FDSCo Meeting 2008-08-13 IRC log

[Karsten 'quaid' Wade]

On the wiki: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080813

12:04 < quaid> <meeting>
12:04 < quaid> :)
12:04 < quaid> no, I got lost and never made it to the agenda this morning
12:04 < quaid> it's essentially the same
12:05 < quaid> I was hoping ianweller_afk and G might be here, but I think their thuoghts are well known
12:05 < quaid> about wiki page naming
12:05 < quaid> but I think we need a compromise, I think I know what it has to be, and it is not that great but not terrible.
12:05 < couf> G is on IRC-break
12:05 -!- ke4qqq_ [n=ke4qqq at 64.89.94.194.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #fedora-docs
12:06 < quaid> couf: as an action to protect his life and sanity?  or just AFK?
12:06 < couf> the former
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12:06 -!- ke4qqq_ is now known as ke4qqq
12:07 -!- MegaCoder [n=MegaCode at apac-nc01-o.oracle.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving."]
12:07 < quaid> ok
12:07 < quaid> well, like I said, opinion known, etc. :)
12:09 < quaid> ok, so here's my agenda, any additions?
12:09 < quaid> 1. finish wiki page naming
12:09 < quaid> 2. scope package guidelines changes
12:09 < couf> I'm is totally out the loop, but I guess you guys made some good arguments and can make a good decision about it
12:09 < quaid> 3. double-check on release deadlines
12:10 < quaid> 4. ??
12:10 < quaid> couf: 17 < quaid> overholt: can you refresh me on what came from talks with JPackage and Fedora?
12:10 < quaid> ...
12:10 < quaid> sorry, bad paste
12:10 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help_talk:Wiki_Structure
12:10 < quaid> couf: that's the discussion we had, worth a catch up on
12:11 < quaid> ok, if we have any other agenda items ...
12:11 < couf> quaid: thanks
12:11 < ke4qqq> quaid can we add Example_wiki_page to the agenda
12:12 < quaid> ke4qqq: thx
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12:15  * stickster gets off phone with mgr
12:15 < couf> we can move to -meeting if we want to
12:16 < stickster> yeah, what couf said ^^
12:17 -!- denise [n=ddumas at nat/redhat/x-cb3ab6211b37d149] has joined #fedora-docs
12:18 < quaid> </meeting action="move_to_-meeting">
12:18 < quaid> <meeting>
12:18 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs : Wiki page naming
12:18 < quaid> ok, figuring couf has caught up a bit
12:18 < quaid> I have to admit I've waffled again :)
12:19 < quaid> because the compromise position is different from the hardline MediaWiki one
12:19 < quaid> so I'm back to this:
12:20 < quaid> 1. Foo_Project/ and Foo_SIG/ effectively separate contributor-focused content, by subject areas, away from end-user content
12:20 -!- kushal [n=kdas at nat/redhat-in/x-2362c7bb61c194de] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:20 < quaid> 2. Help_with_Foo is the best way to do *all* end-user focused content; all such content can be moved from e.g. SELinux/FAQ to FAQ_for_SELinux
12:21 < quaid> 3. Then we move all meeting stuff to Meeting:, archive stuff to Archive:, all without changing any other part of the name
12:21 < quaid> the controversy is around 1.
12:21 < quaid> here are my reasons why I think that has to be the compromise:
12:21 -!- cassmodiah [n=cass at p54AB6F63.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:21 < quaid> * it's too hard to explain why a massive change of everything to people who *like* stuff organized by Nested/Folders
12:22 < quaid> * People will get the need to have Real_named_documents, due to search, readibility, etc.
12:22 -!- jsmith [n=jsmith at 72.21.36.138] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:22  * jsmith realizes the time and sneaks in
12:22 < quaid> * We can likely convince people to accept moving names _within_ the Foo_Project/ space
12:22  * quaid pm's the status to jsmith 
12:23 < quaid> * Since contributors like, are used to, and don't care much about changing from nesting (all guessed by me without a single poll!), why make them move?
12:24 < quaid> * Don't make the Foo_Project nesting a requirement either way, let people do it themselves
12:24 < quaid> * We give clear guidelines on how to clean up what is there and how to name in the future
12:24 < quaid> <eolist><eof>
12:24 < quaid> thoughts?
12:24  * ke4qqq respectfully disagrees
12:24 < quaid> yay!
12:24 < quaid> go ahead
12:25 < ke4qqq> thinks single guide to doing it is best.....do it nested or plaintext
12:25 < ke4qqq> plaintext is better for searching
12:25 < quaid> the / doesn't get in the way
12:25 < ke4qqq> pain is no worse for doing some renaming as it is to doing all renaming
12:25 < quaid> it's treated by the search tool as a space
12:25 < ke4qqq> does google agree with that though?
12:25 < ke4qqq> does google treat it as a space?
12:26 < quaid> how do we test that?
12:26 < quaid> I mean, I google for "live usb how to" and the right page turns up
12:26 < quaid> and it has zero spaces, it's all nested CamelCase
12:26 < ke4qqq> hmmm what do I know then
12:26 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr at fedora/JSchmitt] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
12:26 < jsmith> Yes, I think Google does the right thing
12:26 < quaid> ke4qqq: you are right that ambiguity on our part is lame
12:26 < quaid> "
12:26 < quaid> Nest or not, who cares?"
12:26 < quaid> we should guide people to not nest
12:27 -!- kushal [n=kdas at nat/redhat-in/x-2362c7bb61c194de] has quit ["Leaving"]
12:27 < quaid> but tell them they can change it or not, it's up to them, just get the damn sub_pages renamed so they can be found
12:27 < ke4qqq> we just need to pick out one
12:27 < quaid> DocsProject
12:27 -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who_Know at fedora/sonarguy] has quit ["Leaving"]
12:27 < quaid> SIGs/Font was already done by nim-nim 
12:28 < quaid> there is a lot of inertia in the nesting, unless we are prepared to do it all ourselves, we are in the position of convincing others of what is best
12:28 < quaid> and there is a lot of legacy
12:29 < jsmith> We can't force others to do the right thing... all we can do is explain correct principles in such a way that they want to do the right thing
12:29 < jsmith> I think it's a matter of explaining why what they're used to is a bad idea
12:29 < ke4qqq> so if searching isn't the reason - why not use nested?
12:30 < jsmith> I thought searching was the reason
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12:30  * ke4qqq is confused
12:30 -!- buggbot [n=supybot at landfill.bugzilla.org] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:30 < quaid> ke4qqq: the nesting would all have to be single words
12:30 < quaid> this would work though, in terms of MW search:
12:31 < quaid> Foo_Project/Tool_docs/Doc_about_something
12:31 < quaid> it's not natural language, but it would turn up for searches on "Tool" "
12:31 < quaid> "something" and "foo"
12:31 -!- techbugs [n=siddhart at 122.163.194.65] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:33 < couf> fwiw I'm +1 with quaid's compromise
12:34 < quaid> jsmith: I'm not convinced we can explain the "why" well enough to get a higher rate of compliance, if the "what" involves completely renaming every single page
12:34 < quaid> if the "what" is, "Do this now to make your stuff findable, do this in the future to make it good, here is the best and recommended way," then I  think the why goes over better.
12:34 < couf> renaming every page is just overkill and loss of manpower
12:35 < quaid> couf: and if it's really worth it, it will happen for most pages over time anyway
12:35 < couf> true
12:38 < jsmith> quaid: I hate to even ask this out loud, but if we can't explain the "why" well enough, then why are we wasting our time?
12:38 < ke4qqq> has to admit that is a question I was asking myself
12:38 < quaid> now now
12:38 < jsmith> Playing devil's advocate here for a second -- don't get upset at me :-)
12:39 < quaid> two main reasons:
12:39 < quaid> * we need natural language with spaces to get search to be useful
12:39 < quaid> * we need natural language for sane translation
12:39 < quaid> sane(r) trans, anyway
12:39 < jsmith> OK, I'm perfectly happy with those reasons.
12:39 < quaid> i.e., nesting and idioms don't mix well
12:40 < jsmith> But you don't think we can articulate those reasons in such a way that people will want to do the right thing with regards to wiki naming?
12:40 < quaid> so, our "why" covers that but does not fully justify the removing of the single-level of nesting
12:41  * quaid notes search results are a bit funky with Foo_Project all grouped together, but the quality of that is a matter of taste.
12:41 < ke4qqq> those are satisfactory reasons but if they are good enough to remove most nesting why not all.
12:41 < quaid> there are some reasonable arguments in favor of a single-level of nesting
12:42 < quaid> it gets us a sorting of content by contributor interest area without using the more restrictive Namespace: trick in MW
12:42 < quaid> Namespace: moves it outside of the default search
12:42 < quaid> this all stems from having two audiences, IMO
12:43 < quaid> and it being confusing to either audience to find e.g. end-user docs in the contributor search results
12:44  * stickster is assuming all bets are off in the User: namespace
12:45 < quaid> yep
12:46 < quaid> in fact, that's something we do want to specify; use that area at will
12:48 < stickster> Discussion seems to have petered out.
12:48 < stickster> Has a decision been taken then?
12:48 -!- mclasen [n=mclasen at nat/redhat/x-281775b2292f2fd4] has left #fedora-meeting ["There must be some way out of here."]
12:48 < stickster> Is wiki naming put to bed now?
12:49 -!- Keybuk [n=scott at quest.netsplit.com] has left #fedora-meeting ["夠荒唐"]
12:49  * ke4qqq didn't see a decision
12:50 < wonderer1> so what are so far the naming conventions? if users did not do their own user. name naming...
12:50  * couf hopes to put it to bed
12:51  * ke4qqq is fine with decision by fiat
12:51 < wonderer1> for me it works fine. just want to know befor I start with orphaned pages and so on...
12:51 < stickster> quaid: Can you summarize the final decision on how we're going to do this?
12:53 < quaid> hmm
12:53 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr at p4FDD252C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:53 < quaid> I think it's basically on Help:Wiki_Naming (a name that doesn't quite follow the directions)
12:54 < quaid> I can do a final write up there
12:54 < wonderer1> sounds good
12:54 < quaid> but before I say "this is the decision"
12:54 < quaid> are we in fact decided?
12:54 < quaid> the objections that ke4qqq brings up are the same ones I hear in other places,
12:55 < stickster> Let's make this clear.
12:55 < quaid> so this is what I would like to do:
12:55 < quaid> * Write up a decision to vote up or down on the mailing list
12:55 < quaid> * invite discussion
12:56  * jsmith wonders if he haven't already had enough discussion (how many weeks has this been on the agenda?)
12:56 < stickster> Wait, haven't we had that before?
12:56  * ke4qqq disagrees - we've tried discussion (me once, ian once, and quaid once) and none ensued
12:56 < quaid> * see if we can get a good "why" page from that discussion as a reason behind the "what" in Help:Wiki_structure
12:56 < quaid> hmm
12:56 < jsmith> I say we vote here, now, and then work to get a good "why" page up
12:56  * couf needs to run, sorry folks
12:57 < quaid> fine
12:57 < stickster> couf: Please vote later by email if desired
12:57 < ke4qqq> jsmith: +1
12:57 < couf> stickster: will do
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12:57  * jsmith would rather get flamed for a quick vote than see this drag on for another month
12:57 < stickster> jsmith: +1
12:58 < quaid> +1 or -1 to:  Do we permit _Project and _SIG content to remain under a single nesting?
12:58 < couf> +1
12:58 < stickster> +1
12:58 < jsmith> I have no problem with single nesting personally
12:58 < jsmith> +1
12:58 < wonderer1> +1
12:58 < ke4qqq> +1
12:58 < quaid> I'm +1, fwiw
12:58 < stickster> yay!
12:58 < quaid> ok, then we have ianweller_afk outvoted anyway :)
12:58 < quaid> note: permit, not encourage :)
12:59 < couf> +1 :)
12:59 < stickster> +1 again.
12:59 < quaid>  everyone watch that page 
12:59 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_structure
12:59  * couf really runs
12:59 < quaid> and I'll write up the final version
13:00 < quaid> unless someone else feels it is clear to them and wants to do it :)
13:00  * jsmith makes a motion to propose that quaid do it
13:01  * stickster +1's jsmith and then slaps him
13:01 < quaid> time's up anyway
13:01 < quaid> I'll do it
13:01 < quaid> anything more, see you on #fedora-docs
13:01 < quaid> </meeting>

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