From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sat Jan 8 14:51:48 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:51:48 +0000 Subject: Hardening Doc Update In-Reply-To: <1103866963.22961.36.camel@bach> References: <1103770382.22961.2.camel@bach> <1103839062.13847.1.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> <1103866963.22961.36.camel@bach> Message-ID: <1105195909.6673.47.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Thu, 2004-12-23 at 21:42 -0800, tuxxer wrote: > > > > 3. You have a section on disabling/locking user accounts, but don't > > mention that some of these users are not installed unless the packages > > that use them (e.g. mysql-server, httpd) are installed. It's probably > > worth a small section (or at least a ) to talk about package > > selection during installation. > > Not a bad idea. I thought that this should be something more for the > Installation Guide, but I think that is still in progress. But I might > be able to mention something here and then reference the Install Guide > for more detail or something. The Installation Guide text is fairly broad-brush, because it just explains the options presented in the installer. This is the Package Selection text: http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/fedora-install-guide-en/ch- packageselection.html The needs of the advanced user who requires details about the mechanics of Fedora/Linux have to be balanced somehow against the need of the new user for something they can step through without being overloaded with too much information in a single dose. I think that we all hit this problem... The best solution that I could think of was to keep the text of the main Installation Guide as self-contained and focused as possible, and punt systems details to an (unwritten) chapter or appendix that can be read after the installation has been completed. I'm not sure what the right format for this would be - perhaps a kind of "Anatomy of Fedora" chapter with one section per item, each section centred around an element of the graphical interface (so that the reader has some reference point), with the text as jargon-free as possible, a nod to the appropriate command-line utility and a link to a document that provides full details. E.g. the SELinux section would talk about SELinux referencing the system-config-securitylevel utility with a link at the end to the SELinux FAQ. Along the same lines, the section on accounts would differentiate between user accounts, the root account, and system accounts. From tuxxer at cox.net Sat Jan 8 20:00:35 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:00:35 -0800 Subject: Hardening Doc Update 2 Message-ID: <1105214435.3328.5.camel@bach> Hi all. I added some of the suggestions Paul gave me. I'm still working on some of the password stuff, and I would like to put screenshots in some places, but since I'm new to this whole way of documenting things, I'll have to do a little research on that one. Anyway, please check out the updates. I've updated the HTML version at http://members.cox.net/tuxxer as well as the XML, which can be found at the link below. http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/fedora-hardening-guide-whole-en.xml Please feel free to make comments, constructive criticism, etc. Depending upon the amount of feedback I get, I'll post a final here, then post that to the bug tracker. Thanks for all of the help and advice! Oh, I tried to do a 'make pdf', and it failed. It said there was no target, so maybe I grabbed the wrong Makefile when I got started or something. If anyone can point me in the direction to get this target into my Makefile, I'd like to make this as complete as possible. Thanks. -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Jan 9 14:48:17 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:48:17 +0000 Subject: Hardening Doc Update 2 In-Reply-To: <1105214435.3328.5.camel@bach> References: <1105214435.3328.5.camel@bach> Message-ID: <1105282097.11218.212321378@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:00:35 -0800, "tuxxer" said: > Please feel free to make comments, constructive criticism, etc. > Depending upon the amount of feedback I get, I'll post a final here, > then post that to the bug tracker. I think that it's a really useful document, so please take these as comments rather than criticism. The points below mainly relate to Red Hat or Linux-specific quirks. General points) - FWIW, I handled root commands in the Installation Guide by bracketing them with su -c. My worry with "login as root" is that it is ambiguous and a new user may start logging in to X as root. If you move the sections on disabling root logins and sudo to the top you could also promote the use of sudo for admin commands throughout the rest of the document. - The wheel group used by sudo can also be used in a broader way - if you put "AllowGroups wheel" in sshd_config as well as "PermitRoot no" you implicitly block remote logins from all accounts other than the users you manually added to the wheel group, which mitigates the risks of compromised service accounts (Section 1.6). This isn't specific to wheel, but it just reduces overhead if you reuse the group rather than create a new one. These definitely aren't official in any way. - You might also want to mention the role of the built-in firewall - even enabled services like SSH are effectively closed unless the administrator alters the default firewall settings. - SMTP has a specific security role as messaging service, so I feel that it shouldn't be disabled. Daily LogWatch log analysis, smartd disk monitoring, SELinux context checkers, crond etc. all send mail to the address that root is aliased to in /etc/aliases (or /etc/postfix/aliases). The default configurations of the SMTP services supplied with FC are to reject connections from other hosts, so they cannot be used as relays unless the administrator changes the config. I find LogWatch is incredibly useful as a early warning system on our public-facing Red Hat servers. Section 1.1) You might want to consider the role of Installation Types here - the user can pick an Installation Type and then customise the package groups (which ties in with role selection in 1.2). Anaconda essentially mandates certain packages, so you don't really get the flexibility that you mention. Even using the "Minimal" package group will install sendmail, CUPS, SSH and NFS (and mDNS on FC3, I think). "If you know that the system you are installing will be used as only a webserver, then there shouldn't be any reason to install sendmail" See above. Section 1.4) The automatic update feature of yum could be mentioned here. The incantation would be: su -c '/sbin/chkconfig --level 345 yum on; /sbin/service yum start' Section 1.5.1) You've listed snortd, which doesn't ship with Fedora Core. In the GUI you have to untick the boxes on service levels 3, 4 and 5 to really enable/disable a service. Certain key services are also active at runlevel 2 - sendmail and SSH. Section 1.5.2) I really like the idea of the serviceslist.txt. If you put an example listing in then users will be able to copy and paste, which should give them more confidence to do it. Section 1.6) Strictly IMHO, disabling service accounts is often excessive and causes a maintenance problem. They can't login locally, and you can easily block remote logins (see above). Section 3) I like this section (that's all). Section 4.2) "Then, either reboot your system, or issue the command pkill -1 sshd. The pkill command will force sshd to re-read it's configuration file. This will force users to login as a normal user account and then su to root, or utilize sudo." Are you doing this to ensure that active SSH sessions are terminated ? If so, it's probably worth noting. The non-disruptive way to apply a config. change in Red Hat/Fedora is: su -c '/sbin/service sshd reload' -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From tuxxer at cox.net Mon Jan 10 02:28:44 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:28:44 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Hardening Doc Update 2] Message-ID: <1105324124.3561.2.camel@bach> -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: tuxxer > Reply-To: tuxxer at cox.net > Cc: Rahul Sundaram > Subject: Re: Hardening Doc Update 2 > Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:24:38 -0800 > > Forwarded at the request of Rahul.... > > On Sun, 2005-01-09 at 14:41 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-intro.html > > > > " Most of the threats on the Internet typically target > > Microsoft Windows systems." > > > > I would like a tutorial on hardening Linux start out > > with be task based and focus on the concepts and guide > > the users on specific tasks as well as the generic > > ideas. Starting out with comparing the state of > > Windows on the first sentence seems to be unnecessary. > > > > > > "This tutorial is a basic walk-through of how to > > harden a basic install of Fedora Core" > > > > I would like this to be the first sentence instead. > > replace "install" with "installation". If you must > > mention that these concepts will also likely to apply > > on other linux distributions too then add that as a > > note. its usually not important to the audience you > > target > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter1.html > > > > " This section will not go into the actual process of > > installing packages, that falls under the scope of the > > Installation Guide." > > > > not really. that falls under the scope under a short > > package management guide which is not yet written by > > anyone. just mention that you dont cover this topic in > > this guide and that should be enough. If a document > > covering this is written, then you can revise your > > guide to add a link to that doc > > > > "1.1.1. Package Selections During Install" > > > > while the basic idea is sound, the example of sendmail > > is wrong. sendmail is installed to send out > > notifications to users. dont override the distribution > > design decisions with your document. if you are not > > sure of why a particular package is installed or > > activated for a particular setup then please try and > > consult with the developers in the fedora-devel list. > > its usually there for a reason > > > > "1.1.2. Package Considerations for Installation of New > > Software" > > > > > > I would rewrite this section as follows. > > > > If you are installing new software thats is part of > > fedora core or extras repository its checked for > > integrity using a mechanism called gpg. This is > > enabled by default for package managers like yum and > > up2date. However be careful about installing software > > from untrusted sources. You should not install random > > packages with root permissions as such software can be > > either buggy or introduce security problems in your > > system. > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/sysid-and-role.html > > > > The first two questions seem to be redundant. Fedora > > core installation types are targetted towards three > > kinds of users > > > > Personal desktop users > > Workstation > > Server > > > > Using these as examples for system role is likely to > > be better for the understanding of end users > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/gui-update.html > > > > screenshots showing blue,red icons etc as status > > notifications is useful here > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/cli-updates.html > > > > yum check-update though useful is not actually > > necessary for updating the system. users can just run > > yum update and choose when prompted > > > > It seems that the kernel is not updated by default. I > > am not sure whether this behavior has changed > > recently. if not this should be documented. > > > > > > "Warning > > > > If there are any failed dependencies, you will be > > asked if you want to download and install the > > dependencies. Most of the time, you should do this. " > > > > this isnt actually a warning. Software dependencies > > are not something abnormal. The terminology "failed > > dependencies" is incorrect. Use "unresolved > > dependencies" instead. change this into a note > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/userconfig-cli.html > > > > Usually system users (uid <500) are created and > > removed by packages concerned with it. users might be > > better off removing the package itself if they are in > > no need for it. its a rare case where users would want > > to have the package installed by the user removed. the > > package wouldnt work without the concerned user. so > > why have it at all? > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter2.html > > > > kernel hardening is not vital to the system. Its not > > usually part of a typical security guide. If you are > > not going to cover this topic, just add a note in some > > other section or remove it altogether. I dont think > > fedora with selinux enabled would actually require > > proactive kernel level hardening > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter3.html > > > > please link to the appropriate section Introduction to > > Linux guide in tldp.org where the basis concepts of > > file permissions are explained in a clear way instead > > of repeating them here > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/umask.html > > > > the default umask is just fine for fedora since every > > user has his own group. its not advisable to change it > > for the typical setup > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/limit-root.html > > > > the first two sections should be expanded to cover the > > details > > > > > > " > > Unless you are starting a GUI application that > > requires root permissions, you will not be prompted > > for the root password if attempting to execute a > > command that requires root permissions. You will just > > get a "Permission Denied" error. > > " > > > > > > > > usually but not in all cases. up2date is an exception > > to this for example > > > > > > " Unfortunately, there isn't yet a Fedora GUI tool for > > editing SSH configuration" > > > > ssh configuration is done by sys administrators in a > > server setup which is likely to run without a gui. end > > users do not require ssh server nor would they need a > > gui. I do not think this comment is appropriate here > > > > > > 4.3. Configuring and Using sudo > > > > su - switch user > > sudo - switch user do > > > > you might want to mention this. > > > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/shells.html > > > > again, users might actually want to just remove non > > administrative users rather than just changing their > > shell > > > > > > I believe this document lacks details in what it aims > > to covers. If you are just going to cover a few > > details then it might be better to just cover security > > details for particular type of roles > > > > for example, desktop users might know just a few basic > > security practises > > > > 1) do not run as root > > 2) install only software you want and do not install > > them from random sources > > 3) make sure you keep these software updated. > > priortise security and bug fixes and skip feature > > enhancements if not required > > > > that really sums it up. of course you need to explain > > the rationales and additonal details and that would be > > a short to the point guide. server security is much > > more detailed. > > > > this document in my opinion doesnt serve its purpose > > currently and should either be expanded to cover > > security in a much more detailed way or just target > > the desktop users and point to other docs for details > > if necessary > > > > > > > > ===== > > Regards > > Rahul Sundaram > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Mon Jan 10 11:23:28 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:23:28 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Hardening Doc Update 2] In-Reply-To: <1105324124.3561.2.camel@bach> References: <1105324124.3561.2.camel@bach> Message-ID: <1105356208.26976.212374818@webmail.messagingengine.com> > > this document in my opinion doesnt serve its purpose > > currently and should either be expanded to cover > > security in a much more detailed way or just target > > the desktop users and point to other docs for details > > if necessary Perhaps a lot of the issues raised could essentially be resolved by editing the "Intended Audience" ? Reading the document from the perspective of someone using Fedora for workstations and small servers (which I think are the common use cases), and thought that it covered enough of the elements of a default installation. Each network service has it's own issues which an overview can't really address. I agree that advice purely for end-users running a desktop would require a different format. We may be able to address the issues about package management fairly swiftly. Material exists documenting all of the elements of package management discussed, but hasn't been entered as a Fedora document. I'll post a separate mail and try to progress this, since I ought to have done so before. On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:28:44 -0800, "tuxxer" said: > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From tuxxer at cox.net Tue Jan 11 08:04:34 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:04:34 -0800 Subject: Hardening Doc Update 2 In-Reply-To: <1105282097.11218.212321378@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1105214435.3328.5.camel@bach> <1105282097.11218.212321378@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1105430674.3561.30.camel@bach> On Sun, 2005-01-09 at 14:48 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:00:35 -0800, "tuxxer" said: > > Please feel free to make comments, constructive criticism, etc. > > Depending upon the amount of feedback I get, I'll post a final here, > > then post that to the bug tracker. > > I think that it's a really useful document, so please take these as > comments rather than criticism. The points below mainly relate to Red > Hat or Linux-specific quirks. > I think that's what we're shooting for since it's meant to be FC specific. ;-) I'll let you know when the "all-encompassing-linux" security book comes out....maybe I'll give you an acknowledgment. ;-) > > General points) > > - FWIW, I handled root commands in the Installation Guide by bracketing > them with su -c. My worry with "login as root" is that it is ambiguous > and a new user may start logging in to X as root. If you move the > sections on disabling root logins and sudo to the top you could also > promote the use of sudo for admin commands throughout the rest of the > document. > > - The wheel group used by sudo can also be used in a broader way - if > you put "AllowGroups wheel" in sshd_config as well as "PermitRoot no" > you implicitly block remote logins from all accounts other than the > users you manually added to the wheel group, which mitigates the risks > of compromised service accounts (Section 1.6). This isn't specific to > wheel, but it just reduces overhead if you reuse the group rather than > create a new one. > > These definitely aren't official in any way. > > - You might also want to mention the role of the built-in firewall - > even enabled services like SSH are effectively closed unless the > administrator alters the default firewall settings. I use Firestarter, so this I need to do some playing around with this before I can speak intelligently about it. > > - SMTP has a specific security role as messaging service, so I feel that > it shouldn't be disabled. Daily LogWatch log analysis, smartd disk > monitoring, SELinux context checkers, crond etc. all send mail to the > address that root is aliased to in /etc/aliases (or > /etc/postfix/aliases). The default configurations of the SMTP services > supplied with FC are to reject connections from other hosts, so they > cannot be used as relays unless the administrator changes the config. I > find LogWatch is incredibly useful as a early warning system on our > public-facing Red Hat servers. Makes sense. > > > Section 1.1) > > You might want to consider the role of Installation Types here - the > user can pick an Installation Type and then customise the package groups > (which ties in with role selection in 1.2). Anaconda essentially > mandates certain packages, so you don't really get the flexibility that > you mention. Even using the "Minimal" package group will install > sendmail, CUPS, SSH and NFS (and mDNS on FC3, I think). > > "If you know that the system you are installing will be used as only a > webserver, then there shouldn't be any reason to install sendmail" > > See above. > Mentioned. Could probably do more here, so I will look into adding more detail. I think I really need to do some experimentation, but don't have the facilities at the moment. > Section 1.4) > > The automatic update feature of yum could be mentioned here. The > incantation would be: > > su -c '/sbin/chkconfig --level 345 yum on; /sbin/service yum start' > Done. > Section 1.5.1) > > You've listed snortd, which doesn't ship with Fedora > Core. > I'm running snortd, so it showed up in the list when I ran the command. ;-) > In the GUI you have to untick the boxes on service levels 3, 4 and 5 to > really enable/disable a service. Certain key services are also active > at runlevel 2 - sendmail and SSH. Got it. > > Section 1.5.2) > > I really like the idea of the serviceslist.txt. If you put an example > listing in then users will be able to copy and paste, which should give > them more confidence to do it. Done. > > Section 1.6) > > Strictly IMHO, disabling service accounts is often excessive and causes > a maintenance problem. They can't login locally, and you can easily > block remote logins (see above). Rahul mentioned something along these lines. Does anyone know for sure if you remove a certain service that the user for that service is removed as well? I don't remember for sure, but I believe that the user remains. > > > Section 3) > > I like this section (that's all). > Thanks. Nice to get a little kudos in the middle. It's the "spoonful of sugar that makes the medicine go down". ;-) > > Section 4.2) > > "Then, either reboot your system, or issue the command pkill -1 sshd. > The pkill command will force sshd to re-read it's configuration file. > This will force users to login as a normal user account and then su to > root, or utilize sudo." > > Are you doing this to ensure that active SSH sessions are terminated ? > If so, it's probably worth noting. The non-disruptive way to apply a > config. change in Red Hat/Fedora is: > > su -c '/sbin/service sshd reload' This would be from my Solaris background. As you know, there are 6 different ways to do just about anything, and some of them tend to be more graceful than others. :) However, I think that it might be valuable to kill existing connections (assuming that you have multiple users, which I think I touched on this in the scope and intended audience). If you have someone "unwanted" logged on while you're making changes, booting them might be handy. Admittedly, it's unlikely, however, possible. I think I'll mention both, with a caveat. > -- > > Stuart Ellis > s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk > Stuart, As usual, your comments are insightful, intelligent, experienced, and greatly appreciated. The "general points" are valid, but may require some "re-engineering" of the doc in its entirety, so I'll save that for another time when I have a little more time to dedicate to it. I've commented where I was able to make "quick changes". And again, your insights are greatly appreciated. All, the updates made from Stuart's comments have been posted, if you would like to check out the revisions. Thanks. -Charlie -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Jan 11 10:53:40 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:53:40 +0000 Subject: Hardening Doc Update 2 In-Reply-To: <1105430674.3561.30.camel@bach> References: <1105214435.3328.5.camel@bach> <1105282097.11218.212321378@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1105430674.3561.30.camel@bach> Message-ID: <1105440820.16799.212466336@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:04:34 -0800, "tuxxer" said: > > - You might also want to mention the role of the built-in firewall - > > even enabled services like SSH are effectively closed unless the > > administrator alters the default firewall settings. > > I use Firestarter, so this I need to do some playing around with this > before I can speak intelligently about it. It's extremely basic, which is good for simple configurations. I don't know what RH would recommend for routers and more complex setups - I use shorewall. The only quirks with the built-in firewall config that I can think of are a) it automatically allows inbound traffic for mDNS and UDP 631 (CUPS browsing ?), b) The manual install process doesn't expose all of the functionality - trusted interfaces and allowing arbitrary port numbers become post-installation tasks. > > You might want to consider the role of Installation Types here - the > > user can pick an Installation Type and then customise the package groups > > (which ties in with role selection in 1.2). Anaconda essentially > > mandates certain packages, so you don't really get the flexibility that > > you mention. Even using the "Minimal" package group will install > > sendmail, CUPS, SSH and NFS (and mDNS on FC3, I think). > Mentioned. Could probably do more here, so I will look into adding more > detail. I think I really need to do some experimentation, but don't > have the facilities at the moment. FWIW, the relevent sections of the draft Installation Guide are complete. If you can't find relevent information there then feel free to ask. I've installed FC rather a lot already... and have more or less beaten VMWare into submission, so testing configurations is now a bit less onerous too. > > Strictly IMHO, disabling service accounts is often excessive and causes > > a maintenance problem. They can't login locally, and you can easily > > block remote logins (see above). > > Rahul mentioned something along these lines. Does anyone know for sure > if you remove a certain service that the user for that service is > removed as well? I don't remember for sure, but I believe that the user > remains. I believe so too, but haven't checked. Removal definitely leaves the configuration files behind. > > Section 4.2) > > > > "Then, either reboot your system, or issue the command pkill -1 sshd. > > The pkill command will force sshd to re-read it's configuration file. > > This will force users to login as a normal user account and then su to > > root, or utilize sudo." > However, I think that it might be valuable to kill existing connections (assuming that you have multiple > users, which I think I touched on this in the scope and intended > audience). If you have someone "unwanted" logged on while you're making > changes, booting them might be handy. Admittedly, it's unlikely, > however, possible. I think I'll mention both, with a caveat. It might be worth putting something as a general point at the start of the document - warning the reader to try not to allow network connections whilst carrying out lockdown, and advising that config changes will not affect existing connections. > The "general points" are valid, but may require > some "re-engineering" of the doc in its entirety, so I'll save that for > another time when I have a little more time to dedicate to it. I've > commented where I was able to make "quick changes". OK. I'll bear that in mind when I look at it again. Thanks for being a good sport about us bystanders picking holes in your doc. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From stickstr at cox.net Tue Jan 11 12:55:01 2005 From: stickstr at cox.net (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:55:01 -0500 Subject: Hardening Doc Update 2 In-Reply-To: <1105430674.3561.30.camel@bach> References: <1105214435.3328.5.camel@bach> <1105282097.11218.212321378@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1105430674.3561.30.camel@bach> Message-ID: <1105448101.25395.9.camel@bettie.internal.frields.org> On Tue, 2005-01-11 at 00:04 -0800, tuxxer wrote: > > Section 1.5.1) > > > > You've listed snortd, which doesn't ship with Fedora > > Core. > > > > I'm running snortd, so it showed up in the list when I ran the > command. ;-) If you're writing official documentation, it's probably a good idea for you to have a "stock" system to do fact-checking. Like you, I have a lot of things on my system that don't come with Fedora Core. I do testing for documentation either in a VMWare guest that has the stock distribution installed, or on a separate box. > > Strictly IMHO, disabling service accounts is often excessive and causes > > a maintenance problem. They can't login locally, and you can easily > > block remote logins (see above). > > Rahul mentioned something along these lines. Does anyone know for sure > if you remove a certain service that the user for that service is > removed as well? I don't remember for sure, but I believe that the user > remains. It differs from package to package. It also depends on what you mean when you say "remove a certain service." Are you talking about doing "chkconfig --del"? If so, then definitely not. But if you're talking about "rpm -e", then the answer is "sometimes." For instance, rpm -q --scripts bind rpm -q --scripts nfs-utils shows that bind nicely removes named when it is uninstalled, and nfs- utils does the same with its associated users. However, rpm -q --scripts httpd shows that httpd is not as good at cleaning up after itself. There may be a reason for this. For instance, if a system administrator is running a web server, but has the "userdel" command aliased under the root account to automatically use the "-r" option, and did "rpm -e httpd", then he would run the risk of deleting the entire /var/www, which is user apache's home directory. That's just idle speculation on my part; I have no idea whether there's a real rationale hidden in there or not. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From mreynolds at toplayer.com Sat Jan 15 10:40:32 2005 From: mreynolds at toplayer.com (mreynolds at toplayer.com) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 05:40:32 -0500 Subject: DNS failure since upgrade to fedora core 3 Message-ID: I had bind 9.X running under Fedora Core 2 and upgraded to Fedora core 3 I am not sure of the exact version on FC 2 but it is 9.2.4-2 on FC 3. It does not work anymore now and from some digging around I noticed that there are some changes in the named.conf Like the following which was not there before zone "testnet" IN { type master; file "testnet.zone" The db file seems ok and the service starts but any queries for that zone don't get an answer. Any information would be much appreciated. Thanks Micheal Reynolds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Jan 15 12:46:38 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 04:46:38 -0800 Subject: DNS failure since upgrade to fedora core 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1105793198.31480.6.camel@erato.phig.org> You'll have more luck taking this questions to fedora-list at redhat.com. The fedora-docs-list is for discussions _about_ documentation. :) Good luck, - Karsten On Sat, 2005-01-15 at 05:40 -0500, mreynolds at toplayer.com wrote: > I had bind 9.X running under Fedora Core 2 and upgraded to Fedora core > 3 > > > > I am not sure of the exact version on FC 2 but it is 9.2.4-2 on FC 3. > > > > It does not work anymore now and from some digging around I noticed > that there are some changes in the named.conf > > Like the following which was not there before > > zone "testnet" IN { > > type master; > > file "testnet.zone" > > > > The db file seems ok and the service starts but any queries for that > zone don't get an answer. > > > > Any information would be much appreciated. > > Thanks > > > > Micheal Reynolds > > > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Sr. Tech Writer a lemon is just a melon in disguise http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sat Jan 15 13:09:52 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:09:52 +0000 Subject: Screenshot Queries Message-ID: <1105794592.12167.212811875@webmail.messagingengine.com> I've done a full batch of screenshots for the Installation Guide, and the masters are here: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/screenshots/ Two rather silly queries regarding these: 1) The Documentation Guide specifies a width but not a height. What would be the best height to use ? 2) There are a lot of images, which means that organising them is a problem in itself. Is there a naming convention that I should use for the files ? FWIW, these were captured using VMWare. I found that many of the required images couldn't be captured with anaconda's --auto-screenshot because they were either text mode, or were dialog boxes. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From kwade at redhat.com Sat Jan 15 14:08:08 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 06:08:08 -0800 Subject: Screenshot Queries In-Reply-To: <1105794592.12167.212811875@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1105794592.12167.212811875@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1105798088.31480.32.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2005-01-15 at 13:09 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > I've done a full batch of screenshots for the Installation Guide, > and the masters are here: > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/screenshots/ The one I can see looks great. :) The others are 403 forbidden. :( > Two rather silly queries regarding these: > 1) The Documentation Guide specifies a width but not a height. > What would be the best height to use ? Generally, I'd say that if they are the correct width, the correct height is already there. Don't worry about it unless you have one that is particularly tall. In that case, consider reconfiguring the screenshot. None of that applies to Anaconda, since everything has the right aspect ratio. Might be different rule of thumb for PS/PDF, maybe four inches for letter size, you can calc the cm for A4 yourself :). > 2) There are a lot of images, which means that organising them is a > problem in itself. Is there a naming convention that I should use > for the files ? It appears you have them named in terms of the order they appear, with some nesting, and the name/nature of the screen. That seems about as sane a method as I can think of. I've seen them dropped into unique folders, one folder for every section of the install. This helps if you have a guide that covers multiple architectures and might have different screenshots for the same part of Anaconda. I don't think this applies for FC. > FWIW, these were captured using VMWare. I found that many of the > required images couldn't be captured with anaconda's > --auto-screenshot because they were either text mode, or were > dialog boxes. Cool, I'm glad you have VMWare available. For FC4, I'll help you look into Anaconda's screenshooter. If it is inadequate for the task, we'll file some feature requests. :) cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Sr. Tech Writer a lemon is just a melon in disguise http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sat Jan 15 15:07:35 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:07:35 +0000 Subject: Screenshot Queries In-Reply-To: <1105798088.31480.32.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1105794592.12167.212811875@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1105798088.31480.32.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1105801655.17432.212814772@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 06:08:08 -0800, "Karsten Wade" said: > On Sat, 2005-01-15 at 13:09 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > I've done a full batch of screenshots for the Installation Guide, > > and the masters are here: > > > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/screenshots/ > > The one I can see looks great. :) The others are 403 forbidden. :( D'oh. Now fixed. > > Two rather silly queries regarding these: > > > 1) The Documentation Guide specifies a width but not a height. > > What would be the best height to use ? > > Generally, I'd say that if they are the correct width, the correct > height is already there. Don't worry about it unless you have one that > is particularly tall. In that case, consider reconfiguring the > screenshot. None of that applies to Anaconda, since everything has the > right aspect ratio. > > Might be different rule of thumb for PS/PDF, maybe four inches for > letter size, you can calc the cm for A4 yourself :). I really am totally ignorant about the issues here, especially WRT generating PDFs... Does this mean that the EPS is simply embedded in the PDF in the same way that PNGs are embedded into the HTML page, without twiddling with the dimensions at all ? I live in an A4 country, but obviously most of the people printing the docs will be using letter size. > > 2) There are a lot of images, which means that organising them is a > > problem in itself. Is there a naming convention that I should use > > for the files ? > > I've seen them dropped into unique folders, one folder for every section > of the install. This helps if you have a guide that covers multiple > architectures and might have different screenshots for the same part of > Anaconda. I don't think this applies for FC. Official PPC support is on the FC4 features post that Bill Nottingham sent to the devel list, so we probably have to assume that this document will have to support additional architectures... I think that the only parts of the document that would vary by architecture would be the boot loader section and maybe the partitioning, but don't actually own any 64-bit or PPC systems. > > FWIW, these were captured using VMWare. I found that many of the > > required images couldn't be captured with anaconda's > > --auto-screenshot because they were either text mode, or were > > dialog boxes. > > Cool, I'm glad you have VMWare available. For FC4, I'll help you look > into Anaconda's screenshooter. If it is inadequate for the task, we'll > file some feature requests. :) That would be great. Even with the semi-official patch VMWare is very cranky on a FC3 host, and I don't expect that VMWare will track Fedora development on an ongoing basis. So I've started looking at alternate solutions. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From kwade at redhat.com Sun Jan 16 00:29:11 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:29:11 -0800 Subject: Screenshot Queries In-Reply-To: <1105801655.17432.212814772@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1105794592.12167.212811875@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1105798088.31480.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <1105801655.17432.212814772@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1105835351.31480.81.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2005-01-15 at 15:07 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 06:08:08 -0800, "Karsten Wade" > said: > > On Sat, 2005-01-15 at 13:09 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > > > I've done a full batch of screenshots for the Installation Guide, > > > and the masters are here: > > > > > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/screenshots/ > > > > The one I can see looks great. :) The others are 403 forbidden. :( > > D'oh. Now fixed. Yeah, they look good. > I really am totally ignorant about the issues here, especially WRT > generating PDFs... Does this mean that the EPS is simply embedded in > the PDF in the same way that PNGs are embedded into the HTML page, > without twiddling with the dimensions at all ? I live in an A4 country, > but obviously most of the people printing the docs will be using letter > size. There is only one way to find out ... embed the and see what happens. You can convert the PNG to EPS with the GIMP, then you can manage the sizes, etc. There are utilities to do this, too, making it easy to do batch processing. Same is true with GIMP, I suppose. Best thing is to embed an EPS with a PNG and see what happens when you make pdf: Fedora boot screen. I put the EPS first out of habit from a SGML DocBook workaround, it's kind of a magic formula. So, use it with a grain of salt. > Official PPC support is on the FC4 features post that Bill Nottingham > sent to the devel list, so we probably have to assume that this document > will have to support additional architectures... I think that the only > parts of the document that would vary by architecture would be the boot > loader section and maybe the partitioning, but don't actually own any > 64-bit or PPC systems. Good point, I just saw that. I think the reason for different directories was to make s more modular, so multiple guides could be built from the same pool. I don't think this applies much to our situation. I would say your convention is reasonable, and you can add a field on the end for arch where appropriate. If you haven't seen the conditionals in practice in XML, they let you mark an area of the markup as being specific to a certain condition. For example, you have a place in the install where PPC is different form x86, with different screenshots. You write up the two pieces and put them together in the XML, each marked with a conditional. Then you have build targets for the different archs, which pick up their own conditionals and ignore the others. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, Sr. Tech Writer a lemon is just a melon in disguise http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 From geekybodhi at rediffmail.com Sun Jan 23 22:04:35 2005 From: geekybodhi at rediffmail.com (Mayank Sharma) Date: 23 Jan 2005 22:04:35 -0000 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <20050123220435.27489.qmail@webmail27.rediffmail.com> Hello, I am Mayank Sharma, a freelance technical writer in New Delhi, India. I helped launch India's first magazine on Open Source -- LINUX For You. Currently am freelancing for OSTG (NewsForge, Linux.com, etc) and occasionally write for Linux Journal and OpenOffice.org as well. I am one of the silent subscribers of the list, but hope to change that status with this email. While working on an article on SELinux, I bumped into Karsten at #selinux. After a few hours we were discussing about the fedora docs, Karsten laying down the project's need for authors. Due to time considerations I can't (yet) author a doc, but I did volunteer to maintain the existing stock. Karsten thinks the Installation Guide would need multiple maintainers. So here I am ready to share the burden with Stuart. This (http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/) has been read and understod. Awaiting orders! ! Mayank geekybodhi.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tfox at redhat.com Mon Jan 24 00:37:36 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:37:36 -0500 Subject: Screenshot Queries In-Reply-To: <1105794592.12167.212811875@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1105794592.12167.212811875@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050124003736.GB25560@redhat.com> On Sat, Jan 15, 2005 at 01:09:52PM +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > I've done a full batch of screenshots for the Installation Guide, and > the masters are here: > > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/fedora/screenshots/ > > Two rather silly queries regarding these: > > 1) The Documentation Guide specifies a width but not a height. What > would be the best height to use ? > When you resize it, contrain proportions. The width maximum is for online viewing. Height doesn't matter as much. When we generate PDFs, the height will matter more because of page breaks, but the anaconda screenshots should be fine. > 2) There are a lot of images, which means that organising them is a > problem in itself. Is there a naming convention that I should use for > the files ? > The filenames you've used look fine -- descriptive of the screen itself. One suggestion I would make is to remove the numbers. Screens tend to be moved around in anaconda, and it could be confusing down the line as we start working on revisions of the Installation Guide. > FWIW, these were captured using VMWare. I found that many of the > required images couldn't be captured with anaconda's --auto-screenshot > because they were either text mode, or were dialog boxes. There is a way to capture screenshots for the "text" screens, although I've never quite figured it out. Someone on the anaconda team might be able to enlighten us if they are watching this list. For the dialogs, I've found success in using the manual screenshot feature of anaconda: Shift-PrtScreen. I can't remember, but you might have to use The GIMP to crop the dialog out after that. Tammy From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Mon Jan 24 11:28:44 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 03:28:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20050123220435.27489.qmail@webmail27.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <20050124112844.25015.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Mayank Sharma wrote: > Hello, > > I am Mayank Sharma, a freelance technical writer in > New Delhi, India. I helped launch India's first > magazine on Open Source -- LINUX For You. as a fellow freelance writer for Linux for you, I welcome you to the list! ===== Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From kwade at redhat.com Mon Jan 24 13:10:56 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:10:56 -0800 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20050123220435.27489.qmail@webmail27.rediffmail.com> References: <20050123220435.27489.qmail@webmail27.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <1106572257.4164.46.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-01-23 at 22:04 +0000, Mayank Sharma wrote: > Hello, > > I am Mayank Sharma, a freelance technical writer in New Delhi, India. > I helped launch India's first magazine on Open Source -- LINUX For > You. Currently am freelancing for OSTG (NewsForge, Linux.com, etc) and > occasionally write for Linux Journal and OpenOffice.org as well. I am > one of the silent subscribers of the list, but hope to change that > status with this email. Welcome! > While working on an article on SELinux, I bumped into Karsten at > #selinux. After a few hours we were discussing about the fedora docs, > Karsten laying down the project's need for authors. Due to time > considerations I can't (yet) author a doc, but I did volunteer to > maintain the existing stock. > > Karsten thinks the Installation Guide would need multiple maintainers. > So here I am ready to share the burden with Stuart. And now is when I should explain myself properly. :) Seeing the tremendous effort that Stuart has put into the Installation Guide (IG), I realized that for the long term, we could use a small team (2 to 4) for the IG to: 1) Work on new content/changes for upcoming releases, as soon as test1 is out or sooner. 2) Maintain the existing release, including bugfixes, content merges from the existing version to the upcoming version, and content merges coming the other way. At the moment, I was hoping Stuart might have some small creation tasks for Mayank, that is, help in finishing something that is unfinished. This is outside of the scope of what Mayank is available for, so I don't know if it will work. I could be overplaying the need for ongoing help with the IG, please correct me if I am! FWIW, I have tried to respond to all requests for Fedora documentation with a polite request for more writers. I think the FDP is a great place to get started for people who want to be more closely involved in open source development. Feel free to make such pleas yourselves, wherever you can. We can't be at fault for failing to create a tonne of documentation if the community hasn't first provided a tonne+1 writers. :) _ Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 IT executives rate Red Hat #1 for value http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Mon Jan 24 13:20:08 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:20:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <1106572257.4164.46.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050124132008.20846.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > At the moment, I was hoping Stuart might have some > small creation tasks > for Mayank, that is, help in finishing something > that is unfinished. > This is outside of the scope of what Mayank is > available for, so I don't > know if it will work. I believe co authoring specific portions of the installation guide and exchanging feedback on the rest would work > I could be overplaying the need for ongoing help > with the IG, please > correct me if I am! I think it does require more authors to participate. I have been giving all my feedback for every revision and I will continue doing that as long as I can > > FWIW, I have tried to respond to all requests for > Fedora documentation > with a polite request for more writers. I think the > FDP is a great > place to get started for people who want to be more > closely involved in > open source development. Feel free to make such > pleas yourselves, > wherever you can. We can't be at fault for failing > to create a tonne of > documentation if the community hasn't first provided > a tonne+1 > writers. :) there is a lot of distro neutral introductory stuff at tldp.org. I can provide you a good list of the best documents in that category. Would you consider linking to them from fedora.redhat.com/docs. how about bringing in stuff from fedoranews.org? ===== Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Mon Jan 24 14:24:18 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:24:18 +0000 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20050123220435.27489.qmail@webmail27.rediffmail.com> References: <20050123220435.27489.qmail@webmail27.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <1106576658.11772.213434029@webmail.messagingengine.com> I'm delighted to hear from you ! Since it will probably be easier to follow the thread, I'm going to do a longer response as a reply to Karsten's mail. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From geekybodhi at rediffmail.com Mon Jan 24 14:39:06 2005 From: geekybodhi at rediffmail.com (Mayank Sharma) Date: 24 Jan 2005 14:39:06 -0000 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <20050124143906.22949.qmail@webmail32.rediffmail.com> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 Karsten Wade wrote : > At the moment, I was hoping Stuart might have some small creation > tasks for Mayank, that is, help in finishing something that is > unfinished. > This is outside of the scope of what Mayank is available for, so I > don'tknow if it will work. > I knew maintaining would have some creation involved. Since I am working on FC3, certain portions wouldn't hurt :) Stuart is preparing a response to Karsten's email. We'll take it from there. ! Mayank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geekybodhi at yahoo.co.in Mon Jan 24 15:09:30 2005 From: geekybodhi at yahoo.co.in (Mayank Sharma) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:09:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Change of id Message-ID: <20050124150930.73633.qmail@web8503.mail.in.yahoo.com> RediffMail doesn't allow me much flexibility. Sorry for the trouble. New id: geekybodhi at yahoo.co.in ! Mayank ________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Mon Jan 24 16:02:57 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:02:57 +0000 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <1106572257.4164.46.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20050123220435.27489.qmail@webmail27.rediffmail.com> <1106572257.4164.46.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1106582577.26362.213434239@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:10:56 -0800, "Karsten Wade" said: > Seeing the tremendous effort that Stuart has put into the Installation > Guide (IG), I realized that for the long term, we could use a small team > (2 to 4) for the IG to: > > 1) Work on new content/changes for upcoming releases, as soon as test1 > is out or sooner. > > 2) Maintain the existing release, including bugfixes, content merges > from the existing version to the upcoming version, and content merges > coming the other way. I came to the same conclusion - that multiple maintainers are a necessity in the long term. My reasons were slightly different, though: 1) Single point of failure. ATM, whenever I'm ill, away etc. work stops altogether. 2) Fedora and Anaconda support a wider range of technology than a single person is likely to have access to, or use. I don't have any systems that are 64-bit, include wireless etc., so I can't document those features. There are also some software technologies that I don't have any experience of - Hesiod, software RAID setups etc. So any help is good, even if people only fill in gaps. > At the moment, I was hoping Stuart might have some small creation tasks > for Mayank, that is, help in finishing something that is unfinished. > This is outside of the scope of what Mayank is available for, so I don't > know if it will work. There are a number of areas where people can help, some small and other large (there are several unwritten sections). I'll post an update with a TODO file tonight, so Mayank can have a look and decide which bits he would feel comfortable tackling. > FWIW, I have tried to respond to all requests for Fedora documentation > with a polite request for more writers. I think the FDP is a great > place to get started for people who want to be more closely involved in > open source development. Feel free to make such pleas yourselves, > wherever you can. We can't be at fault for failing to create a tonne of > documentation if the community hasn't first provided a tonne+1 > writers. :) It may be that the project doesn't promote enough right now - I went from toying with the idea of writing documentation to doing it through going to an IRC "docs day" that was advertised on the main GNOME news site. The "GNOME Love" system is also an interesting model for attracting and mentoring new contributors. There are a number of approaches, but it really depends on how you would like to develop the project - you may only want the FDP to handle certain kinds of documentation, or feel that you don't want to push too hard before CVS is finalised. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Jan 25 01:07:58 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 01:07:58 +0000 Subject: Installation Guide 0.4.1 Message-ID: <1106615278.24740.213487157@webmail.messagingengine.com> DocBook: http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/fedora-install-guide-0.4.1.tar.gz HTML: http://www.se.clara.net/fedora/fedora-install-guide-en/index.html - Minor alterations. - Added (incomplete) Network Logins appendix. - Added TODO file. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Jan 25 01:28:02 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 01:28:02 +0000 Subject: Installation Guide TODO list Message-ID: <1106616482.26879.213487335@webmail.messagingengine.com> I've posted another build of the Installation Guide with a TODO file. To clarify this a bit: - The Known Issues are things that I can't check/don't know the answer to, but may be easy to fix. - Version 0.9 will be a test release that is announced on the main fedora-list. 0.9 requires the screenshots to be put in place and the core sections "Disk Partitioning" and "Boot Loader" to be complete. I don't consider it necessary to complete all of the appendices to release 0.9, but before release we will have to remove any appendices that are not considered complete. - Version 1.0 will be the release that is submitted for publication as the Fedora Core 3 Installation Guide. - The issues listed as "not required for 1.0" are things that I would like to include sometime in the future, but won't delay releases for. Most are small additions. Obviously, feel free to comment on, or propose amendments for, anything at all. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Jan 25 01:56:24 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 01:56:24 +0000 Subject: Screenshot Queries In-Reply-To: <20050124003736.GB25560@redhat.com> References: <1105794592.12167.212811875@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050124003736.GB25560@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1106618184.29283.213488640@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:37:36 -0500, "Tammy Fox" said: > On Sat, Jan 15, 2005 at 01:09:52PM +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > 1) The Documentation Guide specifies a width but not a height. What > > would be the best height to use ? > > > > When you resize it, contrain proportions. The width maximum is for > online viewing. Height doesn't matter as much. When we generate PDFs, > the height will matter more because of page breaks, but the anaconda > screenshots should be fine. The dimensions for the EPS images is the bit I don't understand very clearly. When I run 'make pdf' I get an A4 layout, but presumably the EPS has to be sized so that it looks OK on US Letter as well. > > 2) There are a lot of images, which means that organising them is a > > problem in itself. Is there a naming convention that I should use for > > the files ? > > > > The filenames you've used look fine -- descriptive of the screen > itself. One suggestion I would make is to remove the numbers. OK, I'll amend these. > > FWIW, these were captured using VMWare. I found that many of the > > required images couldn't be captured with anaconda's --auto-screenshot > > because they were either text mode, or were dialog boxes. > > There is a way to capture screenshots for the "text" screens, although > I've never quite figured it out. Someone on the anaconda team might be > able to enlighten us if they are watching this list. Looking back through the discussions on screenshots, I found this message from Karsten advising that the functionality was broken: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2004-August/msg00347.html I admit that I didn't experiment much, as I knew that I could get VMWare to produce something workable. Hopefully we can hash out a process for FC4. On my to-do list is trialing QEmu as a VMWare replacement, and that would get around the dependency on non-Free software, even though it's not very a elegant solution. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 25 08:54:00 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:54:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <1106616482.26879.213487335@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050125085400.35211.qmail@web8503.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > - Version 1.0 will be the release that is submitted > for publication as > the Fedora Core 3 Installation Guide. It would be much better to have it as the FC4 guide. this probably isnt much different from the fc3 installation so it shouldnt be too much additional work for you. when you announce your guide, you can post it to the fedora devel list and ask the developers for what stuff has changed in between fc3 and fc4 and verify that the guide is technical correct ===== Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Jan 25 11:00:38 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:00:38 +0000 Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <20050125085400.35211.qmail@web8503.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050125085400.35211.qmail@web8503.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1106650838.9416.213515140@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:54:00 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" said: > Hi > > > > > - Version 1.0 will be the release that is submitted > > for publication as > > the Fedora Core 3 Installation Guide. > > It would be much better to have it as the FC4 guide. > this probably isnt much different from the fc3 > installation so it shouldnt be too much additional > work for you. There is quite a long span between test1 and final, and judging by the previous release we have to assume that there will be a lot of changes made between test1 and final release. For example FC3 test 1 didn't have the Project Utopia stack, and that changed the whole OS when it went in. Xen, PUP and Fedora Extras are all in the early stages of development, and will probably require making multiple alterations to the documentation that the FDP supplies as they emerge. Also, FC3 has another year of updates left (counting Fedora Legacy support), so it will remain relevant for some time. For these reasons I would prefer to build a final release against FC3, and then fork development for an FC4 Installation Guide. Karsten's previous mail talked about splitting development between versions, and I agree with his comments. > when you announce your guide, you can post it to the > fedora devel list and ask the developers for what > stuff has changed in between fc3 and fc4 and verify > that the guide is technical correct I don't know how technical review will be arranged - the @redhat.com editors are best placed to say. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From geekybodhi at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 25 11:06:26 2005 From: geekybodhi at yahoo.co.in (Mayank Sharma) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:06:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <1106616482.26879.213487335@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050125110626.58766.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Stuart Ellis wrote: > I've posted another build of the Installation Guide > with a TODO file. Thanks for summing up the issues and giving them a timeframe. Below are some responses (keeping 0.9 in mind). These might have already been discussed, in which case archive URLs would be welcome. KNOWN ISSUES - Need to find a simpler way of formatting a USB device with the Fedora boot image ("Beginning the Installation"). You ask for a simpler method because of (a) Differences in media handling and (b) directory layout We could ask the fedora-devel for a standard method if it exists. Meanwhile, let's write the procedure as per FC3. We could start a maintainence file (!) that lists things (such as this) which need to checked with every release of FC. This would make maintaining the doc easier. - "Network Configuration" section does not document wireless. Your specific query: does Anaconda configure wireless interfaces? I have Linksys WMP11v4 cards. They get no special treatment from Ananconda in FC2 and FC3. We could check with the devel guys what chipsets they support (if any). - Kickstart option in Network Boot Services does not appear to work ("Configuring Network Installation Servers"). Haven't used kickstart ever. --- My TODO (in order of the probability of them getting done :) - Double check if Anaconda supports Wireless interfaces - Attempt on the missing sections/appendices - Get hold of a CompactFlash Card and a supporting BIOS and check whether it works as an install media or doesn't - Double Check if the Kickstart option in Network Boot Services works or not ! Mayank ________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 25 11:08:24 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:08:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <1106650838.9416.213515140@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050125110824.49900.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi Xen, PUP and Fedora Extras are all in the > early stages of > development, and will probably require making > multiple alterations to > the documentation that the FDP supplies as they > emerge. I am not sure xen requires many externally visible changes that should be covered in the installation guide. its fairly experimental for fedora now and something that can probably be configured *after* the installation if required pup and fedora extras can be covered as notes as expanded later > > Also, FC3 has another year of updates left (counting > Fedora Legacy > support), so it will remain relevant for some time. I am not saying fc3 is no more relevant. I am only concerned about yet another release getting out with no good docs targetting it. > > For these reasons I would prefer to build a final > release against FC3, > and then fork development for an FC4 Installation > Guide. Karsten's > previous mail talked about splitting development > between versions, and I > agree with his comments. ok. how about you doing the branch now and adding a todo for it adding notes on whats expected to change. I am actively following the fedora development tree (running rawhide) and lists (discussions on fedora extras, xen and what not) so I might be able to cover up the intial stuff necessary for getting a fc4 guide ready for the release. we shouldnt delay this waiting for something to be made perfect. a branch of the guide for fc4 is usable at this stage even now. lets get the ball rolling for this please ===== Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 25 11:14:28 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:14:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <20050125110626.58766.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050125111428.3340.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > > We could ask the fedora-devel for a standard method > if > it exists. this is part of a larger problem. we need the development list to cc the docs list for major changes and document them when necessary. following the gnome development model for this would be possible. it requires more coordination than the current state. fedora docs at present seems to be very isolated from the developers who need to concerned about the lack of documentation > Your specific query: does Anaconda configure > wireless > interfaces? > > I have Linksys WMP11v4 cards. They get no special > treatment from Ananconda in FC2 and FC3. We could > check with the devel guys what chipsets they support > (if any). http://www.redhat.com/magazine/003jan05/features/networkmanager/ scroll to the last section for more information. of course these might not be configured by anaconda at all > > > - Kickstart option in Network Boot Services does not > appear to work ("Configuring Network Installation > Servers"). again something that requires more coordination and active partcipation from the developers. we should not rely solely on authors to ask different places to get these kind of information ===== Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Jan 25 12:27:16 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:27:16 +0000 Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <20050125110626.58766.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050125110626.58766.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1106656036.16268.213518393@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:06:26 +0000 (GMT), "Mayank Sharma" said: > --- Stuart Ellis wrote: > > KNOWN ISSUES > > - Need to find a simpler way of formatting a USB > device with the Fedora boot image ("Beginning the > Installation"). > > We could ask the fedora-devel for a standard method if > it exists. That's one possible source of information (a longer comment is on my other mail). The issue is that the command-line specified is likely to be wrong because it is not guaranteed that your USB device will be /dev/sda1. So the ideal would be to specify a utility where the user can select from the available devices on their system. I'm happy to drop the step-by-step instructions if we can't feasibly give specific instructions that will be true for most cases. > Meanwhile, let's write the procedure as per > FC3. OK. Again, the thing that we have account for in our text is that the dev nodes and mount directories are not guaranteed. > We could start a maintainence file (!) that lists > things (such as this) which need to checked with every > release of FC. This would make maintaining the doc > easier. > I think that this is a great idea. > - "Network Configuration" section does not document > wireless. > > I have Linksys WMP11v4 cards. They get no special > treatment from Ananconda in FC2 and FC3. We could > check with the devel guys what chipsets they support > (if any). This is where I apologise for having no document specification to point to. These points probably haven't ever been written down: a) A hard requirement: our text has to apply to multiple architectures (32-bit PC, 64-bit and PPC), so architecture-specific references have to minimised. As an example - the text says "firmware, or BIOS", because BIOS is actually just the name of the 32-bit PC firmware. So we can't reference specific manufacturers and models of hardware in the main text. b) Objective: The IG text should document how to use anaconda to achieve things, rather than just stating what anaconda does. Hence the question - what happens if one of the interfaces is wireless ? Does the user have to add more settings, or can they verify that the wireless was configured correctly because they will be able to see it listed as an available interface ? Is there anything else that the user will need to do, or be aware of, in order for the wireless to work (in FC3 you probably have to enable NetworkManager) ? I don't know the answers to these questions... c) Objective: the text must be useful without offering detailed information which is not likely to apply to individual readers. Unecessary information makes the information that is relevent to the specific user harder to focus on. The best way I could think of to meet both b) and c) is to keep detailed, technical or highly information out of the main text. This is the logic behind putting "Network Logins" as an appendix, rather than including a description of the settings in the "System User" section. > > - Kickstart option in Network Boot Services does not > appear to work ("Configuring Network Installation > Servers"). > > Haven't used kickstart ever. Don't worry about it too much, then. It can be fixed by whoever writes the Kickstart appendix, since they will have a working Kickstart setup that they can test against. > --- > > My TODO (in order of the probability of them getting > done :) > Whatever you can do is helpful. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Jan 25 13:01:33 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:01:33 +0000 Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <20050125110824.49900.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050125110824.49900.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1106658093.20228.213521529@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:08:24 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" said: > > ok. how about you doing the branch now and adding a > todo for it adding notes on whats expected to change. > I am actively following the fedora development tree > (running rawhide) and lists (discussions on fedora > extras, xen and what not) so I might be able to cover > up the intial stuff necessary for getting a fc4 guide > ready for the release. The best thing to do is look at the TODO list in the tarball, which is essentially the roadmap (as I see it). A branch is feasible at 0.9 (test release to fedora-list). The easy way to see what "0.9" means is to grep through the Installation Guide FIXMEs and ignore the appendices, because we can drop them and still have a useful document. You will see: - 2 sections to be written (Paul Frields has offered to tackle "Disk Partitioning"). - About three TECHQUERYs in the main text (Mayank is looking at these). - Screenshots (see separate discussions, I've made the masters and am unsure how to handle the EPS). When these are resolved one way or another we can ship 0.9 to the fedora-list. At that point we have a publically available document and can start making noise at about it. I intend to ask for people to come in and help with 64-bit and PPC right from the initial post. With a visible document the FDP could also make a case for developers to become involved in technical review for 1.0. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Jan 25 13:18:10 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:18:10 +0000 Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <20050125111428.3340.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050125111428.3340.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1106659090.21823.213522990@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:14:28 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" said: > Hi > > > > > > > We could ask the fedora-devel for a standard method > > if > > it exists. > > this is part of a larger problem. we need the > development list to cc the docs list for major changes > and document them when necessary. following the gnome > development model for this would be possible. it > requires more coordination than the current state. > fedora docs at present seems to be very isolated from > the developers who need to concerned about the lack of > documentation I think that this a circular problem. Fedora and GNOME developers have seen the benefits of usability, so they push for better usability themselves. I don't think that documentation is seen as a critical part of developing useful software. Community documentation work is too fragmented to have a strong voice in development, and cannot point to any spectacular success in the same way that usability work has revolutionised GNOME. Short version - if we want developers to invest their time on documentation issues then documenters have to produce work that is high quality and visibly successful. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 25 12:50:20 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 04:50:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <1106656036.16268.213518393@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050125125020.15540.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Stuart Ellis wrote: Hi Is there > anything else that the user > will need to do, or be aware of, in order for the > wireless to work (in > FC3 you probably have to enable NetworkManager) ? network manager is mostly a beta release and is disabled by default in fc3 for that reason. add a warning note if you are going to suggest using that in the guide ===== Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jan 25 14:02:50 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:02:50 -0800 Subject: Screenshot Queries In-Reply-To: <1106618184.29283.213488640@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1105794592.12167.212811875@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050124003736.GB25560@redhat.com> <1106618184.29283.213488640@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1106661771.4164.99.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 01:56 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2004- > August/msg00347.html > > On my to-do list is trialing QEmu as a VMWare replacement, and > that would get around the dependency on non-Free software, even though > it's not very a elegant solution. You might also want to try Xen. Lots of activity happening in development. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 IT executives rate Red Hat #1 for value http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 25 13:25:50 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:25:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <1106659090.21823.213522990@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050125132550.51014.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > I think that this a circular problem. Fedora and > GNOME developers have > seen the benefits of usability, so they push for > better usability > themselves. I don't think that documentation is > seen as a critical > part of developing useful software. the point is thou that documentation is critical factor for many people. developers even if they dont write all the docs themselves should consider it important enough to cc the list and announce the important changes that should be documented gnome usability had a few important motivated developers concerned with it and moving forward inspite of the difficulties. we need a bunch of such people for the documentation team too. The document authors should not work in isolation. in many cases the work being documented is involved enough that its simply not possible to do so. When we have this installation document at 0.9, we can make some noise about this in the development list. Community > documentation work is too > fragmented to have a strong voice in development, > and cannot point to > any spectacular success in the same way that > usability work has > revolutionised GNOME. thats because the distributions themselves are fragmented to create very integrated documents.. thats out of scope to be discussing here thou my short version: get a 0.9 release out and make some noise about this for feedback in the users list and getting developers involved in the devel list ===== Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Jan 25 14:39:26 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:39:26 +0000 Subject: Screenshot Queries In-Reply-To: <1106661771.4164.99.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1105794592.12167.212811875@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20050124003736.GB25560@redhat.com> <1106618184.29283.213488640@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1106661771.4164.99.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1106663966.32232.213529142@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:02:50 -0800, "Karsten Wade" said: > On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 01:56 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2004- > > August/msg00347.html > > > > On my to-do list is trialing QEmu as a VMWare replacement, and > > that would get around the dependency on non-Free software, even though > > it's not very a elegant solution. > > You might also want to try Xen. Lots of activity happening in > development. > It sounds stunning, and I'll definitely be giving it a go when test 1 comes out. I'm interested in QEmu because it looks like an almost drop-in replacement for VMWare - about the same level of invasiveness (or less) and it even claims to take VMWare disk images. I need to keep Windows images around... -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Jan 25 14:54:27 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:54:27 -0000 (GMT) Subject: PDF Generation broken. Message-ID: <48722.193.195.148.66.1106664867.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Dear all, I just wanted to bring this to everyones attention. I have been chatting to Kwade about this over on the #fedora-docs irc channel and he is aware that this is still broken. It has been since Fedora was announced. I have testing as much as I can, and xmlto seem to be fine, it's the tex part that breaks whenever there are itemizedlist's I am quite happily generating PDF when these are not in the xml doc. What can I do to fix this? Also, page headers i.e. the documents name don't span the to of the PDF properly. Is this a xslt issue? Thanks, Gavin. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1467 624141 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From stickstr at cox.net Tue Jan 25 13:51:01 2005 From: stickstr at cox.net (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:51:01 -0500 Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <1106658093.20228.213521529@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20050125110824.49900.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1106658093.20228.213521529@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1106661061.5179.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 13:01 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:08:24 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" > said: > > > > ok. how about you doing the branch now and adding a > > todo for it adding notes on whats expected to change. > > I am actively following the fedora development tree > > (running rawhide) and lists (discussions on fedora > > extras, xen and what not) so I might be able to cover > > up the intial stuff necessary for getting a fc4 guide > > ready for the release. > > The best thing to do is look at the TODO list in the tarball, which is > essentially the roadmap (as I see it). A branch is feasible at 0.9 > (test release to fedora-list). > > The easy way to see what "0.9" means is to grep through the Installation > Guide FIXMEs and ignore the appendices, because we can drop them and > still have a useful document. You will see: > > - 2 sections to be written (Paul Frields has offered to tackle "Disk > Partitioning"). > - About three TECHQUERYs in the main text (Mayank is looking at these). > - Screenshots (see separate discussions, I've made the masters and am > unsure how to handle the EPS). > > When these are resolved one way or another we can ship 0.9 to the > fedora-list. At that point we have a publically available document and > can start making noise at about it. I intend to ask for people to come > in and help with 64-bit and PPC right from the initial post. With a > visible document the FDP could also make a case for developers to become > involved in technical review for 1.0. Speaking of which, I have started work on the Disk Partitioning section, but discovered that my way of tackling it was, to be blunt, stupid. I decided to make the actual Disk Partitioning chapter purely about the mechanics of installation, and refer the reader to an additional appendix which would explain disk geometry and how to understand partitioning (how it works, and how to design partitioning for a particular system). This means that I have to mark significant sections of the parts I'm writing with a conditional that qualifies them for "x86" architecture only. Can anyone remind me of the means for doing so in DocBook/XML? Feel free to respond offlist, otherwise I'll just search the archives when I have time, assuming the search engine actually works. :-) I did a crummy job of estimating my time the last few weeks; work has demanded more of my hours than I expected, so the progress is slow. But I will redouble my efforts this week. For anyone who cares, please also note my new email address. The frields.com domain owners shut the doors to their hosting business December 31st, and did not notify me. They still own the domain but it doesn't "do" anything for the time being. If you sent me anything since mid-December, and you have the ability, you may want to resend. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From stickstr at cox.net Tue Jan 25 13:51:01 2005 From: stickstr at cox.net (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:51:01 -0500 Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <1106658093.20228.213521529@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20050125110824.49900.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1106658093.20228.213521529@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1106661061.5179.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 13:01 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:08:24 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" > said: > > > > ok. how about you doing the branch now and adding a > > todo for it adding notes on whats expected to change. > > I am actively following the fedora development tree > > (running rawhide) and lists (discussions on fedora > > extras, xen and what not) so I might be able to cover > > up the intial stuff necessary for getting a fc4 guide > > ready for the release. > > The best thing to do is look at the TODO list in the tarball, which is > essentially the roadmap (as I see it). A branch is feasible at 0.9 > (test release to fedora-list). > > The easy way to see what "0.9" means is to grep through the Installation > Guide FIXMEs and ignore the appendices, because we can drop them and > still have a useful document. You will see: > > - 2 sections to be written (Paul Frields has offered to tackle "Disk > Partitioning"). > - About three TECHQUERYs in the main text (Mayank is looking at these). > - Screenshots (see separate discussions, I've made the masters and am > unsure how to handle the EPS). > > When these are resolved one way or another we can ship 0.9 to the > fedora-list. At that point we have a publically available document and > can start making noise at about it. I intend to ask for people to come > in and help with 64-bit and PPC right from the initial post. With a > visible document the FDP could also make a case for developers to become > involved in technical review for 1.0. Speaking of which, I have started work on the Disk Partitioning section, but discovered that my way of tackling it was, to be blunt, stupid. I decided to make the actual Disk Partitioning chapter purely about the mechanics of installation, and refer the reader to an additional appendix which would explain disk geometry and how to understand partitioning (how it works, and how to design partitioning for a particular system). This means that I have to mark significant sections of the parts I'm writing with a conditional that qualifies them for "x86" architecture only. Can anyone remind me of the means for doing so in DocBook/XML? Feel free to respond offlist, otherwise I'll just search the archives when I have time, assuming the search engine actually works. :-) I did a crummy job of estimating my time the last few weeks; work has demanded more of my hours than I expected, so the progress is slow. But I will redouble my efforts this week. For anyone who cares, please also note my new email address. The frields.com domain owners shut the doors to their hosting business December 31st, and did not notify me. They still own the domain but it doesn't "do" anything for the time being. If you sent me anything since mid-December, and you have the ability, you may want to resend. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From stickstr at cox.net Tue Jan 25 13:40:27 2005 From: stickstr at cox.net (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:40:27 -0500 Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <1106658093.20228.213521529@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20050125110824.49900.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1106658093.20228.213521529@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1106660427.4918.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 13:01 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:08:24 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" > said: > > > > ok. how about you doing the branch now and adding a > > todo for it adding notes on whats expected to change. > > I am actively following the fedora development tree > > (running rawhide) and lists (discussions on fedora > > extras, xen and what not) so I might be able to cover > > up the intial stuff necessary for getting a fc4 guide > > ready for the release. > > The best thing to do is look at the TODO list in the tarball, which is > essentially the roadmap (as I see it). A branch is feasible at 0.9 > (test release to fedora-list). > > The easy way to see what "0.9" means is to grep through the Installation > Guide FIXMEs and ignore the appendices, because we can drop them and > still have a useful document. You will see: > > - 2 sections to be written (Paul Frields has offered to tackle "Disk > Partitioning"). > - About three TECHQUERYs in the main text (Mayank is looking at these). > - Screenshots (see separate discussions, I've made the masters and am > unsure how to handle the EPS). > > When these are resolved one way or another we can ship 0.9 to the > fedora-list. At that point we have a publically available document and > can start making noise at about it. I intend to ask for people to come > in and help with 64-bit and PPC right from the initial post. With a > visible document the FDP could also make a case for developers to become > involved in technical review for 1.0. Speaking of which, I have started work on the Disk Partitioning section, but discovered that my way of tackling it was, to be blunt, stupid. I decided to make the actual Disk Partitioning chapter purely about the mechanics of installation, and refer the reader to an additional appendix which would explain disk geometry and how to understand partitioning (how it works, and how to design partitioning for a particular system). This means that I have to mark significant sections of the parts I'm writing with a conditional that qualifies them for "x86" architecture only. Can anyone remind me of the means for doing so in DocBook/XML? Feel free to respond offlist, otherwise I'll just search the archives when I have time, assuming the search engine actually works. :-) I did a crummy job of estimating my time the last few weeks; work has demanded more of my hours than I expected, so the progress is slow. But I will redouble my efforts this week. For anyone who cares, please also note my new email address. The frields.com domain owners shut the doors to their hosting business December 31st, and did not notify me. They still own the domain but it doesn't "do" anything for the time being. If you sent me anything since mid-December, and you have the ability, you may want to resend. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Jan 25 15:07:37 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:07:37 +0000 Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <20050125132550.51014.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050125132550.51014.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1106665657.5440.213530700@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:25:50 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" said: > Hi > > > > > I think that this a circular problem. Fedora and > > GNOME developers have > > seen the benefits of usability, so they push for > > better usability > > themselves. I don't think that documentation is > > seen as a critical > > part of developing useful software. > > the point is thou that documentation is critical > factor for many people. developers even if they dont > write all the docs themselves should consider it > important enough to cc the list and announce the > important changes that should be documented I tend to see it slightly differently. Unless there is an active documentation project and viable documentation, what basis is there for asking for other people to invest their time in any way ? So asking for technical reviews, CC etc. is reasonable only if there are community-supported documents. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 25 12:50:20 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 04:50:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <1106656036.16268.213518393@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050125125020.15540.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Stuart Ellis wrote: Hi Is there > anything else that the user > will need to do, or be aware of, in order for the > wireless to work (in > FC3 you probably have to enable NetworkManager) ? network manager is mostly a beta release and is disabled by default in fc3 for that reason. add a warning note if you are going to suggest using that in the guide ===== Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 25 14:52:36 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:52:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Screenshot Queries In-Reply-To: <1106663966.32232.213529142@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050125145236.7309.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi I'm interested in QEmu because it looks > like an almost > drop-in replacement for VMWare - about the same > level of invasiveness > (or less) and it even claims to take VMWare disk > images. I need to keep > Windows images around... yes qemu is more close to what vmware does but the amount of work being done to integrate xen would mean that you can potentially do the same thing with xen itself. just something to keep in mind ===== Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From ikrakow_1999 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 25 16:05:41 2005 From: ikrakow_1999 at yahoo.com (Ira Krakow) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:05:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Screenshot Queries In-Reply-To: <1106663966.32232.213529142@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050125160541.15118.qmail@web50901.mail.yahoo.com> Karsten, Have you considered Wine, at: http://www.winehq.org It's an open source software implementation of the Windows API in Wine. You don't need a Windows license You can install your Windows programs from the CD into a "fake" C drive (symlinked to a Linux directory) and run it with: $ wine windows-program.exe Tools such as regedit are available as well, for tweaking the installation. Ira From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Tue Jan 25 15:17:33 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:17:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <1106665657.5440.213530700@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050125151733.8570.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > I tend to see it slightly differently. Unless there > is an active > documentation project and viable documentation, what > basis is there for > asking for other people to invest their time in any > way ? So asking for > technical reviews, CC etc. is reasonable only if > there are > community-supported documents. your document at version 0.9 would potentially be good enough and important to make some noise and generally keep developers aware of whats expected ===== Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Jan 25 17:04:13 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:04:13 +0000 Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <20050125151733.8570.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050125151733.8570.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1106672653.22069.213543354@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:17:33 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" said: > Hi > > > > I tend to see it slightly differently. Unless there > > is an active > > documentation project and viable documentation, what > > basis is there for > > asking for other people to invest their time in any > > way ? So asking for > > technical reviews, CC etc. is reasonable only if > > there are > > community-supported documents. > > your document at version 0.9 would potentially be good > enough and important to make some noise and generally > keep developers aware of whats expected Well, there has to be base of contributors and documents for them to work with first, otherwise who would they be sending mails to ? :) My hope is that posting a test release will attract a couple more contributors, and that things will continue to move forward. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Jan 26 09:23:12 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 01:23:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Installation Guide TODO list In-Reply-To: <1106672653.22069.213543354@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050126092312.62061.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > Well, there has to be base of contributors and > documents for them to > work with first, otherwise who would they be sending > mails to ? :) this list ===== Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jan 27 02:32:34 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:32:34 -0800 Subject: PDF Generation broken. In-Reply-To: <48722.193.195.148.66.1106664867.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <48722.193.195.148.66.1106664867.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1106793155.14110.47.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 14:54 +0000, Gavin Henry wrote: > Dear all, > > I just wanted to bring this to everyones attention. I have been chatting > to Kwade about this over on the #fedora-docs irc channel and he is aware > that this is still broken. It has been since Fedora was announced. > > I have testing as much as I can, and xmlto seem to be fine, it's the tex > part that breaks whenever there are itemizedlist's > > I am quite happily generating PDF when these are not in the xml doc. > > What can I do to fix this? I'm poking Tim for some input. Do you have some example XML? > Also, page headers i.e. the documents name don't span the to of the PDF > properly. Is this a xslt issue? Dunno, haven't had the time to peel back the layers, but I want to Real Soon Now. This doesn't help you now, though. I don't fully understand the issues. IIRC, we were discussing using fop instead of the tex backend for pdf generation. Is one of our barriers that there is no fop package for Fedora? And we want it compiled with gcj? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 IT executives rate Red Hat #1 for value http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ From twaugh at redhat.com Thu Jan 27 10:56:12 2005 From: twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:56:12 +0000 Subject: PDF Generation broken. In-Reply-To: <1106793155.14110.47.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <48722.193.195.148.66.1106664867.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1106793155.14110.47.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050127105612.GM5322@redhat.com> On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 06:32:34PM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > I'm poking Tim for some input. The xmltex and passivetex applications are no longer supported upstream. I think the new way is to use some sort of ConTeXt-based parser, but don't know the details. > I don't fully understand the issues. IIRC, we were discussing using fop > instead of the tex backend for pdf generation. Is one of our barriers > that there is no fop package for Fedora? And we want it compiled with > gcj? If we had a fop package for Fedora, and someone was willing to make the necessary adjustments to xmlto, I feel sure that things would be bound to improve. Tim. */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Thu Jan 27 11:20:19 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:20:19 -0000 (GMT) Subject: PDF Generation broken. In-Reply-To: <20050127105612.GM5322@redhat.com> References: <48722.193.195.148.66.1106664867.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com><1106793155.14110.47.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050127105612.GM5322@redhat.com> Message-ID: <44758.193.195.148.66.1106824819.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 06:32:34PM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > >> I'm poking Tim for some input. > > The xmltex and passivetex applications are no longer supported > upstream. I think the new way is to use some sort of ConTeXt-based > parser, but don't know the details. > >> I don't fully understand the issues. IIRC, we were discussing using fop >> instead of the tex backend for pdf generation. Is one of our barriers >> that there is no fop package for Fedora? And we want it compiled with >> gcj? > > If we had a fop package for Fedora, and someone was willing to make > the necessary adjustments to xmlto, I feel sure that things would be > bound to improve. When do we start? > > Tim. > */ > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Thu Jan 27 12:51:52 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:51:52 +0000 Subject: PDF Generation broken. In-Reply-To: <44758.193.195.148.66.1106824819.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <48722.193.195.148.66.1106664867.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com><1106793155.14110.47.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050127105612.GM5322@redhat.com> <44758.193.195.148.66.1106824819.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1106830312.22214.213701843@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:20:19 -0000 (GMT), "Gavin Henry" said: > > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 06:32:34PM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > > If we had a fop package for Fedora, and someone was willing to make > > the necessary adjustments to xmlto, I feel sure that things would be > > bound to improve. As a practical matter, what should document authors be doing at this point ? I'm going to spend some more time this weekend on putting the screenshots into the Installation Guide, so I can try to figure out correct dimensions on the EPS files, build PDFs (albeit with broken headings) and guinea pig anything else that people would like. On the other hand, if PDF output is Officially Broken then should I be leaving out the EPS stuff from the DocBook source that I push out ? -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jan 27 22:34:27 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:34:27 -0800 Subject: PDF Generation broken. In-Reply-To: <1106830312.22214.213701843@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <48722.193.195.148.66.1106664867.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1106793155.14110.47.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050127105612.GM5322@redhat.com> <44758.193.195.148.66.1106824819.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1106830312.22214.213701843@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1106865267.14110.87.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 12:51 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:20:19 -0000 (GMT), "Gavin Henry" > said: > > > > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 06:32:34PM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > If we had a fop package for Fedora, and someone was willing to make > > > the necessary adjustments to xmlto, I feel sure that things would be > > > bound to improve. > > As a practical matter, what should document authors be doing at this > point ? > > I'm going to spend some more time this weekend on putting the > screenshots into the Installation Guide, so I can try to figure out > correct dimensions on the EPS files, build PDFs (albeit with broken > headings) and guinea pig anything else that people would like. > > On the other hand, if PDF output is Officially Broken then should I be > leaving out the EPS stuff from the DocBook source that I push out ? Personally, I'd make the doc PDF capable while it was fresh and in front of me, rather then going in to backfill that work later. Unless time required otherwise. In the long run, the time won't be wasted. PDF will eventually work. OTOH, if you want dispensation to drop the EPS work because PDF is broken, by all means, go ahead. ;-) It won't be _that_ much harder to do it later instead. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 IT executives rate Red Hat #1 for value http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Fri Jan 28 09:42:02 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:42:02 +0000 Subject: PDF Generation broken. In-Reply-To: <1106865267.14110.87.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <48722.193.195.148.66.1106664867.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1106793155.14110.47.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050127105612.GM5322@redhat.com> <44758.193.195.148.66.1106824819.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1106830312.22214.213701843@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1106865267.14110.87.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1106905322.17854.213780107@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:34:27 -0800, "Karsten Wade" said: > > Personally, I'd make the doc PDF capable while it was fresh and in front > of me, rather then going in to backfill that work later. Unless time > required otherwise. In the long run, the time won't be wasted. PDF > will eventually work. > > OTOH, if you want dispensation to drop the EPS work because PDF is > broken, by all means, go ahead. ;-) It won't be _that_ much harder to > do it later instead. You've pinpointed my inner conflict :-) I would like this to work and I don't mind putting some time in, but it seems a waste to prep and ship a bunch of files that don't do anything. I'll do them and make sure the PDF builds, and will perhaps ship the test release without them if the functionality is still broken. Those of us poor souls who are still on dial-up are very conscious about file sizes :-) -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Fri Jan 28 12:56:58 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:56:58 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Fedora Documentation Search Engine Message-ID: <62276.193.195.148.66.1106917018.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Dear all, Has there been any discussion about this? I thinking along the lines of htdig/swish-e that indexes all man pages/howto/README after every rpm is installed. Something like a post entry in the spec file, or similar. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1467 624141 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Fri Jan 28 14:21:54 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:21:54 +0000 Subject: Fedora Documentation Search Engine In-Reply-To: <62276.193.195.148.66.1106917018.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <62276.193.195.148.66.1106917018.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1106922114.10686.213795356@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:56:58 -0000 (GMT), "Gavin Henry" said: > Dear all, > > Has there been any discussion about this? > > I thinking along the lines of htdig/swish-e that indexes all man > pages/howto/README after every rpm is installed. > > Something like a post entry in the spec file, or similar. I haven't seen any on this list, but essentially this is a function of having a desktop search/indexing engine since there isn't a common format to this stuff. The next release of yelp (GNOME help browser) will display info and man pages, but can't index the random txt, html, pdf etc. that goes into /usr/share/doc/. As a non-technical workaround I wrote a Docbook section for the Installation Guide explaining how to find the various sets of documentation in Fedora, which is currently in my offcuts folder. It's a bad situation for new users at the moment... -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Fri Jan 28 14:39:32 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:39:32 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Fedora Documentation Search Engine In-Reply-To: <1106922114.10686.213795356@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <62276.193.195.148.66.1106917018.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1106922114.10686.213795356@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <39481.193.195.148.66.1106923172.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:56:58 -0000 (GMT), "Gavin Henry" > said: >> Dear all, >> >> Has there been any discussion about this? >> >> I thinking along the lines of htdig/swish-e that indexes all man >> pages/howto/README after every rpm is installed. >> >> Something like a post entry in the spec file, or similar. > > I haven't seen any on this list, but essentially this is a function of > having a desktop search/indexing engine since there isn't a common > format to this stuff. The next release of yelp (GNOME help browser) > will display info and man pages, but can't index the random txt, html, > pdf etc. that goes into /usr/share/doc/. We heavily use Swish-e (www.swish-e.org) for the fileservers we install. This can handle html, xhtml, txt, pdf and the like. Maybe something like this or a updatedocdb crontab, like slocate has and we just put the standard doc pathnames in a config file. The customize the web search page. > > As a non-technical workaround I wrote a Docbook section for the > Installation Guide explaining how to find the various sets of > documentation in Fedora, which is currently in my offcuts folder. It's > a bad situation for new users at the moment... > -- > > Stuart Ellis > s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Fri Jan 28 15:24:30 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:24:30 +0000 Subject: Fedora Documentation Search Engine In-Reply-To: <39481.193.195.148.66.1106923172.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <62276.193.195.148.66.1106917018.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1106922114.10686.213795356@webmail.messagingengine.com> <39481.193.195.148.66.1106923172.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1106925870.17971.213800026@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:39:32 -0000 (GMT), "Gavin Henry" said: > > > > > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:56:58 -0000 (GMT), "Gavin Henry" > > said: > >> Dear all, > >> > >> Has there been any discussion about this? > >> > >> I thinking along the lines of htdig/swish-e that indexes all man > >> pages/howto/README after every rpm is installed. > >> > >> Something like a post entry in the spec file, or similar. > > > > I haven't seen any on this list, but essentially this is a function of > > having a desktop search/indexing engine since there isn't a common > > format to this stuff. The next release of yelp (GNOME help browser) > > will display info and man pages, but can't index the random txt, html, > > pdf etc. that goes into /usr/share/doc/. > > We heavily use Swish-e (www.swish-e.org) for the fileservers we install. > This can handle html, xhtml, txt, pdf and the like. I've just looked at the page now, but it looks like a very useful bit of software. > Maybe something like this or a updatedocdb crontab, like slocate has and > we just put the standard doc pathnames in a config file. The customize > the > web search page. > My understanding is that this is where things become quite technical and problematic. There is always a disjunct between what's actually on the disk and what is listed in the index. On portable computers it's harder to guarantee that batch indexing jobs will be completed regularly as well. Beagle and Spotlight use kernel hooks to update the index as changes occur. I suppose that RPM packages could run post-install scripts that update a document registry (kind of like you suggested) would be a relatively non-invasive way to implement something. I definitely think that the default start page of the Web browser could be used very effectively by the docs project. The details of implementing an index might be a good question for fedora-devel. -- Stuart Ellis s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jan 28 15:46:26 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:46:26 -0800 Subject: Fedora Documentation Search Engine In-Reply-To: <1106922114.10686.213795356@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <62276.193.195.148.66.1106917018.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1106922114.10686.213795356@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1106927187.14110.145.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-01-28 at 14:21 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:56:58 -0000 (GMT), "Gavin Henry" > said: > > Dear all, > > > > Has there been any discussion about this? > > > > I thinking along the lines of htdig/swish-e that indexes all man > > pages/howto/README after every rpm is installed. > > > > Something like a post entry in the spec file, or similar. > > I haven't seen any on this list, but essentially this is a function of > having a desktop search/indexing engine since there isn't a common > format to this stuff. The next release of yelp (GNOME help browser) > will display info and man pages, but can't index the random txt, html, > pdf etc. that goes into /usr/share/doc/. One reason I like yelp is because it can (aiui) render straight XML, so we could put the entire fedora-docs tree on an install. I've discussed with others the idea of having docs be more modular so they can be linked via metadata to yelp topics. This all supposes support by the underlying yelp code. I like the idea of separately indexing documentation, both as a cron job and as part of the package install process. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 IT executives rate Red Hat #1 for value http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/