From bubudiu2005 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 3 16:06:40 2005 From: bubudiu2005 at yahoo.co.uk (Captain Bubudiu) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:06:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fedora Firefox Start Page Message-ID: <20050703160640.74784.qmail@web26304.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> *(Note originally posted to fedora-list and posted here after Rahul suggested i post here.) Someone on the fedoraforum did an FC4 startpage. (See http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=60978) I did an FC3 version with the FC3 release notes at - start page http://members.lycos.co.uk/bubudiu/start/ - files (start.tar.gz) http://members.lycos.co.uk/bubudiu/start.tar.gz Anyone know of similar efforts/improvements? Anyone have a good fedora related bookmarks? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fedora Core - The power of Open Source Now! Please search the archives and http://fedoraforum.org as the question is likely to have been asked before. RH9 -> FC3 -> FC6 (Jan 2007) Catch me at http://members.lycos.co.uk/bubudiu/ Ah the beauty of it all! Cheers Captain Bubudiu ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From stuart at elsn.org Fri Jul 8 21:20:08 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 22:20:08 +0100 Subject: tidy-bowl - BETA invitation! In-Reply-To: <20050628154255.12cebe1d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1119990281.7165.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050628154255.12cebe1d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1120857608.5370.11.camel@Vigor10> I've been using xml-normalize and also tidy-bowl locally, and they both seem to work perfectly :) The first test document I used with tidy-bowl was edited with emacs/nxml and it realigned the text correctly. I also messed around with spacing and text alignment within xml-normalize. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 22:10:16 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:10:16 -0400 Subject: tidy-bowl - BETA invitation! In-Reply-To: <1120857608.5370.11.camel@Vigor10> References: <1119990281.7165.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050628154255.12cebe1d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1120857608.5370.11.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1120860616.5101.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 22:20 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > I've been using xml-normalize and also tidy-bowl locally, and they both > seem to work perfectly :) > > The first test document I used with tidy-bowl was edited with emacs/nxml > and it realigned the text correctly. I also messed around with spacing > and text alignment within xml-normalize. Thanks for testing this stuff. The documents I've done seem to work great. Has anyone else done any local comparisons? Before this gets moved up to include all modules, Tommy and/or I will probably implement some of the content testing code which ensures that the "after" document retains all the content of the original. This would assure us that any absolute weirdness in the program would keep it from munging up someone's nice document on the way to the repository. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 8 22:41:44 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:41:44 -0700 Subject: tidy-bowl - BETA invitation! In-Reply-To: <1120857608.5370.11.camel@Vigor10> References: <1119990281.7165.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050628154255.12cebe1d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1120857608.5370.11.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1120862504.5937.210.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 22:20 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > I've been using xml-normalize and also tidy-bowl locally, and they both > seem to work perfectly :) > > The first test document I used with tidy-bowl was edited with emacs/nxml > and it realigned the text correctly. I also messed around with spacing > and text alignment within xml-normalize. I did some runs using ../docs-common/bin/tidy-bowl against the SELinux FAQ, which I *believed* to be a shining example of correct indentation, etc. Apparently I have some extra whitespace in there. :) I also had to reindent using the 72 characters width before running a meaningful diff. http://people.redhat.com/kwade/fedora-docs/selinux-faq-post_tidy-bowl.diff Every piece of that file had sgml-fill-element used (C-c C-q), save the flush-left et al. I would have expected zero or a few differences. Let's look at the kind of diffs generated: * Whitespace decisions -- that seems to come from "para normalize = yes". I can accept that I have extraneous whitespace, and it was picked up and fixed. That's good. * Some tags have breaks before and after, perhaps meaning they are not being recognized as inline. These include and . I suppose I should put a line in xmlformat-fdp.conf, except there is one for already to make it inline. Hmmm. I tried adding "entry- break" and "exit-break" set to 0 for ulink, but it still makes line breaks. * A number of paragraphs appear to have been indented by a single space. These might have been spaces-not-tabs indents that I didn't clean up after I fixed my .emacs to stop doing that. I.e., I went back to using tabs-as-tabs to match with the default Emacs install on Fedora Core, but I may not have fixed up this document and it is using spaces-as-tabs. * All of my double-spaces after periods have been replaced with single- spaces. I thought that DocBook liked the double-space after a period? Or am I just left in the typewriter age on that one? On the whole, the document looks as if it is better and certainly more normalized for the treatment. Hopefully my mysteries aren't that mysterious. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Fri Jul 8 23:59:31 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:59:31 +0100 Subject: tidy-bowl - BETA invitation! In-Reply-To: <1120862504.5937.210.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1119990281.7165.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050628154255.12cebe1d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1120857608.5370.11.camel@Vigor10> <1120862504.5937.210.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1120867171.6917.28.camel@Vigor10> On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 15:41 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > * Some tags have breaks before and after, perhaps meaning they are not > being recognized as inline. These include and . I > suppose I should put a line in xmlformat-fdp.conf, except there is one > for already to make it inline. Hmmm. I tried adding "entry- > break" and "exit-break" set to 0 for ulink, but it still makes line > breaks. That's odd. I tend to put links outside of the main text, so I didn't see this. A link: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/selinux-apache-fc3/ > * A number of paragraphs appear to have been indented by a single space. > These might have been spaces-not-tabs indents that I didn't clean up > after I fixed my .emacs to stop doing that. I.e., I went back to using > tabs-as-tabs to match with the default Emacs install on Fedora Core, but > I may not have fixed up this document and it is using spaces-as-tabs. My pgsgml-processed documents have the columns indented with a single tab, which tidy-bowl converts to 7 spaces. > * All of my double-spaces after periods have been replaced with single- > spaces. I thought that DocBook liked the double-space after a period? > Or am I just left in the typewriter age on that one? I automatically double-space after a period when typing, but I've noticed that pgsgml would reset my spacing variably. Those documents were written with emacs 21 (standard FC3 package) and pgsgml, and the setup may have been mildly broken, so YMMV. I've been editing them with FC4 emacs and Tim Waugh's nxml package before passing them to tidy-bowl. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Sun Jul 10 11:15:08 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:15:08 +0100 Subject: tidy-bowl - BETA invitation! In-Reply-To: <1120867171.6917.28.camel@Vigor10> References: <1119990281.7165.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050628154255.12cebe1d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1120857608.5370.11.camel@Vigor10> <1120862504.5937.210.camel@erato.phig.org> <1120867171.6917.28.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <1120994109.3953.12.camel@Vigor10> On Sat, 2005-07-09 at 00:59 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 15:41 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > * All of my double-spaces after periods have been replaced with single- > > spaces. I thought that DocBook liked the double-space after a period? > > Or am I just left in the typewriter age on that one? Further to this, I checked and single space after period is now the generally accepted convention for electronic and printed documents. Doublespace is for monospace lettering/fonts, so it's right when using a typewriter. So tidy-bowl/xmlformat is doing the right thing, and we need to change our typing habits :) -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 12 23:17:48 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:17:48 -0700 Subject: minutes FDSCo meeting 12 July 2005 Message-ID: <1121210268.26925.53.camel@erato.phig.org> /me sings ~\o ... in a blaze of glory ./~ Fedora Documentation Steering Committee (FDSCo) 12 July 2005 #fedora-docs, irc.freenode.net, 2000 UTC Attending: ========== Karsten Wade Stuart Elliss Tammy Fox Tommy Reynolds Gavin Henry Mark Johnson Paul Frields Updates: ======== The file in /cvs/docs/owners/owners.list is where we edit to define all bugzilla components in the new Fedora Documentation product. FDP now has a top-level in bugzilla. See announcement to f-docs-l. Actions: ======== Karsten - announce Push to Publish week for 18 - 22 July, preannounce a repeat the following week Karsten - update http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks with new product-level bz info, use fewer words Karsten - start posting IRC log to f-dsco-l again Karsten - announce new product-level status in bugzilla Paul - update doc-guide outline to include new task process -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 13 06:02:03 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:02:03 -0700 Subject: new bugzilla status for FDP Message-ID: <1121234523.26925.75.camel@erato.phig.org> Because we are getting so many individual guides and projects to track, it made sense to move our bugzilla work into a separate Product category in bugzilla. Now, when you are entering a new bug report[1] or from within an existing bug, you can choose Fedora Documentation as the Product. This is a dropdown menu within the bug report. Then, each guide has an individual Component. Bug reports are automatically filled with initial owner and QA contact, as well as Cc: list. This helps us receive, sort, and manage bug reports more easily. It also raises the visibility of the Documentation Project as a peer within the Fedora Project community. Enjoy, Karsten [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 11:49:45 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:49:45 -0400 Subject: new bugzilla status for FDP In-Reply-To: <1121234523.26925.75.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1121234523.26925.75.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1121255386.3049.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 23:02 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Because we are getting so many individual guides and projects to track, > it made sense to move our bugzilla work into a separate Product category > in bugzilla. > > Now, when you are entering a new bug report[1] or from within an > existing bug, you can choose Fedora Documentation as the Product. This > is a dropdown menu within the bug report. Then, each guide has an > individual Component. > > Bug reports are automatically filled with initial owner and QA contact, > as well as Cc: list. This helps us receive, sort, and manage bug > reports more easily. It also raises the visibility of the Documentation > Project as a peer within the Fedora Project community. Found a TinyURL on the wiki that should change: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats: http://tinyurl.com/exov3 I could generate a new TinyURL, but I'm wondering why the one that's there links to a bug entry that "hard-codes" Fedora Core as the Product. Hit that link and you'll see what I mean. Is this a function of the relnotes at fedoraproject.org ownership? If so, anyone with a clue who could fix that, um, should. :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 12:41:38 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:41:38 -0400 Subject: f.r.c organization Message-ID: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Karsten mentioned to me offhand last night, after the meeting, that we may need some standards in place for publication directories on fedora.redhat.com. At least some of our publications will (hopefully) eventually be translated, and some may branch for different versions of Fedora Core. The locations on the Web site should reflect this. Here's some initial thoughts, any of which might be wrong: :-) 1. No directory should include the name "fedora," simply because it's redundant. 2. I'm not an Apache expert, but I'm pretty sure there is functionality for redirecting client requests based on the browser's reported language settings. In other words, if a client asks for "index.html," and it reports language "en," the server can deliver "index.en.html," or some such. Same for "ru," "ko," etc. We should try to take advantage of this with our current directory build names of "document-name-en," "document-name-ru," etc., and not separate this off into a folder hierarchy of its own. I could see this as a good way to organize: docs/ selinux-faq/ fc2/ index.php ... fc3/ fc4/ jargon-buster/ release-notes/ fc3/ fc4/ ... The only glitch I see is that moving directory names around is a CVS nightmare, so the initial conversion will be ugly on the commits list. Does anyone see other problems with this standard? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 12:43:49 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:43:49 -0400 Subject: new bugzilla status for FDP In-Reply-To: <1121255386.3049.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121234523.26925.75.camel@erato.phig.org> <1121255386.3049.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121258629.3049.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 07:49 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 23:02 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Because we are getting so many individual guides and projects to track, > > it made sense to move our bugzilla work into a separate Product category > > in bugzilla. > > > > Now, when you are entering a new bug report[1] or from within an > > existing bug, you can choose Fedora Documentation as the Product. This > > is a dropdown menu within the bug report. Then, each guide has an > > individual Component. > > > > Bug reports are automatically filled with initial owner and QA contact, > > as well as Cc: list. This helps us receive, sort, and manage bug > > reports more easily. It also raises the visibility of the Documentation > > Project as a peer within the Fedora Project community. > > Found a TinyURL on the wiki that should change: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats: > http://tinyurl.com/exov3 > > I could generate a new TinyURL, but I'm wondering why the one that's > there links to a bug entry that "hard-codes" Fedora Core as the Product. > Hit that link and you'll see what I mean. Is this a function of the > relnotes at fedoraproject.org ownership? If so, anyone with a clue who > could fix that, um, should. :-) Never mind, answered my own question. I didn't read far enough in the URL to see the product name. I will change this shortly. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie Wed Jul 13 16:48:23 2005 From: tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:48:23 +0100 Subject: f.r.c organization References: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Paul W. Frields wrote: > I could see this as a good way to organize: > > docs/ > selinux-faq/ > fc2/ > index.php ... > fc3/ > fc4/ > jargon-buster/ > release-notes/ > fc3/ > fc4/ > ... > > The only glitch I see is that moving directory names around is a CVS > nightmare, so the initial conversion will be ugly on the commits list. > Does anyone see other problems with this standard? Only a tiny point, but I would have put the OS split (fc2, fc3, etc) before the subject split, since most people will only be interested in documentation for a given distribution. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Jul 13 16:55:02 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:55:02 -0500 Subject: f.r.c organization In-Reply-To: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050713115502.48521e4f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > I could see this as a good way to organize: > docs/ > selinux-faq/ > fc2/ > index.php ... > fc3/ > fc4/ > jargon-buster/ > release-notes/ > fc3/ > fc4/ > ... > > The only glitch I see is that moving directory names around is a CVS > nightmare, so the initial conversion will be ugly on the commits list. > Does anyone see other problems with this standard? Why do CVS moves come into this at all? You're not talking about reorganizing the fdp CVS repository to mimic the deliverable layout are you? Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 13 17:26:16 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:26:16 -0700 Subject: f.r.c organization In-Reply-To: <20050713115502.48521e4f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050713115502.48521e4f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1121275576.26925.98.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 11:55 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > Why do CVS moves come into this at all? You're not talking about > reorganizing the fdp CVS repository to mimic the deliverable layout > are you? The website is stored in CVS, in /cvs/fedora/web. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sopwith at redhat.com Wed Jul 13 18:14:19 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: f.r.c organization In-Reply-To: <1121275576.26925.98.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050713115502.48521e4f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1121275576.26925.98.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: A lot of this discussion about organization is a bit pointless. Remember, to the user browsing around, the pages are connected in a WEB, not a TREE, so trying to figure out what directory structure to use is not worth a discussion - someone needs to pick a directory structure and go with it. The issue that does deserve collective attention is making sure that each page has appropriate links to build the right navigational structure for users. The filesystem directory structure only affects the web structure if you let it :-) Best, -- Elliot From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 13 18:26:03 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:26:03 -0700 Subject: f.r.c organization In-Reply-To: References: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050713115502.48521e4f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1121275576.26925.98.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1121279163.26925.128.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 14:14 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > A lot of this discussion about organization is a bit pointless. Remember, > to the user browsing around, the pages are connected in a WEB, not a TREE, > so trying to figure out what directory structure to use is not worth a > discussion - someone needs to pick a directory structure and go with it. > > The issue that does deserve collective attention is making sure that each > page has appropriate links to build the right navigational structure for > users. The filesystem directory structure only affects the web structure > if you let it :-) D'oh! You know, I was thinking about that yesterday and forgot that it applied. :) Although, a nice directory structured does help in making sense to people. I'd do it with symlinks, if we could check those in. Having the underlying tree follow different conventions is confusing to maintainers and URL readers. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 18:50:45 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:50:45 -0400 Subject: f.r.c organization In-Reply-To: References: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050713115502.48521e4f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1121275576.26925.98.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1121280646.3230.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 14:14 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > A lot of this discussion about organization is a bit pointless. Remember, > to the user browsing around, the pages are connected in a WEB, not a TREE, > so trying to figure out what directory structure to use is not worth a > discussion - someone needs to pick a directory structure and go with it. The point was not to obscure that fact, but simply to provide directions for people who will participate in the publication process. It's very easy to end up with a structure (however well-linked) that becomes harder for publishers to deal with. As a side effect, if there is any future automation possibilities for this process, good planning might make that work a little easier later. Anyway, you're well aware of that part, so I'm not preaching to you as much as explaining to other onlookers. :-) > The issue that does deserve collective attention is making sure that each > page has appropriate links to build the right navigational structure for > users. The filesystem directory structure only affects the web structure > if you let it :-) Sure. And that's why we should have, for example, index pages by FC version, by guide title, and -- if we ever get enough documents to make this worthwhile! -- by subject area. My only purpose in raising the issue was to try and get agreement on where to put things so that it remains easy for people entering the process to figure it out, even when we have lots more docs. The people using it today may not always be here, after all! (Although I've heard some people say that they are considering one of those little subcutaneous tracking devices for Elliot.) ;-D -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 13 19:58:09 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:58:09 -0700 Subject: f.r.c organization In-Reply-To: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121284689.26925.135.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 08:41 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Karsten mentioned to me offhand last night, after the meeting, that we > may need some standards in place for publication directories on > fedora.redhat.com. At least some of our publications will (hopefully) > eventually be translated, and some may branch for different versions of > Fedora Core. The locations on the Web site should reflect this. Here's > some initial thoughts, any of which might be wrong: :-) > > 1. No directory should include the name "fedora," simply because it's > redundant. Agreed. This stems from the parent XML filename, in our usage, where it is also somewhat redundant. > 2. I'm not an Apache expert, but I'm pretty sure there is functionality > for redirecting client requests based on the browser's reported language > settings. In other words, if a client asks for "index.html," and it > reports language "en," the server can deliver "index.en.html," or some > such. Same for "ru," "ko," etc. We should try to take advantage of > this with our current directory build names of "document-name-en," > "document-name-ru," etc., and not separate this off into a folder > hierarchy of its own. > > I could see this as a good way to organize: > > docs/ > selinux-faq/ > fc2/ > index.php ... > fc3/ > fc4/ > jargon-buster/ > release-notes/ > fc3/ > fc4/ > ... You don't show the language extension here. Currently we are all over the place. Here are some variations: docs/release-notes/fc4/ru/ docs/selinux-faq-fc3/ docs/fedora-install-guide-en/ I tend to like directories to sort things, but that could get crazy. Does this have a natural stopping point (bottom level) that is sane enough? This is as deep as we need, I think: docs/fc4/selinux-faq/en/ What I see Paul is suggesting: docs/fc4/selinux-faq-en/ Timothy Murphy said: > I would have put the OS split (fc2, fc3, etc) before the subject > split, since most people will only be interested in documentation > for a given distribution. That's a good point worth considering. Are people looking for documents: a) First by version, then by subject? b) First by subject, then by version? I'm not sure what I _think_ is true. Personally, I tend to look by subject, then by version. There is often not what I need in my particular version, so I am looking for 'close enough.' - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 21:53:06 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:53:06 -0400 Subject: f.r.c organization In-Reply-To: <1121284689.26925.135.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121284689.26925.135.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1121291586.3826.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 12:58 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Currently we are all over the place. Here are some variations: > > docs/release-notes/fc4/ru/ > docs/selinux-faq-fc3/ > docs/fedora-install-guide-en/ > > I tend to like directories to sort things, but that could get crazy. > Does this have a natural stopping point (bottom level) that is sane > enough? This is as deep as we need, I think: > > docs/fc4/selinux-faq/en/ > > What I see Paul is suggesting: > > docs/fc4/selinux-faq-en/ > > Timothy Murphy said: > > > I would have put the OS split (fc2, fc3, etc) before the subject > > split, since most people will only be interested in documentation > > for a given distribution. > > That's a good point worth considering. > > Are people looking for documents: > > a) First by version, then by subject? > b) First by subject, then by version? > > I'm not sure what I _think_ is true. Personally, I tend to look by > subject, then by version. There is often not what I need in my > particular version, so I am looking for 'close enough.' Reiterating what Elliot said, I'm not sure it matters much; I'm only concerned about what makes sense for our publishing routine, and what will be of the greatest value for later automation (to whatever extent is possible). Sorry I didn't give a better example when I did the OP, but the idea of "docs/some-tutorial-en/fc4/" seems best to me, since it might enable more of the build to be pasted over from Docs CVS en masse. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Jul 13 22:02:22 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:02:22 -0500 Subject: f.r.c organization In-Reply-To: <1121291586.3826.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121284689.26925.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <1121291586.3826.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050713170222.18095f62.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 12:58 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Sorry I didn't give a better example when I did the OP, > but the idea of "docs/some-tutorial-en/fc4/" seems best to me, since it > might enable more of the build to be pasted over from Docs CVS en masse. I'm not in favor of an en masse copy because I think publication is suitable only for a well-defined release point. I think a little "Makefile.common" surgery for a "make publish-frc" target might be more in order. Information hiding and all that. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 23:50:26 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:50:26 -0400 Subject: f.r.c organization In-Reply-To: <20050713170222.18095f62.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121284689.26925.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <1121291586.3826.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050713170222.18095f62.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1121298626.3826.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 17:02 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 12:58 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > Sorry I didn't give a better example when I did the OP, > > but the idea of "docs/some-tutorial-en/fc4/" seems best to me, since it > > might enable more of the build to be pasted over from Docs CVS en masse. > > I'm not in favor of an en masse copy because I think publication is > suitable only for a well-defined release point. I think a little > "Makefile.common" surgery for a "make publish-frc" target might be > more in order. Information hiding and all that. By "en masse," I meant "build several releases of a document at once," so if we ever do XML/XSL conditional stuff, or someone automates the process of pushing docs, our Docs CVS build stuff could easily produce multiple OS version targets (FC4, FC5...) for each of one or more specific language documents at one time. The publisher, by which I mean "person responsible for publishing on f.r.c," would be able to simply copy the built document tree of HTML and associated files "this-tutorial-en" to the web CVS. See the web CVS for more info. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jul 14 07:37:21 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:37:21 -0700 Subject: Push to Publish Week 18 - 22 July Message-ID: <1121326641.31936.76.camel@erato.phig.org> Writers and editors, grab your red pens, correction fluid, and XML skills. The week of 18 to 22 July is the first FDP Push to Publish week. Everyone is encouraged to participate. We're trying to get as many documents edited and published as possible. Do you have a document that has been languishing in CVS? A tutorial almost completed that just needs $SOMETHING more to get it published? A final barrier we can help you break through? All challenges considered! Meet here on this mailing list next week. We'll see what this documentation community has to say. - Karsten PS: This is a pre-announcement that we're likely to follow up with the week of 25 - 29 July as a second P2PW. If some of the excitement of the first week rubs off on you, maybe you'll be ready by the second week. ;-) -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jul 14 20:56:37 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:56:37 -0700 Subject: web publishing Message-ID: <1121374598.31936.95.camel@erato.phig.org> Here's a helpful (beta) methodology with pointers for updating the fedora.redhat.com/docs site: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EditingFedoraRedhatCom Let us know any problems you have with it, or just fix the page yourself. :) Why do you want to know about this? One of the important roles in the publishing chain is the Web Publisher. These persons convert documents to post on fedora.redhat.com/docs, QA the work before making it live, and are responsible for making the changes go live. During the Push to Publish Week (P2PW), having more people trained on this important final step is a key to successful publishing. Once you have this setup, you are free to provide patches and bug reports for other parts of f.r.c, such as project pages, the Developer Guide, various participation pages, and so forth. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 17:05:19 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:05:19 -0400 Subject: Taking up work (was: Re: No more right click terminal) In-Reply-To: <1121446416.3128.9.camel@localhost> References: <1121248417.16074.19.camel@goose> <55143.192.54.193.37.1121249878.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1121272795.13335.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121282867.21244.27.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <42D5743A.6010300@shahms.com> <1121287685.28486.18.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <604aa79105071314411dc3a1ac@mail.gmail.com><1121326118.2792.10.camel@roque> <604aa791050714051125787aeb@mail.gmail.com><1121344610.11210.99.camel@dimi> <20050714125454.GC3984@redhat.com> <033401c58885$94407f90$b6491b31@td612671> <1121358709.4718.34.camel@localhost> <42D695D5.5030204@redhat.com> <1121446416.3128.9.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1121447119.3311.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Forwarding this to fedora-docs-list for additional discussion. On Fri, 2005-07-15 at 12:53 -0400, Toshio Kuratomi wrote, in response to Rahul Sundaram: [...snip...] > > >2) Start a project to package different default values for Extras. We > > >have redhat-rpm-config changing rpm and fedora-release changing the > > >config of yum. Maybe there should be a poweruser-gconf-tweaks. (More > > >seriously, it should probably be more like config-nautilus-nonspatial, > > >config-rpmbuild-userdirs, config-metacity-focusfollows, etc) this can > > >work for things that just require default config changes but will not > > >work for compilation/upstream code changes. > > > > > > > > I would prefer people working on documenting these. A good desktop users > > guide and "power" user FAQ's for Fedora which details out the common > > changes such as these would be useful. I dont think installing different > > packages for trivial changes such as these is really a good idea. What > > if you install this package and then change the configuration to a > > conflicting value? > > > Good idea! Let's make that #4: Fedora Guide to Power-User Tweaks. Are > you volunteering to create and edit it? (I wasn't volunteering to head > a project to create defaults, so you can say no to this as well.) Rahul agreed to edit if someone would write. Anyone care to start compiling something? This would make a great starter project for someone new to the docs process. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kara at kspei.com Fri Jul 15 20:11:28 2005 From: kara at kspei.com (kara at kspei.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:11:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Self-Introduction: Kara Pritchard Message-ID: Full legal name: Kara J. Pritchard City, Country: Fairview Heights, IL USA (suburb of St Louis) Profession: Own a computer consulting, service, and retail shop. Company: K&S Pritchard Enterprises, Inc. (www.kspei.com) Goals: My goals are simple... to contribute. Since moving on from LPI and not having the extended time for publishing projects anymore, the itch to contribute somewhere has been strong. My husband is a maintainer for a few Extras packages and suggested I take a look at this project. I must admit that my available free time is erratic, however. What do you want to write about? KJP: I'm best with instructional documentation such as HOWTOs, Step-By-Step, or Training guides. Therefore, I think topics geared toward the user audience would be the most interesting. Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? KJP: I've done technical editing for several book and magazine publishers. I'm quite opinionated when it comes to the clarity and feel a reader gets from a writing sample. I'm very good at giving that opinion, so don't ask me to do it if you don't want any complaints :) What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? KJP: I authored two editions of the RHCE Exam Cram in '99 and '00. I contributed to a guide to DocBook, been a project reviewer for New Riders, an editor for O'Reilly, IDG, and Linux User/Format/Magazine. I was also responsible for all the content development for the LPI exams from Dec '99 through this spring. What level and type of computer skills do you have? KJP: I'm becoming quite the hardware geek. I build a lot of Linux-based workstations and high-end servers. I do more admin work when it comes to Linux than consulting, installation, etc. I'm not a programmer, though have been known to read through a perl or shell script on occasion. What other skills do you have that might be applicable? KJP: Good people skills, project management background What makes you an excellent match for the project? KJP: Long history in the Linux community, prior Linux-related technical content development, editing, and management experience. Very short-winded. GPG KEYID and fingerprint [kara at frell gpgfiles]$ gpg --fingerprint 6DEC5002 pub 1024D/6DEC5002 2002-01-22 Kara Pritchard Key fingerprint = 42AC 471F 6E98 8134 C39E 81F4 9F2E 1DEE 6DEC 5002 uid Kara Pritchard uid Kara Pritchard sub 1024g/27194020 2002-01-22 Kara Pritchard Phone: 618-398-3000 President, KS Computer Room Inc. kara at kspei.com Southern Illinois Linux Users Group www.silug.org -- From byte at aeon.com.my Sat Jul 16 14:50:59 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:50:59 -0400 Subject: Doc idea: getting more out of IRC support Message-ID: <1121525459.3299.208.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Well, as more and more people use Fedora, #fedora on freenode gets more and more questions. Having an IRC netiquette/faq sorta thing would be useful (with resource pointers) If we already have this, I apologise for pointing it out :) Otherwise, here's something useful for starters: http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/linuxHelpAsk.html Regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Sat Jul 16 14:53:15 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:53:15 -0400 Subject: Taking up work (was: Re: No more right click terminal) In-Reply-To: <1121447119.3311.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121248417.16074.19.camel@goose> <55143.192.54.193.37.1121249878.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1121272795.13335.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121282867.21244.27.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <42D5743A.6010300@shahms.com> <1121287685.28486.18.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <604aa79105071314411dc3a1ac@mail.gmail.com><1121326118.2792.10.camel@roque> <604aa791050714051125787aeb@mail.gmail.com><1121344610.11210.99.camel@dimi> <20050714125454.GC3984@redhat.com> <033401c58885$94407f90$b6491b31@td612671> <1121358709.4718.34.camel@localhost> <42D695D5.5030204@redhat.com> <1121446416.3128.9.camel@localhost> <1121447119.3311.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121525595.3299.211.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Fri, 2005-07-15 at 13:05 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Rahul agreed to edit if someone would write. Anyone care to start > compiling something? This would make a great starter project for > someone new to the docs process. Something I'd agree to do as well (edit) Now, to write it hmm... Can there be more inspiration, as to what other folk here find as power user tweaks? I've gone so bent in my ways with customised stuff, being migrated over from RH7.x days (i've been successfully upgrading and caring ~/ along), I forget sometimes what tweaks I've made... -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From admin at buddhalinux.com Sat Jul 16 11:16:03 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:16:03 -0500 Subject: f.r.c organization In-Reply-To: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121258498.3049.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42D8EC73.90208@buddhalinux.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Paul W. Frields wrote: >2. I'm not an Apache expert, but I'm pretty sure there is functionality >for redirecting client requests based on the browser's reported language >settings. In other words, if a client asks for "index.html," and it >reports language "en," the server can deliver "index.en.html," or some >such. Same for "ru," "ko," etc. We should try to take advantage of >this with our current directory build names of "document-name-en," >"document-name-ru," etc., and not separate this off into a folder >hierarchy of its own. The following link provides the documentation relating to specific client browser locale: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/content-negotiation.html The syntax is different from the above example, because it utilizes extensions rather than base filename alteration. i.e. index.html.en, index.html.ru or index.en.html, index.ru.html But with only a inclusion of a type map and some apache directives in the appropriate files; this should be feasible. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFC2OxyoR5cE1e/kEIRAl+CAJ0ckj4W+81zFRRcXaipRGS6E9Rt0wCfbw85 tttYu6IODklASxuqexNlexA= =s1xb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kwade at redhat.com Sat Jul 16 18:24:36 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:24:36 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Kara Pritchard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121538276.31936.152.camel@erato.phig.org> Welcome Kara! On Fri, 2005-07-15 at 15:11 -0500, kara at kspei.com wrote: > Full legal name: Kara J. Pritchard > City, Country: Fairview Heights, IL USA (suburb of St Louis) > Profession: Own a computer consulting, service, and retail shop. > Company: K&S Pritchard Enterprises, Inc. (www.kspei.com) > > Goals: My goals are simple... to contribute. Since moving on from LPI and > not having the extended time for publishing projects anymore, the itch to > contribute somewhere has been strong. My husband is a maintainer for a > few Extras packages and suggested I take a look at this project. I must > admit that my available free time is erratic, however. Welcome to the club, then. Personally, I only appear to have free time. For example, it has taken me thirty minutes to write this far. ;-) Your background and interests sound perfect. Do you have any topics you want to start with? Or anything half-finished that you'd like to use the energy during the upcoming Push to Publish Week to get live? In case you haven't seen it, this is a useful starting page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters Whoops, that took another twenty minutes to write. Off to the weekend projects. :) - Karsten > What do you want to write about? > KJP: I'm best with instructional documentation such as HOWTOs, > Step-By-Step, or Training guides. Therefore, I think topics geared toward > the user audience would be the most interesting. > > Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? > KJP: I've done technical editing for several book and magazine publishers. > I'm quite opinionated when it comes to the clarity and feel a reader gets > from a writing sample. I'm very good at giving that opinion, so don't ask > me to do it if you don't want any complaints :) > > What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? > KJP: I authored two editions of the RHCE Exam Cram in '99 and '00. I > contributed to a guide to DocBook, been a project reviewer for New > Riders, an editor for O'Reilly, IDG, and Linux User/Format/Magazine. I > was also responsible for all the content development for the LPI exams > from Dec '99 through this spring. > > What level and type of computer skills do you have? > KJP: I'm becoming quite the hardware geek. I build a lot of Linux-based > workstations and high-end servers. I do more admin work when it comes to > Linux than consulting, installation, etc. I'm not a programmer, though > have been known to read through a perl or shell script on occasion. > > What other skills do you have that might be applicable? > KJP: Good people skills, project management background > > What makes you an excellent match for the project? > KJP: Long history in the Linux community, prior Linux-related technical > content development, editing, and management experience. Very > short-winded. > > GPG KEYID and fingerprint > > [kara at frell gpgfiles]$ gpg --fingerprint 6DEC5002 > pub 1024D/6DEC5002 2002-01-22 Kara Pritchard > Key fingerprint = 42AC 471F 6E98 8134 C39E 81F4 9F2E 1DEE 6DEC 5002 > uid Kara Pritchard > uid Kara Pritchard > sub 1024g/27194020 2002-01-22 > > > Kara Pritchard Phone: 618-398-3000 > President, KS Computer Room Inc. kara at kspei.com > Southern Illinois Linux Users Group www.silug.org > -- > > -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Sat Jul 16 19:29:27 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:29:27 -0400 Subject: fedora guide Message-ID: <1121542167.3299.232.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Anyone seen this? http://evolutioncolt.com/fedoraguide/ Regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From stickster at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 21:03:14 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:03:14 -0400 Subject: fedora guide In-Reply-To: <1121542167.3299.232.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1121542167.3299.232.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 15:29 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > Anyone seen this? > > http://evolutioncolt.com/fedoraguide/ Yes, but I can't figure out why [t|s]he[y] didn't work with the existing fedorafaq.org, whose material a lot of this site duplicates. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Sat Jul 16 21:08:41 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:08:41 -0400 Subject: fedora guide In-Reply-To: <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121542167.3299.232.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121548121.3299.241.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 17:03 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 15:29 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > > Anyone seen this? > > > > http://evolutioncolt.com/fedoraguide/ > > Yes, but I can't figure out why [t|s]he[y] didn't work with the existing > fedorafaq.org, whose material a lot of this site duplicates. Can someone from the Docs steering committee ask? Or even say "lets work together" ? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From stickster at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 21:42:14 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:42:14 -0400 Subject: fedora guide In-Reply-To: <1121548121.3299.241.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1121542167.3299.232.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121548121.3299.241.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1121550135.3027.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 17:08 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 17:03 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 15:29 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > > > Anyone seen this? > > > > > > http://evolutioncolt.com/fedoraguide/ > > > > Yes, but I can't figure out why [t|s]he[y] didn't work with the existing > > fedorafaq.org, whose material a lot of this site duplicates. > > Can someone from the Docs steering committee ask? Or even say "lets work > together" ? Because, like FedoraFAQ much of what is contained in this EC site is legally questionable[1]. The issue of FedoraFAQ has come up before on this list (please see archives for details), and since we can't do as complete a job due to legal encumbrance, and since some of the advice given on the site violates both the spirit and mission of the Fedora Project -- e.g. to build a complete OS from free software -- we decided not to get involved officially, IIRC. If, however, you would like to get EC together with the FedoraFAQ maintainer, then by all means, do so! Collaboration is almost always a good thing in these situations. = = = = = [1] Please, PLEASE, let's not start another "legal issues" thread. :-D If anyone has questions, I beg you in the name of all that is holy, read the archives, and then post only if you have a new and *compelling* argument. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Sat Jul 16 21:40:47 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:40:47 +0100 Subject: fedora guide In-Reply-To: <1121548121.3299.241.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1121542167.3299.232.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121548121.3299.241.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <200507162240.47526.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Saturday 16 Jul 2005 22:08, Colin Charles wrote: > On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 17:03 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 15:29 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > > > Anyone seen this? > > > > > > http://evolutioncolt.com/fedoraguide/ > > > > Yes, but I can't figure out why [t|s]he[y] didn't work with the existing > > fedorafaq.org, whose material a lot of this site duplicates. > > Can someone from the Docs steering committee ask? Or even say "lets work > together" ? Sounds good to me? Should it come from the Chair? > -- > Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Sat Jul 16 21:45:00 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:45:00 +0100 Subject: Self-Introduction: Kara Pritchard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507162245.01125.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Friday 15 Jul 2005 21:11, kara at kspei.com wrote: > Full legal name: Kara J. Pritchard Added: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From sundaram at redhat.com Sun Jul 17 02:53:56 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:23:56 +0530 Subject: fedora guide In-Reply-To: <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121542167.3299.232.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42D9C844.4070703@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: >On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 15:29 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > > >>Anyone seen this? >> >>http://evolutioncolt.com/fedoraguide/ >> >> > >Yes, but I can't figure out why [t|s]he[y] didn't work with the existing >fedorafaq.org, whose material a lot of this site duplicates. > > > I already asked and the answer was the fedorafaq.org maintainer was busy and he wanted to do his own thing. Last I heard they were in contact. regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Sun Jul 17 03:24:45 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:54:45 +0530 Subject: Fedora International websites Message-ID: <42D9CF7D.4080303@redhat.com> Hi This looks useful http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=64174 regards Rahul From stuart at elsn.org Sun Jul 17 13:21:30 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:21:30 +0100 Subject: Taking up work (was: Re: No more right click terminal) In-Reply-To: <1121525595.3299.211.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1121248417.16074.19.camel@goose> <55143.192.54.193.37.1121249878.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1121272795.13335.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121282867.21244.27.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <42D5743A.6010300@shahms.com> <1121287685.28486.18.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <604aa79105071314411dc3a1ac@mail.gmail.com><1121326118.2792.10.camel@roque> <604aa791050714051125787aeb@mail.gmail.com><1121344610.11210.99.camel@dimi> <20050714125454.GC3984@redhat.com> <033401c58885$94407f90$b6491b31@td612671> <1121358709.4718.34.camel@localhost> <42D695D5.5030204@redhat.com> <1121446416.3128.9.camel@localhost> <1121447119.3311.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121525595.3299.211.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1121606490.3624.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 10:53 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > On Fri, 2005-07-15 at 13:05 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Rahul agreed to edit if someone would write. Anyone care to start > > compiling something? This would make a great starter project for > > someone new to the docs process. > > Something I'd agree to do as well (edit) > > Now, to write it hmm... Can there be more inspiration, as to what other > folk here find as power user tweaks? I've gone so bent in my ways with > customised stuff, being migrated over from RH7.x days (i've been > successfully upgrading and caring ~/ along), I forget sometimes what > tweaks I've made... > -- > Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ Tutorial/notes for standard tweaks to new systems, which may be of some use as a start point: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/main/index.php?pagename=FedoraPostInstallationChecklist Not on that page: - Themes/backgrounds: making the desktop look cool with stuff from art.gnome.org -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Sun Jul 17 13:25:11 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:55:11 +0530 Subject: Taking up work In-Reply-To: <1121525595.3299.211.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1121248417.16074.19.camel@goose> <55143.192.54.193.37.1121249878.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1121272795.13335.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121282867.21244.27.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <42D5743A.6010300@shahms.com> <1121287685.28486.18.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <604aa79105071314411dc3a1ac@mail.gmail.com><1121326118.2792.10.camel@roque> <604aa791050714051125787aeb@mail.gmail.com><1121344610.11210.99.camel@dimi> <20050714125454.GC3984@redhat.com> <033401c58885$94407f90$b6491b31@td612671> <1121358709.4718.34.camel@localhost> <42D695D5.5030204@redhat.com> <1121446416.3128.9.camel@localhost> <1121447119.3311.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121525595.3299.211.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <42DA5C37.1050509@redhat.com> Colin Charles wrote: >On Fri, 2005-07-15 at 13:05 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > >>Rahul agreed to edit if someone would write. Anyone care to start >>compiling something? This would make a great starter project for >>someone new to the docs process. >> >> > >Something I'd agree to do as well (edit) > >Now, to write it hmm... Can there be more inspiration, as to what other >folk here find as power user tweaks? I've gone so bent in my ways with >customised stuff, being migrated over from RH7.x days (i've been >successfully upgrading and caring ~/ along), I forget sometimes what >tweaks I've made... > > Covering the tools listed in http://live.gnome.org/PowerUserTools. Especially the ones already in extras. Setting up sudo and optimisations can probably go into a seperate guide. My idea is to only cover specific tools and tricks here regards Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 13:34:31 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:34:31 -0400 Subject: Taking up work (was: Re: No more right click terminal) In-Reply-To: <1121606490.3624.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121248417.16074.19.camel@goose> <55143.192.54.193.37.1121249878.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1121272795.13335.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121282867.21244.27.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <42D5743A.6010300@shahms.com> <1121287685.28486.18.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <604aa79105071314411dc3a1ac@mail.gmail.com><1121326118.2792.10.camel@roque> <604aa791050714051125787aeb@mail.gmail.com><1121344610.11210.99.camel@dimi> <20050714125454.GC3984@redhat.com> <033401c58885$94407f90$b6491b31@td612671> <1121358709.4718.34.camel@localhost> <42D695D5.5030204@redhat.com> <1121446416.3128.9.camel@localhost> <1121447119.3311.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121525595.3299.211.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1121606490.3624.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121607271.5038.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-17 at 14:21 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 10:53 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > > On Fri, 2005-07-15 at 13:05 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > Rahul agreed to edit if someone would write. Anyone care to start > > > compiling something? This would make a great starter project for > > > someone new to the docs process. > > > > Something I'd agree to do as well (edit) > > > > Now, to write it hmm... Can there be more inspiration, as to what other > > folk here find as power user tweaks? I've gone so bent in my ways with > > customised stuff, being migrated over from RH7.x days (i've been > > successfully upgrading and caring ~/ along), I forget sometimes what > > tweaks I've made... > > -- > > Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ > > Tutorial/notes for standard tweaks to new systems, which may be of some > use as a start point: > > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/main/index.php?pagename=FedoraPostInstallationChecklist > > Not on that page: > > - Themes/backgrounds: making the desktop look cool with stuff from > art.gnome.org Great! Two things to keep in mind as you, Rahul and Colin progress: 1. Get the wiki & BZ updated to track this work 2. Avoid any legally encumbered steps, in accordance with &FP; goals -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stephen.davies at ultraconsulting.co.uk Sun Jul 17 16:57:48 2005 From: stephen.davies at ultraconsulting.co.uk (Stephen Davies) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:57:48 +0100 Subject: Introductions In-Reply-To: <20050717160006.64D6273834@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20050717160006.64D6273834@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <42DA8E0C.7000403@ultraconsulting.co.uk> Name: Stephen Davies Location: Aldershot, Hampshire, UK Profession: Owner of IT Services/Consulting Company Company: Ultra Consulting Ltd ( www.ultraconsulting.co.uk ) Expertise: IT Professional since 1975. Got into Unix in mid 1980's(Ultrix-32 & then TRU64). First installed Linux (slackware 1.?) way back when. Company is involced in Middleware Consulting (Websphere etc). I have used RedHat since 6.2 and run FC3/4 & RHEL on a variety of systems including Laptops. IBM Websphere MQ & WMQI Certified RHCE/RCHT as well. I also did about 50% of an Oracle DBA sometime in the past. I'm proficient in C/C++ Delphi/Kylix, SQL, shell scripting etc. Where I want to help: Documentaion always lets down systems & solutions. I actually don't mind writing documentaion if it is going to be used rather than get ticks in a box. So helping make the documentation more applicable for commercial users can only help the acceptance of Linux in the commercial arena. Idiot proof installation & configuration guides seem to be quite popular at the moment. To give you an example, If a company wants to run Oracle 9i, Websphere MQ and Websphere Message Broker on the same Linux box what do I need to install from the base RPMs. What additional RPMS are needed that are not included in the OS, what kernel tweaks are needed etc etc etc. How Much time do I have to Offer? This depends upon how bust the company is. If a contract comes along and its is worthwhile taking it then I'll do it. Between contracts then lots of time. so, I'm open to offers. Stephen Davies From sundaram at redhat.com Sun Jul 17 18:09:13 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:39:13 +0530 Subject: Taking up work In-Reply-To: <42DA5C37.1050509@redhat.com> References: <1121248417.16074.19.camel@goose> <55143.192.54.193.37.1121249878.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1121272795.13335.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121282867.21244.27.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <42D5743A.6010300@shahms.com> <1121287685.28486.18.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <604aa79105071314411dc3a1ac@mail.gmail.com><1121326118.2792.10.camel@roque> <604aa791050714051125787aeb@mail.gmail.com><1121344610.11210.99.camel@dimi> <20050714125454.GC3984@redhat.com> <033401c58885$94407f90$b6491b31@td612671> <1121358709.4718.34.camel@localhost> <42D695D5.5030204@redhat.com> <1121446416.3128.9.camel@localhost> <1121447119.3311.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121525595.3299.211.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <42DA5C37.1050509@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42DA9EC9.6090603@redhat.com> Hi >> > Covering the tools listed in http://live.gnome.org/PowerUserTools. > Especially the ones already in extras. Setting up sudo and > optimisations can probably go into a seperate guide. My idea is to > only cover specific tools and tricks here > > regards > Rahul > Replying to myself, Gaim gui notifications also in extras is a nice thing to use. We should cover that too regards Rahul From byte at aeon.com.my Sun Jul 17 20:01:58 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:01:58 -0400 Subject: Taking up work In-Reply-To: <42DA9EC9.6090603@redhat.com> References: <1121248417.16074.19.camel@goose> <55143.192.54.193.37.1121249878.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1121272795.13335.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121282867.21244.27.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <42D5743A.6010300@shahms.com> <1121287685.28486.18.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <604aa79105071314411dc3a1ac@mail.gmail.com><1121326118.2792.10.camel@roque> <604aa791050714051125787aeb@mail.gmail.com><1121344610.11210.99.camel@dimi> <20050714125454.GC3984@redhat.com> <033401c58885$94407f90$b6491b31@td612671> <1121358709.4718.34.camel@localhost> <42D695D5.5030204@redhat.com> <1121446416.3128.9.camel@localhost> <1121447119.3311.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121525595.3299.211.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <42DA5C37.1050509@redhat.com> <42DA9EC9.6090603@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1121630518.3299.331.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Sun, 2005-07-17 at 23:39 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Gaim gui notifications also in extras is a nice thing to use. We > should > cover that too Oh right, thats my package, so I apparently know it as something useful ;-) -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From max_list at fedorafaq.org Mon Jul 18 06:13:13 2005 From: max_list at fedorafaq.org (Max Kanat-Alexander) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:13:13 -0700 Subject: fedora guide In-Reply-To: <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121542167.3299.232.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121667194.3398.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 17:03 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Yes, but I can't figure out why [t|s]he[y] didn't work with the existing > fedorafaq.org, whose material a lot of this site duplicates. Actually, he offered to work with me a few times. :-) He's a nice guy, definitely. I was extremely busy until recently, but I definitely want to get with him and see if we can work anything out. You'll also notice that the style of the Fedora Guide (the written style) is considerably different from fedorafaq.org -- I think the target audience is different. I'm targeting brand-new, totally fresh users, while the Guide is targeted more toward slightly knowledgeable users who want to know how to do something. Also, the Guide goes into detail on some things that I haven't heard be actual Frequently Asked Questions, but are still useful information to have. I like the Guide because it offers quick instructions on how to install a lot of stuff. I like the FAQ because it offers clear, brief, and detailed explanations for questions that users frequently ask. However, I'd definitely recommend that somebody get Seb on this docs-list, if he isn't already. :-) Oh, and I believe that Seb is also helping Sindre ("foolish") on the new http://www.fedorausers.org/ -- so perhaps a lot of the Guide material will be there, too. I'm not sure if Sindre is actually ready to announce fedorausers.org yet, but I thought that perhaps I'd point some of you docs folks there in case you'd also like to help out on that project. The relationship between fedorausers and fedorafaq is that basically fedorausers is a detailed knowledge base, and fedorafaq is a list of Frequently Asked Questions with simple, highly-edited answers for brand-new users. -Max -- http://www.everythingsolved.com/ Fedora is definitely part of the "everything" in Everything Solved. From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Jul 18 19:12:12 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:12:12 -0400 Subject: fedora guide In-Reply-To: <1121667194.3398.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121542167.3299.232.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121667194.3398.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121713932.3299.472.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Sun, 2005-07-17 at 23:13 -0700, Max Kanat-Alexander wrote: > Oh, and I believe that Seb is also helping Sindre ("foolish") on > the > new http://www.fedorausers.org/ -- so perhaps a lot of the Guide > material will be there, too. I'm not sure if Sindre is actually ready > to > announce fedorausers.org yet, but I thought that perhaps I'd point > some > of you docs folks there in case you'd also like to help out on that > project. Ok, dare I ask a) why another fedora site, b) someone tell fedora-marketing this, c) can we work together as there are others trying to do this with the existing resources (read archives of f-m-l) Regards (p/s: this has been forwarded to f-marketing-l) -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 01:23:46 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:23:46 -0400 Subject: packager-handbook Message-ID: <1121736226.3979.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> I see that we've suddenly "inherited" a new document from Ville Skytt? and Marius J?hndal. Has someone agreed to maintain and/or edit this? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 01:25:39 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:25:39 -0400 Subject: packager-handbook In-Reply-To: <1121736226.3979.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121736226.3979.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121736339.3979.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 21:23 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I see that we've suddenly "inherited" a new document from Ville Skytt? > and Marius J?hndal. Has someone agreed to maintain and/or edit this? And, out of curiosity, why don't we see a record of this on fedora-docs-commits? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 04:31:24 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:31:24 -0700 Subject: P2PW targets Message-ID: <1121747484.16844.72.camel@erato.phig.org> Here are some documents that I see as targets for being published or updated this week: * Hardening Fedora * Yum Software Management * Mirror Tutorial * Proxy Guide * FC4 Release Notes (updated) * SELinux FAQ * Sudo Tutorial * USB Hotplug (out of date?) Would you like your work added to this list? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 04:37:47 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:37:47 -0700 Subject: packager-handbook In-Reply-To: <1121736339.3979.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121736226.3979.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121736339.3979.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121747867.16844.79.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 21:25 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 21:23 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > I see that we've suddenly "inherited" a new document from Ville Skytt? > > and Marius J?hndal. Has someone agreed to maintain and/or edit this? > > And, out of curiosity, why don't we see a record of this on > fedora-docs-commits? CVS maintainer snuck it in the backdoor, I reckon. This is a document from cvs.fedora.us, and there is supposed to be someone who is going to come along to talk about maintaining it. It seems logical to put it in /cvs/docs, and developers can keep formal documents there. If this languishes in CVS untouched, I'm sure we'll vaporize it during future cleaning missions. It might be that it is something bound for the wiki. I'll add it to the modules file so we can check it out and look at it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 12:01:13 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:01:13 -0400 Subject: packager-handbook In-Reply-To: <1121747867.16844.79.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1121736226.3979.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121736339.3979.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121747867.16844.79.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1121774473.2907.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 21:37 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 21:25 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 21:23 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > I see that we've suddenly "inherited" a new document from Ville Skytt? > > > and Marius J?hndal. Has someone agreed to maintain and/or edit this? > > > > And, out of curiosity, why don't we see a record of this on > > fedora-docs-commits? > > CVS maintainer snuck it in the backdoor, I reckon. > > This is a document from cvs.fedora.us, and there is supposed to be > someone who is going to come along to talk about maintaining it. It > seems logical to put it in /cvs/docs, and developers can keep formal > documents there. If this languishes in CVS untouched, I'm sure we'll > vaporize it during future cleaning missions. > > It might be that it is something bound for the wiki. I'll add it to the > modules file so we can check it out and look at it. 'S coo'. The second part was what struck me funny, but I didn't realize such a thing was possible. :-) It seems like a great thing for us to have, though. The Wiki currently has an excellent primer, the majority of which Tom "spot" Callaway wrote (IIRC). I'll suggest to whoever shows up to maintain this doc that they make sure that's integrated to reflect current FE process, if it's not already planned. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 17:12:51 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:12:51 -0400 Subject: packager-handbook In-Reply-To: <1121790795.14525.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121736226.3979.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121736339.3979.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121790795.14525.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121793171.3725.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 19:33 +0300, Ville Skytt? wrote: > On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 21:25 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 21:23 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > I see that we've suddenly "inherited" a new document from Ville Skytt? > > > and Marius J?hndal. Has someone agreed to maintain and/or edit this? > > I requested it to be imported somewhere in CVS after Warren asked > whether there's something that needs to be saved in cvs.fedora.us. > Elliot Lee imported it to docs. > > I think the packager's handbook, while very much work in progress and > partially outdated, still does contain some useful information, and that > having things in docbook format has some advantages over Wikis. Your > thoughts? I thought it might be a fine idea to get "spot's" stuff from the Wiki integrated in it wherever necessary and reasonable; that may already be done, but I haven't read through the whole thing. Certainly we're happy to house it, as long as there's a mintainer! :-) There are a few docs people who are maintainers in Extras CVS, so certainly someone can be roped into helping out. > The packager's handbook does not need anything right now, but if people > see it being useful and fits the plans of the docs project, I'd be > interested in contributing every now and then in order to "finish" it > and make it generally better. But the primary reason right now in > importing it *somewhere* is to get it out of the way when Warren needs > to shut cvs.fedora.us down. That sounds great to me. We have a steering committee meeting this afternoon, and I'll work on getting some additional components that are appropriate for this kind of bug, and post here to the list with a Cc to you. Then you can file the bug under Fedora Documentation with summary "New document: Packagers Handbook" or some such. > > And, out of curiosity, why don't we see a record of this on > > fedora-docs-commits? > > It was a direct CVS repository copy from cvs.fedora.us in order to > preserve history, not the usual add + commit. Cool, thanks for the info. I am not a big CVS junkie, so I didn't even realize one could do this! > (Please Cc me in replies, I'm not subscribed to the docs list at the > moment. And Marius is currently taking time off the project; I'm sure > he wouldn't mind being dropped from Cc.) I removed him from Cc on this thread, thanks. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 18:13:16 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:13:16 -0700 Subject: screencasts (was Re: Fedora review) Message-ID: <1121796796.5590.36.camel@erato.phig.org> The marketing group is very interested in the screencasts idea. The summary of this thread is: "If we had screencasts of the the top 10 most desired actions by tech journalists ... we could help people and resolve writers penning uninformed articles ... these would need to be active during testing, and could be available to review during firstboot ... initial ones can be rough, with notes taken on-screen in a text editor within the screencast." -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: Jeff Spaleta > On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > If there's precedent for this being done easily and well, then let's > > steal, steal, steal. :) > > thomasvs to the recue!!!!! > > instanbul which j5 has packaged.... and is trying to get it into extras now. > http://people.redhat.com/johnp/istanbul/ > > it encodes into theora by default... its a little cpu intensive on the > encoding so i hear.. but for this purpose... that does not matter. > Its soon to be an in Fedora tool, which means its available to the > entire community to use... and by using it to build task videos we > provide feedback on performance and additional testing of the theora > encoding. As soon as j5 actually gets this into extras is pretty much > the "good enough" solution to play with. > > I think j5 even had a blog entry showing how it works...but i cant > find it at the moment. > > -jef > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 23:13:53 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:13:53 -0700 Subject: Minutes FDSCo 19-JUL-2005 Message-ID: <1121814833.20245.16.camel@erato.phig.org> We focused on publishing, but a few other things came up, especially around bugzilla usage. :) FDSCo 19 July 2005 #fedora-docs on irc.freenode.net Attendees: ========== Paul Frields Karsten Wade Mark Johnson Tammy Fox Gavin Henry Stuart Elliss Reports/Updates: ================ * Targeting FC4 SELinux FAQ publishing for next week, call for FAQs went out today. * Ongoing work on publishing * Updates to FC4 Release Notes published: revision 1.4 date: 2005/07/19 23:10:39; author: kwade; state: Exp; lines: +233 -207 Moving of legalnotice is an important part of this commit, fixed bz #162475, bz #162219, bz #160369, style and spelling fixes throughout. Actions: ======== Paul: Resolve our few bugs with xmlformat by asking the developer for help. Paul/Karsten: Draft and send announcement of xml normalization tools. Paul: Create 'project tracking' bug tracker, have project bugs such as 'docs ready for publishing', 'docs without ideas', and so forth block it. Karsten: Ask for first draft in Wiki or structured text of a "Fedora Screencasting HOWTO" from the Fedora Marketing interested. It is more valuable as a living document in Wiki than being hidden in FDP CVS while being written. Karsten: Find out more about cross referencing between DocBook books. ## 30 ## -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 15:20:25 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:20:25 -0400 Subject: Bug moving complete Message-ID: <1121872825.3237.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> I have now finished moving all the bugs in the "Fedora Core/fedora-docs" component in Bugzilla to more appropriate components. The *VAST* majority ended up, as expected, in "Fedora Documentation/*" under their respective doc components. I moved a very few -- mostly closed -- to "Fedora Infrastructure/web" since they didn't involve any actual doc content. Thank you, everyone (especially you poor @RH'ers, who endured the bulk) for putting up with the flood of email. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 15:25:24 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:25:24 -0400 Subject: Bugzilla suggestion Message-ID: <1121873124.3237.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> I'd like to suggest an additional FDP component for Bugzilla - "website," which would cover publishing goofs, bad linkages, or other non-content driven bugs. While it is true that this bug might capture entries from people that should go to separate docs, it's very easy to reassign based on a preliminary review of the bug. Examples of bugs in this component might include: * An incorrect link on a doc index page (such as a missing link to the newest version of the relnotes) * Things that break as part of the web publishing process * Problems with content that is not provided out of docs CVS, such as original HTML from fedora CVS Arguments? Agreements? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 20 16:06:57 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:06:57 -0700 Subject: Bugzilla suggestion In-Reply-To: <1121873124.3237.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1121873124.3237.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121875618.20245.26.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-07-20 at 11:25 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I'd like to suggest an additional FDP component for Bugzilla - > "website," which would cover publishing goofs, bad linkages, or other > non-content driven bugs. While it is true that this bug might capture > entries from people that should go to separate docs, it's very easy to > reassign based on a preliminary review of the bug. Examples of bugs in > this component might include: > > * An incorrect link on a doc index page (such as a missing link to the > newest version of the relnotes) > * Things that break as part of the web publishing process > * Problems with content that is not provided out of docs CVS, such as > original HTML from fedora CVS > > Arguments? Agreements? Sounds fine. Separates this from infrastructure bugs, and as you say we can sort it as needed. Here is some more I worked up on the bugzilla subject. We need to fill out our bugzilla product a bit more. Some ideas we could add to our new bugzilla product: * A full description. How does this sound? "For bugs against Fedora documentation, including release notes, tutorials, and guides." * Versions. I can think of: fc1 fc2 fc3 fc4 devel test1 test2 test3 Does that cover it? Yes, I think we need devel and testing versions, since we produce docs that are either undergoing their own testing phase or are tied directly to the FC testing phases. * Paul already suggested a generic catch-all component for documentation enhancements/requests not for a specific document: 'docs-request'. Are there any others? The current list is: * desktop-up2date * developer-guide| * documentation-guide * docs-common * example-tutorial * install-guide * hardening * jargon-buster * mirror-tutorial * proxy-guide * release-notes * selinux-apache * selinux-faq * sudo-tutorial * toolchain-devel * translation-guide * translation-guide-windows * updates * usb-hotplug * xml-normalize * yum-software-management * Yesterday we decided to have a master project tracking bug that is blocked by the special project bugs, i.e., "doc ideas without writers", "docs in progress, and "docs ready for publishing". Any other ideas along this line? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 16:36:44 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:36:44 -0400 Subject: Bugzilla suggestion In-Reply-To: <1121875618.20245.26.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1121873124.3237.62.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121875618.20245.26.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1121877404.3237.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-20 at 09:06 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: [...snip...] > We need to fill out our bugzilla product a bit more. Some ideas we > could add to our new bugzilla product: > > * A full description. How does this sound? > > "For bugs against Fedora documentation, including release notes, > tutorials, and guides." The descriptions I entered for the new components did, in fact, transfer into Bugzilla. I don't know whether that means we can change them once they're instituted. > * Versions. I can think of: > fc1 > fc2 > fc3 > fc4 > devel > test1 > test2 > test3 > > Does that cover it? Yes, I think we need devel and testing versions, > since we produce docs that are either undergoing their own testing phase > or are tied directly to the FC testing phases. I don't have any problem with this, but I can then see the value in threshing the bugs at the end of each test phase. In other words, if we have bugs filed against, say, FC5test1 release notes, they would need to be moved to FC5test2 when that is released, and so on until FC5 makes final, when we should inherit a "fc5" version, and any remaining bugs would move to that version. > * Paul already suggested a generic catch-all component for documentation > enhancements/requests not for a specific document: 'docs-request'. Are > there any others? The current list is: > > * desktop-up2date > * developer-guide| > * documentation-guide > * docs-common > * example-tutorial > * install-guide > * hardening > * jargon-buster > * mirror-tutorial > * proxy-guide > * release-notes > * selinux-apache > * selinux-faq > * sudo-tutorial > * toolchain-devel > * translation-guide > * translation-guide-windows > * updates > * usb-hotplug > * xml-normalize > * yum-software-management > > * Yesterday we decided to have a master project tracking bug that is > blocked by the special project bugs, i.e., "doc ideas without writers", > "docs in progress, and "docs ready for publishing". Any other ideas > along this line? You may want to refresh your owners.list -- the "project-tracking" component is already out there, as well as "docs-requests". I am confused by making another tracking bug... wouldn't the list of trackers in "project-tracking" suffice? Or, rather, would being able to make a single dependency tree of everything in "project-tracking" be worthwhile? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From max_list at fedorafaq.org Wed Jul 20 17:19:54 2005 From: max_list at fedorafaq.org (Max Kanat-Alexander) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:19:54 -0700 Subject: fedora guide In-Reply-To: <1121713932.3299.472.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1121542167.3299.232.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121667194.3398.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121713932.3299.472.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1121879995.6681.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 15:12 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > Ok, dare I ask a) why another fedora site, I dunnow -- I always thought more sites meant more communication, which usually means more users in the long run. > b) someone tell fedora-marketing this, Probably might want to hold off until Foolish says he's ready to announce fedorausers.org to make any annoucements, though. > c) can we work together as there are others > trying to do this with the existing resources (read archives of f-m-l) As far as fedorausers.org goes, you'd have to ask Foolish (Sindre). -Max -- http://www.everythingsolved.com/ Fedora is definitely part of the "everything" in Everything Solved. From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 20 20:11:37 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:11:37 -0700 Subject: fedora guide In-Reply-To: <1121713932.3299.472.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1121542167.3299.232.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1121547794.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121667194.3398.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121713932.3299.472.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1121890297.20245.41.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 15:12 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > Ok, dare I ask a) why another fedora site, I don't think we can or should bring all things Fedora under the project umbrella. We rely upon the value these sites bring. One value is that they have been there, in some cases all along, where we have foundered. Not only would it be not-fair to assimilate them, they have name recognition that we didn't earn. Another value is in being able to more freely discuss some topics. For example, in Fedora Documentation, we focus only on software you can get in Core or Extras. However, those aren't the only solutions out there. These sites are free to recommend any software and method that solves the problem. We'd have to expand our scope by a huge amount, and dilute the value of our Fedora-only documentation, to bring these sites under the Fedora Documentation umbrella. We have enough work as-is with the current scope, thankyouverymuch. :) Another example is the typical one, all of the non-free/potentially patent-infringing discussions. > c) can we work together as there are others > trying to do this with the existing resources (read archives of f-m-l) This is the vision I have and have been trying to build: * Third-party (3-p) Fedora sites are part of the f-marketing-l and f- docs-l, to help coordinate and keep informed on what is going on with similar efforts within Fedora. * 3-p sites coordinate together through a mechanism of their choice, some of which are in the works. These mechanisms are made freely available to Fedora Project members who want to monitor or contribute. * We run parallel collaboration, so the 3-p sites fill in the gaps we cannot, in a manner we will not. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 16:34:14 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:34:14 -0400 Subject: web/html/docs/release-notes index.php,1.5,1.6 In-Reply-To: <200507241552.j6OFqweG020343@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> References: <200507241552.j6OFqweG020343@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1122222854.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 11:52 -0400, Karsten Wade wrote: > Author: kwade > > Update of /cvs/fedora/web/html/docs/release-notes > In directory cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com:/tmp/cvs-serv20326 > > Modified Files: > index.php > Log Message: > New date on updated notice. I wonder what the chances are of having the release-notes errata rolled into a fedora-release update? Note that the fedora-maintainers list is now tossing around the idea[1] of producing an update to allow for a script to do a "rpm --import /etc/pki/rpm-gpg/RPM-GPG-KEY*". I don't think we should lobby for doing this with every relnotes erratum, but certainly with the addition of the big section on legally encumbered material, it would be worth our while to piggyback there? = = = = = [1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2005-July/msg00080.html -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 22:37:16 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:37:16 -0400 Subject: yum tutorial Message-ID: <1122244637.12223.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Stuart's yum tutorial is nearing publication status. Most of the style edits are done but it could use another once-over. I was hoping to make a publication tonight (does that count as within P2PW?) but would love list members to look it over and point out any errors. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Jul 25 00:24:06 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:24:06 -0400 Subject: yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <1122244637.12223.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122244637.12223.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122251046.8973.26.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 18:37 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Stuart's yum tutorial is nearing publication status. Most of the > style > edits are done but it could use another once-over. I was hoping to > make > a publication tonight (does that count as within P2PW?) but would love > list members to look it over and point out any errors. And where do we find it? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From stickster at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 01:16:14 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:16:14 -0400 Subject: yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <1122251046.8973.26.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1122244637.12223.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122251046.8973.26.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1122254174.17110.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 20:24 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 18:37 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Stuart's yum tutorial is nearing publication status. Most of the > > style > > edits are done but it could use another once-over. I was hoping to > > make > > a publication tonight (does that count as within P2PW?) but would love > > list members to look it over and point out any errors. > > And where do we find it? In docs CVS, see http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ for more info. Note that I'm looking specifically for grammar and usage lapses, or any other style problems. We'd probably also like technical corrections, preferably with an accompanying XML patch unless it's trivial. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 11:47:27 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:47:27 -0400 Subject: Possible Fedora author? In-Reply-To: <61878.193.195.148.66.1122279225.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <61878.193.195.148.66.1122279225.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1122292047.3012.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 09:13 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > Seen this: > > http://www.howtoforge.com/perfect_setup_fedora_core_4 Just took a look. I don't know about "perfect," since the writing leaves something to be desired, and one of the first steps is to install apt. ;-) I also notice there's some superfluous use of CPAN when the author could just "yum install perl-HTML-Parser" and so on. Another item of note is that the tutorial in question is marked "All rights reserved," thus legally encumbering the material. Why don't you see if you can (1) convince the author to FDL the contents, and (2) edit it yourself into a more coherent narrative that uses Fedora technical standards? The subject matter itself seems like a good idea for coverage. Followups to fedora-docs-list please, the FDSCo list should be reserved for steering committee matters wherever possible, and has fewer readers in any case. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Jul 25 18:21:30 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:21:30 -0700 Subject: Possible Fedora author? In-Reply-To: <1122292047.3012.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <61878.193.195.148.66.1122279225.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1122292047.3012.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122315691.26275.50.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 07:47 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 09:13 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > Seen this: > > > > http://www.howtoforge.com/perfect_setup_fedora_core_4 > > Just took a look. This is a good idea, looking for additional content and writers. Posting such links here, we can do a /quick/ peer review and see if a) the content is interesting or usable in some form, and b) if the writer could be contacted (by a FDSCo member) with a personal invitation. There are probably many good short tutorials out there that could have a home here, if the author is interested. We're like the Extras of documentation, if someone writes and maintains it according to Fedora standards, there is room. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Jul 25 19:17:07 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:17:07 -0700 Subject: yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <1122254174.17110.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122244637.12223.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122251046.8973.26.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1122254174.17110.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122319028.26275.67.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 21:16 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 20:24 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > > And where do we find it? > > In docs CVS, see http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ for more info. > Note that I'm looking specifically for grammar and usage lapses, or any > other style problems. We'd probably also like technical corrections, > preferably with an accompanying XML patch unless it's trivial. One day we hope to have a continuous autobuild server available for this ... meanwhile, there is manual beta posting, like this: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/beta/yum-software-management/index.php Should be live within the hour. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Mon Jul 25 20:02:08 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:02:08 +0100 Subject: Possible Fedora author? In-Reply-To: <1122315691.26275.50.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <61878.193.195.148.66.1122279225.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1122292047.3012.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122315691.26275.50.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200507252102.09324.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Monday 25 Jul 2005 19:21, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 07:47 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 09:13 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > > Seen this: > > > > > > http://www.howtoforge.com/perfect_setup_fedora_core_4 > > > > Just took a look. > > This is a good idea, looking for additional content and writers. > > Posting such links here, we can do a /quick/ peer review and see if a) > the content is interesting or usable in some form, and b) if the writer > could be contacted (by a FDSCo member) with a personal invitation. That was my plan. > > There are probably many good short tutorials out there that could have a > home here, if the author is interested. We're like the Extras of > documentation, if someone writes and maintains it according to Fedora > standards, there is room. > > - Karsten -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 26 01:32:40 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:32:40 -0700 Subject: yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <1122319028.26275.67.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1122244637.12223.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122251046.8973.26.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1122254174.17110.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122319028.26275.67.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1122341560.26275.76.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 12:17 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/beta/yum-software-management/index.php In case no one figured it out, that should be s/php/html/. so ... http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/beta/yum-software-management That works fine. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie Tue Jul 26 10:42:48 2005 From: tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:42:48 +0100 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial Message-ID: =========================================== I thought the yum tutorial was pretty good - I'd give it 8/10 . The following remarks are meant as comments rather than criticism. 0. I found the general approach slightly over-formal even perhaps a tiny bit unfriendly. But that is just a personal view. I would have put the "Revision history" as a link, perhaps just leaving the date of the latest revision, and the author or authors. 1. As far as I can see, there are three standard fedora yum repositories: fedora base (covering the rpms on the distribution CDs), fedora update and fedora extras. If that is correct, I suggest it should be said clearly, as postings suggest some confusion over this. 2. I think a tutorial should concentrate on the ways in which an application is most often used. In the case of yum, I imagine 95% of the usage is covered by "yum update" and "yum install". I would have put these first - perhaps right at the beginning - and put other variants in later sections, eg "Package groups". 3. I would have started by discussing the entries in /etc/yum.repos.d/ , perhaps with model entries for the 3 standard repositories. That would enable people to get started as quickly as possible. 4. I definitely would omit the "su -c '...'" in the examples, and just say you have to run yum as superuser, perhaps once mentioning sudo and "su -c". 5. In case people are using sudo or su, perhaps it should be mentioned that eg * should be given as \* in yum search, etc. 6. When discussing "yum clean" it should be explained what disadvantages if any this may have. You say that cached rpms "may be re-used"; what exactly does this mean? 7. I think a brief description of how yum works - eg what is meant by "metadata" and where it is stored - would be useful. I'd add a few words about rmp headers as well. 8. A few words on what to do about yum errors would be very useful, perhaps as a FAQ. 9. I would have suggested adding non-standard repositories to /etc/yum.repos.d/ with enabled=0 using yum with enablerepo=... when desired. 10. I think yum GPG keys cause more confusion than you realise. I would have mentioned the possibility of turning off key-checking in case one cannot find the key - of course as a second-best solution. =========================================== -- Timothy Murphy e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland From ivazquez at ivazquez.net Tue Jul 26 10:52:02 2005 From: ivazquez at ivazquez.net (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:52:02 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122375122.3550.11.camel@ignacio.lan> On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 11:42 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > 5. In case people are using sudo or su, > perhaps it should be mentioned that eg * should be given as \* > in yum search, etc. No, wildcards should *always* be escaped. -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams http://fedora.ivazquez.net/ gpg --keyserver hkp://subkeys.pgp.net --recv-key 38028b72 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 11:49:10 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:49:10 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122378550.3073.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Thanks for your comments, Timothy, they are appreciated. I'll let Stuart address the content part of this, but: On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 11:42 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > 0. I found the general approach slightly over-formal > even perhaps a tiny bit unfriendly. > But that is just a personal view. Official FDP material is, by nature, a bit more formal than what a lot of readers are used to seeing from third-party sites or venues like FedoraNews. We have fairly comprehensive style guidelines, and try to adhere to them whenever possible. Doing so reduces translation problems, adds to reader comprehension, and increases consistency in our documentation process. My personal predilection is for our work to look a lot like the language used in the old Red Hat Linux documentation, which is definitely a bit more formal, but easy to read, understand, and translate to other languages. > I would have put the "Revision history" as a link, > perhaps just leaving the date of the latest revision, > and the author or authors. This is generated as part of our current DocBook stylesheets, but maybe there's a way to make it come out as part of an appendix instead. Does anyone have any clues about this? > 10. I think yum GPG keys cause more confusion than you realise. > I would have mentioned the possibility of turning off key-checking > in case one cannot find the key - > of course as a second-best solution. I would not recommend that, nor do I think would any of our security-conscious writers. :-) GPG signatures on your packages ensure that you are not receiving tampered copies. Turning off GPG key checking increases your system's vulnerability, and is not a good idea. If you can find us some information on common yum/GPG problems, it might be possible to write some of that into a troubleshooting section. But as an official documentation group, we should be *extremely* cautious about telling anyone to decrease their security measures. Your other suggestions may have a good deal of merit; I'll leave it to Stuart as the author to consider them and post his thoughts. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 26 16:21:31 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:21:31 -0700 Subject: web/html/docs/release-notes index.php,1.5,1.6 In-Reply-To: <1122222854.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200507241552.j6OFqweG020343@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> <1122222854.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122394891.26275.156.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 12:34 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I wonder what the chances are of having the release-notes errata rolled > into a fedora-release update? Note that the fedora-maintainers list is > now tossing around the idea[1] of producing an update to allow for a > script to do a "rpm --import /etc/pki/rpm-gpg/RPM-GPG-KEY*". I don't > think we should lobby for doing this with every relnotes erratum, but > certainly with the addition of the big section on legally encumbered > material, it would be worth our while to piggyback there? We were discussing this with Elliot the other day. We have a fedora- release update in QA, aiui. We want to get a latest version in any update of fedora-release. If we can close most of the bugs, I'll ask Elliot to include a build in the next fedora-release update for FC4. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Wed Jul 27 00:46:02 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:46:02 +0100 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Thanks. I've now updated the document to: - List repositories provided by Fedora - Use wildcard characters escaped - Have a clearer explanation of yum clean and caches Comments on the other points are below. On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 11:42 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > > 2. I think a tutorial should concentrate on the ways > in which an application is most often used. > In the case of yum, I imagine 95% of the usage > is covered by "yum update" and "yum install". > I would have put these first - perhaps right at the beginning - > and put other variants in later sections, eg "Package groups". I actually structured earlier versions like this, but ended up consolidating all the common operations into section 4 because from the perspective of the end-user they work in basically the same way: type command > watch metadata files download > get transaction report > do operation. A certain amount of explanation is required for it to make sense, though, so the previous sections provide the context. Package groups might be better in a separate section, I don't know. I'll try it out tomorrow and see how that looks. > 3. I would have started by discussing the entries in /etc/yum.repos.d/ , > perhaps with model entries for the 3 standard repositories. > That would enable people to get started as quickly as possible. Yum in FC4 has been set up so it now isn't necessary to directly work with the contents of the configuration files at all for normal usage. It works out of the box, using the Fedora repositories, and you can add and remove third-party repositories by copying .repo files (or having an application do it). > 4. I definitely would omit the "su -c '...'" in the examples, > and just say you have to run yum as superuser, > perhaps once mentioning sudo and "su -c". It does look inelegant. The idea is that you can dive into the document at any point and get a command that works with no further explanation. My view is that sudo should be configured by anaconda to start with :) > 7. I think a brief description of how yum works - > eg what is meant by "metadata" and where it is stored - > would be useful. > I'd add a few words about rmp headers as well. The term headers was explained in a previous version, I think, and I'll try to work it back in without too much exposition. > 8. A few words on what to do about yum errors > would be very useful, perhaps as a FAQ. Hmm. Could you give an example of a specific yum error ? I would think that the most common problems are likely to be general network errors. > 9. I would have suggested adding non-standard repositories > to /etc/yum.repos.d/ with enabled=0 > using yum with enablerepo=... when desired. This involves editing the configuration files, and I don't think that you get much benefit from it, to be honest. > 10. I think yum GPG keys cause more confusion than you realise. > I would have mentioned the possibility of turning off key-checking > in case one cannot find the key - > of course as a second-best solution. Further to what Paul has said, this issue came up on the yum mailing list last week. The yum developers take a strong line on unsigned pacakges, and won't add features to make it easy for users to install them. Some proprietary vendors do supply their products as individual unsigned packages. For these cases, I'm not sure whether or not we should document: rpm -ivh the-vendor-is-an-idiot.1.i386.rpm Purely as a courtesy to Fedora users. I'm open to persuasion either way. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie Wed Jul 27 10:58:32 2005 From: tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:58:32 +0100 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Stuart Ellis wrote: >> 3. I would have started by discussing the entries in /etc/yum.repos.d/ , >> perhaps with model entries for the 3 standard repositories. >> That would enable people to get started as quickly as possible. > > Yum in FC4 has been set up so it now isn't necessary to directly work > with the contents of the configuration files at all for normal usage. > It works out of the box, using the Fedora repositories, and you can add > and remove third-party repositories by copying .repo files (or having an > application do it). I always replace the repositories given in the default entries by local repositories (I mean in Ireland, in my case). I don't know if that is standard practice. >> 8. A few words on what to do about yum errors >> would be very useful, perhaps as a FAQ. > > Hmm. Could you give an example of a specific yum error ? I would think > that the most common problems are likely to be general network errors. I don't think so. I think it is clear from postings to the general Fedora mailing list that by far the most common problem is dependencies that cannot be resolved. These generally seem to be due to an injudicious choice of repositories. You are the yum experts, but my advice in such a case would be that if "yum update" is failing and there is just one problematic package one should add "exclude=..." to yum.conf, at least temporarily. The other problem that comes up pretty often is to do with GPG keys. >> 10. I think yum GPG keys cause more confusion than you realise. >> I would have mentioned the possibility of turning off key-checking >> in case one cannot find the key - >> of course as a second-best solution. > > Further to what Paul has said, this issue came up on the yum mailing > list last week. The yum developers take a strong line on unsigned > pacakges, and won't add features to make it easy for users to install > them. That's fine. But if they feel strongly about it they should add something to the yum error messages to suggest where users might find missing keys. Incidentally, since the keys seem to be put in /etc and/or /usr/share/doc I don't know why installing yum doesn't install these keys at least. I was slightly perturbed by your belief that most yum difficulties arise from network problems since this certainly is not the case from my reading of postings on yum. I think every tutorial should have a FAQ section; and it is important that the FAQs should be questions that actually arise. All too often FAQs are used, in my view, for authors to add material they want to add rather than answering questions people are really likely to ask. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 12:06:33 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:06:33 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122465994.3125.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 01:46 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > 4. I definitely would omit the "su -c '...'" in the examples, > > and just say you have to run yum as superuser, > > perhaps once mentioning sudo and "su -c". > > It does look inelegant. The idea is that you can dive into the document > at any point and get a command that works with no further explanation. > > My view is that sudo should be configured by anaconda to start with :) Better yet, why isn't it just tied to consolehelper like other superuser programs? After all, there's not much you can do with yum that's really useful unless you've got that level of access. Then there would be no sudo required. I suspect this was a bit of a compromise on Seth's part. I suppose in the future it might be possible for something like a yum-generated dbus message that would alert the system you need superuser access, so it could generate a consolehelper-type prompt. > > 7. I think a brief description of how yum works - > > eg what is meant by "metadata" and where it is stored - > > would be useful. > > I'd add a few words about rmp headers as well. > > The term headers was explained in a previous version, I think, and > I'll try to work it back in without too much exposition. Let's be careful not to dump too much technical information into a procedural guide. This is precisely where a lot of documentation I see on the web goes wrong -- it becomes what I call a "core dump" which has limited additional use. When I started teaching Linux many years ago, I had to conquer the innate geek need to explain all the technical minutiae, simply because of how gosh-darned cool it all is. (And free! Did I mention free?) This tutorial does not need to explain, for example, the RPM format to teach people how to manage software on their systems. Keep the mission in mind at all times. Unless information actually helps someone get the job done, it's superfluous. That being said, certain concepts are irrevocably tied to understanding a procedure. Those should remain in the docs. > > 8. A few words on what to do about yum errors > > would be very useful, perhaps as a FAQ. > > Hmm. Could you give an example of a specific yum error ? I would think > that the most common problems are likely to be general network errors. Good point, see above! > > 9. I would have suggested adding non-standard repositories > > to /etc/yum.repos.d/ with enabled=0 > > using yum with enablerepo=... when desired. > > This involves editing the configuration files, and I don't think that > you get much benefit from it, to be honest. > > > 10. I think yum GPG keys cause more confusion than you realise. > > I would have mentioned the possibility of turning off key-checking > > in case one cannot find the key - > > of course as a second-best solution. > > Further to what Paul has said, this issue came up on the yum mailing > list last week. The yum developers take a strong line on unsigned > pacakges, and won't add features to make it easy for users to install > them. > > Some proprietary vendors do supply their products as individual unsigned > packages. For these cases, I'm not sure whether or not we should > document: > > rpm -ivh the-vendor-is-an-idiot.1.i386.rpm > > Purely as a courtesy to Fedora users. I'm open to persuasion either > way. My vote's against it. It's a very short hop for the uneducated to go from this to "rpm -ivh --force," or worse, "rpm -e --nodeps". ("Hey, why should I bother with yum? It puts all that crap on my screen.") Beyond which, I don't want to take a single step in the direction of how to deal with proprietary vendors. That's the best way to avoid a slippery slope argument on why we don't document use of other non-free software. Let me get off my soapbox before I take that too far, sorry. :-) As part of the official Voice of Fedora (sorry, getting geared up for that "V for Vendetta" movie), we should probably toe the party line on this one. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 12:21:13 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:21:13 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122466873.3125.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 11:58 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > Stuart Ellis wrote: > > >> 3. I would have started by discussing the entries in /etc/yum.repos.d/ , > >> perhaps with model entries for the 3 standard repositories. > >> That would enable people to get started as quickly as possible. > > > > Yum in FC4 has been set up so it now isn't necessary to directly work > > with the contents of the configuration files at all for normal usage. > > It works out of the box, using the Fedora repositories, and you can add > > and remove third-party repositories by copying .repo files (or having an > > application do it). > > I always replace the repositories given in the default entries > by local repositories (I mean in Ireland, in my case). > I don't know if that is standard practice. It's not, since the default entries are to mirror lists and not single sites. Your package requests go to a random mirror entry, meaning there's a basic and large-scale load balancing that happens without you having to do anything. What happens otherwise if your local repo is down? > >> 8. A few words on what to do about yum errors > >> would be very useful, perhaps as a FAQ. > > > > Hmm. Could you give an example of a specific yum error ? I would think > > that the most common problems are likely to be general network errors. > > I don't think so. > I think it is clear from postings to the general Fedora mailing list > that by far the most common problem is dependencies that cannot be resolved. > > These generally seem to be due to an injudicious choice of repositories. That never seems to happen with Fedora Core and Extras, as far as I'm aware -- or at least it never has happened to me, and I download random stuff sometimes just to see what happens. :-) Since Core and Extras are all we document, anything else is outside our scope. > You are the yum experts, but my advice in such a case would be > that if "yum update" is failing and there is just one problematic package > one should add "exclude=..." to yum.conf, at least temporarily. Actually, we're not yum experts, we just try our best. On good days, we pretend to be documentation experts. ;-) Hopefully the real yum experts are looking at the docs and also making suggestions. > The other problem that comes up pretty often is to do with GPG keys. > > >> 10. I think yum GPG keys cause more confusion than you realise. > >> I would have mentioned the possibility of turning off key-checking > >> in case one cannot find the key - > >> of course as a second-best solution. > > > > Further to what Paul has said, this issue came up on the yum mailing > > list last week. The yum developers take a strong line on unsigned > > pacakges, and won't add features to make it easy for users to install > > them. > > That's fine. > But if they feel strongly about it > they should add something to the yum error messages > to suggest where users might find missing keys. > > Incidentally, since the keys seem to be put in /etc and/or /usr/share/doc > I don't know why installing yum doesn't install these keys at least. It does, the first time you use each repository. (I'm speaking for FC4; I don't know the status of yum in FC2 or 3 right now.) The only keys included are for official Fedora repositories, for obvious reasons. Those keys are now kept in /etc/pki/rpm-gpg/ in FC4. If you pick up a .repo file from some other place, the author of that file (probably the repository owner) should have a URL for their repo's GPG key in that file. If they do, yum asks you if you want to import that key. If the repo owner doesn't sign a package, or signs it wrong, yum can't fix that. Again, Core and Extras are always built and signed by the Fedora build systems (mostly automated now), so this tends not to happen there. Other repos probably do similar things, but the Fedora Project doesn't have any say in what they do. > I was slightly perturbed by your belief > that most yum difficulties arise from network problems > since this certainly is not the case from my reading of postings on yum. Please don't be perturbed, it was just Stuart's opinion. Opinions can be uninformed; that's why we have discussions. I don't know either way. > I think every tutorial should have a FAQ section; > and it is important that the FAQs should be questions > that actually arise. > All too often FAQs are used, in my view, > for authors to add material they want to add > rather than answering questions people are really likely to ask. I don't think every tutorial should have a FAQ section. But I do agree that user questions that the tutorial doesn't answer -- *and* which are in the scope of the tutorial and this project as a whole -- should be fixed in the tutorial. That's why Fedora Documentation now has its own product category on Bugzilla. If you have a question that doesn't get answered in a document that we publish, you can file a bug against it, just like with a piece of software that doesn't work the way you like. We are really excited that we will be able to track this kind of work with the same tools and precision used by the Fedora software developers. I hope you'll take advantage of it. In the meantime, I look forward to hearing your take on the issues I raise above. Thanks for your continued input, since it is very helpful to us. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From romttrom at ybb.ne.jp Wed Jul 27 13:34:27 2005 From: romttrom at ybb.ne.jp (Yoshihiro Totaka) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:34:27 +0900 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <1122466873.3125.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122466873.3125.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42E78D63.3080702@ybb.ne.jp> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 11:58 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > >>Stuart Ellis wrote: >> >> >>>>3. I would have started by discussing the entries in /etc/yum.repos.d/ , >>>>perhaps with model entries for the 3 standard repositories. >>>>That would enable people to get started as quickly as possible. >>> >>>Yum in FC4 has been set up so it now isn't necessary to directly work >>>with the contents of the configuration files at all for normal usage. >>>It works out of the box, using the Fedora repositories, and you can add >>>and remove third-party repositories by copying .repo files (or having an >>>application do it). >> >>I always replace the repositories given in the default entries >>by local repositories (I mean in Ireland, in my case). >>I don't know if that is standard practice. > > > It's not, since the default entries are to mirror lists and not single > sites. Your package requests go to a random mirror entry, meaning > there's a basic and large-scale load balancing that happens without you > having to do anything. What happens otherwise if your local repo is > down? > There is a country mirror list and simply adding country code to default mirror list works. I am living in Japan and using default mirror list is unbearably slow. So I am using following following mirror lists. http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/fedora-core-$releasever.jp Mentioning of these country mirror list would be nice. (I am not saying everyone should use it.) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 2005/07/25 From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 13:49:40 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:49:40 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <42E78D63.3080702@ybb.ne.jp> References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122466873.3125.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42E78D63.3080702@ybb.ne.jp> Message-ID: <1122472180.3321.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 22:34 +0900, Yoshihiro Totaka wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 11:58 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > > > >>Stuart Ellis wrote: > >> > >> > >>>>3. I would have started by discussing the entries in /etc/yum.repos.d/ , > >>>>perhaps with model entries for the 3 standard repositories. > >>>>That would enable people to get started as quickly as possible. > >>> > >>>Yum in FC4 has been set up so it now isn't necessary to directly work > >>>with the contents of the configuration files at all for normal usage. > >>>It works out of the box, using the Fedora repositories, and you can add > >>>and remove third-party repositories by copying .repo files (or having an > >>>application do it). > >> > >>I always replace the repositories given in the default entries > >>by local repositories (I mean in Ireland, in my case). > >>I don't know if that is standard practice. > > > > > > It's not, since the default entries are to mirror lists and not single > > sites. Your package requests go to a random mirror entry, meaning > > there's a basic and large-scale load balancing that happens without you > > having to do anything. What happens otherwise if your local repo is > > down? > > > > There is a country mirror list and simply adding country code to default > mirror list works. I am living in Japan and using default mirror list is > unbearably slow. So I am using following following mirror lists. > http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/fedora-core-$releasever.jp > Mentioning of these country mirror list would be nice. > (I am not saying everyone should use it.) This is not a bad idea, but I notice that in quite a few cases, the country-specific mirrors are only one server. Since intracontinental bandwidth is generally good (right?), this may not be strictly necessary. Of course, if you don't use it at all, chances are pretty good that quite a bit of EMEA traffic will end up coming to the US. My understanding is that's still undesirable. Anybody know differently? For what it's worth, I usually add the .us.east to the end of mine, as well. Perhaps it's worth filing a bug against firstboot to see if the developers can incorporate a way to feed the country mirror list to the user for selection? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Wed Jul 27 20:14:58 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:14:58 +0100 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <1122465994.3125.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122465994.3125.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122495299.3292.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 08:06 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > 7. I think a brief description of how yum works - > > > eg what is meant by "metadata" and where it is stored - > > > would be useful. > > > I'd add a few words about rmp headers as well. > > > > The term headers was explained in a previous version, I think, and > > I'll try to work it back in without too much exposition. > > Let's be careful not to dump too much technical information into a > procedural guide. This is precisely where a lot of documentation I see > on the web goes wrong -- it becomes what I call a "core dump" which has > limited additional use. When I started teaching Linux many years ago, I > had to conquer the innate geek need to explain all the technical > minutiae, simply because of how gosh-darned cool it all is. (And free! > Did I mention free?) Yum is definitely darn cool :). The term header file is exposed in a couple of places, so something like the phrase "yum downloads a data file, or header, for each package". I don't really want to discuss metadata in any more depth than that here, because it is intended as a document for users rather than developers. > > > 8. A few words on what to do about yum errors > > > would be very useful, perhaps as a FAQ. > > > > Hmm. Could you give an example of a specific yum error ? I would think > > that the most common problems are likely to be general network errors. To clarify this - with the default configuration and the default repositories yum should work without incident. It gets less certain if you customize the configuration, use development versions of yum, or get interesting RPMs from vendors... One kind of issue that I've seen pop up on the yum list which is definitely relevant to Fedora users with a standard setup is dealing with proxies, so I put in section 10 to address this. If you have other connectivity issues then those will temporarily kill yum dead as well. Section 7.3 was written with the current situation of third-party repositories overlapping with Extras in mind, but it is rather vaguely worded. I've now altered it - hopefully it will help make things clearer. > > Some proprietary vendors do supply their products as individual unsigned > > packages. For these cases, I'm not sure whether or not we should > > document: > > > > rpm -ivh the-vendor-is-an-idiot.1.i386.rpm > > > > Purely as a courtesy to Fedora users. I'm open to persuasion either > > way. > > My vote's against it. It's a very short hop for the uneducated to go > from this to "rpm -ivh --force," or worse, "rpm -e --nodeps". Ugh. > Beyond which, I don't want to take a single step in the direction of how > to deal with proprietary vendors. That's the best way to avoid a > slippery slope argument on why we don't document use of other non-free > software. Yes, we don't want to go there, either. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 27 20:42:10 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:42:10 -0700 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <1122466873.3125.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122466873.3125.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122496930.26275.190.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 08:21 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 11:58 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > > > > I always replace the repositories given in the default entries > > by local repositories (I mean in Ireland, in my case). > > I don't know if that is standard practice. > > It's not, since the default entries are to mirror lists and not single > sites. Your package requests go to a random mirror entry, meaning > there's a basic and large-scale load balancing that happens without you > having to do anything. What happens otherwise if your local repo is > down? I wonder if the idea of having repositories package their .repo and other files in an RPM is going to take hold? As long as the Core and Extras repositories do that, we can use them as an example in such a way that users understand they can do the same with a repo package from their favorite outside repository. Keeping our focus on *only* what ships in Core and Extras makes our jobs both easier and hard. The old rule that, "When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly every problem looks like a nail," that can happen to us. However, it is awfully nice to have a scope. This is my way of saying that I concur with Paul's assessment about discussing with outside repositories. One way to be helpful could be, if we had an FAQ with a question that would have an answer of, "Don't cross the repository streams," we can just tell people that if they are using non-Core or Extras repositories, they may have conflicts between packages in those files, yadda yadda yadda. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Wed Jul 27 21:42:40 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:42:40 +0100 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <1122496930.26275.190.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122466873.3125.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122496930.26275.190.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1122500560.3292.67.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 13:42 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > One way to be helpful could be, if we had an FAQ with a question that > would have an answer of, "Don't cross the repository streams," we can > just tell people that if they are using non-Core or Extras repositories, > they may have conflicts between packages in those files, yadda yadda > yadda. I've just committed to CVS an amended section on "Understanding Repository Compatibility" (sn-compat-repositories), with some stuff on third-party repository compatibility. Hopefully that will help encourage people to be careful with repository mixing. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jul 28 00:56:48 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:56:48 -0700 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <1122500560.3292.67.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122466873.3125.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122496930.26275.190.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122500560.3292.67.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122512208.26275.205.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 22:42 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 13:42 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > One way to be helpful could be, if we had an FAQ with a question that > > would have an answer of, "Don't cross the repository streams," we can > > just tell people that if they are using non-Core or Extras repositories, > > they may have conflicts between packages in those files, yadda yadda > > yadda. > > I've just committed to CVS an amended section on "Understanding > Repository Compatibility" (sn-compat-repositories), with some stuff on > third-party repository compatibility. Hopefully that will help encourage > people to be careful with repository mixing. I updated the beta, should be live within the hour at: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/beta/yum-software-management/ -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 11:51:31 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:51:31 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial In-Reply-To: <1122496930.26275.190.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122466873.3125.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122496930.26275.190.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1122551492.3143.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 13:42 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 08:21 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 11:58 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > > > > > > I always replace the repositories given in the default entries > > > by local repositories (I mean in Ireland, in my case). > > > I don't know if that is standard practice. > > > > It's not, since the default entries are to mirror lists and not single > > sites. Your package requests go to a random mirror entry, meaning > > there's a basic and large-scale load balancing that happens without you > > having to do anything. What happens otherwise if your local repo is > > down? > > I wonder if the idea of having repositories package their .repo and > other files in an RPM is going to take hold? As long as the Core and > Extras repositories do that, we can use them as an example in such a way > that users understand they can do the same with a repo package from > their favorite outside repository. > > Keeping our focus on *only* what ships in Core and Extras makes our jobs > both easier and hard. The old rule that, "When the only tool you have > is a hammer, suddenly every problem looks like a nail," that can happen > to us. However, it is awfully nice to have a scope. Strangely, the other day I was thinking about another cautionary axiom for the FOSS world, which is "Even if you just discovered a toolbox full of fizzgigs, hoojybodgies and whatsits, sometimes the nail pops need to be addressed first. Use the hammer for that." I hope that my admitting this isn't somehow undermining your point; I just had to get it off my chest. > This is my way of saying that I concur with Paul's assessment about > discussing with outside repositories. > > One way to be helpful could be, if we had an FAQ with a question that > would have an answer of, "Don't cross the repository streams," we can > just tell people that if they are using non-Core or Extras repositories, > they may have conflicts between packages in those files, yadda yadda > yadda. Since Extras became fully open to community participation, there's a lot fewer problems with repository conflicts. Most of the third-party repos have tended to drop things that are appearing in Extras, meaning that most conflicts occur between different third-party repos. A few of them are consolidating to address the problem. Some claim there is no problem. Some are correct. Since so many of them are offering legally encumbered solutions, it's a touchy situation for us to address. Telling people "don't cross the repo streams" (I like this one!) may not be as accurate as "don't cross *certain* repo streams," but we need to stay out of that morass AFAIC. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From beartooth at adelphia.net Wed Jul 27 20:25:26 2005 From: beartooth at adelphia.net (Beartooth SenectoFlatuloid) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:25:26 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial -- one example : galeon References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:58:32 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > Stuart Ellis wrote: > >>> 8. A few words on what to do about yum errors would be very useful, >>> perhaps as a FAQ. >> >> Hmm. Could you give an example of a specific yum error ? I would think >> that the most common problems are likely to be general network errors. > > I don't think so. > I think it is clear from postings to the general Fedora mailing list > that by far the most common problem is dependencies that cannot be > resolved. > > These generally seem to be due to an injudicious choice of repositories. > > You are the yum experts, but my advice in such a case would be that if > "yum update" is failing and there is just one problematic package one > should add "exclude=..." to yum.conf, at least temporarily. [....] > I was slightly perturbed by your belief that most yum difficulties arise > from network problems since this certainly is not the case from my > reading of postings on yum. I'm just a thoroughly subtechnoid user, and I mean every syllable of my .sig motto; so I can't speak to the actual issue. But I do have an example you might could use. When I first installed FC4 and had run yum update, I ran yum install galeon, on the faint chance it might eventually work some day. (I gave up galeon -- then my favorite browser -- years ago, when its dependency hell with mozilla got too much for me. I've kept mozilla, which I detest, ever since on the same faint hope.) Much to my delight and amazement, it worked. Galeon runs -- on that one machine. A few days later, when I tried it again on other newer FC4 installs (on older machines), I got dependency hell again. And still do. Such galeon developers as have responded to my post on 7/23 to gmane.comp.web.galeon.user (titled Dependency hell *again*) don't seem to think there's anything they can and want to do. As I said there, I have no idea whether this is a yum problem, a repo problem, or something still different. (They seem to be saying it's not a galeon problem.) But if it's not a galeon problem, it *looks* like one of those two (if they're really different) to such uninformed users as myself -- and likely gets called one on lists ... Maybe someone here can at least tell why this trouble is chronic with galeon/yum, and yet not with epiphany nor firefox. (I've never encountered it with either, and have been using both for years.) -- Beartooth Senectoflatuloid, Neo-Redneck, Linux Convert Remember, I have precious little idea what I am talking about. From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 15:05:55 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:05:55 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial -- one example : galeon In-Reply-To: References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122563156.3143.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 16:25 -0400, Beartooth SenectoFlatuloid wrote: [...snip...] > When I first installed FC4 and had run yum update, I ran yum install > galeon, on the faint chance it might eventually work some day. (I gave up > galeon -- then my favorite browser -- years ago, when its dependency hell > with mozilla got too much for me. I've kept mozilla, which I detest, ever > since on the same faint hope.) > > Much to my delight and amazement, it worked. Galeon runs -- on that one > machine. > > A few days later, when I tried it again on other newer FC4 installs (on > older machines), I got dependency hell again. And still do. Such galeon > developers as have responded to my post on 7/23 to > gmane.comp.web.galeon.user (titled Dependency hell *again*) don't seem to > think there's anything they can and want to do. > > As I said there, I have no idea whether this is a yum problem, a repo > problem, or something still different. (They seem to be saying it's not > a galeon problem.) But if it's not a galeon problem, it *looks* like one > of those two (if they're really different) to such uninformed users as > myself -- and likely gets called one on lists ... > > Maybe someone here can at least tell why this trouble is chronic with > galeon/yum, and yet not with epiphany nor firefox. (I've never encountered > it with either, and have been using both for years.) Normally I would tell you that you need to address this problem *not* with us, *nor* with the galeon developers (who have nothing to do with RPM or yum dependency problems), but on the fedora-list (http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list/), IRC #fedora or FedoraForum.org. But we *did* ask for examples, so here's some free help with our compliments. ;-) I just ran "yum install" and the problem seems obvious to me (and probably more experienced users), not so much if you're just getting wet: [...] Resolving Dependencies --> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait. ---> Downloading header for galeon to pack into transaction set. galeon-1.3.21-8.fc4.i386. 100% |=========================| 38 kB 00:00 ---> Package galeon.i386 0:1.3.21-8.fc4 set to be updated --> Running transaction check --> Processing Dependency: mozilla = 37:1.7.8 for package: galeon --> Finished Dependency Resolution Error: Missing Dependency: mozilla = 37:1.7.8 is needed by package galeon The galeon package currently in Extras has been packaged to use mozilla version 1.7.8 (and *only* 1.7.8, that's what the equals sign "=" means). However: [pfrields at localhost ~]$ rpm -q mozilla mozilla-1.7.10-1.5.1 So there's the problem. The galeon package wants mozilla version 1.7.8, but 1.7.10 is what's on FC4 currently. If you query Bugzilla for information on galeon in Fedora Extras, you'll see a bug open for this problem. Expect resolution Real Soon Now. I'm not sure how we can approach this in the yum tutorial, short of getting into explaining RPM spec tags such as Requires:. Let's not do that. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From beartooth at adelphia.net Thu Jul 28 17:02:38 2005 From: beartooth at adelphia.net (Beartooth SenectoFlatuloid) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:02:38 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial -- one example : galeon References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122563156.3143.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:05:55 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 16:25 -0400, Beartooth SenectoFlatuloid wrote: > [...snip...] >> As I said there, I have no idea whether this is a yum problem, a repo >> problem, or something still different. (They seem to be saying it's not >> a galeon problem.) But if it's not a galeon problem, it *looks* like one >> of those two (if they're really different) to such uninformed users as >> myself -- and likely gets called one on lists ... >> >> Maybe someone here can at least tell why this trouble is chronic with >> galeon/yum, and yet not with epiphany nor firefox. (I've never encountered >> it with either, and have been using both for years.) > > Normally I would tell you that you need to address this problem *not* > with us, *nor* with the galeon developers (who have nothing to do with > RPM or yum dependency problems), but on the fedora-list > (http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list/), IRC #fedora or > FedoraForum.org. But we *did* ask for examples, so here's some free > help with our compliments. ;-) Yes, that' the only reason I troubled you with it; but thanks a million for the extra mile! > I just ran "yum install" and the problem seems obvious to me (and > probably more experienced users), not so much if you're just getting > wet: > > [...] > Resolving Dependencies [....] > The galeon package currently in Extras has been packaged to use mozilla > version 1.7.8 (and *only* 1.7.8, that's what the equals sign "=" means). > However: > > [pfrields at localhost ~]$ rpm -q mozilla mozilla-1.7.10-1.5.1 > > So there's the problem. The galeon package wants mozilla version 1.7.8, > but 1.7.10 is what's on FC4 currently. If you query Bugzilla for > information on galeon in Fedora Extras, you'll see a bug open for this > problem. Expect resolution Real Soon Now. So, if I understand you right, it amounts to a repo problem? I.e., the one(s) with galeon have it packaged not to accept versions later than ...? At any rate, I'm very glad indeed to hear that Real Soon Now! Again, many, many thanks! -- Beartooth Senectoflatuloid, Neo-Redneck, Linux Convert Remember, I have precious little idea what I am talking about. From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 17:08:22 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:08:22 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on the yum tutorial -- one example : galeon In-Reply-To: References: <1122425162.6634.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122563156.3143.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1122570502.3143.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 13:02 -0400, Beartooth SenectoFlatuloid wrote: > > I just ran "yum install" and the problem seems obvious to me (and > > probably more experienced users), not so much if you're just getting > > wet: > > > > [...] > > Resolving Dependencies > [....] > > The galeon package currently in Extras has been packaged to use mozilla > > version 1.7.8 (and *only* 1.7.8, that's what the equals sign "=" means). > > However: > > > > [pfrields at localhost ~]$ rpm -q mozilla mozilla-1.7.10-1.5.1 > > > > So there's the problem. The galeon package wants mozilla version 1.7.8, > > but 1.7.10 is what's on FC4 currently. If you query Bugzilla for > > information on galeon in Fedora Extras, you'll see a bug open for this > > problem. Expect resolution Real Soon Now. > > So, if I understand you right, it amounts to a repo problem? I.e., the > one(s) with galeon have it packaged not to accept versions later than ...? > At any rate, I'm very glad indeed to hear that Real Soon Now! > > Again, many, many thanks! Not an overall repo problem, really, but a problem with just that particular package *in* that repo. (Which I think is what you meant in any case.) Since the repo in question is Fedora Extras, and since I saw a Bugzilla entry for this specific issue, rest assured it should be remedied. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From admin at buddhalinux.com Thu Jul 28 16:26:27 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:26:27 -0500 Subject: Odd Behavior with Fedora Entity Message-ID: <200507281126.33745.admin@buddhalinux.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I was reviewing the entities in the current --- fedora-entities-en.ent. And noticed a rather peculiar behavior. One which I assume was expected to behave in a different fashion. It has to do with: LEGALNOTICE-RELNOTES Now I put this entity in my bookinfo/articleinfo element. Anyways, upon building the source, the xml processor is directed to generate a link labeled "Legal Notice". This in effect generates a seperate page entirely with the content of the LEGALNOTICE-RELNOTES entity and it is pointed to from this link. This page is entirely blank minus the content of the entity. No header or footer etc.... No good. http://www.buddhalinux.com/images/snapshot5.png I don't believe that this is the intended behavior. It is my assumption[yeah i know] that (like many other doc projects) that this entity was intended to be called from the abstract element of bookinfo/articleinfo. Personally, i think it provides a better reference to the licensing than a simple link. However, in order to do so. There must be a change to the content of the common file - --- legalnotice-relnotes-en.xml. In essence, this file contains common elements like that of legalnotice-content-en.xml. A simple removal of the legalnotice element parent in legalnotice-relnotes-en.xml corrects the problem and the entities behave as is expected. http://www.buddhalinux.com/images/snapshot4.png I have generated a diff against the current cvs: Index: docs-common/common/legalnotice-relnotes-en.xml =================================================================== RCS file: /cvs/docs/docs-common/common/legalnotice-relnotes-en.xml,v retrieving revision 1.2 diff -u -r1.2 legalnotice-relnotes-en.xml - --- docs-common/common/legalnotice-relnotes-en.xml 19 Jul 2005 20:41:03 -0000 1.2 +++ docs-common/common/legalnotice-relnotes-en.xml 29 Jul 2005 04:13:57 -0000 @@ -7,9 +7,7 @@ ]> --> - - - - This document is released under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation + This document is released under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License. For more details, read the full legalnotice in . - - - - + linkend="sn-legalnotice" />. + -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC6QczoR5cE1e/kEIRAstOAJ9yqJ1chxOUqcoe6b5yQUQXiNOAxACgpMmx akmkJvlFB5u+CvltQ0SBT9A= =LdF7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 29 07:36:35 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:36:35 -0700 Subject: Odd Behavior with Fedora Entity In-Reply-To: <200507281126.33745.admin@buddhalinux.com> References: <200507281126.33745.admin@buddhalinux.com> Message-ID: <1122622595.5322.17.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 11:26 -0500, Thomas Jones wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I was reviewing the entities in the current --- fedora-entities-en.ent. And > noticed a rather peculiar behavior. One which I assume was expected to behave > in a different fashion. > > It has to do with: LEGALNOTICE-RELNOTES This entity is intended to be used for the release notes only, especially when printing no-chunks HTML. It's purpose is to leave the semantic entity with meaningful content, but to move most of the text out of the way. Otherwise, in no-chunks output the legalnotice is predominant and distracting. You want to use the traditional LEGALNOTICE, which calls in docs- common/common/legalnotice-en.xml. Within that file is called LEGALNOTICE-CONTENT. There is your actual license et al. > Now I put this entity in my bookinfo/articleinfo element. Anyways, upon > building the source, the xml processor is directed to generate a link labeled > "Legal Notice". This in effect generates a seperate page entirely with the > content of the LEGALNOTICE-RELNOTES entity and it is pointed to from this > link. This page is entirely blank minus the content of the entity. No header > or footer etc.... No good. When LEGALNOTICE-RELNOTES is used, the appears where the element may be used in DocBook. The content is minimal, and it points at a
that exists otherwise. In that
, the entity LEGALNOTICE-CONTENT is called in. I should probably rename -RELNOTES to LEGALNOTICE-NOCHUNKS, as its main purpose is when doing a no-chunks HTML build. hth - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From admin at buddhalinux.com Fri Jul 29 02:48:38 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:48:38 -0500 Subject: Odd Behavior with Fedora Entity In-Reply-To: <1122622595.5322.17.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <200507281126.33745.admin@buddhalinux.com> <1122622595.5322.17.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200507282148.46929.admin@buddhalinux.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 29 July 2005 02:36, Karsten Wade wrote: > > When LEGALNOTICE-RELNOTES is used, the appears where the > element may be used in DocBook. The content is minimal, and it points > at a
that exists otherwise. In that
, the entity > LEGALNOTICE-CONTENT is called in. > > I should probably rename -RELNOTES to LEGALNOTICE-NOCHUNKS, as its main > purpose is when doing a no-chunks HTML build. > > hth - Karsten Ugghhh. Assumptions. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC6ZkLoR5cE1e/kEIRAjguAJ0ZncQ+Ra81vr1XFTlybrfoFkejqgCgiMx/ K8Pj2+xEohWfSSfm6huLik8= =q74i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gfarr at purdue.edu Fri Jul 29 16:27:25 2005 From: gfarr at purdue.edu (Farr, Gregory C) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:27:25 -0500 Subject: Documentation in RTF/PDF request Message-ID: <7656BF72700B5249A6DD9D41F258D61E0121438B@EXCH02.purdue.lcl> Dear Docs guys, I'm looking to find a way where I can print out some of the FC4 documentation (Release Notes, Installation Guide, Jargon Buster, Keeping Up to Date, and the Developer's Guide) into either RTF or PDF (preferably) so we can have them for reference around our office. Is there any way I can do this or any way I could be provided with the documents in those formats? Thanks. Gregory Farr Assistant Network Engineer Network Operations Center - Purdue University - SCCA 59 noc at purdue.edu 765-49-66200 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 17:25:09 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:25:09 -0400 Subject: Documentation in RTF/PDF request In-Reply-To: <7656BF72700B5249A6DD9D41F258D61E0121438B@EXCH02.purdue.lcl> References: <7656BF72700B5249A6DD9D41F258D61E0121438B@EXCH02.purdue.lcl> Message-ID: <1122657910.18487.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 11:27 -0500, Farr, Gregory C wrote: > I?m looking to find a way where I can print out some of the FC4 > documentation (Release Notes, Installation Guide, Jargon Buster, > Keeping Up to Date, and the Developer?s Guide) into either RTF or PDF > (preferably) so we can have them for reference around our office. Is > there any way I can do this or any way I could be provided with the > documents in those formats? Gregory, We don't have RTF format, but we do have an HTML "one-chunk" version, meaning that the whole document appears as a single HTML file. You can load that in your Web browser of choice and then print it. Assuming you have Fedora installed somewhere, you can do the following: 1. Get the docs from CVS by following the instructions here: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ (see "CVS Access") 2. For each doc you want to build, just "cd" to that directory and issue the following command: make html-nochunks 3. When you're finished you'll see a subdirectory to which you can point your Web browser, and then print the resulting document. This is a stopgap measure only, and we're sorry this requires a bit too much work on your part. I'm filing a bug against our web site, so that we can add this format to our web site and thus require less work from people who simply want to read or print these docs. The bug is located at: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/164648 -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 18:39:41 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:39:41 -0400 Subject: CSS for HTML output Message-ID: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Pursuant to the following bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=159147 ...I made some changes to the CSS in the Docs Project CVS. Rahul was looking (correctly, Karsten and I think) for a look that would differentiate our docs from Red Hat's. Most of our style sheet comes from the one that Red Hat uses, in particular the coloration of headings and admonitions. I moved the headings to a blue color taken directly from the Fedora web site CSS (the sidebar, to be more specific), and for the admonition boxes, I came up with a yellow that is hopefully attention-getting without being garish. I left the coloration of screen sections alone since there wasn't a clear reason to change it. Refer to a mock-up here to avoid having to build anything yourself: http://docs.frields.org/mirror-tutorial-en/sn-planning-and-setup.html If I can speak for Karsten, pursuant to a conversation we had today, we would like to know what people think about adopting this CSS for DocBook generated pages on the fedora.redhat.com web site. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From admin at buddhalinux.com Fri Jul 29 08:17:51 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:17:51 -0500 Subject: CSS for HTML output In-Reply-To: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507290317.53590.admin@buddhalinux.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 29 July 2005 13:39, Paul W. Frields wrote: > If I can speak for Karsten, pursuant to a conversation we had today, we > would like to know what people think about adopting this CSS for DocBook > generated pages on the fedora.redhat.com web site. Personally, I like the changes. However, I would like to make one suggestion somewhat related to the changes currently implemented. Could we get a declared hyperlink color designation? Right now, the color is system and/or browser independent. Seems as though if a standardized "look and feel" of the documentation is the intention that this also should be included in the stylesheet as well. Otherwise, the documentation is rendered inconsistently for the end-user base. Just a suggestion. Thomas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC6eYvoR5cE1e/kEIRAo3fAJ4txeyzgAt5zy296FtZ1hDr+2zVzgCgix29 fgnWPAfgbRmEIrTjFAVIlbM= =YZO3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 29 20:20:07 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:20:07 -0700 Subject: CSS for HTML output In-Reply-To: <200507290317.53590.admin@buddhalinux.com> References: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200507290317.53590.admin@buddhalinux.com> Message-ID: <1122668407.5322.28.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 03:17 -0500, Thomas Jones wrote: > However, I would like to make one suggestion somewhat related to the changes > currently implemented. Could we get a declared hyperlink color designation? > Right now, the color is system and/or browser independent. Seems as though if > a standardized "look and feel" of the documentation is the intention that > this also should be included in the stylesheet as well. Otherwise, the > documentation is rendered inconsistently for the end-user base. We could do that, makes sense. Any reason not to use the good ol' default blue? and purple for vlink? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 21:23:58 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:23:58 -0400 Subject: CSS for HTML output In-Reply-To: <1122668407.5322.28.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200507290317.53590.admin@buddhalinux.com> <1122668407.5322.28.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1122672238.3414.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 13:20 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 03:17 -0500, Thomas Jones wrote: > > > However, I would like to make one suggestion somewhat related to the changes > > currently implemented. Could we get a declared hyperlink color designation? > > Right now, the color is system and/or browser independent. Seems as though if > > a standardized "look and feel" of the documentation is the intention that > > this also should be included in the stylesheet as well. Otherwise, the > > documentation is rendered inconsistently for the end-user base. > > We could do that, makes sense. Any reason not to use the good ol' > default blue? and purple for vlink? Isn't the color system and/or browser *dependent*? In other words, the links are colored exactly the way any generic link is colored for the end user, meaning they don't see anything they don't recognize. However, I'm not against changing them, as long as we (a) agree on what sticks out without sticking out TOO much, and (b) it is nicely Fedora-like. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From admin at buddhalinux.com Fri Jul 29 11:02:29 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:02:29 -0500 Subject: CSS for HTML output In-Reply-To: <1122672238.3414.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122668407.5322.28.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122672238.3414.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507290602.36618.admin@buddhalinux.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 29 July 2005 16:23, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Isn't the color system and/or browser *dependent*? In other words, the > links are colored exactly the way any generic link is colored for the > end user, meaning they don't see anything they don't recognize. > However, I'm not against changing them, as long as we (a) agree on what > sticks out without sticking out TOO much, and (b) it is nicely > Fedora-like. Oops...you are right. ;) The "generic" link is inherently capable of being different on every node. Which brings to light the issue of fedora-like representation to the end-user. I like what yourself and Karsten have done with the new scheme. I personally would think that some colors that promote a fedora-like visual appearance would be great. The accepted standard of blue/purple are a safe bet. But then again another selection from you/Karsten may provide more cohesion with the new scheme. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC6gzJoR5cE1e/kEIRArbXAJ9dny/ScL+ixm9fAWB4UDRVzvdBIACgyxKl HyG3k6usCG2Jq9NhXneaO/4= =3VRY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stickster at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 01:47:40 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:47:40 -0400 Subject: CSS for HTML output In-Reply-To: <200507290602.36618.admin@buddhalinux.com> References: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122668407.5322.28.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122672238.3414.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200507290602.36618.admin@buddhalinux.com> Message-ID: <1122688060.3414.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 06:02 -0500, Thomas Jones wrote: > On Friday 29 July 2005 16:23, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Isn't the color system and/or browser *dependent*? In other words, the > > links are colored exactly the way any generic link is colored for the > > end user, meaning they don't see anything they don't recognize. > > However, I'm not against changing them, as long as we (a) agree on what > > sticks out without sticking out TOO much, and (b) it is nicely > > Fedora-like. > > Oops...you are right. ;) The "generic" link is inherently capable of being > different on every node. Which brings to light the issue of fedora-like > representation to the end-user. > > I like what yourself and Karsten have done with the new scheme. I personally > would think that some colors that promote a fedora-like visual appearance > would be great. The accepted standard of blue/purple are a safe bet. But then > again another selection from you/Karsten may provide more cohesion with the > new scheme. I made another change to the heading color and link colors, this time to be more adherent to the official web site. I think you'll like the results! Please check the mockup at: http://docs.frields.org/mirror-tutorial-en/sn-planning-and-setup.html -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From admin at buddhalinux.com Fri Jul 29 13:55:51 2005 From: admin at buddhalinux.com (Thomas Jones) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:55:51 -0500 Subject: CSS for HTML output In-Reply-To: <1122688060.3414.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200507290602.36618.admin@buddhalinux.com> <1122688060.3414.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507290855.57163.admin@buddhalinux.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 29 July 2005 20:47, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > I made another change to the heading color and link colors, this time to > be more adherent to the official web site. I think you'll like the > results! Please check the mockup at: > > http://docs.frields.org/mirror-tutorial-en/sn-planning-and-setup.html Awesome! IMHO, I think that it perfectly represents the fedora appearance. You hit it right on the head. ;) Anybody else's opinion? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC6jVroR5cE1e/kEIRAiTGAJ9Y8V4YAOFQgWkDtnWGqAWKLwFDSgCfWUph m1odrAOC3Pq0U34SFhSeAd0= =5PCk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stickster at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 15:16:42 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:16:42 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Cannot get mock to work] Message-ID: <1122736603.2996.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Seth is making a plea hereunder for some help with mock documentation. We have some developer types on this list who are not overworked (yet); could anyone spare him some time? If you watch the other lists, you see how busy he and the rest of the Fedora Infrastructure have been and will continue to be for some time, as they take advantage of the longer release cycle for FC5 to build out some much-needed bits of the project. Seth, if you don't get a response here, please let me know what you need and I'll do my best. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: seth vidal Subject: Re: Cannot get mock to work Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:24:30 -0400 Size: 3857 URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 15:30:42 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:30:42 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Cannot get mock to work] In-Reply-To: <1122737213.7609.18.camel@cutter> References: <1122736603.2996.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122737213.7609.18.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1122737443.3935.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 11:26 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 11:16 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Seth is making a plea hereunder for some help with mock documentation. > > We have some developer types on this list who are not overworked (yet); > > could anyone spare him some time? If you watch the other lists, you see > > how busy he and the rest of the Fedora Infrastructure have been and will > > continue to be for some time, as they take advantage of the longer > > release cycle for FC5 to build out some much-needed bits of the project. > > I didn't realize I was making a plea. :) Editor, thy name is hyperbole. ;-) > I was just talking about working on a man page and some better examples > in the readme as well as making a webpage, at all. > > The plan for the webpage is simply to put them in the wiki and have a > file-dump point for tarballs and what not somewhere else on > fedoraproject.org. > > That's all. OK, just trying to rustle up some assistance since things have been a little slow on our list of late. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Jul 30 18:28:22 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:28:22 -0700 Subject: CSS for HTML output In-Reply-To: <200507290855.57163.admin@buddhalinux.com> References: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200507290602.36618.admin@buddhalinux.com> <1122688060.3414.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200507290855.57163.admin@buddhalinux.com> Message-ID: <1122748102.5322.47.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 08:55 -0500, Thomas Jones wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Friday 29 July 2005 20:47, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > > I made another change to the heading color and link colors, this time to > > be more adherent to the official web site. I think you'll like the > > results! Please check the mockup at: > > > > http://docs.frields.org/mirror-tutorial-en/sn-planning-and-setup.html > > Awesome! IMHO, I think that it perfectly represents the fedora appearance. You > hit it right on the head. ;) > > Anybody else's opinion? Totally. The lightening of the header blue makes them stand out, the contrasts are all nice. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Jul 31 01:17:55 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:17:55 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Cannot get mock to work] In-Reply-To: <1122737443.3935.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122736603.2996.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122737213.7609.18.camel@cutter> <1122737443.3935.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050730201755.7fd0e21a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > I didn't realize I was making a plea. :) > Editor, thy name is hyperbole. ;-) > > I was just talking about working on a man page and some better examples > > in the readme as well as making a webpage, at all. In plain language, do you do or do you don't need one of us developer types to make-/rpm-/bit-fu? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 14:56:08 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:56:08 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Cannot get mock to work] In-Reply-To: <20050730201755.7fd0e21a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1122736603.2996.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122737213.7609.18.camel@cutter> <1122737443.3935.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050730201755.7fd0e21a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1122821768.3876.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 20:17 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > > I didn't realize I was making a plea. :) > > Editor, thy name is hyperbole. ;-) > > > I was just talking about working on a man page and some better examples > > > in the readme as well as making a webpage, at all. > > In plain language, do you do or do you don't need one of us developer > types to make-/rpm-/bit-fu? In plain language, Seth was asking for volunteers to help with *documentation*, as stated in his post. Otherwise I wouldn't have sent it to f-docs-l! :-) I figured a *developer* type would have more experience with mock and how it works, and thus be able to more quickly generate the required documentation. Can you help with this? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Jul 31 17:21:35 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:21:35 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Cannot get mock to work] In-Reply-To: <1122821768.3876.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1122736603.2996.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122737213.7609.18.camel@cutter> <1122737443.3935.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050730201755.7fd0e21a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1122821768.3876.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050731122135.71015e83.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > I figured a *developer* type would have more > experience with mock and how it works, and thus be able to more quickly > generate the required documentation. Can you help with this? Dunno, I'm buried in coding-for-dollars at the moment. Maybe Seth could squirt me a copy of 0.4 that I could look at and render a final answer. Or just letting me know how 0.4 differs from 0.3 might be enough. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 23:48:22 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:48:22 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Cannot get mock to work] In-Reply-To: <20050731122135.71015e83.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1122736603.2996.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1122737213.7609.18.camel@cutter> <1122737443.3935.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050730201755.7fd0e21a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1122821768.3876.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050731122135.71015e83.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1122853702.6169.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 12:21 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > I figured a *developer* type would have more > > experience with mock and how it works, and thus be able to more quickly > > generate the required documentation. Can you help with this? > > Dunno, I'm buried in coding-for-dollars at the moment. Maybe Seth > could squirt me a copy of 0.4 that I could look at and render a final > answer. Or just letting me know how 0.4 differs from 0.3 might be enough. Anybody who's interested in helping can simply download it from the development repo. (Ah, the beauty of open development.) I don't want to put any further words in Seth's mouth, but if he doesn't have time to write the docs himself, he probably doesn't have time to do a lot of explaining either. ;-) If you don't have time, don't worry about it. When our units at work had to respond to all-hands canvassing, we had a phrase appended to most of them that said "Positive responses only." This is kind of like that. If anyone out there definitely has time to help, please pipe up. If not, no sweat. :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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