From stickster at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 23:12:29 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 18:12:29 -0500 Subject: Fedora Installation Guide Schedule In-Reply-To: <1110047379.26640.216634499@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1110047379.26640.216634499@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1110323549.5458.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Portions of a conversation Stuart and I have been having offlist WRT the Fedora Installation Guide: On Sat, 2005-03-05 at 18:29 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > There are significant sections on RAID and LVM that (I think) are pretty > > much required, so that a new user can figure out how to set them up. > > Very much agree. I don't think that we can reasonably say that LVM is > just an advanced option any more, even if it's a pain to document. > Having mind-bending amounts of less reliable storage available for > peanuts makes these technologies pretty much mandatory... That said, I think that many hobbyists (and I'll put myself in among them) still tend to use physical partitions as "directly formatted" ext3. I'm not planning on adding and removing disks on my home workstation, and neither are many users. Nevertheless, you and I are in complete agreement that RAID/LVM must be fleshed out in the installation guide... especially since anaconda uses LVM for automatic partitioning these days. > > If I have to sacrifice those sections to get this thing out for FC4 > > test2, I will, but I will keep working on them nonetheless. > > I am currently using FC3 to do my writing, but I will have FC4 test1 > > (almost) as soon as it is issued. > > This was really what I felt we needed to work out - there's enough stuff > in the TODO to keep Mayank and I busy until you are ready, and IMHO it > helps if we all stick to the same version (whether it's the latest or > not). If you are happy to move up to test 1 then I'll do a roll-up > release and switch development after test 1 comes out, with a new target > of test 2 for a public beta release. What worried me was the risk of > things drifting or getting into a muddle later if we didn't agree > something at this stage. Mm, hadn't thought enough about the ramifications, you're right. Look, I think it would be much easier to stick with FC3 until FC4 final is issued. I know that means we might be "off target" for a week or two until we update, but it's easier than trying to "track" changes between FC3, FC4t1 and FC4t2 -- just in case anaconda has some niggling change between test releases. > > You can see what I've done at http://svn.frields.org if you are interested. > > OK, I've read through them, but won't make any nit-picky comments since > they're works in progress. Following from the above, though, it might > be worth assuming that LVM is the standard way of doing a manual > partition layout, and push that further up the text, perhaps even > deprecating directly partitioning the drives (just a thought - I don't > know if this is entirely reasonable). As a parallel, I ended up > deprecating static IP addressing for anything other than servers, > because I realised that it wasn't actually the best approach in most > scenarios any more (NetworkManager, plus cheap DHCPing routers and WAPs > all over the place). See my comments above; I still think LVM is not a requirement for an installation just because the installer uses it in the "autopilot" mode. It does that in order to support a broader base of administrators who don't know yet that they might want LVM. As a consequence the guide must address LVM. However, injecting a discussion of LVM (or RAID) into the procedural flow about how to use the anaconda installer is a bit distracting, though. These sections exist to backstop the installation process rather than to push people toward a technology. They are enabling technologies for the situations that call for them. I'm not sure which version you saw and what I'd completed by the time I'd emailed you. Right now I plan on making frequent calls to the RAID and LVM subsections using where called for, and I think that will make everyone comfortable when they read it. > Another vague suggestion is that the Appendix might be easier to tackle > by structuring it around the use cases (workstations and laptops would > be probably use Automatic partitioning, or just have a separate /home) > and maybe de-emphasising the hardware specifics. Most servers and > workstations I've seen use IDE CD drives with SCSI hard drives and > tapes, or (recently) just SATA. (S)ATA RAID is apparently now fairly > common on enthusiast mainboards too, so I guess that the boundaries are > getting very blurry. Many legacy boxes are being coverted to Linux, however... which really proves your point. That's why I would like to de-emphasize the "let's explain technology" angle, and instead focus on the procedure first and foremost, referring to specific sections on enabling technologies where appropriate. > FWIW, I've written up a documentation plan to try to summarise for > Mayank (and any future contributors) the aims and requirements I've been > working towards with the text: > > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/main/index.php?pagename=InstallationGuidePlan > > The current version is just a brain dump - comments and corrections are > very welcome. This is good info for anyone trying to contribute to the IG. One thing that occurred to me while reading: I think that relying on the built-in help screens of a program is not a commonly accepted method for doing system documentation. It definitely saves a little time, but in terms of a readable document, simply providing extra material in the absence of the basic procedural support is going to result in a document that's much harder to read. There's nothing wrong, for example, with simply reproducing what's already in anaconda in the IG, as long as the terminology is supported and the style is consistent. We have a couple documentation experts at work whom I will ask this question if I can get them off the keyboards long enough. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Mar 8 23:26:35 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:26:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Status of Fedora docs Message-ID: Hi all, I'm just learning about this corner of the Fedora world. :-) I'm wondering what you Fedora documenters have been working on, who's involved, what the frustrations are, and what plans you'd like to turn into reality. I did notice Stuart's work on the Fedora Install Guide - very cool - and no doubt there is a lot of other work that needs recognition and integration. Thanks for your efforts - how can I help with them? -- Elliot From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Tue Mar 8 23:47:02 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:47:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050308234702.58953.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Elliot Lee wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm just learning about this corner of the Fedora > world. :-) I'm wondering > what you Fedora documenters have been working on, > who's involved, what the > frustrations are, and what plans you'd like to turn > into reality. I did > notice Stuart's work on the Fedora Install Guide - > very cool - and no > doubt there is a lot of other work that needs > recognition and integration. > > Thanks for your efforts - how can I help with them? > -- Elliot > Rewriting documents in GNU FDL while there already is relevant docs in RHEL seems to be redundant work. anyway you could help avoid that? Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From kwade at redhat.com Wed Mar 9 00:16:55 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:16:55 -0800 Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1110327415.7725.61.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 18:26 -0500, Elliot Lee wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm just learning about this corner of the Fedora world. :-) I'm wondering > what you Fedora documenters have been working on, who's involved, what the > frustrations are, and what plans you'd like to turn into reality. I did > notice Stuart's work on the Fedora Install Guide - very cool - and no > doubt there is a lot of other work that needs recognition and integration. > > Thanks for your efforts - how can I help with them? Got a few hours? Hee hee. I'll try to be brief. Our biggest challenge is that we started with no documentation (practically), and it is difficult to write everything from scratch. We're working on this. One elephant-in-the-room is the release notes. Currently these are being handled by John Ha, technical lead of the docs team at RH, but these really should be a community effort. We need to do some serious thinking about how this could be done modularly by the Fedora developers with docs help. A Wiki that gets contributed to as we go, edited by this group, and dumped to plain XML for the install? Another challenge is the toolchain has problems with PDF output. This is something we are working on internally on the RH docs team, but I would love to see this handled via the community. If we identify fop as the processor of choice, we will need to get it compiled using gcj and someone will need to maintain the package for Fedora. The docs we are working on are primarily how-to/tutorial types. This is mainly because it's a PITA to maintain a full length guide by yourself, especially if you aren't being paid for your (significant) time. We have been trying to be creative with modularizing docs such as the Installation Guide, so multiple people can write and maintain it. This is still in the baby-steps stage. When we have access to the docs CVS for outside contributors, there are a few that are ready to put their stuff in CVS. We have discussed this off-list, so I'm just adding this as an item. Is that enough to chew on for now? I'm sure I'll think of more later. I'm always camped on #fedora-docs on irc.freenode.net, if anyone wants to discuss this further that way; I'll report anything useful back to the list. BTW, I think I'm done with all the craziness for a while, so am again gung-ho for solving our problems and moving forward with our plans. Thanks, Elliot, for dropping in to help. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 IT executives rate Red Hat #1 for value http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ From sopwith at redhat.com Wed Mar 9 00:18:27 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:18:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: <20050308234702.58953.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050308234702.58953.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Rewriting documents in GNU FDL while there already is relevant docs in > RHEL seems to be redundant work. anyway you could help avoid that? I tried downloading the RHEL4 install guide from http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/ and it appears to be under the Open Publication License (http://www.opencontent.org/openpub/). I don't see the RHEL docs license changing from OPL to FDL, but the OPL seems to allow you to do quite a bit with the content. Does this help at all in providing a base for the content you want? Best, -- Elliot From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 9 00:37:39 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:37:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050309003739.12214.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > I don't see the RHEL docs license changing from OPL > to FDL, but the OPL > seems to allow you to do quite a bit with the > content. Does this help at > all in providing a base for the content you want? > > Best, > -- Elliot > unfortunately not. fedora docs are to be licensed under GNU FDL. RHEL docs are licensed under OPL and these two licenses are incompatible with each other which means we will have to rewrite them for fedora from scratch . If RHEL docs cannot be relicensed under GNU FDL for any reason (I would like to know why) then it would be a better idea to allow fedora docs to be licensed under OPL Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From sopwith at redhat.com Wed Mar 9 00:45:22 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:45:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: <20050309003739.12214.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050309003739.12214.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > unfortunately not. fedora docs are to be licensed under GNU FDL. RHEL > docs are licensed under OPL and these two licenses are incompatible with > each other which means we will have to rewrite them for fedora from > scratch . If RHEL docs cannot be relicensed under GNU FDL for any reason > (I would like to know why) I don't know if it is impossible, but it would be difficult to effect, and take so much time that the issue would be irrelevant by the time the change happened. > then it would be a better idea to allow fedora docs to be licensed under > OPL It may be that Fedora docs do not need to be under the FDL. It would be interesting to know where this policy is laid out, and the reasoning behind it. -- Elliot From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 9 00:51:45 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:51:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050309005145.13504.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > It may be that Fedora docs do not need to be under > the FDL. It would be > interesting to know where this policy is laid out, > and the reasoning > behind it. > > -- Elliot Here is the policy http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/s1-tutorial-license.html I dont know the reasoning behind this thou Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 9 00:57:54 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:57:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fedora Installation Guide Schedule In-Reply-To: <1110323549.5458.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050309005754.24840.qmail@web8507.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- "Paul W. Frields" wrote: > Portions of a conversation Stuart and I have been > having offlist WRT the > Fedora Installation Guide: hey why is the conversation off list? Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Wed Mar 9 02:01:17 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 02:01:17 +0000 Subject: Fedora Installation Guide Schedule In-Reply-To: <1110323549.5458.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1110047379.26640.216634499@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1110323549.5458.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1110333677.3970.217877284@webmail.messagingengine.com> My original mail ended up being very long, so I'll try to do better and keep my comments to a readable length: - Release schedule, and what version(s) of FC to write against: My main concern is to minimise the workload for everybody, so I'm happy to fall in line with whatever arrangements other people feel are best for their writing, editing etc. Probably sounds customer-unfriendly, but the users can only be helped if we can produce and maintain a complete doc with the resources that we have. What I'd personally like is secondary, but ideally would be: - To release a credible-looking test document for feedback, and to attract more contributors (hopefully some that can test against x86-64 and PPC). Credible may mean FC4 test 1 at this point, I don't know. - To complete a 1.0 draft in time for it to be edited, so that... - An Installation Guide for FC4 appears as soon as possible after FC4 final is released. - To have a 1.0 Guide for FC3, if Karsten is willing to edit two documents. The reasons for the last are that many people are very slow to upgrade (I'm still having to try to persuade people on forums to get off RH9), and that I think that it would be useful to start figuring how to practically support multiple versions as soon as we can. - Installation Guide Plan, and Anaconda vs. Installation Guide: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/main/index.php?pagename=InstallationGuidePlan One of the (many) ideas that I've tried to compress into the "plan" is that an Anaconda graphical installation is kind of self documenting already, in that you can read the screens and understand what to do *if* you speak Linux and understand the terms that are used. Which suggests that a lot of the value of the Installation Guide is in explaining what the options mean, and describing the features that can't be seen on the graphical screens. I wouldn't like to have sections which just repeat the contents on the screen without adding anything - this isn't very well expressed. I'd be very interested in hearing how professional documenters link program screens with the documentation - I don't think that the current layout quite gets this right. - Recommending LVM and deprecating direct partitioning: > I still think LVM is not a requirement for an > installation just because the installer uses it in the "autopilot" mode. > It does that in order to support a broader base of administrators who > don't know yet that they might want LVM. As a consequence the guide must > address LVM. This was really my point in a nutshell - IMHO everybody who manually partitions a drive ought to use LVM, even if they don't realise it when they install the system. At work we now mandate the MS equivalent of LVM on all Windows servers because we discovered in testing that it was impossible to guess exactly the right partitioning setup for 100Gb+ of storage in advance, and destructive repartitioning is, well, not a valid option once a system is live... > However, injecting a discussion of LVM (or RAID) into the procedural > flow about how to use the anaconda installer is a bit distracting, > though. Yes, thinking about it these concepts are advanced however you document them (manual partitioning is probably an advanced topic, as a whole), so probably ought to be pushed out to an Appendix as much as possible. The only reason that I routinely go through the manual partitioning on workstations is get /home away from the root partition. -- Stuart Ellis From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Wed Mar 9 02:11:35 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 02:11:35 +0000 Subject: Fedora Installation Guide Schedule In-Reply-To: <20050309005754.24840.qmail@web8507.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050309005754.24840.qmail@web8507.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1110334295.4561.217883635@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:57:54 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" said: > > --- "Paul W. Frields" wrote: > > > Portions of a conversation Stuart and I have been > > having offlist WRT the > > Fedora Installation Guide: > > hey why is the conversation off list? I initially sent a "how are things going" mail and Paul's posted the rest, so that we can carry on discussion here. -- Stuart Ellis From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Wed Mar 9 02:22:18 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 02:22:18 +0000 Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: References: <20050308234702.58953.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1110334938.5228.217883959@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:18:27 -0500 (EST), "Elliot Lee" said: > > I don't see the RHEL docs license changing from OPL to FDL, but the OPL > seems to allow you to do quite a bit with the content. Does this help at > all in providing a base for the content you want? I was the person that fell over this - the docs that list the options for Anaconda are OPL, so the Installation Guide can't reuse the material (I beleive). Confusingly, the copy in the Fedora anaconda RPM is apparently accompanied by the wrong licence document, as the material there is actually copied from the OPL'd RHEL docs. I don't know of another source for this information, so I couldn't incorporate it. -- Stuart Ellis From stickster at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 13:34:09 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 08:34:09 -0500 Subject: Fedora Installation Guide Schedule In-Reply-To: <1110333677.3970.217877284@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1110047379.26640.216634499@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1110323549.5458.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110333677.3970.217877284@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1110375249.4892.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 02:01 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > However, injecting a discussion of LVM (or RAID) into the procedural > > flow about how to use the anaconda installer is a bit distracting, > > though. > > Yes, thinking about it these concepts are advanced however you document > them (manual partitioning is probably an advanced topic, as a whole), so > probably ought to be pushed out to an Appendix as much as possible. The > only reason that I routinely go through the manual partitioning on > workstations is get /home away from the root partition. If I didn't feel that replies like "+1" were injurious to the continued existence of the English language, I'd write that here. The only quibble I have with anaconda is the fact that automatic partitioning doesn't create a /home partition. All the beginners I know hate it when they realize that their naive initial setup forces them to repartition later when they know what they are doing. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Mar 9 14:19:50 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:19:50 -0600 Subject: Fedora Installation Guide Schedule In-Reply-To: <1110375249.4892.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1110047379.26640.216634499@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1110323549.5458.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110333677.3970.217877284@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1110375249.4892.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050309081950.6be1e8ee.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > All the beginners I know hate it when they > realize that their naive initial setup forces them to repartition later > when they know what they are doing. Even worse, if they must re-install with FC(n+1) within two or three months of their FCn installation. We need to liberate "/home" from the tyranny of the "/" oppression! Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Wed Mar 9 15:09:40 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:09:40 +0000 Subject: Fedora Installation Guide Schedule In-Reply-To: <20050309081950.6be1e8ee.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1110047379.26640.216634499@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1110323549.5458.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110333677.3970.217877284@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1110375249.4892.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050309081950.6be1e8ee.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1110380980.24262.217925590@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:19:50 -0600, "Tommy Reynolds" said: Even worse, if they must re-install with FC(n+1) within two or three months of their FCn installation. We need to liberate "/home" from the tyranny of the "/" oppression! As my small contribution to the cause, I've filed an RFE with a link to this discussion: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/beta/show_bug.cgi?id=150670 -- Stuart Ellis From kwade at redhat.com Wed Mar 9 20:16:16 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:16:16 -0800 Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: References: <20050309003739.12214.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1110399376.7725.120.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 19:45 -0500, Elliot Lee wrote: > On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > unfortunately not. fedora docs are to be licensed under GNU FDL. RHEL > > docs are licensed under OPL and these two licenses are incompatible with > > each other which means we will have to rewrite them for fedora from > > scratch . If RHEL docs cannot be relicensed under GNU FDL for any reason > > (I would like to know why) > > I don't know if it is impossible, but it would be difficult to effect, and > take so much time that the issue would be irrelevant by the time the > change happened. If you want the history of this, Ed Bailey wrote a good piece that answers some of this: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2003-December/msg00085.html I think there are two overall questions: 1. Why historically has Red Hat not allowed freer usage of the documentation content and source? This is answered in Ed's post. 2. What could we do with Enterprise Linux docs if we had full access to the source and content? I think the real question to ponder is 2. Our first obstacle is that full-length guides are extremely difficult to keep accurate and relevant. We have a full-time, fully-loaded documentation team working on these manuals throughout the 12 to 18 month release cycle of Enterprise Linux, and I can personally tell you that I was fixing content for the Red Hat SELinux Guide literally up to the last hour before publication. Full-length documentation is too big of a bite for us to chew at this time. However, we can make our documents modular so they will fit together into bound guides. That is something to work toward. If we had had the RHL 9 full doc set, branched and sitting in CVS for our usage in FC 1, would we have it updated for the release? That's the question to ask ourselves honestly. I'm an optimistic person, and I still think the answer would be, "No." Move to the present and ask the same question about the current Enterprise Linux docs set. The answer is even more "no" than before. All that said, there are parts of the guides that would be useful, as Stuart has pointed out. Where that happens, I'm afraid our best option is the brute-force method -- just write it ourselves. At the present, the state of FC 4 and Enterprise Linux 4 are divergent enough that even if we had all the source in CVS to work on, it would be a massive undertaking for even just one guide. AFAIC, this topic is still open for discussion until everyone is comfortable with leaving the past behind us and moving forward with a Fedora-only docs set. > > then it would be a better idea to allow fedora docs to be licensed under > > OPL > > It may be that Fedora docs do not need to be under the FDL. It would be > interesting to know where this policy is laid out, and the reasoning > behind it. Interesting question. This point predates my involvement with the project, Tammy would have more answers here. Does the Fedora Project have guidelines on this? I think it's irrelevant, however. Having matching licenses wouldn't help integration. Red Hat is unlikely to bring Fedora content into Enterprise Linux documents because of the copyright ownership issues. This goes directly back to the historical point Ed makes. There are some things Red Hat needs to maintain full ownership of in order to be able to put the Red Hat brand on it. Fundamentally, documentation is very different from source code. You can significantly change the meaning of something by tweaking just one word or punctuation mark. The semantic meaning of language is far richer than the output of programmed bits. Documentation embodies ideas that source code cannot. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ From h2jose at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 21:00:52 2005 From: h2jose at gmail.com (Jose hernandez) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:00:52 -0400 Subject: how can i install mod_python ?? Message-ID: How can i install mod_python in VPS server fedora ?? -- Jos? Hern?ndez h2jose at gmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- User Linux: #372916. ...and God Said: "Linux Created... I'm Happy" Omnia sunt communia ! From stickster at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 23:00:45 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:00:45 -0500 Subject: how can i install mod_python ?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1110409245.5272.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 17:00 -0400, Jose hernandez wrote: > How can i install mod_python in VPS server fedora ?? Hi Jose, You should join the fedora-list and ask this question there, since that list is for technical issues. This is the fedora-docs-list, which is for people who are writing and editing Fedora documentation. Good luck and have fun. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 9 23:28:34 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:28:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: <1110399376.7725.120.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050309232834.89464.qmail@web8503.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > AFAIC, this topic is still open for discussion until > everyone is > comfortable with leaving the past behind us and > moving forward with a > Fedora-only docs set. > just trying to see if we can resolve the licensing conflicts in a meaningful manner > I think it's irrelevant, however. Having matching > licenses wouldn't > help integration. I think it will by the opening up *potential* ways to incorporate content from RHEL docs to fedora Red Hat is unlikely to bring > Fedora content into > Enterprise Linux documents because of the copyright > ownership issues. yes I understand that but I am checking to see if it would work the other way around if fedora docs project can accept OPL licensed documents Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From stickster at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 01:58:34 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:58:34 -0500 Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: <20050309232834.89464.qmail@web8503.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050309232834.89464.qmail@web8503.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1110419914.6130.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > I think it's irrelevant, however. Having matching > > licenses wouldn't > > help integration. > > I think it will by the opening up *potential* ways to > incorporate content from RHEL docs to fedora Read the copyright page on the RHEL manuals: "Distribution of substantively modified versions of this document is prohibited without the explicit permission of the copyright holder." Meaning that Fedora docs, which would count as the aforementioned "substantively modified versions," would be subject to this clause. Every single version... which is completely compatible with the OPL (q.v. Section VI), and again, which is due to completely understandable business reasons. Putting FDP work under the OPL does not mitigate this problem in the least. > Red Hat is unlikely to bring > > Fedora content into > > Enterprise Linux documents because of the copyright > > ownership issues. > > yes I understand that but I am checking to see if it > would work the other way around if fedora docs project > can accept OPL licensed documents If we switched to the OPL -- which, by the way, would mean that every existing document which is already FDL'd would have to be rewritten -- we would still be required to adhere to any additional restrictions placed by copyright holders on their OPL documents. Hence, the same problem could occur multiple times for a single document. I'm not a FDL flag-waver, but the FDL for all its shortcomings does at least mean we have a clear path to follow. Karsten believes he beat this dead horse, but I made a tasty soup. Mmm, good! (Uh-oh, better watch out for the Slogan Police(tm).) :-D -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Thu Mar 10 01:11:10 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:11:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050310011110.34702.qmail@web8508.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > Read the copyright page on the RHEL manuals: > > "Distribution of substantively modified versions of > this document is > prohibited without the explicit permission of the > copyright holder." yes. I read through the archives and see that this is a dead end. Apologies for bringing this up yet again Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From kwade at redhat.com Fri Mar 11 08:09:42 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:09:42 -0800 Subject: Fedora Installation Guide Schedule In-Reply-To: <1110333677.3970.217877284@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1110047379.26640.216634499@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1110323549.5458.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110333677.3970.217877284@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1110528583.5473.22.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 02:01 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > My original mail ended up being very long, so I'll try to do better and > keep my comments to a readable length: > > - Release schedule, and what version(s) of FC to write against: > > My main concern is to minimise the workload for everybody, so I'm happy > to fall in line with whatever arrangements other people feel are best > for their writing, editing etc. Probably sounds customer-unfriendly, > but the users can only be helped if we can produce and maintain a > complete doc with the resources that we have. > > What I'd personally like is secondary, but ideally would be: > > - To release a credible-looking test document for feedback, and to > attract more contributors (hopefully some that can test against x86-64 > and PPC). Credible may mean FC4 test 1 at this point, I don't know. > - To complete a 1.0 draft in time for it to be edited, so that... > - An Installation Guide for FC4 appears as soon as possible after FC4 > final is released. > - To have a 1.0 Guide for FC3, if Karsten is willing to edit two > documents. It sounds like you should branch as soon as possible. I don't mind editing two, I really only have to edit the first and read a diff. Okay, well, that might not be so easy ... may be an excuse to get xmldiff working. I'm in favor of you putting up a test version as soon as you are comfortable. Where is the canonical SVN/CVS? Can we branch on your server and keep the history when adding it into Fedora CVS? My instinct says, no. How can we do this cleanly? One idea is to make Fedora CVS canonical, check-in the latest code and branch it, then you can put the two branches in your SVN. When you have rw to the module, you can move the code back in, and Tammy or I can do manual merging of content. Eww. That sounded so ugly. Maybe Tammy or Elliot have a better suggestion. > The reasons for the last are that many people are very slow to upgrade > (I'm still having to try to persuade people on forums to get off RH9), > and that I think that it would be useful to start figuring how to > practically support multiple versions as soon as we can. Agreed. That is a challenge. People still use RHL 9 docs all the time, especially for Fedora Core. > - Installation Guide Plan, and Anaconda vs. Installation Guide: > > http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~hobb/main/index.php?pagename=InstallationGuidePlan This is good. It highlights the differences between the target Fedora user and the target Enterprise Linux user. Stuart pointed out that we can't assume a Fedora Core user knows anything about Linux or UNIX concepts, or even reads complex English. > One of the (many) ideas that I've tried to compress into the "plan" is > that an Anaconda graphical installation is kind of self documenting > already, in that you can read the screens and understand what to do *if* > you speak Linux and understand the terms that are used. Which suggests > that a lot of the value of the Installation Guide is in explaining what > the options mean, and describing the features that can't be seen on the > graphical screens. I wouldn't like to have sections which just repeat > the contents on the screen without adding anything - this isn't very > well expressed. That is wise thinking. > I'd be very interested in hearing how professional documenters link > program screens with the documentation - I don't think that the current > layout quite gets this right. I'm not sure what you are asking here. Do you mean hyperlinking screens to docs, or conceptual linking? > - Recommending LVM and deprecating direct partitioning: > > > I still think LVM is not a requirement for an > > installation just because the installer uses it in the "autopilot" mode. > > It does that in order to support a broader base of administrators who > > don't know yet that they might want LVM. As a consequence the guide must > > address LVM. > > This was really my point in a nutshell - IMHO everybody who manually > partitions a drive ought to use LVM, even if they don't realise it when > they install the system. At work we now mandate the MS equivalent of > LVM on all Windows servers because we discovered in testing that it was > impossible to guess exactly the right partitioning setup for 100Gb+ of > storage in advance, and destructive repartitioning is, well, not a valid > option once a system is live... > > > However, injecting a discussion of LVM (or RAID) into the procedural > > flow about how to use the anaconda installer is a bit distracting, > > though. > > Yes, thinking about it these concepts are advanced however you document > them (manual partitioning is probably an advanced topic, as a whole), so > probably ought to be pushed out to an Appendix as much as possible. The > only reason that I routinely go through the manual partitioning on > workstations is get /home away from the root partition. I tend to think of the default FC install as representing a base set of best practices. LVM, in this case, has received lots of field testing, and resolves many of the nagging problems of an install that happens to a Linux user: how to partition, should you partition differently, what is this partition stuff anyway and where is my c:\ drive? Therefore, linking to an appendix that explains LVM and partitioning (overview) is great, and we definitely want to support the default choice here with our docs. IMO. I'm also in favor of /home being a separate partition by default. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Fri Mar 11 15:26:18 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:26:18 +0000 Subject: Fedora Installation Guide Schedule In-Reply-To: <1110528583.5473.22.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1110047379.26640.216634499@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1110323549.5458.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1110333677.3970.217877284@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1110528583.5473.22.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1110554778.18954.218105134@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:09:42 -0800, "Karsten Wade" said: > On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 02:01 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > It sounds like you should branch as soon as possible. The key problem, really, is that I don't know how long it will realistically take to do some of the tasks, particularly as everybody is working in their spare time. For example, I don't actually know how long an edit takes for a document of this size. Which is is why I feel that I have to pass the buck and ask what other people feel is reasonable. > Where is the canonical SVN/CVS? The canonical version is the latest release on the Website, uploaded from my workstation. Paul and Mayank are working on specific sections so merging isn't an issue at this stage. The need to eventually move into Fedora revision control is partly why I see multiple versions as an issue - as you say, at some stage we have to import into CVS, so I wasn't sure whether we ought to be importing IG3 and then branching for 4, or waiting until 4 and not branching until 5. I don't use an RCS in my work, so I don't know how this should be administered or what the pitfalls will be when we do it. > > I'd be very interested in hearing how professional documenters link > > program screens with the documentation - I don't think that the current > > layout quite gets this right. > > I'm not sure what you are asking here. Do you mean hyperlinking screens > to docs, or conceptual linking? Conceptual linking. I know a tiny bit about page design, but nothing about best practice where the user may be reading the document and information from the screen simultaneously. Paul offered to ask the documenters at his work. > Therefore, linking to an appendix that explains LVM and partitioning > (overview) is great, and we definitely want to support the default > choice here with our docs. IMO. > > I'm also in favor of /home being a separate partition by default. In all the scenarios I could think of where you wouldn't want to do it, you would be probably be using Kickstart or doing custom partitioning anyway, but obviously not everybody agrees, *shrug*. -- Stuart Ellis From kwade at redhat.com Fri Mar 11 20:18:13 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:18:13 -0800 Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: <1110327415.7725.61.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1110327415.7725.61.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1110572293.5473.50.camel@erato.phig.org> Note: If I am jumping the gun and there is something else going on, now is the time to speak. :) On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 16:16 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > One elephant-in-the-room is the release notes. Currently these are > being handled by John Ha, technical lead of the docs team at RH, but > these really should be a community effort. We need to do some serious > thinking about how this could be done modularly by the Fedora developers > with docs help. A Wiki that gets contributed to as we go, edited by > this group, and dumped to plain XML for the install? Oops, I misspoke here. John is not doing Fedora release notes. FC relnotes are entirely a community affair at this point. Time to figure out a different method. Is there anyone interested in working on the relnotes? You get extra exposure to developers, if you don't have enough already :), learn lots of interesting and esoteric stuff, and often more know about a given test, rc, or release than you thought possible. I'm looking into the Wiki at fedoraprojects.org, as it's the canonical for Fedora. My first proposal, therefore, is that we use the Wiki to create a release notes page for every test, rc, and release, and browbeat developers into contributing. For the upcoming FC4test relnotes, we don't have time for a new method. This is a good time for anyone interested to step up. For FC4t2, I volunteer to be accountable for getting the process, people, and relnotes together. I think we missed the boat on test1, but we can get a Wiki page started ASAP. I'll do that immediately, and start questioning folks on #fedora-devel about using that. Ideally we can get a bunch of developers to cobble together some notes that will get us through test1 without corrupting anyone's data. :( - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Fri Mar 11 20:30:28 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:30:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050311203028.90422.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > Oops, I misspoke here. John is not doing Fedora > release notes. FC > relnotes are entirely a community affair at this > point. > I am not sure how you call release notes written by internal developers themselves a community affair > Is there anyone interested in working on the > relnotes? You get extra > exposure to developers, if you don't have enough > already :), learn lots > of interesting and esoteric stuff, and often more > know about a given > test, rc, or release than you thought possible. I am. I would prefer to work on it as a team. So It would be nice to have a few more interested volunteers to work with me on this My first proposal, therefore, is that > we use the Wiki to > create a release notes page for every test, rc, and > release, and > browbeat developers into contributing. Oh. I am pretty good at nagging people on technical stuff :-) Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sat Mar 12 10:43:35 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:43:35 +0000 Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: <20050311203028.90422.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050311203028.90422.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1110624215.29841.218160887@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:30:28 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" said: > > Is there anyone interested in working on the > > relnotes? You get extra > > exposure to developers, if you don't have enough > > already :), learn lots > > of interesting and esoteric stuff, and often more > > know about a given > > test, rc, or release than you thought possible. > > I am. I would prefer to work on it as a team. So It > would be nice to have a few more interested volunteers > to work with me on this I've already got a login for the Wiki, so I can pitch in. The first question is how you'd would like to arrange the page structure - should we have separate pages for the sections off the Core4Test1 page ? -- Stuart Ellis From kwade at redhat.com Sat Mar 12 16:09:42 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:09:42 -0800 Subject: Wiki and first usage - relnotes for FC4test? Message-ID: <1110643783.6405.12.camel@erato.phig.org> We have discussed in the past using a Wiki for Fedora docs needs, and suddenly finding a desperate need for one, I filled out some pages and started a Wiki page for release notes for FC4test1. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fRelNotes_2fCore4Test1RelNotes There is now a page about this project and a canonical page of Wiki docs: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocsProject http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs In anticipation, I have made up my own Q&A: Why? It hasn't been otherwise done and it needs to get done, but there isn't time to gather notes in bugzilla and make a pretty DocBook page. What release notes are shipping in FC4test1? AIUI, not much. Probably just a copy of the FC3 relnotes. Essentially, anything we can gather on a Wiki page will be useful for the short-term. Should we continue to do the relnotes in a Wiki? I don't know. We'll have to watch this experiment and see how it works out. What do we need to get this relnotes ready now? Developers to contribute whatever they can think of that needs to be in a release notes. A group of us to watch those contributions, edit them, and add in whatever else we can. This also lets us test the idea of gathering information from developers via Wiki, and seeing if we can convert it to DocBook without too much pain. The older method of using bugzilla submissions was hard enough when all the developers were paid to do documentation. Community developers need to be able to work in a way that is comfortable to them, or we won't get many docs out of them. Just MHO, but ... How does a editor/writer get involved? Create an account at fedoraprojects.org and contact a person in the editing group (e.g., me) to get you added for editing permissions. I decided to *not* do a separate docs editors, figuring having writers/editors with full permissions to edit the Wiki is a Good Thing. When you setup your preferences page, you need to mark the relnotes page as a watched (subscribed) page, aiui. Tell me what you think. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ From kwade at redhat.com Sat Mar 12 16:27:08 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:27:08 -0800 Subject: Status of Fedora docs In-Reply-To: <20050311203028.90422.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050311203028.90422.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1110644828.6405.28.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-03-11 at 12:30 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > Oops, I misspoke here. John is not doing Fedora > > release notes. FC > > relnotes are entirely a community affair at this > > point. > > > > I am not sure how you call release notes written by > internal developers themselves a community affair Actually, I think the FDP should be accountable for the release notes, and developers responsible for populating them with facts. This is just my idea. Regardless, the first community I am referring to is this one, the docs project, and then the developers. With a Wiki, anyone can contribute. If someone who is not a Red Hat developer has a fact for the Wiki, that person should edit and include. Rest of your comment doesn't have anything to do with me. I'm currently stymied by the internal/external barriers, albeit in different ways than someone without CVS access. ;-D > > Is there anyone interested in working on the > > relnotes? You get extra > > exposure to developers, if you don't have enough > > already :), learn lots > > of interesting and esoteric stuff, and often more > > know about a given > > test, rc, or release than you thought possible. > > I am. I would prefer to work on it as a team. So It > would be nice to have a few more interested volunteers > to work with me on this So far we have you, Stuart, and myself. A few more would be a good idea. We can all watch the page and coordinate via IRC, or just fix it and hope we don't step on each other's toes. Keeping voice/style consistent is going to be a challenge, which I will lay on my feet for starting this. Perhaps we'll get more points for our style guide out of this. IIRC, we are using the GNOME style guide as a basis to work from. For language style, Elements of Style is our basis. > My first proposal, therefore, is that > > we use the Wiki to > > create a release notes page for every test, rc, and > > release, and > > browbeat developers into contributing. > > Oh. I am pretty good at nagging people on technical > stuff :-) I've asked Elliot Lee to make the initial request on fedora-maintainers and wherever else he feels its needed. So, we have a day or so to fix the scheme I put together, which uses one massive page. FWIW, I'd prefer to tweak the scheme for the test2 notes, such as considering Stuart's suggestion of separate pages. This might be difficult because of the way the Wiki namespace is constructed. Let's discuss. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ From kwade at redhat.com Sat Mar 12 16:29:56 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:29:56 -0800 Subject: Wiki and first usage - relnotes for FC4test? In-Reply-To: <1110643783.6405.12.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1110643783.6405.12.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1110644997.6405.32.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 08:09 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > We have discussed in the past using a Wiki for Fedora docs needs, and > suddenly finding a desperate need for one, I filled out some pages and > started a Wiki page for release notes for FC4test1. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fRelNotes_2fCore4Test1RelNotes Note: The Wiki has a flat file structure under /wiki/, so it simulates slashes by making them part of the Wiki-name. For URLs, these slashes are converted to "_2f", so the above path on your Wiki screen is: FedoraDocs/RelNotes/Core4Test1RelNotes The "RelNotes" is appended in the second page because putting it directly after a / tells the Wiki that you mean "RelNotes" and not "RelNotesFoo". I'm still understanding this a bit, so feel free to enlighten me further. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Sat Mar 12 16:36:27 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:36:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wiki and first usage - relnotes for FC4test? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050312163627.32843.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Karsten Wade wrote: > On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 08:09 -0800, Karsten Wade > wrote: > > We have discussed in the past using a Wiki for > Fedora docs needs, and > > suddenly finding a desperate need for one, I > filled out some pages and > > started a Wiki page for release notes for > FC4test1. > > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fRelNotes_2fCore4Test1RelNotes > > Note: The Wiki has a flat file structure under > /wiki/, so it simulates > slashes by making them part of the Wiki-name. For > URLs, these slashes > are converted to "_2f", so the above path on your > Wiki screen is: > > FedoraDocs/RelNotes/Core4Test1RelNotes > the information in the release notes includes which srpm packages where removed and which rpm packages were added to the system. I guess this information is available from redhat's build system. It would nice to have a script or any automated way to find out what has changed between say fc3 and fc4 test1 and so on. Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From kwade at redhat.com Mon Mar 14 20:27:24 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:27:24 -0800 Subject: Wiki and first usage - relnotes for FC4test? In-Reply-To: <20050312163627.32843.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050312163627.32843.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1110832044.979.2.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 08:36 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > the information in the release notes includes which > srpm packages where removed and which rpm packages > were added to the system. I guess this information is > available from redhat's build system. It would nice to > have a script or any automated way to find out what > has changed between say fc3 and fc4 test1 and so on. Elliot: Is it possible/easy to get a list of which packages were added, removed, and deprecated between FC3 and FC4? Is there a tool we can use to go fishing ourselves? thx - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ From kwade at redhat.com Mon Mar 14 22:52:00 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:52:00 -0800 Subject: package diff between FC4 and FC3 Message-ID: <1110840720.979.9.camel@erato.phig.org> If anyone has time to replace the cruft at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fRelNotes_2fCore4Test1RelNotes with this: http://people.redhat.com/kwade/fedora-docs/relnotes-wip/added.out http://people.redhat.com/kwade/fedora-docs/relnotes-wip/removed.out http://people.redhat.com/kwade/fedora-docs/relnotes-wip/changed.out that would be great. :) I ran a script against dist-fc3 and dist-fc4 to generate a big list of added, removed, and changed, then parsed them into separate files and cleaned them up a bit for easier insertion in the Wiki. For ease, we can probably just include the package changes with version numbers and change arrow -> in a bulleted list. We haven't historically (afaict) done a changed list. Deprecated is subjective. We'll have to get developer input or seek another method to find out what is deprecated. This is probably a good 90% of the truth, possible 100% of the truth, in terms of the difference between the two base installs. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Mar 15 10:53:55 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:53:55 +0000 Subject: package diff between FC4 and FC3 In-Reply-To: <1110840720.979.9.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1110840720.979.9.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1110884035.18664.218354731@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:52:00 -0800, "Karsten Wade" said: > If anyone has time to replace the cruft at: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fRelNotes_2fCore4Test1RelNotes > > with this: Just so that you know - I'm at work so won't be able to do anything for most of today. I'll probably be on IRC/mail from about 7.30pm (GMT) today. So far I've gone through the text and tidied up indents and line breaks. One issue that has popped up: The import lost the admonition (Note and Warning sections) formatting so that these became regular paragraphs. -- Stuart Ellis From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Mar 15 19:28:19 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:28:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Some ideas Message-ID: Hey, thanks for the status info from everyone! From my perspective, there are two main pieces of content that I'd like to suggest about focusing on: Release notes You are already on top of this for test2 by the sound of it. :-) The wiki seems like it will work for now until we can get CVS for y'all. We do need to figure out a good way to get change notices from the developers. The previous relnotes maintainer said one of his big frustrations was getting developers to respond to a request for notes. Release announcements The part where you get to have fun, be creative, and not work too hard. The Fedora marketing people may have input here, and some coordination with developers and mirror admins would be necessary. The way I imagine this working is that you could maintain a template 'announcement'. About a week before each release, you could start with the template fill in a few highlights from the relnotes, start creating the list of mirrors, and think up ideas for the "theme" of the announcement. The day before the release, you'd fill in the final list of mirrors, and then post the announcement on the day of the release. These are two ongoing things that happen over and over at every release point, and they really tie together as far as deadlines and content go. This is not meant to take away from the install guide work at all - it can still be worked on, and there's definitely a need for it. However, the install guide is a lot of work, and I'd rather see you guys do well at a few basic things than burn out not finishing a very big project. Once the Fedora docs project has grown to have more infrastructure and more contributors, you can add a focus on bigger projects like the install guide. One thing I did for the index.html page in FC4test1 was put in a link to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocsProject - hopefully that will help you get more contributors. These are just suggestions - you guys are the ones who are putting all the hard work in, and that means you get the final say (e.g. if the install guide is the only thing interesting to Stuart, it stands to reason that he's going to keep working on it :-) It's really cool to see people active in the docs project, and once docs CVS happens, hopefully you'll have other ideas about infrastructure you need to make FDP successful. Does this all make sense? Comments/questions welcome! -- Elliot From kwade at redhat.com Tue Mar 15 23:42:44 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:42:44 -0800 Subject: package diff between FC4 and FC3 In-Reply-To: <1110884035.18664.218354731@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1110840720.979.9.camel@erato.phig.org> <1110884035.18664.218354731@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1110930165.24653.14.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-03-15 at 10:53 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:52:00 -0800, "Karsten Wade" > said: > > If anyone has time to replace the cruft at: > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fRelNotes_2fCore4Test1RelNotes > > > > with this: > > Just so that you know - > > I'm at work so won't be able to do anything for most of today. I'll > probably be on IRC/mail from about 7.30pm (GMT) today. > > So far I've gone through the text and tidied up indents and line breaks. > > One issue that has popped up: The import lost the admonition (Note and > Warning sections) formatting so that these became regular paragraphs. I did lots of tweaks to the release notes today, and if I am convinced of anything it is that a Wiki is not a nice place to edit a very long document. I've been convinced today by others that our best bet is to find a way to insert just a little extra process into developers existing workflow. I don't want to give up the hard work that Ed did to get developers to give relnotes the love they need. But I don't think asking anyone to edit the Wiki is a good idea. For test1, we can use the Wiki to supplement the release notes, just to cover the gap of a missing release notes. We can continue discussing the best approach for test2. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Mar 16 14:36:15 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:36:15 +1100 Subject: Wiki and first usage - relnotes for FC4test? In-Reply-To: <1110832044.979.2.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20050312163627.32843.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1110832044.979.2.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1110983775.17429.65.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 12:27 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > Is it possible/easy to get a list of which packages were added, > removed, > and deprecated between FC3 and FC4? Is there a tool we can use to go > fishing ourselves? Yes, its called treediff (fc3 against fc4) -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From kwade at redhat.com Wed Mar 16 15:24:32 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:24:32 -0800 Subject: [RFC] relnotes process Message-ID: <1110986672.24653.77.camel@erato.phig.org> Here are the organization of some ideas generated during an impromptu discussion on #fedora-docs. The ideas here make doing the release notes fun, manageable, and a good opportunity for writers and editors who want a closer interaction with developers and the Fedora release process. # Suppositions The Fedora Core release notes (relnotes) are a massive undertaking for a single individual to do manually. Even as a group effort, the collection and sorting for useful bits of information (content) to document is a large undertaking. For the release notes and all documentation to be meaningful and useful, the developers need to embrace them as part of their process. Process additions for developers need to minimally interrupt an already working and complex workflow. Places in the workflow we can capture useful content to document include: 1. CVS check-in comments 2. bugzilla for all packages 3. easy-to-send-to email address # The Pieces There are two major parts: the in-flow of content from developers and the community, and the churning of that content into a release notes. We'll call them the gathering and writing parts. ## Gathering the content For CVS check-in, we could use unique keywords in the comments such as DOXEN or RELNOTES, and a longer description explaining the change. Similar for changes to packages overall. Then we have to work with release engineering (rel-eng) to automate the extraction of that content. Doc teams can then work on the content throughout the development process. For example, a weekly script extracts the useful pieces and generates populated bugzilla reports for each special KEYWORD by team type. This requires some extra thought on the part of developers, and we'll provide them a nicely documented process. Bugzilla could take advantage of existing or new closing types or flags that mark a bug as worthy of a DOCUMENT note. An email alias can start as an alias to a group doing the relnotes. It can later be channeled into a script to do interesting things, such as creating bugzilla entries. We need a process doc that tells developers how to identify something that is worth documenting. This is a whole topic in itself. This might be driven by the scope of a specific document, or by general guidelines of the various audiences we write for. ## Writing the content The general idea here is to model the success that software projects have. Modularize the release notes, making individuals or small groups responsible for a piece of the relnotes. Work goes on in parallel, and at certain milestones (test, release candidate, release), the modules form like Voltron ... that is, connect together and receive a group edit/check. These relnote module groups can interact more closely with the developers related to their content. A group of developers knows who is going to be asking and answering the documentation needs for a subject area. The doc writers and editors can become subject matter experts for their area. For example, I could be accountable for gathering and writing the SELinux release notes section, and I use the same set of relationships to write the Fedora SELinux FAQ, and ultimately the Red Hat SELinux Guide. Everyone knows who to bring SELinux documentation questions to. I know which kernel, userspace, policy, and desktop people to go to for information throughout the release cycle, which mailing lists to read and so forth. Here are some ideas for modules/areas of expertise. These would map directly to different parts of the relnotes. We work on separate
s as separate files and merge them with one parent XML file. * kernel * installer * hardware/drivers * packages (added, moved to extra, deprecated, AKA "package watch") * server groups * Apache * Samba * ... * Misc daemons * security groups * SELinux * ExecShield/PIE * ... * networking Each module can attract an individual or team, depending on the complexity. For writers/editors, this gives a chance to work more closely with developers of material you are interested in. You can more easily spin off Fedora docs or your own, outside written works from this relationship. Personally, if I wanted to write a book about managing Samba for Fedora Core, it would be advantageous if I were the release notes maintainer for Samba in Fedora, eh? ;-) ## Random thoughts Can we rethink the release notes? Can these be more useful and accessible for the general user? Or must one have some idea of Linux, hardware, etc. in order to need the relnotes? ## 30 ## -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Mar 16 15:28:17 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:28:17 -0800 Subject: Wiki and first usage - relnotes for FC4test? In-Reply-To: <1110983775.17429.65.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <20050312163627.32843.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> <1110832044.979.2.camel@erato.phig.org> <1110983775.17429.65.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1110986897.24653.80.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 01:36 +1100, Colin Charles wrote: > On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 12:27 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Is it possible/easy to get a list of which packages were added, > > removed, > > and deprecated between FC3 and FC4? Is there a tool we can use to go > > fishing ourselves? > > Yes, its called treediff (fc3 against fc4) Heh, thanks. Elliot had given the magic formula to me, but I forgot to reply back to the list with the information. :) I used treediff on Monday 14 March to generate the added, changed, and moved out of core lists that are in the test1 relnotes in the Wiki: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraDocs_2fRelNotes_2fCore4Test1RelNotes - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Learn, Network and Experience Open Source. Red Hat Summit, New Orleans 2005 http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Wed Mar 16 15:51:12 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:51:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RFC] relnotes process In-Reply-To: <1110986672.24653.77.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1110986672.24653.77.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: Great start. Comments inline. On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > Here are the organization of some ideas generated during an impromptu > discussion on #fedora-docs. > > The ideas here make doing the release notes fun, manageable, and a good > opportunity for writers and editors who want a closer interaction with > developers and the Fedora release process. > > # Suppositions > > The Fedora Core release notes (relnotes) are a massive undertaking for a > single individual to do manually. Even as a group effort, the > collection and sorting for useful bits of information (content) to > document is a large undertaking. > > For the release notes and all documentation to be meaningful and useful, > the developers need to embrace them as part of their process. > > Process additions for developers need to minimally interrupt an already > working and complex workflow. > > Places in the workflow we can capture useful content to document > include: > > 1. CVS check-in comments > 2. bugzilla for all packages > 3. easy-to-send-to email address Critically important here is the Motherly Nag Process. If there's one good legacy I left in RHN, it was the notion of nagging via clever email. :) To do this, we need: * the audience. I suggest fedora-maintainers for Extras maintainers, and what, eng-list for Core? * the content. I'll send a separate sample email to the list. :) > # The Pieces > > There are two major parts: the in-flow of content from developers and > the community, and the churning of that content into a release notes. > We'll call them the gathering and writing parts. > > ## Gathering the content > > For CVS check-in, we could use unique keywords in the comments such as > DOXEN or RELNOTES, and a longer description explaining the change. > Similar for changes to packages overall. Then we have to work with > release engineering (rel-eng) to automate the extraction of that > content. > > Doc teams can then work on the content throughout the development > process. For example, a weekly script extracts the useful pieces and > generates populated bugzilla reports for each special KEYWORD by team > type. > > This requires some extra thought on the part of developers, and we'll > provide them a nicely documented process. > > Bugzilla could take advantage of existing or new closing types or flags > that mark a bug as worthy of a DOCUMENT note. > > An email alias can start as an alias to a group doing the relnotes. It > can later be channeled into a script to do interesting things, such as > creating bugzilla entries. > > We need a process doc that tells developers how to identify something > that is worth documenting. This is a whole topic in itself. This might > be driven by the scope of a specific document, or by general guidelines > of the various audiences we write for. Perhaps the best help here is a set of useful examples -- but you're right; this is, as we say in NC, "a whole nother thang." > ## Writing the content > > The general idea here is to model the success that software projects > have. Modularize the release notes, making individuals or small groups > responsible for a piece of the relnotes. Work goes on in parallel, and > at certain milestones (test, release candidate, release), the modules > form like Voltron ... that is, connect together and receive a group > edit/check. > > These relnote module groups can interact more closely with the > developers related to their content. A group of developers knows who is > going to be asking and answering the documentation needs for a subject > area. The doc writers and editors can become subject matter experts for > their area. > > For example, I could be accountable for gathering and writing the > SELinux release notes section, and I use the same set of relationships > to write the Fedora SELinux FAQ, and ultimately the Red Hat SELinux > Guide. Everyone knows who to bring SELinux documentation questions to. > I know which kernel, userspace, policy, and desktop people to go to for > information throughout the release cycle, which mailing lists to read > and so forth. Spot on. Responsibility, accountability, empowerment, engagement. > Here are some ideas for modules/areas of expertise. These would map > directly to different parts of the relnotes. We work on separate >
s as separate files and merge them with one parent XML file. > > * kernel > * installer > * hardware/drivers > * packages (added, moved to extra, deprecated, AKA "package watch") > * server groups > * Apache > * Samba > * ... > * Misc daemons > * security groups > * SELinux > * ExecShield/PIE > * ... > * networking > > Each module can attract an individual or team, depending on the > complexity. > > For writers/editors, this gives a chance to work more closely with > developers of material you are interested in. You can more easily spin > off Fedora docs or your own, outside written works from this > relationship. > > Personally, if I wanted to write a book about managing Samba for Fedora > Core, it would be advantageous if I were the release notes maintainer > for Samba in Fedora, eh? ;-) > > ## Random thoughts > > Can we rethink the release notes? Can these be more useful and > accessible for the general user? Or must one have some idea of Linux, > hardware, etc. in order to need the relnotes? Well done, Karsten. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From gdk at redhat.com Wed Mar 16 15:52:01 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:52:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sample: Release notes nagmail Message-ID: This is your [ daily|weekly|fortnightly|monthly ] reminder, from your friendly docs team, to remember the poor souls who toil in darkness to write relevant release notes for all of our projects. How can you help? It's simple! 1. If you're closing a bug, set the customer-facing flag. Read more about how this work HERE [ wiki link tbd ]. 2. If you're checking something into CVS that seems noteworthy, include RELNOTE in the body of the checkin message. For example: "RELNOTE: redhat-config-toast now accepts the --margarine switch." Read more about how this works HERE [ wiki link tbd ]. 3. If you'd rather just send a note about what you're doing and how things are changing, just send a note HERE [ email address tbd ], and we'll figure it all out. === And then maybe a funny story about how an engineer's failure to update release notes resulted in an FC4-controlled trolley car running into a bus full of nuns, and the resultant tragedy. Or some such. Keep 'em guessing. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sopwith at redhat.com Wed Mar 16 17:28:00 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:28:00 -0500 Subject: Fedora Project Mailing Lists reminder Message-ID: This is a reminder of the mailing lists for the Fedora Project, and the purpose of each list. You can view this information at http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/ When you're using these mailing lists, please take the time to choose the one that is most appropriate to your post. If you don't know the right mailing list to use for a question or discussion, please contact me. This will help you get the best possible answer for your question, and keep other list subscribers happy! Mailing Lists Mailing lists are email addresses which send email to all users subscribed to the mailing list. Sending an email to a mailing list reaches all users interested in discussing a specific topic and users available to help other users with the topic. The following mailing lists are available. To subscribe, send email to -request at redhat.com (replace with the desired mailing list name such as fedora-list) with the word subscribe in the subject. fedora-announce-list - Announcements of changes and events. To stay aware of news, subscribe to this list. fedora-list - For users of releases. If you want help with a problem installing or using , this is the list for you. fedora-test-list - For testers of test releases. If you would like to discuss experiences using TEST releases, this is the list for you. fedora-devel-list - For developers, developers, developers. If you are interested in helping create releases, this is the list for you. fedora-extras-list - For users and developers of Fedora Extras fedora-docs-list - For participants of the docs project fedora-desktop-list - For discussions about desktop issues such as user interfaces, artwork, and usability fedora-config-list - For discussions about the development of configuration tools fedora-tools-list - For discussions about the toolchain (gcc, gdb, etc...) within Fedora fedora-devel-java-list - For discussions about Java-related Fedora development fedora-patches-list - For submitting patches to Fedora maintainers, and used in line with BugWeek fedora-legacy-announce - For announcements about the Fedora Legacy Project fedora-legacy-list - For discussions about the Fedora Legacy Project fedora-selinux-list - For discussions about the Fedora SELinux Project fedora-marketing-list - For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base fedora-de-list - For discussions about Fedora in the German language fedora-es-list - For discussions about Fedora in the Spanish language fedora-ja-list - For discussions about Fedora in the Japanese language fedora-i18n-list - For discussions about the internationalization of Fedora Core fedora-trans-list - For discussions about translating the software and documentation associated with the Fedora Project German: fedora-trans-de French: fedora-trans-fr Spanish: fedora-trans-es Italian: fedora-trans-it Brazilian Portuguese: fedora-trans-pt_br Japanese: fedora-trans-ja Korean: fedora-trans-ko Simplified Chinese: fedora-trans-zh_cn Traditional Chinese: fedora-trans-zh_tw From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Mar 17 10:55:30 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:55:30 +1100 Subject: [RFC] relnotes process In-Reply-To: References: <1110986672.24653.77.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1111056930.17429.196.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-03-16 at 10:51 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > * the audience. I suggest fedora-maintainers for Extras > maintainers, > and what, eng-list for Core? Shouldn't people on eng-list already be on fedora-maintainers? fedora-maintainers is not only for Extras folk, its also for Core folk -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From gdk at redhat.com Thu Mar 17 11:36:46 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:36:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RFC] relnotes process In-Reply-To: <1111056930.17429.196.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1110986672.24653.77.camel@erato.phig.org> <1111056930.17429.196.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: > Shouldn't people on eng-list already be on fedora-maintainers? > > fedora-maintainers is not only for Extras folk, its also for Core folk That's as may be, but mu guess is that the force of the message is greater if it hits an internal mailing list as well. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From tuxxer at cox.net Mon Mar 28 05:59:11 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:59:11 -0800 Subject: FC3 Install Type Packages list Message-ID: <1111989551.14505.3.camel@bach> Hi all, I'm putting the finishing touches on the Security Overview before posting the XML to the bug for editing. I'd like to add an Appendix that has the default package listing of each type of install. Does anyone have a listing like this? Or know where I can find one? If so, this'll save me the trouble of reloading my box several times. ;-) Thanks, Charlie -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 13:11:11 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:11:11 -0500 Subject: FC3 Install Type Packages list In-Reply-To: <1111989551.14505.3.camel@bach> References: <1111989551.14505.3.camel@bach> Message-ID: <1112015471.4997.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 21:59 -0800, tuxxer wrote: > I'm putting the finishing touches on the Security Overview before > posting the XML to the bug for editing. I'd like to add an Appendix > that has the default package listing of each type of install. Does > anyone have a listing like this? Or know where I can find one? If so, > this'll save me the trouble of reloading my box several times. ;-) See Fedora/base/comps.xml in the installation tree or on the CDs. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From tuxxer at cox.net Mon Mar 28 17:39:07 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:39:07 -0800 Subject: FC3 Install Type Packages list In-Reply-To: <1112015471.4997.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1111989551.14505.3.camel@bach> <1112015471.4997.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112031547.14505.12.camel@bach> On Mon, 2005-03-28 at 08:11 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 21:59 -0800, tuxxer wrote: > > I'm putting the finishing touches on the Security Overview before > > posting the XML to the bug for editing. I'd like to add an Appendix > > that has the default package listing of each type of install. Does > > anyone have a listing like this? Or know where I can find one? If so, > > this'll save me the trouble of reloading my box several times. ;-) > > See Fedora/base/comps.xml in the installation tree or on the CDs. > This didn't give me exactly what I was looking for. There is still a lot of interpolation that would need to take place to build the list of packages installed. Thanks, though. -Charlie -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tfox at redhat.com Tue Mar 29 21:19:23 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:19:23 -0500 Subject: new project leader Message-ID: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi everyone, Thanks to everyone who has helped with the Fedora docs project. After a slow start, I think we are steadily gaining momentum. >From the Red Hat side, Karsten Wade has really stepped up and demonstrated leadership potential. So much potential in fact, that I have decided to turn over leadership of the project to him. Most projects change leadership once a year or more, and I think this is a great idea for our project as well. In the future, the project leader will change on a yearly basis, if not sooner. I will take more of a technical perspective, offering editing assistance and programming skills should any of our custom DocBook scripts and stylesheets need updating or modifications. In the next few weeks, Karsten will put together a steering committee for the Fedora docs. The committee will meet on a regular basis to discuss tasks that need to be done to move the project forward. Expect to hear more about it from him shortly. Regards, Tammy From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Mar 29 21:39:48 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:39:48 +0100 Subject: new project leader In-Reply-To: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200503292239.48938.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Tuesday 29 Mar 2005 22:19, Tammy Fox wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Thanks to everyone who has helped with the Fedora docs project. After a > slow start, I think we are steadily gaining momentum. > > >From the Red Hat side, Karsten Wade has really stepped up and Well done Karsten!!! Fix the PDFs!!! ;-) Ha, no seriously. Well done. > > demonstrated leadership potential. So much potential in fact, that I > have decided to turn over leadership of the project to him. Most > projects change leadership once a year or more, and I think this is a > great idea for our project as well. In the future, the project leader > will change on a yearly basis, if not sooner. > > I will take more of a technical perspective, offering editing assistance > and programming skills should any of our custom DocBook scripts and > stylesheets need updating or modifications. > > In the next few weeks, Karsten will put together a steering committee > for the Fedora docs. The committee will meet on a regular basis to > discuss tasks that need to be done to move the project forward. Expect > to hear more about it from him shortly. > > Regards, > Tammy -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From kwade at redhat.com Wed Mar 30 00:03:01 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:03:01 -0800 Subject: new project leader In-Reply-To: <200503292239.48938.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> References: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200503292239.48938.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1112140981.9412.109.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 22:39 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > On Tuesday 29 Mar 2005 22:19, Tammy Fox wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > Thanks to everyone who has helped with the Fedora docs project. After a > > slow start, I think we are steadily gaining momentum. > > > > >From the Red Hat side, Karsten Wade has really stepped up and > > Well done Karsten!!! > > Fix the PDFs!!! ;-) Was that the sound of you volunteering to help? Cool. ;-) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From twaugh at redhat.com Wed Mar 30 09:46:47 2005 From: twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:46:47 +0100 Subject: PDF generation: xmlroff Message-ID: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> Recently I've been taking a look at how far along the xmlroff project is (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xmlroff), and whether it can meet the needs of the Fedora Project documentation yet. The short answer is that it cannot yet do all that we need; most notably, the implementation of images is in flux and so they do not work at the moment. The upstream maintainer looks to have a good idea of how it should be done, and has posted a step-by-step list on the xmlroff mailing list: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=6775778&forum_id=29261 However, aside from images, what other things would we need from an XSL-FO processor? My thinking is that if "all" that's missing for us in xmlroff is the images rewrite, it might be quite a nice project to focus on. Tim. */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jos at xos.nl Wed Mar 30 09:59:18 2005 From: jos at xos.nl (Jos Vos) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:59:18 +0200 Subject: PDF generation: xmlroff In-Reply-To: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com>; from twaugh@redhat.com on Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 10:46:47AM +0100 References: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050330115918.A10745@xos037.xos.nl> On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 10:46:47AM +0100, Tim Waugh wrote: > However, aside from images, what other things would we need from an > XSL-FO processor? My thinking is that if "all" that's missing for us > in xmlroff is the images rewrite, it might be quite a nice project to > focus on. What about FOP (Java-based, from the Apache project)? Does that work with GCJ (I only tried it with Sun Java IIRC)? It is far from complete, but it more or less works. -- -- Jos Vos -- X/OS Experts in Open Systems BV | Phone: +31 20 6938364 -- Amsterdam, The Netherlands | Fax: +31 20 6948204 From twaugh at redhat.com Wed Mar 30 10:13:29 2005 From: twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:13:29 +0100 Subject: PDF generation: xmlroff In-Reply-To: <20050330115918.A10745@xos037.xos.nl> References: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> <20050330115918.A10745@xos037.xos.nl> Message-ID: <20050330101329.GI12412@redhat.com> On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 11:59:18AM +0200, Jos Vos wrote: > On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 10:46:47AM +0100, Tim Waugh wrote: > > > However, aside from images, what other things would we need from an > > XSL-FO processor? My thinking is that if "all" that's missing for us > > in xmlroff is the images rewrite, it might be quite a nice project to > > focus on. > > What about FOP (Java-based, from the Apache project)? Does that work > with GCJ (I only tried it with Sun Java IIRC)? It is far from complete, > but it more or less works. Other discussions on this list have talked about FOP, but I haven't seen any conclusions yet. Just pointing out that FOP is not the only other usable XSL-FO processor out there. Tim. */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Mar 30 11:04:34 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:04:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDF generation: xmlroff In-Reply-To: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> References: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> Message-ID: <39956.193.195.148.66.1112180674.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > Recently I've been taking a look at how far along the xmlroff project > is (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xmlroff), and whether it can meet > the needs of the Fedora Project documentation yet. > > The short answer is that it cannot yet do all that we need; most > notably, the implementation of images is in flux and so they do not > work at the moment. The upstream maintainer looks to have a good idea > of how it should be done, and has posted a step-by-step list on the > xmlroff mailing list: > > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=6775778&forum_id=29261 > > However, aside from images, what other things would we need from an > XSL-FO processor? My thinking is that if "all" that's missing for us > in xmlroff is the images rewrite, it might be quite a nice project to > focus on. I think that only a few guides have images in them, so it's too much off a killer. I would just like PDF creation. Gavin. > > Tim. > */ > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Mar 30 11:14:11 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:14:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: new project leader In-Reply-To: <1112140981.9412.109.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200503292239.48938.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> <1112140981.9412.109.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <40469.193.195.148.66.1112181251.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 22:39 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: >> On Tuesday 29 Mar 2005 22:19, Tammy Fox wrote: >> > Hi everyone, >> > >> > Thanks to everyone who has helped with the Fedora docs project. After >> a >> > slow start, I think we are steadily gaining momentum. >> > >> > >From the Red Hat side, Karsten Wade has really stepped up and >> >> Well done Karsten!!! >> >> Fix the PDFs!!! ;-) > > Was that the sound of you volunteering to help? > > Cool. ;-) I thought I already did, didn't I? ;-) > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Wed Mar 30 11:37:51 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:37:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDF generation: xmlroff In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050330113751.85457.qmail@web8506.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Tim Waugh wrote: > Recently I've been taking a look at how far along > the xmlroff project > is (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xmlroff), and > whether it can meet > the needs of the Fedora Project documentation yet. i have been hanging on the LDP lists as a volunteer and reviewer for quite sometime and they do manage to generate PDF's. How about getting in touch with the person responsible(Greg Ferguson, ldp at LDP_NO_SPAM.fergusontechgroup.com) and try and resolve the problem that you are having currently Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From stickster at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 14:08:02 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:08:02 -0500 Subject: new project leader In-Reply-To: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112191682.4893.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 16:19 -0500, Tammy Fox wrote: > Thanks to everyone who has helped with the Fedora docs project. After a > slow start, I think we are steadily gaining momentum. > > >From the Red Hat side, Karsten Wade has really stepped up and > demonstrated leadership potential. So much potential in fact, that I > have decided to turn over leadership of the project to him. Most > projects change leadership once a year or more, and I think this is a > great idea for our project as well. In the future, the project leader > will change on a yearly basis, if not sooner. Congrats, Karsten, and I hope to keep working with you as an editor. I am a little worried about considering an annual change, but that may simply be because of our slow start. In our office, when project leadership changes that often on a project that runs at a cooler temperature, it usually signifies decreased viability. If things heat up here over the next year, though, this concern is probably moot. > I will take more of a technical perspective, offering editing assistance > and programming skills should any of our custom DocBook scripts and > stylesheets need updating or modifications. And let's not forget, although it is not related directly to the FDP, the outstanding work you've been doing on the Red Hat Magazine. If any of the list members haven't checked it out, you should. > In the next few weeks, Karsten will put together a steering committee > for the Fedora docs. The committee will meet on a regular basis to > discuss tasks that need to be done to move the project forward. Expect > to hear more about it from him shortly. Thanks for all you've done, Tammy, and for your continued assistance. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From tfox at redhat.com Wed Mar 30 16:19:56 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:19:56 -0500 Subject: new project leader In-Reply-To: <1112191682.4893.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112191682.4893.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112199596.3941.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 09:08 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 16:19 -0500, Tammy Fox wrote: > > Thanks to everyone who has helped with the Fedora docs project. After a > > slow start, I think we are steadily gaining momentum. > > > > >From the Red Hat side, Karsten Wade has really stepped up and > > demonstrated leadership potential. So much potential in fact, that I > > have decided to turn over leadership of the project to him. Most > > projects change leadership once a year or more, and I think this is a > > great idea for our project as well. In the future, the project leader > > will change on a yearly basis, if not sooner. > > Congrats, Karsten, and I hope to keep working with you as an editor. I > am a little worried about considering an annual change, but that may > simply be because of our slow start. In our office, when project > leadership changes that often on a project that runs at a cooler > temperature, it usually signifies decreased viability. If things heat up > here over the next year, though, this concern is probably moot. > I think changing leaders once a year will keep the project running at a good pace. The trick is that the leader must understand that his/her primary goal is forward progress--helping writers find editors, helping topics find writers, and having the final word on decisions in debate. Since the steering committee members won't change out every year, they can offer the consistent leadership I think you are looking for. > > I will take more of a technical perspective, offering editing assistance > > and programming skills should any of our custom DocBook scripts and > > stylesheets need updating or modifications. > > And let's not forget, although it is not related directly to the FDP, > the outstanding work you've been doing on the Red Hat Magazine. If any > of the list members haven't checked it out, you should. > Thanks for noticing. ;-) > > In the next few weeks, Karsten will put together a steering committee > > for the Fedora docs. The committee will meet on a regular basis to > > discuss tasks that need to be done to move the project forward. Expect > > to hear more about it from him shortly. > > Thanks for all you've done, Tammy, and for your continued assistance. > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE Thanks Paul. Your kind words are appreciated. Tammy From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Mar 30 16:24:45 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:24:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: new project leader In-Reply-To: <1112199596.3941.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112191682.4893.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112199596.3941.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <33386.193.195.148.66.1112199885.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 09:08 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 16:19 -0500, Tammy Fox wrote: >> > Thanks to everyone who has helped with the Fedora docs project. After >> a >> > slow start, I think we are steadily gaining momentum. >> > >> > >From the Red Hat side, Karsten Wade has really stepped up and >> > demonstrated leadership potential. So much potential in fact, that I >> > have decided to turn over leadership of the project to him. Most >> > projects change leadership once a year or more, and I think this is a >> > great idea for our project as well. In the future, the project leader >> > will change on a yearly basis, if not sooner. >> >> Congrats, Karsten, and I hope to keep working with you as an editor. I >> am a little worried about considering an annual change, but that may >> simply be because of our slow start. In our office, when project >> leadership changes that often on a project that runs at a cooler >> temperature, it usually signifies decreased viability. If things heat up >> here over the next year, though, this concern is probably moot. >> > > I think changing leaders once a year will keep the project running at a > good pace. The trick is that the leader must understand that his/her > primary goal is forward progress--helping writers find editors, helping > topics find writers, and having the final word on decisions in debate. > Since the steering committee members won't change out every year, they > can offer the consistent leadership I think you are looking for. > >> > I will take more of a technical perspective, offering editing >> assistance >> > and programming skills should any of our custom DocBook scripts and >> > stylesheets need updating or modifications. >> >> And let's not forget, although it is not related directly to the FDP, >> the outstanding work you've been doing on the Red Hat Magazine. If any >> of the list members haven't checked it out, you should. >> > > Thanks for noticing. ;-) > >> > In the next few weeks, Karsten will put together a steering committee >> > for the Fedora docs. The committee will meet on a regular basis to >> > discuss tasks that need to be done to move the project forward. Expect >> > to hear more about it from him shortly. >> >> Thanks for all you've done, Tammy, and for your continued assistance. >> >> -- >> Paul W. Frields, RHCE > > Thanks Paul. Your kind words are appreciated. Sorry Tammy, I forgot to say well done in my original reply. You helped me out a lot when I first started doing DocBook stuff and when I submit my patches to the Documentation guide. I really appreciate your work and will be following the Red Hat Magazine. Will you still be the Editor of that? Gavin. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From tfox at redhat.com Wed Mar 30 17:20:27 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:20:27 -0500 Subject: new project leader In-Reply-To: <33386.193.195.148.66.1112199885.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1112131163.3937.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112191682.4893.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112199596.3941.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <33386.193.195.148.66.1112199885.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1112203227.3941.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 17:24 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > > On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 09:08 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 16:19 -0500, Tammy Fox wrote: > >> > Thanks to everyone who has helped with the Fedora docs project. After > >> a > >> > slow start, I think we are steadily gaining momentum. > >> > > >> > >From the Red Hat side, Karsten Wade has really stepped up and > >> > demonstrated leadership potential. So much potential in fact, that I > >> > have decided to turn over leadership of the project to him. Most > >> > projects change leadership once a year or more, and I think this is a > >> > great idea for our project as well. In the future, the project leader > >> > will change on a yearly basis, if not sooner. > >> > >> Congrats, Karsten, and I hope to keep working with you as an editor. I > >> am a little worried about considering an annual change, but that may > >> simply be because of our slow start. In our office, when project > >> leadership changes that often on a project that runs at a cooler > >> temperature, it usually signifies decreased viability. If things heat up > >> here over the next year, though, this concern is probably moot. > >> > > > > I think changing leaders once a year will keep the project running at a > > good pace. The trick is that the leader must understand that his/her > > primary goal is forward progress--helping writers find editors, helping > > topics find writers, and having the final word on decisions in debate. > > Since the steering committee members won't change out every year, they > > can offer the consistent leadership I think you are looking for. > > > >> > I will take more of a technical perspective, offering editing > >> assistance > >> > and programming skills should any of our custom DocBook scripts and > >> > stylesheets need updating or modifications. > >> > >> And let's not forget, although it is not related directly to the FDP, > >> the outstanding work you've been doing on the Red Hat Magazine. If any > >> of the list members haven't checked it out, you should. > >> > > > > Thanks for noticing. ;-) > > > >> > In the next few weeks, Karsten will put together a steering committee > >> > for the Fedora docs. The committee will meet on a regular basis to > >> > discuss tasks that need to be done to move the project forward. Expect > >> > to hear more about it from him shortly. > >> > >> Thanks for all you've done, Tammy, and for your continued assistance. > >> > >> -- > >> Paul W. Frields, RHCE > > > > Thanks Paul. Your kind words are appreciated. > > Sorry Tammy, > > I forgot to say well done in my original reply. You helped me out a lot > when I first started doing DocBook stuff and when I submit my patches to > the Documentation guide. I really appreciate your work and will be > following the Red Hat Magazine. > > Will you still be the Editor of that? > > Gavin. > Gavin, Thanks for your kind words as well. Yes, I will still be the editor of Red Hat Magazine. It has been quite a challenge to produce 10+ articles a month from writers all over the world, but it has been fun and exciting at the same time. Everyone will be happy to know that we use DocBook for the magazine since I was able to customize the XSL stylesheets to produce XHTML compliant with the standards for redhat.com. Regards, Tammy From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Mar 30 17:26:12 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:26:12 -0600 Subject: PDF generation: xmlroff In-Reply-To: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> References: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050330112612.502aff67.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Tim Waugh , spake thus: > Recently I've been taking a look at how far along the xmlroff project > is (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xmlroff), and whether it can meet > the needs of the Fedora Project documentation yet. Unfortunately, xmlroff can process a DocBook input only by throwing out the hard stuff; there is even a special stylesheet, for that very purpose, included with the distribution. The folk at tldp.org have taken the same approach (subsetting) with their LinuxDoc sheets. FOP needs to "just work"; it looks furtherest along to me. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Mar 30 19:54:36 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:54:36 -0800 Subject: PDF generation: xmlroff In-Reply-To: <20050330101329.GI12412@redhat.com> References: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> <20050330115918.A10745@xos037.xos.nl> <20050330101329.GI12412@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1112212476.9412.174.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 11:13 +0100, Tim Waugh wrote: > On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 11:59:18AM +0200, Jos Vos wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 10:46:47AM +0100, Tim Waugh wrote: > > > > > However, aside from images, what other things would we need from an > > > XSL-FO processor? My thinking is that if "all" that's missing for us > > > in xmlroff is the images rewrite, it might be quite a nice project to > > > focus on. > > > > What about FOP (Java-based, from the Apache project)? Does that work > > with GCJ (I only tried it with Sun Java IIRC)? It is far from complete, > > but it more or less works. > > Other discussions on this list have talked about FOP, but I haven't > seen any conclusions yet. A quick update on this. Tommy Reynolds patched xmlto to use FOP as a target. Mark Johnson is using this along with the package from jpackage.org in some tests over the next few weeks. Hopefully this will give us a clearer picture of where FOP falls short. > Just pointing out that FOP is not the only other usable XSL-FO > processor out there. Thanks, and definitely everyone keep your eyes open for other possible solutions. No matter what, we need a fully functional open source XSL- FO processor solution ... - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Mar 30 20:26:50 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:26:50 -0800 Subject: how to recruit writers Message-ID: <1112214410.9412.201.camel@erato.phig.org> We definitely need more writers and content. Here is a summary of my recruiting spiel, and I encourage all of you to look for opportunities to recruit new writers: * When someone complains about the docs, ask if they are interesting in helping to make them better. * When someone posts any kind of doc, ask if they are interested in making it a Fedora doc (such as Rahul just did on f-devel-l). * When someone expresses a desire to help a particular project or just open source in general, use the arguments below to see if they might like being a doc writer. Where to look: * The LUG you are a member of and related technical groups (IEEE, SANS, etc.) * IRC and other help forums. * Within existing upstream projects, e.g. GNOME, Samba, etc. In the latter case, a person might be able to get a document into Fedora that wouldn't fit or be accepted in an upstream project. Here is a modified spiel I sent out recently. It's a bit long, but it embodies all the ideas I've thought of. I've used this same kind of content in IRC to recruit folks. ## The Fedora Project is looking for more writers. You don't need to be a great writer. That's why we have editors. Look upon it as a chance to improve your writing skills while contributing to the Fedora community. If this intrigues you at all, please read on. Maybe you've wanted to be involved with Fedora but don't know a way. Or you want to expand your involvement. Consider writing or editing for the Fedora Docs Project (FDP): * Have closer contact with your favorite developers and projects. * Become or further expand into being a subject matter expert for your favorite topics.[1] * Gain reputation within the community. * Learn to be a better writer, editor, and technical reviewer. What might you write about? * Be the release notes subject expert. * Installation or configuration of any software or hardware under Fedora Core, including any of the sub-projects such as Fedora Extras, Fedora Directory Server, and so forth. * General or security best practices, even abstracted from the OS but still relevant to Fedora Core. * Whatever interests you. What is there to worry about? "The toolchain is hard." If you don't know DocBook, it's definitely time for you to learn. Meanwhile, project members have volunteered to help anyone get their document converted into DocBook. From there, you can teach yourself as you continue writing and maintaining. We are using the Wiki at http://www.fedoraproject.org/ and remain open to further toolchain/publishing considerations. Heck, if you want to get fedoraproject.org to host a blog that to publish tips-n-tricks, that would be a great Fedora documentation effort. "The amount of content is a lot to write and maintain." The FDP is geared to small how-to and tutorial documentation. If you know your subject area, you can likely write a usable draft that is 80% complete content within a few hours. Give it a try. You can contribute to a larger guide, such as a chapter or even a section. This is currently true for the release notes, and may be how the Fedora Installation Guide is handled in the future. If you are writing about what you know and alrady use, then the odds are that you will be using it in the future and can easily maintain a document on the subject. This is the difference between Fedora docs and the kind of documentation that Red Hat Enterprise Linux does: massive guides are hard to maintain, while small tutorials and how-to docs can be practically painless to maintain. "I hate writing." We need technical editors, especially if more writers start joining. We may need your help in an area you know about already, in terms of the toolchain, automation, CVS management, project management and so forth. Since effective communication is a part of all of our lives, perhaps this is an opportunity for you to get free editing and writing advice. This is especially helpful for non-native writers who would like to improve their English writing skills. Interested? Drop a note to fedora-docs-list at redhat.com and tell us whatever you want. [1] To see what this has done for one Fedora wirter, google for "selinux" and see the second full return. The Fedora SELinux FAQ has a lot of googlejuice. ## 30 ## ^^^^^^^^ -- This is an old newspaper usage for "that's all, stop setting type." -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From twaugh at redhat.com Wed Mar 30 20:34:25 2005 From: twaugh at redhat.com (Tim Waugh) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:34:25 +0100 Subject: PDF generation: xmlroff In-Reply-To: <20050330112612.502aff67.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> <20050330112612.502aff67.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <20050330203425.GP12412@redhat.com> On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 11:26:12AM -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > FOP needs to "just work"; it looks furtherest along to me. Really? I thought we just needed to have 'xmlto pdf ...' work? I can make xmlto run two stylesheets -- not hard. That was my plan actually. Tim. */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Wed Mar 30 20:44:55 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:44:55 +0200 Subject: Release Notes translation Message-ID: <200503302244.55167.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Hi, since the Release Notes are now hosted in the wiki it shouldn't be a problem to have translations there too. What do you think? Remembering FC3 release there were some translators (including me) wanting to do release notes translation. -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann PS: Who maintains the wiki? An update to MoinMoin 1.3 would be really helpful in terms of multiple language support. PS#2: Can someone please add me to the EditGroup. From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Mar 30 21:41:57 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:41:57 -0600 Subject: PDF generation: xmlroff In-Reply-To: <20050330203425.GP12412@redhat.com> References: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> <20050330112612.502aff67.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <20050330203425.GP12412@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050330154157.5cbbb389.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Tim Waugh , spake thus: > > FOP needs to "just work"; it looks furtherest along to me. > > Really? I thought we just needed to have 'xmlto pdf ...' work? I can > make xmlto run two stylesheets -- not hard. That was my plan > actually. Then I don't expect the generated PDF to bear any resemblance to the appearance of the on-line document. However, even bad breath is better than no breath at all ... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Mar 31 00:46:33 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:46:33 -0800 Subject: how to recruit writers In-Reply-To: <1112214410.9412.201.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112214410.9412.201.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1112229994.9412.230.camel@erato.phig.org> Another point someone just made to me, we want to include writers and editors of all technical levels. Since our docs need to reach audiences from the newest user to the oldest hacker, we should have writers who fill those descriptions to be successful. So, added points: * If you want to learn more about the technology, there is nothing quite like documenting it to learn something thoroughly. * Your technical level doesn't matter, since we need writers at all levels to create docs for users at all levels. * If you are interested in technical writing, documenting Fedora is a great way to gain experience. - Karsten On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 12:26 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > We definitely need more writers and content. Here is a summary of my > recruiting spiel, and I encourage all of you to look for opportunities > to recruit new writers: > > * When someone complains about the docs, ask if they are interesting in > helping to make them better. > > * When someone posts any kind of doc, ask if they are interested in > making it a Fedora doc (such as Rahul just did on f-devel-l). > > * When someone expresses a desire to help a particular project or just > open source in general, use the arguments below to see if they might > like being a doc writer. > > Where to look: > > * The LUG you are a member of and related technical groups (IEEE, SANS, > etc.) > > * IRC and other help forums. > > * Within existing upstream projects, e.g. GNOME, Samba, etc. > > In the latter case, a person might be able to get a document into Fedora > that wouldn't fit or be accepted in an upstream project. > > Here is a modified spiel I sent out recently. It's a bit long, but it > embodies all the ideas I've thought of. I've used this same kind of > content in IRC to recruit folks. > > ## > > The Fedora Project is looking for more writers. > > You don't need to be a great writer. That's why we have editors. > > Look upon it as a chance to improve your writing skills while > contributing to the Fedora community. > > If this intrigues you at all, please read on. > > Maybe you've wanted to be involved with Fedora but don't know a way. > Or you want to expand your involvement. Consider writing or editing > for the Fedora Docs Project (FDP): > > * Have closer contact with your favorite developers and projects. > > * Become or further expand into being a subject matter expert for > your favorite topics.[1] > > * Gain reputation within the community. > > * Learn to be a better writer, editor, and technical reviewer. > > What might you write about? > > * Be the release notes subject expert. > > * Installation or configuration of any software or hardware under > Fedora Core, including any of the sub-projects such as Fedora > Extras, Fedora Directory Server, and so forth. > > * General or security best practices, even abstracted from the OS > but still relevant to Fedora Core. > > * Whatever interests you. > > What is there to worry about? > > "The toolchain is hard." > > If you don't know DocBook, it's definitely time for you to learn. > Meanwhile, project members have volunteered to help anyone get their > document converted into DocBook. From there, you can teach yourself > as you continue writing and maintaining. > > We are using the Wiki at http://www.fedoraproject.org/ and remain > open to further toolchain/publishing considerations. Heck, if you > want to get fedoraproject.org to host a blog that to publish > tips-n-tricks, that would be a great Fedora documentation effort. > > "The amount of content is a lot to write and maintain." > > The FDP is geared to small how-to and tutorial documentation. If > you know your subject area, you can likely write a usable draft that > is 80% complete content within a few hours. Give it a try. > > You can contribute to a larger guide, such as a chapter or even a > section. This is currently true for the release notes, and may be > how the Fedora Installation Guide is handled in the future. > > If you are writing about what you know and alrady use, then the odds > are that you will be using it in the future and can easily maintain > a document on the subject. This is the difference between Fedora > docs and the kind of documentation that Red Hat Enterprise Linux > does: massive guides are hard to maintain, while small tutorials > and how-to docs can be practically painless to maintain. > > "I hate writing." > > We need technical editors, especially if more writers start joining. > We may need your help in an area you know about already, in terms of > the toolchain, automation, CVS management, project management and so > forth. > > Since effective communication is a part of all of our lives, perhaps > this is an opportunity for you to get free editing and writing > advice. This is especially helpful for non-native writers who would > like to improve their English writing skills. > > Interested? Drop a note to fedora-docs-list at redhat.com and tell us > whatever you want. > > [1] To see what this has done for one Fedora wirter, google for > "selinux" and see the second full return. The Fedora SELinux FAQ has > a lot of googlejuice. > > ## 30 ## > ^^^^^^^^ -- This is an old newspaper usage for "that's all, stop setting > type." > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tuxxer at cox.net Thu Mar 31 01:26:43 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:26:43 -0800 Subject: Bug 129957 =?windows-1251?q?=96?= Submitted for Editing Message-ID: <1112232403.5284.5.camel@bach> Bugzilla Bug 129957 ? Fedora Core 2 Hardening Tutorial Request Hi all. I've finally got all the content I think I can put in this thing in there. It is possible that I've left some things out, but I think I've covered most of the basics, which was the original goal. I would like to see if this could be evolved into a comprehensive security guide that would include a discussion of SELinux, 3rd party utilities (that should probably be part of the distro ;-) - like Firestarter. But then, I'm daydreaming again. The preview site has been updated. You can check it out at http://members.cox.net/tuxxer , and the XML has been uploaded to http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/fedora-hardening-guide-whole-en.xml , in addition to being attached to the bug. Please let me know of anything (comments, errors, suggestions, etc.). Thanks, -Charlie -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Mar 31 01:35:56 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:35:56 -0800 Subject: [RFC] Docs Self-Introduction Message-ID: <1112232957.9412.242.camel@erato.phig.org> We haven't had a formal docs self-introduction requirement, or even a page saying how. Now we do: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fSelfIntroduction Thoughts? Mine are: * I like the idea of the self-intro. * I hope the gpg key isn't a bad hurdle for writers and editors who are new to open source projects. * The self-intros I've read often show quite a bit about the person who wrote it, so I think it has some value outside of being purely informative. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tuxxer at cox.net Thu Mar 31 02:14:41 2005 From: tuxxer at cox.net (tuxxer) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:14:41 -0800 Subject: [RFC] Docs Self-Introduction In-Reply-To: <1112232957.9412.242.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112232957.9412.242.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1112235281.5284.9.camel@bach> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 17:35 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > We haven't had a formal docs self-introduction requirement, or even a > page saying how. Now we do: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fSelfIntroduction > > Thoughts? > > Mine are: > > * I like the idea of the self-intro. > * I hope the gpg key isn't a bad hurdle for writers and editors who are > new to open source projects. > * The self-intros I've read often show quite a bit about the person who > wrote it, so I think it has some value outside of being purely > informative. > > - Karsten > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list I, too, like the idea of the self-intro. I like the format you have set out. I don't think that the gpg key should be too big of a hurdle. It's something that people should get accustomed to using anyway. -- -tuxxer gpg: 57EB F948 76AE 25BC E340 EFA9 FAF6 E1AC F1E1 1EA1 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Thu Mar 31 05:18:50 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:18:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RFC] Docs Self-Introduction In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050331051850.38557.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > * I hope the gpg key isn't a bad hurdle for writers > and editors who are > new to open source projects. It wouldnt be if the process of gpg key generation is documented or an external link is provided on the exact steps including the specific path where the key is stored Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Thu Mar 31 05:22:23 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:22:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bug 129957 Submitted for Editing In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050331052223.99213.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- tuxxer wrote: > Bugzilla Bug 129957 ??? Fedora Core 2 Hardening > Tutorial Request > > Hi all. I've finally got all the content I think I > can put in this > thing in there. It is possible that I've left some > things out, but I > think I've covered most of the basics, which was the > original goal. I > would like to see if this could be evolved into a > comprehensive security > guide that would include a discussion of SELinux, > 3rd party utilities > (that should probably be part of the distro ;-) - > like Firestarter. I believe the firestarter developer uses fedora. You can suggest that the upstream developers propose it for inclusion in fedora extras, do it yourself or find a volunteer to do it Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Thu Mar 31 06:17:12 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:17:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hi > > The preview site has been updated. You can check it > out at > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-intro.html#intro-audience " Most of the threats on the Internet typically target Microsoft Windows systems. As more and more users start trying and using linux, it will become more and more important for the common user to know how to harden his or her system against these threats. " this suggests that Linux has no security threats at present which is not true. I would prefer a guide on hardening Linux talk about Linux rather than start by a comparison with Windows http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter1.html The parts about using gpg or md5 requires more explanation. If you are explaning it in a later part refer to that http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/sysid-and-role.html If you are including abbrevations such as NAT it would be better to provide the expansion, explanation or a side note http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/gui-update.html afaik I know yum is the recommended command line program to use instead of up2date in fedora. if you have sections on both yum and up2date you probably need to explain the differences too which I would consider out of scope for this article http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/services-gui.html " The services that you can *safely* disable will depend upon the role of your system." if you need to emphasise on safely use italics or what the style guide recommends. " yum - Enable daily run of yum, a program updater. (This will depend on your environment.)" since every service is pretty much dependant on the role of the system special emphasis for the yum deamon is unnecessary http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/userconfig-cli.html " Below is a list of user accounts that most Fedora Core users will want to disable." The above wording suggests that most users of Fedora do not run the services that follows it. It would be better to say something like this "The following are some of the services that you might want to disable in the system depending on the your requirements" http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter2.html Since this is out of scope for your document by your own admission it would be better to just drop this. Kernel recompilation or additional hardening is unnecessary for the large majority of users and worse gives the idea that the kernel requires active manual intervention to make it secure. http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter3.html I am not sure what the policy is for linking to external documents but permissions are much better explained here http://www.tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/ Either link to this document or copy and paste with attribution (The license is compatible) http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/fssummary.html you can mention that these program exist in fedora extras. fc4 will have extras repo enabled by default. previous versions will require more explanation or how to add the repo (steps are different between fc2 and fc3 fyi) http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/limit-root.html a related sshd configuration change is disable ssh1 protocol which is prone to man-in-the-middle attack http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter4.html this section seems to be redundant http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/shells.html this can probably be clubbed together with the section on users http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/passwd-sec-pam-config.html this section requires more information. if you are going to just point to external links convert this section into a note http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/iptables-fw-config.html it is possible to provide a port range here. More information is available in the redhat docs. redhat.com/docs. you cannot copy and paste (license restrictions) but you very well gather the information from there I would prefer a link to the SELinux faq and guide and provide references and a bibliography. thanks Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From pnasrat at redhat.com Thu Mar 31 07:05:02 2005 From: pnasrat at redhat.com (Paul Nasrat) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:05:02 +0100 Subject: PDF generation: xmlroff In-Reply-To: <1112212476.9412.174.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> <20050330115918.A10745@xos037.xos.nl> <20050330101329.GI12412@redhat.com> <1112212476.9412.174.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1112252702.11957.25.camel@anu.eridu> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 11:54 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > Tommy Reynolds patched xmlto to use FOP as a target. Mark Johnson is > using this along with the package from jpackage.org in some tests over > the next few weeks. Hopefully this will give us a clearer picture of > where FOP falls short. Last I looked there was a non free buildrequires on jimi for FOP. > Thanks, and definitely everyone keep your eyes open for other possible > solutions. No matter what, we need a fully functional open source XSL- > FO processor solution ... Something on top of Cairo would be shiny and new, or docbook support in evince. May attract desktop style ppl. Paul From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Thu Mar 31 09:42:41 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:42:41 +0100 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112262161.24164.230787235@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:17:12 -0800 (PST), "Rahul Sundaram" said: > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/ch-chapter2.html > > Since this is out of scope for your document by your > own admission it would be better to just drop this. > Kernel recompilation or additional hardening is > unnecessary for the large majority of users and worse > gives the idea that the kernel requires active manual > intervention to make it secure. I think that the main issue is that the specified audience ("all users") doesn't match up with the intent (a comprehensive security overview). I don't see there's anything wrong with saying that it's a detailed guide for more advanced users, and leaving the basic security stuff for another doc - 1) don't mess with the defaults without a reason, 2) run updates, 3) there is no step 3 :) -- Stuart Ellis From stickster at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 13:16:38 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:16:38 -0500 Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050331061712.3073.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112274998.4893.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 22:17 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/gui-update.html > > afaik I know yum is the recommended command line > program to use instead of up2date in fedora. if you > have sections on both yum and up2date you probably > need to explain the differences too which I would > consider out of scope for this article Since the section is about doing GUI updates, up2date is the right utility. The up2date utility is still maintained for Fedora by Adrian Likins, and works well. The following section in the tutorial talks about using yum as a CLI update program, so I'm a little confused about your last sentence there. (I use up2date at the command line for several of my more modest FC systems that don't have a GUI, but yum works great too.) I think putting in a link to the update-tutorial at &FDPDOCS-URL; might be a worthwhile edit. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Thu Mar 31 13:19:52 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 05:19:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: review of hardening guide In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050331131952.95697.qmail@web8510.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- "Paul W. Frields" wrote: > On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 22:17 -0800, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: > > http://members.cox.net/tuxxer/gui-update.html > > > > afaik I know yum is the recommended command line > > program to use instead of up2date in fedora. if > you > > have sections on both yum and up2date you probably > > need to explain the differences too which I would > > consider out of scope for this article > > Since the section is about doing GUI updates, > up2date is the right > utility. The up2date utility is still maintained for > Fedora by Adrian > Likins, and works well. The following section in the > tutorial talks > about using yum as a CLI update program, so I'm a > little confused about > your last sentence there. in fedora it seems yum is the preferred method of doing updates. my point was that its better to suggest a recommended method and stick to it rather than point users to multiple tools which are seemingly redudant Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From kwade at redhat.com Thu Mar 31 13:30:53 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 05:30:53 -0800 Subject: [RFC] Docs Self-Introduction In-Reply-To: <20050331051850.38557.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050331051850.38557.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112275853.9412.266.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 21:18 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > * I hope the gpg key isn't a bad hurdle for writers > > and editors who are > > new to open source projects. > > It wouldnt be if the process of gpg key generation is > documented or an external link is provided on the > exact steps including the specific path where the key > is stored What?!? Don't make them google for it, like I have to every time? Well, kind fella that he is, Paul is writing something up on the Wiki, if my adding him to the EditGroup worked as predicted. My thinking, fwiw, is that it's OK to have small hurdles that people have to think in order to overcome, if they don't have the knowledge already. It's like having to register your nick on irc.freenode.net before gaining voice on #fedora. The steps are all right there in the welcome message, if you can't follow those instructions, you definitely won't be able to follow the help you receive on #fedora. I just wanted to be sure we weren't excluding potential writers because of too high barriers. This is why I appreciate the volunteering to DocBookalize submissions from non-DocBook using authors, with the understanding they will do the work to learn how to maintain it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Mar 31 13:36:44 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 05:36:44 -0800 Subject: Bug 129957 Submitted for Editing In-Reply-To: <20050331052223.99213.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050331052223.99213.qmail@web8505.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112276205.9412.269.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 21:22 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > --- tuxxer wrote: > > Bugzilla Bug 129957 Fedora Core 2 Hardening > > Tutorial Request > > > > Hi all. I've finally got all the content I think I > > can put in this > > thing in there. It is possible that I've left some > > things out, but I > > think I've covered most of the basics, which was the > > original goal. I > > would like to see if this could be evolved into a > > comprehensive security > > guide that would include a discussion of SELinux, > > 3rd party utilities > > (that should probably be part of the distro ;-) - > > like Firestarter. > > I believe the firestarter developer uses fedora. You > can suggest that the upstream developers propose it > for inclusion in fedora extras, do it yourself or find > a volunteer to do it Definitely. Anything that is in Extras is fair game for including in documentation. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Thu Mar 31 13:38:42 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:38:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: CVS Access to our own maintained docs? Message-ID: <37725.193.195.148.66.1112276322.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Dear Guys, Has there been any progress on this? Our company has CVS access to the packages we maintain on Fedora Extras, will similiar be available to the docs project? -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in Thu Mar 31 14:22:42 2005 From: rahulsundaram at yahoo.co.in (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 06:22:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RFC] Docs Self-Introduction In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050331142242.58867.qmail@web8509.mail.in.yahoo.com> --- Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 21:18 -0800, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: > > Hi > > > > > * I hope the gpg key isn't a bad hurdle for > writers > > > and editors who are > > > new to open source projects. > > > > It wouldnt be if the process of gpg key generation > is > > documented or an external link is provided on the > > exact steps including the specific path where the > key > > is stored > > What?!? Don't make them google for it, like I have > to every time? > you had to do it. now wouldnt be wonderful not to have everyone else do it just because you did :-) Regards Rahul Sundaram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From kwade at redhat.com Thu Mar 31 14:29:36 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 06:29:36 -0800 Subject: CVS Access to our own maintained docs? In-Reply-To: <37725.193.195.148.66.1112276322.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <37725.193.195.148.66.1112276322.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1112279376.9412.274.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 14:38 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > Dear Guys, > > Has there been any progress on this? > > Our company has CVS access to the packages we maintain on Fedora Extras, > will similiar be available to the docs project? Yes. The first round of committers from this project will be the members of the steering committee, which is actively being formed. Very actively, fwiw, since I'm not sitting still. The steering committee members can then sponsor anyone else in the project. FWIW, I just turned in my own request to get CVS access, since the CVS for fedora.redhat.com Web is now moved over. I'm not sure where the docs stuff is at the moment, but I already asked Elliott to consider moving docs early because it would be so easy. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk Thu Mar 31 16:51:28 2005 From: duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk (Duncan Lithgow) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:51:28 +0200 Subject: how to recruit writers In-Reply-To: <1112214410.9412.201.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112214410.9412.201.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1112287889.5919.14.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> Hi, this sounds like something for me to pipe up on. I've recently joined this list because I'm very keen to see improvements in docs for linux generally. Here are some of my thoughts. - it's wrong to think that newbies can't write docs, they can best write docs for other newbies about things they've just come to grips with. this means that docs need to be (at least) as easy to edit as wikipedia. Another good example that springs to mind is the php manual. http://www.php.net/manual/en/configuration.php - the absence of docs written for non-nerd windows users on how to get started in linux is horrendous. All the things I've seen either oversimplify or are written for command line types. - the fact that so many distros have their own completely seperate docs for the *very same programs* is absurd. ubuntu springs to mind - great project, but a lot of reinventing the wheel as far as much of their docs go. In the course of writing this it strikes me that there are three main levels of doc-writers. It *must not* be a locked and/or techhead oriented issue. * Top level: Full editorial power - responsible for maintaining a logical structure for the docs. * Middle level: 'Node editors' - edit any given page of the docs, but not the logical structure. * Bottom level: Joe public - able to add comments to a page. Comments may or may not be included in 'official doc releases' but always give ideas for those editing the docs. If anyone thinks any of this is worth saying/ hearing/ advocating - let's talk about it... :-) Duncan From duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk Thu Mar 31 17:20:24 2005 From: duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk (Duncan Lithgow) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:20:24 +0200 Subject: [RFC] Docs Self-Introduction In-Reply-To: <20050331051850.38557.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20050331051850.38557.qmail@web8501.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1112289624.5919.43.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 21:18 -0800, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > * I hope the gpg key isn't a bad hurdle for writers > > and editors who are > > new to open source projects. > > It wouldnt be if the process of gpg key generation is > documented nooooooo!! Please don't write yet another half finished docs, link to a good one and help improve it - I would except i have heaps of problems with gpg myself. > or an external link is provided on the > exact steps including the specific path where the key > is stored yes yes yes From duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk Thu Mar 31 17:17:36 2005 From: duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk (Duncan Lithgow) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:17:36 +0200 Subject: Self-Introduction: Duncan Lithgow Message-ID: <1112289456.5919.40.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> from: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fSelfIntroduction > The below items in bold are Required while the other items are optional but highly recommended. WTF!!?? People volunteer to help and get rather long list of *required* information!!?? I reserve further comment and decided it would be bad form for a new user to edit the wiki... I won't even start talking about right to privacy and the idea of a meritocracy! Anyway... Body 1. Duncan Lithgow 2. I'm in the city of ?rhus in Denmark (pronounced 'oar-huus'), but New Zealander by birth and taste in breakfast cereals. 3. I'm trained as an architect, self taught so-so php programmer but good with html/css. Currently doing boring labour temping. Done lot's of other irrelevant stuff. Oh, one relevant thing is I'm a trained 'english as a foreign language' (efl/esl) teacher - so i'm passionate on the need for docs written in easy to understand english - far too much is written for advanced english speakers - think how many non english speakers try to make use of these docs. 4. n/a 5. Your goals in the Fedora Project * What do you want to write about? * - don't know yet. Maybe 'Why should your non-nerd girlfriend/boss/college use linux and how to convince them and them her' * What other documentation do you want to see published? - see above * Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? * - yes/yes/no * Anything else special? * - editing for friendliness to esl readers. 6. Historical qualifications * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? * - while learning postnuke cms I wrote this about the theme system, I thought it was poorly documented and neede to keep track of what I was learning. I've since turned the xml file over to the postnuke docs team ( i don't use postnuke any more) http://www.lithgow- schmidt.dk/pnThemeManual_v01/ch01.html * What level and type of computer skills do you have? * - modest, just starting to learn the command line. Long time semi-power-user of windows. * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc. * - good at cross-culture communication, constructive critic of design quality of gui's in terms of logical structure and intuitiveness. * Why should we trust you? <--- too blunt? * You shouldn't until I've proved myself, but hey, get over it, we're talking about writing docs! 7. GPG KEYID and fingerprint * Be sure that your GPG key is uploaded to pgp.mit.edu. Use "gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --send-key KEYID". * Your GPG fingerprint is 40 hexadecimal characters long, while your KEYID is the last 8 digits. * Below is an example of a block of text suitable for cut & paste into your self-introduction e-mail. * sounds like a hastle, follow the link, it's easier: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0x21A8C63A So, that's me on a good day, in an impatient tone. ;-) Duncan From gustavo.seabra at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 18:26:37 2005 From: gustavo.seabra at gmail.com (Gustavo Seabra) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:26:37 -0600 Subject: fedora-list guidelines Message-ID: Hi, I am new to this list. the reason I'm posting here is the following: At the 'fedora-list' there has been a recent community effort to formulate a document with the "guidelines" for posting to that list. After a number of drafts and discussions, this document has reached a more mature form, and has been put in the form of a web page: Original: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~seabra/linux/FedoraRules.html Mirror: http://www.cwelug.org/fedora/FedoraRules.html It is already considered "official", in the sense that it grew from discussions in the list that have reached a consunsus. As a next step, we would like to make this document know for most users of the list. For this, the suggestions we have are: 1. Monthly reminder: having a link or a text-only version of this document sent automatically monthly to all subscribers; 2. Part of a welcoming message: Either include a link in the welcoming message, or send a separate e-mail with the text-only version of the document to every new subscriber; 3. Linked to sign-up page: maybe there could be a link in the sign in page? 4. Link in the sugnature. (in **MY** opinion, this would likely be the most effective of all.) It would help if there could be a link in the signature added by RedHat to all messages distributed. The signature could then look something like: --** fedora-list mailing list fedora-list at redhat.com To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Before posting to this list, please check << link here >> 4. Submission to Fedora-docs: That last suggestion was made to make this documet more "official". So, that's where we are now. Please consider this message as a "submission" Unless there's another way to do it). We would really appreciate if the people responsibe could take a look at the page and consider accepting it, if it seems appropriate. Thank you very much, -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gustavo Seabra Graduate Student Chemistry Dept. Kansas State University Registered Linux user number 381680 ------------------------------------------------------------------ If at first you don't succeed... ...skydiving is not for you. From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Mar 31 19:49:24 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:49:24 -0600 Subject: PDF generation: xmlroff In-Reply-To: <1112252702.11957.25.camel@anu.eridu> References: <20050330094647.GH12412@redhat.com> <20050330115918.A10745@xos037.xos.nl> <20050330101329.GI12412@redhat.com> <1112212476.9412.174.camel@erato.phig.org> <1112252702.11957.25.camel@anu.eridu> Message-ID: <20050331134924.1364b966.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Paul Nasrat , spake thus: > > Tommy Reynolds patched xmlto to use FOP as a target. Mark Johnson is > > using this along with the package from jpackage.org in some tests over > > the next few weeks. Hopefully this will give us a clearer picture of > > where FOP falls short. > > Last I looked there was a non free buildrequires on jimi for FOP. The jpackage.org stuff looks to be a cadillac build. It's not really a requirement. Without jimi, FOP doesn't recognize .PNG images. Native support for .gif and .jpg are supported without any external packages, though. FOP can be built to support these non-free packages if they can be found at runtime, but doesn't require them: they are runtime optional. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Thu Mar 31 19:59:42 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:59:42 -0500 Subject: XIncludes and href In-Reply-To: <57044.193.195.148.66.1107877534.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <57044.193.195.148.66.1107877534.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <424C56AE.3090004@redhat.com> > Does anyone have any experience of these, as they are doing my head in? I do. They are used for different purposes, though. xref's are for cross-referencing: http://sagehill.net/docbookxsl/CrossRefs.html#IdrefLinks Whereas XIncludes are used to pull another doc into your doc. This provides an alternative to using the "external file as entity" method, and provides for greater flexibility in document composition. (e.g. your XIncluded docs can have prologs) Gotta be careful that your xslt processor knows about XInclude, though. I believe there's a switch for xsltproc... At any rate, I again point you to Bob Stayton's "DocBook XSL" as a reference - pretty sure he covers the essentials: http://sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ModularDoc.html#UsingXinclude You might also want to post any specific questions you have to the docbook-apps list - response time is surprisingly quick. HTH. Cheers, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From kwade at redhat.com Thu Mar 31 20:15:28 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:15:28 -0800 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112300128.9412.303.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 12:26 -0600, Gustavo Seabra wrote: > Hi, > > I am new to this list. the reason I'm posting here is the following: > > At the 'fedora-list' there has been a recent community effort to > formulate a document with the "guidelines" for posting to that list. > After a number of drafts and discussions, this document has reached a > more mature form, and has been put in the form of a web page: > > Original: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~seabra/linux/FedoraRules.html > Mirror: http://www.cwelug.org/fedora/FedoraRules.html This is great. It is succinct and useful. Thanks for bringing it here. > It is already considered "official", in the sense that it grew from > discussions in the list that have reached a consunsus. As a next step, > we would like to make this document know for most users of the list. > For this, the suggestions we have are: One immediate option that might make sense is to use the Wiki at fedoraproject.org. This works if the document is still in flux somewhat. Then it has an official-looking URL, and the others can mirror that. However, if it's solid and not likely to get as many edits, then it seems to me like a perfect document for fedora.redhat.com/docs. More on this below ... > 1. Monthly reminder: having a link or a text-only > version of this document sent automatically > monthly to all subscribers; We can ask the Fedora list admin to include a link to the URL within the monthly mailing list reminder that Mailman sends out automatically. > 2. Part of a welcoming message: Either include a > link in the welcoming message, or send a separate > e-mail with the text-only version of the document > to every new subscriber; There is a welcome message to new list subscribers, and a custom message can be edited. I'd suspect the list maintainers would like to have a helpful URL. > 3. Linked to sign-up page: maybe there could be a link > in the sign in page? Same as above, it's a simple matter in the Mailman text. Let's get the document at a permanent URL, and then finalize the request. > 4. Link in the sugnature. (in **MY** opinion, this would > likely be the most effective of all.) It would help if > there could be a link in the signature added by RedHat > to all messages distributed. The signature could then > look something like: > --** > fedora-list mailing list > fedora-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list > Before posting to this list, please check << link here >> Same as above, simple matter via the Mailman interface. > 4. Submission to Fedora-docs: That last suggestion was made > to make this documet more "official". Yes, this is a good way to complete the circle. > So, that's where we are now. Please consider this message as a > "submission" Unless there's another way to do it). We would really > appreciate if the people responsibe could take a look at the page and > consider accepting it, if it seems appropriate. Now the hard part. :) We can accept the submission, and the document will be easy to put into DocBook for maintenance. This has the advantage of providing the maintainer with a reference implementation in DocBook, in the maintainers don't know DocBook yet. Someone needs to step-up to maintain this doc, keep it alive, handle bug reports against it, and update it as new ideas and changes come along. If the time comes to pass it along, the maintainer needs to be responsible and not drop the document. Are you interested in this? Or someone else involved in the writing of the document? Take a look at this to see the process we use: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ We can get a writer to help with the conversion to DocBook and to get the author/maintainer started. Of course, the list is here to help with ongoing learning of DocBook, writing, etc. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sam1975 at wanadoo.fr Thu Mar 31 19:49:54 2005 From: sam1975 at wanadoo.fr (samuel desseaux) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:49:54 +0200 Subject: how to recruit writers Message-ID: <424C5462.90708@wanadoo.fr> I 've read this interessant message and would be happy to get involved in the docs project. I'm French,29,Linux user (and addict) since a long time. In my free time, i like to contribute to free softwares projects (as developer or translator,writer). I am a Fedora user since last year and it's very wonderful (with my 64 bits,that's amazing ).That's for why i want to contribute to Fedora as writer (and developer if i have enough time).It would be for me a very good and learnful experience. So,tell me what i can (or could) do. Best regards sam From drcasey at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 20:33:59 2005 From: drcasey at yahoo.com (BEN CASEY) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:33:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: how to recruit writers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050331203400.48206.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Everyone, Regarding this thread... I signed up for the mailing list right when my job was terminated and I was laid off from SGI. Once I can land myself a job, I'll be an active contributor. I have one heck of a mail queue to look through! Regards, Ben __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk Thu Mar 31 21:00:44 2005 From: duncan at lithgow-schmidt.dk (Duncan Lithgow) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:00:44 +0200 Subject: fedora-list guidelines In-Reply-To: <1112300128.9412.303.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1112300128.9412.303.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1112302844.6790.4.camel@3e6b2703.rev.stofanet.dk> Hi Gustavo, I see we've both ended up on this list after working on that guide. :-) > One immediate option that might make sense is to use the Wiki at > fedoraproject.org. This works if the document is still in flux > somewhat. Then it has an official-looking URL, and the others can > mirror that. > However, if it's solid and not likely to get as many edits, then it > seems to me like a perfect document for fedora.redhat.com/docs. How about we do both? Make a permanant link for this version and stop calling it a draft - call it version 1. And another wiki version ready for any later changes? > http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ > > We can get a writer to help with the conversion to DocBook and to get > the author/maintainer started. Of course, the list is here to help with > ongoing learning of DocBook, writing, etc. I would love to put it into DocBook, I've used XMLmind for DcoBook before and would love to start using am Opensource app. I'll read the quick-start guide over the weekend. Duncan From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Thu Mar 31 21:24:28 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:24:28 +0100 Subject: XIncludes and href In-Reply-To: <424C56AE.3090004@redhat.com> References: <57044.193.195.148.66.1107877534.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <424C56AE.3090004@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200503312224.28356.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Thursday 31 Mar 2005 20:59, Mark Johnson wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience of these, as they are doing my head in? > > I do. They are used for different purposes, though. xref's are for > cross-referencing: > > http://sagehill.net/docbookxsl/CrossRefs.html#IdrefLinks > > Whereas XIncludes are used to pull another doc into your doc. This provides > an alternative to using the "external file as entity" method, and provides > for greater flexibility in document composition. (e.g. your XIncluded docs > can have prologs) Gotta be careful that your xslt processor knows about > XInclude, though. I believe there's a switch for xsltproc... At any rate, I > again point you to Bob Stayton's "DocBook XSL" as a reference - pretty sure > he covers the essentials: > > http://sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ModularDoc.html#UsingXinclude > > > You might also want to post any specific questions you have to the > docbook-apps list - response time is surprisingly quick. Thank you. I will read those links and join that list too. > > HTH. > > Cheers, > Mark > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Mark Johnson > OS Product Documentation > Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. > Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 > GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/