From ccurran at redhat.com Fri Jul 4 05:05:20 2008 From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:05:20 +1000 Subject: Why aren't we linking to fedorahosted? Message-ID: <486DAF90.2040902@redhat.com> We have so many great projects on fedorahosted.org, many of which maintain their own documents. My question is why don't we have links to these projects? We should have a connection between them and the documentation on fedora.org And yes I am sticking my hand up, I just don't know how we would go about it or our reasons for not doing it at the moment. The other possible option is to talk to the package maintainers and host the documentation on fedora.org and have them link to us ! Chris (aka Tsagadai) From cwcarlson at cox.net Sat Jul 5 18:57:41 2008 From: cwcarlson at cox.net (Chris Carlson) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 11:57:41 -0700 Subject: Manipulate the Wiki Message-ID: <486FC425.4000309@cox.net> I was trying to update the contributor's page with my information, but it seems that I can't "login" to it. I guess I thought I created an account and all when I joined the documentation project. Do I need a separate account for it than the fedora project? Thanks, Chris From ianweller at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 19:20:43 2008 From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 14:20:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Manipulate the Wiki In-Reply-To: <486FC425.4000309@cox.net> References: <486FC425.4000309@cox.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jul 2008, Chris Carlson wrote: > I was trying to update the contributor's page with my information, but it > seems that I can't "login" to it. > Use your Fedora Account System login. If you have any other problems, stop by #fedora-admin on freenode. -- Ian Weller http://ianweller.org GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36 "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet." ~ Douglas Adams From stickster at gmail.com Sun Jul 6 16:16:58 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 12:16:58 -0400 Subject: Why aren't we linking to fedorahosted? In-Reply-To: <486DAF90.2040902@redhat.com> References: <486DAF90.2040902@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:05 AM, Christopher Curran wrote: > We have so many great projects on fedorahosted.org, many of which maintain > their own documents. > > My question is why don't we have links to these projects? We should have a > connection between them and the documentation on fedora.org > > And yes I am sticking my hand up, I just don't know how we would go about it > or our reasons for not doing it at the moment. > > The other possible option is to talk to the package maintainers and host the > documentation on fedora.org and have them link to us ! I'm assuming you mean http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ and not that other site (which has no connection to the Fedora Project). :-) I think that: 1. A link to fedorahosted.org makes sense to help people visiting docs.fedoraproject.org -- or any *.fedoraproject.org, for that matter -- find other projects they care about. Maybe this is a question for the websites team: should the Hosted area be linked as part of the quick links on our templates site-wide? (Also, this indicates that our docs site needs to have the same template as the rest of fp.o, but I believe someone's already working on that, yes?) 2. Hosting all that documentation on docs.fedoraproject.org actually decreases the likelihood it will be maintained -- the idea should be to get docs people involved with helping the upstream projects, rather than trying to swallow their documents into our own site. (It seems to me that we've tried going down the latter road before, and shown that we don't have the resources for that kind of maintenance.) Paul From ccurran at redhat.com Sun Jul 6 22:54:03 2008 From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 08:54:03 +1000 Subject: Why aren't we linking to fedorahosted? In-Reply-To: References: <486DAF90.2040902@redhat.com> Message-ID: <48714D0B.4050809@redhat.com> Paul Frields wrote: > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:05 AM, Christopher Curran wrote: > >> We have so many great projects on fedorahosted.org, many of which maintain >> their own documents. >> >> My question is why don't we have links to these projects? We should have a >> connection between them and the documentation on fedora.org >> >> And yes I am sticking my hand up, I just don't know how we would go about it >> or our reasons for not doing it at the moment. >> >> The other possible option is to talk to the package maintainers and host the >> documentation on fedora.org and have them link to us ! >> > > I'm assuming you mean http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ and not that > other site (which has no connection to the Fedora Project). :-) > > Yes, that's the one. > I think that: > > 1. A link to fedorahosted.org makes sense to help people visiting > docs.fedoraproject.org -- or any *.fedoraproject.org, for that matter > -- find other projects they care about. Maybe this is a question for > the websites team: should the Hosted area be linked as part of the > quick links on our templates site-wide? (Also, this indicates that > our docs site needs to have the same template as the rest of fp.o, but > I believe someone's already working on that, yes?) > > Symmetric links would be nice. We could link to their docs, they could link to ours. > 2. Hosting all that documentation on docs.fedoraproject.org actually > decreases the likelihood it will be maintained -- the idea should be > to get docs people involved with helping the upstream projects, rather > than trying to swallow their documents into our own site. (It seems to > me that we've tried going down the latter road before, and shown that > we don't have the resources for that kind of maintenance.) > > Taking everything on is a bad idea. I think participating in upstream projects is more constructive (and on a distro level fedora is the upstream project). We should link to upstream documents though, there are some good documents in fedorahosted and on individual project sites. Becoming a hub for information is certainly a way to get more attention and subsequent participation. So what do you think Paul and others? > Paul > > From martin.x.long at jpmchase.com Thu Jul 10 01:02:18 2008 From: martin.x.long at jpmchase.com (martin.x.long at jpmchase.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:02:18 -0700 Subject: Subject Self-Introduction: Martin Long Message-ID: Martin Long San Francisco, United States of America Information Technology Professional J. P. Morgan My goals in regard to the Fedora project are two fold; I would like to maintain and improve my writing skills as well as work with the development teams on direction and requirement documents especially revolving around the Live USB feature. I would like to write ?How to? documents with screen shots as well as detailed requirement documents. Other documentation that I want to see published is high level architecture documents on the Live USB architecture. I would also like to get involved in steering the Live USB solution?s security, backup, and recovery. Historic Qualifications: The only modern certification I?ve had is a CISSP (Certified Information Systems Security Professional {expired sep07}). I have been working on and doing documentation on UNIX systems since 1985. It was a derivation of Version 7 with a bash shell. A former developer for Xerox developed a GUI for us. Since then I?ve worked on SCO, AIX, UTS, Lynx and HPUX. During those many projects I have written many ?How To? documents as well as a users guide and marketing material for a software quality tool set that was written in ?c? for testing c/c++ code. I have also written some ?How to? documents for install and use of an encryption program that I developed in REXX for a banking client. My level of computer skills is probably better than most. Other skills I have that might be applicable are: Some web design, user interface design, programming, I?ve also done a lot of presentations and Sales. I have developed, documented and executed large scale computer deployments for both IBM and HP. I?m a great match for this project because I have had to do the documentation for projects like this as well as drive these projects, so I know how important it is to have the necessary documentation. [MLONG01 at localhost ~]$ gpg --fingerprint F74878E5 pub 1024D/F74878E5 2008-07-09 Martin Long (Office) Key fingerprint = A7E9 B342 08D5 A80D 0964 741C 58A3 7F7B F748 78E5 sub 2048g/60891D9E 2008-07-09 [expires: 2009-07-09] ----------------------------------------- This communication is for informational purposes only. It is not intended as an offer or solicitation for the purchase or sale of any financial instrument or as an official confirmation of any transaction. All market prices, data and other information are not warranted as to completeness or accuracy and are subject to change without notice. Any comments or statements made herein do not necessarily reflect those of JPMorgan Chase & Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates. This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential, legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Although this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by JPMorgan Chase & Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as applicable, for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. Please refer to http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures for disclosures relating to UK legal entities. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 12:02:24 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:02:24 +0000 Subject: Subject Self-Introduction: Martin Long In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1215691344.31212.99.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-07-09 at 18:02 -0700, martin.x.long at jpmchase.com wrote: > > Martin Long > San Francisco, United States of America > Information Technology Professional > J. P. Morgan > My goals in regard to the Fedora project are two fold; I would like to > maintain and improve my writing skills as well as work with the > development teams on direction and requirement documents especially > revolving around the Live USB feature. > I would like to write ?How to? documents with screen shots as well as > detailed requirement documents. > Other documentation that I want to see published is high level > architecture documents on the Live USB architecture. > I would also like to get involved in steering the Live USB solution?s > security, backup, and recovery. This is great, Martin! I would suggest that, if you've already got your Fedora account, you can get right to work on the Wiki. We need better LiveUSB pages, so a how-to would fit right in. A good start would be to look at what's already on the wiki for Live USB, and then just jump in and make it better in any way you see fit. Let us know when you have a draft that works for you, and people here can review and comment on it for you. There's a great Talk feature on each page where people can put comments without disturbing the draft itself. Or just edit where you feel necessary! -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 20:48:11 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:48:11 +0200 Subject: Talking points Message-ID: <64b14b300807101348t1b6d40a8v9efb258002d46f9a@mail.gmail.com> There are couple of wiki pages pointing to here; http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9/TalkingPoints and that is a "dead" page. I read http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 in preparing to give a speach about Fedora when I saw this. Also the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 page has some "TODOs" that seam to be forgotten. Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 21:02:00 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:02:00 +0000 Subject: Talking points In-Reply-To: <64b14b300807101348t1b6d40a8v9efb258002d46f9a@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300807101348t1b6d40a8v9efb258002d46f9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1215723720.31212.261.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 22:48 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > There are couple of wiki pages pointing to here; > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9/TalkingPoints > > and that is a "dead" page. I took about 60 seconds to turn this into a redirection -- the content was broken because it was converted from Moin and didn't quite work. > I read http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 in preparing to give a > speach about Fedora when I saw this. > > Also the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 page has some > "TODOs" that seam to be forgotten. These are "owned" by the release engineering team, but anyone can fix them. It's a wiki! Roll up your sleeves and edit away. ;-) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 21:06:38 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:06:38 +0200 Subject: Talking points In-Reply-To: <1215723720.31212.261.camel@victoria> References: <64b14b300807101348t1b6d40a8v9efb258002d46f9a@mail.gmail.com> <1215723720.31212.261.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <64b14b300807101406s35d99739i7599d84b90da8f06@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 22:48 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> There are couple of wiki pages pointing to here; >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9/TalkingPoints >> >> and that is a "dead" page. > > I took about 60 seconds to turn this into a redirection -- the content > was broken because it was converted from Moin and didn't quite work. > >> I read http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 in preparing to give a >> speach about Fedora when I saw this. >> >> Also the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 page has some >> "TODOs" that seam to be forgotten. > > These are "owned" by the release engineering team, but anyone can fix > them. It's a wiki! Roll up your sleeves and edit away. ;-) If I knew how I would, and I would rather email to the list than to get the "heat" for editing it wrong or redirecting it to the wrong page. Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 21:08:25 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:08:25 +0200 Subject: Talking points In-Reply-To: <64b14b300807101406s35d99739i7599d84b90da8f06@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300807101348t1b6d40a8v9efb258002d46f9a@mail.gmail.com> <1215723720.31212.261.camel@victoria> <64b14b300807101406s35d99739i7599d84b90da8f06@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300807101408m1a3ba8c6i4c1da2833fef8ad0@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 22:48 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: >>> There are couple of wiki pages pointing to here; >>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9/TalkingPoints >>> >>> and that is a "dead" page. >> >> I took about 60 seconds to turn this into a redirection -- the content >> was broken because it was converted from Moin and didn't quite work. >> >>> I read http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 in preparing to give a >>> speach about Fedora when I saw this. >>> >>> Also the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 page has some >>> "TODOs" that seam to be forgotten. >> >> These are "owned" by the release engineering team, but anyone can fix >> them. It's a wiki! Roll up your sleeves and edit away. ;-) > > If I knew how I would, and I would rather email to the list than to > get the "heat" for editing it wrong or redirecting it to the wrong > page. > > Cheers, > Valent. > > > > -- > http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ > linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless > registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. > ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic > ps. the page (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/TalkingPoints) still shows only empty page. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 21:20:35 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:20:35 +0200 Subject: Talking points In-Reply-To: <64b14b300807101408m1a3ba8c6i4c1da2833fef8ad0@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300807101348t1b6d40a8v9efb258002d46f9a@mail.gmail.com> <1215723720.31212.261.camel@victoria> <64b14b300807101406s35d99739i7599d84b90da8f06@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300807101408m1a3ba8c6i4c1da2833fef8ad0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300807101420w4d8cab0bi5e28d069045e8f78@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Valent Turkovic > wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >>> On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 22:48 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: >>>> There are couple of wiki pages pointing to here; >>>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9/TalkingPoints >>>> >>>> and that is a "dead" page. >>> >>> I took about 60 seconds to turn this into a redirection -- the content >>> was broken because it was converted from Moin and didn't quite work. >>> >>>> I read http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 in preparing to give a >>>> speach about Fedora when I saw this. >>>> >>>> Also the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 page has some >>>> "TODOs" that seam to be forgotten. >>> >>> These are "owned" by the release engineering team, but anyone can fix >>> them. It's a wiki! Roll up your sleeves and edit away. ;-) >> >> If I knew how I would, and I would rather email to the list than to >> get the "heat" for editing it wrong or redirecting it to the wrong >> page. >> >> Cheers, >> Valent. >> >> >> >> -- >> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ >> linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless >> registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. >> ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic >> > > > ps. the page (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/TalkingPoints) > still shows only empty page. It works now. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 22:18:29 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:18:29 +0000 Subject: Talking points In-Reply-To: <64b14b300807101406s35d99739i7599d84b90da8f06@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300807101348t1b6d40a8v9efb258002d46f9a@mail.gmail.com> <1215723720.31212.261.camel@victoria> <64b14b300807101406s35d99739i7599d84b90da8f06@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1215728309.31212.308.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 23:06 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 22:48 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > >> There are couple of wiki pages pointing to here; > >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9/TalkingPoints > >> > >> and that is a "dead" page. > > > > I took about 60 seconds to turn this into a redirection -- the content > > was broken because it was converted from Moin and didn't quite work. > > > >> I read http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 in preparing to give a > >> speach about Fedora when I saw this. > >> > >> Also the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 page has some > >> "TODOs" that seam to be forgotten. > > > > These are "owned" by the release engineering team, but anyone can fix > > them. It's a wiki! Roll up your sleeves and edit away. ;-) > > If I knew how I would, and I would rather email to the list than to > get the "heat" for editing it wrong or redirecting it to the wrong > page. I used the #REDIRECT macro to do it. I googled for "mediawiki redirect" because I couldn't remember how it worked (too many wikis in one lifetime). -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From eric at christensenplace.us Fri Jul 11 00:52:43 2008 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:52:43 -0400 Subject: Task List Message-ID: <4876AEDB.2020504@christensenplace.us> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I redesigned the Task List [1] for the Docs Project. If you are working on a task please put it in the table. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks Eric -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkh2rtgACgkQL5V8yddJCO3zyACeIsyCZoCJ7zfs37zR1h1QzPiT HIEAn1+UCrWe5m38+3ylhXy69JgcHAaK =2bUp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 01:36:58 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 01:36:58 +0000 Subject: Release notes overhaul Message-ID: <1215740218.31212.351.camel@victoria> Do you want to see Release Notes disappear in Fedora 10? No? I thought not. :-) But as I see it, the process is at some risk -- part of it works great: the beats process. Well OK, it works pretty well. The *concept* is great, and has been proven many times over, and also works for other projects like Fedora Weekly News. But we need people to actively comb through the responsibility list and find people to take care of those beats now as we start to gear up for F10 Alpha and beyond, toward the final release in the autumn. But the wiki platform has changed. Hopefully we will have a DocBook converter for MediaWiki shortly, but I don't know if there's a definitive status for that yet. In the past, I've been one of the folks who's helped with the release notes process, but I don't expect to have that kind of time on my hands for Fedora 10. If we want to continue having the best Release Notes of any Linux distribution on the planet, the time to get cracking is now! :-) I think the current process pretty much sucks, and I'd be very open to throwing it away in favor of a publican-based process. But that process needs to satisfy several needs: * allow wiki based beat creation/editing * creates ASCII and HTML versions * creates one or more RPM packages that satisfy the current functionality of fedora-release-notes (I'm totally happy if they get split apart, and that may make lots of sense) * has to be achievable by more people than me :-) Here's my plan: * I will continue to add content if/as needed to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Drafts/ReleaseNotesHowto to document how the current process works. * If you come, be prepared to take on a task and doggedly pursue it to completion by the following week. We need action. * My general idea for the new process is to: 1. Move each of the pieces of fedora-release-notes into git repos 2. Write a Makefile for each of the pieces that uses publican{,-fedora} to build what's needed for new RPMs 3. Update fedora-release-notes RPM in Package CVS 4. Get other packages included in comps as appropriate So if you think this is a beg for help... well, it is. :-) But we have quite a handful of weeks to get tasks done. Who's up to the challenge? -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dev at nigelj.com Fri Jul 11 03:27:55 2008 From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:27:55 +1200 Subject: Wiki Business Message-ID: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> Hi all, two items of business that I want to bring up 1) We now have a bot on the wiki, appropriately named Wikibot, this can be used for general repetitive tasks such as en-mass addition of categories to pages, and some general clean-up tasks that needs to/should happen once in a while. 2) Some pages are getting a bit too big, while some are getting useless as time goes on (information for EOL releases. As such I propose the addition of two new name spaces... a) Archive: (without talk pages) Purpose - To allow archiving wiki pages pertaining to EOL releases, and/or are no longer relevant to the general user Benefits - With proper setup (not searched by default for instance) we can help speed up searches and remove old information from general end users, BUT still be there for those interested. Pages like the old Extras and FSA pages come to mind immediately. b) Meeting: (with talk pages) Purpose - Allow some separation of end-user based content and board/committee/group meeting logs Benefits - Marginal, similar to the purpose of Archive though, basically, somewhere to keep meeting logs in a place where they can be optionally searched but not by default An alternative to a meeting name space is with proper logging of the meeting channels automatically posting meeting logs on Fedora People (or similar). As for the large pages, well we have pages that are well in excess of the 32KB recommended by the Mediawiki folk, stuff like https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChristianIseli/PackageReviewStatus (200KB+) would be better suited to Fedora People, but we don't really have any mandate on this. (it'd be nice to have one). Thoughts, Comments, Suggestions? Nigel From eric at christensenplace.us Fri Jul 11 10:51:11 2008 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:51:11 -0400 Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> Message-ID: <48773B1F.9080509@christensenplace.us> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Nigel, Is it possible to have the bot add a category (TOO BIG) to all the pages that are larger than 32KB? I like the Archive: and the Meeting:. Eric Nigel Jones wrote: | Hi all, two items of business that I want to bring up | | 1) We now have a bot on the wiki, appropriately named Wikibot, this can | be used for general repetitive tasks such as en-mass addition of | categories to pages, and some general clean-up tasks that needs | to/should happen once in a while. | 2) Some pages are getting a bit too big, while some are getting useless | as time goes on (information for EOL releases. As such I propose the | addition of two new name spaces... | | a) Archive: (without talk pages) | Purpose - To allow archiving wiki pages pertaining to EOL releases, | and/or are no longer relevant to the general user | Benefits - With proper setup (not searched by default for instance) we | can help speed up searches and remove old information from general end | users, BUT still be there for those interested. Pages like the old | Extras and FSA pages come to mind immediately. | | b) Meeting: (with talk pages) | Purpose - Allow some separation of end-user based content and | board/committee/group meeting logs | Benefits - Marginal, similar to the purpose of Archive though, | basically, somewhere to keep meeting logs in a place where they can be | optionally searched but not by default | | An alternative to a meeting name space is with proper logging of the | meeting channels automatically posting meeting logs on Fedora People (or | similar). | | As for the large pages, well we have pages that are well in excess of | the 32KB recommended by the Mediawiki folk, stuff like | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChristianIseli/PackageReviewStatus | (200KB+) would be better suited to Fedora People, but we don't really | have any mandate on this. (it'd be nice to have one). | | Thoughts, Comments, Suggestions? | | Nigel | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkh3Ox0ACgkQL5V8yddJCO0LCgCeNwyVclkZsKspboSth7tHre6G 64AAnjFhTTyEFZAtkGKP0B3uwHloZKAz =ILr3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dev at nigelj.com Fri Jul 11 11:00:23 2008 From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:00:23 +1200 Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: <48773B1F.9080509@christensenplace.us> References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> <48773B1F.9080509@christensenplace.us> Message-ID: <48773D47.4020201@nigelj.com> Eric Christensen wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Nigel, > Is it possible to have the bot add a category (TOO BIG) to all the pages > that are larger than 32KB? I like the Archive: and the Meeting:. I should be able to if it's wanted, but https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Longpages does a good job already. Most of these pages are exactly what I was talking about in my e-mail below... - Nigel > > Eric > > > > Nigel Jones wrote: > | Hi all, two items of business that I want to bring up > | > | 1) We now have a bot on the wiki, appropriately named Wikibot, this > can > | be used for general repetitive tasks such as en-mass addition of > | categories to pages, and some general clean-up tasks that needs > | to/should happen once in a while. > | 2) Some pages are getting a bit too big, while some are getting > useless > | as time goes on (information for EOL releases. As such I propose the > | addition of two new name spaces... > | > | a) Archive: (without talk pages) > | Purpose - To allow archiving wiki pages pertaining to EOL releases, > | and/or are no longer relevant to the general user > | Benefits - With proper setup (not searched by default for instance) we > | can help speed up searches and remove old information from general end > | users, BUT still be there for those interested. Pages like the old > | Extras and FSA pages come to mind immediately. > | > | b) Meeting: (with talk pages) > | Purpose - Allow some separation of end-user based content and > | board/committee/group meeting logs > | Benefits - Marginal, similar to the purpose of Archive though, > | basically, somewhere to keep meeting logs in a place where they can be > | optionally searched but not by default > | > | An alternative to a meeting name space is with proper logging of the > | meeting channels automatically posting meeting logs on Fedora People > (or > | similar). > | > | As for the large pages, well we have pages that are well in excess of > | the 32KB recommended by the Mediawiki folk, stuff like > | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChristianIseli/PackageReviewStatus > | (200KB+) would be better suited to Fedora People, but we don't really > | have any mandate on this. (it'd be nice to have one). > | > | Thoughts, Comments, Suggestions? > | > | Nigel > | > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAkh3Ox0ACgkQL5V8yddJCO0LCgCeNwyVclkZsKspboSth7tHre6G > 64AAnjFhTTyEFZAtkGKP0B3uwHloZKAz > =ILr3 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Fri Jul 11 11:16:43 2008 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:16:43 +0200 Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: <48773D47.4020201@nigelj.com> References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> <48773B1F.9080509@christensenplace.us> <48773D47.4020201@nigelj.com> Message-ID: <1215775003.6723.25.camel@rousalka.okg> Hi, Is it possible to ask the bot to copy changes in a set of categories/namespaces to a SIG mailing list? -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From dev at nigelj.com Fri Jul 11 11:55:10 2008 From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:55:10 +1200 Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> Message-ID: <48774A1E.4090809@nigelj.com> Max Spevack wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jul 2008, Nigel Jones wrote: > >> 1) We now have a bot on the wiki, appropriately named Wikibot, this >> can be used for general repetitive tasks such as en-mass addition of >> categories to pages, and some general clean-up tasks that needs >> to/should happen once in a while. > > How do we use it? Do you have any examples? It sounds cool! It's basically on a place a request and I'll find the best way to do it and then do it. Thankfully I have a couple of machines close to PHX with a decent bandwidth allocation so the by request model will work for now. Things that'll run on a regular basis are: * Redirect fixes (when someone creates a 'double-redirect' Mediawiki gets a bit unhappy so it's a good idea to clean these up) * Interwiki updates (this'll happen when l10n wikis are deployed, it'll basically create a cross reference of what pages in the different languages contain what information - VERY useful) * Deletions (note these don't get attributed to the bot) Other common tasks would be: * Template changes * Category additions/changes/removals * Text replacement (note I'm only tentatively listing at the moment) Also, anything else that you can see automated on the Wikimedia wikis via bots, you can let me know and I'll try my best! > >> 2) Some pages are getting a bit too big, while some are getting >> useless as time goes on (information for EOL releases. As such I >> propose the addition of two new name spaces... >> >> a) Archive: (without talk pages) >> Purpose - To allow archiving wiki pages pertaining to EOL releases, >> and/or are no longer relevant to the general user >> Benefits - With proper setup (not searched by default for instance) >> we can help speed up searches and remove old information from general >> end users, BUT still be there for those interested. Pages like the >> old Extras and FSA pages come to mind immediately. >> >> b) Meeting: (with talk pages) >> Purpose - Allow some separation of end-user based content and >> board/committee/group meeting logs >> Benefits - Marginal, similar to the purpose of Archive though, >> basically, somewhere to keep meeting logs in a place where they can >> be optionally searched but not by default > > Definitely in favor of the Archive: idea, and don't have a strong > preference either way on the Meeting: idea. K, thanks for the input Max! - Nigel From dev at nigelj.com Fri Jul 11 12:02:31 2008 From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:02:31 +1200 Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: <1215775003.6723.25.camel@rousalka.okg> References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> <48773B1F.9080509@christensenplace.us> <48773D47.4020201@nigelj.com> <1215775003.6723.25.camel@rousalka.okg> Message-ID: <48774BD7.1090904@nigelj.com> Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Hi, > > Is it possible to ask the bot to copy changes in a set of > categories/namespaces to a SIG mailing list? > Sorry, I'm a little bit lost on exactly what is been proposed so correct me if I'm wrong... I'm taking it that your asking for the bot to go through and copy the wiki-diffs for pages in a specific category and then collate them and mail them out. Really this is a bit beyond what any wiki bot normally does, HOWEVER, you can use the API from memory to collate this information. Luke did a brilliant application to collate the top 10 wiki contributors in any 500 edit-period - http://dpaste.com/61536/ Documentation for the Revision API component can be grabbed at http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Query_-_Properties#revisions_.2F_rv Also take a look at my reply to Max with the type of tasks that I had in mind for the wikibot, the main thing is, we need it to keep interwiki links up to date (we can't expect people to go through 5+ wikis to make sure every interwiki link is correct), so while it's not doing interwikis it can do other tasks such as fixing syntax etc. - Nigel From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 12:05:43 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:05:43 +0200 Subject: Talking points In-Reply-To: <1215728309.31212.308.camel@victoria> References: <64b14b300807101348t1b6d40a8v9efb258002d46f9a@mail.gmail.com> <1215723720.31212.261.camel@victoria> <64b14b300807101406s35d99739i7599d84b90da8f06@mail.gmail.com> <1215728309.31212.308.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <64b14b300807110505p4886e170gcac4ce1428d3321b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 12:18 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 23:06 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> > On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 22:48 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> >> There are couple of wiki pages pointing to here; >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9/TalkingPoints >> >> >> >> and that is a "dead" page. >> > >> > I took about 60 seconds to turn this into a redirection -- the content >> > was broken because it was converted from Moin and didn't quite work. >> > >> >> I read http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 in preparing to give a >> >> speach about Fedora when I saw this. >> >> >> >> Also the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9 page has some >> >> "TODOs" that seam to be forgotten. >> > >> > These are "owned" by the release engineering team, but anyone can fix >> > them. It's a wiki! Roll up your sleeves and edit away. ;-) >> >> If I knew how I would, and I would rather email to the list than to >> get the "heat" for editing it wrong or redirecting it to the wrong >> page. > > I used the #REDIRECT macro to do it. I googled for "mediawiki redirect" > because I couldn't remember how it worked (too many wikis in one > lifetime). > > -- > Paul W. Frields > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > Thank you for immediate response, doing it, and also explaining it. I don't know any project that has such an involved project leader! Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From dev at nigelj.com Fri Jul 11 13:54:57 2008 From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:54:57 +1200 Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> Message-ID: <48776631.90600@nigelj.com> Nigel Jones wrote: > Hi all, two items of business that I want to bring up > > 1) We now have a bot on the wiki, appropriately named Wikibot, this > can be used for general repetitive tasks such as en-mass addition of > categories to pages, and some general clean-up tasks that needs > to/should happen once in a while. > 2) Some pages are getting a bit too big, while some are getting > useless as time goes on (information for EOL releases. As such I > propose the addition of two new name spaces... > > a) Archive: (without talk pages) > Purpose - To allow archiving wiki pages pertaining to EOL releases, > and/or are no longer relevant to the general user > Benefits - With proper setup (not searched by default for instance) we > can help speed up searches and remove old information from general end > users, BUT still be there for those interested. Pages like the old > Extras and FSA pages come to mind immediately. > > b) Meeting: (with talk pages) > Purpose - Allow some separation of end-user based content and > board/committee/group meeting logs > Benefits - Marginal, similar to the purpose of Archive though, > basically, somewhere to keep meeting logs in a place where they can be > optionally searched but not by default There is a third... c) QA: (with talk pages) Purpose - Allow QA folks to store software test-cases off the beaten track Benefits - Ease of access for QA members, out of the way for users/developers, not searched on default, but still searchable if people want to Notes - This comes from https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/588 Testopia didn't quite work out and they are still unsure, so if noone has any objections, I'd like to approve this request on the basis of "It's okay with us, just let us know if/when you want to use it". Speak now or forever hold your peace! - Nigel > > An alternative to a meeting name space is with proper logging of the > meeting channels automatically posting meeting logs on Fedora People > (or similar). > > As for the large pages, well we have pages that are well in excess of > the 32KB recommended by the Mediawiki folk, stuff like > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChristianIseli/PackageReviewStatus > (200KB+) would be better suited to Fedora People, but we don't really > have any mandate on this. (it'd be nice to have one). > > Thoughts, Comments, Suggestions? > > Nigel > From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 15:55:10 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:55:10 +0000 Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: <48776631.90600@nigelj.com> References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> <48776631.90600@nigelj.com> Message-ID: <1215791710.8058.37.camel@victoria> On Sat, 2008-07-12 at 01:54 +1200, Nigel Jones wrote: > Nigel Jones wrote: > > Hi all, two items of business that I want to bring up > > > > 1) We now have a bot on the wiki, appropriately named Wikibot, this > > can be used for general repetitive tasks such as en-mass addition of > > categories to pages, and some general clean-up tasks that needs > > to/should happen once in a while. > > 2) Some pages are getting a bit too big, while some are getting > > useless as time goes on (information for EOL releases. As such I > > propose the addition of two new name spaces... > > > > a) Archive: (without talk pages) > > Purpose - To allow archiving wiki pages pertaining to EOL releases, > > and/or are no longer relevant to the general user > > Benefits - With proper setup (not searched by default for instance) we > > can help speed up searches and remove old information from general end > > users, BUT still be there for those interested. Pages like the old > > Extras and FSA pages come to mind immediately. > > > > b) Meeting: (with talk pages) > > Purpose - Allow some separation of end-user based content and > > board/committee/group meeting logs > > Benefits - Marginal, similar to the purpose of Archive though, > > basically, somewhere to keep meeting logs in a place where they can be > > optionally searched but not by default > There is a third... > > c) QA: (with talk pages) > Purpose - Allow QA folks to store software test-cases off the beaten track > Benefits - Ease of access for QA members, out of the way for > users/developers, not searched on default, but still searchable if > people want to > Notes - This comes from > https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/588 Testopia > didn't quite work out and they are still unsure, so if noone has any > objections, I'd like to approve this request on the basis of "It's okay > with us, just let us know if/when you want to use it". > > Speak now or forever hold your peace! With the first two, there's a definite positive return in reducing the visibility of the pages. In the former, it's the whole point, and in the latter, it keeps long pages out of the limelight, while still allowing searchability. But remember that one of the keys to Fedora is transparency. The problems with Testopia can be solved in the medium-term, and the reduction in searchability for QA stuff is, to me, not a win. Keep in mind that I live with a highly-organized wife, so no slight intended, but am I missing the point in this level of binning in the case of a QA: namespace? -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 16:52:33 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:52:33 +0000 Subject: Release notes overhaul In-Reply-To: <1215740218.31212.351.camel@victoria> References: <1215740218.31212.351.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1215795153.8058.55.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 01:36 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Here's my plan: > * I will continue to add content if/as needed to > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Drafts/ReleaseNotesHowto to > document how the current process works. > * If you come, be prepared to take on a task and doggedly pursue it to > completion by the following week. We need action. > * My general idea for the new process is to: > 1. Move each of the pieces of fedora-release-notes into git repos The first one of these is done, to start with: https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes I think we can move along with a parallel workflow for a short time, with Transifex/L10n commits to CVS. Because git has such powerful merging features, we ought to be able to capture any changes necessary into the git repo later. At some point, maybe soon depending on how people feel, we can migrate the Transifex source settings to pull from the git repo(s). > 2. Write a Makefile for each of the pieces that uses > publican{,-fedora} to build what's needed for new RPMs > 3. Update fedora-release-notes RPM in Package CVS > 4. Get other packages included in comps as appropriate -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ianweller at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 16:54:00 2008 From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:54:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2008, Nigel Jones wrote: > Hi all, two items of business that I want to bring up > > 1) We now have a bot on the wiki, appropriately named Wikibot, this can be > used for general repetitive tasks such as en-mass addition of categories to > pages, and some general clean-up tasks that needs to/should happen once in a > while. Woo! > 2) Some pages are getting a bit too big, while some are getting useless as > time goes on (information for EOL releases. As such I propose the addition > of two new name spaces... > > a) Archive: (without talk pages) > Purpose - To allow archiving wiki pages pertaining to EOL releases, and/or > are no longer relevant to the general user > Benefits - With proper setup (not searched by default for instance) we can > help speed up searches and remove old information from general end users, BUT > still be there for those interested. Pages like the old Extras and FSA pages > come to mind immediately. > It's either this, or delete 'em. You can also do some hacks with MediaWiki to automatically include something on a page depending on the namespace; I know it's possible, but I'd have to look into it more. +1 > b) Meeting: (with talk pages) > Purpose - Allow some separation of end-user based content and > board/committee/group meeting logs > Benefits - Marginal, similar to the purpose of Archive though, basically, > somewhere to keep meeting logs in a place where they can be optionally > searched but not by default > +1 > An alternative to a meeting name space is with proper logging of the meeting > channels automatically posting meeting logs on Fedora People (or similar). > We not only don't have this *yet*, but also I think it would still be good for the future-bot to talk to Wikibot and get the pages on the wiki automatically... with talk pages, of course. You bring up another excellent point here, though -- the process for proposing namespaces and getting them decided on and processed. Maybe Karsten can provide some input here (nudge, nudge). > As for the large pages, well we have pages that are well in excess of the > 32KB recommended by the Mediawiki folk, stuff like > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChristianIseli/PackageReviewStatus (200KB+) > would be better suited to Fedora People, but we don't really have any mandate > on this. (it'd be nice to have one). > What we need is a mandate to keep pages below 32 KB. That means either splitting them up into separate pages, or storing them elsewhere. -- Ian Weller http://ianweller.org GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36 "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet." ~ Douglas Adams From dev at nigelj.com Sat Jul 12 00:21:56 2008 From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:21:56 +1200 Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: <1215791710.8058.37.camel@victoria> References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> <48776631.90600@nigelj.com> <1215791710.8058.37.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <4877F924.2060901@nigelj.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sat, 2008-07-12 at 01:54 +1200, Nigel Jones wrote: > >> Nigel Jones wrote: >> >>> Hi all, two items of business that I want to bring up >>> >>> 1) We now have a bot on the wiki, appropriately named Wikibot, this >>> can be used for general repetitive tasks such as en-mass addition of >>> categories to pages, and some general clean-up tasks that needs >>> to/should happen once in a while. >>> 2) Some pages are getting a bit too big, while some are getting >>> useless as time goes on (information for EOL releases. As such I >>> propose the addition of two new name spaces... >>> >>> a) Archive: (without talk pages) >>> Purpose - To allow archiving wiki pages pertaining to EOL releases, >>> and/or are no longer relevant to the general user >>> Benefits - With proper setup (not searched by default for instance) we >>> can help speed up searches and remove old information from general end >>> users, BUT still be there for those interested. Pages like the old >>> Extras and FSA pages come to mind immediately. >>> >>> b) Meeting: (with talk pages) >>> Purpose - Allow some separation of end-user based content and >>> board/committee/group meeting logs >>> Benefits - Marginal, similar to the purpose of Archive though, >>> basically, somewhere to keep meeting logs in a place where they can be >>> optionally searched but not by default >>> >> There is a third... >> >> c) QA: (with talk pages) >> Purpose - Allow QA folks to store software test-cases off the beaten track >> Benefits - Ease of access for QA members, out of the way for >> users/developers, not searched on default, but still searchable if >> people want to >> Notes - This comes from >> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/588 Testopia >> didn't quite work out and they are still unsure, so if noone has any >> objections, I'd like to approve this request on the basis of "It's okay >> with us, just let us know if/when you want to use it". >> >> Speak now or forever hold your peace! >> > > With the first two, there's a definite positive return in reducing the > visibility of the pages. In the former, it's the whole point, and in > the latter, it keeps long pages out of the limelight, while still > allowing searchability. > > But remember that one of the keys to Fedora is transparency. The > problems with Testopia can be solved in the medium-term, and the > reduction in searchability for QA stuff is, to me, not a win. Keep in > mind that I live with a highly-organized wife, so no slight intended, > but am I missing the point in this level of binning in the case of a QA: > namespace? > Okay, my understanding on the QA team's purpose for the namespace is this: * General pages (about the QA team, what they do) remain in the main namespace (under QA/*) * Testcases (what would have been in testopia) would be placed in the QA namespace (QA:*) It's a very subtle difference from what really is of interest to everyone (about the group) and what is specifically targetted to QA team members in Fedora and other FOSS projects. It's nowhere near something to pull the wool over someone's eyes. - Nigel From stickster at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 00:51:28 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:51:28 +0000 Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: <4877F924.2060901@nigelj.com> References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> <48776631.90600@nigelj.com> <1215791710.8058.37.camel@victoria> <4877F924.2060901@nigelj.com> Message-ID: <1215823888.18603.2.camel@victoria> On Sat, 2008-07-12 at 12:21 +1200, Nigel Jones wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Sat, 2008-07-12 at 01:54 +1200, Nigel Jones wrote: > > > >> Nigel Jones wrote: > >> > >>> Hi all, two items of business that I want to bring up > >>> > >>> 1) We now have a bot on the wiki, appropriately named Wikibot, this > >>> can be used for general repetitive tasks such as en-mass addition of > >>> categories to pages, and some general clean-up tasks that needs > >>> to/should happen once in a while. > >>> 2) Some pages are getting a bit too big, while some are getting > >>> useless as time goes on (information for EOL releases. As such I > >>> propose the addition of two new name spaces... > >>> > >>> a) Archive: (without talk pages) > >>> Purpose - To allow archiving wiki pages pertaining to EOL releases, > >>> and/or are no longer relevant to the general user > >>> Benefits - With proper setup (not searched by default for instance) we > >>> can help speed up searches and remove old information from general end > >>> users, BUT still be there for those interested. Pages like the old > >>> Extras and FSA pages come to mind immediately. > >>> > >>> b) Meeting: (with talk pages) > >>> Purpose - Allow some separation of end-user based content and > >>> board/committee/group meeting logs > >>> Benefits - Marginal, similar to the purpose of Archive though, > >>> basically, somewhere to keep meeting logs in a place where they can be > >>> optionally searched but not by default > >>> > >> There is a third... > >> > >> c) QA: (with talk pages) > >> Purpose - Allow QA folks to store software test-cases off the beaten track > >> Benefits - Ease of access for QA members, out of the way for > >> users/developers, not searched on default, but still searchable if > >> people want to > >> Notes - This comes from > >> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/588 Testopia > >> didn't quite work out and they are still unsure, so if noone has any > >> objections, I'd like to approve this request on the basis of "It's okay > >> with us, just let us know if/when you want to use it". > >> > >> Speak now or forever hold your peace! > >> > > > > With the first two, there's a definite positive return in reducing the > > visibility of the pages. In the former, it's the whole point, and in > > the latter, it keeps long pages out of the limelight, while still > > allowing searchability. > > > > But remember that one of the keys to Fedora is transparency. The > > problems with Testopia can be solved in the medium-term, and the > > reduction in searchability for QA stuff is, to me, not a win. Keep in > > mind that I live with a highly-organized wife, so no slight intended, > > but am I missing the point in this level of binning in the case of a QA: > > namespace? > > > Okay, my understanding on the QA team's purpose for the namespace is this: > > * General pages (about the QA team, what they do) remain in the main > namespace (under QA/*) > * Testcases (what would have been in testopia) would be placed in the QA > namespace (QA:*) > > It's a very subtle difference from what really is of interest to > everyone (about the group) and what is specifically targetted to QA team > members in Fedora and other FOSS projects. > > It's nowhere near something to pull the wool over someone's eyes. Sure, not meaning to imply anyone's being all sneaky-like. :-) The way you just explained it, clarifies quite a lot, thanks. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ianweller at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 01:52:06 2008 From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:52:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: <4877F924.2060901@nigelj.com> References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> <48776631.90600@nigelj.com> <1215791710.8058.37.camel@victoria> <4877F924.2060901@nigelj.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 2008, Nigel Jones wrote: > Okay, my understanding on the QA team's purpose for the namespace is this: > > * General pages (about the QA team, what they do) remain in the main > namespace (under QA/*) > * Testcases (what would have been in testopia) would be placed in the QA > namespace (QA:*) > > It's a very subtle difference from what really is of interest to everyone > (about the group) and what is specifically targetted to QA team members in > Fedora and other FOSS projects. > This was also my understanding to how the wiki would be organized. -- Ian Weller http://ianweller.org GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36 "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet." ~ Douglas Adams From eric at christensenplace.us Sat Jul 12 18:50:12 2008 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:50:12 -0400 Subject: FontSIG Request Message-ID: <4878FCE4.7040908@christensenplace.us> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 We have a request from the FontSIG to help them [1] with their documentation [2]. Nicolas Mailhot (Nim) [3] is the contact person. Is anyone available to work with him to try to find out specifically what is needed and to help get it done? [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks#Open_Unassigned_Tasks [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fonts_SIG_tasks [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Nim Thanks, Eric Christensen Fedora Project ~ - Docs Project ~ - Free Media Program E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org GPG Key: D74908ED -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkh4/OIACgkQL5V8yddJCO0wGQCfRFkQQ7upLOgQNVZi++X5SC8m SRcAnjhxw29PfU5d03mVVvsNA7XEelPH =qvc6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sam.folkwilliams at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 20:02:31 2008 From: sam.folkwilliams at gmail.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:02:31 -0400 Subject: need help with virt and kernel release notes, and virt quick start Message-ID: Hi, This email is a bit late in coming. I have been maintaining the virt quickstart, and the release notes beats for kernel and virtualization for some time now. Unfortunately, I no longer have the time to keep up with this. I'm starting school full time on top of work and, unfortunately, it's just not able to hold up my commitment to the docs. Is there anyone who would be able/willing to step up and take ownership of these pages? Thanks, Sam From stickster at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 20:18:37 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:18:37 -0400 Subject: need help with virt and kernel release notes, and virt quick start In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1215980317.31123.47.camel@victoria> On Sun, 2008-07-13 at 16:02 -0400, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > Hi, > > This email is a bit late in coming. I have been maintaining the virt > quickstart, and the release notes beats for kernel and virtualization > for some time now. Unfortunately, I no longer have the time to keep up > with this. I'm starting school full time on top of work and, > unfortunately, it's just not able to hold up my commitment to the > docs. > > Is there anyone who would be able/willing to step up and take > ownership of these pages? Sam, It's good of you to let us know this -- thanks for the help you've given us in the past. At the same time as we find someone to take over this beat, I can't help but ask myself: Which beat writers *haven't* been as courteous as Sam, yet won't be keeping their beats up for F10? -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From linux at blogmethat.net Mon Jul 14 04:41:59 2008 From: linux at blogmethat.net (Andrew Jamison) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 00:41:59 -0400 Subject: Would Like to Help but How? In-Reply-To: <1215980317.31123.47.camel@victoria> References: <1215980317.31123.47.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1216010519.19059.0.camel@f9.localdomain> I am loving Fedora as both a distro of Linux and a secondary (soon to be primary hopefully) OS. I am interested in helping out with the project however I have no programing experience and as such I do not feel a Packager ect would fit I saw the Documentation project and was interested however before comiting tot he project I wanted to find a niche i could write for. I have no clue where to help and think it important to mention that my knowledge of any area of Fedora is by no means expert and may be pushing to call it Intermediate. My question is this! Is there a beat I could help with that would not require a huge amount of knowledge about the product or one I can at least learn about quickly. Thanks, Andrew Jamison -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 315 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 12:01:41 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:01:41 -0400 Subject: Splitting package xmlto - which way is better? In-Reply-To: <1216035130.4597.12.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com> References: <1216035130.4597.12.camel@dhcp-lab-219.englab.brq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1216036901.24527.26.camel@victoria> On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 13:32 +0200, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ond=3Fej_Va=3F=EDk_ wrote: > Hello, > I would like to ask you about splitting package xmlto. > I got request to split xmlto package to throw away passivetex (and TeX) > requirements in the case of xmlto usage for building txt/html > documentation (rhbz #454341). This change is reasonable, but I'm not > sure which way is better. Generally I have two possibilities: > > 1) Split to xmlto and xmlto-base - with xmlto Requires: xmlto-base . In > xmlto-base all binaries, documentation and backends without passivetex > requirements. Main package will contain only three backends (fo to > dvi/ps/pdf) after that change. This will not break any builds in Fedora > Rawhide but raises rpmlint warnings about no binary/documentation in > main package. > 2) Split to xmlto and xmlto-tex . This will break builds which are using > xmlto for building pdf/ps/dvi documentation - additional BuildRequires > for xmlto-tex backends subpackage will be required. > > Which one should be preferred? > > I like the possibility #1 a bit more, although I guess in long-term is > #2 better solution. Any other ideas? I think #2 is definitely the better way to go. The passivetex stuff for building the PDF format, in my experience, has been fragile at best for some time. Although fop is getting closer to usable, and could end up being used by the xmlto scripts for PDF building in the future, it's not there yet -- and when it is, the fop package will also drag in a lot of Java package deps. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 13:03:54 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:03:54 -0400 Subject: MediaWiki extension for PDF creation? Message-ID: <1216040634.24527.67.camel@victoria> http://www.linux.com/feature/141081 Does this look interesting at all? -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dev at nigelj.com Mon Jul 14 13:13:45 2008 From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 01:13:45 +1200 Subject: MediaWiki extension for PDF creation? In-Reply-To: <1216040634.24527.67.camel@victoria> References: <1216040634.24527.67.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <487B5109.80609@nigelj.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > http://www.linux.com/feature/141081 > > Does this look interesting at all? > > Looks like it's licensed under LGPL, I can't remember what the whole deal with using LGPL extensions in Mediawiki (GPL). Also, 'I've noticed that MediaWiki 1.11 requires more memory to create large books. If your book is around a hundred articles you'll need to give PHP 64MB.' - Nigel From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Jul 2 17:10:04 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:10:04 -0400 Subject: yum docs help Message-ID: <1215018604.19021.60.camel@rosebud> Hi folks, we need some help on some yum docs that I'm sure a lot of admins out there have dealt with. I've put together a list of things that I think would help a lot of folks who are using yum/createrepo/etc for the first time and/or are getting involved in slightly more advanced uses. I'd love suggestions for other common (and commonly confusing) cases that could use more docs. Additionally, if anyone wants to help contribute docs on any of these subjects that'd be fantastic. Here's the list: http://skvidal.fedorapeople.org/yum-quickstart-doc-list Thanks, -sv -- I only speak for me. From jhutar at redhat.com Thu Jul 3 11:36:24 2008 From: jhutar at redhat.com (Jan =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Huta=F8?=) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:36:24 +0200 Subject: [Yum] yum docs help In-Reply-To: <1215018604.19021.60.camel@rosebud> References: <1215018604.19021.60.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <20080703133624.daa5fe0c.jhutar@redhat.com> On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:10:04 -0400 seth vidal wrote: > I'd love suggestions for other common (and commonly confusing) cases > that could use more docs. Maybe: * adding yum-arch note for these who need to support older RHELs * some info about yum-updatesd * checksum and open-checksum when you need to manually change repomd.xml file (it is hard to find this, James had to tell me) > Additionally, if anyone wants to help contribute docs on any of these > subjects that'd be fantastic. I would like to (http://wiki.linux.duke.edu/Yum ?). Regards, Jan -- Jan Hutar Quality Assurance Engineer jhutar at redhat.com Red Hat, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Fri Jul 11 11:20:05 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:20:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wiki Business In-Reply-To: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> References: <4876D33B.5020609@nigelj.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2008, Nigel Jones wrote: > 1) We now have a bot on the wiki, appropriately named Wikibot, this can be > used for general repetitive tasks such as en-mass addition of categories to > pages, and some general clean-up tasks that needs to/should happen once in a > while. How do we use it? Do you have any examples? It sounds cool! > 2) Some pages are getting a bit too big, while some are getting useless as > time goes on (information for EOL releases. As such I propose the addition > of two new name spaces... > > a) Archive: (without talk pages) > Purpose - To allow archiving wiki pages pertaining to EOL releases, and/or > are no longer relevant to the general user > Benefits - With proper setup (not searched by default for instance) we can > help speed up searches and remove old information from general end users, BUT > still be there for those interested. Pages like the old Extras and FSA pages > come to mind immediately. > > b) Meeting: (with talk pages) > Purpose - Allow some separation of end-user based content and > board/committee/group meeting logs > Benefits - Marginal, similar to the purpose of Archive though, basically, > somewhere to keep meeting logs in a place where they can be optionally > searched but not by default Definitely in favor of the Archive: idea, and don't have a strong preference either way on the Meeting: idea. --Max From sam at predisposition.com Sun Jul 13 19:55:53 2008 From: sam at predisposition.com (Sam Folk-Williams) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:55:53 -0400 Subject: need help with virt and kernel release notes, and virt quick start Message-ID: Hi, This email is a bit late in coming. I have been maintaining the virt quickstart, and the release notes beats for kernel and virtualization for some time now. Unfortunately, I no longer have the time to keep up with this. I'm starting school full time on top of work and, unfortunately, it's just not able to hold up my commitment to the docs. Is there anyone who would be able/willing to step up and take ownership of these pages? Thanks, Sam From jonstanley at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 00:30:53 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:30:53 -0400 Subject: Bullet-proof method of asking upstream for clarification? Message-ID: :Perhaps this is in the purview of the docs project, maybe not :) I was just packaging some fonts [1,2] where the licensing of upstream was uncertain. In one instance, something licensed upstream as OFL was actually a derived work from a GPL+Exception font. The author of the OFL font had permission from the original author to do this, however, didn't make that clear due to limitations of the distribution website (http://openfontlibrary.org) In the other case (same upstream author), there were images from a museum that he made into a font. It again was unclear whether or not he had gotten permission to do this (he had). He viewed my request for clarification, in both instances, as me (and Fedora) essentially accusing him of being a scumbag thief, which was quite obviously not the intent - rather the intent was to clear up the legal status of the fonts to evaluate their suitability for inclusion in Fedora, a great thing. To add to the misunderstanding, the author in question is a non-native English speaker. So the question is whether we can come up with something of a template for these sorts of things, which can't easily be misconstrued - even by a non-native speaker, that Fedora as a whole could use to avoid further misunderstandings of this type? Unfortunately, I don't have the text of what I sent, since the upstream contact is through a webform and they reply to the e-mail generated from it. -Jon [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=445261 [2] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455153 From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 20:10:33 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:10:33 -0400 Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2008-07-16 IRC log Message-ID: <1216239033.21295.3.camel@victoria> Roll call! * ianweller none * spevack is just an hour early for the fedora emea meeting :) hell of a meeting, so it seems. ;)) * spevack wants to write a document entitled "how to be snarky in 8 easy steps" spevack: You just did it in 1, my friend * jsmith sneaks in * stickster gives 60 seconds for straggler *stragglers OK --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Release Notes Did people get a chance to read my recent brain dump to the list? I'll be in and out nearby if you need me http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00014.html and http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00024.html Let me give you the big picture first Release Notes are *IMPORTANT* We have the best ones in the business. The IRC ops use them *constantly* to help people And they're at risk for F10 if we don't start doing work now. We basically need several things: 1. Update responsibility list for beats 2. Revamp build process Who can take the lead on flushing the beat ownership? That is, finding out if the person listed as a beat owner is still doing the job, and then updating our ownership record so we can find new people? * jsmith is happy to help out with build process jsmith: Noted, awesome! #1 is a simpler but just as important task i don't think i can commit to very many things right now until i figure out my work load at school when it starts in a month :( ianweller: Understood. * stickster realizes our attendance is light, and the people here right now can't do all the work. Part of this is "for the record." for the record, get to work, people who aren't here. /me shakes fist ;) that's one way to motivate :-D Typically, mether ends up coming in and revamping all the release notes at the last minute because beat writers aren't there to do the work. The *concept* is strong. FWN proves it every week. We need to execute the same strategy well, since we started the doggone concept. OK, 'nuff said. jsmith, thanks for the offer of help for the build process, I'm going to take you up on it. jsmith: Along those lines, I need help scoping the project and editing/entering milestones and tickets in Trac that are sensible and will help us track the work. OK... I'll do what I can. Haven't ever done much with trac before, but I'm happy to learn jsmith: It's dead simple. Gotcha jsmith: Let's take this offline and try and do a little bit either after this meeting, or agree on a scheduled time OK, sounds good (at your convenience of course) oi amigos Anything further on Release Notes? quaid: ^^ "Danger Will Robinson" message proceeding. Oh lord. *preceding. OK --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Project triage quaid: I hand the gavel to you sir * quaid up on the buffer now triage ... as in? Two things immediately came to mind for me: (1) Bugs in bugzilla, some languishing. Are the owned by people who can/will take care of them? ah, hmm (2) More generally, project progress. Compare and contrast FDP in 2003 to FDP in 2008. Are we achieving what we should as an official subproject? heh, yeah so, on the first we need a triage effort on just that, yeah * quaid battling sudden ennui * stickster dumps link here for reference: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=Fedora+Documentation&version=&component=&query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=MODIFIED&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&fixed_in_type=allwordssubstr&fixed_in=&qa_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&qa_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&emailtype1=exact&email1=&emailtype2=exact&email2=&votes=&changedin=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0= (at bugzilla.redhat.com) oh criminy sorry :-D Thank you buggbot I spent about three hours or so a couple weekends back clearing out about half the bugs in my queue, which was useful what about making next week's meeting a working meeting to triage bugs? I'm down with that, anyone else available to help?" did i hear you guys need triage?? :) :D jds2001: heh jds2001: We need people. jds2001: Hey wait... YOU'RE people!!! jds2001: and fonts :p jds2001: I was hesitating to ask, but take a look at that buggbot URL above to see the scope of the problem :) quaid: In fairness, both these topics belong on the fedora-docs-list. But I had spammed the list enough this week and didn't want to overdo it. yeah ok, here, I'll email that next week meeting is bug triage oh carp * quaid realized he probably won't be available next week it's unlikely that I can make most of these - I'm stretched pretty thin with $DAYJOB right now jds2001: we were 1/2 kidding anyway, do not be troubled but the triaging concepts will help take as evidence that they had me working 1 week after being operated on :) in terms of what is still viable, etc. * quaid mumbles about "they" quaid: Here's a directly applicable issue -- how long is our timeline for getting new contributors, via the stuff you're doing with Seneca? if you need help (and have documentation about helping with the documentation :) ), I'm sure we'd be happy to I don't think it meshes well with F10 early work :) What is the date by which we would expect to see people coming in to Docs, and how many do you think that will be? ok, like this -- upwards of 25 coming in to Fedora, but we can't guarantee the interest just within Docs; some may want to embed deeper in other areas with Docs as the tie-back that is, these are (as usual) self-assigning entities :) Hm. our tasks list is a strong part of that I set the goal of having tasks updated by early August so we have a chance to get the Seneca wiki updated with links etc. throughout August and Sep is when classes start the goal then is to get ppl involved ASAP, right within the first weeks so by end of Sep, fairly full involvement as a partial component of classwork by Jan, all involvement == classwork (that is the co-op, work experience part of the class) how does that mesh with other timelines? Alpha is August 5. Beta is end of August iirc, and right now F10 final is still pegged for 29 Oct. quaid: But all of those dates I just gave are not meaningful unless we know that someone(s) in that group will come in to help with our particular Docs targets. i.e. help with relnote beat wrangling with IG updates I can reckon that, yes, someone will with wiki gardening I'm just saying it's hard to predict exact numbers :) but this is partially up to us Sure, but even two people would be about twice as many as we've had if our task list is "relnotes, IG, wiki gardening" then guess what people will be doing? heh right on. yeah, so let's be careful about task scope; maybe be more granular in just those three areas? yes, agreed. and put all the other work (Sec Guide, User Guide, Admin Guide) as good for $later The other issue, project status is... probably a timesuck in this meeting. So I'm sorry I put it on there. I'll raise it on the list. hmm, ok looks like I'm not on booth duty on Wed at 1900, I'll just make sure Jack or Greg don't pull me in to some interesting discussion :) * quaid hopes there is good wifi at OSCON :/ hi sorry but my internet connection didn't work is there someone? FAmSCo meeting fugolini: in 24 minutes Docs currently ops sorry np ok, so, bugs ... OK to do a working meeting next week Works for me... I won't be here :-( yup. and in the meantime, recruit heavily for beats brb blog blog blog and so on quaid: Yeah, I have a blog post open for it too. each of us here needs to do recruiting across the board let's double up triple, even. and track that progress on Docs/Beats/ * stickster can't find beat assignment page... later. * stickster motions to move on * jsmith seconds the motion ok I'm about to have to disappear do we have anything else on the agend? or other biz? --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Misc notese --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Misc notes odfpy and python-mwlib packages. These give us the opportunity to turn MediaWiki into DocBook. About as effective as moin's was. Which is to say, not awesome, but definitely passable. * stickster also notes that MW is extensible in that we can mark extra tags. I wonder why we don't get a Simplified DocBook XML tagset available in MW and use it. Then python-mwlib and odfpy could product X/HTML, ODT, and (later) PDF on demand If ricky, ianweller, mmcgrath were listening in, they might be interested in such a thing. I don't know if quaid is still here or not. efo oh crikey.... eof I like the idea... just have no idea on implementation details jsmith: Basically, if it can be done with Python, then our Web geniuses like the folks above, and lmacken, G, and others could build an interface that would pump out the doc from the site. And our doc editing would basically all become editing on MediaWiki. However, that doesn't necessarily work for a couple guides like the Release Notes that need to be available in the build system, have really strict markup, etc. But it would work for the vast majority of other stuff. Anyway, worth a thought. eof * herlo is late herlo: Just read the above, we figured everything out. Peace in the Middle East at last! Aaahh. if I was in MDT it would have worked actually stickster: w00t! about time that happened. I thought we'd never have peace again! * stickster gonna close the meeting unless someone has something further. AOB? 15.. 10.. 5 4 3 2 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 16 22:15:20 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:15:20 -0700 Subject: docs bug triage next meeting Message-ID: <1216246520.8931.58.camel@calliope.phig.org> Next week's meeting (23 July 1900 UTC on #fedora-meeting) is going to be a working meeting. Our focus will be on triage for all the open docs bugs: http://tinyurl.com/59lw78 We can pull process ideas from the Bug Zappers: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/TakingAction cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 23:54:08 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:54:08 -0400 Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2008-07-16 Summary Message-ID: <1216252448.21295.33.camel@victoria> Attendees: ----------- Ian Weller (ianweller) Karsten Wade (quaid) Jared Smith (jsmith) Paul W. Frields (stickster) Summary: --------- * Release Notes ** these are incredibly important ** we need to update beat ownership so we know who's responsible for content ** we need to upgrade our process as proposed on fedora-docs-list * Project triage ** bugs ** Docs team overall progress '03-'08 * Seneca education tie-in ** Total of ~25 people coming to Fedora -- but none earmarked for Docs * Tool notes ** odfpy and python-mwlib ** ACTION: Jared and Paul will collaborate on process tools, using https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes ACTION: Karsten will ensure Release Notes is top item for Docs collaboration with Seneca student writers, followed by IG and wiki gardening ACTION: Karsten will post that next meeting is devoted to bug triage (and hopefully clearning) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Jul 18 02:56:27 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:56:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Outage Notification - 2008-07-22 04:59 UTC (MAJOR) Message-ID: There will be an outage starting at 2008-07-22 04:59 UTC, which will last approximately 10 hours. To convert UTC to your local time, take a look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UTCHowto or run: date -d '2008-07-22 04:59 UTC' Affected Services: Websites Buildsystem Database Unaffected Services: CVS / Source Control DNS Mail Torrent Fedora Hosted Talk Ticket Link: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/705 Reason for Outage: Re-migrating db1 to its new hardware (memory issues have hopefully been resolved). Moving koji database from db2 to a dedicated new server, db3. The db1 outage will cause the wiki and smolt to be offline for no longer then an hour. The koji move will cause the buildsystem (and whatever depends on the build system) to be down for between 8 and 10 hours. We haven't padded the outage so if something goes wrong, we'll have to abort and re-schedule it for another time. Likely the next night so be prepared. Also please make sure any builds you complete any builds prior to the time of the outage. Contact Information: Please join #fedora-admin in irc.freenode.net or respond to this email to track the status of this outage. From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:22:24 2008 From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:22:24 -0400 Subject: need help with virt and kernel release notes, and virt quick start In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1216387344.4813.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain> On Sun, 2008-07-13 at 15:55 -0400, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > Hi, > > This email is a bit late in coming. I have been maintaining the virt > quickstart, and the release notes beats for kernel and virtualization > for some time now. Unfortunately, I no longer have the time to keep up > with this. I'm starting school full time on top of work and, > unfortunately, it's just not able to hold up my commitment to the > docs. > > Is there anyone who would be able/willing to step up and take > ownership of these pages? > > Thanks, > Sam > I was on vacation and just got around to reading email. I would like to volunteer to take the beat(s). If someone else has already volunteered, just ignore me. :) -Jason -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dev at nigelj.com Fri Jul 18 13:22:14 2008 From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:22:14 +1200 Subject: Long Needed Introduction Message-ID: <48809906.9000406@nigelj.com> I just realised that I've never formally introduced myself. So here goes, I'm Nigel Jones, a proud New Zealander that has been meaning to do a little bit of documentation work for AGES. I've recently done 6 months teaching IT to domestic and international students, and really documentation is the best way to help students. I'm quite technically competent (I passed RHCT with 100%) so I'm definitely eyeing up getting the Administration guide out the door. Recently I'm known for my work on the wiki and helping people with Mediawiki syntax (who've thunk it?). Anything else, just ask (feel free to prove to Murray that I'm not famous)... - Nigel From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:30:08 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:30:08 +0000 Subject: need help with virt and kernel release notes, and virt quick start In-Reply-To: <1216387344.4813.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain> References: <1216387344.4813.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain> Message-ID: <1216387808.4186.61.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-07-18 at 09:22 -0400, Jason wrote: > On Sun, 2008-07-13 at 15:55 -0400, Sam Folk-Williams wrote: > > Hi, > > > > This email is a bit late in coming. I have been maintaining the virt > > quickstart, and the release notes beats for kernel and virtualization > > for some time now. Unfortunately, I no longer have the time to keep up > > with this. I'm starting school full time on top of work and, > > unfortunately, it's just not able to hold up my commitment to the > > docs. > > > > Is there anyone who would be able/willing to step up and take > > ownership of these pages? > > > > Thanks, > > Sam > > > > I was on vacation and just got around to reading email. I would like to > volunteer to take the beat(s). If someone else has already volunteered, > just ignore me. :) Jason, this is great, and timely too. Just sign up for the beat on the page -- we'll be able to tell from the history the change was recent. If you know other people who might want to take a release notes beat, please send them our way. (They really are small and easy to manage, and maybe only take a few hours of work spread over several months.) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 19:53:25 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:53:25 +0000 Subject: Help Page Needs some... Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1216410805.4186.123.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-07-18 at 14:04 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help is linked to by the Help on the left > side of the wiki. Its a pretty prominent link, think anyone could spruce > it up? Especially targeting new people that might click on it looking for > things like how to sign up for an account, etc. > > Perhaps multiple sections, one for help with the Fedora Project and the > other section with links to various help on the wiki like wiki markup, > etc. Good call. I'm actually responsible for that page content from well over a year ago. The "Help" page only addressed one side of the question, so I changed it (probably in a hurried fashion) to at least point to two major areas. This could use some work, for sure. Be aware that there are about a half-dozen pages that purport to have "introductory" or "help" information. This points to the need for some further wiki gardening, thus my cc'ing the Docs team. :-) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 01:43:48 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:43:48 -0400 Subject: Release notes update Message-ID: <1216518228.22373.2.camel@victoria> Tonight I pushed an updated fedora-release-notes-9.0.2-1 package into bodhi. It should be in the updates-testing repository soon, and in the stable updates channel shortly thereafter. Testers (and karma votes in bodhi) appreciated! -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From murray.mcallister at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 02:47:14 2008 From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:47:14 +1000 Subject: Release notes update In-Reply-To: <1216518228.22373.2.camel@victoria> References: <1216518228.22373.2.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <95f1114b0807191947q766241dane741db3d3cfb301f@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Tonight I pushed an updated fedora-release-notes-9.0.2-1 package into > bodhi. It should be in the updates-testing repository soon, and in the > stable updates channel shortly thereafter. Testers (and karma votes in > bodhi) appreciated! Thanks Paul! I was meaning to ask when the updated version was going in... Cheers, Murray. --------------------------------------------------------------------- pub 1024D/81B3FDEB 2007-09-19 [expires: 2008-09-18] Key fingerprint = 4ED9 9907 5BF0 4132 2B46 20D1 C0C6 362D 81B3 FDEB Murray McAllister (Fedora Docs Project / mdious) sub 2048g/B04CFA0C 2007-09-19 [expires: 2008-09-18] From stickster at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 17:25:07 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:25:07 -0400 Subject: Release notes update In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0807191947q766241dane741db3d3cfb301f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1216518228.22373.2.camel@victoria> <95f1114b0807191947q766241dane741db3d3cfb301f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1216574707.11410.10.camel@victoria> On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 12:47 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote: > On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Tonight I pushed an updated fedora-release-notes-9.0.2-1 package into > > bodhi. It should be in the updates-testing repository soon, and in the > > stable updates channel shortly thereafter. Testers (and karma votes in > > bodhi) appreciated! > > Thanks Paul! I was meaning to ask when the updated version was going in... Yeah, sorry it took me so long. :-\ Another indicator that we have got to find an easier toolchain for this work. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From murray.mcallister at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 21:38:14 2008 From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:38:14 +1000 Subject: Long Needed Introduction In-Reply-To: <48809906.9000406@nigelj.com> References: <48809906.9000406@nigelj.com> Message-ID: <95f1114b0807201438w4f175942ud4de6e9fac0c132@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Nigel Jones wrote: > I just realised that I've never formally introduced myself. > > So here goes, I'm Nigel Jones, a proud New Zealander that has been meaning > to do a little bit of documentation work for AGES. I've recently done 6 > months teaching IT to domestic and international students, and really > documentation is the best way to help students. > > I'm quite technically competent (I passed RHCT with 100%) so I'm definitely > eyeing up getting the Administration guide out the door. RHCT is just the start regarding your long list of certifications... > Recently I'm known for my work on the wiki and helping people with Mediawiki > syntax (who've thunk it?). > > Anything else, just ask (feel free to prove to Murray that I'm not > famous)... Thank you for putting up with my Mediawiki questions. I would be lost without you. Cheers, Murray. --------------------------------------------------------------------- pub 1024D/81B3FDEB 2007-09-19 [expires: 2008-09-18] Key fingerprint = 4ED9 9907 5BF0 4132 2B46 20D1 C0C6 362D 81B3 FDEB Murray McAllister (Fedora Docs Project / mdious) sub 2048g/B04CFA0C 2007-09-19 [expires: 2008-09-18] From stickster at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 00:07:11 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:07:11 -0400 Subject: install-guide In-Reply-To: <4883CE60.8030208@redhat.com> References: <4818cd80807082047w17bd7d82o381de64f12448932@mail.gmail.com> <4818cd80807180552h76af5dar3f3eb68271bbe683@mail.gmail.com> <1216386865.4186.48.camel@victoria> <4818cd80807180637t77ad0461pa4b6be65033d1d6d@mail.gmail.com> <4818cd80807180734q49c3c9dcj74d8ed7d53e5096b@mail.gmail.com> <4883CE60.8030208@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1216598831.4296.14.camel@victoria> On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 09:46 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote: > Domingo Becker wrote: > > 2008/7/18 Domingo Becker : > >> I access it through transifex since a long time ago. > >> I'll try to do it. > > > > It seems my keys are not working. > > I changed laptop three times since my last access through cvs. > > FAS also changed since then. > > I have no time now. I'll give it a look later. > > Hi > After cvs up, I could not see any F-9 directory up so I tried the > following on devel/ directory. > > [noriko at noriko install-guide]$ ls > CVS F-7 F-8 FC-5 FC-6 devel > > [noriko at noriko devel]$ make validate-xml-es > *It seems no error message so far, and created xml files under es/ > directory :) > > [noriko at noriko devel]$ make html-es > *It seems successfully built html in es (even I can't read). > > [noriko at noriko devel]$ msgfmt -cvo /dev/null po/es.po > 1146 translated messages, 17 fuzzy translations. > *There are some fuzzies for devel/ directory. Thanks for looking into that Noriko -- A few things need to happen to this doc: * Branch for F-9 so people can work on the F-10 version * Publish F-9 Installation Guide content for some other $LANG I'm cc'ing the Docs list so someone can look into this. I can certainly handle the branching, but we're going to need some more manpower working on publishing and upkeep! -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From daobrien at redhat.com Tue Jul 22 02:07:45 2008 From: daobrien at redhat.com (David O'Brien) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:07:45 +1000 Subject: Reviewing the use of admonitions Message-ID: <488540F1.2020100@redhat.com> The use of admonitions - their scope and definition - was raised as part of a style bug (Bugzilla 456026) and has developed a life of its own. Keeping Fedora and Red Hat doc policies in sync is generally considered A Good Thing, so I'm posting (almost) the complete list of comments here for further discussion: Comment #1 From David O'Brien (daobrien at redhat.com ) on 2008-07-20 20:43 EST [reply ] Private Perhaps now would be a good time to reduce the number of admonitions (3 is plenty). Comment #2 From Jeff Fearn (jfearn at redhat.com ) on 2008-07-20 23:29 EST [reply ] Private I agree that 5 is over kill, however since we have a _lot_ of existing content that uses all 5, it would be a major effort to remove the two we decide to drop. Since this effort won't be undertaken it will mean we will ship books that use admonitions not discussed in the Documentation Conventions. IMHO I think that three should be chose and from hereon the other 2 would not be used and would, over time, be removed from existing docs. But until that process is complete all 5 should remain documented in the conventions. Comment #3 From David O'Brien (daobrien at redhat.com ) on 2008-07-21 00:04 EST [reply ] Private s/[whatever]/[whatever]/g ? :-) Yes, agreed, a bit of work involved in the update. Let's do Step 1 and decide on the 2 to drop and the date for their cessation of use. How about: - integrate Warning and Caution - integrate Note and Tip - decide if we still need Important Probably a bit of redefinition will be required, and possibly a new bugzilla, as I seem to have hijacked this one. Comment #4 From Karsten Wade (kwade at redhat.com ) on 2008-07-21 03:14 EST [reply ] Private Not to keep the hijacking up :), but here is something to add to your new bug report regarding redefining admonitions. There *are* differences between a note and a tip. There is a difference between offering warning and shouting caution. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Editing#Admonition_examples Take it or leave it, but it is going to make it more difficult to integrate documentation from/to Fedora if the policies are not in sync. Thus, you might want to take the discussion to fedora-docs-list. You might find many receptive, since the GNOME style guide is otherwise respected, and they agree with your combination: http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/2.22/infodesign-18.html.en Comment #5 From Jeff Fearn (jfearn at redhat.com ) on 2008-07-21 20:36 EST [reply ] Private I agree with Karsten that it would be a damn fine idea for Red Hat and Fedora docs to be in sync on this. David could you either open a new bug or start a thread on the Fedora Docs list about this. Now let this bug continue on about clarifying the styles :) Cheers, Jeff. -- David O'Brien IPA Content Author Red Hat Asia Pacific "We couldn't care less about comfort. We make you feel good." Federico Minoli CEO Ducati Motor S.p.A. From jfearn at redhat.com Tue Jul 22 03:47:59 2008 From: jfearn at redhat.com (Jeff Fearn) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:47:59 +1000 Subject: Would you like publican to do syntax highlighting? Message-ID: <4885586F.7030602@redhat.com> Then get on to this bug and help me get the syntax highlighting package in to Fedora! https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455358 I'll try and get a new version of publican built this Friday, I'll post the review URL so we can get it pushed live asap. Cheers, Jeff. From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 11:29:50 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:29:50 -0400 Subject: Reviewing the use of admonitions In-Reply-To: <488540F1.2020100@redhat.com> References: <488540F1.2020100@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1216726190.3601.28.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 12:07 +1000, David O'Brien wrote: > The use of admonitions - their scope and definition - was raised as part > of a style bug (Bugzilla 456026) and has developed a life of its own. > Keeping Fedora and Red Hat doc policies in sync is generally considered > A Good Thing, so I'm posting (almost) the complete list of comments here > for further discussion: [...snip...] > Comment #4 From > Karsten Wade (kwade at redhat.com ) on 2008-07-21 > 03:14 EST [reply > ] Private > > Not to keep the hijacking up :), but here is something to add to your new bug > report regarding redefining admonitions. > > There *are* differences between a note and a tip. There is a difference between > offering warning and shouting caution. > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Editing#Admonition_examples > > Take it or leave it, but it is going to make it more difficult to integrate > documentation from/to Fedora if the policies are not in sync. Thus, you might > want to take the discussion to fedora-docs-list. You might find many receptive, > since the GNOME style guide is otherwise respected, and they agree with your > combination: > > http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/2.22/infodesign-18.html.en I think the GNOME methodology makes the most sense. A tip offers helpful but possibly unsolicited advice. The info and note admonitions are far closer in meaning, and could easily be combined. Same goes for caution and warning; the warning is simply a caution on steroids, so to speak. FWIW, I vote we go the GDP way. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 11:31:28 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:31:28 -0400 Subject: [publican-list] Would you like publican to do syntax highlighting? In-Reply-To: <4885586F.7030602@redhat.com> References: <4885586F.7030602@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1216726288.3601.30.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 13:47 +1000, Jeff Fearn wrote: > Then get on to this bug and help me get the syntax highlighting package in to Fedora! > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455358 > > I'll try and get a new version of publican built this Friday, I'll post the review > URL so we can get it pushed live asap. For a proper review this probably needs attention from someone who's Java skilled, right? Maybe you should post this heads-up to fedora-devel-list and fedora-java-list. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org Tue Jul 22 21:39:33 2008 From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:39:33 -0400 Subject: Quick Intro and RelNotes: Filesystems Beat Message-ID: Hi all: Quick note to introduce myself and volunteer for the RelNotes Filesystems Beat I am a sysadmin for a consulting company based in South Carolina, where about 25% of my job deals with creating documentation. I've been a Fedora Ambassador for several years and contributed a few other things. I currently maintain the SecAdvisories Beat for FWN. As for writing I have managed to fool a few magazine editors into letting me write a few articles over the years. In a OSS project I was involved in around 4 years ago I dealt with DocBook, but I am sure my skills are pretty rusty from lack of use, but hopefully I can ramp back up pretty quickly. If no one else has stepped forward to handle the Filesystems Beat I'll do so. Thanks, David Nalley From jnalley at jnalley.com Tue Jul 22 21:49:30 2008 From: jnalley at jnalley.com (Jonathan Nalley) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:49:30 -0400 Subject: Self-Introduction: Jonathan Nalley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I'm Jonathan Nalley and I'm in the Greenville area of South Carolina, USA I'm a Systems Engineer in the Systems Architecture department at NuVox--a CLEC and other IT-ish services provider Initially, i'm interested in being a release notes beat writer, specifically for the Database servers (if no one else has volunteered for it) and we'll see where it goes from there. I'm also interested in growing my own writing skills while becoming involved in the community of a distro i've used and enjoy using. I've been in the IT industry for about 10 years now and have been involved in an open source project in the past. I enjoy technical writing and do so now as a component of my paid job. From cmpahar at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 22:07:38 2008 From: cmpahar at gmail.com (Christos Bacharakis) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 01:07:38 +0300 Subject: Self-Introduction: Jonathan Nalley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 12:49 AM, Jonathan Nalley wrote: > Hi, I'm Jonathan Nalley and I'm in the Greenville area of South Carolina, > USA > I'm a Systems Engineer in the Systems Architecture department at > NuVox--a CLEC and other IT-ish services provider > > Initially, i'm interested in being a release notes beat writer, > specifically for the > Database servers (if no one else has volunteered for it) and we'll see > where it > goes from there. I'm also interested in growing my own writing skills > while becoming involved in the community of a distro i've used and > enjoy using. > > I've been in the IT industry for about 10 years now and have been > involved in an open source project in the past. I enjoy technical > writing and do so now as a component of my paid job. > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > Hi Jonathan! Welcome abroad! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 20:16:16 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:16:16 +0000 Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2008-07-23 IRC log Message-ID: <1216844176.11972.166.camel@victoria> Roll call! here! Sparks: Well heck, it could be just you and me for a little bit. quaid will be back here by about UTC 1915. Sparks: I'll start off with something not on the agenda --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - (non-agenda) Features Sparks: IIRC, I got you together with poelcat for some work on Feature pages Have you looked at the revamping that we did to the policy stuff? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Policy I have not. I've been on travel last week and this week and I don't foresee coming up for air until later this weekend. Oh wow! Yet you're here anyway -- thanks and sorry I forgot it was two weeks! * ianweller_afk is floating around the channel and might be here or not Yeah... Been to DC and to Florida * stickster ducks the floating head of ianweller_afk wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee darn Sparks: Well, there's a further refinement to the policy that John will be pushing through FESCo this week It changes the way the queue works Interesting. Hopefully the result means a less confusing process for everyone * Sparks needs to read up on this Sparks: Let me see if I can find you a URL Sparks: Hm, just hit me up after this, I'll look later Sparks: Anyway, I'm assuming you're still planning on helping John with some of this work ok I am cool! that's all, just a FYI --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - back on agenda! --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - jds2001 request for boilerplate http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00040.html This is a bit silly for me to do this agenda if Sparks is the only one here. Probably It's like me being in a room with one other person, yelling "Is there *anyone* here who will take this action item?" "*ANYONE?*" * Sparks coughs and looks down as if to find something in his bag haha hmm, productive meeting ;) ian_maybeafk: Certainly it's fast. ian_maybeafk: I don't get it. ian_maybeafk: We have the easiest process ever now for getting involved. Everyone complained about DocBook XML. We moved to more wiki. They complained getting a wiki account was too hard. We took that barrier away. hmmph maybe it's the mediawiki syntax i was going to create a mediawiki syntax cheat-shirt where all the syntax info is upside down (so you can read it) heh maybe a short training video/screencast would help ian_maybeafk: AHA! hi ian_maybeafk: Now you're talking. \o/ ian_maybeafk: I just happen to be well equipped to make such a screencast. well well well ian_maybeafk: Sounds like I've got something to work on later today of course, we still haven't decided on a wiki organization schema which might be an important part of learning docs writing on the wiki *pffft i'm assuming at this point there's no way we're ever going to completely flatten the wiki and go to complete categorization. it seems almost impossible As long as we have a "move" function, I'm more concerned with getting people to actually participate in the wiki gardening. (which topic is coming up later.) oh excellent :) So jds2001 asked us for a boilerplate contact letter for FOSS projects -- one written by someone who was entirely focused on positive outreach, so that the person using the boilerplate doesn't have to edit themselves 10 times over to avoid offending the recipient. s/themselves/himself/ I'll draft something and make it available for comment and refiling Release notes status! --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr at fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings - Release Notes status Has anyone visited the new hosted project site? https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes Hmm, not compelling enough? We now have the release notes in that repo building successfully with publican. * ian_maybeafk feels bad leaving stickster in a meeting with himself :< There are milestones set up in the Trac repo, but I need help -- mainly asking people to file "tasks" that they see aren't done. ian_maybeafk: I think Sparks is still here Maybe he's still looking for something in his bag. :-) hehe quaid is supposed to be back shortly. Then we can, you know, talk to each other. hehe * ian_maybeafk goes to check out the magic in the release-notes git repo ian_maybeafk: I wrote some intro pages for how to use it -- keeping in mind that Docs people may not understand git right-o ian_maybeafk: So it's a cookbook approach. If something there looks really wrong to you, I can get you access so you can fix the wording/commands https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/wiki/HowToHelp * Sparks is here... Trying to dodge the weather and reply to thousands of email that are still pending. hee hee Anyway, work is progressing steadily. And with that, we come to quaid's item on wiki gardening status. I've been doing some of this as I go along -- the Feature process was one such victim. * ian_maybeafk notes his friend is here, so who knows whether i'll be here or not I received an email inside Red Hat from a developer who was having real problems navigating through the tangled morass of PackageMaintainers in the wiki So it would be good to visit those. sorry! network problems but we're on now I think the policy pages we want to stay away from. hi friends Hi quaid It's just you, me, partly Sparks and partly ian_maybeafk is Package* open enough ACLs? or do we get added ok, smooth quaid: It's Packaging* I think which is locked down a bit That's where the policy sits, and that's all pretty well written and complete AFAICT. It's the pages that point in there which are a bit of a mess. This page? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers It's confusing. so just that page And it may not be the only one for developers of its kind crap, clauses out of sequence. And it may not be the only one of its kind for developers * stickster notes that page contains transcludes/templates for each section * quaid opens page now that greg is done shoulder surfing How can we kick wiki gardening in the ass? Get people to pitch in? * stickster thinks we need an incentive. hmm, incentives easier? greg had an idea earlier today ... No, I mean like: prizes for wiki edits. use the Special: page that tracks "hasn't been touched in N time" and put a different, shaded/colored background and maybe a watermark -- a pink page -- "if you see a pink page and think it shouldn't be active, then update it, or change it to red so that it needs fixing." something visuual and encourage people all over the place, help by hitting up these pages I think "encourage people all over the place" has been shown at this point to be ineffective. What if we were to offer a real bounty of some sort for this work? How could we create and track such a thing, and reduce the chances of gaming the system through things like whitespace fiddling? well start with the usuals and grow? that is make sure we highlight people who are kicking ass with auto tooling maybe a banner that rotates? then ... 1. recognition 2. ??? 3. profit! Hm Well, I know it should be quite easy to grab the info. right, there is something already but I forget lmacken hack of somekined? I forget spevack just gave me the tipoff git://fedorapeople.org/~lmacken/fedora-weekly-metrics oh yeah, I've been meaning to add more of those that repo only has a couple of basic wiki metrics but eventually i'd like to see it have bugzilla, cvs, bodhi, koji, etc ah, cool lmacken: i've done nothing to help you so far, either. my apologies spevack: it's cool... I've been engulfed in bodhi stuff recently. lmacken: Don't talk to him. He needs to study. :-D haha * spevack is "studying" for the rhce * lmacken also started a class at boston college this week too * stickster says, having just pm'd spevack several times in the last hour lmacken: So we were talking about... * spevack cannot bring himself to care about several topics that are likely to be on the test tying this into an incentive somehow, maybe a banner that publicizes people's ass-kicking on the wiki itself or elsewhere current top 5: neat. I still would like to see us do that gentoo/suse/etc do in their Weekly news -- having a stats section at the bottom susmit pcalarco mspevack pfrields nim IN YOUR FACE, stickster Bite me spevack s/that/what/ haha I'm gonna SO out-wiki you next week. * spevack will make every dollar added to the fedora budget pages a separate commit so, that's $300 for $FOO. +1 (commit) +1 (commit) * stickster sends lmacken to ban spevack from stats oops, s/sends/sends patch to/ see, it's this kind of friendly coopetition that we are trying to create ;) That was two commits to the IRC log, can I count that? * spevack places a watch on all stickster's pages, and removes one of the spaces between each sentence he types every time he commits D'OH!!! :) stickster: you called down the thunder! now you've got it! Two leaders walk in, only one come out. * spevack recalls the time him and gdk did the giant sumo wrestling suit thing lmacken: What's the bot account message mean? i think i lost. but i think he cheated. * spevack goes back to studying... sigh stickster: normal user accounts can only get at most 500 results from a given query... we need to run that script using a 'bot' account to get more so those stats are not exactly accurate ;) right, it capped at 500. quaid: So, what's the next action on this? * quaid done saying howdy to bryan che stickster: did i totally just troll an in-progress meeting? spevack: You did, well done sir. for like 5 minutes? we need a technology owner * spevack runs in shame who can make sure we are gathering and publishing lmacken: since you are doing this for other stuff lmacken: do you want to prototype a full feed of stats like this from Docs? starting with the wiki pull and push to ... FWN, some page somewhere (fp.org top page?), ... where else? stickster: serious question for you: weekly post to fedorastats.wordpress.com to appear on the planet? i was planning on including metrics as a beat in Fedor aWeekly News but I thought it would be best to wait until we had more than jus twiki edits quaid: sure, I plan on helping to elaborate the metrics generation stuff. which is why i haven't done it yet. should i continue to hold off, or just do it? yeah, I think we should wait to have more stats from a few more sources hmm spevack: The only thing that makes me reticent is the fact that we keep showing up in the top 10! spevack: OTOH, we can issue a challenge Beat the FPLs and get a free ____ Uh Maybe I should fill in that blank before someone else does. :) i tend to agree with lmacken, which is why I've waited. PONY Porsche spevack: All right, but the idea is solid we totally need to buy a fedora contributor a pony lmacken: Agreed on the stats This is sort of a side note to the larger question. Aside from this effort... quaid: What else can we do? quaid: Is there a high-level plan for the wiki gardening? High enough that people know where to start digging now? But low enough that someone can grok it? I find https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WikiGardening But after the first few subsections, it's not task-oriented enough from the new contributor standpoint. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WikiGardening/Tasks That's better! But how to know how to categorize? We are almost out of time here. quaid: Can you take an item to make the Gardening pages clearer from the new-guy perspective? Simple questions, simple answers I'm working on a few other Docs things at present :-) OK, we need to end this meeting I think stickster: no prob.. go on it seems to be funny without the pony thing AndreasR: do you want a pony? haha And with that... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 20:34:11 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:34:11 +0000 Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2008-07-23 Summary Message-ID: <1216845251.11972.180.camel@victoria> Attendees: ----------- Eric Christensen (sparks) Ian Weller (ianweller, et al.) Paul W. Frields (stickster) Karsten Wade (quaid) Summary: --------- * Eric will be working with the feature wrangler again upon return to regular life * Jon Stanley's request for a boilerplate ACTION: *** PAUL - make a draft, submit to list * Release Notes update - work continues. Successfully building with publican at this time. More tooling needed for other modules, and for conversion from wiki -> DocBook XML. ** Mike McGrath, Ian Weller, and Infrastructure team have been informed of new python-mwlib, which might do the trick ** poorly-constructed SRPM at: http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/packages/SRPMS * Wiki gardening ** Need incentives, possibly metrics tied to web banner to show off people's hard work ** Something tangible? Schwag prize? ** Luke Macken working on fedora-weekly-metrics module: http://fedorapeople.org/gitweb?p=lmacken/public_git/fedora-weekly-metrics ACTION: *** KARSTEN - Garden the WikiGardening page so that new people can understand it. Revisit and revamp task list as needed. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From eric at christensenplace.us Wed Jul 23 22:18:09 2008 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:18:09 -0400 Subject: Reviewing the use of admonitions In-Reply-To: <1216726190.3601.28.camel@victoria> References: <488540F1.2020100@redhat.com> <1216726190.3601.28.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <4887AE21.9010908@christensenplace.us> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I agree with the info and note being close. I do think that the caution and warning could be defined differently. IF I were defining them I say that CAUTION meant that you can do this but shouldn't unless you have experience and WARNING means don't do this because you are getting ready to fry your system. I wouldn't want to dilute the WARNING down as I want users to really pay attention to what is being said there and not just pass it by only to delete everything on their system inadvertently. Just my 2 cents worth. Eric Paul W. Frields wrote: | On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 12:07 +1000, David O'Brien wrote: |> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/2.22/infodesign-18.html.en | | I think the GNOME methodology makes the most sense. A tip offers | helpful but possibly unsolicited advice. The info and note admonitions | are far closer in meaning, and could easily be combined. Same goes for | caution and warning; the warning is simply a caution on steroids, so to | speak. | | FWIW, I vote we go the GDP way. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiHrh8ACgkQL5V8yddJCO1llQCeJOuiCdtsMVTqblUXn65pFT4y 2PUAnAxlLtFz6DOFGVZ51iknHRamTfbd =fF3q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 22:34:36 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:34:36 -0400 Subject: Reviewing the use of admonitions In-Reply-To: <4887AE21.9010908@christensenplace.us> References: <488540F1.2020100@redhat.com> <1216726190.3601.28.camel@victoria> <4887AE21.9010908@christensenplace.us> Message-ID: <1216852476.28820.2.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 18:18 -0400, Eric Christensen wrote: > I agree with the info and note being close. I do think that the caution > and warning could be defined differently. IF I were defining them I say > that CAUTION meant that you can do this but shouldn't unless you have > experience and WARNING means don't do this because you are getting ready > to fry your system. I wouldn't want to dilute the WARNING down as I > want users to really pay attention to what is being said there and not > just pass it by only to delete everything on their system inadvertently. > > Just my 2 cents worth. To which I would say, no one is worse off if the CAUTION becomes a WARNING, as opposed to the opposite. People should, given your logic -- with which I agree -- then be a little or a lot more careful than otherwise, making the admonition that much more effective. I wouldn't want to dilute the WARNING; given a choice I'd prefer it. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 22:36:27 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:36:27 -0400 Subject: Reviewing the use of admonitions In-Reply-To: <1216852476.28820.2.camel@victoria> References: <488540F1.2020100@redhat.com> <1216726190.3601.28.camel@victoria> <4887AE21.9010908@christensenplace.us> <1216852476.28820.2.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1216852587.28820.4.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 18:34 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 18:18 -0400, Eric Christensen wrote: > > I agree with the info and note being close. I do think that the caution > > and warning could be defined differently. IF I were defining them I say > > that CAUTION meant that you can do this but shouldn't unless you have > > experience and WARNING means don't do this because you are getting ready > > to fry your system. I wouldn't want to dilute the WARNING down as I > > want users to really pay attention to what is being said there and not > > just pass it by only to delete everything on their system inadvertently. > > > > Just my 2 cents worth. > > To which I would say, no one is worse off if the CAUTION becomes a > WARNING, as opposed to the opposite. People should, given your logic -- > with which I agree -- then be a little or a lot more careful than > otherwise, making the admonition that much more effective. I wouldn't > want to dilute the WARNING; given a choice I'd prefer it. I apologize, this is in a little conflict with the GDP guidelines. But you should note that they have redefined CAUTION to mean what WARNING would have meant before, and exactly what you describe -- making this discussion purely semantics. :-) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From eric at christensenplace.us Wed Jul 23 23:02:34 2008 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:02:34 -0400 Subject: Reviewing the use of admonitions In-Reply-To: <1216852587.28820.4.camel@victoria> References: <488540F1.2020100@redhat.com> <1216726190.3601.28.camel@victoria> <4887AE21.9010908@christensenplace.us> <1216852476.28820.2.camel@victoria> <1216852587.28820.4.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <4887B88A.8050306@christensenplace.us> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Okay, so lets make it happen! Eric Paul W. Frields wrote: | On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 18:34 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: |> On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 18:18 -0400, Eric Christensen wrote: |>> I agree with the info and note being close. I do think that the caution |>> and warning could be defined differently. IF I were defining them I say |>> that CAUTION meant that you can do this but shouldn't unless you have |>> experience and WARNING means don't do this because you are getting ready |>> to fry your system. I wouldn't want to dilute the WARNING down as I |>> want users to really pay attention to what is being said there and not |>> just pass it by only to delete everything on their system inadvertently. |>> |>> Just my 2 cents worth. |> To which I would say, no one is worse off if the CAUTION becomes a |> WARNING, as opposed to the opposite. People should, given your logic -- |> with which I agree -- then be a little or a lot more careful than |> otherwise, making the admonition that much more effective. I wouldn't |> want to dilute the WARNING; given a choice I'd prefer it. | | I apologize, this is in a little conflict with the GDP guidelines. But | you should note that they have redefined CAUTION to mean what WARNING | would have meant before, and exactly what you describe -- making this | discussion purely semantics. :-) | | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiHuIgACgkQL5V8yddJCO1GgACfeZ+YIT9gSqCris8j/NsEHCq8 JkkAn0dHD8NAPpUCqVf22UG4lu/qJjW4 =AOHU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 23:35:46 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:35:46 -0400 Subject: Reviewing the use of admonitions In-Reply-To: <4887B88A.8050306@christensenplace.us> References: <488540F1.2020100@redhat.com> <1216726190.3601.28.camel@victoria> <4887AE21.9010908@christensenplace.us> <1216852476.28820.2.camel@victoria> <1216852587.28820.4.camel@victoria> <4887B88A.8050306@christensenplace.us> Message-ID: <1216856146.28820.13.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 19:02 -0400, Eric Christensen wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Okay, so lets make it happen! Would you like to make the change to the Documentation Guide, advocating the use of only tip, note, and caution with the definitions found at GNOME? http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/2.22/infodesign-18.html.en I can review the CVS commits you make before we republish. Paul http://www.idallen.com/topposting.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 13:20:40 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:20:40 -0400 Subject: Bullet-proof method of asking upstream for clarification? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1216905641.22593.0.camel@victoria> On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 20:30 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > :Perhaps this is in the purview of the docs project, maybe not :) > > I was just packaging some fonts [1,2] where the licensing of upstream > was uncertain. In one instance, something licensed upstream as OFL was > actually a derived work from a GPL+Exception font. The author of the > OFL font had permission from the original author to do this, however, > didn't make that clear due to limitations of the distribution website > (http://openfontlibrary.org) > > In the other case (same upstream author), there were images from a > museum that he made into a font. It again was unclear whether or not > he had gotten permission to do this (he had). > > He viewed my request for clarification, in both instances, as me (and > Fedora) essentially accusing him of being a scumbag thief, which was > quite obviously not the intent - rather the intent was to clear up the > legal status of the fonts to evaluate their suitability for inclusion > in Fedora, a great thing. To add to the misunderstanding, the author > in question is a non-native English speaker. > > So the question is whether we can come up with something of a template > for these sorts of things, which can't easily be misconstrued - even > by a non-native speaker, that Fedora as a whole could use to avoid > further misunderstandings of this type? Unfortunately, I don't have > the text of what I sent, since the upstream contact is through a > webform and they reply to the e-mail generated from it. > > -Jon > > [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=445261 > [2] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455153 Jon, I posted a draft at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/DraftUpstreamRequestEmail It would be nice if some non-English speakers on this list would look at it. Then post to the list here to tell me if any of the text rubs you the wrong way! :-) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net Fri Jul 25 05:21:56 2008 From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:21:56 +0900 Subject: Bullet-proof method of asking upstream for clarification? In-Reply-To: <1216905641.22593.0.camel@victoria> References: <1216905641.22593.0.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1216963317.3462.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 09:20 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > It would be nice if some non-English speakers on this list would look at > it. Then post to the list here to tell me if any of the text rubs you > the wrong way! :-) Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a non-English speaker, but it might be good to include a link to Fedora's licensing policy, so that if nothing else, this can be an educational experience for the person receiving an email such as this. -Jared From jfearn at redhat.com Fri Jul 25 07:12:53 2008 From: jfearn at redhat.com (Jeff Fearn) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:12:53 +1000 Subject: new publican in rawhide Message-ID: <48897CF5.1000603@redhat.com> Hi everybody! I pushed the latest version of publican and publican-fedora in to rawhide today. It's not widely tested so I didn't push them in to F8/9 yet. Major changes are: single fop config file, it gets made when the rpm is built. major HTML & PDF overhaul many big fixes Thanks to Brian Forte and Andy Fitzsimon for the help on layout. Thanks to Joshua Wulf and Brian Forte for the help on updating the Users Guide. Thanks for everyone who opened bugs, even if I haven't gotten around to fixing them yet :D Here is the change log for this version: - Fix PO file name missing from translation status report - Modify xmlClean to output dummy content for empty files (beta) - Default SHOW_UNKNOWN tags off - Make unset entity warnings more obvious - Make docs use DESKTOP styles - Fix missing list image in html-single articles - Commented out debug output in chunking xsl - QANDA set html and css fix BZ #442674 - Fix kde requires. BZ #443024 - Add default FOP xconf file. - Added help_internals target. - Added check for banned tags. - Added --lang to create_book BZ #444851 - Added package tag BZ #444908 - Added ability to ship $lang/files directories with html/xml payloads BZ #444935 - Hardcoded PDF footnote colour to black BZ #446011 - Set segmentedlist.as.table to 1. BZ #445628 - Force monospace on command - Switched to FOP 0.95Beta - Fixed crash bug on files names with parentheses BZ #447659 - Fix loose directory name matching when exluding directiories. - Added GENERATE_SECTION_TOC_LEVEL to allow section level TOC control. BZ #449720 - Banned inlinegraphic. BZ #448331 - Added Article and Set Templates - Banned xreflabel and endterm. BZ #452051 - Generate FOP config file and font-metricfiles as build. BZ #451913 - Changed HTML and PDF common brand to more pleasing colors. BZ #442675 - Fixed incorrect PDF colours on Fedora and Common brands. BZ #442988 - Fixed PDF TOC missing Chapter numbers on Sections. BZ #452802 - Fixed spaces being removed between inline tags. BZ #453067 - Changed TOC layout (bold chapters + spacing). BZ #453885 - Changed title spacing, unbolded figure/table titles. - Fix over size images breaking PDF and HTML layouts - Add missing make Requires. BZ #454376 - Added call to aspell to spell check. - Fixed incorrect other credit title in PDF. BZ #454394 - Turned on Hyphenation to split verbatim lines. - Added code highlighting to CSS and PDF - Remove trailing '.' from formal para title. BZ #455826 - Restructure CSS for easier maintenance of brands - Add documentation on publican design philosophy. BZ #456170 - Italicised package tag. BZ #442668 - Updated documentation descriptions of Book_Info.xml tags. BZ #456489 BZ #456488 Cheers, Jeff. -- Jeff Fearn Software Engineer Engineering Operations Red Hat, Inc From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 11:24:01 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 07:24:01 -0400 Subject: Bullet-proof method of asking upstream for clarification? In-Reply-To: <1216963317.3462.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1216905641.22593.0.camel@victoria> <1216963317.3462.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080725112401.GB31675@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 02:21:56PM +0900, Jared Smith wrote: > On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 09:20 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > It would be nice if some non-English speakers on this list would look at > > it. Then post to the list here to tell me if any of the text rubs you > > the wrong way! :-) > > Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a non-English speaker, but > it might be good to include a link to Fedora's licensing policy, so that > if nothing else, this can be an educational experience for the person > receiving an email such as this. Your wish is my command -- so added! ;-) https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/DraftUpstreamRequestEmail -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Fri Jul 25 11:43:21 2008 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:43:21 +0200 Subject: Bullet-proof method of asking upstream for clarification? In-Reply-To: <20080725112401.GB31675@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <1216905641.22593.0.camel@victoria> <1216963317.3462.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080725112401.GB31675@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1216986201.22751.51.camel@rousalka.okg> On Fri, 2008-07-25 at 07:24 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 02:21:56PM +0900, Jared Smith wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 09:20 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > It would be nice if some non-English speakers on this list would look at > > > it. Then post to the list here to tell me if any of the text rubs you > > > the wrong way! :-) > > > > Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a non-English speaker, but > > it might be good to include a link to Fedora's licensing policy, so that > > if nothing else, this can be an educational experience for the person > > receiving an email such as this. > > Your wish is my command -- so added! ;-) > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/DraftUpstreamRequestEmail I'm obviously a bad person to comment on, since my messages often go through as "undiplomatic", but can you add a line about adding a detached text license file in the same archive as the font files? Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 12:17:16 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:17:16 -0400 Subject: Bullet-proof method of asking upstream for clarification? In-Reply-To: <1216986201.22751.51.camel@rousalka.okg> References: <1216905641.22593.0.camel@victoria> <1216963317.3462.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080725112401.GB31675@victoria.internal.frields.org> <1216986201.22751.51.camel@rousalka.okg> Message-ID: <1216988236.921.0.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-07-25 at 13:43 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > On Fri, 2008-07-25 at 07:24 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 02:21:56PM +0900, Jared Smith wrote: > > > On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 09:20 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > It would be nice if some non-English speakers on this list would look at > > > > it. Then post to the list here to tell me if any of the text rubs you > > > > the wrong way! :-) > > > > > > Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a non-English speaker, but > > > it might be good to include a link to Fedora's licensing policy, so that > > > if nothing else, this can be an educational experience for the person > > > receiving an email such as this. > > > > Your wish is my command -- so added! ;-) > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/DraftUpstreamRequestEmail > > I'm obviously a bad person to comment on, since my messages often go > through as "undiplomatic", but can you add a line about adding a > detached text license file in the same archive as the font files? Added a bullet for this, thanks! -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mworrall at mworrall.karoo.co.uk Sat Jul 26 20:19:24 2008 From: mworrall at mworrall.karoo.co.uk (Mike Worrall) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:19:24 +0100 Subject: Self-Introduction: Mike Worrall Message-ID: <1217103564.6395.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Here goes:- Name : Mike Worrall Location : Kirk Ella, Hull , United Kingdom Profession : Computer Programmer Company : Howdens Joinery Goals in Fedora Project : To have fun , to contribute and to learn. Want to write about: Anything really. Interested in kernel stuff, programming IDEs , graphics packages. Other stuff i'd like to do: besides documentation , bug-fixing , a bit of programming & maybe packaging Historical Qualifications : English,Maths,History,Physics,Chemistry,Computer studies 'O' Levels Physics,Chemistry 'A' Levels HND Computer Studies PGD Computer Studies Never worked on any other open source projects. Have done a few projects at work though. SAP implementation + various bespoke warehouse systems Computer Qualifications: HND/PGD Computer Studies Computer Skills: Analysis & Design Programming : COBOL (stop laughing !) ABAP (SAP) Java 'C' What makes me an excellent match for this project? - a desire to help others. I really want to help - in any way - small or big GPG KEYID 809DB9BF FINGERPRINT 84C4 E321 9A04 99DA CEE4 F0B3 303C 5EF7 809D B9BF Hope I haven't missed anything (or put up the wrong info) From stickster at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 21:09:32 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 17:09:32 -0400 Subject: Self-Introduction: Mike Worrall In-Reply-To: <1217103564.6395.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1217103564.6395.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1217106572.4473.32.camel@victoria> On Sat, 2008-07-26 at 21:19 +0100, Mike Worrall wrote: > Here goes:- > > Name : Mike Worrall > Location : Kirk Ella, Hull , United Kingdom > Profession : Computer Programmer > Company : Howdens Joinery > > Goals in Fedora Project : > To have fun , to contribute and to learn. > > Want to write about: Anything really. Interested in kernel stuff, > programming IDEs , graphics packages. > > Other stuff i'd like to do: > besides documentation , bug-fixing , a bit of programming & maybe > packaging > > Historical Qualifications : > English,Maths,History,Physics,Chemistry,Computer studies 'O' Levels > Physics,Chemistry 'A' Levels > HND Computer Studies > PGD Computer Studies > > Never worked on any other open source projects. Have done a few projects > at work though. SAP implementation + various bespoke warehouse systems > > Computer Qualifications: > HND/PGD Computer Studies > Computer Skills: Analysis & Design > Programming : COBOL (stop laughing !) > ABAP (SAP) > Java > 'C' > > What makes me an excellent match for this project? - a desire to help > others. I really want to help - in any way - small or big > > GPG KEYID 809DB9BF > FINGERPRINT 84C4 E321 9A04 99DA CEE4 F0B3 303C 5EF7 809D B9BF > > Hope I haven't missed anything (or put up the wrong info) Hi Mike! One of the biggest initiatives going on right now is cleaning up our Wiki. We're trying to make sure that pages are categorized properly, among other things. Come by IRC Freenode at #fedora-docs and we can help you get started. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bugzilla at redhat.com Mon Jul 28 03:00:42 2008 From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:00:42 -0400 Subject: [Bug 456844] New: game crashes for no apparent reason Message-ID: Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional comments should be made in the comments box of this bug report. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=456844 Summary: game crashes for no apparent reason Product: Fedora Documentation Version: devel Platform: x86_64 OS/Version: Linux Status: NEW Severity: high Priority: low Component: project-tracking AssignedTo: kwade at redhat.com ReportedBy: linux at sardior.com QAContact: kwade at redhat.com CC: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com Description of problem: 8kingdoms - fedora 8 - Games I am using fedora 8 x86_64. I just want to get the developers an error message that only appeared once when it crashed. It crashes almost every time I play it, but only once did this error message appear. "Fatal Error: Promenna zadaneho jemna nenalezena" I have not received any bugzilla backtraces or anything that I could send you to assist fixing it. If you could let me know what I need to do to help find the problem please email me back. I have installed the 8kingdoms debug package, but to no avail for creating a backtrace. Version-Release number of selected component (if applicable): ver 1.1.0 How reproducible: It is random for when it crashes. I don't have a clue as to how to reproduce it except to just play the game. On any move it could happen. The longer the game the greater the chance it will crash. Steps to Reproduce: 1. 2. 3. Actual results: The screen blanks, the main fedora window comes up greatly expanded. Sometimes the mouse quits working, sometimes it doesn't. I reboot the computer and everything comes back to normal. I can also change screen resolution, not accept the new changes, and it will return to normal. Ran the program from a terminal and the return message was: ERROR in script execution. All defenders should be dead!! Segmentation fault This is the best I can do. I hope this helps. Expected results: Additional info: -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is. From bugzilla at redhat.com Mon Jul 28 03:11:03 2008 From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:11:03 -0400 Subject: [Bug 456844] game crashes for no apparent reason In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200807280311.m6S3B3Hn006429@bz-web1.app.phx.redhat.com> Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional comments should be made in the comments box of this bug report. Summary: game crashes for no apparent reason https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=456844 ivazqueznet at gmail.com changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC|fedora-docs-list at redhat.com | -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is. From bugzilla at redhat.com Mon Jul 28 03:10:10 2008 From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:10:10 -0400 Subject: [Bug 456844] game crashes for no apparent reason In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200807280310.m6S3AAVx006257@bz-web1.app.phx.redhat.com> Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional comments should be made in the comments box of this bug report. Summary: game crashes for no apparent reason https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=456844 ivazqueznet at gmail.com changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- AssignedTo|kwade at redhat.com |j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Component|project-tracking |8Kingdoms Product|Fedora Documentation |Fedora QAContact|kwade at redhat.com |extras-qa at fedoraproject.org Version|devel |8 -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is. From stickster at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 17:37:30 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:37:30 -0400 Subject: Translated license? Message-ID: <1217266650.1916.2.camel@victoria> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLegalIssues#aka_the_.22We_Are_Not_Lawyers.22_page The only priority 1 item shown is a very old Docs question regarding licensing and translation. The resource cost of repeatedly translating, checking, and maintaining a license in this way seems prohibitive. We ask whether translators can/should *start* on this effort, but do we really want to go down that road at all? If we're not going to carry it through to completion, is this item still relevant? -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon Jul 28 17:45:09 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:45:09 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-legal-list] Translated license? In-Reply-To: <1217266650.1916.2.camel@victoria> References: <1217266650.1916.2.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1217267109.3863.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 13:37 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLegalIssues#aka_the_.22We_Are_Not_Lawyers.22_page > > The only priority 1 item shown is a very old Docs question regarding > licensing and translation. The resource cost of repeatedly translating, > checking, and maintaining a license in this way seems prohibitive. We > ask whether translators can/should *start* on this effort, but do we > really want to go down that road at all? If we're not going to carry it > through to completion, is this item still relevant? For what it is worth, translated licenses is really failure. No translated license will hold up in court, and isn't even good legal advice. To do it properly is... expensive. ~spot From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 29 06:31:20 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:31:20 -0700 Subject: Quick Intro and RelNotes: Filesystems Beat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1217313080.10618.13.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 17:39 -0400, David Nalley wrote: > Hi all: > > Quick note to introduce myself and volunteer for the RelNotes Filesystems Beat > > I am a sysadmin for a consulting company based in South Carolina, > where about 25% of my job deals with creating documentation. I've been > a Fedora Ambassador for several years and contributed a few other > things. > I currently maintain the SecAdvisories Beat for FWN. > As for writing I have managed to fool a few magazine editors into > letting me write a few articles over the years. In a OSS project I was > involved in around 4 years ago I dealt with DocBook, but I am sure my > skills are pretty rusty from lack of use, but hopefully I can ramp > back up pretty quickly. > If no one else has stepped forward to handle the Filesystems Beat I'll do so. Welcome, thanks, and it's all yours! Go ahead and update the beat assignment. Most of the work happens on the wiki initially, but we would like to train others in the wiki2xml conversion process, if you are interested. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 29 06:35:18 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:35:18 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Jonathan Nalley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1217313318.10618.17.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 17:49 -0400, Jonathan Nalley wrote: > Hi, I'm Jonathan Nalley and I'm in the Greenville area of South Carolina, USA > I'm a Systems Engineer in the Systems Architecture department at > NuVox--a CLEC and other IT-ish services provider > > Initially, i'm interested in being a release notes beat writer, > specifically for the > Database servers (if no one else has volunteered for it) and we'll see where it > goes from there. I'm also interested in growing my own writing skills > while becoming involved in the community of a distro i've used and > enjoy using. Welcome, Jonathan. Wanted to make sure we caught this, thanks for volunteering for the database servers beat. You can update the assignments page here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats > I've been in the IT industry for about 10 years now and have been > involved in an open source project in the past. I enjoy technical > writing and do so now as a component of my paid job. I hope you get a chance to enjoy it within Fedora. In my experience, it is nice to have a place where you get to set the direction and can make stuff move faster than the corporate masters we also serve. :D - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org Tue Jul 29 13:15:48 2008 From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:15:48 -0400 Subject: Quick Intro and RelNotes: Filesystems Beat In-Reply-To: <1217313080.10618.13.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1217313080.10618.13.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:31 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 17:39 -0400, David Nalley wrote: >> Hi all: >> >> Quick note to introduce myself and volunteer for the RelNotes Filesystems Beat >> >> I am a sysadmin for a consulting company based in South Carolina, >> where about 25% of my job deals with creating documentation. I've been >> a Fedora Ambassador for several years and contributed a few other >> things. >> I currently maintain the SecAdvisories Beat for FWN. >> As for writing I have managed to fool a few magazine editors into >> letting me write a few articles over the years. In a OSS project I was >> involved in around 4 years ago I dealt with DocBook, but I am sure my >> skills are pretty rusty from lack of use, but hopefully I can ramp >> back up pretty quickly. >> If no one else has stepped forward to handle the Filesystems Beat I'll do so. > > Welcome, thanks, and it's all yours! Go ahead and update the beat > assignment. Most of the work happens on the wiki initially, but we > would like to train others in the wiki2xml conversion process, if you > are interested. > Updated. I am interested in learning the wiki2xml process. Thanks! David Nalley From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 29 18:04:08 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:04:08 -0700 Subject: help with the F10 Alpha notes Message-ID: <1217354648.10618.79.camel@calliope.phig.org> For the Alpha and Beta releases, we do a one-page wiki of release notes. This lets the content be the latest. We also lessen the burden on the Localization (L10n) project. The main focus of these notes is for people testing the Alpha release. It should highlight current known problems, things developers want tested, and so forth. It is *not* a get-excited-here-comes-something-in-six-weeks-feature-list-review. But don't forget that tech reviewers and bloggers read this, so it does point at the feature list, etc. On this page, the opening is a copy and update from F9, with the actual new content starting in this section: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/10/Alpha/ReleaseNotes#Release_Overview TASK: Can someone start adding the in-progress features under the appropriate categories? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/10/FeatureList Not all features need to be mentioned, use your judgment. Beat writers -- you can put in any content that is relevant for your beat, use your judgment. Questions? Ask here (preferred), #fedora-docs is always open. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 29 22:56:47 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:56:47 -0700 Subject: Self-Introduction: Mike Worrall In-Reply-To: <1217103564.6395.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1217103564.6395.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1217372207.10618.113.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Sat, 2008-07-26 at 21:19 +0100, Mike Worrall wrote: > programming IDEs To pluck this out of the aether ... One of goal is to make Fedora the leading OS for developers, especially now that we can get most of the world's languages compiling natively in Fedora. There really isn't much Fedora-specific documentation for using IDEs, such as Eclipse: http://sourceware.org/eclipse/ If that is something you are interested in, especially tutorials and how-to documents, I'm sure we can keep you happy. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 29 23:33:13 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:33:13 -0700 Subject: Reviewing the use of admonitions In-Reply-To: <1216856146.28820.13.camel@victoria> References: <488540F1.2020100@redhat.com> <1216726190.3601.28.camel@victoria> <4887AE21.9010908@christensenplace.us> <1216852476.28820.2.camel@victoria> <1216852587.28820.4.camel@victoria> <4887B88A.8050306@christensenplace.us> <1216856146.28820.13.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1217374393.10618.119.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 19:35 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 19:02 -0400, Eric Christensen wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Okay, so lets make it happen! > > Would you like to make the change to the Documentation Guide, advocating > the use of only tip, note, and caution with the definitions found at > GNOME? > http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/2.22/infodesign-18.html.en David: Thanks for getting this fixed 'upstream'. ;-) Can you also chop and combine the parts in the wiki? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Editing#Notes.2C_Tips.2C_and_Other_Admonitions Maybe Nigel can run the wikibot to do the same combining in any pages that use the admonitions? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From daobrien at redhat.com Wed Jul 30 00:07:38 2008 From: daobrien at redhat.com (David O'Brien) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:07:38 +1000 Subject: Reviewing the use of admonitions In-Reply-To: <1217374393.10618.119.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <488540F1.2020100@redhat.com> <1216726190.3601.28.camel@victoria> <4887AE21.9010908@christensenplace.us> <1216852476.28820.2.camel@victoria> <1216852587.28820.4.camel@victoria> <4887B88A.8050306@christensenplace.us> <1216856146.28820.13.camel@victoria> <1217374393.10618.119.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <488FB0CA.3020905@redhat.com> Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 19:35 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 19:02 -0400, Eric Christensen wrote: >> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>> Hash: SHA1 >>> >>> Okay, so lets make it happen! >>> >> Would you like to make the change to the Documentation Guide, advocating >> the use of only tip, note, and caution with the definitions found at >> GNOME? >> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/2.22/infodesign-18.html.en >> > > David: > > Thanks for getting this fixed 'upstream'. ;-) > > Can you also chop and combine the parts in the wiki? > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Editing#Notes.2C_Tips.2C_and_Other_Admonitions > > Maybe Nigel can run the wikibot to do the same combining in any pages > that use the admonitions? > > - Karsten > Brian & Jeff, You two guys were having a side discussion on this topic. Where did you get to? -- David O'Brien IPA Content Author Red Hat Asia Pacific "We couldn't care less about comfort. We make you feel good." Federico Minoli CEO Ducati Motor S.p.A. From virtualtux0 at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 00:25:37 2008 From: virtualtux0 at gmail.com (Kai Heimann) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:25:37 +1000 Subject: Self-Introduction: Kai Heimann Message-ID: <488FB501.6050500@gmail.com> Hello everybody, my name is Kai Heimann and I live in Townsville, Australia. I am a student at James Cook University, studying a Bachelor of Information Technology, currently in my second year. I would like to get actively involved in the Fedora Project as I use Fedora and am always recommending it to people. I believe that OSS is a solution for most people out there, but it does take the involvement of the community to make sure that it keeps growing, changing and improving. My goal in the Fedora Project is to try and aid others in becoming more adept at using Linux based operating systems, by ensuring that the software and documentation that is provided is first class. I am mostly interested in writing How-tos and mini How-tos, but would also like to get involved in proof reading documentation. I believe that I can be of benefit to the Fedora Project in a number of ways. As I have been mostly a writer of academic documentation, including reports, proposals and essays, with limited exposure to writing tutorials, I am open to suggestions as in where to get started on this track. I have a moderate amount of computer knowledge, both in software and hardware, spending most of my time learning new skills that allow me to enhance my Linux experience, mostly at the shell. I am able to do some programming in C++, Java, C# and Python, as well as shell scripting, with a sound knowledge of program logic and design. My biggest asset that I believe that I bring to the project is my belief in the OSS philosophy and the Fedora Project, with a strong desire to get professionally involved in Linux upon graduation. I hope to work with all of you in the future and being of benefit to the Project in the best way that I can be. Kind regards, Kai Heimann pub 1024D/06B52155 2008-07-29 Key fingerprint = 4C0E 952B C427 ED0B D44D 8774 B278 0FFE 06B5 2155 uid Kai Heimann sub 2048g/075380A9 2008-07-29 -- Keep it simple; as simple as posible, but no simpler. - Albert Einstein From noriko at redhat.com Wed Jul 30 01:38:00 2008 From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:38:00 +1000 Subject: [Fedora-legal-list] Translated license? In-Reply-To: <1217267109.3863.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1217266650.1916.2.camel@victoria> <1217267109.3863.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <488FC5F8.402@redhat.com> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 13:37 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLegalIssues#aka_the_.22We_Are_Not_Lawyers.22_page >> >> The only priority 1 item shown is a very old Docs question regarding >> licensing and translation. The resource cost of repeatedly translating, >> checking, and maintaining a license in this way seems prohibitive. We >> ask whether translators can/should *start* on this effort, but do we >> really want to go down that road at all? If we're not going to carry it >> through to completion, is this item still relevant? > > For what it is worth, translated licenses is really failure. No > translated license will hold up in court, and isn't even good legal > advice. To do it properly is... expensive. > > ~spot It may be translated with disclaimer, but for this particular legal notice, it seem not worth to do so at least to me. noriko > From ccurran at redhat.com Wed Jul 30 05:57:47 2008 From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:57:47 +1000 Subject: Quick Intro and RelNotes: Filesystems Beat In-Reply-To: References: <1217313080.10618.13.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <489002DB.8070407@redhat.com> David Nalley wrote: > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:31 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > >> On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 17:39 -0400, David Nalley wrote: >> >>> Hi all: >>> >>> Quick note to introduce myself and volunteer for the RelNotes Filesystems Beat >>> >>> I am a sysadmin for a consulting company based in South Carolina, >>> where about 25% of my job deals with creating documentation. I've been >>> a Fedora Ambassador for several years and contributed a few other >>> things. >>> I currently maintain the SecAdvisories Beat for FWN. >>> As for writing I have managed to fool a few magazine editors into >>> letting me write a few articles over the years. In a OSS project I was >>> involved in around 4 years ago I dealt with DocBook, but I am sure my >>> skills are pretty rusty from lack of use, but hopefully I can ramp >>> back up pretty quickly. >>> If no one else has stepped forward to handle the Filesystems Beat I'll do so. >>> >> Welcome, thanks, and it's all yours! Go ahead and update the beat >> assignment. Most of the work happens on the wiki initially, but we >> would like to train others in the wiki2xml conversion process, if you >> are interested. >> >> > > Updated. I am interested in learning the wiki2xml process. > > Thanks! > > David Nalley > > The editor in me suggests we standardise on file system instead of filesystem. It looks and reads better and when one can avoid a neologism they should. And yes if you cc me once it's written I'll be happy to edit for you :) Chris From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 11:48:53 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:48:53 -0400 Subject: Quick Intro and RelNotes: Filesystems Beat In-Reply-To: <489002DB.8070407@redhat.com> References: <1217313080.10618.13.camel@calliope.phig.org> <489002DB.8070407@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1217418533.3694.24.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 15:57 +1000, Christopher Curran wrote: > David Nalley wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:31 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 17:39 -0400, David Nalley wrote: > >> > >>> Hi all: > >>> > >>> Quick note to introduce myself and volunteer for the RelNotes Filesystems Beat > >>> > >>> I am a sysadmin for a consulting company based in South Carolina, > >>> where about 25% of my job deals with creating documentation. I've been > >>> a Fedora Ambassador for several years and contributed a few other > >>> things. > >>> I currently maintain the SecAdvisories Beat for FWN. > >>> As for writing I have managed to fool a few magazine editors into > >>> letting me write a few articles over the years. In a OSS project I was > >>> involved in around 4 years ago I dealt with DocBook, but I am sure my > >>> skills are pretty rusty from lack of use, but hopefully I can ramp > >>> back up pretty quickly. > >>> If no one else has stepped forward to handle the Filesystems Beat I'll do so. > >>> > >> Welcome, thanks, and it's all yours! Go ahead and update the beat > >> assignment. Most of the work happens on the wiki initially, but we > >> would like to train others in the wiki2xml conversion process, if you > >> are interested. > >> > >> > > > > Updated. I am interested in learning the wiki2xml process. > > > > Thanks! > > > > David Nalley > > > > > The editor in me suggests we standardise on file system instead of > filesystem. It looks and reads better and when one can avoid a neologism > they should. And yes if you cc me once it's written I'll be happy to > edit for you :) I for one agree with this. No decent spell checker even recognizes "filesystem," but I admit I've been guilty of using it from time to time. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 30 17:32:44 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:32:44 -0700 Subject: RFC: wiki page naming Message-ID: <1217439164.10618.183.camel@calliope.phig.org> This page has been edited to show a final structure for how pages are named: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_structure#Page_naming The background discussion on why is found here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help_talk:Wiki_Structure In the end, I was swayed by nim (Nicolas Mailhot) and Ian Weller over two items. The first part is the global, multi-lingual audience. Here is a relevant section from the discussion: From quaid: Say outloud these two page titles: "Docs Project meetings" and "Meetings of the Docs Project". They are both accurate and sound fine, for native language speakers. In English, it is more likely that the shorter, more declarative form ("Docs Project meetings") is going to be used; many would call that version "more natural", perhaps because of the English speaker's habit of removing articles (the) and prepositions (of). * One way to explain why to use this style of naming, rather than calling it "natural language forms", say they are "easier to understand for non-native readers" and "easier to translate." * Another good argument is that having pages with intrinsically accurate titles means they sort properly on the category page. As you point out, all the meetings then fall under "Meetings of Foo-20080630" and sort chronologically etc. * Agree --Ian Weller 04:28, 2 July 2008 (UTC) The second part is in how I think we can use MediaWiki. The wiki should guide people in how to do something -- learn more, do more, play more, etc. To make such guides with a Sub/Page/Structure forces content to exist in only one ''guide space'', fixed by name. The only way to change it is to change all the page names and update incoming links. In WM, the categories are the guide spaces. We'll use [[Category:Packaging Guidelines]] on every page of the current PackagingGuidelines/ guide space, then rename each page to something unique to that page. For example: * '''old''' PackagingGuidelines#Beware_of_Rpath * '''new''' Beware_of_rpath_in_packaging Then a visit to [[Category:Packaging Guidelines]] shows the pages, all in alphabetical order, all stating what they are about. To recreate the layout of the current PackagingGuidelines page, we construct a page that either links to or transcludes all the particular pages in the order you wish. Using a transclude allows the page to be reorganized and autocreate the ToC, so is the preferable method. As an example of the mess we currently have, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging currently redirects here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Prefixindex/Packaging Anything confusing on that page? This new method is designed to solve ugly pages like that. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ianweller at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 18:14:07 2008 From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:14:07 -0500 Subject: RFC: wiki page naming In-Reply-To: <1217439164.10618.183.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1217439164.10618.183.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <20080730181407.GE6240@gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:32:44AM -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > * '''old''' PackagingGuidelines#Beware_of_Rpath > * '''new''' Beware_of_rpath_in_packaging > Ew. No. All the Packaging_Guidelines should be on one page. -- Ian Weller http://ianweller.org GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36 "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet." ~ Douglas Adams -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 19:00:06 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:00:06 +0000 Subject: RFC: wiki page naming In-Reply-To: <20080730181407.GE6240@gmail.com> References: <1217439164.10618.183.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080730181407.GE6240@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1217444406.3694.101.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 13:14 -0500, Ian Weller wrote: > On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:32:44AM -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > * '''old''' PackagingGuidelines#Beware_of_Rpath > > * '''new''' Beware_of_rpath_in_packaging > > > Ew. No. All the Packaging_Guidelines should be on one page. I don't understand, doesn't [[Category: Packaging Guidelines]] make that possible? -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 30 19:09:19 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:09:19 -0700 Subject: RFC: wiki page naming In-Reply-To: <1217444406.3694.101.camel@victoria> References: <1217439164.10618.183.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080730181407.GE6240@gmail.com> <1217444406.3694.101.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1217444959.10618.220.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 19:00 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 13:14 -0500, Ian Weller wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:32:44AM -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > * '''old''' PackagingGuidelines#Beware_of_Rpath > > > * '''new''' Beware_of_rpath_in_packaging > > > > > Ew. No. All the Packaging_Guidelines should be on one page. > > I don't understand, doesn't [[Category: Packaging Guidelines]] make that > possible? We discussed on IRC, the point is, all that content needs to be viewable from one page for a packager. If we are going to present it as one page, why break it down for now reason? I thought it was too big, but it's OK to be a bit over the MW suggested limit for this purpose. So, I need to update the example, but the concept of using a Category to gather many separate chapter pages still works. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 22:56:20 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:56:20 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Release Planning Recap :: 2008-07-30, UTC 1700] Message-ID: <1217458580.5112.75.camel@victoria> -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: Paul W. Frields > To: fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com, fedora-advisory-board > > Subject: Release Planning Recap :: 2008-07-30, UTC 1700 > Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:43:13 +0000 > > = Release planning meeting, 2008-07-30 = [...snip...] > === Docs === > * Alpha and Beta release notes are a one-sheet on the wiki > ** Living document, can change after release day > ** QA, Desktop, and RelEng have done a great job of adding some > important content > ** Priority is to let testers know what you want them to do with the > Alpha > '''DEBUGGING:''' We need a list of pre-approved URLs for release > announcement > * Docs can handle the majority of the text for the release announcement > email, and check URLs, so releng can concentrate on sending it out when > final > * Release notes production is hopefully going to change with F10 to use > an in-distro tool, publican, to build I'm holding on a RH press blog entry that will also tout the Alpha release for a wider community. If we can get this list of URLs together -- and would it make sense for that to live somewhere longer-term? -- I want to use it in this blog entry too. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jul 31 00:18:18 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:18:18 -0700 Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2008-07-30 IRC log Message-ID: <1217463498.10618.265.camel@calliope.phig.org> Pretty version at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080730 12:05 < quaid> 12:05 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - roll call, greets 12:05 * quaid is here :) 12:05 * ianweller 12:06 * jsmith is here 12:06 * Sparks here 12:06 -!- abadger19991 [n=abadger1 at 65.78.187.8] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:06 < quaid> agenda is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting 12:06 -!- abadger1999 [n=abadger1 at 65.78.187.8] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:06 < G> I'm here :) 12:06 * ke4qqq is here 12:07 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr at fedora/JSchmitt] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 12:07 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - Wiki namespaces discussion 12:07 < stickster> quaid: I just added something to that agenda 12:07 < quaid> ok 12:07 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00092.html 12:07 < quaid> that is the RFC currently under discussion 12:08 < G> quaid: might be something to pull out my original e-mail to docs/websites too 12:08 * ianweller wonders whether we should say "Documentation Project" or "Docs Project" now that we're moving to spaces/full names 12:08 -!- abadger1999 [n=abadger1 at 65.78.187.8] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:08 -!- rvokal [n=radek at ip-89-102-32-70.karneval.cz] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:09 < G> quaid: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00015.html - the original namespace discussion 12:09 * quaid was replying onlist too 12:09 < quaid> ianweller: people say Docs, like it or not, so I gave up on that a bit ago; but worth standardizing, yes :) 12:10 * ianweller wonders how google-friendly that is 12:10 < quaid> G: yes, but that is a bit farther down in the agenda 12:10 -!- mether [n=sundaram at nat/redhat-in/x-6f9c178ba5415a81] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:10 < G> quaid: errr the 'namespaces' got me, oop :0 12:10 < quaid> ianweller: hard to say; techie people seem to always use 'docs' but documenters prefer 'documentation' 12:11 < quaid> G: yep, sorry :) 12:11 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs - wiki page naming discussion 12:11 < quaid> that's what I meant :) 12:11 * ianweller googles for "fedora documentation" and sees if he gets DocsProject. 12:11 < quaid> ok, so are there any questions about the RFC? 12:12 < ianweller> we know why, and we know where to move things. how to do it though? 12:12 < quaid> one thing before that 12:13 < quaid> is everyone comfortable with Docs making this decision and putting it forward as done to the contributor community? 12:13 < Sparks> +1 12:13 < quaid> v. sending an RFC to f-devel-l :D 12:13 < ianweller> no. we have an RFC, we need a policy that contributors can follow, i think 12:13 < G> quaid: I disagree with mass transclusion btw 12:13 < G> (of content pages) 12:13 < ke4qqq> quaid: +1 12:13 < ianweller> i don't think what we have now is in policy state 12:13 < quaid> G: you mean, my idea of building a guide is mass transclusion? 12:13 < quaid> ianweller: right, but ... 12:14 < ianweller> and, to the new user, i think it's a bit confusing 12:14 < quaid> the biggest point of contention is going to be the stupid naming 12:14 < quaid> +1 that it is *not* a policy 12:14 < G> quaid: correct 12:14 < quaid> and needs sto be 12:14 < ianweller> that's a good "ok here's how we're *moving* it" page, but we need something that says "this is how the wiki is organized, deal with it" 12:14 < ianweller> yeah 12:14 < quaid> G: is it that much of a performance hit difference? 12:15 < quaid> I thought each section was separate in the db anyway 12:15 < quaid> ianweller: but are you comfortable with us making all that policy and not taking argument about it? 12:15 < ianweller> yes. 12:16 < quaid> I mean, the Packaging Committee has a process to get changes approved; this would be like that, don't just bitch on a mailing list but bring a real proposal. 12:16 < quaid> stickster: how about you? 12:16 < G> quaid: I think the difference is, it can pull an entire page in one query, where as for transclusions it had to keep making queries 12:16 < quaid> G: ok 12:16 < stickster> Sorry, there is a conversation going on here that I am trying to shut out so I can catch up here 12:16 < G> I may be wrong, I havn't had my morning coffee and I'm just running off memory :) 12:17 < quaid> g: it might have been a mis-guided solution to a non-problem; definitely we should set a policy on that, maybe a limit on the # of sections to transclude? 12:17 < quaid> G: ouch, sorry, it _is_ early there 12:17 -!- dwmw2 is now known as dwmw2_gone 12:17 < stickster> quaid: OK, the RFC is to use "real languge" for page titles, and categories to organize pages ? 12:18 < G> quaid: I think the proper solution would be to say: split the document in three bits or so (to avoid it getting too large) 12:18 < ianweller> G: split the document in, say, 20KB bits, so that it's unlikely for pages to go over 32KB? 12:18 < G> "General Policies", "RPM Issues", "Technical Policies" type thing 12:19 < quaid> stickster: ok, here's the question I asked you: 12:19 * ianweller still doesn't know what sort of performance hit transcluding lots of pages takes, and wonders if #mediawiki knows 12:19 < G> ianweller: I dont consider the 32KB rule as a general policy 12:19 * stickster apologizes, too many concurrent inputs :-) 12:19 < quaid> "Are we OK with Docs making the policy for wiki structure, including naming, and pushing it forward as "done until you formally help change it"?" 12:19 < G> the 32KB warning comes from some browsers not been able to cope with it iirc 12:19 < ianweller> G: well, right. so in my mind, anything larger than 32KB is right out 12:20 < quaid> ianweller: but you said Packaging_Guidelines needs to be one page :) 12:20 < G> ianweller: I don't know of any browsers these days that have such a problem 12:20 < stickster> quaid: +1 on that. 12:20 < quaid> stickster: ok! :) 12:20 < stickster> quaid: The day belongs to those who seize it. 12:20 * ianweller is a hypocrite again, damn! 12:20 < quaid> carpe seizem 12:20 * ianweller goes to get more tea 12:20 < quaid> ok, then 12:20 < quaid> just to recap: 12:20 < stickster> ianweller wants to eat his cake and have it too :-D 12:20 < quaid> * we agree we are empowered to do this 12:20 < G> quaid: I disagree with transcluding it, I'd favour logical splitting :) 12:21 * ianweller goes back through his head and rehashes out what he wants 12:21 < quaid> * we need to convert the Help:Wiki_structure to a policy page 12:21 < stickster> G: I think you can really do both at will. 12:21 < stickster> It's kind of a red herring issue. 12:22 < G> (It's currently 52KB so a split in two - General Packaging Guidelines, Technical Packaging Guidelines 12:22 < quaid> ok, that's later in the agnedna :) 12:22 < quaid> let's finish with page naming 12:23 < quaid> Ian's point on list about not splitting the P_G too small is noted/OK 12:23 -!- abadger19991 [n=abadger1 at 65.78.187.8] has quit [No route to host] 12:23 < ianweller> right now we already split P_G into different sections for specific languages, btw 12:23 < quaid> so, on naming 12:24 < quaid> an no Sub/Pages 12:24 < quaid> all happy with that? 12:24 < quaid> I think we need a bit of list discussion, too, fwiw 12:24 < G> I disagree 12:24 < G> I have a technical arguement too that I just remembered 12:24 < ianweller> is the no Sub/Pages a soft limit, meaning we still have Artwork/Join? 12:24 < ianweller> G: mm? 12:24 < quaid> ianweller: not a soft limit IMO 12:25 -!- dstimson [n=dale at 68-185-24-58.static.mdfd.or.charter.com] has left #fedora-meeting ["Leaving"] 12:25 < ianweller> quaid: same here. /me wants no slashes ;) 12:25 < ianweller> except in non-main namespaces 12:25 < G> Legal have asked us, to make sure Legal/* is read only to everyone but people in the Legal group, Packaging/* is read only to people except in Packaging group, we can't just shut them out 12:25 < quaid> I want to see one or another method, and tightly enforced 12:25 < quaid> G: how do ACLs work? 12:25 < G> I proposed separte namespaces from them at inception but was told "ewww thats ugly" 12:25 -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who_Know at fedora/sonarguy] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:25 < G> *for them 12:26 < ianweller> G: can we ACL by category? 12:26 * ianweller presumes not 12:26 < G> quaid: Packaging/* 12:26 -!- abadger1999 [n=abadger1 at 65.78.187.8] has quit [No route to host] 12:26 < quaid> G: what about Packaging* 12:26 < quaid> and Legal* 12:26 < G> ianweller: nope, MW doesn't allow that type of call 12:26 < quaid> without the / 12:26 < ianweller> quaid: but then we might run into other issues. 12:26 < G> quaid: I wouldn't be sure, but I'd feel that was an ugly solution 12:26 < quaid> well, sure, if someone wants to write "Legally_thinking_about_open_source" they cannot 12:27 < ianweller> i *personally* think that namespaces could/should/must be used 12:27 < ianweller> for cases such as these 12:27 < quaid> ianweller: you mean 12:27 < quaid> Namespace:s 12:27 < quaid> not Name/Space 12:27 < ianweller> quaid: yes. 12:27 -!- spstarr_work [n=spstarr at 192.219.104.10] has left #fedora-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] 12:27 < ianweller> i am not sure how people decided that Name/Space meant namespace :/ 12:27 < ianweller> (no offense to anyone) 12:28 < quaid> ianweller: ha! 12:28 < G> and you've got to consider that "Packaging:Foo" is going to have the exact same effect as "Packaging/Foo" 12:28 < quaid> ianweller: um, we had that term in general usebefore Mediawiki was born :) 12:28 < ianweller> quaid: oh ok. 12:28 < quaid> G: 'effect'? 12:28 < Sparks> In MW... What's the difference between Docs/Page and Docs:Page? 12:28 < quaid> Sparks: search is in specific namespaces 12:28 < ianweller> Sparks: you can decide to include/exclude certain Namespace:s in search. 12:28 < G> quaid: yuckyness in Category sorts etc iirc 12:28 < quaid> Sparks: we can reset the default, but that doesn't change it for existing users 12:29 < ianweller> G: can't you fix that? 12:29 < ianweller> potentially with wikibot? 12:29 < ke4qqq> quaid: yes but you can change default search 12:29 < quaid> ke4qqq: not for existing users aiui 12:29 < G> quaid: we can change it for existing users 12:29 < quaid> we _are_ going to change it, one time we hope 12:29 < quaid> G: oh, ok 12:29 < G> quaid: I said that during one of the other discussions 12:29 -!- bpepple|lt [n=bpepple|@rrcs-70-62-4-107.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:29 < quaid> G: thx, I forgot 12:29 < G> quaid: but I'd perfer to hold off on that until we get the l10n wikis sorted 12:30 < quaid> here's my thinking then ... 12:30 < quaid> on ACLs 12:30 < quaid> if Legal needs a protected space, move it off the wiki 12:30 < ianweller> quaid: we tried pushing that to them at the beginning too 12:30 < quaid> if Packaging needs a guide that cannot be edited by the masses, move it off the wiki 12:30 < ianweller> since wikis are not made for ACLs. 12:30 < Sparks> quaid: If you start moving people off the wiki then how will anyone know where to look for inforamtion? 12:30 < quaid> Sparks: the wiki is not the sole source of info 12:30 < ianweller> but they certainly did not like that. at all. 12:31 < G> quaid: that in my opinion isn't a good solution 12:31 < quaid> Sparks: docs.fp.o/release-notes for example 12:31 < quaid> ianweller, G why? 12:31 < quaid> oh, they want the ease of a wiki but not have it be a wiki? 12:31 < quaid> get a CMS, I say 12:31 < Sparks> quaid: Yeah, which is one reason why I think people have ahard time finding information 12:31 < ianweller> yes. 12:31 < ianweller> quaid: hehe 12:31 < ianweller> of course! 12:31 < quaid> Sparks: the wiki needs to link to the rest of the world, too' we cannot put all in the wiki, it sucks too much for content management 12:32 < G> quaid: that sort of stuff changes frequently and a wiki is a good way to display such information 12:32 < quaid> G: it actually doesn't change that frequently 12:32 < ianweller> (should we get some people who work on Legal/* and Packaging/* stuff's input?) 12:32 < G> quaid: parts of the Packaging/* area have a bit of turnover I've seen 12:33 * ianweller just had the idea of shoving the packaging guidelines into docbook, in a repo on fedorahosted 12:33 * ianweller notes that that idea is *not* going to be popular 12:33 < quaid> G: if they are active, why cannot they watch the pages like the rest of us do? 12:33 < quaid> ianweller: if they need ACLs, maybe that is the best thing 12:33 < quaid> here 12:33 < ianweller> quaid: i think so. 12:33 < quaid> here's what I'm getting at: 12:33 -!- AndreasR [n=medic at ext-32-32.mobile.unibas.ch] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:33 < quaid> we CANNOT make our naming decisions based on these corner cases 12:33 < quaid> that are leftover from previous bad decisions 12:33 < quaid> in the previous wiki. 12:34 < quaid> we CAN make an exception 12:34 < ianweller> agreed. 12:34 < quaid> and allow Legal/ and Packaging/ 12:34 < G> I think thats what we need to do really 12:34 < ianweller> (but only for now, imho) 12:34 < quaid> but, G, really, is it worth carrying on that travesty for all pages? 12:34 < G> for now anyway 12:34 < G> quaid: How about this: 12:34 < ianweller> there's a better solution, and we can decide on that with the respective name/space owners later 12:34 < G> * Allow Legal/ Packaging/ as exceptions for now 12:35 < G> * Approve Legal: Packaging: if they want it (but say it's an equally ugly solution) and recommend they incorporate stuff into the websites or documentation 12:35 < ianweller> +1 12:36 < quaid> +1, with the caveat that we can go get spot's input before entirely granting the exception 12:36 < quaid> (since spot is the dude leading both of those sections) 12:36 < ianweller> yes. 12:36 < G> * When the l10n wikis are put in, then change everyones default search to add those namespaces 12:36 < G> (and add the namespace then) 12:37 < ianweller> G: we need to i18n namespaces too, right? 12:37 < quaid> ianweller: it's just l10n, aiui 12:37 < G> no 12:37 < quaid> we use i18n to l10n the pages 12:37 < ianweller> well 12:38 < ianweller> what i mean is 12:38 < ianweller> change the name of the namespace into whatever it is for the respective language 12:38 < ianweller> just keep the same ID numbers in the database at the very least 12:38 < G> for most cases thats done, and it'd be a requirement of the l10n teams to do such a task before the wiki is created 12:38 < ianweller> excellent 12:39 < G> I've already discussed quite a bit of the implementation stuff like this with couf 12:39 < quaid> cool 12:39 < quaid> any more on this naming? 12:40 < quaid> do we think we have consensus here? 12:40 < ianweller> i think we're good. 12:40 < G> quaid: yeah, but we really need to look into the Legal/ Packaging/ stuff a bit more 12:40 < quaid> G: I know you mentally prefer Sub/Page, and I do think many people agree, but the l10n need in the end was a big persuader for me 12:40 < ianweller> then again, it's just the three (four?) of us talking about it, from what i can tell 12:41 < quaid> i.e., Artwork/Join has impedence mismatch with what that page actually is, Join_the_Art_project 12:41 < quaid> ianweller: carpe diem, etc. 12:41 < G> quaid: FreeDistribution is another one that uses ACLs on their subpage 12:41 * ianweller yawns 12:41 < ianweller> ;) 12:41 < G> quaid: it's a case of, I think in most cases subpages look nicer 12:41 < ianweller> G: so should we change your proposal from Legal/* and Packaging/* to whatever happens to be in the HNP ACL at the moment? 12:42 < quaid> wtf is FreeDistribution? 12:42 < G> quaid: the Free CDs folks 12:42 < G> they ACL a couple of the pages 12:42 < quaid> I'd want to go to each group and find out why they need ACLs 12:43 < quaid> well, a couple can be just done manually, right? 12:43 < G> even Infrastructure have ACL'd pages 12:43 < quaid> the exception is where an entire set of content needs ACLs 12:43 -!- alexxed [n=alex at conference/mozilla-summit/x-2b2f748cd8cfed4d] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:43 < G> quaid: correct 12:43 * G would really like to do away with HNP tbh, it's ugly 12:44 * ianweller would like to do away with any extensions we don't actually need (i.e., HNP) ;) 12:44 < G> it's an ugly solution to do something that mediawiki isn't designed for 12:45 < G> quaid: just sent you a /notice, don't know if you'll be able to read it, but if you can it's a list of the current ACLs 12:46 < G> ohhh forgot Licensing too, thats a big chunk 12:47 -!- mether [n=sundaram at nat/redhat-in/x-6f9c178ba5415a81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47 -!- paragn [n=paragn at fedora/paragn] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47 < quaid> yeah, a few Foo/ exceptions is OK 12:48 < ianweller> with the mention that they shouldn't be exceptions, imho. 12:48 < quaid> mainly what I want is the general, open, edit-me content for contributors and users is a flat namespace, easy to know what to name, lots of categories 12:48 < quaid> oh, yeah! 12:48 < quaid> how about we create a bunch of stub category pages? 12:48 -!- paragn [n=paragn at fedora/paragn] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:48 < quaid> Category:Bug_Triage for example 12:48 -!- mether [n=sundaram at 59.160.127.177] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:48 < ianweller> so, Category:Bug_triaging_stubs? 12:48 < quaid> i.e., at least one for each ProjectName/ we are replacing with the renaming 12:49 < quaid> and advertise that as the category to use instead of the old SubPage/Style 12:49 < G> quaid: in some cases they already have a similar category, it'd be best to send wikibot over them - like I did for the Docs pages and rename them 12:49 < ianweller> i'm not sure if this is relevant right now but how nim-nim has been doing things for fonts is that he's been using the Category: page as the main page for his SIG 12:49 < quaid> G: right, let's do all that 12:49 * quaid adds that to the wiki gardening tasks 12:50 < ianweller> which i recommend against using Category:s as starting points. 12:50 < G> ianweller: that imo isn't using the category page for what it's designed to do 12:50 < ianweller> G: yeah 12:51 < quaid> hmm 12:51 -!- LyosNorezel [n=LyosNore at unaffiliated/lyosnorezel] has left #fedora-meeting [] 12:51 < quaid> makes it easy, though :) 12:52 < ianweller> it does, but it's not what we want, i think. 12:52 < ianweller> some projects will want to do that, most won't 12:52 < ianweller> and we need to standardize it 12:52 < quaid> we can recommend against it? or make a rule, not sure 12:52 * ianweller would make it a strong recommendation against. 12:52 < ianweller> if not a rule 12:53 < ianweller> i'd say that's up to you guys to decide 12:53 < quaid> ok, so ... 12:53 < G> agreed, 12:53 < quaid> I think we've covered the top item on the agenda 12:53 < ianweller> in a record time of 53 minutes! :=o 12:53 < ianweller> :-o* 12:54 < ianweller> ;) 12:54 < ianweller> is someone logging/noting what we decided? 12:54 < quaid> ianweller: I like the idea of using the MW style guide as a basis, then noting the variations 12:54 < quaid> similar to what we do with GNOME Docs style guide, etc. 12:54 < quaid> ianweller: I'll take the summary task today :) 12:54 < stickster> heh 12:54 < ianweller> excellent 12:54 < stickster> quaid: Thanks 12:54 < ianweller> imho, people should be familiar with the wikipedia page naming guidelines *first* and then read our specifications 12:55 < ianweller> or, we can take wikipedia's and adapt them appropriately 12:56 < ianweller> quaid: iirc the next item on the agenda was namespace:s? or did we kinda sorta cover that 12:56 * ianweller was thinking maybe we should decide what should be the initial namespaces 12:56 < quaid> ianweller: yeah, we jumped over that, sorry 12:56 < quaid> but I think we can decide that 12:56 < ianweller> heh 12:56 * ianweller notes that Features: would be an important one 12:56 < quaid> hmmm 12:56 < quaid> I wonder if we have a bigger discussion here?> 12:56 < ianweller> we kinda do. 12:56 < quaid> should we worry about a proliferation of namespaces? 12:57 < ianweller> i think we should only approve namespaces if the content will not be considered documenation for end users or contributors 12:57 < G> quaid: It could potentially get too big 12:57 < ianweller> but otherwise, we need a hard rule one way or the other 12:57 < quaid> ianweller: yeah, that was my thinking in general 12:57 < G> ianweller: in that case feature pages fit into that rule 12:57 < ianweller> G: yes, they do 12:58 < ianweller> but, then so do theme proposals from the artwork team. 12:58 < quaid> so, no Features: namespace? 12:58 < G> err I mean, they fit into "documentation for end users or contributors" 12:58 < quaid> G: +1 12:58 < ianweller> how do they do that? i see them more as FESCo organization in my mind 12:58 < quaid> contributors work on them 12:59 < quaid> marketers use them to write from 12:59 < quaid> people read them to know what is coming 12:59 < quaid> etc. 12:59 < G> exactly 12:59 < ianweller> so we're going to just use the concept of putting 'feature' somewhere in the title and categorizing it appropriately as it is now? 13:00 < ianweller> like "Better webcam support feature for F10" 13:00 < ianweller> maybe even s/feature // 13:00 < G> well thats the way the rest of the policy is going, so yes 13:00 < ianweller> ok. 13:00 < quaid> ianweller: John maintains a set of categories 13:00 < ianweller> quaid: i know 13:00 < quaid> that is where to find the list ultimately, not by name 13:00 < ianweller> Category:FeatureF10Proposed or something like that 13:00 -!- abadger1999 [n=abadger1 at 136.245.7.181] has joined #fedora-meeting 13:00 < quaid> we're out of time 13:01 < ianweller> ack 13:01 < G> quaid: so do you want me to add the Meeting: namespace now? 13:01 < quaid> namespaces discussion -- to the list! 13:01 < ianweller> right-o. 13:01 < jsmith> +1 13:01 < ianweller> who should turn Help:Wiki organization (or whatever it was, i don't remember) into a policy? 13:01 < quaid> G: I'll reply to you on list giving people One Last Chance to argue, then we'll do it, sound OK? 13:01 * ianweller could, unless someone else wants to 13:01 < quaid> the last item 13:01 < G> quaid: good idea 13:01 < quaid> that we need to make up a skeleton release announcement 13:02 < quaid> anyone here interested in that task? or push request to the list? 13:02 < ianweller> what do you mean 13:02 < ianweller> "skeleton release announcement" 13:02 < quaid> sorry, for Alpha 13:02 < ianweller> oh ok. 13:02 < quaid> request from releng, basically 13:02 < quaid> I'll own that for now, see if I can find another doer :) 13:03 < quaid> all right, closing and getting out of the channel's way 13:03 < ianweller> ok someone's waiting for us to finish so /me moves to end meeting 13:03 < ianweller> yeah. 13:03 < quaid> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From murray.mcallister at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 02:57:19 2008 From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:57:19 +1000 Subject: draft of SVN tutorial Message-ID: <95f1114b0807301957l5c14b95i27366bd6c5c29791@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I started copying some content to make an SVN tutorial: I am hopeless with Mediawiki, so apologies for the layout. I will try to clean it up on the weekend, and include some branching bits. I do not know how this works with fedora hosted projects, so I left the URLs generic and unhelpful. Hope that helps, Murray. --------------------------------------------------------------------- pub 1024D/81B3FDEB 2007-09-19 [expires: 2008-09-18] Key fingerprint = 4ED9 9907 5BF0 4132 2B46 20D1 C0C6 362D 81B3 FDEB Murray McAllister (Fedora Docs Project / mdious) sub 2048g/B04CFA0C 2007-09-19 [expires: 2008-09-18] From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jul 31 08:09:59 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 01:09:59 -0700 Subject: new namespaces for wiki Message-ID: <1217491799.10618.308.camel@calliope.phig.org> We've been discussing adding these namespaces to the wiki: Meeting: Archive: Meeting: is for meeting logs and the like, which often clutter up the main searches. This namespace puts the meeting logs in a separate area, where naming and categories can further identify. E.g.: [[Meeting:Docs_Project_IRC_log_20080730]] Archive: is for old content that we don't want to destroy/replace, but which is cluttering and confusing search results. For example, content related to an old, unsupported release. E.g.: [[Archive:Virt_quick_start_for_Fedora_7]] Any final thoughts or objections? Raise them here or on the original request ticket: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/698 Thanks - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 12:12:07 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:12:07 +0000 Subject: draft of SVN tutorial In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0807301957l5c14b95i27366bd6c5c29791@mail.gmail.com> References: <95f1114b0807301957l5c14b95i27366bd6c5c29791@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1217506327.12970.19.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 12:57 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote: > Hi, > > I started copying some content to make an SVN tutorial: > > > > I am hopeless with Mediawiki, so apologies for the layout. I will try > to clean it up on the weekend, and include some branching bits. > > I do not know how this works with fedora hosted projects, so I left > the URLs generic and unhelpful. Hi Murray, great job. I have some similar type information -- for git -- on the "release-notes" testing project at fedorahosted.org: https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 12:09:54 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:09:54 +0000 Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2008-07-30 IRC log In-Reply-To: <1217463498.10618.265.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1217463498.10618.265.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1217506194.12970.17.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 17:18 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > Pretty version at: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080730 Sorry I wasn't around more -- I got dragged off onto another task. But when I went to: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes The log and summary links don't work. Is there a summary? -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From eric at christensenplace.us Thu Jul 31 14:03:48 2008 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:03:48 -0400 Subject: draft of SVN tutorial In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0807301957l5c14b95i27366bd6c5c29791@mail.gmail.com> References: <95f1114b0807301957l5c14b95i27366bd6c5c29791@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4891C644.30109@christensenplace.us> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Murray, This is great! Thank you! Eric Murray McAllister wrote: | Hi, | | I started copying some content to make an SVN tutorial: | | | | I am hopeless with Mediawiki, so apologies for the layout. I will try | to clean it up on the weekend, and include some branching bits. | | I do not know how this works with fedora hosted projects, so I left | the URLs generic and unhelpful. | | Hope that helps, | | Murray. | | --------------------------------------------------------------------- | pub 1024D/81B3FDEB 2007-09-19 [expires: 2008-09-18] | Key fingerprint = 4ED9 9907 5BF0 4132 2B46 20D1 C0C6 362D 81B3 FDEB | Murray McAllister (Fedora Docs Project / mdious) | sub 2048g/B04CFA0C 2007-09-19 [expires: 2008-09-18] | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiRxjwACgkQL5V8yddJCO19GQCfS1JUbm4NsUzxquYZPdIOm6x0 TPcAn1m/eruXcuc+V9oCoIHKXHKe28rH =bres -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----