From johnsonm at redhat.com Mon Sep 22 15:34:42 2003 From: johnsonm at redhat.com (Michael K. Johnson) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:34:42 -0400 Subject: Fedora Project: Announcing New Direction Message-ID: <20030922113442.E21551@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Red Hat and Fedora Linux are pleased to announce an alignment of their mutually complementary core proficiencies leveraging them synergistically in the creation of the Fedora Project, a paradigm shift for Linux technology development and rolling early deployment models. We are <...> *thud* One two ... one two ... testing, is this thing on? Hello, this is, um, the Engineers speaking. We are still really excited about the project, but this time we have more than just dates. We hope fedora.redhat.com will answer lots of your questions, and are sure it will pose a few new ones. Why Fedora? Red Hat has a lot of experience in building solid dependable core distributions while the Fedora Linux Project has lots of experience in building effective infrastructure and policy to create many high quality add on packages. Both groups decided to merge the two projects and build outward using our shared experience, and to use the name "Fedora Project". We don't pretend the merge will be smooth or immediate, but we firmly believe that working with the Fedora Linux Project will get external projects and add-ons up and running better and faster than we could on our own and we are proud to be working with them. The Fedora Project is something special. It enables Red Hat and the community to work together to provide the community with rapid rolling releases and to get new technology into the hands of developers. With the solid establishment of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Red Hat now has a platform for predictable change and high quality support for customers, and for our ISV and IHV partners. Fedora is about the community, about cool new technologies, and extending existing Red Hat tools in a collaborative community. Our new up2date, for example, supports YUM and apt-get repositories. Fellow Fedorans, a new dawn is upon us, let us begin. Please note: The http://rhl.redhat.com/ web site has been renamed http://fedora.redhat.com/ and the mailing lists have all been renamed: rhl-list at redhat.com -> fedora-list at redhat.com rhl-beta-list at redhat.com -> fedora-test-list at redhat.com rhl-devel-list at redhat.com -> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com rhl-docs-list at redhat.com -> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com Your subscriptions have been preserved, moved over to the new names for the lists. michaelkjohnson "He that composes himself is wiser than he that composes a book." Linux Application Development -- Ben Franklin http://people.redhat.com/johnsonm/lad/ From alan at redhat.com Mon Sep 22 15:47:40 2003 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:47:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [pbl] Fedora Project: Announcing New Direction In-Reply-To: <20030922113442.E21551@devserv.devel.redhat.com> from "Michael K. Johnson" at Med 22, 2003 11:34:42 Message-ID: <200309221547.h8MFleI24539@devserv.devel.redhat.com> I'd lose the "um, " because it breaks the flow of the joke but thats me being pedantic. Looks fine From tfox at redhat.com Mon Sep 22 18:22:56 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:22:56 -0400 Subject: Developer and Documentation Guides Message-ID: <20030922182256.GC3526@redhat.com> The DocBook XML files for these guides are now in the fedora-docs module on the rhlinux.redhat.com CVS server. The instructions on http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ are correct except that the module name is fedora-docs. I am getting the site updated. Cheers, Tammy From notting at redhat.com Thu Sep 25 18:39:18 2003 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:39:18 -0400 Subject: Updated Fedora Core test release: Severn Message-ID: <20030925143918.A2519@devserv.devel.redhat.com> And now, the Fedora Project presents.... We're tired, we're droopy We're all a little loopy A Fedora Core Test Release Is invading your PC! New features - interesting! The code could use some testing That's why we are requesting new bug reports quickly! On our ftp site is the place where you will see The stuff that we've been working on since 1993! We're tired, we're droopy We're all a little loopy It's a Fedora Core Test Release Come and join the fun! (And now our song is done.) Yes, it's an update of SEVERN, the Fedora Core test release. As always, test releases are not intended for use on production environments. Use of test releases in production environments could lead to disastrous results, such as spontaneous musical theatre from your engineers. Be afraid. Problems with SEVERN should be reported via bugzilla, at: http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/ Please report bugs against 'Fedora Core', release 'test2'. Technical note: There are some issues with the SMP kernel; on SMP machines after installation, you may need to boot the uniprocessor kernel for stability. We'll have a fixed kernel in the next day or three; please update as soon as one is available. For more information on just what the Fedora Project and Fedora Core is, please see: http://fedora.redhat.com/ For discussion of SEVERN, send mail to: fedora-test-list-request at redhat.com with subscribe in the subject line. You can leave the body empty. Or see: https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list/ As always, you can get SEVERN at redhat.com, specifically: ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/beta/severn/ Or the following mirrors: North America: United States: - ftp://ftp.cse.buffalo.edu/pub/RedHat/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - http://redhat.secsup.org/beta/severn/ - ftp://mirrors.secsup.org/pub/linux/redhat/beta/severn/ - ftp://redhat.dulug.duke.edu/pub/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - ftp://ftp.linux.ncsu.edu/pub/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - http://www.gtlib.cc.gatech.edu/pub/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - ftp://ftp.gtlib.cc.gatech.edu/pub/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - rsync://rsync.gtlib.cc.gatech.edu/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - ftp://limestone.uoregon.edu/redhat/beta/severn/ Canada: - ftp://less.cogeco.net/pub/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - ftp://ftp.nrc.ca/pub/systems/linux/redhat/ftp.redhat.com/linux/beta/severn/ South America: Chile: - ftp://ftp.tecnoera.com/Linux/redhat-beta/severn/ Europe: Czech Republic: - ftp://sunsite.mff.cuni.cz/MIRRORS/ftp.redhat.com/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - rsync://sunsite.mff.cuni.cz/redhat/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - ftp://ultra.linux.cz/MIRRORS/ftp.redhat.com/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - ftp://ftp.linux.cz/pub/linux/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - ftp://ftp6.linux.cz/pub/linux/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ Estonia - ftp://redhat.linux.ee/pub/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ Germany: - ftp://ftp-stud.fht-esslingen.de/pub/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - ftp://ftp.tu-chemnitz.de/pub/linux/redhat-ftp/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - http://wftp.tu-chemnitz.de/pub/linux/redhat-ftp/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - ftp://ftp.uni-bayreuth.de/pub/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - ftp://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/Linux/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ Netherlands: - ftp://alviss.et.tudelft.nl/pub/redhat/beta/severn/ - ftp://ftp.quicknet.nl/pub/Linux/ftp.redhat.com/beta/severn/ United Kingdom: - http://zeniiia.linux.org.uk/pub/distributions/redhat/beta/severn/ - ftp://zeniiia.linux.org.uk/pub/distributions/redhat/beta/severn/ - rsync://zeniiia.linux.org.uk/ftp/pub/distributions/redhat/beta/severn/ Asia/Pacific: Australia: - http://planetmirror.com/pub/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - ftp://ftp.planetmirror.com/pub/redhat/linux/beta/severn/ - http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/redhat/linux/severn/ - ftp://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/redhat/linux/severn/ One additional feature provided by the Linux community is the availability of SEVERN via BitTorrent. http://torrent.dulug.duke.edu/severn2-binary-iso.torrent http://torrent.dulug.duke.edu/severn2-source-iso.torrent RPMS for Red Hat Linux 7.3 through 9 of BitTorrent are available from: http://torrent.dulug.duke.edu/btrpms/ Usage is simple: btdownloadcurses.py --url http://URL.torrent Allow incoming TCP 6881 - 6889 to join the torrent swarm. http://torrent.dulug.duke.edu/ From pauln at truemesh.com Sun Sep 28 08:16:48 2003 From: pauln at truemesh.com (Paul Nasrat) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:16:48 +0100 Subject: Anaconda customisation guide Message-ID: <20030928081647.GB19991@shitake.truemesh.com> This was brought up on fedora-test-list but never got moved. http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2003-September/msg01401.html An anaconda guide is listed on http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ already and I think it would be very worth while. I guess it'd be a good idea to brainstorm what should go in it. For those on anaconda-devel (I haven't been on it for a while), what are current FAQ's etc. There is probably a fair overlap with advanced kickstart usage. The common things I've done or thought about in no particular order are: 1) Incorporating updates into installer 2) Adding new kernel modules to an image 3) Adding new groups to comps.xml (maybe a nice way of editing it could be provided using pygtk and rhl.comps) 4) Adding new classes to the install (and making them fit in the gui) 5) Reskinning anaconda and the distro (what to replace) 6) Building a stripped down single CD install 7) Building a DVD Thoughts, comments, etc welcome. Paul From lsdr at lsdr.net Mon Sep 29 04:59:13 2003 From: lsdr at lsdr.net (Luiz Rocha) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 01:59:13 -0300 Subject: docs translation Message-ID: <200309290159.13551.lsdr@lsdr.net> Is here the best place to talk about translation of documentation (developer's guide, documentor's guide) or is in the fedora-devel list? -- Luiz Rocha From tfox at redhat.com Mon Sep 29 18:18:23 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:18:23 -0400 Subject: docs translation In-Reply-To: <200309290159.13551.lsdr@lsdr.net> References: <200309290159.13551.lsdr@lsdr.net> Message-ID: <20030929181823.GG30579@redhat.com> This would be the place. We currently don't have a process for it, but I would love to hear your ideas for it such as: 1. CVS location -- separate or in the same module as the original version 2. Method -- there are tools to convert from XML to PO and back to XML -- probably the best choice 3. Process for alert translators of new and changed content Cheers, Tammy On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 01:59:13AM -0300, Luiz Rocha wrote: > Is here the best place to talk about translation of documentation > (developer's guide, documentor's guide) or is in the fedora-devel list? > -- > Luiz Rocha > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From gavin.henry at magicfx.co.uk Mon Sep 29 19:58:12 2003 From: gavin.henry at magicfx.co.uk (G Henry) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:58:12 +0100 Subject: grep DocBook *.xml in setting up emacs Message-ID: <200309292058.13953.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, First post to this mailing list. Must say I am looking forward to the stable release of FC. Well, a bit about myself: 25 graduate engineer, from Aberdeen, Scotland. Constantly trying to study for my RHCE, but now everything has changed, don't know if I can afford an Enterprise copy, maybe just learn from the books what I can't else where. Setting up a linux support company in Aberdeen too, amonst over things. Anyway, I am trying to get emacs going for the docs project, but can't get past this bit: "Find the parent file for the group of DocBook files. You will recognize this file by the header .xml (where .xml is the parent file you found." I don't know where the parent file is or where to grep. Am I being stupid? Hope someone can put me straight. - -- Regards Trying to be a RHCE http://www.magicfx.co.uk http://www.suretecsystems.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/eI7UgNqd7Kng8UoRAqTOAJ0VfWK0JNMc6wY/oOb2hxtEVwpqaQCg58u8 s1UWRlqPKMMbED6euq80G2M= =Asb6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tfox at redhat.com Mon Sep 29 20:45:47 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:45:47 -0400 Subject: grep DocBook *.xml in setting up emacs In-Reply-To: <200309292058.13953.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk> References: <200309292058.13953.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030929204546.GB2950@redhat.com> On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 08:58:12PM +0100, G Henry wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi all, > First post to this mailing list. Must say I am looking forward to the stable > release of FC. > > Well, a bit about myself: > > 25 graduate engineer, from Aberdeen, Scotland. Constantly trying to study for > my RHCE, but now everything has changed, don't know if I can afford an > Enterprise copy, maybe just learn from the books what I can't else where. > > Setting up a linux support company in Aberdeen too, amonst over things. > > Anyway, I am trying to get emacs going for the docs project, but can't get > past this bit: > > "Find the parent file for the group of DocBook files. You will recognize this > file by the header An easy way to find this parent file is to use the command grep DocBook > *.xml. Once you find the parent file, open it in Emacs with the command emacs > .xml (where .xml is the parent file you found." > > I don't know where the parent file is or where to grep. Am I being stupid? > > > > Hope someone can put me straight. > > In the fedora-docs module, there is a directory for each manuals. So, for example, if you change to the documentation-guide directory, and execute the command: grep DocBook *.sgml at the bottom of the list, you will see: documentation-guide.xml: References: <200309292058.13953.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk> <20030929204546.GB2950@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1064881871.3492.13581.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 13:45, Tammy Fox wrote: > In the fedora-docs module, there is a directory for each manuals. So, > for example, if you change to the documentation-guide directory, and > execute the command: > > grep DocBook *.sgml Tammy asked me to hand out these special glasses ... *hands all of you a pair* ... and they turn that "sg" from above into an "x", like this: grep DocBook *.xml 'Course, we all knew that from the subject, but since this is new magic for many of use, we'll make sure to get the spell right. - Karsten > at the bottom of the list, you will see: > > documentation-guide.xml: > This means that the documentation-guide.xml file is the parent > file. The parent file is where entities are declared as well as all > the other included files if the document is broken up into multiple > files. > -- Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: +1.831.466.9664 kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: +1.831.818.9995 Red Hat Enterprise Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal Server -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- From tfox at redhat.com Tue Sep 30 03:00:01 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:00:01 -0400 Subject: grep DocBook *.xml in setting up emacs In-Reply-To: <1064881871.3492.13581.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <200309292058.13953.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk> <20030929204546.GB2950@redhat.com> <1064881871.3492.13581.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20030930030001.GA13417@redhat.com> On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 05:31:11PM -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 13:45, Tammy Fox wrote: > > In the fedora-docs module, there is a directory for each manuals. So, > > for example, if you change to the documentation-guide directory, and > > execute the command: > > > > grep DocBook *.sgml > > Tammy asked me to hand out these special glasses ... *hands all of you a > pair* ... and they turn that "sg" from above into an "x", like this: > > grep DocBook *.xml > > 'Course, we all knew that from the subject, but since this is new magic > for many of use, we'll make sure to get the spell right. > > - Karsten > Oops. Thanks Karsten. It is hard to keep what projects use SGML and what projects use XML straight sometimes. ;-) Tammy > > at the bottom of the list, you will see: > > > > documentation-guide.xml: > > > This means that the documentation-guide.xml file is the parent > > file. The parent file is where entities are declared as well as all > > the other included files if the document is broken up into multiple > > files. > > > > -- > Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: +1.831.466.9664 > kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: +1.831.818.9995 > Red Hat Enterprise Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal Server > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- From tfox at redhat.com Tue Sep 30 03:06:19 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:06:19 -0400 Subject: docs translation In-Reply-To: <3D97B713.3070408@terra.com.br> References: <200309290159.13551.lsdr@lsdr.net> <20030929181823.GG30579@redhat.com> <3D97B713.3070408@terra.com.br> Message-ID: <20030930030619.GB13417@redhat.com> On Sun, Sep 29, 2002 at 11:29:39PM -0300, Rodrigo Del C. Andrade wrote: > > Hello Tammy, Paul and all doc writters and translators. > First and foremost I wish to say that I'd never participated before > of any projects of this kind or even had any role on the RH community > whatsoever, but I am very willing to help and its never late to start, > so I'll add some cents in this to get the discussion going. Feel free to > hammer my feelings if you feel like it, I can bear it as long as its > good for the FC. > > Tammy Fox wrote: > >This would be the place. We currently don't have a process for it, but > >I would love to hear your ideas for it such as: > > > >1. CVS location -- separate or in the same module as the original version > > The same location has its advantages, but as long as we're talking > about diferent trees, so no translator would have write access to a > writer's doc and accidentally do some nasty thing. I know the cvs can be > "rewinded", but taking vacines is better than antibiotics, isnt it? > > Something like > > / > /en_docs (original) > /en_docs/burning_cds > ... > /es_docs > /es_docs/grabando_cds > ... > /pt_br_docs > /pt_br_dos/queimando_cds > > Etc. or the code for each language. > I am not a CVS expert, and my desk is buried in 3 feet of crap, so > what you think? > > For the RHEL docs, for each English module, there is a corresponding module for each language the English module is translated into. It works out well. We also us po files. As files change, the po files in the translation modules are updated so that the translators know to translate the new or changed content. Maybe each writer should be responsible for updating the po files like in software translations. Each translator could monitor the commits to module containing the po files she is responsible for. Of course, we need a CVS server that allows non-RH people to commit first -- we are still working on that. > >2. Method -- there are tools to convert from XML to PO and back to XML -- > >probably the best choice > > Posting these tools on Translations Project on fedora.redhat.com > with some, even if small, tutorial/quick guide/tips thingie would be a > start, I guess..... > Sure. Paul and Sarah are the people for this. I just know generally how it works. > >3. Process for alert translators of new and changed content > > hmm... The docs list? > Something that bothers me a lil more than this is actually defining > who's onto what. It would be a waste if 2 ppl get the same doc to > translate to the same language, without knowing of each others effort. > We gotta define something about that. > Yes. We need a way for people to volunteer for translations and a way to clearly mark that doc as taken. Other projects do this with a website that shows the progress and the owner. > Well, lets evolve this into a nice organized multi-cultural project! > Cheers!!! > > Vantroy > > > > > >Cheers, > >Tammy > > > >On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 01:59:13AM -0300, Luiz Rocha wrote: > > > >> Is here the best place to talk about translation of documentation > >>(developer's guide, documentor's guide) or is in the fedora-devel list? > >>-- > >>Luiz Rocha > >> > >> > >>-- > >>fedora-docs-list mailing list > >>fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > > > > > >-- > >fedora-docs-list mailing list > >fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > > > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- From lsdr at lsdr.net Tue Sep 30 04:55:42 2003 From: lsdr at lsdr.net (Luiz Rocha) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 01:55:42 -0300 Subject: docs translation In-Reply-To: <20030930030619.GB13417@redhat.com> References: <200309290159.13551.lsdr@lsdr.net> <3D97B713.3070408@terra.com.br> <20030930030619.GB13417@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200309300155.42146.lsdr@lsdr.net> This one came just after I sent my answer... > For the RHEL docs, for each English module, there is a corresponding > module for each language the English module is translated into. It > works out well. Let's keep things this way then. > Yes. We need a way for people to volunteer for translations and a way > to clearly mark that doc as taken. Other projects do this with a > website that shows the progress and the owner. This seems okay to me. I suggest that the person responsable for each translation initiative should be also responsable for marking docs as taken or not in the website. As for people volunteering for translations, the best way (I think) is to direct them to this list. Here we can tell them how it is done and who they may talk to before starting any translation. -- Luiz Rocha From lsdr at lsdr.net Tue Sep 30 04:56:47 2003 From: lsdr at lsdr.net (Luiz Rocha) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 01:56:47 -0300 Subject: docs translation In-Reply-To: <20030929181823.GG30579@redhat.com> References: <200309290159.13551.lsdr@lsdr.net> <20030929181823.GG30579@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200309300138.45879.lsdr@lsdr.net> > 1. CVS location -- separate or in the same module as the original version I think both would work. Is an organization matter. Once we get any of the going, will be fine. I checked out the fedora-docs tree and I think that something like common/ css/ en/ fr/ pt-br/ xsl/ would be okay. But this is my opinion only. How exactly this is done in RH? > 2. Method -- there are tools to convert from XML to PO and back to XML -- > probably the best choice Is the XML to PO back to XML dance really necessary? I mean, this may be functional for short, interface translations, but for long, descritive documents, I don't know. Personaly, I rather have a CVS diff with the changes in a document and grok the XML directly. I like having the full doc I'm translating in front of me. But that's just me, I could do the XML/PO dance, no problem. I will look for some tools to do it. > 3. Process for alert translators of new and changed content I think the best way is to always post in the fedora-docs list any changes made in any document. Translators them should update the translated versions. Each translation initiative should have someone responsable for it. In the apache-docs list, they had someone mailing every week a status of the project, listing which docs required revision/enhancements e etc... We could do something like that, including files that need translation and translations that require revision/update. -- Luiz Rocha From lsdr at lsdr.net Tue Sep 30 05:14:08 2003 From: lsdr at lsdr.net (Luiz Rocha) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:14:08 -0300 Subject: Website Message-ID: <200309300214.08352.lsdr@lsdr.net> The fedora.redhat.com/projects/translations/ page is currently pointing to the fedora-devel list, Shouldn't it be pointing to the fedora-docs instead? -- Luiz Rocha From kwade at redhat.com Tue Sep 30 08:20:24 2003 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: 30 Sep 2003 01:20:24 -0700 Subject: docs translation In-Reply-To: <200309300138.45879.lsdr@lsdr.net> References: <200309290159.13551.lsdr@lsdr.net> <20030929181823.GG30579@redhat.com> <200309300138.45879.lsdr@lsdr.net> Message-ID: <1064910024.3492.15027.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 21:56, Luiz Rocha wrote: > > 3. Process for alert translators of new and changed content > > I think the best way is to always post in the fedora-docs list any changes > made in any document. Translators them should update the translated versions. > Each translation initiative should have someone responsable for it. > > In the apache-docs list, they had someone mailing every week a status of the > project, listing which docs required revision/enhancements e etc... We could > do something like that, including files that need translation and > translations that require revision/update. Here's the starting point of an idea, which might get out of hand. :-P Have the fedora-docs-list receive the CVS commit notice, which would include log messages and the {unified,context} diff. The commit message could then contain information for the translators and other writers working on the module. One advantage to this is it helps make public the collaboration process, so we all can learn from and watch out for each other. If this ends up being too much noise on the list, we could have a separate fedora-docs-cvs-commits list for just those who need to actively watch. Collaborators can remain subscribed but choose to disable delivery until they know there are more changes coming. Alternately, a project leader with CVS admin control could have module commit messages sent to more granular groups; i.e. the Foo Guide commit messages would be sent to a group list of everyone working on or interested in the Foo Guide; this list of recipients would be maintained through the CVS tools instead of through a mailing list application. Only other downside that comes to mind -- commit messages might have to be long enough that you won't be able to put it all on one command line. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade : Tech Writer, RHCE : o: +1.831.466.9664 kwade at redhat.com : http://rhea.redhat.com/ : c: +1.831.818.9995 Red Hat Enterprise Applications : WAF, CMS, Portal Server -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- From lsdr at lsdr.net Tue Sep 30 15:03:25 2003 From: lsdr at lsdr.net (Luiz Rocha) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:03:25 -0300 Subject: docs translation In-Reply-To: <1064910024.3492.15027.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <200309290159.13551.lsdr@lsdr.net> <200309300138.45879.lsdr@lsdr.net> <1064910024.3492.15027.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200309301203.25679.lsdr@lsdr.net> > Here's the starting point of an idea, which might get out of hand. :-P > > Have the fedora-docs-list receive the CVS commit notice, which would > include log messages and the {unified,context} diff. The commit message > could then contain information for the translators and other writers > working on the module. +1 on that, I really liked. I think this will work out right. > If this ends up being too much noise on the list, we could have a > separate fedora-docs-cvs-commits list for just those who need to > actively watch. Collaborators can remain subscribed but choose to > disable delivery until they know there are more changes coming. Wow, a backup plan! I love community! :) But I think this won't be necessary. At least for a while. Maybe if we get mass submission of docs, tutorials et cetera, but not for now. Of course, regular contributors (not only translators) would have to sign it, but I believe it will have a low-to-moderate traffic. And translation collaborators can even not subscribe the fedora-docs-cvs-commits list. The translation leader can alert each one every time their doc gets updated. -- Luiz Rocha From notting at redhat.com Tue Sep 30 15:09:52 2003 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:09:52 -0400 Subject: Website In-Reply-To: <200309300214.08352.lsdr@lsdr.net>; from lsdr@lsdr.net on Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 02:14:08AM -0300 References: <200309300214.08352.lsdr@lsdr.net> Message-ID: <20030930110952.H13840@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Luiz Rocha (lsdr at lsdr.net) said: > The fedora.redhat.com/projects/translations/ page is currently pointing to > the fedora-devel list, Shouldn't it be pointing to the fedora-docs instead? Not really, it applies to translations of the software too. Bill From ed at redhat.com Tue Sep 30 15:44:35 2003 From: ed at redhat.com (Edward C. Bailey) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:44:35 -0400 Subject: docs translation In-Reply-To: <1064910024.3492.15027.camel@erato.phig.org> (Karsten Wade's message of "30 Sep 2003 01:20:24 -0700") References: <200309290159.13551.lsdr@lsdr.net> <20030929181823.GG30579@redhat.com> <200309300138.45879.lsdr@lsdr.net> <1064910024.3492.15027.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: >>>>> "Karsten" == Karsten Wade writes: ... Karsten> Have the fedora-docs-list receive the CVS commit notice, which Karsten> would include log messages and the {unified,context} diff. The Karsten> commit message could then contain information for the translators Karsten> and other writers working on the module. ... I use this for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux release notes, and it is very handle to see who else is doing things to the module... ... Karsten> If this ends up being too much noise on the list, we could have a Karsten> separate fedora-docs-cvs-commits list for just those who need to Karsten> actively watch. Collaborators can remain subscribed but choose to Karsten> disable delivery until they know there are more changes coming. This sounds best -- the commit messages can quickly become overwhelming... ... Karsten> Only other downside that comes to mind -- commit messages might Karsten> have to be long enough that you won't be able to put it all on one Karsten> command line. :) ... The script that we use to send the messages (can't remember the name ATM) has a fair bit of flexibility; we should be able to cut it down to something reasonable... :-) Truth be told, for this kind of situation, I wonder if the commits-list really needs full diffs, or could just get by with a message containing a well-written, informative log message (hint, hint)... ;-) That way, people interested in that particular document would know something has changed, and could update their working copy to get the details... Ed -- Ed Bailey Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/ From tfox at redhat.com Tue Sep 30 17:35:57 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:35:57 -0400 Subject: Website In-Reply-To: <20030930110952.H13840@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200309300214.08352.lsdr@lsdr.net> <20030930110952.H13840@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20030930173557.GH13417@redhat.com> On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 11:09:52AM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Luiz Rocha (lsdr at lsdr.net) said: > > The fedora.redhat.com/projects/translations/ page is currently pointing to > > the fedora-devel list, Shouldn't it be pointing to the fedora-docs instead? > > Not really, it applies to translations of the software too. > > Bill > It should probably be clarified to point to fedora-devel-list for software translations and fedora-docs-list for documentation translation since it seems like we have a pretty good thread going here about docs translations. I'll put that on my TODO list. Tam From tfox at redhat.com Tue Sep 30 17:37:14 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:37:14 -0400 Subject: docs translation In-Reply-To: <3D97B713.3070408@terra.com.br> References: <200309290159.13551.lsdr@lsdr.net> <20030929181823.GG30579@redhat.com> <3D97B713.3070408@terra.com.br> Message-ID: <20030930173714.GI13417@redhat.com> On Sun, Sep 29, 2002 at 11:29:39PM -0300, Rodrigo Del C. Andrade wrote: > > Hello Tammy, Paul and all doc writters and translators. > First and foremost I wish to say that I'd never participated before > of any projects of this kind or even had any role on the RH community > whatsoever, but I am very willing to help and its never late to start, > so I'll add some cents in this to get the discussion going. Feel free to > hammer my feelings if you feel like it, I can bear it as long as its > good for the FC. > > Tammy Fox wrote: > >This would be the place. We currently don't have a process for it, but > >I would love to hear your ideas for it such as: > > > >1. CVS location -- separate or in the same module as the original version > > The same location has its advantages, but as long as we're talking > about diferent trees, so no translator would have write access to a > writer's doc and accidentally do some nasty thing. I know the cvs can be > "rewinded", but taking vacines is better than antibiotics, isnt it? > > Something like > > / > /en_docs (original) > /en_docs/burning_cds > ... > /es_docs > /es_docs/grabando_cds > ... > /pt_br_docs > /pt_br_dos/queimando_cds > > Etc. or the code for each language. > I am not a CVS expert, and my desk is buried in 3 feet of crap, so > what you think? > > I was thinking that since we already have the fedora-docs module, we would having fedora-docs- modules for the translations. > >2. Method -- there are tools to convert from XML to PO and back to XML -- > >probably the best choice > > Posting these tools on Translations Project on fedora.redhat.com > with some, even if small, tutorial/quick guide/tips thingie would be a > start, I guess..... > > >3. Process for alert translators of new and changed content > > hmm... The docs list? > Something that bothers me a lil more than this is actually defining > who's onto what. It would be a waste if 2 ppl get the same doc to > translate to the same language, without knowing of each others effort. > We gotta define something about that. > > Well, lets evolve this into a nice organized multi-cultural project! > Cheers!!! > > Vantroy > > > > > >Cheers, > >Tammy > > > >On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 01:59:13AM -0300, Luiz Rocha wrote: > > > >> Is here the best place to talk about translation of documentation > >>(developer's guide, documentor's guide) or is in the fedora-devel list? > >>-- > >>Luiz Rocha > >> > >> > >>-- > >>fedora-docs-list mailing list > >>fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > > > > > >-- > >fedora-docs-list mailing list > >fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > > > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- From tfox at redhat.com Tue Sep 30 17:44:31 2003 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:44:31 -0400 Subject: docs translation In-Reply-To: <200309300138.45879.lsdr@lsdr.net> References: <200309290159.13551.lsdr@lsdr.net> <20030929181823.GG30579@redhat.com> <200309300138.45879.lsdr@lsdr.net> Message-ID: <20030930174430.GJ13417@redhat.com> On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 01:56:47AM -0300, Luiz Rocha wrote: > > 1. CVS location -- separate or in the same module as the original version > > I think both would work. Is an organization matter. Once we get any of the > going, will be fine. > > I checked out the fedora-docs tree and I think that something like > > common/ > css/ > en/ > fr/ > pt-br/ > xsl/ > > would be okay. But this is my opinion only. How exactly this is done in RH? > Separate modules per language is better so everyone doesn't have to check out all the languages. The bigger the docs get, the more diskspace this is going to take. > > 2. Method -- there are tools to convert from XML to PO and back to XML -- > > probably the best choice > > Is the XML to PO back to XML dance really necessary? > No. It is not necessary, but our internal RH translators have translated using both methods and feel that using PO files is a superior method. XML to PO to XML has some advantages such as not marking computeroutputs as text to be translated since it is direct output from a configuration file or source code. Another advantage is that it marks content as fuzzy, which helps if someone just changes a few words in the master verson. I'm sure Paul or Sarah could expand on the benefits. > I mean, this may be functional for short, interface translations, but for > long, descritive documents, I don't know. > Our RHEL docs are very long, and it works for them. > Personaly, I rather have a CVS diff with the changes in a document and grok > the XML directly. I like having the full doc I'm translating in front of me. > But that's just me, I could do the XML/PO dance, no problem. > > I will look for some tools to do it. > > > 3. Process for alert translators of new and changed content > > I think the best way is to always post in the fedora-docs list any changes > made in any document. Translators them should update the translated versions. > Each translation initiative should have someone responsable for it. > I like Karsten's suggestions of having commit messages go to this list and maybe a different list if the traffic gets annoying. Ed's idea to not show the diff is a good one as well. If we use a different CVS server than the current one we are using, we could change the syncmail script. If we share with devel, I don't think they are going to want that. Of course, I can also setup a separate CVSROOT for us on the same server and use a different syncmail. Tammy > In the apache-docs list, they had someone mailing every week a status of the > project, listing which docs required revision/enhancements e etc... We could > do something like that, including files that need translation and > translations that require revision/update. > > -- > Luiz Rocha > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list --