IRC log FDSCo 18-Mar-2007 (summary to follow separately)

[Karsten Wade]

SSIA

09:01 < quaid> <meeting>
09:01 < quaid> Agenda:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/MeetingAgenda
09:01 < quaid> :)
09:02 < stickster> Good $TIMEOFDAY, everyone
09:02 < stickster> First up: GSoC
09:02 < quaid> lots of new energy there this week :)
09:03 < couf> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode
09:03 < quaid> yep
09:03 < glezos> Quoting from 2 hours ago:
09:03 < glezos> KillerX I'm interested in applying for the docbook to
PDF converter project :)
09:03  * quaid saw that confab
09:03 < stickster> Yup, may have a sucker^Wtaker
09:03 < glezos> KillerX So I'll whip up a proposal and get back to you
then
09:03 < quaid> well, yeah, rather than back to us, its really, back to
the proposal process via code.google.com
09:04 < glezos> quaid, how about crafting a proposal for L10N WUI?
09:04 < glezos> mmcgrath also thought it would be a good idea
09:04 < quaid> ok, but same question I have about timing.
09:04 < quaid> August seems pretty late
09:04  * quaid looks at Releases/8/Schedule
09:04 < stickster> Here's KillerX's web site:
http://anant.wordpress.com/
09:05 < quaid> see, the problem is ...
09:05 < quaid> if you go 6 mon. forward from current string freeze
(which is tomorrow)
09:05 < quaid> that makes string freeze Sep.
09:05 < quaid> that is awfully close, isn't it?
09:06 < glezos> quaid, well, we can start with a WUI for statistics
(fairly easy) and stage 2 could be the remotely-hosted-PO-thing
09:06 < stickster> quaid: We could raise that with RelEng and craft a
time buffer into the next cycle
09:06 < stickster> Slips happen, and all
09:06 < couf> time buffer++
09:07 < glezos> Do we have any other stuff we'd like to craft as GSoC
proposals?
09:07  * stickster notes that string freeze will likely be Tuesday
instead
09:07 < couf> so we've got 3 bounties which have something to do with
docs
09:08 < glezos> For example, say, a Web frontend for DocBook+CVS in
Python?
09:08 < glezos> Ie. port of http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/ to
Python
09:08 < glezos> just throwing ideas here
09:08  * quaid doesn't want to port that one, but knows what you mean
09:08 < couf> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraBounties is the place
09:08 < quaid> yes, it is the place
09:09 < stickster> Once again, I think that hiding that in Plone code
would be ideal
09:09 < stickster> Once again, I think that having Plone folks would be
ideal++
09:09 < glezos> stickster, well, port to Python/Plone then
09:09 < couf> aye Plone++
09:09 < stickster> heh
09:10  * stickster still thinks we need some expert opinion on using
ReST/docutils for easy writing and better portability to DocBook
09:10 < glezos> There are 800 positions for students.. I guess crafting
proposals that will not certainly be used by us doesn't hurt that much
09:11 < stickster> Wow, that's a load of positions
09:12 < stickster> OK, so glezos, you want to draft a proposal then? Is
there any time left for the students to see it and apply by deadline?
09:12 < stickster> < 1 week?
09:12 < quaid> six days
09:12 < quaid> I need to do the same for the Plone install
09:12 < quaid> does that count as a student project?
09:12 < glezos> dunno.. I could write one I guess
09:12 < stickster> Hmm
09:12 < quaid> i.e., there isn't much code in a Plone install
09:13 < stickster> right
09:13 < stickster> Plone module for interaction with SCM/DocBook
though...
09:13 < stickster> Whether using ReST go-between or not...
09:13 < quaid> mspevack_out threw up a request for Plone help
internally, and the best so far is a team that just wrangled an install,
but they seem to be offering "answers to questions" v. actual
task-doing.
09:14 < stickster> understood
09:14 < glezos> quaid, maybe dubbing it "Make Plone a publishing
platform" and include stuff like the one stickster just mentioned
09:14 < quaid> ah, plone module, ok
09:14 < stickster> If you asked me what the scope of that work is, I
couldn't begin to tell you.
09:15 < stickster> I want to get myself to some Plone training but don't
see it happening any time soon.
09:15 < EvilBob> Morning All
09:15 < EvilBob> Sorry I over slept
09:16 < couf> we should get a Plone.org guy doing a GSoC for us :)
09:16 < stickster> Hi Bob
09:16 < EvilBob> GSoC, damaestro is interested in doing one
09:16 < couf> alas, the deadline is very very soon
09:16 < stickster> OK, before we get too off-track, maybe we should set
the action items for this and move on
09:16 < EvilBob> A plone item would be right up his alley
09:17 < quaid> ok
09:17 < quaid> that might do it
09:17 < quaid> I'll write up the plone thing
09:17 < stickster> suggestion: Notify Anant to let him know where to
send proposal
09:17 < quaid> glezos if you can post up a first pass at the l10n wui
09:18 < glezos> quaid, I think you have a clearer idea for it.. :)
09:18 < quaid> how did KillerX find us here and not find the Google
page?
09:18 < glezos> I can expand on it
09:18 < quaid> glezos: oh :)
09:18 < quaid> ok
09:18 < stickster> no idea :-D
09:18 < quaid> I'll put up first passes at both, then
09:18 < glezos> quaid, thanks.
09:18 < couf> ok, who's mentoring or wants to help mentoring?
09:19 < glezos> I can mentor for L10N WUI
09:19 < quaid> looks like anant.wordpress.org has links to SoC site
already, I reckon we don't need to contact him wit hthat
09:19 < couf> glezos: /me can co-mentor on that one
09:20 < glezos> how can we make sure the applicants indeed take it
seriously and will walk it through?
09:20 < couf> basicly the money does it all :)
09:20 < stickster> quaid: Good point, /me needs to read more
09:21 < couf> anyone want to take the PDF conversion?
09:22 < stickster> I can't commit for any mentoring this summer, my
schedule is more than spoken for at this point :-\
09:22 < stickster> I'm happy to drop in and advise ad-hoc anytime though
09:22 < quaid> hmm
09:22 < stickster> "asst. mentor"
09:22 < quaid> I was looking to step back a bit and give others a chance
to mentor
09:23 < quaid> maybe we can co-mentor on the Plone one and I'll catch
all the slack
09:24 < stickster> Guys, we need to get quaid out of doing every task.
I wish I could do more but I can't commit more time until probably
around July.
09:24 < EvilBob> I am willing to co-mentor however It would not be right
to Mentor Damaestro because of our other working relationship
09:24 < stickster> Oh, do you employ him on the side? Like $$$?
09:24 < stickster> or maybe just 1 $  :-D
09:24 < glezos> is there no chance any older FDSCo members to help out?
09:25 < quaid> we'll have to ask
09:25 < EvilBob> stickster: something like that
09:25 < quaid> we can proceed and work out the mentoring as we go, too
09:25 < couf> sure
09:25 < EvilBob> stickster: he is a resource in my business I will put
it that way
09:25 < stickster> I see
09:26 < couf> Shall we move on?
09:26 < quaid> k
09:26 < glezos> I should mention that mmcgrath might be interested in
co-mentoring the L10N WUI too (the multi-repository thing anyway).
09:27 < glezos> docs.fedoraproject.org
09:27 < glezos> quaid, any comments/updates?
09:28 -!- hers [n=chatzill at 222.248.201.228] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.77
[Firefox 2.0.0.2/0000000000]"]
09:28 < quaid> you know ...
09:28 < stickster> Hmm, mmcgrath as mentor -- great way to ensure things
are Done Right
09:28 < stickster> s/mentor/co-mentor/
09:29 < quaid> I'm unclear, sorry, if when we tag LIVE in CVS which site
it is going to
09:29 < quaid> I've asked mmcgrath but I haven't noticed his response :)
09:29 < stickster> quaid: I haven't tried it lately to see
09:29 < quaid> we need the LIVE tagging to affect docs.fp.o now
09:30 < quaid> so we can reorganize that side
09:30 < couf> iirc, it's still only going to f.r.c
09:30 < stickster> Does Mike know where that CVS=>Web glue is on f.r.c?
09:30  * quaid posted a change last week, looks
09:30 < quaid> he does
09:31 < glezos> I know it's pretty late, but I'd like once more to raise
the issue of doing it under fp.org/docs/
09:31 < quaid> ok, that change went to fr.c
09:31 < quaid> glezos: FI said it would be easier to handle a sub-domain
09:31 < quaid> and we want one URL, right?
09:31 < stickster> yup
09:31 < quaid> and there is an existing trend in the project to use
name.fp.org
09:31 < couf> +1
09:32 < quaid> hosted.fp.org, cvs.fp.o, git.fp.org, etc.
09:32 < stickster> quaid: What was your change?
09:32 < stickster> nm
09:33 < quaid>
http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/developers-guide/s1-ui-gnome-guidelines.html
09:33 < glezos> if plone comes, it will be under fp.org/. If we then
decide to integrate docs in there, we'd do it at fp.org/docs/, right?
09:33 < quaid> wrapped HIG citetitle with a url
09:33 < quaid> glezos: nope
09:33 < quaid> glezos: that is our choice, right?
09:33 < glezos> quaid, ok.. I'm just trying to make sure we won't have
to make redirects in the future.
09:34 < quaid> well, we likely want to redirect from /docs 
09:34 < glezos> ok.
09:34 < couf> with Plone we could have fp.org/docs which collects links
to docs.fp.org
09:34 < quaid> let's put it this way ...
09:34 < quaid> we can still debate this, if we want
09:34 < quaid>  I'm not locked in anything
09:34 < quaid> and yes this is the best/last chance, I think
09:35 < stickster> But if FI has reasons why they want it docs.fp.o,
argue it there
09:35 < quaid> mike said we can do it any way we want, but the sub-dmain
was "easier" or "better" I disrecall which
09:35 < quaid> but it is up to us what we want
09:35 < stickster> I haven't observed us really caring one way or the
other, so we yield to FI
09:36 < stickster> As long as Google leads readers to the good stuff
09:36 < glezos> quaid, I don't have a preference. Only to not have to
change it in the future.
09:36 < stickster> We shouldn't have to, I would think.
09:36 < stickster> mod_rewrite makes everything OK, yes?
09:37 < glezos> stickster, well.. not exactly. Cookies might have a
problem for subdomains for example.
09:37 < stickster> That only depends on our giving them out properly,
though, right?
09:37 < glezos> My only reservation is that subdomains are usually
totally separate systems or software. They serve completely different
functionality. But sure, with mod_rewrites you can get it all done.
09:37 < EvilBob> !
09:37 < stickster> Again, this is for an FI argument. As a Doc'er, I
totally don't care.
09:38 < glezos> OK, let's move on. I don't want to delay discussions. I
will talk it up with mmcgrath to make sure.
09:38 < EvilBob> I would suggest our plone work happen under fp.o
09:38 < EvilBob> use docs.fp.o for published xml results
09:39 < quaid> yet docs.fp.o is going to be a plone front-end
09:39 < quaid> that is, it will be a virtual folder or something, right?
09:39 < glezos> quaid, no idea.
09:40 < EvilBob> I would think that d.fp.o would be static only
09:40 < stickster> I disagree, I see GNOME using subdomains for working
projects
09:40 < stickster> And they're using Plone AIUI
09:41  * glezos is OK with both ways.
09:42 < glezos> shall we move on?
09:42 < quaid> EvilBob: I think static is orthogonal in this case; yes
static output, but it should be put in that location by plone via
workflow
09:42 < quaid> well
09:42 < quaid> I guess I'm not done
09:42 < stickster> heh
09:42 < quaid> I want to get a "litmus test" here
09:42 < quaid> Red Hat IS 'recommends' that we just redirect from
f.r.c/* to fp.org and let people find what they want from there
09:43 < quaid> this is because they maintain a >1000 line set of
redirects around redhat.com and say it is crazy-making
09:43 < quaid> so, mmcgrath and I discussed and we recommend a
mod_rewrite rule
09:43 < quaid> that will preserve the post / content and let us parse it
on the Fedora side (so no hassle to RH IS any more)
09:44 < glezos> quaid, sounds rational.
09:44 < quaid> so, this is still in negotiation, afaict; since we don't
get to tell them what to do but only ask, we can't be sure how things
are going to land.
09:44 < quaid> so there is a chance it will be the first
09:44 < quaid> that is, all redirect to front page, start googlejuice
from scratch, etc.
09:44 < EvilBob> NOTE: there are issues when using multiple domains and
subdomains in plone
09:44 < quaid> my assumption is that this is bad from a user experience,
but I want to hear from ya'll
09:45 < quaid> EvilBob: what about subdomains in one domain/.
09:45 < quaid> ?
09:45 < EvilBob> that is what I was trying to make clear and failed
09:45 < quaid> EvilBob: meaning, subs in one domain should be OK, but
across multiple domains is crazy?
09:45 < EvilBob> quaid: each (sub)domain requires a swperate plone
instance
09:46 < EvilBob> errr instance is the wrong word
09:46 < EvilBob> testing.fu.o is not the same plone site as fu.o for
example
09:47 < stickster> Can't it be, if you mod_rewrite from Apache as the
front end?
09:47 < glezos> Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for a software system
to choke with subdomains.. That's why usually they are intended for
different systems (bugzilla, cvs-frontend, web content). Heck, even web
designers have problems (grabbing images with relative paths)
09:47 < EvilBob> each and every one of the unity sites are separate
09:48 < glezos> We can further discuss this on the mailing list CCed
with -infrastructure.
09:49 < quaid> how a bout just on f-i-l?
09:49 < stickster> glezos++
09:49 < glezos> quaid, ok
09:49 < stickster> Oops, I'm not on f-i-l
09:49 < quaid> since it's really a technical issue
09:49 < EvilBob> we have hacked together a system that shares the user
accounts but the content is completely separate and you need to login
when changing name space
09:49 < quaid> stickster: :D
09:49 < quaid> EvilBob: ok, great point, thanks
09:49  * stickster refuses to join another mailing list until he drops
at least two
09:49 < stickster> :-d
09:49 < stickster> :-d
09:49 < quaid> stickster: i've got some suggestions ... :D
09:49 < stickster> aw, hell with it
09:49 < stickster> heh
09:49 < stickster> awright, trans update
09:50 < quaid> is that me?
09:50  * quaid guesses so
09:51 < couf> hmm no it's glezos  :)
09:51 < quaid> oh, good
09:51 < quaid> except I guess I have something to report to him :)
09:51 < couf> then go on :)
09:51 < glezos> um
09:51 < glezos> well, I tried GNOME's Damned Lies interface
09:51 < quaid> on Friday i talked with mmcgrath and poelcat (John
Poelstra); poelcat is now looking into the feasibility of him being a
facilitator within Red hat for those parts
09:52 < glezos> Which seems to have future. I contacted it's maintainer
and he said he's willing to help out in porting (it's already well
written and supoprts modules etc)
09:52 < quaid> meaning we'd need to PM the Fedora side ourselves
09:52 < glezos> The second part of L10N WUI that quaid and I are
thinking is make it possible to serve remotely-hosted POs (ie act as a
SCM client)
09:53 < glezos> See:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/RFR/L10nCVSandUI
09:53  * EvilBob is away (phone)
09:53 < glezos> Sonar_Gal, if we find a student to investigate these two
for GSoC we'd be perfect.
09:53 < couf> poor Sonar_Gal
09:53 < glezos> agr. So, So, *So*
09:54 < glezos> We could also write them as two different proposals,
right?
09:55 < stickster> 11 min/me reads
09:55 < stickster> oops, I mean:
09:55 < stickster> me reads
09:56 < quaid> from what I was reporting, a different twist has come up
that I think we should address/decide upon
09:56 < quaid> but I'm unclear if it is ours to decide :)
09:56 < quaid> so maybe a step back ...
09:56 < quaid> do we feel we have enough representation from all the
involved communities?
09:56 < quaid> to form a short-term SIG so we can vote/decide on stuff.
09:57 < stickster> having couf and glezos here helps, but we should
probably reach out for some more input, yes
09:57 < quaid> in that I don't think this is really FDSCo's to
decide ...
09:57 < couf> hmm, good question, sig++ both involvment: not that much
imo
09:57 < quaid> ok, so here is the ponderable ...
09:57 < couf> s/both/but
09:57 < quaid> poelcat is checking on a possible resource offer from the
group that 'owns' elvis.rh.c internally
09:58 < quaid> not knowing yet what that means ... I want to figure out
what parameters we have for accepting such help/.
09:58 < quaid> for example, here are two ways I could see help coming:
09:58 < quaid> i. Help comes to work within the community on a joint
solution; sharing of resources; Fedora/RHEL model, etc.
09:59 < quaid> ii. Help comes to "fix" problems in elvis.rh.c, and keeps
all their work and processes internal until they are ready for us to
start testing externally
09:59 < quaid> would we want help in both of those cases?  or only in
i)?
09:59 < stickster> only i.
09:59 < couf> only i
10:00 < quaid> I share this feeling :)
10:00 < quaid> but ...
10:00 < quaid> the problem is I don't speak the 100+ languages of our
trans community
10:00 < glezos> quaid, I'm for i too, and AFAICT, mspevack shares this
opinion.
10:00 < quaid> and what if 80% of them want "big Daddy Red hat" to take
care of this for them, and they don't care
10:01 < glezos> (ie bring Fedora-affected systems & processes to the
community space)
10:01 < couf> hmm, I'm noticing a change of attitude towards this on the
trans-list, people are stepping up
10:01 < quaid> I'm concerned that we are acting from a perceived
opinion, that is, we perceive that the rest of the l10n community shares
our opinion, when we can't directly know that because of lang and
cultural differences
10:01 < couf> and are feeling things have to change
10:01 < glezos> quaid, I'll make that clear enough: 99% of the L10N
community does translations for Fedora, not RHEL.
10:02 < quaid> yes, but does "vocal" == "majority"?
10:02 < quaid> glezos: :)
10:02 < couf> quaid: fair enough
10:02 < stickster> We want to avoid disenfranchising folks, especially
since it could affect overall Fedora l10n
10:03 < stickster> But FOSS has always been about taking
ownership/responsibility for doing things
10:03 < quaid> ok
10:03 < glezos> stickster, certainly. But we need to be able to do our
jobs. We want to do much more than what elvis can provide and we are
willing to do them quickly.
10:03 < stickster> We could take a better quality, lower drag poll, I
suppose
10:03 < couf> the big problem is that not everyone is on the list, and
looks at it
10:03 < quaid> right
10:03 < stickster> If people don't have to write an email to the list,
we may get more responses.
10:03 < stickster> sure, there's that as ewll.
10:03 < stickster> s/ewll/well/
10:03 < quaid> and the thing is ... the translators who work for RH are
on many sub-lists and they could tell us, but what would they tell us?
10:04  * EvilBob is off the phone
10:04 < EvilBob> I need to run, buddy is broke down....
10:04 < quaid> ok, I guess the point is not really moot
10:04 < quaid> EvilBob: cheers
10:04 < glezos> My goal for L10N WUI is for it to support upstream
translations. If this works, then RH could use it for any project it
likes.
10:04 < quaid> in that Fedora leadership doesn't want systems that
happen behind doors for us to "benefit" from
10:05 < quaid> we have taken the lesser-quality-for-now because it is
open stance
10:05 < quaid> glezos: +1 we could do this the right way, for sure
10:05 < stickster> We can attract more interest and participation by
simply starting the gears turning
10:05 < quaid> ok, I just wanted to be sure we all agreed oon this
direction, and my thinking was sound.
10:06  * stickster wants to make sure someone keeps in the back of their
head that we would like to connect this, as well, to Plone in the
far-flung future if at all possible
10:06 < glezos> Ideally, this shift towards the community space will
benefit all of us. So, I see the best thing would be for RH L10N team to
help materialize our vision, just like the Merge.
10:06 < quaid> glezos: I saw you wondering about "does scml10n need to
sign the GPG" and I can't see any way around it
10:06 < quaid>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KarstenWade/Drafts/CLAAcceptanceHierarchies#preview
10:06 < stickster> glezos: Right.  The reason that has worked out so
well is that people Just Did It.
10:06 < quaid> the proposal there is clear -- once in SCM, the risk is
higher, etc.
10:07 < stickster> Extras is the biggest success story in Fedora
10:07 < couf> yeah certainly CLA for cvsl10n
10:07 < quaid> note that ... Fedora didn't do the best internal
marketing job around the mere
10:07 < stickster> quaid: CLA++
10:07 < quaid> merge
10:07 < glezos> quaid, right now they don't have to sign the CLA for
i18n.redhat.com.
10:07 < quaid> and we are trying to avoid stepping in that bear trap
10:07 < quaid> glezos: yes, I know; they should have; IMNSHO that was a
big mistake
10:07 < stickster> quaid: I'm not so sure that it was a bad job... but I
don't see the internal lists. ;-)
10:07 < couf> glezos: CLA was concieved after i18n
10:08 < quaid> we are shipping lots of content we don't have a clear
right to use, unless there is something in i18n I don't get
10:08 < stickster> There hasn't been much public grumbling, and what
there was of it was mostly due to misunderstandings and people
entrenching for no good reason.
10:08 < glezos> quaid, there is an alternative. Give the option through
the WUI for a person to submit a translation and the language maintainer
has to approve/commit it.
10:08 < quaid> glezos: sure
10:08 < quaid> glezos: that's like the Wiki model
10:08 < couf> QA is realy needed
10:09 < quaid> they still need to agree to something when submitting
that is essentially the CLA :)
10:09 < quaid> that is, the WikiLicense is really the CLA + OPL
10:09 < glezos> OK. Once we have a prototype WUI we can figure more
complex stuff then.
10:09 < stickster> This all comes back to the click-through, waiting on
Legal.
10:09 < quaid> I think it is a big mistake to ever debate if a
contribution "should" be under the CLA
10:10 < quaid> when an Ambassador makes a speach, it's a contribution,
needs to be covered, etc.
10:10 < quaid> stickster: working on that one :)
10:10 < quaid> my "PlainEnglishCLA" did offend, which I was afraid
of :), and got justly shot-down
10:10 < glezos> quaid, let's just say that the actual committer takes
responsibility for the submitted contributions. I think these are
slightly minor issues.
10:10 < stickster> Careful with extending the license agreement to vocal
speech
10:10  * quaid had called it "HumanSpeakCLA" but changed that to not
offend the lawyers
10:11 < glezos> lol
10:11 < quaid> glezos: good point, like bugzilla; minor point
10:11 < stickster> I think you'd find a lot of trouble in that.  If it's
a written presentation that's held somewhere or committed to paper,
sure... but speech is not generally licensed :-)
10:11 < quaid> stickster: yes, I mean, written and put on wiki
10:11 < quaid> or whatever
10:11 < stickster> heh
10:11 < stickster> ok, +1 that
10:11 < quaid> I just mean, don't try to classify what is or is not a
contribution
10:11 < couf> :)
10:12 < stickster> right
10:12 < quaid> rather classify what is the risk in taking that
contribution
10:12 < stickster> If it goes in, it has to be covered, period.
10:12 < stickster> If we hold on to it, it has to be covered.
10:12 < quaid> and applyu CLA difficulties by risk levels
10:12 < quaid> submit via bugzilla or ml as a patch, low risk, etc.
10:12 < quaid> ok, we've beaten on this one enough?
10:13 < glezos> guess so
10:13 < quaid> I'll let you know what poelcat says
10:13 < quaid> but we're essentially on our own on the Fedora side
10:13 < couf> yay
10:13 < quaid> and we're seeking clarity on what "don't break our
system" means so we can achieve or reject that
10:14 < stickster> OK, so back to agenda then... wiki reorg ==> couf
10:14 < stickster> yes?
10:14 < couf> all right
10:14 < couf> everyone has seen it, and approved right?
10:15 < couf>
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00039.html
10:16 < stickster> Yes, with comments as posted earlier
10:16 < couf> I'm just looking for the best way to get this started
10:16  * quaid admits to not having dived into that one
10:16 < couf> i) get an wiki from FI (RFR)
10:16 < glezos> couf, write a wiki page with the structure as bullets?
10:17 < couf> ii) personal wiki-userspace
10:17 < couf> iii) just dive in
10:17 < glezos> I'd vote for iii)
10:17 < stickster> iii)
10:18 < quaid> fine with me
10:18 < stickster> couf: See how much you can do by only reorganizing,
and cutting, pages
10:18 < stickster> Rather than writing *more*
10:18 < couf> right on, I'm planning on doing this in the next two weeks
10:18 < couf> stickster: I'm going for less rather than more
10:19 < stickster> We can always hand-craft later as needed
10:19 < quaid> yes, odds are, what we need is there, and needs to be
trimmed and combined
10:19 < stickster> hoo-rah
10:20 < stickster> couf: Anything else you need before starting?
10:20 < couf> hmm, not really, I'm gonna setup a template this week
10:20 < quaid> ref. Docs/Drafts => DocsProject/Drafts ... I think we
want to keep those in Docs/ because we want people to 'beta test' them
10:21 < stickster> Yeah, I think someone mentioned that on the list...
hmmm, lemmesee
10:21 < couf> yeah I got that one :)
10:21 < quaid> ok, good
10:21  * quaid missed that, just read through the thread
10:21 < stickster> coo'
10:21 < quaid> otherwise it sounds great to me, and I'll help wherever I
can as we proceed
10:22  * stickster notes, moving up on 90 minutes, meeting red alert!
10:22 < couf> okay guys, in two weeks the project-wiki will be totaly
different :)
10:22 < couf> cool
10:22 < couf> let's move on then :)
10:22 < stickster> OK, PDF
10:22 < couf> Last item on list is PDF
10:23 < glezos> next subject: PDF guides. Should we bother going after
them *now* or wait for F7 to make them through the tolchain?
10:23 < stickster> I would rather do this right (and leverage GSoC) than
do it twice
10:24 < glezos> stickster, we could get F7 IG in PDF with cups-pdf with
a couple of clicks..
10:24  * stickster has yet to see a stunning argument for PDF production
other than allowing people to print something prettier than HTML, which
isn't necessarily in our interests...
10:24  * glezos thinks PDFs will increase the popularity of our Docs
10:24 < stickster> We can allow users to do this now with a print CSS
and save the trouble
10:25 < glezos> people just save it on their Desktops for future
reference for example...
10:25 < stickster> In the web includes: "Print me!"
10:25 < stickster> For future reference when? After they install?
10:25 < stickster> We want people to come back for the latest version
10:25 < quaid> it's all about different styles
10:25 < stickster> yeah, I'm not opposed to PDF at all, just for the
record
10:25 < quaid> enough people like the PDF style for a guide, but
honestly its hard to tell how much it matters
10:26 < glezos> I guess people just don't know that some HTML is very
nicely printable
10:26 < stickster> I just think having to keep up with republishing
manually is dreary
10:26 < stickster> glezos: the "Print Me" button can take care of that.
10:26 < couf> right, we should just have the "print me" link on the page
and let users do it
10:27  * stickster has printed several articles from RHM for example, to
distribute to bosses and peers
10:27 < quaid> that would be worth rebuilding docs for, yes
10:27 < stickster> Well, the print me button should appear courtesy of
SSI's and not in our publishing process, IYAM
10:27 < quaid> since some of them aren't even buildable but need porting
to the new Makefile/tools
10:28 < couf> and if anyone comes up with *the* solution to PDF
production, we'll handle it then
10:28 < glezos> anyway. just thinking that people do like PDFs, not sure
for what reasons though... probably the self-packed
one-file-contains-everything idea
10:28 < stickster> Oh I see, you mean, "Wow, I'd even fix <XYZ> doc if
it got that button slapped on it"
10:29 < stickster> For our *real* PDF's, I really want an actual
to-die-for style, including stylish page markings and sidebars from
admonitions.
10:29 < couf> stickster++
10:29 < glezos> stickster+++
10:29  * couf has to bail
10:29 < glezos> we've even found a name for the style... to-die-for.xsl
10:30 < couf> see ya (buffer rolling)
10:30 -!- couf is now known as couf_away
10:30 < stickster> heh
10:30 < stickster> bye couf
10:31 < glezos> Haven't received any emails on this:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00139.html
10:31 < quaid> so, can we do the SSI version?
10:31 < stickster> quaid: that depends on how we publish to docs.fp.o
10:31 < quaid> stickster: today it is the same as f.r.c
10:31 < stickster> Right now, there's bare PHP sitting up there with
nothing backing it up
10:31 < quaid> and is likely to stay that way for a while
10:32 < stickster> So we certainly can move the includes there as well,
and restyle if necessary
10:32 < stickster> Is PHP running on that host? And is it likely to?
10:32 < stickster> (if not)
10:33 < stickster> glezos: Give it a couple days, weekend work is
sketchy
10:33 < quaid> I don't know how he has it set up
10:33 < stickster> me neither
10:33 < quaid> well, presumably like before
10:34 < quaid> PHP builds static pages on the backend
10:34 < quaid> I can include the SSI wherever we want
10:34 < stickster> Yeah, I think we need the images up there too
10:34 < stickster> And the CSS for now, so we can monkey with it
10:35 < stickster> Wait... where will we access all that?
10:35 < quaid> via cvs
10:35 < stickster> Oh, I guess if he just hooks those in from the Web
module in CVS the same way, should be fine
10:35 < stickster> jinx
10:35 < quaid> yep, and I'm ready to reorganize to chop out all the
non-docs from the Nav
10:35 < stickster> OK, may have just missed those pieces then
10:35 < stickster> I can help too
10:35 < quaid> cool
10:36 < stickster> The "Print Me" shouldn't be too hard
10:36 < quaid> let's first get the word that pub of LIVE is on
docs.fp.o, which it appears it is not
10:36 < stickster> We'll add a publishing bit for html-nochunks to fit
into, that would be the best printable I would think
10:36 < glezos> CSS can do very neat things.. unfortunately not
everything, but OK.
10:37 < mmcgrath> quaid: I'll set that up today (the whole live publish)
10:38 < glezos> should we publish the meeting log? Or probably trancuate
it leaving only the TODO stuff (as reminders for next week)?
10:39 < stickster> Marvelous Mike makes a miraculous meeting
materialization!
10:39 < quaid> mmcgrath: ok, I was just emailing f-i-l
10:39  * quaid cancels that
10:39 < quaid> glezos: both; full log with summary above
10:41 < quaid> </meeting>

-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor    ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
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