FDSCo Meeting 2007-04-29 IRC log

[John Babich]

12:10 < stickster> <meeting>
12:10 < BobJensen> I say go for it
12:10 < stickster> Hi everybody!
12:11 < jmbuser> hello
12:11 < stickster> Present right now are stickster, BobJensen, and
jmbuser; couf will be along shortly, and quaid may amble in at some
point
12:11 < BobJensen> Greetings
12:11 < stickster> Item: release notes status
12:11 < stickster> So we had a successful drop to the L10N folks, and
translations are proceeding apace.
12:12 < stickster> I dumped an update for the postats (and a new, less
locally-dependent script) on the wiki last night:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Translation/Statistics
12:12 < jmbuser> stickster: Congrats
12:12 < stickster> The deadline is 2359 UTC on May 02 2007, so about 3.5
days left
12:13 < kushal> stickster, have  a question ?
12:13 < stickster> Several locales are completely done, not as many as
we'd like but fine work so far
12:13 < stickster> kushal: go
12:13 < kushal> stickster, is 100% is required to be in ISO ?
12:14 < kushal> l10n
12:14 < quaid> oi
12:14 < kushal> EOF
12:14 < stickster> kushal: For release notes, it will probably be
something in the 90% range
12:14 < BobJensen> We have used 90% in the past
12:14 < stickster> kushal: If it's not that high, you can still get an
entry in the Web-only release that comes a week or two afterward
12:14 < kushal> stickster, and other pages like homepage, readme
12:15 < kushal> stickster, I am only guy here for bn_IN :)
12:15 < stickster> kushal: We are going to do a more proactive job of
updating the fedora-release-notes package this release cycle
12:15 < kushal> stickster, will try to be in 905
12:16 < stickster> So if it's not ready for the ISO, you will still be
able to get a later release with a new RPM
12:16  * couf is alive
12:16 < kushal> s/905/90%
12:16 < stickster> The problem is having a half-done translation on the
installation program does not look very attractive
12:16 < kushal> stickster, Yes
12:16 < stickster> But if the goal is functionality for later spins
including updates, we can just make a new RPM later including the new
translations
12:17 < kushal> I will do my best
12:17 < stickster> kushal: we know you will -- much appreciated
12:17 < kushal> thank you
12:17 < stickster> kushal: If you want, get the homepage and
about-fedora done first and then worry about release-notes
12:17 < quaid> now would be a good time for us to hear if there is going
to be a schedule slip for the final release; that is, one that effects
our schedule
12:17 < kushal> stickster, both done
12:18 < vpv> will release-notes get into ISO if it completely translated
but about-fedora, homepage etc. are not complete?
12:18 < kushal> stickster, readme is also covered
12:18 < stickster> kushal: as of last night I see 32/8 for your
about-fedora and 32/5 for homepage
12:18 < BobJensen> vpv: yes, they are separate modules now as I
understand it
12:19 < kushal> stickster, yes, still confused with some words :p
12:19 < stickster> vpv: Asked and answered
12:19 < kushal> stickster, those will be fixed tomorrow
12:19 < stickster> kushal: thanks
12:19 < stickster> OK, let's move on, we can pick up other L10N
questions after the meeting
12:19 < vpv> BobJensen: thanks
12:19 < stickster> quaid: +1 on schedule slip... don't know anything yet
about one
12:19 < stickster> BobJensen: +1
12:20 < glezos> hi ya all. Sorry for being late. I'll try to be around,
doing some other obligations at the same time
12:20 < stickster> glezos: HI!!
12:20 < glezos> stickster: :)
12:20 < stickster> Wow, our attendance has swelled :-)
12:20  * stickster hands gavel to quaid thinking we're done with topic
#1
12:21 < couf> yep, let's move on
12:21 < jmbuser> +1
12:21 < quaid> oh, joy!
12:22 < quaid> let's talk about them guides ...
12:22 < stickster> so... guide schedule. :-\
12:22 < stickster> I'll come right out and say we're a little behind
here.  I am working on the IG now (like, last few days)
12:22  * quaid admittedly isn't having a great insight about this.
12:23 < stickster> And I think I may be ready for the scheduled PO drop
12:23 < quaid> ok, that we can talk about
12:23 < stickster> But there are things that have happened in the distro
that I didn't even expect over the last month, which has put me further
behind :-(
12:23 < quaid> we don't want to be in the position of pushing content
for trans that isn't really ready, right?
12:23 < stickster> Correct
12:23 < couf> quaid: +1
12:24 < stickster> But we don't want a blank space for the IG for F7
eithre
12:24 < stickster> *either
12:24 < couf> any probable changes to anaconda coming (/me guesses not)
12:24 < quaid> well, IG is one thing, yes
12:24 < stickster> There's the FUG also
12:25 < quaid> we're at the time to focus all our energies on only the
FUG and FIG
12:25 < quaid> everything else, well
12:25 < stickster> I think mether has some work going on the Yum guide
12:25 < stickster> But he's doing that on the wiki, so meh
12:25 < quaid> meh
12:25  * stickster doesn't care for shepherding wiki docs anymore, too
big a PITA
12:25 < quaid> so there is a conversion back, maybe we can use the Info
for that
12:26 < stickster> Sure, depending on the extent of changes
12:26 < quaid> ok, how about we tell everyone on list that we are not
going to try to deliver anything for F7 except the relnotes modules,
FIG, FUG, and Yum guide
12:26 < couf> I'm guessing it's gonna be all new content
12:27 < quaid> and get the lead writers for those to specify right away
what help they need
12:27 < quaid> so it can get done
12:27 < stickster> I think Rahul snapped up a couple people for this
work just recently on the list (?)
12:27 < stickster> I don't know what they've done, though, since I
haven't seen much in the way of wiki commits.
12:28 < couf> I know he's got 1 or 2 guys, but not sure what's going on
there
12:28 < JonRob> he asked for help and pointed us in direction of the
"working notes"
12:28 < JonRob> (hi btw)
12:28 < JonRob> i've been waiting for a break in my schedule to get
started, and i suppose the same is true of others
12:29 < couf>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SoftwareManagementGuide/WorkingNotes
12:29  * stickster sees yumex at top of list and rolls his eyes
12:31 < couf> yeah, we should choose pirut or yumex
12:31 < jmbuser> I did the proposed topics and they certainly are not
cast in stone
12:31 < stickster> couf: pirut, clearly.
12:31 < couf> stickster: my guess, yes :)
12:31 < jmbuser> Feel free to change them as needed
12:32 < stickster> Well, let's not get into the weeds here.  Point is,
as quaid said, if work is needed somewhere, post for assistance
12:32 < stickster> We need to carry more traffic and issues to the list
12:32  * stickster is scribbling away on IG, and should be able to
handle the work there
12:33 < quaid> stickster: uh, are you sure?
12:33 < couf> stickster: thank you
12:33 < stickster> yeah, I think so
12:33 < quaid> ok
12:34 < quaid> spin up a build soon and ask for comments, perhaps
12:34 < stickster> quaid: Actually, I was just going to say....
12:34 < stickster> (and this is for everyone)
12:34 < stickster> A GREAT way of looking at current state of docs is to
use yelp, the GNOME help browser.
12:34 < stickster> Do a CVS checkout of the doc, then do "make
validate-xml-en_US"
12:35 < stickster> then run "yelp file://$PWD/en_US/<nameofdoc>.xml"
12:35 < stickster> That's how I do spot checks, it removes the need for
a build.
12:35  * couf gotta run -- dinner
12:35 < stickster> The less extra work required, the more likely it will
get done! :-D
12:35 < stickster> yelp reads DocBook automatically.  A little of the
presentation might differ, but that's trivial.
12:36 < quaid> well, you'll get more eyes with an HTTP URL :), but maybe
it's not required
12:36  * glezos is happy to note that it reads localized documents as
well.
12:36 < stickster> glezos: yup
12:36 < glezos> stickster: great info, thanks. Do send an email on the
lists about this..
12:37 < stickster> glezos: good point, will do
12:37 < glezos> much easier to proofread than a browser
12:37 < jmbuser> +1
12:40 < stickster> Anything else on this topic or is everyone napping
now?
12:41 < JonRob> so what are the immediate goals?
12:41 < stickster> JonRob: For what?
12:41 < JonRob> FUG, FIG and SIG?
12:41 < JonRob> with regard to the guides
12:41 < stickster> FIG -- none from here, I'm working on it.
12:41 < JonRob> ok
12:42 < stickster> SMG -- Rahul is in charge, please ping him on the
list
12:42 < JonRob> yeah ok
12:42 < JonRob> just thought it would be good to have it clearly laid
out
12:42 < jmbuser> I volunteered to lead the FUG - I plan to do a marathon
session if need be
12:42 < stickster> JonRob: I see two bullets on the front matter of the
SMG -- 1. check for changes in F7
12:42 < stickster> 2. see WorkingNotes for new items to add
12:43 < stickster> JonRob: Have you a working Rawhide system?
12:43 < JonRob> i plan to install test 4 once it's released
12:43 < stickster> JonRob: It was released on Thursday
12:43 < JonRob> oh i missed that one!
12:43 < JonRob> well then yes, i will do soon
12:43 < stickster> JonRob: Once yo uhave it installed, read the content
and check the instructions it gives against your system, and make
changes as needed to match reality
12:44 < JonRob> ok :D
12:44 < stickster> Once the existing material has been checked and
verified, you can move on to new stuff
12:44 < stickster> Just my opinion, maybe Rahul's is different, so I
don't want to step on his toes
12:44 < JonRob> ok sorry, i think accidentaly sidetracked things there -
wasn't my intention!
12:45 < stickster> Not a problem, just trying to emphasize that
proactivity is a good rule, it's easier to get forgiveness than
permission
12:45  * stickster says, as he mucks up CVS with hubris
12:45 < stickster> Tommy would be so proud! :-D
12:46 < jmbuser> I just got F7T4 LiveCD ISO yesterday downloaded and
burned, and plan to install to hard drive ASAP
12:46 < stickster> jmbuser: That should work fine for testing yum, I'd
think
12:46  * glezos notes that quote from stickster... a really good one..
12:47 < stickster> Make sure after you install you update yum from
Rawhide -- it just got a heck of a lot faster in the last 24 hours!
12:47 < jmbuser> stickster: ok
12:47 < stickster> jmbuser: Sorry, I think I just confused you with
JonRob, sorry
12:47 < JonRob> sure
12:47 < stickster> sorry 2x
12:47  * quaid is sorry, bit distracting here this morning
12:47 < stickster> Everyone's sorry, see?
12:48 < jmbuser> sorry
12:48 < stickster> So, there's really not much left on the agenda, just
AOB
12:48 < stickster> :_D
12:49  * glezos looked up AOB in wikipedia and wonders if it is an
acronym for 'Antyfaszystowska Organizacja Bojowa'
12:50 < JonRob> haha
12:50 < stickster> All Other Bidnez
12:50 < jmbuser> lol
12:50 < stickster> anyone?
12:50 < glezos> oh, a Q
12:51 < glezos> about l10n
12:51 < stickster> glezos: go
12:51 < jmbuser> stcikster: Can I run yum anyway?
12:51 < stickster> jmbuser: uh... sure :-)
12:51 < glezos> did we notice a decrease of docs translations in F7 or
an increase? Asking because we were worried if it would be a good idea
for Docs not to use elvis for this release
12:51 < quaid> hmmm, good question ...
12:51 < stickster> yes it is
12:52 < quaid> ha! I just threw out my fc6 checkout ...
12:52 < stickster> glezos: I can't tell you activity-related stats but
you can see from the stats on the wiki what work has been done
12:52 < quaid> but we can count PO files, right?
12:52 < stickster> sure
12:53  * quaid uses viewcvs
12:53  * stickster thinks he heard glezos volunteer to do the analysis
12:53 < stickster> s/the/an/   since we all know the old saw about stats
12:54  * glezos remembers being given the task without
volunteering... :)
12:54 < glezos> I'll do it, ok :)
12:54 < glezos> BTW. Maybe its a good time to decide how much percentage
of relnotes translation we would accept, since we have some minutes...
Last year in greek we translated everything but the eclipse and gcc
sections so, technically, we were below 95%.. but I think it was an OK
document to be published
12:54 < stickster> I think 90% is a good mark
12:55 < quaid> ah, good point there
12:55 < stickster> homepage and about-fedora are very small so I think
100% is not a huge requirement
12:55 < BobJensen> stickster: +1
12:55 < glezos> stickster: if the 10% is scattered in the document, it's
a very bad mark, but if it's a particular section (especially a deep,
highly technical one), even 80% would be a good mark
12:55 < glezos> +1 for homepage & rest
12:55 < quaid> I think glezos point is a good one
12:56 < stickster> Well, we have to set a mark somewhere
12:56 < quaid> maybe we can make that guidance clear
12:56 < stickster> 80% is fine by me too, but it needs to be a mark.
12:56 < quaid> is the % mark the right one though?
12:56 < BobJensen> and the mark has to be easy to check
12:56 < stickster> I don't kow, but any mark we set 3.5 days before the
PO deadline is not a super-helpful one for translators
12:56 < stickster> s/kow/know/
12:56 < stickster> BobJensen: +1
12:56 < glezos> I suggest to lower the mark but be very precise on what
we'd like the 20% to be.
12:57 < BobJensen> raw numbers will prevent us from having to manually
browse all the translations
12:57 < glezos> Take a look at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats
12:57 < stickster> BobJensen: and... +1 again
12:58 < BobJensen> if some translation is below that but the translator
had to leave out a section and would like a manual review I think that
perhaps we could look that way
12:58 < glezos> stickster: I agree that it's kind of late... Should have
thought of it earlier. :(
12:58 < stickster> I'm going to recuse myself from this decision, simply
because the work to enforce it is going to be beyond me this cycle.
12:59 < glezos> OTOH, sending an email saying "80% is OK as far as the
20% is a continuous section or two, of the following: ..."
12:59 < stickster> Whatever we decide, it needs to be documented on the
wiki under DocsProject/Schedule for the next release
12:59 < stickster> +email
12:59 < glezos> OK, I'll send an email
12:59 < stickster> Yeah, let's please discuss on the list before we lay
anything down
12:59 < glezos> and see what people think.. if a team believes it needs
to loosen the 90% for this release, we can talk about it.
12:59 < BobJensen> "Hey I am at 85% one or two sections are 'untouched'
but the rest is done" would be OK IMO"
13:00 < stickster> We should keep in mind the multi-release goal, though
--
13:00 < stickster> We are only 3.5 days from deadline for what goes on
the ISO.
13:00 < stickster> There's still a whole additional *3 WEEKS* for the
Web-only release notes version.
13:00 < BobJensen> right
13:01 < stickster> And we can do a post-release fedora-release-notes
package update after the fact, too
13:01 < stickster> Which we ARE going to make use of this release cycle.
13:01 < quaid> how about .... 90% or explain why we should accept it?
13:01 < quaid> so, it forces the review back on the team, if they think
they hit the mark regardless of %, then justify it to u
13:01 < stickster> Where explanation != "we have many users in <LANG>
locale"
13:01 < BobJensen> I think keeping the expectation high will make for a
better finish on the project's product
13:01 < quaid> don't make us hunt it down, etc.
13:02 < BobJensen> quaid: +1
13:02  * stickster wants to avoid any self-recriminations around here
about not getting things done on time -- we did a GREAT job getting
things out on time this release, and we allowed MORE translation time
than ever before
13:02 < quaid> glezos: does that seem fair to you?
13:03 < quaid> processes++
13:03 < glezos> quaid: didn't really understand it, sorry
13:03 < quaid> glezos: like this ...
13:04 < quaid> glezos: we send a reminder email that 90% is the mark,
but that we understand that it matters what is left untranslated in such
a case, so ...
13:04 < quaid> glezos: the reminder email says that we are going to
stick with 90%, but if a translator/team thinks they hit the mark or did
good enough
13:04 < quaid> they need to send in a "request for exception"
13:05 < quaid> and that triggers a review, so we look through the
translation and see if it is indeed good enouhg.
13:05 < glezos> OK. I guess I'll be the one handling the
exceptions...? :)
13:05 < BobJensen> we can be flexible if there is a good reason for it
13:05 < stickster> I think the decision should be made by a team of Docs
folks including glezos
13:05 < quaid> glezos: well, could be :) ... but we mainly need to find
editor help to say, "yeah, good enough"
13:06 < quaid> team approach++
13:06 < stickster> We do it *on the list*
13:06 < glezos> stickster: glad you said that. :)
13:06 < quaid> co'
13:06 < glezos> wouldn't want to tackle this alone
13:06 < stickster> right
13:06 < quaid> btw, did anyone else notice the bogus "release notes" in
the test4 announcement?
13:06 < glezos> OK, I'm writing the email now to get it over with
13:07 < stickster> Well, I wouldn't say bogus since it appears they were
compiled from our actual relnotes, but yes
13:07  * quaid wrote a kind of harsh email about that he needs to mellow
down a bit
13:07 < quaid> stickster: were they recent?
13:07 < stickster> Yes, like 24-48 hours before release apparently
13:07 < stickster> Looks like wwoods did it -- he may not be cognizant
of our processes yet
13:08 < quaid> hmmm, not for a lack of trying
13:08 < jmbuser> I thought they kind of came out of nowhere
13:08 < quaid> stickster: it looked like it contained content not in the
Beats
13:08 < stickster> hm
13:08 < stickster> Well, Rahul did a few updates over the last few days
that will be in the Web-only version, wonder if that was inclusive
13:09 < quaid> ok, I'll find a way to email wwoods without being a jerk
about it :)
13:09 < stickster> IYDM could you cc me and/or f-docs-l?
13:09 < stickster> (latter if appropriate)
13:09 < quaid> it's just, you know, we worked are arses off to get the
notes in the ISO and on the Web, and we scored one deep link in that
whole announcement and that's it
13:10 < quaid> stickster: yeah, you and jesse are on it, since it's a
release process we need to work out
13:11 < stickster> OK, I'll jump in with $0.02
13:11 < stickster> I think maybe he got the mistaken impression from our
test1-test3 process that test4 would go the same way, regardless of our
repeated statements at the top saying "real relnotes coming in
test4" :-D
13:12 < stickster> We could be real bastards and redirect the wiki page
to Docs/Beats
13:12 < JonRob> *wonders if this will all be in the meeting minutes :D
13:12 < stickster> Certainly
13:12 < stickster> We always dump an IRC log
13:13 < stickster> OK, are we about done then?
13:13  * jmbuser thinks transparency is a good thing
13:13 < quaid> yes, thanks :)
13:13  * stickster needs to jet and get some other things done, then
return to FIG
13:14 < jmbuser> +1
13:14 < stickster> not that it concerns anyone else :-D
13:14  * stickster ego--
13:16 < BobJensen> +1 to wrap it up
13:17 < jmbuser> agreed
13:18 < stickster> Someone needs to volunteer to mail log and minutes,
and post links as shown in
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes
13:19 < jmbuser> that would be me :-)
13:19 < stickster> sweet
13:19 < jmbuser> who wants to count it down?
13:20 < EvilBob> 5, 4, 3, 2, 1
13:21 < stickster> </meeting>