From NeoAndersn007 at aol.com Fri Jul 2 16:49:37 2004 From: NeoAndersn007 at aol.com (NeoAndersn007 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:49:37 EDT Subject: File System Check Error....HELP!! Message-ID: hello, Im new here so if this has been asked before sorry but Ive tried everything else. I was trying to get my old harddrive, CD-Drive, and RAM stick in my computer running on Fedora Core 2. None of them worked and I had a terrible time getting my computer to even startup. After I got it to work it get me the following error which I can't figure out how to fix: fsck.ext3: Disk write-protected; Use the -n option to do a read-only check of the device. Read-only file system while trying to open /dev/hda2 *** An error occured during the file system check *** Dropping you to a shell; the system will reboot *** when you leave the shell Give root password for maintenance (or type Control-D to continue) (Repair filesystem) 1 # I have tried reconnecting everything, taking out my RAM and putting it back in, disconnecting power cord for long periods of time, re-installing fedora, and editing the bootup commands. nothing seems to be working, help!!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul at frields.com Fri Jul 2 17:22:53 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:22:53 -0400 Subject: File System Check Error....HELP!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088788973.4497.1.camel@berlin.east.gov> On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 12:49, NeoAndersn007 at aol.com wrote: > hello, > Im new here so if this has been asked before sorry but Ive tried > everything else. I was trying to get my old harddrive, CD-Drive, and > RAM stick in my computer running on Fedora Core 2. None of them worked > and I had a terrible time getting my computer to even startup. After I > got it to work it get me the following error which I can't figure out > how to fix: [...snip...] You have the wrong list. The fedora-docs-list is for discussion of Fedora documentation. For help with Fedora technical problems, try using the fedora-list instead. Here's where you can find more information and the archives, which you should search before posting: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list/ Good luck and best wishes. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From NeoAndersn007 at aol.com Fri Jul 2 17:25:51 2004 From: NeoAndersn007 at aol.com (NeoAndersn007 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:25:51 EDT Subject: File System Check Error....HELP!! Message-ID: <5b.5295bb77.2e16f49f@aol.com> ok thanks I hope i can get this figured out soon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Fri Jul 2 17:37:58 2004 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:37:58 +0100 Subject: documentation request? Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040702183551.02e84f38@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> Unsure even asking about this one. Tomcat is an apache project, sort of a browser on steroids. They've recently gone from 4.x to 5.0x, and the documentation has gone from fair to downright ..... poor. I've just spent two days trying to figure it out. Hoping there might be someone willing to help me throw a minimum document set together? Except.... tomcat isn't part of the Fedora core distro. Comments anyone? regards DaveP From cb_systeam at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 18:19:03 2004 From: cb_systeam at hotmail.com (Christiaan Bos) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:19:03 +0200 Subject: doesn't reboot Message-ID: Hello, I have installed Fedora Core 2 on a Compaq Proliant 1600. But it doesn't reboot. It stop sometimes by unmounting filesystem and sometimes it gives many bad character. and I must it reboot with the power button. As it have booted, it is a stable system. only I wanted it to reboot from my other computers. When i do it install, it don't go with the rest sometimes, and must I reboot with the power button. And I have to go with the begin. After the install, I have the keyboard unplugged. and it is now a stable system. I can do all with it, but only he doesn't reboot. Can anyone help me? Or can anyone tell me wat is the problem? Sorry for my bad english. Christiaan Bos _________________________________________________________________ MSN Zoeken helpt je om de gekste dingen te vinden! http://search.msn.nl From paul at frields.com Fri Jul 2 19:21:33 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:21:33 -0400 Subject: doesn't reboot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088796092.4497.4.camel@berlin.east.gov> On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 14:19, Christiaan Bos wrote: > I have installed Fedora Core 2 on a Compaq Proliant 1600. > But it doesn't reboot. It stop sometimes by unmounting filesystem and > sometimes it gives many bad character. and I must it reboot with the power > button. > As it have booted, it is a stable system. > only I wanted it to reboot from my other computers. [...snip...] [...snip...] You have the wrong list. The fedora-docs-list is for discussion of Fedora documentation. For help with Fedora technical problems, try using the fedora-list instead. Here's where you can find more information and the archives, which you should search before posting: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list/ Good luck and best wishes. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Fri Jul 2 19:32:03 2004 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: documentation request? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040702183551.02e84f38@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040702193203.17601.qmail@web8203.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Dave Pawson wrote: > Unsure even asking about this one. > > Tomcat is an apache project, sort of a browser > on steroids. its a reference implementation of j2ee on the server side. nothing to do with a browser > > They've recently gone from 4.x to 5.0x, and the > documentation has gone from fair to downright ..... > poor. > > I've just spent two days trying to figure it out. > > Hoping there might be someone willing to help me > throw a minimum document set together? > > Except.... > tomcat isn't part of the Fedora core distro. > you might want to suggest this to discuss at en.tldp.org instead of fedora regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Fri Jul 2 20:54:24 2004 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:54:24 +0100 Subject: documentation request? In-Reply-To: <20040702193203.17601.qmail@web8203.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040702183551.02e84f38@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> <20040702193203.17601.qmail@web8203.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040702215356.02e78a20@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> At 20:32 02/07/2004, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >you might want to suggest this to discuss at en.tldp.org >instead of fedora Any particular reason? From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Fri Jul 2 21:50:28 2004 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: documentation request? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040702215356.02e78a20@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040702215028.61864.qmail@web8202.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Dave Pawson wrote: > At 20:32 02/07/2004, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >you might want to suggest this to > discuss at en.tldp.org > >instead of fedora > > Any particular reason? > > because this is a general lack of documentation and not fedora specific. regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Sat Jul 3 14:17:31 2004 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 15:17:31 +0100 Subject: documentation request? In-Reply-To: <20040702215028.61864.qmail@web8202.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040702215356.02e78a20@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> <20040702215028.61864.qmail@web8202.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040703124938.02dd2cb0@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> At 22:50 02/07/2004, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Any particular reason? > > > > > >because this is a general lack of documentation and >not fedora specific. And the fact that I chose to write for Fedora? Not some other org? You are ignoring my original question, so I'll reply in kind to your further comments. DaveP From paul at frields.com Sat Jul 3 16:54:31 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 12:54:31 -0400 Subject: documentation request? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040703124938.02dd2cb0@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040702215356.02e78a20@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> <20040702215028.61864.qmail@web8202.mail.in.yahoo.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20040703124938.02dd2cb0@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> Message-ID: <1088873671.5670.35.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> On Sat, 2004-07-03 at 10:17, Dave Pawson wrote: > > > Any particular reason? > > > >because this is a general lack of documentation and > >not fedora specific. > > And the fact that I chose to write for Fedora? > Not some other org? > > You are ignoring my original question, so I'll > reply in kind to your further comments. Dave's original question was that he was looking for help putting some docs together, which is not the same as declaring he wanted to make this work part of the official FDP roster. He said as much in his post, and merely asked for "comments," although I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) "comments" == "offers to help" == "attaboys" != "good idea for FDP." There's no reason he can't look for help here as well as TLDP. Let's also remember the two groups are complementary, not exclusive of each other. Using the FDP's methods or toolset is neither here nor there. Moreover, one can write docs based on FC, and those can still be largely useful for any Linux distribution. The FDP and TLDP should *never* be in competition with each other, except insofar as it might spur someone to get good docs out more quickly. ;-) Rahul is right in that this should not be part of FDP work at this time, though. The stated goal of the FDP (from the Web site), reads: "The goal of the Docs Project is to create easy-to-follow, task-based documentation for Fedora Core users and developers." If the product doesn't ship with the distro, given the current paucity of official documentation, we should be spending time on other subjects instead. I'll start another thread about a priority list and/or schedule for the docs we should be working on currently, in the hopes that Karsten can give us some ideas, since Tammy's out. Perhaps that will give all the eager beavers around here some *work* to chew on! ;-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From paul at frields.com Sat Jul 3 17:13:20 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:13:20 -0400 Subject: Schedule/priorities Message-ID: <1088874800.5670.55.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Karsten, Since Tammy is currently out, would you like to step in and talk about projects that are either partly completed or need to be started, and in what order we might want to tackle them? We have a solid albeit small crew who, it seems, would probably like to start on some "real" FC documentation. (At least I hope so... the list has been rather quiet of late.) I would guess that a big part of that would be making some decisions on tutorials that are badly needed, rather than waiting for someone to walk in and suggest them. Some of my suggestions: - Installation guide? What's the status currently? Need help? - Setting up a local mirror for FTP/HTTP/NFS installation and system-intall-packages (yes, much of the former is in the anaconda docs, but it needs a more newbie-friendly home) - Setting up said mirror for provision of updates through up2date (as opposed to the manual yum/apt stuff) - General documentation of binutils and other command-line stuff for the masses (Done already in official RH docs, but we need new, clean-room versions for GFDL) Maybe my "targeting system" is a little off here. My interest lies in making Fedora Core accessible to Joe Newbie, while other people here might be particularly averse to that line of thinking. Back when I used Red Hat Linux, I always pointed people to the official Red Hat guides, because they were darn good, solid docs. They taught one to take advantage of the many nice ease-of-use facilities available in the distro, while still encouraging digging underneath if one were so inclined. I want people starting to use Fedora Core to have some of the same advantages I feel I had using Red Hat Linux, without having to resort to forking out a lot of cash to get a book that in large part goes over the same type of material. If anyone thinks I am way off base, say so. (You can't scare me, I'm a parent!) :-D -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Sat Jul 3 17:13:51 2004 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: documentation request? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040703124938.02dd2cb0@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040703171351.23006.qmail@web8206.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Dave Pawson wrote: > At 22:50 02/07/2004, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > Any particular reason? > > > > > > > > > >because this is a general lack of documentation and > >not fedora specific. > > And the fact that I chose to write for Fedora? > Not some other org? > > You are ignoring my original question, so I'll > reply in kind to your further comments. > Please... I was suggesting that since this is more general documentation Linux documentation project would be a better place for this. If you choose to write for fedora and if its generic enough it can still be useful fo a wider audience. I wasnt ignoring your original question at all. regards Rahul __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pnasrat at redhat.com Sun Jul 4 07:47:47 2004 From: pnasrat at redhat.com (Paul Nasrat) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 03:47:47 -0400 Subject: Schedule/priorities In-Reply-To: <1088874800.5670.55.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> References: <1088874800.5670.55.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <20040704074746.GA15302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sat, Jul 03, 2004 at 01:13:20PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Karsten, > - Setting up a local mirror for FTP/HTTP/NFS installation and > system-intall-packages (yes, much of the former is in the anaconda docs, > but it needs a more newbie-friendly home) I'd also like to spend some time on getting the anaconda docs up to FC2, or at least adding additions. I'd also like to see them in docbook - who had the wiki->docbook converter stuff? > - Setting up said mirror for provision of updates through up2date (as > opposed to the manual yum/apt stuff) That is doing yum-arch or genhdlist surely, although the common metadata project may change this. I'd just ensure that it's obvious the step from yum-arch and adding your yum line to /etc/sysconfig/sources. Paul From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Sun Jul 4 07:55:36 2004 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 08:55:36 +0100 Subject: documentation request? In-Reply-To: <1088873671.5670.35.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> References: <6.1.0.6.2.20040702215356.02e78a20@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> <20040702215028.61864.qmail@web8202.mail.in.yahoo.com> <6.1.0.6.2.20040703124938.02dd2cb0@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> <1088873671.5670.35.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040704085415.02dd45c8@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> At 17:54 03/07/2004, Paul W. Frields wrote: >Rahul is right in that this should not be part of FDP work at this time, >though. The stated goal of the FDP (from the Web site), reads: "The goal >of the Docs Project is to create easy-to-follow, task-based >documentation for Fedora Core users and developers." My apologies folks. I was ignoring this. > If the product >doesn't ship with the distro, given the current paucity of official >documentation, we should be spending time on other subjects instead. Fair comment. I withdraw my request. regards DaveP From hobbit at aloss.ukuu.org.uk Sun Jul 4 09:55:49 2004 From: hobbit at aloss.ukuu.org.uk (Telsa Gwynne) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:55:49 +0100 Subject: Elements of Style and the documentation-guide In-Reply-To: <1088011871.2350.13.camel@berlin.east.gov> References: <1088011871.2350.13.camel@berlin.east.gov> Message-ID: <20040704095549.GD13133@www.pagan.org.uk> On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 01:31:11PM -0400 or thereabouts, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > In addition, or as an alternative, to EoS, perhaps there should be some > guidelines that have been useful to the Red Hat staff in preparing their > official RHL and RHEL documentation over the years. I have found those > guides consistently clear, concise, and informative, and I would hope > that FDP products would be of similar quality. By comparison, a lot of > the documentation on the Web is poorly written, and often lapses into > informalities, colloquialism, unhelpful jargon, and vague generalities. > On the other hand, in many cases those materials will form the basis for > future FDP work, so FDP content guidelines might be very useful as time > goes on. I have a copy of Elements of Style. I am not over-fond of it, but that might just be because I am from the UK and thus more used to the Oxford Guide to Style and Fowler's Modern English Usage. Or it could be because I regularly do things of which EoS disapproves :) One thing that Elements of Style doesn't have, which might be worth bearing in mind, is detail on how to write for translation. We have a section about this in the GNOME Documentation Project Style Guide (that title, btw, is probably a good example of how not to write for translation: five might-be-nouns, might-be- something-else words in a row :)) http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/locale-5.html There are twenty topics covered there, with rules, exceptions, bad examples and rewritten sentences. They range from some which are good practice in any technical documentation to others which look surprising unless you are familiar with how other languages say things. I believe there are sister mailing lists to this one which are for translators. They may have other suggestions to add to that lot. Or there may be a more well-known one. I just know about this one because it's a Gnome one. I assume it is likely that at least parts of the documentation written by people on this list will end up being translated. So if you are looking for guidelines, it might be worth bearing these guidelines in mind too. Telsa From paul at frields.com Sun Jul 4 13:31:31 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:31:31 -0400 Subject: Elements of Style and the documentation-guide In-Reply-To: <20040704095549.GD13133@www.pagan.org.uk> References: <1088011871.2350.13.camel@berlin.east.gov> <20040704095549.GD13133@www.pagan.org.uk> Message-ID: <1088947891.25143.10.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> On Sun, 2004-07-04 at 05:55, Telsa Gwynne wrote: [...snip...] > http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/locale-5.html > > There are twenty topics covered there, with rules, exceptions, > bad examples and rewritten sentences. They range from some which > are good practice in any technical documentation to others which > look surprising unless you are familiar with how other languages > say things. [...snip...] Excellent points all, and thank you for the link. This guide mentions a lot of ways to correct the poor style that afflicts a lot of Linux documentation on the Web. I glanced over the GNOME guide and found references to a number of peeves which it is designed to prevent. I don't see an easy way of including its contents other than in whole (which is not a problem given that it is licensed under the GFDL), but since they're very complete in their current form that might be the most advisable strategy. Perhaps this calls for a "part" organization in a more comprehensive Fedora Style Guide, which might wrap up several other guides such as the GNOME guide you mention. I picked EoS mostly due to its copyright status in the U.S., and, I have to admit, my personal feelings for the book. There didn't seem to be much in it which would be odious to anyone, but certainly it's still merely a "guide," not "law." :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From dpawson at nildram.co.uk Thu Jul 8 18:50:44 2004 From: dpawson at nildram.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:50:44 +0100 Subject: Tomcat Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040708194911.02e01890@pop3.gotadsl.co.uk> Prowling around, I found: http://cymulacrum.net/writings/tomcat5/book1.html Very well written IMHO, and up to date. I should be getting the docbook source soon. I'll forward it to .... Tammy, hey come back we miss you :-) Karsten? Do you have CVS rights? regards DaveP From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 13 21:29:27 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:29:27 -0700 Subject: Elements of Style and the documentation-guide In-Reply-To: <1088947891.25143.10.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> References: <1088011871.2350.13.camel@berlin.east.gov> <20040704095549.GD13133@www.pagan.org.uk> <1088947891.25143.10.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1089754166.18785.91.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2004-07-04 at 06:31, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sun, 2004-07-04 at 05:55, Telsa Gwynne wrote: > [...snip...] > > http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/locale-5.html > > > > There are twenty topics covered there, with rules, exceptions, > > bad examples and rewritten sentences. They range from some which > > are good practice in any technical documentation to others which > > look surprising unless you are familiar with how other languages > > say things. > [...snip...] > > Excellent points all, and thank you for the link. This guide mentions a > lot of ways to correct the poor style that afflicts a lot of Linux > documentation on the Web. I glanced over the GNOME guide and found > references to a number of peeves which it is designed to prevent. I > don't see an easy way of including its contents other than in whole > (which is not a problem given that it is licensed under the GFDL), but > since they're very complete in their current form that might be the most > advisable strategy. Perhaps this calls for a "part" organization in a > more comprehensive Fedora Style Guide, which might wrap up several other > guides such as the GNOME guide you mention. Perhaps it should be "Fedora Documentation Style Reference Set" ... or something similar which denotes a collection of style references that are considered canonical or argument-ending references. > I picked EoS mostly due to its copyright status in the U.S., and, I have > to admit, my personal feelings for the book. There didn't seem to be > much in it which would be odious to anyone, but certainly it's still > merely a "guide," not "law." :-) Agreed. One of the important things about knowing style rules is knowing when to break them, with intention. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 13 22:18:50 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:18:50 -0700 Subject: Schedule/priorities In-Reply-To: <1088874800.5670.55.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> References: <1088874800.5670.55.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1089757129.18785.140.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2004-07-03 at 10:13, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Karsten, > > Since Tammy is currently out, would you like to step in and talk about > projects that are either partly completed or need to be started, and in > what order we might want to tackle them? We have a solid albeit small > crew who, it seems, would probably like to start on some "real" FC > documentation. (At least I hope so... the list has been rather quiet of > late.) I would guess that a big part of that would be making some > decisions on tutorials that are badly needed, rather than waiting for > someone to walk in and suggest them. Ha! You called out to me when _I_ was out of touch. I'm just back from a couple of unexpected weeks out. I'm catching up on the list, and will get back here soon. - Karsten > > Some of my suggestions: > - Installation guide? What's the status currently? Need help? > - Setting up a local mirror for FTP/HTTP/NFS installation and > system-intall-packages (yes, much of the former is in the anaconda docs, > but it needs a more newbie-friendly home) > - Setting up said mirror for provision of updates through up2date (as > opposed to the manual yum/apt stuff) > - General documentation of binutils and other command-line stuff for the > masses (Done already in official RH docs, but we need new, clean-room > versions for GFDL) > > Maybe my "targeting system" is a little off here. My interest lies in > making Fedora Core accessible to Joe Newbie, while other people here > might be particularly averse to that line of thinking. Back when I used > Red Hat Linux, I always pointed people to the official Red Hat guides, > because they were darn good, solid docs. They taught one to take > advantage of the many nice ease-of-use facilities available in the > distro, while still encouraging digging underneath if one were so > inclined. > > I want people starting to use Fedora Core to have some of the same > advantages I feel I had using Red Hat Linux, without having to resort to > forking out a lot of cash to get a book that in large part goes over the > same type of material. > > If anyone thinks I am way off base, say so. (You can't scare me, I'm a > parent!) :-D > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From sp at elte.hu Wed Jul 14 04:21:01 2004 From: sp at elte.hu (Sulyok Peti) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:21:01 +0200 Subject: HTML encoding Message-ID: <1089778861.7820.5.camel@sutty.mshome.net> Does anybody know why are the generated HTML pages encoded to ISO-8859-1? I think UTF-8 would be better, because it is the default encoding in Fedora and GNOME2. Is it possible to change this setting without hacking xmlto? Peti -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ez az ?zenetr?sz digit?lis al??r?ssal van ell?tva URL: From jaider at deltaned.nl Wed Jul 14 14:59:56 2004 From: jaider at deltaned.nl (Jaider Viola - Deltaned) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:59:56 +0200 Subject: KISS firewall + iptables Message-ID: <004701c469b3$39e41d50$bb7ba8c0@deltanedwukabv> Hi, I try to install on my fedora core 2 server a KISS firewall. The firewall is installed without any problem but when I try to start the kiss firewall I get the follow: Since the ip_tables, ipt_state, and/or ipt_multiport modules do not exist, KISS can not function. Firewall script aborted! I do: chkconfig --list | grep -E "iptables|ipchains" and get the follow output: iptables 0:off 1:off 2:on 3:on 4:on 5:on 6:off Somebody have tips to get KISS working to secure my web machine? Thanks Jaider From paul at frields.com Wed Jul 14 17:17:17 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:17:17 -0400 Subject: KISS firewall + iptables In-Reply-To: <004701c469b3$39e41d50$bb7ba8c0@deltanedwukabv> References: <004701c469b3$39e41d50$bb7ba8c0@deltanedwukabv> Message-ID: <1089825437.4597.6.camel@berlin.east.gov> On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 10:59, Jaider Viola - Deltaned wrote: > I try to install on my fedora core 2 server a KISS firewall. > The firewall is installed without any problem but when I try to start the > kiss firewall I get the follow: Since the ip_tables, ipt_state, and/or > ipt_multiport modules do not exist, > KISS can not function. Firewall script aborted! > > I do: chkconfig --list | grep -E "iptables|ipchains" and get the follow > output: iptables 0:off 1:off 2:on 3:on 4:on 5:on > 6:off This is not the list for Fedora technical questions. The fedora-docs-list is for discussing Fedora documentation. Try joining fedora-list instead, and searching the archives before posting: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Nevertheless, here's a couple things to think about: Even if your chkconfig listing shows that iptables defaults to "on" for your runlevel, that does not mean it is on currently. If "lsmod" shows you that the iptables modules are not loaded, that could explain this message. If your defaults for iptables are set up so that your rulesets are all empty and defaulting to ACCEPT (for example, because you didn't install the firewall during installation, or because you used {redhat,system}-config-securitylevel to set the default state to "No firewall"), the iptables modules are probably not loaded automatically. Try either changing those settings or manually loading the iptables modules. Beyond that I am not that familiar with KISS, so hopefully you can find help through Google. Good luck and best wishes. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From rkrawczyk at gazeta.pl Thu Jul 22 08:23:37 2004 From: rkrawczyk at gazeta.pl (Robert Krawczyk) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:23:37 +0200 Subject: Callback and RAS Message-ID: <000e01c46fc5$3082dea0$29bea8c0@galluppolska.pl> Hi I have a WIN2K RAS Server at work with callback enabled. So when I make a connection to my work with my WinXP workstation, the RAS server recognises me and gives me an oppurtunity to be called back. And then the line is hung up and the RAS Server calls my workstation. But when i use PPP connection from my Fedora linux workstation connection is establish but without opportunity to be call back. What and how should i configure? any links, faq? Regards Robert From paul at frields.com Thu Jul 22 12:22:53 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:22:53 -0400 Subject: Callback and RAS In-Reply-To: <000e01c46fc5$3082dea0$29bea8c0@galluppolska.pl> References: <000e01c46fc5$3082dea0$29bea8c0@galluppolska.pl> Message-ID: <1090498972.2337.2.camel@berlin.east.gov> On Thu, 2004-07-22 at 04:23, Robert Krawczyk wrote: > I have a WIN2K RAS Server at work with callback enabled. So when I make a > connection to my work with my WinXP workstation, the RAS server recognises > me and gives me an oppurtunity to be called back. > And then the line is hung up and the RAS Server calls my workstation. But > when i use PPP connection from my Fedora linux workstation connection is > establish but without opportunity to be call back. > What and how should i configure? any links, faq? > Regards This list, fedora-docs-list, is for discussion of Fedora documentation. If you want help with a Fedora technical issue, you probably will want to join and post to the fedora-list. The following link will take you to the list's main administrative page: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list/ Good luck and best wishes. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From pablo at hard-line.com.ar Sun Jul 25 00:13:44 2004 From: pablo at hard-line.com.ar (Pablo) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:13:44 -0300 Subject: Problems with my Lucent winmodem under FC2 !!!! Message-ID: <000e01c471dc$40a05650$58ec44c8@servidor> Hello... I'm having troubles installing my lucent winmodem under Fedora Core 2. I downloadad the lasta driver available from www.linmodem.org, succesfully compiled (with no errors at all). The symlinks are correct and both modules are generated. The problem is that the system doesn?t recognize the modules' format. Even when I try to install them with insmod or load the modules with modprobe I get an error message: "Unrecognized module format". Of course, with KPPP I cannot dial. The message is that the modem is busy when I try to use the /dev/modem port. I tryed with two different chipsets models (both supported by the driver) in two different computers (one AMD Athlon 2600+ with 512Mb. RAM and another Athlon Thunderbird 900Mhz. with 128Mb. RAM). Can anybody help me with this? I can?t see where?s the problem. I tryed several times and the compilation process is always succesful but the problem is always the same. Thank U. From pablo at hard-line.com.ar Sun Jul 25 05:10:56 2004 From: pablo at hard-line.com.ar (pablo at hard-line.com.ar) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:10:56 -0700 Subject: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2 Message-ID: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> I?ve got a wireless USB keyboard + optical mouse in a machine running Fedora Core 2. Both devices are working perfectly. I can use the keyboard without any problem but I?m having a little trouble with the mouse. The pointer (cursor) moves perfectly -so the mouse is working- but I can?t click or use the wheel. I don?t really care about the wheel too much but no button is working. This doesn?t happen when I use a PS/2 optical mouse. And, finally, under Windowshit XP (in the same machine) it works perfectly... so, is nos the BIOS setting. And of course I played for a while with kudzu and system-config-mouse. What can I do? Is there a driver for that? Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From paul at frields.com Sun Jul 25 13:16:27 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:16:27 -0400 Subject: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2 In-Reply-To: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> Message-ID: <1090761387.28909.1.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> On Sun, 2004-07-25 at 01:10, pablo at hard-line.com.ar wrote: > I?ve got a wireless USB keyboard + optical mouse in a machine running Fedora > Core 2. Both devices are working perfectly. I can use the keyboard without > any problem but I?m having a little trouble with the mouse. The pointer > (cursor) moves perfectly -so the mouse is working- but I can?t click or use > the wheel. I don?t really care about the wheel too much but no button is > working. This doesn?t happen when I use a PS/2 optical mouse. And, finally, > under Windowshit XP (in the same machine) it works perfectly... so, is nos > the BIOS setting. > And of course I played for a while with kudzu and system-config-mouse. > What can I do? Is there a driver for that? > Thanks. This list, fedora-docs-list, is for discussing Fedora documentation, not for technical help with Fedora. If you need technical assistance, you want the fedora-list instead. Here's where you can find information on that list, and search the archives before posting: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list/ Good luck and best wishes. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From hoyt at cavtel.net Sun Jul 25 19:15:42 2004 From: hoyt at cavtel.net (Hoyt) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:15:42 -0400 Subject: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2 In-Reply-To: <1090761387.28909.1.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <1090761387.28909.1.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> On Sunday 25 July 2004 09:16 am, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > What can I do? Is there a driver for that? > > Thanks. > > This list, fedora-docs-list, is for discussing Fedora documentation, not > for technical help with Fedora. This issue arises frequently. Perhaps it's time to look at it as a documentation issue. What process did they arrive at in choosing this list? How can we use the answer to improve the system and get those who need help to the correct place on the first try? -- Hoyt Linux _is_ foolproof; just look at all the Windows users who won't use it. From paul at frields.com Mon Jul 26 14:07:02 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:07:02 -0400 Subject: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2 In-Reply-To: <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <1090761387.28909.1.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> Message-ID: <1090850822.2337.73.camel@berlin.east.gov> On Sun, 2004-07-25 at 15:15, Hoyt wrote: > > > What can I do? Is there a driver for that? > > > Thanks. > > > > This list, fedora-docs-list, is for discussing Fedora documentation, not > > for technical help with Fedora. > > This issue arises frequently. > > Perhaps it's time to look at it as a documentation issue. > > What process did they arrive at in choosing this list? > > How can we use the answer to improve the system and get those who need help to > the correct place on the first try? The snarky answer would be "improve literacy throughout the user community." But that's not really answering your question. ;-) I think a good start would be for Red Hat to include a notation in their listinfo pages for fedora-docs-list in a large, easy-to-read, highlighted box, reading in effect: "The fedora-docs-list is for discussion of Fedora documentation, *not* for technical assistance. If you are looking for help with a Fedora issue, such as how to accomplish a certain task, go to the **fedora-list** [link] pages instead. Thank you!" I think it's currently very easy for people to mistake one for the other, because they think, "Aha, 'docs' -- that must be where I can find HOWTOs and such." We need to learn that as the user community expands, so too does the tendency to "think like a geek" drop concomitantly. I don't think we'll ever arrive at a 100% success rate with getting the right people to a solution on the first try, although it's certainly a noble goal. But what we should *never* have is users flailing after the second try -- that number should be 100% almost without exception, if you get my meaning. Cheers! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From hobbit at aloss.ukuu.org.uk Tue Jul 27 07:42:52 2004 From: hobbit at aloss.ukuu.org.uk (Telsa Gwynne) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:42:52 +0100 Subject: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2 In-Reply-To: <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <1090761387.28909.1.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> Message-ID: <20040727074252.GB27681@www.pagan.org.uk> On Sun, Jul 25, 2004 at 03:15:42PM -0400 or thereabouts, Hoyt wrote: > On Sunday 25 July 2004 09:16 am, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > This list, fedora-docs-list, is for discussing Fedora documentation, not > > for technical help with Fedora. > > This issue arises frequently. > > Perhaps it's time to look at it as a documentation issue. > What process did they arrive at in choosing this list? "Ooh. Docs people will know the answer because they wrote a document about it. They will certainly know where the document is." We get this sort of thing on the Gnome docs list. But not nearly as often. I don't know why it happens so often here. Telsa From hoyt at cavtel.net Tue Jul 27 15:47:33 2004 From: hoyt at cavtel.net (Hoyt) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:47:33 -0400 Subject: People posting here by mistake (was:Re: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2) In-Reply-To: <20040727074252.GB27681@www.pagan.org.uk> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> <20040727074252.GB27681@www.pagan.org.uk> Message-ID: <200407271147.33395.hoyt@cavtel.net> On Tuesday 27 July 2004 03:42 am, Telsa Gwynne wrote: > We get this sort of thing on the Gnome docs list. But not nearly > as often. I don't know why it happens so often here. That's why I suggested asking the people how it was that they came to _this_ mail list. I had a similar problem at my business, receiving ever-increasing phone calls intended for a neighboring business with a similar name. At first, we just assumed that it was name confusion, but when I asked these people how they came upon my number, we were able to determine that an error in Verizon's listing for 411 calls listed my number under my neighbors name. Without asking, the problem would never have been solved. -- Hoyt A day without sunshine is a lot like night. From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Jul 27 17:39:17 2004 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:39:17 -0400 Subject: Fedora Project Mailing Lists reminder Message-ID: This is a reminder of the mailing lists for the Fedora Project, and the purpose of each list. You can view this information at http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/ When you're using these mailing lists, please take the time to choose the one that is most appropriate to your post. If you don't know the right mailing list to use for a question or discussion, please contact me. This will help you get the best possible answer for your question, and keep other list subscribers happy! Mailing Lists Mailing lists are email addresses which send email to all users subscribed to the mailing list. Sending an email to a mailing list reaches all users interested in discussing a specific topic and users available to help other users with the topic. The following mailing lists are available. To subscribe, send email to -request at redhat.com (replace with the desired mailing list name such as fedora-list) with the word subscribe in the subject. fedora-announce-list - Announcements of changes and events. To stay aware of news, subscribe to this list. fedora-list - For users of releases. If you want help with a problem installing or using , this is the list for you. fedora-test-list - For testers of test releases. If you would like to discuss experiences using TEST releases, this is the list for you. fedora-devel-list - For developers, developers, developers. If you are interested in helping create releases, this is the list for you. fedora-docs-list - For participants of the docs project fedora-desktop-list - For discussions about desktop issues such as user interfaces, artwork, and usability fedora-config-list - For discussions about the development of configuration tools fedora-legacy-announce - For announcements about the Fedora Legacy Project fedora-legacy-list - For discussions about the Fedora Legacy Project fedora-selinux-list - For discussions about the Fedora SELinux Project fedora-de-list - For discussions about Fedora in the German language fedora-es-list - For discussions about Fedora in the Spanish language fedora-ja-list - For discussions about Fedora in the Japanese language fedora-i18n-list - For discussions about the internationalization of Fedora Core fedora-trans-list - For discussions about translating the software and documentation associated with the Fedora Project German: fedora-trans-de French: fedora-trans-fr Spanish: fedora-trans-es Italian: fedora-trans-it Brazilian Portuguese: fedora-trans-pt_br Japanese: fedora-trans-ja Korean: fedora-trans-ko Simplified Chinese: fedora-trans-zh_cn Traditional Chinese: fedora-trans-zh_tw From davep at dpawson.co.uk Wed Jul 28 17:57:38 2004 From: davep at dpawson.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:57:38 +0100 Subject: Test message Message-ID: <1091037458.2022.23.camel@homer> -- Regards DaveP. XSLT&Docbook FAQ http://www.dpawson.co.uk/xsl From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jul 29 18:29:56 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:29:56 -0700 Subject: People posting here by mistake (was:Re: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2) In-Reply-To: <200407271147.33395.hoyt@cavtel.net> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> <20040727074252.GB27681@www.pagan.org.uk> <200407271147.33395.hoyt@cavtel.net> Message-ID: <1091125795.11946.9987.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2004-07-27 at 08:47, Hoyt wrote: > On Tuesday 27 July 2004 03:42 am, Telsa Gwynne wrote: > > We get this sort of thing on the Gnome docs list. But not nearly > > as often. I don't know why it happens so often here. > > That's why I suggested asking the people how it was that they came to _this_ > mail list. > > I had a similar problem at my business, receiving ever-increasing phone calls > intended for a neighboring business with a similar name. At first, we just > assumed that it was name confusion, but when I asked these people how they > came upon my number, we were able to determine that an error in Verizon's > listing for 411 calls listed my number under my neighbors name. Without > asking, the problem would never have been solved. Following up on this theory, I looked around for an obvious configuration or information bug at fedora.redhat.com and www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list, and nothing jumps out as a reason people would be lead to this list for generic questions. For example, I looked to see if there was anywhere that fedora-docs-list was described other than "participants of the Docs Project", and I didn't find anything. Next time we get such a question we'll have to ask how they found this list for their answer. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From paul at frields.com Thu Jul 29 19:46:55 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:46:55 -0400 Subject: People posting here by mistake (was:Re: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2) In-Reply-To: <1091125795.11946.9987.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> <20040727074252.GB27681@www.pagan.org.uk> <200407271147.33395.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091125795.11946.9987.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1091130415.2798.9.camel@berlin.east.gov> > Following up on this theory, I looked around for an obvious > configuration or information bug at fedora.redhat.com and > www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list, and nothing jumps out > as a reason people would be lead to this list for generic questions. > For example, I looked to see if there was anywhere that fedora-docs-list > was described other than "participants of the Docs Project", and I > didn't find anything. > > Next time we get such a question we'll have to ask how they found this > list for their answer. I would think we could take a couple proactive steps without adversely affecting anyone: 1. In Elliot Lee's monthly (or however regular) list of Red Hat/Fedora lists, the first listing appearing at the top, set off in some manner of highlight, should be fedora-list. That would emphasize the importance of that list for users, I think without disparaging any of the other lists. (I could also see including fedora-devel-list with fedora-list; that would probably be a judgment call for the Fedora leadership. I suspect fedora-list sees more traffic, and undoubtedly is where we are continually redirecting folks.) 2. The archive/info page for fedora-docs-list should include a highlighted area that lets people know how fedora-docs-list differs from fedora-list, and helpfully provides a link to fedora-list. I'm copying Elliot on this message in case he's interested in at least suggestion #1. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Fri Jul 30 00:18:34 2004 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:18:34 -0500 Subject: People posting here by mistake (was:Re: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2) In-Reply-To: <1091125795.11946.9987.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> <20040727074252.GB27681@www.pagan.org.uk> <200407271147.33395.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091125795.11946.9987.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20040729191834.21406f76.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > Following up on this theory, I looked around for an obvious > configuration or information bug at fedora.redhat.com and > www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list, and nothing jumps out > as a reason people would be lead to this list for generic questions. I started with the http://fedora.redhat.com link and made my way to http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ by clicking on the "Docs" button on the introductory page. Here the Documentation Project is mentioned twice, with two links. Unfortunately, there really no documentation available on this path, but following the link gets me to the "Docs Project" page. Still no user documentation, but nothing to indicate that real user-level documentation isn't just another click or two away. I suggest putting a notice on the "User Documentation" page there at http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ these are now the pages to _obtain_ on-line documentation but the place to _create_ it. Something along the lines of "no user serviceable parts inside" message. Maybe "Do you want to be an author? Join our mailing list!" would be sufficient. Cheers! From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 30 00:55:58 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:55:58 -0700 Subject: People posting here by mistake (was:Re: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2) In-Reply-To: <20040729191834.21406f76.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> <20040727074252.GB27681@www.pagan.org.uk> <200407271147.33395.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091125795.11946.9987.camel@erato.phig.org> <20040729191834.21406f76.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1091148957.11946.10788.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 17:18, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > > > Following up on this theory, I looked around for an obvious > > configuration or information bug at fedora.redhat.com and > > www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list, and nothing jumps out > > as a reason people would be lead to this list for generic questions. > > I started with the http://fedora.redhat.com link and made my way to > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > > by clicking on the "Docs" button on the introductory page. Here the > Documentation Project is mentioned twice, with two links. > Unfortunately, there really no documentation available on this path, > but following the link gets me to the "Docs Project" page. Still no > user documentation, but nothing to indicate that real user-level > documentation isn't just another click or two away. > > I suggest putting a notice on the "User Documentation" page there at > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > > these are now the pages to _obtain_ on-line documentation but the > place to _create_ it. Something along the lines of "no user > serviceable parts inside" message. Maybe "Do you want to be an > author? Join our mailing list!" would be sufficient. Good point, and exactly the type of concept disconnection we were looking for. Below I combined Tommy's and Paul's ideas, at least for the mailing list. I don't know off hand how one goes about changing content on fedora.redhat.com. This is cc:'d the list owner. Warren, can we make changes to the mailing list pages along these lines? Everyone, speak up to fix the language here, or don't and let Warren make the changes verbatim: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list Under "About fedora-docs-list": "The Fedora Docs Project is for writers and testers of documentation for Fedora Core. The fedora-docs-list is for writers to discuss documentation. For technical answers information, use fedora-list at redhat.com." I think the blurb on http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/, "For participants of the docs project," is probably good enough. If we really want to drive the point home, we can put this blurb in the "welcome to the mailing list" message emailed to new subscribers. This is a nice thing to do for people, letting them know right away what is on-topic: "Fedora-docs-list is for writers interested in creating and editing documentation for Fedora Core. This is not the place to obtain documentation or technical help, other than help using the Fedora Docs Project toolchain. If you need help using Fedora Core, use fedora-list; subscribe at http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list." ## 30 - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 30 00:58:06 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:58:06 -0700 Subject: People posting here by mistake (was:Re: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2) In-Reply-To: <1091130415.2798.9.camel@berlin.east.gov> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> <20040727074252.GB27681@www.pagan.org.uk> <200407271147.33395.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091125795.11946.9987.camel@erato.phig.org> <1091130415.2798.9.camel@berlin.east.gov> Message-ID: <1091149085.11946.10794.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 12:46, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Following up on this theory, I looked around for an obvious > > configuration or information bug at fedora.redhat.com and > > www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list, and nothing jumps out > > as a reason people would be lead to this list for generic questions. > > For example, I looked to see if there was anywhere that fedora-docs-list > > was described other than "participants of the Docs Project", and I > > didn't find anything. > > > > Next time we get such a question we'll have to ask how they found this > > list for their answer. > > I would think we could take a couple proactive steps without adversely > affecting anyone: > > 1. In Elliot Lee's monthly (or however regular) list of Red Hat/Fedora > lists, the first listing appearing at the top, set off in some manner of > highlight, should be fedora-list. That would emphasize the importance of > that list for users, I think without disparaging any of the other lists. > (I could also see including fedora-devel-list with fedora-list; that > would probably be a judgment call for the Fedora leadership. I suspect > fedora-list sees more traffic, and undoubtedly is where we are > continually redirecting folks.) > > 2. The archive/info page for fedora-docs-list should include a > highlighted area that lets people know how fedora-docs-list differs from > fedora-list, and helpfully provides a link to fedora-list. > > I'm copying Elliot on this message in case he's interested in at least > suggestion #1. Just FYI for Elliot, I requested the list owner to make changes as per #2, to the listinfo/ page and the welcome message. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 30 01:24:47 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:24:47 -0700 Subject: what is ready for fedora.redhat.com Message-ID: <1091150686.11946.10842.camel@erato.phig.org> Can we put together a list of what exactly is ready to post or change in either of the Docs pages at fedora.redhat.com? There are two categories: 1. Actual Documentation - http://fedora.redhat.com/docs These would be new documents or changes to existing documents. If you have specific bugzilla reports, post them. Perhaps bug reports, one for each document ready to post? I'll start the list: ## Documents Ready For Post and Maintenance Fedora Core 2 SELinux FAQ (in CVS) Fedora Core 3text1 SELinux FAQ (soon to be in CVS) 2. Docs Project - http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ Specific changes we should file as bugzilla reports, then report the bugzilla number back to this thread. If it's something for the FDP Documentation Guide, it needs a bugzilla number, and should be included in this category. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From linux at bytebot.net Fri Jul 30 05:38:20 2004 From: linux at bytebot.net (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:38:20 +1000 Subject: Using elvis? Message-ID: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> Hi, We've been talking about public CVS for far too long, and I think the longer we wait, the longer Fedora Docs becomes less & less relevant Keeping in mind that the barrier of entry is already relatively high (you need to know DocBook, you need to use Emacs, etc...), this makes folk move closer to creating docs on 3rd party sites Why can't we use elvis.redhat.com ? Anaconda, translations and so on happen at elvis, so why not fedora docs? This will mean external contributors *can* commit to cvs as well Kind regards -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 30 06:34:50 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:34:50 -0700 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> Message-ID: <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 22:38, Colin Charles wrote: > Hi, > > We've been talking about public CVS for far too long, and I think the > longer we wait, the longer Fedora Docs becomes less & less relevant Sorry if I'm being dense, but I don't understand how having public CVS resolves the problems of Fedora docs? I see a lack of content, some broken processes, and barriers to entry, but I don't see how public CVS resolves that. > Keeping in mind that the barrier of entry is already relatively high > (you need to know DocBook, you need to use Emacs, etc...), this makes > folk move closer to creating docs on 3rd party sites Agreed about the difficulties. To address this, Mark Johnson mentioned the idea of doing a Fedora Docs Quick Start Guide. He would make it a focused tutorial, using his psgmlx mode for Emacs, which gives a friendly and useful XML editing environment. Would that be helpful? Still, Emacs is not required, and there have been plenty of offers to convert and actual conversions from just about any source document into a Fedora doc. The contribution of content is what is lacking. Going back to the CVS, I don't see how giving write access to people who are having difficulties learning the tools is helpful? OTOH, giving write access to some of the people who a) know the tools, and b) have demonstrated their ability to submit good code, that would be a great thing. > Why can't we use elvis.redhat.com ? Anaconda, translations and so on > happen at elvis, so why not fedora docs? This will mean external > contributors *can* commit to cvs as well This is an interesting end-run idea. Speaking for myself, my inclination is not to create a parallel system to what is being worked on and waited for. My email about what content is actually ready for CVS and posting on fedora.redhat.com/docs is very relevant to your question. Once we know exactly what there is to post and put in CVS, then we have something to agitate about. Deliver the content, and we'll find a way to get it posted. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From paul at frields.com Fri Jul 30 11:53:40 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:53:40 -0400 Subject: People posting here by mistake (was:Re: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2) In-Reply-To: <1091148957.11946.10788.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> <20040727074252.GB27681@www.pagan.org.uk> <200407271147.33395.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091125795.11946.9987.camel@erato.phig.org> <20040729191834.21406f76.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1091148957.11946.10788.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1091188420.2338.6.camel@berlin.east.gov> On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 20:55, Karsten Wade wrote: [...snip...] > This is cc:'d the list owner. Warren, can we make changes to the > mailing list pages along these lines? Everyone, speak up to fix the > language here, or don't and let Warren make the changes verbatim: > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > Under "About fedora-docs-list": > > "The Fedora Docs Project is for writers and testers of documentation for > Fedora Core. The fedora-docs-list is for writers to discuss > documentation. For technical answers information, use href="http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list">fedora-list at redhat.com." > > I think the blurb on http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/, "For > participants of the docs project," is probably good enough. I can live with that; this is kind of an incremental process in any case, so there's no reason to go overboard on changing every reference to fedora-docs-list at once. If we're still getting a third of our threads devoted to out-of-band issues three or six months down the road we could make additional changes. > If we really want to drive the point home, we can put this blurb in the > "welcome to the mailing list" message emailed to new subscribers. This > is a nice thing to do for people, letting them know right away what is > on-topic: > > "Fedora-docs-list is for writers interested in creating and editing > documentation for Fedora Core. This is not the place to obtain > documentation or technical help, other than help using the Fedora Docs > Project toolchain. If you need help using Fedora Core, use fedora-list; > subscribe at http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list." I would surround "This is not the place..." with or just to make sure it's read. Looks good! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From paul at frields.com Fri Jul 30 14:18:18 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:18:18 -0400 Subject: what is ready for fedora.redhat.com In-Reply-To: <1091150686.11946.10842.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1091150686.11946.10842.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1091197097.2338.12.camel@berlin.east.gov> On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 21:24, Karsten Wade wrote: > Can we put together a list of what exactly is ready to post or change in > either of the Docs pages at fedora.redhat.com? > > There are two categories: > > 1. Actual Documentation - http://fedora.redhat.com/docs > > These would be new documents or changes to existing documents. If you > have specific bugzilla reports, post them. Perhaps bug reports, one for > each document ready to post? I'll start the list: [...snip...] I have a few documents available at http://docs.frields.org for download. I'll Bugzilla them today when I have a free moment. > 2. Docs Project - http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > > Specific changes we should file as bugzilla reports, then report the > bugzilla number back to this thread. If it's something for the FDP > Documentation Guide, it needs a bugzilla number, and should be included > in this category. I've got at least one of those in BZ already as well, cosmetics I believe. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From hoyt at cavtel.net Fri Jul 30 15:32:58 2004 From: hoyt at cavtel.net (Hoyt) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:32:58 -0400 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> On Friday 30 July 2004 02:34 am, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Why can't we use elvis.redhat.com ? Anaconda, translations and so on > > happen at elvis, so why not fedora docs? This will mean external > > contributors *can* commit to cvs as well > > This is an interesting end-run idea. ?Speaking for myself, my > inclination is not to create a parallel system to what is being worked > on and waited for. And it looks a little neglected as well, focusing as it does on RH8 documentation that is painfully incomplete. As a technical writer, I have always found the requirement to use complex formatting tools an onerous burden. Unless formatting is crucial to understanding the content, it is a task better left to an editor. While I certainly understand the need to use sophisticated formatting in this case The focus for the writer should be on what they do best: content. The important work of formatting (if not known by the writer, and there's no reason why they can't learn it if they wish) should be left to those who are experts there. That there are volunteers that offer to handle that is wonderful and a great example of cooperative work to acjhieve a goal. Is there a web page to recruit writing volunterrs? and provide them with enough information so that they may feel comfortable making a contribution? If not, I'd be glad to offer a draft of such a page. Hoyt From davep at dpawson.co.uk Fri Jul 30 16:12:47 2004 From: davep at dpawson.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:12:47 +0100 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1091203967.2020.20.camel@homer> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 07:34, Karsten Wade wrote: > Sorry if I'm being dense, but I don't understand how having public CVS > resolves the problems of Fedora docs? One problem I see it addressing. There is no (apparent) way to get documentation *to* Fedora without it? Even a statement, drop it into this repository and it will be reviewed in two weeks, would be a help. I.e. why should I write if there is no way to get stuff into Fedora? That's the issue being addressed... or more accurately, not being addressed, despite promises some time ago. -- Regards DaveP. XSLT&Docbook FAQ http://www.dpawson.co.uk/xsl From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 30 21:25:14 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:25:14 -0700 Subject: fedora-entities - a proposal in the flesh Message-ID: <1091222713.11946.13425.camel@erato.phig.org> This one has been on my to-do list for a while ... http://people.redhat.com/kwade/fedora-docs/common/fedora-entities-en.xml This works fine in my local tree, but since it includes entities required by the build scripts, it needs more QA. See below the Background section for implementation steps. # Background If you aren't familiar with the concept here, DocBook entities allow us to objectify common words and phrases that we want to use regularly, and be able to easily update from a single location. Entries look like this: In the XML it appears like this: The information in this FAQ is specific to &FC; &FCTESTVER;. If you are looking for the FAQ for &FC; &FCVER; ... Which DocBook converts into: The information in this FAQ is specific to Fedora Core 3test1. If you are looking for the FAQ for Fedora Core 2 ... # Implementing To take advantage of this common entities file, we need to do the following: 1. If the common entities file is ready for submission, get it into CVS in fedora-docs/common. I'll be responsible for making this happen, ye gods willing. 2. Update your XML to use the common file by first removing the local versions of similar entities (leave in your true local entities), and adding this line: %FEDORA-ENTITIES-EN; Note the relative path. Just like the build scripts, you are relying upon the various build directories in fedora-docs/ being in specific locations. The BOOKID entity is still set in each guide locally: I use a LOCALVER entity for the times when my guide is out of sync with the current FCVER or FCTESTVER in the common entities file. The LOCALVER would be used like this: The information in this FAQ is relevant to &FC; &LOCALVER; only and not to the current or test release. 3. File bugzilla tickets for all the other guides in CVS that need to be updated to use the new common entities file. ## 30 - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 30 21:37:43 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:37:43 -0700 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> Message-ID: <1091223463.11946.13452.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 08:32, Hoyt wrote: > On Friday 30 July 2004 02:34 am, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > Why can't we use elvis.redhat.com ? Anaconda, translations and so on > > > happen at elvis, so why not fedora docs? This will mean external > > > contributors *can* commit to cvs as well > > > > This is an interesting end-run idea. Speaking for myself, my > > inclination is not to create a parallel system to what is being worked > > on and waited for. > > And it looks a little neglected as well, focusing as it does on RH8 > documentation that is painfully incomplete. The reason, aiui, for using elvis is that it is already configured for internal-external collaboration for documentation, historically in terms of translation for Red Hat Linux. As such, using it would be an end-run around the Long Awaited Public CVS Access. > As a technical writer, I have always found the requirement to use complex > formatting tools an onerous burden. Unless formatting is crucial to > understanding the content, it is a task better left to an editor. While I > certainly understand the need to use sophisticated formatting in this case > > The focus for the writer should be on what they do best: content. The > important work of formatting (if not known by the writer, and there's no > reason why they can't learn it if they wish) should be left to those who are > experts there. That there are volunteers that offer to handle that is > wonderful and a great example of cooperative work to acjhieve a goal. The bummer is, DocBook is supposed to provide that, in an ideal sense. It is entirely focused on content, excluding style to the point that you go through painful contortions to make the text meaningful enough for style to be applied later. Moot point, anyway. We can take any structured text (just means nice paragraphs and headers set off on lines by themselves, with * bullet lists, etc.) and convert that to DocBook with minimal hassle. And we are certainly willing to do it to get content generated. There have been some reasonable conversions from Wiki done on this list, so a writer can work in a meaningful and structured way that allows us to convert fairly easily to vanilla DocBook. Once the content is converted to DocBook, I predict 50% of those who wrote plain vanilla for conversion will be able to easily maintain the document themselves in DocBook. > Is there a web page to recruit writing volunterrs? and provide them with > enough information so that they may feel comfortable making a contribution? > If not, I'd be glad to offer a draft of such a page. Hee hee, that's what http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs is supposed to do. How does this idea sound? Look through all of that, see what you would change to accomplish the goal of attracting writers of content, file a full bugzilla report with your proposed changes, and send us back a link to the report under the "what is ready for fedora.redhat.com" thread. We can put collaborative fixes back into the bug report. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 30 21:43:46 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:43:46 -0700 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091203967.2020.20.camel@homer> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <1091203967.2020.20.camel@homer> Message-ID: <1091223825.11946.13466.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 09:12, Dave Pawson wrote: > On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 07:34, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > Sorry if I'm being dense, but I don't understand how having public CVS > > resolves the problems of Fedora docs? > > > One problem I see it addressing. > There is no (apparent) way to get documentation *to* Fedora without it? > > Even a statement, drop it into this repository and it will be reviewed > in two weeks, would be a help. > > I.e. why should I write if there is no way to get stuff into Fedora? > That's the issue being addressed... or more accurately, not being > addressed, despite promises some time ago. You are, how do you say?, "spot on." Can't argue with the facts, although I'm trying to figure out how I, at least, can be a conduit to get documentation into Fedora. Still, that's not a scalable model, eh? ;-) My concern right now, though, is this: what if open CVS access were done tomorrow? How ready are we for it? 1. What is our process to decide who gets write access to fedora-docs? 2. What should be in there _right_now_ that is not? 3. What bugs are there to fix in the existing documentation, so contributors can start working on them? 4. What should be on the fedora.redhat.com/docs pages _right_now_? 4.1 How are we going to manage multiple documents across multiple versions? The left hand navigation bar is going to fill up pretty quickly at this rate. As for 1, I haven't the foggiest idea what Cristian's process is going to be. We should at least discuss it, though. The other items are something we can do something about. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 30 21:45:40 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:45:40 -0700 Subject: People posting here by mistake (was:Re: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2) In-Reply-To: <1091188420.2338.6.camel@berlin.east.gov> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> <20040727074252.GB27681@www.pagan.org.uk> <200407271147.33395.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091125795.11946.9987.camel@erato.phig.org> <20040729191834.21406f76.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1091148957.11946.10788.camel@erato.phig.org> <1091188420.2338.6.camel@berlin.east.gov> Message-ID: <1091223939.11946.13471.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 04:53, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 20:55, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > "Fedora-docs-list is for writers interested in creating and editing > > documentation for Fedora Core. This is not the place to obtain > > documentation or technical help, other than help using the Fedora Docs > > Project toolchain. If you need help using Fedora Core, use fedora-list; > > subscribe at http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list." > > I would surround "This is not the place..." with or just to > make sure it's read. Looks good! How about tags? :-D Un*fortunately, the welcome email is plain text, so we'll have to make sure the wording is emphasis enough. - Karsten * well, it's not really unfortunate. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From paul at frields.com Fri Jul 30 22:03:42 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:03:42 -0400 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> Message-ID: <1091225022.10960.19.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 11:32, Hoyt wrote: [...snip...] > As a technical writer, I have always found the requirement to use complex > formatting tools an onerous burden. Unless formatting is crucial to > understanding the content, it is a task better left to an editor. While I > certainly understand the need to use sophisticated formatting in this case > > The focus for the writer should be on what they do best: content. The > important work of formatting (if not known by the writer, and there's no > reason why they can't learn it if they wish) should be left to those who are > experts there. That there are volunteers that offer to handle that is > wonderful and a great example of cooperative work to acjhieve a goal. While I agree with the sentiment that formatting is best left to an editor, keep in mind that the Emacs/{psgml,nxml} route is really not hard to learn. I did it... and I was a vi guy (and barely that) who only learned enough so I could contribute. In fact, I'd like to spend more of my time writing docs, maybe trying to finally put together a real installation guide and administration guide, which seems to be something sorely lacking. But I volunteered as an editor, and am willing and able to do that if/when people submit material. Having said that, because the DocBook tools are so easy, it's *FAR* more efficient to use them while writing than for someone else to come in after the fact and do markup. It gets easier if another SGML (or even Wiki) is used, since some of the work can be automated. But because as a writer I know how my document should be organized, it's easier for me to provide the structure as I go. Minor markup certainly can be provided by an editor later, though. I don't think the toolset in FDP is much of a barrier to entry... if it was, believe me, with a full-time (mostly unrelated) job, a family, and a band, I wouldn't be hanging around here. :-) I'm not even a developer and probably not as good at integrating new app knowledge as a lot of Linux folks out there. But yet, even being a total nobody, I felt perfectly welcome jumping in. In fact, I'm doing a presentation shortly for a conference which I am going to turn into another FDP tutorial. Woo-hoo! I am personally in favor of a little less worry about "when is everyone else going to join in?" If we actually publish some useful documents, that is when people will see what it is we are about, and how some community members' accepted work looks. Then they can easily assess whether they can provide similar material, and jump in too. And yes, the LAPCVS(tm) would be great to have. I'm not waiting for that to do my writing, personally. Hope this didn't sound like anything other than the "rah-rah team" speak it was intended to be. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From paul at frields.com Fri Jul 30 22:26:17 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:26:17 -0400 Subject: People posting here by mistake (was:Re: Problems using a wireless mouse unfer FC2) In-Reply-To: <1091223939.11946.13471.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1090732256.410340e052673@www.hard-line.com.ar> <200407251515.43060.hoyt@cavtel.net> <20040727074252.GB27681@www.pagan.org.uk> <200407271147.33395.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091125795.11946.9987.camel@erato.phig.org> <20040729191834.21406f76.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1091148957.11946.10788.camel@erato.phig.org> <1091188420.2338.6.camel@berlin.east.gov> <1091223939.11946.13471.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1091226377.10960.44.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 17:45, Karsten Wade wrote: > > I would surround "This is not the place..." with or just to > > make sure it's read. Looks good! > > How about tags? :-D > > Un*fortunately, the welcome email is plain text, so we'll have to make > sure the wording is emphasis enough. Yeah, more blinking... and red, can we have red? Or cornflower blue? :-D In meager defense, I was only talking about on the Web page for fedora-docs-list. But to paraphrase earlier sentiments, you can lead a horse to water, etc.... -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From paul at frields.com Fri Jul 30 22:28:02 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:28:02 -0400 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091223825.11946.13466.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <1091203967.2020.20.camel@homer> <1091223825.11946.13466.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1091226482.10960.48.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Some musings follow... [...snip...] > 2. What should be in there _right_now_ that is not? An installation guide. A getting started guide. (Names generified from the Red Hat documentation. We want the same thing here, only FDL'd of course.) More TBA. > 3. What bugs are there to fix in the existing documentation, so > contributors can start working on them? I am seeing the existing documentation as consisting of: documentation-guide developer-guide example-tutorial The install-guide is basically only a placeholder now, with an outline for things to write. I used the existing documentation-guide to learn the tools, and can vouch that it and the example-tutorial are at least usable in their current state. The bug(s) I filed were mostly cosmetic and not showstoppers. The developer-guide has a bunch of FIXMEs inside, so may not be quite ready for prime time yet. > 4. What should be on the fedora.redhat.com/docs pages _right_now_? At least *ONE* substantial tutorial document that is both: (a) not of excessive length, and (b) marked up in an editorially-approved manner (q.v. below). > 4.1 How are we going to manage multiple documents across multiple > versions? The left hand navigation bar is going to fill up pretty > quickly at this rate. Ouch. I'll go out on the "ignorant limb" here since I am not a developer. I assume you're talking about dealing with install-guide-en-FC3, install-guide-en-FC4, foobar-tutorial-FC3, foobar-tutorial-FC4, etc.... Whatever we use, it should have a ready Web interface, easily organized, not impenetrable to a newbie, and hopefully leading to docs easily read online, in addition to being downloadable and locally-buildable. I've been playing with Subversion lately to tackle a project at work; I don't know if that's the kind of answer you were looking for. Subversion (hereinafter SVN) deals with trunk/tags/branches which makes handling of multiple releases (branches) and the main code (trunk) somewhat less unwieldy. We'd want to use more friendly names, of course, that make sense to a Fedora newbie browsing the docs, since SVN's "trunk" doesn't make much sense to people who aren't coders. I would think we could customize SVN (or use something else in front of it) to produce spiffier Web pages for mass navigation and consumption. One last related point: I'd like to suggest, as far as approval of documents goes, that at least two editors approve a document, with at least one of those editors coming from inside the Fedora Project (Red Hat?) "walls." I think that would give a consistent feel with the traditionally high quality of official Red Hat documentation. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE (hoping that RH doesn't revoke on grounds of "being an idiot") From redwire at therockmere.com Fri Jul 30 21:47:35 2004 From: redwire at therockmere.com (redwire at therockmere.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Doc List used as Help Desk Message-ID: <17875.151.201.224.27.1091224055.squirrel@TheRockmere.com> I agree that we need to clarify the actual usage of this mailing list. But, as was mentioned in one of the preceding posts: there aren't any Published DOCS for Fedora. And, we are the DOCS link mentioned on the Fedora Main Page. Maybe if we released some documentation for posting to the Fedora Website we could negate a number of these 'request for help' type postings. Just my opinion. Brad p.s. I've been locked out of the CVS to retreive the examples. Can someone repost the synatax for getting the docs from CVS. Also, if I wasn't just imagining that I could D'L from the CVS if you could confirm that I'd sleep better at night. I have a doc on YUM conversion from RH9 to FC 1 or 2, but I can't finish cleaning it up until I can check the examples. TIA...Brad From paul at frields.com Fri Jul 30 22:43:03 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:43:03 -0400 Subject: Fedora Doc List used as Help Desk In-Reply-To: <17875.151.201.224.27.1091224055.squirrel@TheRockmere.com> References: <17875.151.201.224.27.1091224055.squirrel@TheRockmere.com> Message-ID: <1091227383.10960.51.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 17:47, redwire at therockmere.com wrote: [...snip...] > p.s. I've been locked out of the CVS to retreive the examples. Can someone > repost the synatax for getting the docs from CVS. Also, if I wasn't just > imagining that I could D'L from the CVS if you could confirm that I'd > sleep better at night. [...snip...] The Documentation Project main page has the instructions for getting the docs: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Fri Jul 30 23:17:54 2004 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091223825.11946.13466.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20040730231754.12778.qmail@web8308.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > As for 1, I haven't the foggiest idea what > Cristian's process is going > to be. We should at least discuss it, though. The > other items are > something we can do something about. > > - Karsten Just curious. arent you guys in the same office? regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From paul at frields.com Sat Jul 31 02:45:03 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:45:03 -0400 Subject: fedora-entities - a proposal in the flesh In-Reply-To: <1091222713.11946.13425.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1091222713.11946.13425.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1091241903.12901.4.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Would it be OK to request a couple extra entities? http://fedora.redhat.com/"> http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/"> -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From davep at dpawson.co.uk Sat Jul 31 07:18:50 2004 From: davep at dpawson.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:18:50 +0100 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091223825.11946.13466.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <1091203967.2020.20.camel@homer> <1091223825.11946.13466.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1091258329.2049.33.camel@homer> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 22:43, Karsten Wade wrote: > > You are, how do you say?, "spot on." Can't argue with the facts, > although I'm trying to figure out how I, at least, can be a conduit to > get documentation into Fedora. Still, that's not a scalable model, eh? > ;-) > > My concern right now, though, is this: what if open CVS access were done > tomorrow? How ready are we for it? It would be one less hurdle. (And I agree that docbook processing is another one) > > 1. What is our process to decide who gets write access to fedora-docs? Whoever is in charge of this project. Simple decision by them. *but* we need a 'holding area', i.e. somewhere unauthorised writers can drop material off, in the hope that its not porn and will be accepted. The barrier needs to be there for quality, not for content. > > 2. What should be in there _right_now_ that is not? Pass. I must agree on the thread comments about the fedora-docs home page. E.g. Google has a hard time finding it. There is no link to actual 'this is what's been done so far' > > 3. What bugs are there to fix in the existing documentation, so > contributors can start working on them? http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ Not even linked from this page? Are there any requests out for document review? I can't recall any. Suggest add the project home page link as a footer to all these emails. (Helps with googling) > > 4. What should be on the fedora.redhat.com/docs pages _right_now_? http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/ Is that a documentation page for fedora? There's a link to rh9 doco. No document list... What is that page for please? > > 4.1 How are we going to manage multiple documents across multiple > versions? The left hand navigation bar is going to fill up pretty > quickly at this rate. Which nav bar? I'd not thought of xversion issues. How is it managed in 7,8 9 rh? Separate suites? Review then copy/amend over to the next rev? Makes the entity set quite important? regards DaveP -- Regards DaveP. XSLT&Docbook FAQ http://www.dpawson.co.uk/xsl From davep at dpawson.co.uk Sat Jul 31 07:22:56 2004 From: davep at dpawson.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:22:56 +0100 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091225022.10960.19.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091225022.10960.19.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1091258576.2049.38.camel@homer> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 23:03, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Having said that, because the DocBook tools are so easy, it's *FAR* more > efficient to use them while writing than for someone else to come in > after the fact and do markup. I found them quite daunting to get installed and set up. I don't think they are straightforward. Emacs has a huge learning curve. Emacs plus psgml another step. Add xml into that and I see why it stops some people. I agree with the rationale for using it though. > I am personally in favor of a little less worry about "when is everyone > else going to join in?" If we actually publish some useful documents, > that is when people will see what it is we are about, and how some > community members' accepted work looks. Then they can easily assess > whether they can provide similar material, and jump in too. +1 regards DaveP -- Regards DaveP. XSLT&Docbook FAQ http://www.dpawson.co.uk/xsl From davep at dpawson.co.uk Sat Jul 31 07:29:42 2004 From: davep at dpawson.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:29:42 +0100 Subject: Fedora Doc List used as Help Desk In-Reply-To: <17875.151.201.224.27.1091224055.squirrel@TheRockmere.com> References: <17875.151.201.224.27.1091224055.squirrel@TheRockmere.com> Message-ID: <1091258982.2049.43.camel@homer> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 22:47, redwire at therockmere.com wrote: > I agree that we need to clarify the actual usage of this mailing list. > But, as was mentioned in one of the preceding posts: there aren't any > Published DOCS for Fedora. http://fedora.redhat.com/ Look hard, right hand side, the jargon link? AFAIK that's the only documentation for fedora that I can find. As said earlier, it didn't make it into the docs page http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/ which is dormant-dead. I also gave Tammy another one which seems not to have made it 'live'. > p.s. I've been locked out of the CVS to retreive the examples. Can someone > repost the synatax for getting the docs from CVS. http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > Also, if I wasn't just > imagining that I could D'L from the CVS if you could confirm that I'd > sleep better at night. > I have a doc on YUM conversion from RH9 to FC 1 or 2, but I can't finish > cleaning it up until I can check the examples. I submitted a yum document to Tammy. Perhaps it died? I still have it if needed. -- Regards DaveP. XSLT&Docbook FAQ http://www.dpawson.co.uk/xsl From paul at frields.com Sat Jul 31 14:01:56 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:01:56 -0400 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091258576.2049.38.camel@homer> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091225022.10960.19.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <1091258576.2049.38.camel@homer> Message-ID: <1091282516.16376.21.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 03:22, Dave Pawson wrote: > > Having said that, because the DocBook tools are so easy, it's *FAR* more > > efficient to use them while writing than for someone else to come in > > after the fact and do markup. > > I found them quite daunting to get installed and set up. I don't think > they are straightforward. > Emacs has a huge learning curve. Emacs plus psgml another step. > Add xml into that and I see why it stops some people. > > I agree with the rationale for using it though. Dave, you've just hit on something important. If getting the toolset installed or configured is a barrier, that means our "Documentation Guide" isn't doing its job, and should have some parts rewritten to make it easier to get your tools set up. Which part exactly gave you trouble? Any time someone gets "stopped at the gate," so to speak, that's a warning sign that we're suffering from an unnecessary barrier to entry. Here's an example, not necessarily relevant to your particular problem(s): Suppose a would-be author didn't know, and couldn't figure out, that the "Authoring and Publishing" package group must be installed. That should either be in the Guide, or there should be a tool available for them to do some preliminary checking. Not that this is an earth-shattering breakthrough, but in the past, I've used tools in our office where people can do: wget -O - http://some/served/file | sh To accomplish certain "stock" configuration or recon tasks, simply as a job aid. When we have an office-wide change, I only have to change the file in one location. Just a thought.... In any case, maybe having a "Quick Start" that allows the impatient to automate the process would be helpful. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From davep at dpawson.co.uk Sat Jul 31 16:18:10 2004 From: davep at dpawson.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:18:10 +0100 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091282516.16376.21.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091225022.10960.19.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <1091258576.2049.38.camel@homer> <1091282516.16376.21.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1091290689.2091.28.camel@homer> On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 15:01, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > I found them quite daunting to get installed and set up. > > I agree with the rationale for using it though. > > Dave, you've just hit on something important. If getting the toolset > installed or configured is a barrier, that means our "Documentation > Guide" isn't doing its job, and should have some parts rewritten to make > it easier to get your tools set up. Which part exactly gave you trouble? My goal was dsssl for sgml to print (.doc rtf). 1. Learn Scheme 2. Learn SGML 3. Learn emacs (only free editor) Then I started to make progress... 4. Learn about catalogs. etc etc. Now I rarely switch a computer on without having emacs open! I'll find some more docbook setup docs. Trouble is, they teach you how to use docbook, not necessarily the setup on Fedora. > Any time someone gets "stopped at the gate," so to speak, that's a > warning sign that we're suffering from an unnecessary barrier to entry. > > Here's an example, not necessarily relevant to your particular > problem(s): Suppose a would-be author didn't know, and couldn't figure > out, that the "Authoring and Publishing" package group must be > installed Any reason they should? Its only when yum updates something called foobar that I get any inclination that I have an app called foobar on my machine. Where am I supposed to pluck 'authoring and publishing' from? Thin air? Its a bit catch 22. If you know what you want, its easy enough to find. No idea just how to start with such a solution. -- Regards DaveP. XSLT&Docbook FAQ http://www.dpawson.co.uk/xsl From davep at dpawson.co.uk Sat Jul 31 16:30:47 2004 From: davep at dpawson.co.uk (Dave Pawson) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:30:47 +0100 Subject: Docbook setup In-Reply-To: <1091282516.16376.21.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091225022.10960.19.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <1091258576.2049.38.camel@homer> <1091282516.16376.21.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1091291447.2293.9.camel@homer> Some links that help on using docbook. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hoenicka_markus/ntsgml.html Great for psgml on Windows. http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ToolsSetup.html More than enough for most. Others: Using docbook etc. http://nis-www.lanl.gov/~rosalia/mydocs/docbook-intro/docbook-intro.html Incomplete, very useful. For markup; my reference is still; http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html HTH DaveP From mjohnson at redhat.com Sat Jul 31 16:40:25 2004 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:40:25 -0400 Subject: Docbook setup In-Reply-To: <1091291447.2293.9.camel@homer> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091225022.10960.19.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <1091258576.2049.38.camel@homer> <1091282516.16376.21.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <1091291447.2293.9.camel@homer> Message-ID: <410BCB79.6090900@redhat.com> Hi All, I also maintain a page of DocBook newbie links: http://dulug.duke.edu/~mark/docbookmarks/ To take the pain out of setting up emacs/psgml for editing XML, emacs newbies might want to try my psgmlx package: http://dulug.duke.edu/~mark/psgmlx/ It was put together specifically to make emacs more user-friendly. Be sure to run the 'test' script when you untar it:-) It provides special color-themes for editing XML, psgml, as well as a number of other related packages that provide modes for editing DTDs, XSL stylsheets, CSS stylsheets, and a few others. The full list is here: http://dulug.duke.edu/~mark/psgmlx/doc/packages.html Next week Karsten & I are going to start a psgmlx project at savannah (the GNU version of sourceforge), to help maintain and further develop it. Cheers, Mark Dave Pawson wrote: > Some links that help on using docbook. > > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hoenicka_markus/ntsgml.html Great for psgml on Windows. > > http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ToolsSetup.html > More than enough for most. > > > > Others: Using docbook etc. > > http://nis-www.lanl.gov/~rosalia/mydocs/docbook-intro/docbook-intro.html Incomplete, very useful. > For markup; my reference is still; > http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html > > HTH DaveP > > -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson Red Hat Documentation Group Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From mjohnson at redhat.com Sat Jul 31 17:06:55 2004 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:06:55 -0400 Subject: Docbook setup: psgml links In-Reply-To: <410BCB79.6090900@redhat.com> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091225022.10960.19.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <1091258576.2049.38.camel@homer> <1091282516.16376.21.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <1091291447.2293.9.camel@homer> <410BCB79.6090900@redhat.com> Message-ID: <410BD1AF.8080000@redhat.com> Also, someone ought to post a link on to Bob DuCharme's very useful pages on emacs/psgml & DocBook on the Fedora Docs Project page[1]. The PSGML Quick reference is more appropriate for an emacs/psgml newbie: http://www.snee.com/bob/sgmlfree/psgmqref.html The PSGML Tricks page has material that's abit more advanced & is more suitable to emacs/psgml users with some experience. It even has a special section on DocBook (with docbook-specific macros, etc.) http://www.snee.com/bob/sgmlfree/emcspsgm.html HTH, Mark [1] http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson Red Hat Documentation Group Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From paul at frields.com Sat Jul 31 17:54:32 2004 From: paul at frields.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:54:32 -0400 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091290689.2091.28.camel@homer> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091225022.10960.19.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <1091258576.2049.38.camel@homer> <1091282516.16376.21.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <1091290689.2091.28.camel@homer> Message-ID: <1091296472.17509.2.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 12:18, Dave Pawson wrote: > > Here's an example, not necessarily relevant to your particular > > problem(s): Suppose a would-be author didn't know, and couldn't figure > > out, that the "Authoring and Publishing" package group must be > > installed > > Any reason they should? > Its only when yum updates something called foobar that I get any > inclination that I have an app called foobar on my machine. > Where am I supposed to pluck 'authoring and publishing' from? > Thin air? > Its a bit catch 22. If you know what you want, its easy enough > to find. > No idea just how to start with such a solution. You can use the System Settings -> Add/Remove Applications, which is where you would add this package group. Or, in the Docs Guide, there's a page of the three actual packages that are absolutely required, which you could use to do "up2date -i pkg1 pkg2 pkg3" (sorry, don't recall off the top of my head). Anyway, perhaps this information I'm spouting here needs to be in the Docs Guide. I'm off to a gig but if I get a chance I'll BZ this over the weekend, at least as an RFE. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From kwade at redhat.com Sat Jul 31 18:05:11 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:05:11 -0700 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <20040730231754.12778.qmail@web8308.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20040730231754.12778.qmail@web8308.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1091297111.11946.14731.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 16:17, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > As for 1, I haven't the foggiest idea what > > Cristian's process is going > > to be. We should at least discuss it, though. The > > other items are > > something we can do something about. > > > > - Karsten > > > Just curious. arent you guys in the same office? Nope. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From kwade at redhat.com Sat Jul 31 18:26:59 2004 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:26:59 -0700 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091258329.2049.33.camel@homer> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <1091203967.2020.20.camel@homer> <1091223825.11946.13466.camel@erato.phig.org> <1091258329.2049.33.camel@homer> Message-ID: <1091298418.11946.14777.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 00:18, Dave Pawson wrote: > On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 22:43, Karsten Wade wrote: > > My concern right now, though, is this: what if open CVS access were done > > tomorrow? How ready are we for it? > It would be one less hurdle. > (And I agree that docbook processing is another one) I mean something a little more than that. If we had CVS access immediately, we would have one new document to post and zero changes to make to the website. We have a very few bugs files against just the Documentation Guide. We, meaning all of us contributing to the docs project, are not in control of CVS access. We are in control of the rest of this. We can write patches to the Doc Guide and pass them around the (archived) mailing list. We can file bugs with the patches attached, file bugs against the website with specific changes as suggested on all these threads, and file bugs/requests for enhancement reports with tarballs of documents ready for initial CVS. These are actions we can take while we wait: * If you have a suggestion for something to fix on any of the fedora.redhat.com/docs or /projects/docs pages, file a bug, and please reply back to us here with the details and the bugzilla number. * If you have a fix, change, or even a patch to one of the existing documents, file a bug, and please report back here with details and bz number. * If you have a completed or mostly completed guide that should be in CVS and part of the docs offering for Fedora, file a bug, and report the details back here. When CVS opens for us, we will have a lot of work to do, but it will be good work, instead of starting from scratch. > > 4. What should be on the fedora.redhat.com/docs pages _right_now_? > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/ > Is that a documentation page for fedora? > There's a link to rh9 doco. > No document list... > What is that page for please? As I understand it, this should be a list all of the documentation that this project produces. It is up to this project and to decide what should be on that page, which is directly related to all these questions I'm asking. ;-P > > 4.1 How are we going to manage multiple documents across multiple > > versions? The left hand navigation bar is going to fill up pretty > > quickly at this rate. > Which nav bar? Nav bar = anywhere on fedora.redhat.com, the left side of the window has a blue stack of links to pages, that open up to reveal somewhat of a tree. If you click on Docs (as I think many visitors might do), it expands to show two documents, the Release Notes and the Jargon Buster, the only successful scratch-to-webpage document from the Fedora docs project. That nav bar needs to have more documents, or feeds into versions or areas of documents. We should recommend how that information flows, and of course we need to be filling in the blanks with content. :) > I'd not thought of xversion issues. How is it managed in 7,8 9 rh? > Separate suites? Review then copy/amend over to the next rev? > Makes the entity set quite important? Yeah, this is a whole discussion of it's own we need to have. On redhat.com, you first pick a product category, e.g. Red Hat Linux, then you get a long page with all of the guides by version. http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/ That page goes to 7.1, then has a link at the bottom for archived manuals that go all the way back to the start of time as we know it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Tech Writer this .signature subject to random changes http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From byte at aeon.com.my Sat Jul 31 18:07:13 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 04:07:13 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: USB Key and Fedora Core 2/Gnome2.6 How-To] Message-ID: <1091297233.24634.27.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> Don't know if we can make this of use in the Docs Project, but it might be handy The author, and Tim has been CC'ed as well This adds to Tim Waugh's guide http://cyberelk.net/tim/usb-storage.html, and I think will make a good HOWTO/Guide for the docs project For FC3, we might want to touch on gamin as well -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: M3 Freak Subject: USB Key and Fedora Core 2/Gnome2.6 How-To Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:47:01 -0400 Size: 4281 URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Sat Jul 31 19:02:32 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 05:02:32 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Creating a Fedora instllation boot floppy] Message-ID: <1091300551.24634.42.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> David, Consider dropping this to the fedora-docs-list at redhat.com as this is possibly a guide Regards -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: David Nedrow Subject: Creating a Fedora instllation boot floppy Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:51:52 -0400 Size: 26373 URL: From hobbit at aloss.ukuu.org.uk Sat Jul 31 22:51:51 2004 From: hobbit at aloss.ukuu.org.uk (Telsa Gwynne) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:51:51 +0100 Subject: Using elvis? In-Reply-To: <1091282516.16376.21.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> References: <1091155694.18914.26.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> <1091169289.11946.11661.camel@erato.phig.org> <200407301132.58369.hoyt@cavtel.net> <1091225022.10960.19.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <1091258576.2049.38.camel@homer> <1091282516.16376.21.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <20040731225151.GA20834@www.pagan.org.uk> I am really going to regret saying this. But... On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 10:01:56AM -0400 or thereabouts, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 03:22, Dave Pawson wrote: > > > Having said that, because the DocBook tools are so easy, it's *FAR* more > > > > I found them quite daunting to get installed and set up. I don't think > > they are straightforward. > > > > I agree with the rationale for using it though. > > Dave, you've just hit on something important. If getting the toolset > installed or configured is a barrier, that means our "Documentation > Guide" isn't doing its job, and should have some parts rewritten to make > it easier to get your tools set up. Which part exactly gave you trouble? My Docbook learning experience is a little while ago now, and I expect a new one shortly. But the "which part" is easy: Emacs. I realise this is a holy war, and I understand that, once mastered, it is a splendid tool. But I was used to the 'joe' editor, which uses ^K to introduce a great many extended commands. (It is like Wordstar, I gather.) Every time I stopped thinking and just typed, I would fall back into joe habits, I would hit ^K, and bad things (from my point of view) would happen. I still have no idea what those things were, but they were bad. And other joe commands all involve the control key. More bad things happened when I forgot what editor I was in, or extrapolated from one to the other. Eventually I just learned to write DocBook in joe. No tab completion or anything, but so much easier on my brain and my nerves. I had to abandon joe because I needed the ability to edit UTF-8 characters. With much pain, I switched to vim. There are still things I can't do with it, but I love it now. It was sufficiently different from Emacs that I was able to learn it without accidentally typing things before thinking. When I got involved in this, DocBook was SGML with DSSSL and you used jade to build the HTML and jadetex to build a horrible mess. Now it's XML with XSL/XSLT and I have more to learn, and I fear the new learning curve. But I really don't fear it as much as learning a new editor. I am sorry. I do not think this is the answer you wanted to hear! But for me, the problem was an editor that didn't seem to fit me, for which every manual was written. As for installing, I am the wrong person to comment, because from my point of view it has become a lot easier. (But it was hell before.) I just ensure that DocBook and stylesheets are selected in the install. And hope that they'll pull the rest in. Hoorah for dependencies. Telsa