From gustavo.seabra at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 00:34:05 2005 From: gustavo.seabra at gmail.com (Gustavo Seabra) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:34:05 -0600 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: <1112302844.6790.4.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1112300128.9412.303.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112302844.6790.4.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:00:44 +0200, Duncan Lithgow wrote: > Hi Gustavo, I see we've both ended up on this list after working on that > guide. :-) > > One immediate option that might make sense is to use the Wiki at > > fedoraproject.org. This works if the document is still in flux > > somewhat. Then it has an official-looking URL, and the others can > > mirror that. > > > However, if it's solid and not likely to get as many edits, then it > > seems to me like a perfect document for fedora.redhat.com/docs. > > How about we do both? Make a permanant link for this version and stop > calling it a draft - call it version 1. And another wiki version > ready for any later changes? This seems a good idea. Although the document is mature enough, it would keep an open door for improvement. > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ > > > > We can get a writer to help with the conversion to DocBook and to get > > the author/maintainer started. Of course, the list is here to help with > > ongoing learning of DocBook, writing, etc. > I would love to put it into DocBook, I've used XMLmind for DcoBook > before and would love to start using am Opensource app. I'll read the > quick-start guide over the weekend. Great. I'll take a look at the Wiki think. And I don't mind the responsability to mantain it after it's ready. It is not likely to be a very demanding job anyway. I just cannot compromise for learning the DocBook stuff /now/: I'm already running late with my thesis and cannot spare much time for anything else for a couple of weeks at least... Cheers, -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University Registered Linux user number 381680 ------------------------------------------------------------------ If at first you don't succeed... ...skydiving is not for you. From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Apr 1 02:21:57 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:21:57 +1000 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112322118.8582.398.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 12:26 -0600, Gustavo Seabra wrote: > At the 'fedora-list' there has been a recent community effort to > formulate a document with the "guidelines" for posting to that list. > After a number of drafts and discussions, this document has reached a > more mature form, and has been put in the form of a web page: > > Original: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~seabra/linux/FedoraRules.html > Mirror: http://www.cwelug.org/fedora/FedoraRules.html Wow, as list admin even I didn't know of that ;-) Anyways, whatever is decided here, please cc us (warren/me), or just write to fedora-list-owner at redhat.com so that we can make the appropriate changes and point people to guidelines and what not And the best way to ge tit all in, is to make it nice and easy for us. Can someone maybe get it imported into the wiki? Give me the appropriate text, tell me what you want and I think its a great idea -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From tuxxer at cox.net Fri Apr 1 02:46:38 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:46:38 -0800 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112323598.5284.31.camel@bach> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 22:17 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > > > > The preview site has been updated. You can check it > > out at > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-intro.html#intro-audience > > " Most of the threats on the Internet typically target > Microsoft Windows systems. As more and more users > start trying and using linux, it will become more and > more important for the common user to know how to > harden his or her system against these threats. " > > this suggests that Linux has no security threats at > present which is not true. I would prefer a guide on > hardening Linux talk about Linux rather than start by > a comparison with Windows Fair enough. > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter1.html > > The parts about using gpg or md5 requires more > explanation. If you are explaning it in a later part > refer to that > A detailed discussion of these utilities doesn't fall within the scope of this document. However, a glossing of how to create a gpg keypair, and how to check files with both gpg and md5sum will be added shortly. > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/sysid-and-role.html > > If you are including abbrevations such as NAT it would > be better to provide the expansion, explanation or a > side note OK. Done. > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/gui-update.html > > afaik I know yum is the recommended command line > program to use instead of up2date in fedora. if you > have sections on both yum and up2date you probably > need to explain the differences too which I would > consider out of scope for this article The only difference I need to really point out, for the scope of this document, is the fact that one is a GUI tool, and the other is a command line tool. This was mentioned on list (thanks Paul), and I would be more than happy to put in a link to the update-tutorial mentioned there. > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/services-gui.html > > > " The services that you can *safely* disable will > depend upon the role of your system." > > if you need to emphasise on safely use italics or what > the style guide recommends. > > " > yum - Enable daily run of yum, a program updater. > (This will depend on your environment.)" > > since every service is pretty much dependant on the > role of the system special emphasis for the yum deamon > is unnecessary True. However, I specifically said this for yum because I can think of environments in which the user would NOT want updates to be run every night automatically. Perhaps I can make a comment here that would be a little more clear to that end. > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/userconfig-cli.html > > " Below is a list of user accounts that most Fedora > Core users will want to disable." > > The above wording suggests that most users of Fedora > do not run the services that follows it. It would be > better to say something like this > > "The following are some of the services that you might > want to disable in the system depending on the your > requirements" > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter2.html > > Since this is out of scope for your document by your > own admission it would be better to just drop this. > Kernel recompilation or additional hardening is > unnecessary for the large majority of users and worse > gives the idea that the kernel requires active manual > intervention to make it secure. > Fair enough. This can wait until there is a kernel doc. Then I can provide a link. > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter3.html > > I am not sure what the policy is for linking to > external documents but permissions are much better > explained here > > http://www.tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/ > > Either link to this document or copy and paste with > attribution (The license is compatible) > Linked. > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/fssummary.html > > you can mention that these program exist in fedora > extras. fc4 will have extras repo enabled by default. > previous versions will require more explanation or how > to add the repo (steps are different between fc2 and > fc3 fyi) > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/limit-root.html > > a related sshd configuration change is disable ssh1 > protocol which is prone to man-in-the-middle attack > Done. > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter4.html > > this section seems to be redundant How so? tcp_wrappers could block a connection to a service that is open in the firewall. The default firewall utility doesn't provide the granularity to configure iptables to allow/deny a connection based on host or network. This is a measure that provides defense in depth based on Fedora's default functionality. > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/shells.html > > this can probably be clubbed together with the section > on users Makes sense. > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/passwd-sec-pam-config.html > > this section requires more information. if you are > going to just point to external links convert this > section into a note I meant to be more detailed here. I got lazy, then distracted. I'll re-address this section. > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/iptables-fw-config.html > > it is possible to provide a port range here. More > information is available in the redhat docs. > redhat.com/docs. you cannot copy and paste (license > restrictions) but you very well gather the information > from there > I'll have to look into that. > I would prefer a link to the SELinux faq and guide and > provide references and a bibliography. > > thanks > > > > Regards > Rahul Sundaram > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gustavo.seabra at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 04:27:45 2005 From: gustavo.seabra at gmail.com (Gustavo Seabra) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:27:45 -0600 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: <1112302844.6790.4.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1112300128.9412.303.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112302844.6790.4.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2005 3:00 PM, Duncan Lithgow wrote: > Hi Gustavo, I see we've both ended up on this list after working on that > guide. :-) > > One immediate option that might make sense is to use the Wiki at > > fedoraproject.org. This works if the document is still in flux > > somewhat. Then it has an official-looking URL, and the others can > > mirror that. > > > However, if it's solid and not likely to get as many edits, then it > > seems to me like a perfect document for fedora.redhat.com/docs. > > How about we do both? Make a permanant link for this version and stop > calling it a draft - call it version 1. And another wiki version > ready for any later changes? > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ > > > > We can get a writer to help with the conversion to DocBook and to get > > the author/maintainer started. Of course, the list is here to help with > > ongoing learning of DocBook, writing, etc. > I would love to put it into DocBook, I've used XMLmind for DcoBook > before and would love to start using am Opensource app. I'll read the > quick-start guide over the weekend. > > Duncan > On second thougth... I was wondering. The suggestions we've made, like having a link on the sig, welcoming e-mail, etc. all imply the existence of *one* permanent link, and that is unique and stable. So, I believe that there should be only one version of it. The question now comes to which form to adopt: DocBook or Wiki? Based on maturity, since this document has gone through 4 draft versions, all discussed openly in the list, I believe it is mature enough to get the DocBook format. It would also give it a more "official" look. However, it seems to me, the DocBook is a more closed format, with more restrict access. On the other hand, being a community born document, maybe the Wiki is more appropriate, by giving it a more open character. On the weak side, the Wiki would have less of an "official" impact. I think both formats have their pros and cons. What's your opinion about it? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University Registered Linux user number 381680 ------------------------------------------------------------------ If at first you don't succeed... ...skydiving is not for you. From gustavo.seabra at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 04:39:41 2005 From: gustavo.seabra at gmail.com (Gustavo Seabra) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:39:41 -0600 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: <1112322118.8582.398.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1112322118.8582.398.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2005 8:21 PM, Colin Charles wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 12:26 -0600, Gustavo Seabra wrote: > > At the 'fedora-list' there has been a recent community effort to > > formulate a document with the "guidelines" for posting to that list. > > After a number of drafts and discussions, this document has reached a > > more mature form, and has been put in the form of a web page: > > > > Original: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~seabra/linux/FedoraRules.html > > Mirror: http://www.cwelug.org/fedora/FedoraRules.html > > Wow, as list admin even I didn't know of that ;-) Wow again! I'm sorry to hear that. The point has been discussed a lot in the fedora-list. If you want to see what has been discussed, take a look at: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fedora-list&w=2&r=1&s=draft&q=b > > Anyways, whatever is decided here, please cc us (warren/me), or just > write to fedora-list-owner at redhat.com so that we can make the > appropriate changes and point people to guidelines and what not > > And the best way to ge tit all in, is to make it nice and easy for us. > Can someone maybe get it imported into the wiki? > > Give me the appropriate text, tell me what you want and I think its a > great idea Thank you very much for your support. We will contact you directly as soon as we reach the final decision. Thanks again. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University Registered Linux user number 381680 ------------------------------------------------------------------ If at first you don't succeed... ...skydiving is not for you. From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Fri Apr 1 04:53:03 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:53:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <1112323598.5284.31.camel@bach> Message-ID: <20050401045303.18094.qmail@web8510.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > True. However, I specifically said this for yum > because I can think of > environments in which the user would NOT want > updates to be run every > night automatically. Perhaps I can make a comment > here that would be a > little more clear to that end. if you are only addressing audiencing similar to the roles you are using you need to change the section on audience to reflect that. I would prefer you give a better explanation of the *availability* of this deamon and let the users decide whats appropriate for them. Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates. http://personals.yahoo.com From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Fri Apr 1 04:53:54 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:53:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050401045354.99445.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Colin Charles wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 12:26 -0600, Gustavo Seabra > wrote: > > At the 'fedora-list' there has been a recent > community effort to > > formulate a document with the "guidelines" for > posting to that list. > > After a number of drafts and discussions, this > document has reached a > > more mature form, and has been put in the form of > a web page: > > > > Original: > http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~seabra/linux/FedoraRules.html > > Mirror: > http://www.cwelug.org/fedora/FedoraRules.html > > Wow, as list admin even I didn't know of that ;-) it has been rehashed again and again and again. I am glad that someone finally managed to move it here Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From gustavo.seabra at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 05:02:39 2005 From: gustavo.seabra at gmail.com (Gustavo Seabra) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:02:39 -0600 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: <20050401045354.99445.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050401045354.99445.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2005 10:53 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > Wow, as list admin even I didn't know of that ;-) > > it has been rehashed again and again and again. I am > glad that someone finally managed to move it here > > Regards > Rahul Sundaram Yep, we finally gave in to your repeated suggestion... :-) Thanks! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University Registered Linux user number 381680 ------------------------------------------------------------------ If at first you don't succeed... ...skydiving is not for you. From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Fri Apr 1 05:08:33 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:08:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: how to recruit writers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050401050833.28528.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- samuel desseaux wrote: > > I 've read this interessant message and would be > happy to get involved > in the docs project. > I'm French,29,Linux user (and addict) since a long > time. In my free > time, i like to contribute to free softwares > projects (as developer or > translator,writer). > I am a Fedora user since last year and it's very > wonderful (with my 64 > bits,that's amazing ).That's for why i want to > contribute to Fedora as > writer (and developer if i have enough time).It > would be for me a very > good and learnful experience. > So,tell me what i can (or could) do. > Best regards > sam > welcome Sam. You can hangout in this list and grab whatever oppurtunity comes up. Fedora documentation project is in need of anyone and everyone interested in this effort and that includes writers, editors, translators and what not. so jump in Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates. http://personals.yahoo.com From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Fri Apr 1 05:02:15 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:02:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: how to recruit writers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050401050215.66237.qmail@web8508.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- BEN CASEY wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > Regarding this thread... I signed up for the mailing > list right when my job was > terminated and I was laid off from SGI. sorry to hear that. Hopefully you will get a great job and land here back soon. Good luck Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 1 08:17:41 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 00:17:41 -0800 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: References: <1112300128.9412.303.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112302844.6790.4.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <1112343461.9412.355.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 22:27 -0600, Gustavo Seabra wrote: > I believe that there should > be only one version of it. I agree. You only want to maintain one source and derive all others from that. > The question now comes to which form to adopt: DocBook or Wiki? > > Based on maturity, since this document has gone through 4 draft > versions, all discussed openly in the list, I believe it is mature > enough to get the DocBook format. It would also give it a more > "official" look. However, it seems to me, the DocBook is a more closed > format, with more restrict access. What I understand you to mean is, it is harder to learn how to use and manipulate DocBook than a Wiki. That is true. Otherwise, DocBook is the de facto standard open format for writing technical documentation. > On the other hand, being a community born document, maybe the Wiki is > more appropriate, by giving it a more open character. On the weak > side, the Wiki would have less of an "official" impact. My guess is that this document will not need that many revisions. It is based on solid principles and tailored to a particular audience. A Wiki is a great collaborative tool and gives you quick and easy ways to post information. But DocBook is on a different level. For example: * DocBook is a single source that gives you multiple output formats -- HTML, PDF, RTF, TXT, etc. * You can translate the strings in DocBook (the content between the tags) without having to touch the formatting. Fedora translators are used to working with DocBook. * XML and XSL allow us to add stylesheets for other accessibility needs, such as producing a high-contrast, large-font output for visually impaired, or output for text-to-speech programs to use. My thinking is that if a document is out of draft/beta stage and doesn't need more collaboration, we should put it into DocBook. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Fri Apr 1 08:20:09 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:20:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050401082009.45892.qmail@web8508.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > On the other hand, being a community born > document, maybe the Wiki is > > more appropriate, by giving it a more open > character. On the weak > > side, the Wiki would have less of an "official" > impact. > is there any methods to convert wiki content into docbook or would it have to be done manually. That would affect the release notes too. Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 1 08:35:48 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 00:35:48 -0800 Subject: how to recruit writers In-Reply-To: <1112287889.5919.14.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1112214410.9412.201.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112287889.5919.14.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <1112344549.9412.374.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 18:51 +0200, Duncan Lithgow wrote: > Hi, this sounds like something for me to pipe up on. I've recently > joined this list because I'm very keen to see improvements in docs for > linux generally. Here are some of my thoughts. > > - it's wrong to think that newbies can't write docs, they can best write > docs for other newbies about things they've just come to grips with. > this means that docs need to be (at least) as easy to edit as wikipedia. > Another good example that springs to mind is the php manual. > http://www.php.net/manual/en/configuration.php Yes, definitely the newbie factor was an oversight in my original post. There was a follow-up a few hours later in support of what you are saying. > - the absence of docs written for non-nerd windows users on how to get > started in linux is horrendous. All the things I've seen either > oversimplify or are written for command line types. I agree that Fedora docs needs to stretch from the newest to the oldest user. > - the fact that so many distros have their own completely seperate docs > for the *very same programs* is absurd. ubuntu springs to mind - great > project, but a lot of reinventing the wheel as far as much of their docs > go. This is not likely to go away. Go to a bookstore and into the computer book section, you won't find one book for each topic. Go to your favorite distro and see how many mail clients there are. Still, there is value in adopting upstream documentation. We could consider that for some areas such as GNOME. I want to review it on a case-by-case basis. > In the course of writing this it strikes me that there are three main > levels of doc-writers. It *must not* be a locked and/or techhead > oriented issue. > > * Top level: Full editorial power - responsible for maintaining a > logical structure for the docs. > * Middle level: 'Node editors' - edit any given page of the docs, but > not the logical structure. > * Bottom level: Joe public - able to add comments to a page. Comments > may or may not be included in 'official doc releases' but always give > ideas for those editing the docs. This idea works for a Wiki pretty well. I think there is a natural limit to how useful purely collaborative documentation is. When it comes to an action that can destroy or make surprise data changes, I'd like Fedora users to know they can come to a more trusted authority. For example, I've used forum answers at linuxquestions.org as a starting place that helps refine the search. Rarely is the final answer to be found there. Much of the easy and useful pieces have already been produced by the Fedora documentation efforts. Those have a different scope than we do. Full tutorials and how-to documentation is different from short how-to documents. We take more time to write longer documents, but the result is something that is well tested and useful to a wide audience. It is something worth maintaining, instead of a collaborative posting that may get abandoned. One of the founding principles of the Fedora docs project was to attempt the quality of Red Hat Linux documentation. To do this requires a more formalized writing discipline. It's like the difference between an article published in a magazine and a blog. All that said, I agree that we can consider some of our content areas and audience as being best served with collaborative docs in a Wiki. I'd consider these on case-by-case basis. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tuxxer at cox.net Fri Apr 1 08:54:17 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 00:54:17 -0800 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 08:16 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 22:17 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/gui-update.html > > > > afaik I know yum is the recommended command line > > program to use instead of up2date in fedora. if you > > have sections on both yum and up2date you probably > > need to explain the differences too which I would > > consider out of scope for this article > > Since the section is about doing GUI updates, up2date is the right > utility. The up2date utility is still maintained for Fedora by Adrian > Likins, and works well. The following section in the tutorial talks > about using yum as a CLI update program, so I'm a little confused about > your last sentence there. (I use up2date at the command line for > several of my more modest FC systems that don't have a GUI, but yum > works great too.) > > I think putting in a link to the update-tutorial at &FDPDOCS-URL; might > be a worthwhile edit. > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE > Is there an update tutorial? If so, I missed in at the site. I would be happy to link to it, once I knew where it was. ;-) -Charlie -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Fri Apr 1 08:52:02 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:52:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050401085202.63813.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > Is there an update tutorial? If so, I missed in at > the site. I would > be happy to link to it, once I knew where it was. > ;-) > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/updates/ Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From tuxxer at cox.net Fri Apr 1 09:03:48 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 01:03:48 -0800 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <1112262161.24164.230787235@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112262161.24164.230787235@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1112346228.5284.42.camel@bach> On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 10:42 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:17:12 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" > said: > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter2.html > > > > Since this is out of scope for your document by your > > own admission it would be better to just drop this. > > Kernel recompilation or additional hardening is > > unnecessary for the large majority of users and worse > > gives the idea that the kernel requires active manual > > intervention to make it secure. > > I think that the main issue is that the specified audience ("all users") > doesn't match up with the intent (a comprehensive security overview). I > don't see there's anything wrong with saying that it's a detailed guide > for more advanced users, and leaving the basic security stuff for > another doc - 1) don't mess with the defaults without a reason, 2) run > updates, 3) there is no step 3 :) > > > > -- > > Stuart Ellis > Well, I think there is a little bit of both opinions here. Maybe there are some assumptions that I have made that would be beyond the most basic user. And I admit that this could be a failing of my writing. I've been using Linux off and on since '97, so some assumptions I make may be completely obscured to the most basic user. While this document isn't meant to be the end-all-be-all document to securing a Fedora system, I think that it covers a fairly broad spectrum of potential readers. And, I think that it should serve as a guide to users who are just beginning in linux, and those who maybe familiar with linux, but aren't aware of some of the security problems associated with it. I can agree, that for the time being, the kernel hardening section could probably be left out. I do, however, believe that it has a place here, and eventually would like to see it return to this document - or perhaps be included in a larger scope, more detailed document that was perhaps more of a collaboration. I also think that before the kernel hardening section returns that there should be a kernel compilation guide. -Charlie -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tuxxer at cox.net Fri Apr 1 09:08:55 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 01:08:55 -0800 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <20050401085202.63813.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050401085202.63813.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112346535.5284.44.camel@bach> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 00:52 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > > > Is there an update tutorial? If so, I missed in at > > the site. I would > > be happy to link to it, once I knew where it was. > > ;-) > > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/updates/ > > Regards > Rahul Sundaram > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Messenger > Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. > http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest Thanks. -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Fri Apr 1 10:15:09 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:45:09 +0530 Subject: How to submission Message-ID: <424D1F2D.6030906@hclcomnet.co.in> Hi, I have written a tutorial on installing Oracle 9i on FC3. Basically 9i installation on RAS 1,2,3 RH 9, fc1, fc 2 is documented fairly well but its hard to find anything worth while on FC3, some people even suggested installing Oracle 9i on FC3 is not possible !! .This How to attempts to condense all my experience /findings with any such info peculiar to FC3 which scattered all over web in to one concise but useful Doc. Regards, Gaurav -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Fri Apr 1 11:18:49 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:18:49 +0100 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <1112346228.5284.42.camel@bach> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112262161.24164.230787235@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112346228.5284.42.camel@bach> Message-ID: <1112354329.10557.230881837@webmail.messagingengine.com> > Well, I think there is a little bit of both opinions here. Maybe there > are some assumptions that I have made that would be beyond the most > basic user. And I admit that this could be a failing of my writing. > I've been using Linux off and on since '97, so some assumptions I make > may be completely obscured to the most basic user. While this document > isn't meant to be the end-all-be-all document to securing a Fedora > system, I think that it covers a fairly broad spectrum of potential > readers. And, I think that it should serve as a guide to users who are > just beginning in linux, and those who maybe familiar with linux, but > aren't aware of some of the security problems associated with it. Please don't take my comment as a criticism of your text - I like it a lot. The thing is that I support people on forums and really do see questions like "I don't like Windows and I've got these Fedora discs, what do I do now ?". Sometimes even advanced Windows users are a complete state of bewilderment because of all the new concepts they are hit with (source code vs. packages, su and root privileges etc. etc.). If you hit a newbie with a large chunk of information at once they lose confidence and give up, even though they are capable of understanding it. I feel that your guide is for people comfortable enough with Linux to have the confidence to work through it, but I also feel that it's a good overview for that audience. -- Stuart Ellis From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 13:03:23 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:03:23 -0500 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <1112323598.5284.31.camel@bach> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112323598.5284.31.camel@bach> Message-ID: <1112360603.4878.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 18:46 -0800, tuxxer wrote: > On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 22:17 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter1.html > > > > The parts about using gpg or md5 requires more > > explanation. If you are explaning it in a later part > > refer to that > A detailed discussion of these utilities doesn't fall within the scope > of this document. However, a glossing of how to create a gpg keypair, > and how to check files with both gpg and md5sum will be added shortly. You can use my page on the fedoraproject.org wiki as a jumping off point to save some time if you wish: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/CreatingKeys > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/services-gui.html > > > > > > " The services that you can *safely* disable will > > depend upon the role of your system." > > > > if you need to emphasise on safely use italics or what > > the style guide recommends. > > > > " > > yum - Enable daily run of yum, a program updater. > > (This will depend on your environment.)" > > > > since every service is pretty much dependant on the > > role of the system special emphasis for the yum deamon > > is unnecessary > > True. However, I specifically said this for yum because I can think of > environments in which the user would NOT want updates to be run every > night automatically. Perhaps I can make a comment here that would be a > little more clear to that end. Interestingly, a related thread came up on fedora-legacy-list just recently. Some people running automatic updates on production Fedora servers -- I know, I know... not a good idea! -- were recently inconvenienced by a mysql-server upgrade that killed the service without a proper restart. (Sorry, I don't remember the exact details.) I wouldn't put anything about this in your guide; I merely thought your comment was definitely on target. quoth Rahul: > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/userconfig-cli.html > > > > " Below is a list of user accounts that most Fedora > > Core users will want to disable." > > > > The above wording suggests that most users of Fedora > > do not run the services that follows it. It would be > > better to say something like this > > > > "The following are some of the services that you might > > want to disable in the system depending on the your > > requirements" Or, in a more stylistically pleasing manner: ;-) "Depending on your system requirements, you may want to disable some of the following services: ..." -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 13:09:00 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:09:00 -0500 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> Message-ID: <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 00:54 -0800, tuxxer wrote: [...snip...] > > I think putting in a link to the update-tutorial at &FDPDOCS-URL; might > > be a worthwhile edit. > > -- > > Paul W. Frields, RHCE > > Is there an update tutorial? If so, I missed in at the site. I would > be happy to link to it, once I knew where it was. ;-) "Keeping Up to Date" on http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/ IIRC. However, it is in need of some authorial and editorial lovin', in my opinion. There's nothing about up2date on it, for example, and while I was hoping to whip it into an "Audrey Hepburn" level of style, it appears to have petered out somewhere around "Li'l Kim." At some point I started a stem-to-stern rewrite of this document, but I appear to have lost it somewhere in the wild tundra of my hard disk(s). I was going to wait to Bugzilla this issue until I had a solution ready -- because if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate -- but I may change my mind shortly just so there's a record of my concerns somewhere more accessible than the list archives. In the meantime, what's there is usable, and any changes should maintain the URL, so a link would be appropriate. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Fri Apr 1 13:18:48 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 18:48:48 +0530 Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: <424D1F2D.6030906@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <424D1F2D.6030906@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <424D4A38.4080307@hclcomnet.co.in> Hi list, this is the first time I have submitted a Tutorial (intact somebody on on dev list suggested I should post it docs list) as I am not aware procedure or approval cycle pl guide me in this case Regards, Gaurav gaurav wrote: > Hi, > I have written a tutorial on installing Oracle 9i on FC3. Basically 9i > installation on RAS 1,2,3 RH 9, fc1, fc 2 is documented fairly well > but its hard to find anything worth while on FC3, some people even > suggested installing Oracle 9i on FC3 is not possible !! .This How to > attempts to condense all my experience /findings with any such info > peculiar to FC3 which scattered all over web in to one concise but > useful Doc. > > Regards, > Gaurav > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Oracle 9i under Fedora Core 3 - Installation How to > >Gaurav >gauravpd at gmail.com > > v1.0-pre1, April 1, 2005 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This tutorial describes how to install Oracle 9i on Fedora Core 3 (or > greater) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Table of Contents* > > Oracle 9i under Fedora Core 3 - Installation How to 1 > > 1. Introduction 2 > > 1.1 Acknowledgments 3 > > 1.2 Revision History 3 > > 1.3 New versions of this document 3 > > 1.4 Feedback 3 > > 1.5 Distribution Policy 3 > > 2. Get Oracle 9i 5 > > 2.1 CD Installation 5 > > 2.2 Download 5 > > 3. Create users and Directories 5 > > 3.1 Create users and groups 5 > > 3.2 Create the directories 5 > > 4. Set Environmental variables 6 > > 4.1 Edit .bash_profile 6 > > 5. Set Kernel Parameters 7 > > 5.1 Edit /etc/sysctl.conf 7 > > 5.2 Edit /etc/security/limits.conf 7 > > 6. Install GCC 2.9 Compat libraries 7 > > 6.1 Install GCC 2.96 Compat packages 7 > > 6.2 Create symbolic links 8 > > 7. Run Installer 8 > > 7.1 Apply libwait.c patch 8 > > 7.2 Export Display variable 9 > > 7.3 Finally Run the Installation 9 > > 7.4 Fix nodeinfo 9 > > 7. Startup script 10 > > Miscellaneous Errors 11 > > > > 1. Introduction > > This tutorial was written due to my frustration on installing Oracle > 9i on FC3. Basically 9i installation on RAS 1,2,3 RH 9, fc1, fc 2 is > documented fairly well but its hard to find anything worth while on > FC3 , some people even suggested installing Oracle 9i on FC3 is not > possible !! . This How to attempts to condense all my experience > /findings with any such info peculiar to FC3 which scattered all over > web in to one concise but useful Doc. > > I hope you might find this short tutorial useful > > If you need to install Oracle 9i on FC3 than you must know/ look at > following fact > > * > > Fedora is not *Officially Supported* by Oracle Corp > > * > > Oracle 9i installation is difficult but *possible *in FC3 > > * > > Oracle 9i CANNOT be linked with the libraries used by gcc 3.4 > Under FC3, you need to use, (its only possible thru Fc2 compat > library) > > * > > Oracle 10 G installation method does NOT WORKS with 9i > > * > > This How to deals with Red hat products >= f3 or higher or gcc > version greater than 2.9 other wise if you are installing any > other Redhat product you might want look at other exellent > tutorials at (http://www.puschitz.com/OracleOnLinux.shtml , > http://oracle-base.com/ ) > > also > > * > > This howto is aim to assist you only ...there is NOTHING > OFFICIAL about !! so i am not responsible if > > * > > I am not a DBA ..so do not mail me Help pl!! types mail (a > better place would be Oracle forums ) , but any suggestion or > improvement in How to is appreciated > > * > > Next probable step for me is to write some bash or Perl scripts > to fully automate this tideous and boring , frustrating, manual > process but that depends on spare time I get , your inputs are > welcome :-) > > > 1.1 Acknowledgments > > I would like to thank Jean Francois for helping me out on most tricky part > > > 1.2 Revision History > > Version 1.0-pre1 ? March 25, 2005. > > Version 1.1 -April 1,2005 added miscellaneous errors section > > > > 1.3 New versions of this document > > The latest version can be found at > http://www.pagux.com/oracle9ionfedora3.html > > > > 1.4 Feedback > > I rely on you, the reader, to make this HOWTO useful. If you have any > suggestions, corrections or comments, please send them to me ( > gauravpd at gmail.com ), and I will > try to incorporate them in the next revision. > > > 1.5 Distribution Policy > > Copyright 2005/2006 Gaurav Prasad > > This HOWTO is free documentation; you can redistribute it and/or > modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as > published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the > License, or (at your option) any later version. > > This document is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but > *without any warranty*; without even the implied warranty of > *merchantability* or *fitness for a particular purpose*. See the GNU > General Public License for more details. > > You can obtain a copy of the GNU General Public License by writing to > the Free Software Foundation , Inc., 675 Mass > Ave, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. > > > > > > 2. Get Oracle 9i > > > 2.1 CD Installation > > * > > If you got Oracle 9i CD then mount it > > * > > mkisofs -r -o ora9id1.iso Disk1/,loop=/dev/loop0 cd_image mount_dir > > > 2.2 Download > > * > > Otherwise download it from > > * > > otn.*oracle*.com/software/products/ > *oracle9i*/htdocs/*linux*soft.html ( You will need to following) > > * > > Extract all three files as > > * > > gunzip ship_9204_linux_disk1.cpio > > * > > cpio -idmv -I ship_9204_linux_disk1.cpio (Dont forget -I option > other wise it give error during extraction ) > > * > > This will expand to folder Disk1 (Repeat the process other two > files) > > > > 3. Create users and Directories > > > 3.1 Create users and groups > >groupadd oinstall >groupadd dba >groupadd oper >groupadd apache > >useradd -g oinstall -G dba oracle >passwd oracle > > > 3.2 Create the directories > > in which the Oracle software will be installed: > >|*mkdir /u01 /u02*| >|*chown oracle.dba /u01 /u02*| >|*chmod 755 /u01 /u02*| > > > 4. Set Environmental variables > > > 4.1 Edit .bash_profile > > * > > Log as oracle user > > * > > su ? oracle > > * > > Edit .bash_profile > > * > > vim .bash_profile add following > >############################################################################ >############################ Oracle Variables###################################### >echo " Wel come to oracle"; >ORACLE_BASE=/u01/app/oracle >ORACLE_OWNER=oracle; export ORACLE_OWNER >ORACLE_TERM=xterm; export ORACLE_TERM >ORACLE_HOME=/u01/app/oracle/product/9.2.0.1.0 >ORACLE_SID=ORTD >LD_PRELOAD=$HOME/libcwait.so >export DISPLAY=172.28.66.39:0.0 >PATH=$PATH:$ORACLE_HOME/bin >LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$LD_LIBRARY_PATH:$ORACLE_HOME/lib:$ORACLE_HOME/network/lib > >CLASSPATH=$ORACLE_HOME/JRE:$ORACLE_HOME/jlib:$ORACLE_HOME/rdbms/jlib; export CLASSPATH > >LD_ASSUME_KERNEL=2.4.1; export LD_ASSUME_KERNEL >THREADS_FLAG=native; export THREADS_FLAG >TMP=/tmp; export TMP >TMPDIR=$TMP; export TMPDIR > >export PATH ORACLE_BASE ORACLE_HOME ORACLE_SID LD_LIBRARY_PATH LD_PRELOAD >###############################Oracle################################## > > > 5. Set Kernel Parameters > > > 5.1 Edit /etc/sysctl.conf > > * > > Add following lines can be added to the /etc/sysctl.conf file: > >kernel.shmmax = 2147483648 >kernel.shmmni = 128 >kernel.shmall = 2097152 >kernel.sem = 250 32000 100 128 >fs.file-max = 65536 >net.ipv4.ip_local_port_range = 1024 65000 > > > 5.2 Edit /etc/security/limits.conf > > * > > In addition the following lines can be added to the > /etc/security/limits.conf file: > >oracle soft nofile 65536 >oracle hard nofile 65536 >oracle soft nproc 16384 >oracle hard nproc 16384 > > * > > Adding lines into these files requires a reboot before they take > effect. > > > 6. Install GCC 2.9 Compat libraries > > > 6.1 Install GCC 2.96 Compat packages > > * > > From Fedora Core TWO (note if newer FC3 packages are installed > use rpm -i ?force ) > >compat-libstdc++-7.3-2.96 >compat-libstdc++-devel-7.3-2.96 >compat-gcc-7.3-2.96.118.i386.rpm >compat-gcc-c++-7.3-2.96 > > * > > From Fedora Core THREE > >compat-db > > * > > If don't install GCC compat libraries as above you get zillion > linking error > > > 6.2 Create symbolic links > > * > > Put gcc296 and g++296 first in $PATH variable by creating the > following symbolic links: > >mv /usr/bin/gcc /usr/bin/gcc323 >mv /usr/bin/g++ /usr/bin/g++323 >ln -s /usr/bin/gcc296 /usr/bin/gcc >ln -s /usr/bin/g++296 /usr/bin/g++ > > > 7. Run Installer > > > 7.1 Apply libwait.c patch > > * > > Before you run installer you do following to over come some > weird errors > > * > > Complie libwait.c (in /home/oracle) > > * > > Save this as libcwait.c and do as explained in the comment: > > /* Compile with > > gcc -shared -o libcwait.so libcwait.c -fpic -O > > and use it by adding > > > LD_PRELOAD=/path/to/libcwait.so > > in the environment of the application with the bug. > > */ > #include > #include > #include > #include > pid_t > __libc_wait (int *status) > { > int res; > asm volatile ("pushl %%ebx\n\t" > "movl %2, %%ebx\n\t" > "movl %1, %%eax\n\t" > "int $0x80\n\t" > "popl %%ebx" > : "=a" (res) > : "i" (__NR_wait4), "0" (WAIT_ANY), "c" (status), "d" (0), > "S" (0)); > return res; > } > > > * > > Compile gcc -shared -o libcwait.so libcwait.c -fpic -O > > * > > Then do > export LD_PRELOAD=/home/oracle/libcwait.so > > > 7.2 Export Display variable > > * > > |xhost +localhost > export DISPLAY=localhost:0.0| > > * > > |if above doest work take vnc connection to server and run > installation (su ? oracle and the vncserver to start vncserver)| > > > |*7.3 Finally Run the Installation*| > > * > > /path/to/oracle/Disk1/runInstaller > > * > > Now carry with Graphical setup (if you are not sure choose > Standard database )...from here its really easy > > > 7.4 Fix nodeinfo > > * > > Now installation should proceed without any linking errors but > you will get one error in end > > Parameter "nodeinfo" = NO_VALUE >Agent Service Failed > > * > > For do this after setup > > * > >netca & (this run wizard) > > * > > cd $ORACLE_HOME and run ./lsnrctl start > > * > > check if its running $ ps afx | grep LISTEN | grep -v grep > > > 7. Startup script > > * > > You have to write startup a script so that oracle can > automatically be started as reboot and easily control service > using service command > > * > > create a start up a start script as following > > * > > vim /etc/init.d/oracle > > * > > add following to it > >#!/bin/bash ># ># Run-level Startup script for the Oracle Instance and Listener ># ># chkconfig: 345 91 19 ># description: Startup/Shutdown Oracle listener and instance > >ORA_HOME="/u01/app/oracle/product/9.2.0.1.0" >ORA_OWNR="oracle" > ># if the executables do not exist -- display error > >if [ ! -f $ORA_HOME/bin/dbstart -o ! -d $ORA_HOME ] >then > echo "Oracle startup: cannot start" > exit 1 >fi > ># depending on parameter -- startup, shutdown, restart ># of the instance and listener or usage display > >case "$1" in > start) > # Setting up kernel parameters > #echo 100 32000 100 100 > /proc/sys/kernel/sem > #echo 2147483648 > /proc/sys/kernel/shmmax > #echo 4096 > /proc/sys/kernel/shmmni > #echo 2097152 > /proc/sys/kernel/shmall > #echo 65536 > /proc/sys/fs/file-max > #ulimit -n 65536 > #echo 1024 65000 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_local_port_range > #ulimit -u 16384 > > # Oracle listener and instance startup > echo -n "Starting Oracle: " > su - $ORA_OWNR -c "$ORA_HOME/bin/lsnrctl start" > su - $ORA_OWNR -c $ORA_HOME/bin/dbstart > touch /var/lock/subsys/oracle > echo "OK" > ;; > stop) > # Oracle listener and instance shutdown > echo -n "Shutdown Oracle: " > su - $ORA_OWNR -c "$ORA_HOME/bin/lsnrctl stop" > su - $ORA_OWNR -c $ORA_HOME/bin/dbshut > rm -f /var/lock/subsys/oracle > echo "OK" > ;; > reload|restart) > $0 stop > $0 start > ;; > *) > echo "Usage: $0 start|stop|restart|reload" > exit 1 >esac >exit 0 > > * > > Now run command chkconfig oracle (this will create init scripts) > > * > > now service oracle start|stop|restart should work > > > Miscellaneous Errors > > *ERROR: > ORA-01034: ORACLE not available > ORA-27101: shared memory realm does not exist > Linux Error: 2: No such file or directory * > > This error happens when you reboot and try to login ... you will get > lot of errors as database instance is not mounted/started automatically > *Step 1* > In /etc/oratab If you have: > *:/opt/oracle/OraHome1:N > ordb:/opt/oracle/OraHome1:N > > edit it to *:/opt/oracle/OraHome1:Y > ordb:/opt/oracle/OraHome1:Y > > here N means No and Y means Yes ....so you basically asking database > to start automatically when you reboot or stop service > *Step 2 * > after that try to initialize database > $ORACLE_HOME/bin/dbstart > > if you get error > > *No start entry for SID * at /opt/oracle/OraHome1 in /etc/oratab* > > this might be due a bug in dbstart script looking at sid file wrong place > then -> > cp $ORACLE_BASE/admin/$ORACLE_SID/pfile/init_*.ora > $ORACLE_HOME/dbs/init$ORACLE_SID.ora > > and > $ sqlplus '/ as sysdba' > SQL> create pfile from spfile; > SQL> exit > run the db start script > $ORACLE_HOME/bin/dbstart > > > > > |*if you reached this state with any errors the Congrats !! Relax :-) > ...Go have a cup of coffee or call your girl friend *| > > > > > > > > > > > > > From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Fri Apr 1 13:22:07 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:22:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: <424D4A38.4080307@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <20050401132207.46906.qmail@web8508.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- gaurav wrote: > Hi list, > this is the first time I have submitted a Tutorial > (intact somebody on > on dev list suggested I should post it docs list) > as I am not aware procedure or approval cycle pl > guide me in this case the suggestion from the devel was from me. we will have to convert the docs into docbook format eventually for submission so if you are interested in doing that you can find details on that and other info here http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ if you do have any other questions feel free to ask Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 13:48:51 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:48:51 -0500 Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: <424D4A38.4080307@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <424D1F2D.6030906@hclcomnet.co.in> <424D4A38.4080307@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <1112363331.4878.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 18:48 +0530, gaurav wrote: > Hi list, > this is the first time I have submitted a Tutorial (intact somebody on > on dev list suggested I should post it docs list) > as I am not aware procedure or approval cycle pl guide me in this case In particular, you can read: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ You will probably be more concerned with the sections that concern writers, as opposed to editors, although understanding the whole document will help you with this process. If you don't understand any part of it, please post to the list for assistance. By doing so you may even help us improve the Quick Start Guide. You'll see a bunch of instructions about using DocBook XML for formatting your content. You may be able to ignore these, at least for the time being, if someone on the list would like to step up and assist. You'll find DocBook XML is not difficult at all -- if you can write a simple HTML page, you can write DocBook XML. I learned enough working on my first couple of documents to start using it at work for the small number of technical docs I need to write here. If you want to try it yourself, you will probably want to read this first: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ I don't want to overload you, so that's probably enough for now. We look forward to hearing back from you. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Fri Apr 1 13:58:21 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:58:21 +0100 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:09:00 -0500, "Paul W. Frields" said: > On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 00:54 -0800, tuxxer wrote: > [...snip...] > > > I think putting in a link to the update-tutorial at &FDPDOCS-URL; might > > > be a worthwhile edit. > > > -- > > > Paul W. Frields, RHCE > > > > Is there an update tutorial? If so, I missed in at the site. I would > > be happy to link to it, once I knew where it was. ;-) > > "Keeping Up to Date" on http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/ IIRC. However, it > is in need of some authorial and editorial lovin', in my opinion. > There's nothing about up2date on it, for example, and while I was hoping > to whip it into an "Audrey Hepburn" level of style, it appears to have > petered out somewhere around "Li'l Kim." > I noticed the same thing and wrote this, which includes up2date: http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/software-management-en/ I posted a earlier draft but then let it slide, partly because I saw the announcement about PUP and hoped that it could be promoted instead of up2date + CLI yum for FC4. -- Stuart Ellis From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 14:18:37 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:18:37 -0500 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 14:58 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > > I think putting in a link to the update-tutorial at &FDPDOCS-URL; might > > > > be a worthwhile edit. > > > > > > Is there an update tutorial? If so, I missed in at the site. I would > > > be happy to link to it, once I knew where it was. ;-) > > > > "Keeping Up to Date" on http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/ IIRC. However, it > > is in need of some authorial and editorial lovin', in my opinion. > > There's nothing about up2date on it, for example, and while I was hoping > > to whip it into an "Audrey Hepburn" level of style, it appears to have > > petered out somewhere around "Li'l Kim." > > I noticed the same thing and wrote this, which includes up2date: > > http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/software-management-en/ > > I posted a earlier draft but then let it slide, partly because I saw the > announcement about PUP and hoped that it could be promoted instead of > up2date + CLI yum for FC4. Stuart, this is excellent, and looks much closer to what I wrote (and subsequently lost). It also reads very crisply and is a good example to newer writers! I would like to see this replace the current tutorial if possible, after a suitable period of public comment and editorial process. Any extra material that the original "updates" tutorial covers could and should be subsumed into this one. I don't know what the current status of pup is... can you suggest a URL or summarize here? In any case, if pup's not ready for prime time in FC4, we can always add information about it to this document later. Karsten, what say you? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Fri Apr 1 15:11:02 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:11:02 +0100 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112368262.28626.230896120@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:18:37 -0500, "Paul W. Frields" said: Thanks :) > Any extra material that the original "updates" tutorial covers could and should be subsumed into this one. >From memory, the current tutorial is pretty concise, and just focuses on updates. > I don't know what the current status of pup is... can you suggest a URL or summarize here? I haven't seen a Website announcement - there was a mail to the config tools development list in January this year, and a presentation by Paul Nasrat and Seth Vidal at FUDCON 1 (I read an extract on the Website). -- Stuart Ellis From gustavo.seabra at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 15:25:44 2005 From: gustavo.seabra at gmail.com (Gustavo Seabra) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:25:44 -0600 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: <1112343461.9412.355.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112300128.9412.303.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112302844.6790.4.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> <1112343461.9412.355.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 2:17 AM, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 22:27 -0600, Gustavo Seabra wrote: > > The question now comes to which form to adopt: DocBook or Wiki? > > > > Based on maturity, since this document has gone through 4 draft > > versions, all discussed openly in the list, I believe it is mature > > enough to get the DocBook format. It would also give it a more > > "official" look. However, it seems to me, the DocBook is a more closed > > format, with more restrict access. > > What I understand you to mean is, it is harder to learn how to use and > manipulate DocBook than a Wiki. That is true. Well, not really. The point isn't the difficulty, Duncan has even already volunteered to do the DocBook translation. My question is more about the /character/ of the document. I now understand the advantages of DocBook, and it seems a wonderful tool for writing the system documentation. The question is: is it appropriate for a /mailing list guidelines/? Or would that be better written in a lighter format, but which lacks the flexibility of the DocBook? I really don't know. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University Registered Linux user number 381680 ------------------------------------------------------------------ If at first you don't succeed... ...skydiving is not for you. From duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk Fri Apr 1 16:39:51 2005 From: duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk (Duncan Lithgow) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 18:39:51 +0200 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: <1112343461.9412.355.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112300128.9412.303.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112302844.6790.4.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> <1112343461.9412.355.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1112373591.5921.7.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 00:17 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 22:27 -0600, Gustavo Seabra wrote: > > I believe that there should > > be only one version of it. > > I agree. You only want to maintain one source and derive all others > from that. Since it was probably my suggestion of a wiki version that has caused some confusion I should mention that I also agree there should only be one 'official' version. However much of my background in online writing is based on work with http://indymedia.org and their documentation project http://docs.indymedia.org . So collaborative effort is something I believe strongly in and have seen the fruits of - but I'm digressing... > > The question now comes to which form to adopt: DocBook or Wiki? Of course wiki is unsuited to an 'official' version, but is DocBook really suited, as Gustavo wonders, to an email list users guide? I'm inclined to feel that the 'official' version should be plain ascii - after all that's what we want people to use on the list. All other forms can then be derivatives of that. Or would it work for the 'official version to be DocBook which can generate a txt file? hmmm, not sure myself Duncan From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 1 21:09:29 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 13:09:29 -0800 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: <1112373591.5921.7.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1112300128.9412.303.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112302844.6790.4.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> <1112343461.9412.355.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112373591.5921.7.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <1112389769.9412.423.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 18:39 +0200, Duncan Lithgow wrote: > Or would it work for the 'official version to be DocBook which can > generate a txt file? Exactly. Then you can paste the text output into a Wiki without further editing and have Good Enough. There are ways to get DocBook out of Wiki, but it's not really a two-way operation, aiui. Any document, no matter how small, can benefit from DocBook. If this document is past rapid-pace collaboration and is ready for submission here, let's put it in DocBook XML. There is a Style Guidelines chapter coming out soon for the project Documentation Guide. We'll want to do the final edit of the Fedora-List Guidelines using that. You can do the XML conversion now, and we can do the style guide edit later. Is there any current or wanting to be editor with some time to be the assigned editor for the Fedora-List Guidelines? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 1 22:49:39 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:49:39 -0800 Subject: release notes process Message-ID: <1112395780.9412.448.camel@erato.phig.org> http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs/RelNotes/RelNotesProcess The release notes is a great example of the recruitment points discussed in another thread. It's interesting, being modular shouldn't be too time consuming, keeps you close to what you are working on or wanting to learn about, etc. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 1 23:54:43 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:54:43 -0800 Subject: Self-Introduction: Duncan Lithgow In-Reply-To: <1112289456.5919.40.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1112289456.5919.40.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <1112399683.9412.469.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 19:17 +0200, Duncan Lithgow wrote: > from: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fSelfIntroduction > > The below items in bold are Required while the other items are > optional but highly recommended. > > WTF!!?? People volunteer to help and get rather long list of *required* > information!!?? I reserve further comment and decided it would be bad > form for a new user to edit the wiki... I won't even start talking about > right to privacy and the idea of a meritocracy! I changed the word to "Requested", since this matches the concept and spirit better. Hopefully less offensive, eh? ;-) > I'm a trained 'english as a foreign language' (efl/esl) teacher > - so i'm passionate on the need for docs written in easy to > understand english - far too much is written for advanced > english speakers - think how many non english speakers try to > make use of these docs. I suffer from overly complex English in my writing. I am very interested in this subject, particularly for self-improvement and the usability of FLOSS in developing nations. We haven't connected much with the internationalization (i18n) project, but when we do have something to ask them to translate, I'd like it to be good from the start. Please watch for the style guide announcement, perhaps as early as next week. We want to address writing for i18n at the earliest stages of document creation. I'll be curious to see your comments on what it says about these subjects. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Apr 2 00:01:36 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:01:36 -0800 Subject: how to recruit writers In-Reply-To: <424C5462.90708@wanadoo.fr> References: <424C5462.90708@wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: <1112400097.9412.478.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 21:49 +0200, samuel desseaux wrote: > I 've read this interessant message and would be happy to get involved > in the docs project. > I'm French,29,Linux user (and addict) since a long time. In my free > time, i like to contribute to free softwares projects (as developer or > translator,writer). > I am a Fedora user since last year and it's very wonderful (with my 64 > bits,that's amazing ).That's for why i want to contribute to Fedora as > writer (and developer if i have enough time).It would be for me a very > good and learnful experience. > So,tell me what i can (or could) do. We can use writers and editors for just about any subject you want to write about. The technical level does not matter, Fedora users are all technical levels. :) The Fedora docs project has not yet worked closely with the Fedora internationlization (i18n) project (fedora-i18n-list). If you want to do translation of documentation, you want to work through them. You can be a part of both projects. If you want to write documentation in French, you will have to write with the same considerations for translation. We would also need an editor who reads French. This idea is interesting to me, we have never considered this before. So, it is just an idea at this point. :) Another idea, if you want to work in English, perhaps the Installation Guide would benefit from a multi-lingual writing team. They could write for translation, and in your case, even do the translation of your own section. This is another idea we would need to discuss with the i18n team. Lot's of good ideas. Welcome, Sam. :) - Karsten (who isn't and doesn't speak German) -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Apr 2 00:11:30 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:11:30 -0800 Subject: new project leader In-Reply-To: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112400691.9412.485.camel@erato.phig.org> Heh, I forgot to reply to this. :) On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 16:19 -0500, Tammy Fox wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Thanks to everyone who has helped with the Fedora docs project. After a > slow start, I think we are steadily gaining momentum. Yes, there is a lot of good energy. This is an awesome time to be doing documentation in Fedora and at Red Hat. > >From the Red Hat side, Karsten Wade has really stepped up and > demonstrated leadership potential. So much potential in fact, that I > have decided to turn over leadership of the project to him. Most > projects change leadership once a year or more, and I think this is a > great idea for our project as well. In the future, the project leader > will change on a yearly basis, if not sooner. Thanks for the vote of confidence, Tammy. :) As she said elsewhere, the real strength of the project is in the steering committee. The chair/project leader just keeps that committee on track, and makes or enforces decisions. The chair takes actions with the consensus of the committee. This is inline with the meritocracy philosophy behind the Fedora Project. Still, someone has to be willing to find the consensus, make decisions amid the storm, and all that. For now, that'll be me. Later, someone else from the steering committee will fill the position, and then maybe I'll be back again. :) More about this committee is forthcoming, Real Soon Now. Tammy, thanks again for your steady leadership and foundation that the whole project is built upon. I'm dern glad you are going to be on the committee. ;-) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gustavo.seabra at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 08:20:07 2005 From: gustavo.seabra at gmail.com (Gustavo Seabra) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 02:20:07 -0600 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: <1112389769.9412.423.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112300128.9412.303.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112302844.6790.4.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> <1112343461.9412.355.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112373591.5921.7.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> <1112389769.9412.423.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 3:09 PM, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 18:39 +0200, Duncan Lithgow wrote: > > > Or would it work for the 'official version to be DocBook which can > > generate a txt file? > > Exactly. Then you can paste the text output into a Wiki without further > editing and have Good Enough. Great. > > There are ways to get DocBook out of Wiki, but it's not really a two-way > operation, aiui. Any document, no matter how small, can benefit from > DocBook. If this document is past rapid-pace collaboration and is ready > for submission here, let's put it in DocBook XML. That answers my question. I understand that Duncan volunteered to do the DocBook translation, right? That's great. If there's anything else I can do to help, just let me know. Cheers, -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University Registered Linux user number 381680 ------------------------------------------------------------------ If at first you don't succeed... ...skydiving is not for you. From sam1975 at wanadoo.fr Sat Apr 2 16:21:14 2005 From: sam1975 at wanadoo.fr (samuel desseaux) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:21:14 +0200 Subject: tow to recruit writers Message-ID: <424EC67A.3080603@wanadoo.fr> Hi ! I've read your answer with a great interest. Globally,i agree with you with your ideas.For me,they are good.Be a part of documentation and localisation project sounds like a good idea because they are complementary. Moreover,you speak about writing documentation in French and you would need an editor who could read french:why not?i could be interested. best regards sam From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Sat Apr 2 17:16:28 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:16:28 +0200 Subject: Self-Introduction: Duncan Lithgow In-Reply-To: <1112399683.9412.469.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112289456.5919.40.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> <1112399683.9412.469.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200504021916.28395.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Saturday 02 April 2005 01:54, Karsten Wade wrote: > I suffer from overly complex English in my writing. I am very > interested in this subject, particularly for self-improvement and the > usability of FLOSS in developing nations. We haven't connected much > with the internationalization (i18n) project, but when we do have > something to ask them to translate, I'd like it to be good from the > start. Release Notes! This is the most needed thing and there are people willing to do it. -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 17:41:56 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:41:56 -0500 Subject: Self-Introduction: Duncan Lithgow In-Reply-To: <200504021916.28395.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <1112289456.5919.40.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> <1112399683.9412.469.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504021916.28395.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <1112463716.5942.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-02 at 19:16 +0200, Ronny Buchmann wrote: > On Saturday 02 April 2005 01:54, Karsten Wade wrote: > > I suffer from overly complex English in my writing. I am very > > interested in this subject, particularly for self-improvement and the > > usability of FLOSS in developing nations. We haven't connected much > > with the internationalization (i18n) project, but when we do have > > something to ask them to translate, I'd like it to be good from the > > start. > Release Notes! > > This is the most needed thing and there are people willing to do it. Have you visited http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocsProject yet? There's a link there to the release notes: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fRelNotes_2fCore4Test1RelNotes If you find any problems or omissions, the second link on that page is a pre-formatted Bugzilla request you can use to enter a bug against the release notes. Thanks for your interest and we look forward to your continued input. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 17:51:36 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:51:36 -0500 Subject: FC4t1 Release Notes Message-ID: <1112464297.5942.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> These are in a fine place, since they are in potentially heavy flux. However, I think we need a link thereto on the following Fedora site pages: http://fedora.redhat.com/ http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/ http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/ These links probably do not need to survive past the final release date for FC4. BZ'd as #153196. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 19:17:17 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 14:17:17 -0500 Subject: xsl RFE? Message-ID: <1112469437.5942.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> I've found that while editing some FDP work, and using all the current material from CVS, HTML rendering is kind of ugly if you have an inside some other container like a (i.e., nested). Can anyone here suggest or make an enhancement that would add a small bit of whitespace after to make the text flow more pleasing? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sat Apr 2 22:31:30 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:31:30 -0600 Subject: xsl RFE? In-Reply-To: <1112469437.5942.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112469437.5942.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050402163130.51ada6c1.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > Can anyone here suggest or make an enhancement that would add a > small bit of whitespace after to make the text flow more > pleasing? Can you make a very small test case, post it and a screenshot? Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 22:44:41 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 17:44:41 -0500 Subject: xsl RFE? In-Reply-To: <20050402163130.51ada6c1.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1112469437.5942.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050402163130.51ada6c1.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1112481882.10013.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-02 at 16:31 -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > Can anyone here suggest or make an enhancement that would add a > > small bit of whitespace after to make the text flow more > > pleasing? > > Can you make a very small test case, post it and a screenshot? Sorry, see, e.g.: http://docs.frields.org/html/documentation-guide-en/sn-grammar-and- usage.html In particular, look at the top set of bullets under "Abbreviations," and how they run into the "Adjectives" heading. The XML is available at: http://www2.frields.org:8080/WebSVN/filedetails.php?repname=fedora- docs&path=%2Fdocumentation-guide%2Fdocs-style-en.xml&rev=0&sc=0 -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sat Apr 2 23:54:33 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:54:33 -0600 Subject: xsl RFE? In-Reply-To: <1112481882.10013.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112469437.5942.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050402163130.51ada6c1.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112481882.10013.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050402175433.104477a3.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > Can anyone here suggest or make an enhancement that would add a > > > small bit of whitespace after to make the text flow more > > > pleasing? > > > > Can you make a very small test case, post it and a screenshot? > > Sorry, see, e.g.: > http://docs.frields.org/html/documentation-guide-en/sn-grammar-and-usage.html Try adding this: div.itemizedlist ul,ol { margin-bottom: 1.5em; } to the bottom of "fedora.css" and see if you like it. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 01:20:20 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 20:20:20 -0500 Subject: xsl RFE? In-Reply-To: <20050402175433.104477a3.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1112469437.5942.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050402163130.51ada6c1.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112481882.10013.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050402175433.104477a3.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1112491220.5283.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-02 at 17:54 -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > > > Can anyone here suggest or make an enhancement that would add a > > > > small bit of whitespace after to make the text flow more > > > > pleasing? > > > > > > Can you make a very small test case, post it and a screenshot? > > > > Sorry, see, e.g.: > > http://docs.frields.org/html/documentation-guide-en/sn-grammar-and-usage.html > > Try adding this: > > div.itemizedlist ul,ol { > margin-bottom: 1.5em; > } > > to the bottom of "fedora.css" and see if you like it. Right, got my XSL confused with my CSS. :-D I hate it when that happens. Thanks for reminding me! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From kwade at redhat.com Sun Apr 3 01:37:34 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 17:37:34 -0800 Subject: Self-Introduction: Duncan Lithgow In-Reply-To: <200504021916.28395.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <1112289456.5919.40.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> <1112399683.9412.469.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504021916.28395.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <1112492255.9412.538.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2005-04-02 at 19:16 +0200, Ronny Buchmann wrote: > On Saturday 02 April 2005 01:54, Karsten Wade wrote: > > I suffer from overly complex English in my writing. I am very > > interested in this subject, particularly for self-improvement and the > > usability of FLOSS in developing nations. We haven't connected much > > with the internationalization (i18n) project, but when we do have > > something to ask them to translate, I'd like it to be good from the > > start. > Release Notes! > > This is the most needed thing and there are people willing to do it. I posted the first iteration of the release notes process here: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs/RelNotes/RelNotesProcess Scroll down to the heading, Release Notes Process - Iteration One, April 2005. The Wiki process described at the top of the page is short term only, hopefully we can supplant it with real changes to the relnotes for test3 For all -- if you want to help with the release notes as a writer, start by reading that process, make sure you understand the general FDP docs process, and come back here to tell us what you'd like to write about in the relnotes. As Paul pointed out, if you see -anything- in the relnotes on the Wiki that needs changing, file a bug report. The master tracking bug for the release notes is here, showing the dependency tree: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/showdependencytree.cgi?id=151189 And please do use the pre-filled bug from the Wiki, also as pointed out. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tuxxer at cox.net Sun Apr 3 05:50:39 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:50:39 -0800 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112507439.5284.49.camel@bach> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 22:17 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: [BIIIIG Snip] > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/iptables-fw-config.html > > it is possible to provide a port range here. More > information is available in the redhat docs. > redhat.com/docs. Where? I've looked in the RH documentation, the Security guide etc. I've run a couple searches. I've tried all of the "standard" range indicators (-:;,) .... I'll continue to google it, to see if I find anything, but if you have a specific link, that would be great! Thanks. -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Sun Apr 3 08:58:49 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:58:49 +0200 Subject: Self-Introduction: Ronny Buchmann Message-ID: <200504031058.49631.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Full legal name: Ronny Buchmann City, Country: near Stuttgart, Germany Profession or Student status: I've studied mechanical engineering, but now do system administration and support in CAE, PLM and Linux. Company or School this is my spare time, so it doesn't matter Your goals in the Fedora Project: (in order of priority) * translations (fedora packages and docs) * QA (mostly rawhide) and bugfixes * getting HBCI and DVB related stuff into FE (if I find the time) Historical qualifications: What other projects have you worked on in the past? * linuxwiki.de (german wiki about Linux and Free Software) * fedora translations (German) * fedora bug hunting * helping in openhbci2/aqmoney2 (rpmbuilding, man pages) * local LUG work (http://www.vlug.de) * some bug fixing in various projects What computer languages and other skills do you know? * a bit of python (getting better) * a bit of docbook, rpm building (mostly local), bash, C, perl * not relevant to Fedora I think: SAP, CATIA Why should we trust you? * search the web (http://www.google.de/search?q=Ronny+Buchmann, it's 99% me) and decide yourself GPG KEYID and fingerprint: pub 1024D/10373979 2003-07-11 Ronny Buchmann Key fingerprint = ED9D A9B8 8A38 52E9 2A1E 143D 47E4 DBC5 1037 3979 uid Ronny Buchmann uid Ronny Buchmann (VLUG) sub 1024g/94239780 2003-07-11 -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Sun Apr 3 09:11:59 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:11:59 +0200 Subject: Self-Introduction: Duncan Lithgow In-Reply-To: <1112492255.9412.538.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112289456.5919.40.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> <200504021916.28395.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> <1112492255.9412.538.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200504031112.00005.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Sunday 03 April 2005 03:37, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Sat, 2005-04-02 at 19:16 +0200, Ronny Buchmann wrote: > > On Saturday 02 April 2005 01:54, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > I suffer from overly complex English in my writing. I am very > > > interested in this subject, particularly for self-improvement and the > > > usability of FLOSS in developing nations. We haven't connected much > > > with the internationalization (i18n) project, but when we do have > > > something to ask them to translate, I'd like it to be good from the > > > start. > > > > Release Notes! > > > > This is the most needed thing and there are people willing to do it. > > I posted the first iteration of the release notes process here: Oh, I was refering to the i18n project, Release Notes need to be translated. Could you add me to the EditGroup? There are also a lot of Wiki Markup errors in almost all Pages :( I'm quite familiar with MoinMoin (the Wiki software) so I think I can help here. I think the Wiki is really the best way for the Release Notes. I could help with automatic conversion to Docbook if needed. -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 13:26:55 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 09:26:55 -0400 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <1112507439.5284.49.camel@bach> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112507439.5284.49.camel@bach> Message-ID: <1112534815.5326.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-02 at 21:50 -0800, tuxxer wrote: > On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 22:17 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > [BIIIIG Snip] > > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/iptables-fw-config.html > > > > it is possible to provide a port range here. More > > information is available in the redhat docs. > > redhat.com/docs. > > Where? I've looked in the RH documentation, the Security guide etc. > I've run a couple searches. I've tried all of the "standard" range > indicators (-:;,) .... > > I'll continue to google it, to see if I find anything, but if you have a > specific link, that would be great! I've read the Python code to the extent I'm able, and it *doesn't* appear to be possible. Colons are recognized as a token to separate ports and protocols, but other than that, only the first series of numerals up to any non-numeral will be used as a port designator. In other words, if you enter something like 9990-9999:tcp, no error gets thrown, but what iptables will get is "--port 9990:tcp". Of course the iptables command will take ranges, but not system-config-securitylevel. Rahul, from what source are you deriving this? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Apr 3 13:13:16 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 14:13:16 +0100 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (Was: hardening guide) In-Reply-To: <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 09:18 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/software-management-en/ > > > I would like to see this replace the current tutorial if > possible, after a suitable period of public comment and editorial > process. I've now uploaded a new version that is complete, i.e. there's no more of my own E&Os that I can see :). If it's considered a viable document I'll amend it in line with people's comments and formally propose it for submission. FWIW, this is written as a fairly complete overview of the topic. Sections 4-7 form a walk-through of setting up up2date suitable for a new user, and I'm happy to provide that material in a self-contained form for posting somewhere linkable, if it's of use. The source is here: http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/software-management-en-0.4.tar.gz From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 14:28:33 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 10:28:33 -0400 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (Was: hardening guide) In-Reply-To: <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 14:13 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 09:18 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/software-management-en/ > > > > > I would like to see this replace the current tutorial if > > possible, after a suitable period of public comment and editorial > > process. > > I've now uploaded a new version that is complete, i.e. there's no more > of my own E&Os that I can see :). If it's considered a viable document > I'll amend it in line with people's comments and formally propose it for > submission. > > FWIW, this is written as a fairly complete overview of the topic. > Sections 4-7 form a walk-through of setting up up2date suitable for a > new user, and I'm happy to provide that material in a self-contained > form for posting somewhere linkable, if it's of use. > > The source is here: > > http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/software-management-en-0.4.tar.gz Hmm, that link's not working for me. Do you have another? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Apr 3 16:50:51 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:50:51 +0100 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (updated links) In-Reply-To: <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> HTML: http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/software-management-en/index.html DocBook: http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/fedora-software-management-0.4.tar.gz -- Stuart Ellis From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Apr 3 18:12:02 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:12:02 -0500 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (updated links) In-Reply-To: <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050403131202.376a83c0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Stuart Ellis" , spake thus: > HTML: > > http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/software-management-en/index.html Dunno if it has been mentioned before, but could all those "su -c foo" lines be replaced by "sudo foo"? We should encourage the use of sudo(1) because it generates an audit trail, while "su -c" is untraceable. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Apr 3 18:37:35 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:37:35 +0100 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (updated links) In-Reply-To: <20050403131202.376a83c0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050403131202.376a83c0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1112553455.9764.12.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 13:12 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Stuart Ellis" , spake thus: > > > HTML: > > > > http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/software-management-en/index.html > > Dunno if it has been mentioned before, but could all those "su -c > foo" lines be replaced by "sudo foo"? We should encourage the use of > sudo(1) because it generates an audit trail, while "su -c" is untraceable. It's really a workaround for the fact that sudo isn't configured by default. I didn't think that I could safely use sudo in the example commands, since even if the Hardening Guide was up and could be linked to, there's no guarantee that the user/admin would have successfully gone through the setup beforehand. From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Apr 3 20:37:06 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:37:06 -0500 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (updated links) In-Reply-To: <1112553455.9764.12.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050403131202.376a83c0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112553455.9764.12.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <20050403153706.48a74f74.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Stuart Ellis , spake thus: > It's really a workaround for the fact that sudo isn't configured by > default. I didn't think that I could safely use sudo in the example > commands, since even if the Hardening Guide was up and could be linked > to, there's no guarantee that the user/admin would have successfully > gone through the setup beforehand. Point taken. I thought an un-configured sudo would degenerate to "su -c" but I was wrong. (I allow myself one error per year, and now I'm up to 1952 ;-) Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 20:38:49 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 16:38:49 -0400 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (updated links) In-Reply-To: <1112553455.9764.12.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050403131202.376a83c0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112553455.9764.12.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <1112560730.5575.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 19:37 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 13:12 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > Uttered "Stuart Ellis" , spake thus: > > > > > HTML: > > > > > > http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/software-management-en/index.html > > > > Dunno if it has been mentioned before, but could all those "su -c > > foo" lines be replaced by "sudo foo"? We should encourage the use of > > sudo(1) because it generates an audit trail, while "su -c" is untraceable. > > It's really a workaround for the fact that sudo isn't configured by > default. I didn't think that I could safely use sudo in the example > commands, since even if the Hardening Guide was up and could be linked > to, there's no guarantee that the user/admin would have successfully > gone through the setup beforehand. I like the idea of using sudo as well, but Stuart's obviously right in the more global sense of not making assumptions when you're writing a doc. But... do I sense the need for a sudo-tutorial? :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Apr 3 20:55:23 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:55:23 -0500 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (updated links) In-Reply-To: <1112560730.5575.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050403131202.376a83c0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112553455.9764.12.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112560730.5575.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050403155523.05863f55.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > It's really a workaround for the fact that sudo isn't configured by > > default. I didn't think that I could safely use sudo in the example > > commands, since even if the Hardening Guide was up and could be linked > > to, there's no guarantee that the user/admin would have successfully > > gone through the setup beforehand. > > I like the idea of using sudo as well, but Stuart's obviously right in > the more global sense of not making assumptions when you're writing a > doc. But... do I sense the need for a sudo-tutorial? :-) Ahem. Since the postulated reader has the root password anyway (or "su -c" ain't gonna work anyway) then why not a single paragraph about adding an entry to "/etc/sudoers"? That done, all that off-putting, error-prone "su -c 'quote this junk'" disappears. You may want to add an admonition to clean up after ones self... Cheers (I withdraw my previous mea culpa about 1952.) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Apr 3 21:28:55 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 22:28:55 +0100 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (updated links) In-Reply-To: <20050403155523.05863f55.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050403131202.376a83c0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112553455.9764.12.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112560730.5575.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050403155523.05863f55.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1112563736.9764.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 15:55 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > > It's really a workaround for the fact that sudo isn't configured by > > > default. I didn't think that I could safely use sudo in the example > > > commands, since even if the Hardening Guide was up and could be linked > > > to, there's no guarantee that the user/admin would have successfully > > > gone through the setup beforehand. > > > > I like the idea of using sudo as well, but Stuart's obviously right in > > the more global sense of not making assumptions when you're writing a > > doc. But... do I sense the need for a sudo-tutorial? :-) > > Ahem. Since the postulated reader has the root password anyway (or > "su -c" ain't gonna work anyway) then why not a single paragraph > about adding an entry to "/etc/sudoers"? That done, all that > off-putting, error-prone "su -c 'quote this junk'" disappears. > > You may want to add an admonition to clean up after ones self... > Hmm. I'd like to be able to promote sudo (or at least handle root commands nicely), and it definitely doesn't take much text to explain the basic setup: http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/s1-chapter3-sudo.html If all example commands use sudo I guess it means either having a boiler-plate bit of text for all tutorials that use CLI (to keep consistency), or having a standard little article that we could link to. It's almost the sort of thing you might stick in a FAQ, or some other high-profile central document. Could the Release Notes perhaps be stretched with a "recommended post-installation configuration" section, or similar ? From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 21:59:06 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:59:06 -0400 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (updated links) In-Reply-To: <1112563736.9764.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050403131202.376a83c0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112553455.9764.12.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112560730.5575.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050403155523.05863f55.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112563736.9764.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <1112565546.5575.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 22:28 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 15:55 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > > > > It's really a workaround for the fact that sudo isn't configured by > > > > default. I didn't think that I could safely use sudo in the example > > > > commands, since even if the Hardening Guide was up and could be linked > > > > to, there's no guarantee that the user/admin would have successfully > > > > gone through the setup beforehand. > > > > > > I like the idea of using sudo as well, but Stuart's obviously right in > > > the more global sense of not making assumptions when you're writing a > > > doc. But... do I sense the need for a sudo-tutorial? :-) > > > > Ahem. Since the postulated reader has the root password anyway (or > > "su -c" ain't gonna work anyway) then why not a single paragraph > > about adding an entry to "/etc/sudoers"? That done, all that > > off-putting, error-prone "su -c 'quote this junk'" disappears. > > > > You may want to add an admonition to clean up after ones self... > > Hmm. I'd like to be able to promote sudo (or at least handle root > commands nicely), and it definitely doesn't take much text to explain > the basic setup: > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/s1-chapter3-sudo.html > > If all example commands use sudo I guess it means either having a > boiler-plate bit of text for all tutorials that use CLI (to keep > consistency), or having a standard little article that we could link to. I would like to avoid any use of boilerplates, since they add to the maintenance load for any given set of documents. That's why I mentioned a "sudo-tutorial." Said tutorial does not need to be a long expository document covering all sudo options. It merely needs to cover enough to make any references to it useful. Then everyone can link to it and maintenance is constrained to a single point for the sudo issue. **Side note to Charles: As far as "system hardening" goes, adding an /etc/sudoers definition such as the one shown in the link above is probably not a great idea. Is it truly "hardening" a system to provide a backdoor to the root account? I would leave out the part about NOPASSWD for purposes of your guide. > It's almost the sort of thing you might stick in a FAQ, or some other > high-profile central document. Like a sudo-tutorial? ;-) > Could the Release Notes perhaps be > stretched with a "recommended post-installation configuration" section, > or similar ? Hmm... There are just as many people for whom any use of sudo is ill- advised, as those for whom it may be a godsend. Therefore I would not think the Release Notes is a good place for this. The Release Notes generally answer the question, "What is this?", "Is there anything I need to know before I install it?" and "How has it changed from the last release(s)?" All right, I'll yield.... -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tuxxer at cox.net Sun Apr 3 23:18:23 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 16:18:23 -0700 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (updated links) In-Reply-To: <1112565546.5575.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050403131202.376a83c0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112553455.9764.12.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112560730.5575.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050403155523.05863f55.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112563736.9764.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112565546.5575.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112570303.5647.1.camel@bach> On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 17:59 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: [ big snip ] > **Side note to Charles: As far as "system hardening" goes, adding > an /etc/sudoers definition such as the one shown in the link above is > probably not a great idea. Is it truly "hardening" a system to provide > a backdoor to the root account? I would leave out the part about > NOPASSWD for purposes of your guide. Noted. I think I stuck this in here mainly as a placeholder, and meant to get back to it. I'll add it to the "FIX ME" list. Thanks for pointing it out. -Charlie -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Apr 3 23:19:53 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 00:19:53 +0100 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (updated links) In-Reply-To: <1112565546.5575.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050403131202.376a83c0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112553455.9764.12.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112560730.5575.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050403155523.05863f55.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112563736.9764.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112565546.5575.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112570393.9764.98.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 17:59 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Hmm... There are just as many people for whom any use of sudo is ill- > advised, as those for whom it may be a godsend. Therefore I would not > think the Release Notes is a good place for this. The Release Notes > generally answer the question, "What is this?", "Is there anything I > need to know before I install it?" and "How has it changed from the last > release(s)?" > > All right, I'll yield.... I'll happily say +1 to a tutorial for sudo, anyhow - it doesn't seem to get as much press as it should. From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Mon Apr 4 01:15:55 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:15:55 -0500 Subject: Request for review - update/software management tutorial (updated links) In-Reply-To: <1112570393.9764.98.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112345658.5284.33.camel@bach> <1112360940.4878.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112363901.22193.230888836@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112365117.4878.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112533996.8088.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112538513.20068.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112547051.11527.230999257@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050403131202.376a83c0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112553455.9764.12.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112560730.5575.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050403155523.05863f55.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112563736.9764.49.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1112565546.5575.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112570393.9764.98.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <20050403201555.2c8df197.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Stuart Ellis , spake thus: > I'll happily say +1 to a tutorial for sudo, anyhow - it doesn't seem to > get as much press as it should. OK, I've gotten a mini-howto for sudo together. As soon as I get my CLA paperwork through, I'll share it. It's very rough, I don't like it, but it's a beginning. Gosh, how did that attachment get there? Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sudo-tutorial-en.xml Type: text/xml Size: 12772 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Mon Apr 4 07:55:16 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050404075516.50536.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > Rahul, from what source are you deriving this? > seems to be possible in kickstart http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/sysadmin-guide/s1-redhat-config-kickstart-firewall.html but not during installation or using the firewall configuration utility Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Mon Apr 4 09:01:58 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:31:58 +0530 Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: <1112363331.4878.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <424D1F2D.6030906@hclcomnet.co.in> <424D4A38.4080307@hclcomnet.c o.in> <1112363331.4878.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42510286.9010008@hclcomnet.co.in> Hi list, Paul W. Frields wrote: >On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 18:48 +0530, gaurav wrote: > > >>Hi list, >>this is the first time I have submitted a Tutorial (intact somebody on >>on dev list suggested I should post it docs list) >>as I am not aware procedure or approval cycle pl guide me in this case >> >> > >In particular, you can read: > http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ > > according to this Doc Quick start ( and help from Paul and Rahul :-)) I converted my tutorial to DocBook format and opened a bug report in bugzilla and attached the tutorial (http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=fedora-docs-writing) . Do i have check this tutorial into CVS and run a make command or something ?or editor will do it ? or I simply wait now for review process ? I hope I am going ok ... pl correct me If I am wrong Regards, gaurav -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: oracle9ionfedoracore3.xml Type: text/xml Size: 16032 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Mon Apr 4 09:06:05 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 02:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: <42510286.9010008@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <20050404090605.7814.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > (http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=fedora-docs-writing) > . > > Do i have check this tutorial into CVS and run a > make command or > something ?or editor will do it ? or I simply wait > now for review > process ? > > I hope I am going ok ... pl correct me If I am wrong > the general trend is to supply both the html and docbook xml documents as online links and revise your documents based on peer feedback here before submitting to the document to bugzilla. If you are interested in feedback (you should be :-) then this process might be a good idea Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 12:31:37 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 08:31:37 -0400 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <20050404075516.50536.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050404075516.50536.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112617897.4996.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 00:55 -0700, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Rahul, from what source are you deriving this? > > seems to be possible in kickstart > > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/sysadmin-guide/s1-redhat-config-kickstart-firewall.html > > but not during installation or using the firewall > configuration utility Check out /usr/share/system-config-kickstart/firewall.py for the scoop on this. Ranges will work in s-c-kickstart because the Python script takes the user's entry as a verbatim string and just passes it into the configuration file. That's probably a moot point, since the page in Charles' tutorial originally under discussion concerned only system- config-securitylevel, which doesn't work the same way. Interesting stuff! (And it makes me want to get more into Python, which I keep meaning to do, if only I could get the spare time.) Charles, I guess you're off the hook for that one, but you may want to check the Rawhide version or wait for FC4 to see if there's a change. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 12:48:33 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 08:48:33 -0400 Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: <20050404090605.7814.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050404090605.7814.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112618913.4996.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 02:06 -0700, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > (http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=fedora-docs-writing) > > . > > > > Do i have check this tutorial into CVS and run a > > make command or > > something ?or editor will do it ? or I simply wait > > now for review > > process ? > > > > I hope I am going ok ... pl correct me If I am wrong > > > > the general trend is to supply both the html and > docbook xml documents as online links and revise your > documents based on peer feedback here before > submitting to the document to bugzilla. If you are > interested in feedback (you should be :-) then this > process might be a good idea Good point, Rahul. A couple of issues for different persons follow. Hopefully this doesn't come off as too didactic. * Karsten, What Rahul suggests is indeed how many people have solicited peer input, by using fedora-docs-list. Charles' hardening guide comes to mind as well. Do you think this process merits inclusion in the Quick Start Guide? I suppose it's possible someone could show up with a document that requires no peer review on this list, but how often will that happen? (And who in this environment is ever opposed to peer review, anyway?) * Gaurav, Please do a self-introduction to this list, as described in: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SelfIntroduction I am going to take a SWAG that English is a second language for you. I am guessing this only based on a couple syntactical clues and your email address, so if I'm wrong, please accept my apologies. :-) We are happy to have any contributions, whether from native English speakers or otherwise. I think it would be great if all tutorials arrived at the project in complete sentences and following good compositional guidelines, but this is not always possible. However, the list has discussed before the problem of documents "thrown over the wall," so to speak. We generally would ask for documents to reach a certain, albeit ill-defined, state before the FDP takes them on officially. (See, for example, the self- introduction process described above.) Some documents, although full of useful information, can benefit from additional work by one or more writers before moving to the editorial stage. I think this tutorial is one of them. The job of "fleshing out" a document into well-formed narrative language falls pretty squarely with the writer(s), rather than the editor(s). I would suggest that, before this tutorial gets to "official" editorial, you ask the list for volunteers to help spruce up the narrative. This is a great way for new writers to participate in a group project, hopefully with one or more experienced writers. For experienced writers, you get the benefit of passing on your knowledge while guiding new writers. New writers can learn the ropes and earn some stripes. Keep in mind it can eventually be a glamorous job -- as glamorous as Fedora docs work gets! -- since someone who contributes significantly to that effort should be able to take an additional author credit. ("Your name in lights! [Chicks|Guys] dig it!") If you're happy with that idea, then take this suggestion and run with it. I will leave it up to you to poll the list for assistance, it's your baby! Good luck and best wishes. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Mon Apr 4 12:58:20 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 05:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050404125820.29974.qmail@web8510.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > What Rahul suggests is indeed how many people have > solicited peer input, > by using fedora-docs-list. which is how LDP peer reviews are done. I have submitted a outline to this list before on that http://www.tldp.org/LDP/LDP-Author-Guide/html/process.html It can be effectively adopted by this project too Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates. http://personals.yahoo.com From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Mon Apr 4 14:21:19 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:21:19 -0500 Subject: Self-Introduction Message-ID: <20050404092119.67483848.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Subject 1. Self-Introduction: Tommy Reynolds I have been involved in Fedora Docs for some time now, mostly as a lurker and an "ex cathedra" developer voice. For those of you who have successfully managed to avoid meeting me, I've prepared this SI. Body 1. Full legal name - James T Reynolds 2. City, Country - Decatur, Alabama USA 3. Profession - Oldest Software Guy (OSG) 4. Company - MegaCoder.com 5. Your goals in the Fedora Project * What do you want to write about? I'd prefer to review rather than compose, as a rule. * What other documentation do you want to see published? Something akin to Jon Bentley's "Programming Perls" series. * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? Yeah, I'll do either from time to time. * Anything else special? Perhaps I could help with stylesheets and toolchains. 6. Historical qualifications * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? A few Red Hat Developer courses, such as "Embedded System Engineering", "Application Development and Porting". I've also suckered a magazine editor or so, such as for Telecommunications magazine and Network Today. Lotsa other project documents, even MIL-SPEC stuff. * What level and type of computer skills do you have? 35+ years of rocket science, embedded systems, operating system internals, telecommunications, SCADA and more than 250 UNIX/Linux device drivers. * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc. I teach Linux kernel internal, device driver, and other classes. I don't do GUI's. In Japan, my nickname is NOGUI, which I'm assured does not translate into something hideous. * Why should we trust you? <--- too blunt? Literate software developer, fair keyboardist, but most of all, devilishly handsome. 7. GPG KEYID and fingerprint gpg --fingerprint Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com pub 1024D/44039501 2004-02-11 Tommy Reynolds Key fingerprint = 8615 A915 3DA6 2395 A728 AFBF FF4C 9DAA 4403 9501 sub 1024g/3CEDDD5F 2004-02-11 Cheers! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 4 14:32:48 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 07:32:48 -0700 Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: <1112618913.4996.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050404090605.7814.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112618913.4996.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112625168.2333.23.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 08:48 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > * Karsten, > > What Rahul suggests is indeed how many people have solicited peer input, > by using fedora-docs-list. Charles' hardening guide comes to mind as > well. Do you think this process merits inclusion in the Quick Start > Guide? I suppose it's possible someone could show up with a document > that requires no peer review on this list, but how often will that > happen? (And who in this environment is ever opposed to peer review, > anyway?) Yes, we discussed this idea briefly on the list, but it never made it into the QSG. Bugzilla'd now, I hope to squash all my bugs over the next few days: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=153287 - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 4 14:37:21 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 07:37:21 -0700 Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: <42510286.9010008@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <424D1F2D.6030906@hclcomnet.co.in> <424D4A38.4080307@hclcomnet.c o.in> <1112363331.4878.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42510286.9010008@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <1112625441.2333.28.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 14:31 +0530, gaurav wrote: > according to this Doc Quick start ( and help from Paul and Rahul :-)) I > converted my tutorial to DocBook format and opened a bug report in > bugzilla and attached the tutorial > (http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=fedora-docs-writing) . > > Do i have check this tutorial into CVS and run a make command or > something ?or editor will do it ? or I simply wait now for review > process ? > > I hope I am going ok ... pl correct me If I am wrong You are doing very well, thank you. I apologize for the process not being entirely complete. We haven't had much chance to test out our processes with new writers, so there are some weak spots in it still. The process suggestions that Rahul and Paul are making are good and will help to make your document better. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 4 14:42:50 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 07:42:50 -0700 Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: <20050404125820.29974.qmail@web8510.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050404125820.29974.qmail@web8510.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112625770.2333.34.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 05:58 -0700, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > > > > What Rahul suggests is indeed how many people have > > solicited peer input, > > by using fedora-docs-list. > > which is how LDP peer reviews are done. I have > submitted a outline to this list before on that > > http://www.tldp.org/LDP/LDP-Author-Guide/html/process.html One difference I see is that the peer review is done by an assigned person after sending the doc to submit at en.tldp.org. That peer reviewer sounds like our assigned editor. What we have been practicing with on-list discussions seems different from that process. It's a step _before_ having an editor assigned. For right now, this seems to make sense to help get a document in good shape for editing. I can see that in the future, on-list discussion might be too much for peer reviews. I hope we do get to be that busy. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Mon Apr 4 14:45:24 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050404144524.63355.qmail@web8507.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 05:58 -0700, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > What Rahul suggests is indeed how many people > have > > > solicited peer input, > > > by using fedora-docs-list. > > > > which is how LDP peer reviews are done. I have > > submitted a outline to this list before on that > > > > > http://www.tldp.org/LDP/LDP-Author-Guide/html/process.html > > One difference I see is that the peer review is done > by an assigned > person after sending the doc to submit at en.tldp.org. > That peer reviewer > sounds like our assigned editor. > > What we have been practicing with on-list > discussions seems different > from that process. It's a step _before_ having an > editor assigned. For > right now, this seems to make sense to help get a > document in good shape > for editing. no. peer reviews arent assigned to anyone in LDP . editors are assigned only after peer reviews are done by volunteers in the discussion list. Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Tue Apr 5 05:23:50 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:53:50 +0530 Subject: How to submission In-Reply-To: <20050404144524.63355.qmail@web8507.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050404144524.63355.qmail@web8507.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <425220E6.60508@hclcomnet.co.in> Ra >>>>solicited peer input, >>>>by using fedora-docs-list. >>>> >>>> >>>which is how LDP peer reviews are done. I have >>>submitted a outline to this list before on that >>> >>> >>> >>> >http://www.tldp.org/LDP/LDP-Author-Guide/html/process.html > > >>One difference I see is that the peer review is done >>by an assigned >>person after sending the doc to submit at en.tldp.org. >>That peer reviewer >>sounds like our assigned editor. >> >>What we have been practicing with on-list >>discussions seems different >>from that process. It's a step _before_ having an >>editor assigned. For >>right now, this seems to make sense to help get a >>document in good shape >>for editing. >> >> > > >no. peer reviews arent assigned to anyone in LDP . >editors are assigned only after peer reviews are done >by volunteers in the discussion list. > > > yup actually before we actually submit a document on tldp (on submit at en.tldp.org) any proposals are sent to discuss at en.tldp.org mailing list so that everybody can give their opinion. regards, Gaurav From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Apr 5 09:37:02 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:37:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: List of Table and List of Figures Message-ID: <63034.193.195.148.66.1112693822.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Dear Guys, What would I need to change in the xslt files, so when using the book format, the list of tables and list of figures/examples show on the index.html page? Thanks. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Tue Apr 5 13:03:30 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:03:30 -0500 Subject: List of Table and List of Figures In-Reply-To: <63034.193.195.148.66.1112693822.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <63034.193.195.148.66.1112693822.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <20050405080330.40ddc6ad.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Gavin Henry" , spake thus: > What would I need to change in the xslt files, so when using the book > format, the list of tables and list of figures/examples show on the > index.html page? 1) Read about the "generate.toc" variable at http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/doc/html/generate.toc.html 2) Change the corresponding line in "main-html.xsl" HTH -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Apr 5 14:12:26 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:12:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: List of Table and List of Figures In-Reply-To: <20050405080330.40ddc6ad.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <63034.193.195.148.66.1112693822.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20050405080330.40ddc6ad.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <50053.193.195.148.66.1112710346.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > Uttered "Gavin Henry" , spake thus: > >> What would I need to change in the xslt files, so when using the book >> format, the list of tables and list of figures/examples show on the >> index.html page? > > 1) Read about the "generate.toc" variable at > http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/doc/html/generate.toc.html > > 2) Change the corresponding line in "main-html.xsl" Excellent, thanks. > > HTH > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 5 16:13:03 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:13:03 -0700 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort Message-ID: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> We've been trying to pull together the components to make the release notes an effort of the Fedora community. This means developers collaborating with writers. This will not mean what it has in the past, with developers throwing some bits over the wall for release notes and sometimes reading and commenting on the drafts. When Fedora had someone paid to write relnotes, this worked. If we can't make this work as a community effort with resources from writers _and_ developers, we may not have any release notes. The first pass at an idea is on this page, scroll down to Release Notes Process - Iteration One, April 2005: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs/fRelNotes/RelNotesProcess The basic idea is to break the relnotes down into modules for individual or teams of writers to tackle. Then you would have one or more writers dedicated to a project or subset of Linux, such as kernel, network services, printing, UI/desktop, SELinux, etc. Then it is easier to keep the dedicated writing resource informed throughout the development process. Hopefully this makes it possible for a volunteer writer to actually have a chance to write an accurate relnotes piece in time for test or release. I'd like to keep this part of the discussion f-devel-l, but have Cc:'d f-docs-l so everyone is aware it. Reply-to is set to keep the discussion on f-devel-list. We're also debating the merits of single source in Wiki or DocBook/XML. Advantages of the former are the ease of collaboration and getting new writers able to contribute sooner. The advantages of XML are too numerous to mention, but it does suffer from a longer learning curve. If you have any comments on that, the tool choice discussion is happening on f-docs-l. Regardless, we'll make sure the release notes are in the proper format on the file system for Anaconda to use. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Apr 5 17:36:26 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:36:26 +0100 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200504051836.31506.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Tuesday 05 Apr 2005 17:13, Karsten Wade wrote: > We've been trying to pull together the components to make the release > notes an effort of the Fedora community. This means developers > collaborating with writers. > > This will not mean what it has in the past, with developers throwing > some bits over the wall for release notes and sometimes reading and > commenting on the drafts. When Fedora had someone paid to write > relnotes, this worked. If we can't make this work as a community effort > with resources from writers _and_ developers, we may not have any > release notes. > > The first pass at an idea is on this page, scroll down to Release Notes > Process - Iteration One, April 2005: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs/fRelNotes/RelNotesProcess > > The basic idea is to break the relnotes down into modules for individual > or teams of writers to tackle. Then you would have one or more writers > dedicated to a project or subset of Linux, such as kernel, network > services, printing, UI/desktop, SELinux, etc. Then it is easier to keep > the dedicated writing resource informed throughout the development > process. > > Hopefully this makes it possible for a volunteer writer to actually have > a chance to write an accurate relnotes piece in time for test or > release. > > I'd like to keep this part of the discussion f-devel-l, but have Cc:'d > f-docs-l so everyone is aware it. Reply-to is set to keep the > discussion on f-devel-list. > > We're also debating the merits of single source in Wiki or DocBook/XML. > Advantages of the former are the ease of collaboration and getting new > writers able to contribute sooner. The advantages of XML are too > numerous to mention, but it does suffer from a longer learning curve. > If you have any comments on that, the tool choice discussion is > happening on f-docs-l. Regardless, we'll make sure the release notes > are in the proper format on the file system for Anaconda to use. What format would be good for inexperienced users to submit patches/docs in, that could be parsed by either Perl or Python, which then pumps out Docbook XML? Either via command line or a cgi/mod_perl/mod_python page? -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Tue Apr 5 17:05:58 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:05:58 -0500 Subject: RFC - sudo(8) mini-HOWTO [Bug 153750] Message-ID: <20050405120558.47b346a3.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Earlier on the list we mentioned using sudo(8) in preference to su(1), since sudo(8) doesn't compromise the superuser password. I've dashed off a small tutorial (attached) for your consideration. Cheers! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sudo-tutorial-en.xml Type: text/xml Size: 22046 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Tue Apr 5 19:32:08 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:32:08 -0500 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <200504051836.31506.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504051836.31506.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <20050405143208.65aabc69.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Gavin Henry , spake thus: > What format would be good for inexperienced users to submit patches/docs in, > that could be parsed by either Perl or Python, which then pumps out Docbook > XML? > > Either via command line or a cgi/mod_perl/mod_python page? There is an XML diff(1)-style program here: http://www.logilab.org/projects/xmldiff/ It's GPL'ed; if needed I could maybe RPM it. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 5 20:31:55 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:31:55 -0700 Subject: Fedora Docs Steering Committee [IMPORTANT] Message-ID: <1112733115.2333.194.camel@erato.phig.org> As part of the evolution of the Fedora Project, we have formed a steering committee to oversee documentation activity. This steering committee format is now being used throughout the project, and derives from the meritocracy method running a project. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee In essence, the overall Fedora Steering Committee empowers the Fedora Documentation Steering Committee (FDSC) to run the documentation project according the guidelines of the overall project. The chair of the committee (that's me) is then accountable for the entirety of the documentation process. The chair can delegate any of those tasks, from writing and editing to managing CVS and Web publication. In fact, the structure is such that the chair -must- delegate or drown in the workload. All committee work is done in the open. Read the charter and process docs linked from the Wiki page above for more information. It is a stated goal of Fedora steering committees to be balanced with members of the Fedora community. This translates as, "People who don't work for Red Hat." Yet. :) For this reason, we have formed the first round of the committee with four members of the community-at-large and three of us from Red Hat. The FDSC is: * Gavin Henry * Karsten Wade (chair) * Mark Johnson * Paul Frields * Stuart Ellis * Tammy Fox * Tommy Reynolds If you want all the gory details of what the committee does and how it works, read the charter and process docs. These people were picked for the committee because of merit. In the future, when there is more room on the committee and/or sub-committees are created, we will be looking around for other project members who merit inclusion. One note, regarding CVS access. My understanding is that we are at least a few weeks away from having the externally available login to CVS. In the meantime, the members of the FDSC are submitting their paperwork for gaining CVS access, sponsored by myself. After we get these four new people working in the FDP CVS tree, the committee will discuss how and when to open up for requests for CVS access from the writers and editors on the project. My objective, in chairing the committee and running the project, is to get relevant Fedora documentation written. My emphasis is on quality over quantity. You will see the FDSC active on the list, working out processes, and working within and without process to get stuff done. There are advantages to having a minimal amount of order. Many here would agree with this approach. It is easier to get stuff done. Even grassroots organizing is organized. There are also advantages of process. Without enough good process, the project will not survive. A company can enforce process on their management of a distro, but for a community to buy into the process, it must arise from the community. There will be necessary process created and followed for this project. Thanks for your time, now and in the future, - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 5 20:41:58 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:41:58 -0700 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <20050405143208.65aabc69.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504051836.31506.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> <20050405143208.65aabc69.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1112733719.2333.203.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 14:32 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Gavin Henry , spake thus: > > > What format would be good for inexperienced users to submit patches/docs in, > > that could be parsed by either Perl or Python, which then pumps out Docbook > > XML? > > > > Either via command line or a cgi/mod_perl/mod_python page? > > There is an XML diff(1)-style program here: > > http://www.logilab.org/projects/xmldiff/ > > It's GPL'ed; if needed I could maybe RPM it. We've been discussing this on-and-off for a bit, because we need an XML diffing tool for translation. The translation team uses PO files, and the current tools they use are line dependent. Meaning, if we change anything in the *ML, it issues a need to check for translation, even if the content itself is no different. One other twist in all this. The relnotes HTML is limited in the tags it can use. Ed Bailey had a specific set of DocBook tags he used, that did not include <*list> for example. IIRC, he would line up sets like they were bullets. This is because the HTML parser in Anaconda is extremely primitive. There may be another HTML parser in Anaconda's future, but right now this is our limitation. To check out an HTML file for how Anaconda would view it, do: python /usr/lib/anaconda/htmlbuffer.py /path/to/file.html I asked Jeremy Katz, the Anaconda maintainer, about using plain text. I have to do this for the FC4test2 because there is no time for me to learn the tricks for doing it in DocBook. AIUI so far, I just don't create an HTML version and the distro building tools will only copy over the plain text version. Anaconda will pick that up. It mayn't be pretty, but it'll be present. I'll work this out with release engineering (AKA Elliott). As I work with the Wiki on the monolithic release notes, I can say unequivocally that it is a pain. Perhaps if we had each section with it's own page. But then integration into a single file for /usr/share/doc/fedora-release/ is more of a challenge. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Apr 5 22:21:52 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:21:52 +0100 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <1112733719.2333.203.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504051836.31506.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> <20050405143208.65aabc69.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112733719.2333.203.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1112739712.2403.53.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 13:41 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > As I work with the Wiki on the monolithic release notes, I can say > unequivocally that it is a pain. > > Perhaps if we had each section with it's own page. But then integration > into a single file for /usr/share/doc/fedora-release/ is more of a > challenge. My experience with them is that you pretty much have to submit and do things the way the CMS software wants you to, or give up and find another system (or just go mad). MoinMoin assumes heavily linked meshes of small blocks of content... From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 6 00:49:08 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:49:08 -0700 Subject: [RFC] Legacy documentation Message-ID: <1112748548.14163.5.camel@erato.phig.org> I've been wondering about this for a while, so when Stuart brought up the age of the Keeping Up to Date tutorial: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/updates/ today on #fedora-docs, I figured it was time to open this discussion. I'm hoping you are interested in taking over some documentation. We have a few documents that are FC2 specific and are going to be orphaned when FC2 moves over to the Legacy Project. The Docs Project (FDP) follows the Fedora Core release and maintenance schedule, meaning when a version of Core goes to the Legacy Project, the docs should go with it. I'll list what those docs are (just a few), bring up some ideas about what can be done with them, and finish with a few useful URLs. ## The Docs: We'll have a list that is a bit longer for FC3 when that time comes. Keeping Up to Date (FC2) http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/updates/ We're likely to update this for FC4, if a writer pops up wanting it. Fedora Jargon Buster http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/jargon-buster/ This was written originally under FC1. It may not be out of date, but it hasn't been updated in six months. Package List for Fedora Core 2 http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/package-list/fc2/ I don't know anything about this or its value. Release notes for FC2 http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc2/x86/ http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc2/x86_64/ Not sure that you'd ever want to update them, and we can certainly leave them in place. For relnotes in particular it's a good thing to keep old ones around. Fedora Core 2 SELinux FAQ http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc2/ SELinux had a breakdown in updates to FC2, and this FAQ says at the top to upgrade to FC3. However, if anyone is trying to work with SELinux in FC2, this FAQ might be valuable. ## What to Do? I'm just throwing out a few ideas, which may even be somewhat exclusive of each other. 1. Legacy Docs could be a sub-project of the Docs Project. There is no rule that says what is in our purview. I keep the nose of the project turned in the direction Fedora Core is going, but the rest of the head can be doing other things at the same time. Currently, we don't have enough writers to work on new documents that are needed for FC. I don't know of anyone interested in the Legacy docs. IMO, maintenance of a set of Legacy docs is likely to be easier than a doc that tracks something with an active update schedule in FC. I had this with the SELinux FAQ. It was very active during the early parts of the release, and tapered off as rawhide become more of the next version. This means that one or two people could maintain quite a large set of docs. This could be great experience for someone interested in technical writing, open source projects, or need to support a legacy app. By integrating the efforts, current docs could be written with Legacy needs in mind. Whatever those turn out to be. 2. Legacy Project can form the Legacy Docs as a sub-project. This is more of a throw over the wall scheme. I'd recommend that the FDP remain available to help train on the tools. Since the Legacy Project is going to need to staff the a documentation effort with writers, you might as well keep them close to the rest of the project. 3. Legacy Project could cherry-pick from the versioned docs. The FDP would likely keep the outdated docs available, but mark them clearly as not current. The FDP will help get Legacy writers up to speed, mainly through our standard docs and procedures, then mailing list support where needed. ## URLs FDP page: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ For an overview of the docs process: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ Our Wiki page is still being added to, we'll be adding process documentation through this medium: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Thanks - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Apr 6 05:07:34 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RFC - sudo(8) mini-HOWTO [Bug 153750] In-Reply-To: <20050405120558.47b346a3.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <20050406050734.19182.qmail@web8503.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Earlier on the list we mentioned using sudo(8) in > preference to su(1), since sudo(8) doesn't > compromise the superuser password. I've dashed off > a small tutorial (attached) for your consideration. > can you please provide it as a online link to both the html and docbook versions Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 6 09:14:30 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:14:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Prioritising which document? Message-ID: <65480.193.195.148.66.1112778870.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Dear all, I would like to start the ball rolling on which document we should all work together to get completed in order for the Docs Project to be a winner. In my mind, this would be the Install Guide? What are your thoughts and how far along is this? G. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 6 09:21:41 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:21:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [RFC] Legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <1112748548.14163.5.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112748548.14163.5.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <32946.193.195.148.66.1112779301.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > I've been wondering about this for a while, so when Stuart brought up > the age of the Keeping Up to Date tutorial: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/updates/ > > today on #fedora-docs, I figured it was time to open this discussion. > I'm hoping you are interested in taking over some documentation. > > We have a few documents that are FC2 specific and are going to be > orphaned when FC2 moves over to the Legacy Project. The Docs Project > (FDP) follows the Fedora Core release and maintenance schedule, meaning > when a version of Core goes to the Legacy Project, the docs should go > with it. I'll list what those docs are (just a few), bring up some > ideas about what can be done with them, and finish with a few useful > URLs. > > ## The Docs: > > We'll have a list that is a bit longer for FC3 when that time comes. > > Keeping Up to Date (FC2) > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/updates/ > We're likely to update this for FC4, if a writer pops up wanting it. > > Fedora Jargon Buster > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/jargon-buster/ > > This was written originally under FC1. It may not be out of date, > but it hasn't been updated in six months. Have you asked the author, mainly Dave? > > Package List for Fedora Core 2 > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/package-list/fc2/ > > I don't know anything about this or its value. Do people really want to read this doc or just browse the download folder? > > Release notes for FC2 > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc2/x86/ > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc2/x86_64/ > > Not sure that you'd ever want to update them, and we can certainly > leave them in place. For relnotes in particular it's a good thing to > keep old ones around. Yes, there's no point in updating them or ditching them, as it's not going to be re-released. > Fedora Core 2 SELinux FAQ > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc2/ > > SELinux had a breakdown in updates to FC2, and this FAQ says at the > top to upgrade to FC3. However, if anyone is trying to work with > SELinux in FC2, this FAQ might be valuable. Keep it. We must understand that people like to get a distro working and then not touch it too much if it's a server. I know if I had just smoothed out a FC2 server, and I was implementing SELinux and this doc dissappeared, I would be a bit annoyed. > > ## What to Do? > > I'm just throwing out a few ideas, which may even be somewhat exclusive > of each other. > > 1. Legacy Docs could be a sub-project of the Docs Project. > > There is no rule that says what is in our purview. I keep the nose of > the project turned in the direction Fedora Core is going, but the rest > of the head can be doing other things at the same time. I think they should be maintained if anything is backported, but otherwise just freeze them, unless some bugzilla entries come up. > > Currently, we don't have enough writers to work on new documents that > are needed for FC. I don't know of anyone interested in the Legacy > docs. Neither do I. > IMO, maintenance of a set of Legacy docs is likely to be easier than a > doc that tracks something with an active update schedule in FC. I had > this with the SELinux FAQ. It was very active during the early parts of > the release, and tapered off as rawhide become more of the next version. > > This means that one or two people could maintain quite a large set of > docs. This could be great experience for someone interested in > technical writing, open source projects, or need to support a legacy > app. > > By integrating the efforts, current docs could be written with Legacy > needs in mind. Whatever those turn out to be. Yes, they can be a basis to work on and update them, rather than starting from scratch. > > 2. Legacy Project can form the Legacy Docs as a sub-project. > > This is more of a throw over the wall scheme. I'd recommend that the > FDP remain available to help train on the tools. > > Since the Legacy Project is going to need to staff the a documentation > effort with writers, you might as well keep them close to the rest of > the project. Agreed. > > 3. Legacy Project could cherry-pick from the versioned docs. The FDP > would likely keep the outdated docs available, but mark them clearly as > not current. The FDP will help get Legacy writers up to speed, mainly > through our standard docs and procedures, then mailing list support > where needed. > > > ## URLs > > FDP page: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > > For an overview of the docs process: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ > > Our Wiki page is still being added to, we'll be adding process > documentation through this medium: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > > > Thanks - Karsten No, thank you. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Apr 6 09:27:05 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 02:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RFC] Legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <32946.193.195.148.66.1112779301.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <20050406092705.58861.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > > > Package List for Fedora Core 2 > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/package-list/fc2/ > > > > I don't know anything about this or its value. > > Do people really want to read this doc or just > browse the download folder? > browsing folders is painfully slow over a dial-up. I have frequently used such lists. For fc3 I referred to a article in fedoranews.org instead of using http/ftp Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Apr 6 09:24:43 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 02:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050406092443.46308.qmail@web8508.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Gavin Henry wrote: > Dear all, > > I would like to start the ball rolling on which > document we should all > work together to get completed in order for the Docs > Project to be a > winner. > > In my mind, this would be the Install Guide? > I agree with that however I dont think the current Installation guide is covering FC4 development (Targets FC3 I believe). I am not entirely sure how anaconda has changed with respect to xen and other things. It requires substantial investment in time and effort if we are planning to release the installation guide along with fc4 Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Wed Apr 6 10:34:38 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 11:34:38 +0100 Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: <65480.193.195.148.66.1112778870.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <65480.193.195.148.66.1112778870.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1112783678.17806.231232338@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:14:30 +0100 (BST), "Gavin Henry" said: > Dear all, > > I would like to start the ball rolling on which document we should all > work together to get completed in order for the Docs Project to be a > winner. FWIW, the worst-case scenario (for me) is something like this: 1) Interested Windows person gets a copy of Fedora Core from a magazine cover disc (mainstream IT mags do put FC on their cover discs, here in the UK). 2) They know nothing about Linux, and the magazine or other source gives them no instructions beyond what we supply on the ISOs - just a URL to our main site. 3) They can't install this Linux thing, or even screw up their system with a failed dual-boot setup, decide that the whole thing's overhyped and beyond their abilities, and give up. I guess on that basis the key targets for FC4 would be a) quality Release Notes on the Website and ISOs b) Website generally c) Install Guide. Re: Install Guide: Link (this build is slightly outdated): http://mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-install-guide-en/ The draft Install Guide looks fairly complete because almost all of the pieces are complete, but we are blocking on the extremely labour-intensive elements, e.g. if you look at the Anaconda partitioning screen you'll see buttons for LVM, RAID, multiple partitioning across multiple discs... perhaps several tutorial's worth of stuff. IMHO the current structure makes it hard for us to get to a complete initial release and then develop in stages because it's monolithic. The Enterprise document the ToC is derived from has sibling documents that can be linked to, which helps define it's scope - it doesn't have to cover everything. So I'm inclined to think that the best thing to do is to reshape the content as a more limited Guide, and handle "advanced" topics as tutorials. I'm writing in a hurry, but off the top of my head candidates for topics to be handled as tutorials would then be: - Network Logins - RAID - Disk management (LVM, perhaps adding and cloning discs ?) - Dual-boot (and co-existing with Windows on the same box ?) - Configuring Network Servers - Kickstart -- Stuart Ellis From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 13:04:49 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:04:49 -0400 Subject: [RFC] Legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <32946.193.195.148.66.1112779301.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1112748548.14163.5.camel@erato.phig.org> <32946.193.195.148.66.1112779301.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1112792689.5621.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 10:21 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > > I've been wondering about this for a while, so when Stuart brought up > > the age of the Keeping Up to Date tutorial: > > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/updates/ > > > > today on #fedora-docs, I figured it was time to open this discussion. > > I'm hoping you are interested in taking over some documentation. > > > > We have a few documents that are FC2 specific and are going to be > > orphaned when FC2 moves over to the Legacy Project. The Docs Project > > (FDP) follows the Fedora Core release and maintenance schedule, meaning > > when a version of Core goes to the Legacy Project, the docs should go > > with it. I'll list what those docs are (just a few), bring up some > > ideas about what can be done with them, and finish with a few useful > > URLs. > > > > ## The Docs: > > > > We'll have a list that is a bit longer for FC3 when that time comes. > > > > Keeping Up to Date (FC2) > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/updates/ > > We're likely to update this for FC4, if a writer pops up wanting it. I mentioned before that I really like Stuart's tutorial so far, and having spoken up, I'd be willing to take over editorial duties for it, if there are no objections. > > Fedora Jargon Buster > > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/jargon-buster/ > > > > This was written originally under FC1. It may not be out of date, > > but it hasn't been updated in six months. > > Have you asked the author, mainly Dave? > > > > > Package List for Fedora Core 2 > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/package-list/fc2/ > > > > I don't know anything about this or its value. > > Do people really want to read this doc or just browse the download folder? Rahul made a good point about this being available elsewhere. There's also using "yum list" or "up2date --showall | grep " to provide this function, I believe. [...snip...] > > ## What to Do? > > > > I'm just throwing out a few ideas, which may even be somewhat exclusive > > of each other. > > > > 1. Legacy Docs could be a sub-project of the Docs Project. > > > > There is no rule that says what is in our purview. I keep the nose of > > the project turned in the direction Fedora Core is going, but the rest > > of the head can be doing other things at the same time. > > I think they should be maintained if anything is backported, but otherwise > just freeze them, unless some bugzilla entries come up. I like this idea best. Karsten makes the observation that any maintenance will likely be trivial, therefore not a big drag on our resources -- in fact, much less of a drag, I would think, than teaching FLP members the docs toolset. > > Currently, we don't have enough writers to work on new documents that > > are needed for FC. I don't know of anyone interested in the Legacy > > docs. > > Neither do I. > > > IMO, maintenance of a set of Legacy docs is likely to be easier than a > > doc that tracks something with an active update schedule in FC. I had > > this with the SELinux FAQ. It was very active during the early parts of > > the release, and tapered off as rawhide become more of the next version. > > > > This means that one or two people could maintain quite a large set of > > docs. This could be great experience for someone interested in > > technical writing, open source projects, or need to support a legacy > > app. > > > > By integrating the efforts, current docs could be written with Legacy > > needs in mind. Whatever those turn out to be. > > Yes, they can be a basis to work on and update them, rather than starting > from scratch. Certainly there would be an obsolescence process to work up -- i.e. freezing entities, inserting a caveat in the front matter, etc. We can work on this as time allows. > > 2. Legacy Project can form the Legacy Docs as a sub-project. > > > > This is more of a throw over the wall scheme. I'd recommend that the > > FDP remain available to help train on the tools. > > > > Since the Legacy Project is going to need to staff the a documentation > > effort with writers, you might as well keep them close to the rest of > > the project. > > Agreed. The FLP is having enough trouble simply attracting enough community involvement to keep updates rolling out on a timely basis -- and that is *not* meant as a slam to anyone involved there. They are doing good work, but the project leads have made this observation themselves continually in their list traffic. I think dumping (throwing?) docs work on them is not going to help their cause, and we are already better equipped to handle a small amount of upkeep work, which is much less demanding than writing from scratch. Q.v. above. > > 3. Legacy Project could cherry-pick from the versioned docs. The FDP > > would likely keep the outdated docs available, but mark them clearly as > > not current. The FDP will help get Legacy writers up to speed, mainly > > through our standard docs and procedures, then mailing list support > > where needed. See comments to #1 and #2 above. I think the first option is best. [...snip...] > > Thanks - Karsten > > No, thank you. No no no, thank YOU. :-D (food fight ensues) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 13:08:55 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:08:55 -0400 Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: <1112783678.17806.231232338@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <65480.193.195.148.66.1112778870.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1112783678.17806.231232338@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1112792935.5621.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 11:34 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:14:30 +0100 (BST), "Gavin Henry" > said: > > Dear all, > > > > I would like to start the ball rolling on which document we should all > > work together to get completed in order for the Docs Project to be a > > winner. > > FWIW, the worst-case scenario (for me) is something like this: > > 1) Interested Windows person gets a copy of Fedora Core from a magazine > cover disc (mainstream IT mags do put FC on their cover discs, here in > the UK). > > 2) They know nothing about Linux, and the magazine or other source gives > them no instructions beyond what we supply on the ISOs - just a URL to > our main site. > > 3) They can't install this Linux thing, or even screw up their system > with a failed dual-boot setup, decide that the whole thing's overhyped > and beyond their abilities, and give up. > > I guess on that basis the key targets for FC4 would be a) quality > Release Notes on the Website and ISOs b) Website generally c) Install > Guide. > > > Re: Install Guide: > > Link (this build is slightly outdated): > > http://mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-install-guide-en/ > > The draft Install Guide looks fairly complete because almost all of the > pieces are complete, but we are blocking on the extremely > labour-intensive elements, e.g. if you look at the Anaconda partitioning > screen you'll see buttons for LVM, RAID, multiple partitioning across > multiple discs... perhaps several tutorial's worth of stuff. > > IMHO the current structure makes it hard for us to get to a complete > initial release and then develop in stages because it's monolithic. > The Enterprise document the ToC is derived from has sibling documents > that can be linked to, which helps define it's scope - it doesn't have > to cover everything. > > So I'm inclined to think that the best thing to do is to reshape the > content as a more limited Guide, and handle "advanced" topics as > tutorials. > > I'm writing in a hurry, but off the top of my head candidates for topics > to be handled as tutorials would then be: > > - Network Logins > - RAID > - Disk management (LVM, perhaps adding and cloning discs ?) > - Dual-boot (and co-existing with Windows on the same box ?) > - Configuring Network Servers > - Kickstart These are good points... I have been rewriting the partitioning section to point to TLDP HOWTO documents, for now, when it comes to topics that exceed the scope of a slimmer, simpler Installation Guide. Wherever possible, I point directly into the HOWTO's relevant section, rather than "stranding" the reader at the top of the HOWTO with no guidance on exactly what to read. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Apr 6 13:13:03 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RFC] Legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <1112792689.5621.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050406131303.91762.qmail@web8504.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > > > > > Package List for Fedora Core 2 > > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/package-list/fc2/ > > > > > > I don't know anything about this or its value. > > > > Do people really want to read this doc or just > browse the download folder? > > Rahul made a good point about this being available > elsewhere. There's > also using "yum list" or "up2date --showall | grep > " to > provide this function, I believe. This functionality is only available if the product has already been installed. Users typically use such package lists to actually check whether they favorite software is there before installing it. Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Apr 6 13:15:04 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050406131504.81443.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > These are good points... I have been rewriting the > partitioning section > to point to TLDP HOWTO documents, for now, when it > comes to topics that > exceed the scope of a slimmer, simpler Installation > Guide. Can you provide a list of such howtos you are linking to. Not all of the howtos are of the same quality. Unfortunately some of them can be quite misleading. Better to review this list and get it done right Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates. http://personals.yahoo.com From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 13:59:40 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:59:40 -0400 Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: <20050406131504.81443.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050406131504.81443.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112795980.5621.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 06:15 -0700, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > > These are good points... I have been rewriting the > > partitioning section > > to point to TLDP HOWTO documents, for now, when it > > comes to topics that > > exceed the scope of a slimmer, simpler Installation > > Guide. > > Can you provide a list of such howtos you are linking > to. Not all of the howtos are of the same quality. > Unfortunately some of them can be quite misleading. > Better to review this list and get it done right http://docs.frields.org/ -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 14:32:30 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:32:30 -0400 Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: <20050406092443.46308.qmail@web8508.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050406092443.46308.qmail@web8508.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112797950.5621.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 02:24 -0700, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > --- Gavin Henry wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I would like to start the ball rolling on which > > document we should all > > work together to get completed in order for the Docs > > Project to be a > > winner. > > > > In my mind, this would be the Install Guide? > > > > I agree with that however I dont think the current > Installation guide is covering FC4 development > (Targets FC3 I believe). I am not entirely sure how > anaconda has changed with respect to xen and other > things. It requires substantial investment in time and > effort if we are planning to release the installation > guide along with fc4 This has been discussed previously on the list, and the authors are making every effort to track relevant FC4 development. I don't think anyone's discussed integrating Xen installation into the general installation guide for the first cut. My feeling is that would simply recreate the problem from which we are trying to extricate ourselves now -- in trying to address all the "expert" modes we fail to get a working guide out for the most important target audience, the beginners. Once we have a useful IG out for Fedora, we can work on tutorials that expand on the information therein, as Stuart and others have suggested. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Apr 6 14:41:53 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050406144153.33918.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi I don't think > anyone's discussed integrating Xen installation into > the general > installation guide for the first cut. I would like to clarify that this wasnt my intention either but if xen changes some part of the installation in a more visible way that the end users typically has to deal with then its important to document that changes in a guide targetting fc4 Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates. http://personals.yahoo.com From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 14:55:13 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:55:13 -0400 Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: <20050406144153.33918.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050406144153.33918.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112799313.5621.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 07:41 -0700, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > I don't think > > anyone's discussed integrating Xen installation into > > the general > > installation guide for the first cut. > > I would like to clarify that this wasnt my intention > either but if xen changes some part of the > installation in a more visible way that the end users > typically has to deal with then its important to > document that changes in a guide targetting fc4 Understood. I haven't looked at FC4test* yet, but we had previously discussed on the list whether/when it made sense to start using the test releases for writing. I would be very surprised if Xen had been sucked into anaconda in any meaningful way at this point, but I honestly have no idea 'tall. We certainly want to make the IG accurate in any case. At some point before final release there will be a FC4test* evaluation and comparison to the existing guide to see what needs to change. As an analogy, accelerating from zero to sixty is a lot more difficult than switching lanes once we're moving at speed. Changes to accommodate the FC4 track will be minor compared to just producing the material to begin with. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Wed Apr 6 15:21:49 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 16:21:49 +0100 Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: <1112799313.5621.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050406144153.33918.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112799313.5621.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112800909.13704.231254499@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:55:13 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" said: > I would like to clarify that this wasnt my intention > either but if xen changes some part of the > installation in a more visible way that the end users > typically has to deal with then its important to > document that changes in a guide targetting fc4 > Understood. I haven't looked at FC4test* yet, but we had previously > discussed on the list whether/when it made sense to start using the test > releases for writing. There's surprisingly little visible change to anaconda. The internals have been changed to use glade and so the widgets etc. look different, but I haven't yet seen anything in Test 1 that requires changing the text as is. I agree that Xen coverage is an issue, being a high profile feature for FC4 (even though I did forget to include on the list of tutorial topics on my initial mail...) -- Stuart Ellis From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Apr 6 15:25:32 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050406152532.42327.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > There's surprisingly little visible change to > anaconda. The internals > have been changed to use glade and so the widgets > etc. look different, > but I haven't yet seen anything in Test 1 that > requires changing the > text as is. So the current plan is to have a Installation guide covering the basics and targetting FC4?. Will it be ready before the final FC4 release is made?. If so we might choose to explicitly point to the FC4 version in the release notes Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 15:31:35 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 11:31:35 -0400 Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: <20050406152532.42327.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050406152532.42327.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112801495.8687.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 08:25 -0700, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > There's surprisingly little visible change to > > anaconda. The internals > > have been changed to use glade and so the widgets > > etc. look different, > > but I haven't yet seen anything in Test 1 that > > requires changing the > > text as is. > > So the current plan is to have a Installation guide > covering the basics and targetting FC4?. Will it be > ready before the final FC4 release is made?. If so we > might choose to explicitly point to the FC4 version in > the release notes Um, yes, that's the plan. There's been quite a bit of list traffic about this in the recent past. :-) BTW, why does your MUA keep dropping thread information? Most replies from you seem to begin a new thread (at least in Evo), making conversations hard to grok later on... just wondering. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Wed Apr 6 17:10:32 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:10:32 +0200 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <1112739712.2403.53.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112733719.2333.203.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112739712.2403.53.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <200504061910.32264.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Wednesday 06 April 2005 00:21, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 13:41 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > As I work with the Wiki on the monolithic release notes, I can say > > unequivocally that it is a pain. > > > > Perhaps if we had each section with it's own page. But then integration > > into a single file for /usr/share/doc/fedora-release/ is more of a > > challenge. > > My experience with them is that you pretty much have to submit and do > things the way the CMS software wants you to, or give up and find > another system (or just go mad). MoinMoin assumes heavily linked meshes > of small blocks of content... Wich is not a problem, you can use [[Include(subpage)]] to get single page output. If noone complains I will go ahead and make this change, I could also write a MoinMoin to DocBook (or HTML) conversion. -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Wed Apr 6 18:21:32 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 19:21:32 +0100 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <200504061910.32264.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112733719.2333.203.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112739712.2403.53.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <200504061910.32264.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <1112811693.8180.26.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 19:10 +0200, Ronny Buchmann wrote: > On Wednesday 06 April 2005 00:21, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 13:41 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > As I work with the Wiki on the monolithic release notes, I can say > > > unequivocally that it is a pain. > > > > > > Perhaps if we had each section with it's own page. But then integration > > > into a single file for /usr/share/doc/fedora-release/ is more of a > > > challenge. > > > > My experience with them is that you pretty much have to submit and do > > things the way the CMS software wants you to, or give up and find > > another system (or just go mad). MoinMoin assumes heavily linked meshes > > of small blocks of content... > Wich is not a problem, you can use [[Include(subpage)]] to get single page > output. I see what you mean: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fReleaseNotes_2fCore4Test1?action=raw Neat. > I could also write a > MoinMoin to DocBook (or HTML) conversion. MoinMoin > simple DocBook export would probably be a useful thing for lots of people, not just this project, if you were interested in doing it. On the Fedora Wiki specifically I think that being able to pick up material from, say, the Extras pages, as DocBook for feeding into other documents would be useful even if we don't explicitly use the Wiki for drafting. From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Wed Apr 6 19:03:46 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:03:46 +0200 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <1112811693.8180.26.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504061910.32264.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> <1112811693.8180.26.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <200504062103.46782.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Wednesday 06 April 2005 20:21, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 19:10 +0200, Ronny Buchmann wrote: > > On Wednesday 06 April 2005 00:21, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 13:41 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > As I work with the Wiki on the monolithic release notes, I can say > > > > unequivocally that it is a pain. > > > > > > > > Perhaps if we had each section with it's own page. But then > > > > integration into a single file for /usr/share/doc/fedora-release/ is > > > > more of a challenge. > > > > > > My experience with them is that you pretty much have to submit and do > > > things the way the CMS software wants you to, or give up and find > > > another system (or just go mad). MoinMoin assumes heavily linked > > > meshes of small blocks of content... > > > > Wich is not a problem, you can use [[Include(subpage)]] to get single > > page output. > > I see what you mean: > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fReleaseNotes_2fCore4Test1?ac >tion=raw > > Neat. thanks Reasonable PageNames are key to this. > > > I could also write a > > MoinMoin to DocBook (or HTML) conversion. > > MoinMoin > simple DocBook export would probably be a useful thing for > lots of people, not just this project, if you were interested in doing > it. MoinMoin is on the way to produce xml AFAIK, but that's not in time for FC4. > On the Fedora Wiki specifically I think that being able to pick up > material from, say, the Extras pages, as DocBook for feeding into other > documents would be useful even if we don't explicitly use the Wiki for > drafting. It would be really helpful to have a recent MoinMoin installation on fedoraproject.org, this would reduce some work needed (it produces [almost] valid html) and is IMHO much more easy to use. (see Linuxwiki.org for example) Who maintains fedoraproject.org? -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Apr 6 18:42:24 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:42:24 -0500 Subject: RFC - sudo(8) mini-HOWTO [Bug 153750] In-Reply-To: <20050406050734.19182.qmail@web8503.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050405120558.47b346a3.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <20050406050734.19182.qmail@web8503.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050406134224.011d6cf4.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Rahul Sundaram , spake thus: > can you please provide it as a online link to both the > html and docbook versions http://www.megacoder.com/sudo-tutorial/sudo-tutorial-en/index.html http://www.megacoder.com/sudo-tutorial/sudo-tutorial-en.pdf http://www.megacoder.com/sudo-tutorial/sudo-tutorial-en.xml http://www.megacoder.com/sudo-tutorial/Makefile Happy reviewing. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Wed Apr 6 19:58:44 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:58:44 +0200 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <1112733719.2333.203.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050405143208.65aabc69.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112733719.2333.203.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200504062158.45111.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 22:41, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 14:32 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > Uttered Gavin Henry , spake thus: > > > What format would be good for inexperienced users to submit > > > patches/docs in, that could be parsed by either Perl or Python, which > > > then pumps out Docbook XML? > > > > > > Either via command line or a cgi/mod_perl/mod_python page? > > > > There is an XML diff(1)-style program here: > > > > http://www.logilab.org/projects/xmldiff/ > > > > It's GPL'ed; if needed I could maybe RPM it. > > We've been discussing this on-and-off for a bit, because we need an XML > diffing tool for translation. The translation team uses PO files, and > the current tools they use are line dependent. Meaning, if we change > anything in the *ML, it issues a need to check for translation, even if > the content itself is no different. Translation of docs with po files is a pain in the ass (I speak from experience with anaconda-help). MoinMoin uses character based diff, which is much more helpful. (Editors should use the Bookmark feature in RecentChanges to have a diff from last visited version of pages). > One other twist in all this. The relnotes HTML is limited in the tags > it can use. Ed Bailey had a specific set of DocBook tags he used, that > did not include <*list> for example. IIRC, he would line up sets > like they were bullets. This is because the HTML parser in Anaconda is > extremely primitive. There may be another HTML parser in Anaconda's > future, but right now this is our limitation. So DocBook wouldn't help at all? Putting a bit of work into htmlbuffer might be better usage of resources. Or will anaconda use docbook(xml) directly? > As I work with the Wiki on the monolithic release notes, I can say > unequivocally that it is a pain. > > Perhaps if we had each section with it's own page. But then integration > into a single file for /usr/share/doc/fedora-release/ is more of a > challenge. now have a look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fReleaseNotes_2fCore4Test1 -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From plasticmonkey at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 23:00:59 2005 From: plasticmonkey at gmail.com (Philip Johnson) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:00:59 +0100 Subject: Brutally Honest Self Introduction: Philip Johnson Message-ID: Full legal name: Philip (Matthew) Johnson City, Country: Manchester, United Kingdom Profession or Student status: To be honest, I don't have any sound qualifications as I've never really needed any - I'm a freelance new media designer and developer who tends to use LAMP across the board. In case anyones interested, I've worked for big household names in the UK such as House of Fraser (training presentations and other internal bits 'n' bobs) right down to teensy weeny folk bands such as The Oldham Tinkers (NB: I did /not/ design The Oldham Tinkers website in case anyone goes searching for it : o ) - Me no like myPHPNuke nor the design the website uses; I was employed a couple of times to fix things server and database side). I've also done a fair amount of Mac administration and Linux administration (the latter more, a lot of the time it comes as part of deploying and maintaining sites). The designing and developing I've been doing for about 7 or 8 years now. Company or School I'm not going to be doing any of this Fedora Project work for either, but in case thats not what you meant, as I said before I'm a freelance new media designer and developer. Your goals in the Fedora Project: (in order of priority) * The Hardware Compatibility Database (HCL), along with Doncho Gunchev * Help out with other documentation (release notes etc.) * Spread-the-word * Help out new users when (and if!) I have the time Historical qualifications: What other projects have you worked on in the past? I'm still quite new when it comes to contributing to oss, as I haven't had the time in the past, but heres my extremely short list :) * Mozilla.org Bug Hunting & Triaging * Contributing (a little bit!) to the GNOME mailing list and the discussions that go on there * ^ Same again but for the various Fedora mailing lists * This isn't open source, but I developed applications in flash for the Pogo PDA/Phone which is now unfortunately no longer available (except on ebay! - and then the internet doesn't work) * I've also contributed miniscule amounts of things in various other projects What computer languages and other skills do you know? * I'm attempting to learn python properly (i.e - at the moment my python knowledge is ****) * Of course, HTML, PHP, Flash Actionscript etc. as goes with my job * A bit of XML, I would have included this in the second bullet point but tbh my knowledge of XML isn't that great * Other skills: bits 'n' bobs here there and everywhere, I've dabbled in practically everything (well thats a slight exaggeration, but seen as you lot probably share the same passion for computers as I do I'm sure you know what I mean :-D) Why should we trust you? * You shouldn't ;-) Like I said before I'm fairly new to contributing (I've just observed and posted ideas, nothing else) so you're going to have to give me a trial run and I'll have to bear in mind that you only get once chance at a first impression :-D. Also, you'll find that (well I hope so anyway) I'm generally a very friendly and considerate bloke ;). Hope I've covered everything, Regards, ---- Philip Johnson (plasticmonkey at gmail.com) From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 23:30:49 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 19:30:49 -0400 Subject: Brutally Honest Self Introduction: Philip Johnson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112830250.5480.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 00:00 +0100, Philip Johnson wrote: > Full legal name: > Philip (Matthew) Johnson > > City, Country: > Manchester, United Kingdom [...snip...] Nice to meet you Philip! You will probably also want to create a GPG key pair if you don't have one already to share with us. I suspect you're familiar with that process, but just in case you're not, you can take a look at: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/CreatingKeys Send your public key to one of the well-known public keyservers if you haven't done so, and sign your messages to the list for maximum effect. If you want to know a little more about our process, take a look at: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ If there's a topic you're keen on, especially one which you haven't seen anyone mention on the list or on Bugzilla, feel free to float the idea by the list and/or add a bug against the fedora-docs component. If you take a look at the bugs already in Bugzilla, you'll have a pretty good idea of what's in progress right now. There are -- correct me if I'm wrong, anyone -- three main repositories for what's going on in the Docs Project. The pages at fedora.redhat.com are mostly for people who don't know anything about the project yet. The wiki at fedoraproject.org is oriented toward people *in* the project (meaning not just established writers and editors, but also current or prospective list members). The wiki is a little more "fresh" and will probably carry a few works-in-progress such as the Release Notes. Finally, Bugzilla is where all ongoing tutorials are tracked. Feel free to ask questions here, and welcome! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sopwith at redhat.com Wed Apr 6 23:35:19 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: test2 release notes enshrined, CVS coming "sometime" Message-ID: Thank you to all of you, especially Karsten, for getting the release notes together for FC4test2! We are definitely getting closer to having CVS access for you all. I created a blank repository for Fedora docs just a minute ago. The key issue right now that affects not only you guys but everyone in Fedora is getting the new account system in place so we can get new contributors access faster. One thing I'd like to know now is how you'd like to receive CVS commit mails for the docs repo. These mails are an important part of the open development process because they keep individuals accountable for their changes. :) Is there a mailing list in existence that should receive these future e-mails? Do we need to set up a new one, and if so, who should manage it? Best, -- Elliot From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 23:52:04 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 19:52:04 -0400 Subject: test2 release notes enshrined, CVS coming "sometime" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112831524.5480.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 19:35 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > Thank you to all of you, especially Karsten, for getting the release notes > together for FC4test2! > > We are definitely getting closer to having CVS access for you all. I > created a blank repository for Fedora docs just a minute ago. The key > issue right now that affects not only you guys but everyone in Fedora is > getting the new account system in place so we can get new contributors > access faster. > > One thing I'd like to know now is how you'd like to receive CVS commit > mails for the docs repo. These mails are an important part of the open > development process because they keep individuals accountable for their > changes. :) Is there a mailing list in existence that should receive these > future e-mails? Do we need to set up a new one, and if so, who should > manage it? There's not a current list, but there's a fedora-cvs-commits-list and a fedora-extras-commits-list. There's a bit of hierarchy uncertainty there, but nevertheless I nominate "fedora-docs-commits-list"! I don't know exactly how much work goes into "managing" a commits list. Maybe you can illuminate, since you do this for f-cvs-commits. ;-) If the answer is "not much," then I would think the Steering Committee is the right place to look for one or more guilty parties. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Thu Apr 7 00:10:27 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 01:10:27 +0100 Subject: Streamlined Install Guide Message-ID: <1112832627.10018.8.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> This is a first pass at restructuring the Install Guide. HTML: http://mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-install-guide-en/index.html DocBook: http://mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-install-guide-0.6.0.tar.gz I've put in a chapter for post-installation, with some rough text that I wrote a while ago, basically so that we can direct the user's attention to Websites, particular tutorials or other bits of help and advice once they have completed the installation. From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 7 03:32:26 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:32:26 -0700 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <200504062103.46782.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504061910.32264.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> <1112811693.8180.26.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <200504062103.46782.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <1112844746.9626.125.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 21:03 +0200, Ronny Buchmann wrote: > It would be really helpful to have a recent MoinMoin installation on > fedoraproject.org, this would reduce some work needed (it produces [almost] > valid html) and is IMHO much more easy to use. (see Linuxwiki.org for > example) > > Who maintains fedoraproject.org? Seth Vidal, but don't bug him about it. The problem is the data migration between the versions, making it a not-pain-free upgrade path. Ronny, I really appreciate your effort and ideas. I don't want to discourage your enthusiasm. I'm going to use your Wiki edits from today as an example of the problems I have with using a Wiki for the release notes, really for any large-scale documentation effort. Don't take this as a dismissal of you or negative criticism of the quality of your work. This is just constructive criticism of an otherwise great tool. My first challenge is with version control. Using CVS on the command line, I can get all kinds of useful information to parse with CLI tools. This helps when maintaining a document set. For example, I couldn't tell if you and I stepped on each other today in the Wiki. I think I now understand a little better, having just gone through reverting a change. I find using a GUI for version control to be like using a GUI for file management. Except the Wiki doesn't have the single nice thing about GUI file management, drag-n-drop. The looser methods of accountability that a Wiki provides highlights the reason for having a process and ownership of the components. We really can't have just anyone come in and edit the release notes. The capability of backing out a change does not make up for a lack of control over the content. Hopefully someone notices in time the prankster that changes the command to "rm -rf /" ... My biggest problem with using the Wiki was demonstrated today when you broke the relnotes into a bunch of smaller pages. I had been thinking this would work out OK , but now I see the problems: 1. I have to create a watch for all those pages. To do that, first I have to know they exist. How does one even find out about all the pages easily? I only know they exist because I was going through the RecentChanges trying to figure out why you redirected from FedoraDocs/RelNotes/RelNotesProcess to FedoraDocs/ReleaseNotes/EditingProcess. Compare this to how easy it is to watch check-ins to a module in an SCM such as CVS or SVN, with unified diffs and other useful contextual information. Perhaps it's this easy in the Wiki. It hasn't been so far for me. It seems as if it will get harder as the structure grows and changes. 2. The pages are in a namespace that reflects a) personal taste and b) needs to be manually updated every time we reorganize the release notes. As for a), I gather that what you did today is smarter Wiki naming. That's cool to know how to do, except I don't want to have to name my documentation because of Wiki limitations. Probably where my weird naming scheme came from the in the first place! Which leads to ... About b), I have been trying to figure out a better structure for the namespace of the FDP pages. fedoraproject.org --> FedoraDocs is redundant, and the layout of the rest of the site tends to follow the idea of dropping the Fedora. I _think_ I agree with this. Therefore, DocsProject/Foo and Docs/Foo are the two ways I was thinking we should go. Now, unfortunately, we have a number of pages to deprecate and redirect to a new set of pages. This happens every time we reorganize a doc. I have received several good ideas to tryout for test3 relnotes, which would change the WikiName of more than one of the pages. More pages to manually handle. As the relnotes grow and are made more modular, the maintenance nightmare increases. DocBook does all this kind of stuff much more smoothly, IMHO. One or more directories full of real files that are built a parent document. It also is more powerful, letting you have the full range of CLI tools to manipulate doc sets. This may not matter when you are dealing with a single how-to, but for a bunch of them, it makes a difference. 3. Wiki accountability is harder to maintain. For example, you assumed the relnotes process doc was about editing the relnotes and renamed the page, which in WikiLand deprecates and redirects. In fact, how we manage the editing of the relnotes is just a part of the process doc. I suppose I could go back and create -another- page that is the parent page about relnotes, and etc. Or revert that one. In the meantime, where is the process documentation? And under which of the three competing namespaces should I place this new process doc? The nature of the Wiki is to make one want to get in and fix stuff. Unfortunately, following this philosophy can lead to redoing a lot of work that was not authorized by the project. Is that anti-collaborative of me? No. We discuss on list the changes we want to make to things, and have a process to vet those changes. It's collaborative, it just has more order to it. 4. Wiki editing sucks. I used a real text editor today. This would obviously be easier with smaller pages, but that has its own set of problems, as I've discussed. To keep from having to keep clicking "Preview" while I was working in Emacs, I put in a manual note in the relnotes today saying not to edit while I worked in it offline. How does a Wiki handle collisions and merges? Can it be as smart as a full SCM system? Heck, can we get the changelog to accept more than a few dozen characters? Sometimes I have multiple paragraphs to say about a check-in. With DocBook, I can move sections around at will and rework naming schemes with search and replace in Emacs or with sed. It is very friendly to messing with a set of documents. I've never found a Wiki to be this way. I have serious reservations about having the Wiki be canonical for the release notes. It seems to be *much* easier to author in DocBook and paste a plain text output into a Wiki page each test and release. Because of the differences in the way a Wiki must have names and the way we want to put together DocBook
s, I'm not sure about the future of Wiki2DocBook conversion. This project is regularly criticized for not taking advantage of the ease of publishing with Wikis. I am willing to review that policy, but we have to keep in mind the fact that quality rules over quantity. There are plenty of bad and just-good-enough Linux docs out there. Ours are and will be better. This is because of the quality of our content, tools, and writing processes. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 7 03:38:15 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:38:15 -0700 Subject: bad MUA, no donut (was Re: Prioritising which document?) In-Reply-To: <1112801495.8687.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050406152532.42327.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1112801495.8687.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112845095.9626.127.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 11:31 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > BTW, why does your MUA keep dropping > thread information? Most replies from you seem to begin a new thread > (at least in Evo), making conversations hard to grok later on... just > wondering. I've noticed this with Yahoo mail in general. http://quaid.hates-software.com/ ;-D - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 7 06:15:02 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050407061502.1645.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > Um, yes, that's the plan. There's been quite a bit > of list traffic > about this in the recent past. :-) hmm. I wasnt reading through all of the mails. I will check the archives BTW, why does > your MUA keep dropping > thread information? no idea. now that I have got my official email id I can use that and this problem will go away Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tuxxer at cox.net Thu Apr 7 07:45:49 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 00:45:49 -0700 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <20050404075516.50536.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050404075516.50536.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112859949.5647.8.camel@bach> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 00:55 -0700, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > Rahul, from what source are you deriving this? > > > > > seems to be possible in kickstart > > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/sysadmin-guide/s1-redhat-config-kickstart-firewall.html > > but not during installation or using the firewall > configuration utility If I remember correctly, kickstart is the RH version of Solaris's Jumpstart, which is a way of remotely installing desktops (or servers). So it makes sense that this would be more configurable than a normal desktop system tool. And I'm not really sure how this applies to a system that I (hypothetically) installed using CD's I downloaded and burned. Also, I'm not really sure where you get the idea that this configuration even allows port ranges. It seems that it is basically the same tool as the 'system-config-securitylevel' tool, but designed for creating a config script for a kickstart installation. At any rate, the link you sent (above) doesn't mention being able to configure port ranges. -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 11:57:59 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 07:57:59 -0400 Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: <20050407061502.1645.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050407061502.1645.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112875079.4996.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 23:15 -0700, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Um, yes, that's the plan. > There's been quite a bit > > of list traffic > > about this in the recent past. :-) > > hmm. I wasnt reading through all of the mails. I will > check the archives > > BTW, why does > > your MUA keep dropping > > thread information? > > no idea. now that I have got my official email id I > can use that and this problem will go away Good point! :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Apr 7 15:38:23 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:38:23 -0500 Subject: PDF generation problem solved for me Message-ID: <20050407103823.0e5a81dd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> I've been looking into using Apache FOP to render PDF's, instead of the buggy-as-a-summer-night PassiveTeX. While there is a FOP rewrite under way, the latest public version has a show-stopper bug triggered by DocBook projects larger than something trivial: the dreaded "duplicate id" bug. Riz Virk kindly sent me a patch that appears to eliminate the bug. I tried it out on a ~300 page document I'm writing and it rendered PDF just fine. The patch is licensed under the Apache license, so it should be OK for our use here. The patch is attached. Just download the FOP source from http://government-grants.org/mirrors/apache.org/xml/fop/source/fop-0.20.5-src.tar.gz and then: Replace the file "src/org/apache/fop/datatypes/IDReferences.java" with the attached file. Go back to the top-level FOP directory and type: $ ant You'll need to get "ant" and the "java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-1.4.2.0-11jpp" packages from the "jpackage.org" YUM repository. You'll also need the "gcc-java" RPM. If you don't want to go to this trouble, the 1.5MB "fop.jar" file is at: http://www.megacoder.com/fop/fop.jar This, plus the modified "xmlto" I did earlier may be good enough until the FOP rewrite is complete (no date for that, though). Cheers! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IDReferences.java Type: application/octet-stream Size: 14001 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Thu Apr 7 15:42:46 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:42:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDF generation problem solved for me In-Reply-To: <20050407103823.0e5a81dd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20050407103823.0e5a81dd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <36079.193.195.148.66.1112888566.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > I've been looking into using Apache FOP to render PDF's, instead of the > buggy-as-a-summer-night PassiveTeX. While there is a FOP rewrite under > way, the latest public version has a show-stopper bug triggered by > DocBook projects larger than something trivial: the dreaded "duplicate > id" bug. > > Riz Virk kindly sent me a patch that appears to > eliminate the bug. I tried it out on a ~300 page document I'm writing > and it rendered PDF just fine. The patch is licensed under the Apache > license, so it should be OK for our use here. > > The patch is attached. Superb!!! I can't wait to test it!!! > Just download the FOP source from > http://government-grants.org/mirrors/apache.org/xml/fop/source/fop-0.20.5-src.tar.gz > and then: > > Replace the file "src/org/apache/fop/datatypes/IDReferences.java" with > the attached file. > > Go back to the top-level FOP directory and type: > > $ ant > > You'll need to get "ant" and the "java-1.4.2-gcj-compat-1.4.2.0-11jpp" > packages from the "jpackage.org" YUM repository. You'll also need the > "gcc-java" RPM. > > If you don't want to go to this trouble, the 1.5MB "fop.jar" file is > at: http://www.megacoder.com/fop/fop.jar > > This, plus the modified "xmlto" I did earlier may be good enough > until the FOP rewrite is complete (no date for that, though). > > Cheers! > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 16:12:50 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:12:50 -0400 Subject: PDF generation problem solved for me In-Reply-To: <36079.193.195.148.66.1112888566.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <20050407103823.0e5a81dd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <36079.193.195.148.66.1112888566.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1112890370.4996.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 16:42 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > > > I've been looking into using Apache FOP to render PDF's, instead of the > > buggy-as-a-summer-night PassiveTeX. While there is a FOP rewrite under > > way, the latest public version has a show-stopper bug triggered by > > DocBook projects larger than something trivial: the dreaded "duplicate > > id" bug. > > > > Riz Virk kindly sent me a patch that appears to > > eliminate the bug. I tried it out on a ~300 page document I'm writing > > and it rendered PDF just fine. The patch is licensed under the Apache > > license, so it should be OK for our use here. > > > > The patch is attached. > > Superb!!! I can't wait to test it!!! [...snip...] There was some list traffic about this several times in the not-too- distant past... I can't remember the content of all the discussions, but the idea of whether to use FOP was definitely tossed around. Could anyone with some time and inclination check the archives and try to summarize the discussions here? Or is that unnecessary? If someone were to do that, I would put a page up on the wiki in an agreeable place (and with an agreeable name) just so we have a reference point. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Apr 7 16:41:43 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:41:43 -0500 Subject: PDF generation problem solved for me In-Reply-To: <1112890370.4996.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050407103823.0e5a81dd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <36079.193.195.148.66.1112888566.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1112890370.4996.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050407114143.0d16fbec.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > There was some list traffic about this several times in the not-too- > distant past... I can't remember the content of all the discussions, but > the idea of whether to use FOP was definitely tossed around. Could > anyone with some time and inclination check the archives and try to > summarize the discussions here? Or is that unnecessary? If someone > were to do that, I would put a page up on the wiki in an agreeable place > (and with an agreeable name) just so we have a reference point. The concern was that FOP needed some non-GPL assistance to render some graphic content. Specifically, FOP can render BMP, EPS, GIF, JPEG and TIFF files without any assistance. With JIMI or JAI (which are not GPL'ed), PNG can be rendered. With BATIK, also an Apache product, SVG files can also be rendered. None of the non-free assistant packages are included or distributed with FOP. FOP will notice these add-ons if present, but will work without them, with the only caveat being PNG input will not work. The official details are at http://xml.apache.org/fop/graphics.html, for those who are interested. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From plasticmonkey at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 16:51:12 2005 From: plasticmonkey at gmail.com (Philip Johnson) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:51:12 +0100 Subject: Brutally Honest Self Introduction: Philip Johnson In-Reply-To: <1112830250.5480.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112830250.5480.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <623a0edb48f10fee7ffb4c165d5270db@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 7 Apr 2005, at 00:30, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Send your public key to one of the well-known public keyservers if you > haven't done so, and sign your messages to the list for maximum effect. > If all is well, this message should now be signed :). Sorry, I didn't look (was too lazy to look? :D) at the Self Introduction wiki page before sending so I wasn't aware it was mandatory ;). Also, by looking at the page I noticed a few other things I should have probably filled in. Heres what I aim to do as one of the documentation guys and gals: 1. First of all, docbookalize documents which haven't been already in order to get familiar with docbook itself. 2. Second of all, help out with editing - not full blown writing just yet - I think being an editor would help me see how things work before jumping right in, getting things wrong and annoying those sometimes-irritable ;) programmers :D. Along the line of 'soft skills', I would say I have good people skills and a great deal of patience. Also, some of you will know me already as I'm *trying*/*should be trying harder* to set up a HCL. > If you want to know a little more about our process, take a look at: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ > > If there's a topic you're keen on, especially one which you haven't > seen > anyone mention on the list or on Bugzilla, feel free to float the idea > by the list and/or add a bug against the fedora-docs component. If you > take a look at the bugs already in Bugzilla, you'll have a pretty good > idea of what's in progress right now. Good ol' Karsten has already pointed me in the direction of the documentation pages, but regarding bugzilla, cheers, I will do. > > There are -- correct me if I'm wrong, anyone -- three main repositories > for what's going on in the Docs Project. The pages at > fedora.redhat.com > are mostly for people who don't know anything about the project yet. > The wiki at fedoraproject.org is oriented toward people *in* the > project > (meaning not just established writers and editors, but also current or > prospective list members). The wiki is a little more "fresh" and will > probably carry a few works-in-progress such as the Release Notes. > Finally, Bugzilla is where all ongoing tutorials are tracked. > > Feel free to ask questions here, and welcome! Thanks :) > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > -- - ---- Philip Johnson (plasticmonkey at gmail.com) IRC: philipjohnson or plasticmonkey - ----- GPG fingerprint: 3EC6 C5B6 FCF1 1FB5 C071 FF64 E7A3 1E3A 3A8F 766B - ----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCVWUG56MeOjqPdmsRArwvAJ9EfxlP7woTiQw2wEZ6/DQI7UfcTQCfTOv8 SGdENn6pwDV6rMCdMaaScao= =Rqf5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 16:59:04 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:59:04 -0400 Subject: PDF generation problem solved for me In-Reply-To: <20050407114143.0d16fbec.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20050407103823.0e5a81dd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <36079.193.195.148.66.1112888566.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1112890370.4996.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050407114143.0d16fbec.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1112893144.4996.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 11:41 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > There was some list traffic about this several times in the not-too- > > distant past... I can't remember the content of all the discussions, but > > the idea of whether to use FOP was definitely tossed around. Could > > anyone with some time and inclination check the archives and try to > > summarize the discussions here? Or is that unnecessary? If someone > > were to do that, I would put a page up on the wiki in an agreeable place > > (and with an agreeable name) just so we have a reference point. > > The concern was that FOP needed some non-GPL assistance to render > some graphic content. Specifically, FOP can render BMP, EPS, GIF, > JPEG and TIFF files without any assistance. With JIMI or JAI (which > are not GPL'ed), PNG can be rendered. With BATIK, also an Apache > product, SVG files can also be rendered. > > None of the non-free assistant packages are included or distributed > with FOP. FOP will notice these add-ons if present, but will work > without them, with the only caveat being PNG input will not work. > > The official details are at http://xml.apache.org/fop/graphics.html, > for those who are interested. Thanks for the recall, Tommy... yes, I think we would have definitely had a hurdle there. Since FDP lives under the overarching Fedora Project, we need to abide by the goals and strategies thereof. That includes a 100% free docs path just like the 100% free software path. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Apr 7 17:14:13 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:14:13 -0500 Subject: PDF generation problem solved for me In-Reply-To: <1112893144.4996.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050407103823.0e5a81dd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <36079.193.195.148.66.1112888566.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1112890370.4996.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050407114143.0d16fbec.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112893144.4996.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050407121413.00fe58a8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > Thanks for the recall, Tommy... yes, I think we would have definitely > had a hurdle there. Since FDP lives under the overarching Fedora > Project, we need to abide by the goals and strategies thereof. That > includes a 100% free docs path just like the 100% free software path. Don't think so. We just don't support PNG's and we are OK. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 17:16:50 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:16:50 -0400 Subject: Brutally Honest Self Introduction: Philip Johnson In-Reply-To: <623a0edb48f10fee7ffb4c165d5270db@gmail.com> References: <1112830250.5480.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <623a0edb48f10fee7ffb4c165d5270db@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1112894211.4996.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 17:51 +0100, Philip Johnson wrote: > On 7 Apr 2005, at 00:30, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > Send your public key to one of the well-known public keyservers if you > > haven't done so, and sign your messages to the list for maximum effect. > > If all is well, this message should now be signed :). Sorry, I didn't > look (was too lazy to look? :D) at the Self Introduction wiki page > before sending so I wasn't aware it was mandatory ;). Also, by looking > at the page I noticed a few other things I should have probably filled > in. > > Heres what I aim to do as one of the documentation guys and gals: > 1. First of all, docbookalize documents which haven't been already in > order to get familiar with docbook itself. DocBookalizing (dig that crazy verb!) is definitely appreciated, since this seems to be perceived as a major barrier to entry for some would-be participants. I say perceived because, as someone who knew NO DocBook, and didn't even really use Emacs before I started here, I can tell you it's definitely more perception than reality. > 2. Second of all, help out with editing - not full blown writing just > yet - I think being an editor would help me see how things work before > jumping right in, getting things wrong and annoying those > sometimes-irritable ;) programmers :D. We are in desperate need of writers right now, with quite a few editors having signed up already, but *any* help is good help. Even finding extra people to take existing documents and rewrite them with better attention to grammar, usage, and style would be a major help. As you read the actual files, you'll get very familiar with the DocBook basics quickly. You don't have to let learning the editing process block the writing process. Here's what I did: I found a subject which interested me and would be useful for novice to intermediate administrators (setting up a local Fedora mirror for use by LAN users). I started by writing an outline, then wrote a first draft from that. I made a first attempt at DocBook tagging by reading someone else's XML code, trying to imitate as best I could. Karsten agreed to edit it for me, so I sent the somewhat spotty results to him. Instead of rewriting my whole document, which was a waste of his time, and which wouldn't teach me anything in the long run, Karsten rewrote a section of it and tagged it correctly. He then sent me the results, with instructions to make the rest of it consistent with what he'd done. (He was a lot nicer about it than that, of course, which was pretty commendable, given how much work he put into the process.) The next draft was, I thought, quite a bit better, and the editorial process after that point went faster since there wasn't as much to correct. > Along the line of 'soft skills', I would say I have good people skills > and a great deal of patience. Very commendable and helpful for any collaborative project! [...snip...] The most helpful advice I think that *I* could give you (as opposed to other more experienced writers/editors) would be to pick something small and chewable to learn with. That's not to say you shouldn't work on an HCL. I'm only saying that from the standpoint of learning the tools and process, a small tutorial will serve you better. You can continue working on the substantial part of the HCL at the same time if you like without the learning process unduly hindering those efforts. Once you're comfortable with the writing style and DocBook tagging, converting the HCL material will only get easier. After I did the mirror tutorial, I actually took a bunch of content, a book in the public domain, albeit a slim one, and converted it into DocBook with great results. If I had started with the book, I think I would have lost steam very quickly because it was such a big project. Just my $0.02. Looking forward to your contributions! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 17:18:19 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:18:19 -0400 Subject: PDF generation problem solved for me In-Reply-To: <20050407121413.00fe58a8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20050407103823.0e5a81dd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <36079.193.195.148.66.1112888566.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1112890370.4996.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050407114143.0d16fbec.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112893144.4996.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050407121413.00fe58a8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1112894299.4996.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 12:14 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > Thanks for the recall, Tommy... yes, I think we would have definitely > > had a hurdle there. Since FDP lives under the overarching Fedora > > Project, we need to abide by the goals and strategies thereof. That > > includes a 100% free docs path just like the 100% free software path. > > Don't think so. We just don't support PNG's and we are OK. Is that a restriction with which we can live? No opinion here. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Thu Apr 7 17:28:41 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 19:28:41 +0200 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <1112844746.9626.125.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504062103.46782.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> <1112844746.9626.125.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200504071928.41202.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Thursday 07 April 2005 05:32, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 21:03 +0200, Ronny Buchmann wrote: > > It would be really helpful to have a recent MoinMoin installation on > > fedoraproject.org, this would reduce some work needed (it produces > > [almost] valid html) and is IMHO much more easy to use. (see > > Linuxwiki.org for example) > > > > Who maintains fedoraproject.org? > > Seth Vidal, but don't bug him about it. The problem is the data > migration between the versions, making it a not-pain-free upgrade path. Actually it's about running nine python scripts on the data and adjusting the config, all in all it takes about half an hour (I've done it for a corporate and a private wiki) > My first challenge is with version control. Using CVS on the command > line, I can get all kinds of useful information to parse with CLI tools. > This helps when maintaining a document set. For example, I couldn't > tell if you and I stepped on each other today in the Wiki. I think I It's actually a bit better with MoinMoin, because auf the automatic page lock (ok, this doesn't help with reorganizing) you can't edit an old version, as with cvs > now understand a little better, having just gone through reverting a > change. I find using a GUI for version control to be like using a GUI > for file management. Except the Wiki doesn't have the single nice thing > about GUI file management, drag-n-drop. MoinMoin 1.3 has at least rename > The looser methods of accountability that a Wiki provides highlights the > reason for having a process and ownership of the components. We really > can't have just anyone come in and edit the release notes. The > capability of backing out a change does not make up for a lack of > control over the content. Hopefully someone notices in time the > prankster that changes the command to "rm -rf /" ... (My) experience shows that the lack of single control is working quite well. > My biggest problem with using the Wiki was demonstrated today when you > broke the relnotes into a bunch of smaller pages. I had been thinking > this would work out OK , but now I see the problems: > > 1. I have to create a watch for all those pages. To do that, first I > have to know they exist. How does one even find out about all the pages > easily? I only know they exist because I was going through the > RecentChanges trying to figure out why you redirected from > FedoraDocs/RelNotes/RelNotesProcess to > FedoraDocs/ReleaseNotes/EditingProcess. reorganizing is not a usual task (you don't remove and add files in cvs without a good reason, too) you can watch "FedoraDocs.*" > Compare this to how easy it is to watch check-ins to a module in an SCM > such as CVS or SVN, with unified diffs and other useful contextual > information. > > Perhaps it's this easy in the Wiki. It hasn't been so far for me. It > seems as if it will get harder as the structure grows and changes. One Wiki per "module" (i.e. docs, extras) would be working better > 2. The pages are in a namespace that reflects a) personal taste and b) > needs to be manually updated every time we reorganize the release notes. > > As for a), I gather that what you did today is smarter Wiki naming. > That's cool to know how to do, except I don't want to have to name my > documentation because of Wiki limitations. Probably where my weird > naming scheme came from the in the first place! Which leads to ... You can have any arbitrary name for pages, but do you choose any arbitrary name for files? There is no wiki limitation here. > About b), I have been trying to figure out a better structure for the > namespace of the FDP pages. fedoraproject.org --> FedoraDocs is > redundant, and the layout of the rest of the site tends to follow the > idea of dropping the Fedora. I _think_ I agree with this. Yes and subpages are not very common in Wikis and should be used with care, pages at the top level are much more usual. > Therefore, DocsProject/Foo and Docs/Foo are the two ways I was thinking > we should go. Now, unfortunately, we have a number of pages to > deprecate and redirect to a new set of pages. Or simply delete (if links were not used externally) > This happens every time we reorganize a doc. I have received several > good ideas to tryout for test3 relnotes, which would change the WikiName > of more than one of the pages. More pages to manually handle. Ok the PageName in MoinMoin is shown in really big letters, but this could be changed easily > DocBook does all this kind of stuff much more smoothly, IMHO. One or > more directories full of real files that are built a parent document. > It also is more powerful, letting you have the full range of CLI tools > to manipulate doc sets. This may not matter when you are dealing with a > single how-to, but for a bunch of them, it makes a difference. > > 3. Wiki accountability is harder to maintain. For example, you assumed > the relnotes process doc was about editing the relnotes and renamed the > page, which in WikiLand deprecates and redirects. You mean I should have read the page before ;) This can be changed to any other better name of course. > In fact, how we manage the editing of the relnotes is just a part of the > process doc. I suppose I could go back and create -another- page that > is the parent page about relnotes, and etc. Or revert that one. In the > meantime, where is the process documentation? And under which of the > three competing namespaces should I place this new process doc? I would argue for something like ReleaseNotesProcess (or maybe FedoraDocs/ReleaseNotesProcess if we keep the top level page) It's just a matter of taste. > The nature of the Wiki is to make one want to get in and fix stuff. > Unfortunately, following this philosophy can lead to redoing a lot of > work that was not authorized by the project. Is that anti-collaborative > of me? No. This could be controled with ACLs. (We already have EditGroup, which are not many people, but a DocsProjectGroup is possible, too) I would not make the restrictions too high. > We discuss on list the changes we want to make to things, and have a > process to vet those changes. It's collaborative, it just has more > order to it. I think people like working with wikis or they don't. I've seen several discussion like this and changing opinions are rare. > 4. Wiki editing sucks. I used a real text editor today. This would > obviously be easier with smaller pages, but that has its own set of > problems, as I've discussed. Yep, this is a real problem > To keep from having to keep clicking "Preview" while I was working in > Emacs, I put in a manual note in the relnotes today saying not to edit > while I worked in it offline. no difference to cvs > How does a Wiki handle collisions and merges? Can it be as smart as a > full SCM system? Heck, can we get the changelog to accept more than a > few dozen characters? Sometimes I have multiple paragraphs to say about > a check-in. depends on the wiki engine > With DocBook, I can move sections around at will and rework naming > schemes with search and replace in Emacs or with sed. It is very > friendly to messing with a set of documents. I've never found a Wiki to > be this way. accessing the page source with a SCM can be done > I have serious reservations about having the Wiki be canonical for the > release notes. It seems to be *much* easier to author in DocBook and > paste a plain text output into a Wiki page each test and release. DocBook is not bad, but typing tags is a pain (learning hundreds of keystrokes or clicking isn't better). > Because of the differences in the way a Wiki must have names and the way > we want to put together DocBook
s, I'm not sure about the > future of Wiki2DocBook conversion. There is no naming problem, really (you don't need CamelCase, any ["arbitrary link whatsoever"] works). > This project is regularly criticized for not taking advantage of the > ease of publishing with Wikis. I am willing to review that policy, but > we have to keep in mind the fact that quality rules over quantity. > There are plenty of bad and just-good-enough Linux docs out there. Ours > are and will be better. This is because of the quality of our content, > tools, and writing processes. I don't think the quality of the content is related to the tools. -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From tfox at redhat.com Thu Apr 7 18:19:02 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:19:02 -0400 Subject: [RFC] Legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <1112748548.14163.5.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112748548.14163.5.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1112897942.5890.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 17:49 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > I've been wondering about this for a while, so when Stuart brought up > the age of the Keeping Up to Date tutorial: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/updates/ > > today on #fedora-docs, I figured it was time to open this discussion. > I'm hoping you are interested in taking over some documentation. > > We have a few documents that are FC2 specific and are going to be > orphaned when FC2 moves over to the Legacy Project. The Docs Project > (FDP) follows the Fedora Core release and maintenance schedule, meaning > when a version of Core goes to the Legacy Project, the docs should go > with it. I'll list what those docs are (just a few), bring up some > ideas about what can be done with them, and finish with a few useful > URLs. > > ## The Docs: > > We'll have a list that is a bit longer for FC3 when that time comes. > > Keeping Up to Date (FC2) > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/updates/ > We're likely to update this for FC4, if a writer pops up wanting it. > > Fedora Jargon Buster > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/jargon-buster/ > > This was written originally under FC1. It may not be out of date, > but it hasn't been updated in six months. > This document isn't version-specific. Since it really just defines common terms, I don't see a reason to ever move it into legacy unless we do a total overhaul at some point. Tammy > Package List for Fedora Core 2 > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/package-list/fc2/ > > I don't know anything about this or its value. > > Release notes for FC2 > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc2/x86/ > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc2/x86_64/ > > Not sure that you'd ever want to update them, and we can certainly > leave them in place. For relnotes in particular it's a good thing to > keep old ones around. > > Fedora Core 2 SELinux FAQ > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-faq-fc2/ > > SELinux had a breakdown in updates to FC2, and this FAQ says at the > top to upgrade to FC3. However, if anyone is trying to work with > SELinux in FC2, this FAQ might be valuable. > > ## What to Do? > > I'm just throwing out a few ideas, which may even be somewhat exclusive > of each other. > > 1. Legacy Docs could be a sub-project of the Docs Project. > > There is no rule that says what is in our purview. I keep the nose of > the project turned in the direction Fedora Core is going, but the rest > of the head can be doing other things at the same time. > > Currently, we don't have enough writers to work on new documents that > are needed for FC. I don't know of anyone interested in the Legacy > docs. > > IMO, maintenance of a set of Legacy docs is likely to be easier than a > doc that tracks something with an active update schedule in FC. I had > this with the SELinux FAQ. It was very active during the early parts of > the release, and tapered off as rawhide become more of the next version. > > This means that one or two people could maintain quite a large set of > docs. This could be great experience for someone interested in > technical writing, open source projects, or need to support a legacy > app. > > By integrating the efforts, current docs could be written with Legacy > needs in mind. Whatever those turn out to be. > > > 2. Legacy Project can form the Legacy Docs as a sub-project. > > This is more of a throw over the wall scheme. I'd recommend that the > FDP remain available to help train on the tools. > > Since the Legacy Project is going to need to staff the a documentation > effort with writers, you might as well keep them close to the rest of > the project. > > > 3. Legacy Project could cherry-pick from the versioned docs. The FDP > would likely keep the outdated docs available, but mark them clearly as > not current. The FDP will help get Legacy writers up to speed, mainly > through our standard docs and procedures, then mailing list support > where needed. > > > ## URLs > > FDP page: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > > For an overview of the docs process: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ > > Our Wiki page is still being added to, we'll be adding process > documentation through this medium: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > > > Thanks - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 18:21:34 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:21:34 -0400 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <200504071928.41202.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504062103.46782.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> <1112844746.9626.125.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504071928.41202.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <1112898094.4996.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> Just a couple observations... On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 19:28 +0200, Ronny Buchmann wrote: [...snip...] > > I have serious reservations about having the Wiki be canonical for the > > release notes. It seems to be *much* easier to author in DocBook and > > paste a plain text output into a Wiki page each test and release. > DocBook is not bad, but typing tags is a pain (learning hundreds of keystrokes > or clicking isn't better). Which is why the Emacs psgml mode is helpful. There are plenty of other Emacs packages, that's just what I use. Only a few keystrokes to remember, and you don't have to remember *any* tags since you can get a list at any time, which is true for many of the other packages. I've found the tagging to be easy enough that I use DocBook for non-FDP stuff (like real, paying work!) nowadays. [...snip...] > > This project is regularly criticized for not taking advantage of the > > ease of publishing with Wikis. I am willing to review that policy, but > > we have to keep in mind the fact that quality rules over quantity. > > There are plenty of bad and just-good-enough Linux docs out there. Ours > > are and will be better. This is because of the quality of our content, > > tools, and writing processes. > I don't think the quality of the content is related to the tools. Correct, but that's not what Karsten said. He said that the three factors of (1) content, (2) tools, and (3) writing processes {will,} make our docs better. Many of the tutorials you can find on the Web at large are poorly marked, narrated, and organized. It makes following them difficult for people who speak the same language as the writer, much less for non-native speakers. Our content, tools, and processes are designed to make reading, understanding, contribution, editing, and translation as easy as possible. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dmalcolm at redhat.com Thu Apr 7 19:49:02 2005 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:49:02 -0400 Subject: PDF generation problem solved for me In-Reply-To: <20050407114143.0d16fbec.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20050407103823.0e5a81dd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <36079.193.195.148.66.1112888566.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1112890370.4996.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050407114143.0d16fbec.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1112903342.10670.4.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 11:41 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > There was some list traffic about this several times in the not-too- > > distant past... I can't remember the content of all the discussions, but > > the idea of whether to use FOP was definitely tossed around. Could > > anyone with some time and inclination check the archives and try to > > summarize the discussions here? Or is that unnecessary? If someone > > were to do that, I would put a page up on the wiki in an agreeable place > > (and with an agreeable name) just so we have a reference point. > > The concern was that FOP needed some non-GPL assistance to render > some graphic content. Specifically, FOP can render BMP, EPS, GIF, > JPEG and TIFF files without any assistance. With JIMI or JAI (which > are not GPL'ed), PNG can be rendered. With BATIK, also an Apache > product, SVG files can also be rendered. > > None of the non-free assistant packages are included or distributed > with FOP. FOP will notice these add-ons if present, but will work > without them, with the only caveat being PNG input will not work. > > The official details are at http://xml.apache.org/fop/graphics.html, > for those who are interested. CC-ing to fedora-devel-java-list Surely there must be a GPL-friendly PNG handler in Java somewhere? How hard would it be to rewrite this part of FOP? What's the status of getting a natively-compiled FOP into Fedora? From ziga.mahkovec at klika.si Thu Apr 7 21:41:21 2005 From: ziga.mahkovec at klika.si (Ziga Mahkovec) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 23:41:21 +0200 Subject: [fedora-java] Re: PDF generation problem solved for me In-Reply-To: <1112905675.14716.59.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> References: <20050407103823.0e5a81dd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <36079.193.195.148.66.1112888566.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1112890370.4996.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050407114143.0d16fbec.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1112903342.10670.4.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1112905675.14716.59.camel@tortoise.toronto.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1112910081.6508.19.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 16:27 -0400, Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: > On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 15:49 -0400, David Malcolm wrote: > > Surely there must be a GPL-friendly PNG handler in Java somewhere? How > > hard would it be to rewrite this part of FOP? What's the status of > > getting a natively-compiled FOP into Fedora? > > There's a gdk-pixbuf-based PNG decoder in libgcj's javax.imageio > implementation. No encoder though. How about the imageio stuff from the java-gui-branch[1]? I've successfully rendered PNG images using the java-gui-20050128-branch, so this should be available in gcc4 as well. > Probably the most efficient way to get a GPL-compatible Java PNG > encoder is to package JMagick. Before libgcj got imageio writing support, I also used PndEncoder[2], which is a pure-java encoder (LGPL). [1] http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/classpath-patches/2005-01/msg00093.html [2] http://catcode.com/pngencoder/ -- Ziga From tuxxer at cox.net Fri Apr 8 01:14:02 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 18:14:02 -0700 Subject: Hardening Guide Review 2 (maybe even 3 or 4 by now ;-) Message-ID: <1112922842.5647.13.camel@bach> I believe that I have gotten most of the "FIX ME's". I know that there are still a couple left, but I will most likely be fixing those tonight or tomorrow, so keep checking back if they aren't fixed by the time you look at it. I think I've also covered all the bases suggested by those that gave feed back. Once I fix the last few things (and any new suggestions that may come up) I'll repost it to the bug, and hopefully move on to formal editing. web: http://members.cox.net/tuxxer XML: http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/fedora-hardening-guide-whole-en.xml -Charlie -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Apr 8 08:02:57 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 18:02:57 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Openoffice update error from latest rawhide...] Message-ID: <1112947377.18379.306.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> This is probably well worhtwhile for the release notes -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Elliot Lee Subject: Re: Openoffice update error from latest rawhide... Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 19:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Size: 3072 URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Fri Apr 8 09:34:13 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:34:13 +0100 Subject: [RFC] Legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <1112748548.14163.5.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112748548.14163.5.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1112952853.17353.231408067@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:49:08 -0700, "Karsten Wade" said: "We have a few documents that are FC2 specific and are going to be orphaned when FC2 moves over to the Legacy Project. The Docs Project (FDP) follows the Fedora Core release and maintenance schedule, meaning when a version of Core goes to the Legacy Project, the docs should go with it." Two questions and one suggestion: - Do people think it's useful/feasible to specify which versions of Fedora a document pertains to within the document, or not ? - What should happen when the version of Fedora Core is no longer supported by Legacy ? At some point copies of a document will be still in circulation with no support at all. - When a document transfers to Legacy status, it might be worth sticking a boiler-plate bit of text at the top, just as we do with draft documentation. Perhaps something like one of these: "LEGACY DOCUMENT This document relates a version of Fedora Core that is no longer supported by the Fedora Project. Changes in later version of Fedora Core may have made the information in this document inaccurate. Please check the Documentation Website at http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/ for a current version before carrying out any of the instructions in this document on your system. This version of the document will not be changed or amended, except to correct errors that may result in data loss or a weakening of system security. If you beleive that you have found such an error, please report it vis Bugzilla in bug ###." "OBSOLETE This document relates a version of Fedora Core that is no longer supported. Changes in later version of Fedora Core may have made the information presented in this document inaccurate. Please check the Documentation Website at http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/ for a current version before carrying out any of the instructions in this document on your system. No further updates or amendments to this version of the document will be made." -- Stuart Ellis From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 12:30:54 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 08:30:54 -0400 Subject: [RFC] Legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <1112952853.17353.231408067@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1112748548.14163.5.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112952853.17353.231408067@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1112963454.5066.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 10:34 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:49:08 -0700, "Karsten Wade" > said: > > "We have a few documents that are FC2 specific and are going to be > orphaned when FC2 moves over to the Legacy Project. The Docs Project > (FDP) follows the Fedora Core release and maintenance schedule, meaning > when a version of Core goes to the Legacy Project, the docs should go > with it." > > Two questions and one suggestion: > > - Do people think it's useful/feasible to specify which versions of > Fedora a document pertains to within the document, or not ? Absolutely! I have used a local entity like &FCLOCALVER; to "fix" the pertinent information. This scheme works even for documents that we will continue to maintain. If different instructions pertain to FC3 than FC4, for example, because of a radical technology change, we would probably want to note that in a document. At some point the author would likely remove the old instructions, but exactly when is a separate discussion. Perhaps the date when the particular version of Core leaves the support schedule entirely -- i.e. when FLP drops it -- would be a good target. > - What should happen when the version of Fedora Core is no longer > supported by Legacy ? At some point copies of a document will be still > in circulation with no support at all. We'd have to decide whether to keep an "obsolete docs" page around, or to simply hit 'em with the Official FDP/Acme Death Ray. I like the former idea. I think all documents should include a statement that the newest official version of a document can be found at the FDP web site. There could be a statement on the FDP web site to the effect that if you don't see your document there, check the "obsolete" page for more information. That page would include information on when or why a document was retired, and possibly advice to readers on what to do next (get a newer FC, check TLDP or other sources, etc.). > - When a document transfers to Legacy status, it might be worth sticking > a boiler-plate bit of text at the top, just as we do with draft > documentation. Perhaps something like one of these: > > > "LEGACY DOCUMENT > > This document relates a version of Fedora Core that is no longer > supported by the Fedora Project. Changes in later version of Fedora > Core may have made the information in this document inaccurate. Please > check the Documentation Website at http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/ for a > current version before carrying out any of the instructions in this > document on your system. > > This version of the document will not be changed or amended, except to > correct errors that may result in data loss or a weakening of system > security. If you beleive that you have found such an error, please > report it vis Bugzilla in bug ###." > > "OBSOLETE > > This document relates a version of Fedora Core that is no longer > supported. Changes in later version of Fedora Core may have made the > information presented in this document inaccurate. Please check the > Documentation Website at http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/ for a current > version before carrying out any of the instructions in this document on > your system. > > No further updates or amendments to this version of the document will be > made." > -- These are great suggestions IMHO, and I'd like to see them in Bugzilla as RFEs. We can hash out the exact text using the bug. The common folder under CVS would be a great place for these! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 8 22:14:45 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:14:45 -0700 Subject: [RFC] making release notes a community effort In-Reply-To: <200504071928.41202.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <1112717584.2333.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504062103.46782.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> <1112844746.9626.125.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504071928.41202.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <1112998485.9626.242.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 19:28 +0200, Ronny Buchmann wrote: > On Thursday 07 April 2005 05:32, Karsten Wade wrote: > > My first challenge is with version control. Using CVS on the command > > line, I can get all kinds of useful information to parse with CLI tools. > > This helps when maintaining a document set. For example, I couldn't > > tell if you and I stepped on each other today in the Wiki. I think I > It's actually a bit better with MoinMoin, because auf the automatic page lock > (ok, this doesn't help with reorganizing) > you can't edit an old version, as with cvs This is probably a personal thing. I feel trapped with the Wiki versioning, I have to check each page manually, etc. With CVS, I can get data on an entire tree and parse it with standard CLI tools. > > The looser methods of accountability that a Wiki provides highlights the > > reason for having a process and ownership of the components. We really > > can't have just anyone come in and edit the release notes. The > > capability of backing out a change does not make up for a lack of > > control over the content. Hopefully someone notices in time the > > prankster that changes the command to "rm -rf /" ... > (My) experience shows that the lack of single control is working quite well. Except where you renamed a document that you hadn't read thoroughly, right? ;-D Okay, okay, I know this can happen in CVS. We could have ACLs to define who gets to edit what, etc. Then we would be duplicating what we have in CVS, and have to do dual maintenance. Were we to abandon DocBook for technical documentation in favor of a Wiki, then it would make sense to build dual authentication infrastructure before a switchover. But we're not. :) > reorganizing is not a usual task (you don't remove and add files in cvs > without a good reason, too) There are two types of reorganization, of content and of files holding content. In DocBook, I don't have to break out s and
s into individual files unless I want to. Then renaming them is easy in CVS. The names of the files has zero impact on the names within the resulting documentation. Therefore, I can restructure the files at-will and not having to change a single external URL reference. Where DocBook _would_ affect external URL references is in the internal structure of the content. Then all I have to do is move sections of text around in some files. If I'm following a standard ID convention, I may not even have to change that many references. How this affects the release notes is that whenever we restructure the relnotes for a new test or release, the resulting Wiki restructuring makes readers learn a whole new way to read the relnotes. It also makes a whole new structure for writers to learn. Any deep-linking would have to change. > > 2. The pages are in a namespace that reflects a) personal taste and b) > > needs to be manually updated every time we reorganize the release notes. > > > > As for a), I gather that what you did today is smarter Wiki naming. > > That's cool to know how to do, except I don't want to have to name my > > documentation because of Wiki limitations. Probably where my weird > > naming scheme came from the in the first place! Which leads to ... > You can have any arbitrary name for pages, but do you choose any arbitrary > name for files? > There is no wiki limitation here. Sorry, I thought you had devised a new naming convention because it was better for the Wiki. Again, changes in the structure of content in plain text or DocBook don't require the files to be renamed, necessarily. > > About b), I have been trying to figure out a better structure for the > > namespace of the FDP pages. fedoraproject.org --> FedoraDocs is > > redundant, and the layout of the rest of the site tends to follow the > > idea of dropping the Fedora. I _think_ I agree with this. > Yes and subpages are not very common in Wikis and should be used with care, > pages at the top level are much more usual. Why? Is this a limitation in Wikis? It's sure a nice way to sort and store information. > > Therefore, DocsProject/Foo and Docs/Foo are the two ways I was thinking > > we should go. Now, unfortunately, we have a number of pages to > > deprecate and redirect to a new set of pages. > Or simply delete (if links were not used externally) If. > > This happens every time we reorganize a doc. I have received several > > good ideas to tryout for test3 relnotes, which would change the WikiName > > of more than one of the pages. More pages to manually handle. > Ok the PageName in MoinMoin is shown in really big letters, but this could be > changed easily Don't understand what you mean here. The reorganization would require the addition or subtraction of words within the title of a particular section. Which would change the WikiName to SomeOtherWikiName. > > DocBook does all this kind of stuff much more smoothly, IMHO. One or > > more directories full of real files that are built a parent document. > > It also is more powerful, letting you have the full range of CLI tools > > to manipulate doc sets. This may not matter when you are dealing with a > > single how-to, but for a bunch of them, it makes a difference. > > > > 3. Wiki accountability is harder to maintain. For example, you assumed > > the relnotes process doc was about editing the relnotes and renamed the > > page, which in WikiLand deprecates and redirects. > You mean I should have read the page before ;) > This can be changed to any other better name of course. Right. But that's not the point. Without setting up a duplicate authentication system that locks down the Wiki in a way its not meant to be used, anyone such as yourself can come along and mess with the documentation. Nice collaboration, but it lowers the reliability for writers and readers. I want to put docs in Wiki that _should_ be put there. They should follow the philosophy of a Wiki, that is, a larger group writing effort. So far, none of our docs fits that model. FedoraNews.org and others are doing great work in this space, I see no need to compete and repeat effort. > > In fact, how we manage the editing of the relnotes is just a part of the > > process doc. I suppose I could go back and create -another- page that > > is the parent page about relnotes, and etc. Or revert that one. In the > > meantime, where is the process documentation? And under which of the > > three competing namespaces should I place this new process doc? > I would argue for something like ReleaseNotesProcess (or maybe > FedoraDocs/ReleaseNotesProcess if we keep the top level page) > It's just a matter of taste. DocsProject/RelNotesProcess also would work. Regardless, it's something we decide first. > > The nature of the Wiki is to make one want to get in and fix stuff. > > Unfortunately, following this philosophy can lead to redoing a lot of > > work that was not authorized by the project. Is that anti-collaborative > > of me? No. > This could be controled with ACLs. (We already have EditGroup, which are not > many people, but a DocsProjectGroup is possible, too) > I would not make the restrictions too high. > > > We discuss on list the changes we want to make to things, and have a > > process to vet those changes. It's collaborative, it just has more > > order to it. > I think people like working with wikis or they don't. I've seen several > discussion like this and changing opinions are rare. I like working with Wikis, where they are appropriate. I worked with them for the relnotes, and don't feel they are appropriate. If I thought developers would actually go in and put in content, that would greatly affect my opinion here. But they most likely will not. Therefore, I want a solution that best supports the writers and editors who will be doing the work. I don't think that of the Wiki, _in_this_case_. I'm interested in Wiki doc work that a) doesn't unnecessarily repeat what others are doing, and b) is appropriate for a Wiki. > > To keep from having to keep clicking "Preview" while I was working in > > Emacs, I put in a manual note in the relnotes today saying not to edit > > while I worked in it offline. > no difference to cvs True. > > How does a Wiki handle collisions and merges? Can it be as smart as a > > full SCM system? Heck, can we get the changelog to accept more than a > > few dozen characters? Sometimes I have multiple paragraphs to say about > > a check-in. > depends on the wiki engine Yeah, this also was a complaint about this implementation, not against Wikis in general. :) > > With DocBook, I can move sections around at will and rework naming > > schemes with search and replace in Emacs or with sed. It is very > > friendly to messing with a set of documents. I've never found a Wiki to > > be this way. > accessing the page source with a SCM can be done OK > > I have serious reservations about having the Wiki be canonical for the > > release notes. It seems to be *much* easier to author in DocBook and > > paste a plain text output into a Wiki page each test and release. > DocBook is not bad, but typing tags is a pain (learning hundreds of keystrokes > or clicking isn't better). This is why we recommend Emacs + PSGML(x). When nXML is more mature, that will great. Mark Johnson's psgmlx adds lots of nice features such as a right-click context menu that lists all the tags that are available in that particular spot in the markup. It is a bigger learning curve. We are doing what we can to make it easier. > > This project is regularly criticized for not taking advantage of the > > ease of publishing with Wikis. I am willing to review that policy, but > > we have to keep in mind the fact that quality rules over quantity. > > There are plenty of bad and just-good-enough Linux docs out there. Ours > > are and will be better. This is because of the quality of our content, > > tools, and writing processes. > I don't think the quality of the content is related to the tools. Paul explained this pretty well. It goes back to why Red Hat has the quality of guides that it has. For the docs of the same quality or better as Fedora Core itself, we need processes, tools, and good content. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie Sat Apr 9 14:39:20 2005 From: tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 14:39:20 +0000 Subject: Prioritising which document? References: <65480.193.195.148.66.1112778870.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1112783678.17806.231232338@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Stuart Ellis wrote: > Re: Install Guide: > > Link (this build is slightly outdated): > > http://mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-install-guide-en/ I'm really impressed with the documentation project, and the apparently boundless energy you people have! I like the installation guide above (or at least the parts of it that have been written), though I would add the slight criticism that it does not tell you what to do if the step described does _not_ work. For example, my laptop (Sony C1VFK Picturebook) will not boot Fedora from the Sony PCMCIA CD drive that came with it. One has to add magic words (linux text ide2=0x360,0x128 pci=off) which are hinted at in the Release Notes. Another computer I have with SCSI disks does not boot from the kernel that comes with Fedora-3, or any of its successors. (I have compiled a kernel with SCSI support in the kernel, but had quite a job getting this into the computer.) So my advice would be to ask people what problems they have had with installation, and see if you can address their problems. perhaps in an FAQ chapter. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Sun Apr 10 08:10:13 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:10:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Competition and Integration Message-ID: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Dear All, How does http://ubuntuguide.org/ stack up against our fedorafaq.org? I think ours is better. Are we planning to freeze a version of fedorafaq.org and make an official one, for every release? I would like that and be happy to be part of the conversion. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 14:48:43 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:48:43 -0400 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1113144523.5331.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 09:10 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > Dear All, > > How does http://ubuntuguide.org/ stack up against our fedorafaq.org? > > I think ours is better. I do too. :-) > Are we planning to freeze a version of fedorafaq.org and make an official > one, for every release? > > I would like that and be happy to be part of the conversion. I don't see how this could be part of an official FDP release. For one thing, it contains material that runs contrary to the letter and spirit of the Fedora mission (100% free software). It also contains material that may put users on shaky legal ground in certain countries. Certainly it could have consequences for the Fedora Project, if it sponsored or distributed that material as an official document. I seem to remember this, or a very similar, topic from last year, before FC2 was released, but I'm not sure where that ended up. I did a search on the archives and didn't find the conversation thread I remember. What I did find was a thread where a couple people agreed to pull in information from other FAQs to raise the signal-to-noise ratio on #fedora, but unfortunately, I don't think they actually completed any of this work. Maybe someone else will have better luck either with a search or with their own memory bank. So in short, freezing fedorafaq.org in toto may not work, but there are certainly alternatives for anyone who wishes to wrangle such a beast. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rpaiz at simpaticus.com Sun Apr 10 18:14:28 2005 From: rpaiz at simpaticus.com (Rodolfo J. Paiz) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:14:28 -0600 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1113156868.8752.31.camel@rodolfo.casa.paiz.org> On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 09:10 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > Are we planning to freeze a version of fedorafaq.org and make an official > one, for every release? > I just joined this list yesterday and may have missed part of this thread, but I do have a question based on your comment above: have you considered the fact that many FAQ's pertaining to each release are actually learned and recorded *after* the release? Cheers, -- Rodolfo J. Paiz From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Apr 11 05:32:06 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:32:06 +1000 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1113197526.4917.195.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 09:10 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > How does http://ubuntuguide.org/ stack up against our fedorafaq.org? Its not ours > I think ours is better. But yes, I do think its good/great > Are we planning to freeze a version of fedorafaq.org and make an > official > one, for every release? We can't. Legal reasons. MP3s bad, ntfs possibly bad Before "officiating" sites, we also definitely need some form of communication. While fedoraforum.org just became the official support forum, it got thru via "approval" thru the FESCO CC'ing Greg & Karsten to make sure said issue is known -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Apr 11 05:56:16 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:26:16 +0530 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1113197526.4917.195.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113197526.4917.195.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <425A1180.2060609@redhat.com> Colin Charles wrote: >On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 09:10 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > >>How does http://ubuntuguide.org/ stack up against our fedorafaq.org? >> >> > >Its not ours > Thats the key point here. I am not sure what we can do about it. Obviously we cant link to the FAQ and call it official for legal reasons but we can maybe pick the legally and idealogically safe questions and put in fedora.redhat.com/docs but that wouldnt serve as the canonical resource that it should be. The other choice would be to totally ignore it and let it continue as it is. any other ideas? regards Rahul From mkearey at redhat.com Mon Apr 11 06:40:07 2005 From: mkearey at redhat.com (Michael Kearey) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 16:40:07 +1000 Subject: Self-Introduction: Michael Kearey Message-ID: <1113201607.4579.43.camel@waterview.brisbane.redhat.com> Full legal name: Michael Thomas Kearey City, Country: Brisbane Australia Profession or Student status: Employed by Red Hat Global Support Services Company or School: Red Hat Your goals in the Fedora Project * What do you want to write about?: I want to write about anything and everything involved with Fedora Core. * What other documentation do you want to see published?: Details of how HAL works, improved and definitive initscripts/fedora scripts documentation. * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy?: I do want to edit for grammar/writing and technical accuracy. * Anything else special?: Am greatly interested in how to make a new user's experience less challenging through the use of good documentation. Historical qualifications * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past?: Have been writing Knowledge Base articles in my roll with Red Hat GSS, and have written howto's and guides in my previous employment. * What level and type of computer skills do you have?: I have experience in the Telecommunications industry ( 14 years :0 ). Have also completed a degree in Information Technology majoring in combined Data Communications/Software Engineering. Have done my own project work in C, C++, PHP, Perl, Java. Worked on iptables/firewall design, scripting, some feeble RPM packaging, PAM custom modules, QoS configuration, and a lot of System Administration. Am also playing with a home lighting automation system, writing a little code to control the system from a Linux machine but that is in early development. * What other skills do you have that might be applicable?: I have skills in sharing knowledge, am able to simplify and clarify complicated technical issues. Being with Red Hat GSS I get to see first hand what people really need to know. Out side of computing, I am currently building a house, so have some skills in managing widely varying projects. Why should we trust you? <--- too blunt?: I have do have a Red Fedora :). I am also all grown up and responsible. * GPG KEYID and fingerprint $ gpg --fingerprint mkearey at redhat.com pub 1024D/69052F83 2005-04-11 Michael T Kearey (Fedora Docs) Key fingerprint = FB5D 45FF C9FB 7950 6741 FE8D 30DD 6DD6 6905 2F83 sub 1024g/15865663 2005-04-11 Cheers, -- Michael Kearey Website: http://apac.redhat.com Red Hat Asia-Pacific Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 11 14:07:28 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:07:28 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Michael Kearey In-Reply-To: <1113201607.4579.43.camel@waterview.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1113201607.4579.43.camel@waterview.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1113228448.9626.276.camel@erato.phig.org> Welcome! Thanks for the bug report against the project's Doc Guide[1]. That doc definitely needs a wee bit of overhaul. For bonus points, if you want to submit a patch, I'm more likely to get the fix in sooner. :) - Karsten [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=154386 On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 16:40 +1000, Michael Kearey wrote: > Full legal name: Michael Thomas Kearey > > > City, Country: Brisbane Australia > > Profession or Student status: Employed by Red Hat Global Support > Services > > > Company or School: Red Hat > > > Your goals in the Fedora Project > > > * What do you want to write about?: I want to write about anything and > everything involved with Fedora Core. > > * What other documentation do you want to see published?: Details of > how HAL works, improved and definitive initscripts/fedora scripts > documentation. > > * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy?: I > do want to edit for grammar/writing and technical accuracy. > > * Anything else special?: Am greatly interested in how to make a new > user's experience less challenging through the use of good > documentation. > > Historical qualifications > > * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past?: Have > been writing Knowledge Base articles in my roll with Red Hat GSS, and > have written howto's and guides in my previous employment. > > * What level and type of computer skills do you have?: I have > experience in the Telecommunications industry ( 14 years :0 ). Have also > completed a degree in Information Technology majoring in combined Data > Communications/Software Engineering. Have done my own project work in C, > C++, PHP, Perl, Java. Worked on iptables/firewall design, scripting, > some feeble RPM packaging, PAM custom modules, QoS configuration, and a > lot of System Administration. Am also playing with a home lighting > automation system, writing a little code to control the system from a > Linux machine but that is in early development. > > * What other skills do you have that might be applicable?: I have > skills in sharing knowledge, am able to simplify and clarify complicated > technical issues. Being with Red Hat GSS I get to see first hand what > people really need to know. Out side of computing, I am currently > building a house, so have some skills in managing widely varying > projects. > > > Why should we trust you? <--- too blunt?: > > I have do have a Red Fedora :). I am also all grown up and responsible. > * > > > > GPG KEYID and fingerprint > > > > $ gpg --fingerprint mkearey at redhat.com > pub 1024D/69052F83 2005-04-11 Michael T Kearey (Fedora Docs) > > Key fingerprint = FB5D 45FF C9FB 7950 6741 FE8D 30DD 6DD6 6905 > 2F83 > sub 1024g/15865663 2005-04-11 > > > > > Cheers, > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 11 14:17:39 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:17:39 -0700 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <425A1180.2060609@redhat.com> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113197526.4917.195.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <425A1180.2060609@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1113229059.9626.285.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 11:26 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Colin Charles wrote: > > >On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 09:10 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > > > > >>How does http://ubuntuguide.org/ stack up against our fedorafaq.org? > >> > >> > > > >Its not ours > > > > Thats the key point here. I am not sure what we can do about it. > Obviously we cant link to the FAQ and call it official for legal reasons > but we can maybe pick the legally and idealogically safe questions and > put in fedora.redhat.com/docs but that wouldnt serve as the canonical > resource that it should be. The other choice would be to totally ignore > it and let it continue as it is. any other ideas? Everyone seems to be correct as to why this FAQ is "officially unofficial." IANAL, TINLA. (I like how those sound when spoken) *If* the content in fedorafaq.org is freely licensed (FDL or CC without or appropriate restrictions), and *If* someone wants to cherry-pick the best (safest) answers to carry over into a sanctioned FAQ, *Then* we would have to attribute within the derived FAQ where it came from. I think that might be OK. We could even work with the fedorafaq.org maintainer to make it easier to do this. We just can't link to their FAQ with problematic content, or include that content within ours. If there is interest in this, I will talk with Red Hat legal to get their go-ahead/caveats. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 11 14:20:11 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:20:11 -0700 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1113156868.8752.31.camel@rodolfo.casa.paiz.org> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113156868.8752.31.camel@rodolfo.casa.paiz.org> Message-ID: <1113229211.9626.289.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 12:14 -0600, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote: > On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 09:10 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > Are we planning to freeze a version of fedorafaq.org and make an official > > one, for every release? > > > > I just joined this list yesterday and may have missed part of this > thread, but I do have a question based on your comment above: have you > considered the fact that many FAQ's pertaining to each release are > actually learned and recorded *after* the release? True. :) 'Course, that's embodied in the name ... you can't frequently ask questions about something until it is available to ask about. Although some will try. However, we aren't currently tracking the release in a very meaningful fashion. Even when we do, we will still release documents when they are ready, so it's no shame if we do a Fedora Core X FAQ even on a rolling-update basis. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 11 14:25:32 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:25:32 -0700 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1113144523.5331.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113144523.5331.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1113229533.9626.294.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 10:48 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I seem to remember this, or a very similar, topic from last year, before > FC2 was released, but I'm not sure where that ended up. I did a search > on the archives and didn't find the conversation thread I remember. > What I did find was a thread where a couple people agreed to pull in > information from other FAQs to raise the signal-to-noise ratio on > #fedora, but unfortunately, I don't think they actually completed any of > this work. Maybe someone else will have better luck either with a > search or with their own memory bank. Are you remembering this? http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2004-August/msg00139.html It is similar. A piece of text like that at the top of an FAQ would help users without putting us at risk. One odd concern, what would we call a derived FAQ? Fedora FAQ is accurate, but I don't want to create competition, per se. Another option is to write a standard blurb about how to search for answers via Google and make sure that it helps steer people toward fedorafaq.org without doing it implicitly. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 11 14:31:48 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:31:48 -0700 Subject: Prioritising which document? In-Reply-To: References: <65480.193.195.148.66.1112778870.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1112783678.17806.231232338@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1113229908.9626.302.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2005-04-09 at 14:39 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote: > I'm really impressed with the documentation project, > and the apparently boundless energy you people have! Thanks. We're really 100,000 monkeys in a room on an island Somewhere Else. You should have seen what happened with Microsoft made the mistake of sending a sales rep around with a bunch of "free" copies of MS Office. We're still finding what we call bits-of-Redmond all over the place. > I like the installation guide above > (or at least the parts of it that have been written), > though I would add the slight criticism > that it does not tell you what to do > if the step described does _not_ work. [snip other relevancies] I agree with how useful this would be. However, we recently decided to focus the IG on the common case where things work as expected. Then we are splitting out detailed technical discussions and problem areas into separate docs. Otherwise, the IG becomes too big to maintain easily by itself. This lets us get the first 60% to 80% of users with a single guide. Then we can focus resources on documenting other aspects of the installation for either those who want to know more or those who have troubles. > So my advice would be to ask people what problems they have had > with installation, and see if you can address their problems. > perhaps in an FAQ chapter. Do you have any ideas how to gather this information? Do you any interest in working on such an FAQ? cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Apr 11 14:30:51 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:30:51 +1000 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <425A1180.2060609@redhat.com> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113197526.4917.195.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <425A1180.2060609@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1113229851.4917.227.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 11:26 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >>How does http://ubuntuguide.org/ stack up against our fedorafaq.org? > >> > >> > > > >Its not ours > > > > Thats the key point here. I am not sure what we can do about it. We can't point to it. We can just suggest to folk in our documentation that googling for certain strings like "Fedora faq" might be helpful (iirc, this is what I got from the lawyers the last time, but check again) > Obviously we cant link to the FAQ and call it official for legal > reasons > but we can maybe pick the legally and idealogically safe questions > and > put in fedora.redhat.com/docs but that wouldnt serve as the canonical > resource that it should be. The other choice would be to totally That would mean getting Max, to agree to his faq becoming merged at the main site, and of less importance Boy were there troubles I remember when trying to sort this out at the OpenOffice.org project (I used to be the unofficial FAQ maintainer too...) There were just sadly about three other competing ideas when the merger came and no one seemed to agree on anything useful it'd seem > ignore > it and let it continue as it is. any other ideas? If Max is happy with what he does, I say lets point to it. We should decentralise as much as possible (we can have a faq on our site, but we should allow for unofficial faqs) Now back to ubuntuguide. The step-by-step guide _really_ does help new users to Fedora (well, Ubuntu in that case). If someone's interested, something like that should happen with the faq BTW, I'm not sure if Max read's this list, but at some stage someone on the Steering Committee (docs) should contact him -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 14:38:35 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:38:35 -0400 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1113229533.9626.294.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113144523.5331.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1113229533.9626.294.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113230315.5250.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 07:25 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 10:48 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > I seem to remember this, or a very similar, topic from last year, before > > FC2 was released, but I'm not sure where that ended up. I did a search > > on the archives and didn't find the conversation thread I remember. > > What I did find was a thread where a couple people agreed to pull in > > information from other FAQs to raise the signal-to-noise ratio on > > #fedora, but unfortunately, I don't think they actually completed any of > > this work. Maybe someone else will have better luck either with a > > search or with their own memory bank. > > Are you remembering this? > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2004-August/msg00139.html > > It is similar. In fact I *hadn't* remembered that part -- thanks for finding this! > A piece of text like that at the top of an FAQ would help users without > putting us at risk. > > One odd concern, what would we call a derived FAQ? Fedora FAQ is > accurate, but I don't want to create competition, per se. > > Another option is to write a standard blurb about how to search for > answers via Google and make sure that it helps steer people toward > fedorafaq.org without doing it implicitly. Since there's input from Mark Webbink, Esq., in the thread you found, perhaps we have the answers we need to move forward with this idea. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 11 14:52:04 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:52:04 -0700 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1113229851.4917.227.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113197526.4917.195.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <425A1180.2060609@redhat.com> <1113229851.4917.227.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1113231124.9626.311.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 00:30 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > That would mean getting Max, to agree to his faq becoming merged at the > main site, and of less importance > > Boy were there troubles I remember when trying to sort this out at the > OpenOffice.org project (I used to be the unofficial FAQ maintainer > too...) There were just sadly about three other competing ideas when the > merger came and no one seemed to agree on anything useful it'd seem This is my biggest personal concern. I don't want our Big Fedora Ax to takeover the good work done by others. I don't see a need to compete in a doc niche unless there is a need. Such as the existing docs are worth replacing. :) > > ignore > > it and let it continue as it is. any other ideas? > > If Max is happy with what he does, I say lets point to it. We should > decentralise as much as possible (we can have a faq on our site, but we > should allow for unofficial faqs) > > Now back to ubuntuguide. The step-by-step guide _really_ does help new > users to Fedora (well, Ubuntu in that case). If someone's interested, > something like that should happen with the faq > > BTW, I'm not sure if Max read's this list, but at some stage someone on > the Steering Committee (docs) should contact him Good idea, we want the connection done properly. However, if there is anyone who wants to be the writer in charge of such a derivation, that would be a Good Think to Know. I don't want to start such discussions without someone committed to doing the work we agree upon. I don't think we can possibly replace fedorafaq.org. I know we don't want to. I would be concerned that our derivation would draw people from fedorafaq.org that need to be there instead. It would be awkward to have a huge "Tip" at the start of our FAQ that then vaguely suggests searching somewhere else for answers if you can't find them here. Especially if our FAQ became highly ranked. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Mon Apr 11 15:02:57 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 16:02:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1113231124.9626.311.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113197526.4917.195.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <425A1180.2060609@redhat.com> <1113229851.4917.227.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1113231124.9626.311.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <63041.193.195.148.66.1113231777.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 00:30 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: >> >> That would mean getting Max, to agree to his faq becoming merged at the >> main site, and of less importance >> >> Boy were there troubles I remember when trying to sort this out at the >> OpenOffice.org project (I used to be the unofficial FAQ maintainer >> too...) There were just sadly about three other competing ideas when the >> merger came and no one seemed to agree on anything useful it'd seem > > This is my biggest personal concern. I don't want our Big Fedora Ax to > takeover the good work done by others. I don't see a need to compete in > a doc niche unless there is a need. Such as the existing docs are worth > replacing. :) > >> > ignore >> > it and let it continue as it is. any other ideas? >> >> If Max is happy with what he does, I say lets point to it. We should >> decentralise as much as possible (we can have a faq on our site, but we >> should allow for unofficial faqs) >> >> Now back to ubuntuguide. The step-by-step guide _really_ does help new >> users to Fedora (well, Ubuntu in that case). If someone's interested, >> something like that should happen with the faq >> >> BTW, I'm not sure if Max read's this list, but at some stage someone on >> the Steering Committee (docs) should contact him > > Good idea, we want the connection done properly. However, if there is > anyone who wants to be the writer in charge of such a derivation, that > would be a Good Think to Know. I don't want to start such discussions > without someone committed to doing the work we agree upon. > > I don't think we can possibly replace fedorafaq.org. I know we don't > want to. I would be concerned that our derivation would draw people > from fedorafaq.org that need to be there instead. It would be awkward > to have a huge "Tip" at the start of our FAQ that then vaguely suggests > searching somewhere else for answers if you can't find them here. > Especially if our FAQ became highly ranked. What about just linking the links that mention mp3's etc. back to fedorafaq.org? As our disclaimer says: "Links to Third Party Sites This website may be linked to other websites which are not under the control of and are not maintained by Red Hat. Red Hat is not responsible for the content of those sites. Red Hat provides these links to you only as a convenience, and the inclusion of any link to such sites does not imply endorsement by Red Hat of those sites. Red Hat reserves the right to terminate any link or linking program at any tme." > > - Karsten > > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 15:25:01 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:25:01 -0400 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <63041.193.195.148.66.1113231777.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113197526.4917.195.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <425A1180.2060609@redhat.com> <1113229851.4917.227.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1113231124.9626.311.camel@erato.phig.org> <63041.193.195.148.66.1113231777.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1113233101.5250.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 16:02 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 00:30 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > >> > >> That would mean getting Max, to agree to his faq becoming merged at the > >> main site, and of less importance > >> > >> Boy were there troubles I remember when trying to sort this out at the > >> OpenOffice.org project (I used to be the unofficial FAQ maintainer > >> too...) There were just sadly about three other competing ideas when the > >> merger came and no one seemed to agree on anything useful it'd seem > > > > This is my biggest personal concern. I don't want our Big Fedora Ax to > > takeover the good work done by others. I don't see a need to compete in > > a doc niche unless there is a need. Such as the existing docs are worth > > replacing. :) > > > >> > ignore > >> > it and let it continue as it is. any other ideas? > >> > >> If Max is happy with what he does, I say lets point to it. We should > >> decentralise as much as possible (we can have a faq on our site, but we > >> should allow for unofficial faqs) > >> > >> Now back to ubuntuguide. The step-by-step guide _really_ does help new > >> users to Fedora (well, Ubuntu in that case). If someone's interested, > >> something like that should happen with the faq > >> > >> BTW, I'm not sure if Max read's this list, but at some stage someone on > >> the Steering Committee (docs) should contact him > > > > Good idea, we want the connection done properly. However, if there is > > anyone who wants to be the writer in charge of such a derivation, that > > would be a Good Think to Know. I don't want to start such discussions > > without someone committed to doing the work we agree upon. > > > > I don't think we can possibly replace fedorafaq.org. I know we don't > > want to. I would be concerned that our derivation would draw people > > from fedorafaq.org that need to be there instead. It would be awkward > > to have a huge "Tip" at the start of our FAQ that then vaguely suggests > > searching somewhere else for answers if you can't find them here. > > Especially if our FAQ became highly ranked. > > What about just linking the links that mention mp3's etc. back to > fedorafaq.org? > > As our disclaimer says: > > "Links to Third Party Sites > > This website may be linked to other websites which are not under the > control of and are not maintained by Red Hat. Red Hat is not responsible > for the content of those sites. Red Hat provides these links to you only > as a convenience, and the inclusion of any link to such sites does not > imply endorsement by Red Hat of those sites. Red Hat reserves the right to > terminate any link or linking program at any tme." See the link to the 2004 thread which Karsten posted previously this morning. Although IANAL, I feel pretty comfortable surmising that's a catchall that covers Red Hat in cases where they're unaware of a linked site's content, or that content changes in an unexpected way, as can happen. Intentionally linking to a site that provides instructions on how to violate licensing requirements is probably another story. I would simply ask, in the interests of sanity, bandwidth, and preserving ourselves from unnecessary frustration, that before anyone posts "why can't we do XXX" messages, please review the previous threads on this topic in the list archives: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/ August 2004 definitely has some content, as Karsten found; if anyone would like to post other references that would be great too. I think Karsten has a good point in that we don't need to gobble up great work other people are doing. There are plenty of niches that are firmly in our territory, and which need doing well. Perhaps clarifying those areas would be a good use of a portion of the FDSCO's time and effort. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Apr 11 16:14:40 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 02:14:40 +1000 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1113231124.9626.311.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113197526.4917.195.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <425A1180.2060609@redhat.com> <1113229851.4917.227.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1113231124.9626.311.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113236081.4917.240.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 07:52 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > That would mean getting Max, to agree to his faq becoming merged at the > > main site, and of less importance > > > > Boy were there troubles I remember when trying to sort this out at the > > OpenOffice.org project (I used to be the unofficial FAQ maintainer > > too...) There were just sadly about three other competing ideas when the > > merger came and no one seemed to agree on anything useful it'd seem > > This is my biggest personal concern. I don't want our Big Fedora Ax to > takeover the good work done by others. I don't see a need to compete in > a doc niche unless there is a need. Such as the existing docs are worth > replacing. :) Personally, I think let's use community resources where possible. FedoraForum is a good example... > > > ignore > > > it and let it continue as it is. any other ideas? > > > > If Max is happy with what he does, I say lets point to it. We should > > decentralise as much as possible (we can have a faq on our site, but we > > should allow for unofficial faqs) > > > > Now back to ubuntuguide. The step-by-step guide _really_ does help new > > users to Fedora (well, Ubuntu in that case). If someone's interested, > > something like that should happen with the faq > > > > BTW, I'm not sure if Max read's this list, but at some stage someone on > > the Steering Committee (docs) should contact him > > Good idea, we want the connection done properly. However, if there is > anyone who wants to be the writer in charge of such a derivation, that > would be a Good Think to Know. I don't want to start such discussions > without someone committed to doing the work we agree upon. Maybe even asking Max to be the maintainer, it might be a lot better IIRC, he has a team already... > I don't think we can possibly replace fedorafaq.org. I know we don't > want to. I would be concerned that our derivation would draw people > from fedorafaq.org that need to be there instead. It would be awkward > to have a huge "Tip" at the start of our FAQ that then vaguely suggests > searching somewhere else for answers if you can't find them here. > Especially if our FAQ became highly ranked. Exactly. We don't want to replace it, because we can't replace it fully. So maybe just a pointer that there are _other community resources_ out there, and mention some possibly useful google searches We let page rank do the rest for us ;-) -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Apr 11 16:17:18 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 02:17:18 +1000 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <63041.193.195.148.66.1113231777.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113197526.4917.195.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <425A1180.2060609@redhat.com> <1113229851.4917.227.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1113231124.9626.311.camel@erato.phig.org> <63041.193.195.148.66.1113231777.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1113236238.4917.244.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 16:02 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > I don't think we can possibly replace fedorafaq.org. I know we > don't > > want to. I would be concerned that our derivation would draw people > > from fedorafaq.org that need to be there instead. It would be > awkward > > to have a huge "Tip" at the start of our FAQ that then vaguely > suggests > > searching somewhere else for answers if you can't find them here. > > Especially if our FAQ became highly ranked. > > What about just linking the links that mention mp3's etc. back to > fedorafaq.org? No. > As our disclaimer says: > > "Links to Third Party Sites > > This website may be linked to other websites which are not under the > control of and are not maintained by Red Hat. Red Hat is not > responsible > for the content of those sites. Red Hat provides these links to you > only > as a convenience, and the inclusion of any link to such sites does not > imply endorsement by Red Hat of those sites. Red Hat reserves the > right to > terminate any link or linking program at any tme." By providing a link, that says "mp3 playback", we're circumventing that thing called the DMCA. Or we're aiding, so to speak We can say "Good Google search terms include: 'fedora +faq', 'fedora forum', etc..." but we can't say, "for mp3 playback, click here (off-site)" Alas IANAL, there's a legal queue Karsten, that you can get Greg to put questions like this on. But AFAIK, this has been answered by legal and the above response is at best, what we can do -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From rpaiz at simpaticus.com Mon Apr 11 17:27:52 2005 From: rpaiz at simpaticus.com (Rodolfo J. Paiz) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:27:52 -0600 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1113229211.9626.289.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113156868.8752.31.camel@rodolfo.casa.paiz.org> <1113229211.9626.289.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113240472.6688.2.camel@rodolfo.gt.factorrent.com> On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 07:20 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Even when we do, we will still release documents when they are ready, so > it's no shame if we do a Fedora Core X FAQ even on a rolling-update > basis. > No shame at all, in fact almost a necessary condition since you (by definition) can't get a lot of the FAQ's until the product is widely available. My comment referred to the previous suggestion to "freeze" a FAQ for that version, and freezing is the part that doesn't sound like such a good idea. Cheers, -- Rodolfo J. Paiz From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 11 17:45:52 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:45:52 -0700 Subject: Competition and Integration In-Reply-To: <1113240472.6688.2.camel@rodolfo.gt.factorrent.com> References: <1487.192.168.100.89.1113120613.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113156868.8752.31.camel@rodolfo.casa.paiz.org> <1113229211.9626.289.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113240472.6688.2.camel@rodolfo.gt.factorrent.com> Message-ID: <1113241552.9626.322.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 11:27 -0600, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote: > On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 07:20 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Even when we do, we will still release documents when they are ready, so > > it's no shame if we do a Fedora Core X FAQ even on a rolling-update > > basis. > > > > No shame at all, in fact almost a necessary condition since you (by > definition) can't get a lot of the FAQ's until the product is widely > available. My comment referred to the previous suggestion to "freeze" a > FAQ for that version, and freezing is the part that doesn't sound like > such a good idea. Ah, yes. Perhaps "take a snapshot" would be a better term. :) Thinking about it further, I realize that where fedorafaq.org can and will maintain an FAQ indefinitely, we may not want to do that. Also, rolling FAQ changes over could be a PITA as the canonical at fedorafaq.org gains more entries and refinements. Otherwise, we're forking and maintaining ourselves. Ouch. Gavin, do you want to contact Max directly? We can let him know that a) we like what they are doing, b) want to support it somehow, but c) can't directly link to him. Since they are using XHTML, it _might_ be easy for us to do rolling updates derived from his source. Let's find out first if that helps. Max or one of his team may also be interested in doing the derivative themselves, essentially publishing in two locations with certain content not in the Fedora version. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 11 18:46:23 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:46:23 -0700 Subject: Streamlined Install Guide In-Reply-To: <1112832627.10018.8.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <1112832627.10018.8.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <1113245183.13288.10.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 01:10 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > This is a first pass at restructuring the Install Guide. > > HTML: > > http://mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-install-guide-en/index.html > > DocBook: > > http://mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-install-guide-0.6.0.tar.gz > > I've put in a chapter for post-installation, with some rough text that I > wrote a while ago, basically so that we can direct the user's attention > to Websites, particular tutorials or other bits of help and advice once > they have completed the installation. Yes, this post-install section is a good place to have links to all the external tutorials that no longer belong in the IG. This is looking really good. I'm getting confident that we will have something relevant and useful for FC4 or thereabouts. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie Tue Apr 12 08:37:10 2005 From: tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:37:10 +0100 Subject: Prioritising which document? References: <65480.193.195.148.66.1112778870.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1112783678.17806.231232338@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1113229908.9626.302.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: Karsten Wade wrote: >> I like the installation guide above >> (or at least the parts of it that have been written), >> though I would add the slight criticism >> that it does not tell you what to do >> if the step described does _not_ work. > I agree with how useful this would be. However, we recently decided to > focus the IG on the common case where things work as expected. Then we > are splitting out detailed technical discussions and problem areas into > separate docs. Otherwise, the IG becomes too big to maintain easily by > itself. > > This lets us get the first 60% to 80% of users with a single guide. > Then we can focus resources on documenting other aspects of the > installation for either those who want to know more or those who have > troubles. That seems reasonable to me. Maybe an URL pointing out where to look if one has problems ... >> So my advice would be to ask people what problems they have had >> with installation, and see if you can address their problems. >> perhaps in an FAQ chapter. > > Do you have any ideas how to gather this information? I guess just by asking for feedback: "If you've had problems installing Fedora on your computer, please drop a note to problems at wherever describing the problem and the computer." > Do you any interest in working on such an FAQ? I would certainly be willing to help in any way I can with the Fedora project, which seems to me the most likely route for widespread adoption of Linux. However, I don't feel I have the knowledge to author an FAQ. A good FAQ requires a rather unusual combination of talents, I think - on the one hand, knowledge of the subject at issue, and at the same time, ability to adopt the mind-set of someone who does not have this knowledge. I must admit I'm surprised how difficult it often is to find the solution to simple problems by googling. (This applies at least as much to Windows as Linux.) I've always felt that FAQs are too often "Questions I wished you had asked" rather than a genuine attempt to answer questions that actually arise. Here I think Windows _is_ a lot better than Linux. Anyway, best of luck with your project(s), which seem to me potentially of crucial importance to the future of Fedora. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland From freiss at gmx.de Tue Apr 12 09:15:53 2005 From: freiss at gmx.de (Florian Reiss) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:15:53 +0200 Subject: OT: Free / Open Source Software Survey Message-ID: <200504121115.53663.freiss@gmx.de> Dear fedora-docs-list subscribers, I am sorry for interrupting your discussion but maybe you are interested in participating in a scientific survey... I am currently writing my masters thesis in Psychology at the University of Cologne, Germany. I am writing my thesis about the open source community i.e. experiences of developers and users with the open source community. By filling out a questionnaire I designed you would help me to find out about personal motivations for knowledge sharing and cooperation in software projects and software communities. I would be very grateful if you could take 5-10 minutes of your time to help me and would appreciate your experts opinion on the matter. If you are interested in taking part in this survey please use the link below to get to the questionnaire. In case you are not interested or too busy you may simply erase this email. Thank you in advance for your help! Link to the questionnaire: http://www.unipark.de/uc/survey/index.php3?a=fdoc Details about the survey: * The questionnaire is in English and in German. * At the end of the online questionnaire you can take part in a raffle initiated by me. * The investigation is done anonymously which means that no personalised links (invitation to the survey with an individual parameter) are used. * The parameter "fdoc" is just used for methodical reasons in order to know how you have been invited to the questionnaire. * The investigation is done by a partially standardised questionnaire (open and closed questions). * No cookies are set. * All participants will have access to the quantitative statistics on my website. * When the survey period has finished the completely anonymous data set will be offered for download. Best regards, Florian Reiss --- Florian Reiss freiss at gmx.de 59BE B457 80F3 EB5C C7B6 88F8 B373 FA57 1C53 407B -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Apr 12 09:29:40 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:29:40 +0100 Subject: Streamlined Install Guide In-Reply-To: <1113245183.13288.10.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112832627.10018.8.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1113245183.13288.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113298180.10601.231666635@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:46:23 -0700, "Karsten Wade" said: > Yes, this post-install section is a good place to have links to all the > external tutorials that no longer belong in the IG. I intended it as a way of directing new users on to the on-line community as well, through the "Help on the Web" section. Unsure whether to put a more active "Partipate" or "Join the Community" piece in. I also ought to note that Paul has checked in a Disk Partitioning section as well. This document is now pretty much out of the mire (fingers crossed). -- Stuart Ellis From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 12:17:42 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:17:42 -0400 Subject: Streamlined Install Guide In-Reply-To: <1113298180.10601.231666635@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1112832627.10018.8.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1113245183.13288.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113298180.10601.231666635@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1113308263.5101.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 10:29 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:46:23 -0700, "Karsten Wade" > said: > > > Yes, this post-install section is a good place to have links to all the > > external tutorials that no longer belong in the IG. > > I intended it as a way of directing new users on to the on-line > community as well, through the "Help on the Web" section. Unsure > whether to put a more active "Partipate" or "Join the Community" piece > in. > > I also ought to note that Paul has checked in a Disk Partitioning > section as well. This document is now pretty much out of the mire > (fingers crossed). Sorry if I held it up! :-( But it looks like we're back on schedule to possibly have a decent release for FC4, thanks to Stuart's tireless efforts. Do you know who has the bootloader section? I think that may be one of the only things left. I am willing to start editing the portions I didn't write -- i.e. most of the guide -- for style if no one has any objections. Anyone else (who didn't write it) want to split it up with me? N.B. If you're not one of the "old hand" editors -- and I'm most definitely NOT including myself in that group -- you will probably want to visit the current Fedora Documentation Guide DRAFT style chapter, and make sure you are familiar with its content: http://docs.frields.org/html/documentation-guide-en/ I was also thinking about whether it was worthwhile to change the name of this publication from a "guide" to a "handbook," based on its current mission to provide a lower level of instruction than the customary Red Hat Guides. Most of the existing Red Hat Guides are hundreds of pages, due to their extensive cross referencing and exhaustive discussion, whereas this guide will probably clock in at significantly less, due to its more practical tutorial format. Is this nitpicking, or does anyone else think there's value in differentiating between the two? Perhaps it could start out this iteration as the "Installation Handbook" and, when there's enough material and community participation to warrant, it would become the "Installation Guide." Perhaps, on the other hand, I just need more coffee. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Apr 12 12:21:04 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:51:04 +0530 Subject: Streamlined Install Guide In-Reply-To: <1113308263.5101.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112832627.10018.8.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1113245183.13288.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113298180.10601.231666635@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1113308263.5101.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <425BBD30.5050902@redhat.com> Hi > >I was also thinking about whether it was worthwhile to change the name >of this publication from a "guide" to a "handbook," based on its current >mission to provide a lower level of instruction than the customary Red >Hat Guides. Most of the existing Red Hat Guides are hundreds of pages, >due to their extensive cross referencing and exhaustive discussion, >whereas this guide will probably clock in at significantly less, due to >its more practical tutorial format. Is this nitpicking, or does anyone >else think there's value in differentiating between the two? > Considering the fact that FreeBSD handbook is larger than any of the Red Hat guides the difference in terminology looks just like nitpicking to me. End users just want the document regardless of whats its called. regards Rahul From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Apr 12 13:08:47 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:08:47 +0100 Subject: Streamlined Install Guide In-Reply-To: <1113308263.5101.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112832627.10018.8.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1113245183.13288.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113298180.10601.231666635@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1113308263.5101.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1113311327.26810.231679904@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:17:42 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" said: > Sorry if I held it up! :-( But it looks like we're back on schedule to > possibly have a decent release for FC4, thanks to Stuart's tireless > efforts. Well, I *was* tirelessly going in the wrong direction :), and really should have figured out much sooner that I was expecting the near impossible. So I'll happily take any brickbats... > Do you know who has the bootloader section? I think that may be one of the only things left. Mayank (Sharma) sent me an initial draft, and I'll ping him. > I was also thinking about whether it was worthwhile to change the name > of this publication from a "guide" to a "handbook," based on its current > mission to provide a lower level of instruction than the customary Red > Hat Guides. Is this nitpicking, or does anyone > else think there's value in differentiating between the two? Yes, I think that we should define what sort of document we want this project to produce (per separate thread on the FAQ, and not competing with other projects). IIRC, there's a bit of a precedent for Enterprise and Fedora using different terms to distinguish between the slightly different deliverables (bug fixes vs. errata). -- Stuart Ellis From byte at aeon.com.my Tue Apr 12 15:58:10 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 01:58:10 +1000 Subject: Streamlined Install Guide In-Reply-To: <425BBD30.5050902@redhat.com> References: <1112832627.10018.8.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1113245183.13288.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113298180.10601.231666635@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1113308263.5101.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <425BBD30.5050902@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1113321490.4917.366.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 17:51 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Considering the fact that FreeBSD handbook is larger than any of the > Red > Hat guides the difference in terminology looks just like nitpicking > to > me. End users just want the document regardless of whats its called. Glad you brought this up. The FreeBSD Handbook is a *great resource*. If Fedora Docs wants to have the best documentation a Linux distribution can ever have, the aim should be the style of The FreeBSD Handbook Its just _amazing_ -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Apr 12 16:26:53 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:26:53 +0100 Subject: Streamlined Install Guide In-Reply-To: <1113321490.4917.366.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1112832627.10018.8.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1113245183.13288.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113298180.10601.231666635@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1113308263.5101.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <425BBD30.5050902@redhat.com> <1113321490.4917.366.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1113323213.15371.231699341@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 01:58:10 +1000, "Colin Charles" said: > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 17:51 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Considering the fact that FreeBSD handbook is larger than any of the > > Red > > Hat guides the difference in terminology looks just like nitpicking > > to > > me. End users just want the document regardless of whats its called. > > Glad you brought this up. The FreeBSD Handbook is a *great resource*. If > Fedora Docs wants to have the best documentation a Linux distribution > can ever have, the aim should be the style of The FreeBSD Handbook > > Its just _amazing_ Definitely. IMHO, though, it's hard to reproduce: - Their release schedule is slower, which gives them a lot more time to check and revise the whole extent for each release. - They assume a narrower target audience than we might be comfortable with. - The sections also seem fairly tightly scoped. They extensively use callouts to man pages to supplement the material. - I get the impression that they have a much smaller and more unified set of core software than we currently do. - According to an interview with a FreeBSD documenter, the Handbook has about 15 active contributors, which must be quite hard to co-ordinate: http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200408/trhodesinterview.html -- Stuart Ellis From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 12 18:47:54 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:47:54 -0700 Subject: ignore, test of mailman celerity Message-ID: <1113331674.13288.61.camel@erato.phig.org> ignore, thx -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dmalcolm at redhat.com Tue Apr 12 19:26:16 2005 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:26:16 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Docbook wiki] Message-ID: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Has anyone tried this? Looks like a bridge between DocBook and a wiki-style of editing, as discussed on recent threads. I haven't yet tried actual editing with the software. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Jaap Haitsma Subject: Docbook wiki Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:31:49 +0200 Size: 4006 URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 12 19:39:42 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:39:42 -0700 Subject: new mailing list for FDSCo Message-ID: <1113334782.13288.77.camel@erato.phig.org> To help keep traffic on this list focused on actual documentation work, we have formed a separate list for the Fedora Documentation Steering Committee (FDSCo) to have discussions. https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list This list is open, publicly archived, and has no restrictions on membership or who can post. You are heartily encouraged to join, lurk, and keep us on our toes. On topic for the list is FDSCo business. Generally this means FDSCo members are doing the discussing, but you may join the discussion if your comments are on topic _and_ relevant. All other topics should be discussed on fedora-docs-list. Minutes from our weekly IRC meetings on #fedora-docs will be mailed to this new list for archiving. In this way we can practice open, transparent leadership without burdening the general docs discussion with administrivia. cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Apr 12 19:57:05 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 20:57:05 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Docbook wiki] In-Reply-To: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200504122057.05537.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Tuesday 12 Apr 2005 20:26, David Malcolm wrote: > Has anyone tried this? Looks like a bridge between DocBook and a > wiki-style of editing, as discussed on recent threads. > > I haven't yet tried actual editing with the software. Looks good. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 12 21:53:17 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:53:17 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Docbook wiki] In-Reply-To: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1113342797.13288.115.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 15:26 -0400, David Malcolm wrote: > Has anyone tried this? Looks like a bridge between DocBook and a > wiki-style of editing, as discussed on recent threads. > > I haven't yet tried actual editing with the software. I tried the demo, but it was password protected. http://www.soft.inima.al/book/edit.php > email message attachment, "Forwarded message - Docbook wiki" > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 15:26 -0400, David Malcolm wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Came across this http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/ > > It's a wiki frontend for creating docbook content. Sounds like a very > > easy to make docbook content. Would be great if that would lead to more > > people contributing to the GNOME documentation if such an interface > > was available Ha! It just goes to show you, no itch is an island. If you see that it needs to be done, chances are someone somewhere is already working on it. Upsides without doing a deeper review: * Resolves most of the concerns from earlier by giving everyone what they want to work with, and storing it all in XML in a CVS. * It appears the developer does work using Fedora: http://www.soft.inima.al/book/INSTALL Perhaps s/he is interested in maintaining a package for Extras? Or otherwise integrating with the Fedora Project? Downsides I see so far: * New piece of infrastructure required? I don't know if we can get this hosted on fedora.redhat.com, which is where it _should_ be. That requires someone to install, configure, and admin. * Can it use our existing CVS seamlessly? * Can we hack it effectively? It already uses xsltproc, so we're most of the way there, right? * Do all the components come as packages? I reckon this will be a requirement of the host system administrator. swish-e viewcvs phpwebapp docbookwiki php = 4.3.2 (for some scripts) Anyone with time and know how to: A) Install the software. B) Document the installation (at least notes). C) Provide a report back to us on ease of installation and any other software details worth mentioning? I'm totally interested, and also totally don't have time to do it now. Also, all my lab machines are busy. :/ Very promising! - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 12 21:58:15 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:58:15 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Docbook wiki] In-Reply-To: <1113342797.13288.115.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1113342797.13288.115.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113343095.13288.118.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 14:53 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Downsides I see so far: One big one I just noticed. All of the linking is done with Javascript, I don't see how to make direct links to content. Which is weird to me. There must be a way other than, "Point them at the top and tell them how to Drill > Down > Deeper > For > Content". - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dasho at ma-isp.com Wed Apr 13 13:15:14 2005 From: dasho at ma-isp.com (Dashamir Hoxha) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:15:14 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Docbook wiki] In-Reply-To: <1113342797.13288.115.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1113342797.13288.115.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200504131513.58399.dasho@ma-isp.com> > > I haven't yet tried actual editing with the software. > > I tried the demo, but it was password protected. > > http://www.soft.inima.al/book/edit.php The user 'guest' (password: guest) now has admin rights on the test book, so he can edit it as well. From dasho at ma-isp.com Wed Apr 13 13:18:45 2005 From: dasho at ma-isp.com (Dashamir Hoxha) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:18:45 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Docbook wiki] In-Reply-To: <1113343095.13288.118.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1113342797.13288.115.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113343095.13288.118.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200504131518.45074.dasho@ma-isp.com> On Tuesday 12 April 2005 23:58, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 14:53 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Downsides I see so far: > > One big one I just noticed. All of the linking is done with Javascript, > I don't see how to make direct links to content. Which is weird to me. > There must be a way other than, "Point them at the top and tell them how > to Drill > Down > Deeper > For > Content". Try this link: http://www.soft.inima.al/book/xref.php?docbookwiki_guide/reading From dmalcolm at redhat.com Wed Apr 13 17:09:36 2005 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:09:36 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Docbook wiki] In-Reply-To: <200504131513.58399.dasho@ma-isp.com> References: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1113342797.13288.115.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504131513.58399.dasho@ma-isp.com> Message-ID: <1113412176.5262.145.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 15:15 +0200, Dashamir Hoxha wrote: > > > I haven't yet tried actual editing with the software. > > > > I tried the demo, but it was password protected. > > > > http://www.soft.inima.al/book/edit.php > > The user 'guest' (password: guest) now has admin rights > on the test book, so he can edit it as well. Wow, this is really neat! I just did some test editing of the test book, seems to handle , , etc nicely Is there a way to get it to support entities, I wonder? From quarlewm at jmu.edu Wed Apr 13 17:10:02 2005 From: quarlewm at jmu.edu (William M. Quarles) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:10:02 -0400 Subject: Preventing spammers from infiltrating the Red Hat mailing lists Message-ID: Hi all, I sent what I thought was a very important request to one of the Fedora lists which was quickly beaten down, and I did not receive anything back on subsequent replies. I would appreciate your help in making sure that the lists are safe for all of us. I'm actually going to the trouble of subscribing to nearly all of the Red Hat mailing lists just to get the word out. One thing that I have done recently was to search for my e-mail addresses on the Internet web pages to find all of the places that list them. Why bother doing this? Just like how Google has spiders that crawl the Internet to gather general information, spammers have spiders that crawl the Internet to gather e-mail addresses to spam people. I have contacted all of the websites who did not modify my e-mail addresses (mostly on mailing lists) in such that they cannot be collected. Red Hat has done at least one thing right in that they have modified everyone's e-mail address in their web archive, such that it reads something like for mine. However Red Hat has left one big gaping whole that the spam spiders can still crawl into. There is a complete active mirror of these lists as postable newsgroups kept on a service called Gmane . I'm using Gmane to write this message to you now. It's a pretty sophisticated setup, has safeguards to prevent spam getting posted, and they use Spam Assassin to clean up stuff that still ends up on the list (except you have to filter it yourself on the newsgroup interface). The only problem is that spam spiders crawl the newsgroups to collect e-mail addresses. Gmane has a safeguard to prevent this, but it has to be turned on by the list administrator. Gmane can encrypt the e-mail addresses on the list such that any mail sent to them is routed through Gmane first, and then the sender must under go a challenge-response before the message gets routed to the actual recipient. Of all of the Red Hat lists I've only found two newsgroup mirrors that use address encryption: gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.java , and gmane.redhat.taroon . If you would like to see the Red Hat newsgroup mirrors have encrypted e-mail addresses, please reply to this topic and discuss. If you are even more brave (important since some of these lists are high-volume and not everything gets read), please contact your list administrator directly at . If someone knows how to get the word out on the international lists or to their administrators (since I don't speak multiple tongues), please do so. If someone knows who to contact who can make all of the newsgroups have encrypted e-mail addresses going above all of the list administrators (maybe the person who decided to obfuscate them all on the web archive?) please contact him or her and let us know how to contact that person. Thanks so much, William From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Apr 13 17:25:32 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:25:32 -0500 Subject: DocBook Wiki Setup Help Message-ID: <20050413122532.44f190eb.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> I'm trying to get this Docbook Wiki tool setup locally. I've installed the swish-e prerequisite and then downloaded and built the "book" tool from the website. How do I connect the PHP stuff from the Docbook Wiki to my local http server? No, I'm not much of a web guy. Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 13 17:43:51 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:43:51 -0700 Subject: DocBook Wiki Setup Help In-Reply-To: <20050413122532.44f190eb.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20050413122532.44f190eb.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1113414231.13288.126.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 12:25 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > I'm trying to get this Docbook Wiki tool setup locally. I've > installed the swish-e prerequisite and then downloaded and built the > "book" tool from the website. > > How do I connect the PHP stuff from the Docbook Wiki to my local http > server? No, I'm not much of a web guy. If anyone has any good ideas, we're on #fedora-docs on irc.freenode.net figuring this out. :) - Karsten, who also isn't much of a Web guy -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From walrus at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 13 17:38:16 2005 From: walrus at bellsouth.net (William M. Quarles) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:38:16 -0400 Subject: Preventing spammers from infiltrating the Red Hat mailing lists Message-ID: Hi all, I sent what I thought was a very important request to one of the Fedora lists which was quickly beaten down, and I did not receive anything back on subsequent replies. I would appreciate your help in making sure that the lists are safe for all of us. I'm actually going to the trouble of subscribing to nearly all of the Red Hat mailing lists just to get the word out. One thing that I have done recently was to search for my e-mail addresses on the Internet web pages to find all of the places that list them. Why bother doing this? Just like how Google has spiders that crawl the Internet to gather general information, spammers have spiders that crawl the Internet to gather e-mail addresses to spam people. I have contacted all of the websites who did not modify my e-mail addresses (mostly on mailing lists) in such that they cannot be collected. Red Hat has done at least one thing right in that they have modified everyone's e-mail address in their web archive, such that it reads something like for mine. However Red Hat has left one big gaping whole that the spam spiders can still crawl into. There is a complete active mirror of these lists as postable newsgroups kept on a service called Gmane . I'm using Gmane to write this message to you now. It's a pretty sophisticated setup, has safeguards to prevent spam getting posted, and they use Spam Assassin to clean up stuff that still ends up on the list (except you have to filter it yourself on the newsgroup interface). The only problem is that spam spiders crawl the newsgroups to collect e-mail addresses. Gmane has a safeguard to prevent this, but it has to be turned on by the list administrator. Gmane can encrypt the e-mail addresses on the list such that any mail sent to them is routed through Gmane first, and then the sender must under go a challenge-response before the message gets routed to the actual recipient. Of all of the Red Hat lists I've only found two newsgroup mirrors that use address encryption: gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.java , and gmane.redhat.taroon . If you would like to see the Red Hat newsgroup mirrors have encrypted e-mail addresses, please reply to this topic and discuss. If you are even more brave (important since some of these lists are high-volume and not everything gets read), please contact your list administrator directly at . If someone knows how to get the word out on the international lists or to their administrators (since I don't speak multiple tongues), please do so. If someone knows who to contact who can make all of the newsgroups have encrypted e-mail addresses going above all of the list administrators (maybe the person who decided to obfuscate them all on the web archive?) please contact him or her and let us know how to contact that person. Thanks so much, William From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Wed Apr 13 17:47:42 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:47:42 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Docbook wiki] In-Reply-To: <200504131513.58399.dasho@ma-isp.com> References: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1113342797.13288.115.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504131513.58399.dasho@ma-isp.com> Message-ID: <200504131947.42817.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Wednesday 13 April 2005 15:15, Dashamir Hoxha wrote: > > > I haven't yet tried actual editing with the software. > > > > I tried the demo, but it was password protected. > > > > http://www.soft.inima.al/book/edit.php > > The user 'guest' (password: guest) now has admin rights > on the test book, so he can edit it as well. This thing is absolutely great! It would be perfect if it did the syntax highlighting in docbook mode. -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Wed Apr 13 17:48:21 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:48:21 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Docbook wiki] In-Reply-To: <200504131518.45074.dasho@ma-isp.com> References: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1113343095.13288.118.camel@erato.phig.org> <200504131518.45074.dasho@ma-isp.com> Message-ID: <200504131948.21131.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Wednesday 13 April 2005 15:18, Dashamir Hoxha wrote: > On Tuesday 12 April 2005 23:58, Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 14:53 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > Downsides I see so far: > > > > One big one I just noticed. All of the linking is done with Javascript, > > I don't see how to make direct links to content. Which is weird to me. > > There must be a way other than, "Point them at the top and tell them how > > to Drill > Down > Deeper > For > Content". > > Try this link: > http://www.soft.inima.al/book/xref.php?docbookwiki_guide/reading Is there a reason these links aren't the default? -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From walrus at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 13 17:52:03 2005 From: walrus at bellsouth.net (William M. Quarles) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:52:03 -0400 Subject: Preventing spammers from infiltrating the Red Hat mailing lists In-Reply-To: <1113414052.20552.5.camel@dch.tqmcube.com> References: <1113414052.20552.5.camel@dch.tqmcube.com> Message-ID: David Cary Hart wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 12:36 -0400, William M. Quarles wrote: > > >>If you would like to see the Red Hat newsgroup mirrors have encrypted >>e-mail addresses, please reply to this topic and discuss. If you are >>even more brave (important since some of these lists are high-volume and >>not everything gets read), please contact your list administrator >>directly at . If someone knows how to get >>the word out on the international lists or to their administrators >>(since I don't speak multiple tongues), please do so. If someone knows >>who to contact who can make all of the newsgroups have encrypted e-mail >>addresses going above all of the list administrators (maybe the person >>who decided to obfuscate them all on the web archive?) please contact >>him or her and let us know how to contact that person. >> > > The problem is spam not the lists nor list management. True but the list management could take on small step to protect all of us, so I don't see why they shouldn't do it, particularly when they have already taken a similar step on Red Hat website. From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Apr 15 04:08:03 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:08:03 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Docbook wiki] In-Reply-To: <1113342797.13288.115.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113333976.5262.95.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1113342797.13288.115.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113538083.4518.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 14:53 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > * New piece of infrastructure required? I don't know if we can get > this > hosted on fedora.redhat.com, which is where it _should_ be. That > requires someone to install, configure, and admin. It can sit on fedoraproject.org if it passes security sanity; being PHP dependent, you'll have to bend Seth to allow it IIRC, next week you're in for attending our meeting, and you should get the invite from gdk soon. Bring this up during the meeting, thanks -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From hoffmann at redhat.com Fri Apr 15 10:19:55 2005 From: hoffmann at redhat.com (William HOFFMANN) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:19:55 +0200 Subject: Self Introduction : William Hoffmann Message-ID: <20050415101955.GA11890@william.paris.redhat.com> Hello everyboy So here's my self introduction: 1/ My name is William HOFFMANN 2/ I'm living in Pantin (near Paris) in France. And I'm working in Nanterre on the other side of Paris... 3/ I'm a training instructor, I'm teaching in the linux area. 4/ My compagny is Red Hat Inc, 5/ My goals in the fedora project : My first goal is to share my knowledge I'd like to write about network or mail systems ( Postfix ) and I'm currently working on a doc about securisation of mail system ( postfix/ssl/tls/clamav/spamassin) My native language is french ... and I hope my english is good enough to be well understood. 6/ Historical qualifications : To learn docbook I've wrote some "memo" in french see => http://people.redhat.com/~hoffmann/ I've some skills in Linux / networking / system administration 7/ GPG KEYID and fingerprint : pub 1024D/A2C85378 2004-09-30 William HOFFMANN (William) Empreinte de la cl? = F5EC D418 5989 3D9A C7B8 565D 95EA 1BD9 A2C8 5378 sub 2048g/484A92F6 2004-09-30 http://people.redhat.com/~hoffmann/william_hoffmann.asc Anything else ? -- -------------------------------------------------------------- - William HOFFMANN +33 (0)1 41 91 23 21 - - - GLS Instructor RHCE RHCX - - - - http://people.redhat.com/~hoffmann - - - Red Hat France GnuPG ID : A2C85378 - -------------------------------------------------------------- From andrewm at inventa.ru Fri Apr 15 13:22:42 2005 From: andrewm at inventa.ru (Andrew Martynov) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:22:42 +0400 Subject: FC4 Release Notes and translations Message-ID: <20050415132242.GA8825@andrewm.inventa.ru> Hello, I have read this list for couple of months but I did not see the way to translate the future FC4 Release Notes. We can translate current Wiki document http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fReleaseNotes_2fCore4Test1 but obviously we got a problem with version control and so on... If there are no any suitable methods to organize transation process could I ask the chief editor to announce the readiness of this Release Notes in fedora-trans-list at redhat.com and give few days for translators to localize it. I suppose such localized Release Notes will be very usefull for non-English speaking people. -- Best regards, Andrew Martynov RHCE/RHCX Inventa -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rpaiz at simpaticus.com Fri Apr 15 23:44:17 2005 From: rpaiz at simpaticus.com (Rodolfo J. Paiz) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:44:17 -0600 Subject: new mailing list for FDSCo In-Reply-To: <1113334782.13288.77.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113334782.13288.77.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113608657.6204.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 12:39 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > In this way we can practice open, transparent leadership without > burdening the general docs discussion with administrivia. > Wise, productive, and appreciated. Cheers, -- Rodolfo J. Paiz From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Apr 17 22:16:54 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:16:54 +0100 Subject: [RFC] Legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <1112963454.5066.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112748548.14163.5.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112952853.17353.231408067@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1112963454.5066.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1113776214.9697.7.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 08:30 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 10:34 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > - Do people think it's useful/feasible to specify which versions of > > Fedora a document pertains to within the document, or not ? > > Absolutely! I have used a local entity like &FCLOCALVER; to "fix" the > pertinent information. This scheme works even for documents that we > will continue to maintain. OK. Perhaps we can formalise that as &FCTARGETVER; or similar ? > > - What should happen when the version of Fedora Core is no longer > > supported by Legacy ? At some point copies of a document will be still > > in circulation with no support at all. > > We'd have to decide whether to keep an "obsolete docs" page around, or > to simply hit 'em with the Official FDP/Acme Death Ray. I like the > former idea. I think all documents should include a statement that the > newest official version of a document can be found at the FDP web site. > There could be a statement on the FDP web site to the effect that if you > don't see your document there, check the "obsolete" page for more > information. I've now filed an RFE for this as bug 155179, with a link to your post. From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Apr 17 22:22:15 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:22:15 +0100 Subject: [Doc review] - Configuring updates (bug 155180) Message-ID: <1113776535.9697.13.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> This is a draft tutorial using up2date and the alert icon: HTML: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/using-up2date-en/ DocBook source: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-using- up2date-0.2.tar.gz It's intended for new users, so that they can get their systems updating before moving on to the hard stuff with yum. From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Apr 17 22:25:37 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:25:37 +0100 Subject: [Doc review] - Software management with yum (bug 155190) Message-ID: <1113776737.9697.18.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> This is a trimmed and tweaked version of the software management guide posted previously. It starts with a short overview of the concepts and tools for new users, and then describes yum. HTML: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/yum-software-management- en/ DocBook source: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-yum-software- management-0.2.tar.gz From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Apr 17 23:27:54 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:27:54 -0500 Subject: [Doc review] - Configuring updates (bug 155180) In-Reply-To: <1113776535.9697.13.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <1113776535.9697.13.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <20050417182754.462add47.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Stuart Ellis , spake thus: > DocBook source: > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-using- > up2date-0.2.tar.gz Where is this line wrapping coming from? You? or Me? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Mon Apr 18 11:01:16 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:01:16 +0100 Subject: [Doc review] - Configuring updates (bug 155180) In-Reply-To: <20050417182754.462add47.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1113776535.9697.13.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <20050417182754.462add47.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1113822076.9673.232111655@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:27:54 -0500, "Tommy Reynolds" said: > Uttered Stuart Ellis , spake thus: > > > DocBook source: > > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-using- > > up2date-0.2.tar.gz > > Where is this line wrapping coming from? You? or Me? Me... I copied from Firefox > Evolution, FWIW. -- Stuart Ellis From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Mon Apr 18 12:10:32 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:10:32 -0500 Subject: [Doc review] - Configuring updates (bug 155180) In-Reply-To: <1113822076.9673.232111655@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1113776535.9697.13.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <20050417182754.462add47.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1113822076.9673.232111655@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050418071032.7c7b9c2d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Stuart Ellis" , spake thus: > > > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/fedora-using- > > > up2date-0.2.tar.gz > > > > Where is this line wrapping coming from? You? or Me? > > Me... I copied from Firefox > Evolution, FWIW. OK. Un-wrapped URL's are friendly. Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 19 09:59:18 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 02:59:18 -0700 Subject: FC4 Release Notes and translations In-Reply-To: <20050415132242.GA8825@andrewm.inventa.ru> References: <20050415132242.GA8825@andrewm.inventa.ru> Message-ID: <1113904758.13288.251.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 17:22 +0400, Andrew Martynov wrote: > Hello, > > I have read this list for couple of months but I did not > see the way to translate the future FC4 Release Notes. > > We can translate current Wiki document > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fReleaseNotes_2fCore4Test1 > but obviously we got a problem with version control and so on... That's very out of date, and even the test2 version is sparse of important information. > If there are no any suitable methods to organize > transation process could I ask the chief editor > to announce the readiness of this Release Notes > in fedora-trans-list at redhat.com and give few days > for translators to localize it. > > I suppose such localized Release Notes will be > very usefull for non-English speaking people. Well, I suppose something is better than nothing. I say that just because I don't like the state the relnotes are in, and looking to be for FC 4. How are the translated release notes dealt with traditionally? Does the originating writer hand them to the translators prior to release, and by how many days? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Apr 19 21:05:26 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:05:26 +0100 Subject: Suggestion for doc format to be submitted by new authors Message-ID: <200504192205.26917.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> POD: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlpod.html http://perldoc.perl.org/search.html?q=pod -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 21:15:43 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:15:43 -0400 Subject: Suggestion for doc format to be submitted by new authors In-Reply-To: <200504192205.26917.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> References: <200504192205.26917.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1113945343.4851.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 22:05 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > POD: > > http://perldoc.perl.org/perlpod.html > http://perldoc.perl.org/search.html?q=pod Cool, I don't see any reason why this can't be turned into DocBook/XML as easily as anything else. Karsten is putting up a page where we will be able to create (or create a link to) a page tracking comments for changes to the DocGuide... We'll add them to BZ as we go, as a FDSCo task. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Apr 19 21:42:14 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:42:14 +0100 Subject: Suggestion for doc format to be submitted by new authors In-Reply-To: <1113945343.4851.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200504192205.26917.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> <1113945343.4851.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504192242.15382.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Tuesday 19 Apr 2005 22:15, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 22:05 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > POD: > > > > http://perldoc.perl.org/perlpod.html > > http://perldoc.perl.org/search.html?q=pod > > Cool, I don't see any reason why this can't be turned into DocBook/XML > as easily as anything else. Karsten is putting up a page where we will > be able to create (or create a link to) a page tracking comments for > changes to the DocGuide... We'll add them to BZ as we go, as a FDSCo > task. You can use: http://search.cpan.org/~nandu/Pod-DocBook-1.2/lib/Pod/DocBook.pm And: http://search.cpan.org/~nandu/Pod-DocBook-1.2/pod2docbook -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From andrewm at inventa.ru Wed Apr 20 06:03:18 2005 From: andrewm at inventa.ru (Andrew Martynov) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:03:18 +0400 Subject: FC4 Release Notes and translations In-Reply-To: <20050419160029.DD8037368A@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20050419160029.DD8037368A@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4265F0A6.1080604@inventa.ru> Hello, Karsten! Unfortunaly no one Release Notes for Fedora Core was not translated yet. I previously have not experiense in cooperation with Red Hat team in translation RelNotes and can not describe the traditional way for such translation process. From my point of view at least three days is required for preparing good translation. Best regards, Andrew Martynov On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 at 02:59 -0700 Karsten Wade wrote >On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 17:22 +0400, Andrew Martynov wrote: > > >>Hello, >> >>I have read this list for couple of months but I did not >>see the way to translate the future FC4 Release Notes. >> >>We can translate current Wiki document >>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fReleaseNotes_2fCore4Test1 >>but obviously we got a problem with version control and so on... >> >> > >That's very out of date, and even the test2 version is sparse of >important information. > > > >>If there are no any suitable methods to organize >>transation process could I ask the chief editor >>to announce the readiness of this Release Notes >>in fedora-trans-list at redhat.com and give few days >>for translators to localize it. >> >>I suppose such localized Release Notes will be >>very usefull for non-English speaking people. >> >> > >Well, I suppose something is better than nothing. > >I say that just because I don't like the state the relnotes are in, and >looking to be for FC 4. > >How are the translated release notes dealt with traditionally? Does the >originating writer hand them to the translators prior to release, and by >how many days? > >- Karsten > > -- Best regards, Andrew Martynov Inventa phone +7(095)924-8651 fax +7(095)927-0981 andrewm at inventa.ru http://www.inventa.ru From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 20 08:20:42 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:20:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Man page format to Docbook XML for New Authors Message-ID: <55542.193.195.148.66.1113985242.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Dear Guys, I recently, with the help of Stefan, tagged up the whole of: http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda.html To give: http://www.amanda.org/docs/using.html However, to get the manpages into docbook: http://www.amanda.org/docs/AMANDA-manpages.html We used Eric Raymonds Doclifter, which as you can see by the above results it's very good: http://www.catb.org/~esr/doclifter/ Man page format is easy to write. Thoughts? -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Wed Apr 20 08:34:29 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:34:29 +0100 Subject: Man page format to Docbook XML for New Authors In-Reply-To: <55542.193.195.148.66.1113985242.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <55542.193.195.148.66.1113985242.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1113986069.18710.232292992@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:20:42 +0100 (BST), "Gavin Henry" said: > Dear Guys, > > However, to get the manpages into docbook: > > http://www.amanda.org/docs/AMANDA-manpages.html > > We used Eric Raymonds Doclifter, which as you can see by the above > results > it's very good: > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/doclifter/ > > Man page format is easy to write. > > Thoughts? This is on the Sponsors Needed page for Extras: "EricRaymond: esr[AT]thyrsus.com. Maintainer of fetchmail, gpsd, shipper, doclifter. Fetchmail is in core, David Zeuthen wants gpsd for the HAL project, doclifter is part of the master plan to move man pages to XML/HTML, and shipper aims to be a release-shipping agent aware of the Fedora submission path." I don't know any more about this master plan... -- Stuart Ellis From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Apr 20 08:38:16 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:08:16 +0530 Subject: Man page format to Docbook XML for New Authors In-Reply-To: <1113986069.18710.232292992@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <55542.193.195.148.66.1113985242.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113986069.18710.232292992@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <426614F8.9090708@redhat.com> Hi > >"EricRaymond: esr[AT]thyrsus.com. Maintainer of fetchmail, gpsd, >shipper, doclifter. Fetchmail is in core, David Zeuthen wants gpsd for >the HAL project, doclifter is part of the master plan to move man pages >to XML/HTML, and shipper aims to be a release-shipping agent aware of >the Fedora submission path." > >I don't know any more about this master plan... > > > >-- > >Stuart Ellis > > > Unfortunately the slides for the presentation he made in FUDCon is not available in the Fedora wiki and the voice in the relevant video is not very comprehensable to me. I guess we will have to just ask him regards Rahul From duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk Wed Apr 20 08:44:48 2005 From: duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk (Duncan Lithgow) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:44:48 +0200 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) Message-ID: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> Hi all I've just started reading the 'Fedora Project Documentation Guide' and have some comments on it. Are the people who edit that document on this list and tuned in? As a newbie I'm trying to document some of my problems as I go, and I want to use docbook for other projects. I'm familiar with XMLMind but can't get anything working on fc3 to write/edit DocBook. The first page of 'Fedora Project Documentation Guide' doesn't help me at all. It first refers to 3 files I can get through yum (xmlto ? docbook-style-xsl ? docbook-dtds) and then jumps into checking things out of cvs. So, on the very first page fedora docs has lost me. I need two types of help 1. getting going with DocBook 2. who to talk to to make the docs newbie friendly Duncan From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 20 08:51:59 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:51:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > Hi all > > I've just started reading the 'Fedora Project Documentation Guide' and > have some comments on it. Are the people who edit that document on this > list and tuned in? Yes, we are ;-) > As a newbie I'm trying to document some of my problems as I go, and I > want to use docbook for other projects. I'm familiar with XMLMind but > can't get anything working on fc3 to write/edit DocBook. If you can use XMLMind, you can certainly do bog standard Docbook. > The first page of 'Fedora Project Documentation Guide' doesn't help me > at all. It first refers to 3 files I can get through yum (xmlto ??? > docbook-style-xsl ??? docbook-dtds) and then jumps into checking things > out of cvs. I don't believe you ;-) Do a yum search xmlto and yum search docbook. They are definiteley there. > So, on the very first page fedora docs has lost me. > > I need two types of help > 1. getting going with DocBook See above. > 2. who to talk to to make the docs newbie friendly Us. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From ivazquez at ivazquez.net Wed Apr 20 08:58:26 2005 From: ivazquez at ivazquez.net (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 04:58:26 -0400 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <1113987507.13656.58.camel@ignacio.ignacio.lan> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 10:44 +0200, Duncan Lithgow wrote: > As a newbie I'm trying to document some of my problems as I go, and I > want to use docbook for other projects. I'm familiar with XMLMind but > can't get anything working on fc3 to write/edit DocBook. You can use Conglomerate found in Fedora Extras for this. -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams http://fedora.ivazquez.net/ gpg --keyserver hkp://subkeys.pgp.net --recv-key 38028b72 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk Wed Apr 20 10:46:30 2005 From: duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk (Duncan Lithgow) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:46:30 +0200 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1113993990.4771.11.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> Hi Gavin > It first refers to 3 files I can get through yum (xmlto ??? > > docbook-style-xsl ??? docbook-dtds) and then jumps into checking things > > out of cvs. > > I don't believe you ;-) Do a yum search xmlto and yum search docbook. They > are definiteley there. You were right, they're already installed ( I thought i'd selected the docbook stuff at install), so why do I get # yum install xmlto ... Nothing to do This may seem silly, but I'm a bit believer in lessening the learning curves steepness, so can you add the line "Do 'yum search ' as root to see if you need to install any of the files." to: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-getting- files.html > > 1. getting going with DocBook > See above. Well not quite, I still don't know what app to start and what to do with it... Nor do I have any experience of using cvs, maybe you can recommend a link and add it to that page as well? > > 2. who to talk to to make the docs newbie friendly > Us. Hi there. Nice to meet you. From duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk Wed Apr 20 10:49:50 2005 From: duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk (Duncan Lithgow) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:49:50 +0200 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1113994190.4771.13.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> Ammend my earlier reply, Ignacio recommended Conglomerate off list, which I'm trying now. Duncan From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 20 10:55:58 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:55:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1113993990.4771.11.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113993990.4771.11.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <65078.193.195.148.66.1113994558.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > Hi Gavin > >> It first refers to 3 files I can get through yum (xmlto ???????? >> > docbook-style-xsl ???????? docbook-dtds) and then jumps into checking >> things >> > out of cvs. >> >> I don't believe you ;-) Do a yum search xmlto and yum search docbook. >> They >> are definiteley there. > You were right, they're already installed ( I thought i'd selected the > docbook stuff at install), so why do I get > # yum install xmlto > ... > Nothing to do > > This may seem silly, but I'm a bit believer in lessening the learning > curves steepness, so can you add the line > > "Do 'yum search ' as root to see if you need to install any > of the files." > > to: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-getting- > files.html I agree. This needs to be updated. I'll add this to the docs wiki. > >> > 1. getting going with DocBook >> See above. > Well not quite, I still don't know what app to start and what to do with > it... > Nor do I have any experience of using cvs, maybe you can recommend a > link and add it to that page as well? I think the instructions are pretty clear. This is the doc I followed when I started. It points you http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-emacs.html and lists explict commands, which is all you need to type. So, paste one line at a time, hit enter and you're done: export CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous at rhlinux.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS cvs -z3 login cvs -z3 co fedora-docs > >> > 2. who to talk to to make the docs newbie friendly >> Us. > Hi there. Nice to meet you. > Pleasure. From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 20 10:56:59 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:56:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1113994190.4771.13.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113994190.4771.13.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <65124.193.195.148.66.1113994619.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > Ammend my earlier reply, Ignacio recommended Conglomerate off list, > which I'm trying now. I really recommend Emacs with nxml-mode: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-emacs-nxml.html > > Duncan > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 20 11:05:00 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:05:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1113993990.4771.11.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113993990.4771.11.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <33131.193.195.148.66.1113995100.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > This may seem silly, but I'm a bit believer in lessening the learning > curves steepness, so can you add the line > > "Do 'yum search ' as root to see if you need to install any > of the files." > See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fMasterTasks From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Apr 20 11:09:43 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:39:43 +0530 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1113993990.4771.11.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113993990.4771.11.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <42663877.3060203@redhat.com> Hi Duncan Lithgow wrote: > >You were right, they're already installed ( I thought i'd selected the docbook stuff at install), so why do I get ># yum install xmlto >... >Nothing to do > thats yum's way of letting you know that the package is already installed. I found it confusing too and filed a bug report about it. Havent got a response from the developer thou Seth is pretty active on responses otherwise regards Rahul From duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk Wed Apr 20 11:46:36 2005 From: duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk (Duncan Lithgow) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:46:36 +0200 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <65124.193.195.148.66.1113994619.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113994190.4771.13.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <65124.193.195.148.66.1113994619.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1113997596.5473.6.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> I installed cvs and ran those commands, but I'm not sure what it's done... > I really recommend Emacs with nxml-mode: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-emacs-nxml.html Okay, I'll try that as well... I got this far: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation- guide/s1-emacs-cedfile.html It says: "Find the parent file for the group of DocBook files." But use of the term *the* in reference to a group of DocBook files is confusing. Am I supposed to already have some DocBook file? I'm quite lost now. I assume the reason that Conglomerate was easy to get up and running is because this guide is to make emacs compliant with the doc project and anything i make with conglomerate (without extra configurations) would be invalid for this project - is that about right? Duncan From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 20 13:11:01 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:11:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1113997596.5473.6.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113994190.4771.13.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <65124.193.195.148.66.1113994619.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113997596.5473.6.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <44102.193.195.148.66.1114002661.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > I installed cvs and ran those commands, but I'm not sure what it's > done... > >> I really recommend Emacs with nxml-mode: >> >> http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-emacs-nxml.html > Okay, I'll try that as well... > > I got this far: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation- > guide/s1-emacs-cedfile.html > > It says: > "Find the parent file for the group of DocBook files." But use of the > term *the* in reference to a group of DocBook files is confusing. Am I > supposed to already have some DocBook file? I'm quite lost now. The parent file means the file that has the docbook declaration at the top, like: > I assume the reason that Conglomerate was easy to get up and running is > because this guide is to make emacs compliant with the doc project and > anything i make with conglomerate (without extra configurations) would > be invalid for this project - is that about right? It would be ok, but we do not not what delcaration it uses or how it tags pu some things. It for uniform editing basically. From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Apr 20 14:28:07 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:28:07 -0500 Subject: Man page format to Docbook XML for New Authors In-Reply-To: <55542.193.195.148.66.1113985242.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <55542.193.195.148.66.1113985242.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <20050420092807.679f6a37.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Gavin Henry" , spake thus: > We used Eric Raymonds Doclifter, which as you can see by the above results > it's very good: > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/doclifter/ > > Man page format is easy to write. FTIW, I've been toying with the idea of using groff and friends to solve the PDF generation problem since groff outputs PostScript and we have utilities to bang that into PDF format, however there seems to be some aversion to using custom XSLT stylesheets. Can most folks get by without WYSIWYG editor capability? Us old geezers still think in 1-part-paper-green stripe printouts, but the I-am-not-a-developer contributor probably needs more patronizing, I mean "friendly", tools. Maybe a small DTD for an HTML-like subset; there are stylesheets out there already to transform HTML into XSL-FO but we'd need to keep anybody from being really clever and to keep it simple. Anybody have a sense of the zeitgeist about this? Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Apr 20 14:42:49 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:42:49 -0500 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> Message-ID: <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Duncan Lithgow , spake thus: > As a newbie I'm trying to document some of my problems as I go, and I > want to use docbook for other projects. I'm familiar with XMLMind but > can't get anything working on fc3 to write/edit DocBook. The tool I use is jEdit from http://www.jedit.org because it doesn't need all that finicky setup and DTD rebuilding that emacs does; it just works out-of-the-box. You still get syntax coloring, tag completion, a context-sensitive tag display, and even spell checking for your XML document. HTH -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Apr 20 14:50:42 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:20:42 +0530 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> Hi >The tool I use is jEdit from http://www.jedit.org because it doesn't >need all that finicky setup and DTD rebuilding that emacs does; it >just works out-of-the-box. You still get syntax coloring, tag >completion, a context-sensitive tag display, and even spell checking >for your XML document. > >HTH > > Anyone tried compiling this with GCJ. If that works it can pushed into Fedora Extras. The Free Java stack seems to be maturing now regards Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 15:14:50 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:14:50 -0400 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1114010090.4587.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 20:20 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > >The tool I use is jEdit from http://www.jedit.org because it doesn't > >need all that finicky setup and DTD rebuilding that emacs does; it > >just works out-of-the-box. You still get syntax coloring, tag > >completion, a context-sensitive tag display, and even spell checking > >for your XML document. > > Anyone tried compiling this with GCJ. If that works it can pushed into > Fedora Extras. The Free Java stack seems to be maturing now I looked at both jEdit and Conglomerate this morning for the first time. Initial impressions are that both are very full featured. IMHO Conglomerate has the edge for a few reasons: 1. Much smaller set of requirements (check "rpm -qR") 2. More adherent to the set of common Fedora HIG (less cluttered interface) 3. Conglomerate is more of a WYSIWYM (*M="Mean") tool Conglomerate doesn't fix the PDF toolchain problem yet, but that's a separate issue. It also uses the 4.1.2 DocBook/XML DTD by default, but that may be a very minor issue -- and if not, adding 4.2 functionality may make it such. It's plugin-extensible just as jEdit is, so that may change Some Day. I'm not against jEdit in the least; it looks fantastic. It's not a tool, though, for people who aren't into writing code. Let's keep in mind that if we're trying to simplify life, that doesn't mean changing one learning curve for another similar one. By all means, if someone wants to write pieces for the Documentation Guide for either of these tools, please do so. As we mentioned in the FDSCo meeting, the idea is to lower as many barriers as possible. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Apr 20 15:49:44 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:49:44 -0500 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1114010090.4587.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> <1114010090.4587.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050420104944.009d8121.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > I looked at both jEdit and Conglomerate this morning for the first time. > Initial impressions are that both are very full featured. IMHO > Conglomerate has the edge for a few reasons: I retried conglomerate again this morning, too. It crashed on the very first file I tried to open. Not ready for prime time, IMHO. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Apr 20 15:50:30 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:50:30 -0500 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050420105030.733f92ba.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Rahul Sundaram , spake thus: > Anyone tried compiling this with GCJ. If that works it can pushed into > Fedora Extras. The Free Java stack seems to be maturing now. Hmm... I can try this and let you know. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Apr 20 15:56:08 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:26:08 +0530 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <20050420105030.733f92ba.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> <20050420105030.733f92ba.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <42667B98.1060902@redhat.com> Tommy Reynolds wrote: >Uttered Rahul Sundaram , spake thus: > > > >>Anyone tried compiling this with GCJ. If that works it can pushed into >>Fedora Extras. The Free Java stack seems to be maturing now. >> >> > >Hmm... I can try this and let you know. > >Cheers > > Great but you need to running rawhide to get a realistic estimate. You can subscribe to the fedora-java-devel list and ask for help even though it might be slightly off topic there regards Rahul From dmalcolm at redhat.com Wed Apr 20 15:58:01 2005 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:58:01 -0400 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <44102.193.195.148.66.1114002661.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <57387.193.195.148.66.1113987119.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113994190.4771.13.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <65124.193.195.148.66.1113994619.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113997596.5473.6.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <44102.193.195.148.66.1114002661.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1114012682.24455.26.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 14:11 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > > I installed cvs and ran those commands, but I'm not sure what it's > > done... > > > >> I really recommend Emacs with nxml-mode: > >> > >> http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-emacs-nxml.html > > Okay, I'll try that as well... > > > > I got this far: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation- > > guide/s1-emacs-cedfile.html > > > > It says: > > "Find the parent file for the group of DocBook files." But use of the > > term *the* in reference to a group of DocBook files is confusing. Am I > > supposed to already have some DocBook file? I'm quite lost now. > > The parent file means the file that has the docbook declaration at the > top, like: > > "http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/docbookx.dtd" [ > > The reason it says parent, is that, like the Documentation guide, you can > split up a huge doc into smaller section/chapters to be managed better, > but there is only one parent with the above declaration in it. > > > > > I assume the reason that Conglomerate was easy to get up and running is > > because this guide is to make emacs compliant with the doc project and > > anything i make with conglomerate (without extra configurations) would > > be invalid for this project - is that about right? > > It would be ok, but we do not not what delcaration it uses or how it tags > pu some things. Conglomerate (in theory) should allow you to edit any well-formed XML document, and I've been focusing on DocBook support. Unfortunately I say "in theory" because it's still fairly unstable and I don't get much time to hack on it these days :-( (New coders most welcome!) If there's anything Conglomerate needs to do to help the Fedora docs project (besides becoming more stable), please file "enhancement" bugs against it in bugzilla.gnome.org. > > It for uniform editing basically. > I don't know what you mean by this From dmalcolm at redhat.com Wed Apr 20 15:59:52 2005 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:59:52 -0400 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1114010090.4587.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> <1114010090.4587.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114012793.24455.29.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 11:14 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 20:20 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > > > >The tool I use is jEdit from http://www.jedit.org because it doesn't > > >need all that finicky setup and DTD rebuilding that emacs does; it > > >just works out-of-the-box. You still get syntax coloring, tag > > >completion, a context-sensitive tag display, and even spell checking > > >for your XML document. > > > > Anyone tried compiling this with GCJ. If that works it can pushed into > > Fedora Extras. The Free Java stack seems to be maturing now > > I looked at both jEdit and Conglomerate this morning for the first time. > Initial impressions are that both are very full featured. IMHO > Conglomerate has the edge for a few reasons: > > 1. Much smaller set of requirements (check "rpm -qR") > 2. More adherent to the set of common Fedora HIG (less cluttered > interface) > 3. Conglomerate is more of a WYSIWYM (*M="Mean") tool > > Conglomerate doesn't fix the PDF toolchain problem yet, but that's a > separate issue. It also uses the 4.1.2 DocBook/XML DTD by default, but > that may be a very minor issue -- and if not, adding 4.2 functionality > may make it such. It's plugin-extensible just as jEdit is, so that may > change Some Day. I'm not against jEdit in the least; it looks > fantastic. It's not a tool, though, for people who aren't into writing > code. Let's keep in mind that if we're trying to simplify life, that > doesn't mean changing one learning curve for another similar one. As I just said in another email, please file enhancement requests in bugzilla.gnome.org against Conglomerate; some of these are already in there IIRC. > > By all means, if someone wants to write pieces for the Documentation > Guide for either of these tools, please do so. As we mentioned in the > FDSCo meeting, the idea is to lower as many barriers as possible. > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From dmalcolm at redhat.com Wed Apr 20 16:03:51 2005 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:03:51 -0400 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <20050420104944.009d8121.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> <1114010090.4587.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050420104944.009d8121.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1114013031.24455.34.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 10:49 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > I looked at both jEdit and Conglomerate this morning for the first time. > > Initial impressions are that both are very full featured. IMHO > > Conglomerate has the edge for a few reasons: > > I retried conglomerate again this morning, too. It crashed on the very > first file I tried to open. Not ready for prime time, IMHO. Agreed. I don't get much time to hack on Conglomerate these days, alas. If you're a coder, it would be great if you could join us (see http://www.conglomerate.org ) Please can you file bugs in bugzilla.gnome.org against Conglomerate for crashes that occur. Please try to isolate a minimal test document that causes the crash, and attach that to any bugs you file; this is invaluable when tracking down this kind of thing (backtraces are great as well, assuming you have the debuginfo package installed) Dave From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Apr 20 16:08:01 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:08:01 -0500 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <42667B98.1060902@redhat.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> <20050420105030.733f92ba.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42667B98.1060902@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050420110801.21482b2a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Rahul Sundaram , spake thus: > Great but you need to running rawhide to get a realistic estimate. You > can subscribe to the fedora-java-devel list and ask for help even though > it might be slightly off topic there. Thanks. My first compile failed miserably, but I'm running FC3 so I'm not as bleeding edge as I could be. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 16:20:43 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:20:43 -0400 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <20050420104944.009d8121.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> <1114010090.4587.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050420104944.009d8121.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1114014043.4587.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 10:49 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > I looked at both jEdit and Conglomerate this morning for the first time. > > Initial impressions are that both are very full featured. IMHO > > Conglomerate has the edge for a few reasons: > > I retried conglomerate again this morning, too. It crashed on the very > first file I tried to open. Not ready for prime time, IMHO. I had only tried creating a few files, which seemed to work fine for the limited amount of time I ran it. I tried opening a few existing FDP docs, in particular the Documentation Guide, and got some very strange results. I don't know if the differing DTD was the cause, but I kind of doubt it. Eventually, yes, it crashed for me too. :-) But that doesn't change the gist of what I was saying, which is that simply telling a newbie to choose a different editor may not be the right answer. That still requires them to learn DocBook anyway, which takes much longer than learning the four or five Emacs keybindings that are the most useful for XML editing. Plus, if you require them to have Java/gcj, for instance, you've just *drastically* increased the workload on that person just to get set up to write, especially if they are not writing on a FC4 system, for example. Many people will use an older system for personal use. I think that, given its interface and program design, Conglomerate is going to end up -- at some point, hopefully sooner rather than later -- being the right tool for this job. But again, whatever tool experienced persons want to use, more power to them. It's all about getting the work done. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 16:22:21 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:22:21 -0400 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1114013031.24455.34.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> <1114010090.4587.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050420104944.009d8121.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1114013031.24455.34.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1114014141.4587.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 12:03 -0400, David Malcolm wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 10:49 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > > > I looked at both jEdit and Conglomerate this morning for the first time. > > > Initial impressions are that both are very full featured. IMHO > > > Conglomerate has the edge for a few reasons: > > > > I retried conglomerate again this morning, too. It crashed on the very > > first file I tried to open. Not ready for prime time, IMHO. > > Agreed. I don't get much time to hack on Conglomerate these days, > alas. If you're a coder, it would be great if you could join us (see > http://www.conglomerate.org ) > > Please can you file bugs in bugzilla.gnome.org against Conglomerate for > crashes that occur. Please try to isolate a minimal test document that > causes the crash, and attach that to any bugs you file; this is > invaluable when tracking down this kind of thing (backtraces are great > as well, assuming you have the debuginfo package installed) Dave, If you can suggest it to any of the active developers, perhaps the contents of the FDP CVS would be a good place to get test documents. I think we validate all of them before publication, although we use the DocBook/XML 4.2 DTD. (Maybe that would be a good RFE for me to file in Bugzilla -- adding a 4.2 option in some reasonable fashion.) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Wed Apr 20 16:48:37 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:48:37 +0100 Subject: Man page format to Docbook XML for New Authors In-Reply-To: <20050420092807.679f6a37.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <55542.193.195.148.66.1113985242.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <20050420092807.679f6a37.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1114015717.30090.232329607@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:28:07 -0500, "Tommy Reynolds" said: > Maybe a small DTD for an HTML-like subset; > there are stylesheets out there already to transform HTML into XSL-FO > but we'd need to keep anybody from being really clever and to keep it > simple. We may actually have a pretty good subset that could be declared a standard... The Documentation Guide describes common tags, and thinking about it I haven't needed to use any other DocBook tags than those, barring document headers. -- Stuart Ellis From dmalcolm at redhat.com Wed Apr 20 16:58:41 2005 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:58:41 -0400 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1114014141.4587.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> <1114010090.4587.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050420104944.009d8121.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1114013031.24455.34.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1114014141.4587.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114016321.24455.37.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 12:22 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 12:03 -0400, David Malcolm wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 10:49 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > > > > > I looked at both jEdit and Conglomerate this morning for the first time. > > > > Initial impressions are that both are very full featured. IMHO > > > > Conglomerate has the edge for a few reasons: > > > > > > I retried conglomerate again this morning, too. It crashed on the very > > > first file I tried to open. Not ready for prime time, IMHO. > > > > Agreed. I don't get much time to hack on Conglomerate these days, > > alas. If you're a coder, it would be great if you could join us (see > > http://www.conglomerate.org ) > > > > Please can you file bugs in bugzilla.gnome.org against Conglomerate for > > crashes that occur. Please try to isolate a minimal test document that > > causes the crash, and attach that to any bugs you file; this is > > invaluable when tracking down this kind of thing (backtraces are great > > as well, assuming you have the debuginfo package installed) > > Dave, > > If you can suggest it to any of the active developers, perhaps the > contents of the FDP CVS would be a good place to get test documents. I Interesting idea, it's always useful to have a good source of real-work test cases (Conglomerate has a built-in random DocBook generator, which is useful for stress-testing). What I was really after was a specific bug report about a specific crash, though. > think we validate all of them before publication, although we use the > DocBook/XML 4.2 DTD. (Maybe that would be a good RFE for me to file in > Bugzilla -- adding a 4.2 option in some reasonable fashion.) Yes, please file this. Dave From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 20 17:45:09 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:45:09 +0100 Subject: Fwd: FYI: Choosing an XML Editor Message-ID: <200504201845.10649.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: FYI: Choosing an XML Editor Date: Wednesday 20 Apr 2005 17:25 From: Saqib Ali To: "discuss at en.tldp.org" , docbook at en.tldp.org A review of XML editors has just been published by the Arts and Humanities Data Service. Please see http://www.xml-dev.com/blog/index.php#121 for info ______________________ http://lists.tldp.org/ ------------------------------------------------------- -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 20:47:08 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:47:08 -0400 Subject: Fwd: FYI: Choosing an XML Editor In-Reply-To: <200504201845.10649.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> References: <200504201845.10649.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1114030028.4743.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 18:45 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > Subject: FYI: Choosing an XML Editor > Date: Wednesday 20 Apr 2005 17:25 > From: Saqib Ali > To: "discuss at en.tldp.org" , docbook at en.tldp.org > > A review of XML editors has just been published by the Arts and > Humanities Data Service. > Please see http://www.xml-dev.com/blog/index.php#121 for info Excellent! A much better article than the standard "Well, here's what I like, so this package is great and the rest aren't." The criteria are clearly laid out, although it would have been good to see what standard differentiated the ratings for each element considered. I notice that, of the free tools, Emacs (and to a slightly lesser extent, jEdit) kicked butt in features, while for usability, OpenOffice.org (!) blew the doors off just about every other package. The perception of barriers has a lot to do with overarching usability factors. I remember bringing up the idea of trying to better the OpenOffice.org DocBook/XML features, but it's a pretty steep learning curve to participate in that arena. Maybe if we could get the attention of some of the XML project developers, they would be willing to at least hear us out for what we need. I haven't tried the FC3.91 (FC4test2) version of OO.o, so I'm not sure what XML improvements they've made. I'm installing right now in a VMware guest to see how it looks. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 From mjohnson at redhat.com Wed Apr 20 22:36:49 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:36:49 -0400 Subject: Fwd: FYI: Choosing an XML Editor In-Reply-To: <1114030028.4743.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200504201845.10649.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> <1114030028.4743.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4266D981.7030703@redhat.com> Here's another resource for XML editors. It was posted to the TEI list. HTH, Mark ======================================================================= AHDS Literature, Languages and Linguistics has recently published a new Information Paper on XML editors. http://ahds.ac.uk/creating/information-papers/xml-editors/ With a large number of XML editors now available, this Information Paper serves as an introduction to the different features XML editors can have and the extent to which these features are implemented. It also presents the result of an evaluation exercise where different user groups tried a number of the editors. The article is based on a study by Thijs van den Broek, Benchmarking XML editors, undertaken in 2004. The evaluation includes results of the survey van den Broek undertook via the TEI website. AHDS Literature, Languages and Linguistics is hosted by the Oxford Text Archive. Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 18:45 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > >>Subject: FYI: Choosing an XML Editor >>Date: Wednesday 20 Apr 2005 17:25 >>From: Saqib Ali >>To: "discuss at en.tldp.org" , docbook at en.tldp.org >> >>A review of XML editors has just been published by the Arts and >>Humanities Data Service. >>Please see http://www.xml-dev.com/blog/index.php#121 for info > > > Excellent! A much better article than the standard "Well, here's what I > like, so this package is great and the rest aren't." The criteria are > clearly laid out, although it would have been good to see what standard > differentiated the ratings for each element considered. > > I notice that, of the free tools, Emacs (and to a slightly lesser > extent, jEdit) kicked butt in features, while for usability, > OpenOffice.org (!) blew the doors off just about every other package. > > The perception of barriers has a lot to do with overarching usability > factors. I remember bringing up the idea of trying to better the > OpenOffice.org DocBook/XML features, but it's a pretty steep learning > curve to participate in that arena. Maybe if we could get the attention > of some of the XML project developers, they would be willing to at least > hear us out for what we need. I haven't tried the FC3.91 (FC4test2) > version of OO.o, so I'm not sure what XML improvements they've made. > I'm installing right now in a VMware guest to see how it looks. > -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Apr 21 00:30:11 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:30:11 +1000 Subject: Man page format to Docbook XML for New Authors In-Reply-To: <426614F8.9090708@redhat.com> References: <55542.193.195.148.66.1113985242.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1113986069.18710.232292992@webmail.messagingengine.com> <426614F8.9090708@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1114043411.3900.33.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 14:08 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Unfortunately the slides for the presentation he made in FUDCon is > not > available in the Fedora wiki and the voice in the relevant video is > not > very comprehensable to me. I guess we will have to just ask him He had no slides; he typically gives talks off the cuff -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 04:45:43 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:15:43 +0530 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1114016321.24455.37.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> <1114010090.4587.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050420104944.009d8121.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1114013031.24455.34.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1114014141.4587.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114016321.24455.37.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <42672FF7.7040904@redhat.com> Hi >>Dave, >> >>If you can suggest it to any of the active developers, perhaps the >>contents of the FDP CVS would be a good place to get test documents. I >> >> > >Interesting idea, it's always useful to have a good source of real-work >test cases (Conglomerate has a built-in random DocBook generator, which >is useful for stress-testing). > cvs.tldp.org has a whole lot of Docbook files too regards Rahul From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Thu Apr 21 05:08:09 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:38:09 +0530 Subject: why o why Message-ID: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> Hi List, I was wondering why this documentation submition process is overly complex...why don t we we use some wiki like tikiwiki or media wiki (of webopedia fame) to manage documents ...why I am required to submit docs in docbook xml format ....and check into cvs ....then built it .....,most wiki system have have built in work flow, revision mechanism, doc conversion to pdf and tons of other stuff etc ...........what is the requirement or need for such complexity ... Regards, Gaurav From ivazquez at ivazquez.net Thu Apr 21 05:39:39 2005 From: ivazquez at ivazquez.net (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 01:39:39 -0400 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <1114061979.13656.113.camel@ignacio.ignacio.lan> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 10:38 +0530, gaurav wrote: > I was wondering why this documentation submition process is > overly complex...why don t we we use some wiki like tikiwiki or media > wiki (of webopedia fame) to manage documents ...why I am required to > submit docs in docbook xml format ....and check into cvs ....then built > it .....,most wiki system have have built in work flow, revision > mechanism, doc conversion to pdf and tons of other stuff etc > ...........what is the requirement or need for such complexity ... Because it's easier to find/create a reliable DocBook-to-Wiki converter than it is to find/create a reliable Wiki-to-DocBook converter? -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams http://fedora.ivazquez.net/ gpg --keyserver hkp://subkeys.pgp.net --recv-key 38028b72 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 05:44:07 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:14:07 +0530 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> Hi gaurav wrote: > Hi List, > I was wondering why this documentation submition process is > overly complex...why don t we we use some wiki like tikiwiki or media > wiki (of webopedia fame) to manage documents ...why I am required to > submit docs in docbook xml format ....and check into cvs ....then > built it .....,most wiki system have have built in work flow, revision > mechanism, doc conversion to pdf and tons of other stuff etc > ...........what is the requirement or need for such complexity ... > > Regards, > Gaurav You dont have to convert into Docbook. If you have the content and find it hard to convert it to Docbook, someone else can do it for you. Having the source content in Docbook helps in keeping the content and presentation segregated. It also makes it easier to convert into HTML, PDF or other common formats CVS revision mechanism is useful for the same reasons that its useful for any software project ie. to keep track of changes. regards Rahul From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Thu Apr 21 05:59:26 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:29:26 +0530 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> Hi, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > gaurav wrote: > >> Hi List, >> I was wondering why this documentation submition process >> is overly complex...why don t we we use some wiki like tikiwiki or >> media wiki (of webopedia fame) to manage documents ...why I am >> required to submit docs in docbook xml format ....and check into cvs >> ....then built it .....,most wiki system have have built in work >> flow, revision mechanism, doc conversion to pdf and tons of other >> stuff etc ...........what is the requirement or need for such >> complexity ... >> >> Regards, >> Gaurav > > > > You dont have to convert into Docbook. If you have the content and > find it hard to convert it to Docbook, someone else can do it for you. I use OO docbook export plugin to convert my docs to DocBook .....so I can do this part myself > Having the source content in Docbook helps in keeping the content and > presentation segregated. It also makes it easier to convert into > HTML, PDF or other common formats > > CVS revision mechanism is useful for the same reasons that its useful > for any software project ie. to keep track of changes. You can easily track changes with wiki , implement workflow and change history ...revert the changes, discuss changes ..edit document online, resolve conflicts and yes its possible to export wiki into docbook format do lot dynamic stuff with content ... (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/DocBook_XML_export) ... I think wiki have evolved to be better documentation lifecycle management tool than doing stuff manually I guess present process more of buerocratic process :-) ... I wish it can simplified > > regards > Rahul > > From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 06:49:06 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:19:06 +0530 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> Hi > > You can easily track changes with wiki , implement workflow and change > history ...revert the changes, discuss changes ..edit document > online, resolve conflicts and yes its possible to export wiki into > docbook format do lot dynamic stuff with content ... > (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/DocBook_XML_export) ... I suspect that learning how a wiki system manages all this would have a similar learning curve to using CVS and Docbook. We really should be more worried about getting suitable content rather than refining the submission process now. If you are using OO.o and can manage to get your the document submitted using whatever methods that is followed currently we can look into other options to improve the whole process using wiki, better GUI tools like conglomerate and so on. Just my opinion regards Rahul From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Thu Apr 21 07:13:18 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:43:18 +0530 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com><4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4267528E.60508@hclcomnet.co.in> Hi, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > >> >> You can easily track changes with wiki , implement workflow and >> change history ...revert the changes, discuss changes ..edit >> document online, resolve conflicts and yes its possible to export >> wiki into docbook format do lot dynamic stuff with content ... >> (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/DocBook_XML_export) ... > > > > I suspect that learning how a wiki system manages all this would have > a similar learning curve to using CVS and Docbook. From my past experience using wiki is lot more simpler (once setup...and access, workflow defined) than manually check docs into cvs and running a xml parser to covert it and follow this cycle over and over again every time when changes are required in document > We really should be more worried about getting suitable content rather > than refining the submission process now. Even though I am programmer I would prefer (i guess same holds true for majority) to work my code and use a user friendly tool so that I spend minimum time on documentatation and managing content , Improving submission and document life cycle management system will probability of more document submits and improving quality thru automated workflows ao edit release cycle > If you are using OO.o and can manage to get your the document > submitted using whatever methods that is followed currently we can > look into other options to improve the whole process using wiki, > better GUI tools like conglomerate and so on. I agree with you .....we can look at wekipedia project...biggest documentation project ever ....their process and how they manage content quality and life cycle management ...... If we want to stick around XML then open office XML format is good too .....its become as standard accepted by OASIS to store documents http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office though I prefer wiki or CMS tool .....Just my opinion too :-) > Just my opinion > > regards > Rahul > From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 07:25:36 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:55:36 +0530 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <4267528E.60508@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com><4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.60508@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <42675570.2080100@redhat.com> Hi > > Even though I am programmer I would prefer (i guess same holds true > for majority) to work my code and use a user friendly tool so that I > spend minimum time on documentatation and managing content , > Improving submission and document life cycle management system will > probability of more document submits and improving quality thru > automated workflows ao edit release cycle I am not telling you that your ideas are not useful. on the contrary we have a whole lot of suggestions on how to improve the process and deciding on a good one is probably a long term thing. I am asking you to please bear with it and get your document submitted which is more useful in the short term. We should also discuss at this point whether we want to document proprietary software as part of the Fedora project which is exclusively open source. This seems a contradictory outlook to me regards Rahul From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Thu Apr 21 07:44:18 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:14:18 +0530 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <42675570.2080100@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.60508@hclcomnet.co.in> <42675570.2080100@redhat.com> Message-ID: <426759D2.7050407@hclcomnet.co.in> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > >> >> Even though I am programmer I would prefer (i guess same holds true >> for majority) to work my code and use a user friendly tool so that I >> spend minimum time on documentatation and managing content , >> Improving submission and document life cycle management system will >> probability of more document submits and improving quality thru >> automated workflows ao edit release cycle > > > > I am not telling you that your ideas are not useful. on the contrary > we have a whole lot of suggestions on how to improve the process and > deciding on a good one is probably a long term thing. I am not looking for short term solution either ......I know any process improvement usually takes lot of time ..so its feasible in relatively longterm ...but realization that there is scope for improvement or alternatives present can help in change ...which can start from healthy discussion in community :-) I am ready volunteer for wiki or cms implementation or conversion/migration utility to export current docbook docs to wiki format/ db > I am asking you to please bear with it and get your document submitted > which is more useful in the short term. I have already submitted my document around month back and buts its not just abt my doc ...I want to discuss /explore what merits of present system and if there any better alternative exist > We should also discuss at this point whether we want to document > proprietary software as part of the Fedora project which is > exclusively open source. if it helps/increases fedora acceptability in enterprise/data center than ...yes !! > This seems a contradictory outlook to me > > regards > Rahul > From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 07:49:25 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:19:25 +0530 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <426759D2.7050407@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.60508@hclcomnet.co.in> <42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> Hi > >> We should also discuss at this point whether we want to document >> proprietary software as part of the Fedora project which is >> exclusively open source. > > > if it helps/increases fedora acceptability in enterprise/data center > than ...yes !! Shipping all sorts of proprietary software can also be used a means of increasing "enterprise" viablity. This discussion is more involved than that regards Rahul From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Thu Apr 21 08:01:40 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:31:40 +0530 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in> <42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclcomnet.co.in> <42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co.in> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > >> >>> We should also discuss at this point whether we want to document >>> proprietary software as part of the Fedora project which is >>> exclusively open source. >> >> >> >> if it helps/increases fedora acceptability in enterprise/data >> center than ...yes !! > > > > Shipping all sorts of proprietary software can also be used a means > of increasing "enterprise" viablity. This discussion is more > involved than that > Yes like RHEL But I am talking about *supporting it* or enabling it ...... not *Shipping it* so at least users with existing setup can use if they want or choose ...like porting a distributation to other *proprietary* platforms btw don't you feel this is off topic to my original post :-) > regards > Rahul > From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 08:14:12 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:44:12 +0530 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in> <42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclcomnet.co.in> <42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> Hi >>> >>> >>> if it helps/increases fedora acceptability in enterprise/data >>> center than ...yes !! >> >> >> >> >> Shipping all sorts of proprietary software can also be used a means >> of increasing "enterprise" viablity. This discussion is more >> involved than that >> > Yes like RHEL RHEL doesnt ship any proprietary software either. Fedora project doesnt target any enterprises or data centers so the point is moot anyway regards Rahul From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Thu Apr 21 09:00:14 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:30:14 +0530 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclc om net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co.in> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > >>>> >>>> >>>> if it helps/increases fedora acceptability in enterprise/data >>>> center than ...yes !! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Shipping all sorts of proprietary software can also be used a means >>> of increasing "enterprise" viablity. This discussion is more >>> involved than that >>> >> Yes like RHEL > > > RHEL doesnt ship any proprietary software either. says who ...they ship sun jdk and proprietary nvidea drivers https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2004-February/msg01368.html Red Hat clearly possesses exclusive legal rights to Red Hat Enterprise Linux, namely the exclusive legal right to distribute RHEL in binary form, and most importantly, the accompanying exclusive legal right to pass along the ISV certifications associated with the RHEL binary distribution. Red Hat uses a legal vehicle, a cleverly crafted license it calls a subscription agreement, to enable it to possess these exclusive legal rights in a product that can continue to be marketed as open source. I an NOT talking about shipping some propreitry software .....I am referring to supporting ...so please dont mis quote me or be more off topic !! > Fedora project doesnt target any enterprises or data centers so the > point is moot anyway "The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to build a *complete, general purpose* operating system" "Complete" which means fedora can be used in any enviorment that includes data center or enterprises... many people companies specially ISP run on fedora in their data center .... I guess redhat does not treats fedora as lab rat for upcoming rhel solely > > regards > Rahul > > From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 09:19:08 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:49:08 +0530 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclc om net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co.in> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <4267700C.5080408@redhat.com> Hi > > Red Hat clearly possesses exclusive legal rights to Red Hat Enterprise > Linux, namely the exclusive legal right to distribute RHEL in binary > form, and most importantly, the accompanying exclusive legal right to > pass along the ISV certifications associated with the RHEL binary > distribution. Red Hat uses a legal vehicle, a cleverly crafted license > it calls a subscription agreement, to enable it to possess these > exclusive legal rights in a product that can continue to be marketed > as open source. Quoting Ian from Progeny doesnt mean anything here. Trademark guidelines are established for many other open source projects including Mozilla and Apache. Red Hat merely asks you not to distribute any products under its name. > > > I an NOT talking about shipping some propreitry software .....I am > referring to supporting ...so please dont mis quote me or be more off > topic !! I am talking about documenting proprietary software as part of a project which supports open source software exclusively. I havent misquoted you at all and whether proprietary software should be documented as part of the Fedora docs project is not a off topic discussion. > > "The goal of The Fedora Project > is to work > with the Linux community to build a *complete, general purpose* > operating system" > > "Complete" which means fedora can be used in any enviorment that > includes data center or enterprises... many people companies > specially ISP run on fedora in their data center .... You missed out the part about being "exclusively free software" http://fedora.redhat.com/about/ " The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from open source software." "I guess redhat does not treats fedora as lab rat for upcoming rhel solely " straw man argument since RHEL documentation doesnt cover proprietary software either regards Rahul From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Thu Apr 21 11:58:11 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:28:11 +0530 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <4267700C.5080408@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com><42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co. in> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com><42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267700C.5080408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > >> >> Red Hat clearly possesses exclusive legal rights to Red Hat >> Enterprise Linux, namely the exclusive legal right to distribute RHEL >> in binary form, and most importantly, the accompanying exclusive >> legal right to pass along the ISV certifications associated with the >> RHEL binary distribution. Red Hat uses a legal vehicle, a cleverly >> crafted license it calls a subscription agreement, to enable it to >> possess these exclusive legal rights in a product that can continue >> to be marketed as open source. > > > Quoting Ian from Progeny doesnt mean anything here. Trademark > guidelines are established for many other open source projects > including Mozilla and Apache. Red Hat merely asks you not to > distribute any products under its name. yes it does mean lot of things and pl dont confuse Mozilla or apache license as thats lots original work and you dont have to pay to get patches on time and ISV certification ......as with redhat's > >> >> >> I an NOT talking about shipping some propreitry software .....I am >> referring to supporting ...so please dont mis quote me or be more off >> topic !! > > > I am talking about documenting proprietary software as part of a > project which supports open source software exclusively. I havent > misquoted you at all and whether proprietary software should be > documented as part of the Fedora docs project is not a off topic > discussion. > As far I rememeber orginal discussion was about alternative to current documenation system specially referring to to submission process >> >> "The goal of The Fedora Project >> is to work >> with the Linux community to build a *complete, general purpose* >> operating system" >> >> "Complete" which means fedora can be used in any enviorment that >> includes data center or enterprises... many people companies >> specially ISP run on fedora in their data center .... > > > > You missed out the part about being "exclusively free software" > > http://fedora.redhat.com/about/ > > " The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community > to build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from > open source software." > > "I guess redhat does not treats fedora as lab rat for upcoming rhel > solely " > > straw man argument since RHEL documentation doesnt cover proprietary > software either check this http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/csgfs/oracle-guide/s1-ora-nodes.html ps : When did you join Redhat ? Congratulations :-) > > > regards > Rahul > From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 12:07:10 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:37:10 +0530 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com><42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co. in> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com><42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267700C.5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <4267976E.3080801@redhat.com> Hi > > yes it does mean lot of things and pl dont confuse Mozilla or apache > license as thats lots original work and you dont have to pay to get > patches on time and ISV certification ......as with redhat's If you modify Firefox or Apache you will have to use a different name inorder to not conflict with their trademarks. Trademarks are a mark of quality and if you dont protect your trademark you will lose it. If you want just the product feel free to download one of the clones. RHEL is a software subscription > As far I rememeber orginal discussion was about alternative to > current documenation system specially referring to to submission > process and your document covers a proprietary system which might in contradiction of the Fedora project goals which was my whole point. Rest of the things might very well be irrelevant to this regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 12:14:09 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:44:09 +0530 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com><42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co. in> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com><42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267700C.5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> Hi >> http://fedora.redhat.com/about/ >> >> " The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community >> to build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively >> from open source software." >> >> "I guess redhat does not treats fedora as lab rat for upcoming rhel >> solely " >> >> straw man argument since RHEL documentation doesnt cover proprietary >> software either > > > check this > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/csgfs/oracle-guide/s1-ora-nodes.html An oversight in my part. Neverthless this is not the same as Fedora Projects goals or your document about deployment of Oracle "ps : When did you join Redhat ? Congratulations :-) " Right about the time you called my responses useless :-). Thank you regards Rahul From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Thu Apr 21 13:38:33 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:08:33 +0530 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com><42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com><42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > >>> http://fedora.redhat.com/about/ >>> >>> " The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community >>> to build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively >>> from open source software." >>> >>> "I guess redhat does not treats fedora as lab rat for upcoming rhel >>> solely " >>> >>> straw man argument since RHEL documentation doesnt cover proprietary >>> software either >> >> >> >> check this >> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/csgfs/oracle-guide/s1-ora-nodes.html > > > > An oversight in my part. Neverthless this is not the same as Fedora > Projects goals or your document about deployment of Oracle > Whats wrong On Document for deployment of Oracle on fedora or RHEL (my document hold valid for any rh distro with gcc greater than 2.8) ......or other stuff like webshpere, weblogic along with Postgresql, Mysql and Jboss ...if its not documented ...Oracle documentation on Redhat is ok but not fedora ?? ...Or people who use fedora don t use Oracle ....Isnt it ironical that most oracle installation on Linux are on Redhat today ?? ... Even tldp and freebsd has lots of documents/howto regarding oracle/sap /db2 etc http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Oracle-7-HOWTO.html does that mean they are against open source ?? Doesnt it increases Linux acceptability I was merely suggesting at improving or simplifying present documentation process and this not about my oracle doc ( I have already submitted it to tdlp) .... I hope you realize this :-) > "ps : When did you join Redhat ? Congratulations :-) " > > Right about the time you called my responses useless :-). Thank you > > regards > Rahul > > > From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 13:47:56 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:17:56 +0530 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com><42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com><42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> Hi >> > Whats wrong On Document for deployment of Oracle on fedora or RHEL I am not claiming that its wrong but I would like a discussion (not just between us) before it gets accepted officially. So I am dropping off this conversation until others participate in it > > Even tldp and freebsd has lots of documents/howto regarding > oracle/sap /db2 etc > http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Oracle-7-HOWTO.html > > does that mean they are against open source ?? Doesnt it increases > Linux acceptability I was merely suggesting at improving or simplifying present documentation process and this not about my oracle doc ( I have already submitted it to tdlp) .... I hope you realize this :-) ---------- For your information I have been arguing that LDP move its documentation on non-free software to a seperate section or remove it altogether. You can find those extensive discussions aka flame wars archived in the LDP discuss list too. So atleast I am being consistent even if you dont agree with me. regards Rahu; From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Thu Apr 21 13:57:55 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:27:55 +0530 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com><42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.c o . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com><42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4 267 700C .5080408@redhat.com><42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com><4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4267B163.9060905@hclcomnet.co.in> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > >>> >> Whats wrong On Document for deployment of Oracle on fedora or RHEL > > > > I am not claiming that its wrong but I would like a discussion (not > just between us) before it gets accepted officially. So I am dropping > off this conversation until others participate in it > yawn.... I am feeling bit bored now :-) > > > > > For your information I have been arguing that LDP move its > documentation on non-free software to a seperate section or remove it > altogether. You can find those extensive discussions aka flame wars > archived in the LDP discuss list too. So atleast I am being > consistent even if you dont agree with me. > regards Then we should do the same for all Redhat Official Documentation ....remove any instances that mentions or involves documentation proprietary software on any of Redhat official distro > Rahu; > > > > From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 14:12:26 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:42:26 +0530 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <4267B163.9060905@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com><42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.c o . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com><42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4 267 700C .5080408@redhat.com><42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com><4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <4267B163.9060905@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <4267B4CA.3080604@redhat.com> Hi > > Then we should do the same for all Redhat Official Documentation > ....remove any instances that mentions or involves documentation > proprietary software on any of Redhat official distro Sorry but thats not your decision call. Fedora project is independant of RHEL in this context and has its own guidelines and rules. In fact if it wasnt different we might very well relicense all the RHEL document under GNU FDL and avoid a whole lot of pain. Yes such things sometimes work out badly but tying up different projects under the same rules artificially is not the solution regards Rahul From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Thu Apr 21 14:50:36 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:50:36 +0100 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com><42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com><42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1114095036.3099.232411352@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:17:56 +0530, "Rahul Sundaram" said: > Hi > > >> > > Whats wrong On Document for deployment of Oracle on fedora or RHEL > > > I am not claiming that its wrong but I would like a discussion (not just > between us) before it gets accepted officially. So I am dropping off > this conversation until others participate in it On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:17:56 +0530, "Rahul Sundaram" said: > Hi > > >> > > Whats wrong On Document for deployment of Oracle on fedora or RHEL > > > I am not claiming that its wrong but I would like a discussion (not just > between us) before it gets accepted officially. So I am dropping off > this conversation until others participate in it Thanks - this thread has probably gone too far to be useful. FWIW, I think that the general view has been that we cover software that is either in Core or Extras, so a document on installing a third-party product (Oracle/Mono/Whatever) may be out of scope, but I don't know if that is a hard-and-fast rule. I think the best thing to do is open a separate thread requesting clarification/discussion if this is still a live issue. -- Stuart Ellis From tfox at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 15:55:37 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:55:37 -0400 Subject: png2eps script Message-ID: <1114098937.5849.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi everyone, In anticipation of us getting PDF production to work, I've committed the script png2eps in a new scripts directory in the fedora-docs CVS module. It allows you to convert a PNG to EPS. To use: png2eps --width= .png If you don't specify a width in pixels, 4 is used by default, which is the maximum width I usually use for a US letter size PDF. If an EPS already exists in the same directory and you don't specify a width, it will use the width for the existing EPS file. Karsten, this is based on the one we use internally, but I modified it to produce color EPS files. Cheers, Tammy -- Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Thu Apr 21 16:04:33 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:04:33 -0500 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <1114099473.8aebb14561112@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting gaurav : > Hi List, Howdy. I just recently joined the list, since I'm doing the web/docs for the Fedora Legacy Project... > I was wondering why this documentation submition process is > overly complex... While I agree it is very complex, I also like it. I think it will produce commercial quality docs, if enough people participate. I think that is the goal of it. > why don t we we use some wiki like tikiwiki or media > wiki (of webopedia fame) to manage documents The best use of the wiki is to create the initial docs, which can be done with lots of colaboration and community input. At that point, the wiki doc can then be converted to DocBook, checked for accuracy and so on, and submitted. I think this would be the ultimate solution: multiple people help create the doc, someone then distills that into the proper format, the editors then verify it and make any corrections needed, and it is published meeting all the standards. > ...why I am required to > submit docs in docbook xml format ....and check into cvs ....then built > it ....., I think that someone is required to do this, not neccessarily you. You can always create a doc in some other way, and then find someone else to convert it to docbook and put it in cvs. > most wiki system have have built in work flow, revision > mechanism, doc conversion to pdf and tons of other stuff etc > ...........what is the requirement or need for such complexity ... That I can't answer. But, maybe I've suggested a way to work around the requirments and still participate? > Regards, > Gaurav > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > -- Eric Rostetter From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Thu Apr 21 16:09:13 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:09:13 -0500 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <1114099753.c1d066966eb99@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting gaurav : > Hi List, > I was wondering why this documentation submition process is > overly complex...why don t we we use some wiki like tikiwiki or media > wiki (of webopedia fame) to manage documents ...why I am required to > submit docs in docbook xml format ....and check into cvs ....then built > it .....,most wiki system have have built in work flow, revision > mechanism, doc conversion to pdf and tons of other stuff etc > ...........what is the requirement or need for such complexity ... > > Regards, > Gaurav I think, just as an addendum, that these types of requirements are not only why the Fedora Documentation Project will ultimately produce fine, proffessional docs, but also why there is a need for other sites like fedoranews.org for less formal documentation to live. Having said that, and my previous posting, maybe it would be good to discuss putting up a wiki for the FDP to use in creating docs, which someone would then convert to DocBook for submission... Just an idea, I've no real stake in it either way. -- Eric Rostetter From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Thu Apr 21 16:17:05 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:17:05 -0500 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1114100225.2864e5a615262@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Rahul Sundaram : > I suspect that learning how a wiki system manages all this would have a > similar learning curve to using CVS and Docbook. Yes, but it isn't really apples to apples. The wiki setup would promote more community participation in the docs. The current system promotes single author docs. So, the question becomes do we want to foster an environment of cooperative documentation writing, or of individual documentation writing? > We really should be > more worried about getting suitable content rather than refining the > submission process now. But the wiki may do just that, by allowing more people to participate. It does this, in part, by allowing people to each spend less time on the job, by working with others. > regards > Rahul -- Eric Rostetter From jkinz at kinz.org Thu Apr 21 16:50:03 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:50:03 -0400 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com>; from sundaram@redhat.com on Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 12:19:06PM +0530 References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 12:19:06PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > > > You can easily track changes with wiki , implement workflow and change > > history ...revert the changes, discuss changes ..edit document > > online, resolve conflicts and yes its possible to export wiki into > > docbook format do lot dynamic stuff with content ... > > (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/DocBook_XML_export) ... > > > I suspect that learning how a wiki system manages all this would have a > similar learning curve to using CVS and Docbook. We really should be I have to disagree, strongly. those learning efforts are different by at least an order of magnitude, possibly two. You cannot presume familiarity with either xml or docbook technology on the part of the contributors. (or even CVS). I've been using troff macros to produce docs for almost 20 years, so I'm not afraid of directly producing clumsy non-wysiwig formats like xml. However, the difference in scale of effort required to learn how to use a good wiki (like the one wikipedia is using), and the amount of effort required to learn the XML/Docbook/Fedora docbook template is vastly different. Speaking from personal experience: Wikipedia: picked up in less than 15 minutes. Fedora docs: Examined the guides, looked at all the documentation offered on the process. That documentation presumed prior knowledge on how to use xml and docbook without providing a pathway to same. Result: 20 min in wiki = finished submission of existing document 2 hrs in fedora docs - given up as too clumsy to be worth the effort to convert existing document. How to fix it/ Whats missing from fedora docs guide: No example of simple Fedora docbook document being created pointers to Fedora docbook templates and skeletons (please note - if these already exist, then they need to be better advertised) Often a worked thru example is worth more than 20 pages of "documentation" -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 17:19:35 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:19:35 -0700 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <1114100225.2864e5a615262@mail.ph.utexas.edu> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <1114100225.2864e5a615262@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <1114103975.6234.46.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 11:17 -0500, Eric Rostetter wrote: > Quoting Rahul Sundaram : > > > I suspect that learning how a wiki system manages all this would have a > > similar learning curve to using CVS and Docbook. > > Yes, but it isn't really apples to apples. > > The wiki setup would promote more community participation in the docs. > The current system promotes single author docs. > > So, the question becomes do we want to foster an environment of cooperative > documentation writing, or of individual documentation writing? Both. :) I don't think either system is exclusive of either method. Personally, I'd rather work collaboratively on a multiple-XML file document than with page locking in a Wiki enforced by a browser. Our processes need to address taking a doc from idea to publication a level higher than the specific tool used. > > We really should be > > more worried about getting suitable content rather than refining the > > submission process now. > > But the wiki may do just that, by allowing more people to participate. > It does this, in part, by allowing people to each spend less time on > the job, by working with others. Which is a valid point, but it brings us away from focusing on more content and back into focusing on tools and existing processes. We can certainly revise them iteratively, and in fact are working on that. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 17:22:33 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:22:33 -0700 Subject: Wiki is OK (was Re: why o why) In-Reply-To: <1114099753.c1d066966eb99@mail.ph.utexas.edu> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <1114099753.c1d066966eb99@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <1114104153.6234.50.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 11:09 -0500, Eric Rostetter wrote: > I think, just as an addendum, that these types of requirements are not > only why the Fedora Documentation Project will ultimately produce fine, > proffessional docs, but also why there is a need for other sites like > fedoranews.org for less formal documentation to live. +1 It's why we have the process around producing software packages. This project attempts to mimic the open source development process wherever possible. Some programs you write in Java and some in C. > Having said that, and my previous posting, maybe it would be good to > discuss putting up a wiki for the FDP to use in creating docs, which > someone would then convert to DocBook for submission... Just an idea, > I've no real stake in it either way. We will accept submissions in practically _any_ format. We will not accept something thrown over the wall _unless_ a maintainer steps forward. I'll start a new thread to make this clear. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Thu Apr 21 17:39:36 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:39:36 -0500 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com>< 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com><426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com><42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com><42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1114105176.39a1523501227@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Rahul Sundaram : > > Whats wrong On Document for deployment of Oracle on fedora or RHEL > > > I am not claiming that its wrong but I would like a discussion (not just > between us) before it gets accepted officially. So I am dropping off > this conversation until others participate in it I'd like to see it, but I'd like to see it in a separate section, so that people know that it documents something that is not a part of Fedora Core releases, but can be used with Fedora Core releases. So, I'd vote to have a separate section for non-Fedora Core included software. I don't care if the software is Open Source or not so much as I care that it is not part of the distribution, really. I'd consider it all "Third Party" software, whether open source or not. > For your information I have been arguing that LDP move its documentation > on non-free software to a seperate section or remove it altogether. You I agree on the separate section, at least for FDP, but not to remove it. If people want to write it, it is of high quality and usefulness, then allow it. But I'd like to make clear that it is separate from the FC distribution, hence the idea of a separate "Third Party Software" documentation section. -- Eric Rostetter From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Thu Apr 21 17:59:57 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:59:57 -0500 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1114106397.5ace1c6d61580@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Jeff Kinz : > > I suspect that learning how a wiki system manages all this would have a > > similar learning curve to using CVS and Docbook. We really should be > > I have to disagree, strongly. those learning efforts are different by at > least an order of magnitude, possibly two. You cannot presume > familiarity with either xml or docbook technology on the part of the > contributors. (or even CVS). Nor familiarity with wiki, or exporting/importing from/to wiki, etc. And you're not counting the time/effort to setup, manage, document, etc. the wiki system in the first place (for the project). > However, the difference in scale of effort required to learn how to use > a good wiki (like the one wikipedia is using), and the amount of effort > required to learn the XML/Docbook/Fedora docbook template is vastly > different. Speaking from personal experience: Yes. I had a much harder time learning to use a wiki than learning to use XML/DocBook. :) That doesn't mean your opposite experience is of no value. You and I just had different experiences. > Wikipedia: picked up in less than 15 minutes. I've been trying to learn to use wiki's for almost a year now and there is still more I don't know about them than there is that I do know about them (perhaps because I'm trying to use too many different wiki's, all of which lack sufficient documentation on how to use them effectively). > Fedora docs: Examined the guides, looked at all the documentation offered > on the process. That documentation presumed prior knowledge on how to > use xml and docbook without providing a pathway to same. That simply means the docs need to be improved, not that the process much be changed (although perhaps the process should be changed, but that is a separate issue). > Result: > 20 min in wiki = finished submission of existing document > 2 hrs in fedora docs - given up as too clumsy to be worth the > effort to convert existing document. I imagine that would be true for many. But for some of us (me), the opposite would be true also. That's really why I'd like to see both methods available (wiki for those who want it, with someone who will export from the wiki to DocBook for submission manually). > How to fix it/ Whats missing from fedora docs guide: > No example of simple Fedora docbook document being created > pointers to Fedora docbook templates and skeletons > (please note - if these already exist, then they need to be > better advertised) I agree. But this is simply a documentation issue, not a process issue. > Often a worked thru example is worth more than 20 pages of "documentation" A worked through example is documentation (whether 20 pages or not). -- Eric Rostetter From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 18:13:17 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:13:17 -0700 Subject: Linking to mp3 decoders In-Reply-To: <426753B3.40608@redhat.com> References: <426753B3.40608@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1114107197.6234.83.camel@erato.phig.org> (moving this discussion on-list for clarity) On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:48 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > I found this article on the Red Hat website which explicitly links to > mp3 decoders. http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_80mm.html. If this is > legally safe we might as well as bless fedorafaq(.org) as our official > one and point it in our release notes or even download the mp3 decoder > automatically from the net when the user tries to play an mp3 file. We > might to have get feedback from our legal department on this but I > thought I would let you know Word I got today was that we are OK to link to a site that discusses these issues, as that page does. We cannot link to a site that directly offers the questionable items for download. That could be "contributory infringement." So, we cannot necessarily use the content from FedoraFAQ as-is ourselves, but we can link to it, saying, "For information about using MP3s, this site discusses that." As long as they don't have direct links to packages that might contain infringing materials. Then we can't link to them. Clear as mud? We need to review how FedoraFAQ.org handles these items _before_ using them as a reference. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 18:24:30 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:24:30 -0700 Subject: documentation scope (Re: why o why [off topic]) In-Reply-To: <1114095036.3099.232411352@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> < 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <1114095036.3099.232411352@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1114107870.6234.91.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 15:50 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > FWIW, I think that the general view has been that we cover software that > is either in Core or Extras, so a document on installing a third-party > product (Oracle/Mono/Whatever) may be out of scope, but I don't know if > that is a hard-and-fast rule. I think the best thing to do is open a > separate thread requesting clarification/discussion if this is still a > live issue. +1 AFAIK, Enterprise Linux documentation only covers the free stuff. There are a very few non-free bits in RHEL. To document them would imply we support them. Regardless, this is not a moot[1] point, and it's off- topic. Just like the Fedora Project, we cover only free software. Our first priority is to software that is in Core or Extras. Stand-alone docs that cover software not in Core or Extras is fine. Docs covering a subject area that has several choices will cover the choices in Core or Extra primarily. Choices that are outside of the project are noted as not being "supported by Fedora". I know there are people in the community who use non-free software on Fedora. Our reason for not documenting this usage is related to why developers won't support a system running a tainted kernel. We send our readers into a risky situation. The risk is they are using unsupported pieces that will make it hard or impossible to get help in fixing anything that is broken. Not a pretty situation for a production system. - Karsten [1] The term "moot point" is often misused, I think many of us got it from a Jesse Jackson skit on SNL many years ago. A moot point is one that is open for debate and could be disproved. It is not a point that is no longer worth discussing. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 19:03:39 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:03:39 -0700 Subject: All formats Message-ID: <1114110219.6234.96.camel@erato.phig.org> Yes, we are working on fixing the Doc Guide and Quick Start Guide to be better. Let's keep that discussion separate. Same for the processes. First, our process for taking submissions and turning them into docs is entirely separate from the tool used to generate the docs. As a project, we are centered around DocBook and XML. I think this is the right thing to do, to have a single source for documentation that can generate _all_ formats. So, it should be our goal to move all _appropriate_ documentation into that format and work from there. Eventually. Because of the existence of tools such as DocBook Wiki, we may be able to author bi-directionally with a Wiki. Until that is in place, Wiki authoring is a one-time conversion to DocBook. We will take a new doc in any format. We will help to convert it to DocBook XML. All new documents _must_ have a maintainer who commits to keeping the doc up to date. That person doesn't have to be the original author. If you have a doc that is _already_ in a Wiki and an argument why it should stay there, let's consider it. If you can only write in {Wiki, HTML, plain text, RTF, troff, LaTeX}, then go ahead. After we convert it for you for maintenance, you can learn the DocBook. It's just not that hard. Really. And you can use vi, jedit, Conglomerate, or whatever you choose. You can even use Notepad under Windows, just don't come here complaining about getting the toolchain to work under Cygwin. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 19:11:14 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:11:14 -0700 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <1114105176.39a1523501227@mail.ph.utexas.edu> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> < 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <1114105176.39a1523501227@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <1114110674.6234.102.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:39 -0500, Eric Rostetter wrote: > Quoting Rahul Sundaram : > > > > Whats wrong On Document for deployment of Oracle on fedora or RHEL > > > > > > I am not claiming that its wrong but I would like a discussion (not just > > between us) before it gets accepted officially. So I am dropping off > > this conversation until others participate in it > > I'd like to see it, but I'd like to see it in a separate section, > so that people know that it documents something that is not a part > of Fedora Core releases, but can be used with Fedora Core releases. > > So, I'd vote to have a separate section for non-Fedora Core included > software. I don't care if the software is Open Source or not so much > as I care that it is not part of the distribution, really. I'd consider > it all "Third Party" software, whether open source or not. I think this is not a moot point. Fedora Project is about building a general purpose OS from free components. That includes the documentation. There are plenty of people dedicated to making non-free software work and documenting that. It's really not our purpose here. If we were a general-purpose Linux documentation project like, say, TLDP, then we could consider all cases of everything that runs under Linux. But we are a Fedora documentation project. Until Oracle is open source and shipping as part of Core or Extras, I don't think we can devote any more space to discussing or writing it. > > For your information I have been arguing that LDP move its documentation > > on non-free software to a seperate section or remove it altogether. You > > I agree on the separate section, at least for FDP, but not to remove it. > If people want to write it, it is of high quality and usefulness, then > allow it. But I'd like to make clear that it is separate from the > FC distribution, hence the idea of a separate "Third Party Software" > documentation section. When FC has a Third Party Software repository, we can document it. To be honest, we have enough work to do already without having to do Oracle, Nvidia et al's work for them. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Thu Apr 21 19:37:17 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:37:17 +0100 Subject: documentation scope (Re: why o why [off topic]) In-Reply-To: <1114107870.6234.91.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> < 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <1114095036.3099.232411352@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1114107870.6234.91.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114112238.8424.14.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 11:24 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Just like the Fedora Project, we cover only free software. Our first > priority is to software that is in Core or Extras. Stand-alone docs > that cover software not in Core or Extras is fine. Docs covering a > subject area that has several choices will cover the choices in Core or > Extra primarily. Choices that are outside of the project are noted as > not being "supported by Fedora". Do we have an existing document that could cover policy for scope/lifecycle of docs (what we accept, how we support it, process of obsoleting old work) ? These issues don't seem to neatly fit just Quick Start, Documentation or CVS Usage. From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 19:48:57 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:48:57 -0700 Subject: documentation scope (Re: why o why [off topic]) In-Reply-To: <1114112238.8424.14.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> < 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <1114095036.3099.232411352@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1114107870.6234.91.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114112238.8424.14.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <1114112937.6234.107.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 20:37 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 11:24 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Just like the Fedora Project, we cover only free software. Our first > > priority is to software that is in Core or Extras. Stand-alone docs > > that cover software not in Core or Extras is fine. Docs covering a > > subject area that has several choices will cover the choices in Core or > > Extra primarily. Choices that are outside of the project are noted as > > not being "supported by Fedora". > > Do we have an existing document that could cover policy for > scope/lifecycle of docs (what we accept, how we support it, process of > obsoleting old work) ? These issues don't seem to neatly fit just Quick > Start, Documentation or CVS Usage. I see this as the Documentation Guide. It is one of our few monolithic documents. It could contain everything about this project, process, lifecycle, workflow, how-to, what-is, etc. Making separate or joined documents is just about the same thing. Since it's already there, I'm in favor of adding to the Doc Guide as the canonical for All Things FDP. Deep linking into the Doc Guide allows us to point at specific sections. The Wiki page for MasterTasks is updated to reflect these ideas. Let's add more: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/MasterTasks Note that these are master tasks with some detail. Real RFE and bug tracking should be done using bugzilla, where conversations and actions can be archived. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkinz at kinz.org Thu Apr 21 20:26:01 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:26:01 -0400 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <1114106397.5ace1c6d61580@mail.ph.utexas.edu>; from rostetter@mail.utexas.edu on Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 12:59:57PM -0500 References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> <1114106397.5ace1c6d61580@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <20050421162601.A7268@redline.comcast.net> On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 12:59:57PM -0500, Eric Rostetter wrote: > Quoting Jeff Kinz : > > > > I suspect that learning how a wiki system manages all this would have a > > > similar learning curve to using CVS and Docbook. We really should be > > > > I have to disagree, strongly. those learning efforts are different by at > > least an order of magnitude, possibly two. You cannot presume > > familiarity with either xml or docbook technology on the part of the > > contributors. (or even CVS). > > Nor familiarity with wiki, or exporting/importing from/to wiki, etc. Correct, and wikimedia (used by wikipedia) doesn't presume anything. > And you're not counting the time/effort to setup, manage, document, > etc. the wiki system in the first place (for the project). Yes, very good. it would make no sense to count any of that since submitters would not need to know any of that. > > However, the difference in scale of effort required to learn how to use > > a good wiki (like the one wikipedia is using), and the amount of effort > > required to learn the XML/Docbook/Fedora docbook template is vastly > > different. Speaking from personal experience: > > Yes. I had a much harder time learning to use a wiki than learning > to use XML/DocBook. :) That doesn't mean your opposite experience is > of no value. You and I just had different experiences. I suspect vastly more people will find it much easier to pick up wiki than docbook. (However I am not proposing that we replace the current system with wiki, I was just pointing out what stopped me from adding a document) > > Wikipedia: picked up in less than 15 minutes. > > I've been trying to learn to use wiki's for almost a year now and there > is still more I don't know about them than there is that I do know about > them (perhaps because I'm trying to use too many different wiki's, all > of which lack sufficient documentation on how to use them effectively). Definitely stick to one. I recommends wikipedia. > > Fedora docs: Examined the guides, looked at all the documentation offered > > on the process. That documentation presumed prior knowledge on how to > > use xml and docbook without providing a pathway to same. > > That simply means the docs need to be improved, not that the process > much be changed Correct, That was my main issue. I would put up a small example of creating a very very small doc (two short paras, title, toc, list, and a link) > that is a separate issue). > > > Result: > > 20 min in wiki = finished submission of existing document > > 2 hrs in fedora docs - given up as too clumsy to be worth the > > effort to convert existing document. > > I imagine that would be true for many. But for some of us (me), the > opposite would be true also. > > That's really why I'd like to see both methods available (wiki for those > who want it, with someone who will export from the wiki to DocBook > for submission manually). Apparently you can submit a doc in just about any format you want. This policy was unknown to me (Something else to put into the FDOC Guide :) ) or I would have submitted my doc in html or text format. > > > How to fix it/ Whats missing from fedora docs guide: > > No example of simple Fedora docbook document being created > > pointers to Fedora docbook templates and skeletons > > (please note - if these already exist, then they need to be > > better advertised) > > I agree. But this is simply a documentation issue, not a process issue. Yup. -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Thu Apr 21 20:33:37 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:33:37 -0500 Subject: why o why [off topic] In-Reply-To: <1114110674.6234.102.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> < 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <1114105176.39a1523501227@mail.ph.utexas.edu> <1114110674.6234.102.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114115617.952a2a9fb5247@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Karsten Wade : > On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:39 -0500, Eric Rostetter wrote: > > Quoting Rahul Sundaram : > > > > > > Whats wrong On Document for deployment of Oracle on fedora or RHEL > > > > > > > > > I am not claiming that its wrong but I would like a discussion (not just > > > between us) before it gets accepted officially. So I am dropping off > > > this conversation until others participate in it I was just trying to honor the last sentence and participate. > > I'd like to see it, but I'd like to see it in a separate section, > > so that people know that it documents something that is not a part > > of Fedora Core releases, but can be used with Fedora Core releases. > > > > So, I'd vote to have a separate section for non-Fedora Core included > > software. I don't care if the software is Open Source or not so much > > as I care that it is not part of the distribution, really. I'd consider > > it all "Third Party" software, whether open source or not. > > I think this is not a moot point. > > Fedora Project is about building a general purpose OS from free > components. That includes the documentation. Then perhaps this should be noted somewhere on the FDP web pages? > There are plenty of people dedicated to making non-free software work > and documenting that. It's really not our purpose here. I can accept that. There are other places to put such things (e.g. fedoranews.org). > If we were a general-purpose Linux documentation project like, say, > TLDP, then we could consider all cases of everything that runs under > Linux. But we are a Fedora documentation project. I agree. > To be honest, we have enough work to do already without having to do > Oracle, Nvidia et al's work for them. I agree with that also. Plus, it is no skin off my nose either way... But, it would be nice if this was posted someplace obvious on the FDP web page so that people don't waste their time writing/submitting stuff we don't want. > - Karsten -- Eric Rostetter From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Thu Apr 21 20:48:05 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:48:05 +0100 Subject: documentation scope (Re: why o why [off topic]) In-Reply-To: <1114112937.6234.107.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> < 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <1114095036.3099.232411352@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1114107870.6234.91.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114112238.8424.14.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1114112937.6234.107.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114116485.8424.41.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:48 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Do we have an existing document that could cover policy for > > scope/lifecycle of docs (what we accept, how we support it, process of > > obsoleting old work) ? These issues don't seem to neatly fit just Quick > > Start, Documentation or CVS Usage. > > I see this as the Documentation Guide. It is one of our few monolithic > documents. It could contain everything about this project, process, > lifecycle, workflow, how-to, what-is, etc. > > Making separate or joined documents is just about the same thing. Since > it's already there, I'm in favor of adding to the Doc Guide as the > canonical for All Things FDP. OK. The current version of this is primarily technical (DocBook/CVS use), but of course it's due to be revised anyhow. The only thing I'd add is that big documents can look imposing just by their size... I like the way that the current Docs Project site has a relatively short, action-orientated page ("to get contributing, do this, then this and then this"), although I agree that the existing content of the Quick Start Guide page ought to be part of the Big Book of Documenting. From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Apr 21 20:51:28 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:51:28 -0500 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050421155128.1034e09c.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Rahul Sundaram , spake thus: > Anyone tried compiling this with GCJ. If that works it can pushed into > Fedora Extras. The Free Java stack seems to be maturing now I had a few moments to spare, so I tried compiling jEdit from CVS using GCJ (using the javac wrapper controlled by "alternatives --config javac"). The editor itself built fine and seems to run. Many, many of the customizing plugins did _not_ build, the XML plugin being one that failed -- thus the tag completion and suggestion features are missing. I lack the expertise and interest to proceed further. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Thu Apr 21 21:38:21 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:38:21 -0500 Subject: All formats In-Reply-To: <1114110219.6234.96.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114110219.6234.96.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114119501.dce3d97320bc2@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Karsten Wade : > Yes, we are working on fixing the Doc Guide and Quick Start Guide to be > better. Let's keep that discussion separate. Same for the processes. Okay. How can we help? > First, our process for taking submissions and turning them into docs is > entirely separate from the tool used to generate the docs. > > As a project, we are centered around DocBook and XML. I think this is > the right thing to do, to have a single source for documentation that > can generate _all_ formats. I agree. > We will take a new doc in any format. > > We will help to convert it to DocBook XML. > > All new documents _must_ have a maintainer who commits to keeping the > doc up to date. That person doesn't have to be the original author. This type of clear, concise info is needed on the FDP web site. > If you can only write in {Wiki, HTML, plain text, RTF, troff, LaTeX}, > then go ahead. After we convert it for you for maintenance, you can > learn the DocBook. It's just not that hard. Really. And you can use Or, they can find someone else to maintain it in theory, so they never have to learn DocBook/CVS/etc. Sounds good. But I agree with others that the FDP web site does not give this impression. Are the web pages for the FDP (http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/, the Quick Start Guide, the Documentation Guide, and the Documentation Project FAQs) considered as part of the same process, or separate? How would one go about helping with these pages other than as it states "If you have any thoughts, please share them on the fedora-docs-list mailing list." or using the bugzilla. How about the page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/MasterTasks which isn't listed on the FDP pages but is referenced here. Who can update that? And how does it related to the bugzilla entries for tasks/docs? Interestingly, having just looked at the wiki, I find I should have already been there and done some stuff there (like self introduction) but no where did I find a reference to any of this... It's like I'm arguing we need a wiki, when apparently we already have one and I don't know it... -- Eric Rostetter From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 22:41:42 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:41:42 -0400 Subject: documentation scope (Re: why o why [off topic]) In-Reply-To: <1114116485.8424.41.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> < 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <1114095036.3099.232411352@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1114107870.6234.91.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114112238.8424.14.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1114112937.6234.107.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114116485.8424.41.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <1114123302.4742.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 21:48 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:48 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > Do we have an existing document that could cover policy for > > > scope/lifecycle of docs (what we accept, how we support it, process of > > > obsoleting old work) ? These issues don't seem to neatly fit just Quick > > > Start, Documentation or CVS Usage. > > > > I see this as the Documentation Guide. It is one of our few monolithic > > documents. It could contain everything about this project, process, > > lifecycle, workflow, how-to, what-is, etc. > > > > Making separate or joined documents is just about the same thing. Since > > it's already there, I'm in favor of adding to the Doc Guide as the > > canonical for All Things FDP. > > OK. The current version of this is primarily technical (DocBook/CVS > use), but of course it's due to be revised anyhow. Like with a Style chapter! (Hint, hint, certain editors...) ;-D > The only thing I'd add is that big documents can look imposing just by > their size... I like the way that the current Docs Project site has a > relatively short, action-orientated page ("to get contributing, do this, > then this and then this"), although I agree that the existing content of > the Quick Start Guide page ought to be part of the Big Book of > Documenting. I think big books can be made much less scary when the very first thing that appears in them is a demystification of what's in the rest of the book. Let me give an example. I have a neat little musical gadget that came with a user manual. This gadget is designed for ALL musicians, not geeky ones, and is used by many famous people who are not geeks themselves. The manual starts with a chapter, 1-1/2 pages long, that should basically be (and, in fact, roughly *is*) "If You're Impatient, Read Only This Before You Plug in and Start Twiddling Knobs." If the Doc Guide has a *VERY SHORT* chapter up front that serves something like this purpose -- i.e. "Don't Be Scared of This Guide; Here's What It Contains in a Nutshell" -- it would be more accessible to all without having to dumb down the entire guide. Just an idea... I will try and Wikize this if/when I get a chance tonight. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Apr 21 23:17:27 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:17:27 -0500 Subject: documentation scope (Re: why o why [off topic]) In-Reply-To: <1114123302.4742.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in> <42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in> <42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <1114095036.3099.232411352@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1114107870.6234.91.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114112238.8424.14.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1114112937.6234.107.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114116485.8424.41.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1114123302.4742.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050421181727.7f8a9629.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > I have a neat little musical gadget that came with a user manual. This > gadget is designed for ALL musicians, not geeky ones, and is used by > many famous people who are not geeks themselves. And what gadget might that be? Perhaps I'd want one ;-) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 23:42:51 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:42:51 -0400 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1114126971.4742.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:50 -0400, Jeff Kinz wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 12:19:06PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > > > > > > > You can easily track changes with wiki , implement workflow and change > > > history ...revert the changes, discuss changes ..edit document > > > online, resolve conflicts and yes its possible to export wiki into > > > docbook format do lot dynamic stuff with content ... > > > (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/DocBook_XML_export) ... > > > > > > I suspect that learning how a wiki system manages all this would have a > > similar learning curve to using CVS and Docbook. We really should be > > I have to disagree, strongly. those learning efforts are different by at > least an order of magnitude, possibly two. You cannot presume > familiarity with either xml or docbook technology on the part of the > contributors. (or even CVS). > > I've been using troff macros to produce docs for almost 20 years, so I'm > not afraid of directly producing clumsy non-wysiwig formats like xml. > > However, the difference in scale of effort required to learn how to use > a good wiki (like the one wikipedia is using), and the amount of effort > required to learn the XML/Docbook/Fedora docbook template is vastly > different. Speaking from personal experience: > > Wikipedia: picked up in less than 15 minutes. > > Fedora docs: Examined the guides, looked at all the documentation offered > on the process. That documentation presumed prior knowledge on how to > use xml and docbook without providing a pathway to same. > > Result: > 20 min in wiki = finished submission of existing document > 2 hrs in fedora docs - given up as too clumsy to be worth the > effort to convert existing document. I think what you're indicating is not necessarily as indicative of problems in the toolset as of problems in the guide. The latter should be fixed before we move on the former. > How to fix it/ Whats missing from fedora docs guide: > No example of simple Fedora docbook document being created > pointers to Fedora docbook templates and skeletons > (please note - if these already exist, then they need to be > better advertised) The example-tutorial is sorely lacking. However, what people (including myself) fail to notice is that the Documentation Guide itself is guidance. When an author follows the three-step process to download the fedora-docs source from CVS, you get the XML source code to the very Documentation Guide you're reading online. Once the author realizes this, *everything* gets easier. I troubled around for, well, quite a bit longer before this bit of slightly recursive logic occurred to me. That's not to say that my experience shows a solution; it merely indicates a way in which the Guide could be improved to actually solve the problem. We could solve this problem in much the way that the Emacs online tutorial works -- in other words, making the CVS downloading, and reading some XML part of a real tutorial process. But that's only one solution; I am still in favor of eventually moving to a (stable and dependable!) GUI tool to ease newbies into the process. > Often a worked thru example is worth more than 20 pages of "documentation" I could not agree more. From my previous life as an instructor, I'm a big believer in "tell me, then show me, but most importantly let me do it." -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkinz at kinz.org Thu Apr 21 23:56:32 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:56:32 -0400 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <1114126971.4742.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>; from stickster@gmail.com on Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 07:42:51PM -0400 References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> <1114126971.4742.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050421195632.A8795@redline.comcast.net> On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 07:42:51PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:50 -0400, Jeff Kinz wrote: > > Result: > > 20 min in wiki = finished submission of existing document > > 2 hrs in fedora docs - given up as too clumsy to be worth the > > effort to convert existing document. > > I think what you're indicating is not necessarily as indicative of > problems in the toolset as of problems in the guide. The latter should > be fixed before we move on the former. Spot on. That was intended to be my main point. > > How to fix it/ Whats missing from fedora docs guide: > > No example of simple Fedora docbook document being created > > pointers to Fedora docbook templates and skeletons > > (please note - if these already exist, then they need to be > > better advertised) > > The example-tutorial is sorely lacking. However, what people (including > myself) fail to notice is that the Documentation Guide itself is > guidance. When an author follows the three-step process to download the > fedora-docs source from CVS, you get the XML source code to the very > Documentation Guide you're reading online. Once the author realizes > this, *everything* gets easier. I troubled around for, well, quite a > bit longer before this bit of slightly recursive logic occurred to me. Aha. See what I get for trying to understand the technology before using it! :) > That's not to say that my experience shows a solution; it merely > indicates a way in which the Guide could be improved to actually solve > the problem. We could solve this problem in much the way that the Emacs > online tutorial works -- in other words, making the CVS downloading, and > reading some XML part of a real tutorial process. But that's only one > solution; I am still in favor of eventually moving to a (stable and > dependable!) GUI tool to ease newbies into the process. > > > Often a worked thru example is worth more than 20 pages of "documentation" > > I could not agree more. From my previous life as an instructor, I'm a > big believer in "tell me, then show me, but most importantly let me do > it." Amen. -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 23:59:34 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:59:34 -0400 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <20050421162601.A7268@redline.comcast.net> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> <1114106397.5ace1c6d61580@mail.ph.utexas.edu> <20050421162601.A7268@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1114127975.4742.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> [...snip...] Jeff Kinz wrote: > Apparently you can submit a doc in just about any format you want. This > policy was unknown to me (Something else to put into the FDOC Guide :) ) > or I would have submitted my doc in html or text format. This is on the Wiki, but I think the Documentation Guide (as canon) should probably contain a prominent statement to this effect as well. Jeff, since it's a pretty easy process to file a bug, could you do that? Don't worry if you are not experienced with Bugzilla. If you visit this page, you'll find a link for filing a bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/beta/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora% 20Core&op_sys=Linux&bug_status=NEW&component=fedora- docs&rep_platform=All&priority=normal&bug_severity=enhancement&bug_file_loc=http%3A%2F%2Ffedora.redhat.com%2Fprojects%2Fdocs%2Fparticipate%2Fdocumentation-guide%2F&short_desc=Describe%20problem%2C%20fix%2C%20or%20request%20for%20Documentation%20Guide%20notes&comment=Description%20of%20problem%2C%20bug%2C%20incorrect%20information%2C%20or%20enhancement%20request%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A&form_name=enter_bug Simply fill out the summary line ("Documentation Guide needs info on other submission formats") and the description, and everything else should be done for you automatically. To be honest, I could have filled out the bug myself in the time I took to write this message, but then (1) you wouldn't know how to do this for any other deficiencies you find in the Doc Guide, and (2) the archives wouldn't capture it. Thanks for helping out! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 00:42:59 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:42:59 -0400 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <1114099473.8aebb14561112@mail.ph.utexas.edu> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <1114099473.8aebb14561112@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <1114130579.4742.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 11:04 -0500, Eric Rostetter wrote: > Quoting gaurav : > > > Hi List, > > Howdy. I just recently joined the list, since I'm doing the web/docs > for the Fedora Legacy Project... > > > I was wondering why this documentation submition process is > > overly complex... > > While I agree it is very complex, I also like it. I think it will produce > commercial quality docs, if enough people participate. I think that is > the goal of it. Hear, hear, Eric! I am a big fan of the Red Hat official documentation. I didn't find it early enough to learn from it when I first got started with Linux, but later I found that it filled in *a lot* of the holes in my knowledge of the software. I began to point new users to it, and found that often they would drop me a personal email later to tell me how helpful the docs were -- which was funny because I had no part in them myself, only enjoyed them as a reader. My personal goal is that, in the future, thousands of people will get the same benefits from FDP documentation. I want the same high standards of quality for all our work here, and I have no doubt it will pay off over time. There are many places on the Web to find answers, but very few, if any, produce that kind of consistency of quality and comprehensiveness. > > why don t we we use some wiki like tikiwiki or media > > wiki (of webopedia fame) to manage documents > > The best use of the wiki is to create the initial docs, which can be > done with lots of colaboration and community input. At that point, the > wiki doc can then be converted to DocBook, checked for accuracy and > so on, and submitted. I think this would be the ultimate solution: > multiple people help create the doc, someone then distills that into > the proper format, the editors then verify it and make any corrections > needed, and it is published meeting all the standards. > > > ...why I am required to > > submit docs in docbook xml format ....and check into cvs ....then built > > it ....., > > I think that someone is required to do this, not neccessarily you. > You can always create a doc in some other way, and then find someone > else to convert it to docbook and put it in cvs. > > > most wiki system have have built in work flow, revision > > mechanism, doc conversion to pdf and tons of other stuff etc > > ...........what is the requirement or need for such complexity ... > > That I can't answer. But, maybe I've suggested a way to work around > the requirments and still participate? Others have successfully done the same. I keep my drafts on my own server for people to look at and comment on. I just recently put a Wikimedia/Wikipedia wiki up and may use that in the future... these are all good choices. I think we have only asked people to put something prominently on each page showing that it's not official documentation yet. Dig the archives for more information, or maybe someone here has the text they used. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 01:18:40 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:18:40 -0400 Subject: All formats In-Reply-To: <1114119501.dce3d97320bc2@mail.ph.utexas.edu> References: <1114110219.6234.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114119501.dce3d97320bc2@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <1114132720.4742.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 16:38 -0500, Eric Rostetter wrote: > Quoting Karsten Wade : > > > Yes, we are working on fixing the Doc Guide and Quick Start Guide to be > > better. Let's keep that discussion separate. Same for the processes. > > Okay. How can we help? Just like the software development process which you folks at FLP have been doing so well! (Little pat on the back never hurts, thanks for helping me keep my Red Hat Linux 9 box working for long enough to move to Fedora 3.) Identify problems and file a bug in Bugzilla against the "fedora-docs" component of Fedora Core. I am going out on a limb here, but I will bet that eventually, if we get enough high-quality docs together, there will be a FCn-docs.iso in the distribution. That's my personal 3-year goal, if there could be such a thing in this fast-moving environment! > > First, our process for taking submissions and turning them into docs is > > entirely separate from the tool used to generate the docs. > > > > As a project, we are centered around DocBook and XML. I think this is > > the right thing to do, to have a single source for documentation that > > can generate _all_ formats. > > I agree. > > > We will take a new doc in any format. > > > > We will help to convert it to DocBook XML. > > > > All new documents _must_ have a maintainer who commits to keeping the > > doc up to date. That person doesn't have to be the original author. > > This type of clear, concise info is needed on the FDP web site. We could link to this on the fedoraproject.org wiki... > > If you can only write in {Wiki, HTML, plain text, RTF, troff, LaTeX}, > > then go ahead. After we convert it for you for maintenance, you can > > learn the DocBook. It's just not that hard. Really. And you can use > > Or, they can find someone else to maintain it in theory, so they never > have to learn DocBook/CVS/etc. Sounds good. But I agree with others > that the FDP web site does not give this impression. > Are the web pages for the FDP (http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/, > the Quick Start Guide, the Documentation Guide, and the Documentation > Project FAQs) considered as part of the same process, or separate? How > would one go about helping with these pages other than as it states > "If you have any thoughts, please share them on the fedora-docs-list mailing > list." or using the bugzilla. Persons with docs CVS access don't necessarily have access to the web site, but I believe there is a subset of those persons who do. They can bring that part in line; the rest of us can do things like make a nice link on the fp.org wiki. Are you on the edit list there? > How about the page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/MasterTasks > which isn't listed on the FDP pages but is referenced here. Who can update > that? And how does it related to the bugzilla entries for tasks/docs? The wiki came along afterward, and the FDP pages at f.r.c haven't caught up yet. See above, but you *can* file Bugzilla (still against fedora- docs) for website problems as well; there's just fewer people who can address them. We are still getting the CVS portion worked out, but it's going to be a matter of days or a couple weeks rather than months, I think. I am hoping to pitch in with some Documentation Guide overhaul. Since I have a major section under consideration already for inclusion there, it makes sense for me to devote some time to helping in that regard. > Interestingly, having just looked at the wiki, I find I should have already > been there and done some stuff there (like self introduction) but no where > did I find a reference to any of this... Please feel free to help if you have time/energy! > It's like I'm arguing we need a wiki, when apparently we already have one > and I don't know it... Yeah, weird, isn't it?! ;-D Thanks for coming to the list, Eric, we're glad you're here, and hope that it will be worthwhile for you. Uh.... I guess I'm really just speaking for myself, but I think everyone will agree to that part at least! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 01:52:59 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:52:59 -0400 Subject: Linking to mp3 decoders In-Reply-To: <1114107197.6234.83.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <426753B3.40608@redhat.com> <1114107197.6234.83.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114134779.4742.91.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 11:13 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > (moving this discussion on-list for clarity) > > On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:48 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > > > I found this article on the Red Hat website which explicitly links to > > mp3 decoders. http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_80mm.html. If this is > > legally safe we might as well as bless fedorafaq(.org) as our official > > one and point it in our release notes or even download the mp3 decoder > > automatically from the net when the user tries to play an mp3 file. We > > might to have get feedback from our legal department on this but I > > thought I would let you know > > Word I got today was that we are OK to link to a site that discusses > these issues, as that page does. We cannot link to a site that directly > offers the questionable items for download. That could be "contributory > infringement." > > So, we cannot necessarily use the content from FedoraFAQ as-is > ourselves, but we can link to it, saying, "For information about using > MP3s, this site discusses that." As long as they don't have direct > links to packages that might contain infringing materials. Then we > can't link to them. > > Clear as mud? > > We need to review how FedoraFAQ.org handles these items _before_ using > them as a reference. Here's my take on this topic, since it's been around the list several times before. I think this is good enough for a FAQ at the wiki, for that matter! I'm not really comfortable with the idea of keeping tabs on FedoraFAQ.org, for no other reason than that we have other things to do, and I don't feel anyone there should feel pressured, not that they necessarily would, to meet a standard we're setting as an "official" project. Here's a couple interesting rhetorical questions: How often shall we review their site for content that adheres to our legal requirements? Doesn't shifting case law in a specific territory change our legal requirements in that territory? And how does any of this further the mission of the Fedora Project, which is to offer an operating system and tools that are 100% free? Brief aside: I like MP3s. I like the way they sound, which -- the way I encode at least -- is better than Ogg, and not as good as the original 16b/44k WAV's on the CD's from which they were made. (Any arguments on this point, which is purely a matter of opinion, should go to me personally and not to the list, please; let's not bore the readership.) That doesn't change the fact that the method is legally encumbered in certain territories in a way that is *completely incompatible* with the stated philosophy, mission, and goals of the Fedora Project, which is to provide a 100% free operating system. Linking to information to reduce the 100% figure to something less runs counter to that philosophy. The link on the Red Hat site has nothing whatsoever to do with this issue. Red Hat has linked before to this type of information, and may again in the future. What Red Hat does is not what Fedora does, although surely each one affects the other. I like our previous solution to this problem, which was to simply suggest a Google search. Let's stop trying to cut this issue as close as we can. Let's stop trying to figure out how to get around the mission of the project, and simply work within it. Most of all, let's stop wasting time and bandwidth on this issue... The time that we spend on yet another round of discussing a problem which, in my opinion at least, we already successfully solved could be better spent: 1. Reviewing the Documentation Guide and setting up a TODO for overhaul 2. Recruiting writers 3. Editing several docs that are still in Bugzilla (how about that Samba-LDAP one? or ClamAV? I could use help on either, and they need to be updated...) 4. Everything else I forgot because I'm getting tired All right, sorry to rant at the end there. But seriously, the horse on the OR table isn't breathing, and I, for one, would really like to call this one.... ;-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Apr 22 05:04:15 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:34:15 +0530 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <1114100225.2864e5a615262@mail.ph.utexas.edu> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <1114100225.2864e5a615262@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <426885CF.9030008@redhat.com> Hi >So, the question becomes do we want to foster an environment of cooperative >documentation writing, or of individual documentation writing? > > we would want a single person or a strong team to take responsibility over a document and refine it to the extend that end users would enjoy reading through. The process is probably geared towards invidual contributors with cooperative feedback and revisions rather than everyone jumping in and editing portions of a single document that a wiki system would promote regards Rahul From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Fri Apr 22 05:42:00 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:12:00 +0530 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <426885CF.9030008@redhat.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com><111410022 5 .2864e5a615262@mail.ph.utexas.edu> <426885CF.9030008@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42688EA8.8030105@hclcomnet.co.in> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > >> So, the question becomes do we want to foster an environment of >> cooperative >> documentation writing, or of individual documentation writing? >> >> > > we would want a single person or a strong team to take responsibility > over a document and refine it to the extend that end users would enjoy > reading through. this is poosible in wiki > The process is probably geared towards invidual contributors with > cooperative feedback and revisions rather than everyone jumping in > and editing portions of a single document that a wiki system would > promote Wiki system does not promote happzzard editing ......you can set it so that only people in particular group can edit or configure a workflow around it....It has support for revisions,unlimited rollbacks, content expiry, discussions, talkbacks etc...its a very dynamic process ...designed for sole aim for cooperative documentation writing I can suggest another alternative for documentation can be a good CMS ....I have been using CMS called typo3 (www.typo3.org) for a while ...It has built in workflow, Richtext editor, XML support, Dynamic Conversion support > > regards > Rahul > From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Fri Apr 22 06:05:47 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:35:47 +0530 Subject: All formats In-Reply-To: <1114110219.6234.96.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114110219.6234.96.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4268943B.4090807@hclcomnet.co.in> Hi, Karsten Wade wrote: >We will take a new doc in any format. > >We will help to convert it to DocBook XML. > >All new documents _must_ have a maintainer who commits to keeping the >doc up to date. That person doesn't have to be the original author. > >If you have a doc that is _already_ in a Wiki and an argument why it >should stay there, let's consider it. > > > > I was also wondering about possibility of including vedio tutorials (for example configuring a printer) for non technical desktop users using open source screen capturing program or wink (http://www.debugmode.com/wink/zxz).....I guess desktop users like my Dad might appreciate this :-) and be more self reliant From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Apr 22 06:11:06 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:41:06 +0530 Subject: All formats In-Reply-To: <4268943B.4090807@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <1114110219.6234.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <4268943B.4090807@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <4268957A.7010307@redhat.com> Hi >> > I was also wondering about possibility of including vedio tutorials > (for example configuring a printer) for non technical desktop users > using open source screen capturing program or wink > (http://www.debugmode.com/wink/zxz).....I guess desktop users like my > Dad might appreciate this :-) and be more self reliant If the output is in an open source format like Ogg Theora that might very well be a good idea. Basically we should ensure that the things we document and deal with does not require programs external to the Fedora Project ( Core or Extras) to be useful regards Rahul From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Fri Apr 22 09:08:05 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:08:05 +0100 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <1114126971.4742.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> <1114126971.4742.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114160885.27542.232475827@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:42:51 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" said: > > > > Often a worked thru example is worth more than 20 pages of "documentation" > > I could not agree more. From my previous life as an instructor, I'm a > big believer in "tell me, then show me, but most importantly let me do > it." Random idea, before I forget about it: Since we are using CVS, is it possible (or worthwhile) to have a CVS module for new writers to practice on (perhaps as part of a tutorial) ? I'm thinking of the "sandbox" pages that all Wiki systems include for newbies to experiment with and make mistakes. -- Stuart Ellis From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Fri Apr 22 10:34:56 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:34:56 +0100 Subject: documentation scope (Re: why o why [off topic]) In-Reply-To: <1114123302.4742.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> < 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <1114095036.3099.232411352@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1114107870.6234.91.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114112238.8424.14.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1114112937.6234.107.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114116485.8424.41.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1114123302.4742.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114166096.32522.232479905@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:41:42 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" said: > On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 21:48 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > The only thing I'd add is that big documents can look imposing just by > > their size... I like the way that the current Docs Project site has a > > relatively short, action-orientated page ("to get contributing, do this, > > then this and then this"), although I agree that the existing content of > > the Quick Start Guide page ought to be part of the Big Book of > > Documenting. > > I think big books can be made much less scary when the very first thing > that appears in them is a demystification of what's in the rest of the > book. Let me give an example. > > If the Doc Guide has a *VERY SHORT* chapter up front that serves > something like this purpose -- i.e. "Don't Be Scared of This Guide; > Here's What It Contains in a Nutshell" -- it would be more accessible to > all without having to dumb down the entire guide. +1. After trying them out with the software management doc I think that I'll probably end up putting "Intended Audience" and/or "How to Use This Document" sections in every tutorial I write. I also like having an overview Webpage of the Project that doesn't require opening a document, so I'll probably write some text for one when we have draft process documents, and post it to see what people think. -- Stuart Ellis From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 12:11:18 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:11:18 -0400 Subject: documentation scope (Re: why o why [off topic]) In-Reply-To: <1114166096.32522.232479905@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> < 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <1114095036.3099.232411352@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1114107870.6234.91.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114112238.8424.14.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1114112937.6234.107.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114116485.8424.41.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1114123302.4742.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114166096.32522.232479905@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1114171879.4509.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 11:34 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:41:42 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" > said: > > On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 21:48 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > The only thing I'd add is that big documents can look imposing just by > > > their size... I like the way that the current Docs Project site has a > > > relatively short, action-orientated page ("to get contributing, do this, > > > then this and then this"), although I agree that the existing content of > > > the Quick Start Guide page ought to be part of the Big Book of > > > Documenting. > > > > I think big books can be made much less scary when the very first thing > > that appears in them is a demystification of what's in the rest of the > > book. Let me give an example. > > > > > > > If the Doc Guide has a *VERY SHORT* chapter up front that serves > > something like this purpose -- i.e. "Don't Be Scared of This Guide; > > Here's What It Contains in a Nutshell" -- it would be more accessible to > > all without having to dumb down the entire guide. > > +1. > > After trying them out with the software management doc I think that I'll > probably end up putting "Intended Audience" and/or "How to Use This > Document" sections in every tutorial I write. Before you put in all those changes, please check out my mirror- tutorial, which implements a lot of this in a way that was previously discussed and ratified on-list. http://docs.frields.org/html/mirror-tutorial-en/ Try and make your front chapter as close to this in appearance and structure as possible. There's a Purpose section, Audience section, one or more About sections (one for each of the *most* major technologies your tutorial discusses), an Additional Resources section, and an optional Acknowledgments section. I'll start a new thread about this as soon as I can figure out what I am able to start doing with the Documentation Guide. I've put this on our wiki DocGuide TODO list, tied in with the "provide example tutorial to learn while doing" bullet: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocumentationGuide/ > I also like having an overview Webpage of the Project that doesn't > require opening a document, so I'll probably write some text for one > when we have draft process documents, and post it to see what people > think. Like this? http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ You could start with that and suggest changes from there. You can check this stuff out from CVS in the "/cvs/fedora" tree (as opposed to "/cvs/docs" or "/cvs/extras," although you will have to file your changes as a patch in Bugzilla. It would be much appreciated; the front page on f.r.c is getting out of date as we speak... tick... tock... :-) Seriously though, we should start figuring out ways to take some of the load of the few Red Hat employees, who, after all and just like most of us, don't get to spend all day just diddling with Fedora Project stuff. Your offer to do that is just what the doctor ordered, methinks. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 12:22:16 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:22:16 -0400 Subject: All formats In-Reply-To: <4268957A.7010307@redhat.com> References: <1114110219.6234.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <4268943B.4090807@hclcomnet.co.in> <4268957A.7010307@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1114172536.4509.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 11:41 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > I was also wondering about possibility of including vedio tutorials > > (for example configuring a printer) for non technical desktop users > > using open source screen capturing program or wink > > (http://www.debugmode.com/wink/zxz).....I guess desktop users like my > > Dad might appreciate this :-) and be more self reliant > > If the output is in an open source format like Ogg Theora that might > very well be a good idea. Basically we should ensure that the things we > document and deal with does not require programs external to the Fedora > Project ( Core or Extras) to be useful I think this definitely falls under the FDP purview, but it's a long range project. We need to get enough written documentation done to make this resource allocation reasonable. I'd be interested to know what toolchain the new Red Hat media developer uses. You can find a very interesting article about him in the newest Red Hat Magazine, which is edited by our very own (so to speak) Tammy Fox. http://www.redhat.com/magazine/006apr05/departments/red_hat_speaks/ I'm betting he uses Macintosh. This type of work -- video/audio editing is the only reason I have any Windows systems in my house anymore. The tools for Linux are simply not able to provide me as much productivity yet. I suspect that will not be the case in 2-3 years. In any case, I've worked on these training videos before at my job, and they are higher in complexity by *several* orders of magnitude over what's required for written documentation. Script-writing, lighting, directing, camera work, sound recording, editing, mixing, scoring... this is why media houses exist! :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Fri Apr 22 15:56:45 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:56:45 +0100 Subject: documentation scope (Re: why o why [off topic]) In-Reply-To: <1114171879.4509.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in><42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> < 4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in><42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <4267528E.6 0 508@hclcomnet.co.in><42675570.2080100@redhat.com> <426759D2.7050407@hclc o m net.co.in><42675B05.4000002@redhat.com> <42675DE4.5000208@hclcomnet.co . i n> <426760D4.8020508@redhat.com> <42676B9E.8030900@hclcomnet.co.in><4267 700C .5080408@redhat.com> <42679553.2080004@hclcomnet.co.in> <42679911.1030403@redhat.com> <4267ACD9.7010701@hclcomnet.co.in> <4267AF0C.9060401@redhat.com> <1114095036.3099.232411352@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1114107870.6234.91.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114112238.8424.14.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1114112937.6234.107.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114116485.8424.41.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1114123302.4742.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114166096.32522.232479905@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1114171879.4509.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114185405.32253.232500524@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:11:18 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" said: > > After trying them out with the software management doc I think that I'll > > probably end up putting "Intended Audience" and/or "How to Use This > > Document" sections in every tutorial I write. > > Before you put in all those changes, please check out my mirror- > tutorial, which implements a lot of this in a way that was previously > discussed and ratified on-list. > > http://docs.frields.org/html/mirror-tutorial-en/ Thanks. That discussion may have been before I was following this list - I'll have a look back through the archives. > > I also like having an overview Webpage of the Project that doesn't > > require opening a document, so I'll probably write some text for one > > when we have draft process documents, and post it to see what people > > think. > > Like this? > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > > You could start with that and suggest changes from there. I was really thinking of the mechanics of the Project, but the start page is definitely in serious need of an update (as Eric has also pointed out in another thread), so I'll check out the source. -- Stuart Ellis From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Fri Apr 22 17:25:33 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:25:33 -0500 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <1114127975.4742.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> <1114106397.5ace1c6d61580@mail.ph.utexas.edu> <20050421162601.A7268@redline.comcast.net> <1114127975.4742.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114190733.dc9a8ff37e997@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting "Paul W. Frields" : > [...snip...] > > Jeff Kinz wrote: > > Apparently you can submit a doc in just about any format you want. This > > policy was unknown to me (Something else to put into the FDOC Guide :) ) > > or I would have submitted my doc in html or text format. > > This is on the Wiki, but I think the Documentation Guide (as canon) > should probably contain a prominent statement to this effect as well. I've found no link from the web pages to the wiki, so either there is none, or it isn't obvious. Hence, the wiki is of no use to someone starting to participate in the project, as they don't know about the wiki. -- Eric Rostetter From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 17:45:42 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:45:42 -0400 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <1114190733.dc9a8ff37e997@mail.ph.utexas.edu> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> <1114106397.5ace1c6d61580@mail.ph.utexas.edu> <20050421162601.A7268@redline.comcast.net> <1114127975.4742.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114190733.dc9a8ff37e997@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <1114191942.4509.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 12:25 -0500, Eric Rostetter wrote: > Quoting "Paul W. Frields" : > > > [...snip...] > > > > Jeff Kinz wrote: > > > Apparently you can submit a doc in just about any format you want. This > > > policy was unknown to me (Something else to put into the FDOC Guide :) ) > > > or I would have submitted my doc in html or text format. > > > > This is on the Wiki, but I think the Documentation Guide (as canon) > > should probably contain a prominent statement to this effect as well. > > I've found no link from the web pages to the wiki, so either there is none, > or it isn't obvious. Hence, the wiki is of no use to someone starting > to participate in the project, as they don't know about the wiki. Excellent point, can you file a bug for this? We should get it changed ASAP, unless there's a good reason for it not to be there... I can't think what that might be. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 22 18:53:03 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:53:03 -0700 Subject: All formats In-Reply-To: <1114172536.4509.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114110219.6234.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <4268943B.4090807@hclcomnet.co.in> <4268957A.7010307@redhat.com> <1114172536.4509.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114195983.6234.131.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 08:22 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > In any case, I've worked on these training videos before at my job, and > they are higher in complexity by *several* orders of magnitude over > what's required for written documentation. Script-writing, lighting, > directing, camera work, sound recording, editing, mixing, scoring... > this is why media houses exist! :-) I agree about not getting sidetracked, but I want to recognize the growing value in what are being called 'screencasts.' These are short, usually Flash movies that show someone using a piece of software to accomplish tasks. It can include a narration. Something like this can be produced using basic desktop tools. However, I doubt there is a fully free toolchain, and if there is, the output format isn't an open one. Still, something to keep our eye on. If making useful screencasts was someone's entire preference and they wouldn't participate otherwise, I'd say we should embrace them and see what can be done. We can still have open source documentation that compiles into a non-free format and possibly still be within the spirit of the project - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Fri Apr 22 19:21:07 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:21:07 -0500 Subject: All formats In-Reply-To: <1114195983.6234.131.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114110219.6234.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <4268943B.4090807@hclcomnet.co.in> <4268957A.7010307@redhat.com> <1114172536.4509.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114195983.6234.131.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114197667.73341ccce4398@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Karsten Wade : > I agree about not getting sidetracked, but I want to recognize the > growing value in what are being called 'screencasts.' These are short, > usually Flash movies that show someone using a piece of software to > accomplish tasks. I don't think FC includes Flash, so that may not be viable (though I'm not sure). Maybe a powerpoint presentation, since it can be created/viewed and what have you in OpenOffice which I'm pretty sure is part of FC could be of use here? > It can include a narration. Something like this can > be produced using basic desktop tools. However, I doubt there is a > fully free toolchain, and if there is, the output format isn't an open > one. Still, something to keep our eye on. I'm not sure the output chain/format needs to be fully open, ala my "powerpoint" reference to OpenOffice presentations. In other words, if FC provided a Flash play, I don't care if the Flash format is open or closed, only that FC provides a player for it. I think OpenOffice presentations meet all needs (open format, open program, in FC, etc) and also provide other advantages (supports input/export from other things like MS Powerpoint, etc). > If making useful screencasts was someone's entire preference and they > wouldn't participate otherwise, I'd say we should embrace them and see > what can be done. We can still have open source documentation that > compiles into a non-free format and possibly still be within the spirit > of the project I agree. The most that might be required would be to make that person an "editor" for that specific type of documentation, and set up an area to host it. No big deal, IMHO. > - Karsten -- Eric Rostetter From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 22 19:24:05 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:24:05 -0700 Subject: changes to FDP project pages Message-ID: <1114197845.6234.134.camel@erato.phig.org> Now that I have my own CVS access straightened out, I started updating the FDP project page. Changes should be live within the hour: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs Changes include new instructions on accessing CVS via pserver (anonymous) and included information about FDSCo. If you have _any_ useful suggestion/bug about any Docs page on the Fedora website, please include it as a comment in this bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=155642 Many useful suggestions have come up on list in the last few days. Please help me make sure they are not lost by adding them to that bug report. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 22 19:24:55 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:24:55 -0700 Subject: Man page format to Docbook XML for New Authors In-Reply-To: <55542.193.195.148.66.1113985242.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <55542.193.195.148.66.1113985242.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1114197896.6234.136.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 09:20 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > Dear Guys, > > I recently, with the help of Stefan, tagged up the whole of: > > http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda.html > > To give: > > http://www.amanda.org/docs/using.html > > > However, to get the manpages into docbook: > > http://www.amanda.org/docs/AMANDA-manpages.html > > We used Eric Raymonds Doclifter, which as you can see by the above results > it's very good: > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/doclifter/ > > Man page format is easy to write. One thing we could use is an example of what a "good" or "best" man page looks like. We could use this as a reference for our work and for making RFEs to developers. Internally, we've looked in the past at converting all the man pages to DocBook. My biggest concern is that us writers don't want to take responsibility for writing documentation that is really for the developer to do. OTOH, I don't mind being accountable for the final product, as long as a developer is responsible for making the content sane and match the example. Still, TLDP is the owner of the man pages, right? Maybe we can work out a process and template and offer to do some of the work, but also get TLDP to take on the new format for future work. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Fri Apr 22 20:01:38 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:01:38 -0500 Subject: changes to FDP project pages In-Reply-To: <1114197845.6234.134.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114197845.6234.134.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114200098.1b0957c4df170@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Karsten Wade : > Now that I have my own CVS access straightened out, I started updating > the FDP project page. Changes should be live within the hour: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs There appears to be a typo at the start (near the end of the first paragraph): > Fedora Project;, they too much punctuation, no? > If you have _any_ useful suggestion/bug about any Docs page on the > Fedora website, please include it as a comment in this bug: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=155642 Don't know if they are useful, but I started adding things there. -- Eric Rostetter From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 20:19:36 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:19:36 -0400 Subject: All formats In-Reply-To: <1114195983.6234.131.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114110219.6234.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <4268943B.4090807@hclcomnet.co.in> <4268957A.7010307@redhat.com> <1114172536.4509.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114195983.6234.131.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114201176.4509.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 11:53 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 08:22 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > In any case, I've worked on these training videos before at my job, and > > they are higher in complexity by *several* orders of magnitude over > > what's required for written documentation. Script-writing, lighting, > > directing, camera work, sound recording, editing, mixing, scoring... > > this is why media houses exist! :-) > > I agree about not getting sidetracked, but I want to recognize the > growing value in what are being called 'screencasts.' These are short, > usually Flash movies that show someone using a piece of software to > accomplish tasks. It can include a narration. Something like this can > be produced using basic desktop tools. However, I doubt there is a > fully free toolchain, and if there is, the output format isn't an open > one. Still, something to keep our eye on. Thanks for pointing this out. I knew there was a middle ground I was probably forgetting. They are an excellent way to learn, especially if accompanied by a soundtrack. The tools for this work are very usable; I did it myself once on a lark. > If making useful screencasts was someone's entire preference and they > wouldn't participate otherwise, I'd say we should embrace them and see > what can be done. We can still have open source documentation that > compiles into a non-free format and possibly still be within the spirit > of the project Clearly, we should never turn anyone away who wants to help.[1] Compare your last statement to providing PDFs -- same idea applies with screencasts and, say, QuickTime format, which I think is what you are saying. = = = = = [1] As an aside to everyone who's hung around this list for a while, and in the hopes of attracting interested lurkers: Please keep in mind that this should be a somewhat kinder, gentler forum than, say, a list for hardcore kernel hackers. We may receive tentative visits from people who are not Linux gurus or software developers, but people who just want to help out and don't feel they have as much to offer in the technical projects. Make a special effort to respond in a warm and welcoming manner. If you can't muster the patience, let someone else do it for you. If you don't have time to respond fully and politely on a list for writers and editors, you don't have time to respond! :-) Remember that requirements can be negotiated to a point between a writer and an editor, so don't be too quick to axe ideas. Sometimes it's tough not to be dogmatic -- speaking for myself -- but the expense of someone's willingness to help is too high a price IMHO. Just a little food for thought, now let's get back to slagging people who can't put apostrophes in the right place! Whoops. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dmalcolm at redhat.com Fri Apr 22 23:06:57 2005 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:06:57 -0400 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <1114160885.27542.232475827@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> <1114126971.4742.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114160885.27542.232475827@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1114211217.5110.47.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 10:08 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:42:51 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" > said: > > > > > > Often a worked thru example is worth more than 20 pages of "documentation" > > > > I could not agree more. From my previous life as an instructor, I'm a > > big believer in "tell me, then show me, but most importantly let me do > > it." > > Random idea, before I forget about it: Since we are using CVS, is it > possible (or worthwhile) to have a CVS module for new writers to > practice on (perhaps as part of a tutorial) ? I'm thinking of the > "sandbox" pages that all Wiki systems include for newbies to experiment > with and make mistakes. Sounds like a good idea to me. From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 22:00:21 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:00:21 -0400 Subject: getting started (false start 1 of ?) In-Reply-To: <1114016321.24455.37.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1113986688.4832.14.camel@3e6b3953.rev.stofanet.dk> <20050420094249.7018c2bf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <42666C42.7000401@redhat.com> <1114010090.4587.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050420104944.009d8121.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1114013031.24455.34.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1114014141.4587.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114016321.24455.37.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1114293621.6762.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 12:58 -0400, David Malcolm wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 12:22 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 12:03 -0400, David Malcolm wrote: > > > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 10:49 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > > > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > > > > > > > I looked at both jEdit and Conglomerate this morning for the first time. > > > > > Initial impressions are that both are very full featured. IMHO > > > > > Conglomerate has the edge for a few reasons: > > > > > > > > I retried conglomerate again this morning, too. It crashed on the very > > > > first file I tried to open. Not ready for prime time, IMHO. > > > > > > Agreed. I don't get much time to hack on Conglomerate these days, > > > alas. If you're a coder, it would be great if you could join us (see > > > http://www.conglomerate.org ) > > > > > > Please can you file bugs in bugzilla.gnome.org against Conglomerate for > > > crashes that occur. Please try to isolate a minimal test document that > > > causes the crash, and attach that to any bugs you file; this is > > > invaluable when tracking down this kind of thing (backtraces are great > > > as well, assuming you have the debuginfo package installed) > > > > Dave, > > > > If you can suggest it to any of the active developers, perhaps the > > contents of the FDP CVS would be a good place to get test documents. I > > Interesting idea, it's always useful to have a good source of real-work > test cases (Conglomerate has a built-in random DocBook generator, which > is useful for stress-testing). > > What I was really after was a specific bug report about a specific > crash, though. > > > think we validate all of them before publication, although we use the > > DocBook/XML 4.2 DTD. (Maybe that would be a good RFE for me to file in > > Bugzilla -- adding a 4.2 option in some reasonable fashion.) > > Yes, please file this. Done, #155814. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tuxxer at cox.net Sat Apr 23 23:08:58 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:08:58 -0700 Subject: Updated Hardening guide. Message-ID: <1114297738.9716.1.camel@bach> Beat me up again guys and gals. ;-) http://members.cox.net/tuxxer http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/fedora-hardening-guide-whole-en.xml XML also posted to bug #129957. -Charlie -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tuxxer at cox.net Sat Apr 23 23:30:19 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:30:19 -0700 Subject: Random "Topics" Question Message-ID: <1114299019.19974.3.camel@localhost> I was checking out the list of "ideas without owners" to see if there was anything that I could pick up. I didn't see anything without an owner in the attachment Tammy put in there many moons ago. Are the subjects listed there actively being worked on by the people to whom they've been assigned? Or have they been abandoned? -Charlie -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 23:49:51 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:49:51 -0400 Subject: Random "Topics" Question In-Reply-To: <1114299019.19974.3.camel@localhost> References: <1114299019.19974.3.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1114300191.8664.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 16:30 -0700, tuxxer wrote: > I was checking out the list of "ideas without owners" to see if there > was anything that I could pick up. I didn't see anything without an > owner in the attachment Tammy put in there many moons ago. Are the > subjects listed there actively being worked on by the people to whom > they've been assigned? Or have they been abandoned? I don't see anything active in the list there. But I have two documents -- bugs #129738 and #129739 -- that I simply don't have time to edit. Both need significant editorial work and technical assurance to get them ready for publication. Care to try your hand? And maybe this brings up an interesting question -- we may need a tracker bug for editorial. Then we'll have: * Tracker for ideas without writers/owners * Tracker for documents without editors assigned * Tracker for documents in progress Does anyone have any objections? I'll wait a suitable period before entering bugs accordingly. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 From tuxxer at cox.net Sun Apr 24 00:18:08 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:18:08 -0700 Subject: Random "Topics" Question In-Reply-To: <1114300191.8664.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114299019.19974.3.camel@localhost> <1114300191.8664.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114301888.19974.9.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 19:49 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 16:30 -0700, tuxxer wrote: > > I was checking out the list of "ideas without owners" to see if there > > was anything that I could pick up. I didn't see anything without an > > owner in the attachment Tammy put in there many moons ago. Are the > > subjects listed there actively being worked on by the people to whom > > they've been assigned? Or have they been abandoned? > > I don't see anything active in the list there. But I have two documents > -- bugs #129738 and #129739 -- that I simply don't have time to edit. > Both need significant editorial work and technical assurance to get them > ready for publication. Care to try your hand? Sure, I can give it a shot. I haven't edited anything, before, so this will be interesting. ;-) > > And maybe this brings up an interesting question -- we may need a > tracker bug for editorial. Then we'll have: > > * Tracker for ideas without writers/owners > * Tracker for documents without editors assigned > * Tracker for documents in progress > > Does anyone have any objections? I'll wait a suitable period before > entering bugs accordingly. > Sounds like a good idea. There doesn't seem to be any real designation between authors and editors. That's kind of why I went to bugzilla and this list with the hardening overview. I think this might be a "quick pick" kind of thing, where if someone didn't have time or any idea for authoring, they could grab something waiting for editing. -Charlie -- -tuxxer echo "uvyyfsAdpy/ofu" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1) - 1)/ge' gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Sun Apr 24 10:12:37 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:42:37 +0530 Subject: Updated Hardening guide. In-Reply-To: <1114297738.9716.1.camel@bach> References: <1114297738.9716.1.camel@bach> Message-ID: <426B7115.1090007@redhat.com> tuxxer wrote: >Beat me up again guys and gals. ;-) > >http://members.cox.net/tuxxer >http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/fedora-hardening-guide-whole-en.xml > >XML also posted to bug #129957. > >-Charlie > Hello Charlie A quick review: http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-intro.html I think you should just drop the first two sentences. If the current list of vulnerabilities would just keep growing then it would imply that Linux is getting more insecure everyday " As more and more users start trying and using linux, it will become more and more important for the common user to know how to harden his or her system against these threats. The current list of vulnerabilities in linux systems will continue to grow as linux gains more momentum in the home desktop environment." http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/services-gui.html#services-gui-2 sendmail - Sendmail is a Mail Transport Agent. This deamon is also used to send critical mails to root users by default which also contains logwatch reports and other security related informatio. You typically should modify the MTA configuration to send mails to your normal user account instead of disabling it. http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/gui-update.html The "customizationn observation" note is better done as generic statement that applies to the whole of the document that everything is assumed to be in the default locations. http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/userconfig-cli.html#userconfig-gui " By default, the *User Manager* will filter all of the "unnecessary" users, by designating them as "default" or "system" users" The system users cannot be called as unnecessary. They just arent required typically. If a system user is definitely not required in any of the potential roles then thats a packaging and security bug http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/iptables-fw-config.html SELinux is totally unusable for all practial purposes in FC2. Just drop the following sentence which also contains a mispelled word. You might want to run your document through a spell checker after every major revision. "It will also allow you to change the SELinux settings, however that discussion is currentply outside of the scope of this document" http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-bibb-n-refs.html All of these websites should be hyperlinks regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Sun Apr 24 11:04:41 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 04:04:41 -0700 Subject: why o why In-Reply-To: <1114191942.4509.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42673539.5020403@hclcomnet.co.in> <42673DA7.4060903@redhat.com> <4267413E.5090401@hclcomnet.co.in> <42674CE2.1060607@redhat.com> <20050421125003.B5033@redline.comcast.net> <1114106397.5ace1c6d61580@mail.ph.utexas.edu> <20050421162601.A7268@redline.comcast.net> <1114127975.4742.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114190733.dc9a8ff37e997@mail.ph.utexas.edu> <1114191942.4509.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114340681.6234.172.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 13:45 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 12:25 -0500, Eric Rostetter wrote: > > Quoting "Paul W. Frields" : > > > > > [...snip...] > > > > > > Jeff Kinz wrote: > > > > Apparently you can submit a doc in just about any format you want. This > > > > policy was unknown to me (Something else to put into the FDOC Guide :) ) > > > > or I would have submitted my doc in html or text format. > > > > > > This is on the Wiki, but I think the Documentation Guide (as canon) > > > should probably contain a prominent statement to this effect as well. > > > > I've found no link from the web pages to the wiki, so either there is none, > > or it isn't obvious. Hence, the wiki is of no use to someone starting > > to participate in the project, as they don't know about the wiki. > > Excellent point, can you file a bug for this? We should get it changed > ASAP, unless there's a good reason for it not to be there... I can't > think what that might be. He attached this and many other suggestions to this bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=155642 I added some links to the Wiki and a few other of the suggestions, details in the bug report, changes live within the hour. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Sun Apr 24 11:12:37 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:42:37 +0530 Subject: Self Introduction: Rahul Sundaram Message-ID: <426B7F25.8020708@redhat.com> Hi Sorry for the delay in getting this done.... Rahul Sundaram Pune, India Red Hat Your goals in the Fedora Project * Task oriented documentation in doing typical stuff on Fedora * Desperate to see the Installation guide and other basic documentation completed before the release of FC4 * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? yes * Some videos in ogg theora format might be a interesting thing to try inorder to target non technical users Historical qualifications * Linux documentation project (tldp.org) and small help in various other projects * Not into programming currently but I consider myself to fairly knowledgeable in Linux * An active volunteer in LDP, wrote the LDP FAQ and few other docs and been reviewing a good number of documents in the list and taking part in all kinds of discusions there pub 1024D/1A24E6F3 2005-04-24 Rahul Sundaram (IRC nick: mether) Key fingerprint = 829A 1929 4F62 97DD D393 2ED4 E5DF BD66 1A24 E6F3 sub 1024g/9BD8985F 2005-04-24 [expires: 2006-04-24] regards Rahul From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Apr 24 13:36:50 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:36:50 +0100 Subject: Random "Topics" Question In-Reply-To: <1114300191.8664.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114299019.19974.3.camel@localhost> <1114300191.8664.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114349810.8090.64.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 19:49 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > And maybe this brings up an interesting question -- we may need a > tracker bug for editorial. Then we'll have: > > * Tracker for ideas without writers/owners > * Tracker for documents without editors assigned > * Tracker for documents in progress I'd actually rather keep documents out of Bugzilla until there is a proposal, a writer, an assigned editor and possibly even a draft, as this is looking really cluttered already: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=129784 Off the top of my head: - Random ideas are floated on list, and filed in a standard format in the Wiki for reference unless somebody commits to writing the document. They don't go any further without owners. - If somebody commits to writing a document they get an editor, to help them if required, and it's listed on the Wiki as started. - When a draft has been posted that the editor and the list approve the doc gets a bug, and is listed as in progress on tracker bug 129807. Perhaps the CVS module gets created at this point. - If no draft appears after a period of time the editor can declare the project dead and it's demoted back to the random ideas page on the Wiki. i.e. a doc isn't "real" for Bugzilla until there is an actual draft, so that we don't end up with increasing amounts of dead stuff on tracker bugs. This sort of implies more editors, but the editor/mentor/case officer/yes-or-no-person wouldn't need CVS to take document to the initial draft. From gareth at fedoraforum.org Sun Apr 24 14:14:17 2005 From: gareth at fedoraforum.org (Gareth Russell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:14:17 +0100 Subject: Self Introduction: Gareth Russell Message-ID: <1114352057.19405.31.camel@zcd-123-42.sns.nottingham.ac.uk> Hey folks, I decided that it was about time I got involved with the documentation project so here's my introduction: 1. Full Legal Name: Gareth Thomas Russell 2. Country, City: England, Nottingham (University) OR England, Rural Suffolk (Home) 3. Profession or Student status: 1st Year Politics BA at the University of Nottingham (http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/) 4. Company or School University of Nottingham 5. Your Goals in the Fedora Project - Comprehensive range of detailed easy to follow documentation. - Attract more users to Fedora - Help those less fortunate than myself, i.e. newbies Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? Yes 6. Historical Qualifications - What other projects have you worked on in the past? I'm an Administrator of FedoraForum.org. I've written several articles for OSDir.com and MadPenguin.org I've contributed to the FedoraFAQ (http://www.fedorafaq.org/) - What computer languages and skills do you know? Not really a programmer. But am quite skilled with general linux administration. - Why should we trust you? I'm already involved in the fedora community via the running of FedoraForum.org and have been for the last 15 months. 7. GPG KEYID and Fingerprint. My KeyID is: A126ED91 My fingerprint is: 93CA 9DB3 4A08 3CDA 113B 3076 4178 3862 A126 ED91 It expires 2007-04-24 Well, thats it for now. -- Gareth Russell http://www.fedoraforum.org/ gpg fingerprint: 93CA 9DB3 4A08 3CDA 113B 3076 4178 3862 A126 ED91 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Sun Apr 24 15:07:15 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:07:15 +0100 Subject: Self Introduction: Gareth Russell In-Reply-To: <1114352057.19405.31.camel@zcd-123-42.sns.nottingham.ac.uk> References: <1114352057.19405.31.camel@zcd-123-42.sns.nottingham.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200504241607.19057.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Sunday 24 Apr 2005 15:14, Gareth Russell wrote: > Hey folks, > > I decided that it was about time I got involved with the documentation > project so here's my introduction: > About time!!!! ;-) -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 21:43:45 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:43:45 -0400 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 Message-ID: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> I have some rough notes and an outline up on the wiki for comments and suggestions. I tried to incorporate as much of the recent f-docs-l threads, Bugzilla entries (thanks Eric R.), etc. as I could find or recall. http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocumentationGuide You'll find notes for the new example tutorial up there as well. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Apr 24 22:43:44 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:43:44 -0500 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 In-Reply-To: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050424174344.0d6af79d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > I have some rough notes and an outline up on the wiki for comments and > suggestions. Paul, I can do the sandbox script if you like. I'll put the "fdp-sandbox" script into our CVS. Folks can then download it an: $ fdp-sandbox my-sandbox $ cd my-sandbox $ cd part-1 $ vi foo.xml $ cvs diff foo.xml or whatever. The sandbox will have its own internal CVS repository so a "cvs -d/path/to/repository" or "CVSROOT=$HOME/my-sandbox" won't be necesssary. That sound like what you had in mind? Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Apr 24 22:16:17 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:16:17 -0500 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 In-Reply-To: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050424171617.1196b53a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocumentationGuide > > You'll find notes for the new example tutorial up there as well. I think C.5 should be "Authoring Your Document". That's less imtimidating to potential authors since we will accept a new document in _any_ format and help with transforming it into DocBook. See, learning DocBook isn't a prerequisite -- it's the lingua franca of the FDP but you can learn as you go. This part is a sales pitch. Put the DocBook details down in III.F "DocBook Without Fear". What'cha think? Do you want me to surgery the Wiki? Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 00:14:42 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:14:42 -0400 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 In-Reply-To: <20050424171617.1196b53a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050424171617.1196b53a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1114388082.4742.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-24 at 17:16 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocumentationGuide > > > > You'll find notes for the new example tutorial up there as well. > > I think C.5 should be "Authoring Your Document". That's less > imtimidating to potential authors since we will accept a new > document in _any_ format and help with transforming it into DocBook. > See, learning DocBook isn't a prerequisite -- it's the lingua franca > of the FDP but you can learn as you go. This part is a sales pitch. > Put the DocBook details down in III.F "DocBook Without Fear". > > What'cha think? Do you want me to surgery the Wiki? I came up with a better arrangement that also incorporates another piece of Karsten's previous process work -- a document lifecycle plan. Keep in mind the Guide is not just for the authors, but also for reference of editors and such. But I agree completely that the "get involved" section needed to have that part axed, and I did so. I put the DocBook pitch down in the tools section where it belongs. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 00:20:05 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:20:05 -0400 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 In-Reply-To: <20050424174344.0d6af79d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050424174344.0d6af79d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1114388405.4742.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-24 at 17:43 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > I have some rough notes and an outline up on the wiki for comments and > > suggestions. > > Paul, > > I can do the sandbox script if you like. > > I'll put the "fdp-sandbox" script into our CVS. Folks can then > download it an: > > $ fdp-sandbox my-sandbox > $ cd my-sandbox > $ cd part-1 > $ vi foo.xml > $ cvs diff foo.xml > > or whatever. The sandbox will have its own internal CVS repository > so a "cvs -d/path/to/repository" or "CVSROOT=$HOME/my-sandbox" won't > be necesssary. > > That sound like what you had in mind? It's close. The important part is that the tutorial mimic the actual FDP CVS checkout in important ways -- i.e. a common folder, xsl, css, etc., so that the entire toolchain will run *independently* of actual network CVS access. Let's solicit some more ideas before putting fingers to keys. There's not a rush because there are other elements of the new guide that have to be drafted before this gets underway. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Mon Apr 25 02:05:08 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:05:08 -0500 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 In-Reply-To: <1114388405.4742.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050424174344.0d6af79d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1114388405.4742.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050424210508.50f60044.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > I can do the sandbox script if you like. > > That sound like what you had in mind? > It's close. The important part is that the tutorial mimic the actual > FDP CVS checkout in important ways -- i.e. a common folder, xsl, css, > etc., so that the entire toolchain will run *independently* of actual > network CVS access. Let's solicit some more ideas before putting > fingers to keys. Yeah, I know. Just volunteering. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gareth at fedoraforum.org Mon Apr 25 07:40:51 2005 From: gareth at fedoraforum.org (Gareth Russell) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:40:51 +0100 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 In-Reply-To: <20050424171617.1196b53a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050424171617.1196b53a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1114414851.30183.8.camel@zcd-123-42.sns.nottingham.ac.uk> On Sun, 2005-04-24 at 17:16 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > I think C.5 should be "Authoring Your Document". That's less > imtimidating to potential authors since we will accept a new > document in _any_ format and help with transforming it into DocBook. > See, learning DocBook isn't a prerequisite -- it's the lingua franca > of the FDP but you can learn as you go. This part is a sales pitch. > Put the DocBook details down in III.F "DocBook Without Fear". I have to agree with that. -- Gareth Russell http://www.fedoraforum.org/ gpg fingerprint: 93CA 9DB3 4A08 3CDA 113B 3076 4178 3862 A126 ED91 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 11:50:31 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:50:31 -0400 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 In-Reply-To: <20050424210508.50f60044.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050424174344.0d6af79d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1114388405.4742.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050424210508.50f60044.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1114429831.4575.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-24 at 21:05 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > > I can do the sandbox script if you like. > > > That sound like what you had in mind? > > It's close. The important part is that the tutorial mimic the actual > > FDP CVS checkout in important ways -- i.e. a common folder, xsl, css, > > etc., so that the entire toolchain will run *independently* of actual > > network CVS access. Let's solicit some more ideas before putting > > fingers to keys. > > Yeah, I know. Just volunteering. You're definitely "on call" for that part... I added it to my Wiki notes. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Mon Apr 25 13:56:30 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:56:30 -0500 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 In-Reply-To: <1114429831.4575.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050424174344.0d6af79d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1114388405.4742.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050424210508.50f60044.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1114429831.4575.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050425085630.74ce74c1.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > You're definitely "on call" for that part... I added it to my Wiki > notes. Should be a no-brainer: #!/bin/sh # Where are we playing? sandbox="$1" repo=${sandbox}/Repo,man # Create necessary infrastructure mkdir -p ${repo} cd ${sandbox} cvs -d ${repo} init # Populate with FDP essentials for x in documentation-guide example-tutorial do cvs -d :pserver:anonymous at rhlinux.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS co \ -d ${x}-tmp ${x} find ${x}-tmp -name CVS -print | xargs rm -rf ( cd ${x}-tmp cvs -d ${repo} import -m"Imported ${x}" ${x} fdp-sandbox initial ) cvs -d ${repo} co ${x} rm -rf ${x}-tmp done # All's well that ends well. is all that's needed, except for error checking. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Mon Apr 25 18:31:37 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:31:37 +0100 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 In-Reply-To: <20050425085630.74ce74c1.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114429831.4575.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050425085630.74ce74c1.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <200504251931.41431.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Monday 25 Apr 2005 14:56, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > You're definitely "on call" for that part... I added it to my Wiki > > notes. > > Should be a no-brainer: > > #!/bin/sh > # Where are we playing? > sandbox="$1" > repo=${sandbox}/Repo,man > # Create necessary infrastructure > mkdir -p ${repo} > cd ${sandbox} > cvs -d ${repo} init > # Populate with FDP essentials > for x in documentation-guide example-tutorial > do > cvs -d :pserver:anonymous at rhlinux.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS co \ > -d ${x}-tmp ${x} > find ${x}-tmp -name CVS -print | xargs rm -rf > ( > cd ${x}-tmp > cvs -d ${repo} import -m"Imported ${x}" ${x} fdp-sandbox initial > ) > cvs -d ${repo} co ${x} > rm -rf ${x}-tmp > done > # All's well that ends well. > > > is all that's needed, except for error checking. Yes, as with most scripts this comes last ;-) > > Cheers -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Mon Apr 25 19:01:46 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:01:46 -0500 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 In-Reply-To: <200504251931.41431.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> References: <1114379025.4750.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114429831.4575.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050425085630.74ce74c1.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <200504251931.41431.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <20050425140146.6c7ac94d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Gavin Henry , spake thus: > Yes, as with most scripts this comes last ;-) I usually omit it because it confuses the presentation. It also makes a good exercise for the student. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Tue Apr 26 20:38:14 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:38:14 -0500 Subject: Self-Introduction: Eric Jon Rostetter Message-ID: <1114547894.cdb08fa3482e3@mail.ph.utexas.edu> 1. Full legal name Eric Jon Rostetter 2. City, Country Austin, Texas, USA 3. Profession or Student status Computer Programmer, Full Time 4. Company or School Department of Physics, The University of Texas at Austin 5. Your goals in the Fedora Project * What do you want to write about? What ever strikes my fancy, if anything. * What other documentation do you want to see published? As much as possible. * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? Sure, why not. I'm great at picking nits. * Anything else special? I really want to help co-ordinate Fedora Docs Project with the Fedora Legacy Project. I'm manage the web site and docs for the Fedora Legacy Project. I'd like to make the two groups work together to the benefit of both. 6. Historical qualifications * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? I work with the Horde Project (www.horde.org) (docs, faq, programming, etc) I work with the Fedora Legacy Project (wwww.fedoralegacy.org) (web, docs, QA, etc) We run a "Homework Service" here at UT Austin. I help maintain the departmental web server and my groups web pages here in the Physics Department (www.ph.utexas.edu). Used to work on many other projects in a previous life many moons ago (Minitab, NBS Pascal Compiler, VMS Ted/Sed editor, etc). * What level and type of computer skills do you have? Can write decent docs. Can do web pages, including html, php, xml/xslt, javascript. Do the usual programming and system admin stuff. * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc. See above. * What makes you an excellent match for the project? My participation in the Fedora Legacy Project, and my desire to help the two projects co-ordinate docs between them, transition docs from one to another, etc. 7. GPG KEYID and fingerprint pub 1024D/49C7A0F2 2004-02-06 Eric Jon Rostetter Key fingerprint = E4E7 E674 2BCA 14CC 54CF 13C9 E236 516E 49C7 A0F2 sub 1024g/BBFD8C0C 2004-02-06 -- Eric Rostetter From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 26 23:03:47 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 16:03:47 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Eric Jon Rostetter In-Reply-To: <1114547894.cdb08fa3482e3@mail.ph.utexas.edu> References: <1114547894.cdb08fa3482e3@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <1114556627.6234.250.camel@erato.phig.org> Welcome, and thanks already for your help with the FDP webpages. If you are interested in helping maintain the FDP pages, take a look at the source at: CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous at cvs.fedora.redhat.com:/cvs/fedora The module is called 'web'. At the FDSCo meeting today we discussed the idea of providing editing services for the entirety of the Fedora website. While we are investigating that, you can get your feet wet with our own pages. Since that is in a CVS repository we are not in control of, submitting patches to the bug report will do for now: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=155642 - Karsten On Tue, 2005-04-26 at 15:38 -0500, Eric Rostetter wrote: > 1. Full legal name > > Eric Jon Rostetter > > 2. City, Country > > Austin, Texas, USA > > 3. Profession or Student status > > Computer Programmer, Full Time > > 4. Company or School > > Department of Physics, The University of Texas at Austin > > 5. Your goals in the Fedora Project > > * What do you want to write about? > > What ever strikes my fancy, if anything. > > * What other documentation do you want to see published? > > As much as possible. > > * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? > > Sure, why not. I'm great at picking nits. > > * Anything else special? > > I really want to help co-ordinate Fedora Docs Project with the > Fedora Legacy Project. I'm manage the web site and docs for the > Fedora Legacy Project. I'd like to make the two groups work together > to the benefit of both. > > 6. Historical qualifications > > * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? > > I work with the Horde Project (www.horde.org) > (docs, faq, programming, etc) > I work with the Fedora Legacy Project (wwww.fedoralegacy.org) > (web, docs, QA, etc) > We run a "Homework Service" here at UT Austin. > I help maintain the departmental web server and my groups web pages > here in the Physics Department (www.ph.utexas.edu). > Used to work on many other projects in a previous life many moons ago > (Minitab, NBS Pascal Compiler, VMS Ted/Sed editor, etc). > > * What level and type of computer skills do you have? > > Can write decent docs. Can do web pages, including html, php, xml/xslt, > javascript. Do the usual programming and system admin stuff. > > * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface > design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc. > > See above. > > * What makes you an excellent match for the project? > > My participation in the Fedora Legacy Project, and my desire to help > the two projects co-ordinate docs between them, transition docs from > one to another, etc. > > 7. GPG KEYID and fingerprint > > pub 1024D/49C7A0F2 2004-02-06 Eric Jon Rostetter > Key fingerprint = E4E7 E674 2BCA 14CC 54CF 13C9 E236 516E 49C7 A0F2 > sub 1024g/BBFD8C0C 2004-02-06 > > -- > Eric Rostetter > -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From admin at buddhalinux.com Wed Apr 27 01:07:30 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:07:30 -0500 Subject: Self-Introduction: Thomas R. Jones Message-ID: <200504262007.31365.admin@buddhalinux.com> Full Legal Name:: Thomas Riley Jones Jr. City, State:: Bowling Green, Kentucky Profession:: Security Analyst Company:: Weyerhaeuser Goals:: What do I want to write about?: Information security, kernel, and/or networking related topics. What other documentation do I want to see published?: I am not very particular as long as it is contains correct content and meets the needs of end-users. Do I want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy?: I have edited and reviewed various Linux documentation. Currently, I am a technical reviewer for a new book entitled "GnuPG for the desperate" due from the No Starch Press publishing entity. I am open to editing and/or technical editor of topics within my skillset. Anything else special?: Member of the IEEE Information Assurance Task Force Member of the IEEE Security and Privacy Technical Committee I formerly was the administrator of the Linux-Howtos.com domain. Historical qualifications:: What other projects or writing have I worked on in the past?: Security Document Initiative - (extracted from my website http://www.buddhalinux.com) "The Security Document Initiative is an implementation of the domain of applied cryptography as it relates to an XML defined and regulated security mechanism and the creation of a security infrastructure to protect information systems and resources." Osiris Host Integrity System. SuSE FAQ. Numerous Linux Howtos now maintained by the LDP. What level and type of computer skills do I have?: Experienced Administrator. Career direction into a variety of XML applications and their use in a security application. What other skills do I have that might be applicable?: 5 years experience in bash programming. Developed numerous init scripts for the SuSE Linux distribution. C++ development experience. What makes me an excellent match for the project?: I have almost 3 years XML/Docbook experience; and have a great desire to help the Linux, Fedora, and Open Source community. I believe whole-heartedly in the Open Source Initiative and advocate its utilization in all aspects of computing. GPG KEYID and fingerprint:: pub 1024D/57BF9042 2004-12-26 Thomas Jones (The Buddha Linux Group) Key fingerprint = 5264 BCA1 6059 57A8 58E5 7F04 A11E 5C13 57BF 9042 uid Thomas R. Jones (IEEE Computer Society Account) uid Thomas Jones (The Buddha Linux Group) sub 1024g/5EDEFE5D 2004-12-26 As you can see I am heavily oriented towards the security aspect of Fedora. But, I would be more than happy to author and/or review any topic if requested. Thank for your time and look forward working with all of you. Thomas Jones From tuxxer at cox.net Wed Apr 27 06:29:10 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:29:10 -0700 Subject: Self Introduction: Just because it wasn't a practice when I joined! ;-) Message-ID: <1114583350.19837.60.camel@localhost> 1. Full legal name Charles C Heselton 2. City, Country San Diego, CA, USA 3. Profession or Student status Security Engineer 4. Company or School Raytheon 5. Your goals in the Fedora Project * What do you want to write about? Security pertinent topics. * What other documentation do you want to see published? Security related documentation. ;-) * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? Sure. * Anything else special? I believe in the open source community and I want to contribute wherever, and however, I can. Plus, I like to drink beer. ;-) 6. Historical qualifications * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? Mainly proprietary stuff, SOP's etc. * What level and type of computer skills do you have? Gimme a scale. ;-) I can script (perl, shell, etc.), write web pages, etc. I've been in the industry for about 8 years, security specifically for about 3 years.... I've been working with Linux since Caldera OpenLinux 3.2?? (circa 1999-ish) * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? Not sure.....don't know fully what the requirements are yet. * What makes you an excellent match for the project? I'm interested, I want to contribute, and I have time to spare. (well.....some. ;-) 7. GPG KEYID and fingerprint pub 1024D/F1E11EA1 2004-05-02 Key fingerprint = 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 uid Tuxxer (Tuxxer) sub 1024g/A168232E 2004-05-02 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 27 21:14:52 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:14:52 -0700 Subject: toolchain master tracker bug Message-ID: <1114636493.6234.275.camel@erato.phig.org> When you expect that an area will get a lot of attention so that you need to do some project planning around it, it's nice to have a tracker bug. This bug is put in the "Bug ABCXYZ blocks" field. This allows you to create a dependency tree. This is the tracker bug for feature requests and bugs against the FDP toolchain: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=fdp-toolchain-traqr If you like numbers, because you'll need to use them too: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=156150 - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 27 21:24:47 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:24:47 -0700 Subject: HTML chunks/no-chunks changes Message-ID: <1114637087.6234.281.camel@erato.phig.org> James Laska (jlaska at redhat) submitted the following changes to our XSL to support no-chunks in HTML: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=156151 This was done for qa-docs work, but can apply to us. I've got this organized into a bugzilla, but don't have the time today to wrap my brain around the XSL changes. So I'm interested in feedback from you all. thx - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 27 21:55:17 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:55:17 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [LINK] Open source projects for those on the dole (fwd)] Message-ID: <1114638918.6234.294.camel@erato.phig.org> Anyone in Australia want to see if there are potential doc writers in this program? DocBook/XML is much easier to learn than most programming, is a real world skill, and we sure could use docs from regular users for regular users. Open source projects for those on the dole Angus Kidman APRIL 26, 2005 The Australian http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,15083420%5E15317%5E%5Enbv%5E15306,00.html A NEW "hack for the dole" scheme will allow unemployed people to meet their mutual obligation requirements by working on open-source software projects. Linux Australia has gained approval for the scheme being launched as part of its CommunityCode.org project to encourage software development. It is trying to attract skilled enthusiasts to work as mentors. Project developer Matthew Palmer said he had begun working with a mother who was developing educational software for children. He said early interest in the project, launched last week at Linux.conf.au 2005 in Canberra, had been strong. "I've talked to heaps of people and they've all been really keen on it," he said. As well as coding, other tasks under the scheme could include documenting and art. As a community organisation, Linux Australia meets government requirements for organising mutual-obligation projects for the long-term unemployed. Mr Palmer said, although Linux was easy to use as a desktop operating system, one goal for the Community Code.org project was to make contributing software modifications an equally straightforward task for everybody. -- We have yet to see the full impact of the open, global marketplace. By 1997 all raw materials and technology will be available everywhere in the world. The only differences between countries and markets will be skill levels, education, and the level of empowerment of the workplace. -- Sydney Smith Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link at mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link _______________________________________________ Memo-list mailing list Memo-list at redhat.com http://post-office.corp.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/memo-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From admin at buddhalinux.com Wed Apr 27 23:09:31 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:09:31 -0500 Subject: Comments on Documentation Idea Message-ID: <42701BAB.6060402@buddhalinux.com> Hello all, I have been reviewing the progress of the Fedora project for over a year now. Honestly, I was a little reluctant to transition to another distribution. I had been a mainstay of SuSE since release 7.0; mainly because of the security oriented nature of the product(s). Now that I've made the plunge and am loving it; I want to provide my services to the community where I can. Here goes my idea: What about a documentation suite entitled --- Fedora Security Series? Here's a brief vision statement. The purpose of the series is to provide a security-related orientation of a great multitude of topics and how they relate to the Fedora distribution and its role in a network infrastructure. For instance, the first couple topics that I would like to write would be: - Risk Assessment of a Fedora Core Installation Scheme - Risk Analysis of an Desktop Installation - Risk Analysis of an Server Installation - Policy Development in a Multiuser System - etc...... As you can see, the topics are sequential in structure. Which alleviates any issues due to end-user initiated problems. i.e. in order to develop a complete operating system risk analysis and determine a control solution(s); you must first perform the risk assessment to determine probable threat agents, and safeguards The intended audience would be Power-Users, and individuals with Information Technology experience. However, with a good content model it should be easily understood by the general user. This series should be authored by individuals with relevant security experience. They don't need to be CISSP certified; just have first hand knowledge of the topic. I am inclined to get the series started in the right direction; so I would like to write the first few topics for a good base. Then it's up to the community! These should all be included in a series of related themes. I can start the first topic as soon as the community accepts the idea. I personally think this is great idea (of source I would!); but don't want to work on this idea; if it undermines the ideas of other team members. Thank you for your time. Thomas Jones From sopwith at redhat.com Wed Apr 27 23:28:37 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Comments on Documentation Idea In-Reply-To: <42701BAB.6060402@buddhalinux.com> References: <42701BAB.6060402@buddhalinux.com> Message-ID: Hi Thomas, You don't need any approval from anyone - if it is something you are excited about, just go ahead and do it! :-) If turns out to be valuable to others, that will be self-evident when you publicize the results of your writing to the Fedora community. As far as continuing the project goes, I'm not sure how many people out there would be willing to do the work besides yourself (it's not just something you can drop on people's laps and expect them to keep maintaining). But don't let that stop you from taking on the challenge and seeing where things go - there's little downside :) Good luck, -- Elliot On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Thomas Jones wrote: > What about a documentation suite entitled --- Fedora Security Series? > > Here's a brief vision statement. > > The purpose of the series is to provide a security-related orientation > of a great multitude of topics and how they relate to the Fedora > distribution and its role in a network infrastructure. > > For instance, the first couple topics that I would like to write would be: > - Risk Assessment of a Fedora Core Installation Scheme > - Risk Analysis of an Desktop Installation > - Risk Analysis of an Server Installation > - Policy Development in a Multiuser System > - etc...... > > As you can see, the topics are sequential in structure. Which alleviates > any issues due to end-user initiated problems. > > i.e. in order to develop a complete operating system risk analysis and > determine a control solution(s); you must first perform the risk > assessment to determine probable threat agents, and safeguards > > The intended audience would be Power-Users, and individuals with > Information Technology experience. However, with a good content model it > should be easily understood by the general user. > > This series should be authored by individuals with relevant security > experience. They don't need to be CISSP certified; just have first hand > knowledge of the topic. > > I am inclined to get the series started in the right direction; so I > would like to write the first few topics for a good base. Then it's up > to the community! > > These should all be included in a series of related themes. > > I can start the first topic as soon as the community accepts the idea. I > personally think this is great idea (of source I would!); but don't want > to work on this idea; if it undermines the ideas of other team members. From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 23:42:19 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:42:19 -0400 Subject: toolchain master tracker bug In-Reply-To: <1114636493.6234.275.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114636493.6234.275.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114645339.4742.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 14:14 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > When you expect that an area will get a lot of attention so that you > need to do some project planning around it, it's nice to have a tracker > bug. This bug is put in the "Bug ABCXYZ blocks" field. This allows you > to create a dependency tree. > > This is the tracker bug for feature requests and bugs against the FDP > toolchain: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=fdp-toolchain-traqr > > If you like numbers, because you'll need to use them too: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=156150 Karsten, could you edit this bug, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=131160 which is the Documentation Guide work tracker bug, to give it an id tag? Thanks! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 27 23:50:06 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:50:06 -0700 Subject: [RFC] dumping the CED in favor of local variables Message-ID: <1114645806.6234.317.camel@erato.phig.org> I'd like to recommend we dump the usage of CED files in favor of the local variables designation. The CED file is a pre-compiled DTD subset. http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/s1-emacs-cedfile.html The only noticeable change that matters is that indenting is different by two characters overall. It's really no big thing to reindent entire files, or sections of them to avoid blocks. The CED files technically need to be recompiled with the introduction of each new tag. They are a hassle to load everytime you load the document. The local variables will load the parent file in the buffer, which is convenient, and does all this automatically when you open the file. You put one of these at the bottom of each XML file: The small pain of converting our docs will be more than made up for in the not-so-long run. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From admin at buddhalinux.com Wed Apr 27 23:54:35 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:54:35 -0500 Subject: Comments on Documentation Idea In-Reply-To: References: <42701BAB.6060402@buddhalinux.com> Message-ID: <4270263B.9010602@buddhalinux.com> Elliot Lee wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > You don't need any approval from anyone - if it is something you are > excited about, just go ahead and do it! :-) If turns out to be valuable to > others, that will be self-evident when you publicize the results of your > writing to the Fedora community. > > As far as continuing the project goes, I'm not sure how many people out > there would be willing to do the work besides yourself (it's not just > something you can drop on people's laps and expect them to keep > maintaining). But don't let that stop you from taking on the challenge and > seeing where things go - there's little downside :) > > Good luck, > -- Elliot Thanks for the words of encouragement Elliot! I didn't mean to convey that I would just 'drop the series'. I just don't want to step on any toes given my short time writing for the Fedora project. Actually, I am fine with sole authorship. I just wanted to provide the idea and bounce it around for comments. If no objections, i'll start working up a document structure tomorrow. Thanks again and I look forward to working with you. Thomas From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 00:02:51 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:02:51 -0400 Subject: Comments on Documentation Idea In-Reply-To: References: <42701BAB.6060402@buddhalinux.com> Message-ID: <1114646571.4742.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Thomas Jones wrote: > > What about a documentation suite entitled --- Fedora Security Series? > > > > Here's a brief vision statement. > > > > The purpose of the series is to provide a security-related orientation > > of a great multitude of topics and how they relate to the Fedora > > distribution and its role in a network infrastructure. > > > > For instance, the first couple topics that I would like to write would be: > > - Risk Assessment of a Fedora Core Installation Scheme > > - Risk Analysis of an Desktop Installation > > - Risk Analysis of an Server Installation > > - Policy Development in a Multiuser System > > - etc...... > > > > As you can see, the topics are sequential in structure. Which alleviates > > any issues due to end-user initiated problems. > > > > i.e. in order to develop a complete operating system risk analysis and > > determine a control solution(s); you must first perform the risk > > assessment to determine probable threat agents, and safeguards > > > > The intended audience would be Power-Users, and individuals with > > Information Technology experience. However, with a good content model it > > should be easily understood by the general user. > > > > This series should be authored by individuals with relevant security > > experience. They don't need to be CISSP certified; just have first hand > > knowledge of the topic. > > > > I am inclined to get the series started in the right direction; so I > > would like to write the first few topics for a good base. Then it's up > > to the community! > > > > These should all be included in a series of related themes. > > > > I can start the first topic as soon as the community accepts the idea. I > > personally think this is great idea (of source I would!); but don't want > > to work on this idea; if it undermines the ideas of other team members. On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 19:28 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > You don't need any approval from anyone - if it is something you are > excited about, just go ahead and do it! :-) If turns out to be valuable to > others, that will be self-evident when you publicize the results of your > writing to the Fedora community. > > As far as continuing the project goes, I'm not sure how many people out > there would be willing to do the work besides yourself (it's not just > something you can drop on people's laps and expect them to keep > maintaining). But don't let that stop you from taking on the challenge and > seeing where things go - there's little downside :) Charles Heselton (tuxxer) on this list has begun a "Fedora Hardening" tutorial with which you might be inclined to assist. He is working on at least a couple documents, and may appreciate the help! I think having a team of security writers would be a great thing, provided the work can be scoped to do the following: (1) accommodate frequent maintenance based on Fedora Core's rapid release schedule; (2) be Fedora-specific enough to give value over some of the other more standardized security guides; and (3) survive contributor churn. Regardless of whether you choose to work on the Fedora Hardening document, why don't you choose one of the topics you list for a tutorial (article format), and begin with a barebones draft. That would be a great way to introduce your vision for the series. Once you're happy enough with it to bring it on-list, just post a link for comments. You will probably want to read the current Quick Start Guide: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ There's a bit of dust while we make building improvements, but this should help you get your feet wet. (Pardon the mixed metaphor, I have to go put the kids to bed!) Thanks, and we're looking forward to your participation. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 28 00:09:58 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:09:58 -0700 Subject: [RFC] dumping the CED in favor of local variables In-Reply-To: <1114645806.6234.317.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114645806.6234.317.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114646998.6234.321.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 16:50 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > I'd like to recommend we dump the usage of CED files in favor of the > local variables designation. The CED file is a pre-compiled DTD subset. For the record, this is a *complete reversal* of my previous position. If Dave Pawson is lurking out there, he can laugh at me. The rest of you who care can swift-kick when you see/meet me next. After working with the local variable, I am willing to undergo the pain to change over to it. If there is even any pain. The only problem is _mixing_ the two formats. If I write using the Local Variable and you load the CED file, our indenting will be off. At the least, diffs will be noisy. > > > The small pain of converting our docs will be more than made up for in > the not-so-long run. > > - Karsten The guidance I've received thus far has leaned towards creating a single, monolithic document, where possible and practical. I have made more of an effort to keep my (single-author) documents this way. Will this change really make a difference if you're writing a single file? Is it even applicable? -Charlie -- -tuxxer echo "uvyyfsAdpy/ofu" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1) - 1)/ge' gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 12:43:06 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:43:06 -0400 Subject: [RFC] dumping the CED in favor of local variables In-Reply-To: <1114646998.6234.321.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114645806.6234.317.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114646998.6234.321.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114692186.4506.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 17:09 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 16:50 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > I'd like to recommend we dump the usage of CED files in favor of the > > local variables designation. The CED file is a pre-compiled DTD subset. > > For the record, this is a *complete reversal* of my previous position. > If Dave Pawson is lurking out there, he can laugh at me. The rest of > you who care can swift-kick when you see/meet me next. > > After working with the local variable, I am willing to undergo the pain > to change over to it. If there is even any pain. > > The only problem is _mixing_ the two formats. If I write using the > Local Variable and you load the CED file, our indenting will be off. At > the least, diffs will be noisy. > > > > > > > The small pain of converting our docs will be more than made up for in > > the not-so-long run. > > The guidance I've received thus far has leaned towards creating a > single, monolithic document, where possible and practical. I have made > more of an effort to keep my (single-author) documents this way. Will > this change really make a difference if you're writing a single file? > Is it even applicable? It won't make any difference for single-file tutorials. Writers working on one of those can just hit C-c C-p (if using Emacs) to parse the DTD after loading the document. No muss, no fuss. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 28 19:07:14 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:07:14 -0700 Subject: Kate - another editor Message-ID: <1114715234.6234.384.camel@erato.phig.org> Just had someone point me at Kate from KDE. It looks like quite a decent XML editor. It ships as part of the kdebase package. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 28 21:26:04 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:26:04 -0700 Subject: Comments on Documentation Idea In-Reply-To: <4270263B.9010602@buddhalinux.com> References: <42701BAB.6060402@buddhalinux.com> <4270263B.9010602@buddhalinux.com> Message-ID: <1114723564.6234.409.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 18:54 -0500, Thomas Jones wrote: > I didn't mean to convey that I would just 'drop the series'. I just > don't want to step on any toes given my short time writing for the > Fedora project. You're doing great, thanks. This morning (err ... yesterday morning by the time I am sending this), I was contemplating asking you to do a technical edit of tuxxer's Hardening Guide: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-April/msg00299.html I'm outclassed in this particular area, somewhat. It would also give you a chance to become familiar with the other security doc in the works. It doesn't seem to me that your idea and this guide are mutually exclusive. As far as your idea in general, it sounds like a very good one. I've envisioned sets of Fedora docs tied together by common theme. It would be an awesome service to the community to have proper Fedora security guidelines and practices. It also sounds as if your ideas are generic enough to be easier to maintain across versions of Fedora Core. In other words, the ideas are timeless, and the documents don't necessarily contain procedures or formulas that need updating. That sort of work would happen in docs such as the Hardening Guide, SELinux Apache tutorial, etc. Have I interpreted this correctly? > Actually, I am fine with sole authorship. I just wanted to provide the > idea and bounce it around for comments. > > If no objections, i'll start working up a document structure tomorrow. > > Thanks again and I look forward to working with you. Sounds good, looking forward over here as well. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 28 21:31:00 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:31:00 -0700 Subject: docs CVS commits - new list Message-ID: <1114723860.6234.417.camel@erato.phig.org> Until it was recently changed, our CVS commit messages were being copied to a list for Fedora Extras. To highlight our own signal, I changed the commit messages to come to fedora-docs-commits. Currently our commit level is low, but as it ramps up, we are going to be glad that this is not coming to f-docs-l. :) https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-commits This is an important part of having an open CVS, seeing what everyone is doing. Mistakes will be caught more quickly, and it will be easier to learn how and why writers and editors do as they do. For example, in the past I've collaborated with other writers on the same XML files, and I could watch the changelog messages to see what people did and why they did it (presuming their log was useful). I would know right away if I needed to fix anything. If you are writing or editing for the project, it is truly necessary to be on the commits list. cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From admin at buddhalinux.com Thu Apr 28 23:13:56 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:13:56 -0500 Subject: Kate - another editor In-Reply-To: <1114715234.6234.384.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114715234.6234.384.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <42716E34.4040400@buddhalinux.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > Just had someone point me at Kate from KDE. It looks like quite a > decent XML editor. > > It ships as part of the kdebase package. > > - Karsten > Kate is the editor that I prefer. You probably expected that given the fact that I previously wrote khelpcenter docs, huh?! ;) If you need assistance generating one for your authoring projects; I may be of some help. Here's some quick pointers that I learned as I went: To use the XML Completion plugin for FC, you will need to have a Meta DTD generated for the specific XML Markup Language and version. I've just finished generating a "Meta DTD" for utilization with the docbook version 4.2-1.0-25 DTD. In order to successfully generate a Meta DTD you must have access to the DTDParse utility by Norman Walsh. I intended to build a quick third-party fedora rpm for my website; but haven't got around to it yet. I'll add it to the list. ;P Although, it is good practice to build this meta document for future reference. It probably isn't a bad idea to also generate a seperate rpm with the neccessary contents just for FC doc authors. There are a few "gotchas" when compiling Meta DTD using dtdparse. The standard docbook produces fatal errors; and thusly so does all derivative DTDs. There is an incompatability between the parsing utility and a few docbook tokens. These will need to be remedied before a successful Meta file is generated. After that you are home free and can author till your hearts content!;) HTH. Thomas From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 29 05:44:28 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:44:28 -0700 Subject: CVS now open Message-ID: <1114753469.6234.460.camel@erato.phig.org> Hi fellow writers and editors: We are mighty pleased to announce the opening of CVS for the Docs Project. Our intention is to have the lowest barrier to entry possible. After getting our grubby little hands, uh, I mean, fine Elven fists on the keys a few weeks ago, we have been formulating some philosophy and guidelines to help make our experience nicer. ## Quick Version of How To Get CVS Access: * Read the CVSAccess guidelines Wiki page[1] * Do a proper self-introduction to the list * Show that you have something to put in CVS: as an editor by picking something to edit, as a writer through producing a draft or working outline * Use the proper process[2] to get an account on cvs.fedora.redhat.com [3]. Put yourself in the 'cvsdocs' group and wait for approval. [1] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage [2] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/CvsAccess [3] https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ This all presumes you have read the Documentation Quick Start[4] and are familiar with the Fedora Project Documentation Guide[5]. Don't worry about the DocBook/XML stuff right now. :) [4] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ [5] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ ## What Philosophy? Golden Rule in effect. Treat others and their directories in CVS as you would have them treat you and your files. Only truly vital resources will have CVS ACLs. You are on your best behavior as a community member to Do The Right Thing. Don't put any illegal stuff in CVS. That would be BAD. Don't attempt (or succeed) in cracking the CVS host systems, or use it as a launchpad for crack attempts. That would be VERY BAD. ## Who Gets to Go Where? Read the CVSAccess[1] page for details. The quick version is that assigned writer(s), editor(s), and a doc manager are the only ones who should be messing around in a particular directory. The doc manager is the single person accountable for what goes on in the directory. It can be one of the writers, editors, or third person otherwise not involved. To start, it's likely to be one of the FDSCo members, lending a wise and guiding hand where needed. *cues ethereal music* Each doc has one or more writers who must collaborate together within the same repository. Thank ye gods for revision control! An editor can edit for technical and grammatical/wordsmith details. The editor must know and enforce the style guidelines from the Doc Guide[6]. There may be more than one editor to fill all the roles. [6] Forthcoming URL _will_be_: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-style.html NOTE: URL does not work. We're, uh, editing it for style. Long story. Coming Real Soon Now, with a shiny announcement. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 29 18:30:27 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:30:27 -0700 Subject: CVS now open In-Reply-To: <1114753469.6234.460.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114753469.6234.460.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114799428.6234.471.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 22:44 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Hi fellow writers and editors: > > We are mighty pleased to announce the opening of CVS for the Docs > Project. Forgot to include anonymous CVS access. As it says on http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs export CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous at cvs.fedora.redhat.com:/cvs/docs cvs -z3 login cvs -z3 co fedora-docs -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie Fri Apr 29 19:56:43 2005 From: tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:56:43 +0100 Subject: Comments on Documentation Idea References: <42701BAB.6060402@buddhalinux.com> <1114646571.4742.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Paul W. Frields wrote: > (2) be Fedora-specific enough to give value over some of the other more > standardized security guides; and What are these "standardized security guides"? -- Timothy Murphy e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland From tuxxer at cox.net Fri Apr 29 20:21:51 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:21:51 -0700 Subject: Comments on Documentation Idea In-Reply-To: References: <42701BAB.6060402@buddhalinux.com> <1114646571.4742.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114806111.12202.11.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 20:56 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > (2) be Fedora-specific enough to give value over some of the other more > > standardized security guides; and > > What are these "standardized security guides"? > I think he's talking about the general, high-level stuff you might get if you googled "linux security" or something. -Charlie -- -tuxxer echo "uvyyfsAdpy/ofu" | perl -pe 's/(.)/chr(ord($1) - 1)/ge' gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 22:39:51 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:39:51 -0400 Subject: Comments on Documentation Idea In-Reply-To: <1114806111.12202.11.camel@localhost> References: <42701BAB.6060402@buddhalinux.com> <1114646571.4742.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114806111.12202.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1114814391.5232.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 13:21 -0700, tuxxer wrote: > On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 20:56 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > > (2) be Fedora-specific enough to give value over some of the other more > > > standardized security guides; and > > > > What are these "standardized security guides"? > > > > I think he's talking about the general, high-level stuff you might get > if you googled "linux security" or something. Sure, but also things like "Practical UNIX and Internet Security, "Computer Security: Art & Science," Gollmann's "Computer Security," and such. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From admin at buddhalinux.com Fri Apr 29 23:56:16 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:56:16 -0500 Subject: Comments on Documentation Idea In-Reply-To: <1114814391.5232.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42701BAB.6060402@buddhalinux.com> <1114646571.4742.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114806111.12202.11.camel@localhost> <1114814391.5232.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4272C9A0.80108@buddhalinux.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 13:21 -0700, tuxxer wrote: > >>On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 20:56 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: >> >>>Paul W. Frields wrote: >>> >>> >>>>(2) be Fedora-specific enough to give value over some of the other more >>>>standardized security guides; and >>> >>>What are these "standardized security guides"? >>> >> >>I think he's talking about the general, high-level stuff you might get >>if you googled "linux security" or something. > > > Sure, but also things like "Practical UNIX and Internet Security, > "Computer Security: Art & Science," Gollmann's "Computer Security," and > such. > > Personally, I would consider "standardized security guides" within the realm of the following sources: Information Assurance Technology Framework Release 3.1, National Security Agency Automated Tools for Testing Computer System Vulnerability, NIST Special Publication 800-6 Establishing a Computer Security Incident Response Capability(CSIRC), NIST Special Publication 800-3 A great many(granted not all) security resources written today is full of fluff and doesn't recognize or even mention industry standards or procedures. To tell you the truth, i've found that CS research papers(available from NEC) seem to contain more relevant content than alot of the published books. IMHO. I've got a basic content done for the first release. I just need to determine the most efficient way to structure the content for the intended audience. Tuxxer: This is where I could use some help. If you've got the time --- drop me a line --- i'd like to forward to you my sources to look over. Also I wanted to review your list of intended documentation so that we can assure that we don't overlap content. I am pretty sure the docs will be top notch stuff --- but then again I am pretty bias ;) Thomas From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 03:30:02 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:30:02 -0400 Subject: Comments on Documentation Idea In-Reply-To: <4272C9A0.80108@buddhalinux.com> References: <42701BAB.6060402@buddhalinux.com> <1114646571.4742.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114806111.12202.11.camel@localhost> <1114814391.5232.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4272C9A0.80108@buddhalinux.com> Message-ID: <1114831803.6671.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 18:56 -0500, Thomas Jones wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 13:21 -0700, tuxxer wrote: > >>On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 20:56 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > >> > >>>Paul W. Frields wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>(2) be Fedora-specific enough to give value over some of the other more > >>>>standardized security guides; and > >>> > >>>What are these "standardized security guides"? > >>> > >> > >>I think he's talking about the general, high-level stuff you might get > >>if you googled "linux security" or something. > > > > > > Sure, but also things like "Practical UNIX and Internet Security, > > "Computer Security: Art & Science," Gollmann's "Computer Security," and > > such. > > > > > Personally, I would consider "standardized security guides" within the > realm of the following sources: > > Information Assurance Technology Framework Release 3.1, National > Security Agency > Automated Tools for Testing Computer System Vulnerability, NIST Special > Publication 800-6 > Establishing a Computer Security Incident Response Capability(CSIRC), > NIST Special Publication 800-3 > > A great many(granted not all) security resources written today is full > of fluff and doesn't recognize or even mention industry standards or > procedures. To tell you the truth, i've found that CS research > papers(available from NEC) seem to contain more relevant content than > alot of the published books. IMHO. Okay, okay, you definitely win the Battle of the Citations. ;-) (Like Karsten, my specialized experience doesn't fall into the security realm either, except in a more esoteric sense.) You're working from a different definition for "standardized" than I intended, which is a good indicator that I made a poor word choice. "General practical" would have been better, and would be more along the lines of the books I named. In any case, I'm glad we have a good security technical editor aboard. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: