FDSCo Meeting 2007-05-27 IRC log

[Karsten Wade]

HTML version available at:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20070527

09:07 < quaid> <meeting>
09:07 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda
09:07 < quaid> good morning (again) all
09:08 < megacoder> hello
09:08  * couf does a gang-wave
09:08 < McGiwer> howdy
09:08 < McGiwer> :)
09:08 < quaid> I'll do the log/summary again today; it's been useful for me
09:09 < quaid> when we get to the tasks list, we'll pick one of us to do the editing for the group
09:09 < couf> cool :-)
09:09 < McGiwer> ok! :>
09:09 < jmbuser> +1
09:09 < quaid> jmbuser: for the record before we get started, sorry Luis was all mean to you this week, although I *think* it wasn't really about you :)
09:09 < quaid> I've been trying to figure out a reply ... and not sure if there is
09:10 < jmbuser> quaid: Silence is golden :-)
09:10 < quaid> jmbuser: just remember, he is about to become a lawyer, so he'll be getting his perdition on Earth without any help from us
09:10 < quaid> right!
09:10 < quaid> moving right along ...
09:10 < jmbuser> jmbuser: Lawyers are people, too.
09:11 < quaid> worthy of pity
09:11 < quaid> capable of sin
09:11 < jmbuser> nuff said
09:11 < megacoder> jmbuser, that _is_ newsworthy!
09:11 < quaid> so, to the agenda ...
09:12 < quaid> paul, help me out ... i really want to do a final read through of the IG but haven't found time, are we "too late"?
09:15 < couf> quaid: he might not be around due to wife's birthday
09:16 < quaid> d'oh!
09:16 < quaid> sorry, i forgot that
09:16  * quaid stupidly waiting for no respoonse
09:17 < megacoder> nak
09:17 < quaid> I guess he put his answers in the Agenda then
09:17 < couf> yeah, it mentions "final draft" so you'll still have time to read through, I guess
09:17 < quaid> ... I'll find out about that later, see what the l10n status is
09:18 < quaid> ok, next
09:18 < quaid> jmbuser: do you want to define a final production schedule for the UG?
09:19 < quaid> not something set in stone, just something to work against
09:19 < jmbuser> quaid: Sure
09:19 < quaid> you could make a subpage DP/Schedule/UserGuide, for example
09:20 < jmbuser> quaid: ok - one big deadline or phases?
09:21 < quaid> well, there have to be some phases
09:21 < quaid> finished in wiki, converted to XML, finish that draft, then publish and drop for trans
09:21 < quaid> jmbuser: but any more granular than that, it's up to you all
09:22 < quaid> ok, and I think we need the same thing for the AG
09:22 < quaid> but we need to take it off the regular agenda, since we are pushing it out a bit to land between releases
09:22 < jmbuser> quaid: ok, any thoughts on a realistic date for "finished in wiki"?
09:23 < quaid> ... since we don't have a team formalized around it, per se ...
09:23 < couf> jmbuser: within 2-3 weeks?
09:23 < couf> quaid: +1
09:23 < quaid> yeah, try two weeks
09:23  * stickster drops in for a sec
09:23 < quaid> here's the thing ... we want to make it better than before, resolve as much of the bad stuff as we can
09:23 < stickster> IG copy is available at my page fp.o/PaulWFrields/Drafs
09:24 < quaid> so I might argue for a feature-based release of the UG v. a time-based release
09:24 < quaid> however!
09:24 < stickster> I resolved many bugs with it, but Rawhide has been difficult to test with recently
09:24 < jmbuser> couf: I do end-of-month reporting in my day job...and it's end of the month, unfortunately
09:24 < stickster> It is back today
09:24 < quaid> we don't want the kitten to die ..
09:24 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser at 195.229.24.83] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
09:24 < quaid> so, I reckon we set an artificial deadline 
09:24 < stickster> re IG: didn't make any special notice to l10n but some teams are keeping up, notably "pt"
09:24 < quaid> and see how much we can do in that timeframe, then call if we want to stop or continue
09:25 < quaid> stickster: ok
09:25  * stickster ducks out again, sorry to intersperse comments
09:25 < quaid> stickster: I'll make a point to read through ASAPso we can put it to bed
09:25 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser at 195.229.24.83] has joined #fedora-docs
09:25  * quaid repeats for jmbuser 
09:25 < quaid> we don't want the kitten to die ..
09:25 < quaid> so, I reckon we set an artificial deadline 
09:25 < quaid> and see how much we can do in that timeframe, then call if we want to stop or continue
09:25 < couf> jmbuser: no problem, just an idea :-)
09:25 < quaid> jmbuser: so, a "time based release" that is influenced by how we feel the features are close to complete
09:25  * couf needs to drop for some minutes
09:26 < quaid> so, three weeks to give you the week you need here for $DAYJOB
09:26 < jmbuser> quaid: Sounds good
09:26 < quaid> I intend to do the Heavy Editing Hammer of Thor part, and I'll need a few more weeks to be able to do that anyway :)
09:26 < quaid> ok, then
09:27 < quaid> the relnotes are good
09:27 < quaid> all GOLD and stuff
09:27 < quaid> and looks like we'll have some zero-day updates
09:27 < quaid> I presume that means we'll update the package as well as push live to the Web
09:27 < quaid> now ...
09:27 < quaid> there is the Web-only update
09:27 < jmbuser> I would like to do the common apps/desktop-specific apps approach, allowing for "include" magic to create a GNOME and KDE Live Cd edition
09:28 -!- EvilBob [n=Robert at fedora/pdpc.sustaining.BobJensen] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
09:28 < jmbuser> jmbuser (to wrap up the topic of FUG)
09:28 < quaid> I think we're happy with that approach (?)
09:28 < quaid> yes?
09:29 < quaid> i.e., if you choose a KDE install, it's going to install different defaults for certain things, and that is what we are documenting.
09:29 < jmbuser> quaid: Capture updates in the wiki first?
09:29 < quaid> jmbuser: for the relnotes?
09:29 < quaid> yeah, that was what I was pondering here
09:29 < quaid> yes, we need to i) diff the Wiki for the updates, ii) update the XML,and iii) publish from that
09:31 < McGiwer> hm
09:31 < McGiwer> is the final iso spin already done?
09:31 < McGiwer> for F7 release?
09:32 < quaid> yes
09:32 < McGiwer> theoretically it should be
09:32 < McGiwer> but from practice
09:32 < McGiwer> ... ;)
09:33 < McGiwer> ok
09:33 < quaid> ready to move on to tasks?
09:33 < McGiwer> yeah
09:33 < quaid> anything more on stuff to publish for F7?
09:34  * quaid waits a few seconds ...
09:34 < McGiwer> i think i'll translate the relnotes to Polish
09:34 < McGiwer> to be ready for the final release
09:34 < McGiwer> but only for web version
09:34 < McGiwer> as the iso spin is already done :)
09:35 < McGiwer> eof
09:35 < quaid> right
09:35 < quaid> they can go into an update of fedora-release-notes
09:35 < quaid> and people who make Live CD spins of the updated packages will get the Polish translation
09:36 < McGiwer> hmm, indeed
09:36 < McGiwer> good idea :)
09:36 < McGiwer> thx
09:36 < McGiwer> so ok, i think we can go on
09:36 < McGiwer> with the agenda
09:37  * couf comes back
09:38 < couf> quaid: one thing, should we add a relnotes link on the static pages?
09:39 < quaid> ah, good question ...
09:39 < couf> meaning, the static homepage that is (not docs)
09:39 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/_/
09:39 < quaid> that is where the F-7 changes are being worked out
09:39 < quaid> where would we want to put a link?  under TOOLS?
09:40 < McGiwer> hm
09:40 < McGiwer> could be
09:40  * megacoder doesn't think folk should need to drill for that
09:41 < couf> yeah tools or maybe on the same level as the "Get it now"-links
09:41 < quaid> "Release Notes"
09:41 < glezos> btw, great work with the re-engineering of the homepage (i'm sure quaid had something to do with it too)
09:42 < megacoder> "get it now" +1
09:42 < glezos> I have to go guys, if there is something I am needed, ask away, otherwise I'll respond to the list
09:42 < McGiwer> hmm, Get it now would be better
09:42 < McGiwer> than tools, i think
09:42 < McGiwer> ;]
09:43 < McGiwer> so +1 for "Get it now"
09:44 < quaid> glezos: yo, good to see you around; I helped steer the monkeys, ricky zhou and mizmo did all the CSS lifting for sure
09:44 < quaid> I'll try Get it now and we'll see how it looks
09:45 < quaid> well, that is not the same thing as Get it now, though
09:45 < quaid> we'll keep looking
09:45 < quaid> moving along to the Tasks List ...
09:45 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks
09:46 < quaid> so, that is a bug, ugly beast
09:46 < quaid> s/bug/big/
09:46 -!- glezos [n=d at fedora/glezos] has quit ["runnin runnin runnin..."]
09:47 < couf> who's gonna update it?
09:47 < quaid> heh
09:47 < quaid> I'm going to keep working on this stuff after we close, so unless anyone else is hanging around ...
09:48 < quaid> I'll just go ahead and do the edit this week
09:48 < quaid> s/edit/edit and update/
09:48 < quaid> so, ideas to make it work better ...
09:48 < McGiwer> do u need help?
09:48 < quaid> McGiwer: yes, in that we all need to talk about what changes to make to it
09:49 < couf> quaid: any way, we can do something like happend with the */Join stuff
09:49 < quaid> make sub-pages?
09:50 < McGiwer> hmm
09:50 < couf> probably yeah, and keep the main tasklist very small (KISS)
09:50 < quaid> like .... 
09:50 < couf> as in, not scaring away people
09:50 < McGiwer> we could create some main points
09:50 < quaid> DP/Tasks/Easy ?
09:50 < jmbuser> Prioritize
09:50  * stickster stops in for 60 sec
09:50 < McGiwer> and then connect to the main points some sub-tasks
09:50 < McGiwer> :>
09:50 < stickster> quaid: -1
09:51 < couf> ow yeah, that's a different approach, may be better
09:51 < stickster> quaid: DP/Tasks/Difficult
09:51 < quaid> jmbuser: but we can't leave it as one big list, though
09:51 < stickster> bury the things for experts, not the other way 'round
09:51 < quaid> right
09:51 < couf> stickster: +1
09:51 < jmbuser> quaid: Agreed
09:51 < quaid> well, not buried as much ..
09:51 < quaid> ok, so then how about 
09:51 -!- [splinux] [n=splinux at fedora/splinux] has joined #fedora-docs
09:51 < quaid> we divide by difficulty, then use Include() to pull in the /Easy tasks to be front-and-center?
09:52 < quaid> right below a Table of Contents
09:52 < jmbuser> quaid:+1
09:52 < quaid> do we want to group by type?
09:52 < McGiwer> great!
09:52 < McGiwer> :)
09:52 < couf> hmm, not sure
09:52 < McGiwer> +1 for quaid's idea
09:52 < quaid> i.e., "short writing" "long writing" 
09:52 < quaid> "editing" "tools" etc.
09:52 < McGiwer> the second
09:52 < McGiwer> rather
09:52 < McGiwer> editing, tools etc.
09:53 < couf> seems to really bury the "more difficult" stuff
09:53 < couf> I'd use the main tasks as a "You want it Easy -> check out this page and you might wanna learn a+b+c (learn will working)"
09:54 < quaid> that argues for *not* displaying any tasks on that page, but having it be a pointer to sub-pages
09:54 < couf> yeah, that's the only drawback
09:55 < quaid> we could pull the list in below, so it is still there v. a click deeper
09:55 < couf> which seems to be more like the join-page should look like
09:56 < McGiwer> hm
09:56 < quaid> ToC
09:56 < quaid>  How To Take a Task
09:56 < quaid>  Easy Tasks
09:56 < quaid>  Challenging Tasks
09:56 < quaid>  Hard Tasks
09:56 < quaid> == How to ... ==
09:56 < quaid> [[Include(Easy)]]
09:56 < McGiwer> ;d
09:56 < McGiwer> :)
09:57  * stickster likes only listing Easy tasks, than linking at the bottom "If you are looking for something more challenging, *go here*"
09:57 < stickster> repeat as necessary
09:57 < couf> quaid: okay seems sane +1
09:57 < quaid> stickster: I think that is nearly the same thing ...
09:57 < quaid> maybe move the How to around
09:58 < McGiwer> hmm, and what about listing the categories
09:58 < McGiwer> and then, inside
09:58 < McGiwer> divide it to easy and more challenging tasks?
09:58 < quaid> i think organize the list themselves by categories
09:58 < quaid> oic
09:58 < quaid> you mean, "Easy Editing". "Easy Writing", etc
09:59 < quaid> or rather, "Editing > Easy, Editing > Hard"
09:59 < quaid> I guess my concern there is ... putting scary stuff in front of new people :)
09:59 < McGiwer> i mean sth like this:
10:00 < McGiwer> ToC
10:00 < couf> aye, I'd even think the word "edit" will be scary
10:00 < McGiwer> one category
10:00 < McGiwer> second category
10:00 < McGiwer> and inside one category
10:00 < McGiwer> == Easy stuff ==
10:00 < McGiwer> == More challenging stuff ==
10:00 < McGiwer> ;d
10:00 < McGiwer> :)
10:01 < couf> aah, just two categories
10:01 < quaid> that is going to make a list that is too long, though
10:01 < JonRob> one big improvement that is really easy - remove the finished tasks?
10:01 < McGiwer> couf  no
10:01 < McGiwer> more catogories
10:01 < McGiwer> this is just an example
10:01 < McGiwer> hmm
10:01 < couf> JonRob: remove, or move somewhere else?
10:02 < quaid> JonRob: sure, move to another page
10:02 < McGiwer> or just move it to the end of the list
10:02 < McGiwer> or create a new category
10:02 < McGiwer> "Finished"
10:02 < McGiwer> or "Done"
10:03 < JonRob> are you thinking of still keeping the table layout?
10:03 < couf> okay, so we'll have Tasks/Easy, Tasks/Challenge, Task/Difficult, Task/Finished
10:03 < McGiwer> look here http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks
10:04 < McGiwer> there are Closed/Completed Tasks
10:04 < couf> JonRob: good question
10:04 < McGiwer> but in Open tasks
10:04 < McGiwer> thera are still some remaining
10:04  * quaid is not sure how to do this without a table, though
10:04 < McGiwer> and there's a "Done" comment
10:04 < McGiwer> i would be for a table layout
10:04 < JonRob> quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join
10:05 < couf> if we keep the list very small, it's doable without table
10:05 < JonRob> i think this layout works well
10:05 < JonRob> with a ToC
10:05 < couf> JonRob: +1
10:06 < McGiwer> yep, if it's very small
10:06 < McGiwer> :)
10:06 < McGiwer> hmm, brb
10:06 < McGiwer> i have guests
10:06 < McGiwer> :|
10:06 < McGiwer> brb
10:06 < quaid> ok, we can try the list format
10:06 < quaid> it is friendlier
10:06 < JonRob> quaid: sounding enthusiastic!
10:09 < jmbuser> quaid: +1
10:09 < McGiwer> ok, re
10:10 < couf> so what is "Easy"?
10:10  * quaid finishes brushing a little girl's hair
10:10 < quaid> yeah, what is easy
10:11 < quaid> I'm thinking that once we have the right structure, it becomes more obvious what goes where
10:11 < couf> wiki = easy, xml = challenging
10:11 < jmbuser> couf: +1
10:11 < quaid> only if you don't know XML already
10:11 < quaid> actually
10:11 < couf> true that
10:11 < quaid> I think XML is easier for those who know XHTML than a Wiki can be :)
10:12 < quaid> brb, one minute
10:12 < couf> heh, that's a sweeter approach
10:12 < couf> although, that would mean learning CVS for some, which could be a challenge
10:12 < jmbuser> GUI-oriented people like the wiki, CLI-oriented people (AKA developers) like XML
10:13 < JonRob> is there a huge difference between wiki and xml!? besides cvs
10:14 < couf> JonRob: xml is more like xhtml like quaid mentioned above, a bit more formal
10:14 < JonRob> (this is something i'd like to learn at some point :D)
10:15 < couf> the wiki is just text which gets parsed
10:15 < JonRob> couf: thanks
10:15 < couf> JonRob: please do, the more people who know XML, the better :-)
10:15 < jmbuser> XML is good in that it can be used to create many different formats from the same source
10:16 < JonRob> what scares me off it at the min is cvs i think
10:16 < JonRob> and messing up docs!
10:16 < quaid> cvs is easy, if you are worried, use a GUI CVS client :)
10:16 < JonRob> (sorry for distracting the convo, can talk about this another time!)
10:16 < quaid> no, it's poignant, actually
10:16 < jmbuser> Think of cvs as check-in and check-out of docs
10:16 < couf> JonRob: the messing up part is where cvs is so usefull
10:17 < quaid> what is "Easy"?
10:17 < quaid> we cater to the idea that Wiki == easier
10:17 < quaid> and we'll organize around that principle
10:17 < quaid> but it is not necc. true :)
10:17 < couf> aye
10:18 < quaid> ok, so the only decisions is ...
10:18  * quaid writes the two options:
10:18 < quaid> 1. organize by challenge level (easy, hard), then within that have categories (writing, editing, etc.)
10:18 < quaid> 2. organize by category, then within that by challenge level
10:19 < couf> 1st approach seems better, if one wants to do something, one will want to do say something easy
10:19 < couf> not have to dive into "writer" vs "editor"
10:20 < quaid> I think I agree because I think people think of themselves as part of a multiple role, not just one role
10:20 < couf> at first glance
10:20 < JonRob> some people might consider themselves great writers tho, but terrible editors
10:20 < quaid> "sure I develop, i also test, release, etc.)
10:20 < JonRob> so if they went to writer, they might take on a harder task then normally
10:20 < couf> quaid: +1
10:20 < quaid> "so if they want to writer" he heh
10:20  * quaid pokes fun at JonRob 
10:20 < JonRob> ooops
10:22 < couf> btw, we should let go of the "open" - "assinged" distinction
10:22 < couf> let people get into a task that is already assinged
10:22 < JonRob> couf +1
10:22 < couf> s/assinged/assigned
10:23 < couf> (twice)
10:24 < couf> We do need one hitman per task
10:24 < quaid> ok
10:24 < McGiwer> ok, guys
10:24 < McGiwer> i'll read the log later
10:25 < McGiwer> i gotta go
10:25 < McGiwer> i'll send my ideas to the list
10:25 < McGiwer> bye
10:25 < quaid> we're done I thnk
10:25 < McGiwer> ahm, ok
10:25 < McGiwer> :)
10:25 < McGiwer> so bfj
10:25 < McGiwer> bfn
10:25 < McGiwer> ;)
10:25 < quaid> we'll org by difficulty, drop the open/assigned distirnction
10:25 < quaid> and do some light categorization but not so as to scare people off
10:25 < quaid> like "Skills used in this task" "Writing, editing, research"
10:26 < couf> +1
10:27 < couf> note to all (including myself): the hitmen on the task should *not* be only quaid and stickster
10:28 < quaid> heh
10:29 < quaid> that's just cruft from old lists, we'll leave those more open
10:29 < quaid> ok, that should do it
10:29 < quaid> I'll work on that list that way, see where it takes us
10:29 < quaid> since it is just couf and JonRob and I left ...
10:29 < quaid> anything else?
10:30 < JonRob> not that i know off
10:30 < JonRob> didn't notice everyone else leaving!
10:30 < couf> who's publishing the relnotes, I might have missed that?
10:32 < quaid> oh, hmm
10:32 < quaid> unfortunately the list of who can is quite small, not by design
10:32  * quaid wonders if there is time to update the CSS for docs.fp.o
10:33 < JonRob> quaid: what does that involve? i can do css if it helps
10:33 < quaid> JonRob: yes, that mainly
10:33 < quaid> JonRob: are you on #fedora-admin?
10:33 < JonRob> nope
10:34 < quaid> I was just asking riczho, who worked on the CSS for the new front page, if he thought it was possible
10:34 < quaid> we'd want to work with him to make it happen faster
10:34 < quaid> that said, we can update the CSS anytime we want :)
10:34 < JonRob> would be cool to have it in place for f7
10:34 < couf> yeah, but timing is quite short
10:34 < JonRob> mm...4 days?
10:34 < quaid> couf: probably stickster will do it, just because it is faster and easier to do it ourselves than to teach a deprecated publishing system :)
10:35 < quaid> the problem is the static v. SSI, I think
10:35 < couf> quaid: sure, just wondering
10:35 < quaid> docs.fp.o is all PHP SSI built, where the other is static
10:35 < quaid> ok, closing meeting
10:35 < quaid> 5
10:35 < quaid> 4
10:35 < quaid> 3
10:35 < quaid> 2
10:35 < quaid> 1
10:35 < quaid> </meeting>
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