From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Mon Aug 1 13:29:47 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:29:47 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Cannot get mock to work] In-Reply-To: <1122853702.6169.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122736603.2996.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122737213.7609.18.camel@cutter> <1122737443.3935.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050730201755.7fd0e21a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1122821768.3876.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050731122135.71015e83.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1122853702.6169.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050801082947.60ed62f0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > Anybody who's interested in helping can simply download it from the > development repo. (Ah, the beauty of open development.) Ah, no. It's not up there at http://linux.duke.edu/~skvidal/mock/ at the moment. Is that the right place? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 16:01:43 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:01:43 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Cannot get mock to work] In-Reply-To: <20050801082947.60ed62f0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1122736603.2996.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122737213.7609.18.camel@cutter> <1122737443.3935.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050730201755.7fd0e21a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1122821768.3876.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050731122135.71015e83.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1122853702.6169.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050801082947.60ed62f0.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1122912103.11563.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 08:29 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > Anybody who's interested in helping can simply download it from the > > development repo. (Ah, the beauty of open development.) > > Ah, no. It's not up there at http://linux.duke.edu/~skvidal/mock/ at > the moment. Is that the right place? I believe you'll find it in the fedora CVS (cvs.fedora.redhat.com:/cvs/fedora), with other infrastructure web stuff. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tfox at redhat.com Mon Aug 1 19:03:15 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:03:15 -0400 Subject: CSS for HTML output In-Reply-To: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122922995.5809.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Very nice Paul. Definitely looks more "Fedora-like" than the CSS we inherited from the enterprise docs. Tammy On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 14:39 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Pursuant to the following bug: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=159147 > > ...I made some changes to the CSS in the Docs Project CVS. Rahul was > looking (correctly, Karsten and I think) for a look that would > differentiate our docs from Red Hat's. Most of our style sheet comes > from the one that Red Hat uses, in particular the coloration of headings > and admonitions. > > I moved the headings to a blue color taken directly from the Fedora web > site CSS (the sidebar, to be more specific), and for the admonition > boxes, I came up with a yellow that is hopefully attention-getting > without being garish. I left the coloration of screen sections alone > since there wasn't a clear reason to change it. Refer to a mock-up here > to avoid having to build anything yourself: > > http://docs.frields.org/mirror-tutorial-en/sn-planning-and-setup.html > > If I can speak for Karsten, pursuant to a conversation we had today, we > would like to know what people think about adopting this CSS for DocBook > generated pages on the fedora.redhat.com web site. > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 1 20:45:17 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:45:17 -0700 Subject: visit us at the Fedora Project booth at LinuxWorld San Franicsco Message-ID: <1122929118.5322.67.camel@erato.phig.org> August 9, 10, and 11 in San Francisco I'll be helping to run the Fedora Project booth in the .org pavilion at LinuxWorld Conference and Expo. Aside from just chatting up Fedora and friends, we will have short, booth-based presentations on subjects such as anaconda, kickstart, Fedora Extras, Fedora Directory Server, Java and FC4, and SELinux. Tuesday night at 5:30 is the Fedora Project Birds of a Feather (BoF). This goes until 7 pm. I hope to see you there. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 4 06:28:59 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:28:59 -0700 Subject: FDSCo meeting 2 August minutes Message-ID: <1123136939.6692.17.camel@erato.phig.org> FDSCo Meeting 2 August 2005 Attendees: ========== Tommy Reynolds Karsten Wade Paul Frields Gavin Henry Robert Jensen (visitor) Updates: ======== * Push-to-Publish Week (P2PW) needs some follow-up: * Yum Software Management - ready to release * Mirror Tutorial - beta release and RFC * Update Guide - deprecated * Focus on recruiting, we need more writers with content and ideas * Focus on getting existing people excited, writing, and publishing. Actions: ======== Karsten - read mirror-tutorial by Wed. Paul - publish beta and RFC Karsten - call to arms on list for lurkers All - consider 1:1 contact from FDSCo members to all self-intros Paul - schedule check on f-dsco-l, see if meeting time still works ## 30 ## -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Aug 14 10:04:32 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 05:04:32 -0500 Subject: Now Seeking Guinea Pigs (Mentors) Message-ID: <42FF1730.1080405@n-man.com> Following recent discussions, the Mentors page on the wiki was created recently. It did little more than list where potential contributors might go. I have moved that information to the HelpWanted page, cleaned it up, and created new content for the Mentors page. As part of doing so, I have started the list of volunteer mentors on that page. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors If you would be willing to mentor new contributors to Fedora, please consider adding yourself to that list. Hopefully, having such an open list will work out. This will be a list that curious contributors can select mentors from. Please be careful and descriptive in your listing. Please keep in mind that if you are bombarded with requests, you are free to remove your name from the list, but we need to try to manage requests to keep that from happening. As the list grows, if you are getting more requests than you can handle, please try to pass requests along to other, less-bombarded mentors rather than unleash your wrath on new contributors. I have posted this message to fedora-devel-list, fedora-extras-list, fedora-marketing-list, and fedora-docs-list. Please don't shoot me, we need all the mentors we can get from every facet of the Project. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 15 12:08:59 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:08:59 -0400 Subject: Approval Message-ID: <1124107739.3244.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Karsten, I tried adding the yum doc to the web CVS, and was denied access. I realized that I needed cvsfedora rights in the account system, so I applied, but haven't yet been approved. If you have rights to do this, it would be great if you could. Otherwise I can bother someone else, if you can make a suggestion... Although sponsorship is apparently "unneeded," according to the account system, I'm sure that someone would feel better if they knew you were vouching for said access. :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 15 16:05:53 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:05:53 -0700 Subject: Approval In-Reply-To: <1124107739.3244.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124107739.3244.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124121953.5294.55.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 08:08 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Karsten, > > I tried adding the yum doc to the web CVS, and was denied access. I > realized that I needed cvsfedora rights in the account system, so I > applied, but haven't yet been approved. Silly me, I had just added you manually to the ACLs. Naturally, it's more convoluted than that. :) > If you have rights to do this, > it would be great if you could. Otherwise I can bother someone else, if > you can make a suggestion... I don't have auth to administer that group. Your request to join generates an automatic message that goes to the admins, and is regen'd every 24 hours that it is not addressed. So, consider them bugged. :) > Although sponsorship is apparently > "unneeded," according to the account system, I'm sure that someone would > feel better if they knew you were vouching for said access. :-) It's probably Elliot anyway, and he knows who you are. AIUI, sponsorship is a concept built into the system. It is a "who to go to in case this guy messes stuff up," a sort of guarantee to clean-up after someone else's mistakes. It seems to be enabled so far for only cvsextras. In other words, nothing here is mission critical enough to require such a sponsorship chain. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 02:41:55 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:41:55 -0700 Subject: this is for you Message-ID: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> Maybe you introduced yourself, or are still lurking. Perhaps you have a document in progress, or an idea in process. The Documentation Project needs you to help keep the momentum going. * What is stopping you from submitting your document? * From using CVS? * Do you need more directions? * Do you want fewer restrictions? The steering committee for this project is here to help you be successful working on Fedora documentation. What can we do for you? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stanfinley at comcast.net Tue Aug 16 04:26:13 2005 From: stanfinley at comcast.net (Stanton Finley) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:26:13 -0600 Subject: Self-Introduction: Stanton Finley Message-ID: <1124166373.6249.37.camel@stantonfinley.org> Stanton Max Finley * Location: Tremonton, Utah, USA * Profession: Maintenance electrician - Industrial Computerized Control Systems * Company: The Malt-O-Meal Company * Goals in the Fedora Project: * Composing, proofreading, and editing installation/configuration documentation for Fedora Core * Composing, proofreading, and editing installation/configuration documentation for Fedora Core compatible third party software applications for parties who own or believe they own licenses for such software * Editing for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy * Assisting the the dissemination, popularization and marketing of Fedora Core as an alternative operating system * Historical qualifications: * Technical writing, quality control documentation, style and grammatical editing * Word processing, database, spreadsheet, bit-mapped and vector graphics * Web page creation, HTML, XHTML, PHP, Perl, MySQL * Digital art and graphics creation * Project Management skills * Author of the "Fedora Core 4 Linux Installation Notes" series at http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_4_installation_notes.html and http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_3_installation_notes.html * Contributor to http://fedoranews.org/ * GPG KEYID and fingerprint: pub 1024D/7DBFA5D2 2005-08-15 Key fingerprint = B5BB BFCD 2688 0A71 BB22 474E 27BD 80FC 7DBF A5D2 uid Stanton Finley (stan) sub 2048g/9D6E797E 2005-08-15 -- Stanton Finley http://stanton-finley.net/ stanfinley comcast.net gpg fingerprint: B5BB BFCD 2688 0A71 BB22 474E 27BD 80FC 7DBF A5D2 From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Aug 16 07:51:21 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:51:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Self-Introduction: Stanton Finley In-Reply-To: <1124166373.6249.37.camel@stantonfinley.org> References: <1124166373.6249.37.camel@stantonfinley.org> Message-ID: <40488.195.38.86.72.1124178681.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Added: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors > Stanton Max Finley > * Location: Tremonton, Utah, USA > * Profession: Maintenance electrician - Industrial Computerized > Control Systems > * Company: The Malt-O-Meal Company > * Goals in the Fedora Project: > * Composing, proofreading, and editing > installation/configuration documentation for Fedora Core > * Composing, proofreading, and editing > installation/configuration documentation for Fedora Core > compatible third party software applications for parties > who own or believe they own licenses for such software > * Editing for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy > * Assisting the the dissemination, popularization and > marketing of Fedora Core as an alternative operating > system > * Historical qualifications: > * Technical writing, quality control documentation, style > and grammatical editing > * Word processing, database, spreadsheet, bit-mapped and > vector graphics > * Web page creation, HTML, XHTML, PHP, Perl, MySQL > * Digital art and graphics creation > * Project Management skills > * Author of the "Fedora Core 4 Linux Installation Notes" > series at > http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_4_installation_notes.html > and > http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_3_installation_notes.html > * Contributor to http://fedoranews.org/ > * GPG KEYID and fingerprint: > pub 1024D/7DBFA5D2 2005-08-15 > Key fingerprint = B5BB BFCD 2688 0A71 BB22 474E > 27BD 80FC 7DBF A5D2 > uid Stanton Finley (stan) > > sub 2048g/9D6E797E 2005-08-15 > -- > Stanton Finley > http://stanton-finley.net/ stanfinley comcast.net > gpg fingerprint: B5BB BFCD 2688 0A71 BB22 474E 27BD 80FC 7DBF A5D2 > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 11:25:29 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:25:29 -0400 Subject: Self-Introduction: Stanton Finley In-Reply-To: <1124166373.6249.37.camel@stantonfinley.org> References: <1124166373.6249.37.camel@stantonfinley.org> Message-ID: <1124191529.3251.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 22:26 -0600, Stanton Finley wrote: > Stanton Max Finley > * Company: The Malt-O-Meal Company No way! My wife and I are so totally into your cereal, it's insane. Seriously Stanton, welcome to the project. Do you have one or more subjects you would be interested in writing on? We are in need of tutorials to accomplish common user and sysadmin tasks, so please pitch in with your ideas. Also check out the Wiki if you haven't: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject ...especially the checklist for new contributors. Welcome on board. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 14:08:53 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:38:53 +0530 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> HI In an ideal world, I would have wished for the following: [1] A portal/wiki/forum for LUGs to be listed (with at least 2 contacts per LUG) [2] Small info kit which could be distributed at LUG meets which happen at Universities/Schools/Community Centers and the like [3] *101 things you did not know about Fedora* - a small piece about the project and more importantly *Fedora Core - The Distribution* [4] Figure out a way to *sell* Fedora goodies [5] Have Fedora spokesperson at LUGs. This person interacts on a regular basis with the development of the project and is in a position to talk about the cool things that make FC nice [6] Have dedicated BugSquad members from the LUGs -------- Lets start a wiki for LUG's then. I personally find things like Fedora Extras repository a important enhancement for the platform as well as a show case for community contributions and would like to see a overview of Fedora also look into other things besides core but on the whole I think the idea of a info kit for Fedora well worth exploring. Is anyone from the docs team willing to look at this?. We got a whole lot of people lurking in there regards Rahul Ps: CC'ing docs list for comments From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 14:20:15 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:20:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> Message-ID: OK, so let me actually give a little bit of shape to these ideas from my perspective. On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > [1] A portal/wiki/forum for LUGs to be listed (with at least 2 contacts > per LUG) We can start a LUG section asap and make this a prominent page. Who wants it? > [2] Small info kit which could be distributed at LUG meets which happen > at Universities/Schools/Community Centers and the like A physical kit, or a virtual kit? > [3] *101 things you did not know about Fedora* - a small piece about the > project and more importantly *Fedora Core - The Distribution* This seems like a good idea to me. This would also make a great handout. Maybe we should start this "101 things" page on the wiki, work on it for a while, and then when it's baked, we turn it into pretty collateral. I can get help from that end. > [4] Figure out a way to *sell* Fedora goodies The biggest blocker here, honestly, is a treasurer. We could set up a Cafe Press store in 15 minutes; the real issue is, who handles the money? This is one of the upcoming issues to be resolved by the Foundation, but once we're there, I think that this item moves right to the top. > [5] Have Fedora spokesperson at LUGs. This person interacts on a regular > basis with the development of the project and is in a position to talk > about the cool things that make FC nice Is this spokesperson a member of the LUG, or not? > [6] Have dedicated BugSquad members from the LUGs Oh, hell yeah. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 14:34:42 2005 From: sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:04:42 +0530 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4301F982.5050901@gmail.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >>[2] Small info kit which could be distributed at LUG meets which happen >>at Universities/Schools/Community Centers and the like > > > A physical kit, or a virtual kit? A .pdf that can be easily printed into a 4-fold brochure maybe... >>[5] Have Fedora spokesperson at LUGs. This person interacts on a regular >>basis with the development of the project and is in a position to talk >>about the cool things that make FC nice > > > Is this spokesperson a member of the LUG, or not? Must be. Otherwise LUG buy-in will be missed. > >>[6] Have dedicated BugSquad members from the LUGs > > > Oh, hell yeah. Reason for it is as follows: [1] More eyes on the ball [2] The LUG *participates* in the making Rgds Sankarshan -- You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 14:33:14 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:03:14 +0530 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >OK, so let me actually give a little bit of shape to these ideas from my >perspective. > >On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > >>[1] A portal/wiki/forum for LUGs to be listed (with at least 2 contacts >>per LUG) >> >> > >We can start a LUG section asap and make this a prominent page. Who wants >it? > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LUG. Please fill in the required information > > > >>[2] Small info kit which could be distributed at LUG meets which happen >>at Universities/Schools/Community Centers and the like >> >> > >A physical kit, or a virtual kit? > > > Virtual definitely >>[5] Have Fedora spokesperson at LUGs. This person interacts on a regular >>basis with the development of the project and is in a position to talk >>about the cool things that make FC nice >> >> > >Is this spokesperson a member of the LUG, or not? > > Member regards Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 19:10:19 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:10:19 -0400 Subject: xmlformat Message-ID: <1124219419.3402.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> By way of update, since not everyone reads the chatlog minutes -- I checked in with Paul DuBois, author, and verified that any funkiness of tag attribute indentation is not due to xmlformat bugginess, but just a function of xmlformat's "leave well enough alone" attitude. It does not reformat tag attributes as part of the prettification process, so any indentation stays as is. This does not really present any problems for us per se. I have been continually updating xmlformat-fdp.conf to handle tags I encounter. We should be able to deal with any future goobers easily without creating disturbing diffs. It's probably time to think about putting this in the CVS toolchain for all XML file commits in docs. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 19:39:26 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:39:26 -0700 Subject: xmlformat In-Reply-To: <1124219419.3402.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124219419.3402.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124221166.18963.183.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 15:10 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > I have been continually updating xmlformat-fdp.conf to handle tags I > encounter. We should be able to deal with any future goobers easily > without creating disturbing diffs. It's probably time to think about > putting this in the CVS toolchain for all XML file commits in docs. As it so happens, this topic is on the agenda for the FDSCo meeting today. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 21:09:42 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:09:42 -0700 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> New $SUBJECT reflects the fact that my semi-punny Subject from before was too spammy. Let's talk about working on this project. :) On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 19:41 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Maybe you introduced yourself, or are still lurking. > > Perhaps you have a document in progress, or an idea in process. > > The Documentation Project needs you to help keep the momentum going. > > * What is stopping you from submitting your document? > * From using CVS? > * Do you need more directions? > * Do you want fewer restrictions? > > The steering committee for this project is here to help you be > successful working on Fedora documentation. > > What can we do for you? > > - Karsten > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 21:56:12 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:56:12 -0700 Subject: Minutes FDSCo 16 August 2005 Message-ID: <1124229372.15743.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Nice little meeting today, tools and mentoring were the main topics. FDSCo Meeting 16-AUG-2005 #fedora-docs on irc.freenode.net Attendees: ========== Tammy Fox Paul Frields Tommy Reynolds Stuart Elliss Gavin Henry Karsten Wade Contributors: ============= Patrick Barnes Bob Jensen Updates: ======== Discussions about participation and recruiting are beginning on f-docs-l. These tie into ongoing discussions on f-marketing-l. Documentation Project has a few mentors. See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors for more information. Actions: ======== Karsten - make sure FC devels know where to point potential writers Paul - how-to engage tidy-bowl Tommy - patch tidy-bown to add '-n' to not change doc but show changes only - DONE Paul, Stuart, Karsten - Post yum tutorial, deprecate old update tutorial - DONE All - if you want to be a mentor: * pick someone to contact from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors * anyone is worth asking, they might appreciate the help * Cc: the initial contact to f-dsco-l, with a blurb such as, "I Cc:'d the docs project committee so we can keep track of who we each contact." * Alternately, send a separate email, if you prefer. * Ask to keep mentoring discussions on f-docs-l *or* have summaries occassionaly sent. For example, the mentee could send an email, "I discussed this idea with Karsten on IRC, and he thinks it will work great, so this is what I'm doing ..." ## 30 ## -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 21:57:45 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >We can start a LUG section asap and make this a prominent page. Who wants > >it? > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LUG. Please fill in the required information OK, this is 1/10th of the work. The other 9/10ths of the work: * Advertising the existence of this page. * Explaining to people why they'd want to add their info to this page. * Building a LUG program that creates value for the people who add their info to this page. * As the page grows, cleaning up the formatting of the page, since if 100 LUGs add their info to this page, it'll be unreadable. Every journey must start with a single step, of course. This is a good step one. :) _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From kara at kspei.com Wed Aug 17 00:32:18 2005 From: kara at kspei.com (kara at kspei.com) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:32:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> Message-ID: Ok, I have to chime in. Too many years worth of LUG support projects under my belt to pass by this thread. We're getting ready to move linuxusersgroups.org over to a UML or Zen box so more people can have access to it to redo the site. Maybe it has some opportunity here? I haven't updated it in years, but I still get messages almost weekly. Kara Pritchard Phone: 618-398-3000 President, KS Computer Room Inc. kara at kspei.com Southern Illinois Linux Users Group www.silug.org -- From stanfinley at comcast.net Wed Aug 17 06:02:12 2005 From: stanfinley at comcast.net (Stanton Finley) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:02:12 -0600 Subject: Self-Introduction: Stanton Finley In-Reply-To: <1124191529.3251.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124166373.6249.37.camel@stantonfinley.org> <1124191529.3251.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124258532.4984.78.camel@stantonfinley.org> On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 07:25 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 22:26 -0600, Stanton Finley wrote: > > Stanton Max Finley > > * Company: The Malt-O-Meal Company > > No way! My wife and I are so totally into your cereal, it's insane. > Seriously Stanton, welcome to the project. Do you have one or more > subjects you would be interested in writing on? We are in need of > tutorials to accomplish common user and sysadmin tasks, so please pitch > in with your ideas. Also check out the Wiki if you haven't: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > > ...especially the checklist for new contributors. Welcome on board. > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list Thanks for your kind welcome Paul. I must admit being a bit overwhelmed trying to find some direction among the maze of links from the wiki about the docs to bugzilla about the docs to docs about the docs and the docs themselves. I'm sure that this initial confusion will clarify itself in my mind as I assimilate the structure and logical process from which this project has evolved and is evolving. As is the case I'm sure for millions of potential Fedora users I approached Linux from the Microsoft milieu. My initial question was "where's the manual"? This naivety was soon replaced with paradigm shifting realization that there is no (single) manual and that one must rely upon the community. The frustration that led to my own writings (most recently at http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_4_installation_notes.html) continues to motivate my desire to see the emergence of a body of Fedora documentation that is parallel in quality to the OS itself. Fedora Core is the class act of today's Linux OS distributions and its documentation should be nothing less. I appreciate that the formal body of Fedora documentation must conform to the founding philosophy to "build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from open source software". My current quandary is that like most real-world Fedora users I actually do not use exclusively free and open-source software on my Fedora box. I play patent-encumbered MP3s and watch videos which use proprietary codecs. I have RealPlayer and Sun Java installed and use the nVidia driver for graphics acceleration. So how do we create the documentation which the "real-world" user is actually clamoring for? How do we accommodate and reconcile the free software model with the need for a single-source all encompassing Fedora Core "manual" in which the user can find the answer to his fedoraforum.org style questions. How do I play MP3s on Fedora? How to I watch the movie trailers at http://www.apple.com/trailers/ on Fedora? How do I install Azureus for bittorrent on Fedora and configure it to use the Sun Java JRE? I dual boot Microsoft Windows XP and Fedora Core 4 on my home computer. Having purchased Windows and Windows software I already bought the licenses to listen to MP3s and watch divX encoded movies. So why can I not turn to a subset of Fedora Docs that tells me how to use these on my Fedora installation with the disclaimer that this documentation is written "for parties who own or believe they own licenses for such software". It is actually this kind of documentation which I would like to contribute. I believe that until Fedora can provide this class of documentation for it's potential users its user base will be constricted and compromised as other Linux based OSs find ways of circumventing the patent-encumbered and non-open-source issues in their user documentation. From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 07:01:44 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:01:44 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Stanton Finley In-Reply-To: <1124258532.4984.78.camel@stantonfinley.org> References: <1124166373.6249.37.camel@stantonfinley.org> <1124191529.3251.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124258532.4984.78.camel@stantonfinley.org> Message-ID: <1124262104.15743.43.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 00:02 -0600, Stanton Finley wrote: > I must admit being a bit overwhelmed trying to find some direction among > the maze of links from the wiki about the docs to bugzilla about the > docs to docs about the docs and the docs themselves. I'm sure that this > initial confusion will clarify itself in my mind as I assimilate the > structure and logical process from which this project has evolved and is > evolving. This is the truth. We don't mean to be confusing, but it happens that way around here now. We'd love to simplify the presentation of our processes. Have you seen this page? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters You might also consider asking for help from a mentor: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors > As is the case I'm sure for millions of potential Fedora users I > approached Linux from the Microsoft milieu. My initial question was > "where's the manual"? This naivety was soon replaced with paradigm > shifting realization that there is no (single) manual and that one must > rely upon the community. The double-edged sword of FLOSS. It's free for you to do anything you need! Unfortunately, no one has done everything you need. :) > The frustration that led to my own writings (most recently at > http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_4_installation_notes.html) > continues to motivate my desire to see the emergence of a body of Fedora > documentation that is parallel in quality to the OS itself. Fedora Core > is the class act of today's Linux OS distributions and its documentation > should be nothing less. I fully agree. This is why our documentation has to be treated with the same level of responsibility as the rest of the distribution source code. I've seen that page before, it has certainly grown. If you want to use it as source material for some formal Fedora documentation, that could work fine. As I explain below, the content you publish through Fedora directly can't tell how to infringe on any patents or violate any laws such as the DMCA. > I appreciate that the formal body of Fedora documentation must conform > to the founding philosophy to "build a complete, general purpose > operating system exclusively from open source software". My current > quandary is that like most real-world Fedora users I actually do not use > exclusively free and open-source software on my Fedora box. I play > patent-encumbered MP3s and watch videos which use proprietary codecs. I > have RealPlayer and Sun Java installed and use the nVidia driver for > graphics acceleration. This is a paradox. Cognitive dissonance. We're humans, we're used to living this way. "Denial is not a river in Egypt." Unfortunately, you'll have to live with it. The first condition is not changing anytime soon (ever, I hope), and the second condition is something we can only affect by deciding when enough proprietary codecs are enough. > So how do we create the documentation which the "real-world" user is > actually clamoring for? How do we accommodate and reconcile the free > software model with the need for a single-source all encompassing Fedora > Core "manual" in which the user can find the answer to his > fedoraforum.org style questions. How do I play MP3s on Fedora? How to I > watch the movie trailers at http://www.apple.com/trailers/ on Fedora? > How do I install Azureus for bittorrent on Fedora and configure it to > use the Sun Java JRE? GIYF. Seriously. This is stuff we just cannot touch. > I dual boot Microsoft Windows XP and Fedora Core 4 on my home computer. > Having purchased Windows and Windows software I already bought the > licenses to listen to MP3s and watch divX encoded movies. So why can I > not turn to a subset of Fedora Docs that tells me how to use these on my > Fedora installation with the disclaimer that this documentation is > written "for parties who own or believe they own licenses for such > software". It is actually this kind of documentation which I would like > to contribute. I believe that until Fedora can provide this class of > documentation for it's potential users its user base will be constricted > and compromised as other Linux based OSs find ways of circumventing the > patent-encumbered and non-open-source issues in their user > documentation. My glib response is, thank goodness we have lawyers to protect us from ourselves. The decision about how to discuss patent and DMCA encumbered issues was made for us by our counselors, who surely will continue to give the same advice after the Fedora Foundation is created. This all has to do with what Fedora can distribute and information it can disseminate. As you point out, an end-user can be a perfectly legitimate user of these technologies. We just cannot help them get there. I don't want to turn away well-meaning contributors, but we cannot use the kind of documentation you describe. There are many forums that are more than happy to provide solutions and packages of all interesting sorts. We have to stay true to our mission. What we *can* do is be consistent in our message, and we can link to sites such as fedorafaq.org and fedoraforum.org, that may contain such information or link to such information. Here's the bottom line: we should not be settling for technologies that go against our project ideals. One reason we "need" these codecs is because we haven't all abandoned MP3 in favor of OGG. "Fedora - starving patent attorneys since 2003" "Fedora - free for ever" "Fedora - codec patents? we don't need no stinking codec patents?" It is a stated purpose of the Fedora Project to create and include such technologies, where they are needed, out of entirely open source components. We need to put our energy and music collections in that direction, and not settle for MP3 because it is easy. Because it was included in Windows. I hope this message doesn't turn you away. I've been accused of arrogance around these issues, and I suppose I take a high-and-mighty tone. But we are discussing nothing short of our fundamental freedoms, whether to have and use open formats, or just not be jailed for DMCA violations. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Aug 17 07:06:51 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:06:51 -0500 Subject: Minutes FDSCo 16 August 2005 In-Reply-To: <1124229372.15743.10.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124229372.15743.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050817020651.0dcdb6ff.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > Tommy - patch tidy-bown to add '-n' to not change doc but show changes > only - DONE The "-n" switch is for filtering instead of updating in-place. The "-n" switch probably has the wrong connotation but that's what Paul asked for. I'll do a man(1) page RSN. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 10:07:44 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:37:44 +0530 Subject: Fedora security guide Message-ID: <43030C70.1020206@redhat.com> Hi Came across http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=05/08/04/201201. Would be useful to have in the security guide that was dicussed on list previously. Whats the status on that one? regards Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 16:48:40 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:48:40 -0400 Subject: Using ulink Message-ID: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Possibly) helpful tip for the day: FDP standard usage for the DocBook XML tag is to always use the link URL as the text for the link itself. In other words, instead of this: A good link ...use this: http://some.link.to/somewhere/ But wait! It gets easier. DocBook XML specifies that when the XML tag closes itself (i.e. you don't provide any link text), the link itself is used as the text for any rendering process. So what you should probably do instead, for better XML readability, is this: Isn't that a lot easier? I think so. Remember the tag-closing slash after closing the quotes for the URL, or xmlto will give you a hard time when you attempt to build your document. :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Aug 17 17:09:34 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:09:34 -0500 Subject: Using ulink In-Reply-To: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > But wait! It gets easier. DocBook XML specifies that when the XML tag > closes itself (i.e. you don't provide any link text), the link itself is > used as the text for any rendering process. So what you should probably > do instead, for better XML readability, is this: > > Paul, Could you (or someone who has time) check this using a small example with Apache FOP? This is so clever that it may not be implemented in some rederers. IIRC, the tentative PDF rendering solution was to involve FOP. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 17:14:38 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:14:38 -0400 Subject: Using ulink In-Reply-To: <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 12:09 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > But wait! It gets easier. DocBook XML specifies that when the XML tag > > closes itself (i.e. you don't provide any link text), the link itself is > > used as the text for any rendering process. So what you should probably > > do instead, for better XML readability, is this: > > > > > > Could you (or someone who has time) check this using a small example > with Apache FOP? This is so clever that it may not be implemented in > some rederers. IIRC, the tentative PDF rendering solution was to > involve FOP. Great idea -- I don't have FOP, but this is defined behavior in the DocBook standards (as opposed to any cleverness on my part -- I just read it in DocBook:TDG!), so I'll be very surprised if it doesn't deliver as promised. I'll yield this task to someone who has it installed. Is Mark Johnson out there? I thought he used FOP, but I'm not sure. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Aug 17 17:18:40 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:18:40 -0500 Subject: Using ulink In-Reply-To: <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050817121840.d59929b7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > Great idea -- I don't have FOP, but this is defined behavior in the > DocBook standards (as opposed to any cleverness on my part -- I just > read it in DocBook:TDG!), so I'll be very surprised if it doesn't > deliver as promised. DocBook is so complicated that most renderers don't implement the full behavior; their goal is full support, but non-commercial tools often do the "useful" parts first and then fill in the neat stuff. Better to be safe than President. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 17:21:50 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:51:50 +0530 Subject: Using ulink In-Reply-To: <20050817121840.d59929b7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817121840.d59929b7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <4303722E.3050302@redhat.com> Tommy Reynolds wrote: >Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > >>Great idea -- I don't have FOP, but this is defined behavior in the >>DocBook standards (as opposed to any cleverness on my part -- I just >>read it in DocBook:TDG!), so I'll be very surprised if it doesn't >>deliver as promised. >> >> > >DocBook is so complicated that most renderers don't implement the >full behavior; their goal is full support, but non-commercial tools >often do the "useful" parts first and then fill in the neat stuff. > > I heard KDE takes up a useful subset and ensures that documents only use that. Might be something to look into regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 17:22:50 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:22:50 -0700 Subject: Fedora security guide In-Reply-To: <43030C70.1020206@redhat.com> References: <43030C70.1020206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124299370.15743.51.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 15:37 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Came across http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=05/08/04/201201. Would > be useful to have in the security guide that was dicussed on list > previously. Whats the status on that one? We have two in CVS, the hardening guide and a higher-level practices document. The former really needs an editor who can work with it. That's supposed to be me, but I haven't done it yet. Sure tuxxer is fed up by now. :( - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 17:31:43 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:31:43 -0400 Subject: Using ulink In-Reply-To: <4303722E.3050302@redhat.com> References: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817121840.d59929b7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <4303722E.3050302@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124299903.10371.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 22:51 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Tommy Reynolds wrote: > >Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > >>Great idea -- I don't have FOP, but this is defined behavior in the > >>DocBook standards (as opposed to any cleverness on my part -- I just > >>read it in DocBook:TDG!), so I'll be very surprised if it doesn't > >>deliver as promised. > > > >DocBook is so complicated that most renderers don't implement the > >full behavior; their goal is full support, but non-commercial tools > >often do the "useful" parts first and then fill in the neat stuff. > > > I heard KDE takes up a useful subset and ensures that documents only use > that. Might be something to look into I would think is a pretty DocBook feature, and FOP isn't in our official toolchain (yet?), but Tommy is absolutely right. Personally, I don't relish the idea of telling people what part of DocBook they can use. I think this is way too much work for too little return. Stick to the standards, it'll be OK. :-) On the other hand, if FOP can't support a pretty basic DocBook function like this, I wonder where else it might fall down. Frankly, I don't know how much anyone cares about PDF generation for these things; if you can see it in a Web browser, you can print it, save it, whatever. CSS will take care of eliminating Web navigation paraphrenalia (see Red Hat Magazine for some good usage). -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 17:35:16 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:35:16 -0400 Subject: Using ulink In-Reply-To: <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43037554.1050401@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 12:09 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > >>Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: >> >> >>>But wait! It gets easier. DocBook XML specifies that when the XML tag >>>closes itself (i.e. you don't provide any link text), the link itself is >>>used as the text for any rendering process. So what you should probably >>>do instead, for better XML readability, is this: >>> >>> >> >>Could you (or someone who has time) check this using a small example >>with Apache FOP? This is so clever that it may not be implemented in >>some rederers. IIRC, the tentative PDF rendering solution was to >>involve FOP. > > > Great idea -- I don't have FOP, but this is defined behavior in the > DocBook standards (as opposed to any cleverness on my part -- I just > read it in DocBook:TDG!), so I'll be very surprised if it doesn't > deliver as promised. Keep in mind that this is the "recommended" behavior for the stylesheets. In reality, an implementer can do whatever she wants. Fortunately, though, the (xsl) stylesheets are mostly developed by the same folks who work on the DocBook schema standards, so the docbook xsl stylesheets are likely compliant. > I'll yield this task to someone who has it > installed. Is Mark Johnson out there? I thought he used FOP, but I'm > not sure. I'd be happy to do a FOP build if someone can suggest an FDP doc for the test build... Cheers, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Aug 17 17:45:44 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:45:44 -0500 Subject: Using ulink In-Reply-To: <1124299903.10371.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817121840.d59929b7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <4303722E.3050302@redhat.com> <1124299903.10371.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050817124544.b8d0123e.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > On the other hand, if FOP can't support a pretty basic DocBook function > like this, I wonder where else it might fall down. Frankly, I don't > know how much anyone cares about PDF generation for these things; if you > can see it in a Web browser, you can print it, save it, whatever. CSS > will take care of eliminating Web navigation paraphrenalia (see Red Hat > Magazine for some good usage). We need PDF's for professional, production-level printing. After all, the whole reason for XML'ing rather than HTML'ing is to allow just this task: present in HTML & read in PDF. Some of us consultant types can actually make money from Fedora, ya know. Fedora: it isn't just for Red Hat anymore. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kara at computerroom.us Wed Aug 17 22:13:39 2005 From: kara at computerroom.us (Kara Pritchard) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:13:39 -0700 Subject: this is for you In-Reply-To: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: Sorry Karsten. I had a staffing change in my store and have been too busy to get started with anything. I am watching, however, to see if there are things I can help with until I can get a chance to sit down and look at things. -Kara On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > Maybe you introduced yourself, or are still lurking. > > Perhaps you have a document in progress, or an idea in process. > > The Documentation Project needs you to help keep the momentum going. > > * What is stopping you from submitting your document? > * From using CVS? > * Do you need more directions? > * Do you want fewer restrictions? > > The steering committee for this project is here to help you be > successful working on Fedora documentation. > > What can we do for you? > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > Kara Pritchard Phone: 618-398-3000 President, KS Computer Room Inc. kara at kspei.com Southern Illinois Linux Users Group www.silug.org -- From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 15:36:55 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:36:55 -0400 Subject: Using ulink In-Reply-To: <43037554.1050401@redhat.com> References: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43037554.1050401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124379416.5727.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 13:35 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 12:09 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > > >>Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > >> > >> > >>>But wait! It gets easier. DocBook XML specifies that when the XML tag > >>>closes itself (i.e. you don't provide any link text), the link itself is > >>>used as the text for any rendering process. So what you should probably > >>>do instead, for better XML readability, is this: > >>> > >>> > >> > >>Could you (or someone who has time) check this using a small example > >>with Apache FOP? This is so clever that it may not be implemented in > >>some rederers. IIRC, the tentative PDF rendering solution was to > >>involve FOP. > > > > > > Great idea -- I don't have FOP, but this is defined behavior in the > > DocBook standards (as opposed to any cleverness on my part -- I just > > read it in DocBook:TDG!), so I'll be very surprised if it doesn't > > deliver as promised. > > Keep in mind that this is the "recommended" behavior for the > stylesheets. In reality, an implementer can do whatever she wants. > > Fortunately, though, the (xsl) stylesheets are mostly developed by the > same folks who work on the DocBook schema standards, so the docbook xsl > stylesheets are likely compliant. > > > I'll yield this task to someone who has it > > installed. Is Mark Johnson out there? I thought he used FOP, but I'm > > not sure. > > I'd be happy to do a FOP build if someone can suggest an FDP doc for the > test build... Stuart's yum tutorial "yum-software-management" uses this XML syntax, so it would make a good test candidate. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Thu Aug 18 15:51:58 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:51:58 -0400 Subject: Using ulink In-Reply-To: <1124379416.5727.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43037554.1050401@redhat.com> <1124379416.5727.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4304AE9E.2000203@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 13:35 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: >> >>I'd be happy to do a FOP build if someone can suggest an FDP doc for the >>test build... > > > Stuart's yum tutorial "yum-software-management" uses this XML syntax, so > it would make a good test candidate. Hi Paul, OK, will give the yum tutorial a shot in the next few hours & report back. Thanks, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 18 19:58:08 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:58:08 -0700 Subject: docs ideas, dream big Message-ID: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> This is a great usage for good old Wiki: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas Throw your ideas into this thread or onto that page. One thing we lack is a list of what to write for new authors. I'd like to fix that. Look at: * What other distros are doing * What other OSes are doing * What your favorite technology does * What your favorite educators do This is a wish list. A dream list. Think big. But don't forget to also think small. - Karsten PS - I dug around bugzilla already, what you see on that page is what we've got so far. No wonder we don't have much to show for it! ;-) -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kevin.hobbs.1 at ohiou.edu Thu Aug 18 20:06:42 2005 From: kevin.hobbs.1 at ohiou.edu (Kevin H. Hobbs) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:06:42 -0400 Subject: Kernel Compile Lurker Message-ID: <1124395602.24883.22.camel@gargon.hooperlab> Grumble grumble. I've been lurking since the purchase of compatible hardware eliminated the need to compile kernels at work. However, I know it's important to get the Doc in CVS the webserver gets hit constantly for this. I'll go read the "Get CVS Access" stuff. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Aug 18 20:36:50 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:50 -0500 Subject: Kernel Compile Lurker In-Reply-To: <1124395602.24883.22.camel@gargon.hooperlab> References: <1124395602.24883.22.camel@gargon.hooperlab> Message-ID: <20050818153650.b50542ab.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Kevin H. Hobbs" , spake thus: > Grumble grumble. I've been lurking since the purchase of compatible > hardware eliminated the need to compile kernels at work. However, I know > it's important to get the Doc in CVS the webserver gets hit constantly > for this. Welcome back into the light of the Fedora day. Yes, a kernel building doc would be handy. I get asked for the process a couple of times a week over on the linux.redhat usenet. If you have any questions, just let me know via this list. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Aug 18 20:28:19 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:28:19 -0500 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050818152819.27d33fad.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas Great idea. Ugly page. Doesn't render correctly on my Firefox. > One thing we lack is a list of what to write for new authors. I'd like > to fix that. Yeah, the flesh is willing, but the mind has no clue. Like lots of engineers, tell me what you want and I can build it, but you gotta tell me first. Many authors are in the same boat. This should be a great solution to that problem. C'mon, folks, let's keep those cards and letters rolling in! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Thu Aug 18 21:14:02 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:14:02 -0400 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > One thing we lack is a list of what to write for new authors. I'd like > to fix that. > > Look at: > > * What other distros are doing For debian, browse this directory: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/ or, for an html version, as well as a more complete list of FAQs, HOWTOs, & shorter documents, see this page: http://www.debian.org/doc/ Also, the Debian Documentation Project (DDP) policy is here: http://www.nl.debian.org/doc/manuals/ddp-policy/ddp-policy.en.html Y'all can decide whether these links merit inclusion on the wiki page... HTH Cheers, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From mjohnson at redhat.com Thu Aug 18 21:49:07 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:49:07 -0400 Subject: Using ulink In-Reply-To: <1124379416.5727.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43037554.1050401@redhat.com> <1124379416.5727.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43050253.1060005@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 13:35 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: >>I'd be happy to do a FOP build if someone can suggest an FDP doc for the >>test build... > > Stuart's yum tutorial "yum-software-management" uses this XML syntax, so > it would make a good test candidate. I built the yum doc with FOP using the stock (*not* fdp) docbook-xsl stylesheets to see what the default ulink rendering behavior is. Looks like they do indeed render the value of the url attribute if the element is empty. If you wanna take a look, the build is here: http://people.redhat.com/mjohnson/fedora/yum-software-management-en.pdf Cheers, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From nman64 at n-man.com Thu Aug 18 22:09:36 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:09:36 -0500 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <20050818152819.27d33fad.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050818152819.27d33fad.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <43050720.1030506@n-man.com> Tommy Reynolds wrote: >Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > > > >>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas >> >> > >Great idea. Ugly page. Doesn't render correctly on my Firefox. > > > >>One thing we lack is a list of what to write for new authors. I'd like >>to fix that. >> >> > >Yeah, the flesh is willing, but the mind has no clue. Like lots of >engineers, tell me what you want and I can build it, but you gotta >tell me first. Many authors are in the same boat. This should be a >great solution to that problem. > >C'mon, folks, let's keep those cards and letters rolling in! > > I've worked on the page a little, to try to get it rendering a little easier. It works in the browsers I've tested it with, except a low resolutions. If you're looking at it at 640x480, I can't really help you. Tables, especially in a wiki, are tricky that way. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 18 23:18:48 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:18:48 -0700 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <43050720.1030506@n-man.com> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050818152819.27d33fad.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <43050720.1030506@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124407128.916.13.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-08-18 at 17:09 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > I've worked on the page a little, to try to get it rendering a little > easier. It works in the browsers I've tested it with, except a low > resolutions. If you're looking at it at 640x480, I can't really help > you. Tables, especially in a wiki, are tricky that way. I was going to do a bulleted list because of how tables don't play nicely. Your version looks much better, I see how you accomplished that with the extra whitespace. Thanks. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 18 23:34:37 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:34:37 -0700 Subject: this is for you In-Reply-To: References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124408077.916.27.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 09:02 -0500, Kara Pritchard wrote: > Sorry Karsten. I had a staffing change in my store and have been too busy > to get started with anything. I am watching, however, to see if there are > things I can help with until I can get a chance to sit down and look at > things. No worries. Thanks for the status reply. Anything we can do to help, let us know. cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Fri Aug 19 00:08:24 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:08:24 +0100 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> On Thu, 2005-08-18 at 17:14 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: > Karsten Wade wrote: > > > One thing we lack is a list of what to write for new authors. I'd like > > to fix that. > > > > Look at: > > > > * What other distros are doing > > For debian, browse this directory: > > http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/ > > or, for an html version, as well as a more complete list of FAQs, > HOWTOs, & shorter documents, see this page: > > http://www.debian.org/doc/ > > > Also, the Debian Documentation Project (DDP) policy is here: > > http://www.nl.debian.org/doc/manuals/ddp-policy/ddp-policy.en.html > > Y'all can decide whether these links merit inclusion on the wiki page... I've poked through these, and these ideas look applicable to us: - Reporting Bugs (it would be nice to have a short walkthrough that we could link to, there's currently a mostly empty Wiki page for this: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReportingBugs). - "Command-line survival kit". Basically a list of common tasks and which commands to use to get things done. Bits of sections 3-5: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/users-guide/users-guide.en.html They have a fair amount on the mechanics of how the distribution is run, and what packagers should know, which are areas where we are perhaps weak. Their user manuals are less impressive (IMO), as they seem to overlap with each other, and with TLDP docs - references for using the command-line, and short pieces on configuring network services. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 00:35:29 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:35:29 -0700 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1124411729.916.43.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 01:08 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > - Reporting Bugs (it would be nice to have a short walkthrough that we > could link to, there's currently a mostly empty Wiki page for this: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReportingBugs). Added to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas. > - "Command-line survival kit". Basically a list of common tasks and > which commands to use to get things done. Bits of sections 3-5: > http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/users-guide/users-guide.en.html Added to DocIdeas. > They have a fair amount on the mechanics of how the distribution is run, > and what packagers should know, which are areas where we are perhaps > weak. > > Their user manuals are less impressive (IMO), as they seem to overlap > with each other, and with TLDP docs - references for using the > command-line, and short pieces on configuring network services. This sparked an idea for a Fedora Guide to Useful Linux Documentation. This would have links to fora and TLDP that are applicable/useful to Fedora. I added the release notes beats to this page, as well. Time to start banging that drum. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 00:37:25 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:37:25 -0700 Subject: mentors Message-ID: <1124411845.916.45.camel@erato.phig.org> A new project/idea has been started about pairing experienced Fedora community members with new community members. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors There are lots of ways to help as a mentor. Technical, cultural, factual, simply how to find people and get stuff done. We ask that all mentoring is done on-list, where feasible. An alternative is to report back to the list with summaries of off-list work. This way we all learn from each other. Recognize that mentoring happens all the time on Fedora lists. This is a way of elevating the process, and making sure that people who care enough to seek out this level of help are paired with someone who can take the time to answer. If you are a mentor or a mentee, take a look and get involved. We are one of the first projects piloting this idea. Whatever we learn can be taken to the other projects, and hopefully create something the community at large can use. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Fri Aug 19 01:10:17 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 02:10:17 +0100 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124411729.916.43.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> <1124411729.916.43.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124413817.3173.52.camel@Vigor10> On Thu, 2005-08-18 at 17:35 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Their user manuals are less impressive (IMO), as they seem to overlap > > with each other, and with TLDP docs - references for using the > > command-line, and short pieces on configuring network services. > > This sparked an idea for a Fedora Guide to Useful Linux Documentation. > This would have links to fora and TLDP that are applicable/useful to > Fedora. That would be a useful thing to have. I wrote some material a while ago that we could reuse to start this off: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/nextsteps-en/ (the Finding Help section) DocBook source: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/next-steps.tar.gz > I added the release notes beats to this page, as well. Time to start > banging that drum. Can't start too early :). -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 01:12:19 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:42:19 +0530 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <430531F3.90402@redhat.com> Hi >- Reporting Bugs (it would be nice to have a short walkthrough that we >could link to, there's currently a mostly empty Wiki page for this: >http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReportingBugs). > Its not a mostly empty page anymore. I fixed that regards Rahul From stuart at elsn.org Fri Aug 19 01:34:57 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 02:34:57 +0100 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124413817.3173.52.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> <1124411729.916.43.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124413817.3173.52.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1124415298.3173.61.camel@Vigor10> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 02:10 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Thu, 2005-08-18 at 17:35 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > Their user manuals are less impressive (IMO), as they seem to overlap > > > with each other, and with TLDP docs - references for using the > > > command-line, and short pieces on configuring network services. > > > > This sparked an idea for a Fedora Guide to Useful Linux Documentation. > > This would have links to fora and TLDP that are applicable/useful to > > Fedora. > > That would be a useful thing to have. I wrote some material a while ago > that we could reuse to start this off: > > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/nextsteps-en/ (the Finding > Help section) > > DocBook source: > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/next-steps.tar.gz > I've just looked at this, the Novell/OpenSUSE User Guide: http://www.novell.com/documentation/suse93/pdfdoc/user93-screen/user93-screen.pdf Section 5, "Help and Documentation". Note that it's a 5Mb download - they don't seem to have a HTML version up yet. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Fri Aug 19 01:42:00 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 02:42:00 +0100 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <430531F3.90402@redhat.com> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> <430531F3.90402@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124415720.3173.64.camel@Vigor10> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 06:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > >- Reporting Bugs (it would be nice to have a short walkthrough that we > >could link to, there's currently a mostly empty Wiki page for this: > >http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReportingBugs). > > > Its not a mostly empty page anymore. I fixed that > > regards > Rahul Cool. Would it be worth converting into DocBook, or is it better on the Wiki where developers can update it ? -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 01:46:58 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:16:58 +0530 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124415720.3173.64.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> <430531F3.90402@redhat.com> <1124415720.3173.64.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <43053A12.1040008@redhat.com> Stuart Ellis wrote: >On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 06:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Hi >> >> >> >>>- Reporting Bugs (it would be nice to have a short walkthrough that we >>>could link to, there's currently a mostly empty Wiki page for this: >>>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReportingBugs). >>> >>> >>> >>Its not a mostly empty page anymore. I fixed that >> >>regards >>Rahul >> >> > >Cool. Would it be worth converting into DocBook, or is it better on the >Wiki where developers can update it ? > > > I would prefer more updates first in the wiki but i dont mind a conversion in a parallel fashion if anyone is willing to do that regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 01:49:13 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:49:13 -0700 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124415720.3173.64.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> <430531F3.90402@redhat.com> <1124415720.3173.64.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1124416153.916.82.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 02:42 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > Cool. Would it be worth converting into DocBook, or is it better on the > Wiki where developers can update it ? Let's keep it on the Wiki for a while. Advertise it to the developers to tweak. When/if it settles down, we'll codify it. Meanwhile, we can include a snapshot of it in the release notes. So, for that matter, yeah, we'll need to DocBookify it for the test1 notes. Maybe make a note in a comment block in the source of the Wiki page about where the XML is kept in CVS. Wiki is canonical until we switch. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Fri Aug 19 08:05:35 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 03:05:35 -0500 Subject: Using ulink In-Reply-To: <43050253.1060005@redhat.com> References: <1124297320.10371.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050817120934.595fbd6a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124298878.10371.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43037554.1050401@redhat.com> <1124379416.5727.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43050253.1060005@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050819030535.c48640b3.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Mark Johnson , spake thus: > If you wanna take a look, the build is here: > > http://people.redhat.com/mjohnson/fedora/yum-software-management-en.pdf Nice! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stuart at elsn.org Fri Aug 19 13:40:06 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:40:06 +0100 Subject: Doc ideas - Python, Java, PostgreSQL Message-ID: <1124458806.2979.13.camel@Vigor10> I've just added a few more ideas to: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas These are a bit vague so anybody with an interest, please feel free to comment or rewrite what's in the Wiki. - PostgreSQL: Last meeting Gavin noted that we don't have anything on Postgres. Fedora ships with PostgreSQL 8 and some specific admin tools, so it would be great to promote this. - Overview of the Free Java stack. - Overview of Python Development with Fedora (or Fedora Development with Python ?). Not so much a "Hello World" tutorial as "what is it, why it's good, how to set it up, and where to find the tutorials". More people working with Python = more patches :). -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 14:08:25 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:08:25 -0400 Subject: Doc ideas - Python, Java, PostgreSQL In-Reply-To: <1124458806.2979.13.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124458806.2979.13.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1124460505.4469.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 14:40 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > I've just added a few more ideas to: > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas > > These are a bit vague so anybody with an interest, please feel free to > comment or rewrite what's in the Wiki. > > - PostgreSQL: Last meeting Gavin noted that we don't have anything on > Postgres. Fedora ships with PostgreSQL 8 and some specific admin tools, > so it would be great to promote this. > > - Overview of the Free Java stack. > > - Overview of Python Development with Fedora (or Fedora Development with > Python ?). Not so much a "Hello World" tutorial as "what is it, why > it's good, how to set it up, and where to find the tutorials". > > More people working with Python = more patches :). These are good ideas. We need to concentrate on the Fedora-specific sector of documenting any developer tools, with the intention not to replace the product manuals but rather to get people to the point where they can start using those product manuals. This is especially vital when we have a relative dearth of current Fedora guides for quite a number of more fundamental areas. Therefore, a guide to using PostgreSQL would not be good, but Stuart's idea for a guide to what PostgreSQL "stuff" is available on Fedora, how to install it, and where to find the official documentation is great. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From plasticmonkey at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 15:46:39 2005 From: plasticmonkey at gmail.com (Philip Johnson) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:46:39 +0100 Subject: this is for you In-Reply-To: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: Sorry this isn't GPG signed, as usual I'm away from my main boxes. My excuse is pretty much the same as Karas to be honest, I'm just too damn busy with work to be able to do anything useful at the moment. I too am watching. What *would* IMHO be useful though is a list of small documents or sections that need writing (there may already be one, I haven't looked). That way, when I have a few minutes stopping for a coffee I can get a little bit done. Regards, -- Philip Johnson (PlasticMonkey) +44 (0)20 7870 2206 Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From nman64 at n-man.com Fri Aug 19 16:26:57 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:26:57 -0500 Subject: this is for you In-Reply-To: References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <43060851.4010504@n-man.com> Philip Johnson wrote: >Sorry this isn't GPG signed, as usual I'm away from my main boxes. > >My excuse is pretty much the same as Karas to be honest, I'm just too >damn busy with work to be able to do anything useful at the moment. > >I too am watching. What *would* IMHO be useful though is a list of >small documents or sections that need writing (there may already be >one, I haven't looked). > >That way, when I have a few minutes stopping for a coffee I can get a >little bit done. > >Regards, > > > A good place to start would be http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From plasticmonkey at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 16:57:01 2005 From: plasticmonkey at gmail.com (Philip Johnson) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:57:01 +0100 Subject: this is for you In-Reply-To: <43060851.4010504@n-man.com> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <43060851.4010504@n-man.com> Message-ID: On 8/19/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Philip Johnson wrote: [snip] > A good place to start would be > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas > Thanks, but I was thinking of parts of documentation which would maybe take 30-50 minutes of time max? It would be better that way because I'd be able to find time in between things to write it, whereas big mainstream documents I wouldn't. That list will come in useful when I get a large chunk of spare time though, thanks. > -- > Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes > nman64 at n-man.com > > www.n-man.com Regards, -- Philip Johnson (PlasticMonkey) +44 (0)20 7870 2206 Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From mjohnson at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 17:57:03 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:57:03 -0400 Subject: Doc ideas - Python, Java, PostgreSQL In-Reply-To: <1124458806.2979.13.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124458806.2979.13.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <43061D6F.7030807@redhat.com> Stuart Ellis wrote: > I've just added a few more ideas to: > > - Overview of the Free Java stack. I would *love* to see some docs on this - and might even be able to work with a developer to get something written up. I simply don't have the chops at present to tackle this by myself. Cheers, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From stuart at elsn.org Fri Aug 19 18:59:14 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:59:14 +0100 Subject: this is for you In-Reply-To: References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <43060851.4010504@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124477955.3101.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 17:57 +0100, Philip Johnson wrote: > On 8/19/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > Philip Johnson wrote: > [snip] > > A good place to start would be > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas > > > > Thanks, but I was thinking of parts of documentation which would maybe > take 30-50 minutes of time max? > > It would be better that way because I'd be able to find time in > between things to write it, whereas big mainstream documents I > wouldn't. Here's an idea that might interest you: short presentations. OOo Impress will export to both HTML and Flash, which suggests that it could be technically easy to put together little demos or featurelets that could be played in a variety of contexts. The trick would be making them interesting to watch. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 21:52:12 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:52:12 -0700 Subject: this is for you In-Reply-To: References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <43060851.4010504@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124488332.22190.13.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 17:57 +0100, Philip Johnson wrote: > Thanks, but I was thinking of parts of documentation which would maybe > take 30-50 minutes of time max? You could take on a small release notes beat: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats These beats are designed to be filled by more than one person. If you don't have the time or desire to write the XML, you can do something like this: 1) Keep a Wiki page with notes ongoing throughout the devel cycle 2) Make up a single bug report that has this content or points to the Wiki page, made out against the release-notes component. Just do this within the development timeframe, and it can get into the main release notes. We'll release a schedule soon about this, so people can know when to get changes in for translation, etc. We also need to reconsider a structure on the Wiki this for this. This works great for someone who is able to keep up with some areas of personal interest, and share the latest features and nastiest bugs with us all. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Fri Aug 19 23:36:52 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:36:52 -0500 Subject: this is for you In-Reply-To: <1124488332.22190.13.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <43060851.4010504@n-man.com> <1124488332.22190.13.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <43066D14.9040507@n-man.com> Karsten Wade wrote: >On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 17:57 +0100, Philip Johnson wrote: > > > >>Thanks, but I was thinking of parts of documentation which would maybe >>take 30-50 minutes of time max? >> >> > >You could take on a small release notes beat: > >http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats > >These beats are designed to be filled by more than one person. > >If you don't have the time or desire to write the XML, you can do >something like this: > >1) Keep a Wiki page with notes ongoing throughout the devel cycle > >2) Make up a single bug report that has this content or points to the >Wiki page, made out against the release-notes component. > >Just do this within the development timeframe, and it can get into the >main release notes. > >We'll release a schedule soon about this, so people can know when to get >changes in for translation, etc. We also need to reconsider a structure >on the Wiki this for this. > >This works great for someone who is able to keep up with some areas of >personal interest, and share the latest features and nastiest bugs with >us all. > >- Karsten > > I'm sure this won't surprise you, but I would be happy to help out in setting up something like that on the wiki. Give me a run-down of what you see the needs being, and write up a quick summary of what you have in mind, and I'll start trying to come up with something suitable. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Aug 20 05:40:30 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:40:30 -0700 Subject: this is for you In-Reply-To: <43066D14.9040507@n-man.com> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <43060851.4010504@n-man.com> <1124488332.22190.13.camel@erato.phig.org> <43066D14.9040507@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124516431.22190.45.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 18:36 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > I'm sure this won't surprise you, but I would be happy to help out in > setting up something like that on the wiki. Give me a run-down of what > you see the needs being, and write up a quick summary of what you have > in mind, and I'll start trying to come up with something suitable. Yes, in fact, the only reason I didn't seek you out already is that I'm in discussions with the designer of http://developer.mozilla.org, looking for tips on how they organized stuff. While I personally don't want to work on much more than a single page through a Wiki, others obviously feel otherwise. We'll do what we can to accommodate that. For example, we're looking into ways to work on DocBook _through_ the Wiki. I've proved to myself that we can't work on a massive release notes through the Wiki, but it makes a great place to keep notes and possibly do some authoring. So, perhaps a relatively flat namespace, such as: wiki/ReleaseNotes/BeatName With a caveat at the top this is a workspace and not a release space? Maybe wiki/Drafts/ReleaseNotes/... would be better, make it more obvious it is a drafting space. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Sat Aug 20 09:33:25 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:33:25 +0100 Subject: Doc ideas - Python, Java, PostgreSQL In-Reply-To: <43061D6F.7030807@redhat.com> References: <1124458806.2979.13.camel@Vigor10> <43061D6F.7030807@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124530405.3196.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 13:57 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: > Stuart Ellis wrote: > > I've just added a few more ideas to: > > > > - Overview of the Free Java stack. > > I would *love* to see some docs on this - and might even be able to work > with a developer to get something written up. I simply don't have the > chops at present to tackle this by myself. > > Cheers, > Mark > I think that it would great even it's just a brief description of what is now available. A few weeks ago I was in a not particularly technical presentation at a UNIX conference where the presenter asked the audience about the programming languages they used, and more than half the audience put their hands up for Java. It struck me that most of them probably aren't aware of the Free Java in FC4 yet, since it hasn't gotten that much press. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Sat Aug 20 10:45:38 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:45:38 +0200 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> Am Dienstag, den 16.08.2005, 14:09 -0700 schrieb Karsten Wade: > New $SUBJECT reflects the fact that my semi-punny Subject from before > was too spammy. in the context of this list it's perhaps provoking (in it's best sense), but I think this type of mail is needed ;-) > On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 19:41 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Maybe you introduced yourself, or are still lurking. > > > > Perhaps you have a document in progress, or an idea in process. > > > > The Documentation Project needs you to help keep the momentum going. I'm one of those guys who are lurking around and I have several (smaller) pieces of documentation text in my desks drawer. > > > > * What is stopping you from submitting your document? Well, I for myself are suffering from some lack of orientation. I'm not able to see in detail how several of my ideas and my texts may fit into the scene. - I'm missing a list, something like a "Table Of Content", about the topics, which should make up "Fedora Core Documentation" when it is ready. If such a list were available I could check weather one of my texts may fit - I'm missing a list, who is currently working on *what*. There is the bugzilla entry (102668), but it seams to be out of date. (On the web there is a list of who is contributing, but not what) As an example: I just wrote a text (about 8 pages) to assist some of my staff members to set up a samba server on FC 4. I consired to contribute it to the fedora doku project. I found in Bugzilla 102668 that Aaron M. Epps is working on that topic, but I couldn't find information about the details of his work nor about the progress. I found nothing about it in CVS yet. So I don't know how to proceed, and the text is going to vanish in the desk drawer. > > * Do you need more directions? > > * Do you want fewer restrictions? Maybe both of it. Perhaps you should establish some sort of "early stage approval process". Something like: - address to whom send the titel and a draft toc for a documentation text - recieve a decision to accept it for the documentation (if it meets the quality criteria when it is finished) or not (because the topic is out of range, not needed or whatever) - assigning a sponsor to assist in all further steps - establish some sort of feedback procedure. Perhaps the list about maintained and orphaned packages on fedora extra may serve as a template - I read some contributors set up there one web page to present their work in an early stage in order to receive feedback. You may find the addresses in the mail archive but you have to spend some efforts to find it. A link list of such early stage contributions would be helpful. > > The steering committee for this project is here to help you be > > successful working on Fedora documentation. Well, just some ideas from my perspective. I would appreciate if I could contribute some of my texts in a way which is managable for me instead of letting them vanish in the desk drawer :-) Peter From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Aug 20 10:56:32 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:26:32 +0530 Subject: Doc ideas - Python, Java, PostgreSQL In-Reply-To: <43061D6F.7030807@redhat.com> References: <1124458806.2979.13.camel@Vigor10> <43061D6F.7030807@redhat.com> Message-ID: <43070C60.4070203@redhat.com> Mark Johnson wrote: > Stuart Ellis wrote: > >> I've just added a few more ideas to: >> >> - Overview of the Free Java stack. > > > I would *love* to see some docs on this - and might even be able to > work with a developer to get something written up. I simply don't have > the chops at present to tackle this by myself. > > Cheers, > Mark > There is a short FAQ here http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JavaFAQ It might be a good idea to use the wiki as a staging place for all draft documents before they get pushed into cvs regards Rahul From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Sat Aug 20 11:20:23 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:20:23 +0200 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124536823.5203.55.camel@littlePiet> Am Samstag, den 20.08.2005, 12:45 +0200 schrieb Peter Boy: > - I'm missing a list, who is currently working on *what*. There is the > bugzilla entry (102668), but it seams to be out of date. > (On the web there is a list of who is contributing, but not what) Sorry, just found it myself on ( http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/EditorAssignments ) Perhaps this page should get a more prominent place? > - establish some sort of feedback procedure. Perhaps the list > about maintained and orphaned packages on fedora extra may > serve as a template no need to invent the whell again :-) Maybe there is a way to add information about the state of progress and a last modification date? Peter From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Aug 20 11:27:27 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:57:27 +0530 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1124536823.5203.55.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> <1124536823.5203.55.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <4307139F.5020809@redhat.com> Hi >no need to invent the whell again :-) Maybe there is a way to add >information about the state of progress and a last modification date? > > I already suggested putting in a autobuild system to grab everything from cvs and put in say fedora.redhat.com/docs/drafts with a warning on top that its a work in progress. Also a weekly or bi weekly peer review on the list as suggested by Stuart Ellis is a good thing to have regards Rahul From stuart at elsn.org Sat Aug 20 13:34:13 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:34:13 +0100 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124544853.3196.108.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 12:45 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > - I'm missing a list, something like a "Table Of Content", about the > topics, which should make up "Fedora Core Documentation" when it is > ready. If such a list were available I could check weather one of my > texts may fit One of the main ideas of the Fedora Project is that it's community driven, i.e. it provides a framework to enable people to do the things that they themselves consider important. The Docs Project provides various kinds of support and infrastructure for publishing and maintaining documentation, but they are really processes and don't impose restrictions on content. The requirements on content are something like this: the documents have to be relevant to Fedora Core or Extras, and they have to be of sufficient standard before publishing to the Website. The general consensus is also that it is best to keep documents focused, and avoid reinventing existing resources. It's worth noting that not all of the process stuff has to be done at once. If somebody feels more comfortable drafting in plain-text to get started then we can help people with DocBook and CVS as they need it. Similarly, the drafts aren't expected to be perfect. It's normal for each round of editing and review to result in lots of action items, and I hope that nobody is put off by the long e-mails that result from each peer review. Praise just takes fewer words than discussing even trivial fixes. Hope that's a helpful summary. > - I'm missing a list, who is currently working on *what*. There is the > bugzilla entry (102668), but it seams to be out of date. > (On the web there is a list of who is contributing, but not what) The EditorAssignments page has been mentioned, which was written as a stock list of everything that had come into contact with the project. I'll rearrange it to reflect what's currently happening in CVS. > As an example: > > I just wrote a text (about 8 pages) to assist some of my staff members > to set up a samba server on FC 4. I consired to contribute it to the > fedora doku project. I found in Bugzilla 102668 that Aaron M. Epps is > working on that topic, but I couldn't find information about the details > of his work nor about the progress. I found nothing about it in CVS yet. > So I don't know how to proceed, and the text is going to vanish in the > desk drawer. > > > > * Do you need more directions? > > > * Do you want fewer restrictions? > > Maybe both of it. Perhaps you should establish some sort of "early stage > approval process". Something like: > > - address to whom send the titel and a draft toc for a documentation > text We have a "New Writers" page which we push as much as we can: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters If there a way that we can make this easier to find, or clearer, then please let me know. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Aug 20 15:39:20 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:39:20 -0400 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124552360.20801.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 12:45 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 19:41 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > Maybe you introduced yourself, or are still lurking. > > > > > > Perhaps you have a document in progress, or an idea in process. > > > > > > The Documentation Project needs you to help keep the momentum going. > > I'm one of those guys who are lurking around and I have several > (smaller) pieces of documentation text in my desks drawer. Woo-hoo! Fresh meat! > > > * What is stopping you from submitting your document? > > Well, I for myself are suffering from some lack of orientation. I'm not > able to see in detail how several of my ideas and my texts may fit into > the scene. Then posting to the list is definitely the right thing to do. When you come to the table with raw material and the willingness to help shape it into a new doc, you are providing the most valuable contribution to the Docs Project! > - I'm missing a list, something like a "Table Of Content", about the > topics, which should make up "Fedora Core Documentation" when it is > ready. If such a list were available I could check weather one of my > texts may fit I know you've found the Editor Assignments page on the Wiki, which is a list of everything we know about at this point, although quite a number of documents on that page are stale due to inactivity. In some cases docs are promised but not delivered, and in others they are delivered but the author doesn't work on them, and in still others editors have not promptly reviewed, fixed, or discussed the work with the authors. More participation is a good fix for that problem. > - I'm missing a list, who is currently working on *what*. There is the > bugzilla entry (102668), but it seams to be out of date. > (On the web there is a list of who is contributing, but not what) > > As an example: > > I just wrote a text (about 8 pages) to assist some of my staff members > to set up a samba server on FC 4. I consired to contribute it to the > fedora doku project. I found in Bugzilla 102668 that Aaron M. Epps is > working on that topic, but I couldn't find information about the details > of his work nor about the progress. I found nothing about it in CVS yet. > So I don't know how to proceed, and the text is going to vanish in the > desk drawer. I haven't seen anything on that document either. I hereby declare it dead and ask that you take up the banner. Feel free to start fresh, because we have no raw material, AFAIK. > > > * Do you need more directions? > > > * Do you want fewer restrictions? > > Maybe both of it. Perhaps you should establish some sort of "early stage > approval process". Something like: [...snip...] Something like this? :-) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters The upshot of the checklist: - Post your idea here for discussion (start a new thread) - Write and post initial draft for peer review (post link here) and ask for an editor - Apply for CVS access - Work with the editor to finish the doc - One of the web-empowered editors will publish the doc > > > The steering committee for this project is here to help you be > > > successful working on Fedora documentation. > > Well, just some ideas from my perspective. I would appreciate if I could > contribute some of my texts in a way which is managable for me instead > of letting them vanish in the desk drawer :-) I think you're on the right track just by posting. You're well on your way graduating from "lurker" to "documentation demiurge"! :-) Please keep the questions coming, since you are probably helping more people than you think. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Sat Aug 20 19:10:51 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:10:51 +0200 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1124544853.3196.108.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> <1124544853.3196.108.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124565051.5203.89.camel@littlePiet> Am Samstag, den 20.08.2005, 14:34 +0100 schrieb Stuart Ellis: > On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 12:45 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > > - I'm missing a list, something like a "Table Of Content", about the > > topics, which should make up "Fedora Core Documentation" when it is > > ready. If such a list were available I could check weather one of my > > texts may fit > > One of the main ideas of the Fedora Project is that it's community > driven, i.e. it provides a framework to enable people to do the things > that they themselves consider important. The Docs Project provides > various kinds of support and infrastructure for publishing and > maintaining documentation, but they are really processes and don't > impose restrictions on content. Fully agreed. But :-) In order to achieve a comprehensive and well structured "Fedora Documentation" I suppose some over all planning is helpful. And despite being community driven somebody has to make the initial step. I think the FDSCo is the only one who can this do. Such a framework being available may inspire one of the other lurkers here to contribute a chapter. (By the way would be interesting why a lot of people are just lurking. May be they have no time left, may be they get no idea what to contribute under the restriction of their time table). > [ .... ] > Hope that's a helpful summary. It is, yes. Thanks. > We have a "New Writers" page which we push as much as we can: > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters > > If there a way that we can make this easier to find, or clearer, then > please let me know. OK, this is highly speculative and to some extend a matter of personal taste. But perhaps there is too much information about too many different topics on the initial page ( http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ ). May be you should consider to restructure it a little bit. In the upper part you should place text and link to the available end user documentation (currently it mainly is internal project documentation, not what I would expect intuitively as "Fedora Documentation"). It should be followed by a short presentation and description of the goals of the FDP, and link to the page, where where all the ongoing work is listet (the current EditorAssignments). May be a more descriptive label is "ongoing work". There shouldn't be other links around it so it's easy to perceive. Next may follow a paragraph about the need for contributers and here a link zu the new contributors page. Again, just a single link in the paragraph. At the ende there should be all the information about the project details and all the other links, especially to the details page. Peter From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Aug 20 19:15:31 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:45:31 +0530 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1124565051.5203.89.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> <1124544853.3196.108.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124565051.5203.89.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <43078153.5000803@redhat.com> Hi > >In order to achieve a comprehensive and well structured "Fedora >Documentation" I suppose some over all planning is helpful. And despite >being community driven somebody has to make the initial step. I think >the FDSCo is the only one who can this do. > FDSco people are all signed in here and would appreciate any ideas that helps them improve the process. Pariticipating in these discussions over IRC on meeting days can help. > >OK, this is highly speculative and to some extend a matter of personal >taste. But perhaps there is too much information about too many >different topics on the initial page >( http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ ). May be you should >consider to restructure it a little bit. > Do you wiki access. If not register and let me your user name off list and I will add you to the edit group. An open invitation to everyone else here too. You can do such restructuring yourself after consulting with other docs project participants over #fedora-docs if that is appealing to you regards Rahul From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Sat Aug 20 19:57:21 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:57:21 +0200 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1124552360.20801.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> <1124552360.20801.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124567841.5203.109.camel@littlePiet> Am Samstag, den 20.08.2005, 11:39 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > > I'm one of those guys who are lurking around and I have several > > (smaller) pieces of documentation text in my desks drawer. > > Woo-hoo! Fresh meat! Yes, but no chick (born in the 50th) :-) > > As an example: > > > > I just wrote a text (about 8 pages) to assist some of my staff members > > to set up a samba server on FC 4. I consired to contribute it to the > > fedora doku project. I found in Bugzilla 102668 that Aaron M. Epps is > > working on that topic, but I couldn't find information about the details > > of his work nor about the progress. I found nothing about it in CVS yet. > > So I don't know how to proceed, and the text is going to vanish in the > > desk drawer. > > I haven't seen anything on that document either. I hereby declare it > dead and ask that you take up the banner. Feel free to start fresh, > because we have no raw material, AFAIK. OK. I will go to the NewWriters page, follow the described steps and open a new subject for the samba doku. > Something like this? :-) > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters Yes, but maybe I didn't understood it in it's full sense during my initial reading. Maybe it is helpful to add a paragraph between "Signing up" and "Writing you own Documentation" with a title like "Introduce your documentation idea and get your ticket" of something like that, which describes the process using the mailing list. You may add a short comment that this list is not as non-committal as a lot of other lists is. It may be helpful to emphasize the purpose to coordinate the work without spending to much work in the first step and to make sure nobody duplicates another one's work (no waste of time). > I think you're on the right track just by posting. You're well on your > way graduating from "lurker" to "documentation demiurge"! :-) Please > keep the questions coming, since you are probably helping more people > than you think. Thanks for the kindly words. Peter From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Sat Aug 20 20:12:26 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:12:26 +0200 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <43078153.5000803@redhat.com> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> <1124544853.3196.108.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124565051.5203.89.camel@littlePiet> <43078153.5000803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124568746.5203.114.camel@littlePiet> Am Sonntag, den 21.08.2005, 00:45 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > FDSco people are all signed in here and would appreciate any ideas that > helps them improve the process. Pariticipating in these discussions over > IRC on meeting days can help. I never used IRC before. I'll install the software and try to follow the discussion. > Do you wiki access. If not register and let me your user name off list > and I will add you to the edit group. Not having contributed one real piece of documentation yet I didn't want to be so invasive. I will register and come back. Peter From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Sat Aug 20 22:22:18 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:22:18 +0200 Subject: Self-Introduction: Peter Boy Message-ID: <1124576538.5203.168.camel@littlePiet> Following the format of the Fedora Documentation Project self-intro at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SelfIntroduction 1. Full legal name Peter Boy * City, Country; Bremen, Germany * Profession or Student status senior scientist, research fellow (social science research methods and statistical computing) managing director of the research institut IT infrastructure * Company or School University of Bremen, Germany * Your goals in the Fedora Project * What do you want to write about? - planning guides, integration of heterogeneous systems; - Administration / tutorials about Samba, LDAP, databases (esp. Postgres, MySQL, UDB), Apache, Tomcat, Sendmail, Postfix; - Installing / using Java; * What other documentation do you want to see published? Nothing specifically. Would like to see a comprehensive and well structured Fedora documentation in order to help it to usable for a large community. * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? I'm not a native English speaker, but could comment on overall structure and technical accuracy of a document. * Anything else special? - Can do translation (to German) - As a scientist I have some experience in planning and writing technically oriented articles and books, which might be helpful here sometimes * Historical qualifications * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? - Wrote several articles about installing, maintaining and using linux systems and programs (non-linux, too) - Contributed to IBM Redbook (ITSO, Austin) (was about OS/2) - teaching students (using linux for different scientific reseach tasks) - maintained some rpms for Linux based Sun systems * What level and type of computer skills do you have? Experienced administrator and application program developer (mainly database related applications, client/server applications and web services) - being in business with various computer systems since 1970 - knowledge about AIX, OS/2, various linux distributions - programming skills in various languages, esp. C/C++, Java - Web site development (design, HTML/csss/php/Java, etc). * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc. - Organisation of team work - overall planing and development of conceptions for publications about specific topics * What makes you an excellent match for the project? I do a lot of writing on my job about Linux and generell IT topics which might be useful for FDP, too (hopefully) * GPG KEYID and fingerprint pub 1024D/59786EEA 2005-08-20 Peter Boy (Fedora Docs Project) sub 1024g/C695D937 2005-08-20 [verf?llt: 2010-08-19] From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Sun Aug 21 00:16:48 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:16:48 +0200 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 Message-ID: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> Hi, attached a rough draft for a step-by-step guide to set up a samba server. It is based on some internal documentation that I wrote for my staff. Current status: part 1 - 5 are nearly ready (in German) but needs some polishing/ clarification before disseminating and, of course, I have to do a translation. Peter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart at elsn.org Sun Aug 21 00:29:25 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:29:25 +0100 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1124565051.5203.89.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> <1124544853.3196.108.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124565051.5203.89.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124584166.3196.202.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 21:10 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Am Samstag, den 20.08.2005, 14:34 +0100 schrieb Stuart Ellis: > > On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 12:45 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > > > > - I'm missing a list, something like a "Table Of Content", about the > > > topics, which should make up "Fedora Core Documentation" when it is > > > ready. If such a list were available I could check weather one of my > > > texts may fit > > > > One of the main ideas of the Fedora Project is that it's community > > driven, i.e. it provides a framework to enable people to do the things > > that they themselves consider important. The Docs Project provides > > various kinds of support and infrastructure for publishing and > > maintaining documentation, but they are really processes and don't > > impose restrictions on content. > > Fully agreed. But :-) > > In order to achieve a comprehensive and well structured "Fedora > Documentation" I suppose some over all planning is helpful. And despite > being community driven somebody has to make the initial step. I think > the FDSCo is the only one who can this do. > > Such a framework being available may inspire one of the other lurkers > here to contribute a chapter. > > (By the way would be interesting why a lot of people are just lurking. > May be they have no time left, may be they get no idea what to > contribute under the restriction of their time table). I guess that you are envisaging a single large document. We've tended to aim for smaller and focused documents, as they get rapidly get harder for a volunteer project to produce and maintain to a consistent standard as they increase in scale. Having said that, one of the ideas currently on the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas is for a Fedora Desktop Guide, which breaks up into chapters. This could probably be done with 2-4 people. > > We have a "New Writers" page which we push as much as we can: > > > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters > > > > If there a way that we can make this easier to find, or clearer, then > > please let me know. > > OK, this is highly speculative and to some extend a matter of personal > taste. But perhaps there is too much information about too many > different topics on the initial page > ( http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ ). Thanks - this was very helpful. The main page and the New Writers page have now been restructured. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ivazquez at ivazquez.net Sun Aug 21 09:44:59 2005 From: ivazquez at ivazquez.net (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:44:59 -0400 Subject: Self-Introduction: Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams Message-ID: <1124617499.3414.42.camel@ignacio.lan> Name: Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Status: Freelance developer/sysadmin Goals: While a lot of very good basic end-user documentation has been written, as well as some sysadmin stuff, I can't help but feel that there's still a lack of documentation for users that are ready to take the leap from just using their system to actually manipulating it in ways beyond what the average user or sysadmin is expected to do. I hope that I can at least start to fill that hole. Historical Qualifications: Well, I don't really write much in the way of documentation, but samples of my writings are available all across Google ;) You can also check my Fedora website (http://fedora.ivazquez.net/) for some small samples of writing and editing. -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams http://fedora.ivazquez.net/ gpg --keyserver hkp://subkeys.pgp.net --recv-key 38028b72 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 13:59:41 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:59:41 -0400 Subject: Emacs validation Message-ID: <1124632781.3417.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> OK, gang, I'm kind of tired of the fact that my validation within Emacs has *never* worked correctly, so it makes doc writing/editing just a bit less enjoyable. When I do validation (C-c C-v), the validate command comes up as follows: nsgmls -wxml -s name-of-doc-en.xml When I run it, I get a *huge* number of errors such as this: = = = = = -*- mode: compilation; default-directory: "~/fedora/docs/jargon-buster/" -*- nsgmls -wxml -s jargon-buster-en.xml nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/docbookx.dtd:112:15:W: named character reference nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/docbookx.dtd:112:17:E: "X20AC" is not a function name nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/ent/iso-amsa.ent:8:17:W: named character reference = = = = = I can't believe this is what I should be seeing, since it happens even with documents that are perfectly fine as far as xmlto is concerned (i.e., "make" works fine). What am I missing that would make this a more joyful experience? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 15:32:33 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:32:33 -0400 Subject: Emacs validation In-Reply-To: <1124632781.3417.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124632781.3417.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124638353.5285.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 09:59 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > OK, gang, I'm kind of tired of the fact that my validation within Emacs > has *never* worked correctly, so it makes doc writing/editing just a bit > less enjoyable. When I do validation (C-c C-v), the validate command > comes up as follows: > > nsgmls -wxml -s name-of-doc-en.xml > > When I run it, I get a *huge* number of errors such as this: > > = = = = = > -*- mode: compilation; default-directory: "~/fedora/docs/jargon-buster/" > -*- > nsgmls -wxml -s jargon-buster-en.xml > nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/docbookx.dtd:112:15:W: named character reference > nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/docbookx.dtd:112:17:E: "X20AC" is not a function name > nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/ent/iso-amsa.ent:8:17:W: named character reference > = = = = = > > I can't believe this is what I should be seeing, since it happens even > with documents that are perfectly fine as far as xmlto is concerned > (i.e., "make" works fine). What am I missing that would make this a > more joyful experience? OK, answering my own question after some playing around. In Emacs, change the setting "Sgml Xml Declaration" to "xml.dcl" instead of "NONE," and everything works automagically. Why isn't this set by default by psgml or something else? Can anyone suggest where I should file this bug? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Sun Aug 21 18:03:53 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:03:53 +0100 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124647434.2948.26.camel@Vigor10> On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 02:16 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Hi, > > attached a rough draft for a step-by-step guide to set up a samba > server. It is based on some internal documentation that I wrote for my > staff. > > Current status: > > part 1 - 5 are nearly ready (in German) but needs some polishing/ > clarification before disseminating and, of course, I have to do a > translation. I look forward to seeing this - it appears to address precisely the needs of many users. Two things stand out: - I really like the fact that you appear to be concentrating on the supplied graphical tools. A lot of people edit the configuration files and get into difficulties when they could get the desired result with the system-config utilities. - Section 3 could be done as a series of active tests, rather than more passive statements. For example, if you say: "To test that user home directories are working, as per section 2, do X" you both reinforce the previous sections and ensure that section 3 has useful content in it's own right. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 18:25:58 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:25:58 -0400 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124648758.9214.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 02:16 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Hi, > > attached a rough draft for a step-by-step guide to set up a samba > server. It is based on some internal documentation that I wrote for my > staff. > > Current status: > > part 1 - 5 are nearly ready (in German) but needs some polishing/ > clarification before disseminating and, of course, I have to do a > translation. A hint for 2.1 -- avoid system-config-packages, since it will often fail for updated systems. Just include the yum instructions, since that should always work. To echo what Stuart said, thank you, *THANK YOU* for concentrating on GUI tools. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 21:50:25 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:50:25 -0400 Subject: Trackers obsolete? Message-ID: <1124661026.9214.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Now that we have our own product and components for docs, it seems to me that the "per-document" trackers, such as: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=ig-traqr https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=fdp-docguide-traqr ...have been rendered obsolete. I still like the idea of keeping the tracker bugs for ideas and works-in-progress, although I suspect they will be ignored in favor of the Wiki. (*sigh*) Comments? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Sun Aug 21 22:47:07 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:47:07 +0100 Subject: Trackers obsolete? In-Reply-To: <1124661026.9214.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124661026.9214.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124664427.9024.40.camel@Vigor10> On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 17:50 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Now that we have our own product and components for docs, it seems to me > that the "per-document" trackers, such as: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=ig-traqr > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=fdp-docguide-traqr > > ...have been rendered obsolete. I still like the idea of keeping the > tracker bugs for ideas and works-in-progress, although I suspect they > will be ignored in favor of the Wiki. (*sigh*) Comments? Yes, they're probably now redundant, but I don't actually see that as a bad thing - specific issues can obviously get individual bug numbers, more general discussion and review is probably better done here on list where it's visible. Material on the Wiki is also much more broadly visible and accessible in a way that Bugzilla isn't in practice. One other thing I find that I like about Wiki over Bugzilla is that you can update and *delete*, whereas Bugzilla comments clutter up the tracker bug forever. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Sun Aug 21 23:32:22 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:32:22 +0200 Subject: Trackers obsolete? In-Reply-To: <1124661026.9214.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124661026.9214.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124667142.5186.21.camel@littlePiet> Am Sonntag, den 21.08.2005, 17:50 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > Now that we have our own product and components for docs, it seems to me > that the "per-document" trackers, such as: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=ig-traqr > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=fdp-docguide-traqr > > ...have been rendered obsolete. I still like the idea of keeping the > tracker bugs for ideas and works-in-progress, although I suspect they > will be ignored in favor of the Wiki. (*sigh*) Comments? I suppose, the wiki is not very suitable to track work in progress. But perhaps their should be a system to close a bug, e.g. with the release of a piece of document (and open a new one for corrections, and a new one for modifications for a new release)?? (And the wiki should have a link to the bug entries). Peter From stickster at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 23:44:06 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:44:06 -0400 Subject: Trackers obsolete? In-Reply-To: <1124667142.5186.21.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124661026.9214.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124667142.5186.21.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124667846.3360.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 01:32 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Am Sonntag, den 21.08.2005, 17:50 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > > Now that we have our own product and components for docs, it seems to me > > that the "per-document" trackers, such as: > > > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=ig-traqr > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=fdp-docguide-traqr > > > > ...have been rendered obsolete. I still like the idea of keeping the > > tracker bugs for ideas and works-in-progress, although I suspect they > > will be ignored in favor of the Wiki. (*sigh*) Comments? > > I suppose, the wiki is not very suitable to track work in progress. But > perhaps their should be a system to close a bug, e.g. with the release > of a piece of document (and open a new one for corrections, and a new > one for modifications for a new release)?? (And the wiki should have a > link to the bug entries). WRT pieces of a doc, this you can definitely do in Bugzilla. A bug can be closed as RAWHIDE, meaning that CVS has the fix for that bug. A bug can be opened for a new document request ("docs-request" component), and a chapter or section could have its own bug hooked to that request bug by blocking it. As each section is finished, that bug is closed. When all the bugs for the request bug are closed, it's probably ready for final editorial. Then when it's published, if it doesn't already have one, it will get its own bugzilla component for enhancement requests, error reports, and so forth. I know what's in Bugzilla seems too permanent, but it also means that people's comments can't be discarded out of hand; the discussion is part of the permanent record in a single place that doesn't require clumsy surfing around the list archives. This is why so much development discussion occurs there. Just a thought... -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Sun Aug 21 23:54:45 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:54:45 +0200 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124648758.9214.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124648758.9214.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124668486.5186.27.camel@littlePiet> Am Sonntag, den 21.08.2005, 14:25 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > A hint for 2.1 -- avoid system-config-packages, since it will often fail > for updated systems. Just include the yum instructions, since that > should always work. I must admit that I nearly never use system-config-packages. But instead of not mention it it may be better to emphazise yum and rpm, but inform about s-c-packages and give the hint, that it sometimes may fail. Peter From stuart at elsn.org Mon Aug 22 00:21:17 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:21:17 +0100 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124668486.5186.27.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124648758.9214.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124668486.5186.27.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124670077.9024.64.camel@Vigor10> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 01:54 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Am Sonntag, den 21.08.2005, 14:25 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > > A hint for 2.1 -- avoid system-config-packages, since it will often fail > > for updated systems. Just include the yum instructions, since that > > should always work. > > I must admit that I nearly never use system-config-packages. But instead > of not mention it it may be better to emphazise yum and rpm, but inform > about s-c-packages and give the hint, that it sometimes may fail. Most experienced users know the limitations of system-config-packages (and usually avoid it), but it catches out the less knowledgeable people it's supposed to help most :(. Since yum now works on FC4 with no setup, it is probably the best software installation method to recommend at present. This format is relatively simple, and does the right thing without requiring much understanding on the part of the user: "1) Open a terminal window. 2) In the terminal window, type the following command: su -c 'yum install samba' When prompted, enter the root password" -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Mon Aug 22 00:27:35 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:27:35 +0200 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124647434.2948.26.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124647434.2948.26.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1124670455.5186.42.camel@littlePiet> Am Sonntag, den 21.08.2005, 19:03 +0100 schrieb Stuart Ellis: > I look forward to seeing this - it appears to address precisely the > needs of many users. Well, I will start to make a rough translation. By the way, what is the intended methods to make the first drafts available to the list? I write it with openoffice (I have to learn the docbook stuff) and can easily export it into html (the OO html code is astonishing clear). These formats should not be imported into CVS (what is the suggested method on the .../NewWriters page) in order not to mess it up, I suppose. I could easily post it as an attachement here or I can post a link to one of my servers. > Two things stand out: > > - I really like the fact that you appear to be concentrating on the > supplied graphical tools. Should be standard for a Fedora documentation. And, personally, I like the concept of the Fedora admin tools, small and effective, not these swiss-army-knife type of tools. > - Section 3 could be done as a series of active tests, rather than more > passive statements. Good idea, I'll Peter From stuart at elsn.org Mon Aug 22 00:39:35 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:39:35 +0100 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124670455.5186.42.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124647434.2948.26.camel@Vigor10> <1124670455.5186.42.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124671175.9024.73.camel@Vigor10> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 02:27 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Am Sonntag, den 21.08.2005, 19:03 +0100 schrieb Stuart Ellis: > > I look forward to seeing this - it appears to address precisely the > > needs of many users. > > Well, I will start to make a rough translation. > > By the way, what is the intended methods to make the first drafts > available to the list? I write it with openoffice (I have to learn the > docbook stuff) and can easily export it into html (the OO html code is > astonishing clear). These formats should not be imported into CVS (what > is the suggested method on the .../NewWriters page) in order not to mess > it up, I suppose. I could easily post it as an attachement here or I can > post a link to one of my servers. Posting a link to HTML is best, as it is the most convenient format for people to access. The DocBook tools produce HTML, so once you switch over it's easy to do the same. I'm not actually sure whether you *can* post attachments to this list, since it would be a bad thing to do (there are over 300 members). > > Two things stand out: > > > > - I really like the fact that you appear to be concentrating on the > > supplied graphical tools. > > Should be standard for a Fedora documentation. And, personally, I like > the concept of the Fedora admin tools, small and effective, not these > swiss-army-knife type of tools. ...YaST. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 01:12:20 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:42:20 +0530 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124648758.9214.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124648758.9214.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43092674.30005@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: >On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 02:16 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > >>Hi, >> >>attached a rough draft for a step-by-step guide to set up a samba >>server. It is based on some internal documentation that I wrote for my >>staff. >> >>Current status: >> >>part 1 - 5 are nearly ready (in German) but needs some polishing/ >>clarification before disseminating and, of course, I have to do a >>translation. >> >> > >A hint for 2.1 -- avoid system-config-packages, since it will often fail >for updated systems. Just include the yum instructions, since that >should always work. To echo what Stuart said, thank you, *THANK YOU* >for concentrating on GUI tools. > > > Well system-config-packages is expected to get its insides swapped out with a yum backend along the FC5 timeframe. So it might not be a bad thing to talk about anymore regards Rahul From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Mon Aug 22 01:22:27 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:22:27 +0200 Subject: Why are you lurking on the Documentation Project? (was Re: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1124584166.3196.202.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124160115.18963.126.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124226582.18963.199.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124534739.5203.50.camel@littlePiet> <1124544853.3196.108.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124565051.5203.89.camel@littlePiet> <1124584166.3196.202.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124673747.5186.48.camel@littlePiet> Am Sonntag, den 21.08.2005, 01:29 +0100 schrieb Stuart Ellis: > On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 21:10 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > In order to achieve a comprehensive and well structured "Fedora > > Documentation" I suppose some over all planning is helpful. And despite > > being community driven somebody has to make the initial step. I think > > the FDSCo is the only one who can this do. > > [...] > I guess that you are envisaging a single large document. Not necessarily. If you plan a series articles which aim at a common topic, you need an overall plan even more. But I suppose, the thread "doc ideas, dream big" opened by Karsten, may discuss this. So I will add some remarks over there. > > [...] > > OK, this is highly speculative and to some extend a matter of personal > > taste. But perhaps there is too much information about too many > > different topics on the initial page > > ( http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ ). > > Thanks - this was very helpful. The main page and the New Writers page > have now been restructured. I've seen that. Looks much clearer to my eyes, now. Peter From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Mon Aug 22 01:44:48 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:44:48 +0200 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <43092674.30005@redhat.com> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124648758.9214.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43092674.30005@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124675088.5186.50.camel@littlePiet> Am Montag, den 22.08.2005, 06:42 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > Well system-config-packages is expected to get its insides swapped out > with a yum backend along the FC5 timeframe. OK, I'll concentrate on yum and the CLI Peter From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 01:54:28 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:24:28 +0530 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124675088.5186.50.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124648758.9214.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43092674.30005@redhat.com> <1124675088.5186.50.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <43093054.1010605@redhat.com> Peter Boy wrote: >Am Montag, den 22.08.2005, 06:42 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > > >>Well system-config-packages is expected to get its insides swapped out >>with a yum backend along the FC5 timeframe. >> >> > >OK, I'll concentrate on yum and the CLI > > >Peter > > > Make sure you cross link http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ wherever appropriate. Great job btw, Stuart Ellis. I just had sometime to go through the document. The guide seems to be assuming that users are using the newer versions of yum which supports features like prompting for the GPG key. You might want to clarify that the guide assumes FC4. regards Rahul From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Mon Aug 22 02:04:46 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:04:46 +0200 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124413817.3173.52.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> <1124411729.916.43.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124413817.3173.52.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1124676286.5186.53.camel@littlePiet> Am Freitag, den 19.08.2005, 02:10 +0100 schrieb Stuart Ellis: > On Thu, 2005-08-18 at 17:35 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > This sparked an idea for a Fedora Guide to Useful Linux Documentation. > > This would have links to fora and TLDP that are applicable/useful to > > Fedora. > > That would be a useful thing to have. I wrote some material a while ago > that we could reuse to start this off: > > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/nextsteps-en/ (the Finding > Help section) Wouldn't it be a good idea to incorporate this into the FDP? What I've seen on the fly it's quite perfect and nearly ready to be published. Peter From apbrar at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 03:22:09 2005 From: apbrar at gmail.com (Amanpreet Singh Brar) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:52:09 +0530 Subject: schedule for translating documentation Message-ID: <430944E1.2050702@gmail.com> Karsten Wade wrote: >This is mainly for the release notes, but we can follow it for other >documentation for FC5. > >2 November - test1 documentation freeze >7 November - test1 release >7 December - test2 documentation freeze >12 December - test2 release >4 January - test3 documentation freeze >9 January - test3 release >1 February - FC5 documentation freeze (final) >13 February - FC5 release > >This based on the schedule found at: > >http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/schedule/ > >You'll notice that the docs freeze is two days after the devel freeze. > >This is really only one additional day for writing beyond devel freeze, >accounting for the dateline. This additional day gives us a chance to >take urgent changes to the release notes right up to devel freeze, and >have one more day to make changes. > >Most of the translation will be in test1. We plan to have rolling >content available throughout the writing cycle. Following that, we >don't expect the document to churn very much, perhaps 10% to 20% change >(change, additions) between tests. Expect the changes between test3 and >release to be very minimal. > >This schedule is subject to changes in the master schedule. > >What do you think? With your agreement, I'll share this with the docs >project as our schedule. > >BTW, documents that you may want to translate in addition to the release >notes, which are planned for FC5: > >* Installation Guide >* Desktop User Guide >* Managing Software with Yum > > > Hello, I m translating Fedora GUI (I have cvs account for GUI) How can I start Translation docuement for my Language? can u please provide some Ideas about this? thanks AP Brar Punjabi Translator >thx - Karsten > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 08:48:59 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:48:59 -0700 Subject: Trackers obsolete? In-Reply-To: <1124661026.9214.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124661026.9214.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124700540.5414.18.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 17:50 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Now that we have our own product and components for docs, it seems to me > that the "per-document" trackers, such as: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=ig-traqr > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=fdp-docguide-traqr > > ...have been rendered obsolete. I still like the idea of keeping the > tracker bugs for ideas and works-in-progress, although I suspect they > will be ignored in favor of the Wiki. (*sigh*) Comments? Grayland. Landscape unclear. I think tracker bugs came about as a way of showing a dependency relationship outside of the individual components. So, they work best for situations such as "blocker for FC5" or "docs ready for publishing". Those are keepers. There are other reasons to have a tracker that is for a single document. For example, you may want to have code related bugs be blocking, so that the resolution of those bug reports is tracked. In this second case, it's up to the author/editor if they need it. Seeing as how that describes you for both those bugs, I think you know best if they are needed. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 08:58:56 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:58:56 -0700 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124671175.9024.73.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124647434.2948.26.camel@Vigor10> <1124670455.5186.42.camel@littlePiet> <1124671175.9024.73.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1124701136.5414.25.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 01:39 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > Posting a link to HTML is best, as it is the most convenient format for > people to access. The DocBook tools produce HTML, so once you switch > over it's easy to do the same. In addition, when you have the HTML at a stage when you are ready to convert it to XML, we will help. There are a couple of useful html2db tools out there that can help start the conversion. I think HTML links are the best. It helps make it clear it is not a formal Fedora document yet. As it progresses, we'll convert it to XML, add a draft notice/caveat, create a component in bugzilla for tracking, get it into CVS, etc. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 09:29:20 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:29:20 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Peter Boy In-Reply-To: <1124576538.5203.168.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124576538.5203.168.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124702960.5414.30.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 00:22 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Following the format of the Fedora Documentation Project self-intro at > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SelfIntroduction > > > 1. Full legal name > Peter Boy Peter, welcome, and thank you for leaping into the discussions with both feet. You have some good ideas and valid points, and the fresh perspective is appreciated. I look forward to working with you. - Karsten, and no, I don't speak/write German, just Californian parents with a global sense of naming. :) -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Mon Aug 22 10:38:29 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:38:29 +0100 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124676286.5186.53.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4304FA1A.5040405@redhat.com> <1124410104.3173.38.camel@Vigor10> <1124411729.916.43.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124413817.3173.52.camel@Vigor10> <1124676286.5186.53.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124707109.2954.26.camel@Vigor10> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 04:04 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Am Freitag, den 19.08.2005, 02:10 +0100 schrieb Stuart Ellis: > > On Thu, 2005-08-18 at 17:35 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > This sparked an idea for a Fedora Guide to Useful Linux Documentation. > > > This would have links to fora and TLDP that are applicable/useful to > > > Fedora. > > > > That would be a useful thing to have. I wrote some material a while ago > > that we could reuse to start this off: > > > > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/nextsteps-en/ (the Finding > > Help section) > > Wouldn't it be a good idea to incorporate this into the FDP? What I've > seen on the fly it's quite perfect and nearly ready to be published. The Next Steps document was originally intended as a post-installation appendix to the main Installation Guide, and Section 4.5 and 4.6 are in the final Installation Guide, but the other sections (and the rest of the content of the document) aren't in an active document because there isn't yet an appropriate document to put them in. If somebody is looking for a small and easy project to get started with, converting "Finding Help" into an FDP document would be straight forward. I can either provide what's on the page as a plain-text file, or open a CVS module and add the DocBook source file. A direct link to the Finding Help section, for anyone interested: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/nextsteps-en/sn-finding-help.html -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 12:19:40 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:19:40 -0400 Subject: Emacs validation In-Reply-To: <1124638353.5285.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124632781.3417.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124638353.5285.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4309C2DC.4000103@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 09:59 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >>OK, gang, I'm kind of tired of the fact that my validation within Emacs >>has *never* worked correctly, so it makes doc writing/editing just a bit >>less enjoyable. When I do validation (C-c C-v), the validate command >>comes up as follows: >> >> nsgmls -wxml -s name-of-doc-en.xml >> >>When I run it, I get a *huge* number of errors such as this: >> >>= = = = = >>-*- mode: compilation; default-directory: "~/fedora/docs/jargon-buster/" >>-*- >>nsgmls -wxml -s jargon-buster-en.xml >>nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/docbookx.dtd:112:15:W: named character reference >>nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/docbookx.dtd:112:17:E: "X20AC" is not a function name >>nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/ent/iso-amsa.ent:8:17:W: named character reference >>= = = = = >> >>I can't believe this is what I should be seeing, since it happens even >>with documents that are perfectly fine as far as xmlto is concerned >>(i.e., "make" works fine). What am I missing that would make this a >>more joyful experience? > > > OK, answering my own question after some playing around. In Emacs, > change the setting "Sgml Xml Declaration" to "xml.dcl" instead of > "NONE," and everything works automagically. Why isn't this set by > default by psgml or something else? Can anyone suggest where I should > file this bug? > Hi Paul, I dunno if filing a bug against psgml would have any effect, as I think development has ceased (nxml-mode seems to be the new kid in town). However, should you want to file a bug or post something to the psgml list, you can find that info at the sourceforge project page: http://sourceforge.net/projects/psgml/ fwiw, I believe you can also set the (xml-mode) validate command itself within emacs to include the xml declaration. The path to xml.dcl can pretty much be inserted anywhere in the call to nsgmls. HTH Cheers, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 12:36:28 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:36:28 -0400 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124701136.5414.25.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124647434.2948.26.camel@Vigor10> <1124670455.5186.42.camel@littlePiet> <1124671175.9024.73.camel@Vigor10> <1124701136.5414.25.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124714188.3672.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 01:58 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 01:39 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > Posting a link to HTML is best, as it is the most convenient format for > > people to access. The DocBook tools produce HTML, so once you switch > > over it's easy to do the same. > > In addition, when you have the HTML at a stage when you are ready to > convert it to XML, we will help. There are a couple of useful html2db > tools out there that can help start the conversion. > > I think HTML links are the best. It helps make it clear it is not a > formal Fedora document yet. As it progresses, we'll convert it to XML, > add a draft notice/caveat, create a component in bugzilla for tracking, > get it into CVS, etc. Peter and all, If you're using Fedora Core 4, and you have the openoffice.org-javafilter package installed, you will find that you can write the body of your document with OpenOffice.org Writer, and do a conversion after you're finished. Since almost everyone on this list is running OpenOffice.org, that should make early collaboration very easy, just by emailing drafts back and forth. Once you're happy with a draft and it's ready for CVS, you can use the OO.o DocBook XML filters to save the document. (I wouldn't convert it until you're really ready; the filters for *importing* XML to OO.o's OpenDocument format are really not that good yet.) First, make sure you have the openoffice.org-javafilter package installed: # yum install openoffice.org-javafilter Now, write/import/edit your document in OO.o. BIG TIP: Use the Stylist to select styles for your headings. When you select Heading 1, you open a first-level section. After you type the heading title, just hit Enter, and the style changes automatically to make the following paragraphs part of that DocBook section (). If you select Heading 2, and type a title, the following paragraphs are part of that DocBook second-level section (). Although FDP uses
and not , that's very easy to fix later. The main point of doing this is that it makes writing easier for you, and should make the DocBook conversion relatively easy for other contributors when it's time to add the doc to CVS. When you're finished, select File -> Save As... and choose the "File Type" option. Select DocBook from the list, and give a name to your file. If you have "Automatic file extension" selected, OO.o adds the ".xml" extension to the file name. This in itself is a good reason to switch to FC4 if you haven't done so already! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 12:38:38 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:38:38 -0400 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <43093054.1010605@redhat.com> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124648758.9214.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43092674.30005@redhat.com> <1124675088.5186.50.camel@littlePiet> <43093054.1010605@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124714318.3672.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 07:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Peter Boy wrote: > >>Well system-config-packages is expected to get its insides swapped out > >>with a yum backend along the FC5 timeframe. > > > >OK, I'll concentrate on yum and the CLI > > > Make sure you cross link http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ wherever > appropriate. Great job btw, Stuart Ellis. I just had sometime to go > through the document. The guide seems to be assuming that users are > using the newer versions of yum which supports features like prompting > for the GPG key. You might want to clarify that the guide assumes FC4. Rahul, refer to the Introduction. Stuart points this out in the admonition in section 1.3. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 12:40:44 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:40:44 -0400 Subject: Emacs validation In-Reply-To: <4309C2DC.4000103@redhat.com> References: <1124632781.3417.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124638353.5285.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4309C2DC.4000103@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124714444.3672.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 08:19 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 09:59 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > >>OK, gang, I'm kind of tired of the fact that my validation within Emacs > >>has *never* worked correctly, so it makes doc writing/editing just a bit > >>less enjoyable. When I do validation (C-c C-v), the validate command > >>comes up as follows: > >> > >> nsgmls -wxml -s name-of-doc-en.xml > >> > >>When I run it, I get a *huge* number of errors such as this: > >> > >>= = = = = > >>-*- mode: compilation; default-directory: "~/fedora/docs/jargon-buster/" > >>-*- > >>nsgmls -wxml -s jargon-buster-en.xml > >>nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/docbookx.dtd:112:15:W: named character reference > >>nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/docbookx.dtd:112:17:E: "X20AC" is not a function name > >>nsgmls:http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.2/ent/iso-amsa.ent:8:17:W: named character reference > >>= = = = = > >> > >>I can't believe this is what I should be seeing, since it happens even > >>with documents that are perfectly fine as far as xmlto is concerned > >>(i.e., "make" works fine). What am I missing that would make this a > >>more joyful experience? > > > > > > OK, answering my own question after some playing around. In Emacs, > > change the setting "Sgml Xml Declaration" to "xml.dcl" instead of > > "NONE," and everything works automagically. Why isn't this set by > > default by psgml or something else? Can anyone suggest where I should > > file this bug? > > > Hi Paul, > > I dunno if filing a bug against psgml would have any effect, as I think > development has ceased (nxml-mode seems to be the new kid in town). > However, should you want to file a bug or post something to the psgml > list, you can find that info at the sourceforge project page: > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/psgml/ > > fwiw, I believe you can also set the (xml-mode) validate command itself > within emacs to include the xml declaration. The path to xml.dcl can > pretty much be inserted anywhere in the call to nsgmls. When I tried to do this in the Sgml Xml Validate Command setting, Emacs would then refuse to grab the file name I was validating, like the "%s" was being ignored. In the interest of full disclosure, I am using Jens Petersen's Emacs CVS testing packages because they are GTK2 enabled and much easier on the eyes. Not sure whether that has some effect. In any case, at least validation is working now, which is super. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 12:46:21 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:16:21 +0530 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124714318.3672.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124648758.9214.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43092674.30005@redhat.com> <1124675088.5186.50.camel@littlePiet> <43093054.1010605@redhat.com> <1124714318.3672.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4309C91D.8070909@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: >On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 07:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Peter Boy wrote: >> >> >>>>Well system-config-packages is expected to get its insides swapped out >>>>with a yum backend along the FC5 timeframe. >>>> >>>> >>>OK, I'll concentrate on yum and the CLI >>> >>> >>> >>Make sure you cross link http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ wherever >>appropriate. Great job btw, Stuart Ellis. I just had sometime to go >>through the document. The guide seems to be assuming that users are >>using the newer versions of yum which supports features like prompting >>for the GPG key. You might want to clarify that the guide assumes FC4. >> >> > >Rahul, refer to the Introduction. Stuart points this out in the >admonition in section 1.3. > > > Ya. /me reminds myself to read admonitions too regards Rahul From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Mon Aug 22 12:52:46 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:52:46 +0200 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124714188.3672.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124647434.2948.26.camel@Vigor10> <1124670455.5186.42.camel@littlePiet> <1124671175.9024.73.camel@Vigor10> <1124701136.5414.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124714188.3672.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124715166.5186.64.camel@littlePiet> Am Montag, den 22.08.2005, 08:36 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > If you're using Fedora Core 4, and you have the > openoffice.org-javafilter package installed, you will find that you can > write the body of your document with OpenOffice.org Writer, and do a > conversion after you're finished. Good news. I just upgraded one of my workstations to FC4. It will make things much easier, at least for me (I must admit I never used emacs). > BIG TIP: Use the Stylist > to select styles for your headings. When you select Heading 1, you open > a first-level section. After you type the heading title, just hit > Enter, and the style changes automatically to make the following > paragraphs part of that DocBook section (). If you select > Heading 2, and type a title, the following paragraphs are part of that > DocBook second-level section (). Although FDP uses
and > not , that's very easy to fix later. Even better. I use OO for all my scientific writing (and of course the indirect formatting). May be we can develop a "post-conversion" tool to automate the fixing and eventually an OO document template for the FDP. Peter From stuart at elsn.org Mon Aug 22 12:58:17 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:58:17 +0100 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124714188.3672.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124647434.2948.26.camel@Vigor10> <1124670455.5186.42.camel@littlePiet> <1124671175.9024.73.camel@Vigor10> <1124701136.5414.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124714188.3672.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124715497.2954.30.camel@Vigor10> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 08:36 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 01:58 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 01:39 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > > > Posting a link to HTML is best, as it is the most convenient format for > > > people to access. The DocBook tools produce HTML, so once you switch > > > over it's easy to do the same. > > > > In addition, when you have the HTML at a stage when you are ready to > > convert it to XML, we will help. There are a couple of useful html2db > > tools out there that can help start the conversion. > > > > I think HTML links are the best. It helps make it clear it is not a > > formal Fedora document yet. As it progresses, we'll convert it to XML, > > add a draft notice/caveat, create a component in bugzilla for tracking, > > get it into CVS, etc. > > Peter and all, > > If you're using Fedora Core 4, and you have the > openoffice.org-javafilter package installed, you will find that you can > write the body of your document with OpenOffice.org Writer, and do a > conversion after you're finished. Since almost everyone on this list is > running OpenOffice.org, that should make early collaboration very easy, > just by emailing drafts back and forth. Once you're happy with a draft > and it's ready for CVS, you can use the OO.o DocBook XML filters to save > the document. (I wouldn't convert it until you're really ready; the > filters for *importing* XML to OO.o's OpenDocument format are really not > that good yet.) > > First, make sure you have the openoffice.org-javafilter package > installed: > > # yum install openoffice.org-javafilter > > Now, write/import/edit your document in OO.o. BIG TIP: Use the Stylist > to select styles for your headings. When you select Heading 1, you open > a first-level section. After you type the heading title, just hit > Enter, and the style changes automatically to make the following > paragraphs part of that DocBook section (). If you select > Heading 2, and type a title, the following paragraphs are part of that > DocBook second-level section (). Although FDP uses
and > not , that's very easy to fix later. > > The main point of doing this is that it makes writing easier for you, > and should make the DocBook conversion relatively easy for other > contributors when it's time to add the doc to CVS. > > When you're finished, select File -> Save As... and choose the "File > Type" option. Select DocBook from the list, and give a name to your > file. If you have "Automatic file extension" selected, OO.o adds the > ".xml" extension to the file name. Permission to Wiki this very useful information for potential contributors ? -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 13:20:03 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:20:03 -0400 Subject: proposal: Setting up a samba server on Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1124715497.2954.30.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124647434.2948.26.camel@Vigor10> <1124670455.5186.42.camel@littlePiet> <1124671175.9024.73.camel@Vigor10> <1124701136.5414.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124714188.3672.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124715497.2954.30.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1124716803.3672.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 13:58 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 08:36 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 01:58 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 01:39 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > > > > > Posting a link to HTML is best, as it is the most convenient format for > > > > people to access. The DocBook tools produce HTML, so once you switch > > > > over it's easy to do the same. > > > > > > In addition, when you have the HTML at a stage when you are ready to > > > convert it to XML, we will help. There are a couple of useful html2db > > > tools out there that can help start the conversion. > > > > > > I think HTML links are the best. It helps make it clear it is not a > > > formal Fedora document yet. As it progresses, we'll convert it to XML, > > > add a draft notice/caveat, create a component in bugzilla for tracking, > > > get it into CVS, etc. > > > > Peter and all, > > > > If you're using Fedora Core 4, and you have the > > openoffice.org-javafilter package installed, you will find that you can > > write the body of your document with OpenOffice.org Writer, and do a > > conversion after you're finished. Since almost everyone on this list is > > running OpenOffice.org, that should make early collaboration very easy, > > just by emailing drafts back and forth. Once you're happy with a draft > > and it's ready for CVS, you can use the OO.o DocBook XML filters to save > > the document. (I wouldn't convert it until you're really ready; the > > filters for *importing* XML to OO.o's OpenDocument format are really not > > that good yet.) > > > > First, make sure you have the openoffice.org-javafilter package > > installed: > > > > # yum install openoffice.org-javafilter > > > > Now, write/import/edit your document in OO.o. BIG TIP: Use the Stylist > > to select styles for your headings. When you select Heading 1, you open > > a first-level section. After you type the heading title, just hit > > Enter, and the style changes automatically to make the following > > paragraphs part of that DocBook section (). If you select > > Heading 2, and type a title, the following paragraphs are part of that > > DocBook second-level section (). Although FDP uses
and > > not , that's very easy to fix later. > > > > The main point of doing this is that it makes writing easier for you, > > and should make the DocBook conversion relatively easy for other > > contributors when it's time to add the doc to CVS. > > > > When you're finished, select File -> Save As... and choose the "File > > Type" option. Select DocBook from the list, and give a name to your > > file. If you have "Automatic file extension" selected, OO.o adds the > > ".xml" extension to the file name. > > Permission to Wiki this very useful information for potential > contributors ? Heck yeah! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Mon Aug 22 13:33:00 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:33:00 +0200 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124717580.5186.78.camel@littlePiet> Hi, sorry, the following is much too long. If you don't like long texts here, please skip. Am Donnerstag, den 18.08.2005, 12:58 -0700 schrieb Karsten Wade: > One thing we lack is a list of what to write for new authors. I'd like > to fix that. Full ack! As I mentioned in the weekend's thread "Why you are lurking", I suppose it would be helpful to provide some decent structure for orientation in the documentation process, that is, to develop some sort of long term goals what parts should make up the Fedora Documentation if it would be ready. One way to do it is to conceptualize an open but systematic framework of topics (a kind of table of contents for a series of publications). Currently the pieces of documentation make a somehow eclectic and unstructured impression (from the perspective of a naive end user, who doesn't know about all the details and difficulties, without wanting to hurt anybody of the participants here!). It makes at the first moment an impression of rather a collection by chance as a (at least potential) systematic source of orientation. On one hand this makes it hard for the end user to find relevant information and to put a value on it, on the other hand it is a steep curve for a potential contributor. He/she has to develop a complete idea about what to contribute and has no idea at the beginning weather it is worth to consider a contribution because there is no hint, weather it may fit into the picture. Just another problem is, that end user documentation and internal project documentation are mixed on the pages (perhaps with a slight domination of the internal documentation, which is good for the project, but may be confusing for the uninitiated). The current state and working strategy is, I suppose, a very efficient way to start a project and to produce some results and output quite quickly (in order to have something on stage). I suppose the project has reached a stage where some meta planning might be possible and helpful. Just another point: If you know what are you looking for, you can actively try to find authors by suggesting specific themes. Or you may look for existing documentation (there is a lot of it existing around) and ask their authors to contribute it to the FDP. Just another idea: The project may consider to adopt the very efficient idea of release note beats to the documentation itself. There could be 2 or 3 different types of contributions: guide/tutorial as known yet, the FAQ type and something like a "technical note", very short and for a limited scope, but which is seen as usefull in the context of the whole documentation. OK, to critize a work is quite easy and doesn't necessarly contribute to progress. To produce something by oneself which can be critized by others is another party. I've gathered the existing pieces of documentation, mixed it with a little bit of phantasy and came up with a framework, which might serve as a very rough initial proposal for such a long term goal and may work as a way to structure the wiki pages, too. The + denotes a broader section, - a singe tutorial/guide, # additional comments. I hope it gives some perceivable structure what is needed and is is open enough for every idea somebody may contribute. End User Documentation ---------------------- + Short Overview over the documentation (one page) # Information what is the goal # Information about the current status # Information what pieces can be found # and why they can be found + Release Notes # (published) # new development for FC5 + Installation Guide # (published) + Start Using Fedora - Stuarts text nextsteps # needs perhaps some minor rework - Finding help # where to find documentation # man pages / info system # gnome help system quite special # links to general informations (LDP project, Howto's, ...) # generate a quick link an desktop or panel - where to find software # Fedora tracker # Fedora extras # third party repositories # some caveats (interoperability) - Guide up2date # finished but deprecated - Guide yum for update / install # published - How to handle and reporting bugs # (some material existing) - Fedora Guide to Useful Linux Documentation # (new) - Command line survival guide # ( new ) + Using Fedora as a Desktop System - Guide to Open Office in Fedora # special configuration by Fedora # access evolution address book # file dialogs - Guide to Firefox # Fedoras preconfiguration # how to customize # where are the data stored # managing downloads # managing plugins # how to handle third party plugins - Customizing the Fedora Desktop # launching often used programs # starters on the desktop # rearranging menues # customizing nautilus (broser mode) # Adding stuff to the panel # differences / enhancments to standard Gnome desktop - Keeping up2date # (finished CVS) - Hotplug Tutorial # (finished / CVS) - Managing / Using wireless cards # howto compile drivers not included in fedora # list of available drivers + Using Server procecess # each guide should concentrate on the Fedora specific # preconfiguration, Fedora delivered tools, hints how # to translate the server specific general documentation # into Fedora specific variants, links to further readings - Guide to using and configuring HTTP / TOMCAT # published as HTTP / SELinux - Guide using / configuring postgres - Guide using / configuring mysql - Guide using / configuring samba - Guide using / configuring Internet Gateway - Guide using / configuring Proxy Server # finished / CVS - Guide using / configuring Mail Server # sendmail as preconfigured standard # postfix as an alternative - Guide to managing services # start during boot # how to add services (compiled from tar balls) - Alternatives - Installing / configurint Exim + Coping with recent technologies in Fedora / technology changes - Guide udev # (published) - Guide SELinux # (published as FAQ) - Guide using zen - Guide Using Java + Developing with / for Fedora - General Developer Guide # published, but unfortunately not part of the FDP? - Packagers Handbook # by Extra Project # perhaps some information independent of extras usefule ("home made / users internal packages") - Guide using / configuring Eclipse - Developing with python # importance: Fedoras way for scripts an system management - Alternatives / Extras - Guide using / configuring netbeans + Administrators Guide to Fedora (Hell) # may be to be diffentiated in daily admin (casual user) and special admin tasks (experienced admins) - overall guide to Fedora's internal infrastructure # etc/sysconfig, what is where and why - Kernel Compilation Tutorial # (something existing) - sudo guide # (finished / CVS) - Securing file systems # (existing / CVS) - System Hardening # (existing / CVS) - Samba Ldap Tutorial # (CVS) - Clan Antivirus Tutorial # (existing ) - Managing Menues # perhaps not necessagy with FC5 menue editor? # manage different menues for different users # how menu system works - how to add printers + Special purpose configurations - Stateless Linux # (published) - pxe boot environement # using pxe to manage windows desktops - setting up a mirror # in CVS - Installing a Simple Gateway Server # (existing?) - Using Fedora as a home network Server # putting various pieces of other documentation parts to a specific purpose - Using Fedora as a small business workgroup Server # putting various pieces of other documentation parts to a specific purpose # warning: do not use it for enterprise level situation + Useful misc Information - Jargon Buster # (published) Fedora Documentation Project internal Documentation ------------------------------------------ (preferrable apart from the End User documentation as a separate page) + FDP Quick Start Guide (deprecated) + FDP Documentation Guide # published + Release Notes Beat Writer # (something existing) + FDP Example Tutorial # (finished / CVS) + DocBook / Emacs Quickstart # (finished / CVS) + FDP Style Guide # (finshed / CVS) + Translation Guide # May be unrelated to the FDP, or may be useful for the FDP, too? Thanks for your patience to read up to this point. Peter From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 15:09:47 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:09:47 -0400 Subject: Web sidebar fix Message-ID: <1124723387.6900.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> The following bug may not have been seen by all the FDP people with the ability to fix it -- I didn't take time to note who ended up on the BZ email list: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=166402 This will allow the right-side link list on fedora.redhat.com to show the range of documentation we've produced, instead of a big void like it shows now. :-) Tested fine on my local copy, just needs someone with appropriate access (Tammy or Karsten...?) to grab and apply the patch. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Mon Aug 22 17:38:42 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:38:42 +0100 Subject: OpenOffice DocBook (Was: Setting up a samba server) In-Reply-To: <1124716803.3672.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124583408.5203.178.camel@littlePiet> <1124647434.2948.26.camel@Vigor10> <1124670455.5186.42.camel@littlePiet> <1124671175.9024.73.camel@Vigor10> <1124701136.5414.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124714188.3672.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124715497.2954.30.camel@Vigor10> <1124716803.3672.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124732322.6250.5.camel@Vigor10> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 09:20 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > > > Peter and all, > > > > > > If you're using Fedora Core 4, and you have the > > > openoffice.org-javafilter package installed, you will find that you can > > > write the body of your document with OpenOffice.org Writer, and do a > > > conversion after you're finished. Since almost everyone on this list is > > > running OpenOffice.org, that should make early collaboration very easy, > > > just by emailing drafts back and forth. > > Permission to Wiki this very useful information for potential > > contributors ? > > Heck yeah! > This is now converted: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/OOoDocBook An explanation of submitting draft documents (including formatting) is here: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WritingDraftDocs The NewWriters page now has a link to the latter. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Mon Aug 22 21:57:18 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:57:18 +0100 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124717580.5186.78.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124717580.5186.78.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124747838.6250.57.camel@Vigor10> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 15:33 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 18.08.2005, 12:58 -0700 schrieb Karsten Wade: > > One thing we lack is a list of what to write for new authors. I'd like > > to fix that. > > Full ack! > > As I mentioned in the weekend's thread "Why you are lurking", I suppose > it would be helpful to provide some decent structure for orientation in > the documentation process, that is, to develop some sort of long term > goals what parts should make up the Fedora Documentation if it would be > ready. One way to do it is to conceptualize an open but systematic > framework of topics (a kind of table of contents for a series of > publications). There's a lot of very good ideas and arguments here. Below is my attempt to summarize them so that hopefully other people will come in and start discussing the specifics in more detail. I haven't added any comments on this mail. - List user documentation on a separate page from process documentation, since only contributors and potential contributors care about process documentation. - Possibly have two classes of documentation: * Complete documents and tutorials * Short FAQ items or technical notes that people can write as part of a framework (in the same way that the Release Notes are made up of many individual self-contained notes) - Organize documents into categories. Some documents may appear under more than one heading. - For each category, have a general set of guidelines that applies to relevant documents to assist contributors (e.g. documents on server software should show the use of Fedora management tools where possible). - For each category, have a list of suggested topics that contributors could address (e.g. "Developing with Fedora" has the suggested topics Packaging, Python, Java). - A provisional list of categories (I've amended the titles slightly from the original for clarity): * Release Notes * Installation Guide * Start Using Fedora * Using the Desktop * Using Fedora as a Server * Emerging Technologies * Software Development with Fedora * System Administration * Network Configurations (Home network, network with Stateless Linux etc.) * Miscellaneous (Jargon Buster) * FDP Process Documentation Some of these categories are single, but large "Guides". -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ivazquez at ivazquez.net Tue Aug 23 04:30:00 2005 From: ivazquez at ivazquez.net (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:30:00 -0400 Subject: Proposal: Building Packages under Fedora Message-ID: <1124771400.3414.58.camel@ignacio.lan> Attached is an outline for a guide to building packages under Fedora, in notecase format (available in Fedora Extras). -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams http://fedora.ivazquez.net/ gpg --keyserver hkp://subkeys.pgp.net --recv-key 38028b72 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: building-rpms.ncd Type: application/notecase-plain Size: 2340 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Tue Aug 23 10:08:48 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:38:48 +0530 Subject: how to install Oracle 9i on Fedora Core 3 or greater. Message-ID: <430AF5B0.7040301@hclcomnet.co.in> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi , Pl find Oracle 9i on Fedora Core 3 or greater How to at Linux Documentation project http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Oracle-9i-Fedora-3-Install-HOWTO/ I hope people might find it useful as its general perception that Oracle runs only certified RH products like RHEL,RAS etc initially i had submitted this article on Redhat doc list but I really got tired with my bad experience with RH bureaucratic process and double standards (stuff like fedora is not supposed to Run in enterprise and setup , use RHEL , we don t document proprietary stuff for fedora but its ok for RHEL Blah blah) . Over all i find people at Linux Documentation project much friendlier and open and easier to work with and also much larger scope I guess its better to submit documentation directly to Linux Documentation Project and be as vendor neutral specific as possible Regards , Gaurav - -- "Innovation is not absolutely necessary, but then neither is survival." - -- Andrew Papageorge -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDCvWsVAO9KHA2KWcRArZZAJ9ubkckt9swmyXrW3ypuJb6UCzaCwCfaFYI 3KEHM/BWbk9eHqa6qfcavE4= =SutW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- DISCLAIMER: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail contains confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure, use or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gauravp.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 299 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 11:36:10 2005 From: sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:06:10 +0530 Subject: how to install Oracle 9i on Fedora Core 3 or greater. In-Reply-To: <430AF5B0.7040301@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <430AF5B0.7040301@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <430B0A2A.4060707@gmail.com> gaurav wrote: > I hope people might find it useful as its general perception that > Oracle runs only certified RH products like RHEL,RAS etc I think perhaps you would like to add caveat to the statement made above. Oracle *supports* installations on certified Operating System stack. In an ideal world, Oracle is dependant upon kernel and glibc version. www.puschitz.com is one site where RHEL as well as FC installations are covered. > initially i had submitted this article on Redhat doc list but I really > got tired with my bad experience with RH bureaucratic process and > double standards (stuff like fedora is not supposed to Run in > enterprise and setup , use RHEL , we don t document proprietary stuff > for fedora but its ok for RHEL Blah blah) . Can you point to some public mailing list thread on this ? Regards Sankarshan -- You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw From gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in Tue Aug 23 12:24:52 2005 From: gauravp at hclcomnet.co.in (gaurav) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:54:52 +0530 Subject: how to install Oracle 9i on Fedora Core 3 or greater. In-Reply-To: <430B0A2A.4060707@gmail.com> References: <430AF5B0.7040301@hclcomnet.co.in> <430B0A2A.4060707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <430B1594.5010604@hclcomnet.co.in> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote: >gaurav wrote: > >>I hope people might find it useful as its general perception that >>Oracle runs only certified RH products like RHEL,RAS etc > > >I think perhaps you would like to add caveat to the statement made >above. Oracle *supports* installations on certified Operating System stack. > >In an ideal world, Oracle is dependant upon kernel and glibc version. >www.puschitz.com is one site where RHEL as well as FC installations are >covered. not exactly ,www.puschitz.com does not cover Oracle 9i installation fc3 , fc4 and other derived products , he recently updated RHAS 4 tutorial general perception example http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd at lists.linux-delhi.org/msg10882.html http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd at lists.linux-delhi.org/msg10883.html > >>initially i had submitted this article on Redhat doc list but I really >>got tired with my bad experience with RH bureaucratic process and >>double standards (stuff like fedora is not supposed to Run in >>enterprise and setup , use RHEL , we don t document proprietary stuff >>for fedora but its ok for RHEL Blah blah) . > > >Can you point to some public mailing list thread on this ? > read this thread https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-April/msg00242.html https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-April/msg00243.html https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-April/msg00249.html >Regards >Sankarshan > > > - -- "Innovation is not absolutely necessary, but then neither is survival." - -- Andrew Papageorge -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDCxWSVAO9KHA2KWcRAozsAJsEh7+C25H8jTm9++lTp5WEG3u7rgCfW8Dd VIuB53Lxi1HrExRHzrLs2Zk= =Q0/A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- DISCLAIMER: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail contains confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure, use or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gauravp.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 299 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 12:57:47 2005 From: sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:27:47 +0530 Subject: how to install Oracle 9i on Fedora Core 3 or greater. In-Reply-To: <430B1594.5010604@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <430AF5B0.7040301@hclcomnet.co.in> <430B0A2A.4060707@gmail.com> <430B1594.5010604@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <430B1D4B.4030901@gmail.com> gaurav wrote: > general perception example > > http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd at lists.linux-delhi.org/msg10882.html > http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd at lists.linux-delhi.org/msg10883.html Are you referring to Sandip's mail or Nishi's ? They seem to converge since the idea is to put across the fact - to obtain support from a principal vendor for a deployment a supported (and daresay certified OS) is required. Nothing however stops anyone from using FC or any other OS with the general base similarity of glibc version or kernel as required. Which translates into the fact that you can go ahead with a majority of the distributions currently in vogue with 2.6.x kernel etc. The moot point is how the end user views support. >>>>initially i had submitted this article on Redhat doc list but I really >>>>got tired with my bad experience with RH bureaucratic process and >>>>double standards (stuff like fedora is not supposed to Run in >>>>enterprise and setup , use RHEL , we don t document proprietary stuff >>>>for fedora but its ok for RHEL Blah blah) . >>> >>> >>>Can you point to some public mailing list thread on this ? >>> > read this thread > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-April/msg00242.html > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-April/msg00243.html > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-April/msg00249.html Ahh... I see that you have again missed Rahul's point. I would rather not start a troll over here. The point is that your document is well done (and released under a nice license). Which however does not give you the license for conceptually wrong Red Hat bashing. On a side note, is there a way for you to stop this disclaimer when you post to mailing list(s) since it will be distributed anyways as well as archived. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail contains confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure, use or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards Sankarshan -- You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 13:22:50 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:52:50 +0530 Subject: how to install Oracle 9i on Fedora Core 3 or greater. In-Reply-To: <430AF5B0.7040301@hclcomnet.co.in> References: <430AF5B0.7040301@hclcomnet.co.in> Message-ID: <430B232A.6020203@redhat.com> gaurav wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi , > Pl find Oracle 9i on Fedora Core 3 or greater How to at Linux > Documentation project > http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Oracle-9i-Fedora-3-Install-HOWTO/ > > > I hope people might find it useful as its general perception that > Oracle runs only certified RH products like RHEL,RAS etc I noticed that. Congrats. > Over all i find people at Linux Documentation project much friendlier > and open and easier to work with and also much larger scope > I guess its better to submit documentation directly to Linux > Documentation Project and be as vendor neutral specific as possible Right. Fedora documentation just like the whole of Fedora is exclusively open source. While reviewing LDP documents I actively encourage them to keep it distribution neutral as much as reasonably possible. Your HOWTO seem well suited for sites like fedoranews.org. regards Rahul From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Tue Aug 23 14:48:35 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:48:35 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Building Packages under Fedora In-Reply-To: <1124771400.3414.58.camel@ignacio.lan> References: <1124771400.3414.58.camel@ignacio.lan> Message-ID: <20050823094835.666d0a22.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams , spake thus: > Attached is an outline for a guide to building packages under Fedora, in > notecase format (available in Fedora Extras). Thank you for participating in the Docs project. I would rather your outline be an ordinary text file, HTML, OpenOffice, or PDF file and be readible using anything from the basic Fedora distribution. Nothing wrong with the Extras tools, but requiring folks to download a non-standard package to read the outline seems to be a awkward start. Anyone else have a comment? Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 14:52:05 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:22:05 +0530 Subject: Proposal: Building Packages under Fedora In-Reply-To: <20050823094835.666d0a22.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1124771400.3414.58.camel@ignacio.lan> <20050823094835.666d0a22.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <430B3815.6070805@redhat.com> Tommy Reynolds wrote: >Uttered Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams , spake thus: > > > >>Attached is an outline for a guide to building packages under Fedora, in >>notecase format (available in Fedora Extras). >> >> > >Thank you for participating in the Docs project. I would rather your >outline be an ordinary text file, HTML, OpenOffice, or PDF file and >be readible using anything from the basic Fedora distribution. >Nothing wrong with the Extras tools, but requiring folks to download >a non-standard package to read the outline seems to be a awkward start. > > Non-standard or not, it helps to provide the outline in a more easily accessible way. I am pretty sure more people would read it if it was in html or plain text format regards Rahul From ivazquez at ivazquez.net Tue Aug 23 15:23:25 2005 From: ivazquez at ivazquez.net (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:23:25 -0400 Subject: Proposal: Building Packages under Fedora In-Reply-To: <20050823094835.666d0a22.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1124771400.3414.58.camel@ignacio.lan> <20050823094835.666d0a22.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1124810605.3414.61.camel@ignacio.lan> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 09:48 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams , spake thus: > > > Attached is an outline for a guide to building packages under Fedora, in > > notecase format (available in Fedora Extras). > > Thank you for participating in the Docs project. I would rather your > outline be an ordinary text file, HTML, OpenOffice, or PDF file and > be readible using anything from the basic Fedora distribution. > Nothing wrong with the Extras tools, but requiring folks to download > a non-standard package to read the outline seems to be a awkward start. Okay, I went ahead and removed the NoteCase header and renamed the extension, and ran it through HTML tidy for good measure. -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams http://fedora.ivazquez.net/ gpg --keyserver hkp://subkeys.pgp.net --recv-key 38028b72 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 16:32:23 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:02:23 +0530 Subject: Proposal: Building Packages under Fedora In-Reply-To: <1124810605.3414.61.camel@ignacio.lan> References: <1124771400.3414.58.camel@ignacio.lan> <20050823094835.666d0a22.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124810605.3414.61.camel@ignacio.lan> Message-ID: <430B4F97.5050303@redhat.com> Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote: >On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 09:48 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > >>Uttered Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams , spake thus: >> >> >> >>>Attached is an outline for a guide to building packages under Fedora, in >>>notecase format (available in Fedora Extras). >>> >>> >>Thank you for participating in the Docs project. I would rather your >>outline be an ordinary text file, HTML, OpenOffice, or PDF file and >>be readible using anything from the basic Fedora distribution. >>Nothing wrong with the Extras tools, but requiring folks to download >>a non-standard package to read the outline seems to be a awkward start. >> >> > >Okay, I went ahead and removed the NoteCase header and renamed the >extension, and ran it through HTML tidy for good measure. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Changelog > >2005.08.22: 0.0: Initial proposal (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) > > > > Introduction > >RPM (RPM Package Manager) is at the heart of Fedora Core. It's responsible for installing new software, as well as tracking files so that the same software can be uninstalled with a minimum of fuss. But RPM on its own doesn't actually do anything. It's up to the packager to specify how a package is built, as well as explaining what sort of files the package contains, and what other packages it relies upon for proper operation. > > > > Structure of a package > >Header >This contains things such as the name, version, release, epoch, and architecture the package was built for, as well as what this package requires from other packages and what it provides to other packages. > >Files >This contains all files, directories, symlinks, etc. contained in the package, as well as the size, permissions, ownership, and SELinux file context. > >Scripts >This contains the scripts to be done on package install and uninstall, as well as the script done during a RPM verify. > > > > Modifying an existing package > >(go through the various reasons why one would want to modify an existing package) > > > > Case Study: PHP > >(modify the PHP package for adding ) > > What kind of capabality are you documenting here?. can you clarify that > > Creating a new package > >(reiterate RPM's file tracking capabilities vs. tarballs) > > > > Case Study: (TBD) > >(go through building a new package for (TBD)) > > > > Appendix: mock: Chroot Buildtool > >(description of what a chroot is) >(description of mock's command-line arguments) >(description of mock's config file structure) > > > > Appendix: plague: Distributed Buildsystem > >(description of what "distributed" means, as well as plague's cross-platform capabilities) >(description of how to configure plague-builder and -server) >(description of how to use plague-client) > > Rest of the guide looks good to get started with and better documentation about building packages and on plague is something thats very valuable. regards Rahul From admin at buddhalinux.com Tue Aug 23 16:58:26 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:58:26 -0500 Subject: Fedora DTD? Message-ID: <200508231158.43894.admin@buddhalinux.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello all, I have been playing with this idea and wanted to present it to the community with a request for comment: With the increase in independence of Fedora from it's parent entity Redhat, I think there should be some formal declarations. These simple declarations are all in the realm of XML. This submission should/may provide a central document modeling scheme with respect to all documentation written prior to and thereafter. Projected doctype declaration: I have quickly built up a DTD Driver for the Docbook 4.2 release. This driver contains declarations for Fedora Core specific documentation. Development location: http://www.buddhalinux.com/xml/docbook/custom/fedoradtd/0.1.0/schema/dtd/fedorax.dtd There are higher-level advantages to such approach: - Central repository for all elements to be utilized and/or deprecated. No more requesting help about an element. - Element consistency. If an element is available, when you build your documentation instance against this DTD; it will proceed without error. If you attempt to build a document instance with an invalid element that is not available in the Document Model, you will be unable to build successfully. - - Entity validation. Any entity can be added, altered, and removed from the Document Model with minimal intrusion to the author(s). - - Formal Definition of the FDP and its namespace. The FDP can be formally declared on all documentation. FDP document elements can then be included with other namespace elements without error. - - Architecture content. Declaration can be made for architecture specific content which can then be portrayed to the end-user via stylesheets. - - Language declarations. Language translations can be included inline in sources by translators. - - Fedora specific entities inclusion. Most of all this document negates any of the inconsistencies found in the FDP documentation site. The site doesn't really provide guidance or recommendations for the markup of the documentation. With this DTD. there is no question as to what can and can't be utilized --- and in which way. I know that as a new author there were(still is) alot of ambiguities and problems with constructing documentation according to the editors and/or process. [Paul can vouch for this one!] ;) Hopefully this may help the other newbie authors out there who want to help as well; but are hitting the same walls as I once did/am doing. Thanks, Thomas Jones -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDC1W5oR5cE1e/kEIRApk2AJ0dbexvSIBJxTfjvCz0+Wd7tt1ikwCeMQcK dgL8ew9T6VEApuUqYSBImeo= =/Vn3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 21:56:11 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:56:11 -0400 Subject: Docs packaging Message-ID: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> I want to take a stab at packaging at least a few of the biggie Fedora docs for FC5. Some of these thoughts below: * Since docs are not absolutely necessary to run a system, Extras seems like the right place to me. Putting Fedora on a diet was discussed endlessly before and after FC4, so I'm not sure we can make a great case for getting docs into Core. Nor should we really bother -- Extras is not a second-class citizen or a myth, it's a living, breathing, vital repository where we can be proud to have our documentation. Plus, putting it in Extras means it can stay fresh, which is absolutely important to this project. (I have Extras membership, as do some of our other contributors, and can easily find someone to review the package for inclusion. In fact, any of you could do it, and probably should, to speed the process up.) * Packages will consist of HTML. The XML will be in the .src.rpm as expected. Building to be done via the buildsys/plague per normal routine, unless someone has a better idea that doesn't require a lot of manual intervention. We don't really need our own buildsys, since the docs packages would live in Extras anyway. * As far as the process goes, I see it as snapshotting the CVS for SOURCES stuff, updating Extras CVS with the results, and do a build request on normal channels. Package versioning is done from the CVS date, per Fedora Extras guidelines. The resulting packages can be linked from the f.r.c/docs/* pages alongside any tarballs. * I am not keen on a single docs package, because updates should be available on a rolling schedule in very small pieces. Some documents require large files bundled in the package; an example is the Installation Guide, which has a few MB worth of screen shots. Users should not be required to download that amount of material just to get a new release of foo-tutorial. A better organization would be: * fedora-docs-common: Anything used by all the docs, such as CSS; probably to be installed in %{_docdir}/fedora-docs/ * fedora-install-guide: self-explanatory, sits in %{_docdir}/fedora-docs/install-guide/ * fedora-documentation-guide: ...and so forth... Note that these are not subpackages, so that their version information can move independently and track the revision history in each doc if need be. This is especially important with the canonical guides, although I could see using CVS dating (i.e. M.m-R.YYYYMMDDcvs) as well. My preference would be to keep it simple if possible. * I would like the /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html file (which is part of fedora-release, and comes up when people launch Firefox) to show a SHORT and informative menu on how to: * Read the release notes * Install and update software, in particular Fedora docs (i.e. "yum install fedora-docs\*" plus link to Stuart's yum doc) * Access fedoraproject.org, especially the Wiki * Get involved in Fedora (probably also through fp.org) This menu should simply be incorporated at the top of the release notes to minimize clicking around for new users as well as the work required to get it in under deadline. I'm sure everyone can come up with additional thoughts -- I am trying to jot all this down quickly, so I've likely forgotten important things. Have at it, please! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 22:02:17 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:02:17 -0700 Subject: Minutes FDSCo meeting 23 August 2005 Message-ID: <1124834537.10409.72.camel@erato.phig.org> Topics that will come from this meeting to the list for discussion: * How to best utilize the Wiki? * Schedule for FC5 * CVS organization for translations ################################################## FDSCo Meeting 23 August 2005 #fedora-docs, irc.freenode.net Attending: ========== Tommy Reynolds Tammy Fox Paul Frields Gavin Henry Stuart Ellis Karsten Wade Regrets: ======== Mark Johnson Guests: ======= Rahul Sundaram Updates: ======== * Working on getting a docs-needed field/switch in bugzilla: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla-devel/show_bug.cgi?id=166310 * Wiki - need to embrace - ACL control of wiki/Docs/ to DocWriters, some pages to DocEditors - every page that is documentation has a clear owner, and some ACLs when it's promoted - promoted will eventually mean the canonical is in XML in CVS, with the Wiki pulling from there - all non-finished pages are part of Docs Rawhide * First proposed schedule 2 November - test1 documentation freeze 7 November - test1 release 7 December - test2 documentation freeze 12 December - test2 release 4 January - test3 documentation freeze 9 January - test3 release 1 February - FC5 documentation freeze (final) 13 February - FC5 release * Second proposed schedule to include trans freezes * Working on Docs Rawhide - autobuild from CVS - all Wiki content that is not promoted * Working on a special keyword for developers to use in commit logs that will tag the log content as wanting docs attention, usually for release notes. Actions: ======== Karsten - make [docme] the keyword, work with Sopwith on how soon to start Karsten - get a new ACL group DocEditors for special doc-locked pages, start with FedoraMyths and ForbiddenItems All - offer help to Elliot for infrastucture testing, tech help, etc. Karsten - take trans CVS organization to f-docs-l Karsten - update docs/trans schedule to include trans freeze, recognize packagin Tommy - multi-lingual Makefile ## 30 ## -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 22:08:10 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:38:10 +0530 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <430B9E4A.8010305@redhat.com> Hi >I'm sure everyone can come up with additional thoughts -- I am trying to >jot all this down quickly, so I've likely forgotten important things. >Have at it, please! > > Yum uses package groups instead of dummy packages extensively to take care of users who want to install all the relevant documentation in a single step . So while contributing new packages to the Extras repository, make sure that we have a group called say "Fedora Docs", so I can do #yum groupinstall "Fedora Docs" regards Rahul From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Tue Aug 23 22:09:33 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:09:33 -0500 Subject: Fedora DTD? In-Reply-To: <200508231158.43894.admin@buddhalinux.com> References: <200508231158.43894.admin@buddhalinux.com> Message-ID: <20050823170933.bdb76c4b.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Thomas Jones , spake thus: > I have quickly built up a DTD Driver for the Docbook 4.2 release. This driver > contains declarations for Fedora Core specific documentation. I am not in favor of this subsetting (even if it's a proper subset) approach. What we have is already rigorously documented in several books at Borders, Barnes & Noble, Books-A-Million, Amazon, et. al., hope I didn't leave out your favorite; if I'd remembered it I would have plugged it. An "approved subset" would be yet another learning level for newbies. I'd much rather see our current Documentation Guide fully-fleshed out with recommended (or at least tested) examples for the monkey-see-monkey-document crowd. No slur intended, but it's really much easier to bang out a DocBook document with minimal learning curve by just looking at an example of what you want to do; no "internalized learning" required. That's just my $2e+23 opinion. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 22:09:40 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:09:40 -0400 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <430B9E4A.8010305@redhat.com> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430B9E4A.8010305@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124834980.3261.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 03:38 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > >I'm sure everyone can come up with additional thoughts -- I am trying to > >jot all this down quickly, so I've likely forgotten important things. > >Have at it, please! > > > > > Yum uses package groups instead of dummy packages extensively to take > care of users who want to install all the relevant documentation in a > single step . So while contributing new packages to the Extras > repository, make sure that we have a group called say "Fedora Docs", so > I can do > > #yum groupinstall "Fedora Docs" Excellent point! Can groups be defined in Extras and not Core? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dmalcolm at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 22:15:24 2005 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:15:24 -0400 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 17:56 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I want to take a stab at packaging at least a few of the biggie Fedora > docs for FC5. Some of these thoughts below: [snip] > > * Packages will consist of HTML. The XML will be in the .src.rpm as > expected. Building to be done via the buildsys/plague per normal > routine, unless someone has a better idea that doesn't require a lot of > manual intervention. We don't really need our own buildsys, since the > docs packages would live in Extras anyway. Can we ship the XML (perhaps as well) and have the documentation readable in Yelp? It would be great to have the installed Fedora docs appear when clicking on the desktop's "Help" menu item. [snip] From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 22:28:18 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:58:18 +0530 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124834980.3261.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430B9E4A.8010305@redhat.com> <1124834980.3261.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <430BA302.4090802@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: >On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 03:38 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Hi >> >> >> >>>I'm sure everyone can come up with additional thoughts -- I am trying to >>>jot all this down quickly, so I've likely forgotten important things. >>>Have at it, please! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Yum uses package groups instead of dummy packages extensively to take >>care of users who want to install all the relevant documentation in a >>single step . So while contributing new packages to the Extras >>repository, make sure that we have a group called say "Fedora Docs", so >>I can do >> >>#yum groupinstall "Fedora Docs" >> >> > >Excellent point! Can groups be defined in Extras and not Core? > > > Yes. It can be. Defining package groups for extras is even part of the agenda. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC5Future regards Rahul From stuart at elsn.org Tue Aug 23 22:57:08 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:57:08 +0100 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124837829.2949.81.camel@Vigor10> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:15 -0400, David Malcolm wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 17:56 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > I want to take a stab at packaging at least a few of the biggie Fedora > > docs for FC5. Some of these thoughts below: > > [snip] > > > > > * Packages will consist of HTML. The XML will be in the .src.rpm as > > expected. Building to be done via the buildsys/plague per normal > > routine, unless someone has a better idea that doesn't require a lot of > > manual intervention. We don't really need our own buildsys, since the > > docs packages would live in Extras anyway. > > Can we ship the XML (perhaps as well) and have the documentation > readable in Yelp? It would be great to have the installed Fedora docs > appear when clicking on the desktop's "Help" menu item. The XML files for the existing documents are actually pretty small: Installation Guide: 114k Yum tutorial: 58k So if each document is in a separate package I don't think that it would add much to the size. The IG ends up being large, but that's just all the PNG files. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Tue Aug 23 23:03:46 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:03:46 +0200 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124838226.5253.12.camel@littlePiet> Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 17:56 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > * Since docs are not absolutely necessary to run a system, Extras seems > like the right place to me. Hm, if there is a lack of documentation you can't use a lot of systems. Obviously many people can use Fedora despite of a current lack of documentation (as we see from FC1 to FC4 :-) ), nevertheless I would vote to have the documentation in the core package (at least in the long run). Perhaps it is possibly to differ between several documents. - User guide (if we would have it), yum guide, release notes, etc. part of core - program related guides bundled with the program (e.g. Samba guide in the Samba devision), either in core of extra, depends on the programs location - guides about broader, but special themes in extras (e.g. rpm packaging guide) > Putting Fedora on a diet was discussed > endlessly before and after FC4, so I'm not sure we can make a great case > for getting docs into Core. As long as we don't have localized docs the documentation doesn't need so much space, I suppose. > Nor should we really bother -- Extras is > not a second-class citizen or a myth, It isn't indeed. But may be you need some kind of documentation before you can use it (e.g. yum guide) or even know about it. > * I would like the /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html file (which is part of > fedora-release, and comes up when people launch Firefox) to show a SHORT > and informative menu on how to: > > * Read the release notes > * Install and update software, in particular Fedora docs > (i.e. "yum install fedora-docs\*" plus link to Stuart's yum doc) > * Access fedoraproject.org, especially the Wiki > * Get involved in Fedora (probably also through fp.org) Very good idea in my opinion! Peter From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Tue Aug 23 23:11:38 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:11:38 +0200 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124838699.5253.20.camel@littlePiet> Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 18:15 -0400 schrieb David Malcolm: > Can we ship the XML (perhaps as well) and have the documentation > readable in Yelp? It would be great to have the installed Fedora docs > appear when clicking on the desktop's "Help" menu item. This feature should become a central goal. Currently the help button is of quite limited use if you want to learn something about Fedora specific topics. It is in it's current incarnation even of very limited use as a starting point and quick access help to reach the available information most installed programs deliver in /usr/share/docs. But this intention may conflict with the intention to meet the upstream work as much as possible? Peter From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 23:12:11 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 04:42:11 +0530 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124838226.5253.12.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124838226.5253.12.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <430BAD4B.3080609@redhat.com> Peter Boy wrote: >Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 17:56 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > > >>* Since docs are not absolutely necessary to run a system, Extras seems >>like the right place to me. >> >> > >Hm, if there is a lack of documentation you can't use a lot of systems. >Obviously many people can use Fedora despite of a current lack of >documentation (as we see from FC1 to FC4 :-) ), nevertheless I would >vote to have the documentation in the core package (at least in the long >run). > > > Dont forget that packaging them in extras is a good first step and in many cases, the logical step before requesting that they be added in core >Perhaps it is possibly to differ between several documents. > >- User guide (if we would have it), yum guide, release notes, etc. > part of core > > Release notes is already part of core, packaged with fedora-release rpm >It isn't indeed. But may be you need some kind of documentation before >you can use it (e.g. yum guide) or even know about it. > > Not really. Fedora installer is getting the ability to use other repositories including extras soon. I presume that detail will be in the installation guide and users can choose to install the package along with anything else in core. If it gets a honourable mention in the release notes we are all set regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 23:13:56 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 04:43:56 +0530 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124837829.2949.81.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1124837829.2949.81.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <430BADB4.9070307@redhat.com> Hi >>Can we ship the XML (perhaps as well) and have the documentation >>readable in Yelp? It would be great to have the installed Fedora docs >>appear when clicking on the desktop's "Help" menu item. >> >> How about KDE users. I wouldnt be pleased if I was one and wanted to install documentation and end up installing yelp etc as dependencies regards Rahul From stuart at elsn.org Tue Aug 23 23:19:06 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:19:06 +0100 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124838226.5253.12.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124838226.5253.12.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124839147.2949.92.camel@Vigor10> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 01:03 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > Putting Fedora on a diet was discussed > > endlessly before and after FC4, so I'm not sure we can make a great case > > for getting docs into Core. > > As long as we don't have localized docs the documentation doesn't need > so much space, I suppose. > > > Nor should we really bother -- Extras is > > not a second-class citizen or a myth, > > It isn't indeed. But may be you need some kind of documentation before > you can use it (e.g. yum guide) or even know about it. AIUI, part of the plan for integrating yum into anaconda is that the Extras repository will be available during the installation process. Which also means that we will have to cover it in the next IG, I guess :). But this raises a interesting point - if no packages from Extras are installed by default, then we may have to try to have packages in Core, or the default installation for new users will have no docs. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 23:19:56 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 04:49:56 +0530 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124838699.5253.20.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1124838699.5253.20.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <430BAF1C.8050408@redhat.com> Peter Boy wrote: >Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 18:15 -0400 schrieb David Malcolm: > > >>Can we ship the XML (perhaps as well) and have the documentation >>readable in Yelp? It would be great to have the installed Fedora docs >>appear when clicking on the desktop's "Help" menu item. >> >> > >This feature should become a central goal. Currently the help button is >of quite limited use if you want to learn something about Fedora >specific topics. It is in it's current incarnation even of very limited >use as a starting point and quick access help to reach the available >information most installed programs deliver in /usr/share/docs. > >But this intention may conflict with the intention to meet the upstream >work as much as possible? > > >Peter > > If there are good reasons to deviate from upstream in a preferably non intrusive fashion, we can request that. The idea to stick close to upstream is not a iron clad rule. Its a general guideline. Since Fedora releases are not in sync with all of the several different upstream projects, many of the packages would end up carrying bug fixes that havent been upstreamed yet. So we should carefully evaluate the cost of maintaining a patch vs the advantage of doing so everytime we deviate from upstream packages In this if the underlying help system itself is DE neutral in such a way that the same documents show up in any DE/WM that we ship in core, its reasonable to provide a patch for that system to show the Fedora documentation too but as long core includes both GNOME and KDE, adding a dependency to yelp for the documentation packages looks unreasonable to me regards Rahul From dmalcolm at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 23:23:39 2005 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:23:39 -0400 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <430BAF1C.8050408@redhat.com> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1124838699.5253.20.camel@littlePiet> <430BAF1C.8050408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124839419.9805.55.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 04:49 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Peter Boy wrote: > > >Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 18:15 -0400 schrieb David Malcolm: > > > > > >>Can we ship the XML (perhaps as well) and have the documentation > >>readable in Yelp? It would be great to have the installed Fedora docs > >>appear when clicking on the desktop's "Help" menu item. > >> > >> > > > >This feature should become a central goal. Currently the help button is > >of quite limited use if you want to learn something about Fedora > >specific topics. It is in it's current incarnation even of very limited > >use as a starting point and quick access help to reach the available > >information most installed programs deliver in /usr/share/docs. > > > >But this intention may conflict with the intention to meet the upstream > >work as much as possible? > > > > > >Peter > > > > > If there are good reasons to deviate from upstream in a preferably non > intrusive fashion, we can request that. The idea to stick close to > upstream is not a iron clad rule. Its a general guideline. Since Fedora > releases are not in sync with all of the several different upstream > projects, many of the packages would end up carrying bug fixes that > havent been upstreamed yet. So we should carefully evaluate the cost of > maintaining a patch vs the advantage of doing so everytime we deviate > from upstream packages > > In this if the underlying help system itself is DE neutral in such a way > that the same documents show up in any DE/WM that we ship in core, its > reasonable to provide a patch for that system to show the Fedora > documentation too but as long core includes both GNOME and KDE, adding a > dependency to yelp for the documentation packages looks unreasonable to me I wasn't proposing adding a yelp dependency to the documentation, I was proposing shipping the DocBook XML source of the documentation, and whatever metadata is required (if any) to get both GNOME and KDE's help viewers to be aware of the files. From stuart at elsn.org Tue Aug 23 23:24:37 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:24:37 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Docs packaging] Message-ID: <1124839477.2949.98.camel@Vigor10> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 04:43 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > >>Can we ship the XML (perhaps as well) and have the documentation > >>readable in Yelp? It would be great to have the installed Fedora docs > >>appear when clicking on the desktop's "Help" menu item. > >> > >> > How about KDE users. I wouldnt be pleased if I was one and wanted to > install documentation and end up installing yelp etc as dependencies From what I can get from Google, KHelpCenter also reads ScrollKeeper files (the metadata files that Yelp uses to identify DocBook documents for it's index), although that is not it's native format. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Stuart Ellis Subject: Re: Docs packaging Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:22:46 +0100 Size: 1963 URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 23:28:57 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 04:58:57 +0530 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124839419.9805.55.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1124838699.5253.20.camel@littlePiet> <430BAF1C.8050408@redhat.com> <1124839419.9805.55.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <430BB139.5000808@redhat.com> Hi >I wasn't proposing adding a yelp dependency to the documentation, I was >proposing shipping the DocBook XML source of the documentation, and >whatever metadata is required (if any) to get both GNOME and KDE's help >viewers to be aware of the files. > > Apologies for reading it incorrectly. Having it show up in both of the help viewers is a good enhancement. regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 23:32:56 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:32:56 -0700 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <430B9E4A.8010305@redhat.com> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430B9E4A.8010305@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124839976.10409.92.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 03:38 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > >I'm sure everyone can come up with additional thoughts -- I am trying to > >jot all this down quickly, so I've likely forgotten important things. > >Have at it, please! > > > > > Yum uses package groups instead of dummy packages extensively to take > care of users who want to install all the relevant documentation in a > single step . So while contributing new packages to the Extras > repository, make sure that we have a group called say "Fedora Docs", so > I can do > > #yum groupinstall "Fedora Docs" Please make it the "Fedora Documentation" group instead. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 23:34:58 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:34:58 -0700 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124840098.10409.95.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:15 -0400, David Malcolm wrote: > Can we ship the XML (perhaps as well) and have the documentation > readable in Yelp? It would be great to have the installed Fedora docs > appear when clicking on the desktop's "Help" menu item. We still want a .src.rpm, so we can include the Makefile et al. I.e., the build environment and stuff is different. Paul, can we add a designation to the package to show 'html' and 'xml', or should we just go ahead and package the XML with the HTML? No XSL, naturally. I think I like the idea of XML and HTML living in the same package, and metadata to get help systems to find *both*. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 23:47:08 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:47:08 -0700 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124838226.5253.12.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124838226.5253.12.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124840828.10409.105.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 01:03 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 17:56 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > > * Since docs are not absolutely necessary to run a system, Extras seems > > like the right place to me. > > Hm, if there is a lack of documentation you can't use a lot of systems. > Obviously many people can use Fedora despite of a current lack of > documentation (as we see from FC1 to FC4 :-) ), nevertheless I would > vote to have the documentation in the core package (at least in the long > run). Viscerally, I agree. However, size is a problem we have to deal with, and end-user docs with lots of screenshots are big. And we do hope to have translations of most of the important ones, so then everyone wants those included. For the record, application documentation that comes in the package and usually ends up in /usr/share/doc/ is not part of this discussion. We don't own or affect that content, at least, not directly. > Perhaps it is possibly to differ between several documents. > > - User guide (if we would have it), yum guide, release notes, etc. > part of core I could see rallying for this, if the package was small. The relnotes exist, and have grown with a screenshot and more text recently, and a general Fedora Desktop User Guide that had many good bits within would be quite useful. Unfortunately, those who need such docs are usually the ones who need more screenshots than CLI usage, and thus the size of the docs grows hugely. > - program related guides bundled with the program (e.g. Samba > guide in the Samba devision), either in core of extra, depends > on the programs location We would have a harder time arguing for Samba docs to be available in Core just because Samba was. I think these are perfect for Extras. > - guides about broader, but special themes in extras (e.g. > rpm packaging guide) Yes, et al. > > Nor should we really bother -- Extras is > > not a second-class citizen or a myth, > > It isn't indeed. But may be you need some kind of documentation before > you can use it (e.g. yum guide) or even know about it. Aside from inclusion in Anaconda, there is definitely value in a Desktop User Guide. Maybe it has few screenshots and is just a master guide that sends you to more online documentation, call it a Desktop Quick Start Guide. One thing it does is get you into using yum/pup. > > * I would like the /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html file (which is part of > > fedora-release, and comes up when people launch Firefox) to show a SHORT > > and informative menu on how to: > > > > * Read the release notes > > * Install and update software, in particular Fedora docs > > (i.e. "yum install fedora-docs\*" plus link to Stuart's yum doc) > > * Access fedoraproject.org, especially the Wiki > > * Get involved in Fedora (probably also through fp.org) > > Very good idea in my opinion! Note that this content, owned by the fedora-release package, is actually drawn from the release notes that we write. So, we are in direct control of this content. Now, getting stuff about the Table of Contents is XSL-fu work that we need to consider. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From admin at buddhalinux.com Tue Aug 23 23:48:42 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:48:42 -0500 Subject: Fedora DTD? In-Reply-To: <20050823170933.bdb76c4b.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <200508231158.43894.admin@buddhalinux.com> <20050823170933.bdb76c4b.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <200508231848.49124.admin@buddhalinux.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 23 August 2005 17:09, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Thomas Jones , spake thus: > > I have quickly built up a DTD Driver for the Docbook 4.2 release. This > > driver contains declarations for Fedora Core specific documentation. > > I am not in favor of this subsetting (even if it's a proper subset) > approach. What we have is already rigorously documented in several > books at Borders, Barnes & Noble, Books-A-Million, Amazon, et. al., > hope I didn't leave out your favorite; if I'd remembered it I would > have plugged it. > Very good point. That definitely would be a disadvantage. You got my favorite. ;) > An "approved subset" would be yet another learning level for newbies. > I'd much rather see our current Documentation Guide fully-fleshed out > with recommended (or at least tested) examples for the > monkey-see-monkey-document crowd. No slur intended, but it's really > much easier to bang out a DocBook document with minimal learning > curve by just looking at an example of what you want to do; no > "internalized learning" required. > Actually, being a subset and not a superset; there is less that a end-user would need to learn. Take for instance the following elements: sidebar synopsis bridgehead dedication sect[1-5] Are any of these, needed? I hadn't realized it but somewhere in the wiki ---- I don't remember where --- it is stated not to utilize the sect elements. It just so happens that as a habit/preference I don't use these elements anyways. However without a correct document model, all instances derived thusly can and may be utilizing irrelevant, unneeded, or unwanted content simply because they are a part of the original xml markup language. As one of the editors once stated offlist, I am one of the seemingly few people who likes XML Markup. So I tend to see the project from another angle. Whether that's good or bad I am not sure yet. ;) Thomas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDC7XfoR5cE1e/kEIRAo24AJ9uxVpDGnLHp1YJaFjGhTxyHhKfRgCffBjH c4zltTHQbIhWWUTKCksbgn4= =DeVP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 23:51:12 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:51:12 -0700 Subject: Web sidebar fix In-Reply-To: <1124723387.6900.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124723387.6900.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124841072.10409.109.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 11:09 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > The following bug may not have been seen by all the FDP people with the > ability to fix it -- I didn't take time to note who ended up on the BZ > email list: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=166402 > > This will allow the right-side link list on fedora.redhat.com to show > the range of documentation we've produced, instead of a big void like it > shows now. :-) Tested fine on my local copy, just needs someone with > appropriate access (Tammy or Karsten...?) to grab and apply the patch. Done. Also updated the central content on that page: http://fedora.redhat.com/ - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 00:03:21 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:03:21 -0400 Subject: Fedora DTD? In-Reply-To: <200508231848.49124.admin@buddhalinux.com> References: <200508231158.43894.admin@buddhalinux.com> <20050823170933.bdb76c4b.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <200508231848.49124.admin@buddhalinux.com> Message-ID: <1124841801.3226.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:48 -0500, Thomas Jones wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Tuesday 23 August 2005 17:09, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > Uttered Thomas Jones , spake thus: > > > I have quickly built up a DTD Driver for the Docbook 4.2 release. This > > > driver contains declarations for Fedora Core specific documentation. > > > > I am not in favor of this subsetting (even if it's a proper subset) > > approach. What we have is already rigorously documented in several > > books at Borders, Barnes & Noble, Books-A-Million, Amazon, et. al., > > hope I didn't leave out your favorite; if I'd remembered it I would > > have plugged it. > > > Very good point. That definitely would be a disadvantage. > You got my favorite. ;) > > > An "approved subset" would be yet another learning level for newbies. > > I'd much rather see our current Documentation Guide fully-fleshed out > > with recommended (or at least tested) examples for the > > monkey-see-monkey-document crowd. No slur intended, but it's really > > much easier to bang out a DocBook document with minimal learning > > curve by just looking at an example of what you want to do; no > > "internalized learning" required. > > > > Actually, being a subset and not a superset; there is less that a end-user > would need to learn. > > Take for instance the following elements: > sidebar > synopsis > bridgehead > dedication > sect[1-5] > > Are any of these, needed? I hadn't realized it but somewhere in the wiki ---- > I don't remember where --- it is stated not to utilize the sect elements. It > just so happens that as a habit/preference I don't use these elements > anyways. However without a correct document model, all instances derived > thusly can and may be utilizing irrelevant, unneeded, or unwanted > content simply because they are a part of the original xml markup language. > > As one of the editors once stated offlist, I am one of the seemingly few > people who likes XML Markup. So I tend to see the project from another angle. > Whether that's good or bad I am not sure yet. Just because an element's not listed doesn't mean we don't use it. The guidance was created to make docs more modular, and it has proven worthwhile several times for me personally. The ease of transmuting docs received with just using some simple sed lines means no one has to break a sweat even if a writer uses that element. For any elements that need special guidance for FDP, that's what the Documentation Guide is for. I'm with Tommy on this one; defining this (a) takes energy away from docs and puts it toward unnecessary process, and (b) creates a need for additional documentation when DocBook is already covered. If we had hundreds of volunteer doc monkeys typing away, I would say go for it, but when we're still trying to put together the basis, it's probably not time for this. But it's worth keeping in mind for some future time when those armies of doc monkeys *do* show up... :-) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 00:07:27 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:07:27 -0400 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124840098.10409.95.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124835324.9805.52.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> <1124840098.10409.95.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124842047.3226.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 16:34 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:15 -0400, David Malcolm wrote: > > > Can we ship the XML (perhaps as well) and have the documentation > > readable in Yelp? It would be great to have the installed Fedora docs > > appear when clicking on the desktop's "Help" menu item. > > We still want a .src.rpm, so we can include the Makefile et al. I.e., > the build environment and stuff is different. > > Paul, can we add a designation to the package to show 'html' and 'xml', > or should we just go ahead and package the XML with the HTML? No XSL, > naturally. > > I think I like the idea of XML and HTML living in the same package, and > metadata to get help systems to find *both*. I think the yelp stuff is a GREAT idea. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't just all live in the same binary package for each doc, and will address this in the package. Install it once, get it wherever you tend to look, whether that be %{_docdir}/HTML/*, yelp, or something else in the future. XML is small, compressed XML is *really* small. :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Wed Aug 24 00:08:31 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:08:31 +0200 Subject: Proposal: Building Packages under Fedora In-Reply-To: <1124771400.3414.58.camel@ignacio.lan> References: <1124771400.3414.58.camel@ignacio.lan> Message-ID: <1124842111.5253.33.camel@littlePiet> Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 00:30 -0400 schrieb Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams: > notecase format (available in Fedora Extras). valuable hint for me - didn't know it. In Introduction you might add as a conclusion from your text: Even for non programmers (but administrators / users ) one should make an rpm package for all software, which the user will install from a tar ball because no rpm is available or because he/she has to change its behaviour. Because it is easier to administer the system. Perhaps you should add a section after the Introduction with the titel "goals and intended audience" of something like that. You should add some information as - what can be learned here - what is different form generell rpm guides (as MaximumRPM) (perhaps: shorter / limited to essential? with features specific to the Fedora distribution?) - relation to the packaging guide of the extras project. Regards Peter From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 00:26:02 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:26:02 -0700 Subject: Wiki musings Message-ID: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> We had a lively discussion about Wiki at the FDSCo meeting this week. Here is my summary of the current argument and ideas: Fact: The community has bypassed FDP technologies in favor of the Wiki Fact: To still be the project that handles Fedora documentation, we need to address this activity. These docs need to be brought into the fold, and a process created to formalize them. Why the last fact? Our goal is to create high quality documentation for Fedora. Tools are not specified in that goal. Just the quality. Printable, packageable, viewable with XML viewers, useful offline as well as on. To ensure quality, we need: * Actual technical and grammatical editing * Some control over some kinds of content, to protect from accidental or malicious tampering * Multiple output formats for our finished documentation To get those, we need to move our process to include the Wiki. Otherwise, there is a growing amount of documentation that is within the project because it is hosted on fedoraproject.org, but is not QA'd or available for printing, etc. Here are some ideas for how to accomplish this: * Create a structure in the Wiki that will let us host a Docs/Drafts/Foo and a Docs/Foo, to help differentiate draft content * Draft documents must have the word Draft in their title, perhaps even their Wiki title? The name could be changed (using a rename or a #redirect) to the final doc, when finalized. * Editors need to subscribe to /Docs/Drafts/* and help writers by watching content changes. Via RSS feed, if they prefer. * wiki/Docs/Drafts/ needs to be closed to all but those in the DocWriters groups. This membership should be easy to obtain. * Wiki/Docs/ needs to be for DocEditors only * We can add people to those groups quickly and easily, and we encourage cross-work. If you see something that needs fixing within those trees, fix it, knowing others are watching you to help fix your mistakes. * To be promoted from wiki/Docs/Drafts to wiki/Docs/ requires an editor approve the document as ready to publish. Once it's moved, the writer can continue to work on it. Anyone else who wants to work on it need only be in the DocWriter group, which is the same as described in NewWriters. Developers need to have self-intro'd on some mailing list. :) * New documents can be written and abandoned in Docs/Drafts/. We'll have quarterly clean-ups and purge cruft. This is a safe scratch space, well marked with "Tygers Be Here, Users Run Away!!" * Formal documents should be available in PDF, tarball, and RPM format. To accomplish this, part of promoting every document to Docs/ is to create a CVS module for it and get the Wiki to pull from CVS instead of its own flat-files. This last part is the one that requires some new infrastructure. I am working on this with Seth and Elliot. The idea is to edit the XML directly through the Wiki, with the XML stored in CVS and thus part of the whole build system. Bottom line is, your choice of what tool to edit your content should not stop us from fully utilizing your content. Opening up our documentation this way will attract developers who won't fool with XML in CVS. We just give them DocWriter access, and away they go. Thoughts? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From webmanagement at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 01:34:45 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andrew Hudson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:34:45 +0100 Subject: Self-Introduction: Andrew Hudson Message-ID: <430BCEB5.70305@gmail.com> 1. Andrew (Andy) Hudson * City, Country: Trowbridge, UK * Profession or Student Status CRM Development Manager * Company or School Future Publishing * Your goals in the Fedora Project * What do you want to write about Productivity Applications, ie OO.o, Evolution, Firefox, Thunderbird etc. Things from a new user perspective. * What other documentation do you want to see published? Demystifing Fedora Core, Beginner guides to 'blah' * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? Either or, really. * Anything else special Burning desire to move Fedora Core forward in usability terms * Historical Qualifications * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? I regularly write for Linux Format magazine in the UK, specialising on RH/Fedora based distros. I am also the co-author for Fedora Core 4 Unleashed by Sams Publishing and will be co-writing Fedora Core 5 Unleashed. * What level and type of computer skills do you have? I am an advanced user, although I do shy away from formal programming. My strengths lie in the 'user' arena, helping others to move towards Open Source applications. Particular experience in Samba and also in yum. * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? I am a good people person, having had a background in technical sales. Also able to describe complex concepts in ways that end users (particularly newbies) can understand easily. * What makes you an excellent match for the project? An intense desire to see Fedora Core as the number one community distro. My background in writing a large book on Fedora Core * GPG KEYID and fingerprint pub 1024D/F98DB760 2005-08-24 [expires: 2006-08-24] Key fingerprint = A1FD A68E BEC9 4712 0474 3D68 C709 84D7 F98D B760 uid Andrew Hudson (Andrew Hudson) sub 2048g/9F226B42 2005-08-24 [expires: 2006-08-24] From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 01:42:18 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:12:18 +0530 Subject: Self-Introduction: Andrew Hudson In-Reply-To: <430BCEB5.70305@gmail.com> References: <430BCEB5.70305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <430BD07A.9020703@redhat.com> Andrew Hudson wrote: > 1. Andrew (Andy) Hudson > > * City, Country: > Trowbridge, UK > > * Profession or Student Status > CRM Development Manager > > * Company or School > Future Publishing Hey, Welcome home! . I hope this means you got your no-compete clauses sorted out Sams publishing then. Looking forward to your contributors to Fedora documentation regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 01:44:05 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:44:05 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Andrew Hudson In-Reply-To: <430BCEB5.70305@gmail.com> References: <430BCEB5.70305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124847845.10409.146.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 02:34 +0100, Andrew Hudson wrote: > 1. Andrew (Andy) Hudson Welcome! I'm getting familiar with your work, including your recent article in Linux Format. ;-) Your skill, experience, and critical eye are most welcome. Here's a useful page to get started with, you've probably seen it, but we like it as boilerplate: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters Jump in to the discussions, get your CVS access, especially if you intend to write in XML natively, a Wiki account, and have at it. Any questions or thoughts to start? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From webmanagement at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 02:11:25 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andrew Hudson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:11:25 +0100 Subject: Fedora User Guide Message-ID: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > Any questions or thoughts to start? > > - Karsten > Thanks for the welcome! My initial thoughts on the documentation is that it is perfect for established users, i.e., those who have installed a Linux distro previously. However, if I were to put my wife in front of two computers, one with the docs on screen and one with Fedora on screen - she would not really have a clue where to begin. Looking at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas I quite like the look of the Fedora User Guide - this could be a crucial document to help new users ease their way into Fedora & Linux in general. I would see it as being written in a conversational style rather than a straight 'here are the facts in a particular order'. Depending on how in-depth we are looking it could also include some task-based exercises to get users familiar with the software. What are other people's thoughts? If we are to succeed in promoting Fedora, then some of the barriers to entry have to be removed - the Fedora User Guide would be a powerful sledgehammer to pound down the walls of FUD. Thanks, Andy From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 24 02:21:51 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:21:51 -0500 Subject: Wiki musings In-Reply-To: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <430BD9BF.3050701@n-man.com> Karsten Wade wrote: >We had a lively discussion about Wiki at the FDSCo meeting this week. > >Here is my summary of the current argument and ideas: > >Fact: The community has bypassed FDP technologies in favor of the Wiki > >Fact: To still be the project that handles Fedora documentation, we >need to address this activity. These docs need to be brought into the >fold, and a process created to formalize them. > >Why the last fact? > >Our goal is to create high quality documentation for Fedora. Tools are >not specified in that goal. Just the quality. Printable, packageable, >viewable with XML viewers, useful offline as well as on. > >To ensure quality, we need: > >* Actual technical and grammatical editing >* Some control over some kinds of content, to protect from accidental or >malicious tampering > > Once we have the ACLs in place, they will be a big part of this. We can refine more as needed. >* Multiple output formats for our finished documentation > > That's the beauty of DocBook. In addition to the formats that can be rendered directly, we can daisy-chain additional tools to add support for other formats. Obviously, the wiki won't provide this, though. If we can get the wiki using other sources as backends, we might be able to get other formats out of the draft documents, too. When it comes time to move documents from the wiki into another repository, there will be a little bit of work to be done, but we can hopefully automate this entirely in the long run. >To get those, we need to move our process to include the Wiki. >Otherwise, there is a growing amount of documentation that is within the >project because it is hosted on fedoraproject.org, but is not QA'd or >available for printing, etc. > >Here are some ideas for how to accomplish this: > >* Create a structure in the Wiki that will let us host a Docs/Drafts/Foo >and a Docs/Foo, to help differentiate draft content > > > This is very true. It will take a little work/time to figure out exactly what the best structure will be. I know you have already started, and over the next few days, I'll probably flush out a few ideas, too. >* Draft documents must have the word Draft in their title, perhaps even >their Wiki title? The name could be changed (using a rename or a >#redirect) to the final doc, when finalized. > > > If we use the /Drafts/Name structure, the /Drafts part will provide that much. We can create a DraftsCategory, too. This could help out in a few other ways too... >* Editors need to subscribe to /Docs/Drafts/* and help writers by >watching content changes. Via RSS feed, if they prefer. > >* wiki/Docs/Drafts/ needs to be closed to all but those in the >DocWriters groups. This membership should be easy to obtain. > > > Easy to manage once the ACLs are up. >* Wiki/Docs/ needs to be for DocEditors only > > Also covered by the ACLs currently in-progress. >* We can add people to those groups quickly and easily, and we encourage >cross-work. If you see something that needs fixing within those trees, >fix it, knowing others are watching you to help fix your mistakes. > >* To be promoted from wiki/Docs/Drafts to wiki/Docs/ requires an editor >approve the document as ready to publish. Once it's moved, the writer >can continue to work on it. Anyone else who wants to work on it need >only be in the DocWriter group, which is the same as described in >NewWriters. Developers need to have self-intro'd on some mailing >list. :) > >* New documents can be written and abandoned in Docs/Drafts/. We'll >have quarterly clean-ups and purge cruft. This is a safe scratch space, >well marked with "Tygers Be Here, Users Run Away!!" > > > Maybe we can come up with an automatic process for this or at least an easier way to watch for the "cruft" we need to clear. >* Formal documents should be available in PDF, tarball, and RPM format. >To accomplish this, part of promoting every document to Docs/ is to >create a CVS module for it and get the Wiki to pull from CVS instead of >its own flat-files. > >This last part is the one that requires some new infrastructure. I am >working on this with Seth and Elliot. The idea is to edit the XML >directly through the Wiki, with the XML stored in CVS and thus part of >the whole build system. > >Bottom line is, your choice of what tool to edit your content should not >stop us from fully utilizing your content. > >Opening up our documentation this way will attract developers who won't >fool with XML in CVS. We just give them DocWriter access, and away they >go. > >Thoughts? > >- Karsten > > Overall, a good outline of what needs to happen. The ACLs and page structure should be high priorities. We need to get people writing. A lot of experienced doc writers are going to hate the wiki, so we certainly need to minimize how much the wiki is required, but a lot of inexperienced people will prefer the wiki, if for nothing more than ignorance. If we can at least source basic documents from them that way, it is worth while. Anything that gets more people writing will get a +1 from me. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 24 02:28:10 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:28:10 -0500 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <430BDB3A.1000907@n-man.com> Andrew Hudson wrote: > Karsten Wade wrote: > > Any questions or thoughts to start? > > > > - Karsten > > > > Thanks for the welcome! > > My initial thoughts on the documentation is that it is perfect for > established users, i.e., those who have installed a Linux distro > previously. However, if I were to put my wife in front of two > computers, one with the docs on screen and one with Fedora on screen - > she would not really have a clue where to begin. > > Looking at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas I quite > like the look of the Fedora User Guide - this could be a crucial > document to help new users ease their way into Fedora & Linux in > general. I would see it as being written in a conversational style > rather than a straight 'here are the facts in a particular order'. > > Depending on how in-depth we are looking it could also include some > task-based exercises to get users familiar with the software. What are > other people's thoughts? > > If we are to succeed in promoting Fedora, then some of the barriers to > entry have to be removed - the Fedora User Guide would be a powerful > sledgehammer to pound down the walls of FUD. > > Thanks, > > Andy > Agreed 100%. I would say that is probably one of the most important documents listed on that page. It should be no small undertaking. I would say that the more in-depth you can make it without duplicating other documents, the better. I know you are a talented writer, and I am thrilled that you have taken interest in this task. Would you care to put together a quick outline of your thoughts for this document? You're going to need write access on the wiki quickly enough. If you haven't already, create a wiki account, and then let us know what your wiki name is so we can grant you the necessary privileges. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From webmanagement at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 02:42:58 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andrew Hudson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:42:58 +0100 Subject: Docs-Common Message-ID: <430BDEB2.4000809@gmail.com> Hey... Just spent ten minutes grappling with this - don't you think it would be a good idea to update the documentation guide with the new CVS location (docs-common) for the DTDs and Stylesheets etc? It's still pointing to fedora-docs... Thanks, Andy From webmanagement at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 03:03:12 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andrew Hudson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 04:03:12 +0100 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <430BDB3A.1000907@n-man.com> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> <430BDB3A.1000907@n-man.com> Message-ID: <430BE370.4030703@gmail.com> Patrick Barnes wrote: > > You're going to need write access on the wiki quickly enough. If you > haven't already, create a wiki account, and then let us know what your > wiki name is so we can grant you the necessary privileges. > Wiki name is AndrewHudson - grant away :) Andrew From apbrar at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 03:59:47 2005 From: apbrar at gmail.com (Amanpreet Singh Brar) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:29:47 +0530 Subject: Self-Introduction: AP Singh Brar Message-ID: <430BF0B3.7090701@gmail.com> * Amanpreet Singh Brar Alamwalia *Full legal name : Amanpreet Singh Brar *City, Country: Moga (Punjab), India *Profession or Student status: Translator *Company or School: member of Punjabi Translation Team (http://punlinux.sf.net) (o) Your goals in the Fedora Project Translation of Open Source Software and Document in Punjabi (Gurmukhi) *What do you want to write about? User guide * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? NO (0) Historical qualifications * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? I m working for Translation of Open Source Project gnome, kde, xfce, openoffice and working for gnome docs translation. * What level and type of computer skills do you have? I m working for Translation from last 1 and 1/2 year * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc. Translation of GUI * GPG KEYID and fingerprint pub 1024D/A35AFB3B 2005-08-24 Amanpreet Singh Brar Alamwalia (Punjabi) Key fingerprint = C6B9 15F9 203A 3597 1892 F416 9128 AAFB A35A FB3B uid [jpeg image of size 14199] sub 1024g/0B66D407 2005-08-24 From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 24 04:08:58 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:08:58 -0500 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <430BE370.4030703@gmail.com> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> <430BDB3A.1000907@n-man.com> <430BE370.4030703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <430BF2DA.4060307@n-man.com> Andrew Hudson wrote: > Patrick Barnes wrote: > >> >> You're going to need write access on the wiki quickly enough. If you >> haven't already, create a wiki account, and then let us know what your >> wiki name is so we can grant you the necessary privileges. >> > Wiki name is AndrewHudson - grant away :) > > Andrew > > I have added you to the EditGroup of the wiki. This will allow you to make changes to the existing materials on the wiki. We are currently working on a new wiki infrastructure for drafting documents. As this progresses, you will be granted additional permissions as needed to use the new system. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 05:20:52 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:50:52 +0530 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> Andrew Hudson wrote: > Karsten Wade wrote: > > Any questions or thoughts to start? > > > > - Karsten > > > > Thanks for the welcome! > > My initial thoughts on the documentation is that it is perfect for > established users, i.e., those who have installed a Linux distro > previously. However, if I were to put my wife in front of two > computers, one with the docs on screen and one with Fedora on screen - > she would not really have a clue where to begin. > > Looking at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas I quite > like the look of the Fedora User Guide - this could be a crucial > document to help new users ease their way into Fedora & Linux in > general. I would see it as being written in a conversational style > rather than a straight 'here are the facts in a particular order I am not fond of the "user guide" name. It isnt specific enough for my taste. If we have a system administrator guide tommorow, it would like those people arent users of Fedora. If you are writing about the desktop, call it a desktop guide. It is what it is regards Rahul From webmanagement at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 05:54:27 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andrew Hudson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:54:27 +0100 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> Message-ID: <430C0B93.1080501@gmail.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > I am not fond of the "user guide" name. It isnt specific enough for my > taste. If we have a system administrator guide tommorow, it would like > those people arent users of Fedora. If you are writing about the > desktop, call it a desktop guide. It is what it is Rahul, I agree with you - I was just referring to the name that it has currently been given in the DocIdeas wiki page. I'd much prefer that it was something slightly appealing about it, perhaps 'Fedora Desktop 101', or 'Getting Productive with Fedora'. At least these two titles are perhaps more informative and helpful than just Desktop Guide. What do other people think? I'm going to have a think about an outline for such a document today and try to post later on when I have chance. My initial thoughts are to have a self-contained document covering all aspects of Desktop Fedora, limited initally to packages included in Core. And on the subject of informative and helpful - do we default to US English for docs? Thanks, Andrew From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 06:23:53 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:23:53 -0700 Subject: Wiki musings In-Reply-To: <430BD9BF.3050701@n-man.com> References: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> <430BD9BF.3050701@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124864634.10409.173.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 21:21 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Overall, a good outline of what needs to happen. The ACLs and page > structure should be high priorities. We need to get people writing. A > lot of experienced doc writers are going to hate the wiki, so we > certainly need to minimize how much the wiki is required, but a lot of > inexperienced people will prefer the wiki, if for nothing more than > ignorance. If we can at least source basic documents from them that > way, it is worth while. Anything that gets more people writing will get > a +1 from me. Well, there isn't much left for writers to gripe about. Our primary source is DocBook XML, you can write that using OOo or via Wiki. I guess someone might want to use TeX, but we can't please everyone, now can we? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 06:30:21 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:00:21 +0530 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <430C0B93.1080501@gmail.com> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> <430C0B93.1080501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <430C13FD.5030005@redhat.com> Hi > > And on the subject of informative and helpful - do we default to US > English for docs? Yes. We do. We also encourage translators to localize it regards Rahul From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Wed Aug 24 08:16:56 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:16:56 +0200 Subject: Wiki musings In-Reply-To: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124871416.5253.40.camel@littlePiet> Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 17:26 -0700 schrieb Karsten Wade: > We had a lively discussion about Wiki at the FDSCo meeting this week. [...] > To get those, we need to move our process to include the Wiki. That's a very good strategy, I think. > * Create a structure in the Wiki that will let us host a Docs/Drafts/Foo > and a Docs/Foo, to help differentiate draft content Maybe I missunderstand that, but wouldn't it be preferrable to have one integrated table with all content, marked as doc/draft/wiki in one column to provide an easy overview and orientation for the user? For the detail view you can easily organize it in a /doc /doc/draft/ ... structure to fulfill the technical needs of the infrastructure. Peter From stuart at elsn.org Wed Aug 24 09:21:56 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:21:56 +0100 Subject: Wiki musings In-Reply-To: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124875316.7101.241357403@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:26:02 -0700, "Karsten Wade" said: > * Editors need to subscribe to /Docs/Drafts/* and help writers by > watching content changes. Via RSS feed, if they prefer. > > * wiki/Docs/Drafts/ needs to be closed to all but those in the > DocWriters groups. This membership should be easy to obtain. > > * Wiki/Docs/ needs to be for DocEditors only > > * We can add people to those groups quickly and easily, and we encourage > cross-work. If you see something that needs fixing within those trees, > fix it, knowing others are watching you to help fix your mistakes. Just to clarify a point I made on IRC (probably poorly). At least some of the processes that we currently have with CVS are probably going to be the same for Wiki drafting. IANAL, but I have a feeling that people contributing to the drafts will need to go through the same JCA sign-up process as they currently do to get access to the CVS, to ensure that we don't have a copyright problem. So procedure wise we are kind of replacing "CVS access" with "DocsGroups access" and modules with "DocProject/Drafts/DraftXXX". We could probably use the same rule as we currently have for CVS about not editing documents owned by other people if we wish. I'm not sure whether we'd want to discourage casual fixing on drafts in progress, perhaps having named authors for each document who have final say over the structure and content (in tandem with an editor) will be enough to keep the drafts in shape. Since we want to move every draft to being a complete document it's definitely going to be important that the structure of the content follows a standard, and we might have to impose restrictions on page creation too. I'm not how the last point needs to work - will 1 Wiki page = 1 DocBook file when export/CVS links are in place ? -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Aug 24 09:51:17 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:51:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Self-Introduction: Andrew Hudson In-Reply-To: <430BCEB5.70305@gmail.com> References: <430BCEB5.70305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50494.195.38.86.72.1124877077.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Added. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ > 1. Andrew (Andy) Hudson > > * City, Country: > Trowbridge, UK > > * Profession or Student Status > CRM Development Manager > > * Company or School > Future Publishing > > * Your goals in the Fedora Project > > * What do you want to write about > Productivity Applications, ie OO.o, Evolution, Firefox, Thunderbird > etc. Things from a new user perspective. > > * What other documentation do you want to see published? > Demystifing Fedora Core, Beginner guides to 'blah' > > * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? > Either or, really. > > * Anything else special > Burning desire to move Fedora Core forward in usability terms > > * Historical Qualifications > > * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? > I regularly write for Linux Format magazine in the UK, > specialising on RH/Fedora based distros. I am also the co-author for > Fedora Core 4 Unleashed by Sams Publishing and will be co-writing > Fedora Core 5 Unleashed. > > * What level and type of computer skills do you have? > I am an advanced user, although I do shy away from formal > programming. My strengths lie in the 'user' arena, helping others to > move towards Open Source applications. Particular experience in > Samba and also in yum. > > * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? > I am a good people person, having had a background in technical > sales. Also able to describe complex concepts in ways that end users > (particularly newbies) can understand easily. > > * What makes you an excellent match for the project? > An intense desire to see Fedora Core as the number one community > distro. My background in writing a large book on Fedora Core > > * GPG KEYID and fingerprint > > pub 1024D/F98DB760 2005-08-24 [expires: 2006-08-24] > Key fingerprint = A1FD A68E BEC9 4712 0474 3D68 C709 84D7 F98D > B760 > uid Andrew Hudson (Andrew Hudson) > > sub 2048g/9F226B42 2005-08-24 [expires: 2006-08-24] > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Aug 24 09:51:18 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:51:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Self-Introduction: AP Singh Brar In-Reply-To: <430BF0B3.7090701@gmail.com> References: <430BF0B3.7090701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50495.195.38.86.72.1124877078.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Added. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ > * Amanpreet Singh Brar Alamwalia > > *Full legal name : Amanpreet Singh Brar > > *City, Country: Moga (Punjab), India > > *Profession or Student status: Translator > > *Company or School: member of Punjabi Translation Team > (http://punlinux.sf.net) > > (o) Your goals in the Fedora Project > Translation of Open Source Software and Document in Punjabi > (Gurmukhi) > > *What do you want to write about? > User guide > > > * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? > NO > > > (0) Historical qualifications > * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? > I m working for Translation of Open Source Project gnome, > kde, xfce, openoffice and > working for gnome docs translation. > > * What level and type of computer skills do you have? > I m working for Translation from last 1 and 1/2 year > > * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? > User interface design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), > programming, etc. > Translation of GUI > > > * GPG KEYID and fingerprint > pub 1024D/A35AFB3B 2005-08-24 Amanpreet Singh Brar Alamwalia > (Punjabi) > Key fingerprint = C6B9 15F9 203A 3597 1892 F416 9128 AAFB A35A FB3B > uid [jpeg image of size 14199] > sub 1024g/0B66D407 2005-08-24 > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 12:01:24 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:01:24 -0400 Subject: Wiki musings In-Reply-To: <1124871416.5253.40.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124871416.5253.40.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124884885.3227.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 10:16 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 17:26 -0700 schrieb Karsten Wade: > > We had a lively discussion about Wiki at the FDSCo meeting this week. > [...] > > To get those, we need to move our process to include the Wiki. > That's a very good strategy, I think. > > > * Create a structure in the Wiki that will let us host a Docs/Drafts/Foo > > and a Docs/Foo, to help differentiate draft content > > Maybe I missunderstand that, but wouldn't it be preferrable to have one > integrated table with all content, marked as doc/draft/wiki in one > column to provide an easy overview and orientation for the user? For the > detail view you can easily organize it in a /doc /doc/draft/ ... > structure to fulfill the technical needs of the infrastructure. The problem I see with that approach is that with Drafts, we probably want to *discourage* users who are casually browsing the Wiki from gleaning incorrect guidance. If they can read a table full of all the docs at once, many of them will ignore admonitions and read draft docs with an unwarranted level of confidence. I think any table of Drafts should be separated from the table of "finished" documentation. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 12:02:17 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:02:17 -0400 Subject: Docs-Common In-Reply-To: <430BDEB2.4000809@gmail.com> References: <430BDEB2.4000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124884937.3227.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 03:42 +0100, Andrew Hudson wrote: > Hey... > > Just spent ten minutes grappling with this - don't you think it would be > a good idea to update the documentation guide with the new CVS location > (docs-common) for the DTDs and Stylesheets etc? > > It's still pointing to fedora-docs... I will take care of this... could you please file this as a bug in Bugzilla? Doing so helps us track the work. Thanks! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Wed Aug 24 12:17:10 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:17:10 +0200 Subject: Wiki musings In-Reply-To: <1124884885.3227.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124871416.5253.40.camel@littlePiet> <1124884885.3227.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124885831.5253.44.camel@littlePiet> Am Mittwoch, den 24.08.2005, 08:01 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > > Maybe I missunderstand that, but wouldn't it be preferrable to have one > > integrated table with all content, marked as doc/draft/wiki in one > > column to provide an easy overview and orientation for the user? For the > > detail view you can easily organize it in a /doc /doc/draft/ ... > > structure to fulfill the technical needs of the infrastructure. > > The problem I see with that approach is that with Drafts, we probably > want to *discourage* users who are casually browsing the Wiki from > gleaning incorrect guidance. If they can read a table full of all the > docs at once, many of them will ignore admonitions and read draft docs > with an unwarranted level of confidence. That may be a problem, indeed. Perhaps it helps to use different colors for the row background (which may destroy the web design), or to use two or three separate tables? Peter From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 12:40:44 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:40:44 -0400 Subject: Wiki musings In-Reply-To: <1124885831.5253.44.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124871416.5253.40.camel@littlePiet> <1124884885.3227.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124885831.5253.44.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1124887245.3227.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 14:17 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Am Mittwoch, den 24.08.2005, 08:01 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > > > Maybe I missunderstand that, but wouldn't it be preferrable to have one > > > integrated table with all content, marked as doc/draft/wiki in one > > > column to provide an easy overview and orientation for the user? For the > > > detail view you can easily organize it in a /doc /doc/draft/ ... > > > structure to fulfill the technical needs of the infrastructure. > > > > The problem I see with that approach is that with Drafts, we probably > > want to *discourage* users who are casually browsing the Wiki from > > gleaning incorrect guidance. If they can read a table full of all the > > docs at once, many of them will ignore admonitions and read draft docs > > with an unwarranted level of confidence. > > That may be a problem, indeed. Perhaps it helps to use different colors > for the row background (which may destroy the web design), or to use two > or three separate tables? Neither of those would address the problem of discouraging the casual browsing. They would merely be another kind of admonition. IMHO the tables should be on different pages, with the table of published docs being prominent and the table of drafts... well, somewhere *less* so. :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 12:56:00 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:56:00 -0400 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124888160.3227.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 10:50 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Andrew Hudson wrote: > > > Karsten Wade wrote: > > > Any questions or thoughts to start? > > > > > > - Karsten > > > > > > > Thanks for the welcome! > > > > My initial thoughts on the documentation is that it is perfect for > > established users, i.e., those who have installed a Linux distro > > previously. However, if I were to put my wife in front of two > > computers, one with the docs on screen and one with Fedora on screen - > > she would not really have a clue where to begin. > > > > Looking at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas I quite > > like the look of the Fedora User Guide - this could be a crucial > > document to help new users ease their way into Fedora & Linux in > > general. I would see it as being written in a conversational style > > rather than a straight 'here are the facts in a particular order > > > I am not fond of the "user guide" name. It isnt specific enough for my > taste. If we have a system administrator guide tommorow, it would like > those people arent users of Fedora. If you are writing about the > desktop, call it a desktop guide. It is what it is Yet this nomenclature is commonly accepted throughout the tech industry, and therefore going against it may be confusing when people are trying to assess what kind of skills they have learned. I think a good way of looking at the problem is by drawing the dividing line at the point where you require the root password. The User Guide should be developed parallel with the Administrator Guide. People can easily get their hands on both, and there is absolutely no reason why they couldn't cross-reference each other. We need to think about this documentation, as Tommy Reynolds so helpfully pointed out in some other thread, as more than just serving hobbyist home users. Consultants and professionals may also find value in these documents and they need to serve those needs as well. Any task that requires the root password should be in the Administrator Guide. This simplifies life for sysadmins who want to distribute the User Guide in an office to the customers (users) they serve. It is not helpful to those sysadmins for their users to start reading about administrative tasks that are out of their purview. Any reader who wants to learn can be expected to pull down as many guides as she wants to learn how to run her system fully. If we take the "Desktop Guide" idea to its logical conclusion, the Installation and any Security Guides should be included in it as well. That makes for a large, unwieldy, and awkward document to manage. Even though Guides are larger, they should be split along logical lines, and I think the model above provides an easy answer to doing that. Does this mean that home users will have to refer to more than one guide? Yes, but if the Web site and/or pointer materials have simple instructions for which guide to consult, that is not a problem. For instance: "If you want to learn how to install a Fedora system, consult the Installation Guide ." "If you want to learn how to perform common tasks on your Fedora system or change your personal user preferences, consult the User Guide ." "If you want to learn how to change global system settings or administer network services on your Fedora system, consult the Administration Guide ." "If you want to learn how to further secure your Fedora system, consult the Security Guide ." Although the line of "root password required" is (IMHO) a great place to divide the guides, there may be a call for a *short, sweet* "Getting Started Guide" that discusses only the MOST basic tasks and talks about the differences between the roles of user and administrator. This would help the brand-new user know when they need to look at the User Guide, and when to look at the Administration Guide. This type of setup worked very well in the original Red Hat guides, and there is no reason we should not follow a model that works well. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 13:02:08 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:32:08 +0530 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <1124888160.3227.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> <1124888160.3227.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <430C6FD0.7040401@redhat.com> Hi > >Although the line of "root password required" is (IMHO) a great place to >divide the guides, there may be a call for a *short, sweet* "Getting >Started Guide" that discusses only the MOST basic tasks and talks about >the differences between the roles of user and administrator. > It has been pointed out before but any tool that requires a password for a desktop functionality is broken. We should divide by functionality. Not by whether it requires a root password or not regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 13:12:55 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:12:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wiki musings In-Reply-To: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: My biggest question here: Do we distinguish between "documentation for using Fedora" and "documentation for helping to produce Fedora"? A lot of the stuff that is "documented" on the wiki is process for contributors. "How do I get a package into Extras?" "How do I get an account in the accounts system?" And so forth. These seem like living documents to me. Do you have some good examples of wiki documents that you'd like to formalize? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > We had a lively discussion about Wiki at the FDSCo meeting this week. > > Here is my summary of the current argument and ideas: > > Fact: The community has bypassed FDP technologies in favor of the Wiki > > Fact: To still be the project that handles Fedora documentation, we > need to address this activity. These docs need to be brought into the > fold, and a process created to formalize them. > > Why the last fact? > > Our goal is to create high quality documentation for Fedora. Tools are > not specified in that goal. Just the quality. Printable, packageable, > viewable with XML viewers, useful offline as well as on. > > To ensure quality, we need: > > * Actual technical and grammatical editing > * Some control over some kinds of content, to protect from accidental or > malicious tampering > * Multiple output formats for our finished documentation > > To get those, we need to move our process to include the Wiki. > Otherwise, there is a growing amount of documentation that is within the > project because it is hosted on fedoraproject.org, but is not QA'd or > available for printing, etc. > > Here are some ideas for how to accomplish this: > > * Create a structure in the Wiki that will let us host a Docs/Drafts/Foo > and a Docs/Foo, to help differentiate draft content > > * Draft documents must have the word Draft in their title, perhaps even > their Wiki title? The name could be changed (using a rename or a > #redirect) to the final doc, when finalized. > > * Editors need to subscribe to /Docs/Drafts/* and help writers by > watching content changes. Via RSS feed, if they prefer. > > * wiki/Docs/Drafts/ needs to be closed to all but those in the > DocWriters groups. This membership should be easy to obtain. > > * Wiki/Docs/ needs to be for DocEditors only > > * We can add people to those groups quickly and easily, and we encourage > cross-work. If you see something that needs fixing within those trees, > fix it, knowing others are watching you to help fix your mistakes. > > * To be promoted from wiki/Docs/Drafts to wiki/Docs/ requires an editor > approve the document as ready to publish. Once it's moved, the writer > can continue to work on it. Anyone else who wants to work on it need > only be in the DocWriter group, which is the same as described in > NewWriters. Developers need to have self-intro'd on some mailing > list. :) > > * New documents can be written and abandoned in Docs/Drafts/. We'll > have quarterly clean-ups and purge cruft. This is a safe scratch space, > well marked with "Tygers Be Here, Users Run Away!!" > > * Formal documents should be available in PDF, tarball, and RPM format. > To accomplish this, part of promoting every document to Docs/ is to > create a CVS module for it and get the Wiki to pull from CVS instead of > its own flat-files. > > This last part is the one that requires some new infrastructure. I am > working on this with Seth and Elliot. The idea is to edit the XML > directly through the Wiki, with the XML stored in CVS and thus part of > the whole build system. > > Bottom line is, your choice of what tool to edit your content should not > stop us from fully utilizing your content. > > Opening up our documentation this way will attract developers who won't > fool with XML in CVS. We just give them DocWriter access, and away they > go. > > Thoughts? > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 13:41:12 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:41:12 -0400 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <430C6FD0.7040401@redhat.com> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> <1124888160.3227.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430C6FD0.7040401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124890873.3227.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 18:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >Although the line of "root password required" is (IMHO) a great place to > >divide the guides, there may be a call for a *short, sweet* "Getting > >Started Guide" that discusses only the MOST basic tasks and talks about > >the differences between the roles of user and administrator. > > > > It has been pointed out before but any tool that requires a password for > a desktop functionality is broken. We should divide by functionality. > Not by whether it requires a root password or not Can you give some examples? I am trying to figure out which tools this would apply to. I don't recall getting password prompted for anything which *wasn't* a global system setting change that would affect other users on a managed system. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 13:44:35 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:44:35 -0400 Subject: Wiki musings In-Reply-To: References: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124891075.3227.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 09:12 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > My biggest question here: > > Do we distinguish between "documentation for using Fedora" and > "documentation for helping to produce Fedora"? > > A lot of the stuff that is "documented" on the wiki is process for > contributors. "How do I get a package into Extras?" "How do I get an > account in the accounts system?" And so forth. These seem like living > documents to me. > > Do you have some good examples of wiki documents that you'd like to > formalize? I know a lot of our docs process is on the Wiki, and formalizing that stuff makes sense, since it's not often going to change. For subjects like the examples you (Greg) mention, I would think that trying to formalize that stuff would be like trying to herd cats. Just look at all the changes in the last six months alone! I doubt we need to insert ourselves into that particular work flow. Is there stuff on the development side of the house that's a little more static, and would be a good candidate for formalization? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 13:51:09 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:21:09 +0530 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <1124890873.3227.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> <1124888160.3227.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430C6FD0.7040401@redhat.com> <1124890873.3227.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <430C7B4D.1030502@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: >On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 18:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>>Although the line of "root password required" is (IMHO) a great place to >>>divide the guides, there may be a call for a *short, sweet* "Getting >>>Started Guide" that discusses only the MOST basic tasks and talks about >>>the differences between the roles of user and administrator. >>> >>> >>> >>It has been pointed out before but any tool that requires a password for >>a desktop functionality is broken. We should divide by functionality. >>Not by whether it requires a root password or not >> >> > >Can you give some examples? I am trying to figure out which tools this >would apply to. I don't recall getting password prompted for anything >which *wasn't* a global system setting change that would affect other >users on a managed system. > > I was talking about a general idea, not specific bugs http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-June/msg00161.html regards Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 14:46:00 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:46:00 -0400 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <430C7B4D.1030502@redhat.com> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> <1124888160.3227.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430C6FD0.7040401@redhat.com> <1124890873.3227.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430C7B4D.1030502@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124894761.3227.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 19:21 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > >On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 18:32 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >>>Although the line of "root password required" is (IMHO) a great place to > >>>divide the guides, there may be a call for a *short, sweet* "Getting > >>>Started Guide" that discusses only the MOST basic tasks and talks about > >>>the differences between the roles of user and administrator. > >>> > >>It has been pointed out before but any tool that requires a password for > >>a desktop functionality is broken. We should divide by functionality. > >>Not by whether it requires a root password or not > > > >Can you give some examples? I am trying to figure out which tools this > >would apply to. I don't recall getting password prompted for anything > >which *wasn't* a global system setting change that would affect other > >users on a managed system. > > > I was talking about a general idea, not specific bugs > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-June/msg00161.html Havoc is talking about usability improvements (and 12 months later, in FC4, we can see the effects of work on that front) and how to organize preference tools. When he says a root password does not drive development of the user experience, he's right. But documentation discusses the system *as it exists*, not *how you wish it was*. Moving a piece of documentation from one Guide to another doesn't impact on the usability of the system, it's just a link (whether a hyperlink or a conceptual link) from one page to another. Nevertheless, here's the upshot, that DocBook XML lets us easily grab
modules and drop them from one doc into another. As D-BUS and a few other enabling technologies change the interaction that a "normal" user has with the system, sections can migrate from an Admin Guide to a User Guide easily. If running a specific tool requires the administrator password, a managed user (again "managed user" means "user in the workplace who doesn't necessarily have root") is not going to have access to it. Telling that person how to do something she is not allowed to do causes more aggregate frustration than telling readers "refer to the Admin Guide for information on how to do XYZ." Again, cross-referencing solves the problem for home users and other people who own their system. If the developers make a mistake in deciding to keep a user from making a perfectly reasonable system setting change, it has a far-reaching impact. And if the control tools for changes a user *can* make are organized wrong, the system is harder to use. That's Havoc's point. But using the root password as a dividing line for where to document a tool is still reasonable, since it follows the generally accepted methods of technical documentation. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 15:06:45 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? Message-ID: This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona. She sent in a letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that makes me weep inside. What do we have to say to her? --g -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [CM] RE: Red Hat | Training News | Americas | August 2005 Date: 24 Aug 2005 14:58:40 -0000 From: azgjudy at azgalaxyonline.com To: CC: Support Dear Red Hat, I hope you will get this e-mail. I am a single user computer person. I put yes down - so I could receive your e-mails. To tell you the truth I do not know why. Your main emphasis seems to be on business. I switched from Windows because I thought it would be safer and healthier all the way round. To tell you the truth I feel totally lost in your system. I cannot use my CDs that have games. I downloaded a game I had paid for. No way could I get it to work. I wrote to Linux Game. Their directions were like Greek, and I only speak English. I tried to download the anti-virus I use. They have a version for Linux. No way did I get that. I looked into your training, but that is extremely costly. I have bought books. It all come s down to the fact There is little I am able to do with Linux. Mostly I would like to have a plug-in that works, as to the fact there are many things I am unable to open, including some mail, because I can find no way to do it. Dear Red Hat - what are you doing for us little people out here? I am no further today than I was the day this was installed. Thank you, Judy D. ---- Original Message ---- From: redhat at info.redhat.com To: azgjudy at azgalaxyonline.com Subject: RE: Red Hat | Training News | Americas | August 2005 Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:36:21 -0000 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Red Hat | Training News | August 2005 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >* August trivia question >* Summer gear promotion almost over >* Training press: What certification means to you (Certification > Magazine) >* Red Hat news: Red Hat Network adds monitoring tool, Solaris support > >* South American training news: "Capacitar para progresar" (Latin > Source Tech) >* Ask the expert: Red Hat Training Q & A >* Tips from RHCEs: Remote controlled desktops without VNC > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >AUGUST TRIVIA QUESTION: > >Late last year CertCities.com picked Red Hat Certified Engineer >(RHCE) >as the _____ hottest IT certification for 2005. > >A) 1st >B) 3rd >C) 5th >D) 10th >E) None of the above > >[Stumped? Answer appears at the bottom of this newsletter.] >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~ > >SUMMER GEAR PROMOTION ALMOST OVER: SURF'S UP WITH RED HAT TRAINING > >Improve your skills, increase your career performance, and get Red >Hat >summer gear. Sign up for select summer North American training >courses >and receive: > >* Shadowman boogie board >* Flip-flops >* Visor >* Oversize beach towel >* Kite >* Frisbee > >--> View the gear and learn more about this limited time offer. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai17 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~~ > >TRAINING PRESS: WHAT CERTIFICATION MEANS TO YOU (CERTIFICATION >MAGAZINE) > >"[M]ost qualified candidates feel that their experience speaks for >itself, but as Linux becomes more prevalent in the corporate >environment, more potential employers are looking for certifications >as >a benchmark of the candidate's knowledge and experience in skill sets >relevant to the job at hand. This month, I'll help you to understand >which certifications corporations are looking for - and why." > >--> Read the full article. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai10 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >RED HAT NEWS: RED HAT NETWORK ADDS MONITORING TOOL, SOLARIS SUPPORT >(ENTERPRISE NETWORKING PLANET) > >"Red Hat has announced a new monitoring tool it says will support >Sun's >Solaris as well as its own Linux offerings. The Red Hat Network >Monitoring Module is built on the company's Red Hat Network (RHN), a >web-based systems management tool used to monitor and schedule >updates >for subscribed Red Hat Enterprise Linux systems. RHN allows >administrators to track errata for their systems, create common >software >profiles for groups of systems, and allow for rollback of problematic >updates. The RHN Monitoring Module adds four key pieces of >functionality..." > >--> Read the full article. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai14 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~ > >SOUTH AMERICA TRAINING NEWS > >--> Article: "Capacitar para progresar": >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai15 > >--> South American course schedule and special offers. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai4 > >Email capacitacion at latinsourcetech.com for further information. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >ASK THE EXPERT: Red Hat Training Q & A > >Q: I am a computer software engineer and I have Linux+, OCA (Oracle >Certified Association), and OCP (Oracle Certified Professional) >certifications. I am familiar with Red Hat and I want to improve my >job >position. Can a Red Hat certification help enhance my career and get >me >a job with a large international company? > >Best Regards, >Alireza Rahmani > >A: Thanks for your question Alireza. While it's impossible to ensure >that any professional certification will universally lead to >promotions, >increased responsibility, or high-paying positions with large >companies, >industry analysts agree that RHCT and RHCE are both likely to boost >your >employment options and overall career standing. Recently, >Certification >Magazine and Fairfield Research ranked the RHCE the most valuable >certificaiton in all of IT. In addition, according to numerous >industry >surveys, Red Hat certifications are one of a handful of IT >credentials >that command double digit annual salary increases. > >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai12 > >So while nobody can guarantee that a certification will lead to >automatic career success, most would agree that RHCT and RHCE are >guarantees of competency that resonate with colleagues and employers >alike. > >-->Submit a question. > ask-the-expert at redhat.com >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >TIPS FROM RHCEs: REMOTE CONTROLLED DESKTOPS WITHOUT VNC > >In Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 the GNOME desktop is provided with a >vnc >like service called vino. It will allow a vnc client to remotely >control the logged in users native GNOME desktop and enable desktop >sharing. > >--> Read more. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai9 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >TRIVIA QUESTION ANSWER: > >B) 3rd > >In December, CertCities.com ranked Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE) >as >the third hottest IT certification for 2005. > >-> Read the full article here. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai11 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~ > >Want From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 16:11:50 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050824161150.83287.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona. > She sent in a letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that > makes me weep inside. > What do we have to say to her? Oh, this is a simple one. 1. Terminology 2. Red Hat provides services, but Linux is a community 3. Linux software on Windows First off, you explain that you apologize but there is a great shift in terminology from Windows to UNIX-like systems including Linux. This is often part of the learning curve, much like a Macintosh can be for a Windows user as well. Secondly, you explain that Red Hat services, including business, are often for a price, just as Microsoft services are. But both are geared towards business. But the great think about Linux, unlike Windows, is that there community of users -- most likely already local to her -- that are more than willing to help her for free. [ Send her info on her local Linux user group ] Third, you can point out that Linux can run on Windows, in the form of spyware-free, virus-free Free Software like Firefox, OpenOffice.org, etc... If she is finding the interface and greek of a UNIX-like system too much, she can greatly benefit from running a lot of the Linux software on Windows, instead of going directly to Linux today. And because she will be saving all new data in all new formats, when she eventually does switch to Linux, the transition will be much easier. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Wed Aug 24 16:19:04 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:19:04 +0200 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1124900344.5253.50.camel@littlePiet> Am Mittwoch, den 24.08.2005, 11:06 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg: > This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona. She sent in a > letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that makes me weep inside. > > What do we have to say to her? Welcome in the real world (of users) :-) We should send her text to every contributor in the documentation process. Nevertheless would be nice to take her seriously - maybe you know a LUG in her vicinity? PB From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 16:55:14 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:55:14 -0700 Subject: organizing CVS for trans Message-ID: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> We're going to host the translations of FDP docs in our CVS directories. This makes sense, at least for now, since we are the ones with access to publish translations. Unless there are better ideas? How should the files live? In the same directory as the other XML, just with a country code identifier? thx - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Aug 24 17:01:50 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:01:50 -0500 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > How should the files live? In the same directory as the other XML, just > with a country code identifier? Yes. Side-by-side. foo-en.xml and foo-de.xml will make life easier. On the other hand, in-line translation also works. Each paragraph gets an attribute (it already defaults to "en" IIRC). The translated paragraphs can be placed under the "en" paragraph with a "de" attribute, or whatever. Then, we start up the xmlto setting the desired language. Personally, I like this method best. Haven't done either approach very much, but these are common suggested approaches. TCF, what is your take? Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 24 17:05:53 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:05:53 -0500 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430CA8F1.6000908@n-man.com> Rather than spout off about what we should tell her, I'll take the approach of writing a draft letter: ---- Dear Judy, I am sorry that you have not fully enjoyed your experience with Linux so far. Linux and Windows are drastically different operating systems, and it can be a frustrating change when you are just starting. One of the complaints we hear the most is about games that do not work. Because Windows and Linux are different operating systems, Linux cannot run programs that were built for Windows. Many programs, such as Firefox, are built for both. The games that you have on CDs are most likely not built to run on Linux. You can contact the manufacturers to see if they have produced Linux versions. As an alternative, there are many games available for Linux. A lot of these are available as packages for Red Hat's distribution. There is a big advantage here: they're free! If there are games for Windows that you really want to get running, you can look into Transgaming's Cedega. This is a commercial program that may be able to get some of your Windows games running under Linux. As for your anti-virus software, there really isn't much need for anti-virus software on a Linux desktop. That's one security advantage of Linux. If you would feel more comfortable having anti-virus software, ClamAV is readily available and completely free. We understand that you probably don't want to spend a great deal of money to learn Linux. Most Linux users are tech-savvy folks who read information online and use Google a lot. There may, however, be less expensive and easier options for you. You might be able to find basic classes in your area, or you might be able to connect with a local Linux User Group (LUG) that can help you get started or point you to useful resources. We have looked it up, and found the following information for groups in your area: We are always working hard to make Linux systems easier and more intuitive to use. We don't want you to be stuck with Windows because our systems aren't easy enough. There are very large community teams constantly working to make Linux work for you. One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in touch with the community. You'll find that while there are many people who speek what sounds like Greek to you, there are also many average folks out there who are ready to answer your questions and work with you to help you get things done. Forums, IRC chat, and mailing lists are all popular options. We have put together a short list of links to put you in touch with the community. We do understand your frustration, and are working hard to ease the transition. We hope that you will not give up on Linux, and will stick with us as Linux grows. We value feedback like yours to tell us where we need to focus. We look forward to hearing from you again in the future, hopefully with better news. ---- Okay, there's my draft. Do with it as you will. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 17:41:03 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:41:03 -0700 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1124905264.10409.212.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 12:01 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > > > How should the files live? In the same directory as the other XML, just > > with a country code identifier? > > Yes. Side-by-side. foo-en.xml and foo-de.xml will make life easier. This seems like good organization to me. > On the other hand, in-line translation also works. Each paragraph > gets an attribute (it already defaults to "en" IIRC). The translated > paragraphs can be placed under the "en" paragraph with a "de" > attribute, or whatever. Then, we start up the xmlto setting the > desired language. Personally, I like this method best. Do you mean, translations inline within the same XML file? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 17:56:55 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:56:55 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430CA8F1.6000908@n-man.com> References: <430CA8F1.6000908@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124906216.7693.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 12:05 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Rather than spout off about what we should tell her, I'll take the > approach of writing a draft letter: > ---- > > Dear Judy, > > I am sorry that you have not fully enjoyed your experience with Linux so > far. Linux and Windows are drastically different operating systems, and > it can be a frustrating change when you are just starting. > > One of the complaints we hear the most is about games that do not work. > Because Windows and Linux are different operating systems, Linux cannot > run programs that were built for Windows. Many programs, such as > Firefox, are built for both. The games that you have on CDs are most > likely not built to run on Linux. You can contact the manufacturers to > see if they have produced Linux versions. As an alternative, there are > many games available for Linux. A lot of these are available as packages > for Red Hat's distribution. There is a big advantage here: they're free! > > > > If there are games for Windows that you really want to get running, you > can look into Transgaming's Cedega. This is a commercial program that > may be able to get some of your Windows games running under Linux. > > As for your anti-virus software, there really isn't much need for > anti-virus software on a Linux desktop. That's one security advantage of > Linux. If you would feel more comfortable having anti-virus software, > ClamAV is readily available and completely free. > > > > We understand that you probably don't want to spend a great deal of > money to learn Linux. Most Linux users are tech-savvy folks who read > information online and use Google a lot. There may, however, be less > expensive and easier options for you. You might be able to find basic > classes in your area, or you might be able to connect with a local Linux > User Group (LUG) that can help you get started or point you to useful > resources. We have looked it up, and found the following information for > groups in your area: > > > > We are always working hard to make Linux systems easier and more > intuitive to use. We don't want you to be stuck with Windows because our > systems aren't easy enough. There are very large community teams > constantly working to make Linux work for you. > > One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in touch > with the community. You'll find that while there are many people who > speek what sounds like Greek to you, there are also many average folks > out there who are ready to answer your questions and work with you to > help you get things done. Forums, IRC chat, and mailing lists are all > popular options. We have put together a short list of links to put you > in touch with the community. > > > > We do understand your frustration, and are working hard to ease the > transition. We hope that you will not give up on Linux, and will stick > with us as Linux grows. We value feedback like yours to tell us where we > need to focus. We look forward to hearing from you again in the future, > hopefully with better news. Another possible paragraph (or maybe someone can turn pieces of this into something more useful): It is true that Red Hat, the company, primarily supports businesses as opposed to individual home users. This is how they make money, but they also contribute a lot of time and manpower to the Fedora Project, which is a Linux distribution intended for people like you. While it is still Linux, and it may require a learning curve, Fedora is under constant heavy development by thousands of people who are eager for your comments. These people form a community that is growing every day, from expert computer programmers and systems engineers all the way to brand new users. The editor of Red Hat Magazine is a member of the Fedora community and forwarded your letter to the Fedora Documentation group, whose mission is to provide professional quality, yet easy to read, tutorials and guides for people just like you. They are very interested in your input as a home user who is not a Linux guru. They, along with other Fedora groups, are developing a Fedora Mentoring program that would help new community members learn how to use Fedora. If you would like to learn from other Fedora community members, visit the Mentoring web site at: = = = = = Is this useful? After all, mentoring doesn't have to be just expert-to-expert. In my job, I taught Linux to thousands of law enforcement and intelligence community professionals who weren't computer experts by trade. Most of them are still using it to some extent today, and many embraced it. (A few even switched to it!) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 17:59:29 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:59:29 -0400 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 12:01 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > > > How should the files live? In the same directory as the other XML, just > > with a country code identifier? > > Yes. Side-by-side. foo-en.xml and foo-de.xml will make life easier. > > On the other hand, in-line translation also works. Each paragraph > gets an attribute (it already defaults to "en" IIRC). The translated > paragraphs can be placed under the "en" paragraph with a "de" > attribute, or whatever. Then, we start up the xmlto setting the > desired language. Personally, I like this method best. > > Haven't done either approach very much, but these are common > suggested approaches. TCF, what is your take? Just my $0.02 -- I think this is the best solution also technically, but the only thing I would be worried about is contributors who inadvertently screw up translated sections (errant keystrokes, etc.) and don't know that they've done so since they can't read the text. Does this approach gain us enough to balance out that risk? Otherwise, I think it's a super idea. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 18:01:03 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:31:03 +0530 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <1124906216.7693.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <430CA8F1.6000908@n-man.com> <1124906216.7693.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <430CB5DF.1040402@redhat.com> Hi >= = = = = >Is this useful? After all, mentoring doesn't have to be just >expert-to-expert. In my job, I taught Linux to thousands of law >enforcement and intelligence community professionals who weren't >computer experts by trade. Most of them are still using it to some >extent today, and many embraced it. (A few even switched to it!) > > I am willing to participate in any such efforts provided it isnt too much of a time drain for me. It would certainly help me better understand what new users would want or need in baby steps regards Rahul From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Wed Aug 24 18:04:26 2005 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:04:26 -0500 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1124906666.b694d7928ea3b@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting Greg DeKoenigsberg : > This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona. She sent in a > letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that makes me weep inside. > > What do we have to say to her? > > --g No, but it would have been nice not to have published her email address into a public mailing list... Now she can add additional spam to her list of problems switching to linux has caused... -- Eric Rostetter From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 18:05:51 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:05:51 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430CB368.9060207@gmail.com> References: <430CB368.9060207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124906751.7693.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 18:50 +0100, Andrew Hudson wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona. She sent in a > > letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that makes me weep inside. > > > > What do we have to say to her? > > > > --g > > > > > Dear Red Hat, I hope you will get this e-mail. I am a single user > > computer person. I put yes down - so I could receive your e-mails. > > To tell you the truth I do not know why. Your main emphasis seems to > > be on business. I switched from Windows because I thought it would > > be safer and healthier all the way round. To tell you the truth I > > feel totally lost in your system. I cannot use my CDs that have > > games. I downloaded a game I had paid for. No way could I get it to > > work. I wrote to Linux Game. Their directions were like Greek, and > > I only speak English. I tried to download the anti-virus I use. > > They have a version for Linux. No way did I get that. I looked > > into your training, but that is extremely costly. I have bought > > books. It all come s down to the fact There is little I am able to > > do with Linux. Mostly I would like to have a plug-in that works, as > > to the fact there are many things I am unable to open, including some > > mail, because I can find no way to do it. Dear Red Hat - what are > > you doing for us little people out here? I am no further today than > > I was the day this was installed. Thank you, Judy D. > > > > Greg, > > I feel your pain on this one - here is someone who has heard all of the > good things about Linux and Fedora but cannot translate what she has > heard into a useable system for her. > > As Jeff mentioned, he feels that he is in the 1% tail of geekdom which > will never be able to translate the tech speak into everyday terms. > > Why don't we take this opportunity to ask Judy/Sue/whoever about the > barriers that she actually came up against - did she go to Google and be > over-run with the many countless options available? > > One of the things people enjoy is belonging - if we could convince > Judy/Sue and perhaps a couple of other total newbies to 'reality check' > documentation such as the installation guide then that would be worth a > fortune to Fedora and the FDP. Emphasise that this is important to us - > it's obviously important to Judy/Sue to succeed in Linux! I posted to f-docs-l with some suggestion about how to leverage this into the Mentoring program but I guess the reply has gone out already... I may contact her directly with an offer of help. Although that doesn't solve the problem, it gets us in touch with someone who can help us (Docs team) understand what people want first, second, etc. > I'm going to suggest a moving to Fedora from Windows FAQ for absolute > newbies, but I'm going to do this on the docs-list. This is not a bad idea, and I think this should be more than just a list of program equivalencies. It would involve explaining what people see, from boot to use case, that differs, and gives them the information they need to understand the critical differences. (Note that this is not the same as, "explain everything about what they see and why it's different. Normal users don't care, they just want to know where to click to make things work.) From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 18:11:55 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:11:55 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430CB5DF.1040402@redhat.com> References: <430CA8F1.6000908@n-man.com> <1124906216.7693.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430CB5DF.1040402@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124907115.7693.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 23:31 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >Is this useful? After all, mentoring doesn't have to be just > >expert-to-expert. In my job, I taught Linux to thousands of law > >enforcement and intelligence community professionals who weren't > >computer experts by trade. Most of them are still using it to some > >extent today, and many embraced it. (A few even switched to it!) > > > I am willing to participate in any such efforts provided it isnt too > much of a time drain for me. It would certainly help me better > understand what new users would want or need in baby steps To be honest Rahul, mentoring users, especially very new ones, is a *HUGE* time (and patience) drain. If you can't devote a lot of both to it, you're best off devoting your considerable (!) energies elsewhere. :-) Besides, you're already providing FedoraNews, monitoring all the mailing lists, IRC, etc. I would think the best way for you to help, with the visibility you have, is to encourage Fedora community members who are not super-involved but want to help new people like Judy/Sue. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From webmanagement at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 18:05:28 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andrew Hudson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:05:28 +0100 Subject: RFC - Moving to Fedora from Windows Message-ID: <430CB6E8.6090209@gmail.com> Hi everyone, Having read with a heavy heart the post from Greg concerning a newbie experience with Fedora, I kinda figured that what we need is an orientation document for new users (ie new to Linux) to pick up when they come to Fedora. Brief outline below: Welcome to Fedora Core Linux Linux concepts (ie root etc) First impressions Gnome - where do I find? Screensaver, desktop background etc Email - What's this Evolution thing? (potential to include Thunderbird here because of availabilty on Windows) Internet - Finding the web Productivity - Finding OpenOffice.org, brief intro to each component IM - Where's AIM or Windows Messenger? Moving Further Games - getting your Windows games working under Fedora Getting support for your graphics card/Installing appropriate drivers This is just a starting point - feel free to shout down or include any other areas that you feel would be genuinely advantageous for a newbie to read about when they first boot into Fedora. Thanks, Andy From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 18:36:43 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:36:43 -0400 Subject: RFC - Moving to Fedora from Windows In-Reply-To: <430CB6E8.6090209@gmail.com> References: <430CB6E8.6090209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124908603.7693.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 19:05 +0100, Andrew Hudson wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Having read with a heavy heart the post from Greg concerning a newbie > experience with Fedora, I kinda figured that what we need is an > orientation document for new users (ie new to Linux) to pick up when > they come to Fedora. > > Brief outline below: > > Welcome to Fedora Core Linux > Linux concepts (ie root etc) > First impressions > Gnome - where do I find? Screensaver, desktop background etc > Email - What's this Evolution thing? (potential to include > Thunderbird here because of availabilty on Windows) > Internet - Finding the web > Productivity - Finding OpenOffice.org, brief intro to each component > IM - Where's AIM or Windows Messenger? > Moving Further > Games - getting your Windows games working under Fedora > Getting support for your graphics card/Installing appropriate drivers > > This is just a starting point - feel free to shout down or include any > other areas that you feel would be genuinely advantageous for a newbie > to read about when they first boot into Fedora. Andrew, I threw this on the wiki: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Drafts/GettingStartedGuide As per the FDSCo meeting yesterday, we might as well think of this as a good test case. Hope I'm not inducing any cringe.... -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Aug 24 18:57:18 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:57:18 -0500 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <1124905264.10409.212.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124905264.10409.212.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050824135718.52e7e53a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > Do you mean, translations inline within the same XML file? Same same. Perzactly. I am an idiot. Ich bin ein dumbkoff le nulles, moi or whatever. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Aug 24 18:58:34 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:58:34 -0500 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > Just my $0.02 -- I think this is the best solution also technically, but > the only thing I would be worried about is contributors who > inadvertently screw up translated sections (errant keystrokes, etc.) and > don't know that they've done so since they can't read the text. Does > this approach gain us enough to balance out that risk? Otherwise, I > think it's a super idea. I think the "who touches last owns" rule applies. You break the build, you fix the build. Anyway, we've got CVS backup for the diffs. Cheers! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 19:31:56 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:31:56 -0400 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 13:58 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > Just my $0.02 -- I think this is the best solution also technically, but > > the only thing I would be worried about is contributors who > > inadvertently screw up translated sections (errant keystrokes, etc.) and > > don't know that they've done so since they can't read the text. Does > > this approach gain us enough to balance out that risk? Otherwise, I > > think it's a super idea. > > I think the "who touches last owns" rule applies. You break the > build, you fix the build. Anyway, we've got CVS backup for the > diffs. Yeah, I figured as much. I can live with that if everyone else can. ;-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 20:41:45 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:41:45 -0700 Subject: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "DocsProject/Drafts/GettingStartedGuide" by PaulFrields In-Reply-To: <20050824183724.15732.31562@fedora.linux.duke.edu> References: <20050824183724.15732.31562@fedora.linux.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1124916105.10409.237.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 18:37 +0000, fedorawiki-noreply at fedoraproject.org wrote: > Dear Wiki user, > > You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on "Fedora Project Wiki" for change notification. > > The following page has been changed by PaulFrields: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Drafts/GettingStartedGuide To follow the ideas posted here yesterday under "Wiki musings", this should be Docs/Drafts/GettingStartedGuide/. You can use the More Actions (menu) > Rename for this. I'll leave that as an exercise for you all, to get more Wiki familiar. I need to write up Docs/Drafts/WritingInTheWiki or somesuch, eh? :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Wed Aug 24 20:55:56 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:55:56 +0100 Subject: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "DocsProject/Drafts/GettingStartedGuide" by PaulFrields In-Reply-To: <1124916105.10409.237.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20050824183724.15732.31562@fedora.linux.duke.edu> <1124916105.10409.237.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124916956.3040.5.camel@Vigor10> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 13:41 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 18:37 +0000, fedorawiki-noreply at fedoraproject.org > wrote: > > Dear Wiki user, > > > > You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on "Fedora Project Wiki" for change notification. > > > > The following page has been changed by PaulFrields: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Drafts/GettingStartedGuide > > To follow the ideas posted here yesterday under "Wiki musings", this > should be Docs/Drafts/GettingStartedGuide/. Should it be Docs/Drafts/DraftGettingStartedGuide ? -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 22:22:40 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:22:40 -0700 Subject: Docs-Common In-Reply-To: <430BDEB2.4000809@gmail.com> References: <430BDEB2.4000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124922160.10409.256.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 03:42 +0100, Andrew Hudson wrote: > Hey... > > Just spent ten minutes grappling with this - don't you think it would be > a good idea to update the documentation guide with the new CVS location > (docs-common) for the DTDs and Stylesheets etc? > > It's still pointing to fedora-docs... It needs more than that for updates: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocumentationGuide Yeah, it's gotten quite old. Perhaps we need a "Carpenter, Fix Thy Roof" week and get the Doc Guide moved along. We got this Band-Aid(TM) applied for now. Thanks much for the catch. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 22:31:05 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:31:05 -0700 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <1124894761.3227.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> <1124888160.3227.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430C6FD0.7040401@redhat.com> <1124890873.3227.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430C7B4D.1030502@redhat.com> <1124894761.3227.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124922666.10409.261.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 10:46 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Nevertheless, here's the upshot, that DocBook XML lets us easily grab >
modules and drop them from one doc into another. As D-BUS and > a few other enabling technologies change the interaction that a "normal" > user has with the system, sections can migrate from an Admin Guide to a > User Guide easily. Importantly, because s are done against ID attributes, the link follows the
moving. However, this means we *must* have unique IDs at least within a particular series of books, if not across the entire doc-set. We probably won't have many duplicates, but it happens especially when the same writer has been making up IDs for days on end. :) > If running a specific tool requires the administrator password, a > managed user (again "managed user" means "user in the workplace who > doesn't necessarily have root") is not going to have access to it. > Telling that person how to do something she is not allowed to do causes > more aggregate frustration than telling readers "refer to the Admin > Guide for information on how to do XYZ." > > Again, cross-referencing solves the problem for home users and other > people who own their system. If the developers make a mistake in > deciding to keep a user from making a perfectly reasonable system > setting change, it has a far-reaching impact. And if the control tools > for changes a user *can* make are organized wrong, the system is harder > to use. That's Havoc's point. But using the root password as a > dividing line for where to document a tool is still reasonable, since it > follows the generally accepted methods of technical documentation. +1 This is a good way to split. If root is required, it's in the Admin Guide. If not, it's in the Desktop User Guide. BTW, that's my solution for the different names. :) DUG is a nice TLA. ~ Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 23:01:40 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:01:40 -0700 Subject: Wiki musings In-Reply-To: <1124887245.3227.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124871416.5253.40.camel@littlePiet> <1124884885.3227.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124885831.5253.44.camel@littlePiet> <1124887245.3227.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124924500.10409.270.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 08:40 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 14:17 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > Am Mittwoch, den 24.08.2005, 08:01 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: > > > > Maybe I missunderstand that, but wouldn't it be preferrable to have one > > > > integrated table with all content, marked as doc/draft/wiki in one > > > > column to provide an easy overview and orientation for the user? For the > > > > detail view you can easily organize it in a /doc /doc/draft/ ... > > > > structure to fulfill the technical needs of the infrastructure. > > > > > > The problem I see with that approach is that with Drafts, we probably > > > want to *discourage* users who are casually browsing the Wiki from > > > gleaning incorrect guidance. If they can read a table full of all the > > > docs at once, many of them will ignore admonitions and read draft docs > > > with an unwarranted level of confidence. > > > > That may be a problem, indeed. Perhaps it helps to use different colors > > for the row background (which may destroy the web design), or to use two > > or three separate tables? > > Neither of those would address the problem of discouraging the casual > browsing. They would merely be another kind of admonition. IMHO the > tables should be on different pages, with the table of published docs > being prominent and the table of drafts... well, somewhere *less* > so. :-) However, we miss potential contributors if we deliberately hide the drafts. Instead, think of going to download.fedora/fc/ and seeing these choices: core/ updates/ rawhide/ If you choose something called rawhide/, that's what you get. We can only go so far in protecting people from themselves before we start to serve less good because of all the protective measures. The table with different columns for complete and draft might be a good way to do this. Or two lists, above and below each other, with the finished on the top, and the drafts on the bottom. Also, this page needs to be manually populated, right? Just creating Docs/Drafts/Foo doesn't need to put it in the table of choices. When something is ready, as per the editor discretion, it is added to the list of drafts on Docs/. People wandering the Wiki will find pages in Docs/Drafts/ marked with lots of "TIGERS BE HERE". At that point, we have done what we can. If they want to jump off the cliff to test their new wings, so be it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 23:30:41 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:30:41 -0400 Subject: Fedora DTD? In-Reply-To: <1124841801.3226.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200508231158.43894.admin@buddhalinux.com> <20050823170933.bdb76c4b.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <200508231848.49124.admin@buddhalinux.com> <1124841801.3226.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <430D0321.7000400@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:48 -0500, Thomas Jones wrote: > >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>Hash: SHA1 >> >>On Tuesday 23 August 2005 17:09, Tommy Reynolds wrote: >> >>>Uttered Thomas Jones , spake thus: >>> >>>>I have quickly built up a DTD Driver for the Docbook 4.2 release. This >>>>driver contains declarations for Fedora Core specific documentation. >>> >>>I am not in favor of this subsetting (even if it's a proper subset) >>>approach. What we have is already rigorously documented in several >>>books at Borders, Barnes & Noble, Books-A-Million, Amazon, et. al., >>>hope I didn't leave out your favorite; if I'd remembered it I would >>>have plugged it. >>> >> >>Very good point. That definitely would be a disadvantage. >>You got my favorite. ;) >> >> >>>An "approved subset" would be yet another learning level for newbies. >>>I'd much rather see our current Documentation Guide fully-fleshed out >>>with recommended (or at least tested) examples for the >>>monkey-see-monkey-document crowd. No slur intended, but it's really >>>much easier to bang out a DocBook document with minimal learning >>>curve by just looking at an example of what you want to do; no >>>"internalized learning" required. >>> >> >>Actually, being a subset and not a superset; there is less that a end-user >>would need to learn. I'd have to agree with Thomas and say that fewer elements simplifies the learning curve, rather than complicating it. For example, if a new author has a setup whereby the menu of valid tags at cursor point shows up in her editor, she's less likely to feel overwhelmed by the sheer number of tags from which to choose. Here's a visual example of what I'm talking about: http://linux.duke.edu/~mark/psgmlx/doc/blue-screenshot.html In my experience, writers do feel intimidated by the sheer size of DocBook (~300 elements), some choose Simplified DocBook (~100 elements) for this very reason. IMO, it'd be easier for an author to have a smaller number of tags available, rather than having to look up in the docs guide which tags are recommended. Simply eliminate those that aren't used. FWIW, subsetting DocBook is a very common ocurrence, and for good reason: most projects simply don't need all those elements. Also, maintaining a subsetted DocBook dtd adds no effort to the project - it's usually trivial to migrate the subsetted dtd to a newer version. OTOH, extra effort would be required in that someone would need to package the subsetted dtd. But that's about all. I honestly (I'm being sincere here) don't understand the objections to reducing the number of tags the authors would have to deal with. But, like Thomas, I'm looking at this from a slightly different perspective. >> >>Take for instance the following elements: >>sidebar >>synopsis >>bridgehead >>dedication >>sect[1-5] >> >>Are any of these, needed? I hadn't realized it but somewhere in the wiki ---- >>I don't remember where --- it is stated not to utilize the sect elements. It >>just so happens that as a habit/preference I don't use these elements >>anyways. However without a correct document model, all instances derived >>thusly can and may be utilizing irrelevant, unneeded, or unwanted >>content simply because they are a part of the original xml markup language. >> >>As one of the editors once stated offlist, I am one of the seemingly few >>people who likes XML Markup. So I tend to see the project from another angle. >>Whether that's good or bad I am not sure yet. I agree here, too. My perspective is from a different angle. > > > Just because an element's not listed doesn't mean we don't use it. The > guidance was created to make docs more modular, and it has > proven worthwhile several times for me personally. The ease of > transmuting docs received with just using some simple sed lines > means no one has to break a sweat even if a writer uses that element. > For any elements that need special guidance for FDP, that's what the > Documentation Guide is for. I would counter (politely, of course:) this argument by claiming that eliminating unused elements makes the problem go away. poof. > I'm with Tommy on this one; defining this (a) takes energy away from > docs and puts it toward unnecessary process, This statement assumes that, say, Thomas (& others possibly involved in the dtd project) would be otherwise working on something else. It's not clear to me that this is necessarily the case. Maybe the dtd folks only wanna work on dtds... OTOH, deciding on precisely which subset is to be the official fdp dtd would require some effort from those outside the dtd project. In that sense the project would indeed take energy away from other parts of the project. > and (b) creates a need for > additional documentation when DocBook is already covered. I don't understand how making DocBook simpler (i.e. smaller) creates a need for additional documentation. Seems to me that the notion that the writers can use *every* tag available simplifies the documentation needs. IOW, it eliminates the need for "don't use these tags...". > If we had > hundreds of volunteer doc monkeys typing away, I would say go for it, > but when we're still trying to put together the basis, it's probably not > time for this. I'm actually neutral on this general argument/discussion, (despite my above comments), but I would like to say that if someone (i.e. Thomas) is willing to take this on, it might lessen the learning curve a bit for new authors. (whoops. /me already said this) > But it's worth keeping in mind for some future time when > those armies of doc monkeys *do* show up... :-) And when they do, they'll no doubt be flying... :-) Cheers, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 23:52:12 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:52:12 -0700 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124927532.10409.273.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 03:11 +0100, Andrew Hudson wrote: > Looking at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocIdeas I quite > like the look of the Fedora User Guide - this could be a crucial > document to help new users ease their way into Fedora & Linux in > general. I would see it as being written in a conversational style > rather than a straight 'here are the facts in a particular order'. You're definitely on the right track. Personally, I'm going to be very picky about how a conversational style is done. Comes across like Bill Bryson, that I can take. IMO, this is a style that is harder to get right than wrong. Harder than a neutral style. Harder to collaborate on. It's an interesting topic to discuss. Product documentation usually takes a neutral tone. I like how this neutral style gets out of the user's way and focuses on the software. Books need to appeal to readers to attract them, i.e., they don't have the advantage of being bundled with the software. They are written to target a group of readers. The Fedora Desktop User Guide (my suggestion for a working title) would be the most likely location to take a conversational style. Perhaps a test bed? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 23:52:54 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:52:54 -0400 Subject: Fedora User Guide In-Reply-To: <1124922666.10409.261.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <430BD74D.3010003@gmail.com> <430C03B4.709@redhat.com> <1124888160.3227.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430C6FD0.7040401@redhat.com> <1124890873.3227.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430C7B4D.1030502@redhat.com> <1124894761.3227.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124922666.10409.261.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124927574.3341.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 15:31 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > BTW, that's my solution for the different names. :) DUG is a nice TLA. Much better than FUG. Being fugly was always bad, at least when I was in school. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 23:58:39 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:58:39 -0400 Subject: Docs-Common In-Reply-To: <1124922160.10409.256.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <430BDEB2.4000809@gmail.com> <1124922160.10409.256.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124927919.3341.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 15:22 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 03:42 +0100, Andrew Hudson wrote: > > Hey... > > > > Just spent ten minutes grappling with this - don't you think it would be > > a good idea to update the documentation guide with the new CVS location > > (docs-common) for the DTDs and Stylesheets etc? > > > > It's still pointing to fedora-docs... > > It needs more than that for updates: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocumentationGuide > > Yeah, it's gotten quite old. Perhaps we need a "Carpenter, Fix Thy > Roof" week and get the Doc Guide moved along. > > We got this Band-Aid(TM) applied for now. Thanks much for the catch. Yes, this is my fault... unfortunately the last month for me ended up much busier than I intended, and has left me less time for volunteer work than I thought. I will be back on track by the middle of next month. If the community can make do with what's there until then, I will probably be doing some drafting while I'm lounging around on vacation in a few weeks, with the results up when I get back. (I may not have Internet access that week, but frankly, that gives me time to do my normal "revise myself thrice" silently.) :-) With the DUG and GSG getting underway, it seems to me that there's plenty of other work to keep everyone busy until then. Process is well documented on the Wiki in the meantime. I am hell-bent on doing this work, I just need to get my head above water. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 00:04:37 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:04:37 -0400 Subject: Fedora DTD? In-Reply-To: <430D0321.7000400@redhat.com> References: <200508231158.43894.admin@buddhalinux.com> <20050823170933.bdb76c4b.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <200508231848.49124.admin@buddhalinux.com> <1124841801.3226.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430D0321.7000400@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124928278.3341.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 19:30 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: > I'm actually neutral on this general argument/discussion, (despite my > above comments), but I would like to say that if someone (i.e. Thomas) > is willing to take this on, it might lessen the learning curve a bit for > new authors. (whoops. /me already said this) Almost no one wants the learning curve of DocBook XML anyway, which is why all the talk about Wiki has been dominating the list of late. Most people seem to do their drafts in HTML, and now that OO.o is a possibility, I suspect many people will make use of that as well. Those of us using Emacs (or vi) with XML facilities are probably a minority at this point, so this is probably all moot. I'd bet that using a subset is going to inconvenience as many people as it would help. This is not to say the idea has no merit, more that the ship has sailed... -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 00:08:23 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:08:23 -0400 Subject: Wiki musings In-Reply-To: <1124924500.10409.270.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124843162.10409.134.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124871416.5253.40.camel@littlePiet> <1124884885.3227.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124885831.5253.44.camel@littlePiet> <1124887245.3227.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124924500.10409.270.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124928503.3341.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 16:01 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > That may be a problem, indeed. Perhaps it helps to use different colors > > > for the row background (which may destroy the web design), or to use two > > > or three separate tables? > > > > Neither of those would address the problem of discouraging the casual > > browsing. They would merely be another kind of admonition. IMHO the > > tables should be on different pages, with the table of published docs > > being prominent and the table of drafts... well, somewhere *less* > > so. :-) > > However, we miss potential contributors if we deliberately hide the > drafts. That's a good point. > Instead, think of going to download.fedora/fc/ and seeing these > choices: > > core/ > updates/ > rawhide/ > > If you choose something called rawhide/, that's what you get. > > We can only go so far in protecting people from themselves before we > start to serve less good because of all the protective measures. Shame on me! I usually try to quash this tendency. > The table with different columns for complete and draft might be a good > way to do this. Or two lists, above and below each other, with the > finished on the top, and the drafts on the bottom. > > Also, this page needs to be manually populated, right? Just creating > Docs/Drafts/Foo doesn't need to put it in the table of choices. When > something is ready, as per the editor discretion, it is added to the > list of drafts on Docs/. > > People wandering the Wiki will find pages in Docs/Drafts/ marked with > lots of "TIGERS BE HERE". At that point, we have done what we can. If > they want to jump off the cliff to test their new wings, so be it. I put sample admonitions on the pages I created earlier... those seem to be plenty of warning to me. (Anyone is welcome to sanitize them if desired.) I yield! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 00:29:32 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:29:32 -0400 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124840828.10409.105.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124838226.5253.12.camel@littlePiet> <1124840828.10409.105.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <430D10EC.3020908@redhat.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 01:03 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > >>Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 17:56 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: >> >>>* Since docs are not absolutely necessary to run a system, Extras seems >>>like the right place to me. >> >>Hm, if there is a lack of documentation you can't use a lot of systems. >>Obviously many people can use Fedora despite of a current lack of >>documentation (as we see from FC1 to FC4 :-) ), nevertheless I would >>vote to have the documentation in the core package (at least in the long >>run). > > > Viscerally, I agree. However, size is a problem we have to deal with, > and end-user docs with lots of screenshots are big. And we do hope to > have translations of most of the important ones, so then everyone wants > those included. > > For the record, application documentation that comes in the package and > usually ends up in /usr/share/doc/ is not part of this discussion. We > don't own or affect that content, at least, not directly. > > >>Perhaps it is possibly to differ between several documents. >> >>- User guide (if we would have it), yum guide, release notes, etc. >> part of core > > > I could see rallying for this, if the package was small. The relnotes > exist, and have grown with a screenshot and more text recently, and a > general Fedora Desktop User Guide that had many good bits within would > be quite useful. > > Unfortunately, those who need such docs are usually the ones who need > more screenshots than CLI usage, and thus the size of the docs grows > hugely. > > >>- program related guides bundled with the program (e.g. Samba >> guide in the Samba devision), either in core of extra, depends >> on the programs location > > > We would have a harder time arguing for Samba docs to be available in > Core just because Samba was. I think these are perfect for Extras. Despite where they live, the docs packages could simply follow the debian docs package naming policy: Documentation for package foo is in the package foo-doc Doing it this way eliminates the need for coordination with upstream. >>>* I would like the /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html file (which is part of >>>fedora-release, and comes up when people launch Firefox) to show a SHORT >>>and informative menu on how to: >>> >>> * Read the release notes >>> * Install and update software, in particular Fedora docs >>> (i.e. "yum install fedora-docs\*" plus link to Stuart's yum doc) >>> * Access fedoraproject.org, especially the Wiki >>> * Get involved in Fedora (probably also through fp.org) Debian systems have a very nice setup for the /usr/share/doc/index.html (produced by the dhelp package and which shows up via apache as http://localhost/doc/HTML/index.html) as well as a number of cgi-based packages that allow access to all the docs that are registered (via packager tools) in the doc system. The dhelp system looks like this (on some random machines): http://www.sosst.sk/doc/HTML http://nestor.wlu.ca/doc/HTML DHelp Homepage: http://www.fifi.org/doc/HTML/ There's also the cgi-based "dwww" package (more random servers): http://darbujan.fzu.cz/dwww/ http://borg.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/dwww/ Which is much more powerful - check out the links (my apologies to the server admins:-) And finally, the "doc-central" package (more apologies): http://epoxy.mrs.umn.edu/dc/ http://gregscomputerservice.com/dc/ which is also cgi-based and quite nice. I dunno if such developer & user tools exist for fedora system, but they'd be very nice additions. (wishful thinking here) I'd also like to second Dave Malcolm's suggestion about packaging the xml sources so they register in both gnome & kde help systems. (Caveat, I know how the yelp system works in this regard, but am completely ignorant of the kde doc/help registration.) I do know that it's not at all difficult to package xml source files so that they show up in yelp. My $0.02... Cheers, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From noriko at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 01:03:13 2005 From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:03:13 +1000 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> Hi docs team I am coming from fedora-trans-list, Japanese translator, Noriko Mizumoto. I am so excited hearing the news that docs team is preparing to host translation. I would like to say thank you, and am looking for something that I can help. Please let me know if it is recommended to make self introduction as translator, I am most happy to do so. To me it would be nice if translators can work on po files similar to fedora software modules we are currently working, since this must be one of safe way to minimize translator from messing up tags. However this might be required more time of your side, I guess. When the format will go with inline, the file can only be translated by one translator at the time and other translators have to wait for her/his turn, if my understanding is correct. Then it seems that this is not practical for release notes which has strictly limited time-frame for both docs and trans. Addition to this, CJK (aka chinese, japanese and korean) may have more convertion problem sometime apart from their translation. If we can have separate files for each lang, it will be easier to fix this kind of problem. I am an idiot. Ich bin ein dumbkoff le nulles, moi ??????? Thanks for listening Noriko Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 13:58 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > >>Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: >> >> >>>Just my $0.02 -- I think this is the best solution also technically, but >>>the only thing I would be worried about is contributors who >>>inadvertently screw up translated sections (errant keystrokes, etc.) and >>>don't know that they've done so since they can't read the text. Does >>>this approach gain us enough to balance out that risk? Otherwise, I >>>think it's a super idea. >> >>I think the "who touches last owns" rule applies. You break the >>build, you fix the build. Anyway, we've got CVS backup for the >>diffs. > > > Yeah, I figured as much. I can live with that if everyone else can. ;-) > > From admin at buddhalinux.com Thu Aug 25 01:25:40 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:25:40 -0500 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <430D10EC.3020908@redhat.com> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124840828.10409.105.camel@erato.phig.org> <430D10EC.3020908@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200508242025.42120.admin@buddhalinux.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 24 August 2005 19:29, Mark Johnson wrote: > I'd also like to second Dave Malcolm's suggestion about packaging the > xml sources so they register in both gnome & kde help systems. (Caveat, > I know how the yelp system works in this regard, but am completely > ignorant of the kde doc/help registration.) I do know that it's not at > all difficult to package xml source files so that they show up in yelp. > Introduction of content into the kde help center application is awkward at best. The entire kde docbook sources are all located in ${kdedir}/share/doc/HTML/en. Within the root folder of each application are the docbook source, a cache of the generated presentation files and a symbolic link to the global files for all kde documentation --- aptly named "common". This is the default location for the content presented by the khelpcenter application. The only difficulty I had in the whole process is generating the cache file. Admittedly, I had a heck of a time figuring this one out --- even with the help of google. HINT-HINT: Utilize the meinproc binary with the --cache option. ;) Introduction of the content(naming scheme, icon, etc..) into the tree view of the khelpcenter application is performed via a .desktop file located in the proper directory. If you do not choose to place the documentation in the ${kdedir}/share/doc/HTML/en; then a .desktop configuration file must be used to tell the application where the actual content is housed - --- /usr/share/doc/packages maybe. Then at any time a user can access the new content from the khelpcenter application, through either the konqueror web browser, or via the konqueror file management interface. All three avenues can be quickly navigated via the "help" kioslave. That's kde --- gnome --- you got me! ;) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDDR4UoR5cE1e/kEIRAsGFAJ4xYelK7I39LYWJ1Zys81FlgWH3CgCeKUqA g3DtPBa0UJ+ibzAyVF40wfs= =vxSx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bbbush.yuan at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 01:24:08 2005 From: bbbush.yuan at gmail.com (Yuan Yijun) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:24:08 +0800 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> Message-ID: <76e72f8005082418246c643371@mail.gmail.com> 2005/8/25, Noriko Mizumoto : > Hi docs team > > Addition to this, CJK (aka chinese, japanese and korean) may have more > convertion problem sometime apart from their translation. If we can have > separate files for each lang, it will be easier to fix this kind of problem. > agreed. If you are using fedora then you have a common encoding UTF-8, no convertion is made or needed. But someone uses windows... I prefer po and we have cvs repositories to store po files. Then we can just commit the xml files, as long as the tools that fedora-docs promised are good enough (e.g. if I changed po slightly, the result xml/HTML should not change tooo much). -- bbbush ^_^ From stuart at elsn.org Thu Aug 25 01:55:49 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 02:55:49 +0100 Subject: RFC - Moving to Fedora from Windows In-Reply-To: <1124908603.7693.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <430CB6E8.6090209@gmail.com> <1124908603.7693.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124934950.3040.80.camel@Vigor10> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 14:36 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Andrew, > > I threw this on the wiki: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Drafts/GettingStartedGuide > > As per the FDSCo meeting yesterday, we might as well think of this as a > good test case. Hope I'm not inducing any cringe.... I've now added a couple of bits to this. In order to avoid the docs overlapping I've also added skeleton documents for the Desktop User Guide and the Administration Guide, and put scope "Summaries" on each. These scopes hopefully reflect the general consensus so far, and make the docs mesh together reasonably well. The skeleton ToCs are just rough topic lists, with elements borrowed from Peter Boy's mail earlier this week. They help make the pages look interesting if nothing else :). http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/ -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From andrewm at inventa.ru Thu Aug 25 08:07:27 2005 From: andrewm at inventa.ru (Andrew Martynov) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:07:27 +0400 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <76e72f8005082418246c643371@mail.gmail.com> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> <76e72f8005082418246c643371@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050825080727.GA16632@mk61.inventa.ru> Hello, I have prepared translation of FC4 Rel Notes into Russian. And I saw that .po based translation does not works well because some translations are context dependent. The second reason for pure XML translation: currently I can not successfully convert FDP xml files into .pot and back without some works by hand. But XML translation requires some additional steps like FC translation project do: - pre commit check and XML validation - some locking to prevent race conditions for translators And one more question: how we will translate legal entities like copyright statements? Regards, Andrew Martynov Inventa Translator to Russian On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 09:24:08AM +0800, Yuan Yijun wrote: > 2005/8/25, Noriko Mizumoto : > > Hi docs team > > > > Addition to this, CJK (aka chinese, japanese and korean) may have more > > convertion problem sometime apart from their translation. If we can have > > separate files for each lang, it will be easier to fix this kind of problem. > > > > agreed. If you are using fedora then you have a common encoding UTF-8, > no convertion is made or needed. But someone uses windows... > > I prefer po and we have cvs repositories to store po files. Then we > can just commit the xml files, as long as the tools that fedora-docs > promised are good enough (e.g. if I changed po slightly, the result > xml/HTML should not change tooo much). > > -- > bbbush ^_^ > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From apbrar at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 08:35:00 2005 From: apbrar at gmail.com (Amanpreet Singh Brar) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:05:00 +0530 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <20050825080727.GA16632@mk61.inventa.ru> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> <76e72f8005082418246c643371@mail.gmail.com> <20050825080727.GA16632@mk61.inventa.ru> Message-ID: <430D82B4.8010806@gmail.com> Andrew Martynov wrote: >Hello, > >I have prepared translation of FC4 Rel Notes into Russian. > >And I saw that .po based translation does not works well because >some translations are context dependent. > >The second reason for pure XML translation: currently I can not >successfully convert FDP xml files into .pot and back without >some works by hand. > >But XML translation requires some additional steps like FC translation project do: >- pre commit check and XML validation >- some locking to prevent race conditions for translators > > > Andrew, Can u pls give some detailed procedure for Translation of Document, (actually what u did)? I want to start for My language regards AP Singh Brar Punjabi Translator >And one more question: how we will translate legal entities like copyright statements? > >Regards, >Andrew Martynov >Inventa >Translator to Russian > >On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 09:24:08AM +0800, Yuan Yijun wrote: > > >>2005/8/25, Noriko Mizumoto : >> >> >>>Hi docs team >>> >>>Addition to this, CJK (aka chinese, japanese and korean) may have more >>>convertion problem sometime apart from their translation. If we can have >>>separate files for each lang, it will be easier to fix this kind of problem. >>> >>> >>> >>agreed. If you are using fedora then you have a common encoding UTF-8, >>no convertion is made or needed. But someone uses windows... >> >>I prefer po and we have cvs repositories to store po files. Then we >>can just commit the xml files, as long as the tools that fedora-docs >>promised are good enough (e.g. if I changed po slightly, the result >>xml/HTML should not change tooo much). >> >>-- >>bbbush ^_^ >> >>-- >>fedora-docs-list mailing list >>fedora-docs-list at redhat.com >>To unsubscribe: >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list >> >> > > > From hoffmann at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 08:56:50 2005 From: hoffmann at redhat.com (William HOFFMANN) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:56:50 +0200 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <20050825085650.GA4711@william.paris.redhat.com> On Wed, Aug 24, 2005 at 12:01:50PM -0500 Tommy Reynolds wrote : > Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > > > How should the files live? In the same directory as the other XML, just > > with a country code identifier? > > Yes. Side-by-side. foo-en.xml and foo-de.xml will make life easier. With this naming convention we could perhaps use this : http://www.irule.be/bvh/c++/rosetta/ Does anyone tried this in "production" environment ? /W -- -------------------------------------------------------------- - William HOFFMANN +33 (0)1 41 91 23 21 - - - GLS Instructor RHCE RHCX - - - - http://people.redhat.com/~hoffmann - - - Red Hat France GnuPG ID : A2C85378 - -------------------------------------------------------------- From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Thu Aug 25 10:16:14 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:16:14 +0200 Subject: RFC - Moving to Fedora from Windows In-Reply-To: <1124934950.3040.80.camel@Vigor10> References: <430CB6E8.6090209@gmail.com> <1124908603.7693.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124934950.3040.80.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1124964974.5253.56.camel@littlePiet> Am Donnerstag, den 25.08.2005, 02:55 +0100 schrieb Stuart Ellis: > I've now added a couple of bits to this. > [...] > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/ Looks very good, I think, and makes the status of the draft docs very clear. Peter From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 11:53:59 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 07:53:59 -0400 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <430D10EC.3020908@redhat.com> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124838226.5253.12.camel@littlePiet> <1124840828.10409.105.camel@erato.phig.org> <430D10EC.3020908@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124970840.3408.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 20:29 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: > >>- program related guides bundled with the program (e.g. Samba > >> guide in the Samba devision), either in core of extra, depends > >> on the programs location > > > > We would have a harder time arguing for Samba docs to be available in > > Core just because Samba was. I think these are perfect for Extras. > > Despite where they live, the docs packages could simply follow the > debian docs package naming policy: > > Documentation for package foo is in the package foo-doc > > Doing it this way eliminates the need for coordination with upstream. Unfortunately it would create conflicts in the RPM database namespace, since some packages have their own -doc subpackages. I think sticking with fedora-docs-foo is probably a better idea for that reason alone. The "foo-doc" name would also create the illusion (given RPM namespace conventions) that the documentation was part of the original source and not a graft by FDP. > >>>* I would like the /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html file (which is part of > >>>fedora-release, and comes up when people launch Firefox) to show a SHORT > >>>and informative menu on how to: > >>> > >>> * Read the release notes > >>> * Install and update software, in particular Fedora docs > >>> (i.e. "yum install fedora-docs\*" plus link to Stuart's yum doc) > >>> * Access fedoraproject.org, especially the Wiki > >>> * Get involved in Fedora (probably also through fp.org) > > Debian systems have a very nice setup for the /usr/share/doc/index.html > (produced by the dhelp package and which shows up via apache as > http://localhost/doc/HTML/index.html) as well as a number of cgi-based > packages that allow access to all the docs that are registered (via > packager tools) in the doc system. We should be able to handle this in packaging as well, between manipulating the existing /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html (default browser page), scrollkeeper, and yelp. > I'd also like to second Dave Malcolm's suggestion about packaging the > xml sources so they register in both gnome & kde help systems. (Caveat, > I know how the yelp system works in this regard, but am completely > ignorant of the kde doc/help registration.) I do know that it's not at > all difficult to package xml source files so that they show up in yelp. > > My $0.02... I think that scrollkeeper is very much the same way; there should be a way to more or less wrap the existing XML sources in a OMF file for scrollkeeper. Then GNOME help will also register the files. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Aug 25 17:05:00 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:05:00 -0500 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <1124970840.3408.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124838226.5253.12.camel@littlePiet> <1124840828.10409.105.camel@erato.phig.org> <430D10EC.3020908@redhat.com> <1124970840.3408.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050825120500.aff21961.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > Unfortunately it would create conflicts in the RPM database namespace, > since some packages have their own -doc subpackages. I think sticking > with fedora-docs-foo is probably a better idea for that reason alone. To avoid filename bloat, I'd suggest just "fdp-foo.src.rpm" and so on. Surely FDP is enough of a namespace qualifier. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 17:48:14 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:48:14 -0400 Subject: Docs packaging In-Reply-To: <20050825120500.aff21961.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1124834171.3261.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124838226.5253.12.camel@littlePiet> <1124840828.10409.105.camel@erato.phig.org> <430D10EC.3020908@redhat.com> <1124970840.3408.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050825120500.aff21961.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1124992094.3408.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-08-25 at 12:05 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > Unfortunately it would create conflicts in the RPM database namespace, > > since some packages have their own -doc subpackages. I think sticking > > with fedora-docs-foo is probably a better idea for that reason alone. > > To avoid filename bloat, I'd suggest just "fdp-foo.src.rpm" and so on. > Surely FDP is enough of a namespace qualifier. The only reason I suggest the longer name is that existing Fedora-specific packages springing directly from the Project start with "fedora." Sticking with that convention, unless there's a good reason to deviate, would be helpful to some people who are tracking packages that spring directly from the project. Examples include fedora-release, fedora-rpmdevtools, and fedora-logos. Other than that, the name is pretty trivial, since most people will probably end up installing this through Anaconda, "yum group install," or some such tool that otherwise obscures the name. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From andrewm at inventa.ru Thu Aug 25 19:40:40 2005 From: andrewm at inventa.ru (Andrew Martynov) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:40:40 +0400 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <430D82B4.8010806@gmail.com> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> <76e72f8005082418246c643371@mail.gmail.com> <20050825080727.GA16632@mk61.inventa.ru> <430D82B4.8010806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050825194039.GA29607@mk61.inventa.ru> Hi, I have not currently exact procedure for translation yet. I tried to use some tools like xmlto/xml2pot/xml2po and so on, but finally I just downloaded lated version of ReLnotes from cvs and translate all neccessary files. I hope the process will be more formal and more automated soon. Regards, Andrew Martynov Inventa On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 02:05:00PM +0530, Amanpreet Singh Brar wrote: > Andrew Martynov wrote: > > >Hello, > > > >I have prepared translation of FC4 Rel Notes into Russian. > > > >And I saw that .po based translation does not works well because > >some translations are context dependent. > > > >The second reason for pure XML translation: currently I can not > >successfully convert FDP xml files into .pot and back without > >some works by hand. > > > >But XML translation requires some additional steps like FC translation > >project do: > >- pre commit check and XML validation > >- some locking to prevent race conditions for translators > > > > > > > Andrew, > Can u pls give some detailed procedure for Translation of Document, > (actually what u did)? > I want to start for My language > > regards > AP Singh Brar > Punjabi Translator > > >And one more question: how we will translate legal entities like copyright > >statements? > > > >Regards, > >Andrew Martynov > >Inventa > >Translator to Russian > > > >On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 09:24:08AM +0800, Yuan Yijun wrote: > > > > > >>2005/8/25, Noriko Mizumoto : > >> > >> > >>>Hi docs team > >>> > >>>Addition to this, CJK (aka chinese, japanese and korean) may have more > >>>convertion problem sometime apart from their translation. If we can have > >>>separate files for each lang, it will be easier to fix this kind of > >>>problem. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>agreed. If you are using fedora then you have a common encoding UTF-8, > >>no convertion is made or needed. But someone uses windows... > >> > >>I prefer po and we have cvs repositories to store po files. Then we > >>can just commit the xml files, as long as the tools that fedora-docs > >>promised are good enough (e.g. if I changed po slightly, the result > >>xml/HTML should not change tooo much). > >> > >>-- > >>bbbush ^_^ > >> > >>-- > >>fedora-docs-list mailing list > >>fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > >>To unsubscribe: > >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > >> > >> > > > > > > > From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 23:22:55 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:22:55 -0700 Subject: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "DocsProject/Drafts/GettingStartedGuide" by PaulFrields In-Reply-To: <1124916956.3040.5.camel@Vigor10> References: <20050824183724.15732.31562@fedora.linux.duke.edu> <1124916105.10409.237.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124916956.3040.5.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1125012175.5522.39.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 21:55 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > Should it be Docs/Drafts/DraftGettingStartedGuide ? I'm undecided, personally. It would help make it clear, but add some steps in the process. Any consensus? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 23:27:13 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:27:13 -0700 Subject: RFC - Moving to Fedora from Windows In-Reply-To: <430CB6E8.6090209@gmail.com> References: <430CB6E8.6090209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1125012433.5522.43.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 19:05 +0100, Andrew Hudson wrote: > Brief outline below: Take a look at this: http://www.iosn.net/training/end-user-manual/ This is based on FC1. Colin Charles wants to continue to own the overall writing project, if we want to use this as source material. It will need updating, but it gets us a bit further. Alternate is to steal^H^H^H^H^Hborrow ideas from this giant and do something from scratch-ish. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 23:31:51 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:31:51 -0700 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1125012711.5522.48.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-08-25 at 11:03 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > Hi docs team > > I am coming from fedora-trans-list, Japanese translator, Noriko > Mizumoto. I am so excited hearing the news that docs team is preparing > to host translation. I would like to say thank you, and am looking for > something that I can help. Please let me know if it is recommended to > make self introduction as translator, I am most happy to do so. That would be great to do. If you have done it already, you could just send us a link to that self-intro. > To me it would be nice if translators can work on po files similar to > fedora software modules we are currently working, since this must be one > of safe way to minimize translator from messing up tags. However this > might be required more time of your side, I guess. > > When the format will go with inline, the file can only be translated by > one translator at the time and other translators have to wait for > her/his turn, if my understanding is correct. > Then it seems that this is not practical for release notes which has > strictly limited time-frame for both docs and trans. Yes, this is how the RHEL documentation is translated, with separate XML files per language. Despite our geekish preference for translations all in one file, it is clear we need to make them separate files. foo-en.xml foo-it.xml foo-ru.xml foo-jp.xml ... Should we want to combine then in the future, I bet there is some way to do it in Perl.[1] - Karsten [1] Isn't this true of everything? -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 23:34:57 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:34:57 -0700 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <20050825080727.GA16632@mk61.inventa.ru> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> <76e72f8005082418246c643371@mail.gmail.com> <20050825080727.GA16632@mk61.inventa.ru> Message-ID: <1125012898.5522.52.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-08-25 at 12:07 +0400, Andrew Martynov wrote: > And one more question: how we will translate legal entities like copyright statements? Good question! Greg -- the last time we discussed this, the consensus was, we need to get each translation of the legalnotice vetted by someone Fedora can trust. I think the Red Hat translators could do this. They can ensure the integrity of the document. However, IANAL. We want this resolved for FC5, so ... can we get a legal ruling on this? /me goes to add to the FedoraLegalIssues page - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 23:43:33 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:43:33 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: AP Singh Brar In-Reply-To: <430BF0B3.7090701@gmail.com> References: <430BF0B3.7090701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1125013413.5522.55.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 09:29 +0530, Amanpreet Singh Brar wrote: > * Amanpreet Singh Brar Alamwalia Welcome. Thanks for introducing yourself. We look forward to working more closely with translation. I hope translators will help us to not write American/English idioms that are hard to translate. This is good practice for all of us. :) cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 23:45:31 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:45:31 -0700 Subject: Docs-Common In-Reply-To: <1124927919.3341.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <430BDEB2.4000809@gmail.com> <1124922160.10409.256.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124927919.3341.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1125013531.5522.58.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 19:58 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > With the DUG and GSG getting underway, it seems to me that there's > plenty of other work to keep everyone busy until then. Process is well > documented on the Wiki in the meantime. I am hell-bent on doing this > work, I just need to get my head above water. Great, just be sure to shout for help if you want/need it. The objective has been to have all the information a writer needs in the Doc Guide. Much of this is now on the Wiki, which has been a great place to scratch stuff up. We want to merge in those changes, and keep a continuous update of this canonical guide. We're writers, we like writing books. ;-) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mkim at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 23:46:24 2005 From: mkim at redhat.com (Michelle Ji Yeen Kim) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:46:24 +1000 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <1125012898.5522.52.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> <76e72f8005082418246c643371@mail.gmail.com> <20050825080727.GA16632@mk61.inventa.ru> <1125012898.5522.52.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <430E5850.1000800@redhat.com> Karsten Wade wrote: >On Thu, 2005-08-25 at 12:07 +0400, Andrew Martynov wrote: > > > >>And one more question: how we will translate legal entities like copyright statements? >> >> > >Good question! > >Greg -- the last time we discussed this, the consensus was, we need to >get each translation of the legalnotice vetted by someone Fedora can >trust. > >I think the Red Hat translators could do this. They can ensure the >integrity of the document. > > Good question, indeed! Red Hat translators are currently working on creating master compendium for fedora translation project. Until we put this compendium online, I believe it would be best not to translate any product names or legal entities until we clarify with legal department. We will keep you updated on the progress of the compendium in near future. Cheers, Michelle (Korean translator) >However, IANAL. We want this resolved for FC5, so ... can we get a >legal ruling on this? > >/me goes to add to the FedoraLegalIssues page > >- Karsten > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 23:56:27 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:56:27 -0700 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <1124906216.7693.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <430CA8F1.6000908@n-man.com> <1124906216.7693.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1125014187.5522.62.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 13:56 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > The editor of Red Hat Magazine is a member of the Fedora community and > forwarded your letter to the Fedora Documentation group, whose mission > is to provide professional quality, yet easy to read, tutorials and > guides for people just like you. They are very interested in your input > as a home user who is not a Linux guru. They, along with other Fedora > groups, are developing a Fedora Mentoring program that would help new > community members learn how to use Fedora. If you would like to learn > from other Fedora community members, visit the Mentoring web site at: How about this, too? "Would you be interested in being a test reader of new documentation? The documentation team is developing content focused on users just like yourself, and we need help to make it more useful. This is an essential part of the community process, we each help others in the way we best can. You reading and commenting on new user documentation is a wonderful contribution you can make, and you learn more about your Linux system in the process." I bet we will get some test readers when we announce draft docs. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From noriko at redhat.com Fri Aug 26 01:25:03 2005 From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:25:03 +1000 Subject: Self-Introduction: Noriko Mizumoto Message-ID: <430E6F6F.80601@redhat.com> Noriko Mizumoto Brisbane, Australia Translator_ja/Engineering Red Hat Asia-Pacific Goals; - Establish consolidated procedure linking docs and trans Historical Qualification; * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? Consultant, UK 2001 Trainer, HKG 2000 Call Centre Team Leader, AUS 1994-2000 * What level and type of computer skills do you have? Red Hat Certified Technician * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? Royal Life Saving Club Bronze Medallion (showing a bit of toughness :)) Writting/customization training manuals and some papers * What makes you an excellent match for the project? More documents to come up and finish, then those should spread arround the world, making people impressed. What is needed? => translation :) I'd like to be a part of PIPE between writers and translators. GPG KEYID and fingerprint; pub 1024D/46F6383D 2005-06-30 Noriko Mizumoto (Fedora Project) Key fingerprint = 8325 2A54 5528 B573 9E2C 2D70 A7B3 CA57 46F6 383D sub 1024g/5E902D70 2005-06-30 [expires: 2006-06-30] From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 26 01:48:57 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:48:57 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: hiearchical acl's in the wiki] Message-ID: <1125020937.5522.77.camel@erato.phig.org> This resolves some of our ACLs issue, the biggest part of it. We get an admin to establish separate #acls for Docs/ and Docs/Drafts, and the children inherit them. *whew* During all this, I considered if we even want an ACL for Docs/Drafts/. If we don't, anyone with EditGroup can start a draft document. The ToC at Docs/ that includes draft content need only include documents who's writers have Done The Right Thing. Some more information: http://moinmaster.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnAccessControlLists http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HierachicalAccessControlList?highlight=%28AccessControlList%29 -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: seth vidal To: kwade at redhat.com Subject: hiearchical acl's in the wiki Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:39:07 -0400 Hi Everyone, I added in the hierarchical ACLs patch for MoinMoin to the instance on fedoraproject.org. This means if you add an acl to a page then any page which is a falls below that location in the tree will also have that acl unless that specific page is set otherwise. An Example: if http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras Has an acl that allows people from ExtrasGroup to read and write to it, but not to delete or revert and you made http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/HowToUse Then HowToUse would have the same acls as Extras. I used this diff: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HierachicalAccessControlList?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=inherit-parent-acl.diff more or less. -sv -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 26 02:16:04 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:16:04 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Noriko Mizumoto In-Reply-To: <430E6F6F.80601@redhat.com> References: <430E6F6F.80601@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1125022564.5522.93.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 11:25 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > Noriko Mizumoto > Brisbane, Australia > Translator_ja/Engineering > Red Hat Asia-Pacific Irashaimasu! Welcome! ... I probably picked the wrong word, didn't I? :) > Goals; > - Establish consolidated procedure linking docs and trans > I'd like to be a part of PIPE between writers and translators. Thank you, this is a very important role. You have already been very helpful, including saving me from my own forgetfulness and mistakes. Thank you. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tsekine at sdri.co.jp Fri Aug 26 05:45:31 2005 From: tsekine at sdri.co.jp (SEKINE tatz Tatsuo) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:45:31 +1000 (EST) Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <20050825080727.GA16632@mk61.inventa.ru> References: <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> <76e72f8005082418246c643371@mail.gmail.com> <20050825080727.GA16632@mk61.inventa.ru> Message-ID: <20050826.154531.24954089.tsekine@sdri.co.jp> Hi, From: Andrew Martynov Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:07:27 +0400 > I have prepared translation of FC4 Rel Notes into Russian. We've also translated FC4 Rel Notes into Japanese. Until now, We had no chances to commit it, so I've put it under my web site. I hope that it is useful as a sample of file structures for the translation. It is temporarily available from http://www.sdri.co.jp/~tsekine/fedora-docs/ All files I added/changed are named *-ja.* or ja-*.* Regards, -- SEKINE Tatsuo: tsekine at sdri.co.jp System Design & Research Inst. Co.,Ltd. From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 26 14:27:39 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <1125012898.5522.52.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> <76e72f8005082418246c643371@mail.gmail.com> <20050825080727.GA16632@mk61.inventa.ru> <1125012898.5522.52.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: I will ask Webbink. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2005-08-25 at 12:07 +0400, Andrew Martynov wrote: > > > And one more question: how we will translate legal entities like copyright statements? > > Good question! > > Greg -- the last time we discussed this, the consensus was, we need to > get each translation of the legalnotice vetted by someone Fedora can > trust. > > I think the Red Hat translators could do this. They can ensure the > integrity of the document. > > However, IANAL. We want this resolved for FC5, so ... can we get a > legal ruling on this? > > /me goes to add to the FedoraLegalIssues page > > - Karsten > > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Fri Aug 26 14:51:16 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:51:16 -0500 Subject: XML style for translation Message-ID: <20050826095116.78a0e652.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Now as we focus on the translation problems, er, opportunities, I'd like a definitive answer about this. Which of the following formatting paragraph styles does the translation team find more friendly: When in anger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog. or: When in anger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog. Specificly, should each sentence from the source document be: 1) lines justified all together into the semblance of a paragraph; or 2) a separate line, no matter how long it gets. Personaly, I prefer #2 where each sentence forms its own formatting object. This avoids any distractions trying to minic the final document layout. I've seen diffs that just changed "the end. The", with two spaces, into "the end. The", with a single space. Ultimately, the point of XML DocBook is to separate content from presentation so I could live with either, but I'm no translator. Well, maybe if you consider redneck-to-english a formal process ;-) I'm not advocating layout surgery on existing content, but would like a "best practices" recomendation from the folks who know what they are talking about. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Fri Aug 26 14:58:14 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:58:14 -0400 Subject: XML style for translation In-Reply-To: <20050826095116.78a0e652.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20050826095116.78a0e652.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <430F2E06.8030809@redhat.com> Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Now as we focus on the translation problems, er, > opportunities, I'd like a definitive answer about this. > > Which of the following formatting paragraph styles does the translation team > find more friendly: > > When in anger or in doubt, run in > circles, scream and shout. The > quick brown fox jumped over the > lazy dog. > > or: > > When in anger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. > The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog. > > Specificly, should each sentence from the source document be: > > 1) lines justified all together into the semblance > of a paragraph; or > 2) a separate line, no matter how long it gets. Hopefully, the new XML diff tools won't care which style is used. But I guess we need to hear from translation to get the definitive answer on this. FWIW, glad you raised this issue, T. "Only your translator knows for sure..." Cheers, Mark > > Personaly, I prefer #2 where each sentence forms its own formatting > object. This avoids any distractions trying to minic the final > document layout. I've seen diffs that just changed "the end. The", > with two spaces, into "the end. The", with a single space. > > Ultimately, the point of XML DocBook is to separate content from > presentation so I could live with either, but I'm no translator. > Well, maybe if you consider redneck-to-english a formal process ;-) > > I'm not advocating layout surgery on existing content, but would like > a "best practices" recomendation from the folks who know what they > are talking about. > > Cheers > -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 15:07:24 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:07:24 -0400 Subject: XML style for translation In-Reply-To: <430F2E06.8030809@redhat.com> References: <20050826095116.78a0e652.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <430F2E06.8030809@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1125068844.5330.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 10:58 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: > Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > Now as we focus on the translation problems, er, > > opportunities, I'd like a definitive answer about this. > > > > Which of the following formatting paragraph styles does the translation team > > find more friendly: > > > > When in anger or in doubt, run in > > circles, scream and shout. The > > quick brown fox jumped over the > > lazy dog. > > > > or: > > > > When in anger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. > > The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog. > > > > Specificly, should each sentence from the source document be: > > > > 1) lines justified all together into the semblance > > of a paragraph; or > > 2) a separate line, no matter how long it gets. > > Hopefully, the new XML diff tools won't care which style is used. But I > guess we need to hear from translation to get the definitive answer on > this. FWIW, glad you raised this issue, T. > > "Only your translator knows for sure..." Right... xmlformat doesn't care about preserving any presentation other than inside CDATA type containers. *Unless* we decide to go the other way and use "foo-doc-XX.xml" for each language, in which case we can restrict tidy-bowl to just particular languages. AFAIK, xmlformat will not be able to respect parallel structures based on the "lang" attribute. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Sun Aug 28 00:09:39 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 02:09:39 +0200 Subject: Proposal Samba config guide Message-ID: <1125187779.5253.80.camel@littlePiet> I've written the first few chapters of the proposed guide. It is available at http://morna.barkhof.uni-bremen.de/Fedora-Samba-Draft.html Perhaps one of the more experienced contributors could have a quick look on it to check if I followed the documentation guide reasonably. If structural modifications are necessary would be fine to know before I finish the other chapters. Don't worry too much about details of the wording - one of our native language speakers here will check it once it is complete (hopefully). I need help in another area. Unfortunately I have no access to an English version of Windows and don't know the exact wording of the buttons and so on. I need someone to whom I can send a description of what I need to know and who will look up the exact phrase. Thanks Peter Text is also avaliable as http://morna.barkhof.uni-bremen.de/Fedora-Samba-Draft.pdf http://morna.barkhof.uni-bremen.de/Fedora-Samba-Draft.odt just in case .... From stuart at elsn.org Sun Aug 28 09:52:00 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:52:00 +0100 Subject: Proposal Samba config guide In-Reply-To: <1125187779.5253.80.camel@littlePiet> References: <1125187779.5253.80.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1125222720.2990.68.camel@Vigor10> On Sun, 2005-08-28 at 02:09 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > I've written the first few chapters of the proposed guide. It is > available at > > http://morna.barkhof.uni-bremen.de/Fedora-Samba-Draft.html > > > Perhaps one of the more experienced contributors could have a quick look > on it to check if I followed the documentation guide reasonably. If > structural modifications are necessary would be fine to know before I > finish the other chapters. Don't worry too much about details of the > wording - one of our native language speakers here will check it once it > is complete (hopefully). As a general thing - our existing documents use lots of admonitions (notes, cautions etc.), so feel free to use them wherever you think they may be useful. - I like the fact that you have explicitly stated that Samba is useful for mixed networks: IMO this is a very important point. - I'd consider removing section 1.3 ("Target systems"), and restructuring section 1.4 slightly. It's important to avoid specifying version numbers where possible, because each of the supported Fedora versions will get package updates to new versions throughout their life. For 1.4, you could provide the current version number as an example of a general point: "The samba package installs the Samba Project documentation to a directory within /usr/share/doc/ that has the same name as the package. For example, if you install samba-3.0.14a the documentation is placed in the directory /usr/share/doc/samba-3.0.14a/." - 1.5.2, Security modes: The "share" and "domain" modes are only really useful for specific arrangements, so it may be better to talk about "user" security first. You may be able to downgrade "share" mode to just a note, since it probably isn't useful most of the time. You may also want to explicitly make the point that the default "user" mode effectively makes the Samba service the primary domain controller of it's own NT4-style domain. - 2.1, Installation: I think that you are absolutely right to consider the case of dial-up users, for whom the size of the samba packages is an issue. As system-config-packages is likely to provide outdated packages, we have to advise users to run yum update as soon as possible, though. Perhaps add a "Caution" ? - 2.1, Installation: We have to assume a default Fedora installation, with no changes other than those specified in the document itself. As part of the installation the user will need to use system-config-securitylevel - the default firewall configuration blocks access to the Samba ports, and the default SELinux configuration also restricts some of Samba's functions. - The general advice is to avoid using screenshots in documentation (the IG is a special case). If you have step by step instructions you probably don't need to use screenshots in this document. > I need help in another area. Unfortunately I have no access to an > English version of Windows and don't know the exact wording of the > buttons and so on. I need someone to whom I can send a description of > what I need to know and who will look up the exact phrase. OK. If you can post a list of what you need I'll do this. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From noriko at redhat.com Mon Aug 29 01:27:13 2005 From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:27:13 +1000 Subject: organizing CVS for trans In-Reply-To: <1125012711.5522.48.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124902514.10409.189.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050824120150.facdbbf7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124906369.7693.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050824135834.925b7c2f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1124911916.7693.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430D18D1.2070704@redhat.com> <1125012711.5522.48.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <43126471.2090601@redhat.com> Hi Karsten-san and docs team Thanks for your decision of having separate xml files per language! As quality wise, I think it would be better to have proofreader (maintainer) for each translation same way with software translation. To avoid confliction committing same document file in same time by more than one translators (or maintainer), access right should be restricted to the maintainer, I think. Any thoughts? translators? Btw, I discussed with Warren about this. Ideally we'd better to have trans cvs repository apart from docs cvs. There are several challenges to make this happen at the moment. Cheers Noriko Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2005-08-25 at 11:03 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > >>Hi docs team >> >>I am coming from fedora-trans-list, Japanese translator, Noriko >>Mizumoto. I am so excited hearing the news that docs team is preparing >>to host translation. I would like to say thank you, and am looking for >>something that I can help. Please let me know if it is recommended to >>make self introduction as translator, I am most happy to do so. > > > That would be great to do. If you have done it already, you could just > send us a link to that self-intro. > > >>To me it would be nice if translators can work on po files similar to >>fedora software modules we are currently working, since this must be one >>of safe way to minimize translator from messing up tags. However this >>might be required more time of your side, I guess. >> >>When the format will go with inline, the file can only be translated by >>one translator at the time and other translators have to wait for >>her/his turn, if my understanding is correct. >>Then it seems that this is not practical for release notes which has >>strictly limited time-frame for both docs and trans. > > > Yes, this is how the RHEL documentation is translated, with separate XML > files per language. > > Despite our geekish preference for translations all in one file, it is > clear we need to make them separate files. > > foo-en.xml > foo-it.xml > foo-ru.xml > foo-jp.xml > ... > > Should we want to combine then in the future, I bet there is some way to > do it in Perl.[1] > > - Karsten > [1] Isn't this true of everything? > From noriko at redhat.com Mon Aug 29 02:14:23 2005 From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:14:23 +1000 Subject: XML style for translation In-Reply-To: <1125068844.5330.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050826095116.78a0e652.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <430F2E06.8030809@redhat.com> <1125068844.5330.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43126F7F.9060900@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 10:58 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: > >>Tommy Reynolds wrote: >> >>>Now as we focus on the translation problems, er, >>>opportunities, I'd like a definitive answer about this. >>> >>>Which of the following formatting paragraph styles does the translation team >>>find more friendly: >>> >>> When in anger or in doubt, run in >>> circles, scream and shout. The >>> quick brown fox jumped over the >>> lazy dog. >>> >>>or: >>> >>> When in anger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. >>> The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog. >>> >>>Specificly, should each sentence from the source document be: >>> >>> 1) lines justified all together into the semblance >>> of a paragraph; or >>> 2) a separate line, no matter how long it gets. >> >>Hopefully, the new XML diff tools won't care which style is used. But I >>guess we need to hear from translation to get the definitive answer on >>this. FWIW, glad you raised this issue, T. >> >>"Only your translator knows for sure..." > > > Right... xmlformat doesn't care about preserving any presentation other > than inside CDATA type containers. *Unless* we decide to go the other > way and use "foo-doc-XX.xml" for each language, in which case we can > restrict tidy-bowl to just particular languages. AFAIK, xmlformat will > not be able to respect parallel structures based on the "lang" > attribute. > > Actually I don't care much about this, writer can go either way :) Especially once the file converted into po file, then there is no difference for us. Noriko From webmanagement at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 10:26:40 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andy Hudson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:26:40 +0100 Subject: Desktop Guide/Moving From Windows to Fedora Message-ID: Hi all, I'm currently away on vacation so haven't had much chance to sit down and do anything with the Moving From Fedora to Windows guide. However I should get some time to sit down this week and do some writing. I think there will be a fair amount of cross-over between the Moving from Windows to Fedora and the Desktop Guide. However, the initial 'Getting Started' is literally an orientation sheet designed to help new users to get settled into their new OS and provide pointers to other documentation that will have fuller explanations. I'd like to think it would be mentioned in the release notes at some point when it is finished. Given that this was mentioned as a possible test of the Wiki - does this mean you want me to write directly into the Wiki and it will be ultimately transformed into XML? Finally - it would probably be good if we could mirror the desktop guide to what people actually want to do with their computers. I added a line to the Graphics section of the Desktop Users Guide about Digital Cameras - this is one of the biggest reasons why people use computers and we should reflect this. I actually could get some access to research done into why people use their computers and could summarise this if it would be preferable. The only problem is that it would be for UK users only - I can't get data on the US. Besides, we're not *that* different, are we? ;) Thanks, Andrew From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 29 10:29:25 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:59:25 +0530 Subject: Desktop Guide/Moving From Windows to Fedora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4312E385.60608@redhat.com> Andy Hudson wrote: >Hi all, > >I'm currently away on vacation so haven't had much chance to sit down >and do anything with the Moving From Fedora to Windows guide. However >I should get some time to sit down this week and do some writing. > >I think there will be a fair amount of cross-over between the Moving >from Windows to Fedora and the Desktop Guide. However, the initial >'Getting Started' is literally an orientation sheet designed to help >new users to get settled into their new OS and provide pointers to >other documentation that will have fuller explanations. I'd like to >think it would be mentioned in the release notes at some point when it >is finished. > >Given that this was mentioned as a possible test of the Wiki - does >this mean you want me to write directly into the Wiki and it will be >ultimately transformed into XML? > > > Yes >Finally - it would probably be good if we could mirror the desktop >guide to what people actually want to do with their computers. I added >a line to the Graphics section of the Desktop Users Guide about >Digital Cameras - this is one of the biggest reasons why people use >computers and we should reflect this. I actually could get some access >to research done into why people use their computers and could >summarise this if it would be preferable. The only problem is that it >would be for UK users only - I can't get data on the US. Besides, >we're not *that* different, are we? ;) > > We really are regards Rahul From felipe.alfaro at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 10:29:49 2005 From: felipe.alfaro at gmail.com (Felipe Alfaro Solana) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:29:49 +0200 Subject: Desktop Guide/Moving From Windows to Fedora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f6293f10508290329720a1c4e@mail.gmail.com> > I'm currently away on vacation so haven't had much chance to sit > down and do anything with the Moving From Fedora to Windows guide. I guess you mean "Moving from Winblows to Fedora", don't you? ;-) From webmanagement at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 11:52:44 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andy Hudson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:52:44 +0100 Subject: Desktop Guide/Moving From Windows to Fedora In-Reply-To: <6f6293f10508290329720a1c4e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6f6293f10508290329720a1c4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 29/08/05, Felipe Alfaro Solana wrote: > > I'm currently away on vacation so haven't had much chance to sit > > down and do anything with the Moving From Fedora to Windows guide. > > I guess you mean "Moving from Winblows to Fedora", don't you? ;-) > This is evidence of sleep deprivation caused by my little baby boy!! Andrew From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Mon Aug 29 16:11:36 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:11:36 +0200 Subject: Proposal Samba config guide In-Reply-To: <1125222720.2990.68.camel@Vigor10> References: <1125187779.5253.80.camel@littlePiet> <1125222720.2990.68.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1125331896.8678.14.camel@littlePiet> Thanks for having a look onto the text and your ideas. I'll incorporate them into the next version and will come back then. I hope to be able to have a complete first draft next week. Peter From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Mon Aug 29 16:15:03 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:15:03 +0200 Subject: docs ideas, dream big In-Reply-To: <1124747838.6250.57.camel@Vigor10> References: <1124395088.15743.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124717580.5186.78.camel@littlePiet> <1124747838.6250.57.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1125332103.8678.17.camel@littlePiet> Am Montag, den 22.08.2005, 22:57 +0100 schrieb Stuart Ellis: > > > There's a lot of very good ideas and arguments here. Below is my attempt > to summarize them so that hopefully other people will come in and start > discussing the specifics in more detail. I haven't added any comments on > this mail. Thanks for your efforts to summarize my quite long text! Obviously nobody has time to dream :-) Peter From pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de Mon Aug 29 16:21:28 2005 From: pboy at barkhof.uni-bremen.de (Peter Boy) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:21:28 +0200 Subject: elements of the Desktop guide Message-ID: <1125332488.8678.23.camel@littlePiet> Wouldn't it be worthwhile for the steering committee to (actively) ask this guy http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Setup_your_wireless_client_at_home to make it part of the desktop guide (perhaps as a shorter "technical note" as I proposed some days ago). Wireless networking is a often discussed problem. Maybe someone should add a chapter about handling cards which are not enclosed in the distribution. Peter From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 29 17:53:32 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:53:32 -0700 Subject: doc schedule for FC5 Message-ID: <1125338012.17792.21.camel@erato.phig.org> Pardon the cross-post, this is important enough to deserve it. :) This schedule has been discussed with translation, so should fit into their needs. This is more than a draft, but there is room for some change if you can make a good case. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule Here is the test1 excerpt for discussion: Test1 24 Oct. Relnote content frozen for trans 28 Oct. Guides content frozen for trans 31 Oct. Relnotes freeze for trans 01 Nov. Relnotes freeze for release (ISO) 02 Nov. Final ISO spin. 04 Nov. Guides trans freeze 05 Nov. Guides frozen for release (Web) 07 Nov. Test1 release Translation has asked for a week to do appropriate translation. This will result in up-to-date content missing from the release notes. Here is how we address that: * Early requests for relnotes * Publicize this schedule, no surprises * First and most prominent link at the top of the relnotes points the reader at the online version of the relnotes * This online version will be updated the day of FC release * Will be in CVS * Will need translation ASAP * This helps make the next trans cycle shorter * Will be posted live in rolling releases -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ivazquez at ivazquez.net Mon Aug 29 18:51:51 2005 From: ivazquez at ivazquez.net (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:51:51 -0400 Subject: Proposal: Building Packages under Fedora In-Reply-To: <1124842111.5253.33.camel@littlePiet> References: <1124771400.3414.58.camel@ignacio.lan> <1124842111.5253.33.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1125341511.28096.4.camel@ignacio.lan> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 02:08 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 00:30 -0400 schrieb Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams: > > notecase format (available in Fedora Extras). > valuable hint for me - didn't know it. > > In Introduction you might add as a conclusion from your text: Even for > non programmers (but administrators / users ) one should make an rpm > package for all software, which the user will install from a tar ball > because no rpm is available or because he/she has to change its > behaviour. Because it is easier to administer the system. > > Perhaps you should add a section after the Introduction with the titel > "goals and intended audience" of something like that. You should add > some information as > > - what can be learned here > - what is different form generell rpm guides (as MaximumRPM) > (perhaps: shorter / limited to essential? with features specific > to the Fedora distribution?) > - relation to the packaging guide of the extras project. All excellent ideas. I will take them into consideration. -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams http://fedora.ivazquez.net/ gpg --keyserver hkp://subkeys.pgp.net --recv-key 38028b72 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 21:37:59 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:37:59 -0400 Subject: elements of the Desktop guide In-Reply-To: <1125332488.8678.23.camel@littlePiet> References: <1125332488.8678.23.camel@littlePiet> Message-ID: <1125351479.3161.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 18:21 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > Wouldn't it be worthwhile for the steering committee to (actively) ask > this guy > > http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Setup_your_wireless_client_at_home > > to make it part of the desktop guide (perhaps as a shorter "technical > note" as I proposed some days ago). Wireless networking is a often > discussed problem. Maybe someone should add a chapter about handling > cards which are not enclosed in the distribution. This is a good article, unfortunately licensed through CC BY-NC-SA, but perhaps the author will dual-license it. You don't need the steering committee to do this, though; feel free to write the gentleman in question and ask whether he would license a copy under the FDL so we could include it. What I wonder on a technical level, though, is why more people aren't encouraging the use of NetworkManager, which is a truly great new system for managing connections. I don't turn any of my interfaces on at boot time, which means booting is really quite fast when I'm on wireless. When I move my box around the network configuration changes on the fly, whether I plug it in or unplug it. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 22:25:30 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:25:30 -0400 Subject: Proposal: Building Packages under Fedora In-Reply-To: <1125341511.28096.4.camel@ignacio.lan> References: <1124771400.3414.58.camel@ignacio.lan> <1124842111.5253.33.camel@littlePiet> <1125341511.28096.4.camel@ignacio.lan> Message-ID: <1125354331.3161.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 14:51 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote: > On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 02:08 +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > Am Dienstag, den 23.08.2005, 00:30 -0400 schrieb Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams: > > > notecase format (available in Fedora Extras). > > valuable hint for me - didn't know it. > > > > In Introduction you might add as a conclusion from your text: Even for > > non programmers (but administrators / users ) one should make an rpm > > package for all software, which the user will install from a tar ball > > because no rpm is available or because he/she has to change its > > behaviour. Because it is easier to administer the system. > > > > Perhaps you should add a section after the Introduction with the titel > > "goals and intended audience" of something like that. You should add > > some information as > > > > - what can be learned here > > - what is different form generell rpm guides (as MaximumRPM) > > (perhaps: shorter / limited to essential? with features specific > > to the Fedora distribution?) > > - relation to the packaging guide of the extras project. > > All excellent ideas. I will take them into consideration. You might want to refer to the draft DocGuide notes on the wiki [1] for recommended structures in a tutorial intro. Peter is pretty much right on the money; keep in mind that tutorials are procedure-oriented, so they should define: 1. Purpose of the tutorial (as Peter says, what is the reader going to learn from it?) 2. What you already need to know in order to understand the tutorial (and hopefully pointers to that information) 3. A brief paragraph about any major concepts in the tutorial so you don't have to interrupt the procedures later to explain it (example: If you're writing a tutorial about using GnuPG, talk briefly about what GnuPG is in this intro subsection) 4. Additional resources, like outside sites that are helpful or from which you drew information 5. Acknowledgements - optional 6. Any draft or other notices needed = = = = = [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/DocumentationGuide -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 29 23:37:35 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:37:35 -0700 Subject: Desktop Guide/Moving From Windows to Fedora In-Reply-To: <4312E385.60608@redhat.com> References: <4312E385.60608@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1125358655.6117.7.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 15:59 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Andy Hudson wrote: > >Given that this was mentioned as a possible test of the Wiki - does > >this mean you want me to write directly into the Wiki and it will be > >ultimately transformed into XML? > > > > > > > Yes Actually, we mean for you to use the tool you want to use. The target format is XML. If, otoh, you are going to work with a few other people, you want to agree on a common collaboration platform. It could be XML directly, or via Wiki. > >Finally - it would probably be good if we could mirror the desktop > >guide to what people actually want to do with their computers. I added > >a line to the Graphics section of the Desktop Users Guide about > >Digital Cameras - this is one of the biggest reasons why people use > >computers and we should reflect this. I actually could get some access > >to research done into why people use their computers and could > >summarise this if it would be preferable. The only problem is that it > >would be for UK users only - I can't get data on the US. Besides, > >we're not *that* different, are we? ;) > > > > > We really are Well, it's somewhere to start. We'd like to see what you can legally show us. :) I think we can make a list of common uses that we are reaching for, sort of like a list of use cases. We can hand this to the Marketing, if they want to create some usability profiles for us to test ideas against. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 30 00:23:13 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:23:13 -0700 Subject: elements of the Desktop guide In-Reply-To: <1125351479.3161.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1125332488.8678.23.camel@littlePiet> <1125351479.3161.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1125361393.6117.22.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 17:37 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > This is a good article, unfortunately licensed through CC BY-NC-SA, but > perhaps the author will dual-license it. You don't need the steering > committee to do this, though; feel free to write the gentleman in > question and ask whether he would license a copy under the FDL so we > could include it. Let's hold off on relicensing anything for the moment. We need to see how the Foundation by-laws shake-out. I'm trying to get some answers about this soonest. Sorry for the stalling. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 30 21:28:18 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:28:18 -0700 Subject: Minutes 29 August 2005 FDSCo meeting Message-ID: <1125437298.17936.64.camel@erato.phig.org> Working out scheduling details, much more documentation presence in FC5 release. New colophon thanks you and you and you and you for your contributions to the release notes. Want your name to appear in that colophon? Become a relnotes beat writer! ################################################## FDSCo meeting 29 August 2005 #fedora-docs, irc.freenode.net Attendees: ========== Paul Frields Tammy Fox Karsten Wade Stuart Ellis Gavin Henry Mark Johnson Guests: ======= None Regrets: ======= (Deprecated field) Updates: ======== The IG is going to be in the GOLD ISO and on the CD, so it needs to track the release notes cycle Work on Docs/ and Docs/Drafts/ is ongoing, ACLs should be applied to those pages soon and we can start experimenting with parent-child relationships and drafting documentation. At Elliot's suggestion, we'll hold off on requesting for keyword usage in commit log messages until the script is written. Actions: ======== Karsten - Relnotes announcements in usual places Stuart - Contact Anaconda team for what they think needs to be in the IG for FC5 Karsten - How is trans for XML diffs v. line diffs? Ready yet? Karsten - Can trans do the IG in staggers, and fix the differences later. Karsten - Update schedule, moving IG out of test1 and inline with relnotes, including packaging Paul - Working up a docs package, XML included, yelpify? Karsten/Stuart - Get a look at some MoinMoin to DocBook output. Gavin - Write up Wiki page of what to document for relnotes. Gavin - Start a discussion on recruiting for relnotes beat writers. ## 30 ## -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Aug 31 09:14:10 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:14:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Minutes 29 August 2005 FDSCo meeting In-Reply-To: <1125437298.17936.64.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1125437298.17936.64.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <54691.195.38.86.72.1125479650.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > Gavin - Write up Wiki page of what to document for relnotes. Where's the best place for this? Somewhere linked from here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats > > Gavin - Start a discussion on recruiting for relnotes beat writers. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 31 09:18:42 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:48:42 +0530 Subject: Minutes 29 August 2005 FDSCo meeting In-Reply-To: <54691.195.38.86.72.1125479650.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1125437298.17936.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <54691.195.38.86.72.1125479650.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <431575F2.90100@redhat.com> Gavin Henry wrote: >>Gavin - Write up Wiki page of what to document for relnotes. >> >> > >Where's the best place for this? > >Somewhere linked from here: > >http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats > That would be good regards Rahul From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Aug 31 10:48:13 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:48:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Minutes 29 August 2005 FDSCo meeting In-Reply-To: <431575F2.90100@redhat.com> References: <1125437298.17936.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <54691.195.38.86.72.1125479650.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <431575F2.90100@redhat.com> Message-ID: <56456.195.38.86.72.1125485293.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > Gavin Henry wrote: > >>>Gavin - Write up Wiki page of what to document for relnotes. >>> >>> >> >>Where's the best place for this? >> >>Somewhere linked from here: >> >>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats >> > That would be good OK. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 31 16:28:48 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:28:48 -0700 Subject: Minutes 29 August 2005 FDSCo meeting In-Reply-To: <56456.195.38.86.72.1125485293.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1125437298.17936.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <54691.195.38.86.72.1125479650.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <431575F2.90100@redhat.com> <56456.195.38.86.72.1125485293.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1125505728.17936.154.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-31 at 11:48 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > >>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats If you discover that the page is applicable to more than just "what to document for the relnotes", we could move it up a layer: wiki/DocsProject/WhatToDocument or somesuch. Many cases, developers will be offering something for the release notes. But with the increasing number of tutorials and guides, there are any number of things they -could- tag for us to capture for documentation. Having a more generic page could help this. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 31 19:31:05 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:31:05 -0700 Subject: doc writers group for Wiki and how-to Message-ID: <1125516665.17936.202.camel@erato.phig.org> If you want to do any document drafts on the Wiki, please see any of the people on this page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocEditorsGroup To add you to this page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocWritersGroup This last group has the rights to manipulate pages in the fp.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/ tree. Just like CVS, all writers have access to all documents being worked on. Golden rule applies: treat other documents as you want your documents treated. When a document is ready to be published as a draft, it can be added to the Docs/ list of documents, under the DRAFTS section. This is done by an editor. None of this is a requirement. You can populate the Wiki with any number of greatly and poorly written documents, at your will. We're hoping to bring the same level of quality and usefulness to the Docs/ tree as we try for in all Fedora Documentation. This process helps us to do that, and makes it obvious for readers what is and is not formal Fedora documentation. Outside of these directions, we haven't finished developing how tutorials and guides are laid out in the Wiki. This is something we discover as we go. As a start, use this page for reference: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WritingUsingTheWiki Those who are already using the Wiki, please help us to translate our DocBook usage guidelines into Wiki usage guidelines. Questions? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: