draciron at gmail.com
Tue May 22 20:00:51 UTC 2007
On 5/16/07, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 11:48 -0500, Dan Smith wrote:
> > I like Jonathan's idea. Pointing to the unofficial Fedora FAQ would
> > be one good start. When setting up a new machine most people are going
> > to want MP3 support, plugin support for the browser and many of the
> > other topics covered by the unofficial FAQ. How to automount windoze
> > shares, SMB configurations and how to mount NTFS partitions will be
> > very important to people using mixed environments and dual boots.
> Ha! Guess I wrote my earlier thread reply too soon. Cf. "contributory
> infringement." We point to FedoraForum.org already, and I'm sure plenty
> of people there are willing to help corrupt systems with non-FOSS
> wherever needed.
FedoraForum.org has some helpful people there. Some of the FAQs are helpful
but the primary focus of a "wizard" would be people new to Linux. People
who'll have no idea what they are doing. Those of us that know Linux tend to
already know or Google quickly. One problem with the organization of much
of the information is the navigation of the information. A second problem is
the lack of updates. Thus the inspiration to update the NFS through
firewalls FAQ which is very obsolete as an example of how much ancient
information is what people will see.
I have no love of Microsoft. I do not run windoze. I have often considered
porting all my mp3s to OGG. The reality is that mp3 is the current standard.
Oggs are better and there are no patent issues with them but most windoze
and Mac users have never even heard of an Ogg. Pngs tend to be much larger
than jpgs or I feel pngs would have overtaken jpg as the standard for
images. I look at things from a practical viewpoint. We cannot stand on a
mountain and expect people too look way up there and say that must be a cool
place to be. We have to go down there and show them how to get up that
mountain. We are not going to do that by being elitist about anything. I
suspect I am like most here in that when I started with Linux I still used
windoze for some stuff for a few years until I converted completely to
Linux. True Linux has evolved quite a bit since then but we have to deal
with reality. A very common situation I've seen is the Techie in the family
running Linux machines and maybe having a windoze dual boot for gaming. The
non-techie in the house says "don't touch my computer" and runs windoze
because that is what they know. So SMB is quite necessary, though I was in
one lab where we ran SMB instead of NFS because it was faster and easier
despite being a pure Nix shop. So I don't see the shouts of not supporting
anything that isn't FOSS. That's just unrealistic at this point. Five or ten
years from now might be a different story.
The network tool might seem easy but I've been answering questions from
people as young as 12 years old who have no idea what any of this means who
are trying out Linux. I'm seeing large numbers of people, some even with
obvious edges of technophobia giving Linux a try. I hate seeing any give up
and return to windoze. On blogs and such you often see people who tried
Linux and failed and you can feel the bitterness dripping in their posts.
Especially when the topic of Linux for desktops comes up. My heart drops
every time I see one of those. The biggest problem is ourselves really.
Linux is more than mature enough to take the desktop world by storm. It is a
far superior OS to any other out there in every aspect except for the number
of games availible. Linux is easier to run, more secure, less expensive,
could require less technical knowledge (unfortunately Linux has not taken
advantage of this aspect yet) and can just plain do more on less hardware
than any other OS. It is a magnatude more powerful than windoze. Our worst
enemy is ourselves. The old school nix elitism. It's been done this way for
x many years it should always be done this way kind of thing. That don't
cut it with many people and it drives them away.
That is why this idea about a wizard can be such a powerful tool for helping
people adapt to Linux. It collects information in a single easy to use place
for desktop Linux users, especially those new to Linux but even for vets it
can be an easy list of links needed to configure a desktop on a fresh
install rather than doing it peicemeal as you run into various file formats
> Even more important to windoze users first trying out LInux is going
> > to be equivalents. Send them to VI and they'll run screaming into the
> > night back to windoze. So Kedit/Gedit = notepad Openoffice = Word
> > GIMP= photoshop kinds of tutorials would be a big help. So too would
> > how file permissions and such work. How to set up cups is pretty
> > essential. Scanners, digital cameras and such as well. Another
> > crucial aspect is pointing folks toward K3b. It will make CD burning
> > easy for even the most novice windoze user. Nothing comes close in the
> > Linux world to K3b. Though this implies auto installing at least the
> > KDE libs, technically you want to just install KDE. Folks that have
> > space issues that would preclude KDE's installation are not going to
> > use such a wizard anyway. That is one thing I wish Fedora would
> > correct, the default install will put only Gnome on. That leaves half
> > of the important apps uninstalled. A default Fedora install is not a
> > very friendly install to a new Linux user. Vets can easily remove
> > things they don't want, so I feel the install should default more
> > toward the kitchen sink rather than the lean install that is currently
> > used.
> This is a huge scattershot of topics, but I think most of these are
> covered in the sketchpad/checklists of topics for our guides. Perhaps
> you would like to actually contribute some content for these guides on
> the wiki? It is open for community contribution; please refer to
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Join for information. If
> wishes were horses... :-)
I've actually joined and submitted a rough. Unfortunately I'm a bit of a
heretic. I started in DOS, moved to windoze and didn't discover Linux until
the mid 90s. Didn't move full time to Linux until the late 90s. I find many
old school nix concepts as awkward or just obsolete. For example putting
everything in the home dir is insane if you ask me. It is a security
problem, it makes for a zillion false alarms when you grep for something and
it potentially leads to problems such as a download filling up the partition
the home dir is on and the subsequent complaints by Linux when it cannot
write to the home dir. So I advocate the seperation of the home dir and data
dir. One dir should be for NOTHING but configuration information. The other
for user data such as downloads, spreadsheets and such. I do have a rough
for NFS. Been out of town most of the last 2 months so I havn't been able to
finish it. It is really more of an update on older works showing how to
configure NFS to work through firewalls. I still have a glitch to fix and
it'll be ready. Would love to have somebody look it over. They could
probably see what I'm forgetting at a glance. Had it working, then power
went out and had to reboot. When I did one of the daemons went back to
random port assignments. Haven't been in town long enough lately to figure
out which one.
I am quite happy to put my fingers to work on such projects. The whole
reason I joined the documentation project was to give back to the OSS
community. I do bring a very different perspective though. I try to see
through the eyes of people new to Linux. I'm also going by the kinds of
questions I'm seeing on various Linux lists and forums or that I get through
IMs and emails.
> The feedback I get from lots of first time Linux users is that they
> > get lost. They have no idea what to do with their brand spanking new
> > Linux installation. Some things like how to configure networking has
> > to be local on the HD. Without it they cannot reach the FAQs on the
> > net.
> Again, we are open to contributions in the docs. I would consider this
> a possibility for including in the on-DVD "README" file, if nothing else
> than telling people where to find the easy network configuration tool
> already present in the default installation.
Ah but our target audience isn't going to read a read me. I personally like
the idea of using the default browser and opening a local page with the
basics and links to other references. Simple HTML will be more than
sufficient for the task. Some of it needs to be local such as network
configuration. Those who know how to configure a network will for example
just skip right past that. Me I find it easier to just edit the various
files in a text editor. It's what I've been doing for years and I have more
control over the system that way. People new to Linux will want to use the
GUI however. Step by step network configuration for dummies would be a big
help with some new users. The firewall configuration tool is simple and very
good. Most users need only the default settings.
The goal is to create a roadmap to a fully functional system in as short a
time as possible presented in such a way that somebody with no technical
knowledge can follow this map with little or no frustration and have a fully
functional Linux system. Advanced users and functionality of course require
the more traditional and more complex documentation.
> Other things like pointers to the better Linux games while not
> > important for business users would help generate more interest in
> > Linux. A tutorial on window managers with snap shots of what the major
> > ones look like, how to install them and such would also be a big help.
> > What is especially important is how to configure repositories. They
> > will be unable to use the Unofficial FAQ to get anything through Yum
> > without first adding a repository. I know Redhat does not add this
> > repository to avoid getting sued over copywrites and such but don't
> > see where there'd be any harm in using a certain repository as an
> > example of how to add a repository :)
> See above. Plus the software management guide, which could also use
> your help. Please feel free to contribute elbow grease as desired.
Point me to whatever areas need work and I'd be glad to help out.
> Going a step farther and automating that process is actually a good
> > idea. While Redhat couldn't support it because of various potential
> > litigation it could point users to the scripts that would auto
> > configure the system to play DVDs, MP3s, add a repository, grab the
> > latest Firefox browser instead of the 1.5 branch that officially comes
> > with Fedora but is nearly obsolete now. Plugins could then be auto
> > installed. Even for Linux vets that would be a huge time saver.
> > Creating a functional machine takes a good hour or two of downloading
> > and installations. I usually wind up forgetting at least a couple
> > plugins then when I need them I wind up having to restart my browser
> > or putting it off. Novice users often get lost in the process. Get
> > frustrated and it gives Linux a bad name. Fedora is also falling
> > behind some distros in facilitating multi-media which is key to many
> > home users.
> Feel free to write that script, publish it, and support it on your own
> website. The Fedora Project and its contributors (including me, a
> non-Red Hat person) are passionately devoted to free and open source
> software, and we want our solutions to be supportable in the sense that
> the community has the power to take them apart and build on them at will
> without legal repercussions.
I understand your point of view but have to disagree with you. I like you
would love nothing more than to see Microsoft wiped off the face of the
earth. To see all software fall under OSS. I find the current patent laws to
be an obstruction to the advancement of technology. They were never written
to cover free efforts. The concept of people working for free for the good
of the community as a whole just never occured to the authors of the patent
laws. As I said above we have to be realistic. If we want the world to
eventually be that way we have to out and lead people to the water. Show
them how to swim. They might come near the river but there is quite a bit of
fear in the air and many people have had bad experiences with Linux because
they could not find the best apps and wound up doing stupid things like
attempting to burn a CD with something other than K3b. With K3b they have an
interface and style that they are used too. One that's easy and reliable but
there was nothing pointing them to how to do it. Ex-VB developers who might
have never heard of Gambas and saw only C based languages and said "forget
that!" or people terrified of command lines who could not find Yum GUI
tools. Or who got trapped in dependancy hell on an RPM they downloaded.
When I see a post/blog/comment by somebody or listen to somebody who tried
Linux and didn't like it I try to find out why and most of the time it is
purely because they were using old school and klunky apps when nice apps
existed that they were completely unaware of.
By the same token we cannot tell people just because you have 50 gigs of
MP3s but because some idiot corporation wanted to suddenly squeeze extra
money out of people that they have to convert all those mp3s to OGGs. They
are going to turn around and head right back to windoze. Hell I've been
using Linux for years but only about a quarter of my collection is in the
Ogg format. I rip to MP3 because that's what I trade with other people, many
of them widnoze users. I despise Windoze media formats but I often have to
open such files. Pretending they don't exist only makes us look backwards.
Give them time and they'll discover the other formats. Eventually when a
critical mass of people are using Linux then we can advance the Ogg format
as a standard to supplant MP3s. We are not going to convert people by
limiting what they can do with their machines. Linux means the opposite, it
is freedom, even if it means supporting sometimes backwards standards like
Another lie that many people have bought from Microsoft is that being
technically illiterate is ok. To me knowing nothing about computers is like
not knowing how to change a tire. Sure you can get by like that but why?
Learning a bit about computers I feel is essential. Unfortunately we have a
whole generation of people who bought into that lie that we have to contend
with. We can preach until we are blue in the face, but we are not going to
convert many that way. Somebody who's seen a lake for the first time is
going to have a much higher opinion of it when they willingly jump in rather
than if they are thrown in. So lets let users adapt at a pace that suites
> There is a learning curve no matter what we do but it can be made a
> > whole lot less steep with Jonathan's idea and the script I am
> > proposing.
> Again, I would urge you to step up and get involved beyond simply
> listing areas where you feel there are weaknesses. If you have time, we
> have a number of documents in draft form that are waiting for energetic
> folks to improve. Thanks for your time and consideration, and we look
> forward to hearing back from you.
Point me to them and I'd be glad to help as I am able. I'd also be quite
happy to help.
> Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/
> gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
> Fedora Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields
> irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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