From gertjanvinkje at yahoo.es Wed Nov 1 07:31:33 2006 From: gertjanvinkje at yahoo.es (Gertjan Vinkesteijn) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:31:33 +0100 Subject: translating documents to dutch In-Reply-To: <1162067686.14356.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <454359A3.7060304@yahoo.es> <1162067686.14356.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45484D55.6050709@yahoo.es> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sat, 2006-10-28 at 15:22 +0200, Gertjan Vinkesteijjn wrote: >> I am interested in translating user documents info eg. into dutch, also >> manuals pages... > > Hi Gertjan, > > You can find some information at: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N > > However, the fedora.redhat.com site currently provides the Translation > Quick Start Guide, which is referenced in that page. The f.r.c site is > having problems right now but you should be able to look at that guide > by Monday or Tuesday, hopefully. > Dear Paul, http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/documentation-quick-start/ it is there, thank you -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFSE1V5Swirj/B524RAoVNAJ4hGmiG56xrRSxbcDrtLmYoE3GH+QCfbTH6 fNVWap671zIpNCmxedfTBWA= =lClx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ______________________________________________ LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo. Llamadas a fijos y m?viles desde 1 c?ntimo por minuto. http://es.voice.yahoo.com From mcgiwer at fedoraproject.org Wed Nov 1 16:18:11 2006 From: mcgiwer at fedoraproject.org (Pawel Sadowski) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 17:18:11 +0100 Subject: Missing ln-legalnotice file Message-ID: <1162397891.5043.5.camel@redhat> Hi, I have found a misprint in Polish translation of the ln-legalnotice file (http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc6/pl/ln-legalnotice.html) but I can not find it in the current pl.po file. How can I correct it? It is just the one letter but it looks badly, so I would like to change it ;) Regards, Pawel Sadowski From gertjanvinkje at yahoo.es Thu Nov 2 03:43:47 2006 From: gertjanvinkje at yahoo.es (Gertjan Vinkesteijn) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 04:43:47 +0100 Subject: xine-lib xine-ui gxine In-Reply-To: <454786A7.8000103@yahoo.es> References: <45475043.6070504@yahoo.es> <20061031143403.664b9b7f@python3.es.egwn.lan> <454786A7.8000103@yahoo.es> Message-ID: <45496973.5020401@yahoo.es> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Gertjan Vinkesteijn wrote: > Matthias Saou wrote: >> Gertjan Vinkesteijn wrote : >> >>> I have the Subject field programs compiled and working on 64-bits >>> Fedora6, what shall we do with it? >> Errr... watch some videos? :-) >> >> Matthias >> > I went to fedora-dev-list mail group and got the above answer. Of course > I want to watch videos, from non-porno sites. For me is this brrr... > typical, what do you think of the american culture: Is there any (Indira > Ghandi)... Errr, I lived in Texas, and give you a good answer on that, > in german, dutch, french, english and some spanish! fuck... > > Gertjan > I will openly make excuse for this ill remark, especially to Matthias... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFSWlz5Swirj/B524RAnhAAJ9VYhr4kpfVYq9wbnAFlpqUk36+AwCfd0Uc J/bAQJ27H/zxpqVCJ5LxbtI= =5nf/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ______________________________________________ LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo. Llamadas a fijos y m?viles desde 1 c?ntimo por minuto. http://es.voice.yahoo.com From docs-list at fedoralinks.org Thu Nov 2 06:28:37 2006 From: docs-list at fedoralinks.org (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 00:28:37 -0600 Subject: Self-Introduction: Jason Cross In-Reply-To: <4546C8B6.7050806@mchsi.com> References: <4546C8B6.7050806@mchsi.com> Message-ID: <45499015.7020208@fedoralinks.org> Jason Cross wrote: > Self Introduction: > Jason Aaron Cross > Waite Park, Minnesota, USA > Howdy Neighbor! -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Docs Projects FDSCo http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject From nikosx at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 12:40:35 2006 From: nikosx at gmail.com (Nikos Charonitakis) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:40:35 +0200 Subject: Greek translation is missing in "about fedora" page Message-ID: <9366c3f50611020440m3b97a8d9k3085d7e6dacfed7b@mail.gmail.com> Although this page is translated in Greek (actually release notes are 100% translated) greek text is missing here. nikos From gertjanvinkje at yahoo.es Thu Nov 2 14:05:37 2006 From: gertjanvinkje at yahoo.es (Gertjan Vinkesteijn) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 15:05:37 +0100 Subject: Self-Introduction: Gertjan (gvinky) Vinkesteijn In-Reply-To: <45499015.7020208@fedoralinks.org> References: <4546C8B6.7050806@mchsi.com> <45499015.7020208@fedoralinks.org> Message-ID: <4549FB31.1060904@yahoo.es> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > Jason Cross wrote: >> Self Introduction: >> Jason Aaron Cross >> Waite Park, Minnesota, USA >> > > Howdy Neighbor! > Goedenmorgen Pal... Skol ! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFSfsx5Swirj/B524RAjLmAJ4rPppqyTI9Wcl6++Azw+K4r1EQOgCfQ9lt VLzE9RzlLp9uBwEvNy+mRQA= =S6EY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ______________________________________________ LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo. Llamadas a fijos y m?viles desde 1 c?ntimo por minuto. http://es.voice.yahoo.com From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 02:40:34 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 21:40:34 -0500 Subject: Navigation links for DUG Draft pages In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0610292331se85930g16a0aa9c38c8a193@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0610292331se85930g16a0aa9c38c8a193@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1162521634.5826.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-10-30 at 10:31 +0300, John Babich wrote: > Paul / Karsten: > > Now that we are directing people to the Desktop User Guide in the FC6 > default home page in Firefox, I suggest that we add navigation links > (such > as top, previous, next) to make it easier to get around the DUG in the > wiki. > > I can appreciate not using these controls when the goal was to produce > valid > Docbook code. Since the emphasis is now on leaving the DUG in wiki > format, I suggest we make the wiki viewing experience as pleasant as > possible. > This is especially important for the new users who are our target > audience. > > We can always strip these out if and when we want to generate > documents > in other formats. Is there already an approach in practice for this > facility? Not one of which I'm aware. If no one has objections, and you decide to create these links, try to make it something (1) simple, (2) homologous, and (therefore?) (3) easy to deal with programmatically, i.e. with a processing script. That's my only suggestion! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 02:52:19 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 21:52:19 -0500 Subject: Browser splash module Message-ID: <1162522339.5826.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> For FC7 we should try to get the splash page moved to its own module. This makes life much easier for smaller translation groups (see recent threads on f-trans-l). I think someone else brought up this idea earlier but there was no time to get into FC6 given the various freeze schedules. Anyone see a big problem with doing it for FC7? I will follow up on this with the release engineers if not. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 08:19:08 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 11:19:08 +0300 Subject: Navigation links for DUG Draft pages In-Reply-To: <1162521634.5826.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <9d2c731f0610292331se85930g16a0aa9c38c8a193@mail.gmail.com> <1162521634.5826.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611030019y7b472877k5eef29c60b102d98@mail.gmail.com> Paul: I will try to do some simple controls that can be readily identified and easily commented out. John Babich GPG KEYID and Fingerprint pub 1024D/42AF1331 2006-08-12 [expires: 2008-08-11] Key fingerprint = CE8E 40BD 5CB8 8437 787F 8F57 D517 C1DF 42AF 1331 uid John M. Babich (Fedora Project) < jmbabich gmail com > sub 2048g/9C81B068 2006-08-12 [expires: 2008-08-11] On 11/3/06, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-10-30 at 10:31 +0300, John Babich wrote: > > Paul / Karsten: > > > > Now that we are directing people to the Desktop User Guide in the FC6 > > default home page in Firefox, I suggest that we add navigation links > > (such > > as top, previous, next) to make it easier to get around the DUG in the > > wiki. > > > > I can appreciate not using these controls when the goal was to produce > > valid > > Docbook code. Since the emphasis is now on leaving the DUG in wiki > > format, I suggest we make the wiki viewing experience as pleasant as > > possible. > > This is especially important for the new users who are our target > > audience. > > > > We can always strip these out if and when we want to generate > > documents > > in other formats. Is there already an approach in practice for this > > facility? > > Not one of which I'm aware. If no one has objections, and you decide to > create these links, try to make it something (1) simple, (2) homologous, > and (therefore?) (3) easy to deal with programmatically, i.e. with a > processing script. That's my only suggestion! > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board > Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markmc34 at verizon.net Fri Nov 3 17:11:39 2006 From: markmc34 at verizon.net (Markus McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:11:39 -0500 Subject: F.U.G Link Suggestion Message-ID: <33757DCC-947E-4AD7-8C75-47E099EE7F23@verizon.net> There should be a link to a page of Fedora Users Groups all over the world on either the Main Fedora Page OR a link to FedoraForum which would have the Users Groups listed... I hope to start a FUG in my town of Hudson, MA within a year... Mark McLaughlin From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Nov 3 18:46:49 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 00:16:49 +0530 Subject: F.U.G Link Suggestion In-Reply-To: <33757DCC-947E-4AD7-8C75-47E099EE7F23@verizon.net> References: <33757DCC-947E-4AD7-8C75-47E099EE7F23@verizon.net> Message-ID: <454B8E99.9090508@fedoraproject.org> Markus McLaughlin wrote: > There should be a link to a page of Fedora Users Groups all over the > world on either the Main Fedora Page OR a link to FedoraForum which > would have the Users Groups listed... > > I hope to start a FUG in my town of Hudson, MA within a year... > What would be the advantage of a user group specific to Fedora as opposed to discussing Fedora more openly in the Linux user groups that already existed all over the world? Rahul From dimitris at glezos.com Sat Nov 4 13:46:36 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 13:46:36 +0000 Subject: Browser splash module In-Reply-To: <1162522339.5826.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1162522339.5826.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <454C99BC.2010106@glezos.com> O/H Paul W. Frields ??????: > For FC7 we should try to get the splash page moved to its own module. > This makes life much easier for smaller translation groups (see recent > threads on f-trans-l). I think someone else brought up this idea > earlier but there was no time to get into FC6 given the various freeze > schedules. I agree, it's better to keep it independent from release-notes. I'd be glad to help on this. -d > Anyone see a big problem with doing it for FC7? I will follow up on > this with the release engineers if not. -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From markmc34 at verizon.net Sat Nov 4 23:12:22 2006 From: markmc34 at verizon.net (Markus McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 18:12:22 -0500 Subject: Hudson Linux Club Announcement Message-ID: <8E9883F1-6368-4ABB-B687-04C859D70952@verizon.net> I renamed the group : Hudson Linux Club, I hope to at least enlist High School Teens who love using computers to learn and try Linux esp. Fedora Core 6.... More details later... Mark McLaughlin - GO BC! From ckshayin1971 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 5 03:26:44 2006 From: ckshayin1971 at yahoo.co.uk (Shayin C K) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 08:56:44 +0530 Subject: Self-Introduction: Shayin C K Message-ID: <454D59F4.4090409@yahoo.co.uk> 1. Full legal name: Shayin C K * City, Country: Bhusawal, India * Profession: Government Employee * Company: Ordnance Factory, Bhusawal * Your goals in the Fedora Project o What do you want to write about?: Fedora, getting started o What other documentation do you want to see published?: Installing new software in Linux o Do you want to edit for grammar/writing and/or technical accuracy?: Yes o Anything else special?: No * Historical qualifications o What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past?: None, this is the first time o What level and type of computer skills do you have? + Level: Guess I am a little above a beginner + Type: I have dabbled a little into programming. I am not sure that makes me able to programme at such a high level. But I have been using Linux since five years and Linux exclusively(no Windows) since last 2 years. Hope that counts. o What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc. + o What makes you an excellent match for the project? + Proficiency in English + I can bring a non-techie's perspective into documentation * GPG KEYID and fingerprint o GPG Key ID:53B0062E o GPG finger print:AE08 A7F5 6FD9 3F8C FC20 B397 C545 7D03 53B0 062E Regards Shayin C K -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 252 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From splinux at fedoraproject.org Sun Nov 5 10:08:36 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 11:08:36 +0100 Subject: Self-Introduction: Shayin C K In-Reply-To: <454D59F4.4090409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <454D59F4.4090409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Welcome on board ;-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Nov 6 15:59:33 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 07:59:33 -0800 Subject: Self-Introduction: Shayin C K In-Reply-To: <454D59F4.4090409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <454D59F4.4090409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1162828773.27328.289.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2006-11-05 at 08:56 +0530, Shayin C K wrote: > 1. > > Full legal name: Shayin C K Welcome. :) > What do you want to write about?: Fedora, getting started > > o > > What other documentation do you want to see published?: > Installing new software in Linux We have these documents that are started: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/ I think we need to decide, as a group, which to focus on. What from there is interesting to you? One other question -- are you interested in finding for yourself what you want to do, or would you like some direction? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Nov 6 16:01:48 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:01:48 -0800 Subject: Browser splash module In-Reply-To: <1162522339.5826.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1162522339.5826.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1162828909.27328.293.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-11-02 at 21:52 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > For FC7 we should try to get the splash page moved to its own module. > This makes life much easier for smaller translation groups (see recent > threads on f-trans-l). I think someone else brought up this idea > earlier but there was no time to get into FC6 given the various freeze > schedules. > > Anyone see a big problem with doing it for FC7? I will follow up on > this with the release engineers if not. On a related note, when we send out an update to fedora-release-notes, I'd like to update the link to the DUG to *not* go to the Docs/Drafts/ location. I didn't think about it until John Babich pointed it out to me; we're sort-of stuck with that URL or having to do a big "Real Document Here" link from that page. Ugh. Shall I make the change in CVS when the DUG has been "moved" to Docs/? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Nov 6 16:04:46 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:04:46 -0800 Subject: Missing ln-legalnotice file In-Reply-To: <1162397891.5043.5.camel@redhat> References: <1162397891.5043.5.camel@redhat> Message-ID: <1162829086.27328.300.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-11-01 at 17:18 +0100, Pawel Sadowski wrote: > Hi, > > I have found a misprint in Polish translation of the ln-legalnotice file > (http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc6/pl/ln-legalnotice.html) > but I can not find it in the current pl.po file. How can I correct it? > It is just the one letter but it looks badly, so I would like to change > it ;) I lost track of this after our IRC discussion; did you find this file in the docs-common module? I think this is covered here: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/translation-quick-start-guide/en/sn_translating_docs.html#sn-creating-common thx - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Nov 6 16:19:24 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:19:24 -0800 Subject: what next? Message-ID: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> We now have a small handful of regular documents to keep updated for each release: release notes; Installation Guide; Desktop User Guide. We also have other documents that get occasional updates, when needed or prodded. Looking here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts http://fedora.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs What is missing? * Do we need to divide into more help for new-to-Fedora users? * Should we put more energy into focusing on systems administrators who are new to Fedora and/or Linux? * How about updating our own Documentation Guide? * There are other guides such as the Packaging Guide and the Developers Guide that could use updating or editing; do we want to adopt these and begin a highly technical interaction with Fedora developers? We have a nice influx of new writers, and I'm curious where we all think we should go next. Let's discuss. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Nov 6 16:29:02 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:29:02 -0800 Subject: Release notes for the next release In-Reply-To: <4546A083.8080905@fedoraproject.org> References: <4546A083.8080905@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1162830542.27328.317.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 06:31 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Can I start doing changes directly to the wiki for the next text release > or are we planning to do any release note updates for FC6? We are planning a release notes update, but we are not going to do a Wiki -> XML conversion. Instead, we'll check the various updates made to the pages and manually carry them into the XML (a visual diff). > The only major change that I wanted to get to the wider community is the > list of common bugs and I did a separate announcement for that. That's a good one to include right in the first few paragraphs. I also linked it from the f.r.c/docs/release-notes page. > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2006-October/msg00015.html > > Is there anything else that requires a package update or can I proceed > with the changes for the next release? Not sure yet. You might just want to keep a pile of change notes in RahulSundaram namespace and migrate them over later. Or just include a ## comment that the changes are for FC7 and we'll ignore them in our visual diff. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Nov 6 16:33:12 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:33:12 -0800 Subject: Navigation links for DUG Draft pages In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611030019y7b472877k5eef29c60b102d98@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0610292331se85930g16a0aa9c38c8a193@mail.gmail.com> <1162521634.5826.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611030019y7b472877k5eef29c60b102d98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1162830793.27328.320.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 11:19 +0300, John Babich wrote: > Paul: > > I will try to do some simple controls that can be readily identified > and easily commented out. These look pretty good. I adjusted it to use a table to look a little nicer and more like the controls in the docs from DocBook. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 16:44:00 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 19:44:00 +0300 Subject: Navigation links for DUG Draft pages In-Reply-To: <1162830793.27328.320.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <9d2c731f0610292331se85930g16a0aa9c38c8a193@mail.gmail.com> <1162521634.5826.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611030019y7b472877k5eef29c60b102d98@mail.gmail.com> <1162830793.27328.320.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611060844k12628f4eq5b3471ac90b937e9@mail.gmail.com> Karsten: The controls in a table format look better. Nice job. John Babich GPG KEYID and Fingerprint pub 1024D/42AF1331 2006-08-12 [expires: 2008-08-11] Key fingerprint = CE8E 40BD 5CB8 8437 787F 8F57 D517 C1DF 42AF 1331 uid John M. Babich (Fedora Project) < jmbabich gmail com > sub 2048g/9C81B068 2006-08-12 [expires: 2008-08-11] On 11/6/06, Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 11:19 +0300, John Babich wrote: > > Paul: > > > > I will try to do some simple controls that can be readily identified > > and easily commented out. > > These look pretty good. I adjusted it to use a table to look a little > nicer and more like the controls in the docs from DocBook. > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project > Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 > ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 17:03:20 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 12:03:20 -0500 Subject: Missing ln-legalnotice file In-Reply-To: <1162829086.27328.300.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1162397891.5043.5.camel@redhat> <1162829086.27328.300.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1162832600.12372.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 08:04 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2006-11-01 at 17:18 +0100, Pawel Sadowski wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have found a misprint in Polish translation of the ln-legalnotice file > > (http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc6/pl/ln-legalnotice.html) > > but I can not find it in the current pl.po file. How can I correct it? > > It is just the one letter but it looks badly, so I would like to change > > it ;) > > I lost track of this after our IRC discussion; did you find this file in > the docs-common module? I think this is covered here: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/translation-quick-start-guide/en/sn_translating_docs.html#sn-creating-common I saw the correction in CVS not long ago. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From cpanceac at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 17:36:47 2006 From: cpanceac at gmail.com (cornel panceac) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 19:36:47 +0200 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: i personally miss docs for: vpn (interaction wih m$), personal video recording, authentication/integration of linux clients in active directory, fedora directory server, getting address book from microsoft exchange, etc. also may be interesting one introduction to linux using fedora. also introduction to programming (C, gtk, qt, etc). does all this look to you like the old linux cookbook using fedora? what if: instead saving the tips and tricks in our email account or elsewhere, we put them in one common place on fedoraproject.org? 2006/11/6, Karsten Wade : > We now have a small handful of regular documents to keep updated for > each release: release notes; Installation Guide; Desktop User Guide. We > also have other documents that get occasional updates, when needed or > prodded. > > Looking here: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs > > What is missing? > > * Do we need to divide into more help for new-to-Fedora users? > * Should we put more energy into focusing on systems administrators who > are new to Fedora and/or Linux? > * How about updating our own Documentation Guide? > * There are other guides such as the Packaging Guide and the Developers > Guide that could use updating or editing; do we want to adopt these and > begin a highly technical interaction with Fedora developers? > > We have a nice influx of new writers, and I'm curious where we all think > we should go next. Let's discuss. :) > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project > Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 > ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > From dimitris at glezos.com Mon Nov 6 17:17:54 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:17:54 +0000 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > We now have a small handful of regular documents to keep updated for > each release: release notes; Installation Guide; Desktop User Guide. We > also have other documents that get occasional updates, when needed or > prodded. > > Looking here: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs > > What is missing? > > * Do we need to divide into more help for new-to-Fedora users? > * Should we put more energy into focusing on systems administrators who > are new to Fedora and/or Linux? > * How about updating our own Documentation Guide? > * There are other guides such as the Packaging Guide and the Developers > Guide that could use updating or editing; do we want to adopt these and > begin a highly technical interaction with Fedora developers? > > We have a nice influx of new writers, and I'm curious where we all think > we should go next. Let's discuss. :) I believe we should try to organize our docs in a way that they could be combined into one document (Fedora Handbook?). We have talked about this in the past: this should be developed in a modular way so that each document (chapter) has an editor and some writers. See a recent discussion at [1], [2]: [1]: http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=125807 [2]: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-October/msg00081.html The goal should be to ship a new guide with each release that will be available in PDF [3]. If we succeed in this, then we will have a printable manual for Fedora -- something very important IMHO for any person's bookshelf. [3]: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tools/PDFconversion Having such a goal will give us a vision much greater than "just a doc on a subpage of our website". I believe that it's importance will be greater than the sum of the current's docs importance; for example, it could become something that the FreeMedia program could ship for free too, or ambassadors hand it (or parts of it) at events and we will have to have it ready by the release date. One easy way to handle this would be the wiki, like the Beats with a clear hierarchy that has cross-references between chapters. This way, we could monitor the changes and docs members could "maintain" chapters. If we go with the wiki-way, we can have people chip in here and there more easily. Some sample contents: * Introduction - The Fedora Project + What is Fedora, FOSS, History + Getting help, Communicating, Participating - Packages - Glossary (jargon-buster) * Fedora Core 7: Tour, Release notes * Installing Fedora Core * Using Fedora's desktop * System administration * Tips and tricks * FAQ And here are some more references: * TLDP guides [4] * Old "Linux Manuals and Documentation" page [5] * Gentoo Linux x86 Handbook [6] * Debian GNU/Linux Desktop Survival Guide [7] [4]: http://tldp.org/guides.html [5]: http://www.estart.co.za/linux_doc.html [6]: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1 [7]: http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/ My 2 cents. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From bela.pesics at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 19:28:37 2006 From: bela.pesics at gmail.com (Bela Pesics) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 20:28:37 +0100 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> Message-ID: On 11/6/06, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > Some sample contents: > > * Introduction > - The Fedora Project > + What is Fedora, FOSS, History > + Getting help, Communicating, Participating > - Packages > - Glossary (jargon-buster) > * Fedora Core 7: Tour, Release notes > * Installing Fedora Core > * Using Fedora's desktop > * System administration > * Tips and tricks > * FAQ > > And here are some more references: > > * TLDP guides [4] > * Old "Linux Manuals and Documentation" page [5] > * Gentoo Linux x86 Handbook [6] Pretty nice examples, consider the structure of these as well: http://www.freebsd.org/docs.html http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ I can also imagine using http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/ for something. I am curious if the referenced materials could be used to put together a handbook without double efforts in a efficient way. And finally don't forget http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/ref-guide/ http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/security-guide/ (e.g. the vpn question) http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/step-guide/ Obviously these are not fedora docs and most people using fedora know about them, however not everybody, and these are not compatible everywhere, but I am sure there are some useful peaces. So they should be referenced somehow. (sometimes better than empty wiki pages) In addition I could see a current sysconfig documentation with comments and examples very useful, that would solve many problems. Bela > * Debian GNU/Linux Desktop Survival Guide [7] > > [4]: http://tldp.org/guides.html > [5]: http://www.estart.co.za/linux_doc.html > [6]: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1 > [7]: http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/ > > > My 2 cents. > > -d > > > -- > Dimitris Glezos > Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B > http://dimitris.glezos.com/ > > "He who gives up functionality for ease of use > loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) > -- > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From kwade at redhat.com Tue Nov 7 13:51:29 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 05:51:29 -0800 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1162907490.27328.362.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 17:17 +0000, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > I believe we should try to organize our docs in a way that they could be > combined into one document (Fedora Handbook?). We have talked about this > in the past: this should be developed in a modular way so that each > document (chapter) has an editor and some writers. See a recent > discussion at [1], [2]: > > [1]: http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=125807 > [2]: > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-October/msg00081.html +1 That has been the goal for about ... 18 months? Looking at your outline, we have a large amount of that work done already - installation, desktop usage, release notes, FAQ. I've hesitated at taking on a large project for a single document output that requires so many people to make it happen. For the first time in this project's history, I think we can do it. It means many of you are going to need to learn to write in a consistent style using a common voice and common markup. But the momentum is here as well as the need, and obviously we are desiring a single, unified Fedora Handbook. :) There are still tools we need in place to make this work right (Plone, PDF toolchain, Wiki <-> XML), but these are just implementation details. > The goal should be to ship a new guide with each release that will be > available in PDF [3]. If we succeed in this, then we will have a > printable manual for Fedora -- something very important IMHO for any > person's bookshelf. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Handbook Let's work out the structure and other process details/tasks there. > [3]: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tools/PDFconversion > > Having such a goal will give us a vision much greater than "just a doc > on a subpage of our website". I believe that it's importance will be > greater than the sum of the current's docs importance; for example, it > could become something that the FreeMedia program could ship for free > too, or ambassadors hand it (or parts of it) at events and we will have > to have it ready by the release date. +1 > One easy way to handle this would be the wiki, like the Beats with a > clear hierarchy that has cross-references between chapters. This way, we > could monitor the changes and docs members could "maintain" chapters. If > we go with the wiki-way, we can have people chip in here and there more > easily. Yes and no. Until we have a entirely Wiki front-end to DocBook, there is some content that we are going to have to work on outside of the Wiki. The Installation Guide comes to mind here; converting it to the Wiki losses much of the semantic markup, and since we'll have to convert it back out eventually, I don't think it is worth the effort for the small amount of additional contributions we'd get via the Wiki. What we could look at doing is a "scratch" conversion, that is, make a Wiki version of some of the XML content, then do a semi-manual conversion of the content back into the XML in CVS. Other content we may choose to have live on the Wiki as the source content. > Some sample contents: I moved all this to the DocsProject/Handbook page to collaborate on it. :) - Karsten > * Introduction > - The Fedora Project > + What is Fedora, FOSS, History > + Getting help, Communicating, Participating > - Packages > - Glossary (jargon-buster) > * Fedora Core 7: Tour, Release notes > * Installing Fedora Core > * Using Fedora's desktop > * System administration > * Tips and tricks > * FAQ > > And here are some more references: > > * TLDP guides [4] > * Old "Linux Manuals and Documentation" page [5] > * Gentoo Linux x86 Handbook [6] > * Debian GNU/Linux Desktop Survival Guide [7] > > [4]: http://tldp.org/guides.html > [5]: http://www.estart.co.za/linux_doc.html > [6]: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1 > [7]: http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/ > > > My 2 cents. > > -d > > > -- > Dimitris Glezos > Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B > http://dimitris.glezos.com/ > > "He who gives up functionality for ease of use > loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) > -- > -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Nov 7 13:58:13 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 05:58:13 -0800 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 20:28 +0100, Bela Pesics wrote: > Pretty nice examples, consider the structure of these as well: > > http://www.freebsd.org/docs.html > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ Ah, good ol' DocBook XML, how nice it is for making books. :) > I can also imagine using http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/ for something. I > am curious if the referenced materials could be used to put together a > handbook without double efforts in a efficient way. None of that content is directly relevant to Fedora; to make it relevant either requires a user who can make the mental switches, or a writer who edits the content to make it fit. Also, I don't think that content is licensed for us to use in any way other than to read it. But ... hmm ... there has been discussion in the past of having a kbase.fedoraproject.org that is a stand-alone knowledgebase. If we opened it to all Fedora account holders and had kbase articles queued for this team to edit (part of a workflow), maybe we could build up something very useful. I could see many discussions on e.g. fedora-list or fedoraforum.org being worth migrating into a kbase article. So, this is an idea to follow, but not sure if we can directly connect such live content into a handbook. Certainly as a source for inspiration, such as finding out the most commonly asked questions to give an idea of what people need us to write about. > And finally don't forget > > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/ref-guide/ > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/security-guide/ > (e.g. the vpn question) > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/step-guide/ Heh, I could never forget those. :) > Obviously these are not fedora docs and most people using fedora know > about them, however not everybody, and these are not compatible > everywhere, but I am sure there are some useful peaces. So they should > be referenced somehow. (sometimes better than empty wiki pages) We may be able to fold some of that content directly in, rewritten to match Fedora. Let's not make any plans that require that content, which is too bad since it would provide such a huge base to work from :(, but let's be prepared to be surprised. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From samfw at redhat.com Tue Nov 7 14:09:26 2006 From: samfw at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 09:09:26 -0500 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1162908566.5536.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 05:58 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 20:28 +0100, Bela Pesics wrote: > > > Pretty nice examples, consider the structure of these as well: > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/docs.html > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ > > Ah, good ol' DocBook XML, how nice it is for making books. :) > > > I can also imagine using http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/ for something. I > > am curious if the referenced materials could be used to put together a > > handbook without double efforts in a efficient way. > > None of that content is directly relevant to Fedora; to make it relevant > either requires a user who can make the mental switches, or a writer who > edits the content to make it fit. Also, I don't think that content is > licensed for us to use in any way other than to read it. > > But ... hmm ... there has been discussion in the past of having a > kbase.fedoraproject.org that is a stand-alone knowledgebase. If we > opened it to all Fedora account holders and had kbase articles queued > for this team to edit (part of a workflow), maybe we could build up > something very useful. I could see many discussions on e.g. fedora-list > or fedoraforum.org being worth migrating into a kbase article. > +1 on this. I would really like to see a kbase for Fedora. I think it's an excellent way to organize a large number of targeted how-to articles. It can also be a lot easier for a contributor to write a brief kbase than to get involved with a larger "guide" type of document. Then, guide writers can pull from the kbase for ideas as well. > So, this is an idea to follow, but not sure if we can directly connect > such live content into a handbook. Certainly as a source for > inspiration, such as finding out the most commonly asked questions to > give an idea of what people need us to write about. > > > And finally don't forget > > > > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/ref-guide/ > > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/security-guide/ > > (e.g. the vpn question) > > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/step-guide/ > > Heh, I could never forget those. :) > > > Obviously these are not fedora docs and most people using fedora know > > about them, however not everybody, and these are not compatible > > everywhere, but I am sure there are some useful peaces. So they should > > be referenced somehow. (sometimes better than empty wiki pages) > > We may be able to fold some of that content directly in, rewritten to > match Fedora. Let's not make any plans that require that content, which > is too bad since it would provide such a huge base to work from :(, but > let's be prepared to be surprised. > > - Karsten > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE Global Support Services -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Tue Nov 7 14:46:49 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:46:49 +0000 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <1162908566.5536.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> <1162908566.5536.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45509C59.3060304@glezos.com> Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 05:58 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: >> But ... hmm ... there has been discussion in the past of having a >> kbase.fedoraproject.org that is a stand-alone knowledgebase. If we >> opened it to all Fedora account holders and had kbase articles queued >> for this team to edit (part of a workflow), maybe we could build up >> something very useful. I could see many discussions on e.g. fedora-list >> or fedoraforum.org being worth migrating into a kbase article. >> > +1 on this. I would really like to see a kbase for Fedora. I think it's > an excellent way to organize a large number of targeted how-to articles. > It can also be a lot easier for a contributor to write a brief kbase > than to get involved with a larger "guide" type of document. Then, guide > writers can pull from the kbase for ideas as well. I think it would be better to avoid having too much information in FAQ-style, since although referencable, they are not very readable or usable as a manual. On the other hand, it would be great if we had that information in the guides/chapters and compile a set of FAQ that the answer is like "More information for this can be found . For customizing it, see Chapter , paragraph ". I believe the most difficult part of doing the Handbook would be to decide on a good hierarchy that strikes a good balance between usability/quality and reference-able. >>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/ref-guide/ >>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/security-guide/ >>> (e.g. the vpn question) >>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ >>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/step-guide/ >> Heh, I could never forget those. :) >> >>> Obviously these are not fedora docs and most people using fedora know >>> about them, however not everybody, and these are not compatible >>> everywhere, but I am sure there are some useful peaces. So they should >>> be referenced somehow. (sometimes better than empty wiki pages) >> We may be able to fold some of that content directly in, rewritten to >> match Fedora. Let's not make any plans that require that content, which >> is too bad since it would provide such a huge base to work from :(, but >> let's be prepared to be surprised. Who should we contact to move some strings to free those docs? It would be *great* if we could use them. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From markmc34 at verizon.net Tue Nov 7 17:33:14 2006 From: markmc34 at verizon.net (Markus McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 12:33:14 -0500 Subject: Vote for Fedora Core 6, paid for by Red Hat..... Message-ID: <4BEE93EA-1273-454B-BD80-87FB95905EB1@verizon.net> If you live in America, get out and vote, VOTE FOR FEDORA CORE 6 AS YOUR O.S. OF CHOICE! Markus McLaughlin - marknetproductionsentrance.blogspot.com From dimitris at glezos.com Tue Nov 7 18:46:10 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 18:46:10 +0000 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4550D472.3070307@glezos.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 20:28 +0100, Bela Pesics wrote: >> [...] >> I can also imagine using http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/ for something. I >> am curious if the referenced materials could be used to put together a >> handbook without double efforts in a efficient way. > > [...] > But ... hmm ... there has been discussion in the past of having a > kbase.fedoraproject.org that is a stand-alone knowledgebase. If we > opened it to all Fedora account holders and had kbase articles queued > for this team to edit (part of a workflow), maybe we could build up > something very useful. I could see many discussions on e.g. fedora-list > or fedoraforum.org being worth migrating into a kbase article. > > So, this is an idea to follow, but not sure if we can directly connect > such live content into a handbook. Certainly as a source for > inspiration, such as finding out the most commonly asked questions to > give an idea of what people need us to write about. So, as I see it we need a balance between a solid solution like "everything in Docbook" or a usable solution like "everything in the wiki or in a kbase". With the first approach *publication/maintainability* is easier and more simple but with the second the actual *writing* is. Second has advantages like better monitoring/live results, but with the cost of less functionality and a cost overhead for producing the final form. With the MoinDocbook we try to do a little of both but it seems that the transition from wiki to Docbook is not as easy nor as solid as it sounds (correct me if I'm wrong here). The problem could be that we are trying to maintain the content in two forms instead of one with just two front-ends (the web one and the cvs-checkout/emacs one). I'll throw another idea on the table (probably a bit bold too), since now it's the best time to do it. Maybe a live web front-end to the actual Docbook code in CVS/SVN would be a better solution? Let's say, we can see live the Docbook results and edit individual paragraphs, with each edit resulting in CVS commits? If we hook this up with the accounts system, everybody will be able to chip in like with the Beats system, and the result would be maintainable with the power of Docobok/CVS (no need to convert). I searched a bit and found a project that does exactly that: http://doc-book.sourceforge.net I don't know if it's worth it (the customizing etc.), but it could be a candidate to substitute the wiki <-> docbook conversion. It is written in PHP, it uses xmltproc and friends, it seems to support multiple languages, content approving, intermediate docbook-focused syntax (or docbook). Last update was 1.5 year ago. Actually, a month ago a similar discussion was made on Mark Shuttleworth's weblog under a post named "Writing a book collaboratively": http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/59 It seems that the above project was proposed as a good candidate. So, maybe this could be a good candidate for a joint project between the Ubuntu and Fedora teams? :) -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From ckshayin1971 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 8 03:55:22 2006 From: ckshayin1971 at yahoo.co.uk (Shayin C K) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 09:25:22 +0530 Subject: What I want to write about In-Reply-To: <20061106170026.D182673CBC@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20061106170026.D182673CBC@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4551552A.8020804@yahoo.co.uk> fedora-docs-list-request at redhat.com wrote: > Send fedora-docs-list mailing list submissions to > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > fedora-docs-list-request at redhat.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > fedora-docs-list-owner at redhat.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of fedora-docs-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Self-Introduction: Shayin C K (Karsten Wade) > 2. Re: Browser splash module (Karsten Wade) > 3. Re: Missing ln-legalnotice file (Karsten Wade) > 4. what next? (Karsten Wade) > 5. Re: Release notes for the next release (Karsten Wade) > 6. Re: Navigation links for DUG Draft pages (Karsten Wade) > 7. Re: Navigation links for DUG Draft pages (John Babich) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 07:59:33 -0800 > From: Karsten Wade > Subject: Re: Self-Introduction: Shayin C K > To: For participants of the Documentation Project > > Message-ID: <1162828773.27328.289.camel at erato.phig.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Sun, 2006-11-05 at 08:56 +0530, Shayin C K wrote: > >> 1. >> >> Full legal name: Shayin C K >> > > Welcome. :) > >> What do you want to write about?: Fedora, getting started >> >> o >> >> What other documentation do you want to see published?: >> Installing new software in Linux >> > > We have these documents that are started: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/ > > I think we need to decide, as a group, which to focus on. What from > there is interesting to you? > > One other question -- are you interested in finding for yourself what > you want to do, or would you like some direction? > > - Karsten > I went through the Drafts as you suggested. I think I would like to start working with Getting Started Guide. Regards Shayin C K -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 252 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From ckshayin1971 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 8 03:55:56 2006 From: ckshayin1971 at yahoo.co.uk (Shayin C K) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 09:25:56 +0530 Subject: PGP key, changing Message-ID: <4551554C.2000207@yahoo.co.uk> Hello everyone, I just happened to change my PGP key ID. I searched the guides. Though the procedure to get a key is described in some detail, there is no description of what to do after changing the key. I have the following doubts: 1. Do I give a second self introduction giving my new GPG key and ID? 2. Do I have to sign Contributor License Agreement(CLA) a second time with the new ID? My new PGP Key ID :0xE5D1883F My new PGP key fingerprint: F8D0 63AC E6B7 D245 DB11 361E 4853 C26F E5D1 883F Regards Shayin C K -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 252 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lxtnow at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 03:51:39 2006 From: lxtnow at gmail.com (SmootherFrOgZ) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 23:51:39 -0400 Subject: PGP key, changing In-Reply-To: <4551554C.2000207@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4551554C.2000207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <62bc09df0611071951y97e4576ycf378d703da9506a@mail.gmail.com> For the CLA i think you have to do it... see ya Xavier 2006/11/7, Shayin C K : > > Hello everyone, > I just happened to change my PGP key ID. I searched the guides. Though > the procedure to get a key is described in some detail, there is no > description of what to do after changing the key. I have the following > doubts: > > 1. Do I give a second self introduction giving my new GPG key and ID? > 2. Do I have to sign Contributor License Agreement(CLA) a second time > with the new ID? > > My new PGP Key ID :0xE5D1883F > My new PGP key fingerprint: F8D0 63AC E6B7 D245 DB11 361E 4853 C26F E5D1 > 883F > Regards > > Shayin C K > > > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Nov 8 06:07:20 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 22:07:20 -0800 Subject: FDSCo meeting task status update 07-Nov-2006 Message-ID: <1162966041.9868.30.camel@erato.phig.org> We didn't really have anyone for a meeting today, so I just wrote up notes there and finished them all here. Thus, some quick status reports on various things: * FDSCo election discussion postponed until next week at earliest - Need someone from FESCo to explain their election system and tools - abadger99? * Trans/Docs work - no update * Moin Moin update status - engaged with Moin devel team about upgrading and getting SoC code in trunk - waiting on mvirkkil's response (iirc) - we have stuff to do from Thomas Waldmann * Plone - FDSCo wonders if we can upgrade to use Fedora Core for infrastructure and thus gain all the modern packages we need? * Fedora DUG - Releasing this week (Karsten) * Packaging - no update * Project compliance - New task added - Making sure FDP is aligned with the requirements of being a formal Fedora project -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 06:42:52 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 23:42:52 -0700 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <4550D472.3070307@glezos.com> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> <4550D472.3070307@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1162968172.4445.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 18:46 +0000, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 20:28 +0100, Bela Pesics wrote: > >> [...] > >> I can also imagine using http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/ for something. I > >> am curious if the referenced materials could be used to put together a > >> handbook without double efforts in a efficient way. > > > > [...] > > But ... hmm ... there has been discussion in the past of having a > > kbase.fedoraproject.org that is a stand-alone knowledgebase. If we > > opened it to all Fedora account holders and had kbase articles queued > > for this team to edit (part of a workflow), maybe we could build up > > something very useful. I could see many discussions on e.g. fedora-list > > or fedoraforum.org being worth migrating into a kbase article. > > > > So, this is an idea to follow, but not sure if we can directly connect > > such live content into a handbook. Certainly as a source for > > inspiration, such as finding out the most commonly asked questions to > > give an idea of what people need us to write about. > > So, as I see it we need a balance between a solid solution like > "everything in Docbook" or a usable solution like "everything in the > wiki or in a kbase". With the first approach > *publication/maintainability* is easier and more simple but with the > second the actual *writing* is. Don't confuse writing with tagging. You can *write* in plain old ASCII for that matter. DocBook tagging can be done by someone else who knows how, if a contributor doesn't. (But DocBook is very easy to learn for anyone who wants to.) > Second has advantages like better > monitoring/live results, but with the cost of less functionality and a > cost overhead for producing the final form. The former advantage is erased by a decent content management system, and the disadvantages then topple this option. There's a reason the entire FOSS world, more or less, chooses DocBook rather than one of the various flavors of wiki markup. > With the MoinDocbook we try to do a little of both but it seems that the > transition from wiki to Docbook is not as easy nor as solid as it sounds > (correct me if I'm wrong here). The problem could be that we are trying > to maintain the content in two forms instead of one with just two > front-ends (the web one and the cvs-checkout/emacs one). Wiki -> DocBook will never approach greatness because there's no way to map the tagging. Sad but true. :-) > I'll throw another idea on the table (probably a bit bold too), since > now it's the best time to do it. > > Maybe a live web front-end to the actual Docbook code in CVS/SVN would > be a better solution? Let's say, we can see live the Docbook results and > edit individual paragraphs, with each edit resulting in CVS commits? If > we hook this up with the accounts system, everybody will be able to chip > in like with the Beats system, and the result would be maintainable with > the power of Docobok/CVS (no need to convert). I searched a bit and > found a project that does exactly that: > > http://doc-book.sourceforge.net > > I don't know if it's worth it (the customizing etc.), but it could be a > candidate to substitute the wiki <-> docbook conversion. It is written > in PHP, it uses xmltproc and friends, it seems to support multiple > languages, content approving, intermediate docbook-focused syntax (or > docbook). Last update was 1.5 year ago. (1) PHP will, AFAICT, never be used on fedoraproject.org. The admins have spoken. (2) Even if (1) were not true, I'm not excited about diverting energy that would be better spent on figuring out a Plone-based solution. Yes, there are some Plone issues still being worked, like authentication, but it's the future. Let's embrace it. Let me go out on a limb here and make a suggestion: If anyone here is interested in furthering our next publishing platform -- LEARN PLONE! I don't mean say, "Yes, we should learn Plone." (Or worse yet, "Plone should be learned by someone.") I mean, "Learn Plone. Do it. DO IT." /me finishes attack on passive voice :-D > Actually, a month ago a similar discussion was made on Mark > Shuttleworth's weblog under a post named "Writing a book collaboratively": > > http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/59 > > It seems that the above project was proposed as a good candidate. So, > maybe this could be a good candidate for a joint project between the > Ubuntu and Fedora teams? :) See above. Joint projects good, PHP... not so much. (In fairness, we've looked at this exact solution before.) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 06:43:49 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 23:43:49 -0700 Subject: What I want to write about In-Reply-To: <4551552A.8020804@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20061106170026.D182673CBC@hormel.redhat.com> <4551552A.8020804@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1162968229.4445.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-11-08 at 09:25 +0530, Shayin C K wrote: > I went through the Drafts as you suggested. I think I would like to > start working with Getting Started Guide. Have at it! :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Wed Nov 8 14:39:00 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 14:39:00 +0000 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <1162968172.4445.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> <4550D472.3070307@glezos.com> <1162968172.4445.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4551EC04.10208@glezos.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 18:46 +0000, Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> http://doc-book.sourceforge.net >> >> I don't know if it's worth it (the customizing etc.), but it could be a >> candidate to substitute the wiki <-> docbook conversion. It is written >> in PHP, it uses xmltproc and friends, it seems to support multiple >> languages, content approving, intermediate docbook-focused syntax (or >> docbook). Last update was 1.5 year ago. > > (1) PHP will, AFAICT, never be used on fedoraproject.org. The admins > have spoken. > > (2) Even if (1) were not true, I'm not excited about diverting energy > that would be better spent on figuring out a Plone-based solution. Yes, > there are some Plone issues still being worked, like authentication, but > it's the future. Let's embrace it. I know, but Paul, do we have the resources to build a Plone front-end for DocBook from scratch? Don't want to sound pessimistic here, but this might require a lot of work to "do it right". Because there are always some parameters that will be tight, probably we shouldn't abolish anything *completely* and probably do some compromises at a point. For example (I don't know if this *is* feasible), but if we do find the above project useful, we might be able to run PHP on a separate XEN machine that handles just the admin/editing part of the docs: `http://docs-admin.fedoraproject.org/`. Then this could be exported to a live version on a production system. Just throwing ideas here, because if we are going to collaboratively write a book, we should start thinking it's maintainability. Not how to write it, but how to maintain it. > Let me go out on a limb here and make a suggestion: If anyone here is > interested in furthering our next publishing platform -- LEARN PLONE! > I don't mean say, "Yes, we should learn Plone." (Or worse yet, "Plone > should be learned by someone.") I mean, "Learn Plone. Do it. > DO IT." OK, here is an idea to get this forward: Someone with knowledge of what we have, what we need and how we need it (say, you or Karsten or Bob?) write down on the wiki some ideas (UML-style) of what the Plone solution/worflows might need, with decreasing importance/urgency. The more detailed it is, the more motivating it will be for new members of the Docs and Infrastructure team to jump in and try implementing something on their installation of Plone at home. The wiki page for this is: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/PloneIssues An example with details: Given: Plone v.X, Python v.Y, Mercurial VCS with Docbook, ready-made authentication framework from the Infrastructure project. * State: We are looking an HTML-rendered page of a doc's page. * Priority 1: Front-end to show live-rendered Docbook HTML * P2: "Edit" buttons for each Docbook file. * P3: "Edit" buttons in each section/paragraph, like Wikipedia ones. * P3: Ability for admins to tag changes as "live" from the web. * State: An editor sees a tree view of the whole Docbook titles (TOC). * P1: Editors to be able to re-organize the structure: Eg. change a section's parent section. * P3: Ability to quickly edit the Docbook IDs of the sections (anchors). ...etc. I could write something like this, based on the features of the `doc-book.sf.net` software, but you guys know much better what we really need to get this done. Oh, and another issue to have in mind: If we *do* go for a 100% plone solution, the tools might need a lot of work, probably too much for FC7 or even FC8. Correct me if I am wrong. :) -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From stickster at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 15:35:43 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 08:35:43 -0700 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <4551EC04.10208@glezos.com> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> <4550D472.3070307@glezos.com> <1162968172.4445.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4551EC04.10208@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1163086543.4389.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-11-08 at 14:39 +0000, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 18:46 +0000, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > >> http://doc-book.sourceforge.net > >> > >> I don't know if it's worth it (the customizing etc.), but it could be a > >> candidate to substitute the wiki <-> docbook conversion. It is written > >> in PHP, it uses xmltproc and friends, it seems to support multiple > >> languages, content approving, intermediate docbook-focused syntax (or > >> docbook). Last update was 1.5 year ago. > > > > (1) PHP will, AFAICT, never be used on fedoraproject.org. The admins > > have spoken. > > > > (2) Even if (1) were not true, I'm not excited about diverting energy > > that would be better spent on figuring out a Plone-based solution. Yes, > > there are some Plone issues still being worked, like authentication, but > > it's the future. Let's embrace it. > > I know, but Paul, do we have the resources to build a Plone front-end > for DocBook from scratch? Don't want to sound pessimistic here, but this > might require a lot of work to "do it right". I'm out of my depth with Plone, but my understanding is that because of the way Plone works, there's less to do here than a "from scratch" solution. I can't tell you why... but many other people told me that Plone's built-in XML handling and its object model make this an attainable goal. I don't think it's a matter of selecting some options, but it's probably not much more work than our SoC intern did for Moin -> DB. > > Let me go out on a limb here and make a suggestion: If anyone here is > > interested in furthering our next publishing platform -- LEARN PLONE! > > I don't mean say, "Yes, we should learn Plone." (Or worse yet, "Plone > > should be learned by someone.") I mean, "Learn Plone. Do it. > > DO IT." > > OK, here is an idea to get this forward: Someone with knowledge of what > we have, what we need and how we need it (say, you or Karsten or Bob?) > write down on the wiki some ideas (UML-style) of what the Plone > solution/worflows might need, with decreasing importance/urgency. The > more detailed it is, the more motivating it will be for new members of > the Docs and Infrastructure team to jump in and try implementing > something on their installation of Plone at home. The wiki page for this is: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/PloneIssues > > An example with details: > > Given: Plone v.X, Python v.Y, Mercurial VCS with Docbook, ready-made > authentication framework from the Infrastructure project. > > * State: We are looking an HTML-rendered page of a doc's page. > * Priority 1: Front-end to show live-rendered Docbook HTML > * P2: "Edit" buttons for each Docbook file. > * P3: "Edit" buttons in each section/paragraph, like Wikipedia ones. > * P3: Ability for admins to tag changes as "live" from the web. > > * State: An editor sees a tree view of the whole Docbook titles (TOC). > * P1: Editors to be able to re-organize the structure: Eg. change a > section's parent section. > * P3: Ability to quickly edit the Docbook IDs of the sections (anchors). > > ...etc. > > I could write something like this, based on the features of the > `doc-book.sf.net` software, but you guys know much better what we really > need to get this done. This is a good idea. If you want to kick this off, I'm sure I and others will contribute to it as well. > Oh, and another issue to have in mind: If we *do* go for a 100% plone > solution, the tools might need a lot of work, probably too much for FC7 > or even FC8. Correct me if I am wrong. :) I don't think we're going to know that until someone with Plone experience gives us a real bead on what's already available for the platform. We really need some good informed advice from a true expert in that product. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Nov 9 16:01:01 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 08:01:01 -0800 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <1162908566.5536.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> <1162908566.5536.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1163088061.9868.92.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 09:09 -0500, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > +1 on this. I would really like to see a kbase for Fedora. I think it's > an excellent way to organize a large number of targeted how-to articles. > It can also be a lot easier for a contributor to write a brief kbase > than to get involved with a larger "guide" type of document. Then, guide > writers can pull from the kbase for ideas as well. Do you want this enough to help with the research and implementation? :D I added you to the task on the task schedule, let me know if you cannot work on this over the next few months, and we'll figure something else out. Tasks include figuring out what tool is best (work with FI directly or through mmcgrath) and what processes to use. We might be able to make this part of Plone. We certainly want to consider all the various problems of a kbase and how to mitigate them. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/TaskSchedule We definitely want kbase to reference larger content, and a process/workflow that allows us to easily edit kbase entries. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Nov 9 16:07:12 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 08:07:12 -0800 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <45509C59.3060304@glezos.com> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> <1162908566.5536.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45509C59.3060304@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1163088432.9868.99.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 14:46 +0000, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > I think it would be better to avoid having too much information in > FAQ-style, since although referencable, they are not very readable or > usable as a manual. > > On the other hand, it would be great if we had that information in the > guides/chapters and compile a set of FAQ that the answer is like "More > information for this can be found . For customizing it, see > Chapter , paragraph ". Right, we have to have a process that integrates the two properly. Regardless of our individual preferences, knowledgebase-style content is very popular and useful. We might be able to think of this as part of the modularizing of content. That is, can we write content in such a way that it is both useful in a kbase and fits into an overall document? Perhaps, perhaps not. > I believe the most difficult part of doing the Handbook would be to > decide on a good hierarchy that strikes a good balance between > usability/quality and reference-able. Yes, and we might want to strike toward the former and let other works do the latter, which is where formal (kbase) and informal (forums, etc.) fit in. > >>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/ref-guide/ > >>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/security-guide/ > >>> (e.g. the vpn question) > >>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > >>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/step-guide/ > Who should we contact to move some strings to free those docs? It would > be *great* if we could use them. We[1] called in Max Spevack some months ago to help make this happen, since I wasn't able to get it completed myself. Anyone who wants to lend support to this idea, please email Max directly with a personal plea, useful cases, etc.; he agrees with us, but it is helpful to know exactly what the community wants when we are discussing schedules with RHEL team members. - Karsten [1] We == Rahul, Paul, and myself -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From samfw at redhat.com Thu Nov 9 16:21:29 2006 From: samfw at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 11:21:29 -0500 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <1163088061.9868.92.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> <1162908566.5536.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1163088061.9868.92.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1163089289.4760.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-11-09 at 08:01 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 09:09 -0500, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > > > +1 on this. I would really like to see a kbase for Fedora. I think it's > > an excellent way to organize a large number of targeted how-to articles. > > It can also be a lot easier for a contributor to write a brief kbase > > than to get involved with a larger "guide" type of document. Then, guide > > writers can pull from the kbase for ideas as well. > > Do you want this enough to help with the research and implementation? :D > I added you to the task on the task schedule, let me know if you cannot > work on this over the next few months, and we'll figure something else > out. > Sure thing. Sounds good. > Tasks include figuring out what tool is best (work with FI directly or > through mmcgrath) and what processes to use. We might be able to make > this part of Plone. We certainly want to consider all the various > problems of a kbase and how to mitigate them. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/TaskSchedule > > We definitely want kbase to reference larger content, and a > process/workflow that allows us to easily edit kbase entries. > I've done a lot of research and work into kbase solutions for my current job. And i definitely have a favorite. Adding yet another tool is always a pain, but I am convinced this is *the* kbase tool: http://sourceforge.net/projects/klear i believe this was discussed in the past: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-dsco-list/2005-June/msg00011.html > - Karsten > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE Global Support Services -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Nov 9 16:38:47 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 08:38:47 -0800 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <4550D472.3070307@glezos.com> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> <4550D472.3070307@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1163090327.9868.115.camel@erato.phig.org> I'll try to reply here with all my thoughts to this part of the thread, rather than repeating myself into this thread-branch. HTH. On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 18:46 +0000, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > So, as I see it we need a balance between a solid solution like > "everything in Docbook" or a usable solution like "everything in the > wiki or in a kbase". With the first approach > *publication/maintainability* is easier and more simple but with the > second the actual *writing* is. Second has advantages like better > monitoring/live results, but with the cost of less functionality and a > cost overhead for producing the final form. > > With the MoinDocbook we try to do a little of both but it seems that the > transition from wiki to Docbook is not as easy nor as solid as it sounds > (correct me if I'm wrong here). The problem could be that we are trying > to maintain the content in two forms instead of one with just two > front-ends (the web one and the cvs-checkout/emacs one). It's a combination of technical and procedural. For something like the release notes, I think the Wiki -> DB works great, ideally. We still have some bugs to work out, but they are minor in comparison. > I'll throw another idea on the table (probably a bit bold too), since > now it's the best time to do it. > > Maybe a live web front-end to the actual Docbook code in CVS/SVN would > be a better solution? Let's say, we can see live the Docbook results and > edit individual paragraphs, with each edit resulting in CVS commits? If > we hook this up with the accounts system, everybody will be able to chip > in like with the Beats system, and the result would be maintainable with > the power of Docobok/CVS (no need to convert). Not too bold at all, and has been discussed on this list before you came around. The idea is solid and we defined some ideas of how to do this with the upcoming code in Moin Moin. The basic idea is to have Wiki constructs for easy block code (, , etc.) and then find some way to expose actual XML within the Wiki itself. (This is what 'DocBook Wiki' does that you reference below.) Personally, I think we need to pursue this with Moin and the plans Mikko and I made over the summer: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MoinDocBookProject/PassThroughBlocks Read through this entire road map to understand a little more: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MoinDocBookProject/RoadMap > I searched a bit and > found a project that does exactly that: > > http://doc-book.sourceforge.net > > I don't know if it's worth it (the customizing etc.), but it could be a > candidate to substitute the wiki <-> docbook conversion. It is written > in PHP, it uses xmltproc and friends, it seems to support multiple > languages, content approving, intermediate docbook-focused syntax (or > docbook). Last update was 1.5 year ago. We took a serious look at this internally at Red Hat and ran into several show-stoppers. The content is stored in the SCM (CVS or SVN) in a very unique way that is hard to map to DocBook needs. In fact, iirc, we could not use XIncludes properly because of the directory structure. There were other technical limitations that don't come to mind; Jeff Fearn might be able to enlighten us further here, if he wants to decloak. There are also concerns about maintainability. This DocBook Wiki would setup an entirely new piece of infrastructure that no one is familiar with, and FI is not interested in supporting. It is also a bit out of date, and while I don't think Dashamir has abandoned the project, it does not seem to be his main focus. So, we would likely need to have someone become an active upstream supported to have success. With Moin, we have all that already -- it is understood, supported, and we are working with the very active upstream to get our changes in and supported, probably maintained by someone from Fedora. I will balance this with saying that actually looking at the UI for DocBook Wiki makes it look like a great idea; it is rather elegant the way he made it work, which is where I got the idea to embed XML within the Wiki markup. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Nov 9 16:42:23 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 08:42:23 -0800 Subject: PGP key, changing In-Reply-To: <4551554C.2000207@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4551554C.2000207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1163090543.9868.119.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-11-08 at 09:25 +0530, Shayin C K wrote: > Hello everyone, > I just happened to change my PGP key ID. I searched the guides. Though > the procedure to get a key is described in some detail, there is no > description of what to do after changing the key. I have the following > doubts: > > 1. Do I give a second self introduction giving my new GPG key and ID? I don't think this matters as much, although it is nice to let everyone know (as you do here) that it has changed. > 2. Do I have to sign Contributor License Agreement(CLA) a second time > with the new ID? I don't think there is a technical requirement; once the CLA is signed, all work is done with ssh keys after that (iirc). You might want to ask on #fedora-admin or hunt around the Wiki for an answer: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem If there is no answer out there, we should get someone to post an answer on those pages. :) - Karsten > My new PGP Key ID :0xE5D1883F > My new PGP key fingerprint: F8D0 63AC E6B7 D245 DB11 361E 4853 C26F E5D1 > 883F > Regards > > Shayin C K > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Thu Nov 9 17:02:16 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 17:02:16 +0000 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <1163088432.9868.99.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> <1162908566.5536.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45509C59.3060304@glezos.com> <1163088432.9868.99.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <45535F18.2020202@glezos.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 14:46 +0000, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > >> I think it would be better to avoid having too much information in >> FAQ-style, since although referencable, they are not very readable or >> usable as a manual. >> >> On the other hand, it would be great if we had that information in the >> guides/chapters and compile a set of FAQ that the answer is like "More >> information for this can be found . For customizing it, see >> Chapter , paragraph ". > > Right, we have to have a process that integrates the two properly. > Regardless of our individual preferences, knowledgebase-style content is > very popular and useful. I believe we can do that. We just have to start designing and agreeing on a good hierarchy for our handbook and build on top of that. Oh, and of course, decide what our audience will be. :) > We might be able to think of this as part of the modularizing of > content. That is, can we write content in such a way that it is both > useful in a kbase and fits into an overall document? Perhaps, perhaps > not. One definite goal of our should be to *converge* the places/ways we maintain content and minimize the same-content-different-location issues. Try to move as much informally-written content as possible from the wiki to the guides/handbook. The difficult part would be to strike a good balance for this. Ie, we want to minimize duplicate content but at the same time we want the Release notes to contain installation notes that should exist in the Installation Guide. Modularization implies maintainability but also dependencies and we will have to make some choices for the places where we will duplicate content instead of referencing. >> I believe the most difficult part of doing the Handbook would be to >> decide on a good hierarchy that strikes a good balance between >> usability/quality and reference-able. > > Yes, and we might want to strike toward the former and let other works > do the latter, which is where formal (kbase) and informal (forums, etc.) > fit in. +1. The kbase's aim should be to serve as reference the content of our documentation (something like a FAQ). >>>>>... >>>>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/step-guide/ > >> Who should we contact to move some strings to free those docs? It would >> be *great* if we could use them. > > We[1] called in Max Spevack some months ago to help make this happen, > since I wasn't able to get it completed myself. Anyone who wants to > lend support to this idea, please email Max directly with a personal > plea, useful cases, etc.; he agrees with us, but it is helpful to know > exactly what the community wants when we are discussing schedules with > RHEL team members. I guess we'll know what we really need when we agree on the structure of our big doc. If everyone is OK with the idea, I'll try to bootstrap a tree structure based on other guides (like the excellent FreeBSD cookbook) and put it on the wiki for further discussion. Thankfully, most of the big parts are already there (IG, DUG, FAQ). -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From kwade at redhat.com Thu Nov 9 20:29:30 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 12:29:30 -0800 Subject: what next? In-Reply-To: <45535F18.2020202@glezos.com> References: <1162829965.27328.310.camel@erato.phig.org> <454F6E42.8040601@glezos.com> <1162907893.27328.371.camel@erato.phig.org> <1162908566.5536.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45509C59.3060304@glezos.com> <1163088432.9868.99.camel@erato.phig.org> <45535F18.2020202@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1163104171.9868.133.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-11-09 at 17:02 +0000, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > I believe we can do that. We just have to start designing and agreeing > on a good hierarchy for our handbook and build on top of that. Oh, and > of course, decide what our audience will be. :) s/audience/audiences/ :) Let's start with where the most pain is, people who are new to Fedora and/or Linux. Make sense? Our plan should be able to handle content addressed at all levels, but this "Experienced computer user who knows what they want to do but who is knew to Fedora" is a good place to start. In parallel, we can work on content that is good for experienced users who want more formal content that tells how to do more advanced stuff, like the Administration Guide. Just given a choice of resources ... well, admins can adapt content from other distros better than newbies can. :) > One definite goal of our should be to *converge* the places/ways we > maintain content and minimize the same-content-different-location > issues. Try to move as much informally-written content as possible from > the wiki to the guides/handbook. +1, except I'd like to see a way, as we are discussing, where the Wiki is an editor choice. All content in XML but your choice of editors. Wow. > The difficult part would be to strike a good balance for this. Ie, we > want to minimize duplicate content but at the same time we want the > Release notes to contain installation notes that should exist in the > Installation Guide. Modularization implies maintainability but also > dependencies and we will have to make some choices for the places where > we will duplicate content instead of referencing. We may need to move beyond to DITA to do this, and for us to be successful at that, we need to make success with what we have so far. Yes? > If everyone is OK with the idea, I'll try to bootstrap a tree structure > based on other guides (like the excellent FreeBSD cookbook) and put it > on the wiki for further discussion. Thankfully, most of the big parts > are already there (IG, DUG, FAQ). If you didn't see this, this is the page that I threw up recently from the initial handbook discussion earlier this/last week: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Handbook Just a place to start from. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Nov 10 15:56:57 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 07:56:57 -0800 Subject: What I want to write about In-Reply-To: <1162968229.4445.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20061106170026.D182673CBC@hormel.redhat.com> <4551552A.8020804@yahoo.co.uk> <1162968229.4445.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1163174217.9868.148.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 23:43 -0700, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2006-11-08 at 09:25 +0530, Shayin C K wrote: > > I went through the Drafts as you suggested. I think I would like to > > start working with Getting Started Guide. > > Have at it! :-) I encourage you to look to this RHEL guide that used to be called the "Getting Started Guide": http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/step-guide/ This is one of the documents we are working on getting released openly for us to use as a content base. If it makes sense, we could use that guide as the basis for the Fedora Getting Started Guide. However, I do not think we currently have permission to use the content itself. We should be safe to pull from the Table of Contents for ideas and outlines for now, and I'll try try try to get us an answer about the content itself. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Nov 10 16:00:06 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:00:06 -0800 Subject: Vote for Fedora Core 6, paid for by Red Hat..... In-Reply-To: <4BEE93EA-1273-454B-BD80-87FB95905EB1@verizon.net> References: <4BEE93EA-1273-454B-BD80-87FB95905EB1@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1163174407.9868.153.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 12:33 -0500, Markus McLaughlin wrote: > If you live in America, get out and vote, VOTE FOR FEDORA CORE 6 AS > YOUR O.S. OF CHOICE! I looked for it on my ballot but couldn't find it. So I did a write-in candidate ... "California governor race results -- Schwarzenegger - 3,867,942 Angelides - 2,701,989 Fedora Core - 1" -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dmalcolm at redhat.com Fri Nov 10 21:26:58 2006 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:26:58 -0500 Subject: ANNOUNCE: docbook-lint: a tool for checking DocBook source files Message-ID: <1163194018.14778.48.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> [apologies for broad cross-posting] I wanted to do a bit of checking of DocBook XML files beyond just DTD validation, and couldn't find a tool to so this (is there one?), so I've hacked one together (GPL license, python implementation) In the spirit of "release early, release often", the code is in public Subversion here: https://testing.108.redhat.com/source/browse/testing/trunk/incubator/docbooklint/?rev=259 and the mailing list for the project is: dev at testing.108.redhat.com (see https://testing.108.redhat.com/servlets/ProjectMailingListList for archives and subscription info) So far all it does is verify that text inside a element has been properly line-wrapped [1], but the framework is hopefully clean enough to be expanded to cover other checks people might want to implement that aren't so easy to do with DTDs, for instance: - enforcing naming policies for node ids - spell-checking etc - any other ideas? Patches welcome. Hopefully this will be of use to various projects with DocBook toolchains. Dave Malcolm [1] I ran into some problems where line-endings of screen dumps in my DocBook files got garbled, and verbatim monospace rendering was looking terrible: the tool detects this now. From kwade at redhat.com Sat Nov 11 00:41:30 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:41:30 -0800 Subject: ANNOUNCE: docbook-lint: a tool for checking DocBook source files In-Reply-To: <1163194018.14778.48.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> References: <1163194018.14778.48.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1163205691.9868.230.camel@erato.phig.org> Please compile your docbooklint suggestions on this thread, and I'll submit one list of suggestions to Dave. On Fri, 2006-11-10 at 16:26 -0500, David Malcolm wrote: > [apologies for broad cross-posting] > > I wanted to do a bit of checking of DocBook XML files beyond just DTD > validation, and couldn't find a tool to so this (is there one?), so I've > hacked one together (GPL license, python implementation) > > In the spirit of "release early, release often", the code is in public > Subversion here: > https://testing.108.redhat.com/source/browse/testing/trunk/incubator/docbooklint/?rev=259 > > and the mailing list for the project is: > dev at testing.108.redhat.com > (see https://testing.108.redhat.com/servlets/ProjectMailingListList for > archives and subscription info) > > So far all it does is verify that text inside a element > has been properly line-wrapped [1], but the framework is hopefully clean > enough to be expanded to cover other checks people might want to > implement that aren't so easy to do with DTDs, for instance: > - enforcing naming policies for node ids > - spell-checking > etc - any other ideas? Patches welcome. > > Hopefully this will be of use to various projects with DocBook > toolchains. > > Dave Malcolm > > [1] I ran into some problems where line-endings of screen dumps in my > DocBook files got garbled, and verbatim monospace rendering was looking > terrible: the tool detects this now. > > -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Sat Nov 11 08:47:23 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:47:23 +0300 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> Fedora Docs Team Members: One area which appears to be overlooked is the installation and updating of software by the novice user. Various sections exist (such as the excellent one on yum - see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tools/yum), but there is no "gentle introduction" for the person new to Fedora Core. According to the Documentation Summary section of the Desktop User Guide: *Assumptions:* The reader has a standard Desktop class installation of Fedora. The reader has a user account with the default settings.The reader does *not * have access to the *root* password. *Related Documents*: The AdministrationGuidedocuments tasks that require *root* access. The GettingStartedGuideis a general introduction to using Fedora. Each desktop application has integrated Help, so the scope of this document may need to be considered carefully. I agree with the DUG assumption not requiring the novice user to have access to the root password. This keeps the DUG focused on the basics. However, a quick review of the Administration Guide reveals no section on the installation and updating of packages. The Getting Started Guide has the following section: Cool Things To Do with Fedora Everything above gives users equivalents to a standard Windows desktop that they have seen before. What cool things can new users try with a Fedora system that take them further ? - LinPhone - demonstrates installing from Extras, and free phone calls. Requires: headset. - GnuCash - installs from Core, home finance software isn't cool, but is important. However, the links for installing LinPhone and GnuCash don't link to existing pages. A MODEST PROPOSAL Therefore, I propose a separate Installing and Updating Software Guide aimed at the beginning Fedora Core user. I volunteer to write and edit the guide and welcome any and all contributions and suggestions. (That includes a better name for this guide). We would start from the Fedora Core 6 release. This assumes, of course, that I get the "go ahead" from the Powers That Be. PROPOSED OUTLINE FOR THE IAUSG These would be the assumptions for the Installing and Updating Software Guide: *Assumptions:* The reader has a standard Desktop class installation of Fedora. The reader has a user account with the default settings.The reader **hasaccess to the *root* password. The reader has access to the internet (preferably broadband). The reader does not have a degree in Computer Science. We need to give some background information and provide concepts and details as required. As suggested by the Getting Started Guide, we can demonstrate different classes of installs, such as from the Core and Extras repositories. We should also demonstrate different methods of installing packages, going from the simplest to the more complex. 1. Install a package like xmms using Pirut. (Perhaps xmms with fluendo?) 2. Install Yumex via Pirut, and then install (perhaps a game) via yumex. 3. Use rpm from the CLI to view a list installed packages (no root password required). 4. Use rpm to install a locally available package (root password required). 5. Use yum to install a package from an internet repository. 6. Use yum to provide various reports. 7. Use yum to do a group-level installation, such as a complete KDE desktop installation. 8. More advanced topics: a. Using smart. b. Using apt-get. c. Using yum at installation time via the new anaconda feature. Likewise, we should cover the topic of updating packages in a similar progression from the simple to the advanced. 1. Update packages using Pirut. 2. Update using Yumex. 3. Update using yum from the CLI. 4. Selectively update using yum (including/excluding packages and disabling/enabling repositories). 5. More advanced topics: a. Do a complete Fedora Core release upgrade (I actually have done this successfully on a laptop with a bad CD drive and broadband internet access.) FURTHER READING (RELATED DOCUMENTS) As always, we should provide pointers to good links, both inside and outside of the Fedora Core wiki. FLOSS AND COTS PACKAGES Additionally, we should stick with FLOSS software and avoid packages which violate the GPL. At the same time, we should remember that there are legal, commercially available packages which can be covered in general terms. Most of these commercial-off the-shelf (COTS) packages come with detailed instructions and/or installation scripts, so this section can be short. This guide should follow the guidelines and policies for the Fedora Core wiki concerning "forbidden items" (not my favorite term). See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems. (Aside: Maybe we can come up with a less harsh-sounding phrase than "forbidden items".) In conclusion, ala Rod Serling's Twilight Zone, this is submitted "for your consideration." John Babich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From samavedam.vijay at gmail.com Sat Nov 11 12:58:09 2006 From: samavedam.vijay at gmail.com (samavedam vijay) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:28:09 +0530 Subject: FC7 through FC10 Name Proposals In-Reply-To: <1161776779.6324.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <369bce3b0610232216h4f5c27b2qb294abbcdcea6c03@mail.gmail.com> <20061024173812.GA7632@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <62bc09df0610250416h55544ca7p942e35045f056a3e@mail.gmail.com> <1161776779.6324.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <26c6e1310611110458h7c71b742me36491b8864f8635@mail.gmail.com> the name better be something which is challenging to windows vista!! the code name can be fedora emperor or something which can dominate windws vista!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From francesco.ugolini at fedoraproject.org Sat Nov 11 15:01:20 2006 From: francesco.ugolini at fedoraproject.org (Francesco Ugolini) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 16:01:20 +0100 Subject: FC7 through FC10 Name Proposals In-Reply-To: <26c6e1310611110458h7c71b742me36491b8864f8635@mail.gmail.com> References: <369bce3b0610232216h4f5c27b2qb294abbcdcea6c03@mail.gmail.com> <20061024173812.GA7632@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <62bc09df0610250416h55544ca7p942e35045f056a3e@mail.gmail.com> <1161776779.6324.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <26c6e1310611110458h7c71b742me36491b8864f8635@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4555E5C0.9030905@fedoraproject.org> samavedam vijay ha scritto: > the name better be something which is challenging to windows vista!! > the code name can be fedora emperor or something which can dominate > windws vista!! 2010 will be the fourth centenary of Galileo Galilei's experimental dimostration of Heliocentric Model, that, surely, changed the vision of the world and give scientist a miliar stone to improve their works. I want to propose, if is possible, to give a code name (to one of the two distribution of 2010) that remember this event. I have a proposal:/ Sidereus/ , that is a part of the title (Sidereus Nuntius) of the book write by Galilei about the question. I think that Open Source can be considered a Revolution in two sense: as a return to a past condition of freedom and as the beggining oof a new era. This, also, can be considered as a miliar stone for the future as the Copernican revolution was and, actually, is. This is my opinion, what do you think ? Francesco Ugolini From kwade at redhat.com Sat Nov 11 18:25:08 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 10:25:08 -0800 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 11:47 +0300, John Babich wrote: > Fedora Docs Team Members: > > > One area which appears to be overlooked is the installation and > updating of software by the novice user. Various sections exist (such > as the excellent one on yum - see > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tools/yum), > but there is no "gentle introduction" for the person new to Fedora > Core. If you missed this, it is mainly because we are so poorly organized at revealing docs to users: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/index.html It needs updating for FC6. Being an existing guide, it is a *great* way to dive into DocBook. You can find it in CVS: cvs.fedoraproject.org:/cvs/docs/yum-software-management The layout of the module needs to be modernized; we can work with you to make that happen, then it will build nicely and be ready for translation. > However, a quick review of the Administration Guide reveals no section > on the > installation and updating of packages. Yes, it should link out to the Yum and/or new guide (which could combine ideas). > A MODEST PROPOSAL Oh, joy, is this where we get to cook and eat the children? /me hopes that enough people get that literary reference :) > Therefore, I propose a separate Installing and Updating Software Guide > aimed > at the beginning Fedora Core user. I volunteer to write and edit the > guide and > welcome any and all contributions and suggestions. (That includes a > better > name for this guide). We would start from the Fedora Core 6 release. > > > This assumes, of course, that I get the "go ahead" from the Powers > That Be. Well, there aren't any PTBs around here that restrict good ideas or require you to have permission to start new things. You could even start from scratch instead of the existing guide, although that is not recommended. Our main PTB role is in enabling you all to do good work, so expect encouragement and not discouragement. :) In other words, go for it! > PROPOSED OUTLINE FOR THE IAUSG [snip good outline to give John a chance to compare against the existing "Managing Software with Yum", which also needs a better title] > FLOSS AND COTS PACKAGES > > > Additionally, we should stick with FLOSS software and avoid packages > which violate the GPL. At the same time, we should remember that there > are legal, commercially available packages which can be covered in > general terms. Most of these commercial-off the-shelf (COTS) packages > come with detailed instructions and/or installation scripts, so this > section can be short. > > This guide should follow the guidelines and policies for the Fedora > Core wiki concerning "forbidden items" (not my favorite term). See > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems. One important consideration for all of our work is that it should only cover the software available in Fedora. That has always meant Core + Extras, and nowadays that is even more relevant (as Fedora engineering leaders go off to discuss a possible merger of Core + Extras for FC7). By sticking with this software, we are: * Guaranteeing that it is acceptable by Fedora standards; if it is a Fedora package, it is legally safe to use * Sticking by what is unique to Fedora instead of getting into battles about outside software v. what is in the distro * Maintaining solidarity with package maintainers * Avoiding unnecessary work that is documented elsewhere > (Aside: Maybe we can come up with a less harsh-sounding phrase than > "forbidden items".) Yeah, I thought that too way back when, but it's such a well publicized page ... Also, I like the idea of forbidden to some degree because it is not a wishy-washy word. It puts the responsibility back onto the software for not being compliant, instead of it being due to use being picky. > In conclusion, ala Rod Serling's Twilight Zone, this is submitted "for > your > consideration." Rock on. If you would like to takeover the maintainership of the Yum guide and grow it, you are most, most welcome to do so. The original author is no longer an active contributor, so this is a much needed takeover. I recommend taking the chance to work with DocBook. The hassles to work with the Wiki then output to DocBook later, when it is already in existence, is going to be much, much more than the learning curve for XML. We are very interested in growing the XML expertise in this project, as well, so you have many willing helpers here and on #fedora-docs. If you've ever worked with HTML before, you'll find DocBook XML cleaner and easier. For entirely new sections/chapters that you want to add, you may want to collaborate on them in the Wiki until you have a draft you are happy enough with. Then we can convert it to XML, clean it up, and include it in the docbase. Thanks for a good idea and taking the initiative to make it happen. Cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Sat Nov 11 20:31:14 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 23:31:14 +0300 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611111231l298a8fbax2f6590d8ade4f263@mail.gmail.com> Karsten: POINT #1 - THE EXISTING YUM GUIDE REVEALED > If you missed this, it is mainly because we are so poorly organized at > revealing docs to users: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/index.html > > It needs updating for FC6. Being an existing guide, it is a *great* way > to dive into DocBook. ... > The layout of the module needs to be modernized; we can work with you to > make that happen, then it will build nicely and be ready for > translation. > After I sent my initial email, I compiled a list of links and discovered the existing yum guide. I saw a copyright date of 2006 and saw that it was edited by Paul Frields et al. I assumed that the guide was being actively maintained. Now I know differently. You'll need to explain exactly what you mean by modernizng the module. As for writing in DocBook XML, I'm ready to take the plunge. POINT #2 - INTEGRATING THE YUM GUIDE INTO WIKI CONSIDERED > Yes, it should link out to the Yum and/or new guide (which could combine > ideas). I would like to see the wiki continue to be integrated with other documents. I found that I made good progress on the DUG due to the ease-of-use and low barrier to entry. Having said that, I am ready for the next challenge, having fooled around with Docbook XML in EMACS for a little while now. POINT #3 - LITERARY ALLUSION ACKNOWLEDGED > Oh, joy, is this where we get to cook and eat the children? I'm glad to see that you are a man of letters. In the spirit of political correctness, my apologies in advance to my Irish friends. Jonathan Swift could be so insensitive. POINT #4 - PERMISSION GRANTED > Well, there aren't any PTBs around here that restrict good ideas or > require you to have permission to start new things. You could even > start from scratch instead of the existing guide, although that is not > recommended. Our main PTB role is in enabling you all to do good work, > so expect encouragement and not discouragement. :) > > In other words, go for it! My definition of "Powers that Be" is a pragmatic one. I like to "go with the flow" of the Fedora Project, which means having a spirit of cooperation with the committed team members. I will occasionally risk the wrath of the PTB, but I hope only for good reasons. I also prefer PTB over PHBs. :) POINT #5 - THE YUM GUIDE (PARTIALLY) DIGESTED > [snip good outline to give John a chance to compare against the existing > "Managing Software with Yum", which also needs a better title] > I think yum will continue to be the focus of the guide, but there are no direct references to yum (or rpm for that matter) in the Fedora Desktop. The functional "labels" on the desktop are "Add/Remove Software" and "Software Updater". That's why I would like to use a generic title like "Installing and Updating Software in Fedora". POINT #6 - AVAILABLE FEDORA SOFTWARE RE-EMPHASIZED > One important consideration for all of our work is that it should only > cover the software available in Fedora. That has always meant Core + > Extras, and nowadays that is even more relevant (as Fedora engineering > leaders go off to discuss a possible merger of Core + Extras for FC7). > > By sticking with this software, we are: > > * Guaranteeing that it is acceptable by Fedora standards; if it is a > Fedora package, it is legally safe to use > * Sticking by what is unique to Fedora instead of getting into battles > about outside software v. what is in the distro > * Maintaining solidarity with package maintainers > * Avoiding unnecessary work that is documented elsewhere > > There's plenty to do with the software packages available in Fedora Core and Extras. I find that the Extras repository is getting very comprehensive. In the past I would use RPMFind or Google to locate an RPM. Now I check Fedora Extras first with a high hit rate. POINT #7 - THE LURE OF THE FORBIDDEN RESISTED > Also, I like the idea of forbidden to some degree because it is not a > wishy-washy word. It puts the responsibility back onto the software for > not being compliant, instead of it being due to use being picky. > I guess people need to be reminded that the GPL is one of the main reasons projects like GNU/Linux and Fedora Core exist. POINT #8 - THE YUM GUIDE TO BE MASTERED WITH DOCBOOK VIRTUOSITY > Rock on. If you would like to takeover the maintainership of the Yum > guide and grow it, you are most, most welcome to do so. The original > author is no longer an active contributor, so this is a much needed > takeover. > > I recommend taking the chance to work with DocBook. The hassles to work > with the Wiki then output to DocBook later, when it is already in > existence, is going to be much, much more than the learning curve for > XML. We are very interested in growing the XML expertise in this > project, as well, so you have many willing helpers here and on > #fedora-docs. If you've ever worked with HTML before, you'll find > DocBook XML cleaner and easier. > > For entirely new sections/chapters that you want to add, you may want to > collaborate on them in the Wiki until you have a draft you are happy > enough with. Then we can convert it to XML, clean it up, and include it > in the docbase. > Point taken. I agree with the source living in DocBook XML with collaboration and easy entry via the Wiki. POINT #9 - A CARROT AWARDED COMPLIMENTS OF KARSTEN > Thanks for a good idea and taking the initiative to make it happen. > > Cheers - Karsten POINT #10 - THE CARROT CONSUMED AND SAVORED BY JOHN You're welcome. John Babich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Nov 12 04:57:00 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 10:27:00 +0530 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611111231l298a8fbax2f6590d8ade4f263@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> <9d2c731f0611111231l298a8fbax2f6590d8ade4f263@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4556A99C.7090305@fedoraproject.org> John Babich wrote: > Karsten: > > POINT #1 - THE EXISTING YUM GUIDE REVEALED > > > If you missed this, it is mainly because we are so poorly organized at > > revealing docs to users: > > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/index.html > > > > It needs updating for FC6. Being an existing guide, it is a *great* way > > to dive into DocBook. > ... > > The layout of the module needs to be modernized; we can work with you to > > make that happen, then it will build nicely and be ready for > > translation. > > > > After I sent my initial email, I compiled a list of links and discovered > the existing yum guide. I saw a copyright date of 2006 and saw that it was > edited by Paul Frields et al. I assumed that the guide was being actively > maintained. Now I know differently. > This was one of the guides that I was planning on updating into a "software package management guide" covering Yum, Pirut and Pup. I would prefer to work on the wiki. Rahul From jmbabich at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 06:19:17 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 09:19:17 +0300 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <4556A99C.7090305@fedoraproject.org> References: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> <9d2c731f0611111231l298a8fbax2f6590d8ade4f263@mail.gmail.com> <4556A99C.7090305@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611112219x252871cfh2ecc1e04f87ccd64@mail.gmail.com> Rahul: Rahul Sundaram wrote: > This was one of the guides that I was planning on updating into a > "software package management guide" covering Yum, Pirut and Pup. I would > prefer to work on the wiki. I also prefer working with the wiki for the reasons I listed below: >> POINT #2 - INTEGRATING THE YUM GUIDE INTO WIKI CONSIDERED >> I would like to see the wiki continue to be integrated with other documents. >> I found that I made good progress on the DUG due to the ease-of-use and low >> barrier to entry. Having said that, I am ready for the next challenge, having >> fooled around with Docbook XML in EMACS for a little while now. At the same time, I can see the value of a DocBook version which can be incorporated into a Fedora Core handbook. I personally want to master DocBook XML and Emacs since they are such popular and powerful tools. The good news is that I think we can have both wiki and DocBook simultaneously. IMHO we all need to be reminded form time to time that there are two reader audiences with which we are attempting to communicate: 1. The Fedora "newbie" - This is the person who wants to use Fedora as a desktop replacement, but doesn't know or care about the internals of Linux, Gnome or Nautilus, at least in the beginning. This person takes his car to a mechanic for regular maintenance. 2. The Fedora "power user" - This is a former newbie, a developer or a person who enjoys "hacking" in the best sense of the word, figuring out how Fedora works "under the hood". To continue the automotive analogy, this person changes her own oil. This person reads the detailed specs and pours over the engine schematics. I see the wiki as the easier method to get timely information out in a consistent manner to both the newbie and power user. The wiki even allows the newbie to participate in the process, which explains the popularity of the wiki format in the first place. I see DocBook XML as the means to producing the technical reference handbook for the power user and developer. Both methods result in output which can be easily accessed and indexed if done properly. The wiki can be the "mind mapping" tool with the DocBook as the more systematic, comprehensive output. Ideally, the cool wiki-DocBook conversion tools can continue to be refined further so that the choice is to have both available, each with their intrinsic advantages, with a minimum of manual editing. >> POINT #5 - THE YUM GUIDE (PARTIALLY) DIGESTED >> I think yum will continue to be the focus of the guide, but there are no direct >> references to yum (or rpm for that matter) in the Fedora Desktop. The functional >> "labels" on the desktop are "Add/Remove Software" and "Software Updater". >> >> That's why I would like to use a generic title like "Installing and Updating >> Software in Fedora". Like the DUG, the perspective should be from the desktop first. The desktop user encounters "Add/Remove Software" and "Software Updater" functions, not yum, pirut or pup. Unlike the DUG, the user has access to the root password and can be encouraged to explore the CLI utilities. I envision the DUG as the beginner's guide, with the new guide aimed more at the intermediate/advanced level. Bottom line: I volunteer to edit and help write a new section in the wiki. Let's call it "Installing and Updating Software - a Software Package Management Guide". I will concentrate on the outline and will aim to keep it clear enough for the newbie. It will be divided into sections covering yum, pirut and pup. As the guide develops, intermediate and advanced topics will be introduced and explored. I hope other experienced writers such as yourself will contribute their insights and expertise. John Babich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ckshayin1971 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Nov 12 14:49:17 2006 From: ckshayin1971 at yahoo.co.uk (Shayin C K) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 20:19:17 +0530 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <20061111170025.9D1BE7347E@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20061111170025.9D1BE7347E@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4557346D.8060509@yahoo.co.uk> I think it is a good idea. As soon as the 'Powers-that-be' approve it, we can have a go at it. My own suggestions and ideas: 1. The section on Getting Started begins with how it is similar to/different from Microsoft Windows. I think Fedora has matured to a point where we have to get rid of this Windows fixation where we have to point out how better or worse Linux is compared to Windows. 2. The Desktop user guide reads: "After reading this, you _should_(emphasis mine) be able to ..." Suppose a user is not able to all that? Is he supposed to feel bad about it? I think our style should be more non-judgmental and without laying any targets for the user. Let us not set any objectives for the user. Let him get started. Let us not intimidate him. 3. The number of technical sounding words can be brought down or at least they can be suitably hyperlinked(another technical word ;-) ). For example(fedora Desktop guide): ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After reading this guide, you should: * Be able to login to your computer * Be familiar with the layout of the default Fedora Core 6 desktop * Be able to use Nautilus, a file and system navigator * Be able to use Evolution, an e-mail client * Be able to use Gaim, an instant messenger client * Be able to use Firefox, a web-browser * Be able to use OpenOffice, an office suite * Be able to customize your new Fedora Core 6 desktop ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The technical words: login, layout, default, desktop, file, navigator, e-mail 'client', web-browser, office suite, customize Let us assume that a new user who has never used any computer(Windows/non-windows) starts using Fedora Core and we have to manage to get him working. Why do we assume that only a technically experienced user will be switching to Linux? Regards Shayin C K -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 252 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 21:32:54 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:32:54 -0500 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611112219x252871cfh2ecc1e04f87ccd64@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> <9d2c731f0611111231l298a8fbax2f6590d8ade4f263@mail.gmail.com> <4556A99C.7090305@fedoraproject.org> <9d2c731f0611112219x252871cfh2ecc1e04f87ccd64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1163367174.1553.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 09:19 +0300, John Babich wrote: > Rahul: > > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > This was one of the guides that I was planning on updating into a > > "software package management guide" covering Yum, Pirut and Pup. I > would > > prefer to work on the wiki. > > I also prefer working with the wiki for the reasons I listed below: > > >> POINT #2 - INTEGRATING THE YUM GUIDE INTO WIKI CONSIDERED > >> I would like to see the wiki continue to be integrated with other > documents. > >> I found that I made good progress on the DUG due to the ease-of-use > and low > >> barrier to entry. Having said that, I am ready for the next > challenge, having > >> fooled around with Docbook XML in EMACS for a little while now. > > At the same time, I can see the value of a DocBook version which can > be > incorporated into a Fedora Core handbook. I personally want to master > DocBook > XML and Emacs since they are such popular and powerful tools. Right on John! Let me know if you need any help. As for maintenance on the Yum guide, yes, I could use the help. Too many projects and (lately) too little time. I would recommend starting with the DocBook version as your jumping off place. It does need inclusion of Pirut and Pup to get up to FC6 speed. I would really prefer that people work on this guide rather than spinning off brand-new docs that then have to be edited and tagged, etc., from the beginning again. (Documentation can also suffer from "NIH" and "too many itches" syndrome.) [...snip...] > Both methods result in output which can be easily accessed and indexed > if done > properly. The wiki can be the "mind mapping" tool with the DocBook as > the more > systematic, comprehensive output. > > Ideally, the cool wiki-DocBook conversion tools can continue to be > refined further so > that the choice is to have both available, each with their intrinsic > advantages, with > a minimum of manual editing. Seems to me a good starting point is porting the current guide to the wiki and then moving on from there, then. I think the idea of "two equal sources" for this text is currently a pipe dream. Instead, let's think of this as temporarily moving the canonical source, with the knowledge that there will be some re-tagging required on the way back to the original repository: CVS/DocBook (original repo) -> wiki (working repo to get more juice) -> CVS/DocBook (tagging, editing, and future work) [...snip...] > Bottom line: I volunteer to edit and help write a new section in the > wiki. Let's > call it > > "Installing and Updating Software - a Software Package Management > Guide". > > I will concentrate on the outline and will aim to keep it clear enough > for the > newbie. It will be divided into sections covering yum, pirut and pup. > As the guide > develops, intermediate and advanced topics will be introduced and > explored. > I hope other experienced writers such as yourself will contribute > their insights > and expertise. See above -- You'll have much more traction if you import what we already have in the yum guide into the wiki. You can expect more contribution with a more thorough coverage of the topic. And we can worry about the DocBook porting after that, I suppose. None of this addresses the problem of tag slippage between the wiki and DocBook. The point of having a wiki -> DocBook converter was to get raw content done there, port it to DocBook, and then continue in DocBook as the canonical source for all future changes. Moving stuff from DocBook -> wiki is a trivial problem; the reverse is practically impossible with current tools. If we have active contributors with enthusiasm, energy, and time, we need to encourage them to learn the canonical tools of the trade. If this were an art project, we wouldn't want people to spend a lot of time producing .BMP files in MS Paint instead of helping them use GIMP and Inkscape. Other analogies abound... -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 21:37:50 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:37:50 -0500 Subject: FC7 through FC10 Name Proposals In-Reply-To: <4555E5C0.9030905@fedoraproject.org> References: <369bce3b0610232216h4f5c27b2qb294abbcdcea6c03@mail.gmail.com> <20061024173812.GA7632@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <62bc09df0610250416h55544ca7p942e35045f056a3e@mail.gmail.com> <1161776779.6324.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <26c6e1310611110458h7c71b742me36491b8864f8635@mail.gmail.com> <4555E5C0.9030905@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1163367470.1553.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 16:01 +0100, Francesco Ugolini wrote: > samavedam vijay ha scritto: > > the name better be something which is challenging to windows vista!! > > the code name can be fedora emperor or something which can dominate > > windws vista!! > 2010 will be the fourth centenary of Galileo Galilei's experimental > dimostration of Heliocentric Model, that, surely, changed the vision of > the world and give scientist a miliar stone to improve their works. I > want to propose, if is possible, to give a code name (to one of the two > distribution of 2010) that remember this event. I have a proposal:/ > Sidereus/ , that is a part of the title (Sidereus Nuntius) of the book > write by Galilei about the question. > > I think that Open Source can be considered a Revolution in two sense: as > a return to a past condition of freedom and as the beggining oof a new > era. This, also, can be considered as a miliar stone for the future as > the Copernican revolution was and, actually, is. > > This is my opinion, what do you think ? These are all intriguing ideas, but this isn't really the right forum for them. Names are voted on by active maintainers, on fedora-maintainers mailing list, IIRC. Try taking this thread there, although I think chances will be lowered a bit by the way Fedora names are historically chosen. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ginu at ginugeorge.com Mon Nov 13 03:16:35 2006 From: ginu at ginugeorge.com (ginu at ginugeorge.com) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:16:35 -0600 Subject: Self Introduction : Ginu George In-Reply-To: <4556A99C.7090305@fedoraproject.org> References: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> <9d2c731f0611111231l298a8fbax2f6590d8ade4f263@mail.gmail.com> <4556A99C.7090305@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20061112211635.2a1zeyitdvtww84g@webmail.ginugeorge.com> Dear Team, I am Ginu George, working as a Team Lead for Technical Publications and Knowledge Management, currently with Ernst & Young in India. I was documenting software products for the last 6 years in various platforms. I think ( am not remembering the exact nos) i did documentations for nearly 80 projects and reviewed and edited other 200 projects. Rightnow am doing RHCE, to make me confident in Linux. I would like to initiate a Free Documentation Foundation (http://www.freedocumentation.org) for documenting and archiving all the free software/open source products documents, which includes Users Guide, Installation and Configuration, Knowledge Bases, Training Manuals, Maintanance, Operations Management etc. This in my long term plan to make all free software manuals to be available for general public for free and keep on updating with new relases. I hope so many people will come up to join this initative, so we can edit and maintain that later. (this is long term plan) This is going to be my third initative and the second one, KnowGenesis (knowgenesis.org and knowgenesis.net) is a great success. Stallman is one of our Advisor for the International Journal for Technical Communication. For KnowGenesis we are training people in the field of Technical Communication and Knowlede Management to make the foundation a helping hand in open research and free media iniatives. Regards Ginu George ginu at ginugeorge.com From jmbabich at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 07:12:01 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:12:01 +0300 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <1163367174.1553.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> <9d2c731f0611111231l298a8fbax2f6590d8ade4f263@mail.gmail.com> <4556A99C.7090305@fedoraproject.org> <9d2c731f0611112219x252871cfh2ecc1e04f87ccd64@mail.gmail.com> <1163367174.1553.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611122312g4a3a116ci92e09b4154331d11@mail.gmail.com> On 11/13/06, Paul W. Frields wrote: > See above -- You'll have much more traction if you import what we > already have in the yum guide into the wiki. You can expect more > contribution with a more thorough coverage of the topic. And we can > worry about the DocBook porting after that, I suppose. I am fine with using the yum guide as a basis for the "Installing and Updating Software Guide". I've only done a few basic pages, so it's no big deal for me to start over at this point. Do we need any permission to "move" it from the Redhat site to the wiki? > None of this addresses the problem of tag slippage between the wiki and > DocBook. The point of having a wiki -> DocBook converter was to get raw > content done there, port it to DocBook, and then continue in DocBook as > the canonical source for all future changes. Moving stuff from DocBook > -> wiki is a trivial problem; the reverse is practically impossible with > current tools. I found references to a DocBook->wiki conversion tool in the Summer of Code section. I couldn't find any instructions on how to perform this function. Can you do this or give me pointers on how it can be done? John Babich From kwade at redhat.com Mon Nov 13 17:26:00 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:26:00 -0800 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <4557346D.8060509@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20061111170025.9D1BE7347E@hormel.redhat.com> <4557346D.8060509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1163438760.3205.113.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 20:19 +0530, Shayin C K wrote: > I think it is a good idea. As soon as the 'Powers-that-be' approve it, > we can have a go at it. That was discussed; you all are the power here, the only delay is the one where we make sure we are doing the right things the right way as we proceed. :) > My own suggestions and ideas: > 1. The section on Getting Started begins with how it is similar > to/different from Microsoft Windows. I think Fedora has matured to a > point where we have to get rid of this Windows fixation where we have to > point out how better or worse Linux is compared to Windows. It should not be a better/worse but a comparison to what people understand. Since a flavor of Microsoft Windows has >75% of the desktop market, and many people who use OSX also have used Windows, it has become a common frame of reference. That said, your point is a good one. We want to watch for better/worse and focus on compare/contrast where it is useful. The story is simple -- one of the Microsoft tricks has been to take a generic word or generic OS/desktop ideas and make them a trademark. Take "Windows" and "Office" as two prime examples. It therefore makes it every hard to have a discussion about a desktop without either referring directly to a comparison from MS Windows, or having to use longer work around sentences to make it generic: "OpenOffice.org has matching functionality to Microsoft Office, with the ability to read and write from MS Office files, as well as support for the standard Open Document Format (ODF).: v. "OpenOffice.org is a productivity suite with tools that are useful to people using a desktop for doing standard office work. It includes a full-featured word processor, spreadsheet, and presentation software, as well as support for ODF ..." Which is a nice segue to your point below[1]. > 2. The Desktop user guide reads: "After reading this, you > _should_(emphasis mine) be able to ..." Suppose a user is not able to > all that? Is he supposed to feel bad about it? > I think our style should be more non-judgmental and without laying any > targets for the user. Let us not set any objectives for the user. Let > him get started. Let us not intimidate him. +1 Agreed about judgmental language. However, this is an interesting idiomatic situation. The word "should" is used here because things may not be exactly the same for the user; the should is way of saying, it is OK if things are not exactly the same. But because of the multiple meanings of that word in the sentence, it sounds as if a test is being applied -- you should be able to do this, and if you cannot, you are stupid. Wording might be better as: "This guide shows ... * How to log in to your computer * What is on the desktop ..." [1] Segue from above ... > 3. The number of technical sounding words can be brought down or at > least they can be suitably hyperlinked(another technical word ;-) ). For > example(fedora Desktop guide):The technical words: > login, layout, default, desktop, file, navigator, e-mail 'client', > web-browser, office suite, customize > Let us assume that a new user who has never used any > computer(Windows/non-windows) starts using Fedora Core and we have to > manage to get him working. Why do we assume that only a technically > experienced user will be switching to Linux? This is just my opinion here, so if the majority of the project wants to get into the business of teaching computer use from scratch, we can do that, but I do not think we should. We have to start from some base. If our base is always to teach users what a mouse is and how to use it, then we are: i. Reinventing documentation that exists in the thousands already; ii. Using time to teach basic skills rather than how to use those skills in Fedora; iii. Writing content that is not specific or unique to this Fedora. What I suggest is this: 1. Write up a brand new guide "What is a desktop and how do I use one" (or something like that); 2. Pair that guide with a glossary[2] that has: i. Links to other glossaries so we don't have to spend our time maintaining a document of "What does login mean" ii. Provides definitions for terms unique to Fedora, Linux, and FLOSS 3. Have the new "What is a desktop" guide linked from the intro for all guides that are for new/beginning users. Then we can have all guides say, "You need to know the material covered in X, Y, and Z." X, Y, and Z are then a set of guides that provide a base of common understanding that we can rely upon for the rest of the guide. Does this make sense? - Karsten [2] http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/jargon-buster/ and it needs updating -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Nov 13 17:46:39 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:46:39 -0800 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611112219x252871cfh2ecc1e04f87ccd64@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> <9d2c731f0611111231l298a8fbax2f6590d8ade4f263@mail.gmail.com> <4556A99C.7090305@fedoraproject.org> <9d2c731f0611112219x252871cfh2ecc1e04f87ccd64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1163439999.3205.135.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 09:19 +0300, John Babich wrote: > I see the wiki as the easier method to get timely information out in a > consistent > manner to both the newbie and power user. As long as that newbie can read and understand English. The Wiki is not going to be easily connected into the Fedora translation system. > The wiki even allows the newbie to participate in the process, which > explains the > popularity of the wiki format in the first place. Think of this in relation to Fedora development. The Wiki is a bit like rawhide or a test release. Yes, it can be canonical documentation, but it is ultimately harder to work with for a reader -- can't be printed, subject to unannounced change, not translated, can contain content that has not been tested thoroughly, etc. We mitigate this with having two namespaces, Docs/ and Docs/Drafts. Ultimately, just like with the distro, anything that is important to have a version in time that ties to a version of the distro must be in DocBook XML. A major goal of this project is to automate from the Wiki. You would be able to push a "Publish draft" button that: 1. Converts from Wiki -> XML, inserts XML into CVS 2. Builds XHTML from the XML, which is just the XML from CVS that might have been edited and commited from the Wiki, Emacs, Vi, Jedit, etc. * Also builds RPM, nochunks (one page) HTML, TGZ/ZIP of XHTML, PDF, TXT 3. Publishes the XHTML via CMS (Plone) into various channels: * Raw draft (akin to rawhide/devel) * Full draft (akin to Fedora test release) * Versioned (akin to full Fedora release or package update) 4. Links in RPM, nochunks (one page) HTML, TGZ/ZIP of XHTML, PDF, TXT We are actively working on making that happen, more programming help is definitely needed ASAP. :) > I see DocBook XML as the means to producing the technical reference > handbook > for the power user and developer. With DocBook, we can put our guide in the System > Help menu or be a part of the yum package. The guide can be right on the desktop, and updated regularly just like any package. We cannot do that with the Wiki. This is why I have been pushing to make the Wiki an editor one can choose (Emacs, Vi, OO.org, Wiki, etc.) rather than a format choice (Wiki v. XML). So, short answer is, yes, you are doing the right thing, especially if you are willing to help with the conversion when the time comes. Better to capture contributors via the Wiki so the tools aren't (perceived as) a barrier to helping. > Both methods result in output which can be easily accessed and indexed > if done > properly. The wiki can be the "mind mapping" tool with the DocBook as > the more > systematic, comprehensive output. Essentially, yes. The Wiki emphasizes collaboration over readability/usability. > Ideally, the cool wiki-DocBook conversion tools can continue to be > refined further so > that the choice is to have both available, each with their intrinsic > advantages, with > a minimum of manual editing. Or total automation. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 19:53:29 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:53:29 -0500 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611122312g4a3a116ci92e09b4154331d11@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> <9d2c731f0611111231l298a8fbax2f6590d8ade4f263@mail.gmail.com> <4556A99C.7090305@fedoraproject.org> <9d2c731f0611112219x252871cfh2ecc1e04f87ccd64@mail.gmail.com> <1163367174.1553.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611122312g4a3a116ci92e09b4154331d11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1163447609.4606.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 10:12 +0300, John Babich wrote: > On 11/13/06, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > See above -- You'll have much more traction if you import what we > > already have in the yum guide into the wiki. You can expect more > > contribution with a more thorough coverage of the topic. And we can > > worry about the DocBook porting after that, I suppose. > > I am fine with using the yum guide as a basis for the "Installing and Updating > Software Guide". I've only done a few basic pages, so it's no big deal for me > to start over at this point. > > Do we need any permission to "move" it from the Redhat site to the wiki? Absolutely not, it's really *our* space anyway. You are free to use it however you wish. Consider this a "copy" operation for now, and we'll copy your updates over in the near future, God willing and the creek don't rise. > > None of this addresses the problem of tag slippage between the wiki and > > DocBook. The point of having a wiki -> DocBook converter was to get raw > > content done there, port it to DocBook, and then continue in DocBook as > > the canonical source for all future changes. Moving stuff from DocBook > > -> wiki is a trivial problem; the reverse is practically impossible with > > current tools. > > I found references to a DocBook->wiki conversion tool in the Summer of > Code section. I couldn't find any instructions on how to perform this function. > Can you do this or give me pointers on how it can be done? I think we only finished the other side of that conversion (wiki -> DB), but this side is actually less difficult. Do you mind checking around the lazyweb to see if someone else has done it already? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 19:58:51 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:58:51 -0500 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <1163439999.3205.135.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> <9d2c731f0611111231l298a8fbax2f6590d8ade4f263@mail.gmail.com> <4556A99C.7090305@fedoraproject.org> <9d2c731f0611112219x252871cfh2ecc1e04f87ccd64@mail.gmail.com> <1163439999.3205.135.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1163447931.4606.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 09:46 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 09:19 +0300, John Babich wrote: > > > I see the wiki as the easier method to get timely information out in a > > consistent > > manner to both the newbie and power user. > > As long as that newbie can read and understand English. The Wiki is not > going to be easily connected into the Fedora translation system. Thank goodness Karsten is around to bring up the really big stuff. I seem to always miss the forest for the trees. :-) Yes, this is another super-big argument in favor of CVS + DocBook. It would be even bigger (airtight?) if we had a better linkup with Translation for this work. > > The wiki even allows the newbie to participate in the process, which > > explains the > > popularity of the wiki format in the first place. > > Think of this in relation to Fedora development. The Wiki is a bit like > rawhide or a test release. Yes, it can be canonical documentation, but > it is ultimately harder to work with for a reader -- can't be printed, > subject to unannounced change, not translated, can contain content that > has not been tested thoroughly, etc. > > We mitigate this with having two namespaces, Docs/ and Docs/Drafts. > Ultimately, just like with the distro, anything that is important to > have a version in time that ties to a version of the distro must be in > DocBook XML. > > A major goal of this project is to automate from the Wiki. You would be > able to push a "Publish draft" button that: > > 1. Converts from Wiki -> XML, inserts XML into CVS > 2. Builds XHTML from the XML, which is just the XML from CVS that might > have been edited and commited from the Wiki, Emacs, Vi, Jedit, etc. > * Also builds RPM, nochunks (one page) HTML, TGZ/ZIP of XHTML, PDF, > TXT > 3. Publishes the XHTML via CMS (Plone) into various channels: > * Raw draft (akin to rawhide/devel) > * Full draft (akin to Fedora test release) > * Versioned (akin to full Fedora release or package update) > 4. Links in RPM, nochunks (one page) HTML, TGZ/ZIP of XHTML, PDF, TXT > > We are actively working on making that happen, more programming help is > definitely needed ASAP. :) Yes, it is. This is a sizable piece of work, and no one has stepped up to claim it in the Infrastructure team. We can give guidance but very few people around this subproject have the l33t h4cking skillz to actually build this stuff. Another idea for the Plone toolset just occurred to me. I'll make a new thread to avoid derailing this one. > > I see DocBook XML as the means to producing the technical reference > > handbook > > for the power user and developer. > > With DocBook, we can put our guide in the System > Help menu or be a > part of the yum package. The guide can be right on the desktop, and > updated regularly just like any package. We cannot do that with the > Wiki. > > This is why I have been pushing to make the Wiki an editor one can > choose (Emacs, Vi, OO.org, Wiki, etc.) rather than a format choice (Wiki > v. XML). > > So, short answer is, yes, you are doing the right thing, especially if > you are willing to help with the conversion when the time comes. Better > to capture contributors via the Wiki so the tools aren't (perceived as) > a barrier to helping. Yup, just look at this as the "li'l ones playset"... Emacs and DocBook XMl are what the big kids use. > > Both methods result in output which can be easily accessed and indexed > > if done > > properly. The wiki can be the "mind mapping" tool with the DocBook as > > the more > > systematic, comprehensive output. > > Essentially, yes. The Wiki emphasizes collaboration over > readability/usability. And all that that entails... ;-) > > Ideally, the cool wiki-DocBook conversion tools can continue to be > > refined further so > > that the choice is to have both available, each with their intrinsic > > advantages, with > > a minimum of manual editing. > > Or total automation. :) See next thread... ;-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 20:08:31 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:08:31 -0500 Subject: A Modest Proposal for a New Guide In-Reply-To: <1163438760.3205.113.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20061111170025.9D1BE7347E@hormel.redhat.com> <4557346D.8060509@yahoo.co.uk> <1163438760.3205.113.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1163448511.4606.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 09:26 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > What I suggest is this: > > 1. Write up a brand new guide "What is a desktop and how do I use > one" (or something like that); > 2. Pair that guide with a glossary[2] that has: > i. Links to other glossaries so we don't have to spend our time > maintaining a document of "What does login mean" > ii. Provides definitions for terms unique to Fedora, Linux, and FLOSS > 3. Have the new "What is a desktop" guide linked from the intro for all > guides that are for new/beginning users. > > Then we can have all guides say, "You need to know the material covered > in X, Y, and Z." X, Y, and Z are then a set of guides that provide a > base of common understanding that we can rely upon for the rest of the > guide. > > Does this make sense? > > - Karsten > [2] http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/jargon-buster/ and it needs updating ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bugs gratefully accepted. A bug filed against Fedora Documentation, jargon-buster can include as little as a list of terms. I'm happy to write the definitions. If a bug-filer wants to provide a definition for my use, that also makes me smile. :-) See? Smiling already! https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora +Documentation&component=jargon-buster&version=devel -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 20:18:13 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:18:13 -0500 Subject: Toolset idea Message-ID: <1163449093.4606.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> This might be a useful mode of thinking about the Wiki/Plone+DocBook+SCM [1] duality that does not put any burden on contributors who don't want to learn the latter toolchain. What if Plone was set up so that: 1) The Wiki side was published automatically from a DocBook -> wiki conversion mechanism, provided no blocking tag is in the way. 2) If someone edits the Wiki, it automatically gets an aforementioned blocking tag that says, "Manual change here!" 3) The commit to the wiki is automatically entered into the Fedora Bugzilla as a bug, which goes to the owner of the doc in question via the normal route. The bug entry could be as simple as the commit message itself. 4) Once the writer addresses the bug, the editor approves it and clears the blocking tag from the wiki page. This might be susceptible to automation too. 5) Next automatic publication sees the user's fix in the wiki as well as every other place. This workflow idea encourages not only "unskilled" contributions from the whole community but ensures that we keep the wiki and CVS+DB in sync as much as possible. Bugs always make it clear what needs to be done. I found that as I watched the release notes over the entire Rawhide -> test1 -> test2 -> test3 -> final cycle for FC6, I was able to keep up much better with editing changes by watching my email for wiki commits. As I addressed a page, I could clear out every email concerning that page up to the date I last visited it for an editorial pass. Sending wiki commits to bugs in this fashion would make (I think) a very efficient way of syncing our material, keeping SCM + DocBook as the canonical source while locking no one out of the contribution process. Maybe this is not something novel, and I'm just late to the party as usual. Thoughts? = = = [1] SCM = Source Code Management, whether we move to git, hg, or something else other than CVS in the future -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Nov 13 20:23:30 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:23:30 -0800 Subject: Self Introduction : Ginu George In-Reply-To: <20061112211635.2a1zeyitdvtww84g@webmail.ginugeorge.com> References: <9d2c731f0611110047w2add3029l9bdfc2b5e4578f8d@mail.gmail.com> <1163269508.3205.58.camel@erato.phig.org> <9d2c731f0611111231l298a8fbax2f6590d8ade4f263@mail.gmail.com> <4556A99C.7090305@fedoraproject.org> <20061112211635.2a1zeyitdvtww84g@webmail.ginugeorge.com> Message-ID: <1163449410.3205.166.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2006-11-12 at 21:16 -0600, ginu at ginugeorge.com wrote: > Dear Team, > > I am Ginu George, working as a Team Lead for Technical Publications and > Knowledge Management, currently with Ernst & Young in India. I was documenting > software products for the last 6 years in various platforms. I think ( am not > remembering the exact nos) i did documentations for nearly 80 projects and > reviewed and edited other 200 projects. Excellent, welcome. > Rightnow am doing RHCE, to make me confident in Linux. I would like to > initiate > a Free Documentation Foundation (http://www.freedocumentation.org) for > documenting and archiving all the free > software/open source products documents, which includes Users Guide, > Installation and Configuration, Knowledge Bases, Training Manuals, > Maintanance, > Operations Management etc. This in my long term plan to make all free software > manuals to be available for general public for free and keep on updating with > new relases. I hope so many people will come up to join this initative, so we > can edit and maintain that later. (this is long term plan) > > > This is going to be my third initative and the second one, KnowGenesis > (knowgenesis.org and knowgenesis.net) is a great success. Stallman is one of > our Advisor for the International Journal for Technical Communication. For > KnowGenesis we are training people in the field of Technical Communication and > Knowlede Management to make the foundation a helping hand in open research and > free media iniatives. Thank you for joining us. Fedora is very interested in being both upstream and downstream providers of content. In the downstream case, we want to contribute in meaningful ways back up to common documentation bases. Right now we can do that by e.g. editing documentation from upstream. We are not actively doing this as a group, but could be. Tools would help here. As upstream providers, we want to provide a common Fedora documentation base that can be reused for Fedora derivatives. Additionally, we are providing a Fedora-based toolchain that is a full documentation editing system (SCM + Wiki + XML + CMS) ... doing that one piece at a time. This sounds compatible with your ideas and activities, perhaps? Cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 13 20:50:21 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 02:20:21 +0530 Subject: GNOME library Message-ID: <4558DA8D.20303@fedoraproject.org> Hi This effort looks interesting. Maybe there are things to learn from and adopt especially the application http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/Library Rahul From dwolinski at ll.mit.edu Mon Nov 13 21:08:11 2006 From: dwolinski at ll.mit.edu (David Wolinski) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:08:11 -0500 Subject: Self-introduction: Dave Wolinski Message-ID: <1163452092.8813.54.camel@whirlaway> Hi, My name is Dave Wolinski. I live in the Boston, MA, area and do research/development work for MIT Lincoln Laboratory. I've been a Red Hat enthusiast for many years and use Fedora both at work and home. I've been consistently impressed with the quality of this free product and would like to give something back to the Fedora community. Since I'm basically a hack programmer, it seems that documentation would be a good way to achieve this goal (and hopefully learn something in the process). Like exercising or other painful but rewarding activities, I enjoy having written (i.e. past tense) something well. In my limited spare time I hope to contribute to the very finite (though interesting) topic of building a customized kernel (thanks to Sam F-W for steering me this way). Cheers, Dave ---------- pub 1024D/6B214FAA 2005-07-23 Key fingerprint = A994 677C 44FB EF66 84F9 EF7B 8C8B 4FFC 6B21 4FAA uid David S. Wolinski sub 2048g/A2CFCCD9 2005-07-23 From emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr Mon Nov 13 21:14:01 2006 From: emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr (Emmanuel Seyman) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:14:01 +0100 Subject: Kudos Message-ID: <20061113211401.GA10171@orient.maison.lan> Found on planetmandriva.zarb.org: http://www.happyassassin.net/2006/11/10/errata/ "I have to go on record and say I?m deeply jealous of the FC6 release notes, though. Our 2007 release notes are fine, but that?s just a hellr of an effort. Kudos to whoever put it together." Emmanuel From samfw at redhat.com Mon Nov 13 21:49:11 2006 From: samfw at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:49:11 -0500 Subject: Self-introduction: Dave Wolinski In-Reply-To: <1163452092.8813.54.camel@whirlaway> References: <1163452092.8813.54.camel@whirlaway> Message-ID: <1163454551.3491.76.camel@dhcp59-130.rdu.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 16:08 -0500, David Wolinski wrote: > Hi, > > My name is Dave Wolinski. I live in the Boston, MA, area and do > research/development work for MIT Lincoln Laboratory. > > I've been a Red Hat enthusiast for many years and use Fedora both at > work and home. I've been consistently impressed with the quality of > this free product and would like to give something back to the Fedora > community. Since I'm basically a hack programmer, it seems that > documentation would be a good way to achieve this goal (and hopefully > learn something in the process). Like exercising or other painful but > rewarding activities, I enjoy having written (i.e. past tense) something > well. > > In my limited spare time I hope to contribute to the very finite (though > interesting) topic of building a customized kernel (thanks to Sam F-W > for steering me this way). > Welcome Dave :-) Dave has contacted me off-line about adding a how-to for how to do kernel compiles in Fedora (like to apply a patch). He and are working on this together. Sam > Cheers, > Dave > > ---------- > pub 1024D/6B214FAA 2005-07-23 > Key fingerprint = A994 677C 44FB EF66 84F9 > EF7B 8C8B 4FFC 6B21 4FAA > uid David S. Wolinski > sub 2048g/A2CFCCD9 2005-07-23 > > -- Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE Global Support Services -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 00:37:44 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:37:44 -0500 Subject: Self-introduction: Dave Wolinski In-Reply-To: <1163454551.3491.76.camel@dhcp59-130.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1163452092.8813.54.camel@whirlaway> <1163454551.3491.76.camel@dhcp59-130.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1163551064.3740.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 16:49 -0500, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 16:08 -0500, David Wolinski wrote: > > Hi, > > > > My name is Dave Wolinski. I live in the Boston, MA, area and do > > research/development work for MIT Lincoln Laboratory. > > > > I've been a Red Hat enthusiast for many years and use Fedora both at > > work and home. I've been consistently impressed with the quality of > > this free product and would like to give something back to the Fedora > > community. Since I'm basically a hack programmer, it seems that > > documentation would be a good way to achieve this goal (and hopefully > > learn something in the process). Like exercising or other painful but > > rewarding activities, I enjoy having written (i.e. past tense) something > > well. > > > > In my limited spare time I hope to contribute to the very finite (though > > interesting) topic of building a customized kernel (thanks to Sam F-W > > for steering me this way). > > > > Welcome Dave :-) > > Dave has contacted me off-line about adding a how-to for how to do > kernel compiles in Fedora (like to apply a patch). He and are working on > this together. Excellent! Make sure you visit the Release Notes beat regarding this subject to make sure our technical advice lines up correctly. I believe there may be a bug in Bugzilla attaching someone's prior work on this subject as well, but it had some technical holes. You may be able to salvage some of the narrative, work in the newer and more accurate technical parts, and add to it your own material. Let the list know if/when you need help. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Nov 15 17:08:48 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 09:08:48 -0800 Subject: FDSCo semi-meeting minutes Message-ID: <1163610528.3205.254.camel@erato.phig.org> Due to sudden familiness, I wasn't able to attend the meeting yesterday. Some stuff was discussed, I dragged it from the IRC log, and here it is: * New Fedora Infrastructure (FI) members have been working on putting squid proxies in front of Moin Moin. However, taking advantage of the proxies requires an update to 1.5+ or another patch. * They are also putting together a test instance of the Wiki in the Phoenix datacenter. This lets us test upgrades and see what problems we are going to have with migrating content, etc. * Paul requested that the governor that limits how hard pages can be hit be removed either permanently or during release cycles. We need this so we can get the relnotes as XML out of Docs/Beats/ using a script. Since only CLA-having people can edit the Wiki, there is probably no need for the governor. Mike McGrath/FI will look into this. * Not covered in this meeting, but worth noting: - Python versioning on fpserv.fedoraproject.org is preventing us from rolling out the Plone instance. We are waiting for upgrading to RHEL 5/CentOS 5 to get the new Python version. This pushes the Plone roll out back to at least January 2007. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 21:18:44 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 00:18:44 +0300 Subject: A Three-pronged Approach to Fedora Documents Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611161318u7b82eeber8033e8e08bd04189@mail.gmail.com> Karsten, Paul and Fellow Team Members: INTERESTING TIMES I have been digesting the amazing news over the past month, as I'm sure you all have. GNU/Linux distributions, including Red Hat and the Fedora Project, have been under intense scrutiny and discussion by IT pundits and business analysts. By coincidence, the Fedora Summit has just ended. My impression is that it was a successful series of meetings. There were frank discussions of our failings, and decisive steps taken to improve the overall quality of Fedora. What has this to do with the Fedora Documentation Project? Did I post to the wrong mailing list? No, I didn't. It has everything to do with our small band of intrepid volunteers, of whom I am proud to be counted among its members. Now more than ever, the Fedora Project has captured the public's attention. Now is the time to improve the "public face" of Fedora. In my humble opinion, our website, federaproject.org, is Fedora's primary public face. (This is not to downplay the importance of one-to-one contacts, Fedora Ambassadors and the other organized Fedora activities). I joined the Fedora Websites Project within the past few days. The Fedora website is the medium by which we publish our hard work, the guides we produce for consumption by our Fedora Core users, and the documents needed to effectively run the Fedora Project. >From what I have been reading on the mailing lists and the Fedora Summit discussions, from my public exchanges and private correspondence with Fedora Doc team members, I am encouraged and inspired to get more involved. Forgive me in advance for the length of this correspondence. I hope you find it worthwhile. THE WAY FORWARD Here are some ideas I find encouraging (I take full responsibility for any misinterpretations). These are also very much open for discussion and debate. 1. MoinMoin Wiki - to jointly revise documents Currently, we are taking this approach with the "Software Management Guide". Once we're happy with the results, we can then turn guides like this into more permanent forms like DocBook XML. I am looking into ways to use Gedit and the new Plugins feature to speed up the process. The "Tag Lines" plugin looks very promising. This keeps the barrier to entry very low. ADVANTAGE: Ease-of-use, low barrier to entry. 2. Plone Content Management System (CMS) - for a more polished look We can use the Plone application for static pages and a more polished look. Of course, we need to decide what exactly is "static" versus "dynamic". I propose that the "index.html" or equivalent be static, with dynamic updating going on in Drafts. Once a document is finalized, then we can make it "static" in Plone and jointly edit the new version in MoinMoin. ADVANTAGE: Polished presentation and possible improvement in maintenance. 3. Emacs and DocBook XML - for greater flexibility We can use Emacs and DocBook XML to publish our efforts in any desired format: web pages, PDFs, Postscript, etc. The advantage of this is the "write once, use often" approach, which is a primary tenet of modular programming and the basis of FLOSS. These documents are also the base for the many translations which are produced by our Translation team members. ADVANTAGE: Modular efficiencies, "reuse of code", standard "code" base There are definite disadvantages to this three-pronged approach. It would be great if we could do everything with one tool - maybe someday soon we will. For now, we can enjoy the advantages this approach offers. Now here are the disadvantages, which I would rather call challenges. THE CHALLENGES 1. Complexity. Three tools are harder to use than one tool. Most of us know one tool really well, some of us know two tools pretty well, and a few know all the tools (of whom we stand in awe). For instance, I've got a pretty good handle on MoinMoin, a desire to learn Plone, and a basic grasp of Emacs and DocBook XML. There is also the issue of conversion from one format to the other. This is why the team approach (the bazaar) is so powerful. As a community, we are stronger than as individuals. We can pool our talent and produce a whole greater than the sum of its parts. We also have powerful FLOSS tools. SOLUTION: Teamwork, teamwork, teamwork and tools, tools, tools 2. Coordination of Effort. This is always a challenge. Many times "we have a failure to communicate". The good news is we have great tools at our disposal: wikis, email, IRC channels, etc. People are making good money promoting "collaboration". We have the tools we need already at hand - we just have to make use of them. New tools are emerging like VoIP. SOLUTION: Use our great FLOSS communication tools creatively 3. Multilingual Teams. This is a challenge that arises from our success. GNU/linux is a truly global phenomenon. Just look at all the languages our Fedora Translation team supports. I can tell you from personal experience that this challenge is overcome everyday by international and multinational companies. My current employer (who, for the record, is not officially sponsoring my strictly volunteer efforts) employs over 40 nationalities from many different cultures and languages. Somehow we manage to execute large engineering projects all over the world, and execute them well. I especially love English in all of its shades and subleties. My personal challenge is to consider my audience first. I try to speak and write in clear standard English. It's amazing how many local dialects of English exist. Our challenge is to write and speak English free of idioms and local color - and still have impact ("pack a punch"). We should do this out of respect for our Fedora users for whom English is a second language. SOLUTION: Use standard English and be sensitive to difference in language and culture. 4. Dedication. This is a personal decision - how to invest your limited time and resources. Again, the solution is to prioritize your life. How important are the goals and objectives of the Fedora Project to you personally. How has the recent news affected you? Has it made you glad or mad, discouraged or more determined? SOLUTION: Up to you. FUTURE TOPICS 1, Upstream contribution to other documentation projects (for example, GNOME). 2. Improvements to document conversion tools. 3. Better communication (VoIP, online presence tools [MugShot?]) To quote Dennis Miller, "This is my opinion - I could be wrong" :-) John Babich From kwade at redhat.com Fri Nov 17 06:18:00 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:18:00 -0800 Subject: GNOME library In-Reply-To: <4558DA8D.20303@fedoraproject.org> References: <4558DA8D.20303@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1163744280.3205.372.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-11-14 at 02:20 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > This effort looks interesting. Maybe there are things to learn from and > adopt especially the application > > http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/Library Wow, those are some clever ideas. One demo that is working is: http://kvota.net/sarma/view.py?document=1 That's a DocBook XML document editable through a Web interface, with workflow wrapped into it. We should definitely look at using 'sarma'; we need someone from FI to work with us to find out about the stability of the tool and possibly set up an instance in a virt environment to run some tests with. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 07:59:58 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:59:58 +0300 Subject: GNOME library In-Reply-To: <1163744280.3205.372.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4558DA8D.20303@fedoraproject.org> <1163744280.3205.372.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611162359s51a2c54ai3d884aed447968aa@mail.gmail.com> This is the one tool to rule them all. When this is ready, there's no need for a three-pronged approach (MoinMoin, Plone, Docbook XML). Sarma promises to be the best of both worlds. You have the flexibility of output from DocBook with the ease-of-use of wiki-style online editing. To top it off, it's GPLed and part of an upstream project, GNOME. It's definitely worth exploring. John Babich On 11/17/06, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2006-11-14 at 02:20 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > > > > > This effort looks interesting. Maybe there are things to learn from and > > adopt especially the application > > > > http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/Library > > Wow, those are some clever ideas. One demo that is working is: > > http://kvota.net/sarma/view.py?document=1 > > That's a DocBook XML document editable through a Web interface, with > workflow wrapped into it. > > We should definitely look at using 'sarma'; we need someone from FI to > work with us to find out about the stability of the tool and possibly > set up an instance in a virt environment to run some tests with. > > - Karsten > From draciron at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 09:24:28 2006 From: draciron at gmail.com (Dan Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 03:24:28 -0600 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: Greetings folks. Wasn't born wth Draciron as a name. Made it up to use as a pen name and a stage name (Play guitar & bass). I'm a 40 year old long haired Linux enthusiast. My qualifications besides willingness. Made my living for last 17 years or so by cussing at computers. Believe it or not people pay pretty good for that. Sometimes I even made them work :) Started as a programmer. Then being one of the few folks willing to learn SQL in the early days I got trapped into being the DBA of test systems, then small production systems, then full scale millions of records type systems. Just when I got good at it they made me a project manager. I had a nasty habit of caring a bit too much about the customer. So I went back to being a programmer/DBA/Project lead AKA cussing at computers. Unlike sys admins who get to cuss at computers in public sometimes they'd stick me in a cube with other cussers or way back in the artic circle otherwise known as offices next to or in the server room. One day I show up for a new programming job and they make me a System architect. Not quite sure how that happened but turns out I was pretty good at it. So of course nobody wanted to let me do that again. Once I was done archetecting (Is that a word?) I showed up for a programming job. Turns out the guy I was replacing wasn't actually a programmer. They only called him one. He was a pretty good robot builder and Sys Admin. I made the mistake of admiting I'd built and run small test networks. So I became the backup admin for a major lab and an entire department. In the years I was there I actually forgot most of what I knew about coding despite my job title for the first few years having developer in it. I never wrote code. I filled out more lines on forms than wrote lines of code. Turned into a pretty good Sys admin. Also served as DBA for the groups I was attached too, pushed paper and did lots of network security. Enjoyed that and was pretty good at that as well. I guess this means nobody will hire me to do that either now. On the serious side. I've been doing IT for a long time proffesionally. Before that as a hobby and semi-pro. I am also a writer. Novels tend to be more of what I write. Not all of them are emails either. Contrary to this email I do know where the spell and grammer checkers are and use them for anything I turn in to be read by an audience. Most of my technical writing has been documenting programs I wrote, System arch that I designed, how to's on various topics for companies I've worked for and articles on network security. My favorite way to write a technical how to is to walk somebody through the process I'm trying to describe in the doc. The hardest part I have is that things which for me are instinctive and second nature are not always universally understood by my intended audience. By walking somebody thorugh it and taking copious notes during the torture session, I remember those little steps that make a big difference if you don't do it and gain the benifit of questions that I would not have thought to answer otherwise. Sometimes questions I do not know off hand, even with software I wrote. I can tell you how it worked but sometimes the why behind it wasn't always so clear in the specs I worked from. My experience with Linux started with a friend trying to convince me to convert my 386-sx-40 to use Linux. I only had a meg of ram on it but this didn't seem to phase my friend. I read up and it needed way more RAM than I had. A few years later, around 96 I bought a Slackware CD. I was curious about Linux. Even got it to install on a 486 DX2-66. Took me a week. The biggest problem was that the CD controller wasn't IDE. It was on the Sound card. A very common way of doing things back then. After I got it installed I said cool and could not find any reference to the commands. X wasn't installed. So my next foray was with either Caldara 2.0 or RedHat 5.0 I was running both distros on different machines for a time. I actually got usefull things done with these distros. Wasn't until RH 6 that I actually really got into Linux. By RH 6.3 I was doing most things on Linux but still relied on Windoze boxes for Internet and several other tasks which I couldn't find Linux equivs or they didn't exist yet. In 2000 I started working in a Linux shop. That was when I finally went all Linux. I still had RH 6.3 on my main home machine as late as 2001. I have run several distros but RH/Fedora has always been the best distro out there. Ever since 6.3there's been nothing close. I am just now trying out FC6. In fact that is why I don't have this email signed. Yum has my machine a little handcuffed. Soon as I'm down getting all of the hundreds of apps I want installed on the machine then I can generate the critter. Yum's kinda busy until then :) I've used every version RH has put out from 5.0 to FC5 extensively except FC1 which I never even tried and FC4 which I used for a week and took the machine back to FC3 until FC5 came out. Currently I run two FC5 boxes and just moved this machine from FC3 to FC6. I've also used RHE but not extensively. I am a musician, and can also probably help with sound related stuff. Security related stuff. Database related work. Server related configuration. Well hopefully that gives y'all a pretty good idea about me and my technical background. I hope it'll be handy with one documentation project or another. Will be happy to submit a sample of more formal type writing. I do spell and grammar check when writing formally. Also please don't ask me to write docs on old school nix stuff like vi. I'd rather chew my leg off with a dull vampire bat than use vi. Good to meet y'all, at least the ones still awake after opening this email. My ex-used to say that all she needed when she couldn't sleep was to ask me about computers. She'd be sound asleep in minutes. Drac -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Nov 17 11:33:31 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:33:31 +0000 Subject: GNOME library In-Reply-To: <1163744280.3205.372.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4558DA8D.20303@fedoraproject.org> <1163744280.3205.372.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <455D9E0B.3010407@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > On Tue, 2006-11-14 at 02:20 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi >> >> >> This effort looks interesting. Maybe there are things to learn from and >> adopt especially the application >> >> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/Library > > Wow, those are some clever ideas. One demo that is working is: > > http://kvota.net/sarma/view.py?document=1 > > That's a DocBook XML document editable through a Web interface, with > workflow wrapped into it. > > We should definitely look at using 'sarma'; we need someone from FI to > work with us to find out about the stability of the tool and possibly > set up an instance in a virt environment to run some tests with. This looks very promising indeed. I'll dig into it some more later on today. Hopefully one of the FI folks will arrange a setup for us to play with it a bit. :) -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Nov 17 11:29:00 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:59:00 +0530 Subject: GNOME library In-Reply-To: <455D9E0B.3010407@glezos.com> References: <4558DA8D.20303@fedoraproject.org> <1163744280.3205.372.camel@erato.phig.org> <455D9E0B.3010407@glezos.com> Message-ID: <455D9CFC.3020700@fedoraproject.org> Dimitris Glezos wrote: > This looks very promising indeed. > > I'll dig into it some more later on today. Hopefully one of the FI folks > will arrange a setup for us to play with it a bit. :) You will have to mail fedora-infrastructure list with your requirements or pop up in #fedora-admin and talk to them. I dont think many of them are watching all the conversations here. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Sat Nov 18 00:19:56 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 19:19:56 -0500 Subject: GNOME library In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611162359s51a2c54ai3d884aed447968aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <4558DA8D.20303@fedoraproject.org> <1163744280.3205.372.camel@erato.phig.org> <9d2c731f0611162359s51a2c54ai3d884aed447968aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1163809196.7610.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-11-17 at 10:59 +0300, John Babich wrote: > This is the one tool to rule them all. When this is ready, there's no > need for a three-pronged approach (MoinMoin, Plone, Docbook XML). > > Sarma promises to be the best of both worlds. You have the flexibility > of output from DocBook with the ease-of-use of wiki-style online > editing. To top it off, it's GPLed and part of an upstream project, > GNOME. > > It's definitely worth exploring. +1! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Nov 18 15:36:53 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:36:53 -0800 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1163864214.15617.21.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-11-17 at 03:24 -0600, Dan Smith wrote: > Greetings folks. > > Wasn't born wth Draciron as a name. Made it up to use as a pen name > and a stage name (Play guitar & bass). I'm a 40 year old long haired > Linux enthusiast. > > My qualifications besides willingness. [snip lots of good quals] I can see we are going to introduce you to some editing-for-brevity. ;-D > I am a musician, and can also probably help with sound related stuff. > Security related stuff. Database related work. Server related > configuration. We've been doing most collaborative writing via the Wiki. FWIW, XML in CVS is actually easier to collaborate on, but you just can't convince people of that when they are looking at a Wiki with an [Edit] button. So, I accept that. :) From your intro, I can guess you might enjoy working on the 'Fedora Administration Guide', which is targeted at syadmins: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AdministrationGuide OTOH, there are a few documents that are programming oriented, and which we have no one with expertise to work on them. For example, this needs *serious* reworking (about four releases out of date): http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/developers-guide/ (It should be called 'Developer Guide' instead of 'Developer's Guide'.) If you feel like getting dirty with actual programming, we have a nicely complex toolchain and some other work that we do directly ourselves or working with the Fedora Infrastructure team. Something to contemplate. > Well hopefully that gives y'all a pretty good idea about me and my > technical background. I hope it'll be handy with one documentation > project or another. Will be happy to submit a sample of more formal > type writing. I do spell and grammar check when writing formally. > Also please don't ask me to write docs on old school nix stuff like > vi. I'd rather chew my leg off with a dull vampire bat than use vi. Oh, never. We don't want to repeat all that stuff that has been written already; a hyperlink is just so much easier to write. Our focus is on Fedora, what is in Fedora, and what can be done with Fedora. This is true whether the audience is newbies or deep-mode hackers. > Good to meet y'all, at least the ones still awake after opening this > email. My ex-used to say that all she needed when she couldn't sleep > was to ask me about computers. She'd be sound asleep in minutes. *schnore, zzzzzzz, snup* Huh, what? Oh, yeah, thanks, good to meet you, too. Come visit us on #fedora-docs on irc.freenode.net for questions or related-to-anything chat. - Karsten (quaid) -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Nov 18 17:39:15 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 09:39:15 -0800 Subject: A Three-pronged Approach to Fedora Documents In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611161318u7b82eeber8033e8e08bd04189@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0611161318u7b82eeber8033e8e08bd04189@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1163871555.15617.75.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-11-17 at 00:18 +0300, John Babich wrote: > Karsten, Paul and Fellow Team Members: John, this is a good write-up that reflects mostly-accurately the grown-to situation we are in. That is, we have organically grown into "what works" as much as we have planned it carefully. Feel free to update the DocsProject pages in the Wiki to reflect this approach, where it fails to make that clear. Because of the organic growth, we haven't always gone back to clean up the various leftover processes and half-completed ideas. Still, seeing this clarity from you gives me hope that it can be equally clear for others. :) Just a few additions/corrections/observations: > Now more than ever, the Fedora Project has captured the public's > attention. Now is the time to improve the "public face" of Fedora. Agreed. In fact, I think there is some sentiment that Fedora can begin to do more self-promotion. To be honest, I think the Fedora Project has been afraid of users who are new to Linux. That is, the fear is not amongst the ground folks who solve problems daily on fedora-list, #fedora, fedoraforum.org, etc. I mean the project leadership and majority of technical achievers. I've long maintained that Fedora is both what we want it to be and what it becomes by itself. This is one reason that the FDP focuses on users of all levels, even where the overall project does not advertise itself as "for the beginner". Honestly, I don't think the technical situation is going to change. Fedora is always going to have more leading-edge technology and associated rough user experience. That just makes our jobs here that much more important. While the solution to document something instead of make it work better without documentation is not my favorite solution, I want to get to a point where highly technical contributors in Fedora are using good documentation as a way to mitigate the challenges of being so leading-edge. > Forgive me in advance for the length of this correspondence. I hope > you find it worthwhile. Personally, it makes me proud of our work to have a newer someone feed the situation back so accurately. > THE WAY FORWARD > > Here are some ideas I find encouraging (I take full responsibility for > any misinterpretations). > These are also very much open for discussion and debate. > > 1. MoinMoin Wiki - to jointly revise documents > > Currently, we are taking this approach with the "Software Management > Guide". Once we're happy with the results, we can then turn guides > like this into more permanent forms like DocBook XML. I am looking > into ways to use Gedit and the new Plugins feature to speed up the > process. The "Tag Lines" plugin looks very promising. This keeps the > barrier to entry very low. > > ADVANTAGE: Ease-of-use, low barrier to entry. Eclipse may also have a plug-in for working offline. If it doesn't, we should get someone to write one. The purpose is to increase the documentation we get from Fedora developers. There are also a number of ways that content comes into FDP that you didn't cover here. These are discussed here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Process#submitting Note number 4. There are also new ways that RHEL developers can make commits to CVS and have them update bugzilla reports, etc. That is a process and toolchain we need to learn more about and find out how to make it fit into the release notes process. The idea is that we can take in all manner of content suggestions, and some goes to release notes, others to installation guide, admin guide, desktop guide, etc. > 2. Plone Content Management System (CMS) - for a more polished look > > We can use the Plone application for static pages and a more polished > look. Of course, we need to decide what exactly is "static" versus > "dynamic". I propose that the "index.html" or equivalent be static, > with dynamic updating going on in Drafts. Once a document is > finalized, then we can make it "static" in Plone and jointly edit the > new version in MoinMoin. > > ADVANTAGE: Polished presentation and possible improvement in maintenance. Guaranteed improvements in maintenance. :) Our current publishing situation for anything that is not the Wiki is quite daunting. Plone as a CMS provides us with workflow. This means a writer can submit, and editor can edit (push back for change acceptance, forward for publish), and a publisher can publish. We can divide those roles amongst people who may have different roles in different documents. All is managed through a personal queue via the Web app. Also, by being in the Python way of things, we can write some tools to glue stuff together. I'll address this below under your concerns about this three-pronged approach, and will show how we mitigate or remove the multi-tool concerns. > 3. Emacs and DocBook XML - for greater flexibility > > We can use Emacs and DocBook XML to publish our efforts in any desired > format: web pages, PDFs, Postscript, etc. The advantage of this is the > "write once, use often" approach, which is a primary tenet of modular > programming and the basis of FLOSS. These documents are also the base > for the many translations which are produced by our Translation team > members. > > ADVANTAGE: Modular efficiencies, "reuse of code", standard "code" base It is also usable as a transition state that content can automatically move through. I'll note that while people are tackling the real challenges of writing a book 100% in a Wiki, I remain quite skeptical. The longest book I've written is the Red Hat SELinux Guide, which is about 100+ pages in PDF, and there is *no way* I could have accomplished the quality and level of detail if I had to edit in a Wiki. Even if we had found a way to not have to edit via a Web browser. The reason is that a Wiki is designed for doing things easily, but in doing so it has to compress out tools that you need for a real book. For example, in DocBook XML, you can put a construct like this anywhere in the content : Customizing Desktop background Desktop wallpaper Customizing Believe me that when you learn to do this with Emacs, it is really, really easy (several keystrokes to put in the skeleton, fill in the terms, move on). The toolchain then makes an index from the book during each build. The index automatically links back (in HTML output) or provides page numbers (in PDF). Something was incorrect? Fix in XML, move the term around, etc., rebuild, and the index is fixed to match. So, there are literally hundreds of advantages of using a full-featured book writing tool. And yes, that complexity comes with the price of a steeper learning curve. > There are definite disadvantages to this three-pronged approach. It > would be great if we could do everything with one tool - maybe someday > soon we will. For now, we can enjoy the advantages this approach > offers. Now here are the disadvantages, which I would rather call > challenges. With a Python programmer and a few weeks of time, below is what we intend to accomplish. This could be done at anytime, but we have to wait for Plone to be updated to do a full roll-out. 1. Write and edit in the Wiki. The Wiki either works directly on XML in CVS or on regular Wiki pages. Some pages stay where they are forever (project pages, e.g. wiki/SELinux, wiki/Packaging), and some are pre-drafts (Docs/Drafts, Docs/Beats). 2. When ready, select "Publish in CMS as draft" from the 'More Actions:' dropdown menu on the right. - If the content is XML in CVS already, the "Publish..." triggers off a build of the document into XHTML and the publication into Plone under the user's ID as a contribution at the beginning of the workflow. - If the content is Wiki, it is first converted to XML, wrapped in the toolchain, then built to XHTML and published into Plone at the beginning of the workflow 3. The assigned editor for the document receives notice of a (new) draft. They read and either send back to the writer with specific items to fix, or push on to publish. 4. When published in Plone, it is put in the proper taxonomy location and has all the slick look we can give it. The same holds true for translation. We can add a "Submit for translation" that follows a similar path. However, this button might be in the Plone workflow, and a publishing editor uses it after content is ready. > THE CHALLENGES > > 1. Complexity. > > Three tools are harder to use than one tool. Most of us know one tool > really well, some of us know two tools pretty well, and a few know all > the tools (of whom we stand in awe). For instance, I've got a pretty > good handle on MoinMoin, a desire to learn Plone, and a basic grasp of > Emacs and DocBook XML. There is also the issue of conversion from one > format to the other. > > This is why the team approach (the bazaar) is so powerful. As a > community, we are stronger than as individuals. We can pool our talent > and produce a whole greater than the sum of its parts. We also have > powerful FLOSS tools. > > SOLUTION: Teamwork, teamwork, teamwork and tools, tools, tools Ideally, a writer can choose on editor (Emacs, Vi, Gedit, Jedit, OO.org, Wiki, etc.) and a method to commit work (CVS client or via Wiki), and they are done. But we have work ahead of us to get there. > 2. Coordination of Effort. > > This is always a challenge. Many times "we have a failure to > communicate". The good news is we have great tools at our disposal: > wikis, email, IRC channels, etc. People are making good money > promoting "collaboration". We have the tools we need already at hand - > we just have to make use of them. New tools are emerging like VoIP. > > SOLUTION: Use our great FLOSS communication tools creatively Our major communication challenges is with the Translation project, and secondary with 80% of the Fedora developers. Within the FDP, we have traditionally done pretty well. Translation communication will improve when we can get CVS moved and their tools included into fedoraproject.org. Developer communication is just something we work on continuously. > 4. Dedication. > > This is a personal decision - how to invest your limited time and > resources. Again, the solution is to prioritize your life. How > important are the goals and objectives of the Fedora Project to you > personally. How has the recent news affected you? Has it made you glad > or mad, discouraged or more determined? > > SOLUTION: Up to you. There are other benefits and we should be mindful of ways to reward people in the FDP (writers/editors/translators or w/e/t). * Highlight contributors (name as author, translator) * Help people to grow their skills and related interests - I wrote about how this can positively affect career goals here: http://iquaid.livejournal.com/13095.html * Have Fedora Project bring w/e/t in for FUDCon events * Connect Fedora Ambassadors with w/e/t to present at FLOSS events * Get some of our content published as a real book * Thank you gifts * Other tangible items * ??? > FUTURE TOPICS > > 1, Upstream contribution to other documentation projects (for example, GNOME). > 2. Improvements to document conversion tools. > 3. Better communication (VoIP, online presence tools [MugShot?]) 4. Cross-stream collaboration, where we work with other documentation teams from other projects (distros, etc.) to create or contribute to documentation commons. For example, fixing up man/info pages. > To quote Dennis Miller, "This is my opinion - I could be wrong" :-) And he so often is. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Nov 18 22:17:43 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 17:17:43 -0500 Subject: Jargon Buster wikification In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611181200y1e811a50h8582d86fbc107282@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0611180904t13b9c0a1v1ba97368640af93c@mail.gmail.com> <1163872203.15617.88.camel@erato.phig.org> <1163874905.5431.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611181200y1e811a50h8582d86fbc107282@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1163888263.5431.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> I'm taking this discussion to the fedora-docs-list so that others can offer their input. We should try and keep these discussions there so the community can get informed and involved. On Sat, 2006-11-18 at 23:00 +0300, John Babich wrote: > I agree that needless movement between DocBook XML and the wiki can be > a waste of time, and almost always should be avoided. Editing in the > wiki can be a crutch and prevent people like me from learning Emacs in > greater depth, which is one of my reasons for wanting to be involved > in the project in the first place. I like the idea of more contributions to the glossary. It's a worthy goal. I just wish that, at the same time as we get more contributions, we were also encouraging people to submit the changes in a more automatically trackable way. That way is Bugzilla. (I'm reminded that random people can't contribute to our wiki -- they have to go through a series of steps (you've done them, of course) including the CLA.) Wiki notifications are a fine way for anyone currently using the wiki to pick up "what needs to be done." But what about John Newuser, who just joined? He starts at square one, and even if he has CVS and DocBook skills, and is well-informed enough to turn on all his notifications immediately, he will have no idea what entries need to be moved. He can't get backdated notifications. Bugzilla is a queue of problems that any motivated contributor can consult for a "to-do" list. John Newuser can look at the list, pick a problem, and get down to business. Bug and task tracking tools are the ideal way to capture this work, and produce other useful information like how long it's taking to get them closed or handled. The wiki satisfies none of those needs, unfortunately. Again, I'm not blasting use of the wiki -- but it's very clear to me that it's not a sustainable and valuable tool in the way that SCM and Bugzilla clearly are. It's merely good for collecting raw material quickly. [...snip...] > So I agree that DocBook XML is the almost always best way to go. > Karsten, you shared some great ideas on improving the online editing > through some Python programming to make more of a workflow among the > writers / editors / translators. This can then be captured as valid > DocBook XML through an easy-to-use feature. Again, there's a reason everyone uses DocBook! :-) > However, the Glossary may be the exception to the "Always write in > Docbook XML" rule. Of all the documents, the [Fedora] Glossary page > can be very useful if used on the wiki in its full form. That's one > reason I suggested it. However, it can't be useful from that location for packaging or alternate publishing methods such as HTML, PDF, and/or RPM packaging. > I see it as a place where we, the Docs Team, as well as all the other > Wiki users, can add technical terms as needed to make online entries > more accessible to our entire range of readers. For instance, I > didn't have a clue what SCIM is - until I saw it in the glossary. Again, a good Bugzilla template would also work, and users would only need to fill in the name of the term. A writer and/or editor could write the definition from scratch if the contributor couldn't, or didn't want to. > If we keep a copy of the glossary on the wiki, which can grow > organically as people add new terms, then I believe it becomes a more > useful tool. When it reaches a certain level of maturity, then a > snapshot can be captured of the wiki glossary and converted to a more > permanent form. (That's where the "convert to DocBook XML" button > would come in handy.) Even then, it will keep evolving on the wiki. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Glossary seems pretty modular by > nature and lends itself to "chunky" updates. Does that make it easier > or harder to convert? I was hoping "easier," at first, but the more I think about it, the more I think you're making my job (as editor) very difficult. The wiki can't capture cross references well, for example. Every time we snapshot the page for a DocBook conversion, we will have to reconvert all those cross references, of which a good glossary will be chock full. There are probably other high-visibility tags in there that are going to be a real PITA to convert. > The Glossary can also serve as a convenient place to refer people from > other documents such as tutorials. For example, "See SCIM in the > Glossary for more detail". Yes, but that's no different than an online HTML publication. :-) Again, I think there are good arguments on both sides, and I am happy to simply try and keep up with the wiki changes at this point, integrating them into the canonical CVS copy. I think the next 18 months will see a big change if enough people start getting involved[1] in learning about the CMS and how to make it do what Fedora needs for documentation efforts. = = = [1] To that end, I installed Zope and Plone and have been running some tutorials to start getting my brain wrapped around how this stuff works. I would recommend others do likewise; the installation and running the tutorial are quite simple, and I'm happy to write a short checklist of how to accomplish these steps if anyone needs it. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sun Nov 19 17:18:21 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 09:18:21 -0800 Subject: Jargon Buster wikification In-Reply-To: <1163888263.5431.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <9d2c731f0611180904t13b9c0a1v1ba97368640af93c@mail.gmail.com> <1163872203.15617.88.camel@erato.phig.org> <1163874905.5431.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611181200y1e811a50h8582d86fbc107282@mail.gmail.com> <1163888263.5431.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1163956701.15617.114.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2006-11-18 at 17:17 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I like the idea of more contributions to the glossary. It's a worthy > goal. I just wish that, at the same time as we get more contributions, > we were also encouraging people to submit the changes in a more > automatically trackable way. That way is Bugzilla. (I'm reminded that > random people can't contribute to our wiki -- they have to go through a > series of steps (you've done them, of course) including the CLA.) > > Wiki notifications are a fine way for anyone currently using the wiki to > pick up "what needs to be done." But what about John Newuser, who just > joined? He starts at square one, and even if he has CVS and DocBook > skills, and is well-informed enough to turn on all his notifications > immediately, he will have no idea what entries need to be moved. He > can't get backdated notifications. > > Bugzilla is a queue of problems that any motivated contributor can > consult for a "to-do" list. John Newuser can look at the list, pick a > problem, and get down to business. Bug and task tracking tools are the > ideal way to capture this work, and produce other useful information > like how long it's taking to get them closed or handled. The wiki > satisfies none of those needs, unfortunately. > > Again, I'm not blasting use of the wiki -- but it's very clear to me > that it's not a sustainable and valuable tool in the way that SCM and > Bugzilla clearly are. It's merely good for collecting raw material > quickly. I've been watching release notes in particular be produced for the last three+ years, internally for RHEL, then externally in Fedora. To be honest, bugzilla was always a bit of a barrier that even seasoned developers wouldn't overcome unless the error was egregious or the new content valuable. I'd see poor Ed begging for input time after time, and only a dozen developers actually put anything in the bug report. This is in stark contrast to what we've experienced with the Wiki. At least two to three times the number of developers have helped with content and reviews, and it's easier for people to dig their hands in and get stuff done. What I'm thinking is that bugzilla can work for all levels, but there is a granularity level below which input decreases. For example, more reports are filed for technical errors, while translation and grammar/spelling errors get few bug reports. Also, there are other ways to leave a trail in a Wiki that helps tell other authors what needs to be done. Comment blocks for example. Perhaps there is a level we can identify where some things belong in bugzilla and some stay in the Wiki. For example: i. Master bug tracker has a number of task bugs it depends on ii. Task bugs specify e.g. "Finish kernel section of relnotes for FC7" - Task bugs can have any number of notes that show status or have discussions on various parts - Task bugs can be trackers for other related bugs, such as requesting a review of a piece of content from a kernel developer; open a bug for the review, it is closed when the review is done. iii. When writing in the Wiki, a page author *must* keep a status checklist of "Task to be completed" within the Wiki page. It could be in a comment block at the beginning/end, or a special section that is appended to the end and only erased when all is completed - This gives an ongoing status of that page - Anyone who comes in to help instantly knows what needs to be done iv. We specify what deserves a stand-alone bug report (use a template for it) and what should be added by someone to the in-file status checklist. Questions: a. How much of this should really be Plone workflow? b. This is a fair level of process, can we enforce it? Can we teach it? c. Does this address the appearance of bugzilla as a barrier to getting work done? d. What other items are now in bugzilla that we can use for this? - Notice the new Flags: 'requires_release_note' ? e. How about the new CVS pre commit hooks that grab what BZ is fixed, etc.? Bottom line is this: if the only way to get a change in e.g. Fedora Glossary is to file a bug report, we will receive 1/10th to 1/100th the number of fixes and entries than if we put it in the Wiki for editing. We have to balance the challenges of Wiki -> XML with the increased contributions. Perhaps for some things, we should just have the Wiki expose the raw XML, which it can right now (AIUI). Sure, it forces people to make changes in actual XML, but they do it with the perceived ease of a Wiki edit. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From draciron at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 18:45:38 2006 From: draciron at gmail.com (Dan Smith) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:45:38 -0600 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <1163864214.15617.21.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1163864214.15617.21.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: >[snip lots of good quals] Thank you. I can see we are going to introduce you to some editing-for-brevity. ;-D LOL.. Must admit it's a weak point of mine. > I am a musician, and can also probably help with sound related stuff. > > Security related stuff. Database related work. Server related > > configuration. > > We've been doing most collaborative writing via the Wiki. FWIW, XML in > CVS is actually easier to collaborate on, but you just can't convince > people of that when they are looking at a Wiki with an [Edit] button. > So, I accept that. :) Do I have rights to use the edit button yet? Is that the best place to submit to first? Which CVS should I use? Any good tools for exporting to XML? I can export to HTML easily enough. Never had a need to export a document to XML before. >From your intro, I can guess you might enjoy working on the 'Fedora > Administration Guide', which is targeted at syadmins: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AdministrationGuide Took a look and have already started on two topics. Almost done with a first draft actually on both. One was easy, the file system heirachy. I took the approach with that of writing for novice and mid-level users. Advanced users are going to already know the hiearchy or not going to really care or both :) I did delve into detail about areas that users are most likely to visit. Would it be at all usefull to go into binaries that might be located in those structures or would a high level desc and a reason why a user would be interested in entering/using/what is normally contained in those dirs? Not sure if it's approrpriate but I stepped away from the official line and described the dirs in terms of real life usage rather than the theoretical but sometimes inaccurate purpose of certain dirs. /usr/local for example. That is really the dumping grounds for apps. Half the world installs there not the very specific apps which are supposed to install there. How many games do you see installed in var/games? LOL. I have one. All the rest install to places like /usr/local and /usr/share. My aim is for practical use. The other I am writing with all levels in mind. That is on storage and partitions. Questions. How in depth should I go with LVM? Right now I've stayed at a high level. Why you'd want to use LVM and what NOT to use LVM for. I also speak heavily of of LVM in common partitioning schemes. What about uncommonly used file systems. Any point in going into any depth with those? Non-standard Fedora software, for example NTFS utilities. Should I just link or should I spend some time on them? References. If I want to refer a user to more detailed information on a topic should I just link external, link to a stub article in the wiki or not link at all? An example, in the file system heiarchy I did find a page that did a very good job of describing the traditional uses of the file systems. Reminds me. Never did find out what the /sys dir is supposed to do. It's there. No references to it in first ten pages from google. I've never used it myself. Just know it's there. Have zero files in my FC6 and FC5 installs. So no clue there. I found a reference for what the /srv dir does the only other one I didn't know well. So if anybody knows what the /sys dir is used for please let me know. Anyway my question is should I link them there and should I ask permission of the maintainer to link to them? Any good templates to use? Currently all my stuff is in text. OTOH, there are a few documents that are programming oriented, and which > we have no one with expertise to work on them. For example, this needs > *serious* reworking (about four releases out of date): http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/developers-guide/ > > (It should be called 'Developer Guide' instead of 'Developer's Guide'.) :) I'll take a look but I dropped C as a programming language about the time Win95 came out. I still muddle through an occasional Python or Perl script. Most of what I do nowdays is PHP, Gambas, CLIPs and stuff like that. Except for occasionally cussing at an occasional broken make file I don't mess with C/C++ any more. Nothing more frustrating than finding a wicked app that does exactly what you need and it's using hard coded references to obsolete lib versions or doesn't recognize the rpm installed package of the dependancy :( > Oh, never. We don't want to repeat all that stuff that has been written > already; a hyperlink is just so much easier to write. Our focus is on > Fedora, what is in Fedora, and what can be done with Fedora. This is > true whether the audience is newbies or deep-mode hackers. Coolness. > > *schnore, zzzzzzz, snup* Huh, what? Oh, yeah, thanks, good to meet you, > too. Come visit us on #fedora-docs on irc.freenode.net for questions or > related-to-anything chat. LOL... Drac Slaps Karsten awake. Coolness. Will deffinitely pull that up today. Dived right into writing those two peieces. Just finally had to surface and check mail. That and get my Wesnoth fix :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) mQGiBEVfRxMRBADdFrbSWN48kGrzLGyuewXPfgBWpYUshK4ReceLXpD+vkjfBo9+ edhD8WVhMtK2AZIv4z1HLWRjJ+2eUWISCd8EOraiRJTqDqfDDinw5YRSzoNaWtH/ 6H1e1kfd8qpSJo7R9v+IgRcwkbltItezThDXy8n3/oI2BCyr5sET3jqYTwCgiGCv YRodCmKE2PUB4/ZKhROJIRMD/jGHdiEucitNSHA0gzZBvDxtz4eR7kBuH3VplOHW Ds5SMcWgPsMDf9RkTgk1PxlsUw/Xw+oIny6TABhMUaXcbIf/nSkaRwGGoIHinlqB vdYKhMPUkbK1994tgtvUHf/NeAzJNvVm9XPC9ChV5g+rFLJUDBCuZkMXN/sPc8kG 32GBA/9TfBSMSzvnGQBdVSK/EmFmOeJOKz3OprRqIXkZskf6TG8XmuY+K8fhAk8m rvxmpKvkp4pnj0SFEl+tWMhaYkVbiUaQ+jcUCmJNa/834UQLEFqj5yrze4N25nlm vGIhJT5Ih+PxE9X5nm+VGg3v5m9EXBT8/KAAwf3l2UYv/twOEbQzRHJhY2lyb24g U21pdGggKG5vbG8gY29udGVuZGUpIDxkcmFjaXJvbkB5YWhvby5jb20+iGAEExEC ACAFAkVfRxMCGwMGCwkIBwMCBBUCCAMEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRCWjvq+59GzeJae AJsFwd03dp7ErbvytEPVqzP/ii6KUACfVvldwHFfUiCZ+kh+A9xK17dwQZy5Ag0E RV9HHxAIAIuVBPimStQnTi8aa+24S3O/mcJGM0bG/uKpj9WjwbZv5VKsdra3/Ij0 F9RMbTL/y865S75LEVzIPXMxm/t2Onqtt1tDCnbEYzgZLsHKkL2mJvIIwViXyCgj 1aZRqj4oAhupCIi4Dhr9fNdlZfxPZUW0/VCxsDSGBEoD+aXZk4CBdIzUqD3kVuIO Z2IAWgAbLG4ci9xypwzuOPqcZ6kaMviYTNzk/7MwbomrQhiCwljX/iZD2fK+62d8 NH5qLQ+E4K2SFWG4P4qt4Rff4Q1JT7jz+BTMT98oSfK0FGpEKOhkTMp40Hwd3cVJ IL0Q9iLiTEoHHcJAeQY1wYIieM+FG7cABAsH/1gNj3kNdqYoak2tNqUOdML8YFkB qqj704cLMsfKi78KgngljHZdXHLiSALstkcLJ8TxDBkwvHOpJUqads0HGAgTUXdq Q9QOFY2cydk/3m5xlrYhtaZdno9QVml7TKn/YaxiCGYD/csYc4ch/9NkviCP3H09 mSysHYFGK2fz4FD1CGK4QXBOafgAkPk+hiE8itmuzJWzcs8oDaVN2hC+GqMIgQzs qsuaGXxBdKLNlQ5yH+SCioDy6fZCMn3v7VfQECpYi4sbcRFplA5NiVTJ6WOfxa/c jH2Rd6BdPzK/4dNdY4PStlGWZGuVYImkOaiDAxPvhCOLvD5NU2UCMK8jrFWISQQY EQIACQUCRV9HHwIbDAAKCRCWjvq+59GzeMheAJ0Sej9k9+c7qelk5Phu9Bzl8KMD /ACfWE9dza11IzjCzGwhLEZqMnlGZdM= =14Kt -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From dimitris at glezos.com Sun Nov 19 19:32:14 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:32:14 +0000 Subject: Jargon Buster wikification In-Reply-To: <1163956701.15617.114.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <9d2c731f0611180904t13b9c0a1v1ba97368640af93c@mail.gmail.com> <1163872203.15617.88.camel@erato.phig.org> <1163874905.5431.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611181200y1e811a50h8582d86fbc107282@mail.gmail.com> <1163888263.5431.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1163956701.15617.114.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4560B13E.4070002@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > On Sat, 2006-11-18 at 17:17 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> I like the idea of more contributions to the glossary. It's a worthy >> goal. I just wish that, at the same time as we get more contributions, >> we were also encouraging people to submit the changes in a more >> automatically trackable way. That way is Bugzilla. (I'm reminded that >> random people can't contribute to our wiki -- they have to go through a >> series of steps (you've done them, of course) including the CLA.) >> >> Wiki notifications are a fine way for anyone currently using the wiki to >> pick up "what needs to be done." But what about John Newuser, who just >> joined? He starts at square one, and even if he has CVS and DocBook >> skills, and is well-informed enough to turn on all his notifications >> immediately, he will have no idea what entries need to be moved. He >> can't get backdated notifications. >> >> Bugzilla is a queue of problems that any motivated contributor can >> consult for a "to-do" list. John Newuser can look at the list, pick a >> problem, and get down to business. Bug and task tracking tools are the >> ideal way to capture this work, and produce other useful information >> like how long it's taking to get them closed or handled. The wiki >> satisfies none of those needs, unfortunately. >> >> Again, I'm not blasting use of the wiki -- but it's very clear to me >> that it's not a sustainable and valuable tool in the way that SCM and >> Bugzilla clearly are. It's merely good for collecting raw material >> quickly. > > I've been watching release notes in particular be produced for the last > three+ years, internally for RHEL, then externally in Fedora. To be > honest, bugzilla was always a bit of a barrier that even seasoned > developers wouldn't overcome unless the error was egregious or the new > content valuable. I'd see poor Ed begging for input time after time, > and only a dozen developers actually put anything in the bug report. > > This is in stark contrast to what we've experienced with the Wiki. At > least two to three times the number of developers have helped with > content and reviews, and it's easier for people to dig their hands in > and get stuff done. > > What I'm thinking is that bugzilla can work for all levels, but there is > a granularity level below which input decreases. For example, more > reports are filed for technical errors, while translation and > grammar/spelling errors get few bug reports. Templates try to fix this, but they fail as you already point out. Maybe we could have (through Plone) some simple webpage front-ends for bug reports, which use XML-RPC to communicate with bugzilla? For example, one webpage titled "Leave a comment" could open special ready-made bug reports for comments on the Docs -- even anonymously (using a special bugzilla user). Of course this will apply only bug reports on a spacial component (eg "comment-rfe"). Of course this might overwhelm us with bug reports that need closing and stuff. But there are 100 times more "I just want to leave a comment guys" than "I am willing/able to create a Fedora account or complete a template bugzilla report". > [...] > Bottom line is this: if the only way to get a change in e.g. Fedora > Glossary is to file a bug report, we will receive 1/10th to 1/100th the > number of fixes and entries than if we put it in the Wiki for editing. > We have to balance the challenges of Wiki -> XML with the increased > contributions. +1. Or jump quickly to a new technology, like the ticketing the Infrastructure folks did. Which isn't likely to happen because of maintenance reasons. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From kwade at redhat.com Sun Nov 19 19:46:20 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 11:46:20 -0800 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <1163864214.15617.21.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1163965580.15617.132.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2006-11-19 at 12:45 -0600, Dan Smith wrote: > > LOL.. Must admit it's a weak point of mine. Mine to. :) > Do I have rights to use the edit button yet? Is that the best place to > submit to first? > Which CVS should I use? > Any good tools for exporting to XML? I can export to HTML easily > enough. Never had a need to export a document to XML before. I just added some stuff about the Wiki and refreshed this page in general: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters If you have any questions not answered through that page, let's bring them here, answer them, and then get it all updated. :) > > >From your intro, I can guess you might enjoy working on the > 'Fedora > Administration Guide', which is targeted at syadmins: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AdministrationGuide > > Took a look and have already started on two topics. Another guide to look at for ideas for source material ... maybe as an additional reference? What could we do if we could pull in some of this content directly? http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/admin-guide/ > Almost done with a first draft actually on both. One was easy, the > file system heirachy. I took the approach with that of writing for > novice and mid-level users. Advanced users are going to already know > the hiearchy or not going to really care or both :) I did delve into > detail about areas that users are most likely to visit. Would it be at > all usefull to go into binaries that might be located in those > structures or would a high level desc and a reason why a user would be > interested in entering/using/what is normally contained in those dirs? > Not sure if it's approrpriate but I stepped away from the official > line and described the dirs in terms of real life usage rather than > the theoretical but sometimes inaccurate purpose of certain > dirs. /usr/local for example. That is really the dumping grounds for > apps. Half the world installs there not the very specific apps which > are supposed to install there. How many games do you see installed in > var/games? LOL. I have one. All the rest install to places > like /usr/local and /usr/share. My aim is for practical use. I think it's worth noting the ideal and actual usage, yes. We probably don't need to specify all of what is in a directly, that's what 'ls' is for. But we can give people some clever steps to learn more, e.g.: "To find out what a binary 'foo' is, there are several methods of research: man foo or info foo show manual and info pages for 'foo'. Since software in Fedora all comes in a package, looking to see where 'foo' came from can be useful: which foo /usr/bin/foo rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/bin/foo foo-2.7-1.3.fc6 Packages also have some useful information, especially where the binary is a non-obvious component in a larger package: rpm -qi foo To find out what other packages need that package: rpm -q --whatrequires foo ..." Anyway, that kind of thing. Or more advanced, or stepping to more advanced. > The other I am writing with all levels in mind. That is on storage and > partitions. > > Questions. > How in depth should I go with LVM? Right now I've stayed at a high > level. Why you'd want to use LVM and what NOT to use LVM for. I also > speak heavily of of LVM in common partitioning schemes. > What about uncommonly used file systems. Any point in going into any > depth with those? > Non-standard Fedora software, for example NTFS utilities. Should I > just link or should I spend some time on them? Are we including NTFS now? I'd first stick with what the community supports. But we can certainly provide some nice, comprehensive, quality content on using parts of Fedora that many people aren't aware of or haven't been covered because they were not in the shipped kernel before. > References. If I want to refer a user to more detailed information on > a topic should I just link external, link to a stub article in the > wiki or not link at all? An example, in the file system heiarchy I > did find a page that did a very good job of describing the traditional > uses of the file systems. Reminds me. Never did find out what > the /sys dir is supposed to do. It's there. No references to it in > first ten pages from google. I've never used it myself. Just know it's > there. Have zero files in my FC6 and FC5 installs. So no clue there. I > found a reference for what the /srv dir does the only other one I > didn't know well. So if anybody knows what the /sys dir is used for > please let me know. Anyway my question is should I link them there > and should I ask permission of the maintainer to link to them? Just link out. If there is a Fedora project that needs a Wiki page on a subject, you could create a stub and email a maintainer there with a suggestion or even actual content. Or just create it, depends on what the page is and what is needed. > Any good templates to use? Currently all my stuff is in text. We're drafting this one in the Wiki. Read through the New Writers page for links to how to write in the Wiki, markup usage guidelines, etc. Sounds as if you are happy with this document for now, let's keep you here for now until something else sparks your interest directly. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Nov 19 20:28:27 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 01:58:27 +0530 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <1163965580.15617.132.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1163864214.15617.21.camel@erato.phig.org> <1163965580.15617.132.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4560BE6B.6070309@fedoraproject.org> Karsten Wade wrote: > I think it's worth noting the ideal and actual usage, yes. We probably > don't need to specify all of what is in a directly, that's what 'ls' is > for. But we can give people some clever steps to learn more, e.g.: > > "To find out what a binary 'foo' is, there are several methods of > research: > > man foo > > or > > info foo > > show manual and info pages for 'foo'. > > Since software in Fedora all comes in a package, looking to see where > 'foo' came from can be useful: > > which foo > /usr/bin/foo > rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/bin/foo > foo-2.7-1.3.fc6 > > Packages also have some useful information, especially where the binary > is a non-obvious component in a larger package: > > rpm -qi foo > > To find out what other packages need that package: > > rpm -q --whatrequires foo > I already documented some of this in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate. > Are we including NTFS now? Yes, we are. The userspace ntfs-3g is now in Fedora Extras. Rahul From dimitris at glezos.com Mon Nov 20 17:52:16 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:52:16 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Some activity on Fedora Hosted Projects] Message-ID: <4561EB50.1080903@glezos.com> Do you guys think that the Docs Project would be benefited if it was hosted on Trac? -d -------- ?????? ?????? -------- Subject: Some activity on Fedora Hosted Projects Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 12:50:18 -0500 From: Jesse Keating To: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com One of the things identified at the summit was that we wanted to provide some soft of hosting for projects. This wouldn't necessarily be Fedora specific projects, but being able to use your Fedora accounts to get something going quickly, with source control etc. would be highly valuable. Since I needed some project space for pungi, I started looking at what was around, and gave Trac (http://trac.edgewall.org/) a serious look. It's picked up the ability to use an hg repository, which is pretty important to me, and there is the beginnings of git support, perhaps enough to make use of it now. Add to that the ability to tie into our existing accounts system for authenticated actions, and the ability for a project admin to make changes to the project all through the web makes trac a pretty compelling choice for software to manage our hosted projects. There seems to be a fairly decent community around Trac and solid community contribution to the project itself so there seems to be some sustainability there. For a proof of concept, I setup a xen guest with FC6, tossed trac on there in a multiproject configuration and added pungi as one of the projects. I'm going to approach some of the other psuedo hosted projects we've got going on to see if they would be interested in playing in the proof of concept land. I also created a wiki page to cover this: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/ProjectHosting I'd like some input from the board if this is the right direction envisioned for project hosting, and if any more effort (now or later) should be spent in this direction. For me, I got project space for pungi. I still have a few hoops to jump through before it's really useful (moving the actual hg repo of pungi to a new location, changing documentation, etc..) but its a good start. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From andrew0105 at so-net.net.tw Mon Nov 20 17:57:56 2006 From: andrew0105 at so-net.net.tw (AndrewLin) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:57:56 +0800 Subject: Self-Introduction : AndrewLin Message-ID: <1164045476.3358.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello, everybody: My name is AndrewLin, and I am new to Fedora. The following is my introduction. Name: AndrewLin Location: Taipei, Taiwan Job: Software engineer Goal: I want to translate documents into Traditional-Chinese language. Skills: programming languages: C/C++, VB, VB.NET, ASP.NET, C#. os: Windows series. db: MS Sql, Oracle, MySql GPG info: Key Id : 0FA0BD5D 2006-11-20 [expires: 2006-12-20] Key fingerprint: 0406 0886 CB06 B325 512C 046C E3FE 6649 0FA0 BD5D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: ?????????? URL: From splinux at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 20 19:33:12 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:33:12 +0100 Subject: Self-Introduction : AndrewLin In-Reply-To: <1164045476.3358.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1164045476.3358.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Welcome on board ;-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aalam at redhat.com Tue Nov 21 03:52:04 2006 From: aalam at redhat.com (A S Alam) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:22:04 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: Question about copyright and translations] Message-ID: <456277E4.9060804@redhat.com> Hi I m CCing your message to Documentation Project, where you can get more infomation regarding copyright Translation thanks -- A S Alam timezone: GMT+5:30 join us at #fedora-l10n (freenode) "Either find a way or make one" -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: luisfe Subject: Question about copyright and translations Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:49:28 +0100 Size: 3885 URL: From linux at glossolalie.org Tue Nov 21 20:10:07 2006 From: linux at glossolalie.org (Thierry Sayegh De Bellis) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:10:07 +0000 Subject: Self-introduction: Thierry Sayegh De Bellis Message-ID: <45635D1F.2060500@glossolalie.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi everyone, Since my name is a bit of a mouthful I usually just go by Thierry :-) I currently live in Cambridge, UK and work for Motorola as a result of a recent acquisition of my employer by said Motorola mammoth. I have been traditionally responsible for anything and everything pertaining to Linux in the business where we mainly use RHEL. Typical exposure would be the corporate web server, some mysql/postgres, ftp, proxy, nfs/nis or a CPU farm running a mixture of x86 and x86_64 arch with too much RAM. I also help with our SCM solution (perforce) and our document management suite. Due to my friendliness with foreign languages and the fact that I have traveled a bit (lived in France (home), Ireland, Italy (the missus' home) and now UK) and speak 3 languages on a daily basis, I have been known to work as a French translator (actually running the French team) being responsible for the localization of tech manuals, proof-reading, appropriate Q&A and DTP quality control as well as tech & linguistic accuracy. I fell into IT acting as the part-time sysadmin and within a year ended up being the full-time IT guy, a 'jack of all trades' role where i was dabbing at Netware, Windows and Linux. My then boss paid for my training and so did my following employers; or I did it myself. I own a few MCP and am RHCE on RHEL ES 4. This background probably makes me a kind of engineer who knows how to spell most of the time and has some heterogeneous systems integration mileage. My first Linux install was from a few floppies back in '93 (slack?) to a continuous stream of various Redhat flavors, the fedora beta and now rebuilding my home network using FC6. RAID, rsync and all that jazz... On my spare time I try to learn python (real newbie) when not enjoying some quality time with my best half. I am willing to give a hand and am open to ideas as to where I can be useful. cheers Thierry PGP stuff: pub 1024D/56ED7D5A 2006-11-21 Thierry Sayegh De Bellis Key fingerprint = 9976 11FE D9C6 8C67 6242 7BB1 6466 3F1D 56ED 7D5A sub 2048g/3DCF5AFB 2006-11-21 Key available on the MIT keyserver and at http://www.glossolalie.com/linux.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFY10fZGY/HVbtfVoRAn85AKCzFQUTsglckFe+PiBrUJwFinoCoQCfaEn5 i9eFO8i0AvHZ0TE9YriL7WQ= =DRBf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kwade at redhat.com Tue Nov 21 20:57:17 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:57:17 -0800 Subject: Self-Introduction : AndrewLin In-Reply-To: <1164045476.3358.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1164045476.3358.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1164142637.15617.254.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-11-21 at 01:57 +0800, AndrewLin wrote: > Hello, everybody: Hello, welcome. > My name is AndrewLin, and I am new to Fedora. > The following is my introduction. > > Name: AndrewLin > Location: Taipei, Taiwan > Job: Software engineer > Goal: I want to translate documents into Traditional-Chinese language. You have probably seen this: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/translation-quick-start-guide/ Translations are occurring in the Fedora Documentation CVS and the Fedora Translation CVS. We are working on merging these between now and F*7. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Nov 22 19:33:11 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:33:11 -0800 Subject: minutes/results FDSCo meeting 21-Nov-2006 Message-ID: <1164223991.2584.35.camel@erato.phig.org> * Checked stats of various Web pages Top five popular .*Docs.* pages on fedoraproject.org are: 1. Docs 2. DocsProject 3. Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide/Communication 4. Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide/Tour 5. Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide/ * Worked on elections stuff Swiped some stuff from FESCo to start with: ** DRAFT ** http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Policy/FDSCoElections ** DRAFT ** * FDP needs to somehow formally engage with FI about i18n.redhat.com move ## Karsten action * Paul is looking into Plone + Zope, learning about how to wrangle it, with assistance from our friends at Fedora Unity Over the course of the hours, attendees included: Bob Jensen Paul Frields Karsten Wade Mike McGrath (guest) Jesse Keating (guest) DaMaestro (guest) Jeff Spaleta (guest) -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rosh.ravi at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 21:30:27 2006 From: rosh.ravi at gmail.com (Rosh Ravindran) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 03:00:27 +0530 Subject: Self-Introduction: Rosh Ravindran Message-ID: <216e00af0611221330u337d945do1079b6b2c32dce64@mail.gmail.com> Full legal name: Rosh Ravindran City, Country: Bangalore, India Profession: Technical Specialist Company: e4e Tech Support, Bangalore My goals in the Fedora Project: I want to create technical manuals/documents on any application or architecture. Historical qualifications: What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past? I am currently managing knowledge base articles for one of a leading Security Company in US. I was a part of the team which created technical training manuals for their latest version of consumer security products this year. What level and type of computer skills do you have? I have good Technical Support skills and basic programming skills in Java and ASP. What other skills do you have that might be applicable? I like drawing, painting and editing images... (in Photoshop, trying to migrate those skills to Gimp.) I also like designing Web pages. I have developed few internal sites at my office and I have a registered Web site. What makes you an excellent match for the project? I am currently using the Core 6 with Beryl and I am loving it. I would love to contribute to the project with the skills that I am possessing. [rosh.ravindran at Scorpions ~]$ gpg --fingerprint CA17D9B4 pub 1024D/CA17D9B4 2006-09-27 [expires: 2008-09-26] Key fingerprint = EADB 8AA9 74E4 D8F2 725C D1C3 E6CF 6C95 CA17 D9B4 uid Rosh Ravindran sub 1024g/6544A826 2006-09-27 [expires: 2008-09-26] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markmc34 at verizon.net Thu Nov 23 01:54:40 2006 From: markmc34 at verizon.net (Markus McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:54:40 -0500 Subject: Seasons Greetings Message-ID: <4564FF60.8080704@verizon.net> I just want to send Thanksgiving greetings to all the American contributers to Fedora Core. I hope you all have safe travels and have some rest from programming and other work. I would LOVE a screenshot from Fedora Core 7 Alpha 1 in the next month or so.... Mark McLaughlin - marknetproductionsentrance.blogspot.com From splinux at fedoraproject.org Thu Nov 23 05:19:12 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 06:19:12 +0100 Subject: Self-Introduction: Rosh Ravindran In-Reply-To: <216e00af0611221330u337d945do1079b6b2c32dce64@mail.gmail.com> References: <216e00af0611221330u337d945do1079b6b2c32dce64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Rosh, welcome to Fedora Docs! ;-) Damien Durand, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 05:41:28 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:41:28 +0300 Subject: Seasons Greetings In-Reply-To: <4564FF60.8080704@verizon.net> References: <4564FF60.8080704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611222141o71f29527m92acf5ec34c3840b@mail.gmail.com> +1 On 11/23/06, Markus McLaughlin wrote: > I just want to send Thanksgiving greetings to all the American > contributers to Fedora Core. > I hope you all have safe travels and have some rest from programming and > other work. > I would LOVE a screenshot from Fedora Core 7 Alpha 1 in the next month > or so.... > > Mark McLaughlin - marknetproductionsentrance.blogspot.com > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From jmbabich at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 05:43:48 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 08:43:48 +0300 Subject: Seasons Greetings In-Reply-To: <4564FF60.8080704@verizon.net> References: <4564FF60.8080704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611222143i150496d6o59d86b80dcad9225@mail.gmail.com> +1 On 11/23/06, Markus McLaughlin wrote: > I just want to send Thanksgiving greetings to all the American > contributers to Fedora Core. > I hope you all have safe travels and have some rest from programming and > other work. > I would LOVE a screenshot from Fedora Core 7 Alpha 1 in the next month > or so.... > > Mark McLaughlin - marknetproductionsentrance.blogspot.com > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From stickster at gmail.com Thu Nov 23 15:56:18 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:56:18 -0500 Subject: Seasons Greetings In-Reply-To: <4564FF60.8080704@verizon.net> References: <4564FF60.8080704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1164297378.7878.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-11-22 at 20:54 -0500, Markus McLaughlin wrote: > I just want to send Thanksgiving greetings to all the American > contributers to Fedora Core. > I hope you all have safe travels and have some rest from programming and > other work. > I would LOVE a screenshot from Fedora Core 7 Alpha 1 in the next month > or so.... Thanks for the well wishes. There's really no such thing as FC7 Alpha 1. If you want to see what Fedora Core 7 development looks like, you should try installing Rawhide on a test box. (It's not recommended for daily or production use, just developers and testers.) You can find the schedule for the test releases of Fedora on the wiki: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Core/Schedule Put a watch on that page, since the schedule hasn't been decided yet. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 15:40:24 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:40:24 -0500 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... Message-ID: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/3-teams-tasks Found from planet.gnome.org -- so we're not the only ones struggling on the barrier-to-entry problem. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 19:09:17 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 22:09:17 +0300 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> On 11/24/06, Paul W. Frields wrote: > http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/3-teams-tasks > > Found from planet.gnome.org -- so we're not the only ones struggling on > the barrier-to-entry problem. > > -- I read all three related entries. I've been doing research on open source projects and the good news is - the first step to a solution is realizing there is a problem. There is some truth to the maxim, "Misery loves company". There's also truth in "United we stand, divided we fall". I think the solution is inherent in the open source development process. ************************************************************************ We need a well-defined FOSS project to create a completely free (livre) toolchain to create, maintain, distribute and publish FOSS documentation. ************************************************************************ This project is bigger than all of us. This is where we need to realize that the entire FOSS community needs to be involved. Every FOSS project needs documentation. It seems every project also has a problem producing it. I propose we spearhead a FOSS community-wide project. This naturally involves upstream and cross-stream participation and cooperation. BTW, if this project already exists, please let me know. I would like to join it. John Babich From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 24 22:43:54 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:43:54 -0500 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1164408234.18400.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 22:09 +0300, John Babich wrote: > I propose we spearhead a FOSS community-wide project. This naturally > involves upstream and cross-stream participation and cooperation. > > BTW, if this project already exists, please let me know. I would like > to join it. I believe if you look in the archives, you'll find a proposal from this year about this very subject. I think it came from someone in Red Hat's India office, although as an "extramural" project (i.e., don't expect funding). :-) I will check my Gmail when I get a chance. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 05:24:19 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 08:24:19 +0300 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: <1164408234.18400.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> <1164408234.18400.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611242124g54bb4777s6b5b161e0f4514fc@mail.gmail.com> On 11/25/06, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 22:09 +0300, John Babich wrote: > I believe if you look in the archives, you'll find a proposal from this > year about this very subject. I think it came from someone in Red Hat's > India office, although as an "extramural" project (i.e., don't expect > funding). :-) I will check my Gmail when I get a chance. Thanks, Paul. Most "great ideas" have already been discovered. I never assumed that there would be funding available. What I propose is making this a formal project, perhaps using Sourceforge as a focal point. We can then make it known to the FOSS community at large. I'll check out your lead. If it's a Red Hat employee who's already on the same wavelength, so much the better. John Babich From draciron at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 06:59:34 2006 From: draciron at gmail.com (Dan Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 00:59:34 -0600 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611242124g54bb4777s6b5b161e0f4514fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> <1164408234.18400.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611242124g54bb4777s6b5b161e0f4514fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I've already signed up with the Fedora document project and am deep into the first documents. I use KDE myself so I'll probably not sign up as a Gnome writer except maybe for specific Gnome apps I like or a more general part of the process. What I would like to see is more cooperation between KDE, Gnome and other desktop managers. Linux is about freedom right? Yet distros like Ubuntu don't even bother including KDE in the base install. Gnome under SUSE can be a real pain. What major distro doesn't include not just both but other commonly used desktop managers? I'm seeing clique like behavior. Elitism and snobbery that will turn people away from Linux in droves. The C/C++ snobbery has already hurt Linux badly. I'm sorry but not everybody like C based languages. We should be bending over backwards to accomadate people not drive them away from Linux. My 2 cents. Drac On 11/24/06, John Babich wrote: > > On 11/25/06, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 22:09 +0300, John Babich wrote: > > > I believe if you look in the archives, you'll find a proposal from this > > year about this very subject. I think it came from someone in Red Hat's > > India office, although as an "extramural" project (i.e., don't expect > > funding). :-) I will check my Gmail when I get a chance. > > Thanks, Paul. Most "great ideas" have already been discovered. I > never assumed that there would be funding available. What I propose > is making this a formal project, perhaps using Sourceforge as a focal > point. We can then make it known to the FOSS community at large. > > I'll check out your lead. If it's a Red Hat employee who's already on the > same wavelength, so much the better. > > John Babich > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 09:00:05 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:00:05 +0300 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> <1164408234.18400.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611242124g54bb4777s6b5b161e0f4514fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611250100p163e91c1ha738089bdcfac3e3@mail.gmail.com> On 11/25/06, Dan Smith wrote: > What I would like to see is more cooperation between KDE, Gnome and other > desktop managers. Linux is about freedom right? Yet distros like Ubuntu > don't even bother including KDE in the base install. Gnome under SUSE can be > a real pain. Ubuntu does have Kubuntu, a separate distribution. Anyway, some good news for Fedora KDE users: There is a plan is to merge Fedora Core and Extras in FC7. This eliminates one barrier. There will be no second-class citizens, but there will still be default apps at installation time. I hope that a complete KDE can be installed from the start with the merger of the repositories. I use both KDE and GNOME. Getting a *complete* KDE installation on FC6 is a bit of a pain. What can be installed by default vs choice at install time is being actively discussed. Now's a good time to push for more KDE. - Other Fedora Project members are pushing to integrate KDE more cleanly into Fedora. See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/UnleashKDE. > What major distro doesn't include not just both but other commonly used > desktop managers? Fedora Core and Extras include GNOME, KDE and XFCE (Yes, I even use XFCE on low-end machines). You can add others. It so happens that GNOME is the default windows manager. This, of course, makes GNOME an easier install. > I'm seeing clique like behavior. Elitism and snobbery that will turn people > away from Linux in droves. The C/C++ snobbery has already hurt Linux > badly. I'm sorry but not everybody like C based languages. We should be > bending over backwards to accomadate people not drive them away from Linux. > Clique behavior is always bad for FOSS. One of the goals of the Fedora Docs project is to lower the barrier of entry. We should have a "big tent". One obstacle is lousy or non-existent documentation. We can change that. We can also work more closely with other FOSS projects on a complete FOSS toolchain for FOSS documents. A new point: What are the implications of a choice of either GNOME or KDE at install time, or shortly thereafter? We will need an equivalent Desktop User Guide for KDE like what now exists for GNOME. See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide. This should probably be a separate document for now. I'm willing to get a KDE version started on the Wiki. I can't do it alone. Just be sure to leave the GNOME version intact. Depending on how the default window manager discussions go, this may eventually need to be merged with GNOME into one document. Of course, some default apps are really KDE apps. The user doesn't know it. There is already a degree of integration between GNOME and KDE. Initiatives exist to make the integration tighter. We have to remember the target audience in any case. The current DUG is aimed at users without root access. We don't even discuss updates at this level. We don't mention GNOME or KDE. In any case, in light to recent events, I suspect interest in KDE on Fedora will grow. John Babich From draciron at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 11:42:21 2006 From: draciron at gmail.com (Dan Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 05:42:21 -0600 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611250100p163e91c1ha738089bdcfac3e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> <1164408234.18400.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611242124g54bb4777s6b5b161e0f4514fc@mail.gmail.com> <9d2c731f0611250100p163e91c1ha738089bdcfac3e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: LOL.. Thought I was responding to a Fedora help group I often answer questions on. On 11/25/06, John Babich wrote: > > On 11/25/06, Dan Smith wrote: > > > Ubuntu does have Kubuntu, a separate distribution. Anyway, some good news > for Fedora KDE users: It's an unofficially supported distro. Basically Ubuntu has said if you don't use Gnome for your desktop then good luck. KDE can of course be installed afterwards but post install KDE or Gnome installations tend to be messy and very time consuming. At least the last time I've done it which was 3 or 4 years ago. There is a plan is to merge Fedora Core and Extras in FC7. This > eliminates one barrier. There will be no second-class citizens, but > there will still be default apps at installation time. I hope that a > complete KDE can be installed from the start with the merger of the > repositories. I use both KDE and GNOME. Getting a *complete* KDE > installation on > FC6 is a bit of a pain. What can be installed by default vs choice at > install time is being actively discussed. Now's a good time to push > for more KDE. I hate the default install options of Fedora so much that I ALWAYS choose custom install. Some really excellent software like K3b, Midnight Commander, ncftp, KDE and any KDE apps and the list goes on of stuff left out of the default Fedora install. I also have a preferred partitioning scheme and the default install wants to wipe that out. One of the things I'm covering in the Admin doc is potential partitioning schemes commonly used and the positives and downsides of each. - Other Fedora Project members are pushing to integrate KDE more > cleanly into Fedora. See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/UnleashKDE. Thank you. I plan to visit that frequently. Fedora Core and Extras include GNOME, KDE and XFCE (Yes, I even use > XFCE on low-end machines). You can add others. It so happens that GNOME > is the default windows manager. This, of course, makes GNOME an easier > install. Aye, Fedora as long as you do a custom install will do a nice job of installing KDE. Except for grabbing some extras like MP3 support which Fedora doesn't have the luxory of supporting thanks to RIA, I'm very happy with the KDE install. I click a few extra utils that i like using while I'm adding KDE, then afterwards I hit gnome-yum, sourceforge and freshmeat and I have all my favorite apps. Though I have some feature requests. I tried to make one through bugzilla but the walk through dialog spun Firefox into some sort of endless loop. I went to bed, got up six hours later and it still hadn't finished populating the package list. I'd report it except LOL. I'll try in a few days to skip the wizard and see if it'll give me the normal Bugzilla. One of those requests would be an easier way to save what packages are installed. I'd love nothing more for Fedora to read what I had installed last time, present me a custom install where I could go through and add or subtract software rather than doing it every time by hand. The alternate is just as bad by editing the install files manually and only worth it if you are doing large numbers of installs. For example I just went up to FC6 on this machine from FC3. (Been running FC5 since it came out on one machine, almost that long on my third) Spent a good part of a day with gnome-yum re-installing files, then another few hours downloading tarballs of stuff that wasn't in any repositories. Clique behavior is always bad for FOSS. One of the goals of the Fedora Docs > project is to lower the barrier of entry. We should have a "big tent". Not with Fedora Docs. Folks here are very friendly. I'm talking about the wider Linux community. Think of it in these terms. VB has billions of lines of code out there. One of the things that have literally kept many people using windoze is VB. Believe it or not years after the last and final release there are still thousands of coders hacking more VB code. Gambas and the Mono project offer two different alternitives to VB yet nobody knows about them. Suggest a non-C like language to many Nix people and they get this really sour look on their face. LISP, Smalltalk and dozens of other non-C like languages have excellent support on Linux. Nobody knows about it. Think about this as a TCO proposal to a company. Move to Linux and they save the cost of the OS, buying the latest Microsoft visual studio/ More code will port from VB to Gambas than from VB to .net so they save countless man hours while porting to a more secure, stable OS that doesn't require the frequent hardware upgrades that windoze requires. Most windoze users think of VI and Gnu C when they think of Linux. That's an image we want to change. Fedora by default doesn't install Gambas or most of the non-C languages. Hell the default doesn't even install most compilers period. Even if you never write a line of code dozens of apps will complain if you don't have Perl, Python and others. What do fresh windoze users do when they want to use the equiv of Access for example? I've found a few, haven't had a chance to check them out but out of three I figure one ought to be pretty good. A new Linux user is going to want to know what to use in place of the apps they are used to using. That is not cut and dried in Linux. Many of the lists that do such are poorly maintained or give only really basic options. Might be a good document for us to add. It also might be a really good idea for many of those apps to be in the default install. One obstacle is lousy or non-existent documentation. We can change that. > We can also work more closely with other FOSS projects on a complete > FOSS toolchain for FOSS documents. Aye, hoping to do my part on that. > A new point: > > What are the implications of a choice of either GNOME or KDE at install > time, > or shortly thereafter? To be honest unless disk space is at a premium choosing to install only one of those gives a user half a desktop. Grip, K3b, Gnome-yum and so on. Neither desktop is complete in my opinion. A user can muddle along with apps that are not as good but exist in the given desktop. For the complete Linux experience, at least from a GUI standpoint both should be installed. Between both desktops and the 1,500 +other apps/utils I install I'm still using less than 5 gigs disk space on my / partition which includes every one of the default partitions except /home. I'm like a kid in a candy store every time I visit freshmeat or pull up gnome-yum LOL. For most users 5 gigs is nothing. At least a gig of that 5 on mine is stuff most people wouldn't install. So your talking 3 to 4 gigs of stuff that give a Fedora user so many good tools to work with. Allows users a great amount of choice. If Konquerer isn't doing it for them then they can use MC or Nautalis for example. While using KDE as the window manager. If they are using Gnome apps like K3b are really nice things to have installed default. We will need an equivalent Desktop User Guide for KDE like what now exists > for GNOME. See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide. > This should probably be a separate document for now. I'd be happy to start on that soon as I finish the Admin docs. I'm willing to get a KDE version started on the Wiki. I can't do it > alone. Just be > sure to leave the GNOME version intact. Depending on how the default > window > manager discussions go, this may eventually need to be merged with GNOME > into one document. Of course, some default apps are really KDE apps. The > user doesn't know it. There is already a degree of integration between > GNOME > and KDE. Initiatives exist to make the integration tighter. I don't use Gnome very often. Mostly on machines where KDE isn't there or helping a user who chose Gnome as a desktop manager. So I would use the Gnome guide as an example for the KDE guide but would not modify it directly. If I saw something I wanted to add or suggest I'd contact the author directly. We have to remember the target audience in any case. The current DUG is > aimed at users without root access. We don't even discuss updates at this > level. We don't mention GNOME or KDE. Except for corporate users and untrusted family members most people running Fedora I think will have local root. Unless they are non-technical or not as technical as they think they are :) I prefer to give local root to users. Things like configuring printers, installing software and modifying the environment are pretty essential to most users. They are also things that most users coming from the windoze world are used to being able to do themselves. Found that I spent less time fixing machines where people abused local root powers than doing mundane tasks for people who didn't have local root. Machines got scanned for rootkits and I laid eyeballs on the logs of machines pretty frequently so things went fairly smoothly. So in my opinion %70 or more of Fedora users are going to have local root. Most users not on a machine they own will not have root access to the servers they are connected too. So there is value in covering both situations. In any case, in light to recent events, I suspect interest in KDE on Fedora > will grow. > KDE is a very popular desktop manager. Default desktop on many distros. So for folks coming over from Mandriva , SUSE or who got to learn Linux from playing with Knoppix as an example they are going to want to stay with KDE. Many long time Linux users like myself swear by KDE. In a poll I saw on a LUG the usage between KDE and Gnome was pretty evenly split and about %10 going with really lightweight desktops or the more exotic desktops. No idea if this representive of the Linux community as a whole. I suspect it is. Drac -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Nov 25 18:41:09 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:41:09 -0800 Subject: Self-introduction: Thierry Sayegh De Bellis In-Reply-To: <45635D1F.2060500@glossolalie.org> References: <45635D1F.2060500@glossolalie.org> Message-ID: <1164480069.2584.118.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-11-21 at 20:10 +0000, Thierry Sayegh De Bellis wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi everyone, Hi, Thierry, welcome. Sorry for the email delay, the Thu/Fri holiday in the US is quite a distraction; I personally put in six hours of cooking and cleaning on Wed. :) > Since my name is a bit of a mouthful I usually just go by Thierry :-) > > I currently live in Cambridge, UK and work for Motorola as a result of a > recent acquisition of my employer by said Motorola mammoth. I have been > traditionally responsible for anything and everything pertaining to > Linux in the business where we mainly use RHEL. Typical exposure would > be the corporate web server, some mysql/postgres, ftp, proxy, nfs/nis or > a CPU farm running a mixture of x86 and x86_64 arch with too much RAM. I > also help with our SCM solution (perforce) and our document management > suite. This is excellent. We are getting a number of new contributors who have strong sysadmin experienced, in multiple areas of business/academia. I'd like to take the successful methods used for the release notes, and apply them to this: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AdministrationGuide This means breaking the guide down to concept areas (beats[1]) and having a writer cover one or more. [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats > Due to my friendliness with foreign languages and the fact that I have > traveled a bit (lived in France (home), Ireland, Italy (the missus' > home) and now UK) and speak 3 languages on a daily basis, I have been > known to work as a French translator (actually running the French team) > being responsible for the localization of tech manuals, proof-reading, > appropriate Q&A and DTP quality control as well as tech & linguistic > accuracy. How wide do you like to apply yourself to a project? What I mean is, are you interested in "just writing", or are you interested in lending opinion, expertise, and work on technical areas of this project? For example, we are in the midst of planning and executing on migrating a translation CVS into cvs.fedoraproject.org, including some thousands of accounts and a Web application. To make this happen, we need help on many levels. FWIW, I think the most important thing for a volunteer on a project is to i) do what makes you happy, ii) do what makes you happy, and iii) find out what else makes you happy. So, I'm only asking just in case working on FLOSS trans/docs infrastructure issues makes you happy. :-D [snip other goodness] > I am willing to give a hand and am open to ideas as to where I can be > useful. Did I give you enough to consider here, or do you want more to think about? :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Nov 25 19:00:58 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:00:58 -0800 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1164481258.2584.138.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 22:09 +0300, John Babich wrote: > I read all three related entries. I've been doing research on open > source projects and the good news is - the first step to a solution > is realizing there is a problem. There is some truth to the maxim, > "Misery loves company". Yes, and as you have already imagined, many projects are in this first step, and know it, and aren't sure how to move from there. > There's also truth in "United we stand, divided we fall". I think the > solution is inherent in the open source development process. For my comments inline, I offer some of the reasons why I think it hasn't really been done. I do think it is possible, but I don't think we've found the form for it yet. I have my doubts that it is going to look much like what we cobble together today; that is, the UIs may be familiar, but the back-end magic is going to need to be new. Back-end magic includes technical components and intra-project relationships. So, to be clear, I'm "totally into" this idea, which is Californiaese for, "Yes, let's do it." I'd like to see some input from across this project and mailing list; we have quite a few people who lurk here and have insight. Hey, Debianistas! Ubuntuarians! Suseneros! Solarisas! Slackers! Gentootians! And every other project large and small!?! If there is enough interest here to really get something of this magnitude started, let's knock around all the tough stuff for a few weeks. I'd like to sponsor a teleconference + IRC + gobby + $whiteboard-app mini-summit for all those who are interested in moving this forward. From today, it seems like January would be a good time; give us about five to six weeks of mailing list activity and research before getting together to hammer out a proposal to take to other FLOSS projects. > ************************************************************************ > We need a well-defined FOSS project to create a completely > free (livre) toolchain to create, maintain, distribute and publish > FOSS documentation. > ************************************************************************ This is interesting, the focus/inclusion of toolchain within this. I'll get back to that. > This project is bigger than all of us. This is where we need to > realize that the entire FOSS community needs to be involved. Every > FOSS project needs documentation. It seems every project also has a > problem producing it. For example, a couple of years ago at LWCE San Franciso, I had a great conversation with Greg from the cAos project. It was exactly around this topic, having a common body/pool of documentation that all distros could put into and pull from. After that conversation, I got a nice glass of cold water poured on the idea from a Fedoran at our booth. *cough*Spot*cough* After some reflection, I realized that he was (in the main) correct. > I propose we spearhead a FOSS community-wide project. This naturally > involves upstream and cross-stream participation and cooperation. The cold water treatment reminded me of some key items: 1. There aren't as many commonalities between distros as there are differences 2. Any body that does this work is going to spend a significant amount of time dealing with politics and in-fighting 3. Tools When considering 1, if we want to include the whole range of FLOSS projects (i.e., our entire upstream), that is much huger than just a derived set of common docs across distros. The politics, well, that's just going to require time to settle down. :) In the end, it might be the last one that is the true challenge. People like what they like and don't want to change over to what I like or what you like. If we don't want to make fixing the attitude of all communities a part of this cross-FLOSS documentation project, we have to find a way to extrapolate content, semantics, and meta-information from n+1 content tools. And then figure out how to inject it back in. > BTW, if this project already exists, please let me know. I would like > to join it. There are a lot ways to consider from here, for example: 1. LDP -- The Linux Documentation Project exists already, and it has done the best (only?) job so far at being generic and cross-distro useful. We could work with content that is made generic for LDP as an upstream, then we can take it as downstream users and add our patches that make it Fedora specific. We may want to do that with all content that ranges from "How to use a mouse" to "Customizing the desktop". Think of this as the, "Invest in giving more life to LDP as a common upstream." 2. Upstream. Following the idea from above, we can work to improve the documentation that exists in upstream projects. Everything from man/info through README and HTML files. Massive coordination effort, on the scale of the entire distro (number of packages/projects), just with fewer bits and complexity. 3. Distro only. We could start a new, cross-distro documentation commons. Maybe use an existing umbrella organization to work under, so it can hold single control (joint copyright, etc.), sort of like an FSF for documentation. One issue that comes up immediately is license, which is where the common upstream entity is valuable. It can provide multiple licenses for downstream use, who would have to multi-license (n +1) all content they contributed back up. Lots of complexity, and we need to research the actual value. For example, how much work would this be v. putting human energy into converting all man pages to XML and making a Web interface (Wiki) for editing them. This cross-project would be a lot of effort into interacting components. The "Wiki in front of man pages" would be putting content editing directly in the control of the communities, and then we all just advertise manpagecommons.org/wiki. :) What other ways could we tackle this? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Nov 25 19:05:00 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:05:00 -0800 Subject: KDE inclusion Message-ID: <1164481500.2584.143.camel@erato.phig.org> I went to bed last night thinking, "We need to add Kmail, Konversation, and Konquerer to the DUG," and then I read this today from John: > We will need an equivalent Desktop User Guide for KDE like what now > exists for GNOME. See > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide. > This should probably be a separate document for now. I actually think we could just reorganize and put KDE and GNOME content all into the same guide. Much of the surrounding content is the same (logging in, etc.), so it would increase maintenance of identical documentation. In XML we can more easily build custom DUGlets, that is, a DUG with a specific desktop only focus. I think keeping all eyes on one DUG with dual-WM support should do it. Does that sound reasonable? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Nov 25 19:12:51 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:12:51 -0800 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> <1164408234.18400.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611242124g54bb4777s6b5b161e0f4514fc@mail.gmail.com> <9d2c731f0611250100p163e91c1ha738089bdcfac3e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1164481971.2584.148.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 05:42 -0600, Dan Smith wrote: > . Suggest a non-C like language to many Nix people and they get this > really sour look on their face. Just as a point of reference, when Sun made their recent announcement about opening Java under the GPL, I saw a lot of interesting mailing list traffic. People who haven't looked Java since programming class in University were saying, "Let's figure out how to get people like me up to speed on Java."[1] Some similar things for Mono, when that got included in the distro. There are more open minds out there than you'd think. It is IMHO opinion better to listen to them and put our energy into supporting those people than anyone who has language-hate in their eyes. :) - Karsten [1] I opened this but haven't had anybody contributing yet: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/JavaProgramming -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From linux at glossolalie.org Sat Nov 25 20:20:02 2006 From: linux at glossolalie.org (Thierry Sayegh De Bellis) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 20:20:02 +0000 Subject: Self-introduction: Thierry Sayegh De Bellis In-Reply-To: <1164480069.2584.118.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <45635D1F.2060500@glossolalie.org> <1164480069.2584.118.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4568A572.3090806@glossolalie.org> Karsten Wade wrote: > > This is excellent. We are getting a number of new contributors who have > strong sysadmin experienced, in multiple areas of business/academia. > I'd like to take the successful methods used for the release notes, and > apply them to this: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AdministrationGuide > > This means breaking the guide down to concept areas (beats[1]) and > having a writer cover one or more. > > [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats Good idea! looks quite rational to me. > > How wide do you like to apply yourself to a project? What I mean is, > are you interested in "just writing", or are you interested in lending > opinion, expertise, and work on technical areas of this project? If I can help with more than just writing I will do it gladly. I'd rather help this project than continue wasting too much time on the internet doing what amounts to generally idling. cheers Thierry -- (o< Thierry Sayegh de Bellis, RHCE //\ http://glossolalie.com V_/_ Fingerprint: 9976 11FE D9C6 8C67 6242 7BB1 6466 3F1D 56ED 7D5A From jmbabich at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 20:27:09 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 23:27:09 +0300 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: <1164481258.2584.138.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> <1164481258.2584.138.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611251227s4dd54b67q6411dff316766d5d@mail.gmail.com> On 11/25/06, Karsten Wade wrote: [snipped lots of thought-provoking ideas...what follows is a small excerpt] > So, to be clear, I'm "totally into" this idea, which is Californiaese > for, "Yes, let's do it." > I appreciate your cross-cultural sensitivity. We East-Coasters sometimes need Californiaese-to-East-Coastese translations. > I'd like to see some input from across this project and mailing list; we > have quite a few people who lurk here and have insight. > > Hey, Debianistas! Ubuntuarians! Suseneros! Solarisas! Slackers! > Gentootians! > > And every other project large and small!?! I totally agree with your clarion call. Lurkers of the FOSS world, unite! As for the rest of your reply, I am mulling over your response. My initial response is definitely to give more support to the Linux Documentation Project. This is another FOSS project to which I owe a great debt. I also like the Summit concept. I hope to map out a fairly clear spec on the FOSS toolchain. This entitles starting from a clear grasp of what is available right now. John Babich From draciron at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 22:28:45 2006 From: draciron at gmail.com (Dan Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 16:28:45 -0600 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: <1164481258.2584.138.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> <1164481258.2584.138.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On 11/25/06, Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 22:09 +0300, John Babich wrote: > > Yes, and as you have already imagined, many projects are in this first > step, and know it, and aren't sure how to move from there. I'd suggest, or really second as this idea has already been put forth that we begin by opening channels of communication between us and others in similer endeavors. > If there is enough interest here to really get something of this > magnitude started, let's knock around all the tough stuff for a few > weeks. I'd like to sponsor a teleconference + IRC + gobby + > $whiteboard-app mini-summit for all those who are interested in moving > this forward. From today, it seems like January would be a good time; > give us about five to six weeks of mailing list activity and research > before getting together to hammer out a proposal to take to other FLOSS > projects. That sounds like a good idea. Question of whether other projects are as interested in co-opertive efforts. This is interesting, the focus/inclusion of toolchain within this. I'll > get back to that. > > > This project is bigger than all of us. This is where we need to > > realize that the entire FOSS community needs to be involved. Every > > FOSS project needs documentation. It seems every project also has a > > problem producing it. Documentation, coding and all other aspects. It's volenteers doing the work. So people as they are able and willing to produce bits and pieces, the weak spot of Open Source. How can you set a deadline on somebody doing things purely out of good will? They have to pay bills first. Many companies have generously donated the services of employees to work on OS projects on company time. That has helped tremendously. I think that may be the best route. Companies that depend on OSS efforts can see the clear benifits in allowing people to work part time on OSS projects. Promoting this may be a way to give people more time for OSS projects. > 1. There aren't as many commonalities between distros as there are > differences I found that distros based on the Red Hat model like Mandriva, Knoppix, Cent OS and SUSE to have quite a bit in common and very little difference. I can sit down at a Mandriva machine and forget what distro I am on. SUSE has noticable differences but most things run exactly like they do on Fedora. The tools vary some in the GUI. Especially for system maintenance. If you go to the configuration files they look almost exactly the same. I havn't installed Ubuntu so I have little idea on the differences. I installed the most recent Debian distro a few years back when my company was deciding on what distro to move too after Red Hat split into Enterprise and Fedora. There were some noticable differences in many areas but the core of it was just plain Linux like any other distro I've worked with. The big diffences were again in the GUI and system tools like package managers. I also tried out Free BSD, a Gentoo distro, SUSE, Mandriva and a couple less well known distros. Free BSD had the most differences obviously since it was not Linux. Still even between Linux and BSD there was a core feel that was easy to adapt too. Unlike Solaris which did some rather odd things in my opinion. ls is ls, df is df. /etc was /etc while you might find a few things moved around the core of it stayed the same. The differences seemed to be things like tarball vrs rpm vrs apt-get and the many other variations on how to install an app. The GUI or lack there of for configuring a file that is identical or nearly identical in various distros. I think that a common documentation project would help bring the best of each distro to other distros. I wouldn't be surprised to see package managers like yum and apt-get agree on a common interface. The internals might be different but standardizing the interface for the best usability would make it easier for all. Many GUI apps are distro independent. So while under the hood there are differences, to the end user the distro is transparent while using a tool like grip or the desktop itself whether it be Gnome or KDE or a lightweight window manger or while not running X at all. Apache is apache, MySQL is MySQL. The location might be different for the files but the files are the same and what you do with those apps and files are the same. 2. Any body that does this work is going to spend a significant amount > of time dealing with politics and in-fighting That is the question. The politics and the my distro is better than your distro kind of thing. Another set of politics is old school Nix vrs new school Nix. That's a knot to resolve. > > In the end, it might be the last one that is the true challenge. People > like what they like and don't want to change over to what I like or what > you like. If we don't want to make fixing the attitude of all One of the beauties of Linux is the freedom of choice and the ability of each and every user to build a machine that fits them like a glove. What is a great way of doing things for one person may be a horrible way of doing it for another. Lyx might be a great tool for some. Others will prefer to work in HTML based technologies. The solution is simple. A standardized output format that allows people to use what tools suite them best in the creation then they merely export to the needed format or submit a common format to be converted to the standardized format. I do have a problem with the Unix man page format myself. Most are about as useful as no documentation at all. Especially to newer users. The options are often not well explained and frequently missing options that have been added since the creation of the man page. A good man page has extensive examples, many man pages completely lack examples at all or only have examples of the most basic usage. I and many others turn to Google rather than man pages for the bulk of our documentation reference. There we find usage examples that can easily be modified to suite what we are trying to do. There are no man pages for most GUI apps, the help pages usually missing or very bare. Most importantly, the idea of the info pages seems to have been really abandoned. The Info pages were an attempt to address organizing tools by tasks and giving users and alphabetical list to look through as well. I'd love to see an X version of info which had the kind of details you find in a X versions of Yum. Since I started using gnome-yum I've discovered dozens of really useful tools I have had on my machines for years but just didn't know about. Few people really realize the power of the software already on most Linux distros. I would suggest that as a format. Look at the way Gnome-yum organizes packages to download and the kind of descriptions you get. What if you could do the same thing with documentation? Search, browse by catagories since many pieces of software will have multiple catagories and by various types of tags that can be applied such as X app, networking tool, sys admin tool, Windows connectivity software and so on. I think such a tool would be a help to long time and new Linux users alike. > 3. Distro only. We could start a new, cross-distro documentation > commons. Maybe use an existing umbrella organization to work under, so > it can hold single control (joint copyright, etc.), sort of like an FSF > for documentation. One issue that comes up immediately is license, > which is where the common upstream entity is valuable. It can provide > multiple licenses for downstream use, who would have to multi-license (n > +1) all content they contributed back up. Lots of complexity, and we > need to research the actual value. For example, how much work would > this be v. putting human energy into converting all man pages to XML and > making a Web interface (Wiki) for editing them. This cross-project > would be a lot of effort into interacting components. The "Wiki in > front of man pages" would be putting content editing directly in the > control of the communities, and then we all just advertise > manpagecommons.org/wiki. :) The easy way is to create it and let them come. If we created a tool like an X version of info that covered all aspects of Linux, then it would be fairly simple to attach distro specific flags to areas. To denote in common documentation variations between distros or if for example your sitting there at your desktop on a Fedora machine helping a Mandriva user you can switch to a Mandriva centric view of the documentation. Each distro's documenation projects responsible for contributions to the project as a whole. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc URL: From draciron at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 23:04:28 2006 From: draciron at gmail.com (Dan Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:04:28 -0600 Subject: KDE inclusion In-Reply-To: <1164481500.2584.143.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1164481500.2584.143.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: The key thing is most Linux users I know, myself included mix and match KDE and Gnome apps. I use Grip not the KDE equiv. Don't even remember what it's called. I use Kedit rather than Gedit and frequently use Kate and Nedit as well. Then you have desktop independent software like sound players (Xmms, Zinf, etc) video players like Xine that are desktop independent but are a core part of almost all desktops. Along with Xine you havd desktop specific apps which may or may not be relivent. Me I'm going to use which is best and not really care if it's a Gnome or KDE app. For most tasks I use Xine, but I've found Kaffine does better with some formats or for some purposes so I have both installed as well as Mplayer for other purposes and formats. So what I'd suggest as an alternate is that for core functions we have a common set of documentation. Then for desktop specifics, for example configuring a KDE destop to play mp3s then seperate links for the specifics. I suspect that most people, even those who have not installed the full desktop have most of it installed anyway to support those apps from the other desktop they cannot live without. K3b probably being the most common example of that. Gnome and KDE users may be unaware of really cool utilities that exist in the other desktop. So by having them in the same documentation it can be a discovery process for them. So the main value is in configuration. Adding an app to the menu of different desktops is a very different process. Where something is located is different not only between desktops but also between versions of the desktop sometimes. Where is not important, the how is. How to configure your networking from GUI or from command line for example. When we are talking about command line we are talking about the same no matter what desktop you are running. So we have a common and redundant if we split the documents up piece of information relivent to all desktops. If we have multiple copies it is certain to get out of synch. So it needs to be embedded or linked. The core concepts of networking are again common. What IP ranges to use if you are creating a home network for example. So the boxes you fill in may look different or may be the same between desktops and only the steps to get to them are different perhaps. I'd have to look actually :) I do it all from command line myself. So I'm thinking that embedded docs in the same framework will be better. When somebody wants to go to very desktop specific areas then split off. An example might be When configuring a home network blah blah blah link to KDE, Gnome, Command line with steps using each. DNS configuration using blah blah In this way the user scrolls down finds the relivent information, then has a link to follow for the method to accomplish the task. They might be using one desktop or another and find it will be clearer and easier to switch to the other desktop to accomplish this task. They might only choose the desktop they use and go with those docs or might do it from the command line and skip all the GUIs. The steps specific to a desktop might lead back to a common place. They might also be known to the user and that part of the documentation skipped over as they already have the proper app open already. On 11/25/06, Karsten Wade wrote: > > I went to bed last night thinking, "We need to add Kmail, Konversation, > and Konquerer to the DUG," and then I read this today from John: > > > We will need an equivalent Desktop User Guide for KDE like what now > > exists for GNOME. See > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide. > > This should probably be a separate document for now. > > I actually think we could just reorganize and put KDE and GNOME content > all into the same guide. Much of the surrounding content is the same > (logging in, etc.), so it would increase maintenance of identical > documentation. In XML we can more easily build custom DUGlets, that is, > a DUG with a specific desktop only focus. I think keeping all eyes on > one DUG with dual-WM support should do it. Does that sound reasonable? > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project > Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 > ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sun Nov 26 00:46:28 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 16:46:28 -0800 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611251227s4dd54b67q6411dff316766d5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> <1164481258.2584.138.camel@erato.phig.org> <9d2c731f0611251227s4dd54b67q6411dff316766d5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1164501988.2584.164.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 23:27 +0300, John Babich wrote: > Lurkers of the FOSS world, unite! Yes. This list is currently 578 members. I believe that some of the audience here are folks from various FLOSS projects. With a well considered proposal, we can attract attention. Articles in LWN and Red Hat Magazine, attention via Fedora Weekly News (FWN) and fedora-announce-list. Talk it up in fedora-ambassadors and f-marketing, get people representing the ideas (with a nice presentation?) at FLOSS conferences around the world. So, the potential is there, the machinery to move an idea to reality is there. > As for the rest of your reply, I am mulling over your response. My initial > response is definitely to give more support to the Linux Documentation > Project. This is another FOSS project to which I owe a great debt. We may take another multi-prong approach, the key is to find a way to make the UI common. One Wiki to rule them all, with XML output to unbind them, and SCM access to all. Multi-prong: * man/info pages and /usr/share/doc/* * short content common to all distros (LDP) * package specific guide content (how to use Evolution or Kmail, GNOME or KDE common, all the way up to using Apache and SELinux * Fedora-specific layers (i.e., project customization layer) > I also like the Summit concept. I hope to map out a fairly clear spec on > the FOSS toolchain. This entitles starting from a clear grasp of what is > available right now. Should you make a specific task we can track here? This is for various projects going on within the overall documentation program as run by the FDSCo (FD Steering Committee): http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/TaskSchedule - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Sun Nov 26 01:56:03 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 01:56:03 +0000 Subject: KDE inclusion In-Reply-To: <1164481500.2584.143.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1164481500.2584.143.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4568F433.2090202@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > I went to bed last night thinking, "We need to add Kmail, Konversation, > and Konquerer to the DUG," and then I read this today from John: > >> We will need an equivalent Desktop User Guide for KDE like what now >> exists for GNOME. See >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide. >> This should probably be a separate document for now. > > I actually think we could just reorganize and put KDE and GNOME content > all into the same guide. Much of the surrounding content is the same > (logging in, etc.), so it would increase maintenance of identical > documentation. In XML we can more easily build custom DUGlets, that is, > a DUG with a specific desktop only focus. I think keeping all eyes on > one DUG with dual-WM support should do it. Does that sound reasonable? +1. Besides, at some point we might want to add XFCE as well or even smaller alternative components like Thunderbird. Let's think ahead and choose robust/maintainable solutions over of quick and easy ones. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From dtfedora at yahoo.com Sun Nov 26 02:36:33 2006 From: dtfedora at yahoo.com (Dimitrios Typaldos) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:36:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Docs Self Introduction :Dimitrios Typaldos Message-ID: <20061126023633.90430.qmail@web57914.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Self-Introduction: Dimitrios Typaldos Hello ! Full legal name (as you use it is fine) : Dimitrios Typaldos City: Birmingham, Country: United Kingdom Timezone: GMT Profession or Student status: PhD candidate student Particle Physics University of Birmingham, UK Newly introduced in the Fedora Project but as a user for long time , I am intending to contribute initially in software translation/documentation (in greek as this is my native language) and later in technical issues (for the moment I have some time constraints). I have the passion to learn and get involved as much as I can in linux os. Computer skills : - shell script programming , C/C++/FORTRAN at good level and a bit of python GPG KEYID and fingerprint [dimitris at computer ~]$ gpg --fingerprint dtfedora at yahoo.com pub 1024D/6A7B898C 2006-11-16 Key fingerprint = F892 27EB 871A 3C16 B18E 3AD5 3A6A 3F77 6A7B 898C uid Dimitrios Typaldos (Encrypted) sub 2048g/4773BB57 2006-11-16 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoganoe at cox.net Sun Nov 26 03:05:01 2006 From: geoganoe at cox.net (George Ganoe) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:05:01 -0500 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> <1164408234.18400.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611242124g54bb4777s6b5b161e0f4514fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4569045D.9060409@cox.net> Dan Smith wrote: > ... > > What I would like to see is more cooperation between KDE, Gnome and > other desktop managers. Linux is about freedom right? Yet distros like > Ubuntu don't even bother including KDE in the base install. Gnome under > SUSE can be a real pain. What major distro doesn't include not just both > but other commonly used desktop managers? I'm seeing clique like > behavior. Elitism and snobbery that will turn people away from Linux in > droves. The C/C++ snobbery has already hurt Linux badly. I'm sorry but > not everybody like C based languages. We should be bending over > backwards to accomadate people not drive them away from Linux. > Cooperation between KDE, Gnome, and other Desktop managers would be great to see. However, I think it should be at the upstream level between the various projects themselves. As to dissing other distributions for what they choose to include in the distribution, I think that is uncalled for. For instance, Ubuntu has made a concerted effort to provide as complete a desktop environment as possible on a single CDROM disk. If they were to put KDE as well as Gnome on the disk, something else would have to go. Since KDE and Gnome serve the same function, they made a choice, and with many other applications with multiple selections, they made choices there as well. But in the end, they were able to create a very complete desktop environment and put it on a single CD. If the user wants to add KDE, they can select it for install in the "Synaptic Package Manager" and get a very complete KDE desktop very easily, or use the command line and type "sudo apt-get install kde" to get the same thing. I find it hard to believe that giving someone who is having trouble with his Windows machine and wanting to try something else, a single CD that provides him with an environment he can play around with and install if he likes it, will turn people away from Linux. On the contrary, I believe it gives many people an easy path to entering into the Linux world. George From jmbabich at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 06:24:57 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 09:24:57 +0300 Subject: Lest anyone think we're alone... In-Reply-To: <4569045D.9060409@cox.net> References: <1164382824.18400.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611241109v563122c9lb49c147140c3a0c6@mail.gmail.com> <1164408234.18400.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9d2c731f0611242124g54bb4777s6b5b161e0f4514fc@mail.gmail.com> <4569045D.9060409@cox.net> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611252224p1d2b74efj3261a4e2b9d88d6@mail.gmail.com> On 11/26/06, George Ganoe wrote: > For instance, Ubuntu has made a concerted effort to provide as > complete a desktop environment as possible on a single CDROM disk. If > they were to put KDE as well as Gnome on the disk, something else would > have to go. Since KDE and Gnome serve the same function, they made a > choice, and with many other applications with multiple selections, they > made choices there as well. But in the end, they were able to create > a very complete desktop environment and put it on a single CD. If the > user wants to add KDE, they can select it for install in the "Synaptic > Package Manager" and get a very complete KDE desktop very easily, or > use the command line and type "sudo apt-get install kde" to get the same > thing. > I certainly agree with you that a single CD does not allow for every possible choice. The selection of software packages will always leave some users unhappy that their favorite application was left out. That's where the value of apt-get and yum installs comes into play. > I find it hard to believe that giving someone who is having trouble with > his Windows machine and wanting to try something else, a single CD that > provides him with an environment he can play around with and install if > he likes it, will turn people away from Linux. On the contrary, I believe > it gives many people an easy path to entering into the Linux world. > That's why including a live CD in the standard downloads is such a high priority with the Fedora Project. John Babich From stickster at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 19:05:51 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 14:05:51 -0500 Subject: Fedora Docs bulid tools and poss. libxslt changes Message-ID: <1164567951.26378.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Since Karsten tells me we have 578 people on fedora-docs-list, I'm hoping someone out there can help troubleshoot this problem. Out of desperation, I'm cc'ing Mr. Veillard, who I hope will take pity and not squash me like a grape. :-) In moving to FC6, I've found that one of my previous templates has "broken." Given their excruciating attention to detail, I'm guessing this has to do with either a better adherence to standards in the newer libxslt-1.1.18, or a fix to a bug that I was unknowingly taking advantage of in FC5 (libxslt-1.1.15). I can't find anything through Google to help me figure out what's changed, and I'm no XSLT expert. http://phpfi.com/178472 -- bookinfo.xsl http://phpfi.com/178473 -- templates.xsl http://phpfi.com/178474 -- rpm-info.xml To see the problem, download the files and: $ xsltproc bookinfo.xsl rpm-info.xml Note the new behavior under libxslt-1.1.18 produces a DocBook XML snippet with an empty element, where there used to be content as required by the DocBook DTD. I inserted a few elements to check whether "@worker" is evaluating properly, which it is. But the "$who" variable is not being carried to the templates.xsl sheet properly. Does anyone have any ideas? And can anyone tell me why this worked in libxslt-1.1.15 and not now? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 19:08:36 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 14:08:36 -0500 Subject: Docs Self Introduction :Dimitrios Typaldos In-Reply-To: <20061126023633.90430.qmail@web57914.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <20061126023633.90430.qmail@web57914.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1164568116.26378.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 18:36 -0800, Dimitrios Typaldos wrote: > > Self-Introduction: Dimitrios Typaldos > Hello ! Greetings Dimitrios, please jump in and get involved. We have a lot of momentum on the Desktop User Guide currently, and discussions involving direction for that work. We look forward to your assistance. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 10:39:28 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:39:28 +0300 Subject: Docs Self Introduction :Dimitrios Typaldos In-Reply-To: <1164568116.26378.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20061126023633.90430.qmail@web57914.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1164568116.26378.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611270239x28d9a3al87c9dd0e67316901@mail.gmail.com> Hello, Dimitrios, and welcome to the Docs team. John Babich On 11/26/06, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 18:36 -0800, Dimitrios Typaldos wrote: > > > > Self-Introduction: Dimitrios Typaldos > > Hello ! > > Greetings Dimitrios, please jump in and get involved. We have a lot of > momentum on the Desktop User Guide currently, and discussions involving > direction for that work. We look forward to your assistance. > > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board > Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > From jmbabich at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 10:40:47 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:40:47 +0300 Subject: Self-introduction: Thierry Sayegh De Bellis In-Reply-To: <4568A572.3090806@glossolalie.org> References: <45635D1F.2060500@glossolalie.org> <1164480069.2584.118.camel@erato.phig.org> <4568A572.3090806@glossolalie.org> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611270240t3447d05dg6f271b7159566058@mail.gmail.com> Hello to you, Thierry, and welcome to the Docs team. John Babich On 11/25/06, Thierry Sayegh De Bellis wrote: > Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > > This is excellent. We are getting a number of new contributors who have > > strong sysadmin experienced, in multiple areas of business/academia. > > I'd like to take the successful methods used for the release notes, and > > apply them to this: > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AdministrationGuide > > > > This means breaking the guide down to concept areas (beats[1]) and > > having a writer cover one or more. > > > > [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats > > Good idea! looks quite rational to me. > > > > > How wide do you like to apply yourself to a project? What I mean is, > > are you interested in "just writing", or are you interested in lending > > opinion, expertise, and work on technical areas of this project? > > If I can help with more than just writing I will do it gladly. I'd > rather help this project than continue wasting too much time on the > internet doing what amounts to generally idling. > > cheers > > > Thierry > > -- > (o< Thierry Sayegh de Bellis, RHCE > //\ http://glossolalie.com > V_/_ Fingerprint: 9976 11FE D9C6 8C67 6242 7BB1 6466 3F1D 56ED 7D5A > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From jmbabich at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 10:42:06 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:42:06 +0300 Subject: Self-Introduction: Rosh Ravindran In-Reply-To: References: <216e00af0611221330u337d945do1079b6b2c32dce64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611270242y5dc3fcefo99fd1ef656a56119@mail.gmail.com> Greetings, Rosh, and welcome to the fedora Docs team. John Babich On 11/23/06, Damien Durand wrote: > Hey Rosh, welcome to Fedora Docs! ;-) > > Damien Durand, > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > From jmbabich at gmail.com Mon Nov 27 19:27:26 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:27:26 +0300 Subject: FOSS Docs Mini-Summit Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611271127n3955ba59yfcf639096348a7e@mail.gmail.com> Here is a first draft at preparing and planning for the proposed FOSS Docs summit: FOSS Docs the FOSS Way A completely free (as in freedom) and automated toolchain would be of tremendous benefit to the Fedora Project as well as the FOSS community-at-large. To realize this goal, we are proposing an online FOSS Documentation Tools Summit tentatively planned for late January 2007. In preparation for this event, we need to * prepare an agenda for the summit * put together a contact list of possible participants from other FOSS projects * publicize the event in the FOSS community Meanwhile, we also plan to * review what are the common FOSS tools and techniques in use today [the real] * map out the best documentation workflow [the ideal] * identify the gaps and how best to fill them [how to get there from here] We hope to arrive at a community-wide consensus on the best way to proceed. [Excerpted from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas] From kwade at redhat.com Tue Nov 28 01:54:16 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:54:16 -0800 Subject: FOSS Docs Mini-Summit In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611271127n3955ba59yfcf639096348a7e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0611271127n3955ba59yfcf639096348a7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1164678856.2584.246.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-11-27 at 22:27 +0300, John Babich wrote: > Here is a first draft at preparing and planning for the proposed FOSS > Docs summit: > > FOSS Docs the FOSS Way > > A completely free (as in freedom) and automated toolchain would be of > tremendous benefit to the Fedora Project as well as the FOSS > community-at-large. To realize this goal, we are proposing an online > FOSS Documentation Tools Summit tentatively planned for late January > 2007. My original thinking ... and realize that I am a balance called "realistic-optimist" ... is that we'll be lucky if we can have our own ideas together for talking amongst ourselves by January. I guess my caution comes from thinking, we'll get one, best chance to reach out to other FLOSS projects, and I want to be sure we have our own activities and thinking together first. From the way you structured the content below, I think you are looking for a summit as a way to prepare all of our thinking and activities as a larger group. This is fun, riskier, and enticing. So, it is an interesting and different take. I'm intrigued by these many directions. Do we know enough about what we want to and think we should do as the documentation project of Fedora? I think we need to first and immediately take these ideas within the Fedora Project and see where the ideas go. The other contributors ultimately look to us to dream up and implement the best solutions, but many of our target upstream and cross-stream players are already working in Fedora, and we're going to keep them involved anyway in connecting with other FLOSS projects. The sooner, the merrier. Then (perhaps) we want a pre-summit with some folks who arise from these conversations, if we can't get it all nailed down via list/Wiki. What think ye others? [snip structure as [Excerpted from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas]] > We hope to arrive at a community-wide consensus on the best way to proceed. Before we get ahead, what is our Fedora-wide consensus on the way to proceed? Gaining that has the advantage of gaining buy-in from upstream projects (GNOME, Apache, etc.). Perhaps we need to start and motivate a new thread or three on fedora-devel-l and/or fedora-maintainers. What about other contributors? There really is no "fedora-contributors-l" but we could use f-announce-l. What do we want to find out from that? * How do we want to interact with other content sharing with upstream? * What is the nature of what we want to house (be upstream) in the Fedora Project? - Artwork, branding, trademarks - Distro specific layer on top of any common documents * What do we want to support as the Fedora project for work going upstream? - man/info - /usr/share/doc/* - Javadoc, doxygen, etc. - Other? * How do we want to get content moving from _here_ to _there_? - Individual accounts in various systems? (*ick*) - Through Fedora developers? (better) - Similar to Fedora Trans how? - Automagically? (best) * What about common toolchains? Can we get XML or XHTML from everyone and some ability to share content? - Licensing issues - SCM and/or - CMS * Other? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pvrabec at redhat.com Tue Nov 28 14:06:47 2006 From: pvrabec at redhat.com (Peter Vrabec) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:06:47 +0100 Subject: Self-Introduction: Peter Vrabec Message-ID: <20061128150647.00380e04@wrabco.redhat.usu> Full name: Peter Vrabec City, country: Brno, Czech Republic Profession: Software engineer, student Company: Red Hat, Inc., Brno technical university My goal in the Fedora docs project is: - provide useful documentation about IPv6 My historical qualifications: - Master degree in computer sience - Work at Red Hat * maintainer of: ckermit cpio dosfstools epic ircii logrotate mkbootdisk compress pax shadow-utils star sudo tar uucp wu-ftpd GPG KEYID and fingerprint: pub 1024D/00335BB1 2006-11-28 Key fingerprint = 12F4 2FFD 315C 8DAB 9EAE 1289 B60A 7D8E 0033 5BB1 uid Peter Vrabec sub 2048g/787CF3D5 2006-11-28 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Tue Nov 28 14:26:03 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:26:03 -0600 Subject: moin 1.5.6 + squid = new wiki In-Reply-To: <3237e4410611280614s55a247dfy24299475582fbae8@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410611280614s55a247dfy24299475582fbae8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200611280826.10941.nman64@n-man.com> On Tuesday 28 November 2006 08:14, Mike McGrath wrote: > So Paulobanon and kim0 have been working on getting the squid servers > ready and upgrading the wiki. Here's what they have so far > > http://webtest.fedora.redhat.com/wiki > > Who else should we be notifying about this for testing before we do > the final conversion? > At least the folks I've CC'd. Anyone else who works heavily on the wiki or who is responsible for large chunks of it should be "in the loop", both for the sake of testing and to be prepared after the final conversion. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 18:16:40 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:16:40 -0500 Subject: Fedora Docs bulid tools and poss. libxslt changes In-Reply-To: <20061127093034.GJ17447@redhat.com> References: <1164567951.26378.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061127093034.GJ17447@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1164737800.26378.127.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-11-27 at 04:30 -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote: > On Sun, Nov 26, 2006 at 02:05:51PM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Since Karsten tells me we have 578 people on fedora-docs-list, I'm > > hoping someone out there can help troubleshoot this problem. Out of > > desperation, I'm cc'ing Mr. Veillard, who I hope will take pity and not > > squash me like a grape. :-) > > Pity is not a very sustainable relationship, isn't it ? ;-) > > > In moving to FC6, I've found that one of my previous templates has > > "broken." Given their excruciating attention to detail, I'm guessing > > this has to do with either a better adherence to standards in the newer > > libxslt-1.1.18, or a fix to a bug that I was unknowingly taking > > advantage of in FC5 (libxslt-1.1.15). I can't find anything through > > Google to help me figure out what's changed, and I'm no XSLT expert. > > > > http://phpfi.com/178472 -- bookinfo.xsl > > http://phpfi.com/178473 -- templates.xsl > > http://phpfi.com/178474 -- rpm-info.xml > > doesn't seems to indicate that fact it expects > a parameter called who > http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#section-Defining-Template-Rules > http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#element-param > Thank you very much, Daniel... Just so I can understand where I went wrong, I take it there's a change in the way scope works between libxslt-1.1.15 and libxslt-1.1.18? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Nov 28 18:27:49 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:57:49 +0530 Subject: KDE inclusion In-Reply-To: <1164481500.2584.143.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1164481500.2584.143.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <456C7FA5.5060500@fedoraproject.org> Karsten Wade wrote: > I went to bed last night thinking, "We need to add Kmail, Konversation, > and Konquerer to the DUG," and then I read this today from John: > >> We will need an equivalent Desktop User Guide for KDE like what now >> exists for GNOME. See >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide. >> This should probably be a separate document for now. > > I actually think we could just reorganize and put KDE and GNOME content > all into the same guide. Much of the surrounding content is the same > (logging in, etc.), so it would increase maintenance of identical > documentation. In XML we can more easily build custom DUGlets, that is, > a DUG with a specific desktop only focus. I think keeping all eyes on > one DUG with dual-WM support should do it. Does that sound reasonable? > The documentation team needs to carefully look at the effects of this proposal - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit/ReleaseProcess. Modularizing content the same way the packages are done allowing people to somehow specify "dependencies" might work. Rahul From jmbabich at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 19:18:55 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:18:55 +0300 Subject: KDE inclusion In-Reply-To: <456C7FA5.5060500@fedoraproject.org> References: <1164481500.2584.143.camel@erato.phig.org> <456C7FA5.5060500@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611281118g2450b39boadb90414b7989ae5@mail.gmail.com> On 11/28/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > The documentation team needs to carefully look at the effects of this > proposal - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit/ReleaseProcess. > Modularizing content the same way the packages are done allowing people > to somehow specify "dependencies" might work. I agree that we need to avoid a monolithic document. We should continue to produce specific modules (GNOME, KDE, Xfce) which can perhaps be dynamically linked to produce a custom doc (for instance, FUD with a KDE flavor). How to do it still escapes me. Perhaps using INCLUDEs with some scripting would do the trick. John Babich From jmbabich at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 19:20:49 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:20:49 +0300 Subject: KDE inclusion In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0611281118g2450b39boadb90414b7989ae5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1164481500.2584.143.camel@erato.phig.org> <456C7FA5.5060500@fedoraproject.org> <9d2c731f0611281118g2450b39boadb90414b7989ae5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611281120y60f30ca5r395b1ad18ef34580@mail.gmail.com> LOL!! Sorry, I'm been reading too much industry news lately. Please substitute the acronym DUG for FUD in my last posting. John Babich On 11/28/06, John Babich wrote: > On 11/28/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > The documentation team needs to carefully look at the effects of this > > proposal - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit/ReleaseProcess. > > Modularizing content the same way the packages are done allowing people > > to somehow specify "dependencies" might work. > > I agree that we need to avoid a monolithic document. We should continue > to produce specific modules (GNOME, KDE, Xfce) which can perhaps be > dynamically linked to produce a custom doc (for instance, FUD with a KDE > flavor). > > How to do it still escapes me. Perhaps using INCLUDEs with some scripting > would do the trick. > > John Babich > From kwade at redhat.com Wed Nov 29 03:23:34 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:23:34 -0800 Subject: Self-Introduction: Peter Vrabec In-Reply-To: <20061128150647.00380e04@wrabco.redhat.usu> References: <20061128150647.00380e04@wrabco.redhat.usu> Message-ID: <1164770615.2584.363.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 15:06 +0100, Peter Vrabec wrote: > Full name: Peter Vrabec > City, country: Brno, Czech Republic > Profession: Software engineer, student > Company: Red Hat, Inc., Brno technical university > > My goal in the Fedora docs project is: > - provide useful documentation about IPv6 Peter: Excellent, welcome. We definitely need IPv6 documentation. I have heard of other people interested in this; if you want collaborators, bring your proposal to this list before you get much written. If you have questions about how to get started, this page helps: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters#submitting-new cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 06:19:05 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:19:05 +0300 Subject: Self-Introduction: Peter Vrabec In-Reply-To: <1164770615.2584.363.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20061128150647.00380e04@wrabco.redhat.usu> <1164770615.2584.363.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0611282219p44c7c9c7g89a89cbdeb7a8181@mail.gmail.com> V?tejte, Peter! Disclaimer: Not fluent in Czech language. John Babich On 11/29/06, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 15:06 +0100, Peter Vrabec wrote: > > Full name: Peter Vrabec > > City, country: Brno, Czech Republic > > Profession: Software engineer, student > > Company: Red Hat, Inc., Brno technical university > > > > My goal in the Fedora docs project is: > > - provide useful documentation about IPv6 > > Peter: > > Excellent, welcome. > > We definitely need IPv6 documentation. I have heard of other people > interested in this; if you want collaborators, bring your proposal to > this list before you get much written. If you have questions about how > to get started, this page helps: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters#submitting-new > > cheers - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project > Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 > ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > From stickster at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 12:23:28 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:23:28 -0500 Subject: KDE inclusion In-Reply-To: <456C7FA5.5060500@fedoraproject.org> References: <1164481500.2584.143.camel@erato.phig.org> <456C7FA5.5060500@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1164803008.17966.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 23:57 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Karsten Wade wrote: > > I went to bed last night thinking, "We need to add Kmail, Konversation, > > and Konquerer to the DUG," and then I read this today from John: > > > >> We will need an equivalent Desktop User Guide for KDE like what now > >> exists for GNOME. See > >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide. > >> This should probably be a separate document for now. > > > > I actually think we could just reorganize and put KDE and GNOME content > > all into the same guide. Much of the surrounding content is the same > > (logging in, etc.), so it would increase maintenance of identical > > documentation. In XML we can more easily build custom DUGlets, that is, > > a DUG with a specific desktop only focus. I think keeping all eyes on > > one DUG with dual-WM support should do it. Does that sound reasonable? > > > > The documentation team needs to carefully look at the effects of this > proposal - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit/ReleaseProcess. > Modularizing content the same way the packages are done allowing people > to somehow specify "dependencies" might work. Yes, modularization of content is something we've been discussing since before last year's FUDCon in Boston. This becomes increasingly important in the event that Red Hat Content Services releases their documentation content to the community under compatible licensing. Certain areas will be useful as is, while we may need to change others to reflect Fedora more closely. It turns out this is actually quite easy using XInclude in DocBook XML, which we've been doing for some time now. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Nov 30 22:40:51 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:40:51 -0500 Subject: DocBook XML rises from the ashes! Message-ID: <1164926451.25685.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi gang, It has become apparent over the last few months that having only a couple of people with DocBook XML and CVS skills is a bit of a hampering factor for the Docs Project. This is completely independent of Wiki use, and whether we have wiki docs or not, we will *always* need some people with these skills, more than we have right now for sure. I raised this issue in Tuesday's meeting and wanted to follow up with a proposal. We need at least four volunteers to step up to learn these technologies, only to the extent needed to accomplish the following goals: 1. Understand how to check out document modules from our source code management (SCM) system -- currently CVS. 2. Build documents that are already written and edited, and report problems fully if unsuccessful. 3. Understand how to make changes as directed and commit them to the SCM. 4. Understand how to publish documents to the web site. (Currently this is fedora.redhat.com/docs, but we will track changes as needed.) We need to agree on a way to train in these technologies. I think IRC meetings would suffice, but we will need to agree on a date and time. We can use other technologies on an "as needed" basis, such as gobby. I can promise people that the training will be virtually painless and will require *NO prior experience* with any markup language, shell scripting or programming language, although if you've ever hit "View Source" in your Firefox browser, that's a plus. (You don't have to understand what you saw, but the fact that you cared shows a lot of promise.) :-) I can also promise you that anyone can learn this stuff, especially anyone who already knows how to install and use Fedora. In fact, I didn't know any of it until I got here in 2003. (And some would probably say that I only know enough to be dangerous now.) Please step up -- we need YOU! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From linux at glossolalie.org Thu Nov 30 22:54:03 2006 From: linux at glossolalie.org (Thierry Sayegh De Bellis) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:54:03 +0000 Subject: DocBook XML rises from the ashes! In-Reply-To: <1164926451.25685.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1164926451.25685.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <456F610B.7080100@glossolalie.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Paul, since i have some experience with SCM already...I volunteer ;-) Thierry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFb2ELZGY/HVbtfVoRAhdNAKCwvCIkDwOQfUxrJAkYU+ji+tzdKgCeL/Ae l9EQvhyQD+26YQAyUcaUAW0= =59YO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vnk at mkc.co.nz Thu Nov 30 23:40:30 2006 From: vnk at mkc.co.nz (Vladimir Kosovac) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 12:40:30 +1300 Subject: DocBook XML rises from the ashes! In-Reply-To: <1164926451.25685.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1164926451.25685.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <456F6BEE.7090609@mkc.co.nz> Paul, I'm in for this. On my part, date and time shouldn't be an issue. If I'm needed, please let me know. Cheers, Vladimir Paul W. Frields wrote: > Hi gang, > > It has become apparent over the last few months that having only a > couple of people with DocBook XML and CVS skills is a bit of a hampering > factor for the Docs Project. This is completely independent of Wiki > use, and whether we have wiki docs or not, we will *always* need some > people with these skills, more than we have right now for sure. I > raised this issue in Tuesday's meeting and wanted to follow up with a > proposal. > > We need at least four volunteers to step up to learn these technologies, > only to the extent needed to accomplish the following goals: > > 1. Understand how to check out document modules from our source code > management (SCM) system -- currently CVS. > > 2. Build documents that are already written and edited, and report > problems fully if unsuccessful. > > 3. Understand how to make changes as directed and commit them to the > SCM. > > 4. Understand how to publish documents to the web site. (Currently this > is fedora.redhat.com/docs, but we will track changes as needed.) > > We need to agree on a way to train in these technologies. I think IRC > meetings would suffice, but we will need to agree on a date and time. > We can use other technologies on an "as needed" basis, such as gobby. > > I can promise people that the training will be virtually painless and > will require *NO prior experience* with any markup language, shell > scripting or programming language, although if you've ever hit "View > Source" in your Firefox browser, that's a plus. (You don't have to > understand what you saw, but the fact that you cared shows a lot of > promise.) :-) > > I can also promise you that anyone can learn this stuff, especially > anyone who already knows how to install and use Fedora. In fact, I > didn't know any of it until I got here in 2003. (And some would > probably say that I only know enough to be dangerous now.) > > Please step up -- we need YOU! > >