From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 1 16:35:21 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:35:21 -0700 Subject: empowering the user and traditional tech writing - style discussion Message-ID: <1157128521.29248.37.camel@erato.phig.org> We need to discuss our writing style approach; I think it's too late for FC6, so we need to stick with what works for now. But Paul W. Frields challenged me with the idea of empowering the user and having a specific style to support that. In traditional tech writing, we try not to use pronouns yet keep an active voice. It makes for a cleaner writing, easier to translate, and has fewer assumptions implied about the reader, which helps to make it more accessible. It also sounds less like marketspeak[1] and cheerleader-writing[2]. For example: "You can click on Applications > Sound & Video > CD Player to start the audio CD application." v. "Click on Applications > Sound & Video > CD Player to start the audio CD application." And so forth. However, a blanket rule to "never use 'you'" might be wrong. At the least, we can discuss here what we want to do. Perhaps we can break some new ground, or at least join the 21st century. ;-D - Karsten [1] Markestpeak == language used in marketing products/services, which is deliberately personal [2] Cheerleader-writing == my term for writing with lots of exclamation points! You'll love it! Or not! But you just can't make it stop! Yes, I used to edit my high school newspaper. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Sep 1 17:30:17 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:30:17 +0100 Subject: empowering the user and traditional tech writing - style discussion In-Reply-To: <1157128521.29248.37.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157128521.29248.37.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <44F86E29.605@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > We need to discuss our writing style approach; I think it's too late for > FC6, so we need to stick with what works for now. But Paul W. Frields > challenged me with the idea of empowering the user and having a specific > style to support that. > > In traditional tech writing, we try not to use pronouns yet keep an > active voice. It makes for a cleaner writing, easier to translate, and > has fewer assumptions implied about the reader, which helps to make it > more accessible. It also sounds less like marketspeak[1] and > cheerleader-writing[2]. > > For example: > > "You can click on Applications > Sound & Video > CD Player to start the > audio CD application." > > v. > > "Click on Applications > Sound & Video > CD Player to start the audio CD > application." > > And so forth. > > However, a blanket rule to "never use 'you'" might be wrong. At the > least, we can discuss here what we want to do. Perhaps we can break > some new ground, or at least join the 21st century. ;-D > > - Karsten > > [1] Markestpeak == language used in marketing products/services, which > is deliberately personal > > [2] Cheerleader-writing == my term for writing with lots of exclamation > points! You'll love it! Or not! But you just can't make it stop! > Yes, I used to edit my high school newspaper. The use of 'you' is even more tricky in some languages (like greek), where the plural 'you' is different and the adjectives/etc change too. For example, translating "Are you sure you want to insert this?" becomes something like: "????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ???????? ????;" = "Are you (singular number exposed) sure (masculine gender exposed) you want (singular) to insert (singular) this?" So, we try to hide it, by using plural form and indirect speech: "??????? ?? ????? ? ???????? ????? ??? ????????????;" = "Surely should this to be inserted?" Of course, this leads to *even more* formal/distant/indirect writing than just avoiding the presence of the word 'you' and even less user-motivation as Karsten mentioned. So, what's my opinion on this? Not sure. Probably something in the middle. The text does seem of better quality and is more accessible. On the other hand, if people don't read it (or it doesn't have an effect), it's useless. One could see two groups of texts here: 1. The guides/tutorials 2. formal, must-be-objective texts, like press releases, encyclopedia articles, short-texts like application buttons). The goals of the guides are to not bore the user (have him read the whole text) and urge him to do something. It's more like giving him a hand than stating things, which is more like the second group. Having a slightly less formal wording in these cases might accomplish their goals in a better way than the formal wording. -dim PS: Please excuse my poor english. If I wasn't clear, I agree with Karsten. ;-) -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From stickster at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 18:03:04 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:03:04 -0400 Subject: empowering the user and traditional tech writing - style discussion In-Reply-To: <1157128521.29248.37.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157128521.29248.37.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1157133785.14912.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 09:35 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > We need to discuss our writing style approach; I think it's too late for > FC6, so we need to stick with what works for now. But Paul W. Frields > challenged me with the idea of empowering the user and having a specific > style to support that. I hope it wasn't an *unwanted* challenge, we have so much to do already! > In traditional tech writing, we try not to use pronouns yet keep an > active voice. It makes for a cleaner writing, easier to translate, and > has fewer assumptions implied about the reader, which helps to make it > more accessible. It also sounds less like marketspeak[1] and > cheerleader-writing[2]. Interestingly, this comes at least warm on the heels of this semi-related post: http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/08/why_marketing_s.html Maybe that's just a *tad* overboard. As Karsten and others who've been around this list a while know, I'm a big fan of the Red Hat official docs. They're well-written, well-organized, and full of juicy content. Plus, they are diligently cross-referenced. They're also fairly devoid of pronoun usage IIRC, and a great primer for anyone getting started in tech writing: If you digest their style, you'll know, for the most part, how to do tech writing that doesn't make your editor want to strangle you with both hands. What I talked to Karsten about was the idea that tone might in fact depend on the audience for a specific work. Many readers, especially rank beginners, might conceivably be put off by the crisp, no-nonsense approach we favor. I'm definitely *not* in favor of turning everything we write into the fourth-grade English one finds in so many one-off Web tutorials. But the DUG -- the context in which this issue arose -- might be just a tad different than our average Guide. This was one of the main reasons I inserted an "Assumptions" section in the introduction. It also goes back to why I was a proponent of the tutorial/guide introduction section, and in particular a similar subsection that addresses the knowledge, skills and abilities the reader must have to successfully understand and put to use the concepts and practices in the tutorial. > However, a blanket rule to "never use 'you'" might be wrong. At the > least, we can discuss here what we want to do. Perhaps we can break > some new ground, or at least join the 21st century. ;-D The rule I've been quietly operating under has been to avoid "you" when possible, but to use "you" when eliminating it would either hurt the meaning of the text, or would break other more important rules. I despise passive voice, so a change Karsten made in the DUG which created passive voice really made me think about this usage. That got me thinking about why the DUG should be a certain way, or not, and made me remember the blog post linked above. That entire blog is very interesting, I think, because it captures the idea that *using technology should be fun*. In fact, the central tenet seems to be "Help the user kick ass." That's a good motto, I think, for something like the DUG. Perhaps it's not so good for more technical guides, which may serve as a primer for people using Linux for very serious purposes, like running a Web server for a business, or safeguarding customer data. Certainly the target audience for the DUG, though, demands a gentler approach. In any case, I hope people will consider the idea, and really look at the assumptions about the people reading, and how the text is addressing them. Thanks for putting up with my ranting comments in the DUG, hope they didn't get on anyone's nerves. :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Sep 1 18:38:30 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 19:38:30 +0100 Subject: PDF version of docs/guides Message-ID: <44F87E26.8030109@glezos.com> The discussion about the writing style and the effect it has reminded me that it would be a good idea to make a PDF format of our guides. People prefer to read tutorials in print. (Especially if it's the installation guide!) Furthermore, I believe that writing documentation with a printable result in mind, probably produces better content. To be honest, if there was a way we could get the desktop guide and probably a troubleshoot guide in PDF, I might jump into translating them, install Fedora for my father at home tomorrow and hand him the guides for the rest. So, suggestions: First fix the PDF-creation problems and having a goal in the back of our minds to create a nice printable PDF with the most useful guides bundled together (installation, desktop, administration, FAQ and Troubleshoot)? Last discussions I found about PDFs are the following: * http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-March/msg00145.html * http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-January/msg00179.html Any thoughts about this? Suggestions, steps, problems, blah? -dim -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Fri Sep 1 18:54:35 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 13:54:35 -0500 Subject: empowering the user and traditional tech writing - style discussion In-Reply-To: <44F86E29.605@glezos.com> References: <1157128521.29248.37.camel@erato.phig.org> <44F86E29.605@glezos.com> Message-ID: <44F881EB.6040806@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dimitris Glezos escribi?: > > The use of 'you' is even more tricky in some languages (like greek), where the > plural 'you' is different and the adjectives/etc change too. For example, > translating "Are you sure you want to insert this?" becomes something like: > > "????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ???????? ????;" > = > "Are you (singular number exposed) sure (masculine gender exposed) you want > (singular) to insert (singular) this?" > > So, we try to hide it, by using plural form and indirect speech: > > "??????? ?? ????? ? ???????? ????? ??? ????????????;" > = > "Surely should this to be inserted?" > > Of course, this leads to *even more* formal/distant/indirect writing than just > avoiding the presence of the word 'you' and even less user-motivation as Karsten > mentioned. It happens something similar in spanish, but thankfully we have a "neutral second person of the singular" pronoun: "Usted", which can even be obviated by the way the verbs are conjugated. Sticking to the example you provided: "Are you sure you want to insert this?" Would translate to something similar to: "Est? seguro de insertar esto?" Or "?Est? seguro de querer insertar esto?" I too, at first was confused with the lack of gender distinguishing in the English language other than by pronoun (i.e there is no way you can determine if a conjugation is masculine or feminine just by the conjugated formula, also applies to adjectives where you require the pronoun), like "seguro", masculine, often neutral form of "sure", also refers to a masculine subject and "segura" feminine, refers only to a feminine subject (so no gender confusion here). I think that the objective for a "neutral" writing style can be achieved in any language, problem is that what will be required is often a good understanding of the original language a piece is written in, to be able to translate. You know that old Italian saying? "Traduttore, traditore" which means "Translator, traitor", because you can't possibly translate vis-a-vis from one language to another, there are simply linguistic forms and formulas that untranslatable across languages, that's when as translator you have to keep to the context and try to express the original punctual linguistic form into a more descriptive one, and vice versa, some languages need too many words to express something where others only require one or two, etc. > > So, what's my opinion on this? Not sure. Probably something in the middle. The > text does seem of better quality and is more accessible. On the other hand, if > people don't read it (or it doesn't have an effect), it's useless. > > One could see two groups of texts here: > > 1. The guides/tutorials > 2. formal, must-be-objective texts, like press releases, encyclopedia > articles, short-texts like application buttons). > > The goals of the guides are to not bore the user (have him read the whole text) > and urge him to do something. It's more like giving him a hand than stating > things, which is more like the second group. Having a slightly less formal > wording in these cases might accomplish their goals in a better way than the > formal wording. > > -dim > > > PS: Please excuse my poor english. If I wasn't clear, I agree with Karsten. ;-) > > Well, I thought that this is why there are "Editors", who will read and provide feedback to the original author(s) and make sure the language and wording are accurate and clear. Not only from a technical perspective, as the Editor does not have to "know as much Linux or about Fedora as the original author", but the job of him is to help the original author to correctly express that which (s)he wants to say, so it could be understood by non technical readers or a broader audience. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE+IHrXM+XOp70dwoRAiV4AJ0QZZyPoIWKTIy55X90+rlELEpjuACfQRvE JJ4cMO4mwVVncgZDVzFFjcs= =ao3H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Fri Sep 1 19:01:44 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:01:44 -0500 Subject: PDF version of docs/guides In-Reply-To: <44F87E26.8030109@glezos.com> References: <44F87E26.8030109@glezos.com> Message-ID: <44F88398.8060409@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dimitris Glezos escribi?: > The discussion about the writing style and the effect it has > reminded me that it would be a good idea to make a PDF format of > our guides. People prefer to read tutorials in print. (Especially > if it's the installation guide!) > > Furthermore, I believe that writing documentation with a printable > result in mind, probably produces better content. To be honest, if > there was a way we could get the desktop guide and probably a > troubleshoot guide in PDF, I might jump into translating them, > install Fedora for my father at home tomorrow and hand him the > guides for the rest. > > So, suggestions: First fix the PDF-creation problems and having a > goal in the back of our minds to create a nice printable PDF with > the most useful guides bundled together (installation, desktop, > administration, FAQ and Troubleshoot)? > > Last discussions I found about PDFs are the following: > > * > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-March/msg00145.html > * > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-January/msg00179.html > > > Any thoughts about this? Suggestions, steps, problems, blah? > > -dim > > > This is a good idea. I was in the process of writing a "basic system administration" using only the system-config* tools and other tools for new users, i.e only those basic concepts to keep the system is "sane". I could write this in English and make it part of the project, however I don't know if there is already something like this in place. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE+IKwXM+XOp70dwoRAlwkAJ94OL8mMw5yKUg32W+1ikSIpO7RLQCdHzYM i0F7chAYQhEtuSVcSpIg5Vg= =6RV5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stickster at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 19:08:44 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 15:08:44 -0400 Subject: PDF version of docs/guides In-Reply-To: <44F88398.8060409@prodigy.net.mx> References: <44F87E26.8030109@glezos.com> <44F88398.8060409@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <1157137724.14912.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 14:01 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > This is a good idea. I was in the process of writing a "basic system > administration" using only the system-config* tools and other tools > for new users, i.e only those basic concepts to keep the system is > "sane". I could write this in English and make it part of the project, > however I don't know if there is already something like this in place. Yes, there is, and we'd love to have your help: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AdministrationGuide -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Sep 3 20:12:40 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:12:40 -0400 Subject: PDF version of docs/guides In-Reply-To: <44F87E26.8030109@glezos.com> References: <44F87E26.8030109@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1157314360.24751.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 19:38 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > So, suggestions: First fix the PDF-creation problems and having a goal in the > back of our minds to create a nice printable PDF with the most useful guides > bundled together (installation, desktop, administration, FAQ and Troubleshoot)? > > Last discussions I found about PDFs are the following: > > * http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-March/msg00145.html > * http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-January/msg00179.html > > Any thoughts about this? Suggestions, steps, problems, blah? It looks like PDF building works somewhat on some docs right now, in that it produces an actual loadable PDF, which looks... well, not great. The stylesheet is apparently terrible, and breaks pages for subsections in weird places. If you want to take up this particular challenge, you sure have my blessing (and good-luck wishes!). I know Apache FOP was a contender but we need it to work using GCJ to consider it seriously, since we need a 100% free tool stack. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From samfw at redhat.com Sun Sep 3 22:07:27 2006 From: samfw at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 18:07:27 -0400 Subject: kexec/kdump how to moved out of drafts Message-ID: <1157321248.13744.0.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> It is now here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC6KdumpKececHowTo If it's OK, can we link to it from here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs Sam -- Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE Red Hat Global Support Services Phone: 919/754-4558 GPG ID: 1B0D46BA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stefan at hoelldampf.net Mon Sep 4 07:07:31 2006 From: stefan at hoelldampf.net (Stefan Hoelldampf) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 09:07:31 +0200 Subject: kexec/kdump how to moved out of drafts In-Reply-To: <1157321248.13744.0.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1157321248.13744.0.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44FBD0B3.7000000@hoelldampf.net> Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC6KdumpKececHowTo ^ Typo? ------------------------------------+ Regards, Stefan From nman64 at n-man.com Mon Sep 4 17:41:24 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:41:24 -0500 Subject: empowering the user and traditional tech writing - style discussion In-Reply-To: <1157128521.29248.37.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157128521.29248.37.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200609041241.28070.nman64@n-man.com> On Friday 01 September 2006 11:35, Karsten Wade wrote: > We need to discuss our writing style approach; I think it's too late for > FC6, so we need to stick with what works for now. But Paul W. Frields > challenged me with the idea of empowering the user and having a specific > style to support that. > > In traditional tech writing, we try not to use pronouns yet keep an > active voice. It makes for a cleaner writing, easier to translate, and > has fewer assumptions implied about the reader, which helps to make it > more accessible. It also sounds less like marketspeak[1] and > cheerleader-writing[2]. > ... > > However, a blanket rule to "never use 'you'" might be wrong. At the > least, we can discuss here what we want to do. Perhaps we can break > some new ground, or at least join the 21st century. ;-D > First, I'd like to point out that I haven't forgotten about the Style Guide, and I fully intend to consider this thread when I resume work on it. I come from the camp of "never use 'you' unless engaging the reader directly" -- an approach that has served me well. As I work on the Style Guide, I intend to make it an example of the best case scenario for technical writing and avoid "you" altogether, but some documents, particularly how-tos and FAQs, will take a slightly different style, where "you" might sometimes be appropriate. Marketing materials, such as banners and flyers, are a whole different ballgame. Their styles are very different from the technical documents but are something we will sometimes tackle. I will try to cover some of the style variations in the Style Guide as it progresses. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Sep 5 09:20:00 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 02:20:00 -0700 Subject: meeting time change Message-ID: <1157448000.15067.52.camel@erato.phig.org> Reminder for steering committee members and FYI to all. The FDSCo meetings have moved to a new time, same day: 17:00 PDT/20:00 EDT/Midnight UTC #fedora-docs This switch is to accommodate active membership. We'll try this out and see if it meets our needs. Thanks to all who make a point of attending or lurking FDSCo meetings. Hope this is not an inconvenience to you. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Sep 5 21:47:46 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 14:47:46 -0700 Subject: DUG into XML status, no trans call for test3 Message-ID: <1157492866.22766.17.camel@erato.phig.org> I made a unilateral decision at the end of last week that we were not going to push for making the DUG available for translation for test3. The main reason is that we want to be sure that what we have written is good for end-users before so much effort is put into translating it. The English phrase for this is, "We want it to be more baked." This also happens to make it easier on me; I haven't had the time to do the conversion to XML. I'm working on that this week. The goal is to be able to announce following test3 there there is a new guide to try, etc. This means a Web-only release for test3, which is much easier to do. Thanks - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 6 00:39:19 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 17:39:19 -0700 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? Message-ID: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> If we move quickly, we can implement a new default Firefox homepage for FC6. Let's make it a surprise! We can only really improve on what we have, so our risk is low. Dimitris -- are you available and interested in leading this? If not, any ideas who might want to do this? I understand we want this: * Simple splash page * Prominent links to useful content - Release notes - Deep link to Overview - Links all languages - Off-site Fedora FAQ - fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ - *Optional* - include locally, riskier - May need Makefile integration, increases risk - Other useful links * ??? If you can do the HTML and the CSS, do or get some help with the graphics, I'm confident we can get this in for FC6. How refreshing to the eye it would be! - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jwilson at redhat.com Wed Sep 6 13:51:14 2006 From: jwilson at redhat.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 09:51:14 -0400 Subject: kexec/kdump how to moved out of drafts In-Reply-To: <44FBD0B3.7000000@hoelldampf.net> References: <1157321248.13744.0.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> <44FBD0B3.7000000@hoelldampf.net> Message-ID: <13660D52-078E-4AA7-A27A-A877EDDBB5F1@redhat.com> On Sep 04, 2006, at 03:07, Stefan Hoelldampf wrote: > Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC6KdumpKececHowTo > ^ > Typo? ------------------------------------+ Yeah, its actually Kexec, not Kecec. The page is in the right place though, just a typo in the email. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC6KdumpKexecHowTo -- Jarod Wilson jwilson at redhat.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From samfw at redhat.com Wed Sep 6 13:56:25 2006 From: samfw at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 09:56:25 -0400 Subject: kexec/kdump how to moved out of drafts In-Reply-To: <13660D52-078E-4AA7-A27A-A877EDDBB5F1@redhat.com> References: <1157321248.13744.0.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> <44FBD0B3.7000000@hoelldampf.net> <13660D52-078E-4AA7-A27A-A877EDDBB5F1@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1157550986.22352.20.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-09-06 at 09:51 -0400, Jarod Wilson wrote: > On Sep 04, 2006, at 03:07, Stefan Hoelldampf wrote: > > > Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > > > >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC6KdumpKececHowTo > > ^ > > Typo? ------------------------------------+ > > Yeah, its actually Kexec, not Kecec. The page is in the right place > though, just a typo in the email. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC6KdumpKexecHowTo > I'm prone to typos, which is bad for someone who is editing documents. In any case, Rahul fixed this for me :) Sam > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Sam Folk-Williams, RHCE Red Hat Global Support Services Phone: 919/754-4558 GPG ID: 1B0D46BA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 6 14:42:26 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 07:42:26 -0700 Subject: FDSCo tasks updated from meeting Message-ID: <1157553746.22766.71.camel@erato.phig.org> IRC log published to fedora-dsco-list, and here is the updated tasks for this week: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/TaskSchedule -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Wed Sep 6 16:55:39 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 17:55:39 +0100 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > If we move quickly, we can implement a new default Firefox homepage for > FC6. > > Let's make it a surprise! We can only really improve on what we have, > so our risk is low. > > Dimitris -- are you available and interested in leading this? If not, > any ideas who might want to do this? Yes, why not? We have a month for this, right? Karsten, can you give me some deadlines? When do we need it ready, how much time to give for testing/feedback/suggestions, etc. If there is no objection to push this for fc6, I'll start working on it from tomorrow night. > I understand we want this: > > * Simple splash page > * Prominent links to useful content > - Release notes > - Deep link to Overview > - Links all languages > - Off-site Fedora FAQ - fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ > - *Optional* - include locally, riskier > - May need Makefile integration, increases risk > - Other useful links > * ??? Good ideas, I'll think about them and either post a more detailed list for discussion or jump directly into the action. > If you can do the HTML and the CSS, do or get some help with the > graphics, I'm confident we can get this in for FC6. How refreshing to > the eye it would be! Yup, I can do the HTML/CSS. It will be based on the first mock-up I did: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DimitrisGlezos/SystemHomepage Improvements will be based on the comments from Rahul in the thread then [1] and from Karsten above. -dim [1]: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-July/thread.html#00151 [2]: http://people.redhat.com/dfong/fc6graphics/ -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From dimitris at glezos.com Wed Sep 6 18:05:14 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 19:05:14 +0100 Subject: DUG into XML status, no trans call for test3 In-Reply-To: <1157492866.22766.17.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157492866.22766.17.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <44FF0DDA.8050204@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > I made a unilateral decision at the end of last week that we were not > going to push for making the DUG available for translation for test3. > > The main reason is that we want to be sure that what we have written is > good for end-users before so much effort is put into translating it. > The English phrase for this is, "We want it to be more baked." Good decision. Usually translators work on multiple projects (their distro, their desktop, other favorite programs) and on a number of subprojects of each. Seeing a 100% translated document receive an overhaul often is probably not the best thing for them and hence, not for the project either. This is one of the reasons I believe we should push the beat writers a bit more to have their content not just filled in, but have it as ready as possible by test3 or even test2. It's better to have strings not changing all the time and large amounts of strings not filled in at the last minute. -dim > > This also happens to make it easier on me; I haven't had the time to do > the conversion to XML. I'm working on that this week. The goal is to > be able to announce following test3 there there is a new guide to try, > etc. This means a Web-only release for test3, which is much easier to > do. > > Thanks - Karsten > -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From noriko at redhat.com Thu Sep 7 03:34:06 2006 From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:34:06 +1000 Subject: Can someone add the link? Message-ID: <44FF932E.4030906@redhat.com> Hi Is anyone who can add the link of "Translation Quick Start Guide" into Translation Project page? It would be nice if the link can be found at here http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/ too. cheers noriko From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 7 07:51:16 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:51:16 -0700 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-09-06 at 17:55 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > > If we move quickly, we can implement a new default Firefox homepage for > > FC6. > > > > Let's make it a surprise! We can only really improve on what we have, > > so our risk is low. > > > > Dimitris -- are you available and interested in leading this? If not, > > any ideas who might want to do this? > > Yes, why not? We have a month for this, right? > > Karsten, can you give me some deadlines? When do we need it ready, how much time > to give for testing/feedback/suggestions, etc. How do these look: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#splash-page-schedule We need to decide by this weekend what the changes are going to be, mainly so we can get ahead on what has to move around in the fedora-release-notes package. > If there is no objection to push this for fc6, I'll start working on it from > tomorrow night. You've got the right idea, let's do it. I put up the ideas and such that I gathered here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FirefoxDefaultSplash Feel free to use that for idea tracking and etc. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 7 08:27:31 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 01:27:31 -0700 Subject: Can someone add the link? In-Reply-To: <44FF932E.4030906@redhat.com> References: <44FF932E.4030906@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1157617651.7220.153.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 13:34 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > Hi > > Is anyone who can add the link of "Translation Quick Start Guide" into > Translation Project page? > It would be nice if the link can be found at here > http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/ too. I put up a link on this page, but what other Translation Project page were you thinking about? http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/ - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fitzsim at redhat.com Thu Sep 7 14:37:20 2006 From: fitzsim at redhat.com (Thomas Fitzsimmons) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 10:37:20 -0400 Subject: [fedora-java] FOP, gcj, classpath, oh my! In-Reply-To: <1157503697.22766.53.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157503697.22766.53.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <45002EA0.3090907@redhat.com> Hi Karsten! Karsten Wade wrote: > Can someone give fedora-docs-list an update about our ability to put out > a 100% free, gcj-compiled DocBook toolchain? I've been meaning to test this against Rawhide but haven't got to it yet. When I do, I'll report the status here. (I have a feeling there will have been improvements because of the Java2D work in GNU Classpath). Tom From thomas.canniot at laposte.net Thu Sep 7 15:19:19 2006 From: thomas.canniot at laposte.net (Thomas Canniot) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 17:19:19 +0200 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1157642359.2838.51.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> Le mardi 05 septembre 2006 ? 17:39 -0700, Karsten Wade a ?crit : > If we move quickly, we can implement a new default Firefox homepage for > FC6. What about translating this futur homepage ? Will it be possible before FC6 release ? Thanks T From dimitris at glezos.com Thu Sep 7 15:44:14 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:44:14 +0100 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1157642359.2838.51.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <1157642359.2838.51.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> Message-ID: <45003E4E.6090003@glezos.com> O/H Thomas Canniot ??????: > Le mardi 05 septembre 2006 ? 17:39 -0700, Karsten Wade a ?crit : >> If we move quickly, we can implement a new default Firefox homepage for >> FC6. > > What about translating this futur homepage ? Will it be possible before > FC6 release ? Is is important to have this page localized. There is time for it and also the amount of the text will be pretty small. Karsten, could you please update the schedule to show the days the translation will take place? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#splash-page-schedule Cheers, -dim > Thanks > > T > > -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 7 19:53:54 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 12:53:54 -0700 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <45003E4E.6090003@glezos.com> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <1157642359.2838.51.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> <45003E4E.6090003@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1157658834.7220.218.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 16:44 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > O/H Thomas Canniot ??????: > > Le mardi 05 septembre 2006 ? 17:39 -0700, Karsten Wade a ?crit : > >> If we move quickly, we can implement a new default Firefox homepage for > >> FC6. > > > > What about translating this futur homepage ? Will it be possible before > > FC6 release ? > > Is is important to have this page localized. There is time for it and also the > amount of the text will be pretty small. I don't see how we're going to get a PO file out of that ... unless, well ... if it's XHTML, can we do XHTML -> XML -> XHTML. > Karsten, could you please update the schedule to show the days the translation > will take place? > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#splash-page-schedule We've been using one week per document as the standard. Can we compress that time for this effort? How much time should we give? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Sep 7 23:43:05 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 19:43:05 -0400 Subject: Install Guide POT Message-ID: <1157672585.22696.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> I managed to send the wrong (that is, non-updated) POT to Translation for the Install Guide. Is there any reason I can't send them a newer one and push this back, say, 5-7 days? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Sep 8 01:46:01 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 02:46:01 +0100 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > On Wed, 2006-09-06 at 17:55 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> If there is no objection to push this for fc6, I'll start working on it from >> tomorrow night. > > You've got the right idea, let's do it. Okey, it "tomorrow night". Here's a first version of the HTML/CSS: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DimitrisGlezos/SystemHomepage?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fc6-browser-splash-v01.tar.gz Took the HTML/CSS from the release notes. Haven't check validity etc, just quick coding to have something to show up in a browser. Comments? -dim -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From thomas.canniot at laposte.net Fri Sep 8 07:02:07 2006 From: thomas.canniot at laposte.net (Thomas Canniot) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 09:02:07 +0200 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1157698927.3060.5.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> Le vendredi 08 septembre 2006 ? 02:46 +0100, Dimitris Glezos a ?crit : > O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > > On Wed, 2006-09-06 at 17:55 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > >> If there is no objection to push this for fc6, I'll start working on it from > >> tomorrow night. > > > > You've got the right idea, let's do it. > > Okey, it "tomorrow night". Here's a first version of the HTML/CSS: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DimitrisGlezos/SystemHomepage?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fc6-browser-splash-v01.tar.gz > > Took the HTML/CSS from the release notes. Haven't check validity etc, > just quick coding to have something to show up in a browser. > > Comments? > You forgot French Relnotes :) > -dim > > > -- > Dimitris Glezos > Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B > http://dimitris.glezos.com/ > > "He who gives up functionality for ease of use > loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) > -- > -- Thomas Canniot http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasCanniot From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 8 07:33:56 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:03:56 +0530 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> Message-ID: <45011CE4.1000203@fedoraproject.org> Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > Okey, it "tomorrow night". Here's a first version of the HTML/CSS: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DimitrisGlezos/SystemHomepage?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fc6-browser-splash-v01.tar.gz > > > Took the HTML/CSS from the release notes. Haven't check validity etc, > just quick coding to have something to show up in a browser. > > Comments? > > -dim > The colors are subtle and pleasing. I like the overall design. However the Fedora wordmark and logo on top left seems to be blurred. I am not sure whether that matches our guidelines at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Logo/UsageGuidelines. Check with our artwork team on this and the overall design either at fedora-artwork list or on #fedora-art. The wording on top is ""If this is the first time you run Fedora Core 6, a warm, warm welcome". I would want to welcome the second timers too ;-). Might just say "Welcome to Fedora" instead. Should it be called "Fedora system homepage" on the right top? I am not sure the word "system" translates well. We decided not to use the Echo icon set for FC6 and will retain the bluecurve one. Make sure the icons used on the webpage matches the default desktop. Fedora Core release notes should probably have a link to the web only latest version. Since we have it as a separate package we can still push updates to the users directly now so this might not be applicable anymore. Under other resources, the link should be called "Fedora Project" and the url has a typo. Fedora People should say Planet Fedora and link to http://planet.fedoraproject.org. The wording might match http://www.redhat.com/fedora/ and hint that the link leads to a set of blogs. The set of community websites links are explicit urls while the links above them are not. Lets be consistent here. FedoraNEWS.org might say Fedora News instead for example. It is less glaring though the official website has that. I am not sure the link to the wiki will stick if the CMS changes. Also "weekly newsletter" sounds better than "Weekly news Issue". Note the capitalization differences. Copying Thomas Chung for comments. Fedora forum link should say "formally endorsed" instead of "official". We avoid calling anything official in Fedora as a differentiator. Can the disclaimer be worded better to sound less throw away? Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Fri Sep 8 15:41:05 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 11:41:05 -0400 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1157730065.4775.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-09-08 at 02:46 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > > On Wed, 2006-09-06 at 17:55 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > >> If there is no objection to push this for fc6, I'll start working on it from > >> tomorrow night. > > > > You've got the right idea, let's do it. > > Okey, it "tomorrow night". Here's a first version of the HTML/CSS: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DimitrisGlezos/SystemHomepage?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fc6-browser-splash-v01.tar.gz > > Took the HTML/CSS from the release notes. Haven't check validity etc, > just quick coding to have something to show up in a browser. > > Comments? Looks like we may have to do this in DocBook to get translation done in a timely manner. If you're not into DocBook XML, I can probably write it quickly from your mockup. Before we can build, though, I need to figure out how exactly we're going to derive the @class attribute for the elements from a DocBook XML attribute. The first thing that comes to mind is XSL, but I want to see if I've overlooked a built-in method first. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Sep 8 17:21:12 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:21:12 -0400 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1157730065.4775.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> <1157730065.4775.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1157736072.4775.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-09-08 at 11:41 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, 2006-09-08 at 02:46 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > > > On Wed, 2006-09-06 at 17:55 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > >> If there is no objection to push this for fc6, I'll start working on it from > > >> tomorrow night. > > > > > > You've got the right idea, let's do it. > > > > Okey, it "tomorrow night". Here's a first version of the HTML/CSS: > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DimitrisGlezos/SystemHomepage?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fc6-browser-splash-v01.tar.gz > > > > Took the HTML/CSS from the release notes. Haven't check validity etc, > > just quick coding to have something to show up in a browser. > > > > Comments? > > Looks like we may have to do this in DocBook to get translation done in > a timely manner. If you're not into DocBook XML, I can probably write > it quickly from your mockup. Before we can build, though, I need to > figure out how exactly we're going to derive the @class attribute for > the elements from a DocBook XML attribute. The first thing that > comes to mind is XSL, but I want to see if I've overlooked a built-in > method first. Replying to myself to close a couple loops. 1. DOING IT IN DOCBOOK XML: Was possible, and I figured out the technical details for how to provide arbitrary @class attributes for some elements. This would allow translation of the index page in several languages. However... 2. TRANSLATION OF HTML: How would we get the right HTML page to come up in the user's browser? Is there some META magic that allows autorefreshing with a page in a different language? And can that language be derived from the browser environment? 3. REARRANGING: In any case, to accomplish #2, the fedora-release-notes package would have to be rearranged from its current state. This is a problem of relative links and not wanting to have some very ugly hack to turn those links into translatable content. It's much preferable to have an automatic engine that simply puts everything from one language together, and then the links would point to the same target in every locale, that being "./MYDOC.html". This kind of rearranging isn't going to happen this close to release. Let's look at improving the situation post-FC6. For now, Dimitris, go ahead and keep working on the page as static HTML content. If/when you're done with your part and ready to have it edited and polished, send it to the list. I'll import it into the release-notes module and do the necessary packaging to make it work in the Rawhide tree. If we hurry with this, we might even make it into test3, I'm told. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Sep 8 17:32:41 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:32:41 +0100 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1157730065.4775.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> <1157730065.4775.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4501A939.5040002@glezos.com> O/H Paul W. Frields ??????: > On Fri, 2006-09-08 at 02:46 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: >>> On Wed, 2006-09-06 at 17:55 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: >>>> If there is no objection to push this for fc6, I'll start working on it from >>>> tomorrow night. >>> You've got the right idea, let's do it. >> Okey, it "tomorrow night". Here's a first version of the HTML/CSS: >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DimitrisGlezos/SystemHomepage?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fc6-browser-splash-v01.tar.gz >> >> Took the HTML/CSS from the release notes. Haven't check validity etc, >> just quick coding to have something to show up in a browser. >> >> Comments? > > Looks like we may have to do this in DocBook to get translation done in > a timely manner. If you're not into DocBook XML, I can probably write > it quickly from your mockup. Before we can build, though, I need to > figure out how exactly we're going to derive the @class attribute for > the elements from a DocBook XML attribute. The first thing that > comes to mind is XSL, but I want to see if I've overlooked a built-in > method first. Paul, the particular class attribute is not important. We can make it work with a CSS selector like the following and eliminate the hard-coding of "class" attributes: div.article a[href^="http:"] { background: url('images/external-link.png') right center no-repeat; padding-right: 12px; } A lot of the code is likely to change, especially if it is something that causes us problems (like this one), so I suggest we don't lose time in such issues right now. So, can you set up the docbook *base* for this doc? It will probably take you less time than it will take you to clean the mess if I tried to set the files up. :) If yes, don't engage with details, just the base. -dim -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From noriko at redhat.com Mon Sep 11 00:22:38 2006 From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:22:38 +1000 Subject: Can someone add the link? In-Reply-To: <1157617651.7220.153.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <44FF932E.4030906@redhat.com> <1157617651.7220.153.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4504AC4E.4040804@redhat.com> Hi Karsten Sorry reply late, I lost your mail once and got it back now. http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/, this is the page and only the page I wanted to see the link. Now I can see the link, thank you very much. but... the link does not work for me :( It says '404: Page not found'. noriko Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 13:34 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > >>Hi >> >>Is anyone who can add the link of "Translation Quick Start Guide" into >>Translation Project page? >>It would be nice if the link can be found at here >>http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/ too. > > > I put up a link on this page, but what other Translation Project page > were you thinking about? > > http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/ > > - Karsten > From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Sep 11 05:55:30 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:25:30 +0530 Subject: Fedora Project is part of Fedora Project! Message-ID: <4504FA52.8030000@fedoraproject.org> Hi $subject is what About Fedora says. It used to say "Fedora Core is part of Fedora Project" originally. Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Mon Sep 11 07:04:04 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 00:04:04 -0700 Subject: Fedora Project is part of Fedora Project! In-Reply-To: <4504FA52.8030000@fedoraproject.org> References: <4504FA52.8030000@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1157958244.31449.254.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-09-11 at 11:25 +0530, Rahul wrote: > Hi > > $subject is what About Fedora says. It used to say "Fedora Core is part > of Fedora Project" originally. Fixed in CVS, thanks for the catch. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Sep 11 14:13:47 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 07:13:47 -0700 Subject: Can someone add the link? In-Reply-To: <4504AC4E.4040804@redhat.com> References: <44FF932E.4030906@redhat.com> <1157617651.7220.153.camel@erato.phig.org> <4504AC4E.4040804@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1157984027.31449.264.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-09-11 at 10:22 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > Hi Karsten > > Sorry reply late, I lost your mail once and got it back now. > http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/, this is the page > and only the page I wanted to see the link. > Now I can see the link, thank you very much. > > but... the link does not work for me :( > It says '404: Page not found'. /me smacks his head Yeah, change checked in but forgot to do ... cvs tag -F LIVE index.php It's live now. :) > noriko > > > Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 13:34 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > > > >>Hi > >> > >>Is anyone who can add the link of "Translation Quick Start Guide" into > >>Translation Project page? > >>It would be nice if the link can be found at here > >>http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/ too. > > > > > > I put up a link on this page, but what other Translation Project page > > were you thinking about? > > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/ > > > > - Karsten > > -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From noriko at redhat.com Mon Sep 11 23:01:49 2006 From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:01:49 +1000 Subject: Can someone add the link? In-Reply-To: <1157984027.31449.264.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <44FF932E.4030906@redhat.com> <1157617651.7220.153.camel@erato.phig.org> <4504AC4E.4040804@redhat.com> <1157984027.31449.264.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4505EADD.6060507@redhat.com> confirmed, thank you so much again! Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2006-09-11 at 10:22 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > >>Hi Karsten >> >>Sorry reply late, I lost your mail once and got it back now. >>http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/, this is the page >>and only the page I wanted to see the link. >>Now I can see the link, thank you very much. >> >>but... the link does not work for me :( >>It says '404: Page not found'. > > > /me smacks his head > > Yeah, change checked in but forgot to do ... > > cvs tag -F LIVE index.php > > It's live now. :) > > >>noriko >> >> >>Karsten Wade wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 13:34 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Hi >>>> >>>>Is anyone who can add the link of "Translation Quick Start Guide" into >>>>Translation Project page? >>>>It would be nice if the link can be found at here >>>>http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/ too. >>> >>> >>>I put up a link on this page, but what other Translation Project page >>>were you thinking about? >>> >>>http://fedora.redhat.com/About/Projects/translations/ >>> >>>- Karsten >>> From dimitris at glezos.com Tue Sep 12 15:53:46 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:53:46 +0100 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1157736072.4775.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> <1157730065.4775.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1157736072.4775.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4506D80A.1060408@glezos.com> O/H Paul W. Frields ??????: > > 1. DOING IT IN DOCBOOK XML: > > Was possible, and I figured out the technical details for how to provide > arbitrary @class attributes for some elements. This would allow > translation of the index page in several languages. However... > > 2. TRANSLATION OF HTML: > > How would we get the right HTML page to come up in the user's browser? > Is there some META magic that allows autorefreshing with a page in a > different language? And can that language be derived from the browser > environment? We could make this distinction/check at the time the RPM gets installed, but, this shouldn't be a system-wide setting. On the other hand, it seems that Javascript provides a way to do this: http://builder.com.com/5100-6371-5069931.html So, we can get it by calling `navigator.language`, which yields "en_US". Konqueror supports this property too. There are some other properties (put up by IE, browserLanguage, userLanguage, systemLanguage). You can check if your favourite browser supports the `.language` property at the bottom of: http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/tutorials/jsexamples/sniffer.html So, I guess we could just write a few lines of Javacript in `splash.html` and redirect to the correct page, like: `splash-en_US.html`, etc. > 3. REARRANGING: > > In any case, to accomplish #2, the fedora-release-notes package would > have to be rearranged from its current state. This is a problem of > relative links and not wanting to have some very ugly hack to turn those > links into translatable content. It's much preferable to have an > automatic engine that simply puts everything from one language together, > and then the links would point to the same target in every locale, that > being "./MYDOC.html". This kind of rearranging isn't going to happen > this close to release. I didn't understand exactly what the problem is with what links, but anyway. We could leave the release notes intact and just add `splash.html` as the default homepage, right? > Let's look at improving the situation post-FC6. > > For now, Dimitris, go ahead and keep working on the page as static HTML > content. If/when you're done with your part and ready to have it edited > and polished, send it to the list. I guess my work is almost over, I just need to put in some changes Rahul et al proposed and polish the HTML and CSS. I'll probably do these tonight. -dim > I'll import it into the > release-notes module and do the necessary packaging to make it work in > the Rawhide tree. If we hurry with this, we might even make it into > test3, I'm told. -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 13 00:09:15 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:09:15 -0700 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1157658834.7220.218.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <1157642359.2838.51.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> <45003E4E.6090003@glezos.com> <1157658834.7220.218.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1158106155.20991.10.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 12:53 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 16:44 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > Karsten, could you please update the schedule to show the days the translation > > will take place? > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#splash-page-schedule I updated this assuming a week bump for FC6, based on the current status of test3 and me pulling this assumption out of my nether regions. I.e., this is guesswork until confirmed. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Wed Sep 13 01:02:15 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 02:02:15 +0100 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1157736072.4775.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> <1157730065.4775.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1157736072.4775.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45075897.1050006@glezos.com> O/H Paul W. Frields ??????: > For now, Dimitris, go ahead and keep working on the page as static HTML > content. If/when you're done with your part and ready to have it edited > and polished, send it to the list. Okey, I just done v03 (v02 skipped). You can view it live here: http://dimitris.glezos.com/box/foss/fc6-browser-splash/ ## Changes since v01: * Adopted the suggestions some people made (Karsten, Rahul, etc.) * Restructured HTML code, simpler and more modular to allow full CSS control. Passed it through `tidy` too. * Page is now XHTML 1.0 Strict and follows Web Content Accessibility Guidelines: Reaches "AAA" conformance (except 1 little spot). Hopefully, DocBook will not completely break this. ## Open issues * Implement the javascript language-checking algorithm and give the user the document in his language. Fallback to english if inexistent. * Just before the release, we need to change the "Other languages" for each doc with the languages that will be included in the package. * Artwork team did not respond yet for changing the header etc. If we are leaving the header like this, I need a higher resolution logo to replace this blurred, resized one. ## Questions * Change the "Fedora system homepage" text? Rahul wonders if "system" translates well. If yes, please give suggestions. I tried to eliminate "Core". * Change the icons from Echo to Bluecurve? I think this is unnecessary, because they are small in size and future-compatible ;-) * Should the language names be localized and not in english? * Are we going to have a local copy of the Installation Guide as well? * Rahul: Can the disclaimer be worded better to sound less throw away? * Are the links to "Other languages" really necessary? -dim > I'll import it into the > release-notes module and do the necessary packaging to make it work in > the Rawhide tree. If we hurry with this, we might even make it into > test3, I'm told. -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Sep 13 04:59:52 2006 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:59:52 -0700 Subject: Adaptive index.html for Release Notes Message-ID: <20060912215952.0fbaa47d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> I've made a first cut at a auto-adapting index.html page for the release notes. Find it at: http://www.megacoder.com/files/fdsco/renotes-index.html Let me know what you think. It could be auto generated by the Makefile without too much trouble. Cheers -- I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have every intention of dying an abuse! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 13 18:12:46 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:12:46 -0700 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1158106155.20991.10.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <1157642359.2838.51.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> <45003E4E.6090003@glezos.com> <1157658834.7220.218.camel@erato.phig.org> <1158106155.20991.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1158171166.20991.63.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-09-12 at 17:09 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 12:53 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 16:44 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > > > Karsten, could you please update the schedule to show the days the translation > > > will take place? > > > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#splash-page-schedule > > I updated this assuming a week bump for FC6, based on the current status > of test3 and me pulling this assumption out of my nether regions. I.e., > this is guesswork until confirmed. No slippage for FC6, so I rolled the schedule back a bit. We are already ahead in terms of reviewing an early version, but we need to get moving on any changes to fedora-release-notes and doing this in XML plus the XSL. Or we decide to do a static HTML page in en_US that has localized links to individual languages. 09 Sep. Finish agreed scope using fedora-docs-list 11 Sep. Confirm changes to fedora-release-notes package 15 Sep. First review version due (beta) 17 Sep. Second review version due (beta2) 18 Sep. Finalize fedora-release-notes changes 20 Sep. Final review version (RC) 23 Sep. POT available for translations, sent to i18n.r.c 30 Sep. Translations due back 01 Oct. Splash changes due for ISO 02 Oct. Final ISO spin 09 Oct. FC6 release - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 13 18:19:14 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:19:14 -0700 Subject: DUG into XML status, no trans call for test3 In-Reply-To: <1157492866.22766.17.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157492866.22766.17.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1158171556.20991.71.camel@erato.phig.org> Another update after yesterday's FDSCo meeting: We're going to go live with the DUG from the Docs/Drafts/ location. I think we need wider exposure in the draft stage, and we'll get 10x the contributions on the Wiki side. We'll still do an announcement about it, etc., but it is not going to change into XML for the release. This gives us every single day up to release to make it better. :) Then, after FC6 release, there will be more time amongst this team to help get it in better shape, and more community exposure. We can then follow up with conversion to XML, translations, and packaging into Fedora Extras. 'yum install fedora-desktop-user-guide' Yummy! From all viewpoints this is still a 'win'; we've done a good job getting a good guide out to the world; only us XML geeks are that it is not converted; and the translators will be happier that we don't ask them to translate something that is likely to change drastically after initial release. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 13 18:43:09 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:43:09 -0700 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <45075897.1050006@glezos.com> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> <1157730065.4775.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1157736072.4775.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45075897.1050006@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1158172989.20991.85.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-09-13 at 02:02 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > O/H Paul W. Frields ??????: > > For now, Dimitris, go ahead and keep working on the page as static HTML > > content. If/when you're done with your part and ready to have it edited > > and polished, send it to the list. > > Okey, I just done v03 (v02 skipped). You can view it live here: > > http://dimitris.glezos.com/box/foss/fc6-browser-splash/ Sweet. :) One tweak, on the HREF for the DUG. We're going to go live with the Wiki version in Docs/Drafts instead of trying to move it out. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide Here are some quick language edits, as a patch to the HTML currently posted (18:30 UTC 13 Sep.): http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KarstenWade/Patches?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=FedoraSystemHomepagePatch1 > ## Open issues > > * Implement the javascript language-checking algorithm and give the > user the document in his language. Fallback to english if inexistent. Did you look at what Tommy sent last night? Seemed to work. > * Just before the release, we need to change the "Other languages" > for each doc with the languages that will be included in the package. > > * Artwork team did not respond yet for changing the header etc. If we > are leaving the header like this, I need a higher resolution logo to > replace this blurred, resized one. Try #fedora-art, let me know if you don't get a timely response. Timely means, by tomorrow. :) > ## Questions > > * Change the "Fedora system homepage" text? Rahul wonders if "system" > translates well. If yes, please give suggestions. I tried to eliminate > "Core". To me, 'system' is less personable. So, we need something friendly that makes sense when translated. Here are some ideas, let's iterate: Your Fedora Home Page Fedora Default Homepage Fedora Home Fedora Local Home Home on Fedora Fedora Start Page > * Change the icons from Echo to Bluecurve? I think this is > unnecessary, because they are small in size and future-compatible ;-) Is Echo going to come out for FC6 later? I don't know about this one ... despite the coolness, it does help the user experience to have consistent icons. 'Course, Bluecurve is inconsistent anyway, so this could just be more of that same ... > * Should the language names be localized and not in english? Esp. if we cannot easily make the page auto-shift to the right language, this could be very nice. > * Are we going to have a local copy of the Installation Guide as well? No, there is no package for it yet, in Core or Extras. We should move to get it into Extras; maybe we can even link out to it and include a quick "Or install it locally with Pirut or 'yum install fedora-install-guide'." > * Rahul: Can the disclaimer be worded better to sound less throw away? I shortened it a bit. It might be that we want to make the note class more visible? > * Are the links to "Other languages" really necessary? I like it, where we have them. It is an elegant fall-back if the JS doesn't auto-detect the local language. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 13 18:43:51 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:43:51 -0700 Subject: Adaptive index.html for Release Notes In-Reply-To: <20060912215952.0fbaa47d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20060912215952.0fbaa47d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1158173031.20991.87.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-09-12 at 21:59 -0700, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > I've made a first cut at a auto-adapting index.html page for the > release notes. Find it at: > > http://www.megacoder.com/files/fdsco/renotes-index.html > > Let me know what you think. It could be auto generated by the > Makefile without too much trouble. WORKSFORME -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Sep 13 18:56:16 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:56:16 -0400 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1158172989.20991.85.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> <1157730065.4775.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1157736072.4775.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45075897.1050006@glezos.com> <1158172989.20991.85.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1158173776.13917.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-09-13 at 11:43 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2006-09-13 at 02:02 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > O/H Paul W. Frields ??????: > > > For now, Dimitris, go ahead and keep working on the page as static HTML > > > content. If/when you're done with your part and ready to have it edited > > > and polished, send it to the list. > > > > Okey, I just done v03 (v02 skipped). You can view it live here: > > > > http://dimitris.glezos.com/box/foss/fc6-browser-splash/ [...snip...] > > * Change the "Fedora system homepage" text? Rahul wonders if "system" > > translates well. If yes, please give suggestions. I tried to eliminate > > "Core". > > To me, 'system' is less personable. So, we need something friendly that > makes sense when translated. Here are some ideas, let's iterate: > > Your Fedora Home Page > Fedora Default Homepage > Fedora Home > Fedora Local Home > Home on Fedora > Fedora Start Page I like the idea of reversing the positions of the logo and the text, and simply making the top header say, "Welcome to Fedora Core 6!". > > * Change the icons from Echo to Bluecurve? I think this is > > unnecessary, because they are small in size and future-compatible ;-) > > Is Echo going to come out for FC6 later? If it does it will be a non-default add-on. Target right now is FC7. > I don't know about this one ... despite the coolness, it does help the > user experience to have consistent icons. 'Course, Bluecurve is > inconsistent anyway, so this could just be more of that same ... Bluecurve +1 for now. > > * Should the language names be localized and not in english? > > Esp. if we cannot easily make the page auto-shift to the right language, > this could be very nice. +1 > > * Are we going to have a local copy of the Installation Guide as well? > > No, there is no package for it yet, in Core or Extras. We should move > to get it into Extras; maybe we can even link out to it and include a > quick "Or install it locally with Pirut or 'yum install > fedora-install-guide'." It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, would it? I.e., "Read the guide on how to install the system you just installed"? > > * Rahul: Can the disclaimer be worded better to sound less throw away? > > I shortened it a bit. It might be that we want to make the note class > more visible? > > > * Are the links to "Other languages" really necessary? > > I like it, where we have them. It is an elegant fall-back if the JS > doesn't auto-detect the local language. Yes! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Wed Sep 13 20:04:32 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:04:32 +0100 Subject: Adaptive index.html for Release Notes In-Reply-To: <20060912215952.0fbaa47d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20060912215952.0fbaa47d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <45086450.7070709@glezos.com> O/H Tommy Reynolds ??????: > I've made a first cut at a auto-adapting index.html page for the > release notes. Find it at: > > http://www.megacoder.com/files/fdsco/renotes-index.html > > Let me know what you think. It could be auto generated by the > Makefile without too much trouble. The script works here too. Kind of. Actually, it doesn't. :) Firefox seems to ignore the environment variable `LANG` completely when returning the UserAgent string. So, even though it does show localized messages, the above script returns "en" as the language. I tried downloading a mozilla-localized version from [1], and that seems to ignore the env variable too. Unless I am doing something completely wrong, it seems our solution does not work in Firefox. Konqueror does it correclty: If you start it with a different `LANG` env var, the messages are localized and the above script works too. -dim [1]: http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/all.html -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Sep 13 21:01:49 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 02:31:49 +0530 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <45075897.1050006@glezos.com> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> <1157730065.4775.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1157736072.4775.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45075897.1050006@glezos.com> Message-ID: <450871BD.8010502@fedoraproject.org> Dimitris Glezos wrote: > O/H Paul W. Frields ??????: >> For now, Dimitris, go ahead and keep working on the page as static HTML >> content. If/when you're done with your part and ready to have it edited >> and polished, send it to the list. > > Okey, I just done v03 (v02 skipped). You can view it live here: > > http://dimitris.glezos.com/box/foss/fc6-browser-splash/ > I think we can drop the link to the unofficial FAQ and Fedora Unity websites. The other two are endorsed websites. Having two FAQ's might be confusing. Firefox browser bookmark leads to a list of community websites and the unofficial FAQ is linked from other places. Comments welcome. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Wed Sep 13 21:57:32 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:57:32 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Beats/Extras" by DavidWoodhouse] Message-ID: <1158184652.16952.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Not sure how we want to treat this... The Release Notes are explicitly about Fedora Core, and not Extras. This seems like a somewhat useful note about Exim -- which is not in Core -- but I don't think the Release Notes are the right place for it. I would rather see this kept on the wiki under the Extras/ namespace, say in Extras/News/* or Extras/Notes/*, and simply reference that collection from Docs/Beats/Extras. What thoughts do other list members have? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: fedorawiki-noreply at fedoraproject.org Subject: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Beats/Extras" by DavidWoodhouse Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:33:55 -0000 Size: 3197 URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Sep 13 22:29:10 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 03:59:10 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Beats/Extras" by DavidWoodhouse] In-Reply-To: <1158184652.16952.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1158184652.16952.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45088636.5010806@fedoraproject.org> Paul W. Frields wrote: > Not sure how we want to treat this... The Release Notes are explicitly > about Fedora Core, and not Extras. This seems like a somewhat useful > note about Exim -- which is not in Core -- but I don't think the Release > Notes are the right place for it. I would rather see this kept on the > wiki under the Extras/ namespace, say in Extras/News/* or > Extras/Notes/*, and simply reference that collection from > Docs/Beats/Extras. What thoughts do other list members have? > There a number of major and useful software components that is in Fedora Extras for one reason or the other and for such packages it is useful for end users to know what things to cross check or expect after an upgrade. It doesnt matter that it isnt released as such. We cant really expect users to frequently check obscure sources like Extras/News for more important information. We have it at a lower section in a order of importance and I think it should stay. Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 14 13:22:46 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 06:22:46 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Beats/Extras" by DavidWoodhouse] In-Reply-To: <1158184652.16952.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1158184652.16952.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1158240166.28082.15.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-09-13 at 17:57 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Not sure how we want to treat this... The Release Notes are explicitly > about Fedora Core, and not Extras. Perhaps we want to rethink that. Since we tout that "with Yum in Anaconda, it is all the same now," we might have to treat the relnotes the same way. I know that, by being on the system and all that, there is an implicit connection between relnotes and installed system, but with the lines blurring in the installation side, we need to consider how to deal with it on the notes side. One advantage of actually have the Docs/Beats/Extras section is that any number of new pages could be added in that namespace. We then get a bunch of organized, useful, Extras release notes. Personally, I'm curious to see where this takes us. I was surprised at the attention of Extras in the notes, and am curious what would happen if we encourage Extras maintainers to use The Release Notes as their release notes, too. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Thu Sep 14 13:44:36 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:44:36 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Beats/Extras" by DavidWoodhouse] In-Reply-To: <1158240166.28082.15.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1158184652.16952.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1158240166.28082.15.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <45095CC4.50107@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > On Wed, 2006-09-13 at 17:57 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> Not sure how we want to treat this... The Release Notes are explicitly >> about Fedora Core, and not Extras. > > Perhaps we want to rethink that. Since we tout that "with Yum in > Anaconda, it is all the same now," we might have to treat the relnotes > the same way. I know that, by being on the system and all that, there > is an implicit connection between relnotes and installed system, but > with the lines blurring in the installation side, we need to consider > how to deal with it on the notes side. +1. I had similar concerns for the Browser splash page text. > One advantage of actually have the Docs/Beats/Extras section is that any > number of new pages could be added in that namespace. We then get a > bunch of organized, useful, Extras release notes. > > Personally, I'm curious to see where this takes us. I was surprised at > the attention of Extras in the notes, and am curious what would happen > if we encourage Extras maintainers to use The Release Notes as their > release notes, too. Some probably off-topic thoughts, worth mentioning follow. I think that the first thing we should do after FC6 is to think about if we need to reorganize our docs. Yesterday a friend upgraded from FC2 and couldn't start the system up, without knowing why. It turned up to be SELinux needing a `fixfiles` command. Neither the wiki at DistributionUpgrading, nor the FAQ, Installation guide or the release notes had anything about it. It was mentioned in SELinux FAQ, which, of course, he didn't read. So, in which of the above documents *should* it be mentioned really? :) I am starting to believe that the best thing that we could do is next time to combine everything to something like a "Fedora handbook, version 7": Relnotes, installation, desktop, administration guides, FAQ etc. And most importantly, it needs to be printable. If we escape from the "core release notes" and independent between them docs, I believe we can achieve great things, like good permanent reference points in between chapters, higher level of localization etc. Now with the wiki->xml tool, this will be easier to maintain. -dim -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From fitzsim at redhat.com Thu Sep 14 13:56:31 2006 From: fitzsim at redhat.com (Thomas Fitzsimmons) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 09:56:31 -0400 Subject: [fedora-java] FOP, gcj, classpath, oh my! In-Reply-To: <1158223553.3236.14.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> References: <1157503697.22766.53.camel@erato.phig.org> <45002EA0.3090907@redhat.com> <1158223553.3236.14.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> Message-ID: <45095F8F.5080007@redhat.com> Mark Wielaard wrote: > On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 10:37 -0400, Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: >> Hi Karsten! >> >> Karsten Wade wrote: >>> Can someone give fedora-docs-list an update about our ability to put out >>> a 100% free, gcj-compiled DocBook toolchain? >> I've been meaning to test this against Rawhide but haven't got to it yet. When >> I do, I'll report the status here. (I have a feeling there will have been >> improvements because of the Java2D work in GNU Classpath). > > Yes, I have CCed Cameron and Francis who might have the most up to date > status on all this. If we have a good description of what really must > work then we can concentrate on those parts of gcj, classpath, batik and > fop that are essential to the documentation team. > > I installed FC6test3, but cannot find the fop package that Tom created > (or did I only dream that he did? maybe it was never submitted?). Yes, I never submitted my packages as they were major hacks. Building Batik from the JPackage RPMs is not really feasible, because of the web of dependencies (rhino brings in many), the worst one being maven. None of these dependencies are packaged in FC or FE. On the FOP front, the FOP developers have done work in CVS to eliminate com.sun dependencies, work that hasn't been released and packaged yet. I'd recommend building Batik and FOP from CVS if you're trying these out since then you can configure out the rhino dependency, and so you're working with the updated FOP. Tom From stickster at gmail.com Thu Sep 14 18:25:03 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:25:03 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Beats/Extras"... In-Reply-To: <1158240166.28082.15.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1158184652.16952.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1158240166.28082.15.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1158258303.20711.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-09-14 at 06:22 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2006-09-13 at 17:57 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Not sure how we want to treat this... The Release Notes are explicitly > > about Fedora Core, and not Extras. > > Perhaps we want to rethink that. Since we tout that "with Yum in > Anaconda, it is all the same now," we might have to treat the relnotes > the same way. I know that, by being on the system and all that, there > is an implicit connection between relnotes and installed system, but > with the lines blurring in the installation side, we need to consider > how to deal with it on the notes side. Good point, that. > One advantage of actually have the Docs/Beats/Extras section is that any > number of new pages could be added in that namespace. We then get a > bunch of organized, useful, Extras release notes. > > Personally, I'm curious to see where this takes us. I was surprised at > the attention of Extras in the notes, and am curious what would happen > if we encourage Extras maintainers to use The Release Notes as their > release notes, too. I'm happy to be overruled. So for now -- assuming we don't get a huge amount of material in -- we leave as is. If we get a big influx of material we can refactor it into subpages. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 15 08:52:03 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 01:52:03 -0700 Subject: [fedora-java] FOP, gcj, classpath, oh my! In-Reply-To: <45002EA0.3090907@redhat.com> References: <1157503697.22766.53.camel@erato.phig.org> <45002EA0.3090907@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1158310323.8230.60.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 10:37 -0400, Thomas Fitzsimmons wrote: > Hi Karsten! > > Karsten Wade wrote: > > Can someone give fedora-docs-list an update about our ability to put out > > a 100% free, gcj-compiled DocBook toolchain? > > I've been meaning to test this against Rawhide but haven't got to it yet. When > I do, I'll report the status here. (I have a feeling there will have been > improvements because of the Java2D work in GNU Classpath). Toolchain gang and friends, take note: There have been replies to this thread[1], starting here: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-java-list/2006-September/msg00007.html There are some requests for information and/or testing help from FDP: * SVG graphics that you use in documentation * Testing of the tools against real documents, especially into PDF * Listing of issues [2] * Examples for developers to test against Tommy - is the barrier to having make run the Java tools the lack of support in xmlto? If we're this close, maybe we can get xmlto updated in the devel tree (rawhide) right away. Bonus would be if we could see all of this pushed eventually into updates to FCs 5 and 6. For those who don't know what this is all about, we have been working to: * Produce an alternative DocBook toolchain that is inline with other DocBook usage, so we can gain from the DB community * This means using FOP to produce PDF and PS files. FOP is an Apache project, and is written in Java * Make this Java-based toolchain compile and run using a 100% free and open source compiler and virtual machine (gcj) The version of this toolchain running with a proprietary JVM works well right now, but only if you compile and run using a JVM such as Sun's or IBM's. Until we can get a 100% FLOSS solution, we cannot support a toolchain that has a requirement on non-free software to make it work. This means you could potentially use this toolchain right now to build PDFs. If there is anything you can do to help the developers, this is a worthy cause. - Karsten [1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-java-list/2006-September/thread.html#00006 [2] http://wiki.apache.org/xmlgraphics/GnuClasspathCompatibility -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 15 08:59:56 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 01:59:56 -0700 Subject: [fedora-java] FOP, gcj, classpath, oh my! In-Reply-To: <20060914092059.GA2775@port.mcc.id.au> References: <1157503697.22766.53.camel@erato.phig.org> <45002EA0.3090907@redhat.com> <1158223553.3236.14.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> <20060914092059.GA2775@port.mcc.id.au> Message-ID: <1158310796.8230.71.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-09-14 at 19:21 +1000, Cameron McCormack wrote: > Hi people. Hi Cameron: I'm going to leave your reply intact below, just dropping a note that I sent a separate message to fedora-docs-list summarizing the thread so far and calling attention to what we can do to help. Of the tools-herders, some are busy with test3 packaging, but we certainly must have some people with documents they want to test (into PDFs). I'll keep both lists informed, for now. Thanks, Karsten > Karsten Wade: > > > > Can someone give fedora-docs-list an update about our ability to put out > > > > a 100% free, gcj-compiled DocBook toolchain? > > Thomas Fitzsimmons: > > > I've been meaning to test this against Rawhide but haven't got to it yet. When > > > I do, I'll report the status here. (I have a feeling there will have been > > > improvements because of the Java2D work in GNU Classpath). > > Mark Wielaard: > > Yes, I have CCed Cameron and Francis who might have the most up to date > > status on all this. If we have a good description of what really must > > work then we can concentrate on those parts of gcj, classpath, batik and > > fop that are essential to the documentation team. > > > > I installed FC6test3, but cannot find the fop package that Tom created > > (or did I only dream that he did? maybe it was never submitted?). We > > might need to import/backport some recent classpath CVS fixes into the > > FC6 libgcj to make it all work since I know just days ago some new > > support for batik went into GNU Classpath (hi Francis, hi Cameron). > > Yes, I?ve just last week started to try to identify what Classpath > problems are preventing Batik from working. Since the Fedora people will > (presumably) only be interested in rasterising static SVG documents, > this should avoid having to deal with any Swing issues just yet. > > We are collecting the issues regarding FOP and Batik here: > > http://wiki.apache.org/xmlgraphics/GnuClasspathCompatibility > > One thing I have noticed during my limited testing so far is that the > rasteriser (and the SVG browser, too) is running pretty slowly compared > to on Sun?s JVM. My first guess would be a mismatch of ColorModels > between what Batik is providing and what the Cairo layer underneath is > exepcting (which was a problem for Batik running under Sun?s OSX JVM a > while ago), but I haven?t checked into this yet. > > Some simple files work, others don?t. I really have to do some more > testing before knowing which areas need to be looked at. I will report > back (and update the wiki page above) when I have found out more. > > If the Fedora documentation people want to provide examples of the kinds > of things they will be processing, that would help to prioritise the > work. > > I am not sure about the state of FOP running with Classpath. Jeremias > M?rki (CC?d) should know more. > > Thanks, > > Cameron > -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 15 09:11:34 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 02:11:34 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Beats/Extras" by DavidWoodhouse] In-Reply-To: <45095CC4.50107@glezos.com> References: <1158184652.16952.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1158240166.28082.15.camel@erato.phig.org> <45095CC4.50107@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1158311494.8230.83.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-09-14 at 14:44 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > I think that the first thing we should do after FC6 is to think about if we need > to reorganize our docs. Definitely an idea always worth discussing. :) > Yesterday a friend upgraded from FC2 and couldn't start the system up, without > knowing why. It turned up to be SELinux needing a `fixfiles` command. Neither > the wiki at DistributionUpgrading, nor the FAQ, Installation guide or the > release notes had anything about it. It was mentioned in SELinux FAQ, which, of > course, he didn't read. > > So, in which of the above documents *should* it be mentioned really? :) > > I am starting to believe that the best thing that we could do is next time to > combine everything to something like a "Fedora handbook, version 7": Relnotes, > installation, desktop, administration guides, FAQ etc. I'll provide the standard caveat this project has had since the beginning: It is significant work to maintain a full-size guide. It could be done in a modular way, and that is what we've been doing, working to build up the pieces that could be an All-In-One Guide. One positive to this approach is, an All-In-One Guide is far more interesting output for one's work than, for example, "How To Configure Printers" ... all work is done with the same contribution of a printer how-to, but the result is a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. One negative is that such a guide requires a quantity of contributors that this project has yet to provide. Seven to ten very interested, hard working people plus regular contributors, all of whom have to be dedicated to keeping the content alive. All of whom could see their work being published. So, this negative points to the potential positives. :) > And most importantly, it > needs to be printable. See the other thread about FOP and gcjclasspath; we can help move down this route to PDF production. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Fri Sep 15 14:16:47 2006 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 07:16:47 -0700 Subject: [fedora-java] FOP, gcj, classpath, oh my! In-Reply-To: <1158310323.8230.60.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157503697.22766.53.camel@erato.phig.org> <45002EA0.3090907@redhat.com> <1158310323.8230.60.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20060915071647.f6d5426d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > Tommy - is the barrier to having make run the Java tools the lack of > support in xmlto? If we're this close, maybe we can get xmlto updated > in the devel tree (rawhide) right away. Bonus would be if we could see > all of this pushed eventually into updates to FCs 5 and 6. Karsten, I've had XMLTO working with FOP, and producing PDF's, for quite a while now. As Paul W Frields as pointed out, the PDF's look awful because we need work on the stylesheet. As you probably remember, I sent the appropriate XMLTO patches for FOP to Tim Waugh many, many moons ago. AIUI, his reluctance to add them officially has been mostly that FOP wasn't free. The FOP dependancy in the XMLTO RPM would be endlessly confusing. If needed I could mangle the patches to use either FOP or passivetex so as not to break things while our FOP implementation matures, with the default renderer being passivetex. These are just minor details. I lack the java-fu to compile FOP using gcj; if someone could do it for me, and maybe send me the patches, I could provide Tim a with a complete package. In summary: 1) If we could get someone to provide patches to compile FOP using gcj, I could do the RPM-fu. 2) Having hopes of a FOP rpm, I can update the XMLTO rpm to utilize it. 3) Present Tim Waugh with a fait acompli. I'm not sure that #3 is sufficient to get the updates into rawhide, but it's a necessary step. Cheers -- I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have every intention of dying an abuse! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 15 14:35:37 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 07:35:37 -0700 Subject: [fedora-java] FOP, gcj, classpath, oh my! In-Reply-To: <20060915071647.f6d5426d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1157503697.22766.53.camel@erato.phig.org> <45002EA0.3090907@redhat.com> <1158310323.8230.60.camel@erato.phig.org> <20060915071647.f6d5426d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1158330937.8230.101.camel@erato.phig.org> OK, thanks, bounced the request to f-d-java-l; keep your eyes open there for discussion/response. Top poster, out! On Fri, 2006-09-15 at 07:16 -0700, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > > > Tommy - is the barrier to having make run the Java tools the lack of > > support in xmlto? If we're this close, maybe we can get xmlto updated > > in the devel tree (rawhide) right away. Bonus would be if we could see > > all of this pushed eventually into updates to FCs 5 and 6. > > Karsten, > > I've had XMLTO working with FOP, and producing PDF's, for quite a > while now. As Paul W Frields as pointed out, the PDF's look awful > because we need work on the stylesheet. > > As you probably remember, I sent the appropriate XMLTO patches for > FOP to Tim Waugh many, many moons ago. AIUI, his reluctance to add > them officially has been mostly that FOP wasn't free. The FOP > dependancy in the XMLTO RPM would be endlessly confusing. > > If needed I could mangle the patches to use either FOP or passivetex > so as not to break things while our FOP implementation matures, with > the default renderer being passivetex. These are just minor details. > > I lack the java-fu to compile FOP using gcj; if someone could do > it for me, and maybe send me the patches, I could provide Tim a > with a complete package. > > In summary: > > 1) If we could get someone to provide patches to compile FOP using > gcj, I could do the RPM-fu. > > 2) Having hopes of a FOP rpm, I can update the XMLTO rpm to utilize it. > > 3) Present Tim Waugh with a fait acompli. > > I'm not sure that #3 is sufficient to get the updates into rawhide, > but it's a necessary step. > > Cheers > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Sep 15 14:36:17 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:36:17 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "Docs/Beats/Extras" by DavidWoodhouse] In-Reply-To: <1158311494.8230.83.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1158184652.16952.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1158240166.28082.15.camel@erato.phig.org> <45095CC4.50107@glezos.com> <1158311494.8230.83.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <450ABA61.4000902@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > On Thu, 2006-09-14 at 14:44 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> [...] >> I am starting to believe that the best thing that we could do is next time to >> combine everything to something like a "Fedora handbook, version 7": Relnotes, >> installation, desktop, administration guides, FAQ etc. > > I'll provide the standard caveat this project has had since the > beginning: > > It is significant work to maintain a full-size guide. > > It could be done in a modular way, and that is what we've been doing, > working to build up the pieces that could be an All-In-One Guide. Yes, of course, working in a modular way can help maintenance. If the wiki->xml conversion is complete, we could start thinking on maintaining all the content on the wiki. > One positive to this approach is, an All-In-One Guide is far more interesting > output for one's work than, for example, "How To Configure Printers" ... all > work is done with the same contribution of a printer how-to, but the result > is a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. > > One negative is that such a guide requires a quantity of contributors that > this project has yet to provide. Seven to ten very interested, hard working > people plus regular contributors, all of whom have to be dedicated to keeping > the content alive. All of whom could see their work being published. So, > this negative points to the potential positives. :) Yes, but I (too?) believe this will bring more contributors and translations to the team. Fedora needs something like this. Lowering the barrier to contributions (wiki?) and translations (eg have a direct download link to the po in i18n). One of the pluses will be that we can reduce the information duplication to a minimum this way, thus increasing the maintainability. >> And most importantly, it >> needs to be printable. > > See the other thread about FOP and gcjclasspath; we can help move down > this route to PDF production. Hopefully we will manage to succeed in this. I can help with the stylesheets I guess. -dim > > - Karsten -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Sep 15 15:19:57 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:19:57 +0100 Subject: [fedora-java] FOP, gcj, classpath, oh my! In-Reply-To: <20060915071647.f6d5426d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1157503697.22766.53.camel@erato.phig.org> <45002EA0.3090907@redhat.com> <1158310323.8230.60.camel@erato.phig.org> <20060915071647.f6d5426d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <450AC49D.3060900@glezos.com> O/H Tommy Reynolds ??????: > Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > >> Tommy - is the barrier to having make run the Java tools the lack of >> support in xmlto? If we're this close, maybe we can get xmlto updated >> in the devel tree (rawhide) right away. Bonus would be if we could see >> all of this pushed eventually into updates to FCs 5 and 6. > > Karsten, > > I've had XMLTO working with FOP, and producing PDF's, for quite a > while now. As Paul W Frields as pointed out, the PDF's look awful > because we need work on the stylesheet. I could try to work on the stylesheet. Are there any useful documents I should take a look at to install the toolchain instead of googling it and stuff? Any advices etc? I guess the work on the graphics/stylesheets could be done with the proprietary toolchain until the FOSS one works, right? -dim > As you probably remember, I sent the appropriate XMLTO patches for > FOP to Tim Waugh many, many moons ago. AIUI, his reluctance to add > them officially has been mostly that FOP wasn't free. The FOP > dependancy in the XMLTO RPM would be endlessly confusing. > > If needed I could mangle the patches to use either FOP or passivetex > so as not to break things while our FOP implementation matures, with > the default renderer being passivetex. These are just minor details. > > I lack the java-fu to compile FOP using gcj; if someone could do > it for me, and maybe send me the patches, I could provide Tim a > with a complete package. > > In summary: > > 1) If we could get someone to provide patches to compile FOP using > gcj, I could do the RPM-fu. > > 2) Having hopes of a FOP rpm, I can update the XMLTO rpm to utilize it. > > 3) Present Tim Waugh with a fait acompli. > > I'm not sure that #3 is sufficient to get the updates into rawhide, > but it's a necessary step. > > Cheers > > -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From dimitris at glezos.com Sat Sep 16 01:04:32 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 02:04:32 +0100 Subject: PDF conversion, stylesheets, new wiki page Message-ID: <450B4DA0.6080705@glezos.com> Hi all. I read various things about the PDF conversion and installed the tools to try to hack into the problems we have. I'll see what I can do with stylesheets. I put most of the things that helped me out on the following wiki page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tools/PDFconversion Someone with more experience than mine (that is, one night's experience), should probably correct or put more things up there. Concerning stylesheets, if anyone has any references that might be helpful, for example any FOSS project that did produce nice-looking PDFs, I'm all ears. I know from past experience, that the PHP project rendered nice PDFs and CHMs for their manual (although they stopped producing PDF versions some years now...) -dim -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sat Sep 16 01:27:25 2006 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 18:27:25 -0700 Subject: PDF conversion, stylesheets, new wiki page In-Reply-To: <450B4DA0.6080705@glezos.com> References: <450B4DA0.6080705@glezos.com> Message-ID: <20060915182725.2d88e6bb.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Dimitris Glezos , spake thus: > Concerning stylesheets, if anyone has any references that might be > helpful, for example any FOSS project that did produce nice-looking > PDFs, I'm all ears. I know from past experience, that the PHP project > rendered nice PDFs and CHMs for their manual (although they stopped > producing PDF versions some years now...) I hacked up the Fedora PDF tools for my own use; you might get inspiration from them: http://www.megacoder.com/files/pdf/main-pdf.xsl http://www.megacoder.com/files/pdf/megacoder.xsl HTH -- I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have every intention of dying an abuse! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Mon Sep 18 02:05:52 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 03:05:52 +0100 Subject: new Firefox/splash page for FC6? In-Reply-To: <1158172989.20991.85.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1157503159.22766.48.camel@erato.phig.org> <44FEFD8B.2000109@glezos.com> <1157615476.7220.147.camel@erato.phig.org> <4500CB59.5070407@glezos.com> <1157730065.4775.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1157736072.4775.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45075897.1050006@glezos.com> <1158172989.20991.85.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <450DFF00.7050700@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > One tweak, on the HREF for the DUG. We're going to go live with the > Wiki version in Docs/Drafts instead of trying to move it out. OK, I just did another update. http://dimitris.glezos.com/box/foss/fc6-browser-splash/ More info: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FirefoxDefaultSplash ## Changes from last version * Made most of the changes mentioned by everyone. Too many to mention. * Changed the header a bit and produced some other formats (see below). * After talking on IRC, decided to keep Fedora Unity and the fedorafaq.org. The order of links depends on how useful a user might find them. * Renamed the page to "Fedora Local Homepage" after suggestion from Karsten. Found this suggestion the best (typically correct and understantable at the same time). * Added Installation Guide. Made both guides links to online versions. (IG link to fed.redh.c, DUG to wiki). ## Theme The artwork team did not respond to my request for a better theme than the current one, so I prepared some themes myself. I tried my best, given the time I had. I packed their screenshots in a tgz here: http://dimitris.glezos.com/box/foss/fc6-browser-splash-shots.tar.gz I prefer v3b (current live version) and v3d. The DNA theme might be nice, but I prefer the first one because it is more pleasant. I'll send an email to the artwork list for opinions. ## Blah I think it is time to move to DocBook. I'm playing with stuff that will definitely change a lot during the transition, so we better do it now. Paul, what do you think? -dim -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, PGP: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From g.caruso at fedoraserver.org Mon Sep 18 09:36:56 2006 From: g.caruso at fedoraserver.org (g.caruso at fedoraserver.org) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 02:36:56 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Guido Caruso Message-ID: <20060918023656.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.0ad47205c9.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Hi, all My name is Guido Caruso from Palermo, Italy; I an engineer and I work as system administrator in Department of Hydraulic Engineering - University of Palermo. I wish to translate Fedora documentation in Italian language. I have translated some documents of Linux Documentation Project (TLDP) in Italian (PLUTO-Ildp). I am administrator of http://www.fedoraserver.org. I wrote some articles about Linux, published by Linux Magazine, an italian magazine on Linux and open-source. My computer skills are considered medium-high for my working environment as servers: web (apache and tomcat), database (mysql), mail (postfix), computing (openmosix) and others. I work from 1999 only with Red Hat and Fedora platforms. Best regards to all. pub 1024D/F7C02068 2006-09-17 Key fingerprint = 7CB0 2580 A3F9 4E35 205C 5FE8 6357 535B F7C0 2068 uid Guido Caruso sub 2048g/D217FD4B 2006-09-17 From johan at x-tnd.be Mon Sep 18 14:06:42 2006 From: johan at x-tnd.be (Johan Cwiklinski) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:06:42 +0200 Subject: Self introduction : Johan Cwikinski Message-ID: <450EA7F2.3040506@x-tnd.be> Hello, my name is Johan Cwiklinski. I live in Douai, north of France. I'm actually unemployed but used to work in system administration (Linux), webmastering adn a few Java developments. To help the Fedora Project, I'd like to translate documentation in French ; I'm already working on it for a short while on the Wiki but there are still many documentations available only in english. I'm webmaster of a french website about open source technologies. I daily use Fedora for my personnal use and still maintain the Fedora's servers I've putted in place for my old employer, including ssh, samba, apache/php/mysql and tomcat servers. Best regards, Johan pub 1024D/8BA59F94 2006-04-17 Empreinte de la cl? = A86A 1150 F0BA 5626 918A 7ED3 ECDD 81FB 8BA5 9F94 uid Johan Cwiklinski (Trasher) sub 2048g/9C6CFEB8 2006-04-17 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mospina at redhat.com Tue Sep 19 23:24:58 2006 From: mospina at redhat.com (Manuel Ospina) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:24:58 +1000 Subject: Trans-quick-start-guide updates Message-ID: <1158708298.4066.6.camel@dhcp-118.brisbane.redhat.com> Hi, I have update the translation quick start guide in order to address the following bugs: * Bug 204266: Improvement of 3. Translating Software * Bug 205167: Need to include info for New Language, which has no status page * Bug 198726: Improvement of the section Table of Contents I put a comment with the bug number before and after the edited texts in the XML file. I would appreciate if anyone could proofread and edit the changes. Thanks, Manuel Ospina From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 20 00:59:52 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:59:52 -0700 Subject: [fedora-java] FOP, gcj, classpath, oh my! In-Reply-To: <450AC49D.3060900@glezos.com> References: <1157503697.22766.53.camel@erato.phig.org> <45002EA0.3090907@redhat.com> <1158310323.8230.60.camel@erato.phig.org> <20060915071647.f6d5426d.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <450AC49D.3060900@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1158713992.2714.244.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-09-15 at 16:19 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > I could try to work on the stylesheet. Are there any useful documents I should > take a look at to install the toolchain instead of googling it and stuff? Any > advices etc? If you use Tommy's bits, I think you can make them work directly from a Fedora Core install, either using our existing Makefile.common structure or with a local addition in your project/Makefile/ to send specific options to xmlto. Tommy - am I missing anything here? Or, rather, what am I missing here? :) > I guess the work on the graphics/stylesheets could be done with the proprietary > toolchain until the FOSS one works, right? This is quite true. It might also be nice to have an XSL that we know works on other JVMs, so it properly tests gcj. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 14:01:02 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:01:02 -0400 Subject: Release Notes freeze for FC6 Message-ID: <1158760862.10989.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Release notes will be frozen on the wiki for translation this Saturday, 23 September 2006. Any content not updated there will not be translated, and will not be in the FC6 final ISO spin. Please make your updates by Friday 22 September 2006 at 2359 UTC to ensure they are available to FC6 users. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule Content will be unfrozen following the XML conversion and release to the Translation Project. At that time, you may again make changes to the wiki, but these changes will *NOT* be in the ISO or FC6 final release. They will be published on the Web as an errata release. This Web page is linked prominently from the top of the Release Notes included in the FC6 ISO spin. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 19:39:02 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 15:39:02 -0400 Subject: Testing the splash from XML In-Reply-To: <45118A80.3090603@glezos.com> References: <1158713901.8280.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45118A80.3090603@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1158781142.13966.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 19:37 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > O/H Paul W. Frields ??????: > > Hi Dimitris, > > > > Thanks for your work on the splash page... people are very excited about > > it. Tommy wrote some neat script-fu to redirect a browser to the right > > language; it should be easy for me to include this in the packaging as > > well. > > > > What we also would like is the ability for our normal translation > > process to work on the splash page as well, which means it would be > > least disruptive both to us and the translators for it to be built from > > DocBook XML source like our other docs. A different CSS is easy to > > apply in the packaging process. So what I'd like you to do is to try to > > build this using our toolchain, and simply copy in your CSS to see how > > it works. > > Hi Paul, > > first of all, kudos for the good work. I tried the doc and it built just fine. > Some observations: > > 1. It seems the text in your version is a bit old. I'll try to merge them. > (that's why I wanted to go into DocBook as soon as possible). > > 2. We'll need to add some ID and CLASS attributes. Is that OK? Actually, that's part of the problem that I was hoping you would see. There's no easy way to add those attributes from inside DocBook XML and have them stick (I've tried). But I had a thought today that some XSLT might be able to make it stick properly, especially if I build this particular page as XHTML. > 3. We should pass the HTML through `tidy` before publishing it. Something > like: `tidy -utf8 -i -asxhtml index.html > index.tidy.html`. -1. We're simply packaging this onto user systems where most users are not going to care about it other than to read the content in a browser. How it looks is not relevant, and it could conceivably put a requirement in place (i.e. tidy) that we are not prepared to carry over into another build system. KISS principle says let it ride, plus see below... > 4. I'll provide a different CSS, that complements fedora.css. Well, a few changes wouldn't be bad, keeping in mind that the banner work you added and showed on the art list were *really* nice, and we'd like to keep that, pursuant to whatever is dictated for trademark protection. If you find a complementary color scheme, I think that's great. > So, what I am going to do is try to fix the XHTML (as little intervention as > possible) to put the CSS into work. I'll first run the tidy thing and give you > the differences from that, so that you can put them inside the XSLT. OK? Actually, we don't want to fix the XHTML in place. What we want is to be able to *automate* this procedure as part of the build process regardless of content, and I think a diff-type patch is not a good way of doing that. Better would be an XSLT stylesheet to simply separate out the two columns with a @CLASS attribute, for example. If you can write that, let me know. If you can't I will find some time to do it. cc'ing Docs to let everyone know this is progressing. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 20 22:25:37 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 15:25:37 -0700 Subject: Final release notes deadline - 23 Sep Wiki freeze Message-ID: <1158791138.2714.327.camel@erato.phig.org> The release notes Wiki for FC6 are frozen on 23 Sep. 23:59 UTC for translation and inclusion in the ISO. This is your last chance to get content into the actual ISO. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats See below for a complete list of all beats that have no content for FC6[1]. These beats are going to be *dropped* from the final release notes, so no heading or content will appear. If you have anything that needs to be in the release notes, now is the time. After that, 07 Oct. is the next snapshot of the Wiki for the Web-only release of the notes. The Web-only release is not guaranteed to be translated. If you have filed any bugs or sent email to relnotes at fedoraproject.org, etc., that content is going to be included in the next few days. Any bugs must block 197471[2]. Best idea is to just edit the Wiki. :) Thanks again to all contributors; we set the bar high and once again made the hurdle to produce the best release notes in all Linux. - Karsten [1] Beats with no new content for FC6: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Printing http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Samba http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Security http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/DatabaseServers http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/ServerTools http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Xorg http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/FileServers http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/PackageChanges http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/SystemDaemons http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Legacy http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/ArchSpecific/x86 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Networking [2] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/showdependencytree.cgi?id=197471&hide_resolved=1 -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 20 22:30:31 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 15:30:31 -0700 Subject: CVS sponsorship (trans & docs) Message-ID: <1158791431.2714.340.camel@erato.phig.org> We've stalled on making a sponsorship process for FDP CVS in hopes that the two separate CVS systems from Translation and Documentation would be combined, and we could have one process overall. This combining is not happening yet, so we need a process to carry us through. This process should fit into the overall Documentation/Translation scheme for the future. The process should have sponsors take on the job of: i. Mentoring new translators in how to translate documentation ii. Watching CVS commits for problems, etc. iii. Fixing any mistakes or dropped translations Here is an idea for a process. What is stupid about it? What is good about it? * We add steps to the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Translation page for new translators: 1. Join the language list fedora-trans-$LANG 2. Introduce yourself on that list as per Fedora Translation requirements 3. Ask for someone who does documentation translation for your language to sponsor you in Documentation CVS, then follow the steps to request cvsdocs access 4. When you self-introduce to fedora-docs-list, include the name of your sponsor and that you have requested cvsdocs access 5. Sponsor should reply to fedora-docs-list with a confirmation (ACK) 6. Start bugging us via #fedora-docs and fedora-docs-list to accept your cvsdocs access immediately * Sponsors from a language group must: - Ensure that translations go through an accuracy check (QA) - Help the new translator learn how to use the Documentation tools (build tools, CVS, etc.) - Be there to help in case of trouble with CVS or tools - You do not need to know all the answers - Your main job here is to help connect people with problems with the people who can help solve them - Think of this as a mentoring role We can either get this process or a pointer to the Wiki put into the Translation Quick Start Guide. Thoughts? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From noriko at redhat.com Wed Sep 20 23:35:00 2006 From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:35:00 +1000 Subject: CVS sponsorship (trans & docs) In-Reply-To: <1158791431.2714.340.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1158791431.2714.340.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4511D024.1070500@redhat.com> Hi, Karsten Wade wrote: > We've stalled on making a sponsorship process for FDP CVS in hopes that > the two separate CVS systems from Translation and Documentation would be > combined, and we could have one process overall. This combining is not > happening yet, so we need a process to carry us through. This process > should fit into the overall Documentation/Translation scheme for the > future. > > The process should have sponsors take on the job of: > > i. Mentoring new translators in how to translate documentation > ii. Watching CVS commits for problems, etc. > iii. Fixing any mistakes or dropped translations > > Here is an idea for a process. What is stupid about it? What is good > about it? > > * We add steps to the > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Translation page for new > translators: > 1. Join the language list fedora-trans-$LANG > 2. Introduce yourself on that list as per Fedora Translation > requirements > 3. Ask for someone who does documentation translation for your > language to sponsor you in Documentation CVS, then follow the steps to > request cvsdocs access > 4. When you self-introduce to fedora-docs-list, include the name of > your sponsor and that you have requested cvsdocs access > 5. Sponsor should reply to fedora-docs-list with a confirmation (ACK) > 6. Start bugging us via #fedora-docs and fedora-docs-list to accept > your cvsdocs access immediately > > * Sponsors from a language group must: > - Ensure that translations go through an accuracy check (QA) > - Help the new translator learn how to use the Documentation tools > (build tools, CVS, etc.) > - Be there to help in case of trouble with CVS or tools > - You do not need to know all the answers > - Your main job here is to help connect people with problems with > the people who can help solve them > - Think of this as a mentoring role > > We can either get this process or a pointer to the Wiki put into the > Translation Quick Start Guide. > > Thoughts? Looks clear and sounds good to me, one question. The sponsor should be a writer but not translator? What if current active translator has an interest to be... If this is acceptable, I'd like to forward the message to fedora-trans-list, also I am going to raise my hand. noriko > > - Karsten > From stickster at gmail.com Thu Sep 21 00:32:57 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:32:57 -0400 Subject: Trans-quick-start-guide updates In-Reply-To: <1158708298.4066.6.camel@dhcp-118.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1158708298.4066.6.camel@dhcp-118.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1158798777.15768.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 09:24 +1000, Manuel Ospina wrote: > Hi, > > I have update the translation quick start guide in order to address the > following bugs: > > * Bug 204266: > Improvement of 3. Translating Software > * Bug 205167: > Need to include info for New Language, which has no status page > * Bug 198726: > Improvement of the section Table of Contents > > I put a comment with the bug number before and after the edited texts in > the XML file. > > I would appreciate if anyone could proofread and edit the changes. Done. I haven't had time to publish the update yet, but I will do it shortly. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Sep 21 00:38:04 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:38:04 -0400 Subject: CVS sponsorship (trans & docs) In-Reply-To: <4511D024.1070500@redhat.com> References: <1158791431.2714.340.camel@erato.phig.org> <4511D024.1070500@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1158799084.15768.51.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-09-21 at 09:35 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > Hi, > Karsten Wade wrote: > > We've stalled on making a sponsorship process for FDP CVS in hopes that > > the two separate CVS systems from Translation and Documentation would be > > combined, and we could have one process overall. This combining is not > > happening yet, so we need a process to carry us through. This process > > should fit into the overall Documentation/Translation scheme for the > > future. > > > > The process should have sponsors take on the job of: > > > > i. Mentoring new translators in how to translate documentation > > ii. Watching CVS commits for problems, etc. > > iii. Fixing any mistakes or dropped translations > > > > Here is an idea for a process. What is stupid about it? What is good > > about it? > > > > * We add steps to the > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Translation page for new > > translators: > > 1. Join the language list fedora-trans-$LANG > > 2. Introduce yourself on that list as per Fedora Translation > > requirements > > 3. Ask for someone who does documentation translation for your > > language to sponsor you in Documentation CVS, then follow the steps to > > request cvsdocs access > > 4. When you self-introduce to fedora-docs-list, include the name of > > your sponsor and that you have requested cvsdocs access > > 5. Sponsor should reply to fedora-docs-list with a confirmation (ACK) > > 6. Start bugging us via #fedora-docs and fedora-docs-list to accept > > your cvsdocs access immediately > > > > * Sponsors from a language group must: > > - Ensure that translations go through an accuracy check (QA) > > - Help the new translator learn how to use the Documentation tools > > (build tools, CVS, etc.) > > - Be there to help in case of trouble with CVS or tools > > - You do not need to know all the answers > > - Your main job here is to help connect people with problems with > > the people who can help solve them > > - Think of this as a mentoring role > > > > We can either get this process or a pointer to the Wiki put into the > > Translation Quick Start Guide. > > > > Thoughts? > > Looks clear and sounds good to me, one question. > The sponsor should be a writer but not translator? > What if current active translator has an interest to be... > If this is acceptable, I'd like to forward the message to > fedora-trans-list, also I am going to raise my hand. Hi Noriko, I hope I understood your question correctly. If not, please feel free to correct me. :-) I think we are looking for the sponsor to *also* be a translator, so that the two translators can check each other's work. This partnership will ensure that the translation is as accurate as possible. There is no reason a writer could not also be a translator, if she has the experience to do so. Most of our writers seem to be native English speakers, but this is not a requirement. However, anyone who wanted to translate a non-English document to English would need to speak the original document's language well enough. Again, if I got your question wrong, please clarify and I'll try to come up with a more accurate response. Thanks for your help, and I look forward to seeing your Release Notes in FC6! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Sep 21 00:40:54 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:40:54 -0400 Subject: release-notes/devel/po fr_FR.po,1.13,1.14 In-Reply-To: <200609202208.k8KM8wgb008057@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> References: <200609202208.k8KM8wgb008057@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1158799254.15768.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 15:08 -0700, Thomas Canniot wrote: > Author: mrtom > > Update of /cvs/docs/release-notes/devel/po > In directory cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com:/tmp/cvs-serv8027 > > Modified Files: > fr_FR.po > Log Message: > translation updated Thomas, Has this translation already been done in i18n.redhat.com? You don't need to provide it here again, if so. If you're not providing Release Notes translations in i18n.rh.c, is there a way for you to make that clear on that other sytsem? I am just worried about accidentally importing the wrong translation if we have to start keeping track of them twice. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Sep 21 00:42:57 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:42:57 -0400 Subject: release-notes/devel/po fr_FR.po,1.13,1.14 In-Reply-To: <1158799254.15768.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200609202208.k8KM8wgb008057@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> <1158799254.15768.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1158799377.15768.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 20:40 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 15:08 -0700, Thomas Canniot wrote: > > Author: mrtom > > > > Update of /cvs/docs/release-notes/devel/po > > In directory cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com:/tmp/cvs-serv8027 > > > > Modified Files: > > fr_FR.po > > Log Message: > > translation updated > > Thomas, > > Has this translation already been done in i18n.redhat.com? You don't > need to provide it here again, if so. If you're not providing Release > Notes translations in i18n.rh.c, is there a way for you to make that > clear on that other sytsem? I am just worried about accidentally > importing the wrong translation if we have to start keeping track of > them twice. Oops, and let me also point out that we know very well that we are somewhat responsible for our own confusion here. :-) We had hoped to be integrated into one translation system by now, but it has not yet happened. I wish I could tell you when it will happen, but I can't. We are working on it though, and we do want to make things easier for our great translation community. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From g.caruso at fedoraserver.org Thu Sep 21 09:38:40 2006 From: g.caruso at fedoraserver.org (g.caruso at fedoraserver.org) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 02:38:40 -0700 Subject: List subscription and CVS Message-ID: <20060921023840.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.d325468f78.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Hi to all. I added myself to the group "cvsdocs" in my project account with the result that I now have an entry in my account stating "cvsdocs [...] unapproved" (https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/). There's no way for me to checkout documentation from CVS (module fedora-install-guide). Why? Best regards Guido Caruso From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 21 14:14:00 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 07:14:00 -0700 Subject: List subscription and CVS In-Reply-To: <20060921023840.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.d325468f78.wbe@email.secureserver.net> References: <20060921023840.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.d325468f78.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1158848040.2714.377.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-09-21 at 02:38 -0700, g.caruso at fedoraserver.org wrote: > Hi to all. > I added myself to the group "cvsdocs" in my project account with the > result that I now have an entry in my account stating "cvsdocs [...] > unapproved" (https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/). There's no way > for me to checkout documentation from CVS (module fedora-install-guide). You actually can checkout via anonymous CVS at any time: export CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous at cvs.fedora.redhat.com:/cvs/docs cvs -z3 login cvs -z3 co docs-common cvs -z3 co I just posted a new process yesterday to this list that says you need to get another translator in your language to your sponsor in CVS. This sponsorship for CVS is a process that is used across Fedora, and now we are asking translators to do the same. Email back to this list when you have a sponsor and we can quickly approve your cvsdocs membership. Does this make sense? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 21 14:29:47 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 07:29:47 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Guido Caruso In-Reply-To: <20060918023656.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.0ad47205c9.wbe@email.secureserver.net> References: <20060918023656.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.0ad47205c9.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1158848988.2714.386.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-09-18 at 02:36 -0700, g.caruso at fedoraserver.org wrote: > Hi, all > My name is Guido Caruso from Palermo, Italy; Guido: Benvenuto a Fedora Documentation. I see you are interested in translating. If you are also interested in writing original-language technical docs in Italian (to be translated to English and others), we are encouraging that. This hasn't been done yet, but there are enough Italian translator/writers in the project that you can find an Italian editor to work with. Cheers - Karsten > I an engineer and I work as system administrator in Department of > Hydraulic Engineering - University of Palermo. > I wish to translate Fedora documentation in Italian language. > I have translated some documents of Linux Documentation Project (TLDP) > in Italian (PLUTO-Ildp). > I am administrator of http://www.fedoraserver.org. > I wrote some articles about Linux, published by Linux Magazine, an > italian magazine on Linux and open-source. > My computer skills are considered medium-high for my working environment > as servers: web (apache and tomcat), database (mysql), mail (postfix), > computing (openmosix) and others. > I work from 1999 only with Red Hat and Fedora platforms. > > Best regards to all. > > pub 1024D/F7C02068 2006-09-17 > Key fingerprint = 7CB0 2580 A3F9 4E35 205C 5FE8 6357 535B F7C0 > 2068 > uid Guido Caruso > sub 2048g/D217FD4B 2006-09-17 > -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From g.caruso at fedoraserver.org Thu Sep 21 18:12:59 2006 From: g.caruso at fedoraserver.org (g.caruso at fedoraserver.org) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:12:59 -0700 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <20060921111259.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.65fdc4971f.wbe@email.secureserver.net> >Benvenuto a Fedora Documentation. Thanks, Karsten. >I see you are interested in translating. If you are also interested in >writing original-language technical docs in Italian (to be translated to >English and others), we are encouraging that. This hasn't been done >yet, but there are enough Italian translator/writers in the project that >you can find an Italian editor to work with. Yes, I would like to write original technical docs for Fedora, and I can find also an italian editor for this; but perhaps it's better to do it after FC6 release. New release, new docs ;-). Guido.- From g.caruso at fedoraserver.org Thu Sep 21 21:12:45 2006 From: g.caruso at fedoraserver.org (g.caruso at fedoraserver.org) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:12:45 -0700 Subject: Guido Caruso: Sponsor founded Message-ID: <20060921141245.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.2bc45d4163.wbe@email.secureserver.net> >Email back to this list when you have a sponsor and we can quickly >approve your cvsdocs membership. Hi! I have my sponsor: Francesco Tombolini Guido.- From g.caruso at fedoraserver.org Thu Sep 21 21:35:19 2006 From: g.caruso at fedoraserver.org (g.caruso at fedoraserver.org) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:35:19 -0700 Subject: excuse me Message-ID: <20060921143519.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.7f4bd7c4b7.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Pleae excuse me: 1. message without subject; 2. message with wrong subject: Sponsor founded ..? sponsor found..! Sorry. Guido Caruso.- From tombo at adamantio.net Thu Sep 21 21:36:36 2006 From: tombo at adamantio.net (Francesco Tombolini) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 23:36:36 +0200 Subject: Guido Caruso: Sponsor founded In-Reply-To: <20060921141245.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.2bc45d4163.wbe@email.secureserver.net> References: <20060921141245.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.2bc45d4163.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <200609212336.41466.tombo@adamantio.net> Alle 23:12, gioved? 21 settembre 2006, g.caruso at fedoraserver.org ha scritto: > >Email back to this list when you have a sponsor and we can quickly > >approve your cvsdocs membership. > > Hi! I have my sponsor: > Francesco Tombolini > Guido.- I would be happy to help Guido to clarify any doubts about the translation process and its tools basing on my experience. -- Francesco Tombolini Key fingerprint = EDA9 7504 AA93 CEFC 5990 1356 8584 6B05 F140 5F73 http://www.adamantio.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 22 03:18:27 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:18:27 -0700 Subject: excuse me In-Reply-To: <20060921143519.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.7f4bd7c4b7.wbe@email.secureserver.net> References: <20060921143519.de24042903101a4f77687a9d31d0690f.7f4bd7c4b7.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1158895107.10103.21.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-09-21 at 14:35 -0700, g.caruso at fedoraserver.org wrote: > Pleae excuse me: > 1. message without subject; > 2. message with wrong subject: Sponsor founded ..? sponsor found..! > Sorry. Guido Caruso.- Excellent! A translator, a writer ... and an editor. Yes, this is the Fedora Documentation Project, where it is always "on topic" to correct your own email. ;-) - Karsten, who edits and updates his blog posts, too -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Sep 22 17:45:22 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:45:22 -0400 Subject: Self introduction : Johan Cwikinski In-Reply-To: <450EA7F2.3040506@x-tnd.be> References: <450EA7F2.3040506@x-tnd.be> Message-ID: <1158947122.2301.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-09-18 at 16:06 +0200, Johan Cwiklinski wrote: > Hello, my name is Johan Cwiklinski. > I live in Douai, north of France. > > I'm actually unemployed but used to work in system administration > (Linux), webmastering adn a few Java developments. > > To help the Fedora Project, I'd like to translate documentation in > French ; I'm already working on it for a short while on the Wiki but > there are still many documentations available only in english. > > I'm webmaster of a french website about open source technologies. > > I daily use Fedora for my personnal use and still maintain the Fedora's > servers I've putted in place for my old employer, including ssh, samba, > apache/php/mysql and tomcat servers. In case you hadn't heard it already, welcome Johan! I think I recall hearing that you had a sponsor for translation, correct? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From johan at x-tnd.be Fri Sep 22 18:31:10 2006 From: johan at x-tnd.be (Johan Cwiklinski) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:31:10 +0200 Subject: Self introduction : Johan Cwikinski In-Reply-To: <1158947122.2301.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <450EA7F2.3040506@x-tnd.be> <1158947122.2301.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45142BEE.2090108@x-tnd.be> Paul W. Frields a ?crit : > In case you hadn't heard it already, welcome Johan! I think I recall > hearing that you had a sponsor for translation, correct? Thank you :) Yes Thomas Canniot sponsored me, we went to #fedora-docs for that because we didnt know sponsor was needed... All is ok now, I can translate ;) Best regards, Johan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Sep 23 03:52:03 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:52:03 -0700 Subject: byzanz, a screencast/desktop recorder Message-ID: <1158983524.10103.67.camel@erato.phig.org> Work has been going on with Istanbul, a desktop recorder that outputs Ogg Theora formatted screencasts. I just read up on Byzanz[1], a desktop recorder also in Extras that outputs animated GIF files. Reportedly the files are very large, so this may only be good for ~10 second screencasts. Although short, 10 seconds is enough to convey a number of interesting things to people who are looking into using Fedora. The GIF output is targeted at people with OSes that don't support Ogg formats natively. :) Just throwing something else out there to look at for screencasting. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Sat Sep 23 13:19:31 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 16:19:31 +0300 Subject: Icon extractor for linux apps Message-ID: <9d2c731f0609230619q7afd31eh2e5fd6a7f7766525@mail.gmail.com> I am trying to upload icons to the wiki to add illustrations to the Desktop Users Guide. I am having trouble finding icons for several applications such as Evolution. I even downloaded the source in an attempt to locate the icons. Does any one know of a linux utility that extracts embedded icons from a linux application? I know of several such utilities for Windows. If such a utility doesn't exist, is there an alternate method to achieve the same results. Regards, John Babich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Sep 23 13:24:41 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 18:54:41 +0530 Subject: byzanz, a screencast/desktop recorder In-Reply-To: <1158983524.10103.67.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1158983524.10103.67.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <45153599.9080401@fedoraproject.org> Karsten Wade wrote: > Work has been going on with Istanbul, a desktop recorder that outputs > Ogg Theora formatted screencasts. > > I just read up on Byzanz[1], a desktop recorder also in Extras that > outputs animated GIF files. Reportedly the files are very large, so > this may only be good for ~10 second screencasts. Although short, 10 > seconds is enough to convey a number of interesting things to people who > are looking into using Fedora. The GIF output is targeted at people > with OSes that don't support Ogg formats natively. :) > > Just throwing something else out there to look at for screencasting. > > - Karsten > Already documented in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ScreenCasting Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Sat Sep 23 15:45:26 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:45:26 -0400 Subject: Icon extractor for linux apps In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0609230619q7afd31eh2e5fd6a7f7766525@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0609230619q7afd31eh2e5fd6a7f7766525@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1159026326.6358.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 16:19 +0300, John Babich wrote: > I am trying to upload icons to the wiki to add illustrations to the > Desktop Users Guide. > I am having trouble finding icons for several applications such as > Evolution. I even > downloaded the source in an attempt to locate the icons. > > Does any one know of a linux utility that extracts embedded icons from > a linux > application? I know of several such utilities for Windows. > > If such a utility doesn't exist, is there an alternate method to > achieve the same results. Hi John, I think most of these icons are in /usr/share/icons/gnome. A few different sizes are available so you can use larger, more easily readable versions in your docs. For instance: $ cd /usr/share/icons/gnome $ find -type f | grep send ./24x24/stock/generic/stock_send-fax.png ./24x24/stock/net/stock_mail-send.png ./24x24/stock/net/stock_mail-send-receive.png ./16x16/stock/generic/stock_send-fax.png ./16x16/stock/net/stock_mail-send.png ./16x16/stock/net/stock_mail-send-receive.png ./32x32/stock/net/stock_mail-send.png ./32x32/stock/net/stock_mail-send-receive.png ./48x48/stock/net/stock_mail-send.png ./48x48/stock/net/stock_mail-send-receive.png Most GTK and GNOME applications draw their icons from a common pool to prevent each application from having to package its own, and to promote common theming. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sat Sep 23 18:17:55 2006 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:17:55 -0700 Subject: Icon extractor for linux apps In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0609230619q7afd31eh2e5fd6a7f7766525@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0609230619q7afd31eh2e5fd6a7f7766525@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060923111755.b8cc0008.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "John Babich" , spake thus: > Does any one know of a linux utility that extracts embedded icons from a > linux > application? I know of several such utilities for Windows. > > If such a utility doesn't exist, is there an alternate method to achieve the > same results. You are right: icons in Linux applications are not packaged in a resource file like WinDoze duz. Instead, they are either separate files installed by the RPM, or they are embedded in the program text where they look a lot like orginary code. Two solutions come to mind: 1) Pick them out of the RPM file. Say you have a program "foo" and you know there are icons associated with it. Using The Force, Luke, you can use this command line string: $ rpm -q -f $(which foo) -l | egrep -i '.(png|jpg|gif|xpm|xbm)$' to see a list of image files installed by the RPM which owns the executable "foo". (If you already know the path to the "foo" executable, just replace the "$(which foo)" with that path. 2) Cheat by using a screen shot... HTH -- I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have every intention of dying an abuse! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Sat Sep 23 20:20:26 2006 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 23:20:26 +0300 Subject: Icon extractor for linux apps In-Reply-To: <20060923111755.b8cc0008.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <9d2c731f0609230619q7afd31eh2e5fd6a7f7766525@mail.gmail.com> <20060923111755.b8cc0008.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0609231320y4ca581a2v86b8f269d8a56720@mail.gmail.com> Paul / Tommy: Thanks for the pointers. I'll try out your solutions and let you know how it goes. John On 9/23/06, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > Uttered "John Babich" , spake thus: > > > Does any one know of a linux utility that extracts embedded icons from a > > linux > > application? I know of several such utilities for Windows. > > > > If such a utility doesn't exist, is there an alternate method to achieve > the > > same results. > > You are right: icons in Linux applications are not packaged in a > resource file like WinDoze duz. Instead, they are either separate > files installed by the RPM, or they are embedded in the program text > where they look a lot like orginary code. > > Two solutions come to mind: > > 1) Pick them out of the RPM file. Say you have a program "foo" and > you know there are icons associated with it. Using The Force, > Luke, you can use this command line string: > > $ rpm -q -f $(which foo) -l | egrep -i '.(png|jpg|gif|xpm|xbm)$' > > to see a list of image files installed by the RPM which owns the > executable "foo". (If you already know the path to the "foo" > executable, just replace the "$(which foo)" with that path. > > 2) Cheat by using a screen shot... > > HTH > > -- > I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have > every intention of dying an abuse! > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dutko.adam at gmail.com Sun Sep 24 13:44:41 2006 From: dutko.adam at gmail.com (Adam Dutko) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:44:41 -0400 Subject: Self-Introduction: Adam M. Dutko Message-ID: Adam M. Dutko I live in Cleveland, OH with my wife, two dogs and two cats. I work as a Linux Systems Administrator for a large Chemical Coatings company and am currently pursuing my MBA in Operations Management (subject to change) and my M.S. in Software Engineering. My professional and personal interests (in no particular order) revolve around open source, computing, programming, brewing beer, sewing my own clothes, bike riding, rowing, emedded systems and wireless sensor networks. While working at a NASA site one summer as anintern I was fortunate enough to be exposed to RedHat 7.3. From that point I became an avid user of the Linux kernel, Open Source and RedHat related distributions. I was once a paying member of the RedHat community when the "RedHat" personal distribution was still around, and I use RHEL at work. With that said, I would now like give back to the community that's given me so much over the years: a job and a hobby. My primary goals are to improve upon my writing skills while helping the Fedora community. Considering I am a student and work full-time, I will make contributions on a sporadic basis. When I'm finished with school I plan on starting an open source company based out of Cleveland, OH. I'm not exactly sure what type of documentation I would like to do, but I do have programming, administration and "soft experience" so please let me know what area in the Fedora community needs the most help. Since this is my first attempt at writing documentation I unfortunately do not have any past projects to tell you about. pub 1024D/B8A783EE 2006-09-24 [expires: 2007-09-24] Key fingerprint = E095 6B64 8E94 A021 379B 9A5E 1724 3CEE B8A7 83EE uid Adam M. Dutko (Developer) sub 2048g/B1698F91 2006-09-24 [expires: 2007-09-24] Please e-mail if you would like to know more. -Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From samfw at redhat.com Sun Sep 24 15:52:39 2006 From: samfw at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 11:52:39 -0400 Subject: plone? Message-ID: <1159113159.393.1.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> iirc there was talk months ago about switching from moin moin to plone. i wasn't privy to the discussions around that, i just heard it was happening. is that still planned? do we need help with that? or, was that idea scrapped? sam From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Sep 24 15:55:44 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:25:44 +0530 Subject: plone? In-Reply-To: <1159113159.393.1.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1159113159.393.1.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4516AA80.1040107@fedoraproject.org> Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > iirc there was talk months ago about switching from moin moin to plone. > i wasn't privy to the discussions around that, i just heard it was > happening. is that still planned? do we need help with that? or, was > that idea scrapped? > > sam > We still need help. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/PloneToDo Rahul From samfw at redhat.com Sun Sep 24 16:04:33 2006 From: samfw at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:04:33 -0400 Subject: plone? In-Reply-To: <4516AA80.1040107@fedoraproject.org> References: <1159113159.393.1.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> <4516AA80.1040107@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1159113874.393.7.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> On Sun, 2006-09-24 at 21:25 +0530, Rahul wrote: > Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > > iirc there was talk months ago about switching from moin moin to plone. > > i wasn't privy to the discussions around that, i just heard it was > > happening. is that still planned? do we need help with that? or, was > > that idea scrapped? > > > > sam > > > > We still need help. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/PloneToDo > OK - reading that page brings me to another question I've had recently. What defines the separation between fedora.redhat.com and fedoraproject.org? I wonder if it's confusing to have both sites and if fedoraproject.org shouldn't be the only/primary site here. It sounds like the plan for plone is not to replace the wiki - i.e. we'd still use moin-moin but some content would be in plone and some in moin moin. Do we need further discussion around better defining the need for plone, and what would be accomplished by having both systems in place? Or how do we define what goes where? This could also be a good place to discuss fedora.redhat.com.. Or maybe this is more of a mktg question. In any case, I can help with the needed upgrades, etc. Sam > Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Sep 24 16:14:22 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:44:22 +0530 Subject: plone? In-Reply-To: <1159113874.393.7.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1159113159.393.1.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> <4516AA80.1040107@fedoraproject.org> <1159113874.393.7.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4516AEDE.5090402@fedoraproject.org> Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > On Sun, 2006-09-24 at 21:25 +0530, Rahul wrote: >> Sam Folk-Williams wrote: >>> iirc there was talk months ago about switching from moin moin to plone. >>> i wasn't privy to the discussions around that, i just heard it was >>> happening. is that still planned? do we need help with that? or, was >>> that idea scrapped? >>> >>> sam >>> >> We still need help. >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/PloneToDo >> > > OK - reading that page brings me to another question I've had recently. > What defines the separation between fedora.redhat.com and > fedoraproject.org? I wonder if it's confusing to have both sites and if > fedoraproject.org shouldn't be the only/primary site here. fedora.redhat.com is dying. It even says so in the frontpage of that website that we are transiting into fedoraproject.org as the only site. > > It sounds like the plan for plone is not to replace the wiki - i.e. we'd > still use moin-moin but some content would be in plone and some in moin > moin. Do we need further discussion around better defining the need for > plone, and what would be accomplished by having both systems in place? > Or how do we define what goes where? This could also be a good place to > discuss fedora.redhat.com.. > > Or maybe this is more of a mktg question. In any case, I can help with > the needed upgrades, etc. We basically need to move off all the infrastructure stuff from fedora.redhat.com, launch fedoraproject.org with Plone taking care of the frontpage with a nice design and good content and then take it from there. Detailed analysis of what is required in the wiki vs cms is *not* something we need to do now. It just delays the process. Get the basics then and we will figure out the rest later. If you are going to interested in helping out, just talk to the people referred to in that page. I dont want to see yet another long discussion on this. Just do it. Rahul From samfw at redhat.com Sun Sep 24 16:30:48 2006 From: samfw at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:30:48 -0400 Subject: plone? In-Reply-To: <4516AEDE.5090402@fedoraproject.org> References: <1159113159.393.1.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> <4516AA80.1040107@fedoraproject.org> <1159113874.393.7.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> <4516AEDE.5090402@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1159115448.393.10.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> On Sun, 2006-09-24 at 21:44 +0530, Rahul wrote: > If you are going to interested in helping out, just talk to the people > referred to in that page. I dont want to see yet another long discussion > on this. Just do it. > Alrighty then, will do. Like I said, I wasn't privy to earlier discussions, so I apologize for bringing up discussion points that have already been discussed. Thanks for the info. Sam > > Rahul > From kwade at redhat.com Sun Sep 24 21:21:56 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 14:21:56 -0700 Subject: plone? In-Reply-To: <1159115448.393.10.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1159113159.393.1.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> <4516AA80.1040107@fedoraproject.org> <1159113874.393.7.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> <4516AEDE.5090402@fedoraproject.org> <1159115448.393.10.camel@samfw.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1159132916.10103.88.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2006-09-24 at 12:30 -0400, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > On Sun, 2006-09-24 at 21:44 +0530, Rahul wrote: > > If you are going to interested in helping out, just talk to the people > > referred to in that page. I dont want to see yet another long discussion > > on this. Just do it. > > > Alrighty then, will do. Like I said, I wasn't privy to earlier > discussions, so I apologize for bringing up discussion points that have > already been discussed. No worries. :) And help is definitely the catching point; FC6 has been distracting of late for many people, and we always decide to "wait until after the release." The deal with Plone + Moin is like this: Plone - * Gives us a nice front page that we cannot do with Moin (tried and the best we have is on the front of fp.o currently) * Gives us a way to publish formal documentation with a workflow to ensure that it is properly written, edited, and so forth; current system on f.r.c is too manual, requires too much training, is antiquated, and based on PHP, which FInfrastructure does not support Wiki - * Project based documentation (most likely, since people just do it) * FDP drafting (Docs/Drafts) * Docs/Beats So, Plone serves the front page, and the Wiki + Wiki content + Plone content is linked from there. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Sep 25 01:50:07 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 18:50:07 -0700 Subject: [update] FC6 release notes POT Message-ID: <1159149007.10103.91.camel@erato.phig.org> This is an update that the release notes POT is already a few hours late in being ready, and still has some hours to go. I hope to have it all done by Midnight my time, which is 0700 UTC (7 hours late). Apologies for the delay and the delayed status update. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From splinux at fedoraproject.org Mon Sep 25 04:59:47 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 06:59:47 +0200 Subject: Self-Introduction: Adam M. Dutko In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Welcome ;-) 2006/9/24, Adam Dutko : > > Adam M. Dutko > > I live in Cleveland, OH with my wife, two dogs and two cats. I work as a > Linux Systems Administrator for a large Chemical Coatings company and am > currently pursuing my MBA in Operations Management (subject to change) and > my M.S. in Software Engineering. My professional and personal interests > (in no particular order) revolve around open source, computing, programming, > brewing beer, sewing my own clothes, bike riding, rowing, emedded systems > and wireless sensor networks. While working at a NASA site one summer as > anintern I was fortunate enough to be exposed to RedHat 7.3. From that > point I became an avid user of the Linux kernel, Open Source and RedHat > related distributions. I was once a paying member of the RedHat community > when the "RedHat" personal distribution was still around, and I use RHEL at > work. With that said, I would now like give back to the community that's > given me so much over the years: a job and a hobby. My primary goals are to > improve upon my writing skills while helping the Fedora community. > Considering I am a student and work full-time, I will make contributions on > a sporadic basis. When I'm finished with school I plan on starting an open > source company based out of Cleveland, OH. I'm not exactly sure what type > of documentation I would like to do, but I do have programming, > administration and "soft experience" so please let me know what area in the > Fedora community needs the most help. Since this is my first attempt at > writing documentation I unfortunately do not have any past projects to tell > you about. > > pub 1024D/B8A783EE 2006-09-24 [expires: 2007-09-24] > Key fingerprint = E095 6B64 8E94 A021 379B 9A5E 1724 3CEE B8A7 83EE > uid Adam M. Dutko (Developer) < gnome at dux-linux.org> > sub 2048g/B1698F91 2006-09-24 [expires: 2007-09-24] > > Please e-mail if you would like to know more. > > -Adam > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Sep 25 12:50:53 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 05:50:53 -0700 Subject: FC6 release notes POT file committed Message-ID: <1159188653.10103.106.camel@erato.phig.org> Just a few minutes ago Paul committed the final POT file for the FC6 release notes that are going to appear in the ISO. This release notes looks simply fantastic. Congratulations to all for your hard work. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Mon Sep 25 14:28:19 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:28:19 +0100 Subject: Self-Introduction: Adam M. Dutko In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4517E783.9090102@glezos.com> O/H Adam Dutko ??????: > Adam M. Dutko > > I live in Cleveland, OH with my wife, two dogs and two cats. I work as > a Linux Systems Administrator for a large Chemical Coatings company and > am currently pursuing my MBA in Operations Management (subject to > change) and my M.S. in Software Engineering. My professional and > personal interests (in no particular order) revolve around open source, > computing, programming, brewing beer, sewing my own clothes, bike > riding, rowing, emedded systems and wireless sensor networks. While > working at a NASA site one summer as anintern I was fortunate enough to > be exposed to RedHat 7.3. From that point I became an avid user of the > Linux kernel, Open Source and RedHat related distributions. I was once > a paying member of the RedHat community when the "RedHat" personal > distribution was still around, and I use RHEL at work. With that said, > I would now like give back to the community that's given me so much over > the years: a job and a hobby. My primary goals are to improve upon my > writing skills while helping the Fedora community. Considering I am a > student and work full-time, I will make contributions on a sporadic > basis. When I'm finished with school I plan on starting an open source > company based out of Cleveland, OH. I'm not exactly sure what type of > documentation I would like to do, but I do have programming, > administration and "soft experience" so please let me know what area in > the Fedora community needs the most help. Since this is my first > attempt at writing documentation I unfortunately do not have any past > projects to tell you about. Adam, *welcome* to the docs project! You can read all about it at our wiki pages: * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs There are sections about what needs to be done, our current attentions, future plans etc. Currently we are in a hurry to finish everything for FC6. So, take a look around and step up to help at a guide/doc you would like to! :) Any thoughts, suggestions, ideas are welcome! Welcome again. -dim > > pub 1024D/B8A783EE 2006-09-24 [expires: 2007-09-24] > Key fingerprint = E095 6B64 8E94 A021 379B 9A5E 1724 3CEE B8A7 83EE > uid Adam M. Dutko (Developer) < gnome at dux-linux.org > > > sub 2048g/B1698F91 2006-09-24 [expires: 2007-09-24] > > Please e-mail if you would like to know more. > > -Adam > -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From kwade at redhat.com Mon Sep 25 22:15:15 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:15:15 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: problem with RELEASE-NOTES.pot, hold translations] Message-ID: <1159222516.10103.193.camel@erato.phig.org> FYI, we are pulling and fixing the RELEASE-NOTES.pot. Fortunately it hadn't been loaded into i18n.redhat.com yet. The XML between test3 and final that I committed last night was wildly different. Previously we had been fixing all the tags from the Wiki, but I didn't this time, not realizing this would throw many entries into fuzzy or untranslated state. - Karsten -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Karsten Wade Reply-To: kwade at redhat.com, Fedora Translation Project List To: fedora-trans-list at redhat.com Subject: problem with RELEASE-NOTES.pot, hold translations Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:09:16 -0700 Because of a misunderstanding, the XML that made the RELEASE-NOTES.pot file for the final FC6 is very different from the test3 version. This is going to cause a number of entries to be marked as untranslated or fuzzy that do not have different content, but the XML has changed. Because the incorrect POT file has not been loaded into i18n.redhat.com for translation, we are pulling that file. DO NOT translate the current RELEASE-NOTES.pot. WAIT until we check in a new one and send email back to this list. This is going to be done in the next 24 hours. If you know what you are doing and feel you can proceed with the current POT file, please go ahead and translate what you can. Be aware that many of the inline XML markup is going to change, that is, most of the foo lines are going to be changed in the old and new content. Thanks - Karsten -- Fedora-trans-list mailing list Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 26 14:09:50 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:39:50 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: Fedora Core 5 Linux Man Pages] Message-ID: <451934AE.2020005@fedoraproject.org> Hi This is something we should have done. Rahul -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Erich Carlson Subject: Fedora Core 5 Linux Man Pages Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:07:41 -0500 Size: 3739 URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 28 20:14:52 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 13:14:52 -0700 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker Message-ID: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> Dimitris: We just got a last-minute idea from Max Spevack et al, to put a hit tracker on the splash page. A box in the upper corner/somewhere like below[1]. I know this is going to be untranslated, but we can catch it in an update to the package, and many people won't get a translated page, anyway. The value this gives the whole project is very worth the effort. [1] Please add the following: ######### Begin Box #################################################

Hey, Fedora users! We are trying to figure out how many desktop users we have. We are using a simple image to count the number of hits we get from unique IP addresses. We are not tracking any identifiable information.

This image right here:

blue tracking dot

...is being used for that purpose. If you see the image, that means you are online, and you have been counted. If you do not see the image, it is because you are offline, and the image cannot load.

Why is this important? Because we need to know how many users we have, which helps help us fund innovations to Fedora.

######### End Box #################################################### How does that sound? Any alteration suggestions? Thanks - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 28 20:19:37 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 01:49:37 +0530 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <451C2E59.6050402@fedoraproject.org> Karsten Wade wrote: > Dimitris: > > We just got a last-minute idea from Max Spevack et al, to put a hit > tracker on the splash page. A box in the upper corner/somewhere like > below[1]. > > I know this is going to be untranslated, but we can catch it in an > update to the package, and many people won't get a translated page, > anyway. The value this gives the whole project is very worth the > effort. > > [1] Please add the following: > > ######### Begin Box ################################################# >
>

> Hey, Fedora users! We are trying to figure out how many desktop users > we have. We are using a simple image to count the number of hits we get > from unique IP addresses. We are not tracking any identifiable > information. >

>

> This image right here: >

> blue > tracking dot >

> ...is being used for that purpose. If you see the image, that means > you are online, and you have been counted. If you do not see the image, > it is because you are offline, and the image cannot load. >

>

> Why is this important? Because we need to know how many users we have, > which helps help us fund innovations to Fedora. >

>
> ######### End Box #################################################### > > How does that sound? Any alteration suggestions? > Max should probably announce it elsewhere like fedora-devel list and discuss this for transparency. I dont see any harm in doing it but it's important that we dont do this discretely. Moreover the note on innovations in not very clear to me. It would be better to make our intentions more explicit. Rahul From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Sep 28 21:21:10 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <451C2E59.6050402@fedoraproject.org> References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <451C2E59.6050402@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Why is this important? Because we need to know how many users we have, >> which helps help us fund innovations to Fedora.

>> >> ######### End Box #################################################### change it to "Because we need to know more about what *types* of users we have, so that we can have a better idea of what sorts of innovations will be interesting to those users." >> Max should probably announce it elsewhere like fedora-devel list and >> discuss this for transparency. I dont see any harm in doing it but it's >> important that we dont do this discretely. Moreover the note on >> innovations in not very clear to me. It would be better to make our >> intentions more explicit. I'm not announcing anything until I know that it's actually in. Once it is *in*, I'll be happy to send something out about it. --Max From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 28 21:24:21 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 02:54:21 +0530 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <451C2E59.6050402@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <451C3D85.9060603@fedoraproject.org> Max Spevack wrote: > On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >>> Why is this important? Because we need to know how many users we >>> have, which helps help us fund innovations to Fedora.

>>> >>> ######### End Box #################################################### > > > change it to "Because we need to know more about what *types* of users > we have, so that we can have a better idea of what sorts of innovations > will be interesting to those users." > How will a hit counter tell us what types of users they are? Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 28 21:53:26 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:53:26 -0700 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <451C3D85.9060603@fedoraproject.org> References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <451C2E59.6050402@fedoraproject.org> <451C3D85.9060603@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1159480406.13299.155.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 02:54 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Max Spevack wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > >>> Why is this important? Because we need to know how many users we > >>> have, which helps help us fund innovations to Fedora.

> >>> > >>> ######### End Box #################################################### > > > > > > change it to "Because we need to know more about what *types* of users > > we have, so that we can have a better idea of what sorts of innovations > > will be interesting to those users." > > > > How will a hit counter tell us what types of users they are? Right, that is now more ambiguous. What is wrong with 'innovations'? It seems intentionally vague because there is not a cabal deciding what we should innovate into. How about just: "Why is this important. Because we need to know how many users we have to make better decisions for the project." etc. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 28 21:55:15 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 03:25:15 +0530 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1159480406.13299.155.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <451C2E59.6050402@fedoraproject.org> <451C3D85.9060603@fedoraproject.org> <1159480406.13299.155.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <451C44C3.9090802@fedoraproject.org> Karsten Wade wrote: > Right, that is now more ambiguous. > > What is wrong with 'innovations'? It seems intentionally vague because > there is not a cabal deciding what we should innovate into. How about > just: > > "Why is this important. Because we need to know how many users we have > to make better decisions for the project." > Ok. That sounds more open. Do it. Announce it. Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 28 22:15:43 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <451C3D85.9060603@fedoraproject.org> References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <451C2E59.6050402@fedoraproject.org> <451C3D85.9060603@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > How will a hit counter tell us what types of users they are? It will tell us they're desktop users. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Sep 29 02:33:42 2006 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 03:33:42 +0100 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <451C8606.8070606@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > Dimitris: > > We just got a last-minute idea from Max Spevack et al, to put a hit > tracker on the splash page. A box in the upper corner/somewhere like > below[1]. Karsten, Max, et al, I believe the addition of such a tracker (solution 1) will have a bad impact on the image of the Fedora Project on our users, which will not be worth the information gained from this addition. I'll try to elaborate my thoughts. Trackers ======== Such trackers were always faced with bad criticism. This takes place with every equipment used for tracking: emails containing notices like "the sender asked to be notified when you read this email", cameras in the streets and shops, security checks in airports, digital IDs, RFIDs, even Credit Cards. People even feel irritated with phrases like "this conversation will be recorded for training purposes". They usually don't behave the same, even if they were guaranteed that the data will be trashed right after the event. I admit to be quite a bit irritated when I get messages from webpages saying "Hi. You are 84.9.192, you are using Firefox 1.5 on Linux" even though *I know* that my browser does expose this information. I know this is silly, but even though I know it happens, I don't like hearing it. Notifying me that it does happen makes things worse. BTW this is not a matter of conspiracy theories: It's just that I like websites that don't do this or remind me that it is done more than those which do. The user's desktop is like his digital home. It's private, it's exposed to dangers from intruders, the user is bound to it in a very special way. Applications that somehow used the Internet for a reason the company saw fit were always badly criticized from the users. I believe that's why, even today, 99% of the proprietary applications don't use the connection to the Internet to check if the software is cracked. Other solutions =============== So, the question is: Is it worth it? Well, my opinion is that it is *not* and the extra information will not be much more worth than, say, the visits to our website. But let's say it does. One approach would be to reduce the fuss about it: Add a 1x1 image somewhere on the page that comes from the net (solution 2). User won't be told so he won't have the chance to think our motivations are bad (which of course aren't). This "secret" approach will also have a bad impact on our image (this time in the media shouting about user privacy). But: a) some people will think "big deal, it's just a pixel, the guys want to count their users" and b) at least 95% of the users won't find out about it, which probably is not bad because we are not doing anything wrong. Another line of thinking (better) is that we can count users in other ways, less intrusive, just like other projects do. And, in addition, some of these ways provide more information than the tracker one. For example, we could ask the user to send us a ping during the first boot of the system (solution 3). Package `firstboot` could say something like: > We would like to count the users of Fedora. You could send us a ping which > will be more or less like saying to us "Hi guys!". Would you like to send us > a ping then? (Please do!) > > ["Hi guys!"] > > If not, you can click "Next" to continue to the next page. If we need to count more than systems that re/installed FC6, and, say, count unique users, we could have that message on top of the splash page (solution 4). Whatever the users clicks, a cookie stores her choice in a cookie so that she won't be asked again. Finally, the most useful and non-intrusive approach (solution 5) is to ask the user fill a short questionnaire. More helpful data than any other approach, less suspicious intentions. Summary of solutions -------------------- 1. Original suggestion: image on splash page with description. 2. Tiny invisible image with no description. 3. Ping from Firstboot. 4. Ping from splash (once). 5. Questionnaire from firstboot or splash. Accuracy -------- None of the solutions give has any accuracy on the number of users using Fedora. Analytically the solutions: 1,2: The image could be put in any webpage and the users with dynamic IPs would be counted as multiple users. 3: Doesn't count upgrades to FC6 and also gives option of just clicking "next". 4: Suffers like 1: multiple locations could point there and people who clear their cookies often will see the message over and over. 5: Like 4, but a bit better because the bogus calls will be fewer. Conclusion ========== To summarize a very long email (sorry): I believe users would like it better if we did not use their desktop to track anything or ask them any such question. I wasn't convinced that the value it will give the project will be worth the cost of the image of the project. I'm sorry but I feel this is a very delicate matter that touches sensitive chords and fragile nerves. Actions like these sometimes make people feel that their privacy was disturbed or their personal normal lives intruded for third-party benefits. If I had to choose from the solutions, I would go for the most "human"/less intrusive one, #5 (the questionnaire). Sorry again for the length of the email. -dim > I know this is going to be untranslated, but we can catch it in an > update to the package, and many people won't get a translated page, > anyway. The value this gives the whole project is very worth the > effort. > > [1] Please add the following: > > ######### Begin Box ################################################# >
>

> Hey, Fedora users! We are trying to figure out how many desktop users > we have. We are using a simple image to count the number of hits we get > from unique IP addresses. We are not tracking any identifiable > information. >

>

> This image right here: >

> blue > tracking dot >

> ...is being used for that purpose. If you see the image, that means > you are online, and you have been counted. If you do not see the image, > it is because you are offline, and the image cannot load. >

>

> Why is this important? Because we need to know how many users we have, > which helps help us fund innovations to Fedora. >

>
> ######### End Box #################################################### > > How does that sound? Any alteration suggestions? > > Thanks - Karsten -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From cpanceac at gmail.com Fri Sep 29 03:33:23 2006 From: cpanceac at gmail.com (cornel panceac) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:33:23 +0300 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <451C8606.8070606@glezos.com> References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <451C8606.8070606@glezos.com> Message-ID: since dimitri's email was too long for 6am :) , i've skiped most of it but, imho:his idea to let the user choose it's great, and, it's very important to let the user read any time after, what happened when he clicked, hence, if we put the link(s) on the start page, we can let him click whenever he wants to ... On 9/29/06, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > > Dimitris: > > > > We just got a last-minute idea from Max Spevack et al, to put a hit > > tracker on the splash page. A box in the upper corner/somewhere like > > below[1]. > > Karsten, Max, et al, > > I believe the addition of such a tracker (solution 1) will have a bad impact on > the image of the Fedora Project on our users, which will not be worth the > information gained from this addition. > > I'll try to elaborate my thoughts. > > > Trackers > ======== > > Such trackers were always faced with bad criticism. This takes place with every > equipment used for tracking: emails containing notices like "the sender asked to > be notified when you read this email", cameras in the streets and shops, > security checks in airports, digital IDs, RFIDs, even Credit Cards. People even > feel irritated with phrases like "this conversation will be recorded for > training purposes". They usually don't behave the same, even if they were > guaranteed that the data will be trashed right after the event. > > I admit to be quite a bit irritated when I get messages from webpages saying > "Hi. You are 84.9.192, you are using Firefox 1.5 on Linux" even though *I know* > that my browser does expose this information. I know this is silly, but even > though I know it happens, I don't like hearing it. Notifying me that it does > happen makes things worse. > > BTW this is not a matter of conspiracy theories: It's just that I like websites > that don't do this or remind me that it is done more than those which do. > > The user's desktop is like his digital home. It's private, it's exposed to > dangers from intruders, the user is bound to it in a very special way. > Applications that somehow used the Internet for a reason the company saw fit > were always badly criticized from the users. I believe that's why, even today, > 99% of the proprietary applications don't use the connection to the Internet to > check if the software is cracked. > > > Other solutions > =============== > > So, the question is: Is it worth it? > > Well, my opinion is that it is *not* and the extra information will not be much > more worth than, say, the visits to our website. > > But let's say it does. > > One approach would be to reduce the fuss about it: Add a 1x1 image somewhere on > the page that comes from the net (solution 2). User won't be told so he won't > have the chance to think our motivations are bad (which of course aren't). This > "secret" approach will also have a bad impact on our image (this time in the > media shouting about user privacy). But: a) some people will think "big deal, > it's just a pixel, the guys want to count their users" and b) at least 95% of > the users won't find out about it, which probably is not bad because we are not > doing anything wrong. > > Another line of thinking (better) is that we can count users in other ways, less > intrusive, just like other projects do. And, in addition, some of these ways > provide more information than the tracker one. > > For example, we could ask the user to send us a ping during the first boot of > the system (solution 3). Package `firstboot` could say something like: > > > We would like to count the users of Fedora. You could send us a ping which > > will be more or less like saying to us "Hi guys!". Would you like to send us > > a ping then? (Please do!) > > > > ["Hi guys!"] > > > > If not, you can click "Next" to continue to the next page. > > If we need to count more than systems that re/installed FC6, and, say, count > unique users, we could have that message on top of the splash page (solution 4). > Whatever the users clicks, a cookie stores her choice in a cookie so that she > won't be asked again. > > Finally, the most useful and non-intrusive approach (solution 5) is to ask the > user fill a short questionnaire. More helpful data than any other approach, less > suspicious intentions. > > > Summary of solutions > -------------------- > > 1. Original suggestion: image on splash page with description. > 2. Tiny invisible image with no description. > 3. Ping from Firstboot. > 4. Ping from splash (once). > 5. Questionnaire from firstboot or splash. > > > Accuracy > -------- > > None of the solutions give has any accuracy on the number of users using Fedora. > Analytically the solutions: > > 1,2: The image could be put in any webpage and the users with dynamic IPs would > be counted as multiple users. > > 3: Doesn't count upgrades to FC6 and also gives option of just clicking "next". > > 4: Suffers like 1: multiple locations could point there and people who clear > their cookies often will see the message over and over. > > 5: Like 4, but a bit better because the bogus calls will be fewer. > > > Conclusion > ========== > > To summarize a very long email (sorry): I believe users would like it better if > we did not use their desktop to track anything or ask them any such question. I > wasn't convinced that the value it will give the project will be worth the cost > of the image of the project. > > I'm sorry but I feel this is a very delicate matter that touches sensitive > chords and fragile nerves. Actions like these sometimes make people feel that > their privacy was disturbed or their personal normal lives intruded for > third-party benefits. > > If I had to choose from the solutions, I would go for the most "human"/less > intrusive one, #5 (the questionnaire). > > > Sorry again for the length of the email. > > -dim > > > > I know this is going to be untranslated, but we can catch it in an > > update to the package, and many people won't get a translated page, > > anyway. The value this gives the whole project is very worth the > > effort. > > > > [1] Please add the following: > > > > ######### Begin Box ################################################# > >
> >

> > Hey, Fedora users! We are trying to figure out how many desktop users > > we have. We are using a simple image to count the number of hits we get > > from unique IP addresses. We are not tracking any identifiable > > information. > >

> >

> > This image right here: > >

> > blue > > tracking dot > >

> > ...is being used for that purpose. If you see the image, that means > > you are online, and you have been counted. If you do not see the image, > > it is because you are offline, and the image cannot load. > >

> >

> > Why is this important? Because we need to know how many users we have, > > which helps help us fund innovations to Fedora. > >

> >
> > ######### End Box #################################################### > > > > How does that sound? Any alteration suggestions? > > > > Thanks - Karsten > > -- > Dimitris Glezos > Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B > http://dimitris.glezos.com/ > > "He who gives up functionality for ease of use > loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) > -- > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From stickster at gmail.com Fri Sep 29 22:04:27 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:04:27 -0400 Subject: Release notes on ISO Message-ID: <1159567467.5606.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Re: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=208555 We've had several complaints about links "not working" in the release notes, since the GtkHtml3 renderer has no way of finding external href locations. This will not change any time soon, I would imagine; I'm sure footprint size is one of many concerns that dictated its use. Links cannot be expected to work in any case because network connectivity is not a given. It's too late for FC6 at this point, but perhaps for FC7 we should think about providing an "alternate HTML" build that embeds the stylesheet and strikes elements in favor of a different markup that alludes to their content without confusing users as to whether they should "work." The above Bugzilla shows that even providing external style sheets and images (PNGs for admonitions, for example) won't work. We will eventually have to figure out how to munge our release notes into a more polished form. If anyone has ideas, feel free to post them, but please also bugzilla them against Fedora Documentation -> release-notes for tracking post-FC6. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Sep 30 03:04:27 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:04:27 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Magnus Larsson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1159585468.19689.94.camel@erato.phig.org> A belated welcome! We have been very lax lately with our welcomes and meetings and such. Probably all corruption starts with the leadership, so I take responsibility. :) On Fri, 2006-08-25 at 02:07 -0400, Magnus Larsson wrote: > I want to translate the Fedora tools into Swedish. Then write some of > the guides if time permits. Sounds good. Looks like we could use a Swedish version of the Translation Quick Start Guide: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/translation-quick-start-guide/ > I have good computer skills but not really a technical writer. I know > how the software works. As long as we only have to help teach you one of the two, we should have a good time. :) Thanks for your help so far, look forward to working with you. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From docs-list at fedoralinks.org Sat Sep 30 05:22:49 2006 From: docs-list at fedoralinks.org (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 00:22:49 -0500 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <451C8606.8070606@glezos.com> References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <451C8606.8070606@glezos.com> Message-ID: <451DFF29.9050202@fedoralinks.org> Dimitris Glezos wrote: > Karsten, Max, et al, > > I believe the addition of such a tracker (solution 1) will have a bad impact on > the image of the Fedora Project on our users, which will not be worth the > information gained from this addition. > > I'll try to elaborate my thoughts. > > > Trackers > ======== > > Such trackers were always faced with bad criticism. This takes place with every > equipment used for tracking: emails containing notices like "the sender asked to > be notified when you read this email", cameras in the streets and shops, > security checks in airports, digital IDs, RFIDs, even Credit Cards. People even > feel irritated with phrases like "this conversation will be recorded for > training purposes". They usually don't behave the same, even if they were > guaranteed that the data will be trashed right after the event. > > I admit to be quite a bit irritated when I get messages from webpages saying > "Hi. You are 84.9.192, you are using Firefox 1.5 on Linux" even though *I know* > that my browser does expose this information. I know this is silly, but even > though I know it happens, I don't like hearing it. Notifying me that it does > happen makes things worse. > > BTW this is not a matter of conspiracy theories: It's just that I like websites > that don't do this or remind me that it is done more than those which do. > > The user's desktop is like his digital home. It's private, it's exposed to > dangers from intruders, the user is bound to it in a very special way. > Applications that somehow used the Internet for a reason the company saw fit > were always badly criticized from the users. I believe that's why, even today, > 99% of the proprietary applications don't use the connection to the Internet to > check if the software is cracked. > > > Other solutions > =============== > > So, the question is: Is it worth it? > > Well, my opinion is that it is *not* and the extra information will not be much > more worth than, say, the visits to our website. > > But let's say it does. > > One approach would be to reduce the fuss about it: Add a 1x1 image somewhere on > the page that comes from the net (solution 2). User won't be told so he won't > have the chance to think our motivations are bad (which of course aren't). This > "secret" approach will also have a bad impact on our image (this time in the > media shouting about user privacy). But: a) some people will think "big deal, > it's just a pixel, the guys want to count their users" and b) at least 95% of > the users won't find out about it, which probably is not bad because we are not > doing anything wrong. > > Another line of thinking (better) is that we can count users in other ways, less > intrusive, just like other projects do. And, in addition, some of these ways > provide more information than the tracker one. > > For example, we could ask the user to send us a ping during the first boot of > the system (solution 3). Package `firstboot` could say something like: > > If we need to count more than systems that re/installed FC6, and, say, count > unique users, we could have that message on top of the splash page (solution 4). > Whatever the users clicks, a cookie stores her choice in a cookie so that she > won't be asked again. > > Finally, the most useful and non-intrusive approach (solution 5) is to ask the > user fill a short questionnaire. More helpful data than any other approach, less > suspicious intentions. > > > Summary of solutions > -------------------- > > 1. Original suggestion: image on splash page with description. > 2. Tiny invisible image with no description. > 3. Ping from Firstboot. > 4. Ping from splash (once). > 5. Questionnaire from firstboot or splash. > > > Accuracy > -------- > > None of the solutions give has any accuracy on the number of users using Fedora. > Analytically the solutions: > > 1,2: The image could be put in any webpage and the users with dynamic IPs would > be counted as multiple users. > > 3: Doesn't count upgrades to FC6 and also gives option of just clicking "next". > > 4: Suffers like 1: multiple locations could point there and people who clear > their cookies often will see the message over and over. > > 5: Like 4, but a bit better because the bogus calls will be fewer. > > > Conclusion > ========== > > To summarize a very long email (sorry): I believe users would like it better if > we did not use their desktop to track anything or ask them any such question. I > wasn't convinced that the value it will give the project will be worth the cost > of the image of the project. > > I'm sorry but I feel this is a very delicate matter that touches sensitive > chords and fragile nerves. Actions like these sometimes make people feel that > their privacy was disturbed or their personal normal lives intruded for > third-party benefits. > > If I had to choose from the solutions, I would go for the most "human"/less > intrusive one, #5 (the questionnaire). > > > Sorry again for the length of the email. > > -dim > Note to all we do not even have a "final" Privacy Policy [1} on the Wiki yet. [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Docs Projects FDSCo http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject From docs-list at fedoralinks.org Sat Sep 30 05:17:05 2006 From: docs-list at fedoralinks.org (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 00:17:05 -0500 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <451C2E59.6050402@fedoraproject.org> <451C3D85.9060603@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <451DFDD1.5070302@fedoralinks.org> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> How will a hit counter tell us what types of users they are? > > It will tell us they're desktop users. > > --g > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org > Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors > ------------------------------------------------------------- I can not support this idea, IMO it is to late in the release process to work out all the logistics and potential problems in the time we have. I feel that the potential problems and community repercussions will far out weigh the minor benefits from a "half assed" attempt at getting to know our user base. If we have a vote in this I say "NO" I feel that if we would like to gather information about our user base we should think about the bigger picture and create a survey for the FC7 release. This may allow us to get real information and opinions from the users with out the risk of offending anyone. Bob P.S. My opinions are mine alone and do not reflect the opinions of any group I may be a part of. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Docs Projects FDSCo http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject From samfw at redhat.com Sat Sep 30 15:05:46 2006 From: samfw at redhat.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 11:05:46 -0400 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <451DFDD1.5070302@fedoralinks.org> References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <451C2E59.6050402@fedoraproject.org> <451C3D85.9060603@fedoraproject.org> <451DFDD1.5070302@fedoralinks.org> Message-ID: <1159628746.953.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-09-30 at 00:17 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > >> How will a hit counter tell us what types of users they are? > > > > It will tell us they're desktop users. > > > > --g > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org > > Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > I can not support this idea, IMO it is to late in the release process to > work out all the logistics and potential problems in the time we have. I > feel that the potential problems and community repercussions will far > out weigh the minor benefits from a "half assed" attempt at getting to > know our user base. > > If we have a vote in this I say "NO" > > I feel that if we would like to gather information about our user base > we should think about the bigger picture and create a survey for the FC7 > release. This may allow us to get real information and opinions from the > users with out the risk of offending anyone. > +1 on this. I think this is too rushed and un-thought-out. I don't really see how this could really be such a benefit, but I do see the potential for confusion/offense among some users. Personally I wouldn't care, but objectively speaking I could see how people would think it was a little questionable. So, I vote "no" as well. If we start working now, we can have something much better for FC7, which really isn't far away. Sam > Bob > > P.S. My opinions are mine alone and do not reflect the opinions of any > group I may be a part of. > > -- > Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen > gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 > Fedora Docs Projects FDSCo http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > From stickster at gmail.com Sat Sep 30 17:01:56 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 13:01:56 -0400 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1159628746.953.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <451C2E59.6050402@fedoraproject.org> <451C3D85.9060603@fedoraproject.org> <451DFDD1.5070302@fedoralinks.org> <1159628746.953.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1159635716.15089.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-09-30 at 11:05 -0400, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > On Sat, 2006-09-30 at 00:17 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > > >> How will a hit counter tell us what types of users they are? > > > > > > It will tell us they're desktop users. > > > > I can not support this idea, IMO it is to late in the release process to > > work out all the logistics and potential problems in the time we have. I > > feel that the potential problems and community repercussions will far > > out weigh the minor benefits from a "half assed" attempt at getting to > > know our user base. > > > > If we have a vote in this I say "NO" > > > > I feel that if we would like to gather information about our user base > > we should think about the bigger picture and create a survey for the FC7 > > release. This may allow us to get real information and opinions from the > > users with out the risk of offending anyone. > > > > +1 on this. I think this is too rushed and un-thought-out. I don't > really see how this could really be such a benefit, but I do see the > potential for confusion/offense among some users. Personally I wouldn't > care, but objectively speaking I could see how people would think it was > a little questionable. > > So, I vote "no" as well. If we start working now, we can have something > much better for FC7, which really isn't far away. And in fairness, we can turn out an update to fedora-release-notes package with this kind of material during the FC6 cycle if no one wants to wait until FC7. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Sep 30 19:25:22 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 12:25:22 -0700 Subject: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <451C8606.8070606@glezos.com> References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <451C8606.8070606@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1159644323.19689.126.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 03:33 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > > Dimitris: > > > > We just got a last-minute idea from Max Spevack et al, to put a hit > > tracker on the splash page. A box in the upper corner/somewhere like > > below[1]. > > Karsten, Max, et al, > > I believe the addition of such a tracker (solution 1) will have a bad impact on > the image of the Fedora Project on our users, which will not be worth the > information gained from this addition. > > I'll try to elaborate my thoughts. Dimitris, thanks for your well written response. I tend to agree with your analysis. The intentions of getting a rough count of desktop users are obviously the best, but the timing is too short to work out all the ramifications (social, technological, etc.). In American football, this is where we punt, meaning to kick the idea to the next release. If we had just a bit more time, we could have a button to click to get us some rough numbers, but timing is just too close. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tombo at adamantio.net Sat Sep 30 19:55:30 2006 From: tombo at adamantio.net (Francesco Tombolini) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:55:30 +0200 Subject: release-notes/devel/po it.po,1.8,1.9 In-Reply-To: <200609301938.k8UJcNh0022480@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> References: <200609301938.k8UJcNh0022480@cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200609302155.34990.tombo@adamantio.net> I'm sorry, this file is not complete and can be overwritten, when required, with the one that I have committed on i18n.redhat.com. 100% completed at status page. I commit it here by mistake, sorry for the noise. Ciao Alle 21:38, sabato 30 settembre 2006, Francesco Tombolini ha scritto: > Update of /cvs/docs/release-notes/devel/po > In directory cvs-int.fedora.redhat.com:/tmp/cvs-serv22457 > > Modified Files: > ????????it.po > Log Message: > completed -- Francesco Tombolini Key fingerprint = EDA9 7504 AA93 CEFC 5990 1356 8584 6B05 F140 5F73 http://www.adamantio.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: