From stuart at elsn.org Sat Apr 1 10:29:30 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 11:29:30 +0100 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 13:27 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Click-throughs are passive, people can do them without thought. The > > sign-the-CLA-with-GPG is active. > > But I agree that GPG signing emails is just frills compared with the > CLA. No reason people should go through that pain if they don't care. > I've been using PGP/GPG so long that I don't, but it's obviously a > significant barrier to some people, and since it's not necessary outside > the CLA, we should remove or demote it like you said. My ~$0.02. FWIW, when I wrote that line I had a couple of things in mind: 1) Since in practice you need a GPG key and a Linux box to contribute, and the default GNOME mail client (Evolution) enables GPG with one setting, signed e-mail is almost free (I thought). Kmail has GPG support as well, I believe. 2) Doing the Right Thing: without some kind of signature, an e-mail just isn't trustworthy, even though most people do assume the "From:" field can be trusted. Which is slightly worrying, and something that I have to explain semi-regularly as people receive infected or phish mails. With a project like this, where contributors often only interact through IRC and e-mail, signed mail is particularly valuable IMO. Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the versions of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the Fedora repositories for Enigmail. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Apr 1 13:34:37 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 19:04:37 +0530 Subject: Draft document on burning ISO images Message-ID: <1143898477.3802.804.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Hi http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/BurningDiscs This would be a very important document for non technical users attempting to start using Fedora. More content and editorial reviews would be helpful from the lurkers in this list. Rahul From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sat Apr 1 14:07:05 2006 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 08:07:05 -0600 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060401080705.be08b480.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Stuart Ellis , spake thus: > 1) Since in practice you need a GPG key and a Linux box to contribute, > and the default GNOME mail client (Evolution) enables GPG with one > setting, signed e-mail is almost free (I thought). Kmail has GPG support > as well, I believe. Originally correct, but now out-dated. To be involved with the I18N support, one needs only a computer. WinDoze users can use either CYGWIN or native M$ tools to provide a translation .PO file. -- I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have every intention of dying an abuse! From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 1 15:36:18 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 10:36:18 -0500 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1143905778.5417.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 11:29 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 13:27 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > Click-throughs are passive, people can do them without thought. The > > > sign-the-CLA-with-GPG is active. > > > > But I agree that GPG signing emails is just frills compared with the > > CLA. No reason people should go through that pain if they don't care. > > I've been using PGP/GPG so long that I don't, but it's obviously a > > significant barrier to some people, and since it's not necessary outside > > the CLA, we should remove or demote it like you said. My ~$0.02. > > FWIW, when I wrote that line I had a couple of things in mind: > > 1) Since in practice you need a GPG key and a Linux box to contribute, > and the default GNOME mail client (Evolution) enables GPG with one > setting, signed e-mail is almost free (I thought). Kmail has GPG support > as well, I believe. Yes, those are both low-drag apps as far as GPG goes. > 2) Doing the Right Thing: without some kind of signature, an e-mail just > isn't trustworthy, even though most people do assume the "From:" field > can be trusted. Which is slightly worrying, and something that I have to > explain semi-regularly as people receive infected or phish mails. With a > project like this, where contributors often only interact through IRC > and e-mail, signed mail is particularly valuable IMO. Don't get me wrong, I prefer GPG, I just don't want it to be a sticking point for new contributors. > Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the versions > of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with > Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the > Fedora repositories for Enigmail. I looked into this too and discovered the same thing. I wonder why no one has packaged it, seeing as how it's so useful? Anyone interested in doing so? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Apr 1 15:44:16 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 21:14:16 +0530 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1143905778.5417.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143905778.5417.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1143906256.3802.812.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 10:36 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the versions > > of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with > > Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the > > Fedora repositories for Enigmail. > > I looked into this too and discovered the same thing. I wonder why no > one has packaged it, seeing as how it's so useful? Anyone interested in > doing so? Does it require repackaging in Fedora? Its is a trivially easy extension to install. What we need is not packages but better documentation on using GPG. write up a outline and post to the list and see if any of the contributors listed (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors) would be interested in writing the document. We really need to focus on getting simple documents done better. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 1 18:45:38 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 13:45:38 -0500 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1143906256.3802.812.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143905778.5417.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143906256.3802.812.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1143917138.6883.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 21:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 10:36 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the versions > > > of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with > > > Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the > > > Fedora repositories for Enigmail. > > > > I looked into this too and discovered the same thing. I wonder why no > > one has packaged it, seeing as how it's so useful? Anyone interested in > > doing so? > > Does it require repackaging in Fedora? Its is a trivially easy extension > to install. What we need is not packages but better documentation on > using GPG. write up a outline and post to the list and see if any of the > contributors listed > (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors) would be > interested in writing the document. We really need to focus on getting > simple documents done better. Does it *require* repackaging? I'm not sure. Look at the instructions at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/WithThunderbird and you tell me. These have been up for some time. I'd say being able to use yum or pirut would be a big help here for beginners. Somebody out there on this list has to be using Thunderbird. Got a few minutes to contribute? Then try these instructions, AS WRITTEN, and let us know if they're not working. Better yet, edit the wiki page shown here. We'll see the results and handle any editing, so don't worry about getting your spelling or grammar perfect. Step right up folks! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Sat Apr 1 19:11:13 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 20:11:13 +0100 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1143917138.6883.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143905778.5417.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143906256.3802.812.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1143917138.6883.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1143918673.13053.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 13:45 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 21:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 10:36 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > > > Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the versions > > > > of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with > > > > Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the > > > > Fedora repositories for Enigmail. > > > > > > I looked into this too and discovered the same thing. I wonder why no > > > one has packaged it, seeing as how it's so useful? Anyone interested in > > > doing so? > > > > Does it require repackaging in Fedora? Its is a trivially easy extension > > to install. What we need is not packages but better documentation on > > using GPG. write up a outline and post to the list and see if any of the > > contributors listed > > (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors) would be > > interested in writing the document. We really need to focus on getting > > simple documents done better. > > Does it *require* repackaging? I'm not sure. Look at the instructions > at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/WithThunderbird > and you tell me. These have been up for some time. I'd say being able > to use yum or pirut would be a big help here for beginners. > > Somebody out there on this list has to be using Thunderbird. Got a few > minutes to contribute? Then try these instructions, AS WRITTEN, and let > us know if they're not working. Better yet, edit the wiki page shown > here. We'll see the results and handle any editing, so don't worry > about getting your spelling or grammar perfect. Step right up folks! I've been looking into this, and have replaced the content on that page with instructions for FC5. They work for me, but I'm not a regular Thunderbird user, so anybody who is should feel free to edit. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 1 20:03:34 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 15:03:34 -0500 Subject: Tip a day In-Reply-To: <1143745558.22716.148.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1143734005.3802.699.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1143745558.22716.148.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1143921815.6883.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-03-30 at 11:05 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2006-03-30 at 21:23 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > > > Someone suggested earlier in fedora-devel list that we have a Fedora > > welcome screen on first login for new users to guide them. One of the > > usual inclusions in such things is a tip a day feature like those KDE > > has for example. > > > > We might be able to expand the scope of this if we have a place to > > submit tips and then collect, review and edit them and then display the > > published ones in the website with a different tip everyday. The best > > ones can be included later within the distribution if we have a welcome > > screen feature in a future release. Comments? > > Lovely idea. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/TipADay > > Seems like an easy place to write, edit, and gather them. There's a mock up for changing the front page at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/TipTest Refresh to see the magical revolving content. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Sat Apr 1 20:04:05 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 21:04:05 +0100 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <20060401080705.be08b480.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060401080705.be08b480.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1143921846.13053.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 08:07 -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Stuart Ellis , spake thus: > > > 1) Since in practice you need a GPG key and a Linux box to contribute, > > and the default GNOME mail client (Evolution) enables GPG with one > > setting, signed e-mail is almost free (I thought). Kmail has GPG support > > as well, I believe. > > Originally correct, but now out-dated. > > To be involved with the I18N support, one needs only a computer. > WinDoze users can use either CYGWIN or native M$ tools to provide a > translation .PO file. Good point. FWIW, the Enigmail site has a fairly thorough tutorial on setting up GnuPG on Windows, for those that way want to handle GPG-signed mail on that OS: http://enigmail.mozdev.org/gpgconf.html I didn't add that link to the Wiki, since it's not at all Fedora-specific. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From blcjr2 at gmail.com Sat Apr 1 22:14:58 2006 From: blcjr2 at gmail.com (Basil Copeland) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 16:14:58 -0600 Subject: Draft document on burning ISO images In-Reply-To: <1143898477.3802.804.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1143898477.3802.804.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <986aa8a20604011414q18e55509yfde6c94541131071@mail.gmail.com> I'm thinking that any Windows users thinking of installing Fedora are more adept at burning ISO's that you give them credit for. That said, while I wouldn't suggest any material changes to what you've posted for Windows, what about novice Linux users, who might be working from a Linux distro, possibly even a live CD? I.e., how about instructions for how to burn ISO's in Linux, especially for situations where the CDROM is not automounted, and users may not have menu access to a burner utility. I suppose I qualify as a semi-literate Linux user, and frankly I was taken by surprise that FC5 no longer automounts removable media. The release notes say something about "gnome-mount" but it is Greek to me (as I use TWM or XFCE, not Gnome). Fortunately, I speak Geek, and quickly scoped out what FC5 was showing in /dev, and mounted the cdrom from the command line, and proceeded to burn iso's with cdrecord. If we are going to cater to CLI-challenged Windows users, we probably should do the same for CLI-challenged Linux users, and step them through the process of burning ISO's from the command line, if need be. Otherwise, the document is very well written for its intended audience. I'm just suggesting broadening the "non-technical" audience to include Linux users who might fall into that category. Basil Copeland On 4/1/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/BurningDiscs > > This would be a very important document for non technical users > attempting to start using Fedora. More content and editorial reviews > would be helpful from the lurkers in this list. > > > > Rahul > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Apr 1 22:24:02 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 03:54:02 +0530 Subject: Draft document on burning ISO images In-Reply-To: <986aa8a20604011414q18e55509yfde6c94541131071@mail.gmail.com> References: <1143898477.3802.804.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <986aa8a20604011414q18e55509yfde6c94541131071@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1143930242.3783.15.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 16:14 -0600, Basil Copeland wrote: > I'm thinking that any Windows users thinking of installing Fedora are > more adept at burning ISO's that you give them credit for. Considering the flood of questions every release, I dont think so. Providing good detailed documentation is not a question of credit but guidance. > That said, while I wouldn't suggest any material changes to what > you've posted for Windows, what about novice Linux users, who might be > working from a Linux distro, possibly even a live CD? I.e., how about > instructions for how to burn ISO's in Linux, especially for situations > where the CDROM is not automounted, and users may not have menu access > to a burner utility Feel free to write such documentation and provide us. We want more people to work on specific task based documents along with longer length guides. > . I suppose I qualify as a semi-literate Linux user, and frankly I > was taken by surprise that FC5 no longer automounts removable media. It does for me. What has changed is fixed media mounting. That is documented in the package notes section in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/PackageNotes Rahul From chris at savagereactor.co.uk Sat Apr 1 23:57:59 2006 From: chris at savagereactor.co.uk (Chris Savage) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 00:57:59 +0100 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1143917138.6883.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143905778.5417.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143906256.3802.812.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1143917138.6883.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <442F1387.3060208@savagereactor.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I am using Thunderbird, I installed Enigmail from the Firefox/Thunderbird extensions site a while back, it installed without problems, then recently, I followed the tutorial at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/CreatingKeys to create the keys, I choose OpenPGP > Sign Message the menu in "Compose" it let me select key I'd just created and away it went. I'm using TB 1.5 on FC5. Chris Savage Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 21:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 10:36 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> >>>> Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the versions >>>> of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with >>>> Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the >>>> Fedora repositories for Enigmail. >>> I looked into this too and discovered the same thing. I wonder why no >>> one has packaged it, seeing as how it's so useful? Anyone interested in >>> doing so? >> Does it require repackaging in Fedora? Its is a trivially easy extension >> to install. What we need is not packages but better documentation on >> using GPG. write up a outline and post to the list and see if any of the >> contributors listed >> (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors) would be >> interested in writing the document. We really need to focus on getting >> simple documents done better. > > Does it *require* repackaging? I'm not sure. Look at the instructions > at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/WithThunderbird > and you tell me. These have been up for some time. I'd say being able > to use yum or pirut would be a big help here for beginners. > > Somebody out there on this list has to be using Thunderbird. Got a few > minutes to contribute? Then try these instructions, AS WRITTEN, and let > us know if they're not working. Better yet, edit the wiki page shown > here. We'll see the results and handle any editing, so don't worry > about getting your spelling or grammar perfect. Step right up folks! > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFELxOHyswxNkg9GHcRAovTAJ9OyGtdVRwSHH+lmXVMeeenJCA5lQCeProJ nDm04wBTGXTw1FV9XUCBYAk= =rn4b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Apr 2 03:38:23 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 09:08:23 +0530 Subject: Publishing task based documentation Message-ID: <1143949104.3783.54.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Hi http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SELinux - This has enough content to be turned into a good guide. I think we should publish these as smaller task based documents as originally intended by the project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ScreenCasting http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Testing Rahul From edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net Sun Apr 2 04:48:55 2006 From: edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net (Edward Haddock) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 18:48:55 -1000 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1143953335.4229.2.camel@edward.haddock.family> Aloha, I agree that signing emails is a good idea. In the doc I am writing I have kept it in and am using the instructions on how to set it up from the website. Mahalo, Edward On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 11:29 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 13:27 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > Click-throughs are passive, people can do them without thought. The > > > sign-the-CLA-with-GPG is active. > > > > But I agree that GPG signing emails is just frills compared with the > > CLA. No reason people should go through that pain if they don't care. > > I've been using PGP/GPG so long that I don't, but it's obviously a > > significant barrier to some people, and since it's not necessary outside > > the CLA, we should remove or demote it like you said. My ~$0.02. > > FWIW, when I wrote that line I had a couple of things in mind: > > 1) Since in practice you need a GPG key and a Linux box to contribute, > and the default GNOME mail client (Evolution) enables GPG with one > setting, signed e-mail is almost free (I thought). Kmail has GPG support > as well, I believe. > > 2) Doing the Right Thing: without some kind of signature, an e-mail just > isn't trustworthy, even though most people do assume the "From:" field > can be trusted. Which is slightly worrying, and something that I have to > explain semi-regularly as people receive infected or phish mails. With a > project like this, where contributors often only interact through IRC > and e-mail, signed mail is particularly valuable IMO. > > Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the versions > of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with > Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the > Fedora repositories for Enigmail. > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Sun Apr 2 09:33:40 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 10:33:40 +0100 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1143953335.4229.2.camel@edward.haddock.family> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143953335.4229.2.camel@edward.haddock.family> Message-ID: <1143970420.2598.8.camel@Vigor11> On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 18:48 -1000, Edward Haddock wrote: > Aloha, > I agree that signing emails is a good idea. In the doc I am writing > I have kept it in and am using the instructions on how to set it up from > the website. OK, thanks. I don't think it would be reasonable for it to be mandatory, but it's a good thing to do. As mentioned on the previous mail, I've done instructions for Thunderbird configuration. The Seahorse utility provides a graphical GPG tool that integrates with GNOME, if you'd like to offer an alternative to the command-line for users of that desktop. BTW, it's common e-mail etiquette to post replies after the quoted mail, and some people in UNIX circles can be quite sharp about "top-posting", so watch out :). -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie Sun Apr 2 11:53:36 2006 From: tim at birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 12:53:36 +0100 Subject: Draft document on burning ISO images References: <1143898477.3802.804.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <986aa8a20604011414q18e55509yfde6c94541131071@mail.gmail.com> <1143930242.3783.15.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> I'm thinking that any Windows users thinking of installing Fedora are >> more adept at burning ISO's that you give them credit for. > > Considering the flood of questions every release, I dont think so. > Providing good detailed documentation is not a question of credit but > guidance. I would have thought that one could say everything about burnings ISOs in a few sentences; it hardly seems to me to warrant a separate document. My view would be that a document on how _not_ to burn ISOs, ie how to install Fedora without using CDs (or DVDs) would be much more useful. I know there is a section in the Installation Guide on Alternative Installation Methods, but it strikes me as rather esoteric - eg I would prefer to read the actual commands one has to give if using PXEboot, for example. I've had a surprising amount of trouble with the FC-5 CDs - quite possibly due to my CD-burning hardware - and this has led me to wonder if too much emphasis is not put on CDs as installation medium. If you have only one machine, is it really worth burning a CD? Many people have huge disks nowadays, so if you have to download the ISOs, isn't it just as simple (and more reliable, in my case at least) to install from hard disk? And if you have lots of machines, isn't a USB drive as easy to use today as CDs? Just a few, slightly OT, thoughts. PS I'm very happy with FC-5, thanks - it does seem to me that each FC distribution is slightly better, although I would worry that they are also getting more complicated. I'm also very impressed with the effort being put into documentation. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Apr 2 13:51:12 2006 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 08:51:12 -0500 Subject: example-tutorial/po de.po,1.7,1.8 In-Reply-To: <200604021125.k32BPbMO015113@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> References: <200604021125.k32BPbMO015113@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060402085112.5250e8bd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Tom Gier" (tomg) , spake thus: > Log Message: > finished translation for DE Please also update the "rpm-info.xml" file, and then this really will be complete ;-) Cheers -- I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have every intention of dying an abuse! From info at thomasgier.de Sun Apr 2 14:12:54 2006 From: info at thomasgier.de (Tom Gier) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 16:12:54 +0200 Subject: example-tutorial/po de.po,1.7,1.8 In-Reply-To: <20060402085112.5250e8bd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <200604021125.k32BPbMO015113@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> <20060402085112.5250e8bd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <20060402161254.221652b1.info@thomasgier.de> On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 08:51:12 -0500 Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Tom Gier" (tomg) , spake thus: > > > Log Message: > > finished translation for DE > > Please also update the "rpm-info.xml" file, and then this really will > be complete ;-) > > Cheers > Oh. Yes. Right ... let's see ... hmmm ... am I supposed to change all this me at home.net et.al. stuff in the line, add my name/ID as "worker translator" and put something witty to the changelog? Seem reasonable to me but I ask anyway - don't want to break things or The Build [TM] :) Cheers Tom -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dwmw2 at infradead.org Sun Apr 2 14:33:09 2006 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 15:33:09 +0100 Subject: Draft document on burning ISO images In-Reply-To: <1143898477.3802.804.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1143898477.3802.804.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1143988389.19590.174.camel@pmac.infradead.org> On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 19:04 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/BurningDiscs > > This would be a very important document for non technical users > attempting to start using Fedora. More content and editorial reviews > would be helpful from the lurkers in this list. I think we'd do better to encourage them not to use the ISO images at all; instead to do network installation where possible. You get to skip the whole 'optical media are unreliable as hell and you need to do the media check and still expect random failures' bit that way. -- dwmw2 From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 2 15:01:21 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 11:01:21 -0400 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1143970420.2598.8.camel@Vigor11> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143953335.4229.2.camel@edward.haddock.family> <1143970420.2598.8.camel@Vigor11> Message-ID: <1143990081.2493.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 10:33 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 18:48 -1000, Edward Haddock wrote: > > Aloha, > > I agree that signing emails is a good idea. In the doc I am writing > > I have kept it in and am using the instructions on how to set it up from > > the website. > > OK, thanks. I don't think it would be reasonable for it to be mandatory, > but it's a good thing to do. > > As mentioned on the previous mail, I've done instructions for > Thunderbird configuration. The Seahorse utility provides a graphical GPG > tool that integrates with GNOME, if you'd like to offer an alternative > to the command-line for users of that desktop. I have Seahorse installed too, and it's very convenient, especially with the Nautilus context menu "Encrypt/Decrypt File" functions it provides. > BTW, it's common e-mail etiquette to post replies after the quoted mail, > and some people in UNIX circles can be quite sharp about "top-posting", > so watch out :). We try not to slap any wrists around here, but sooner or later *someone* was bound to say something. :-) As you know, this is the "kindler, gentler Fedora sub-project." -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Apr 2 15:14:04 2006 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 10:14:04 -0500 Subject: example-tutorial/po de.po,1.7,1.8 In-Reply-To: <20060402161254.221652b1.info@thomasgier.de> References: <200604021125.k32BPbMO015113@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> <20060402085112.5250e8bd.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <20060402161254.221652b1.info@thomasgier.de> Message-ID: <20060402101404.d72f703a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Tom Gier , spake thus: > Oh. Yes. Right ... let's see ... hmmm ... am I supposed to change all > this me at home.net et.al. stuff in the line, add my name/ID > as "worker translator" and put something witty to the changelog? Yes, got it in one, Tom ;-) However, the changelog need not be witty. > Seem reasonable to me but I ask anyway - don't want to break things or > The Build [TM] Always a good idea. -- I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have every intention of dying an abuse! From stuart at elsn.org Sun Apr 2 15:43:06 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 16:43:06 +0100 Subject: Draft document on burning ISO images In-Reply-To: References: <1143898477.3802.804.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <986aa8a20604011414q18e55509yfde6c94541131071@mail.gmail.com> <1143930242.3783.15.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1143992586.16611.27.camel@Vigor11> On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 12:53 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >> I'm thinking that any Windows users thinking of installing Fedora are > >> more adept at burning ISO's that you give them credit for. > > > > Considering the flood of questions every release, I dont think so. > > Providing good detailed documentation is not a question of credit but > > guidance. > > I would have thought that one could say everything about burnings ISOs > in a few sentences; > it hardly seems to me to warrant a separate document. > > My view would be that a document on how _not_ to burn ISOs, > ie how to install Fedora without using CDs (or DVDs) > would be much more useful. Bear in mind that you need to boot the machine before you can select an installation source (or "method" as Anaconda calls them). Virtual machines can use image files as boot devices, but the supported boot options for a physical machine are PXE, disc, and bootable USB device. > I know there is a section in the Installation Guide > on Alternative Installation Methods, > but it strikes me as rather esoteric - > eg I would prefer to read the actual commands one has to give > if using PXEboot, for example. The IG covers all of the options and combinations, which makes it hard to present a linear set of instructions, although somebody is looking at revising these parts of the IG to make it simpler. Plenty of people clearly do want a simple set of steps, and various popular third-party sites offer installation tutorials. I'd be happy to accept help on doing something within Fedora to address this need. > I've had a surprising amount of trouble with the FC-5 CDs - > quite possibly due to my CD-burning hardware - > and this has led me to wonder if too much emphasis > is not put on CDs as installation medium. > > If you have only one machine, is it really worth burning a CD? > Many people have huge disks nowadays, > so if you have to download the ISOs, > isn't it just as simple (and more reliable, in my case at least) > to install from hard disk? > And if you have lots of machines, > isn't a USB drive as easy to use today as CDs? I'd personally recommend that people who have multiple machines and a bit of know-how setup a local mirror, and boot from PXE or a boot-only CD. We have a tutorial for mirrors, and the IG has an admonition that gently prods people toward it: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/mirror/ As you say, drives are now so big that you can easily store all of Fedora Core on a regular machine and use it as an installation and yum source. Indeed, every machine on your network if you like. USB boot is relatively new, and isn't yet as standard and reliable as CD drives, which are on pretty much every machine made in the last half-decade (apart from ultraportables). -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Sun Apr 2 15:56:00 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 16:56:00 +0100 Subject: Draft document on burning ISO images In-Reply-To: <1143988389.19590.174.camel@pmac.infradead.org> References: <1143898477.3802.804.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1143988389.19590.174.camel@pmac.infradead.org> Message-ID: <1143993360.16611.40.camel@Vigor11> On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 15:33 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 19:04 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/BurningDiscs > > > > This would be a very important document for non technical users > > attempting to start using Fedora. More content and editorial reviews > > would be helpful from the lurkers in this list. > > I think we'd do better to encourage them not to use the ISO images at > all; instead to do network installation where possible. You get to skip > the whole 'optical media are unreliable as hell and you need to do the > media check and still expect random failures' bit that way. There definitely seems to be a lot of posts about this (lots of cheap and nasty blanks ?), and the Media Check seems to confuse as much as it helps. I think that boot disc + network installation depends on having a good connection, though. Although many people in the UK have something labelled as "broadband", the standard plans that I've seen only have a 2Gb a month download limit before additional charges kick in, or less than 1Mbit bandwidth. Which is OK for updates, but make network installs less comfortable. I don't know enough about the situation in other countries to sensible comment there. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net Sun Apr 2 17:52:23 2006 From: edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net (Edward Haddock) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 07:52:23 -1000 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1143990081.2493.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143953335.4229.2.camel@edward.haddock.family> <1143970420.2598.8.camel@Vigor11> <1143990081.2493.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1144000344.3897.14.camel@edward.haddock.family> On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 11:01 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 10:33 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 18:48 -1000, Edward Haddock wrote: > > > Aloha, > > > I agree that signing emails is a good idea. In the doc I am writing > > > I have kept it in and am using the instructions on how to set it up from > > > the website. > > > > OK, thanks. I don't think it would be reasonable for it to be mandatory, > > but it's a good thing to do. > > > > As mentioned on the previous mail, I've done instructions for > > Thunderbird configuration. The Seahorse utility provides a graphical GPG > > tool that integrates with GNOME, if you'd like to offer an alternative > > to the command-line for users of that desktop. > > I have Seahorse installed too, and it's very convenient, especially with > the Nautilus context menu "Encrypt/Decrypt File" functions it provides. > > > BTW, it's common e-mail etiquette to post replies after the quoted mail, > > and some people in UNIX circles can be quite sharp about "top-posting", > > so watch out :). > > We try not to slap any wrists around here, but sooner or later *someone* > was bound to say something. :-) As you know, this is the "kindler, > gentler Fedora sub-project." Aloha, I am very new to all of this and am thankful that you folks share with me advice. I was not aware that bottom posting was the preferred way but will do so from now on. ;) On a different note, I have not installed FC5 yet. I am waiting for the nVidia stuff to get updated. I know there are ways around it but I want it all to go smoothly. I also need to figure a way to move my /home to a neutral location so I can recover all my files and such. As always this is a learning experience for me but one I enjoy. I am trying to work a way, in my head at the moment, of putting home on a separate partition so that upgrading the OS will not affect things as much. Any advice there would be also sincerely appreciated. As to the Documentation Guide I am working on I have an outline done for the major steps I saw from the Wiki. Now that I have that down, I am using the Wiki as a reference and rewriting the various steps. My goal, if I can work it this way, is to have many smaller pages linked from the main page. The main page will just be the steps and the links will be for more detailed instructions so that it serves for advanced and new users. I will be the first to say that I am not at all familiar with Doc Book so everything I am doing at this time is in text. I will try to learn Doc Book as I can. This is the outline so far: 1.) Subscribe to the fedora-docs-list, fedora-dsco-list and fedora-announce-list a.) Visit the pages and fill in the needed information b.) An automated email message will be sent c.) Follow the link or respond to the email 2.) Ensure that the proper tool chain installed a.) Package Management I.) up2date II.) Yum III.) RPM b.) Privacy Guard Software and Management Utilities. I.) GnuPG II.) Seahorse III.) KGpg c.) Email I.) Evolution II.) Thunderbird III.) Kmail IV.) Pine d.) Editors 1.) Vi II.) Emacs III.) OpenOffice.org Writer e.) Utilities I.) CVS II.) xmlto III.) Docbook files 3.) Generate a GPG key and setup your email client a.) Create a key Pair b.) Post public key at pgp.mit.edu c.) GPG key management utilities I.) KGPG II.) Seahorse III.) At the command line d.) Setup email client to work with GPG I.) Evolution II.) Thunderbird III.) Kmail IV.) Pine 4.) Create a Bugzilla account(Red Hat) a.) Fill out subscription page b.) Receive email c.) Respond to or follow link in email d.) Account done 5.) Create a Fedora Project Account (Not the same as a Bugzilla Account.) a.) Apply for an account I.) Fill out Subscription page II.) Receive an email III.) Respond to or follow link in email IV.) Account setup. b.) Request and Complete a Contributor License Agreement(CLA) I.) Form the accounts page click to have it emailed to the account on file. II.) Receive it and following the instructions in the email, fill it out, sign it with your GPG key and return it. III.) Get confirmation email. Done. c.) Download and save the client-side certificate. 6.) Post a self-introduction to the fedora-docs-list a.) Subject b.) Body c.) Include Public GPG Key Feedback as always is welcomed. Mahalo, Edward -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Apr 2 23:34:59 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 05:04:59 +0530 Subject: Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage) In-Reply-To: <1144000344.3897.14.camel@edward.haddock.family> References: <4429E4DF.9050700@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143742864.22716.124.camel@erato.phig.org> <442C9A10.2010800@savagereactor.co.uk> <1143775760.3972.4.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060330221503.40a8742a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143782889.5608.5.camel@edward.haddock.family> <20060331084540.97eafb48.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1143827737.22716.324.camel@erato.phig.org> <1143829651.2599.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143887370.8848.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1143953335.4229.2.camel@edward.haddock.family> <1143970420.2598.8.camel@Vigor11> <1143990081.2493.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1144000344.3897.14.camel@edward.haddock.family> Message-ID: <1144020899.3783.71.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> > sub-project." > Aloha, > I am very new to all of this and am thankful that you folks share with > me advice. I was not aware that bottom posting was the preferred way but > will do so from now on. ;) Yes and quote only as much as necessary. > On a different note, I have not installed FC5 yet. I am waiting for the > nVidia stuff to get updated. The latest kernel update fixes this issue. > > 1.) Subscribe to the fedora-docs-list, fedora-dsco-list and > fedora-announce-list > a.) Visit the pages and fill in the needed information > b.) An automated email message will be sent > c.) Follow the link or respond to the email > 2.) Ensure that the proper tool chain installed > a.) Package Management > I.) up2date As far as Fedora is concerned, up2date is dead. > II.) Yum > III.) RPM > b.) Privacy Guard Software and Management Utilities. > I.) GnuPG > II.) Seahorse > III.) KGpg > c.) Email > I.) Evolution > II.) Thunderbird > III.) Kmail > IV.) Pine Pine is non-free software. We dont cover that. > d.) Editors > 1.) Vi > II.) Emacs > III.) OpenOffice.org Writer In general we need to define the audience better. If its the non technical users, software that openoffice.org and Seahorse gets better priority compared to GnuPG and Vi. Document default applications first. Rest of the topic might need to be tuned depending on the content but looks good at initial glance. Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 3 19:00:43 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:00:43 -0700 Subject: our fp.org/.../Docs needs help Message-ID: <1144090843.29614.70.camel@erato.phig.org> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs Let's promote some documents to this page. Under the "Published Documentation" page. Add your favorites! Highlight any Wiki document that is worth having there. If it needs a technical or wordsmith edit, make a note next to it, e.g.: *[:Xorg/SomeDoc:How to uninstall evil drivers and make sure they are gone] (FINAL EDIT NEEDED) Or ... is it time to implement a little procedure and get some new stuff in the works? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WikiWorkflow - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 3 20:35:46 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 02:05:46 +0530 Subject: A few suggestions for the Istallation Guide -- made by the truly dumb In-Reply-To: <1144096132.2947.75.camel@CASE> References: <1144096132.2947.75.camel@CASE> Message-ID: <1144096546.24151.18.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 16:28 -0400, William Case wrote: > Hi; > > I am not ordinarily truly dumb; I have installed FC3 and FC4 several > times previously. But when I installed FC5 about a week ago I wasted > about 4 hours because my brain refused to work, I had forgotten some > basics, and frustration took over. Now I've been thinking that if I > could get my self into so much trouble what could happen with someone > truly new to Fedora. > > * After down loading very slowly using BitTorrent (my cable > company chokes BitTorrent downloads to about 33 KB/s), I went > directly to Documentation ==> Installation Guide. Suggestion: > As one of the first Items in the Table of Contents of the > Installation Guide replicate the Table of Contents (with links) > from the Download ==> Download and Installation Instructions. > * I had forgotten how to use SHA1SUM. 'man' that night seemed > particularly obtuse. There is a good example in the Download > and Installation Guide but it took me an hour or so before I > found it. Suggestion: Installation Guide should have a clear > link to the Download and Installation Guide or just copy the > relevant paragraph with perhaps a more detailed explanation for > how to use SHA1SUM with FC5 downloads. In both, the use of > SHA1SUM should be a separate ToC item. > * I only burn .iso images to CD once every 6 to 8 months (for each > new Fedora release). I tried using the method shown in 4.1 > Preparing CD or DVD media, from the Installation Guide. I tried > every logical combination of the example used and I couldn't get > it to work. Probably some examples would have helped. Is > --device= /dev/hdc or CD-R/W or what? Is image-file.iso generic > or is it FC5-i386-disc1.iso or what? In any case, I couldn't > make it work. So I decided to try X-CD-Roast. > * It took about another hour to find 4.3.2.3 Writing ISOs with > X-CD-Roast from the Red Hat Linux Getting Started Guide -- > linked through the Download and Installation Instructions. This > ISO burning Howto is excellent. > > As a separate suggestion, I have used DiskDruid to set up custom > partitions in the past, however, this time I wanted to do things > slightly different. A fuller, more detailed Help button as opposed to > Release Notes during the DiskDruid part of the installation would have > been very useful. > > In summary, all the info was there, it was just hard to find for a > newbie or someone suffering from a particularly bad brain cramp. Copying to fedora-docs list. Thanks for the feedback. Rahul From stuart at elsn.org Tue Apr 4 22:46:24 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 23:46:24 +0100 Subject: Minutes of FDSCo Meeting 4 April 2006 Message-ID: <1144190794.2651.20.camel@Vigor11> Attending Members: ------------------ Karsten Wade (quaid) Paul Frields (stickster) Gavin Henry (ghenry) Stuart Ellis (elliss) Also Participating: ------------------- Robert Jensen (appearing as EvilBob, and StillBob) Schedule of Tasks: ------------------ http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule Highlights: ----------- * Robert: A snapshot of the Wiki Release Notes will be taken tonight, and imported into CVS by Karsten in the next few days. This version of the Release Notes should be published on Friday 15th April, with translations completed by Thursday 14th. * Karsten: This Wiki page has links for tracking bugs that relate to the Release Notes: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/TrackingPage * Stuart: Updated versions of the Installation Guide and the Yum tutorial are in CVS. Full IRC Log: ------------- https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-dsco-list/2006-April/msg00000.html -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 5 13:52:35 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 06:52:35 -0700 Subject: taking wiki snapshot for release notes errata Message-ID: <1144245156.29614.225.camel@erato.phig.org> I'm taking the Wiki snapshot in about one hour from now ... say, 1500 UTC. Heads up if you want to get anything changed in the Wiki before then. Rules: * Your entry needs to follow the markup rules; I won't have time to fix the Wiki changes before the XML conversion, and it's more of a PITA to track down one-off missing markup http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WikiEditing#Marking_Technical_Terms * No worries, if you miss an important item, I'll have a chance to fix it manually in the XML tonight when I land in Boston, or possibly Thursday night. We're trying for a Web update for Friday (FUDCon Boston). - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jpmahowald at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 21:25:49 2006 From: jpmahowald at gmail.com (John Mahowald) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 16:25:49 -0500 Subject: Self Introduction: John Mahowald Message-ID: <3ea997540604051425i2b81d4edw23123ad0e39bfaff@mail.gmail.com> I'm John Mahowald, an undergraduate computer science student at the University of St Thomas, MN, USA. I do a bit of programming, particularly in Java. I've been using Linux since RHL in 2002. Recently I have done package reviews and sponsored packagers for Extras, as well as maintain a couple. fedorared on freenode IRC. I also am a community manager (Jman) at http://fedoraforum.org. Someday I may want to persue a way of importing some of the how tos there and polishing them up. For the docs project I am interested in DocBook-izing existing plain text documentation and working my way toward writing. I have done some decent writing but this would be my first real technical writing experience. As to editing, I want to do both grammar and technical. Stuff I would like to see documented more include package building tools, like plague and a how to for remastering anaconda install CDs. I also want to push the building packages guide along toward publish status. Finally, I'm interested in an updated kickstart guide. Overall I'm into documentation that increases the amount of available software for Fedora and the number of installed Fedora systems. gpg: pub 1024D/1F147068 2005-06-17 Key fingerprint = B000 232E 333F 08F6 CDDE 2E08 04FF 30BD 1F14 7068 uid John Mahowald sub 2048g/41405E3C 2005-06-17 From rm96490 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 6 17:22:00 2006 From: rm96490 at yahoo.com (URI MALKA) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 10:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hi In-Reply-To: <3ea997540604051425i2b81d4edw23123ad0e39bfaff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060406172200.603.qmail@web54001.mail.yahoo.com> My name is Uri and I wish to contribute to the development of Fedora Project. I am familiar with C, Perl. Any suggestion where to begin? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 17:23:52 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 13:23:52 -0400 Subject: Translation Project on the Wiki Message-ID: <1144344232.25354.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi all you wonderful translators, It was pointed out to me today that there was not a lot of content for the Translation Project on the fedoraproject.org wiki. I filled in a quick "sketch" page at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Translation If anyone would like to take up the cause of creating or migrating content there from the fedora.redhat.com site, I would be happy to assist with edits or anything else. Thanks for all the hard work you guys have put into translation. While out here at LinuxWorld, I've already heard a number of "oohs" and "aahs" about all the languages we have supported. Great job! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedoradocs at ddeutsch.org Thu Apr 6 17:32:33 2006 From: fedoradocs at ddeutsch.org (Debbie Deutsch) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 13:32:33 -0400 Subject: Hi In-Reply-To: <20060406172200.603.qmail@web54001.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060406172200.603.qmail@web54001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <443550B1.4000209@ddeutsch.org> URI MALKA wrote: > My name is Uri and I wish to contribute to the > development of Fedora Project. I am familiar with > C, Perl. > Any suggestion where to begin? > Please take a look at the Fedora Project wiki for a wide range of possible ways to contribute. What you are looking for is down near the bottom of the main page. http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraMain From hugo at devin.com.br Thu Apr 6 19:55:17 2006 From: hugo at devin.com.br (Hugo Cisneiros) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:55:17 -0300 Subject: Translation Project on the Wiki In-Reply-To: <1144344232.25354.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1144344232.25354.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <44357225.1040704@devin.com.br> Paul W. Frields wrote: > Hi all you wonderful translators, Hau! > It was pointed out to me today that there was not a lot of content for > the Translation Project on the fedoraproject.org wiki. I filled in a > quick "sketch" page at: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Translation > > If anyone would like to take up the cause of creating or migrating > content there from the fedora.redhat.com site, I would be happy to > assist with edits or anything else. Thanks for all the hard work you > guys have put into translation. While out here at LinuxWorld, I've > already heard a number of "oohs" and "aahs" about all the languages we > have supported. Great job! You can count on me Paul :) I'm finishing some business here because of a big event and will be available to the dirty work (hehe!) -- []'s Eitch http://www.devin.com.br/eitch/ "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." - Linus Torvalds From stuart at elsn.org Thu Apr 6 23:58:05 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:58:05 +0100 Subject: Self Introduction: John Mahowald In-Reply-To: <3ea997540604051425i2b81d4edw23123ad0e39bfaff@mail.gmail.com> References: <3ea997540604051425i2b81d4edw23123ad0e39bfaff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1144367885.2638.46.camel@Vigor11> On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 16:25 -0500, John Mahowald wrote: > I'm John Mahowald, an undergraduate computer science student at the > University of St Thomas, MN, USA. I do a bit of programming, > particularly in Java. I've been using Linux since RHL in 2002. > Recently I have done package reviews and sponsored packagers for > Extras, as well as maintain a couple. fedorared on freenode IRC. I > also am a community manager (Jman) at http://fedoraforum.org. Someday > I may want to persue a way of importing some of the how tos there and > polishing them up. Welcome to the project! > For the docs project I am interested in DocBook-izing existing plain > text documentation and working my way toward writing. I have done > some decent writing but this would be my first real technical writing > experience. As to editing, I want to do both grammar and technical. The Documentation Guide is a very good resource on both technology and writing style: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/documentation-guide/ One easy way to approach it is to check out the example-tutorial and a couple of the published documents from CVS, use them as a reference, and go back to the Guide as you need to. The Guide covers a lot of ground, and reading it cold may be a little overwhelming. You are welcome to post queries or a request for comments on a draft to this list at any time - feel free to experiment and ask for help as issues arise. > Stuff I would like to see documented more include package building > tools, like plague and a how to for remastering anaconda install CDs. > I also want to push the building packages guide along toward publish > status. Finally, I'm interested in an updated kickstart guide. Overall > I'm into documentation that increases the amount of available software > for Fedora and the number of installed Fedora systems. There's definitely a lot of interesting stuff around deployment and software management, so deciding where to start may be the most difficult challenge :). IMO, the key thing for pushing a document to edit and publication is that the text has to provide enough support for a user to perform whatever task the document focuses on. Once a document explains the basic task then it's easy enough to expand the coverage in subsequent versions - the first version doesn't have to be a comprehensive guide, or cover all aspects of a topic. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From aalam at redhat.com Fri Apr 7 00:55:21 2006 From: aalam at redhat.com (A S Alam) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 06:25:21 +0530 Subject: Translation Project on the Wiki In-Reply-To: <1144344232.25354.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1144344232.25354.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4435B879.6070405@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields ?? ?????: > Hi all you wonderful translators, > > It was pointed out to me today that there was not a lot of content for > the Translation Project on the fedoraproject.org wiki. I filled in a > quick "sketch" page at: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Translation > > If anyone would like to take up the cause of creating or migrating > content there from the fedora.redhat.com site, I would be happy to > assist with edits or anything else. Thanks for all the hard work you > guys have put into translation. While out here at LinuxWorld, I've > already heard a number of "oohs" and "aahs" about all the languages we > have supported. Great job! > > hi Paul, I started New page at following page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N This contains information regarding translation, but starting translation is better idea It contains entire content of fedora.redhat.com page. wait for suggestion. regards -- A S Alam join us at #fedora-l10n (freenode) "Either find a way or make one" From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 02:50:55 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 22:50:55 -0400 Subject: jargon-buster/po pt.po,NONE,1.1 In-Reply-To: <200604080219.k382JTdk004736@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> References: <200604080219.k382JTdk004736@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1144464655.2536.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 19:19 -0700, Jos? Nuno Coelho Sanarra Pires wrote: > Author: zepires > > Update of /cvs/docs/jargon-buster/po > In directory cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com:/tmp/cvs-serv4716 > > Added Files: > pt.po > Log Message: > Translated Jargon Buster into Portuguese Jose, this is fantastic. I am going to publish this tonight and thank you for your efforts in translating this. If you or an editor discovers any mistakes, please let me know as you fix them (I'll be watching commits as well) and I will be happy to republish. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 03:09:08 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 23:09:08 -0400 Subject: jargon-buster/po pt.po,NONE,1.1 In-Reply-To: <1144464655.2536.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200604080219.k382JTdk004736@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> <1144464655.2536.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1144465748.2536.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 22:50 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 19:19 -0700, Jos? Nuno Coelho Sanarra Pires wrote: > > Author: zepires > > > > Update of /cvs/docs/jargon-buster/po > > In directory cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com:/tmp/cvs-serv4716 > > > > Added Files: > > pt.po > > Log Message: > > Translated Jargon Buster into Portuguese > > Jose, this is fantastic. I am going to publish this tonight and thank > you for your efforts in translating this. If you or an editor discovers > any mistakes, please let me know as you fix them (I'll be watching > commits as well) and I will be happy to republish. Oops! Jose, I found that there were some missing strings. I think this is my fault, and that I didn't update the POT file along with the en_US version of the document. It's been committed now if you get a chance to look at it. Thanks again. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Apr 8 03:09:24 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:09:24 -0700 Subject: Hi In-Reply-To: <20060406172200.603.qmail@web54001.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060406172200.603.qmail@web54001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1144465764.3419.2.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-04-06 at 10:22 -0700, URI MALKA wrote: > My name is Uri and I wish to contribute to the > development of Fedora Project. I am familiar with > C, Perl. > Any suggestion where to begin? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HelpWanted Someone said today, every project can use help. Pick a project and ask, or look around there for what interests you. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tombo at adamantio.net Tue Apr 11 21:59:49 2006 From: tombo at adamantio.net (Francesco Tombolini) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 23:59:49 +0200 Subject: Test docs builds give strange results Message-ID: <200604112359.56287.tombo@adamantio.net> Hi I have finished to update translation-quickstart-guide it.po. I have tried to test my build, with: $ make html-it but this generate html documents with contents half in italian language and half in english. I then try to make a test build of another doc that I'm working on (eg. selinux-faq) but the situation is the same. Some ->fully translated<- italian strings appear in english language, and some other in the same document, appear in their right place. Have you ever had a problem like this? I'm currently using a FC5 workstation with these packages installed: gnome-doc-utils.noarch xmlto.i386 make.i386 -- Francesco Tombolini Key fingerprint = EDA9 7504 AA93 CEFC 5990 1356 8584 6B05 F140 5F73 http://www.adamantio.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stuart at elsn.org Wed Apr 12 00:04:03 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 01:04:03 +0100 Subject: Minutes of FDSCo Meeting 11th April 2006 Message-ID: <1144800243.7433.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Attending Members: ------------------ Karsten Wade (quaid) Paul Frields (stickster) Gavin Henry (ghenry) Stuart Ellis (elliss_athome) Also Participating: ------------------- Robert Jensen (appearing as BobJensen, and EvilBob) Elliot Lee (Sopwith) Schedule of Tasks: ------------------ http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule Highlights: ----------- Paul: Updates will be committed to CVS to fix package building. Paul: The Documentation Guide will be rewritten. The proposed structure for the new Documentation Guide will be submitted to the mailing list for comments. The structure will then be created within the Wiki. Karsten: The Wiki to Docbook process has been improved, but this process is not yet fully automated. Robert will convene a meeting to progress this. Karsten: The Classpath maintainer is interested in working with the FDP to resolve the current issues with running Apache FOP on Free Java. Collaboration will probably be done through the forthcoming DevNation project infrastructure. Elliot: Migration of Translation infrastructure is currently blocked by the requirement to migrate the current translations Web application, and merge it's accounts system with the main Fedora accounts system. Full IRC Log: ------------- https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-dsco-list/2006-April/msg00001.html -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 13:15:34 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:15:34 -0400 Subject: Test docs builds give strange results In-Reply-To: <200604112359.56287.tombo@adamantio.net> References: <200604112359.56287.tombo@adamantio.net> Message-ID: <1144847734.3359.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-04-11 at 23:59 +0200, Francesco Tombolini wrote: > Hi > I have finished to update translation-quickstart-guide it.po. > I have tried to test my build, with: > $ make html-it > but this generate html documents with contents half in italian language and > half in english. > I then try to make a test build of another doc that I'm working on (eg. > selinux-faq) but the situation is the same. > Some ->fully translated<- italian strings appear in english language, and some > other in the same document, appear in their right place. > Have you ever had a problem like this? > > I'm currently using a FC5 workstation with these packages installed: > gnome-doc-utils.noarch > xmlto.i386 > make.i386 Ciao Francesco, Yes, it's true, there are some problems with the translation builds. I think it has something to do with entities, since the paragraphs that have problems always have a general entity (e.g. "&FP;") involved. I am looking into the problem and will let the list know when I've fixed it, or at least figured out the real problem. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 13:29:31 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:29:31 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: pup in tools category?] Message-ID: <1144848571.3359.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> To all Docsters, I know we have some lurkers out there who are looking to cut their teeth on new documents. The attached message is a very short tutorial that Thomas Chung drafted on the Wiki. It needs some polishing and relocation, but would be a good chance for someone to practice their editorial skills by putting this in better grammatical and syntactical shape. Would one of our "new folks" like to step up and help? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Thomas Chung" Subject: Fwd: pup in tools category? Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:04:05 -0700 Size: 1982 URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From steven.pierce at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 19:01:32 2006 From: steven.pierce at gmail.com (Steven Pierce) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:01:32 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: pup in tools category?] In-Reply-To: <1144848571.3359.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1144848571.3359.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6e0cf1cc0604121201p402dc044g9005386ea9b900a6@mail.gmail.com> Paul, Sure I will give it a try.. Let me know how to get to it. Steven Pierce On 4/12/06, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > To all Docsters, > > I know we have some lurkers out there who are looking to cut their teeth > on new documents. The attached message is a very short tutorial that > Thomas Chung drafted on the Wiki. It needs some polishing and > relocation, but would be a good chance for someone to practice their > editorial skills by putting this in better grammatical and syntactical > shape. Would one of our "new folks" like to step up and help? > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Thomas Chung" > To: "Karsten Wade" , "Paul W. Frields" < > stickster at gmail.com> > Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:04:05 -0700 > Subject: Fwd: pup in tools category? > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Rahul Sundaram > Date: Apr 11, 2006 9:49 PM > Subject: Re: pup in tools category? > To: Thomas Chung > Cc: Patrick Barnes > > > On Tue, 2006-04-11 at 21:30 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote: > > Patrick and Rahul, > > > > Shall I move my pup tutorial[1] to under tools[2] category? > > > > [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung/pup > > [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tools > > -- > > That document is pretty good. Consider submitting it to the Fedora Docs > Project. Short task based documents like these are needed there. > > Rahul > > Hi Kasten and Paul, > Per Rahul's suggestion, I would like to submit my personoal tutorial > to Fedora Docs Project. > Sorry, if this is not the right way to submit the document. :) > Regards, > -- > Thomas Chung > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQBEPQC6rNvJN70RNxcRAj+QAKC25g7LwyRz4ao8lltpc8t46pI5GwCfanzb > 0hQPZFIMjrCXQ58CmSOBa58= > =vWrU > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 20:47:12 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:47:12 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: pup in tools category?] In-Reply-To: <6e0cf1cc0604121201p402dc044g9005386ea9b900a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1144848571.3359.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6e0cf1cc0604121201p402dc044g9005386ea9b900a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1144874832.816.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 12:01 -0700, Steven Pierce wrote: > Paul, > > Sure I will give it a try.. Let me know how to get to it. > > Steven Pierce You will need wiki editing access, so if you start here, we should be able to get you in the system in fairly short order: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WikiEditing There are three basic steps, (1) make a wiki account, (2) make a Fedora account and complete the CLA, and (3) get someone to add you to the wiki EditGroup. Steps 1 and 3 are almost self-explanatory; step 2 looks like someone has written a very nice step-by-step (with "Next" links at the bottom) starting at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem You should be able to follow the steps, and then you can use the link in the previous post to visit the Wiki page to edit it "live." Don't be afraid of making mistakes or changes. Other people will see the changes and fix anything they think is wrong. Jump in and have fun! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From raven at pmail.pl Thu Apr 13 11:46:40 2006 From: raven at pmail.pl (=?UTF-8?B?IlBpb3RyIFwiUmF2ZW5cIiBEcsSFZyI=?=) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:46:40 +0200 Subject: Self-Introduction: Piotr =?utf-8?b?RHLEhWc=?= Message-ID: <443E3A20.7060906@pmail.pl> Full name: Piotr Dr?g Location: Lublin, Poland Student of high school Goals: Translate Fedora documentation to Polish language Qualifications: one year of maintaining and improving Polish Fedora translations GPG Key ID and Fingerprint: pub 1024D/4D0CEAA9 2006-04-12 Key fingerprint = E78F 396C 3E30 52C7 703D FFA4 8C10 6C68 4D0C EAA9 uid Piotr Dr?g sub 1024g/EBD681FE 2006-04-12 -- Piotr "Raven" Dr?g http://www.fedora.pl/ From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 14 16:26:05 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 09:26:05 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Piotr =?iso-8859-2?q?Dr=B1g?= In-Reply-To: <443E3A20.7060906@pmail.pl> References: <443E3A20.7060906@pmail.pl> Message-ID: <1145031965.2465.14.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 13:46 +0200, "Piotr \"Raven\" Dr?g" wrote: > Full name: Piotr Dr?g > Location: Lublin, Poland > Student of high school > Goals: Translate Fedora documentation to Polish language > Qualifications: one year of maintaining and improving Polish Fedora > translations Welcome Raven, I'm just now approving your CVS access. Let us know if you have any questions, and happy translating! - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fitzsim at redhat.com Fri Apr 14 19:52:48 2006 From: fitzsim at redhat.com (Thomas Fitzsimmons) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:52:48 -0400 Subject: Self-Introduction: Thomas Fitzsimmons Message-ID: <443FFD90.30107@redhat.com> Hi, I work at Red Hat on GCJ and GNU Classpath. I maintain java-gcj-compat and jpackage-utils in Fedora Core. I'd like to fix a bug in this document: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NativeJava and contribute to other GCJ-related Fedora documentation. Tom From kwade at redhat.com Sat Apr 15 00:35:06 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:35:06 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Thomas Fitzsimmons In-Reply-To: <443FFD90.30107@redhat.com> References: <443FFD90.30107@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145061306.2465.66.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 15:52 -0400, Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: > Hi, > > I work at Red Hat on GCJ and GNU Classpath. I maintain java-gcj-compat > and jpackage-utils in Fedora Core. Hey, Tom, welcome. > I'd like to fix a bug in this document: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NativeJava > > and contribute to other GCJ-related Fedora documentation. For the Wiki, have you signed you CLA? If/when you do, what is your WikiName (TomFitzsimmons, ThomasFitzsimmons, or?) That's all that you need to get in the EditGroup. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fitzsim at redhat.com Sat Apr 15 03:32:04 2006 From: fitzsim at redhat.com (Thomas Fitzsimmons) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:32:04 -0400 Subject: Self-Introduction: Thomas Fitzsimmons In-Reply-To: <1145061306.2465.66.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <443FFD90.30107@redhat.com> <1145061306.2465.66.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <44406934.1080907@redhat.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 15:52 -0400, Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I work at Red Hat on GCJ and GNU Classpath. I maintain java-gcj-compat >> and jpackage-utils in Fedora Core. >> > > Hey, Tom, welcome. > > >> I'd like to fix a bug in this document: >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NativeJava >> >> and contribute to other GCJ-related Fedora documentation. >> > > For the Wiki, have you signed you CLA? If/when you do, what is your > WikiName (TomFitzsimmons, ThomasFitzsimmons, or?) That's all that you > need to get in the EditGroup. > Yes, I've signed the CLA. My WikiName is ThomasFitzsimmons. Tom From info at thomasgier.de Sat Apr 15 12:54:02 2006 From: info at thomasgier.de (Thomas Gier) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 14:54:02 +0200 Subject: OT: emacs and po-mode Message-ID: <20060415145402.675faadf.info@thomasgier.de> Hi, I hope someone uses Emacs' po-mode. I'm having trouble with masquerading of special characters like "\". Backslashes are used for line breaks in no-wrap content ("\n") and Emacs' behaviour is especially annoing in this context. If you open a po file in Emacs you get "\\n" for every original "\n", the next session results in "\\\\n", the on after that in "\\\\\\n" and so on. It's a FC5 system with Emacs 21.4.1 Any ideas? Regards, Tom From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Apr 16 00:03:08 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 19:03:08 -0500 Subject: Self-Introduction: Thomas Fitzsimmons In-Reply-To: <44406934.1080907@redhat.com> References: <443FFD90.30107@redhat.com> <1145061306.2465.66.camel@erato.phig.org> <44406934.1080907@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200604151903.12045.nman64@n-man.com> On Friday 14 April 2006 22:32, Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: > > Yes, I've signed the CLA. My WikiName is ThomasFitzsimmons. > > Tom I've added you to the EditGroup. You should be able to make changes on the wiki now. :-) -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 14:46:35 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:16:35 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: pup in tools category?] In-Reply-To: <6e0cf1cc0604121201p402dc044g9005386ea9b900a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1144848571.3359.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6e0cf1cc0604121201p402dc044g9005386ea9b900a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145371595.349.124.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 12:01 -0700, Steven Pierce wrote: > Paul, > > Sure I will give it a try.. Let me know how to get to it. > > Steven Pierce Steven Pierce, Are you working on this? Do you need any help? What need is someone to do a editorial review of http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung/pup and then convert the document into DocBook XML, import and maintain revisions in our CVS. Rahul From steven.pierce at gmail.com Wed Apr 19 14:03:33 2006 From: steven.pierce at gmail.com (Steven Pierce) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:03:33 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: pup in tools category?] In-Reply-To: <1145371595.349.124.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1144848571.3359.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6e0cf1cc0604121201p402dc044g9005386ea9b900a6@mail.gmail.com> <1145371595.349.124.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <6e0cf1cc0604190703x7a77ba6fr14b6de92b384f131@mail.gmail.com> Rahul, Sorry, no I have not been working on this. I have not been able to get a wiki account to start working. I was going to try to get one set up on Thursday when I am off work. Steven On 4/18/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 12:01 -0700, Steven Pierce wrote: > > Paul, > > > > Sure I will give it a try.. Let me know how to get to it. > > > > Steven Pierce > > Steven Pierce, > > Are you working on this? Do you need any help? What need is someone to > do a editorial review of http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung/pup > and then convert the document into DocBook XML, import and maintain > revisions in our CVS. > > Rahul > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 11:38:30 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 07:38:30 -0400 Subject: Content for Plone Message-ID: <1145533110.8360.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi all Docsters, One of the issues which arose in the last Fedora Project Board meeting was the steady (rising?) number of complaints about how many account system requirements there are for new contributors. We already know that having no single sign-on capability makes the process harder than it needs to be; this is already under discussion, so, since we Docs folks can't solve that problem, let's talk about the problems we *can* solve. * Some new contributors are not familiar with GPG or SSH. * The account system has a number of steps and an interface that is not particularly warm and friendly for newcomers. * The wiki pages speak to the requirements but do not give concrete (and hopefully foolproof) command line steps for making things Just Work. * In many cases they link outbound to other pages for what is supposed to be more information, but which is woefully inadequate. The fact that we have so many people putting content on the wiki is *fantastic*, but for canonical docs like "setting up a Fedora account," we need simple, step-by-step, procedural guides that don't send people on a wild goose chase around the wiki. We have a number of people who have taken time and effort to come to us with offers of help, only to find that juts getting to the point where they can contribute is an enormous time sink! This is just unacceptable IMHO, and I hope that you share this opinion -- especially since we are the folks who should be making this easy. As a Board member, I'm coming to the Docs Project to ask for help in getting content to the new Plone CMS *before* it goes live. The Plone CMS (refer to http://fpserv.fedoraproject.org/ if you have no idea what I'm talking about) will, one day Real Soon Now, supplant or overarch the wiki. We want the launch of the Plone CMS to *lower the barriers* for folks. We want to get Docs support to identify and push this content ASAP. As a member of the Docs Project, I want to get people excited about a chance for us to kickstart the CMS and get some additional project visibility. This idea of "lowering barriers" is nothing new for Docs -- it's something we've discussed often in Docs; something we've tried hard to do with our toolchain, our attitudes, and this very list; and something we can now exemplify in the community. I think it will also energize some of our newcomers and hopefully bring in other fresh faces (and hands). 1. Who wants to take on the Account Setup Guide? Keep in mind you won't have to do an awful lot of writing; it's mostly just collecting written bits from the wiki, expanding them where needed, and making sure everything flows nicely for an absolute newcomer. 2. How can we make our toolchain do the majority of the work for the CMS, like publishing and such? This is a more subtle question that probably needs some batting around, and will require coordination with Websites. Seth Vidal and I will help connect these dots, but folks here are intimate with our toolchain and we should be prepared to come to the table with some answers. 3. It might be a good idea for us to start thinking about what docs content is "faster-evolving" than we can or should keep up with in CVS. Enough of my yakkin'. Whaddaya say? Let's boogie. Input, please, and remember to use long descriptive sentences where possible for those of us who are new at this game! That's speaking not just for newcomers, but for myself as well, a Bear of Very Little Brain. :-) The foregoing is a brain dump from about midnight last night, and I was fading fast, so if you see something scatterbrained, please point it out in the interest of generating more sane discussion. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 15:03:27 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:03:27 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: pup in tools category?] In-Reply-To: <6e0cf1cc0604190703x7a77ba6fr14b6de92b384f131@mail.gmail.com> References: <1144848571.3359.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6e0cf1cc0604121201p402dc044g9005386ea9b900a6@mail.gmail.com> <1145371595.349.124.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <6e0cf1cc0604190703x7a77ba6fr14b6de92b384f131@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145545407.25148.190.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 07:03 -0700, Steven Pierce wrote: > > Rahul, > > Sorry, no I have not been working on this. I have not been able to > get a wiki account > to start working. I was going to try to get one set up on Thursday > when I am off work. Stop by #fedora-docs and/or #fedora-websites for help if you run into any problems. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 15:12:50 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:12:50 -0700 Subject: Content for Plone In-Reply-To: <1145533110.8360.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145533110.8360.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145545971.25148.199.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 07:38 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Hi all Docsters, > 1. Who wants to take on the Account Setup Guide? Keep in mind you > won't have to do an awful lot of writing; it's mostly just collecting > written bits from the wiki, expanding them where needed, and making sure > everything flows nicely for an absolute newcomer. Edward Haddock started this already, from the angle of just trying to understand the sign-up process: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-April/msg00023.html Edward -- if you want to write that up in plain text, OO.org doc, or whatever you are most comfortable with, another of us can convert it to XML and make it build with our toolchain. Then you'd have a good, XML reference source to continue work from. We can also generate a barebones outline in XML, with chapters sparsely populated with content ready to fill out, based on your outline. Just two moving-forward ideas. :) > 2. How can we make our toolchain do the majority of the work for the > CMS, like publishing and such? This is a more subtle question that > probably needs some batting around, and will require coordination with > Websites. Seth Vidal and I will help connect these dots, but folks here > are intimate with our toolchain and we should be prepared to come to the > table with some answers. http://autobuild.org/ ? Perhaps Elliot and Tommy's look at DIY on webtest.fedora might make the argument for Autobuild stronger or ...? > 3. It might be a good idea for us to start thinking about what docs > content is "faster-evolving" than we can or should keep up with in CVS. I'd like to see the Wiki graduate content into the CMS, just as it graduates contributors from the lower-level tools to the upper-level tools. This models the growing pattern we all have as writers, from basic content to more advanced content. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 00:04:29 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:04:29 -0400 Subject: Content for Plone In-Reply-To: <1145545971.25148.199.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1145533110.8360.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145545971.25148.199.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1145577869.2559.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 08:12 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 07:38 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Hi all Docsters, > > > 1. Who wants to take on the Account Setup Guide? Keep in mind you > > won't have to do an awful lot of writing; it's mostly just collecting > > written bits from the wiki, expanding them where needed, and making sure > > everything flows nicely for an absolute newcomer. > > Edward Haddock started this already, from the angle of just trying to > understand the sign-up process: > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-April/msg00023.html Excellent! Edward, if you're out there, my canvassing was not meant as a slight, I simply forgot this was on the cooker already. Thanks for stepping up to do this and -- if you have a chance -- let us know how you're doing, and whether you could use any help. > Edward -- if you want to write that up in plain text, OO.org doc, or > whatever you are most comfortable with, another of us can convert it to > XML and make it build with our toolchain. Then you'd have a good, XML > reference source to continue work from. We can also generate a > barebones outline in XML, with chapters sparsely populated with content > ready to fill out, based on your outline. Yeah, what he said! > Just two moving-forward ideas. :) > > > 2. How can we make our toolchain do the majority of the work for the > > CMS, like publishing and such? This is a more subtle question that > > probably needs some batting around, and will require coordination with > > Websites. Seth Vidal and I will help connect these dots, but folks here > > are intimate with our toolchain and we should be prepared to come to the > > table with some answers. > > http://autobuild.org/ ? > > Perhaps Elliot and Tommy's look at DIY on webtest.fedora might make the > argument for Autobuild stronger or ...? I don't have any experience with (or, frankly -- other than looking through some of the intro/FAQ/doc pages -- knowledge of) this tool. But certainly anything that would allow us to get our doc-building fingers into all sort of presentation-layer pies is a Great Idea. > > 3. It might be a good idea for us to start thinking about what docs > > content is "faster-evolving" than we can or should keep up with in CVS. > > I'd like to see the Wiki graduate content into the CMS, just as it > graduates contributors from the lower-level tools to the upper-level > tools. This models the growing pattern we all have as writers, from > basic content to more advanced content. I couldn't agree more. The interesting thing about the CMS is that it combines the easy idea-to-posting capability of a Wiki with some of the security and workflow aspects that would help us ensure quality documentation for all. I am just getting started using it so I'm sure other people have a far better idea about how it all works. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sfolkwil at redhat.com Fri Apr 21 13:33:31 2006 From: sfolkwil at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:33:31 -0400 Subject: Content for Plone In-Reply-To: <1145533110.8360.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145533110.8360.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060421133331.GA21336@xander.rdu.redhat.com> Hi, The move to Plone, and the desire to simply the Docs process both sound very exciting. This email is the first I've heard of the move, so please excuse me if I missed something (likely). My basic questions are: 1) does everyone need to create a new account on Plone (i just did), and 2) how are we porting the content? I would love to help in any way I can. I was covering the kernel release notes beat, but things have died down since the release. One thing that is hard for me to do is to put in the time to figure out what needs to be done. But given an assignment, I can find the time to make it happen. I also worry that I might be doing something someone else is already working on. Just some comments from a contributor... Thanks, Sam On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 07:38:30AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Hi all Docsters, > > One of the issues which arose in the last Fedora Project Board meeting > was the steady (rising?) number of complaints about how many account > system requirements there are for new contributors. We already know > that having no single sign-on capability makes the process harder than > it needs to be; this is already under discussion, so, since we Docs > folks can't solve that problem, let's talk about the problems we *can* > solve. > > * Some new contributors are not familiar with GPG or SSH. > > * The account system has a number of steps and an interface that is not > particularly warm and friendly for newcomers. > > * The wiki pages speak to the requirements but do not give concrete (and > hopefully foolproof) command line steps for making things Just Work. > > * In many cases they link outbound to other pages for what is supposed > to be more information, but which is woefully inadequate. > > The fact that we have so many people putting content on the wiki is > *fantastic*, but for canonical docs like "setting up a Fedora account," > we need simple, step-by-step, procedural guides that don't send people > on a wild goose chase around the wiki. We have a number of people who > have taken time and effort to come to us with offers of help, only to > find that juts getting to the point where they can contribute is an > enormous time sink! This is just unacceptable IMHO, and I hope that you > share this opinion -- especially since we are the folks who should be > making this easy. > > As a Board member, I'm coming to the Docs Project to ask for help in > getting content to the new Plone CMS *before* it goes live. The Plone > CMS (refer to http://fpserv.fedoraproject.org/ if you have no idea what > I'm talking about) will, one day Real Soon Now, supplant or overarch the > wiki. We want the launch of the Plone CMS to *lower the barriers* for > folks. We want to get Docs support to identify and push this content > ASAP. > > As a member of the Docs Project, I want to get people excited about a > chance for us to kickstart the CMS and get some additional project > visibility. This idea of "lowering barriers" is nothing new for Docs -- > it's something we've discussed often in Docs; something we've tried hard > to do with our toolchain, our attitudes, and this very list; and > something we can now exemplify in the community. I think it will also > energize some of our newcomers and hopefully bring in other fresh faces > (and hands). > > 1. Who wants to take on the Account Setup Guide? Keep in mind you > won't have to do an awful lot of writing; it's mostly just collecting > written bits from the wiki, expanding them where needed, and making sure > everything flows nicely for an absolute newcomer. > > 2. How can we make our toolchain do the majority of the work for the > CMS, like publishing and such? This is a more subtle question that > probably needs some batting around, and will require coordination with > Websites. Seth Vidal and I will help connect these dots, but folks here > are intimate with our toolchain and we should be prepared to come to the > table with some answers. > > 3. It might be a good idea for us to start thinking about what docs > content is "faster-evolving" than we can or should keep up with in CVS. > > Enough of my yakkin'. Whaddaya say? Let's boogie. > > Input, please, and remember to use long descriptive sentences where > possible for those of us who are new at this game! That's speaking not > just for newcomers, but for myself as well, a Bear of Very Little > Brain. :-) The foregoing is a brain dump from about midnight last > night, and I was fading fast, so if you see something scatterbrained, > please point it out in the interest of generating more sane discussion. > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- ? Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE ? Red Hat Global Support Services ? Phone: 919/754-4558 ? Cell: 919/943-9623 ? Fax: 919/754-3708 ? GPG ID: 1B0D46BA From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 14:16:55 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:16:55 -0400 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 Message-ID: <1145629015.2874.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Karsten and I have thrown a couple ideas around about the new Documentation Guide recently. Here's a very broad "outline" of the new guide. I think this may be a little too big for just one or two people to tackle, so we should wikiize this is in the Docs/Drafts namespace and let everyone work through it there. When we're done we can import it and mark it up properly, since that is a very trivial task compared to drafting the darn thing. Introduction Project +- History (tentative) +- Joining +- Communication +- Steering Tools +- Overview +- DocBook XML +- CVS +- Emacs +- Vim +- Wiki +- OpenOffice.org +- XML Tools Writing +- Organization +- Rules +- Style Editing +- Tagging +- Content Publishing +- General +- Web (f.r.c, Plone, et al.) +- RPM Packages Comments and sleeve-roller-uppers welcome. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 21 17:31:27 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:31:27 -0700 Subject: Documentation Guide v2 In-Reply-To: <1145629015.2874.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145629015.2874.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145640688.25148.321.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 10:16 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Karsten and I have thrown a couple ideas around about the new > Documentation Guide recently. Think of this guide as a starting point for material you may need for people working with the same XML toolchain. Do you have a University full of researchers? Developers who could write in XML? Now, in addition to a full-featured toolchain, Fedora Documentation is updating The Guide. Much of the content is applicable to the toolchain for general content writing purposes, and for projects far outside of Fedora and maybe back in your other life's interests/distractions/work. :) These are reasons to take a part of the guide that interests you and start working on it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net Fri Apr 21 22:34:18 2006 From: edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net (Edward Haddock) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:34:18 -1000 Subject: Content for Plone In-Reply-To: <1145545971.25148.199.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1145533110.8360.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145545971.25148.199.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1145658859.4004.1.camel@edward.haddock.family> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 08:12 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 07:38 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Hi all Docsters, > > > 1. Who wants to take on the Account Setup Guide? Keep in mind you > > won't have to do an awful lot of writing; it's mostly just collecting > > written bits from the wiki, expanding them where needed, and making sure > > everything flows nicely for an absolute newcomer. > > Edward Haddock started this already, from the angle of just trying to > understand the sign-up process: > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-April/msg00023.html > > Edward -- if you want to write that up in plain text, OO.org doc, or > whatever you are most comfortable with, another of us can convert it to > XML and make it build with our toolchain. Then you'd have a good, XML > reference source to continue work from. We can also generate a > barebones outline in XML, with chapters sparsely populated with content > ready to fill out, based on your outline. Paul, Karsten, I will continue to try and develop some kind of flow to it. I got some of the first parts worked out but I have been swamped at work lately. I got promoted and ma now the boss. :D In any case, I will keep on with it as best I can and post what I come up with here. > Just two moving-forward ideas. :) > > > 2. How can we make our toolchain do the majority of the work for the > > CMS, like publishing and such? This is a more subtle question that > > probably needs some batting around, and will require coordination with > > Websites. Seth Vidal and I will help connect these dots, but folks here > > are intimate with our toolchain and we should be prepared to come to the > > table with some answers. > > http://autobuild.org/ ? > > Perhaps Elliot and Tommy's look at DIY on webtest.fedora might make the > argument for Autobuild stronger or ...? > > > 3. It might be a good idea for us to start thinking about what docs > > content is "faster-evolving" than we can or should keep up with in CVS. > > I'd like to see the Wiki graduate content into the CMS, just as it > graduates contributors from the lower-level tools to the upper-level > tools. This models the growing pattern we all have as writers, from > basic content to more advanced content. > > - Karsten > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net Fri Apr 21 23:04:22 2006 From: edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net (Edward Haddock) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:04:22 -1000 Subject: Content for Plone In-Reply-To: <1145577869.2559.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145533110.8360.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145545971.25148.199.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145577869.2559.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145660663.4004.8.camel@edward.haddock.family> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 20:04 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 08:12 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 07:38 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > Hi all Docsters, > > > > > 1. Who wants to take on the Account Setup Guide? Keep in mind you > > > won't have to do an awful lot of writing; it's mostly just collecting > > > written bits from the wiki, expanding them where needed, and making sure > > > everything flows nicely for an absolute newcomer. > > > > Edward Haddock started this already, from the angle of just trying to > > understand the sign-up process: > > > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-April/msg00023.html > > Excellent! Edward, if you're out there, my canvassing was not meant as > a slight, I simply forgot this was on the cooker already. Thanks for > stepping up to do this and -- if you have a chance -- let us know how > you're doing, and whether you could use any help. > Paul, No worries! Aloha all the same. :) I have been working on it a little. I will paste here and you can look at it. As I said though, life has got real busy lately. Also I am still on FC4 and haven't quite got the plan finished to move to FC5. I only have the first section fleshed out a little. Ed " 1.) The first step in joining the Fedora Documentation Project is to join the community and engage in the discussion. Subscribe to the fedora-docs-list, fedora-dsco-list and fedora-announce-list to keep up to date and informed about the project and Fedora in general. The links can be found at https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list, http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list and https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list. After visiting the pages and filling in the needed information an automated email message will be sent. Choose to follow the link or respond to the email as outlined in the instructions contained in the emails. Please note that to be part of the Fedora Documentation Project you have to at a minimum join the fedora-docs-list. Next, ensure that the proper tool chain installed. The first tools that should be installed are Yum and/or up2date. These Software Management Utilities will ensure that all software packages are current and aid in installing those not already installed. Both are installed by default on Fedora Core 4 but this can be checked using rpm. [xyz at xyz ~]$ rpm -qa up2date up2date-4.4.23-4 [xyz at xyz ~]$ rpm -qa yum yum-2.4.1-1.fc Either package will work for managing software packages. After that, setup Privacy Guard Software and utilities to manage the Gpg keys. Use GPG to identify yourself and authenticate your communications, even with people you don't know. GPG allows anyone reading a GPG-signed email to verify its authorship. In other words, GPG allows someone to be reasonably certain that communications signed by you actually come from you. GPG is useful because it helps prevent mischievous third parties from polluting code or conversations by masquerading as other entities. To participate in any part of the Fedora Project, - you should have a GPG key pair, and - your public key must be available on pgp.mit.edu, a well-known public keyserver. Outline: 1.) Subscribe to the fedora-docs-list, fedora-dsco-list and fedora-announce-list a.) Visit the pages and filling in the needed information b.) An automated email message will be sent c.) Follow the link or respond to the email as outlined in the instructions contained in the email 2.) Ensure that the proper tool chain installed a.) Package Management I.) up2date II.) Yum III.) RPM b.) Privacy Guard Software and Management Utilities. I.) GnuPG II.) Seahorse III.) KGpg c.) Email I.) Evolution II.) Thunderbird III.) Kmail IV.) Pine d.) Editors 1.) Vi II.) Emacs III.) OpenOffice.org Writer e.) Utilities I.) CVS II.) xmlto III.) Docbook files 3.) Generate a GPG key and setup your email client a.) Create a key Pair b.) Post public key at pgp.mit.edu c.) GPG key management utilities I.) KGPG II.) Seahorse III.) At the command line d.) Setup email client to work with GPG I.) Evolution II.) Thunderbird III.) Kmail IV.) Pine 4.) Create a Bugzilla account(Red Hat) a.) Fill out subscription page b.) Receive email c.) Respond to or follow link in email d.) Account done 5.) Create a Fedora Project Account (Not the same as a Bugzilla Account.) a.) Apply for an account I.) Fill out Subscription page II.) Receive an email III.) Respond to or follow link in email IV.) Account setup. b.) Request and Complete a Contributor License Agreement(CLA) I.) Form the accounts page click to have it emailed to the account on file. II.) Receive it and following the instructions in the email, fill it out, sign it with your GPG key and return it. III.) Get confirmation email. Done. c.) Download and save the client-side certificate. 6.) Post a self-introduction to the fedora-docs-list a.) Subject b.) Body c.) Include Public GPG Key " > > Edward -- if you want to write that up in plain text, OO.org doc, or > > whatever you are most comfortable with, another of us can convert it to > > XML and make it build with our toolchain. Then you'd have a good, XML > > reference source to continue work from. We can also generate a > > barebones outline in XML, with chapters sparsely populated with content > > ready to fill out, based on your outline. > > Yeah, what he said! > > > Just two moving-forward ideas. :) > > > > > 2. How can we make our toolchain do the majority of the work for the > > > CMS, like publishing and such? This is a more subtle question that > > > probably needs some batting around, and will require coordination with > > > Websites. Seth Vidal and I will help connect these dots, but folks here > > > are intimate with our toolchain and we should be prepared to come to the > > > table with some answers. > > > > http://autobuild.org/ ? > > > > Perhaps Elliot and Tommy's look at DIY on webtest.fedora might make the > > argument for Autobuild stronger or ...? > > I don't have any experience with (or, frankly -- other than looking > through some of the intro/FAQ/doc pages -- knowledge of) this tool. But > certainly anything that would allow us to get our doc-building fingers > into all sort of presentation-layer pies is a Great Idea. > > > > 3. It might be a good idea for us to start thinking about what docs > > > content is "faster-evolving" than we can or should keep up with in CVS. > > > > I'd like to see the Wiki graduate content into the CMS, just as it > > graduates contributors from the lower-level tools to the upper-level > > tools. This models the growing pattern we all have as writers, from > > basic content to more advanced content. > > I couldn't agree more. The interesting thing about the CMS is that it > combines the easy idea-to-posting capability of a Wiki with some of the > security and workflow aspects that would help us ensure quality > documentation for all. I am just getting started using it so I'm sure > other people have a far better idea about how it all works. > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net Sat Apr 22 02:29:55 2006 From: edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net (Edward Haddock) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:29:55 -1000 Subject: I did it! Message-ID: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Aloha, Pardon the newbie excitement but I have successfully mapped a half-height external USB Hard Drive as my /home and after copying /home in FC4 to it then booting into FC5 and mapping /home to it...presto bango...I am now running FC5 no worries. I did lose a few things in the transfer but not much. Which is quite an accomplishment for a newbie like myself. Matter of fact, on a back burner, I may start writing about this. I think that given the popularity I am seeing it may be wise to tell people about this kind of thing so that upgrades go easier. Plus it puts your data on a different partition. Anyone got any advice on what else should be separated like that? Mahalo, Edward -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 03:11:06 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 23:11:06 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 16:29 -1000, Edward Haddock wrote: > Pardon the newbie excitement but I have successfully mapped a > half-height external USB Hard Drive as my /home and after copying /home > in FC4 to it then booting into FC5 and mapping /home to it...presto > bango...I am now running FC5 no worries. I did lose a few things in the > transfer but not much. Which is quite an accomplishment for a newbie > like myself. Matter of fact, on a back burner, I may start writing about > this. I think that given the popularity I am seeing it may be wise to > tell people about this kind of thing so that upgrades go easier. Plus it > puts your data on a different partition. Anyone got any advice on what > else should be separated like that? Excellent, Edward! It's always a good idea to do backups of important material like /home before upgrading or re-installing. The nice thing about a modern operating system like Linux is that, generally, a disk is a disk is a disk... Whether /home is on a USB hard disk, a thumb drive, or a network share, it's all the same to Linux. You've hit on what is simultaneously one of the most useful, yet hardest to document, facets of system setup -- disk partitioning. People use separate partitions for a number of reasons, and sometimes a single system will have easily a dozen or more partitions. Some people do well taking the defaults in anaconda, and for some it means they're in for massive rebuilding when they realize the implications. As an example, one of my lighter-use general servers at work uses: / /usr /home /boot /var /var/www /var/ftp /var/lib/mysql /var/svn swap I've almost always used a separate /home, because I was lucky enough to start using Linux when a Solaris-savvy friend worked next door. That we don't push a separate /home in the installer is due to many issues, chief among them being that when we start trying to anticipate users' needs with so many possible choices, we invariably end up helping some and annoying others. We've thrown around the idea of a System Planning Guide, which would go hand-in-hand with the Installation Guide, and talk about some of these very basic UNIXish issues in a way that beginners could understand. It helps, when going through the Installation Guide, to know how to make the right choices when the installer gives you options. I hope that you will be able to stay on track with the account setup documentation, but it also makes great sense for someone with fresh eyes to help us tackle this System Planning Guide as ewll. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedoradocs at ddeutsch.org Sat Apr 22 04:11:06 2006 From: fedoradocs at ddeutsch.org (Debbie Deutsch) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 00:11:06 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> Paul W. Frields wrote: > > We've thrown around the idea of a System Planning Guide, which would go > hand-in-hand with the Installation Guide, and talk about some of these > very basic UNIXish issues in a way that beginners could understand. It > helps, when going through the Installation Guide, to know how to make > the right choices when the installer gives you options. > > I hope that you will be able to stay on track with the account setup > documentation, but it also makes great sense for someone with fresh eyes > to help us tackle this System Planning Guide as ewll. > > I could really have used a system planning guide over the past few months. I have built two systems from scratch. I had only built one Linux system before, and that was years ago. (By coincidence, the second system used a hard drive that was transplanted from the corpse of another system that had gone belly-up. It was nine years old, poor thing.) My view of myself is I am fairly ignorant when it comes to the details of how Linux works, but pretty knowledgeable about computer systems in general. I am probably more confident of my ability to take on projects that are likely to become learning experiences and/or adventures than most people would be. Nevertheless, neither build was easy. The first one involved some cutting-edge software. The system, which uses an nVidia nForce4 chipset, was supposed to boot off a RAID 0 array. Oh my goodness! Going with the 64-bit FC5 distribution has only made things more interesting. :-) It was this experience, scrounging for documentation and anything that might give me a clue about what was going wrong and why, that convinced me that I should contribute to the docs project. The good news is I have learned a lot along the way. I have gotten a lot of experience with anaconda, heh. On the other hand, I still wish I had access to a nice document to confirm, one way or another, my theories about how much space to devote to various partitions. I ran across a nice discussion of how much you need in swap, and /boot takes care of itself. However, how much to give to /root or /home (given various scenarios for how you intend to use the system) still seems a bit of a black art to me. There are probably a bunch of other configuration choices that are like that. Without experience administering a system, it is hard for a novice to Linux or Fedora to know what choices to make, or even how important they are to get right (or not). The other thing my experience tells me is that a system planning guide might attempt to advise the novice on some other basic topics: - which release to use. Someone who wants the most stable system with fewest updates today should probably use FC4, not FC5. - what configurations are the easiest for a beginner. We all would like to say that FC is easy to install right out of the box. It certainly is for some configurations. However some features and drivers are more or less baked than others. For a novice I would recommend no RAID, 32-bit, no nVidia drivers. There's probably a lot more that can be said on this subject. - troubleshooting basics. How to get into linux rescue mode using your boot disk, and what you can do there. Some more common problems, their symptoms, and how to confirm if that's what has happened to you. Where to look for more help if you need it. Anyway, that's some grist for the mill! Cheers, Debbie From kwade at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 06:50:09 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 23:50:09 -0700 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145688609.25148.354.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 23:11 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > That we > don't push a separate /home in the installer is due to many issues, > chief among them being that when we start trying to anticipate users' > needs with so many possible choices, we invariably end up helping some > and annoying others. Not from a lack of trying to resolve the issues, though: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=150670 - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sfolkwil at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 12:25:17 2006 From: sfolkwil at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:25:17 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060422122516.GA24921@xander.rdu.redhat.com> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 11:11:06PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 16:29 -1000, Edward Haddock wrote: > > We've thrown around the idea of a System Planning Guide, which would go > hand-in-hand with the Installation Guide, and talk about some of these > very basic UNIXish issues in a way that beginners could understand. It > helps, when going through the Installation Guide, to know how to make > the right choices when the installer gives you options. This is something I would be *very* interested in writing/helping with. > > I hope that you will be able to stay on track with the account setup > documentation, but it also makes great sense for someone with fresh eyes > to help us tackle this System Planning Guide as ewll. > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- ? Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE ? Red Hat Global Support Services ? Phone: 919/754-4558 ? Cell: 919/943-9623 ? Fax: 919/754-3708 ? GPG ID: 1B0D46BA From sfolkwil at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 12:29:36 2006 From: sfolkwil at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:29:36 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060422122935.GB24921@xander.rdu.redhat.com> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 04:29:55PM -1000, Edward Haddock wrote: > Aloha, > Pardon the newbie excitement but I have successfully mapped a > half-height external USB Hard Drive as my /home and after copying /home > in FC4 to it then booting into FC5 and mapping /home to it...presto > bango...I am now running FC5 no worries. I did lose a few things in the Edward, What you did here is super cool and helpful, but do keep in ming that caviat that USB hard drives (and thumbdrives) are prone to data corruption and you should definitely keep a copy on your internal drive as well (or some other backup). I'm not sure about the state of USB drivers in FC5, but previously there have been issues with usb disks failing at a higher rate than internal disks. Sam > transfer but not much. Which is quite an accomplishment for a newbie > like myself. Matter of fact, on a back burner, I may start writing about > this. I think that given the popularity I am seeing it may be wise to > tell people about this kind of thing so that upgrades go easier. Plus it > puts your data on a different partition. Anyone got any advice on what > else should be separated like that? > Mahalo, > Edward > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 13:35:33 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 09:35:33 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> Message-ID: <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 00:11 -0400, Debbie Deutsch wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > We've thrown around the idea of a System Planning Guide, which would go > > hand-in-hand with the Installation Guide, and talk about some of these > > very basic UNIXish issues in a way that beginners could understand. It > > helps, when going through the Installation Guide, to know how to make > > the right choices when the installer gives you options. > > > > I hope that you will be able to stay on track with the account setup > > documentation, but it also makes great sense for someone with fresh eyes > > to help us tackle this System Planning Guide as ewll. > [...snip...] > On the other hand, I still wish I had access to a nice document to > confirm, one way or another, my theories about how much space to devote > to various partitions. I ran across a nice discussion of how much you > need in swap, and /boot takes care of itself. However, how much to give > to /root or /home (given various scenarios for how you intend to use the > system) still seems a bit of a black art to me. There are probably a > bunch of other configuration choices that are like that. Without > experience administering a system, it is hard for a novice to Linux or > Fedora to know what choices to make, or even how important they are to > get right (or not). If you want to see it, make it so! :-) The Wiki is a perfect place to start drafting this -- it requires no DocBook or CVS knowledge, just an account & CLA signup. Until Edward has a draft of his work available, you can still use this page for guidance on how to do that: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem/NewAccount The sections on GPG and SSH are... a little light on info. If you need help at those sections, try instead: Light help: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cryptography More help (GPG only) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/CreatingKeys > The other thing my experience tells me is that a system planning guide > might attempt to advise the novice on some other basic topics: > > - which release to use. Someone who wants the most stable system with > fewest updates today should probably use FC4, not FC5. Hmm, that depends on what you mean by "fewest updates today." If you install FC4 today and then perform a system update, you'll be waiting for (IIRC) many hundreds of megabytes of updates to download before you're patched through the present. On top of that issue, FC4 is at least 6 months closer to being handed off to Fedora Legacy, and after that, EOL. Since Fedora's purpose is not just to hand out free software, but to also advance its cause, in most cases, it's a good idea for new people to install the latest and greatest. That's the distribution getting the most attention for bug fixes, it will last the longest from the day they install it, and their using it (and getting involved in reporting problems) is probably more helpful from the developers' standpoint. Of course, very specific usage scenarios might demand the *absence* of some feature in the latest release, but those edge cases are so numerous and marginal that there's almost no sense in trying to tackle them in a beginner's level guide. The folks for whom these cases occur wouldn't fit the target audience anyway. > - what configurations are the easiest for a beginner. We all would like > to say that FC is easy to install right out of the box. It certainly is > for some configurations. However some features and drivers are more or > less baked than others. For a novice I would recommend no RAID, 32-bit, > no nVidia drivers. There's probably a lot more that can be said on this > subject. As a side note, we wouldn't include anything about nVidia or ATI closed-source 3D drivers anyway. > - troubleshooting basics. How to get into linux rescue mode using your > boot disk, and what you can do there. Some more common problems, their > symptoms, and how to confirm if that's what has happened to you. Where > to look for more help if you need it. I would say this is better kept in either the Installation Guide or elsewhere. Keeping a tight focus for a doc like this is vital; the organizing principle of the System Planning Guide is not as a procedural for installations (that's what the Installation Guide does), but rather a concepts primer for newcomers. It introduces terms and gets people thinking about what their requirements are for their Fedora system. The minute they lay hands on the keyboard/mouse, that's where the Installation Guide and other materials step in. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 13:49:33 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 09:49:33 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <20060422122516.GA24921@xander.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060422122516.GA24921@xander.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145713773.3046.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 08:25 -0400, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 11:11:06PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 16:29 -1000, Edward Haddock wrote: > > > > We've thrown around the idea of a System Planning Guide, which would go > > hand-in-hand with the Installation Guide, and talk about some of these > > very basic UNIXish issues in a way that beginners could understand. It > > helps, when going through the Installation Guide, to know how to make > > the right choices when the installer gives you options. > This is something I would be *very* interested in writing/helping with. Sam, GREAT news! Can you get with Debbie Deutsch and maybe start developing an outline on the Wiki? I've made some notes in a draft page based on earlier comments. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide Feel free to brainstorm together on the list or on the wiki. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedoradocs at ddeutsch.org Sat Apr 22 14:15:52 2006 From: fedoradocs at ddeutsch.org (Debbie Deutsch) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:15:52 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 00:11 -0400, Debbie Deutsch wrote: >> Paul W. Frields wrote: > > If you want to see it, make it so! :-) The Wiki is a perfect place to > start drafting this -- it requires no DocBook or CVS knowledge, just an > account & CLA signup. Until Edward has a draft of his work available, > you can still use this page for guidance on how to do that: The good news is I already have wiki access. The bad news is how much time I do (not) have available for this. :-( > > >> The other thing my experience tells me is that a system planning guide >> might attempt to advise the novice on some other basic topics: >> >> - which release to use. Someone who wants the most stable system with >> fewest updates today should probably use FC4, not FC5. > > Hmm, that depends on what you mean by "fewest updates today." If you > install FC4 today and then perform a system update, you'll be waiting > for (IIRC) many hundreds of megabytes of updates to download before > you're patched through the present. On top of that issue, FC4 is at > least 6 months closer to being handed off to Fedora Legacy, and after > that, EOL. To clarify, yes, someone who installed FC4 today would get a large number of updates. However once they were installed there would be relatively few, while users of FC5 would be expected to run into more bugs and get more updates on a daily basis. > > Since Fedora's purpose is not just to hand out free software, but to > also advance its cause, in most cases, it's a good idea for new people > to install the latest and greatest. That's the distribution getting the > most attention for bug fixes, it will last the longest from the day they > install it, and their using it (and getting involved in reporting > problems) is probably more helpful from the developers' standpoint. > I must respectfully disagree here. What is best for Fedora depends on the user. Certainly, an experienced user should be using the newest release unless they are trying to do something critical and do not feel they can afford to be patient while potential bugs were addressed. On the other hand, someone who is very new to Linux is not going to be very skilled at troubleshooting or even describing Linux problems. So, the value of the feedback that such a person can offer to the project will generally be less than normal. Maybe even more important, a novice Linux user may be frightened away if he runs into too many bumps in the road. In the long term, the project may be best served if we have more people using the "old" release as their first release. Then, with that experience under their belts, they can join the mainstream when the next new release comes out. Bottom line is we would probably have more people testing the *next* new release. > >> - what configurations are the easiest for a beginner. We all would like >> to say that FC is easy to install right out of the box. It certainly is >> for some configurations. However some features and drivers are more or >> less baked than others. For a novice I would recommend no RAID, 32-bit, >> no nVidia drivers. There's probably a lot more that can be said on this >> subject. > > As a side note, we wouldn't include anything about nVidia or ATI > closed-source 3D drivers anyway. We might mention that some vendors have not yet joined the open source movement and their drivers are not included with FC because they are proprietary. People should know what to expect. It may even help them choose their hardware accordingly. :-) > >> - troubleshooting basics. How to get into linux rescue mode using your >> boot disk, and what you can do there. Some more common problems, their >> symptoms, and how to confirm if that's what has happened to you. Where >> to look for more help if you need it. > > I would say this is better kept in either the Installation Guide or > elsewhere. Keeping a tight focus for a doc like this is vital; the > organizing principle of the System Planning Guide is not as a procedural > for installations (that's what the Installation Guide does), but rather > a concepts primer for newcomers. It introduces terms and gets people > thinking about what their requirements are for their Fedora system. The > minute they lay hands on the keyboard/mouse, that's where the > Installation Guide and other materials step in. I see your point! Cheers, Debbie From rostetter at mail.utexas.edu Sat Apr 22 15:22:32 2006 From: rostetter at mail.utexas.edu (Eric Rostetter) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:22:32 -0500 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060422102232.o1pdrz06sf1cgg44@mail.ph.utexas.edu> Quoting "Paul W. Frields" : > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem/NewAccount > > The sections on GPG and SSH are... a little light on info. If you need > help at those sections, try instead: > > Light help: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cryptography > More help (GPG only) > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/CreatingKeys I wrote a page up for the Fedora Legacy project on using GPG which you can use as reference. Not sure if it would be of help, but if it is, feel free to grab parts of it. It can be found at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy/PGPHowTo -- Eric Rostetter The Department of Physics The University of Texas at Austin Go Longhorns! From sfolkwil at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 17:14:16 2006 From: sfolkwil at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:14:16 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> Message-ID: <20060422171416.GA26410@xander.rdu.redhat.com> > > > I must respectfully disagree here. What is best for Fedora depends on > the user. Certainly, an experienced user should be using the newest > release unless they are trying to do something critical and do not feel > they can afford to be patient while potential bugs were addressed. On > the other hand, someone who is very new to Linux is not going to be very > skilled at troubleshooting or even describing Linux problems. So, the > value of the feedback that such a person can offer to the project will > generally be less than normal. Maybe even more important, a novice > Linux user may be frightened away if he runs into too many bumps in the > road. In the long term, the project may be best served if we have more > people using the "old" release as their first release. Then, with that > experience under their belts, they can join the mainstream when the next > new release comes out. Bottom line is we would probably have more > people testing the *next* new release. > I actually don't think there is much to be gained by new users using old versions. The improvements and added features are so dramatic between versions, and the entire support community quickly migrates, making it unlikely that users would benefit or have any easier time of it by using an old release. That said, I see Debbie's point and a "which version to install first?" might be a good section for the planning guide. > > > >> - what configurations are the easiest for a beginner. We all would like > >> to say that FC is easy to install right out of the box. It certainly is > >> for some configurations. However some features and drivers are more or > >> less baked than others. For a novice I would recommend no RAID, 32-bit, > >> no nVidia drivers. There's probably a lot more that can be said on this > >> subject. > > > > As a side note, we wouldn't include anything about nVidia or ATI > > closed-source 3D drivers anyway. > > We might mention that some vendors have not yet joined the open source > movement and their drivers are not included with FC because they are > proprietary. People should know what to expect. It may even help them > choose their hardware accordingly. :-) > > > > >> - troubleshooting basics. How to get into linux rescue mode using your > >> boot disk, and what you can do there. Some more common problems, their > >> symptoms, and how to confirm if that's what has happened to you. Where > >> to look for more help if you need it. > > > > I would say this is better kept in either the Installation Guide or > > elsewhere. Keeping a tight focus for a doc like this is vital; the > > organizing principle of the System Planning Guide is not as a procedural > > for installations (that's what the Installation Guide does), but rather > > a concepts primer for newcomers. It introduces terms and gets people > > thinking about what their requirements are for their Fedora system. The > > minute they lay hands on the keyboard/mouse, that's where the > > Installation Guide and other materials step in. > > I see your point! > > Cheers, > > Debbie > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- ? Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE ? Red Hat Global Support Services ? Phone: 919/754-4558 ? GPG ID: 1B0D46BA From sfolkwil at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 17:15:20 2006 From: sfolkwil at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:15:20 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145713773.3046.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060422122516.GA24921@xander.rdu.redhat.com> <1145713773.3046.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060422171520.GB26410@xander.rdu.redhat.com> On Sat, Apr 22, 2006 at 09:49:33AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Sam, GREAT news! Can you get with Debbie Deutsch and maybe start > developing an outline on the Wiki? I've made some notes in a draft page > based on earlier comments. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide > > Feel free to brainstorm together on the list or on the wiki. Will do! Before I start, though -- is this something that would be fruitful to start in the new plone system? > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- ? Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE ? Red Hat Global Support Services ? Phone: 919/754-4558 ? GPG ID: 1B0D46BA From edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net Sat Apr 22 20:10:48 2006 From: edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net (Edward Haddock) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:10:48 -1000 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145736648.3147.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 23:11 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 16:29 -1000, Edward Haddock wrote: > > Pardon the newbie excitement but I have successfully mapped a > > half-height external USB Hard Drive as my /home and after copying /home > > in FC4 to it then booting into FC5 and mapping /home to it...presto > > bango...I am now running FC5 no worries. I did lose a few things in the > > transfer but not much. Which is quite an accomplishment for a newbie > > like myself. Matter of fact, on a back burner, I may start writing about > > this. I think that given the popularity I am seeing it may be wise to > > tell people about this kind of thing so that upgrades go easier. Plus it > > puts your data on a different partition. Anyone got any advice on what > > else should be separated like that? > > Excellent, Edward! It's always a good idea to do backups of important > material like /home before upgrading or re-installing. The nice thing > about a modern operating system like Linux is that, generally, a disk is > a disk is a disk... Whether /home is on a USB hard disk, a thumb drive, > or a network share, it's all the same to Linux. > > You've hit on what is simultaneously one of the most useful, yet hardest > to document, facets of system setup -- disk partitioning. People use > separate partitions for a number of reasons, and sometimes a single > system will have easily a dozen or more partitions. Some people do well > taking the defaults in anaconda, and for some it means they're in for > massive rebuilding when they realize the implications. > > As an example, one of my lighter-use general servers at work uses: > > / > /usr > /home > /boot > /var > /var/www > /var/ftp > /var/lib/mysql > /var/svn > swap > > I've almost always used a separate /home, because I was lucky enough to > start using Linux when a Solaris-savvy friend worked next door. That we > don't push a separate /home in the installer is due to many issues, > chief among them being that when we start trying to anticipate users' > needs with so many possible choices, we invariably end up helping some > and annoying others. > > We've thrown around the idea of a System Planning Guide, which would go > hand-in-hand with the Installation Guide, and talk about some of these > very basic UNIXish issues in a way that beginners could understand. It > helps, when going through the Installation Guide, to know how to make > the right choices when the installer gives you options. > > I hope that you will be able to stay on track with the account setup > documentation, but it also makes great sense for someone with fresh eyes > to help us tackle this System Planning Guide as ewll. Aloha Paul, I actually got a little more worked out on it last night. It is a slow but steady process with me. I am hoping to get something intelligible together by mid-may and then we can start going over it. A System Planning Guide sounds like an awesome idea. Perhaps after we get the Documentation Guide on it's feet it would be a great project to participate in. Mahalo Ed > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net Sat Apr 22 20:26:36 2006 From: edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net (Edward Haddock) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:26:36 -1000 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145688609.25148.354.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145688609.25148.354.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1145737596.3147.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 23:50 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 23:11 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > That we > > don't push a separate /home in the installer is due to many issues, > > chief among them being that when we start trying to anticipate users' > > needs with so many possible choices, we invariably end up helping some > > and annoying others. > > Not from a lack of trying to resolve the issues, though: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=150670 > Aloha Karsten, Perhaps it would be best to leave the Fedora Automatic scheme as it is and then have a separate topic that discusses upgrade possibilities? For instance, "Moving your /home to another partition to facilitate upgrades." or the like. From a personal perspective, starting with Linux has been different that growing with Linux. This is my first upgrade per say. Well the first one where I kept everything and moved my email and such. That brought on a whole new set of challenges and need for information. I'm rambling now so I will cease. Mahalo, Edward > - Karsten > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net Sat Apr 22 20:30:54 2006 From: edward.haddock at hawaiiantel.net (Edward Haddock) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:30:54 -1000 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <20060422122935.GB24921@xander.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060422122935.GB24921@xander.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145737854.3147.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 08:29 -0400, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 04:29:55PM -1000, Edward Haddock wrote: > > Aloha, > > Pardon the newbie excitement but I have successfully mapped a > > half-height external USB Hard Drive as my /home and after copying /home > > in FC4 to it then booting into FC5 and mapping /home to it...presto > > bango...I am now running FC5 no worries. I did lose a few things in the > > Edward, > > What you did here is super cool and helpful, but do keep in ming that caviat > that USB hard drives (and thumbdrives) are prone to data corruption and you > should definitely keep a copy on your internal drive as well (or some other > backup). I'm not sure about the state of USB drivers in FC5, but previously > there have been issues with usb disks failing at a higher rate than internal > disks. > > Sam Aloha Sam, Thanks for the heads up on that. I will definitely keep a backup as I always do. Data Integrity is pretty important to me. I have already considered the internal drive and will likely do that when I get the Windows XP partition re-sized. I rarely use it but there are times when only windows will do. After that, the rest of the internal drive will be nothing but /home and maybe /opt. Not sure yet still planning. :) Of course with Linux, that is half the fun isn't it? Mahalo, Edward > > > transfer but not much. Which is quite an accomplishment for a newbie > > like myself. Matter of fact, on a back burner, I may start writing about > > this. I think that given the popularity I am seeing it may be wise to > > tell people about this kind of thing so that upgrades go easier. Plus it > > puts your data on a different partition. Anyone got any advice on what > > else should be separated like that? > > Mahalo, > > Edward > > > > > -- > > fedora-docs-list mailing list > > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > > To unsubscribe: > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 22:04:02 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 18:04:02 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> Message-ID: <1145743443.3046.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 10:15 -0400, Debbie Deutsch wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> - which release to use. Someone who wants the most stable system with > >> fewest updates today should probably use FC4, not FC5. > > > > Hmm, that depends on what you mean by "fewest updates today." If you > > install FC4 today and then perform a system update, you'll be waiting > > for (IIRC) many hundreds of megabytes of updates to download before > > you're patched through the present. On top of that issue, FC4 is at > > least 6 months closer to being handed off to Fedora Legacy, and after > > that, EOL. > > To clarify, yes, someone who installed FC4 today would get a large > number of updates. However once they were installed there would be > relatively few, while users of FC5 would be expected to run into more > bugs and get more updates on a daily basis. More updates does not necessarily mean more user-visible bugs. In many cases the bugs being fixed are of a nature neither insidious nor particularly troublesome for less technical end-users. > > Since Fedora's purpose is not just to hand out free software, but to > > also advance its cause, in most cases, it's a good idea for new people > > to install the latest and greatest. That's the distribution getting the > > most attention for bug fixes, it will last the longest from the day they > > install it, and their using it (and getting involved in reporting > > problems) is probably more helpful from the developers' standpoint. > > I must respectfully disagree here. What is best for Fedora depends on > the user. Certainly, an experienced user should be using the newest > release unless they are trying to do something critical and do not feel > they can afford to be patient while potential bugs were addressed. On > the other hand, someone who is very new to Linux is not going to be very > skilled at troubleshooting or even describing Linux problems. So, the > value of the feedback that such a person can offer to the project will > generally be less than normal. Maybe even more important, a novice > Linux user may be frightened away if he runs into too many bumps in the > road. In the long term, the project may be best served if we have more > people using the "old" release as their first release. Then, with that > experience under their belts, they can join the mainstream when the next > new release comes out. Bottom line is we would probably have more > people testing the *next* new release. I would tend to agree if the user experience were not so much improved from release to release, or if usability were directly related to the number of bugs in a release. Many of the bugs in each release are subtle and go unnoticed by new users; only a few standouts achieve wide notoriety from the time of release, and each release has them. Most are fixed, some are simply shrugged off until the next release because development has outpaced them in such a way that fixing them would be more painful (for developers and users) than waving people on to the next and better release. FC5 is probably the most user-friendly releases to date, so I would be loathe to recommend FC4 in its place, *especially* to a new user. The addition of a working GUI update tool, and the easy point-and-click installation of new myRepo-release packages from the web alone is enough to recommend FC5 over FC4, not to mention faster OpenOffice.org, a nautilus Windows network browser that actually works, etc.... > >> - what configurations are the easiest for a beginner. We all would like > >> to say that FC is easy to install right out of the box. It certainly is > >> for some configurations. However some features and drivers are more or > >> less baked than others. For a novice I would recommend no RAID, 32-bit, > >> no nVidia drivers. There's probably a lot more that can be said on this > >> subject. > > > > As a side note, we wouldn't include anything about nVidia or ATI > > closed-source 3D drivers anyway. > > We might mention that some vendors have not yet joined the open source > movement and their drivers are not included with FC because they are > proprietary. People should know what to expect. It may even help them > choose their hardware accordingly. :-) This is a great idea. I asked Sam Folk-Williams to connect with you about working on this. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedora-docs at ddeutsch.net Sat Apr 22 23:03:51 2006 From: fedora-docs at ddeutsch.net (Debbie Deutsch) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:03:51 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145743443.3046.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> <1145743443.3046.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <444AB657.1070103@ddeutsch.net> Paul W. Frields wrote: > I would tend to agree if the user experience were not so much improved > from release to release, or if usability were directly related to the > number of bugs in a release. Many of the bugs in each release are > subtle and go unnoticed by new users; only a few standouts achieve wide > notoriety from the time of release, and each release has them. Most are > fixed, some are simply shrugged off until the next release because > development has outpaced them in such a way that fixing them would be > more painful (for developers and users) than waving people on to the > next and better release. > > FC5 is probably the most user-friendly releases to date, so I would be > loathe to recommend FC4 in its place, *especially* to a new user. The > addition of a working GUI update tool, and the easy point-and-click > installation of new myRepo-release packages from the web alone is enough > to recommend FC5 over FC4, not to mention faster OpenOffice.org, a > nautilus Windows network browser that actually works, etc.... > I agree with you in principle. Here is what is on my mind. The expectations and expertise of Linux users and Windows users are so different. (Yes, Apple users are out there too, and they are yet another breed.) We who use Linux expect to see changes in our system very frequently, and take it as a matter of course that every so often something will be (temporarily) broken. In exchange for this we get a lot of choice in how we use our systems to do whatever we are trying to accomplish, up to and including changing the source software and a greater pace of innovation. A Windows user is used to a much slower pace of change. It takes several years between new versions of Microsoft applications and even longer between releases of the operating system. Even more important, very few Windows users expect to ever have to install or configure an operating system. It comes already installed on their PC. So installing Fedora and dealing with configuration issues is unfamiliar territory and apt to be intimidating for non-technical people (and maybe some technical folks, too). My own experience building two Linux systems in the past few months has been that one can encounter problems that are not obvious to solve even on a simple system (one disk drive, no unusual chipsets or chipsets that require proprietary drivers, normal amounts of memory, etc.). On that system for some mysterious reason the 64-bit version of FC5 could not boot past the first boot code. Change to the 32-bit version and all was well. This sort of problem could happen to anyone, alas. One of our goals should be to attract and keep as many people as possible as new Fedora users. Problems during installation could easily discourage folks. While there are plenty of helpful people monitoring the Fedora main mailinglist, it is very high volume and the subjects can be intimidating to the newcomer. In a perfect world I would suggest a marketing program in which people who were new to Fedora (and probably Linux) could get paired up with experienced folks who were willing to act as one-on-one mentors. Even better, what if the mentors could be nearby geographically (or at least timezone-wise)? The logistics boggle the mind, alas. Anyway, that's my reasoning. I should probably stop, now. :-) >>>> - what configurations are the easiest for a beginner. We all would like >>>> to say that FC is easy to install right out of the box. It certainly is >>>> for some configurations. However some features and drivers are more or >>>> less baked than others. For a novice I would recommend no RAID, 32-bit, >>>> no nVidia drivers. There's probably a lot more that can be said on this >>>> subject. >>> As a side note, we wouldn't include anything about nVidia or ATI >>> closed-source 3D drivers anyway. >> We might mention that some vendors have not yet joined the open source >> movement and their drivers are not included with FC because they are >> proprietary. People should know what to expect. It may even help them >> choose their hardware accordingly. :-) > > This is a great idea. I asked Sam Folk-Williams to connect with you > about working on this. > > This afternoon I added a very rough cut at an outline to the wiki. It is incomplete and uneven in its coverage. People may want to change its emphasis or point of view. That's fine. However it is something that anyone might usefully add to or alter in a few spare minutes. I expect it will change a lot before all is said and done, but felt a starting point would be useful. Debbie From dpniner at dpniner.name Sun Apr 23 01:18:59 2006 From: dpniner at dpniner.name (David-Paul Niner) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:18:59 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <444AB657.1070103@ddeutsch.net> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> <1145743443.3046.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444AB657.1070103@ddeutsch.net> Message-ID: <1145755139.6205.5.camel@fortinbras.dpniner.net> I would be willing to contribute some time to developing the sort of documentation you folks have been discussing recently. I'm an RHCE and know the Fedora system fairly well. Six months or so back I signed a CLA, but there was some issue with my being granted cvs access so the time I would have spent working on documentation wound up being committed to other things. I wish I could recall exactly what the issue was, but it seems as though there were numerous problems with my account access. Anyway, it was clearly my bad. If there's anything I could do to assist, please let me know! David-Paul NIner On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 19:03 -0400, Debbie Deutsch wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > I would tend to agree if the user experience were not so much improved > > from release to release, or if usability were directly related to the > > number of bugs in a release. Many of the bugs in each release are > > subtle and go unnoticed by new users; only a few standouts achieve wide > > notoriety from the time of release, and each release has them. Most are > > fixed, some are simply shrugged off until the next release because > > development has outpaced them in such a way that fixing them would be > > more painful (for developers and users) than waving people on to the > > next and better release. > > > > FC5 is probably the most user-friendly releases to date, so I would be > > loathe to recommend FC4 in its place, *especially* to a new user. The > > addition of a working GUI update tool, and the easy point-and-click > > installation of new myRepo-release packages from the web alone is enough > > to recommend FC5 over FC4, not to mention faster OpenOffice.org, a > > nautilus Windows network browser that actually works, etc.... > > > > I agree with you in principle. Here is what is on my mind. The > expectations and expertise of Linux users and Windows users are so > different. (Yes, Apple users are out there too, and they are yet > another breed.) We who use Linux expect to see changes in our system > very frequently, and take it as a matter of course that every so often > something will be (temporarily) broken. In exchange for this we get a > lot of choice in how we use our systems to do whatever we are trying to > accomplish, up to and including changing the source software and a > greater pace of innovation. A Windows user is used to a much slower > pace of change. It takes several years between new versions of > Microsoft applications and even longer between releases of the operating > system. Even more important, very few Windows users expect to ever > have to install or configure an operating system. It comes already > installed on their PC. So installing Fedora and dealing with > configuration issues is unfamiliar territory and apt to be intimidating > for non-technical people (and maybe some technical folks, too). > > My own experience building two Linux systems in the past few months has > been that one can encounter problems that are not obvious to solve even > on a simple system (one disk drive, no unusual chipsets or chipsets that > require proprietary drivers, normal amounts of memory, etc.). On that > system for some mysterious reason the 64-bit version of FC5 could not > boot past the first boot code. Change to the 32-bit version and all was > well. This sort of problem could happen to anyone, alas. > > One of our goals should be to attract and keep as many people as > possible as new Fedora users. Problems during installation could easily > discourage folks. While there are plenty of helpful people monitoring > the Fedora main mailinglist, it is very high volume and the subjects can > be intimidating to the newcomer. In a perfect world I would suggest a > marketing program in which people who were new to Fedora (and probably > Linux) could get paired up with experienced folks who were willing to > act as one-on-one mentors. Even better, what if the mentors could be > nearby geographically (or at least timezone-wise)? The logistics boggle > the mind, alas. > > Anyway, that's my reasoning. I should probably stop, now. :-) > > >>>> - what configurations are the easiest for a beginner. We all would like > >>>> to say that FC is easy to install right out of the box. It certainly is > >>>> for some configurations. However some features and drivers are more or > >>>> less baked than others. For a novice I would recommend no RAID, 32-bit, > >>>> no nVidia drivers. There's probably a lot more that can be said on this > >>>> subject. > >>> As a side note, we wouldn't include anything about nVidia or ATI > >>> closed-source 3D drivers anyway. > >> We might mention that some vendors have not yet joined the open source > >> movement and their drivers are not included with FC because they are > >> proprietary. People should know what to expect. It may even help them > >> choose their hardware accordingly. :-) > > > > This is a great idea. I asked Sam Folk-Williams to connect with you > > about working on this. > > > > > > This afternoon I added a very rough cut at an outline to the wiki. It > is incomplete and uneven in its coverage. People may want to change its > emphasis or point of view. That's fine. However it is something that > anyone might usefully add to or alter in a few spare minutes. I expect > it will change a lot before all is said and done, but felt a starting > point would be useful. > > Debbie > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 14:29:03 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 10:29:03 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <20060422171416.GA26410@xander.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> <20060422171416.GA26410@xander.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145802543.3046.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 13:14 -0400, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > > I must respectfully disagree here. What is best for Fedora depends on > > the user. Certainly, an experienced user should be using the newest > > release unless they are trying to do something critical and do not feel > > they can afford to be patient while potential bugs were addressed. On > > the other hand, someone who is very new to Linux is not going to be very > > skilled at troubleshooting or even describing Linux problems. So, the > > value of the feedback that such a person can offer to the project will > > generally be less than normal. Maybe even more important, a novice > > Linux user may be frightened away if he runs into too many bumps in the > > road. In the long term, the project may be best served if we have more > > people using the "old" release as their first release. Then, with that > > experience under their belts, they can join the mainstream when the next > > new release comes out. Bottom line is we would probably have more > > people testing the *next* new release. > > I actually don't think there is much to be gained by new users using old > versions. The improvements and added features are so dramatic between versions, > and the entire support community quickly migrates, making it unlikely that > users would benefit or have any easier time of it by using an old release. > > That said, I see Debbie's point and a "which version to install first?" might > be a good section for the planning guide. A "choosing your release" section sounds like not only a good compromise, but a good acknowledgement of the issues that might otherwise confuse new users. Although I think "older release, fewer bugs" is kind of a red herring, given the usability strides I mentioned previously, one of the keys to making this document attain its goal is to at least confront some of the more "mythical" issues that swirl around at release time. Perhaps gathering some of these from the Fedora Forum would be a good thing...? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 14:39:19 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 10:39:19 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <20060422171520.GB26410@xander.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060422122516.GA24921@xander.rdu.redhat.com> <1145713773.3046.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060422171520.GB26410@xander.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145803159.3046.67.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 13:15 -0400, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > On Sat, Apr 22, 2006 at 09:49:33AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > Sam, GREAT news! Can you get with Debbie Deutsch and maybe start > > developing an outline on the Wiki? I've made some notes in a draft page > > based on earlier comments. > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide > > > > Feel free to brainstorm together on the list or on the wiki. > Will do! Before I start, though -- is this something that would be fruitful to > start in the new plone system? You know, I honestly couldn't tell you. My gut says that the wiki is the place to go for now, since it doesn't require people to set up Yet Another Account... but that may be dodging the fact that we *will* need to figure out how we can "publish" to Plone. I would bet -- given how popular Plone is -- that there may be some facility already for dumping in DocBook files as content. If there's not, the platform is sufficiently mature that we could probably find someone who could make that a reality. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedora-docs at ddeutsch.net Sun Apr 23 14:40:33 2006 From: fedora-docs at ddeutsch.net (Debbie Deutsch) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 10:40:33 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145802543.3046.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> <20060422171416.GA26410@xander.rdu.redhat.com> <1145802543.3046.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <444B91E1.3030103@ddeutsch.net> Paul W. Frields wrote: > > A "choosing your release" section sounds like not only a good > compromise, but a good acknowledgement of the issues that might > otherwise confuse new users. Although I think "older release, fewer > bugs" is kind of a red herring, given the usability strides I mentioned > previously, one of the keys to making this document attain its goal is > to at least confront some of the more "mythical" issues that swirl > around at release time. Perhaps gathering some of these from the Fedora > Forum would be a good thing...? > > Are you suggesting that one of us explicitly pose that question in the forum? The results might be interesting, especially if the thread did not degenerate into ranting. Debbie From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 14:52:40 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 10:52:40 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <444B91E1.3030103@ddeutsch.net> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> <20060422171416.GA26410@xander.rdu.redhat.com> <1145802543.3046.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444B91E1.3030103@ddeutsch.net> Message-ID: <1145803960.3046.75.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-04-23 at 10:40 -0400, Debbie Deutsch wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > A "choosing your release" section sounds like not only a good > > compromise, but a good acknowledgement of the issues that might > > otherwise confuse new users. Although I think "older release, fewer > > bugs" is kind of a red herring, given the usability strides I mentioned > > previously, one of the keys to making this document attain its goal is > > to at least confront some of the more "mythical" issues that swirl > > around at release time. Perhaps gathering some of these from the Fedora > > Forum would be a good thing...? > > > > > Are you suggesting that one of us explicitly pose that question in the > forum? The results might be interesting, especially if the thread did > not degenerate into ranting. Given the probability of that "if" becoming "when," no... ;-D *But* it could be worthwhile to at least scan through the topics list from the last month (i.e. since FC5 release), and compare to the month following FC4 release, to see if there are any recurrences. In all seriousness, memory being what it is, this is a case where archives are better at doing one's bidding! :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sfolkwil at redhat.com Sun Apr 23 15:02:24 2006 From: sfolkwil at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 11:02:24 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145802543.3046.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> <20060422171416.GA26410@xander.rdu.redhat.com> <1145802543.3046.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060423150224.GC26410@xander.rdu.redhat.com> On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 10:29:03AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > A "choosing your release" section sounds like not only a good > compromise, but a good acknowledgement of the issues that might > otherwise confuse new users. Although I think "older release, fewer > bugs" is kind of a red herring, given the usability strides I mentioned > previously, one of the keys to making this document attain its goal is > to at least confront some of the more "mythical" issues that swirl > around at release time. Perhaps gathering some of these from the Fedora > Forum would be a good thing...? > Debbie, Looks like we are both putting some ideas into the wiki page. For me, I find writing into the wiki directly kind of hard, and generally prefer to compose off-line. Would you like to split up some sections? I'd be happy to take it off line, do a draft over the next few days, the paste it back in and you/others can edit/revise/etc. Otherwise if we could split up sections that would be cool. Let me know what you think. Sam From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 17:20:21 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 13:20:21 -0400 Subject: Translation fixes Message-ID: <1145812822.2569.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> I noticed something in our build tools which seems to me a problem: our POT file only includes the msgstr information for the XMLFILES but does not include the DOC_ENTITIES. If we can (and should) only have one $(LANG).po file per language, shouldn't all the XML strings for translation be in the one POT? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sun Apr 23 18:08:23 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 11:08:23 -0700 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <444AB657.1070103@ddeutsch.net> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> <1145743443.3046.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444AB657.1070103@ddeutsch.net> Message-ID: <1145815703.25148.476.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 19:03 -0400, Debbie Deutsch wrote: > In a perfect world I would suggest a > marketing program in which people who were new to Fedora (and probably > Linux) could get paired up with experienced folks who were willing to > act as one-on-one mentors. Even better, what if the mentors could be > nearby geographically (or at least timezone-wise)? The logistics boggle > the mind, alas. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-mentors-list These are mentors mainly for becoming contributors to Fedora. The program hasn't seemed to extend to cover just helping users. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 18:32:18 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 14:32:18 -0400 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145815703.25148.476.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444A3A98.4050007@ddeutsch.org> <1145743443.3046.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <444AB657.1070103@ddeutsch.net> <1145815703.25148.476.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1145817138.2569.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-04-23 at 11:08 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 19:03 -0400, Debbie Deutsch wrote: > > In a perfect world I would suggest a > > marketing program in which people who were new to Fedora (and probably > > Linux) could get paired up with experienced folks who were willing to > > act as one-on-one mentors. Even better, what if the mentors could be > > nearby geographically (or at least timezone-wise)? The logistics boggle > > the mind, alas. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-mentors-list > > These are mentors mainly for becoming contributors to Fedora. The > program hasn't seemed to extend to cover just helping users. Although to be fair we already have IRC #fedora, FedoraForum.org, fedora-list... One thing about the mentors program is that it is premised somewhat on regularity. Having user support as part of Mentors would tend to wear the contributors unevenly -- i.e. some mentors end up being more popular and thus more weighed down. With the other venues, people stop in and help where and when they can, which tends in the long view to be very "evenly wearing." -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Mon Apr 24 18:57:55 2006 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 13:57:55 -0500 Subject: Translation fixes In-Reply-To: <1145812822.2569.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145812822.2569.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060424135755.4faf4545.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > I noticed something in our build tools which seems to me a problem: our > POT file only includes the msgstr information for the XMLFILES but does > not include the DOC_ENTITIES. If we can (and should) only have one > $(LANG).po file per language, shouldn't all the XML strings for > translation be in the one POT? As our knowlege of this translation thing seems to be evolving, I believe that the entities files are of use only to keep usage consistancy in the ${PRI_LANG} original language version of the document. So, yes, I think a single .POT file per document makes sense. I've been in the throes of moving, shuttling between two houses, and haven't had time for the make-fu to correct this. Things should settle down soon and I'll take care of it. -- I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have every intention of dying an abuse! From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 00:05:17 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:05:17 -0400 Subject: Translation fixes In-Reply-To: <20060424135755.4faf4545.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1145812822.2569.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060424135755.4faf4545.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1145923517.6376.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 13:57 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > I noticed something in our build tools which seems to me a problem: our > > POT file only includes the msgstr information for the XMLFILES but does > > not include the DOC_ENTITIES. If we can (and should) only have one > > $(LANG).po file per language, shouldn't all the XML strings for > > translation be in the one POT? > > As our knowlege of this translation thing seems to be evolving, I > believe that the entities files are of use only to keep usage > consistancy in the ${PRI_LANG} original language version of the > document. So, yes, I think a single .POT file per document makes > sense. Of course you're right; if the parsing is done pre-POT -- which is what I think we agree has to happen, to ensure consistency and the ability for translators to access the entire document. So the idea would be, AIUI: * Drop the po/${DOC_ENTITIES}.pot target * Drop all '-k' switches for ${XML2PO} ...? (Don't feel like you have to figure this out and reply, I'm more thinking out loud here.) > I've been in the throes of moving, shuttling between two houses, and > haven't had time for the make-fu to correct this. Things should > settle down soon and I'll take care of it. Totally understood. Hope everything is going well, we miss you 'round these parts. :-) I am in the middle of an office move -- not quite as traumatic, but it definitely has messed up my schedule and kept me from getting to a lot of work I meant to accomplish. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 00:11:22 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:11:22 -0400 Subject: Schedule notes Message-ID: <1145923882.6376.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> For FDSCo and Board information: * I will not be able to make tomorrow's (25 Apr 2006) FDSCo meeting, since I will be supervising some work for an office relocation which will keep me late at the office. I'll look for the notes and minutes to get up to speed. * At my new office, our new broadband line is not ready, and may not arrive for some time. In the meantime we will be sharing a pipe with another group, and their various and poorly-conceived security regulations may make it impossible (or at least very difficult) for me to be active online (IRC, etc.) during the day. I'll try to take care of as much work as I can after hours; your patience is appreciated! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From docs-list at fedoralinks.org Tue Apr 25 04:12:25 2006 From: docs-list at fedoralinks.org (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:12:25 -0500 Subject: Schedule notes In-Reply-To: <1145923882.6376.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145923882.6376.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145938345.2218.53.camel@cbcclt02.cbcchome.cbccgroup.com> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 20:11 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > For FDSCo and Board information: > > * I will not be able to make tomorrow's (25 Apr 2006) FDSCo meeting, > since I will be supervising some work for an office relocation which > will keep me late at the office. I'll look for the notes and minutes to > get up to speed. > > * At my new office, our new broadband line is not ready, and may not > arrive for some time. In the meantime we will be sharing a pipe with > another group, and their various and poorly-conceived security > regulations may make it impossible (or at least very difficult) for me > to be active online (IRC, etc.) during the day. I'll try to take care > of as much work as I can after hours; your patience is appreciated! > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list Rock on Paul, thanks for the update. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen Fedora Documentation Projects -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 25 13:50:28 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 06:50:28 -0700 Subject: Schedule notes In-Reply-To: <1145923882.6376.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145923882.6376.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145973028.25148.596.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 20:11 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > For FDSCo and Board information: > > * I will not be able to make tomorrow's (25 Apr 2006) FDSCo meeting, > since I will be supervising some work for an office relocation which > will keep me late at the office. I'll look for the notes and minutes to > get up to speed. Let's cancel for today. I'm going to be at the MySQL Users Conference for my $DAY_JOB, so won't have the attention for the meeting, anyway. With Paul out and Tommy in medias move, we can't scare up a quorum. cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Tue Apr 25 21:37:47 2006 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:37:47 -0500 Subject: Translation fixes In-Reply-To: <1145923517.6376.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145812822.2569.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060424135755.4faf4545.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1145923517.6376.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060425163747.27665dd9.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > So the idea would be, AIUI: > > * Drop the po/${DOC_ENTITIES}.pot target > * Drop all '-k' switches for ${XML2PO} Something like that. I have a hard time not keeping the "its just like the C preprocessor or the M4 macro preprocessor" mentality. I think the flow is something like this: original-xml + entities ==> "flat" xml ==> POT ==> PO + xml2po ==> localized xml > ...? (Don't feel like you have to figure this out and reply, I'm more > thinking out loud here.) OK. (Note that this didn't take much convincing...) Cheers From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 23:27:00 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:27:00 -0400 Subject: Translation fixes In-Reply-To: <20060425163747.27665dd9.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1145812822.2569.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060424135755.4faf4545.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1145923517.6376.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060425163747.27665dd9.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1146007620.5085.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 16:37 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > So the idea would be, AIUI: > > > > * Drop the po/${DOC_ENTITIES}.pot target > > * Drop all '-k' switches for ${XML2PO} > > Something like that. I have a hard time not keeping the "its just > like the C preprocessor or the M4 macro preprocessor" mentality. > > I think the flow is something like this: > > original-xml + entities ==> "flat" xml ==> POT ==> PO + xml2po ==> > localized xml Thank ye gods, I agree, and more importantly, I understand. > > ...? (Don't feel like you have to figure this out and reply, I'm more > > thinking out loud here.) > > OK. (Note that this didn't take much convincing...) You mean like last time, when I got it all so superbly wrong? ;-D -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 23:28:07 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:28:07 -0400 Subject: Schedule notes In-Reply-To: <1145973028.25148.596.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1145923882.6376.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145973028.25148.596.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1146007687.5085.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 06:50 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 20:11 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > For FDSCo and Board information: > > > > * I will not be able to make tomorrow's (25 Apr 2006) FDSCo meeting, > > since I will be supervising some work for an office relocation which > > will keep me late at the office. I'll look for the notes and minutes to > > get up to speed. > > Let's cancel for today. > > I'm going to be at the MySQL Users Conference for my $DAY_JOB, so won't > have the attention for the meeting, anyway. With Paul out and Tommy in > medias move, we can't scare up a quorum. Oh yeah, just look at Mr. Latin here. :-D Just glad I didn't miss anything then. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 03:09:20 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:09:20 -0400 Subject: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide" by SamFolkWilliams In-Reply-To: <20060426193505.11500.52210@fedora.linux.duke.edu> References: <20060426193505.11500.52210@fedora.linux.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1146107360.7356.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Comments below: On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 19:35 +0000, fedorawiki-noreply at fedoraproject.org wrote: > The following page has been changed by SamFolkWilliams: > http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [...snip...] > - What is open source, how that affects > + 1. Before you begin the install > + * Decide how to structure your file system > + * Case scenarios > + * Example configurations > + * Decide if you wish to use LVM and/or software RAID > + * Benefits of > + * Hardware requirements > + * Limitations > + * Determine your firewall requirements > + * Overview of how iptables works ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ How much detail here is going to be dependent on the target audience. To determine your target audience, define what knowledge, skills, and abilities a reader must possess for this guide to be useful. I think it would be useful for the contributors to discuss the target audience before filling in too much more detail here. Such a discussion would probably cut down on effort spent arguing over how much information to include. > + * Importance of > + * Example configurations, including info on how to change later on > + * Determine what packages you want or need to install > + * Default, or not default > + * How to update/install software later ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Point to Stuart's yum guide rather than rewriting. We don't want to have to maintain two documents every time something changes in a release. > + * Everything and minimal options (Why no longer available) See numerous threads in f-devel-list... ;-D > - * what is in a distribution (nothing proprietary in Fedora) > - * software lifecycle (major releases twice a year, frequent updates that you can download automatically) > - * the choices you get when you install Fedora (many packages to choose among including several choices for most major functions, up to and including your desktop environment; you can build a very small and simple system or a system that is very rich) > - * how you get help (from the community, not customer service; pointers to other pages about mailinglists and websites; bug-reporting tools that have the additional benefit of letting you see exactly what bugs have been reported and how they are being acted on) > + 1. Post-install planning > + * The Firstboot and basic configuration > + * Overview of package management strategy > + * Overview of basic "Newbie" pointers > + * How to get help > + * What now? (Further reading) Careful here, this is starting to look somewhat repetitive with the Installation Guide! I would recommend everyone read that cover-to-cover to familiarize themselves with the content. No reason you can't argue to move something out of the IG and into the SPG, but again, conserve energy where possible... -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedora-docs at ddeutsch.net Thu Apr 27 05:45:05 2006 From: fedora-docs at ddeutsch.net (Debbie Deutsch) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 01:45:05 -0400 Subject: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide" by SamFolkWilliams In-Reply-To: <1146107360.7356.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060426193505.11500.52210@fedora.linux.duke.edu> <1146107360.7356.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <44505A61.8050008@ddeutsch.net> Paul W. Frields wrote: > Comments below: > > On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 19:35 +0000, fedorawiki-noreply at fedoraproject.org > wrote: >> The following page has been changed by SamFolkWilliams: >> http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > [...snip...] > >> - What is open source, how that affects >> + 1. Before you begin the install >> + * Decide how to structure your file system >> + * Case scenarios >> + * Example configurations >> + * Decide if you wish to use LVM and/or software RAID >> + * Benefits of >> + * Hardware requirements >> + * Limitations >> + * Determine your firewall requirements >> + * Overview of how iptables works > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > How much detail here is going to be dependent on the target audience. > To determine your target audience, define what knowledge, skills, and > abilities a reader must possess for this guide to be useful. > > I think it would be useful for the contributors to discuss the target > audience before filling in too much more detail here. Such a discussion > would probably cut down on effort spent arguing over how much > information to include. > [SNIP] > > Careful here, this is starting to look somewhat repetitive with the > Installation Guide! I would recommend everyone read that cover-to-cover > to familiarize themselves with the content. No reason you can't argue > to move something out of the IG and into the SPG, but again, conserve > energy where possible... > > Yeah, I had been imagining a document that had its primary emphasis getting someone who has lived in the world of Windows oriented and comfortable. That person might be a desktop user who has never installed an operating system before. The would anticipate the inevitable incorrect assumptions before the reader stubbed his virtual toes on them. The document would be mostly about what the reader needs to know and understand and not so much about how to perform any given task. As you say, that's what the installation guide is for. Debbie From sfolkwil at redhat.com Thu Apr 27 13:05:08 2006 From: sfolkwil at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:05:08 -0400 Subject: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide" by SamFolkWilliams In-Reply-To: <44505A61.8050008@ddeutsch.net> References: <20060426193505.11500.52210@fedora.linux.duke.edu> <1146107360.7356.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44505A61.8050008@ddeutsch.net> Message-ID: <20060427130507.GB18364@xander.rdu.redhat.com> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 01:45:05AM -0400, Debbie Deutsch wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Comments below: > > > > On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 19:35 +0000, fedorawiki-noreply at fedoraproject.org > > wrote: > >> The following page has been changed by SamFolkWilliams: > >> http://fedora.linux.duke.edu/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > [...snip...] > > > >> - What is open source, how that affects > >> + 1. Before you begin the install > >> + * Decide how to structure your file system > >> + * Case scenarios > >> + * Example configurations > >> + * Decide if you wish to use LVM and/or software RAID > >> + * Benefits of > >> + * Hardware requirements > >> + * Limitations > >> + * Determine your firewall requirements > >> + * Overview of how iptables works > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > How much detail here is going to be dependent on the target audience. > > To determine your target audience, define what knowledge, skills, and > > abilities a reader must possess for this guide to be useful. > > > > I think it would be useful for the contributors to discuss the target > > audience before filling in too much more detail here. Such a discussion > > would probably cut down on effort spent arguing over how much > > information to include. > > > [SNIP] Yep, sorry it's not clear in the outline -- I meant a lot of these things to be links. My goal here is to address what a lot of new users ask -- from a support perspective, the whole concept of iptables is totally mysterious to new users and causes a lot of frustration. So, this would just be a brief blurb of "what a firewall is in linux" with a link to some other place for more info. > > > > Careful here, this is starting to look somewhat repetitive with the > > Installation Guide! I would recommend everyone read that cover-to-cover > > to familiarize themselves with the content. No reason you can't argue > > to move something out of the IG and into the SPG, but again, conserve > > energy where possible... > > Again, agree. I definitely think people who read the SPG will *need* to read the Installation Guide. I'm trying to anticipate common questions and point to the install guide for further reading. > Yeah, I had been imagining a document that had its primary emphasis > getting someone who has lived in the world of Windows oriented and > comfortable. That person might be a desktop user who has never > installed an operating system before. The would anticipate the > inevitable incorrect assumptions before the reader stubbed his virtual > toes on them. The document would be mostly about what the reader needs > to know and understand and not so much about how to perform any given > task. As you say, that's what the installation guide is for. > Yup - we're on the same page. I will update the outline to reflect places I imagine links should go rather than new content. Sam > Debbie > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- ? Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE ? Red Hat Global Support Services ? Phone: 919/754-4558 ? GPG ID: 1B0D46BA From sfolkwil at redhat.com Thu Apr 27 13:24:03 2006 From: sfolkwil at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:24:03 -0400 Subject: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide" by SamFolkWilliams In-Reply-To: <44505A61.8050008@ddeutsch.net> References: <20060426193505.11500.52210@fedora.linux.duke.edu> <1146107360.7356.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44505A61.8050008@ddeutsch.net> Message-ID: <20060427132403.GC18364@xander.rdu.redhat.com> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 01:45:05AM -0400, Debbie Deutsch wrote: > > > > Yeah, I had been imagining a document that had its primary emphasis > getting someone who has lived in the world of Windows oriented and > comfortable. That person might be a desktop user who has never > installed an operating system before. The would anticipate the > inevitable incorrect assumptions before the reader stubbed his virtual > toes on them. The document would be mostly about what the reader needs > to know and understand and not so much about how to perform any given > task. As you say, that's what the installation guide is for. > > Debbie > Thanks for the feedback. Re-reading what I posted I realize that I got carried away with the bullets. ;) Sam > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- ? Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE ? Red Hat Global Support Services ? Phone: 919/754-4558 ? GPG ID: 1B0D46BA From jlm at magnifisys.com Thu Apr 27 17:10:26 2006 From: jlm at magnifisys.com (James McElhannon ) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:10:26 -0400 Subject: Self-Introduction: James McElhannon Message-ID: <25356060.775311146157825655.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> *** Full legal name (as you use it is fine) James McElhannon *** City, Country Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA *** Profession or Student status I'm a technical product manager for a software company in the international aviation industry. I write a ton of technical documents. *** Company, School, or other affiliation I have a BS in Computer Science, an MBA, and I'm a certified Project Management Professional (PMP) * Your goals in the Fedora Project *** What do you want to write about? I'm open... At first, I saw the 'command line survival guide' that I'd like to claim. *** What other documentation do you want to see published? More documentation for the uninitiated, for those curious Windows users who know that Windows is not the answer, but they are scared... *** Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy? I would prefer to write my own material first, but that would be fine if that's what is needed. *** Anything else special? Sorry, but I can't juggle... :) * Historical qualifications *** What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? I write technical documents at work every day. I've also self published Introduction to SQL, available on LuLu. *** What level and type of computer skills do you have? I have excellent Windows and Unix/Linux skills. *** What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc. I have experience with programming in multiple languages (Visual Basic, Visual C++, C and C++ on Unix and Linux, Pascal, ... I have done GUI and CUI design work. I have extensive experience as a project manager. *** What makes you an excellent match for the project? My education, experience, and desire... *** GPG KEYID and fingerprint -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) mQGiBERQ88ARBAC/QnwoWSOfHrVjAPQpXGLjl7yZhNmRkdTeES/+0Aftvq7RopsH xAcZbSJU1hRPvK0piPN9l52yquPAvElmmoH/HMbWbyDp4axvvFYyy/faaRb3KiN3 OCxoigQoDEgz6EjBpaFGMxvpsdvUSUzfL4265DyiVSAYZ3gxaKgiXaUqgwCghfKn q64p+eiBGbAl/AUj/Sxw7fUD/3ogxEKW9eOoiqP1L7vZ19voRJQnbx+hDOt7zznt lT+u0xScAf4gkauuvO73Y+dmNeSQ8EDi38eEOxrDgM7rKxFjkfZcJVrKXF6UaQ1P GlsJ37sUcdfdTAah5TewGjFyBfOnipUTTbC23xIaz9qfEALkVUMdn1RMPORFXMdq caeGA/9uVK+SoIS8NX0LImqrfAQcCAS8llFdcHjaR/goEWSwPg9A1SuzxF7CiSF1 ja5ZfAJ6W/YAi2FxVaf2pnYnxaPh4hep//WCJHfl/gc7RknQv5AxB3BRYOLjSRbt hXgc7J/NtExE1TKGZG+DS54/gIuBmletbEcmenVh5eERfcM8Y7QlSmFtZXMgTWNF bGhhbm5vbiA8amxtQG1hZ25pZmlzeXMuY29tPohmBBMRAgAmBQJEUPPAAhsDBQkB 4TOABgsJCAcDAgQVAggDBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ7NR57ieH1AzbSgCfaYZRww5r WoakZVDz0SKhc5g8vYUAoIFB86BEG/WV934rRFRWY8iXx7exuQINBERQ89EQCACN KgkputMRo1h/fTf4XLm8+KBmNJTRv5caa2d53thXfdVAbwuYYRcyjNEu5vJiETSh NLUWWaqijCugH0PYbPmLmtY4n5j8tiI0IOpY377ZP7FMxWvPe9YNaXZjbEeoNcsv 2YWKwoxVvVi109t1EAQ+CF6y5tBTEQG+8U3vM7nTOsikB7+96ByaOpjNxqaP8EnC MfsWaEkFLisGw7fQu+1HIO/+geL6EDtRmj6NHeL9S6pGmZ3F2Qoy1z0PbkfVzJ9r QC5gN1YHLCbpcXcwO5SoFLk4KgKrl+Ut2B5yR1ldsakccseDJcBb4fnBEa0SmZQS ZNkHXNsxc29PDzdMRXM3AAMFB/4h0H+baD1BA7RVb2n6CXzQP6cklIodn53V9dPm CBDggwPm6r+A6Bc5P+h5bPZ0U+NdUqaphOIhiZ4ipj5TdY03OPA1QALlmE0gNOMl 7x6FkeqvIuyP2bK0QRQk0TDiqMJP3cpAvHHyTZH2eeUPt/GlU8TRHKGJHqt5looT 9W46AcDSxvAY+n+18j2LprLIMzuHaH/MMQo6mgNnnPQj8mNSRGbxcpyAGhxxPS9r 7oAtaiFB91jcRrpvNVaALAfkUhBqeLIMZGAdEwWgJubz3CSHP0LCiQ7UL58PjH0N GFwX00m7i/+MKmLLT1mD3I58IlzqVtdTA3hI5fTT+g2iTdLZiE8EGBECAA8FAkRQ 89ECGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ7NR57ieH1AyaswCfbPpbttsEt/mmAqPHRw6ncljkPTIA oIGkxlnbTW0utIGVopo1AQ4J8kNm =SxrO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- pub 1024D/2787D40C 2006-04-27 [expires: 2007-04-27] Key fingerprint = CDCC 7B5F E7AA 88C5 EA8B A01F ECD4 79EE 2787 D40C uid James McElhannon sub 2048g/A7677CCA 2006-04-27 [expires: 2007-04-27] *** Be sure that your GPG key is uploaded to pgp.mit.edu. done From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Apr 27 20:49:00 2006 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:49:00 -0500 Subject: It's all gone to POT: the XML strings, that is. Message-ID: <20060427154900.3b2624b5.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Hello, Translators! The first stage of reworking (aka "getting it to work the first time") of the translation toolchain is complete. Time to check it out, translators! Before, we tried very hard to keep every &entity; reference intact within the XML. The idea was that we could use a single translation of the document and FDP entities. The idea was good: be able to change an entity string in a single place and have all XML references pick up the change. The idea just didn't work. The translation tools don't work like that, as far as we understand them. So, I've made two changes in the way that we use the tools. Firstly, all translatable strings are now placed in the "po/${DOCBASE}.pot" file. Previously, we kept the strings from the "${DOC_ENTITIES}.xml" file in its own .POT file. If you have any .POT file OTHER than "po/${DOCBASE}.pot", you can safely delete it. We won't use it any more. Secondly, entity references are no longer preserved in the "po/${DOCBASE}.pot" file. This means that ANY entity reference in the original XML files will be fully-expanded into its replacement text within the .POT file. Yes, this means that you may have to make the same change to the same string in several places around the document, but that is the way it seems to work. As always, please try it out and post any comments, questions, kudos, brickbats, or credit card information to this list. Cheers -- I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have every intention of dying an abuse! From jlm at magnifisys.com Thu Apr 27 20:58:29 2006 From: jlm at magnifisys.com (James McElhannon) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:58:29 -0400 Subject: Self-Introduction: James McElhannon Message-ID: <20654461.783331146171508410.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> OK, so naturally, as a first-time GPG user, I've hosed it up... The info in my original post, and reproduced below with the ">" leaders, is junk. The correct information is immediately below. Sorry. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ pub 1024D/2872D55B 2006-04-27 [expires: 2011-04-26] Key fingerprint = F926 5FC2 C48F 8C43 8C3C EB4E F4A5 8432 2872 D55B uid James McElhannon sub 1024g/EA46BF92 2006-04-27 [expires: 2011-04-26] ++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) mQGiBERRJN0RBAC+GJt1+ue6IXCxgzpw/JZCm7pUgAvVRAEqJVke2FZTqRW1K+ss ue3dhcys3J0S0/8Alg/vDT9fX+4JykzpqvabxizBwrIH1hPZgTOuRg3k6VipcLKL S08AfDWQjqSObPqY1MJAGwpT+ketBkAXio1PRanZepkw/WOuNXAbuX2XtwCgpZrY EA9X7HUERKc6H6dgU0D1Xw8EALLXhrqN/3gxaEW4jy0vYqVIkDwk8mzyMxFFzQJG oqkjWgRRUTch5uFfCb0O5sRS1F2W1Cli49c0dXsYpgijfmjB1FKaIF9dYUur9wFL 03wqpFKM2Qbaw1Tca358uFEYRk3mWdG7XQb4cGWelL6t2hNEytYOr8bPF4/Pyr6G txwzBACq6rzUP/Mwxiq2xq/jZxAznFpsSC3dIReQLcyQn6ke6a/2qkR5rNVroNhY cJ1UnJu+emKwXfYN0xajmPmD49po9RdlUCn/mAFSNsBi7QU5zYNH1leITgV3RSgi kdVb/srfd5sI4d9NpFRXATxdUwlvHBG1X5Is8GFCpnxV/tBzGrQlSmFtZXMgTWNF bGhhbm5vbiA8amxtQG1hZ25pZmlzeXMuY29tPohmBBMRAgAmBQJEUSTdAhsDBQkJ ZgGABgsJCAcDAgQVAggDBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ9KWEMihy1VuFwACgi8hjTL35 /KIBtRXNWo6VA/qng8kAoJdEhs6DzTyc7XOAk2RAWsowG+NvuQENBERRJN8QBADH jUzjp6Pme/AAmWtMhp5oaozMPYA5CNUgtpVTZPOrzMk/hcQuNMQEoTphfvQVHqz8 zIE3+VQrr76iZwfMdkmTEQJBYwV80Re/ZMy8tWINPJxlqct7zF8rDGTCVUh529ep z4J1KMXeROJT6Ei9RQ/FHTf5kZdEJIfZBwdN0dyU3wAECwP/asPtSW18VsxomFDc se2AukWp49r3o0vxJeAF3imVI62oHqYhJm8F0nnsO6A4p+Zkx65k7FngZOJ4oVnc Wf2waiHY761175LY293FNtvknBn6MwaSsmnS8M+7Q8qfG/PnzCR+3VufJvfkkxo3 TnfbPZWHP0m6LOjfNluPHkvuLKmITwQYEQIADwUCRFEk3wIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRD0 pYQyKHLVW3QpAJ4h0cgpCTfT+bxx/sP6uJRICmWzOQCfV1XH51o3qYyCKqeafM13 /LPqBPE= =/yWC -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ++++++++++++++++++++++++ >*** GPG KEYID and fingerprint > >-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- >Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) > >mQGiBERQ88ARBAC/QnwoWSOfHrVjAPQpXGLjl7yZhNmRkdTeES/+0Aftvq7RopsH >xAcZbSJU1hRPvK0piPN9l52yquPAvElmmoH/HMbWbyDp4axvvFYyy/faaRb3KiN3 >OCxoigQoDEgz6EjBpaFGMxvpsdvUSUzfL4265DyiVSAYZ3gxaKgiXaUqgwCghfKn >q64p+eiBGbAl/AUj/Sxw7fUD/3ogxEKW9eOoiqP1L7vZ19voRJQnbx+hDOt7zznt >lT+u0xScAf4gkauuvO73Y+dmNeSQ8EDi38eEOxrDgM7rKxFjkfZcJVrKXF6UaQ1P >GlsJ37sUcdfdTAah5TewGjFyBfOnipUTTbC23xIaz9qfEALkVUMdn1RMPORFXMdq >caeGA/9uVK+SoIS8NX0LImqrfAQcCAS8llFdcHjaR/goEWSwPg9A1SuzxF7CiSF1 >ja5ZfAJ6W/YAi2FxVaf2pnYnxaPh4hep//WCJHfl/gc7RknQv5AxB3BRYOLjSRbt >hXgc7J/NtExE1TKGZG+DS54/gIuBmletbEcmenVh5eERfcM8Y7QlSmFtZXMgTWNF >bGhhbm5vbiA8amxtQG1hZ25pZmlzeXMuY29tPohmBBMRAgAmBQJEUPPAAhsDBQkB >4TOABgsJCAcDAgQVAggDBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ7NR57ieH1AzbSgCfaYZRww5r >WoakZVDz0SKhc5g8vYUAoIFB86BEG/WV934rRFRWY8iXx7exuQINBERQ89EQCACN >KgkputMRo1h/fTf4XLm8+KBmNJTRv5caa2d53thXfdVAbwuYYRcyjNEu5vJiETSh >NLUWWaqijCugH0PYbPmLmtY4n5j8tiI0IOpY377ZP7FMxWvPe9YNaXZjbEeoNcsv >2YWKwoxVvVi109t1EAQ+CF6y5tBTEQG+8U3vM7nTOsikB7+96ByaOpjNxqaP8EnC >MfsWaEkFLisGw7fQu+1HIO/+geL6EDtRmj6NHeL9S6pGmZ3F2Qoy1z0PbkfVzJ9r >QC5gN1YHLCbpcXcwO5SoFLk4KgKrl+Ut2B5yR1ldsakccseDJcBb4fnBEa0SmZQS >ZNkHXNsxc29PDzdMRXM3AAMFB/4h0H+baD1BA7RVb2n6CXzQP6cklIodn53V9dPm >CBDggwPm6r+A6Bc5P+h5bPZ0U+NdUqaphOIhiZ4ipj5TdY03OPA1QALlmE0gNOMl >7x6FkeqvIuyP2bK0QRQk0TDiqMJP3cpAvHHyTZH2eeUPt/GlU8TRHKGJHqt5looT >9W46AcDSxvAY+n+18j2LprLIMzuHaH/MMQo6mgNnnPQj8mNSRGbxcpyAGhxxPS9r >7oAtaiFB91jcRrpvNVaALAfkUhBqeLIMZGAdEwWgJubz3CSHP0LCiQ7UL58PjH0N >GFwX00m7i/+MKmLLT1mD3I58IlzqVtdTA3hI5fTT+g2iTdLZiE8EGBECAA8FAkRQ >89ECGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ7NR57ieH1AyaswCfbPpbttsEt/mmAqPHRw6ncljkPTIA >oIGkxlnbTW0utIGVopo1AQ4J8kNm >=SxrO >-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > >pub 1024D/2787D40C 2006-04-27 [expires: 2007-04-27] > Key fingerprint = CDCC 7B5F E7AA 88C5 EA8B A01F ECD4 79EE 2787 D40C >uid James McElhannon >sub 2048g/A7677CCA 2006-04-27 [expires: 2007-04-27] > >*** Be sure that your GPG key is uploaded to pgp.mit.edu. > >done -- James McElhannon jlm at magnifisys.com www.magnifisys.com From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 22:30:06 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:30:06 -0400 Subject: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide" by SamFolkWilliams In-Reply-To: <20060427132403.GC18364@xander.rdu.redhat.com> References: <20060426193505.11500.52210@fedora.linux.duke.edu> <1146107360.7356.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44505A61.8050008@ddeutsch.net> <20060427132403.GC18364@xander.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1146177006.9875.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 09:24 -0400, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 01:45:05AM -0400, Debbie Deutsch wrote: > > > > > > > Yeah, I had been imagining a document that had its primary emphasis > > getting someone who has lived in the world of Windows oriented and > > comfortable. That person might be a desktop user who has never > > installed an operating system before. The would anticipate the > > inevitable incorrect assumptions before the reader stubbed his virtual > > toes on them. The document would be mostly about what the reader needs > > to know and understand and not so much about how to perform any given > > task. As you say, that's what the installation guide is for. > > > > Debbie > > > > Thanks for the feedback. Re-reading what I posted I realize that I got carried > away with the bullets. ;) Thanks to DocBook, we could easily combine the SPG, the IG, and many other goodies into a combined set, making it easy to link across them. Don't design to that end, but I thought it would be worth mentioning. I'm really happy you guys are excited about this guide -- especially since my own free time has been so short of late! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sfolkwil at redhat.com Fri Apr 28 12:50:42 2006 From: sfolkwil at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:50:42 -0400 Subject: Draft document on burning ISO images In-Reply-To: <1143993360.16611.40.camel@Vigor11> References: <1143898477.3802.804.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1143988389.19590.174.camel@pmac.infradead.org> <1143993360.16611.40.camel@Vigor11> Message-ID: <20060428125042.GA14180@unplugged.rdu.redhat.com> On Sun, Apr 02, 2006 at 04:56:00PM +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 15:33 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > > On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 19:04 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/BurningDiscs > > > > > > This would be a very important document for non technical users > > > attempting to start using Fedora. More content and editorial reviews > > > would be helpful from the lurkers in this list. > > Sorry to chime in late on this thread -- I think this is a very important document and I'd like to link it up with the Draft System Planning Guide; http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SystemPlanningGuide As somehow who supports Linux professionally, I can not tell you how many people I have had to talk to about the proper way to burn an image. This is something completely non-obvious to most users and a massive cause of frustration -- even though we'd like to think it's trivial. Sam > > I think we'd do better to encourage them not to use the ISO images at > > all; instead to do network installation where possible. You get to skip > > the whole 'optical media are unreliable as hell and you need to do the > > media check and still expect random failures' bit that way. > > There definitely seems to be a lot of posts about this (lots of cheap > and nasty blanks ?), and the Media Check seems to confuse as much as it > helps. > > I think that boot disc + network installation depends on having a good > connection, though. Although many people in the UK have something > labelled as "broadband", the standard plans that I've seen only have a > 2Gb a month download limit before additional charges kick in, or less > than 1Mbit bandwidth. Which is OK for updates, but make network installs > less comfortable. I don't know enough about the situation in other > countries to sensible comment there. > > -- > > Stuart Ellis > > stuart at elsn.org > > Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > > GPG key ID: 7098ABEA > GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE Red Hat Global Support Services Phone: 919/754-4558 GPG ID: 1B0D46BA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jlm at magnifisys.com Fri Apr 28 20:50:34 2006 From: jlm at magnifisys.com (James McElhannon) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:50:34 -0500 Subject: TOC for Command Prompt Survival Guide Message-ID: <4452801A.70203@magnifisys.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi All, I wanted to propose the following TOC for the Command Prompt Survival Guide, one of the current Doc Ideas... I would plan on submitting this document to the LDP, too. Their equivalent doc is aging and is lite on details. Please let me know your feedback. - --- There are 5 chapters shown below, with the sections numbered. The Concepts chapter sets forth just enough theory to be able to use the commands below. The Scenario chapter would put forth some common scenarios that people would be faced with. The text would describe the usage of a set of commands to perform a task, cross referenced to the Commonly Used Commands section. The Commonly Used Commands would not be a reproduction of the man pages, but would instead focus on the common usage of the command. The Tools would section would be brief scripts to make some things easier. I would expect that the details of this section would arise during the writing of the rest of the text. Any redundant operations shown during the Scenarios would be candidates. Introduction 1. General introduction Concepts: 1. Shells 2. Executables and Processes 3. stdout, stderr, stdin 4. Scripts 5. Permissions 6. Redirection and Pipes 7. Bash prompt customization Scenarios 1. Handling zip/gz files 2. Handling tar files ... ... Commonly Used Commands: 1. basename 2. bash 3. bunzip 4. bzip 5. cd 6. chgrp 7. chmod 8. chown 9. clear 10. cp 11. cut 12. echo 13. expr 14. find 15. finger 16. grep 17. gunzip 18. gzip 19. head 20. hostname 21. info 22. kill 23. ln 24. ls 25. man 26. mkdir 27. more 28. mv 29. ping 30. popd 31. ps 32. pushd 33. rm 34. rmdir 35. rpm 36. set 37. stty 38. su 39. sudo 40. tail 41. tar 42. test [] 43. traceroute 44. uname 45. wait 46. wc 47. where 48. who am i 49. whoami Tools 1. echodo ... ... - --- - -- James McElhannon jlm at magnifisys.com MagnifiSys, LLC www.magnifisys.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQFEUoAa9KWEMihy1VsRAkRoAKCK6SrTfOj88bimwTbfZwhkd/iIvwCcCosD Yc1vIVhw7MEb2b0k7DEaYgI= =zrQY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 00:17:23 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:17:23 -0400 Subject: TOC for Command Prompt Survival Guide In-Reply-To: <4452801A.70203@magnifisys.com> References: <4452801A.70203@magnifisys.com> Message-ID: <1146269843.23351.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-04-28 at 15:50 -0500, James McElhannon wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi All, > > I wanted to propose the following TOC for the Command Prompt Survival > Guide, one of the current Doc Ideas... > > I would plan on submitting this document to the LDP, too. Their > equivalent doc is aging and is lite on details. > > Please let me know your feedback. [...snip...] Good start, James! I would like to see this in the Wiki... have you applied for an account and so forth? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem/NewAccount Once you have a Fedora account you can register on the wiki and be added to the EditGroup, and participate in the drafting process. We encourage everyone to draft there if they're not comfortable with CVS and DocBook tools. Many eyes watch the wiki and therefore it's a great place to give and get feedback. BTW, I have a coursebook that I wrote several years ago which does much the same thing as this... I will see if I can dig it up and convert it to an open format. I wrote it in MS Word before StarOffice was usable, and WAY before I learned DocBook XML. It probably needs updating, but that might be easier than writing from scratch. Now if I can only find it in the bitbucket... -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sun Apr 30 14:34:37 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 07:34:37 -0700 Subject: I did it! In-Reply-To: <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145672995.3416.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145675466.29561.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4449ACDA.8090305@ddeutsch.org> <1145712933.3046.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1146407677.31410.9.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 09:35 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I would say this is better kept in either the Installation Guide or > elsewhere. Keeping a tight focus for a doc like this is vital; the > organizing principle of the System Planning Guide is not as a procedural > for installations (that's what the Installation Guide does), but rather > a concepts primer for newcomers. It introduces terms and gets people > thinking about what their requirements are for their Fedora system. The > minute they lay hands on the keyboard/mouse, that's where the > Installation Guide and other materials step in. Is there much crossover with material in this guide? http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/admin-guide/ If there are chapters or sections that, rewritten?, would be useful, let me know. I can look into seeing if they are available. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: