi Jokagi/Shibuya city mailto:elf at elf.no-ip.org Yokukitana http://elf.no-ip.org/ Yokukitawiki http://elf.no-ip.org/wiki/ Yokukitablog http://elf.no-ip.org/blog/ Fedora JP Project http://www.linuxml.net/ From sigematu at impress.co.jp Fri Dec 5 03:21:00 2003 From: sigematu at impress.co.jp (Naoki Shigematsu) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 12:21:00 +0900 Subject: mistake entity (was: filename) In-Reply-To: <3fcfe451.4672%ml@elf.no-ip.org> References: <20031203160035.GE4099@redhat.com> <3fcfe451.4672%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Message-ID: <200312050321.hB53Kxm2014845@proxy6.impress.co.jp> Hi, On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:50:09 +0900 Tadashi Jokagi wrote: > Is this portion mail subject of "Software translation steps"? > I do not understand the meaning which uses po for translation of a docbook document. > What do I misunderstand? This mail is described about _Software_ translation, not a docbook document. -- Naoki Shigematsu Impress Corporation 20 Sanbancho, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 102-0075, Japan Tel: +81-3-5275-9017 Fax: +81-3-5275-9047 Uri: http://www.impress.co.jp/ From ml at elf.no-ip.org Fri Dec 5 04:52:02 2003 From: ml at elf.no-ip.org (Tadashi Jokagi) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:52:02 +0900 Subject: mistake entity (was: filename) In-Reply-To: <200312050321.hB53Kxm2014845@proxy6.impress.co.jp> References: <20031203160035.GE4099@redhat.com> <3fcfe451.4672%ml@elf.no-ip.org> <200312050321.hB53Kxm2014845@proxy6.impress.co.jp> Message-ID: <3fd00ef2.4681%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Hi, Naoki Shigematsu????Re: mistake entity (was: filename)??? >This mail is described about _Software_ translation, not a docbook document. I understood. It was the talk of docbook from the first. Since po had come there, it got confused. My understanding was right if it was the talk of software. -- ----.----1----.----2----.----3----.----4----.----5----.----6----.----7 Tadashi Jokagi/Shibuya city mailto:elf at elf.no-ip.org Yokukitana http://elf.no-ip.org/ Yokukitawiki http://elf.no-ip.org/wiki/ Yokukitablog http://elf.no-ip.org/blog/ Fedora JP Project http://www.linuxml.net/ From lsdr at lsdr.net Fri Dec 5 05:20:37 2003 From: lsdr at lsdr.net (Luiz Rocha) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 03:20:37 -0200 Subject: Fedora Docs FAQ - update 26 Nov 2003 In-Reply-To: <1070576247.12908.172.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> References: <20031203231907.41549.qmail@web60204.mail.yahoo.com> <1070576247.12908.172.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200312050320.37815.lsdr@lsdr.net> > > a new SuSE user. > > Abusive language isn't acceptable. As list admin, I've unsubscribed > this user. I agree. I really got offended by the SuSE stuff... :) Just joking, just joking. -- Luiz Rocha From baldrick at terra.es Fri Dec 5 08:01:37 2003 From: baldrick at terra.es (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:01:37 +0100 Subject: Software translation steps In-Reply-To: <1070585336.1085.128.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1070585336.1085.128.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1070611297.724.140.camel@deimos> Hi all, On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 01:48, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > Hi all, > > Please let me remind the steps for software translation. > - Declair the po file_name which you are going to start at this ML, so > that other translators would not touch. Do we have to do that? This could be a mess if I miss a message for some reason, and lot of traffic in which most of the members of the list will no be interested. Moreover Fedora's Translation Project web page states: "The place to discuss the translation of software is fedora-devel-list. The place to discuss the translation of documentation is fedora-docs-list." Is this the right list to post such notes about software translation? Couldn't we create a i18n specific list? And wouldn't it be better to create language translation teams so each team can organize themselves and make sure no double efforts are made? > "eg, I will start the file, translate/anaconda/anaconda-po/ja.po. > Pls let me know if someone already is working on." > - Commit the file. $cvs commit -m '' file_name.po > - Advise your completion at this ML. > > Note; > You have to checkout just before starting translation, the files have > been kept updating. > Please commit the file frequently even if you still are working on it, > especially for larger file. > (eg, cvs commit -m 'translating...' file_name.po) > Because engineer may touch the file and commit while you are working, > and then you will have conflict. I am no expert but, aren't there tools to do this? like intltool?merge, intltool-update, etc? Regards, Josep From gose at mcs.anl.gov Fri Dec 5 22:36:42 2003 From: gose at mcs.anl.gov (Scott Gose) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:36:42 -0600 Subject: html doc rendering problem via apache Message-ID: <20031205223642.GD25765@mcs.anl.gov> Hello, When viewing the documentation-guide's html with a browser, it renders fine. But when I move that directory behind a URL served up by Apache, it doesn't. A screenshot of this behavior is here: http://www.gose.org/1.png It appears that Apache is not able to render some of the characters as noted by the black boxes that appear. Any ideas? -- Scott Gose gose at mcs.anl.gov From pedro.pinto at anlorbel.pt Sat Dec 6 10:52:52 2003 From: pedro.pinto at anlorbel.pt (Pedro Pinto) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:52:52 -0000 Subject: Subscribe fedora-docs-list-request Message-ID: <0D0135A7F57CD41194B700D0B78EFA15146D6C@ntserver01> From qralston+ml.redhat-fedora-docs at andrew.cmu.edu Sat Dec 6 19:32:44 2003 From: qralston+ml.redhat-fedora-docs at andrew.cmu.edu (James Ralston) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 14:32:44 -0500 Subject: nxml-mode for Emacs In-Reply-To: <1069454692.6888.0.camel@bad.jf.intel.com> References: <20031117152959.GH5686@redhat.com> <1069454692.6888.0.camel@bad.jf.intel.com> Message-ID: <4350000.1070739163@pcmy.sei.cmu.edu> On 2003-11-21 at 14:44:53-0800 "Taylor, ForrestX" wrote: > On Mon, 2003-11-17 at 07:29, Tim Waugh wrote: > > > ftp://people.redhat.com/twaugh/docbook/nxml-mode > > So, how does on start using nXML mode after installing the rpm? After you install the RPM, visiting any file that ends in ".xhtml" should switch to nXML mode (unless the file explicitly sets a different mode). If not, you can explicitly call M-x nxml-mode. There is a cursory Info document ("nXML Mode") that describes most of the features. You can use the Custom feature to experiment with different faces. At the moment, I'm using this: (custom-set-variables ;; custom-set-variables was added by Custom -- don't edit or cut/paste it! ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance. ) (custom-set-faces ;; custom-set-faces was added by Custom -- don't edit or cut/paste it! ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance. '(mode-line ((((type x w32 mac) (class color)) (:background "navy" :foreground "yellow" :box (:line-width -1 :style released-button))))) '(nxml-comment-content-face ((t (:foreground "yellow4")))) '(nxml-delimited-data-face ((t (:foreground "lime green")))) '(nxml-delimiter-face ((t (:foreground "grey")))) '(nxml-element-local-name-face ((t (:inherit nxml-name-face :foreground "medium turquoise")))) '(nxml-name-face ((t (:foreground "rosy brown")))) '(nxml-tag-slash-face ((t (:inherit nxml-name-face :foreground "grey"))))) (Although this probably won't look decent unless you use whitish text on a blackish background.) -- James Ralston, Information Technology Software Engineering Institute Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA From lsdr at lsdr.net Sun Dec 7 22:28:12 2003 From: lsdr at lsdr.net (Luiz Rocha) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:28:12 -0200 Subject: html doc rendering problem via apache In-Reply-To: <20031205223642.GD25765@mcs.anl.gov> References: <20031205223642.GD25765@mcs.anl.gov> Message-ID: <200312072028.12795.lsdr@lsdr.net> > It appears that Apache is not able to render some of the characters as > noted by the black boxes that appear. Any ideas? I tried to reproduce the problem at home, but here everything went well. It appears that your either using a different encoding while building the docs or serving your pages. -- Luiz Rocha From sarahs at redhat.com Sun Dec 7 23:29:55 2003 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:29:55 +1000 Subject: Software translation steps In-Reply-To: <1070611297.724.140.camel@deimos> References: <1070585336.1085.128.camel@noriko.brisbane.redhat.com> <1070611297.724.140.camel@deimos> Message-ID: <3FD3B7F3.3070300@redhat.com> Josep Puigdemont wrote: > Hi all, > > On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 01:48, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > >>Hi all, >> >>Please let me remind the steps for software translation. > > >>- Declair the po file_name which you are going to start at this ML, so >>that other translators would not touch. > > > Do we have to do that? This could be a mess if I miss a message for some > reason, and lot of traffic in which most of the members of the list will > no be interested. For the moment it's advisable until better procedures have been employed by your language team. > Moreover Fedora's Translation Project web page states: > > "The place to discuss the translation of software is fedora-devel-list. > The place to discuss the translation of documentation is > fedora-docs-list." > > Is this the right list to post such notes about software translation? > Couldn't we create a i18n specific list? > And wouldn't it be better to create language translation teams so each > team can organize themselves and make sure no double efforts are made? > Yes. The mailing lists for each language is a much better option. We have requested them to be set up. Once done, I will update the webpage information. > > >> "eg, I will start the file, translate/anaconda/anaconda-po/ja.po. >>Pls let me know if someone already is working on." >>- Commit the file. $cvs commit -m '' file_name.po >>- Advise your completion at this ML. >> >>Note; >>You have to checkout just before starting translation, the files have >>been kept updating. >>Please commit the file frequently even if you still are working on it, >>especially for larger file. >>(eg, cvs commit -m 'translating...' file_name.po) >>Because engineer may touch the file and commit while you are working, >>and then you will have conflict. > > > I am no expert but, aren't there tools to do this? like intltool?merge, > intltool-update, etc? > What Noriko meant was that if you were working on some large file that need days even weeks work, it's better to commit it regularly rather than do it when finished because the po files may be auto updated during this period thus causing conflict when you try to commit later. Although there are ways to fix conflict situations it's still better to be avoid. Sarah > > Regards, > Josep > > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From sarahs at redhat.com Tue Dec 9 01:39:12 2003 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 11:39:12 +1000 Subject: new mailing lists for translators Message-ID: <3FD527C0.1080708@redhat.com> Hi all, We have set up some new mailing lists to discuss translation related issues. Please subscribe them as you see fit :) The i18n-list at redhat.com mailing list will be decimated. I encourage all current subscribers move to fedora-trans-list at redhat.com: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list This list will be the main place to discuss all fedora translation related issues, including software and documentation. This list will also be used to post any queries, instructions, tips, and updates. The following lists are language specific. They are used by each language group to discuss language specific activities: German: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-de Spanish: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-es French: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-fr Italian: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-it Brazilian Portuguese: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-pt_br Japanese: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-ja Korean: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-ko Simplified Chinese: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-zh_cn Traditional Chinese: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-zh_tw Please note, only tier one languages are catered for at the moment. As the community grows, we will add more language groups in the future. If you feel that your language group is quite sizable right now, please let me know, I will see if we can set up a mailing list for you. Thanks for everyone's participation, and happy translating! Sarah From sigematu at impress.co.jp Tue Dec 9 07:56:03 2003 From: sigematu at impress.co.jp (Naoki Shigematsu) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:56:03 +0900 Subject: new mailing lists for translators References: <3FD527C0.1080708@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3FD58013.11706030@impress.co.jp> Hi Sarah, Sarah Wang wrote: > > We have set up some new mailing lists to discuss translation related > issues. Please subscribe them as you see fit :) : > Japanese: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-ja Thanks. Is there any schedule which offers a search service? I don't know whether Japanese Search can be performed. -- Naoki Shigematsu Impress Corporation 20 Sanbancho, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 102-0075, Japan Tel: +81-3-5275-9017 Fax: +81-3-5275-9047 Uri: http://www.impress.co.jp/ From gose at mcs.anl.gov Wed Dec 10 03:33:45 2003 From: gose at mcs.anl.gov (Scott Gose) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 21:33:45 -0600 Subject: html doc rendering problem via apache In-Reply-To: <20031205223642.GD25765@mcs.anl.gov> References: <20031205223642.GD25765@mcs.anl.gov> Message-ID: <20031210033345.GB25890@mcs.anl.gov> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 04:36:42PM -0600, Scott Gose wrote: > Hello, > > When viewing the documentation-guide's html with a browser, it renders > fine. But when I move that directory behind a URL served up by Apache, > it doesn't. A screenshot of this behavior is here: > > http://www.gose.org/1.png I have been able to reproduce this behavior now on 3 different Fedora Core 1 machines. > It appears that Apache is not able to render some of the characters as > noted by the black boxes that appear. Any ideas? I'm not sure if it is apache or simply a missing package. If I move the documentation-guide-en/ directory behind a rh 7.3 machine serving it up by apache there, it renders correctly. Could someone else verify that it works for them, too? (Thanks Luiz!) If it does, could you send me directly your 'rpm -qa' package list? Thanks. > -- > Scott Gose > gose at mcs.anl.gov > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Scott Gose gose at mcs.anl.gov From sarahs at redhat.com Wed Dec 10 04:07:26 2003 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:07:26 +1000 Subject: new mailing lists for translators In-Reply-To: <3FD58013.11706030@impress.co.jp> References: <3FD527C0.1080708@redhat.com> <3FD58013.11706030@impress.co.jp> Message-ID: <3FD69BFE.8040104@redhat.com> Naoki Shigematsu ??: > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah Wang wrote: > >>We have set up some new mailing lists to discuss translation related >>issues. Please subscribe them as you see fit :) > > : > >>Japanese: >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-ja > > > Thanks. > > Is there any schedule which offers a search service? > I don't know whether Japanese Search can be performed. > I think if you can input Japanese you would be able to search the archive in Japanese. Why not send a test message in Japanese to the list and then try to search the archive? Sarah From sigematu at impress.co.jp Wed Dec 10 06:04:39 2003 From: sigematu at impress.co.jp (Naoki Shigematsu) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:04:39 +0900 Subject: new mailing lists for translators References: <3FD527C0.1080708@redhat.com> <3FD58013.11706030@impress.co.jp> <3FD69BFE.8040104@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3FD6B777.BE5AF9FC@impress.co.jp> Hi, > I think if you can input Japanese you would be able to search the > archive in Japanese. Why not send a test message in Japanese to the list > and then try to search the archive? Sorry. An archive is displayed in Japanese. Where is search possible? It is not displayed on this list. https://listman.redhat.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi -- Naoki Shigematsu Impress Corporation 20 Sanbancho, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 102-0075, Japan Tel: +81-3-5275-9017 Fax: +81-3-5275-9047 Uri: http://www.impress.co.jp/ From sarahs at redhat.com Wed Dec 10 06:15:34 2003 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:15:34 +1000 Subject: new mailing lists for translators In-Reply-To: <3FD6B777.BE5AF9FC@impress.co.jp> References: <3FD527C0.1080708@redhat.com> <3FD58013.11706030@impress.co.jp> <3FD69BFE.8040104@redhat.com> <3FD6B777.BE5AF9FC@impress.co.jp> Message-ID: <3FD6BA06.9010709@redhat.com> I see what you mean now. It looks like we can't search CJK characters right now. Perhaps you would like to raise it to the fedora-devel-list? Sarah Naoki Shigematsu ??: > Hi, > > >>I think if you can input Japanese you would be able to search the >>archive in Japanese. Why not send a test message in Japanese to the list >>and then try to search the archive? > > > Sorry. > > An archive is displayed in Japanese. > Where is search possible? > > It is not displayed on this list. > https://listman.redhat.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi > From smoogen at lanl.gov Wed Dec 10 16:04:29 2003 From: smoogen at lanl.gov (Stephen Smoogen) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:04:29 -0700 Subject: html doc rendering problem via apache In-Reply-To: <20031205223642.GD25765@mcs.anl.gov> References: <20031205223642.GD25765@mcs.anl.gov> Message-ID: <1071072269.12539.5.camel@smoogen1.lanl.gov> Apache wouldnt do any sort of 'rendering'. It could be that apache is 'dropping' the characters or is giving a 'default language' that isnt correct for those codes. Try the following: Try a different default browser Look at the HTML source in the browser. See if the © is there. Then also look at what the page info says (Mozilla -> View -> Page Info) I am going to bet you are seeing the code delivered by Apache as UTF-8 and the base page as ISO-8859-1. Changing Apache to have a default encoding of something other than UTF-8 may help. On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 15:36, Scott Gose wrote: > Hello, > > When viewing the documentation-guide's html with a browser, it renders > fine. But when I move that directory behind a URL served up by Apache, > it doesn't. A screenshot of this behavior is here: > > http://www.gose.org/1.png > > It appears that Apache is not able to render some of the characters as > noted by the black boxes that appear. Any ideas? -- Stephen John Smoogen smoogen at lanl.gov Los Alamos National Lab CCN-5 Sched 5/40 PH: 4-0645 Ta-03 SM-1498 MailStop B255 DP 10S Los Alamos, NM 87545 -- So shines a good deed in a weary world. = Willy Wonka -- From gose at mcs.anl.gov Wed Dec 10 16:15:34 2003 From: gose at mcs.anl.gov (Scott Gose) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:15:34 -0600 Subject: html doc rendering problem via apache In-Reply-To: <1071072269.12539.5.camel@smoogen1.lanl.gov> References: <20031205223642.GD25765@mcs.anl.gov> <1071072269.12539.5.camel@smoogen1.lanl.gov> Message-ID: <20031210161534.GA29408@mcs.anl.gov> In my /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf file, I made the following changes: # AddDefaultCharset UTF-8 AddDefaultCharset ISO-8859-1 And it worked! Thank you _so_ much! :-) I guess my next question is... is this a bug or should I have known to do this? On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 09:04:29AM -0700, Stephen Smoogen wrote: > Apache wouldnt do any sort of 'rendering'. It could be that apache is > 'dropping' the characters or is giving a 'default language' that isnt > correct for those codes. > > Try the following: > Try a different default browser > Look at the HTML source in the browser. > See if the © is there. Then also look at what the page info says > (Mozilla -> View -> Page Info) > > I am going to bet you are seeing the code delivered by Apache as UTF-8 > and the base page as ISO-8859-1. Changing Apache to have a default > encoding of something other than UTF-8 may help. > > On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 15:36, Scott Gose wrote: > > Hello, > > > > When viewing the documentation-guide's html with a browser, it renders > > fine. But when I move that directory behind a URL served up by Apache, > > it doesn't. A screenshot of this behavior is here: > > > > http://www.gose.org/1.png > > > > It appears that Apache is not able to render some of the characters as > > noted by the black boxes that appear. Any ideas? > -- > Stephen John Smoogen smoogen at lanl.gov > Los Alamos National Lab CCN-5 Sched 5/40 PH: 4-0645 > Ta-03 SM-1498 MailStop B255 DP 10S Los Alamos, NM 87545 > -- So shines a good deed in a weary world. = Willy Wonka -- > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Scott Gose gose at mcs.anl.gov From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Wed Dec 10 17:11:18 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:11:18 +0000 Subject: html doc rendering problem via apache In-Reply-To: <20031210033345.GB25890@mcs.anl.gov> References: <20031205223642.GD25765@mcs.anl.gov> <20031210033345.GB25890@mcs.anl.gov> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031210171047.02693638@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 03:33 10/12/2003, Scott Gose wrote: >On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 04:36:42PM -0600, Scott Gose wrote: > > Hello, > > > > When viewing the documentation-guide's html with a browser, it renders > > fine. But when I move that directory behind a URL served up by Apache, > > it doesn't. A screenshot of this behavior is here: > > > > http://www.gose.org/1.png > >I have been able to reproduce this behavior now on 3 different Fedora >Core 1 machines. > > > It appears that Apache is not able to render some of the characters as > > noted by the black boxes that appear. Any ideas? Is the file being served up correctly, with the right encoding? regards DaveP From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Wed Dec 10 17:13:19 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:13:19 +0000 Subject: html doc rendering problem via apache In-Reply-To: <20031210161534.GA29408@mcs.anl.gov> References: <20031205223642.GD25765@mcs.anl.gov> <1071072269.12539.5.camel@smoogen1.lanl.gov> <20031210161534.GA29408@mcs.anl.gov> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031210171202.0266c670@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 16:15 10/12/2003, you wrote: >In my /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf file, I made the following changes: > ># AddDefaultCharset UTF-8 >AddDefaultCharset ISO-8859-1 > >And it worked! Thank you _so_ much! :-) > >I guess my next question is... is this a bug or should I have known to do >this? Only after you've suffered with encoding problems, setting the server to serve correctly, and trying to grok utf-8 ...... Trying to please all the browsers all the time... etc. then its painfully clear :-) regards DaveP From lsdr at lsdr.net Wed Dec 10 17:36:43 2003 From: lsdr at lsdr.net (Luiz Rocha) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:36:43 -0200 Subject: html doc rendering problem via apache In-Reply-To: <20031210033345.GB25890@mcs.anl.gov> References: <20031205223642.GD25765@mcs.anl.gov> <20031210033345.GB25890@mcs.anl.gov> Message-ID: <200312101536.43771.lsdr@lsdr.net> > I have been able to reproduce this behavior now on 3 different Fedora > Core 1 machines. > > Could someone else verify that it works for them, too? (Thanks Luiz!) > If it does, could you send me directly your 'rpm -qa' package list? Oh, how can I be so dumb? I do not FC default apache RPMs. I compile the server, in order do add some stuff I use that is not present in the default packages. Maybe it is a problem in the packages shipped in FC1. I'll install them and check it out. -- Luiz Rocha From scmungge at yahoo.co.kr Mon Dec 15 02:56:02 2003 From: scmungge at yahoo.co.kr (=?euc-kr?q?=B1=DD=C8=AD=BC=B7?=) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:56:02 +0900 (JST) Subject: I try to translate Documentation-guide-ko Message-ID: <20031215025602.36996.qmail@span.corp.yahoo.com> i translate Docuementation-guide for korean language. visit: http://www.ntckorea.com/~mungge/fedora-translation/ these xml files have euc-kr encoding format. if you want use. convert those to UTF-8 before make. but these documents was not clearly translated yet. i'm not sure those. also i don't have write permision of CVS. i just post only URL of my works. ============================================== mungge[AT]yahoo.co.kr HwaSeop, Keum ============================================== _____________________________________________________________________ ?? ???? ??? ???? - ??! ?? http://mail.yahoo.co.kr ??,???,??? ??? ???? - ??! ??? http://autos.yahoo.co.kr/autos/ From bfox at redhat.com Wed Dec 17 16:40:05 2003 From: bfox at redhat.com (Brent Fox) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:40:05 -0500 Subject: screenshotting firstboot Message-ID: <1071679205.10453.17.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> I have just implemented RFE #106688 (http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=106688) in CVS head to allow screenshots to be created in firstboot. I'm sending this to fedora-docs-list so that if anyone needs to create firstboot screenshots, this will help out a lot. All you have to do is press for each screen that you want to capture. The image will be saved in /tmp/firstboot-screenshots/. This feature will appear in Fedora Core 2. Cheers, Brent From luismott at ig.com.br Thu Dec 18 12:16:45 2003 From: luismott at ig.com.br (luismott at ig.com.br) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:16:45 -0200 Subject: Slow init Message-ID: <200312181216.hBICGrA03442@mx1.redhat.com> HI everybody! I have the new fedora and my boot in that vesa mode is slow... how i can fix this? Thanks!! quantumbit (RS, BRAZIL) _________________________________________________________ Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra v?rus e spams? Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br Ofertas imperd?veis! Link: http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/ From linux at bytebot.net Thu Dec 18 13:23:23 2003 From: linux at bytebot.net (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:23:23 +0100 Subject: screenshotting firstboot In-Reply-To: <1071679205.10453.17.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> References: <1071679205.10453.17.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1071698941.25751.36.camel@hermione> On Wed, 2003-12-17 at 17:40, Brent Fox wrote: > All you have to do is press for each screen that you > want to capture. The image will be saved in > /tmp/firstboot-screenshots/. This feature will appear in Fedora Core 2. Erm, for Anaconda screenshots, we leave it at /root/anaconda-screenshots (or something similar)... So, for firstboot stuff we're keeping it in /tmp. How about instead of putting anaconda stuff in /root and firstboot stuff in /tmp, we decide on one central location to store it? Either pick /root or /tmp. -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ From bfox at redhat.com Thu Dec 18 16:10:00 2003 From: bfox at redhat.com (Brent Fox) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:10:00 -0500 Subject: screenshotting firstboot In-Reply-To: <1071698941.25751.36.camel@hermione> References: <1071679205.10453.17.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <1071698941.25751.36.camel@hermione> Message-ID: <1071763800.12238.4.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 08:23, Colin Charles wrote: > On Wed, 2003-12-17 at 17:40, Brent Fox wrote: > > > All you have to do is press for each screen that you > > want to capture. The image will be saved in > > /tmp/firstboot-screenshots/. This feature will appear in Fedora Core 2. > > Erm, for Anaconda screenshots, we leave it at /root/anaconda-screenshots > (or something similar)... > > So, for firstboot stuff we're keeping it in /tmp. > > How about instead of putting anaconda stuff in /root and firstboot stuff > in /tmp, we decide on one central location to store it? Either pick > /root or /tmp. Someone on fedora-config-list pointed this out to me so I've changed firstboot to save the screenshots in /root/firstboot-screenshots/. Thanks for the feedback. Cheers, Brent From kwade at redhat.com Thu Dec 18 18:10:42 2003 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: 18 Dec 2003 10:10:42 -0800 Subject: Slow init In-Reply-To: <200312181216.hBICGrA03442@mx1.redhat.com> References: <200312181216.hBICGrA03442@mx1.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1071771042.4226.5741.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 04:16, luismott at ig.com.br wrote: > HI everybody! > I have the new fedora and my boot in that vesa mode is slow... > how i can fix this? You probably want to ask this question on fedora-list, where the topic is general Fedora discussion. This list is devoted to documentation. Good luck - Karsten -- Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: +1.831.466.9664 kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: +1.831.818.9995 Red Hat Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal Server -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- From bhaskins at chartermi.net Thu Dec 18 22:13:25 2003 From: bhaskins at chartermi.net (Bert Haskins) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:13:25 -0600 Subject: Help! FC1 Mozilla has disapeared! In-Reply-To: <1071771042.4226.5741.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <200312181216.hBICGrA03442@mx1.redhat.com> <1071771042.4226.5741.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <3FE22685.8070207@chartermi.net> Yea, this may be the wrong list but I'm about to leave on a ten-day trip and don't have the time to do a new list. My FC1 install has been doing fine but all of a sudden when I try to bring up Mozilla, the program appears to be loading but never comes up on the screen. It was working fine yesterday. I hope that there is some easy answer for this Help please, Bert From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Fri Dec 19 15:42:34 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:42:34 +0000 Subject: Glossary. SELinux Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031219154148.025f2cd0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/schedule/ has this term included. If you tell me what it means I'll add it to the glossary. regards DaveP From jamesd at jml.net Fri Dec 19 15:57:37 2003 From: jamesd at jml.net (James Davis) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:57:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Glossary. SELinux In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031219154148.025f2cd0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Dave Pawson wrote: > If you tell me what it means I'll add it to the glossary. http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/ will tell you all. Regards, James -- http://jamesd.ukgeeks.co.uk/ From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Fri Dec 19 16:07:56 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:07:56 +0000 Subject: Glossary. SELinux In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.0.22.2.20031219154148.025f2cd0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031219160708.025fb418@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 15:57 19/12/2003, you wrote: >On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Dave Pawson wrote: > > > If you tell me what it means I'll add it to the glossary. > >http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/ will tell you all. Security Enhanced. Thanks James. >http://jamesd.ukgeeks.co.uk/ An appropriate sig line :-) regards DaveP From nick at zder.net Sun Dec 21 14:47:40 2003 From: nick at zder.net (Nick) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:47:40 -0500 Subject: Documentation project status Message-ID: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello everyone, I looking to help out where I can with the documentation project. However, I have a few questions which I could not find answers to: 1. Are sections on the project site the only ones being pursued? The main site shows -- Tammy Fox: Installation Guide Paul W. Frields: TBD Luiz Rocha: Configuring and Using PDAs 2. For sections underway, what are their status? 3. Are there any priorities or road maps for this project? 4. The main Red Hat site already has some great documentation which is largely applicable to Fedora, is anybody "converting" or "borrowing" from this to get started? (better yet, are we allowed to do so, legally) Nick From gavin.henry at magicfx.co.uk Sun Dec 21 20:18:24 2003 From: gavin.henry at magicfx.co.uk (Gavin Henry) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:18:24 +0000 Subject: legalnotice-en.xml patch Message-ID: <200312212018.28933.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, Just a wee silly patch :-) Thanks. Gavin. - -- Regards http://www.magicfx.co.uk http://www.suretecsystems.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/5gATgNqd7Kng8UoRAp4VAJ9TOOPGfPbl+YeMre9JFwOnibdxZwCg5q7N lRFuH+cZYDyNxBIIbIsDsMQ= =H8m2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: legalnotice-en.diff Type: text/x-diff Size: 527 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Dec 22 18:12:58 2003 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: 22 Dec 2003 10:12:58 -0800 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 06:47, Nick wrote: > Hello everyone, I looking to help out where I can with the documentation > project. However, I have a few questions which I could not find answers > to: Sorry about the lack of visible FAQ; working on that one over the holidaze. The last version was sent to the list at: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-November/msg00161.html > 1. Are sections on the project site the only ones being pursued? > The main site shows -- > Tammy Fox: Installation Guide > Paul W. Frields: TBD > Luiz Rocha: Configuring and Using PDAs The FAQ page has some which are more current - here is the excerpt of what has been suggested and/or is being worked on: * Installing an SSH server with public/private key authentication * Configuring and using digital cameras * Anaconda documentation (in process) * Security considerings in installation * Security other (by topic, i.e. filesystems, host, etc.) * Configuring PDA > 2. For sections underway, what are their status? AFAIK: * The Anaconda group has been working, but there hasn't been a status update posted here. * There have been minor updates to the Fedora Doc Guide * Biggest activity so far has been with translation, both of documentation and software. Not a huge amount, see next reply for some reasons. > 3. Are there any priorities or road maps for this project? > 4. The main Red Hat site already has some great documentation which is > largely applicable to Fedora, is anybody "converting" or "borrowing" > from this to get started? (better yet, are we allowed to do so, legally) Replying to both 3. and 4. together. The following is basically my surmised opinion, so don't be overly surprised if I get a few facts wrong. :) The focus for the Fedora docs project is primarily on tutorials and how-to documentation (fact). Our experience building and supporting the enterprise product level documentation for Red Hat has shown that it is a truly more-than-full-time job (fact). Not expecting that level of commitment from the open source community, Tammy (wisely) decided to have the Fedora documentation be of the easier to produce and maintain tutorial variety (guess). The sole exception is the Installation Guide and this project's Documentation Guide (fact). The content of the RHEL and RHL documents is covered under the OPL; you can check the license for any doc by looking at the legalnotice.html page, accessible from the ToC of any document, e.g.: http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-3-Manual/admin-guide/legalnotice.html IMHO, the conversion project would be pretty big to perform - the SGML would need refactoring into XML, and all of the content manually checked against the current Fedora Core release. Considering the rapid release cycle of Fedora Core, it will be hard to keep the documents up to date. Again, this is based on our experience doing the same thing for RHL -- with that 6 month release cycle, a team of full-time doc writers was regularly busy more than 60 hours a week to produce the doxen on time. HTH. I'll see that the FAQ addresses these kind of concerns when we post it Real Soon Now(TM). hoppy holidaze - Karsten -- Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: +1.831.466.9664 kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: +1.831.818.9995 Red Hat Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal Server -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- From ed at redhat.com Mon Dec 22 19:27:42 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:27:42 -0500 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> (Karsten Wade's message of "22 Dec 2003 10:12:58 -0800") References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: >>>>> "Karsten" == Karsten Wade writes: Karsten> On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 06:47, Nick wrote: ... >> 3. Are there any priorities or road maps for this project? >> 4. The main Red Hat site already has some great documentation which is >> largely applicable to Fedora, is anybody "converting" or "borrowing" >> from this to get started? (better yet, are we allowed to do so, legally) Karsten> Replying to both 3. and 4. together. The following is basically Karsten> my surmised opinion, so don't be overly surprised if I get a few Karsten> facts wrong. :) Karsten> The focus for the Fedora docs project is primarily on tutorials Karsten> and how-to documentation (fact). Our experience building and Karsten> supporting the enterprise product level documentation for Red Hat Karsten> has shown that it is a truly more-than-full-time job (fact). Not Karsten> expecting that level of commitment from the open source community, Karsten> Tammy (wisely) decided to have the Fedora documentation be of the Karsten> easier to produce and maintain tutorial variety (guess). While I can't claim to be a resident of Tammy's cranium :-), I do recall discussions surrounding some of her thinking at the time. She felt that tutorials would be easier for an interested party to write than an entire manual (or even a chapter of a manual). Karsten> The sole exception is the Installation Guide and this project's Karsten> Documentation Guide (fact). Note that the "Installation Guide" mentioned here is a still-aborning document that is *not* related to any previous Red Hat Linux Installation Guide. Karsten> The content of the RHEL and RHL documents is covered under the Karsten> OPL; you can check the license for any doc by looking at the Karsten> legalnotice.html page, accessible from the ToC of any document, Karsten> e.g.: Karsten> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-3-Manual/admin-guide/legalnotice.html Ummm, one minor point. You'll note that These documents include the following options to the OPL: "Distribution of substantively modified versions of this document is prohibited without the explicit permission of the copyright holder." "Distribution of the work or derivative of the work in any standard (paper) book form for commercial purposes is prohibited unless prior permission is obtained from the copyright holder." These options effectively restrict documents licensed in this fashion from being used for the Fedora project. Karsten> IMHO, the conversion project would be pretty big to perform - the ... Unfortunately, given the license these points are all moot... Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From Tom_Garner at aotx.uscourts.gov Mon Dec 22 22:01:39 2003 From: Tom_Garner at aotx.uscourts.gov (Tom_Garner at aotx.uscourts.gov) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:01:39 -0600 Subject: Tom Garner/SAT/AO/USCOURTS is out of the office. Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting 12/22/2003 and will not return until 12/29/2003. I will respond to your message when I return. From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Tue Dec 23 10:56:21 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:56:21 +0000 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105500.0260d758@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 18:12 22/12/2003, Karsten Wade wrote: >IMHO, the conversion project would be pretty big to perform - the SGML >would need refactoring into XML, and all of the content manually checked >against the current Fedora Core release. Considering the rapid release >cycle of Fedora Core, it will be hard to keep the documents up to date. I did quite a bit of SGML to XML conversion. Are there any SGML docs that I could look at, to see how hard it might be, see if it could be automated at all? regards DaveP From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Tue Dec 23 10:59:25 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:59:25 +0000 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 19:27 22/12/2003, Edward C. Bailey wrote: >Ummm, one minor point. You'll note that These documents include the >following options to the OPL: > > "Distribution of substantively modified versions of this document is > prohibited without the explicit permission of the copyright holder." > > "Distribution of the work or derivative of the work in any standard > (paper) book form for commercial purposes is prohibited unless prior > permission is obtained from the copyright holder." > >These options effectively restrict documents licensed in this fashion from >being used for the Fedora project. If applicable, an SGML to XML conversion under FDL use wouldn't breach 1. I for one certainly wouldn't deliver a paper copy, which abides by 2. How many docs are still applicable to Fedora? regards DaveP. From dgonzo at optonline.net Wed Dec 24 02:27:21 2003 From: dgonzo at optonline.net (Daniel Gonzalez) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:27:21 -0500 Subject: Qualifications needed for Editing? Message-ID: <1072232841.4374.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> I was just curious as to what sort of qualifications are needed to become an editor? I'm not a programmer by any means (basic scripting etc) but would be very interested in editing/proof-reading etc. I apologize in advance if this is not the correct forum in which to ask my question. Regards Dan Gonzalez dgonzo at optonline dot net spam_me_silly at linux dot net From linux at bytebot.net Wed Dec 24 09:45:44 2003 From: linux at bytebot.net (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:45:44 +0100 Subject: Conglomerate Message-ID: <1072123235.22607.49.camel@hermione> Hello all, Conglomerate[1] just got "stable", and I'm sure RPM's will flow in soon (if they're not already there). How can we use this tool to integrate into the Fedora Docs Project, for folk that do not want to use Emacs? Kind regards. [1] - www.conglomerate.org -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ From kwade at redhat.com Wed Dec 24 10:33:40 2003 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: 24 Dec 2003 02:33:40 -0800 Subject: Conglomerate In-Reply-To: <1072123235.22607.49.camel@hermione> References: <1072123235.22607.49.camel@hermione> Message-ID: <1072262019.1654.32.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2003-12-24 at 01:45, Colin Charles wrote: > Hello all, > > Conglomerate[1] just got "stable", and I'm sure RPM's will flow in soon > (if they're not already there). How can we use this tool to integrate > into the Fedora Docs Project, for folk that do not want to use Emacs? For most of it, you would expect it to just work. Emacs+PSGML doesn't variate from the standard as set by the DTD. If Conglomerate holds true to its promise of doing the same thing, it should (mostly) Just Work(TM). However ... you saw the (mostly) above ... there are going to be some catches. Here is one I suspect off-hand, without yet testing: * If you are working with separate .xml files for e.g. or
groupings (which is common when splitting work amongst a team, for easier management, modularity, content reuse, etc.), there may be differences in the indentation. We would want to make certain that indentation was handled the same in Emacs and Conglomerate, and Conglomerate would have to adhere to whatever standard was set by Emacs+PSGML /while using/ the standard Fedora docs project Doc Guide. Ultimately, we will need to test for compatibility as we proceed, and Conglomerate users will have to share any tweaks that makes the output XML match the Emacs+PSGML standard. Just run s/Conglomerate/{vi,joe,ed,youreditor}/ against the previous paragraph for other editors. ;-) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: +1.831.466.9664 kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: +1.831.818.9995 Red Hat Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal Server -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- From kwade at redhat.com Wed Dec 24 10:49:45 2003 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: 24 Dec 2003 02:49:45 -0800 Subject: Qualifications needed for Editing? In-Reply-To: <1072232841.4374.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1072232841.4374.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1072262984.1654.68.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2003-12-23 at 18:27, Daniel Gonzalez wrote: > I was just curious as to what sort of qualifications are needed to > become an editor? I'm not a programmer by any means (basic scripting > etc) but would be very interested in editing/proof-reading etc. I > apologize in advance if this is not the correct forum in which to ask my > question. I don't think this has been formally defined, although I'm sure someone can dig up a job description for editor. But in the spirit of "it seems to me", here are some ideas. Technical Editors People who focus primarily on catching technical errors. Activities include: * Performing all actions as directed in the tutorial * Verifying accuracy of output * Tracking down technical answers to questions writers have, or errors they have made and don't know how to correct Language Editors (Wordsmiths) People who focus primarily on catching grammatical, spelling and idiomatic errors in their language. Activities include: * Reading for grammar, spelling and correct idiom usage * Correcting transliteration errors * Reading for clarity (language, flow of prose or narrative) General Editors These are tasks which could be performed by anyone: * XML accuracy and tag usage * Code formatting (adherence to standards) * Refactoring for accuracy, clarity and tag usage ... just some thoughts ... - Karsten -- Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: +1.831.466.9664 kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: +1.831.818.9995 Red Hat Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal Server -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- From dgonzo at optonline.net Wed Dec 24 11:23:42 2003 From: dgonzo at optonline.net (Daniel Gonzalez) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 06:23:42 -0500 Subject: Qualifications needed for Editing? In-Reply-To: <1072262984.1654.68.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1072232841.4374.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072262984.1654.68.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1072265022.4374.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Karsten- Thanks for the quick reply. If those are the only requirements, I think I may be able to offer some help editing if needed. I'm a 5ESS Maintenance Engineer and pretty much deal with technical documentation on a daily basis a la Lucent Technologies. I also write some tutorials, HOWTOs etc. for the switch technicians maintaining the switching equipment. I don't know what info you will need from me, but I can send you samples of my past work if needed. Thanks again, Dan Gonzalez dgonzo at optonline.net spam_me_silly at optonline.net On Wed, 2003-12-24 at 05:49, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2003-12-23 at 18:27, Daniel Gonzalez wrote: > > I was just curious as to what sort of qualifications are needed to > > become an editor? I'm not a programmer by any means (basic scripting > > etc) but would be very interested in editing/proof-reading etc. I > > apologize in advance if this is not the correct forum in which to ask my > > question. > > I don't think this has been formally defined, although I'm sure someone > can dig up a job description for editor. But in the spirit of "it seems > to me", here are some ideas. > > Technical Editors > > People who focus primarily on catching technical errors. Activities > include: > > * Performing all actions as directed in the tutorial > * Verifying accuracy of output > * Tracking down technical answers to questions writers have, or errors > they have made and don't know how to correct > > Language Editors (Wordsmiths) > > People who focus primarily on catching grammatical, spelling and > idiomatic errors in their language. Activities include: > > * Reading for grammar, spelling and correct idiom usage > * Correcting transliteration errors > * Reading for clarity (language, flow of prose or narrative) > > General Editors > > These are tasks which could be performed by anyone: > > * XML accuracy and tag usage > * Code formatting (adherence to standards) > * Refactoring for accuracy, clarity and tag usage > > ... just some thoughts ... > > - Karsten From a.lousseief at telia.com Fri Dec 26 22:59:53 2003 From: a.lousseief at telia.com (Abdelwahab Lousseief) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:59:53 +0100 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <3FECBD69.8070902@telia.com> -- Abdelwahab Lousseief Carl Bondes vag 60, 2TR SE -- 165 74 HASSELBY ----------------------- Tel: +46-(0)8-739 22 94 Mobile: +46-(0)733 167 797 E-mail: a.lousseief at telia.com aloussei at telia.com (for large documents) From fedora at scoco.be Fri Dec 26 23:18:08 2003 From: fedora at scoco.be (Jan Fabry) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:18:08 +0100 Subject: Documentating the configuration files Message-ID: <3FECC1B0.7080102@scoco.be> Hello, Are there any plans to documentate the configuration files, and their relationship to each other? I know Fedora is a end-user-oriented project, but for that one case when you need to change something for which there is no GUI, it's not always easy to know where to start ("if I want to add a directory to my path, where should I put it?"). The man pages alone don't always offer all the information you need: configuration files can be very distro-specific, and might put the usual configuration files in a totally different context. If this doesn't fall under the scope of this project, I might start something like this on my own, but of course it's always easier if we work together. Greetings, Jan Fabry From kwade at redhat.com Sat Dec 27 09:05:06 2003 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: 27 Dec 2003 01:05:06 -0800 Subject: Documentating the configuration files In-Reply-To: <3FECC1B0.7080102@scoco.be> References: <3FECC1B0.7080102@scoco.be> Message-ID: <1072515903.1654.4302.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2003-12-26 at 15:18, Jan Fabry wrote: > Hello, > > Are there any plans to documentate the configuration files, and their > relationship to each other? I know Fedora is a end-user-oriented > project, but for that one case when you need to change something for > which there is no GUI, it's not always easy to know where to start ("if > I want to add a directory to my path, where should I put it?"). > > The man pages alone don't always offer all the information you need: > configuration files can be very distro-specific, and might put the usual > configuration files in a totally different context. > > If this doesn't fall under the scope of this project, I might start > something like this on my own, but of course it's always easier if we > work together. This is an interesting idea. It is reminiscent of the RHEL Reference Guide (http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-3-Manual/ref-guide/), which has many chapters devoted to config files. Of course, something of that size and type _is_ out of scope for the Fedora docs project. However, a very tight config file reference that was e.g. organized sets of files done as multiple entries would be very useful, even if such a reference work is outside of the FDP scope. The real question is, how do you decide what exactly to document? [root at erato etc]# find . -type f | wc -l 1543 That's a whole bunch. I would be concerned that no matter what number and which files you chose to document, you would have a stand alone document requiring regular manual maintenance, and which is somewhat duplicating the effort of the man pages (deficient as they might be). Another viewpoint would be to take the effort for doing this stand alone reference and put that into updating the man pages. An updated man page should contain a complete list of all relevant config files, which then may have their own man pages, and which should be self-documented inside the config file itself (in comment blocks). For *nix, this is the proper place for documentation - comes loaded on the system and doesn't require a separate reader and a network connection to access. I'd rather teach users to rely upon those resources, if it were all up to me. We've been contemplating for a while what such a project would be like. Huge. That's about the size of it. However, if the FDP group were to take on this task, we might be able to get the Linux Doc Project to let us convert all of the man pages to DocBook XML. ;-) - Karsten, still dreaming large -- Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: +1.831.466.9664 kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: +1.831.818.9995 Red Hat Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal Server -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Sat Dec 27 10:10:41 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:10:41 +0000 Subject: Documentating the configuration files In-Reply-To: <1072515903.1654.4302.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3FECC1B0.7080102@scoco.be> <1072515903.1654.4302.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031227100601.02535d10@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 09:05 27/12/2003, Karsten Wade wrote: >On Fri, 2003-12-26 at 15:18, Jan Fabry wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Are there any plans to documentate the configuration files, >This is an interesting idea. It is reminiscent of the RHEL Reference >Guide >(http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-3-Manual/ref-guide/), >which has many chapters devoted to config files. Of course, something of >that size and type _is_ out of scope for the Fedora docs project. > >However, a very tight config file reference that was e.g. organized sets >of files done as multiple entries would be very useful, >even if such a reference work is outside of the FDP scope. > >The real question is, how do you decide what exactly to document? I like the idea. A simpler start might be: 1. List the files, a two line description of what they are for, possibly any cross links (see also xxx) (impacts on yyy) 2. From that, it would be possible to develop into a further detailed document. The comment about it needing lots of updates would be a good 'stop here' notice. *if* the man pages are adequate, then a reference to them might be the final entry? If not it at least points out the need for a man page? HTH daveP From fedora at scoco.be Sat Dec 27 15:23:54 2003 From: fedora at scoco.be (Jan Fabry) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:23:54 +0100 Subject: Documentating the configuration files In-Reply-To: <1072515903.1654.4302.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3FECC1B0.7080102@scoco.be> <1072515903.1654.4302.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <3FEDA40A.3020506@scoco.be> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2003-12-26 at 15:18, Jan Fabry wrote: > >>Hello, >> >>Are there any plans to documentate the configuration files, and their >>relationship to each other? I know Fedora is a end-user-oriented >>project, but for that one case when you need to change something for >>which there is no GUI, it's not always easy to know where to start ("if >>I want to add a directory to my path, where should I put it?"). >> >>The man pages alone don't always offer all the information you need: >>configuration files can be very distro-specific, and might put the usual >>configuration files in a totally different context. >> >>If this doesn't fall under the scope of this project, I might start >>something like this on my own, but of course it's always easier if we >>work together. > > > This is an interesting idea. It is reminiscent of the RHEL Reference > Guide > (http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-3-Manual/ref-guide/), which has many chapters devoted to config files. Of course, something of that size and type _is_ out of scope for the Fedora docs project. Wow, I never knew this document existed. Indeed, it is a very good start for what I want. > However, a very tight config file reference that was e.g. organized sets > of files done as multiple entries would be very useful, > even if such a reference work is outside of the FDP scope. > > The real question is, how do you decide what exactly to document? > > [root at erato etc]# find . -type f | wc -l > 1543 > > That's a whole bunch. I would be concerned that no matter what number > and which files you chose to document, you would have a stand alone > document requiring regular manual maintenance, and which is somewhat > duplicating the effort of the man pages (deficient as they might be). I like Dave's idea: a list of all the files, so you can at least refer to them in other documents. This way, if the location of a file changes, or it is split over multiple files, all the referring docs don't get outdated too soon. And indeed, we could start there, and link to other documentation resources from there. > > Another viewpoint would be to take the effort for doing this stand alone > reference and put that into updating the man pages. An updated man page > should contain a complete list of all relevant config files, which then > may have their own man pages, and which should be self-documented inside > the config file itself (in comment blocks). For *nix, this is the > proper place for documentation - comes loaded on the system and doesn't > require a separate reader and a network connection to access. I'd > rather teach users to rely upon those resources, if it were all up to > me. But it would be nice if we could integrate man, info, howto, whatever into one system, which chooses the best output format in any given situation (when you're using the terminal in Gnome, it would be no problem to start a GUI help system for example). > > We've been contemplating for a while what such a project would be like. > Huge. That's about the size of it. However, if the FDP group were to > take on this task, we might be able to get the Linux Doc Project to let > us convert all of the man pages to DocBook XML. ;-) This would be great - instead of taking the man, info, whatever files as a source of the Fedora documentation viewer, we would only use Docbook files, and convert _them_ to man, info, whatever. This would take Linux documentation to a whole new level, with standard ways of referring to each other and stuff like that. We have the tools to do this, we only need people willing to do it. The Fedora help viewer would then only need to know about this Docbook-based format. When new documentation is added, it is also indexed for easy searching. I don't know if GTK has a standard help system, but it would be great if we could integrate this (a bit like Apple's help viewer - if I open help for Safari, I can also search for help on iTunes and other applications using this help system). My ultimate dream would be a universal 'whatis'. You can type 'whatis [filename]', and it would tell you as much as it knows about that file. If no real documentation would be found, you get the file(1) information about it, or some other backup information. But that is of course a long way ahead... But to start: I'm very interested in this man pages -> DocBook conversion. I have already found docfilter [ http://www.catb.org/~esr/doclifter/ ], a tool to help with this conversion. Any other pointers to more info? Greetings, Jan Fabry From ed at redhat.com Sun Dec 28 23:02:23 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:02:23 -0500 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> (Dave Pawson's message of "Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:59:25 +0000") References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: Hello all, Sorry I haven't responded sooner -- I was away visiting family over the holidays, and wasn't able to get to my email... >>>>> "Dave" == Dave Pawson writes: Dave> At 19:27 22/12/2003, Edward C. Bailey wrote: >> Ummm, one minor point. You'll note that These documents include the >> following options to the OPL: >> >> "Distribution of substantively modified versions of this document is >> prohibited without the explicit permission of the copyright holder." >> >> "Distribution of the work or derivative of the work in any standard >> (paper) book form for commercial purposes is prohibited unless prior >> permission is obtained from the copyright holder." >> >> These options effectively restrict documents licensed in this fashion >> from being used for the Fedora project. Dave> If applicable, an SGML to XML conversion under FDL use wouldn't Dave> breach 1. I for one certainly wouldn't deliver a paper copy, which Dave> abides by 2. >From a strict interpretation, the points you make are true (however, I would not be at all surprised if the SGML>XML conversation itself was deemed to be a "substantive modification" -- but for the sake of argument, let's assume this isn't an issue). What you would then have would be an XML version of the Red Hat Linux 9 documentation. This copy would also be licensed under the OPL, and would include the same two options mentioned here, as there is no language in the OPL that allows a third-party to change the license terms. So far, so good. However, the next logical step is when things start to run off the tracks. What's the most natural thing to do with an existing document when the software described in that document changes? That's right -- modify the document to reflect the changes made to the software. And at *that* point we're *definitely* talking about "substantive modifications", so we're into prohibited territory. Bottom line -- The Red Hat Linux is not part of the Fedora project, so the only way to move forward wrt Fedora Core documentation is to concentrate on the creation of new content... Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From ed at redhat.com Sun Dec 28 23:12:33 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:12:33 -0500 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: (Edward C. Bailey's message of "Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:02:23 -0500") References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: >>>>> "Ed" == Edward C Bailey writes: ... Ed> Bottom line -- The Red Hat Linux is not part of the Fedora project, so ^---- documentation Ed> the only way to move forward wrt Fedora Core documentation is to Ed> concentrate on the creation of new content... You know, I read that email three times before sending it, and still manageed to screw it up... :-) Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Mon Dec 29 08:51:24 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:51:24 +0000 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031229084927.02532338@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 23:02 28/12/2003, Edward C. Bailey wrote: >However, the next logical step is when things start to run off the tracks. >What's the most natural thing to do with an existing document when the >software described in that document changes? That's right -- modify the >document to reflect the changes made to the software. > >And at *that* point we're *definitely* talking about "substantive >modifications", so we're into prohibited territory. > >Bottom line -- The Red Hat Linux is not part of the Fedora project, so the >only way to move forward wrt Fedora Core documentation is to concentrate on >the creation of new content... What a bloody waste. Are the Redhat people such a bunch of **** that they wont allow re-use, not even when moderated by their own staff? Can someone inside redhat raise this please? It *was* redhat that gave birth to Fedora. regards DaveP From tdiehl at rogueind.com Mon Dec 29 13:25:44 2003 From: tdiehl at rogueind.com (Tom Diehl) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:25:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2003, Edward C. Bailey wrote: > Bottom line -- The Red Hat Linux is not part of the Fedora project, so the > only way to move forward wrt Fedora Core documentation is to concentrate on > the creation of new content... Is there any chance of getting a public explanation as to why Red Hat will not allow the RHL 9 docs to be used as a starting point. Assuming s/Red Hat/fedora?? Yes, I know there is art work also but that could also be substituted also. I mean if there had been a RHL 10 would not that have been the docs for it modulo the differences?? It is not like RHL 9 anything represents large quantities of long term income for Red Hat. Especially given that April is only 4 months away. .......Tom From nick at zder.net Mon Dec 29 14:00:21 2003 From: nick at zder.net (Nick) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:00:21 -0500 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> Yes, it seems there is much confusion about this. After reading many of the comments after my original post, and the lack of a significant roadmap for this project, I fail to see the purpose of a Fedora documentation project. "Tutorial style articles" instead of significant documentation will drive away newcomers faster than anything. Let's look at a couple other major distros, Debian and Mandrake. They have an enormous amount of installation, configuration, and administration docs for their releases. What's Fedora have? Much of RH9 documentation is applicable, so should there be a notice on the documentation project site for people to use those documents? I don't know, I thought I was be myself here, but it looks like many other have the same concerns. Nick Tom Diehl wrote: >On Sun, 28 Dec 2003, Edward C. Bailey wrote: > > > >>Bottom line -- The Red Hat Linux is not part of the Fedora project, so the >>only way to move forward wrt Fedora Core documentation is to concentrate on >>the creation of new content... >> >> > >Is there any chance of getting a public explanation as to why Red Hat will not >allow the RHL 9 docs to be used as a starting point. Assuming s/Red Hat/fedora?? >Yes, I know there is art work also but that could also be substituted also. > >I mean if there had been a RHL 10 would not that have been the docs for it modulo >the differences?? > >It is not like RHL 9 anything represents large quantities of long term income >for Red Hat. Especially given that April is only 4 months away. > >.......Tom > > >-- >fedora-docs-list mailing list >fedora-docs-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > From ed at redhat.com Mon Dec 29 16:32:37 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 11:32:37 -0500 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> (nick@zder.net's message of "Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:00:21 -0500") References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> Message-ID: Ok, it's obvious that my previous post has generated more heat than light. Let me try to bring some additional photons into the mix... :-) The software comprising Red Hat Linux is available with very little restriction. You can install it on a thousand machines if you like, you can make money by selling the software (as long as you don't call the software you sell "Red Hat Linux"), you can obtain the sources and make any changes you want. I'm sure everyone here knows all this stuff -- it's pretty much business-as-usual, from an open source perspective. The documentation produced by Red Hat for Red Hat Linux is a different story. The intent was never to make the documentation open source -- you'll note that the SGML files (or the LaTeX files for the earlier releases) used to create the manuals are not made available. The original thinking was that the documentation was (to use corporate-speak) a "value-add". And that was that. To be honest, we didn't give the matter all that much thought -- we figured that copyright would be sufficient. Until this little gem popped up in the bookstores, that is: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0965957535/qid=1072710563/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-7187390-8046543?v=glance&s=books The content for this book was taken from the HTML version of the documentation distributed with Red Hat Linux 6.0. Unfortunately, it was not entirely clear to people purchasing the book that they had not purchased an official Red Hat product, which caused no end of problems when these people then demanded the free tech support the manual implied was available to them. Add to this the fact that whoever did the job converting the HTML into printable text messed up badly in a number of areas (it's been a while since I've looked at the book, but iirc cross-references and certain textual treatments were pretty screwed up), and you have a real mess. In addition, the book was advertised as having a preface written by a Red Hat employee -- Sandra Moore (in an attempt to give the book more credibility, I guess) when she actually wrote the entire manual. She (or Red Hat) was never contacted by the company that produced the book. It was just a slimey situation all around. Granted, we brought this on ourselves by not making very clear the ground rules regarding how the documentation could be used and distributed. In any case, we then looked to clarify things by explicitly putting the documentation under a license that would hopefully eliminate the problems we were seeing. To make a long story short (I doubt you want to hear about how I tried to get our Legal department to write a documentation license), we searched for an appropriate license, found the OPL (and its two options), and decided that it was the best option available to us -- it allowed the documentation to be distributed as freely as Red Hat Linux while still preventing: o Other entities using the documentation for commercial gain, and confusing people as to what was an official Red Hat product versus a legitimate (but unofficial) copy. o The possibility of a third-party maliciously (or innocently) "putting words in our mouth" ("To upgrade your system, issue the following command: rm -rf /") That's why Red Hat Linux documentation is not open source, and how it came to be licensed as it is. When the Fedora Project was being born, the question of documentation was raised internally, as it was a given that the Red Hat Linux documentation (by this time basically a branch of the same documentation used for Red Hat Enterprise Linux) was not available for the project. It was at this time that those of us involved in producing Red Hat's documentation looked at the the Linux Documentation Project as the most viable approach for the documentation aspect of the Fedora Project. We felt that it would be more likely for interested people to write shorter tutorial-style documents than it would be for them to create large, monolithic manuals. We felt that the "infrastructure" (style guides, editorial support, etc) would be lower for the smaller, separate documents. As the documentation project grew, it could be extended to include full-blown manuals, but our thinking was to start small. Perhaps we've underestimated the kinds of documentation-related projects people would like to take on -- certainly the content produced by the Debian project is a good counter-example of what a dedicated group of individuals can accomplish (though I'll note that the Debian project has been around a while, and comparing a brand-new Fedora Project to a firmly-established Debian Project is not entirely fair)... That's about all I originally wanted to say; hopefully it has shed a bit more light on an admittedly confusing situation. I don't imagine that those of you unhappy about the unavailability of the Red Hat Linux documentation are going to be any happier, but at least you know how we got to where we are today. It seems that the best way to end this email is to pose a question: Where do we go from here? Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From pauln at truemesh.com Mon Dec 29 17:07:18 2003 From: pauln at truemesh.com (Paul Nasrat) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:07:18 +0000 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> Message-ID: <20031229170717.GU20129@ensim.rackshack.net> On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 11:32:37AM -0500, Edward C. Bailey wrote: > Ok, it's obvious that my previous post has generated more heat than light. > Let me try to bring some additional photons into the mix... :-) > It seems that the best way to end this email is to pose a question: > > Where do we go from here? I'd like to throw another log in the fire as it were :) Myself and some others have produced patches to update maximum rpm, which is under OPL - but with only the book format restriction (these patches are currently in HEAD). I'm doing this without exposure to Eric Foster-Johnson's book, btw. What would be the views on carrying on this work (fixing up pgp section next on my todo). Paul From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Mon Dec 29 18:16:08 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:16:08 +0000 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031229181126.0257f4f0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 16:32 29/12/2003, Edward C. Bailey wrote: >The documentation produced by Red Hat for Red Hat Linux is a different >story. The intent was never to make the documentation open source -- >you'll note that the SGML files (or the LaTeX files for the earlier >releases) used to create the manuals are not made available. The original >thinking was that the documentation was (to use corporate-speak) a >"value-add". > >And that was that. To be honest, we didn't give the matter all that much >thought -- we figured that copyright would be sufficient. Please tell your bosses I think they are a bunch of merchant bankers. If that's what they want from Fedora, then up their respectives. I'm Disgusted. Is this what they expected for Fedora? 'open source' but get your own documentation? I guess slashdot is a good market for such a message Edward? Give the 'managers' (they want sacking) the press they deserve? From ed at redhat.com Mon Dec 29 18:21:35 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:21:35 -0500 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <20031229170717.GU20129@ensim.rackshack.net> (Paul Nasrat's message of "Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:07:18 +0000") References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> <20031229170717.GU20129@ensim.rackshack.net> Message-ID: >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Nasrat writes: Paul> On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 11:32:37AM -0500, Edward C. Bailey wrote: >> It seems that the best way to end this email is to pose a question: >> >> Where do we go from here? Paul> I'd like to throw another log in the fire as it were :) Well, I hadn't dressed for flames this morning, but what the hell -- go for it... :-) Paul> Myself and some others have produced patches to update maximum rpm, Paul> which is under OPL - but with only the book format restriction (these Paul> patches are currently in HEAD). I'm doing this without exposure to Paul> Eric Foster-Johnson's book, btw. Paul> What would be the views on carrying on this work (fixing up pgp Paul> section next on my todo). Well, since I noticed you ping'ed me on irc, I assume you're asking what Red Hat's position (or mine, me being the author and all) would be on work being continued on Maximum RPM. The reason Maximum RPM was licensed under the OPL without the "substantive modifications" restriction was precisely to permit this kind of work to be done on it, so I can't think of a situation in which I (or Red Hat) would have an issue with what you're doing... Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From fedora at scoco.be Mon Dec 29 19:36:25 2003 From: fedora at scoco.be (Jan Fabry) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:36:25 +0100 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> Message-ID: <3FF08239.5020104@scoco.be> Edward C. Bailey wrote: > It was at this time that those of us involved in producing Red Hat's > documentation looked at the the Linux Documentation Project as the most > viable approach for the documentation aspect of the Fedora Project. We > felt that it would be more likely for interested people to write shorter > tutorial-style documents than it would be for them to create large, > monolithic manuals. We felt that the "infrastructure" (style guides, > editorial support, etc) would be lower for the smaller, separate documents. > As the documentation project grew, it could be extended to include > full-blown manuals, but our thinking was to start small. > > Perhaps we've underestimated the kinds of documentation-related projects > people would like to take on -- certainly the content produced by the > Debian project is a good counter-example of what a dedicated group of > individuals can accomplish (though I'll note that the Debian project has > been around a while, and comparing a brand-new Fedora Project to a > firmly-established Debian Project is not entirely fair)... > It seems that the best way to end this email is to pose a question: > > Where do we go from here? I think Fedora needs good installation and configuration manuals. Without these, it will never be possible to get a good user base (unless a majority of current Red Hat Linux users switch to Fedora). The 'tutorial-idea' is good, the Linux Documentation Project is good, but we cannot count on those two alone to provide enough information about the whole Fedora distribution. Whatever we do, we *must* have a good installation and configuration manual. So let's start writing now ;) Greetings, Jan Fabry From ed at redhat.com Mon Dec 29 20:15:06 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:15:06 -0500 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031229181126.0257f4f0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> (Dave Pawson's message of "Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:16:08 +0000") References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> <6.0.0.22.2.20031229181126.0257f4f0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: >>>>> "Dave" == Dave Pawson writes: Dave> Please tell your bosses I think they are a bunch of merchant bankers. ... I'm sorry you find this upsetting. Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Mon Dec 29 20:38:13 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:38:13 +0000 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> <6.0.0.22.2.20031229181126.0257f4f0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031229203636.0255fbd8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 20:15 29/12/2003, you wrote: > >>>>> "Dave" == Dave Pawson writes: >Dave> Please tell your bosses I think they are a bunch of merchant bankers. >... > >I'm sorry you find this upsetting. A waste. Totally. Disgust is more appropriate than upset. As for re-writing it all? My guess, Redhat will have lost its user base by then. Can you see *any* logic in this position Edward? regards DaveP From dgonzo at optonline.net Mon Dec 29 20:54:18 2003 From: dgonzo at optonline.net (Daniel Gonzalez) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:54:18 -0500 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031229203636.0255fbd8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> <6.0.0.22.2.20031229181126.0257f4f0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <6.0.0.22.2.20031229203636.0255fbd8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: <20031229155418.000035f6@x141dysze075> Sorry for intruding, but I'm a newcomer to this list and was reading the thread regarding Red Hat documentation and it not being open source. It seems that there is a "publisher's edition" of Red Hat docs that are being used right now... Could anyone here explain what is the difference between the official Red Hat docs and this publisher edition? http://linuxcentral.com/catalog/?prod_code=B000-352&id=C1C0aAmWPDXCs If I'm speaking out of my arse, please let me know Regards Dan Gonzalez dgonzo at optonline.net spam_me_silly at linux.net On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:38:13 +0000 Dave Pawson wrote: > At 20:15 29/12/2003, you wrote: > > >>>>> "Dave" == Dave Pawson writes: > >Dave> Please tell your bosses I think they are a bunch of merchant bankers. > >... > > > >I'm sorry you find this upsetting. > > A waste. Totally. Disgust is more appropriate than upset. > > As for re-writing it all? > My guess, Redhat will have lost its user base by then. > > Can you see *any* logic in this position Edward? > > regards DaveP > > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From joost at soeterbroek.com Mon Dec 29 21:02:00 2003 From: joost at soeterbroek.com (Joost Soeterbroek) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:02:00 +0100 Subject: volunteer yum document Message-ID: <1072731720.1360.5.camel@agouza.soeterbroek> Hello all, I would like to volunteer to the fedora-docs project as a technical writer/editor. I have already started a HOWTO/tutorial on the topic of keeping multiple fedora systems up2date with yum. Would this be useful for the project? Is there somewhere I can send or check in my XML sources I have so far? Regards, -- Joost Soeterbroek joost at soeterbroek.com From ed at redhat.com Mon Dec 29 22:04:06 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:04:06 -0500 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <20031229155418.000035f6@x141dysze075> (Daniel Gonzalez's message of "Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:54:18 -0500") References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> <6.0.0.22.2.20031229181126.0257f4f0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <6.0.0.22.2.20031229203636.0255fbd8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <20031229155418.000035f6@x141dysze075> Message-ID: >>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel Gonzalez writes: Daniel> Sorry for intruding, but I'm a newcomer to this list and was Daniel> reading the thread regarding Red Hat documentation and it not being Daniel> open source. It seems that there is a "publisher's edition" of Red Daniel> Hat docs that are being used right now... Could anyone here explain Daniel> what is the difference between the official Red Hat docs and this Daniel> publisher edition? Daniel> http://linuxcentral.com/catalog/?prod_code=B000-352&id=C1C0aAmWPDXCs There are two components to the product you're seeing on that page: o A book written by two people unconnected with Red Hat o A two-CD "publisher's edition" of the Fedora Core 1 operating system (built from the full FC1 edition by the Red Hat developers) The book is not related to the documentation I've been discussing on the list in any way (other than they both discuss the use of a Linux operating system). The two-CD set is related to the documentation being discussed here only in that prior versions of the software was known as Red Hat Linux, which is what the documentation was written to, uh, document. :-) Daniel> If I'm speaking out of my arse, please let me know Well, from here I can't tell if your backside was involved in this discussion, but it was a valid question... :-) Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From ed at redhat.com Mon Dec 29 22:08:25 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:08:25 -0500 Subject: volunteer yum document In-Reply-To: <1072731720.1360.5.camel@agouza.soeterbroek> (Joost Soeterbroek's message of "Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:02:00 +0100") References: <1072731720.1360.5.camel@agouza.soeterbroek> Message-ID: >>>>> "Joost" == Joost Soeterbroek writes: Joost> Hello all, I would like to volunteer to the fedora-docs project as a Joost> technical writer/editor. I have already started a HOWTO/tutorial on Joost> the topic of keeping multiple fedora systems up2date with yum. Would Joost> this be useful for the project? Yes, that would be super -- thanks! Joost> Is there somewhere I can send or check in my XML sources I have so Joost> far? Unfortunately, the project's CVS server is not yet online, so the best thing would be to hold onto your document, and when you see us talking about the new CVS server, ask how to upload it then... :-) Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From gose at mcs.anl.gov Mon Dec 29 23:31:35 2003 From: gose at mcs.anl.gov (Scott Gose) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:31:35 -0600 Subject: volunteer yum document In-Reply-To: References: <1072731720.1360.5.camel@agouza.soeterbroek> Message-ID: <20031229233135.GA20312@mcs.anl.gov> Joost, On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 05:08:25PM -0500, Edward C. Bailey wrote: > >>>>> "Joost" == Joost Soeterbroek writes: > > Joost> Hello all, I would like to volunteer to the fedora-docs project as a > Joost> technical writer/editor. I have already started a HOWTO/tutorial on > Joost> the topic of keeping multiple fedora systems up2date with yum. Would > Joost> this be useful for the project? > > Yes, that would be super -- thanks! > > Joost> Is there somewhere I can send or check in my XML sources I have so > Joost> far? > > Unfortunately, the project's CVS server is not yet online, so the best > thing would be to hold onto your document, and when you see us talking > about the new CVS server, ask how to upload it then... :-) Can you publish it locally for now? I'm interested in reading your document. > > Ed > -- > Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Scott Gose gose at mcs.anl.gov From paul at frields.com Tue Dec 30 00:47:18 2003 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:47:18 -0500 Subject: volunteer yum document In-Reply-To: <20031229233135.GA20312@mcs.anl.gov> References: <1072731720.1360.5.camel@agouza.soeterbroek> <20031229233135.GA20312@mcs.anl.gov> Message-ID: <1072745237.15715.1.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> > > Joost> Hello all, I would like to volunteer to the fedora-docs project as a > > Joost> technical writer/editor. I have already started a HOWTO/tutorial on > > Joost> the topic of keeping multiple fedora systems up2date with yum. Would > > Joost> this be useful for the project? > > > > Yes, that would be super -- thanks! > > > > Joost> Is there somewhere I can send or check in my XML sources I have so > > Joost> far? > > > > Unfortunately, the project's CVS server is not yet online, so the best > > thing would be to hold onto your document, and when you see us talking > > about the new CVS server, ask how to upload it then... :-) > > Can you publish it locally for now? I'm interested in reading your > document. And if you need any contribution for markup, or a second pair of eyes, feel free to send it my way. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From akbar501 at dslextreme.com Tue Dec 30 01:57:21 2003 From: akbar501 at dslextreme.com (Akbar S. Ahmed) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:57:21 -0800 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <3FF08239.5020104@scoco.be> References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> <3FF08239.5020104@scoco.be> Message-ID: <3FF0DB81.1000306@dslextreme.com> Jan Fabry wrote: > I think Fedora needs good installation and configuration manuals. > Without these, it will never be possible to get a good user base (unless > a majority of current Red Hat Linux users switch to Fedora). I think part of the publicly expressed idea behind Fedora is that it is for hobbyists, namely people who love to tinker with Linux and enjoy the challenge that Linux can offer. Also, Fedora is geered towards being an R&D platform for the RH engineers, which translates into lots of software that may or may not work. We'll see more of the R&D aspect come to light as Fedora progresses. That said, the very R&D nature of Fedora might not make it the best disto for newer users. - Akbar From gose at mcs.anl.gov Tue Dec 30 02:08:01 2003 From: gose at mcs.anl.gov (Scott Gose) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:08:01 -0600 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <3FF0DB81.1000306@dslextreme.com> References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> <3FF08239.5020104@scoco.be> <3FF0DB81.1000306@dslextreme.com> Message-ID: <20031230020801.GA21189@mcs.anl.gov> On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 05:57:21PM -0800, Akbar S. Ahmed wrote: > > > Jan Fabry wrote: > >I think Fedora needs good installation and configuration manuals. > >Without these, it will never be possible to get a good user base (unless > >a majority of current Red Hat Linux users switch to Fedora). > > I think part of the publicly expressed idea behind Fedora is that it is > for hobbyists, namely people who love to tinker with Linux and enjoy the > challenge that Linux can offer. > > Also, Fedora is geered towards being an R&D platform for the RH > engineers, which translates into lots of software that may or may not > work. We'll see more of the R&D aspect come to light as Fedora progresses. > > That said, the very R&D nature of Fedora might not make it the best > disto for newer users. Completely disagree. But I don't want to get into a long thread on many of your points here :-) Just because Fedora is more on the bleeding edge of releasing software than other distros doesn't mean we shouldn't document it well. This thread is about where that documentation should come from. > - Akbar > > > > > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Scott Gose gose at mcs.anl.gov From fedora at scoco.be Tue Dec 30 03:02:33 2003 From: fedora at scoco.be (Jan Fabry) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 04:02:33 +0100 Subject: Ideas for the translations Message-ID: <3FF0EAC9.9020100@scoco.be> [ sorry if this is posted twice - my fault ] Hello, I think it is time to do some research on how we should handle the translations. There were some messages about this in the past, but we should also look at other projects and how they handled it. I suggest you reply to this message with information about other translation efforts, so we can learn from them. I'll start with a description of the PHP Manual, since I spend some of my time there. The whole documentation [ http://php.net/manual ] is a DocBook document, split over many files. Every function is kept in a single file, and all those files are then merged in the build process. Many entities exist, especially for URL's. A summary of the directory tree, sorted for clarity: RFC/ -> internal discussion howto/ -> documentation for newcomers scripts/ -> scripts giving info about the manual images/ -> all images dtds/ -> the docbook XML 4.1.2 dtd, with some extensions entities/ -> all used entities dsssl/ -> DSSSL files, for converting the DocBook source xsl/ -> XSL files, for converting to some newer formats chm/ -> information to make CHM (Windows help) files htmlhelp/ -> same, but newer (I think) en/ -> the xml sources LICENSE -\ README --> Some info about the stuff you downloaded TODO -/ contacts.txt -> main contact for each translation Makefile[.in] -\ configure[.in] --> Need to explain these? manual.xml[.in] -> the main file, which holds everything together The main documentation tree resides in en/. Other translations use the same directory structure (filenames!) and entities (references!), but in their own directory (nl/, fr/, ...). If a file or entity is missing, the English version is used. When running ./configure, some scripts are run to fill up the missing entities, and create the manual.xml file. The makefile then executes (open)jade or other XML tools, depending on the requested output format. Because the transformation can take a long time (30-150 mins per format, about 6 formats, about 30 languages), the real site isn't updated that often. They want to change from the 'real' DocBook conversion to a homemade 'LiveDocs' project, that would convert the pages on-the-fly. All translations have their own mailinglist (phpdoc-nl at php.net, for example). CVS commits go to these mailinglists (the commits to the main en/ tree go to phpdoc at php.net). Bugs that are filed in the Documentation category also end up here. Normal discussions also take place in these mailinglists. All translators have CVS access to their directory tree, and to the main tree. This way, they can clean up errors in the main text as they find them while translating. The CVS tree can be viewed at [ http://cvs.php.net ]. Greetings, Jan Fabry From nagaraj at 1care.org Tue Dec 30 05:26:58 2003 From: nagaraj at 1care.org (NAGARAJ) Date: 30 Dec 2003 05:26:58 -0000 Subject: FEDORA PDF Message-ID: <20031230052658.4053.qmail@bom1.enmail.com> hai The main inconv: of fedora now is we users powerusers of linux are unable to find out or innnovate the Fedora only bcosa we are not getting the Any PDF MANUALS OR INSTALLATION GUIDE OR CUSTOMISATION GUIDES THAT KIND OF STUFF AS WE ARE AVAILABLE as in REDHAT LINUX 9; So if anyone is hjaving the Fedora PDF manauals please send me to maild id: nagaraj at 1care.org So that we can customise the Fedora how it works and what are the pros and cons between the RedhatLinux and Fedora new releases.. NAGARAJAN.C.H Senior Support Engineer FIRST SIGHT COMPUTING New Delhi http://www.firstsightcomputing.com http://www.1care.org E mail: nagaraj at 1care.org From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Tue Dec 30 08:17:23 2003 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 08:17:23 +0000 Subject: Ideas for the translations In-Reply-To: <3FF0EAC9.9020100@scoco.be> References: <3FF0EAC9.9020100@scoco.be> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031230081618.025c4788@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> At 03:02 30/12/2003, Jan Fabry wrote: >[ sorry if this is posted twice - my fault ] > >Hello, > >I think it is time to do some research on how we should handle the >translations. There were some messages about this in the past, but we >should also look at other projects and how they handled it. I suggest >you reply to this message with information about other translation >efforts, so we can learn from them. > > >I'll start with a description of the PHP Manual, since I spend some of >my time there. > >When running ./configure, some scripts are run to fill up the missing >entities, and create the manual.xml file. The makefile then executes >(open)jade or other XML tools, depending on the requested output format. >Because the transformation can take a long time (30-150 mins per format, >about 6 formats, about 30 languages), the real site isn't updated that >often. They want to change from the 'real' DocBook conversion to a >homemade 'LiveDocs' project, that would convert the pages on-the-fly. Hi Jan. I'm curious what you mean by 'LiveDocs'? Any further info please? regards DaveP. From fedora at scoco.be Tue Dec 30 11:29:19 2003 From: fedora at scoco.be (Jan Fabry) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:29:19 +0100 Subject: PHP Manual LiveDocs (Was: Ideas for the translations) In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031230081618.025c4788@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> References: <3FF0EAC9.9020100@scoco.be> <6.0.0.22.2.20031230081618.025c4788@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: <3FF1618F.5000502@scoco.be> Dave Pawson wrote: > > Hi Jan. I'm curious what you mean by 'LiveDocs'? > The PHP Manual is written in DocBook. DocBook gives you lots of tags and the conversion is done with DSSSL or XSL, but this has the drawback that compilation can take a long time. Because only a subset of these tags is actually used in the PHP Manual, someone had the idea of doing the conversion from DocBook XML to HTML by a PHP script. This is LiveDocs. At first, LiveDocs was only meant as a quick viewer for people working on the manual. Because the compilation step is monolitic, when you change one file now, you have to recompile the whole tree. With LiveDocs, you would only need to generate a small XML index file, and LiveDocs is then able to display the requested page, and all relevant links (previous, next, cross-links, ...). But then more features were added to LiveDocs (search, XHTML compatibility, ...) and now the plans are to do the whole online manual straight from LiveDocs. This would also give extra possibilities like user-specific viewings and fancy things like that. Some extra links: - LiveDocs homepage: [ http://thebrainroom.com/opensource/livedocs.php ] - LiveDocs CVS view: [ http://projects.thebrainroom.net:8008/oss/dir?d=livedocs ] - Discussion notes, see part 4, 'Buildsystem' for the discussion about LiveDocs [ http://cvs.php.net/co.php/phpdoc/RFC/2003_meeting_findings.txt?r=1.1 ] - Some info from Goba, the PHP Manual project leader [ http://news.php.net/article.php?group=php.doc&article=969357731 ] Greetings, Jan Fabry From dgonzo at optonline.net Tue Dec 30 12:38:44 2003 From: dgonzo at optonline.net (Daniel Gonzalez) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 07:38:44 -0500 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1072116777.4226.11667.camel@erato.phig.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031223105727.02584678@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <3FF03375.2000502@zder.net> <6.0.0.22.2.20031229181126.0257f4f0@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <6.0.0.22.2.20031229203636.0255fbd8@pop3.Nildram.co.uk> <20031229155418.000035f6@x141dysze075> Message-ID: <20031230073844.000028f3@x141dysze075> Ed- Thanks for the explanation. I don't have any experience writing documentation specific to Linux distributions, but I do write a lot of documentation for my job as an engineer in the phone/cable company. I want to volunteer my services in any way I can to the documentation project. So I'm posting this offer to the list in case anyone has any documentation that he/she may want proof-read. I installed Fedora Core 1 a couple of weeks ago, so I can physically work through any tutorials that will get submitted. BTW, I haven't touched a Red Hat distro since 6.0 and when the Fedora install was completed, I was amazed. It's come such a long way in such a short period of time. Anyway, hope I can assist Regards Dan Gonzalez On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:04:06 -0500 "Edward C. Bailey" wrote: > >>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel Gonzalez writes: > > Daniel> Sorry for intruding, but I'm a newcomer to this list and was > Daniel> reading the thread regarding Red Hat documentation and it not being > Daniel> open source. It seems that there is a "publisher's edition" of Red > Daniel> Hat docs that are being used right now... Could anyone here explain > Daniel> what is the difference between the official Red Hat docs and this > Daniel> publisher edition? > Daniel> http://linuxcentral.com/catalog/?prod_code=B000-352&id=C1C0aAmWPDXCs > > There are two components to the product you're seeing on that page: > > o A book written by two people unconnected with Red Hat > > o A two-CD "publisher's edition" of the Fedora Core 1 operating system > (built from the full FC1 edition by the Red Hat developers) > > The book is not related to the documentation I've been discussing on the > list in any way (other than they both discuss the use of a Linux operating > system). The two-CD set is related to the documentation being discussed > here only in that prior versions of the software was known as Red Hat > Linux, which is what the documentation was written to, uh, document. :-) > > Daniel> If I'm speaking out of my arse, please let me know > > Well, from here I can't tell if your backside was involved in this > discussion, but it was a valid question... :-) > > Ed > -- > Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From lsdr at lsdr.net Tue Dec 30 22:54:52 2003 From: lsdr at lsdr.net (Luiz Rocha) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:54:52 -0200 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <20031230020801.GA21189@mcs.anl.gov> References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3FF0DB81.1000306@dslextreme.com> <20031230020801.GA21189@mcs.anl.gov> Message-ID: <200312302055.01673.lsdr@lsdr.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > I think part of the publicly expressed idea behind Fedora is that it is > > for hobbyists, namely people who love to tinker with Linux and enjoy the > > challenge that Linux can offer. > > Just because Fedora is more on the bleeding edge of releasing software > than other distros doesn't mean we shouldn't document it well. I agree with Scott here. Just because Fedora is a bleeding edge distro, oriented towards hobbysts, that does not mean weak doccos, for hobbysts I understand no only Linux hackers but also Linux newbies. And being a RHEL R&D platform means to me that Fedora can, with caution, be used in production enviroment. Something that would also benefit with the avaliability of a good doc base. - -- Luiz Rocha -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/8gJBN2+4JlrxCYYRAvhpAJ4+mcmpKAPdya+WwLVrPQWXu02DKACbBR/u +/LWpqCdHqGkHqTrAwsDY+E= =cfq+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From akbar501 at dslextreme.com Wed Dec 31 07:45:49 2003 From: akbar501 at dslextreme.com (Akbar S. Ahmed) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:45:49 -0800 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <200312302055.01673.lsdr@lsdr.net> References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3FF0DB81.1000306@dslextreme.com> <20031230020801.GA21189@mcs.anl.gov> <200312302055.01673.lsdr@lsdr.net> Message-ID: <3FF27EAD.5030606@dslextreme.com> Luiz Rocha wrote: > And being a RHEL R&D platform means to me that Fedora can, with caution, be > used in production enviroment. Something that would also benefit with the > avaliability of a good doc base. Off the bat I'd like to say that I think good docs are a great idea. Fedora needs good docs. That goes without saying. On another note... I'll quote Red Hat staff here, "Fedora is not a production environment!" Maybe not exact but close enough. What I've expressed were views repeated of what I've heard from or read from Red Hat corp/staff. Fedora is an R&D platform. R&D means not stable (ask anyone with experience in an R&D division). You can disagree, and that's fine, but the facts are the facts. When asked which Linux distro to use by my company's clients, we say RHEL. It's stable, supported, and production quality. To repeat, if you want a stable production quality Linux then use RHEL. Other than RHEL, the only other production quality (server) Linuxes are Novell/Suse and Debian (Stable). If you doubt me, then ask one of the RH people to chime in. If they say that Fedora is a stable platform that is "suitable for production use" then I'll stand corrected. I have no problems with that. From the web: 1.) http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html The Fedora Project Users == Early adopters, enthusiasts, developers Red Hat Enterprise Linux == Mainstream production environments 2.) http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/03/11/21/1420242.shtml?tid=106&tid=110&tid=126&tid=163&tid=185&tid=187 Matthew Szulik said, "We hope that consumer-focused technologies will thrive and mature in the Fedora Project setting. When the code is production quality, Red Hat will make them available as part of a supported distribution." Note the "when the code is production quality..." statement. Sorry to keep this alive, Akbar From gose at mcs.anl.gov Wed Dec 31 15:46:39 2003 From: gose at mcs.anl.gov (Scott Gose) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:46:39 -0600 Subject: Documentation project status In-Reply-To: <3FF27EAD.5030606@dslextreme.com> References: <1072018060.2763.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3FF0DB81.1000306@dslextreme.com> <20031230020801.GA21189@mcs.anl.gov> <200312302055.01673.lsdr@lsdr.net> <3FF27EAD.5030606@dslextreme.com> Message-ID: <20031231154639.GB26848@mcs.anl.gov> Akbar, You insist on steering this thread off course don't you :-) This is not the correct forum for your views below. On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 11:45:49PM -0800, Akbar S. Ahmed wrote: > > > Luiz Rocha wrote: > > > And being a RHEL R&D platform means to me that Fedora can, with caution, > > be used in production enviroment. Something that would also benefit with > >the avaliability of a good doc base. > > Off the bat I'd like to say that I think good docs are a great idea. > Fedora needs good docs. That goes without saying. > > On another note... > > I'll quote Red Hat staff here, "Fedora is not a production environment!" > Maybe not exact but close enough. > > What I've expressed were views repeated of what I've heard from or read > from Red Hat corp/staff. Fedora is an R&D platform. R&D means not stable > (ask anyone with experience in an R&D division). You can disagree, and > that's fine, but the facts are the facts. > > When asked which Linux distro to use by my company's clients, we say > RHEL. It's stable, supported, and production quality. > > To repeat, if you want a stable production quality Linux then use RHEL. > > Other than RHEL, the only other production quality (server) Linuxes are > Novell/Suse and Debian (Stable). > > If you doubt me, then ask one of the RH people to chime in. If they say > that Fedora is a stable platform that is "suitable for production use" > then I'll stand corrected. I have no problems with that. > > From the web: > 1.) http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html > The Fedora Project Users == Early adopters, enthusiasts, developers > Red Hat Enterprise Linux == Mainstream production environments > > 2.) > http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/03/11/21/1420242.shtml?tid=106&tid=110&tid=126&tid=163&tid=185&tid=187 > > Matthew Szulik said, "We hope that consumer-focused technologies will > thrive and mature in the Fedora Project setting. When the code is > production quality, Red Hat will make them available as part of a > supported distribution." > > Note the "when the code is production quality..." statement. > > Sorry to keep this alive, > Akbar > > > > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Scott Gose gose at mcs.anl.gov