From kwade at redhat.com Sun Jun 1 18:44:28 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:44:28 -0700 Subject: wiki gardening tasks page Message-ID: <1212345868.17426.81.camel@calliope.phig.org> We can start populating these pages with various tasks and how-to stuff as we work on the wiki. For example, Ian just did a Template:Move that is useful to leave on pages we think need to be moved/renamed. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WikiGardening/Tasks https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WikiGardening/How_to We may move all this to a different naming scheme later, but for right now we are going to continue to follow the SubProject/Item/Detail scheme from the old wiki. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 10:04:47 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:04:47 +0200 Subject: fedora board page? Message-ID: <64b14b300806040304q6297df2ewe073c6aa8f58ce6b@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I tried to find info about fedora board I had trouble because I can't see it anywhere on fedora wiki page. Is that on purpose? How do you navigate to fedora board page from main wiki page? Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 11:39:24 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 07:39:24 -0400 Subject: fedora board page? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300806040304q6297df2ewe073c6aa8f58ce6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300806040304q6297df2ewe073c6aa8f58ce6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212579564.16859.42.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 12:04 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, > I tried to find info about fedora board I had trouble because I can't > see it anywhere on fedora wiki page. Is that on purpose? How do you > navigate to fedora board page from main wiki page? I don't think you could have tried very hard -- I just typed "board" into the wiki's search engine and the right page comes up immediately. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 13:02:51 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:02:51 +0200 Subject: fedora board page? In-Reply-To: <1212579564.16859.42.camel@victoria> References: <64b14b300806040304q6297df2ewe073c6aa8f58ce6b@mail.gmail.com> <1212579564.16859.42.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <64b14b300806040602h77f0ba6au1a51d44873e90898@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 12:04 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> Hi, >> I tried to find info about fedora board I had trouble because I can't >> see it anywhere on fedora wiki page. Is that on purpose? How do you >> navigate to fedora board page from main wiki page? > > I don't think you could have tried very hard -- I just typed "board" > into the wiki's search engine and the right page comes up immediately. > > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > I did find it easily with the search also, my point is that somebody who doesn't know what to type in the search isn't presented with the link to click and see the board page. Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 15:39:11 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:39:11 +0200 Subject: missing link Message-ID: <64b14b300806040839j76ed5dbfy514f3c599b6ed77b@mail.gmail.com> Hi, on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal#Open_Legal_Issues there is a missing link for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLegalIssues page. As I can't edit that wiki (restrictions?) page can somebody do it? Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 15:46:34 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:46:34 -0400 Subject: fedora board page? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300806040602h77f0ba6au1a51d44873e90898@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300806040304q6297df2ewe073c6aa8f58ce6b@mail.gmail.com> <1212579564.16859.42.camel@victoria> <64b14b300806040602h77f0ba6au1a51d44873e90898@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212594394.24266.70.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 15:02 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 12:04 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > >> Hi, > >> I tried to find info about fedora board I had trouble because I can't > >> see it anywhere on fedora wiki page. Is that on purpose? How do you > >> navigate to fedora board page from main wiki page? > > > > I don't think you could have tried very hard -- I just typed "board" > > into the wiki's search engine and the right page comes up immediately. > > I did find it easily with the search also, my point is that somebody > who doesn't know what to type in the search isn't presented with the > link to click and see the board page. I'm fairly comfortable with that -- who is going to be looking for the Board as their first stop for something Fedora-related, and actually have that be the correct landing spot? -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 16:08:36 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:08:36 +0200 Subject: fedora board page? In-Reply-To: <1212594394.24266.70.camel@victoria> References: <64b14b300806040304q6297df2ewe073c6aa8f58ce6b@mail.gmail.com> <1212579564.16859.42.camel@victoria> <64b14b300806040602h77f0ba6au1a51d44873e90898@mail.gmail.com> <1212594394.24266.70.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <64b14b300806040908k7e108b59scc7aad26813c1468@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 15:02 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> > On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 12:04 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I tried to find info about fedora board I had trouble because I can't >> >> see it anywhere on fedora wiki page. Is that on purpose? How do you >> >> navigate to fedora board page from main wiki page? >> > >> > I don't think you could have tried very hard -- I just typed "board" >> > into the wiki's search engine and the right page comes up immediately. >> >> I did find it easily with the search also, my point is that somebody >> who doesn't know what to type in the search isn't presented with the >> link to click and see the board page. > > I'm fairly comfortable with that -- who is going to be looking for the > Board as their first stop for something Fedora-related, and actually > have that be the correct landing spot? > > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > This seams strange to me. There should be at lease a page explaining fedora project. On main page I see this: Navigation * Home * Get Fedora * Join Fedora but I expect also: * About Fedora On this "About Fedora" page I would expect explanation on how is Fedora organised. What each board does, pages to those boards, members of that boards, explanation about fedora contributers, core developers and ambassadors. Am I wrong to expect this on Fedora Project home page? Why? On the main page there is a link "Learn more" that goes to a page but I see a few issues on that page. Link to "Contributors" links to a statistics page(?) I would expect here a page that explains what means to be a fedora contributor - on that page a link to statistics would be ok. Not even on "Learn more" page is any mention of fedora board or any explanation fedora project organized - I find strange. Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 16:11:41 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:11:41 +0200 Subject: missing link In-Reply-To: <64b14b300806040839j76ed5dbfy514f3c599b6ed77b@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300806040839j76ed5dbfy514f3c599b6ed77b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300806040911g40d5b1eye80bc9b6abe9ac95@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, > on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal#Open_Legal_Issues there is a > missing link for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLegalIssues > page. As I can't edit that wiki (restrictions?) page can somebody do > it? > > Cheers, > Valent. Thank you. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 17:22:55 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:22:55 +0200 Subject: other repositiries howto and guideline? Message-ID: <64b14b300806041022q3fe95b7bmb9ace9c5c6ad8776@mail.gmail.com> Is it legal to write a gudeline for using 3rd party repositories and how to configure them? Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 4 17:57:45 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:57:45 -0700 Subject: fedora board page? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300806040908k7e108b59scc7aad26813c1468@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300806040304q6297df2ewe073c6aa8f58ce6b@mail.gmail.com> <1212579564.16859.42.camel@victoria> <64b14b300806040602h77f0ba6au1a51d44873e90898@mail.gmail.com> <1212594394.24266.70.camel@victoria> <64b14b300806040908k7e108b59scc7aad26813c1468@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212602265.11567.32.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 18:08 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > This seams strange to me. There should be at lease a page explaining > fedora project. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/ShowUs The best way to get changes made is to show the Websites team how it looks. Things you might want to address: * There is a link to "Learn more >>", how does that not suffice? * Does your "About Fedora" deprecate or duplicate one or more links on the page? * Who is the fedoraproject.org front page for? ** Should all audience's questions be answered on the one page? How? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 19:28:42 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:28:42 +0000 Subject: other repositiries howto and guideline? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300806041022q3fe95b7bmb9ace9c5c6ad8776@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300806041022q3fe95b7bmb9ace9c5c6ad8776@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212607722.24266.143.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 19:22 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Is it legal to write a gudeline for using 3rd party repositories and > how to configure them? Not if you want to put it on the Fedora wiki. If you want to put it on a private web space you own, have at it, but do not link to it from the wiki either. You can rely on Google to guide people to your page if it is helpful -- people will find it and naturally elevate or lower it appropriately in the rankings. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org Wed Jun 4 19:39:14 2008 From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:39:14 -0400 Subject: other repositiries howto and guideline? In-Reply-To: <1212607722.24266.143.camel@victoria> References: <64b14b300806041022q3fe95b7bmb9ace9c5c6ad8776@mail.gmail.com> <1212607722.24266.143.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1212608354.3229.32.camel@escapdv01.ESC.local> On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 19:28 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 19:22 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Is it legal to write a gudeline for using 3rd party repositories and > > how to configure them? > > Not if you want to put it on the Fedora wiki. If you want to put it on > a private web space you own, have at it, but do not link to it from the > wiki either. You can rely on Google to guide people to your page if it > is helpful -- people will find it and naturally elevate or lower it > appropriately in the rankings. Paul, does this mean even documenting the technique of adding a 3rd-party repository is not something we want in the Wiki? Not all 3rd-party repositories must consist of non-free or patent-encumbered software, even if that is the norm. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 21:21:46 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:21:46 -0400 Subject: other repositiries howto and guideline? In-Reply-To: <1212608354.3229.32.camel@escapdv01.ESC.local> References: <64b14b300806041022q3fe95b7bmb9ace9c5c6ad8776@mail.gmail.com> <1212607722.24266.143.camel@victoria> <1212608354.3229.32.camel@escapdv01.ESC.local> Message-ID: <1212614506.24266.162.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 15:39 -0400, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 19:28 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 19:22 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > Is it legal to write a gudeline for using 3rd party repositories and > > > how to configure them? > > > > Not if you want to put it on the Fedora wiki. If you want to put it on > > a private web space you own, have at it, but do not link to it from the > > wiki either. You can rely on Google to guide people to your page if it > > is helpful -- people will find it and naturally elevate or lower it > > appropriately in the rankings. > Paul, does this mean even documenting the technique of adding a > 3rd-party repository is not something we want in the Wiki? Not all > 3rd-party repositories must consist of non-free or patent-encumbered > software, even if that is the norm. Ah, I see I overreached the question. You can document how to add a repository to your configuration, but in documenting, you cannot use as an example any repository that contains forbidden bits, nor suggest that this is a way to obtain forbidden bits. Might I suggest the CBI (Cooperative Bug Isolation) project? http://www.cs.wisc.edu/cbi/downloads/ This is a totally FOSS way to contribute to the bettering of free software. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 22:09:28 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:09:28 +0200 Subject: other repositiries howto and guideline? In-Reply-To: <1212607722.24266.143.camel@victoria> References: <64b14b300806041022q3fe95b7bmb9ace9c5c6ad8776@mail.gmail.com> <1212607722.24266.143.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <64b14b300806041509i21312453q2ba42ce421e190fd@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 19:22 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> Is it legal to write a gudeline for using 3rd party repositories and >> how to configure them? > > Not if you want to put it on the Fedora wiki. If you want to put it on > a private web space you own, have at it, but do not link to it from the > wiki either. You can rely on Google to guide people to your page if it > is helpful -- people will find it and naturally elevate or lower it > appropriately in the rankings. > > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug Why? Because of the laws in US? Isn't this similar to issue with posting source code of DeCSS? Isn't that covered by the 1st amendment and the freedom of speech? Cheers, Valent . -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org Wed Jun 4 22:24:29 2008 From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:24:29 -0400 Subject: other repositiries howto and guideline? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300806041509i21312453q2ba42ce421e190fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300806041022q3fe95b7bmb9ace9c5c6ad8776@mail.gmail.com> <1212607722.24266.143.camel@victoria> <64b14b300806041509i21312453q2ba42ce421e190fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212618269.3229.56.camel@escapdv01.ESC.local> On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 00:09 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 19:22 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > >> Is it legal to write a gudeline for using 3rd party repositories and > >> how to configure them? > > > > Not if you want to put it on the Fedora wiki. If you want to put it on > > a private web space you own, have at it, but do not link to it from the > > wiki either. You can rely on Google to guide people to your page if it > > is helpful -- people will find it and naturally elevate or lower it > > appropriately in the rankings. > > > > -- > > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > > Why? Because of the laws in US? Isn't this similar to issue with > posting source code of DeCSS? Isn't that covered by the 1st amendment > and the freedom of speech? > > Cheers, > Valent > . Valent, because the Fedora Project is hosted, both in terms of software as well as an organization in the US, US laws are in effect and must be followed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 22:34:57 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:34:57 +0200 Subject: other repositiries howto and guideline? In-Reply-To: <1212618269.3229.56.camel@escapdv01.ESC.local> References: <64b14b300806041022q3fe95b7bmb9ace9c5c6ad8776@mail.gmail.com> <1212607722.24266.143.camel@victoria> <64b14b300806041509i21312453q2ba42ce421e190fd@mail.gmail.com> <1212618269.3229.56.camel@escapdv01.ESC.local> Message-ID: <64b14b300806041534i5cc69f3awaec6473b08a06f15@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote: > On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 00:09 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 19:22 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: >>> Is it legal to write a gudeline for using 3rd party repositories and >>> how to configure them? >> >> Not if you want to put it on the Fedora wiki. If you want to put it on >> a private web space you own, have at it, but do not link to it from the >> wiki either. You can rely on Google to guide people to your page if it >> is helpful -- people will find it and naturally elevate or lower it >> appropriately in the rankings. >> >> -- >> Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ >> gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 >> http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ >> irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > > Why? Because of the laws in US? Isn't this similar to issue with > posting source code of DeCSS? Isn't that covered by the 1st amendment > and the freedom of speech? > > Cheers, > Valent > . > > Valent, because the Fedora Project is hosted, both in terms of software as > well as an organization in the US, US laws are in effect and must be > followed. I understand that, and I understand that I can't expect fedora to have mp3 decoder on their hosted servers but I thought you have freedom of speech, no? Weren't there some court cases that said that you can write anything? Is it illegal to put this on the fedora wiki: "rpm -ivh http://rpm.livna.org/livna-release-9.rpm" or it I leave that line out is this illegal: "yum install -y gstreamer-plugins-ugly gstreamer-plugins-bad" Why? Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic From eric at christensenplace.us Wed Jun 4 23:08:12 2008 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:08:12 -0400 Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2008-06-04 Summary Message-ID: <4847205C.1020600@christensenplace.us> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Attendees: - ----------- Paul Frields (stickster) Eric Christensen (Sparks) Jared Smith (jsmith) Bart Couvreur (couf) Karsten Wade (quaid) Summary: - --------- * FOLLOW UP ON CHANGES IN STEERING COMMITTEE ~ - There was little discussion on the issue. ~ - All present seemed to think the changes from last week were good. * RELEASE NOTES 9.0.2-1 ~ - https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00030.html ~ - Murray McAllister (mdious) almost completed this task. ~ - Paul says that it still needs RPM generation, imported to package CVS, built, and then pushed. Paul will handle. * WIKI GARDENING ~ - Discussion on namespaces versus categories. ~ - Within the Docs Project we should use one of three categories on everything that we generate: "DocsProject", "Documentation", and "Draft Documentation". Further instructions will be posted later on the Help:WikiStructure. * SECURITY GUIDE ~ - Discussion on whether or not to move the Security Guide from the wiki to CVS. It was decided to keep it in the wiki as it is still going through development. ~ - Look for this to be pushed over for F10 Alpha. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhHIFYACgkQL5V8yddJCO0hkACfUBf9Ux6HRT4rP+Sen318JJEY 9woAnias59bRz3TiZyxg92dRN0v1Rgf3 =tK9v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From eric at christensenplace.us Wed Jun 4 23:08:25 2008 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:08:25 -0400 Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2008-06-04 IRC log Message-ID: <48472069.9030906@christensenplace.us> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 15:02 -!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs meeting -- 4 June 2008, 1900 UTC 15:02 * couf here 15:03 * stickster here 15:04 * quaid is here 15:04 < quaid> distraction jackson 15:05 -!- kital [n=Joerg_Si at fedora/kital] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05 * Sparks is here 15:06 < quaid> ok then 15:06 * Sparks just got home 15:06 -!- dwmw2 is now known as dwmw2_gone 15:06 * stickster looks for his relnotes howto 15:07 < quaid> 15:07 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting 15:08 -!- jsmith-teaching [n=njsmith at 72.21.36.138] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:08 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo stuff -- Follow-up on leadership discussion http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00126.html 15:08 < stickster> Holy moley, look at that wiki scream 15:08 * jsmith-teaching is half-watching while teaching 15:09 -!- kital [n=Joerg_Si at fedora/kital] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:09 < quaid> so, any questions ?? 15:10 -!- wolfy [n=lonewolf at fedora/wolfy] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:10 < stickster> streamlining == good for this subproject. 15:10 < Sparks> +1 15:12 -!- cyberpear [n=cyberpea at pool-71-178-37-235.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:12 < stickster> quaid: So is this really a proposal of "all for one, one for all" 15:12 < stickster> ? 15:12 < quaid> um, what? 15:12 < quaid> three musketeers? 15:12 < stickster> heh 15:12 < stickster> Maybe eighteen musketeers if we're lucky! 15:12 < quaid> ok,sure 15:12 -!- aks [n=aks at 116.90.239.2] has quit [""leaving""] 15:12 < couf> +1 to the proposal 15:14 < couf> it feels like this is how it should happen, not to strict but still have something in place 15:15 -!- wolfy [n=lonewolf at fedora/wolfy] has left #fedora-meeting ["A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory."] 15:16 -!- cyberpear_afk [n=cyberpea at pool-71-178-37-235.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16 -!- cyberpear_ [n=cp at pool-71-178-37-235.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16 -!- RodrigoPadula [n=RodrigoP at 201008184023.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:18 -!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_away 15:18 < stickster> Sorry, phone call took me away, back now. 15:18 * quaid has a visitor passing through, sorry 15:18 < quaid> ok, so no discussion on that topic is OK 15:18 < stickster> yeah, I think no one has a problem with it. 15:18 -!- cyberpear_ [n=cp at pool-71-178-37-235.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:18 < quaid> since some pplweren't here last week, just making sure we gave room to discuss 15:20 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is a meetin' -- release notes 9.0.2-1 https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00030.html 15:20 < stickster> So mdious did the POT fixin' and push for this 15:20 < quaid> ok 15:20 < quaid> so task is done? 15:20 < quaid> anything more on that topic? 15:21 < stickster> Not quite 15:21 -!- GeroldKa [n=GeroldKa at fedora/geroldka] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:21 < couf> just needs rpm creation and publishing 15:21 < stickster> Needs an SRPM rolled and imported to package CVS 15:21 < stickster> and a build and push 15:21 < stickster> I can do that, but as part of the process I want to document what I'm doing and put that in a wiki page 15:21 < stickster> Because someone else will be doing it in Fedora 10. 15:22 < stickster> I thought I had done at least half of it already, but I can't seem to find the page on the current wiki :-\ 15:24 -!- fab__ [n=fab at 84-75-175-46.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:24 < couf> I can handle publishing to docs.fp.o 15:24 < stickster> Thanks couf 15:24 -!- fab__ [n=fab at 84-75-175-46.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24 -!- fabian_a [n=fab at 84-75-175-46.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:24 -!- gregdek [n=gdk at nat/redhat/x-d28163901b75289b] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24 < couf> move on? 15:26 < stickster> I'm ok with that... this is "in progress" 15:27 -!- rdieter_away is now known as rdieter 15:27 -!- couf changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is a meetin' -- Wiki gardening redux 15:27 < quaid> thx 15:27 * quaid sends his visitor off :) 15:28 < quaid> btw, we have some new contributors who have been really helping clean up and progress the new wiki 15:28 -!- fugolini [n=francesc at host150-206-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:28 < quaid> so far I've definitely noticed cyberpear_, anubis, and kylev doing a lot 15:28 < couf> awesome 15:29 < quaid> also some Ambassadors have been cleaning up those pages, etc. 15:29 < stickster> I saw cyberpear come by here, I thought 15:29 < quaid> I don't think this is coincidentaly 15:29 < quaid> popularity and ease of mediawiki does help 15:29 < Sparks> +1 15:29 < quaid> and smokin' speed! 15:29 < stickster> Hopefully the new wiki's much faster response time and consistent "up-ness" is a big help 15:29 < stickster> ha, *jinx 15:29 < stickster> And mmcgrath tells me this isn't the end state, it's just "good enough" for right now -- there will be additional tuning later. 15:29 < quaid> word 15:30 < stickster> All hail Fedora Infrastructure!!! 15:31 < quaid> so, we continued to discuss Namespaces and Categories after last week's meeting 15:31 < quaid> and so far, Namespaces are good for e.g. QA: with 1000 test plans 15:31 < quaid> when you want to separate content from the default search space, basically. 15:31 < quaid> cats on the other hand our near and dear friends 15:31 < couf> I've been wondering if this could be a solution for wiki-L10N as well 15:31 < quaid> with all docs on the flat namespace wiki/Doc_Name 15:31 < couf> having :.... 15:31 < quaid> couf: "they say" the solution is in parallel wiki installs,apparently 15:31 < quaid> couf: but I have seen that proposed in the meta.mediawiki.org pages about namespace, as a l10n solution 15:31 < couf> yeah, I know, but as a current solution 15:31 < couf> really? 15:33 < stickster> Hm, weird 15:33 < quaid> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace#Prefixes_in_various_languages 15:33 < quaid> sorry, not that one 15:33 < quaid> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace#Custom_namespaces 15:33 < quaid> that one 15:34 < couf> ah interesting 15:34 < quaid> oh, weird, I read that wrong i guess 15:35 < quaid> Sparks: did you have any follow-up from last week on categories, orphan pages, or better structure for 15:35 < quaid> DocsProject? 15:35 < quaid> and my general question ... 15:35 < quaid> where should we get all this naming and categorizing written down? 15:35 < quaid> Help: 15:35 < quaid> Help:Editing or a ne wpage? 15:35 < stickster> hm. 15:35 < Sparks> Hmmm 15:36 < Sparks> I was just thinking about that... 15:36 < couf> Help:WikiStructure 15:36 < Sparks> What if... 15:36 < couf> linked from Help:Editing 15:37 < Sparks> we have multiple "standardized" categories and provide links to those cats from the DocsProject page 15:37 < Sparks> The cats I would use would be "Documentation" "Draft Documentation" 15:37 < Sparks> Any others? 15:37 < Sparks> Of course any large guide could have a cat to itself to link all the pages together 15:37 < Sparks> I think it should be off a Help: page and linked from the Docs Project page 15:38 < Sparks> eof 15:39 < quaid> +1 15:39 < quaid> I actually put something in [[Category:DocumentationDraft]] this week :) 15:39 < Sparks> That works too 15:39 < quaid> the Bodhi_Guide iirc 15:39 < Sparks> as long as it makes sense to the end user 15:39 < quaid> hmm 15:39 < quaid> not too late to fix that 15:39 < Sparks> True 15:39 < quaid> any vote on the order here? 15:39 < quaid> yours does read more naturally 15:39 < Sparks> We can do that in MW now... 15:41 < Sparks> And then there is the orphan pages... but I'll let everyone comment before we move on 15:41 < quaid> any opinions? 15:42 < Sparks> any other categories that would be needed? 15:43 < couf> are we talking in general for the whole wiki, or just for docs? 15:43 -!- petreu [n=peter at fedora/Standby] has quit ["( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"] 15:43 < Sparks> couf: Just for docs 15:43 < Sparks> couf: There will probably be hundreds of cats wiki wide 15:43 < couf> okay, so we'll use these 3 them: DocsProject Documentation and Draft Documentation 15:43 < couf> ? 15:43 < quaid> yeah 15:43 < quaid> Draft_Documentation 15:43 < quaid> cool 15:43 < Sparks> Unless anyone can think of any others that would be needed 15:43 -!- jsmith-teaching is now known as jsmith 15:44 < quaid> not now, we'll grow as we go if needed 15:45 < couf> we should put a link to Documenation from docs.fp.o 15:45 < quaid> so oprhans ... 15:45 < quaid> couf: +1 15:45 < Sparks> quaid: the cats can have spaces... 15:45 < quaid> Sparks: aye +1 spaces 15:45 < Sparks> orphans 15:45 < Sparks> Hmmm... 15:45 < Sparks> So that is a tricky subject. 15:45 < Sparks> I think everything in the wiki should be linked to a higher project. 15:45 < quaid> ok, I moved it to Category:Draft Documentation 15:45 < Sparks> But, as you stated last week, what if you have a page that is linked to outside the wiki 15:45 < quaid> right, it can only be one of the ways to value a page 15:46 * quaid was denied his move :( 15:47 < quaid> can't move a Special: namespace item or something 15:47 < Sparks> Hmmm 15:47 < Sparks> So, I'm going to try to look at the orphans this afternoon and see if some of them can be moved to a better home. 15:49 < quaid> sure, I bet we can do a lot with that 15:49 < Sparks> We might be missing something and not know it. 15:49 < Sparks> I know I found quite a bit of information that I'd like to pull into the security guide 15:49 < quaid> ok 15:50 < quaid> so, we're going to put *all* this wiki structure stuff in 15:50 -!- tibbs [n=tibbs at fedora/tibbs] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 15:50 < quaid> Help:WikiStructure 15:51 < quaid> ? 15:51 < quaid> link it from Help:Editing 15:51 < quaid> and maybe announce that a bit 15:51 < quaid> anyone feel like they can take on the first stab at Help:WikiStructure? 15:51 -!- jsmith is now known as jsmith-away 15:51 * Sparks can start on it 15:51 < quaid> that would be great, thx 15:51 * quaid loves how you can watch a page that doesn't exist yet 15:51 < Sparks> Ha! 15:51 < quaid> any more on this topic? 15:53 < quaid> ok then 15:53 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo -- content to handle 15:53 < quaid> so last week Sparks said the Security Guide is ready to publish 15:53 < Sparks> ? 15:53 < quaid> sorry, did I get that wrong? 15:53 < Sparks> Ummm... no... but.... 15:53 < quaid> "part of it" 15:53 < Sparks> A few weeks ago I thought we diminished the use of the CVS over keeping things in the wiki. 15:55 < Sparks> Is that still true or are we going to be pushing stuff over to CVS? 15:55 < quaid> well, we decided two things:L 15:55 < quaid> 1. If it is ready for DocBook XML, it needs a fedorahosted.org space 15:55 < quaid> 2. It is OK to have some content that doesn't leave the wiki, or stays in the wiki and leaves later 15:55 < quaid> because if we could just figure out how to l10n the wiki with Transifex, we remove a large reason for XML 15:55 < quaid> my vote on the SEc Guide is 15:55 < quaid> it could go to XML, but that's a lot of work for something that we aren't necc. going to invite translations to since it is going to evovle rapidly 15:55 < quaid> so why not have it in the wiki now, grow it, and see where it is as we get to F10 15:57 < couf> +1 15:57 < Sparks> +1 15:57 < quaid> maybe plan on having a full-guide alpha release with F10 Alpha 15:57 < quaid> ok, now how that looks, with draft and non-draft content ... 15:57 < quaid> maybe we have a {{draft}} template at the top of all draft pages 15:57 < quaid> and not worry about it, because it will have some use as we proceed. 15:59 -!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_away 15:59 < Sparks> I think we already do 15:59 < Sparks> I got a change on one of my pages that looked like that 15:59 < quaid> yep 15:59 < quaid> ok, we're out of time! 15:59 -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk 15:59 * spevack boots quaid :) 15:59 -!- J5 [n=quintice at nat/redhat-us/x-01c34685460acd21] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:59 < quaid> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhHIGYACgkQL5V8yddJCO35iQCeOuVo/Ct3/Pu18D2hxGZvLWUK c8EAn1DoQe7brB4qPmc1KcSy1J3fcfid =e0zR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From murray.mcallister at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 05:27:24 2008 From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:27:24 +1000 Subject: Using the xmlbeats script for other Wikis Message-ID: <95f1114b0806042227o63b0caebp1683df3aff7945e8@mail.gmail.com> Hai! Is it possible to use the "release-notes-devel/release-notes/xmlbeats/beatconvert" and "release-notes-devel/release-notes/xmlbeats/xmlbeats" scripts on other Wikis, say, to convert from Wiki to DocBook when such a Wiki does not already have these features? Thanks for any advice, Murray. --------------------------------------------------------------------- pub 1024D/81B3FDEB 2007-09-19 [expires: 2008-09-18] Key fingerprint = 4ED9 9907 5BF0 4132 2B46 20D1 C0C6 362D 81B3 FDEB Murray McAllister (Fedora Docs Project / mdious) sub 2048g/B04CFA0C 2007-09-19 [expires: 2008-09-18] From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 12:42:10 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 12:42:10 +0000 Subject: other repositiries howto and guideline? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300806041534i5cc69f3awaec6473b08a06f15@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300806041022q3fe95b7bmb9ace9c5c6ad8776@mail.gmail.com> <1212607722.24266.143.camel@victoria> <64b14b300806041509i21312453q2ba42ce421e190fd@mail.gmail.com> <1212618269.3229.56.camel@escapdv01.ESC.local> <64b14b300806041534i5cc69f3awaec6473b08a06f15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212669730.8253.12.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 00:34 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Basil Mohamed Gohar > wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 00:09 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 19:22 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > >>> Is it legal to write a gudeline for using 3rd party repositories and > >>> how to configure them? > >> > >> Not if you want to put it on the Fedora wiki. If you want to put it on > >> a private web space you own, have at it, but do not link to it from the > >> wiki either. You can rely on Google to guide people to your page if it > >> is helpful -- people will find it and naturally elevate or lower it > >> appropriately in the rankings. > >> > >> -- > >> Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > >> gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > >> http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > >> irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > > > > > Why? Because of the laws in US? Isn't this similar to issue with > > posting source code of DeCSS? Isn't that covered by the 1st amendment > > and the freedom of speech? > > > > Cheers, > > Valent > > . > > > > Valent, because the Fedora Project is hosted, both in terms of software as > > well as an organization in the US, US laws are in effect and must be > > followed. > > I understand that, and I understand that I can't expect fedora to have > mp3 decoder on their hosted servers but I thought you have freedom of > speech, no? Weren't there some court cases that said that you can > write anything? Is it illegal to put this on the fedora wiki: > > > "rpm -ivh http://rpm.livna.org/livna-release-9.rpm" > > or it I leave that line out is this illegal: > > "yum install -y gstreamer-plugins-ugly gstreamer-plugins-bad" > > Why? This is not about freedom of speech, it's about the DMCA, patent encumbered code, and a whole host of other issues, none of which we need to go into *yet again* on this particular list. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems Please read that page. Read every page to which it links. If you still have questions, please take them to fedora-legal-list. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 13:15:15 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:15:15 -0400 Subject: Using the xmlbeats script for other Wikis In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0806042227o63b0caebp1683df3aff7945e8@mail.gmail.com> References: <95f1114b0806042227o63b0caebp1683df3aff7945e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212671715.8253.18.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 15:27 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote: > Hai! > > Is it possible to use the > "release-notes-devel/release-notes/xmlbeats/beatconvert" and > "release-notes-devel/release-notes/xmlbeats/xmlbeats" scripts on other > Wikis, say, to convert from Wiki to DocBook when such a Wiki does not > already have these features? Yeah, that script worked well with Moin because there you could send a HTTP request with "?action=render&mimetype=xml/docbook" appended, and get a roughly workable DocBook XML back. I don't think MediaWiki has this function currently. However, the official MediaWiki shows some information about available options: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/DocBook_XML_export This is something that you may want to get with Mike McGrath's crew on, because they are aware that we need this type of functionality. Getting the wiki up and running was a priority, and now a DocBook export function is in the list of ToDo's, IIRC. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jun 5 13:29:07 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 06:29:07 -0700 Subject: Using the xmlbeats script for other Wikis In-Reply-To: <1212671715.8253.18.camel@victoria> References: <95f1114b0806042227o63b0caebp1683df3aff7945e8@mail.gmail.com> <1212671715.8253.18.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1212672547.11567.79.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:15 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > This is something that you may want to get with Mike McGrath's crew on, > because they are aware that we need this type of functionality. Getting > the wiki up and running was a priority, and now a DocBook export > function is in the list of ToDo's, IIRC. Mike was working on this conversion script before the migration. Last I saw it, the output was actually better than the Moin output because, you know, Mike worked with us on a few things. However, I think it's a stand-alone script and requires some sysadmin access to run. The next step is to find a way to turn it in to a web app with a nice REST URL to generate the various output needs. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Jun 6 05:20:53 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:20:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Using the xmlbeats script for other Wikis In-Reply-To: <1212672547.11567.79.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <95f1114b0806042227o63b0caebp1683df3aff7945e8@mail.gmail.com> <1212671715.8253.18.camel@victoria> <1212672547.11567.79.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:15 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > This is something that you may want to get with Mike McGrath's crew on, > > because they are aware that we need this type of functionality. Getting > > the wiki up and running was a priority, and now a DocBook export > > function is in the list of ToDo's, IIRC. > > Mike was working on this conversion script before the migration. Last I > saw it, the output was actually better than the Moin output because, you > know, Mike worked with us on a few things. > > However, I think it's a stand-alone script and requires some sysadmin > access to run. The next step is to find a way to turn it in to a web > app with a nice REST URL to generate the various output needs. > A failry working version of the script is ready but it needs a few lines of polish. Its actually a fork of another script (I hate forking but it allowed us to specalize it to our needs and IIRC upstream hasn't released a version since late 2006 :). If anyone on the list has any perl experience and would be interested in helping with this it'd be great to have multiple people working on this script for docs. -Mike From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 15:47:47 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:47:47 -0400 Subject: Using the xmlbeats script for other Wikis In-Reply-To: References: <95f1114b0806042227o63b0caebp1683df3aff7945e8@mail.gmail.com> <1212671715.8253.18.camel@victoria> <1212672547.11567.79.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1212767267.3407.97.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 00:20 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:15 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > > This is something that you may want to get with Mike McGrath's crew on, > > > because they are aware that we need this type of functionality. Getting > > > the wiki up and running was a priority, and now a DocBook export > > > function is in the list of ToDo's, IIRC. > > > > Mike was working on this conversion script before the migration. Last I > > saw it, the output was actually better than the Moin output because, you > > know, Mike worked with us on a few things. > > > > However, I think it's a stand-alone script and requires some sysadmin > > access to run. The next step is to find a way to turn it in to a web > > app with a nice REST URL to generate the various output needs. > > > > A failry working version of the script is ready but it needs a few lines > of polish. Its actually a fork of another script (I hate forking but it > allowed us to specalize it to our needs and IIRC upstream hasn't released > a version since late 2006 :). > > If anyone on the list has any perl experience and would be interested in > helping with this it'd be great to have multiple people working on this > script for docs. I know Jeff Fearn's listening in.... :-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From balajig81 at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 16:07:46 2008 From: balajig81 at gmail.com (G) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:37:46 +0530 Subject: Moving User Wiki Pages to the new wiki - Phase II Message-ID: <6dd1343e0806060907i547089a7o19c934ede8f23868@mail.gmail.com> Hi This is the second phase of moving the user wiki pages to the new wiki. The Ambassadors in the following locations could move their user wiki pages to the new wiki. The following is the list : * Central America * Central Asia * Eastern Asia * Australia and New Zealand There are a few IDs for which i couldnt find the FASIDs hence i request the respective ambassadors to update their pages and the other ambassadors could just verify their IDs and move their pages too. I would notify other people once i move the next set :) Thanks for your co-operation . Cheers, Balaji From bugzilla at redhat.com Fri Jun 6 18:15:59 2008 From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:15:59 -0400 Subject: [Bug 450331] New: lack of documentation on restoring from bare-metal (UUID problem) Message-ID: Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional comments should be made in the comments box of this bug report. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=450331 Summary: lack of documentation on restoring from bare-metal (UUID problem) Product: Fedora Documentation Version: devel Platform: All OS/Version: Linux Status: NEW Severity: low Priority: low Component: docs-requests AssignedTo: kwade at redhat.com ReportedBy: czar at acm.org QAContact: stickster at gmail.com CC: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com Description of problem: ref: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=449299 There is a lack of documentation on restoring a system from bare metal. I have found (see reference) that restore the root ("/") is not as simple as as just executing the restore command when running in rescue mode. With the current emphasis being place on use of UUIDs in both Fedora and RHEL, the whole business of UUIDs need to be better documented. Version-Release number of selected component (if applicable): Fedora 9 -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is. From herlo1 at gmail.com Sat Jun 7 16:54:37 2008 From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:54:37 -0600 Subject: Screencasts - Cheese Message-ID: Hi all, So I took a couple hours last night/this morning to create a screen cast of cheese and its usage. I think its pretty good. http://herlo.fedorapeople.org/screencasts/cheese-final.ogg (9.4MB) ~4.75minutes The only issue I saw with istanbul, was that when I'd sometimes launch an application (cheese, or epiphany to show the cheese website) the audio would get garbled a little or a lot during the presentation. I am not sure if this is really a bug, or some sort of config error on my part. Cheers, Clint -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wildman at pobox.com Wed Jun 11 05:31:52 2008 From: wildman at pobox.com (Art Wildman) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:31:52 -0400 Subject: Screencasts - Cheese In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <484F6348.9070103@pobox.com> Clint Savage wrote: > Hi all, > > So I took a couple hours last night/this morning to create a screen > cast of cheese and its usage. I think its pretty good. > > http://herlo.fedorapeople.org/screencasts/cheese-final.ogg (9.4MB) > ~4.75minutes > > The only issue I saw with istanbul, was that when I'd sometimes launch > an application (cheese, or epiphany to show the cheese website) the > audio would get garbled a little or a lot during the presentation. I > am not sure if this is really a bug, or some sort of config error on > my part. > Very Cool & well done, though I thought you should raise your webcam to look down on you some if possible. The audio processing is likely done via shared memory/cpu on the motherboard, so when you launch other apps it affects the encoding process (top). If there were dedicated audio/video processing hardware or you ran istanbul with a lower 'nice' priority and the other apps with a higher 'nice' value. This may not work for I/O bound processes, but it's worth a try. You may have to create some custom launcher scripts to limit any interference when running larger apps like a browser. More on nice here - http://www.linux.com/articles/58638 ...Also a light weight desktop like XFce.org may help, when doing demos. If it's I/O bound, writing the output.ogg to a different drive using a separate controller/channel may help. - Cheers, Art From ivazqueznet at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 12:37:41 2008 From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 08:37:41 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Fedora 9 Installation Guide] Message-ID: <1213187861.17913.52.camel@ignacio.lan> For your consideration. -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: Constantin Cabiniuc > To: webmaster at fedoraproject.org > Subject: Fedora 9 Installation Guide > Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:31:56 +0300 > > Hello, > > Could you please provide a PDF version of "Fedora 9 Installation > Guide" ? I downloaded the offline version but a PDF would help me a > lot if I want to go print it at a local printing service. A PDF is one > of the best solutions to go for portability. I just take the file, > give it to them, and print it in a few seconds. Those offlines are > going to give them some headakes :) > > Thank You, > Constantin Cabiniuc -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 11 15:28:57 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 08:28:57 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Fedora 9 Installation Guide] Message-ID: <1213198137.3866.117.camel@calliope.phig.org> Anyone interested in one or all of the following: 1. Converting the IG to use Publican 2. Making a PDF from it 3. Rebuilding the HTML 4. Posting the results on docs.fedoraproject.org I'm happy to do #4, but don't have time right now for the others. This regular request for PDFs for Fedora Docs would be great to answer in the affirmative for a change. - Karsten -------- Forwarded Message -------- Hello, Could you please provide a PDF version of "Fedora 9 Installation Guide" ? I downloaded the offline version but a PDF would help me a lot if I want to go print it at a local printing service. A PDF is one of the best solutions to go for portability. I just take the file, give it to them, and print it in a few seconds. Those offlines are going to give them some headakes :) -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 11 15:32:49 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 08:32:49 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Fedora 9 Installation Guide] In-Reply-To: <1213187861.17913.52.camel@ignacio.lan> References: <1213187861.17913.52.camel@ignacio.lan> Message-ID: <1213198369.3866.125.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-06-11 at 08:37 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote: > For your consideration. FYI for those new to Docs, etc. Fedora 9 is the first release where we could build a working PDF from tools entirely in Fedora, which is why we haven't had them on docs.fp.org before. There are multiple ways to accomplish this, but considering the flavor of the times, Publican looks like the best way to proceed in the short term. > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > From: Constantin Cabiniuc > > To: webmaster at fedoraproject.org > > Subject: Fedora 9 Installation Guide > > Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:31:56 +0300 > > > > Hello, > > > > Could you please provide a PDF version of "Fedora 9 Installation > > Guide" ? I downloaded the offline version but a PDF would help me a > > lot if I want to go print it at a local printing service. A PDF is one > > of the best solutions to go for portability. I just take the file, > > give it to them, and print it in a few seconds. Those offlines are > > going to give them some headakes :) > > > > Thank You, > > Constantin Cabiniuc > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From balajig81 at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 15:37:58 2008 From: balajig81 at gmail.com (G) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 21:07:58 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: Fedora 9 Installation Guide] In-Reply-To: <1213198137.3866.117.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1213198137.3866.117.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <6dd1343e0806110837j7fb9721crad0253696821e6df@mail.gmail.com> Hi > Anyone interested in one or all of the following: > > 1. Converting the IG to use Publican > 2. Making a PDF from it > 3. Rebuilding the HTML > 4. Posting the results on docs.fedoraproject.org I am interested and ready to do it but i ve not worked on Docbook so if someone could mentor me on this i am ready to do it :). Cheers, Balaji On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > Anyone interested in one or all of the following: > > 1. Converting the IG to use Publican > 2. Making a PDF from it > 3. Rebuilding the HTML > 4. Posting the results on docs.fedoraproject.org > > I'm happy to do #4, but don't have time right now for the others. > > This regular request for PDFs for Fedora Docs would be great to answer > in the affirmative for a change. > > - Karsten > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > Hello, > > Could you please provide a PDF version of "Fedora 9 Installation > Guide" ? I downloaded the offline version but a PDF would help me a lot > if I want to go print it at a local printing service. A PDF is one of > the best solutions to go for portability. I just take the file, give it > to them, and print it in a few seconds. Those offlines are going to give > them some headakes :) > > -- > Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. > Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com > Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org > gpg key : AD0E0C41 > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net Wed Jun 11 20:36:09 2008 From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:36:09 -0400 Subject: FDSco Meeting 2008-06-11 IRC log Message-ID: <1213216569.4849.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> 20:13:25 20:13:33 20:13:38 JaredSmith here 20:14:10 BartCouvreur at the table 20:14:31 * jsmith has changed the topic to: FDSCo Meeting -- Get your docs on! 20:15:24 KarstenWade arriveth 20:15:26 PaulWFrields is here in spirit 20:15:31 jit, too 20:15:37 quaid: :-) 20:15:50 OK... If nobody else is here, let's start w/ the agenda 20:15:55 rock on 20:15:56 (and no, there is no agenda) 20:16:03 :D 20:16:07 Let's go off of last week's agenda, then 20:16:09 ok, where did we leave last week? 20:16:11 okay, ? :) 20:16:21 * jsmith has changed the topic to: FDSCo Meeting -- Leadership Changes 20:16:22 har! 20:16:32 couf: hey, don't mess with my search terms! 20:16:33 ;-D 20:16:46 Any more comments with regards to leadership changes? 20:16:48 so I got an email on the governance out, no cries in protest 20:16:58 (total silence, actually) 20:17:04 Shall we elect stickster our puppet dictator for life while he's not looking? 20:17:11 actually, does this needs to go to the Board, quaid board-member? 20:17:18 jsmith: +1 20:17:27 couf: nope, and I'll tell ya why 20:17:39 quaid: +1, "nope." 20:17:40 the Board doesn't (or will remove?) specifics about governance like that 20:17:57 all righty :) 20:17:57 Fair enough... 20:17:59 a subProj needs to have it's own governance control 20:18:10 ... with lack of complain to quaid's email, I say we make it so 20:18:12 so we can hold elections and appoint to fill gaps, just self-appoint, whatever 20:18:19 expand/contract to meet the needs as we go 20:18:29 * jmtaylor (n=jason at fedora/jmtaylor) has joined #fedora-meeting 20:18:33 ratify new lack of leaders? awesome 20:18:36 * quaid kids 20:18:44 heh, cool :) 20:18:46 quaid: Exactly! All in favor, raise your left toe! 20:19:21 * quaid raises his left toe 20:19:28 quaid: Leaders are people with experience. Experience is what you get *after* you need it. Hence, we need to throw problems at people to turn them into leaders. 20:19:29 everyone at this cafe is looking at me strangely now 20:19:39 quaid: I'll bet :-) 20:19:58 jsmith: hammer, meet nail 20:20:13 OK, anything else to discuss before moving on to the next topic at hand? 20:20:47 * jsmith has changed the topic to: FDSCo Meeting -- Release Notes 20:20:55 OK, where do we stand on the release notes? 20:21:05 I was out last week (teaching), so I'm not sure where we stand 20:21:07 you know 20:21:09 that was done last week 20:21:18 I think the last items on the agenda were not all the way touched 20:21:23 Gotcha :-) 20:21:37 * quaid looks at summary 20:21:41 And I made no progress since then on this item, truth be told :-( 20:21:44 I'm doing this blind ;-) 20:21:55 http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-June/msg00016.html 20:21:56 * couf neither 20:22:10 we got as far as Sec Guide staying in the wiki until further notice 20:22:14 and doing it as a wiki-based doc for now 20:22:26 Right... 20:23:00 OK... do we need to cover Wiki Gardening again, or move on to "Active content"? 20:23:02 * quaid has changed the topic to: FDSCo is talking about ... Active content (publish, edit, write) 20:23:12 sorry :) 20:23:23 I will try to make some time over the next week or so to work on the GIG 20:23:27 (getting involved guide) 20:23:31 * herlo is actually here 20:23:33 please help make [[Help:Wiki Structure]] make sense, is all 20:23:38 yes, it's GIG time 20:23:42 I need to do some more writing to keep my sanity 20:23:48 how about breaking it into beats? (of sort) 20:23:49 herlo: Feel free to join in 20:23:55 quaid: Sure... not a bad idea 20:23:58 jsmith: want some help on that this weekend?? 20:24:12 like, I wanted to work on the pure develper part (getting hosted space, etc.) 20:24:15 * herlo has some time on Saturday not taken up yet :) 20:24:17 and now want to add an ISV component 20:24:38 ok, I'm going to edit the Summary to assign folks to spots 20:24:52 we can move this later 20:24:59 quaid: I'd be happy to take some of the other parts... let me find a spot or two, and I'll get back to you offline 20:25:07 herlo: Can't over the weekend... -ENOTIME 20:25:13 * spot looks up 20:25:32 lol 20:26:00 that must happen as often as people expanding q:(uestion) in to quaid 20:26:02 well, I guess I'll do what I can and give you feedback 20:26:38 OK... how 'bout the User Guide... anybody actively writing content for it? 20:26:43 Now's the time to step up! 20:27:16 well, I've decided to contribute with screencasts 20:27:19 iirc it's very close to ready for F9 20:27:22 the idea was to really push the GIG first, iirc 20:27:26 and prioritized behind the IG 20:27:30 GIG, yeah 20:27:45 OK... 20:27:47 * AndreasR (n=medic at port-92-194-2-221.dynamic.qsc.de) has joined #fedora-meeting 20:28:09 how much stuff is left on the User Guide? I've been *so* out of hte loop lately... 20:28:23 herlo: We all have :-) 20:28:28 there is a page ... 20:28:43 or the front page of the draft has status? 20:29:19 Yeah, it has edit status, which gives a fairly good idea of what's done and what's not 20:29:32 * herlo is on that page now https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide 20:30:08 I'm updating my sections to DONE 20:30:12 * jsmith has changed the topic to: FDSCo is talking about ... Cleaning up project lists 20:30:16 looks like the move didn't get those changes 20:30:34 OK... so I'm not sure what this means... 20:30:51 quaid: Care to enlighten us on what you mean by "Cleaning up project lists"? 20:30:55 Mailing lists? 20:30:58 Lists of documents? 20:30:59 sparks ? 20:31:04 I think that was his item 20:31:06 * harrison1 is now known as harrisony 20:31:10 Hmmmmn... 20:31:18 All in favor of cleaning them up?!? 20:31:34 um 20:31:35 ooh, wait.. This is for F9, and it doesn't have Pup and Pirut, but PackageKit. I see... 20:31:57 I vote we DEFER the discussion of project lists cleanup until next week 20:32:35 ding on sparks, he didn't explain his agenda additions in the changelog :( 20:32:46 * jsmith has changed the topic to: FDSCo is talking about ... All other business 20:33:14 or wait ... who put that on the agenda? 20:33:19 So, I wont be at FUDCon, so somebody's gotta do a talk on the Docs Project (and maybe introduce people to Wiki and/or DocBook) 20:33:32 quaid: wasn't me 20:33:33 * jnettlet has quit ("Ex-Chat") 20:33:53 quaid: Wasn't me 20:34:16 yeah I won't be at FUDCon too, but might be able to do one for the FUDCon in Praghue 20:34:26 ah 20:34:34 this is an item that predates the migration 20:34:38 ok, fudcon talk 20:34:49 doesn't paul have that on the barcamp list? 20:34:53 I hope so! 20:35:15 there ya go 20:35:47 Yeah, he does 20:35:59 Looks like he copied it from our previous presentation 20:36:04 ok, if he needs help, I'll do it, as long as I'm not conflicted with another commitment 20:36:09 Cool... 20:36:18 * jsmith wishes he had an extra week this month to be able to sneak up to Boston 20:37:03 Any other topics that need to be discussed? 20:37:10 hmm 20:37:23 been some chat on f-devel-l about the wiki 20:37:29 appreciate that we were alerted and such 20:37:32 I have one, but I'm afraid it'll make the meeting drag on too long, and I'd really like stickster to be here for it, so I'll defer 20:37:38 ok 20:37:40 Oh? 20:37:53 just people trying to figure out the stuff we should have told them already :) 20:38:05 so we need to work on more communication and help pages 20:38:11 Gotcha 20:38:16 quaid: roger the fudcon session. 20:38:28 main thing is getting Help:Wiki Structure so it tells people how to make new pages and spaces 20:39:09 quaid: Can you help keep an eye on that during the BarCamp scheduling time in the morning? Making sure that, if possible, it doesn't conflict with your other desired sessions? 20:39:12 * MrTom (n=mrtom at fedora/MrTom) has joined #fedora-meeting 20:39:15 stickster: did you add the "Clean up Projects list?" agenda item? 20:39:21 stickster: ok 20:39:34 quaid: Hm. I don't recall. 20:40:04 yeah, looks like maybe you did 20:40:22 http://fedoraproject.org/wikiold/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings?action=recall&rev=125 20:40:34 ok, then we'll consider it done until you remember and add it back in 20:40:50 OK... last chance to shout out! 20:40:58 yo 20:41:06 small thing, just fyi 20:41:15 * jsmith passes the microphone to couf 20:41:41 I'm working on trying to make publishing docs to docs.fp.o similar to how the main static site is built 20:42:03 and as such, to have the new layout and such 20:42:06 * JSchmitt has quit ("Konversation terminated!") 20:42:31 going to move the code to the git-web? 20:42:35 or a new project for just docs? 20:42:46 not sure there 20:42:46 * quaid thinks he votes for the latter, so Docs can add people independent of Web 20:42:54 don't want to overload fedora-web 20:43:00 and that too 20:43:20 * mmcgrath agrees with quaid on that, and new repos are generally cheap. 20:43:20 * Sparks (n=Sparks at fedora/Sparks) has joined #fedora-meeting 20:43:27 we also need to start a tools project, so we can start to integrate our toolchain with publican somewhere new without CVS baggage :) 20:43:44 * Sparks is here 20:43:47 couf: +1 thanks for working on that, long been bothering me but keep not getting ahead to it 20:44:05 Sparks: sorry, I sullied your good name earlier :D 20:44:13 quaid: What did I do now? 20:44:16 Yeah... +1 to couf for working on that 20:44:21 * jsmith waves to Sparks 20:44:38 Sparks: nothing, it turns out :) 20:44:52 quaid: I usually do nothing... 20:45:05 Sparks: I thought you'd added an agenda item without explaining it in the agenda or in the commit comment log 20:45:13 *bdum psh* 20:45:30 :) 20:45:35 OK... I think we're about ready to wrap up the meeting 20:45:35 quaid: And I didn't? Wow, that's amazing all by itself. I'll try harder next time. 20:45:53 word 20:45:55 Speak now or forever (or until next week) hold your peace 20:45:58 10... 20:46:00 9... 20:46:02 8... 20:46:03 7... 20:46:05 6... 20:46:08 5... 20:46:10 4... 20:46:13 3.14159.... 20:46:17 2... 20:46:17 quaid: wtf is ISV? 20:46:23 * jsmith pauses the countdown 20:46:31 Independent Systems Vendor? 20:46:37 s/systems/software/ 20:46:49 IHV = Intel, ISV = Red Hat, Alfresco, etc. 20:46:56 ah kay, check 20:46:58 otoh, Intel does ISV work, too :) 20:47:06 jsmith: go ahead and finish lad 20:47:07 quaid: Confusing world we live in, isn't it 20:47:07 * Gaaruto has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 20:47:09 1... 20:47:12 From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net Wed Jun 11 20:51:27 2008 From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:51:27 -0400 Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2008-06-11 Summary Message-ID: <1213217487.4849.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> Attendees: ----------- Paul Frields (stickster) Eric Christensen (Sparks) Jared Smith (jsmith) Bart Couvreur (couf) Karsten Wade (quaid) Clint Savage (herlo) Summary: -------- * Leadership changes ~ - Everyone seemed to be in agreement on the proposed changes ~ - There was no response to Karsten's email, which is viewed as a positive sign * Release notes ~ - No change from last week * Active content ~ - Security Guide to stay in the Wiki for now ~ - Call to arms (or pens, or keyboards) for help with Getting Involved Guide and User Guide. Different sections will be assigned to various members, similar to beats. Assignments will be made at some future time * Cleaning up Projects list ~ - Deferred until we can figure out who added this to the agenda, and what it means * All other business ~ - Bart mentioned that he is making publishing docs to docs.fp.o similar to how the main static site is built, and work is progressing ~ - Jared did a lousy job of leading the meeting, and shouldn't be allowed to do it ever again From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 13:43:53 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:43:53 -0400 Subject: trademark legal issues for Fedora In-Reply-To: <4851E1E9.6090501@redhat.com> References: <4851E1E9.6090501@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1213364633.8790.49.camel@victoria> I'm going to move this discussion to fedora-docs-list, where others can help think about the solution in a Brave New World of documents individually hosted as projects. On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 12:56 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote: > Hi! > > I noticed ... that the documentation in > Fedora does not include any trademark attribution statements, or any > proper marking. > > If a company decides they care about this, who gets the blame? I think we have our trademark documentation in the legalnotice element that's included in all our published documentation. That happens automatically in the Fedora Docs toolchain when we make HTML or other outputs from the XML. Obviously, if we go to individually hosted Fedora projects for documentation, we don't want each manual to carry its own copy of the legal notice. What we could do is: 1. Continue to use XInclude for these purposes, basically putting in a placeholder for the element. 2. Have the README or other instructions for the project (and the .spec file for the package) rely on a fedora-doc-common package. a. That package would be *itself* a hosted project. b. Its content would be original XML and PO files. c. It would produce a package of all the XML files, original and translated. d. Those XML files would be used in the in the individual hosted documents. This makes sense to me from a programmatic standpoint. It's much like Python projects -- you put in a README saying what the developer (documentation writer) needs to have installed to help out. Then in the .spec file you put in "BuildRequires: fedora-doc-common", which means the RPM package that eventually goes to people's systems will have all the right content inside. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Jun 13 16:14:15 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:14:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Outage Notification - 2008-06-16 03:00 UTC Message-ID: There will be an outage starting at 2008-06-16 03:00 UTC, which will last approximately 1 hour. To convert UTC to your local time, take a look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UTCHowto or run: date -d '2008-06-16 03:00 UTC' Affected Services: Websites (wiki only) Smolts.org Cacti Unaffected Services: CVS / Source Control Buildsystem Database DNS Mail Torrent Ticket Link: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/623#preview Reason for Outage: The new db1 is installed and ready. This is our primary mysql database and backup for postgres. The OS and storage has already been prepared. Its just a matter of making db1 unavailable, doing a dump, copy, import and IP rename. I expect things to go smoothly as there are no major changes other than hardware. Contact Information: Please join #fedora-admin in irc.freenode.net or respond to this email to track the status of this outage. From stickster at gmail.com Sat Jun 14 14:11:48 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 10:11:48 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Echo Icons Tutorial - Working with Git] Message-ID: <1213452708.3500.11.camel@victoria> This is on the Artwork list -- maybe Martin's work could be of use to people in migrating our CVS documentation to individual hosted projects. Git seems a little weird at first if you're really used to CVS and SVN, but it's super powerful and pretty much everyone seems to be moving to it now. -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: Martin Sourada > Reply-To: Discussions about the artwork included with Fedora, > including icons, themes, and wallpapers. > To: Discussions about the artwork included with Fedora, including > icons, themes, and wallpapers. > Subject: Echo Icons Tutorial - Working with Git > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:51:26 +0200 > > Hi, > > I finished another tutorial for the echo icon theme, this time targeted > at artists that might be afraid of having to work with git [1]. I hope I > explained the steps we use to set up and use git repository good enough; > if not, shout loud what section you do not understand and together we'll > improve it ;-) > > Of course, I also put it on my blog [2] ;-) > > Comments welcome, > Martin > > References: > [1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/WorkingWithGit > [2] > http://mso-chronicles.blogspot.com/2008/06/echo-icons-working-with-git.html > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-art-list mailing list > Fedora-art-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sun Jun 15 15:34:16 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:34:16 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Echo Icons Tutorial - Working with Git] In-Reply-To: <1213452708.3500.11.camel@victoria> References: <1213452708.3500.11.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1213544056.3866.445.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Sat, 2008-06-14 at 10:11 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > This is on the Artwork list -- maybe Martin's work could be of use to > people in migrating our CVS documentation to individual hosted projects. > Git seems a little weird at first if you're really used to CVS and SVN, > but it's super powerful and pretty much everyone seems to be moving to > it now. +1 to declaring git the default Docs Project SCM. I'm brand-new with it, I still get stumbles, but it is clearly more useful than the CVS/SVN paradigm. I'd prefer to see *all* of our hosted books using the same SCM, to simplify training in Docs. Since we finally have the chance to abandon CVS, let's not do the half-step to SVN. We're not some enterprise constrained by process and archaic beliefs! Writer groups who start off a book on fedorahosted.org have the right to make their own choice, but a very strong recommendation of a specific SCM seems like a sane idea to me. (Then we can just debate the specific SCM.) ;-D - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Mon Jun 16 17:40:42 2008 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:40:42 +0200 Subject: Fonts SIG wiki migration cleanup & changes Message-ID: <1213638043.28703.26.camel@rousalka.okg> Hi all, After 10 days of work and about 850 changes the Fonts SIG wiki is operationnal again. (I don't know mediawiki, so I won't claim to have been efficient). The cleanup was accompagned by restructuring to take into account differing moin/mediawiki capabilities and the fact some pages had become huge and monstruous over time. The SIG home page has been moved to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Fonts_SIG The old SIG pipeline and wishlist pages have been split in per-font articles to be more manageable: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Packaged_fonts http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Font_wishlist The new SIG workflow is to create a new page per font and change the page category as the font progresses in the packaging process. A documented font page template is provided to ease this workflow. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Font_description_template If you're the maintainer of a font package, or if you've added a font to the wishlist, please check the corresponding font page exists and is as complete as possible. I've nuked the old SIG member list. It was incomplete and not up to date. If you wish to register your interest in the SIG please just add the Fonts_SIG_members category to your homepage to get listed there. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Fonts_SIG_members Using categories means you get nice dynamic self-maintaining indexes all over the place. I hope the end result is clear and pleasant and will motivate more people to work on the big font wishlist. Remember: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_10_fonts_packaging_call Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From tombo at adamantio.net Tue Jun 17 04:50:58 2008 From: tombo at adamantio.net (Francesco Tombolini) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:50:58 +0200 Subject: Evaluate to publish it_IT TQSG Message-ID: <485742B2.5010503@adamantio.net> Hallo, my team and I have completed the tqsg translation and revision. Could someone evaluate to publish it? Thank-you -- Francesco Tombolini Key fingerprint = EDA9 7504 AA93 CEFC 5990 1356 8584 6B05 F140 5F73 http://www.adamantio.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 259 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 12:47:37 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:47:37 -0400 Subject: Evaluate to publish it_IT TQSG In-Reply-To: <485742B2.5010503@adamantio.net> References: <485742B2.5010503@adamantio.net> Message-ID: <1213706857.3329.28.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 06:50 +0200, Francesco Tombolini wrote: > Hallo, my team and I have completed the tqsg translation and revision. > Could someone evaluate to publish it? > Thank-you Done! :-) Should be live shortly. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Tue Jun 17 15:08:57 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:08:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Outage Notification - 2008-06-17 14:00 UTC Message-ID: There was an outage starting at 2008-06-17 14:00 UTC, which lasted approximately 1 hour. To convert UTC to your local time, take a look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UTCHowto or run: date -d '2008-06-17 14:00 UTC' Affected Services: Websites Database Unaffected Services: Websites CVS / Source Control Buildsystem Database DNS Mail Torrent Hosted Ticket Link: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/634 Reason for Outage: Hardware issue. Current suspect is memory. We reverted our migration from this weekend and are running on the older hardware again. Contact Information: Please join #fedora-admin in irc.freenode.net or respond to this email to track the status of this outage. From tombo at adamantio.net Tue Jun 17 20:26:23 2008 From: tombo at adamantio.net (Francesco Tombolini) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:26:23 +0200 Subject: Evaluate to publish it_IT TQSG In-Reply-To: <1213706857.3329.28.camel@victoria> References: <485742B2.5010503@adamantio.net> <1213706857.3329.28.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <48581DEF.9010106@adamantio.net> Paul W. Frields ha scritto: > Done! :-) Should be live shortly. > Thankyou very much! :-) -- Francesco Tombolini Key fingerprint = EDA9 7504 AA93 CEFC 5990 1356 8584 6B05 F140 5F73 http://www.adamantio.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 259 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From eric at christensenplace.us Wed Jun 18 18:12:08 2008 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric H Christensen) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:12:08 -0400 Subject: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors Message-ID: <9383263.76831213812728808.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> I was doing some gardening in the wiki this afternoon and noticed something (I think someone else made a note on the wiki about this). There are three pages listing "members" of the Docs Project. There are contributors [1], writers [2], and editors [3]. Are these pages (1) redundant and (2) out dated? I think the answer to both parts of that question are yes in which case I'd like to remove the Writers [2] and the Editors [3] pages and update the Contributors [1] page. Any thoughts? Eric "Sparks" [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Writers [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Editors From cwcarlson at cox.net Thu Jun 19 05:38:32 2008 From: cwcarlson at cox.net (Chris Carlson) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:38:32 -0700 Subject: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: <9383263.76831213812728808.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> References: <9383263.76831213812728808.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: <4859F0D8.6080904@cox.net> Hello, all. I've been lurking for a few weeks to see how the mail interactions progressed, and I've decided to introduce myself. I'm probably one of the oldest members of this list. I've been developing software since 1970, developing in Unix since 1978 and have worked at all levels of Linux, from drivers to C/C++ to Perl and HTML. I haven't delved into Ruby or Python yet, but it's just a matter of time. I used to work at SGI with GL and OpenGL, though my graphics side has not been used for the last 10 years. Because of my experience, I'm often more comfortable at the command-line level. For that reason, I'm always doing "man " or "info ". Because of this, I'm very aware of man pages that are missing or out of date. I like info, but usually only prefer it when the man page is long. The only graphical man page I got comfortable with was xman, which apparently isn't available anymore. I'm sure there are newer, better GUIs for man pages, but I'm not yet used to them. Anyway, I also have a bent for using proper English (not British English, just proper grammar and punctuation). I'm often editing stories, documentation or letters, and I'm a newsletter editor for the American Legion. Given this background, I thought I could be of some use to the Fedora documentation project. I'm not sure how much time I'll have, but I want to help. I've already found a minor typo in the documentation for glXIntro. The example program sets an attribute to GLX_DOUBLE_BUFFER, but the symbol doesn't exist; it's now called GLX_DOUBLEBUFFER. So that's my introduction of myself. Let me know if there's anything specific for which I can assist, otherwise, I'll just see what I can do and how much time I can offer. ------------ As for the message to which I'm replying, my guess is the wiki page is way out of date. How should it be updated? Any one of us add/remove our names? Or is there an individual in charge of that? Chris Carlson Eric H Christensen wrote: > I was doing some gardening in the wiki this afternoon and noticed something (I think someone else made a note on the wiki about this). There are three pages listing "members" of the Docs Project. There are contributors [1], writers [2], and editors [3]. Are these pages (1) redundant and (2) out dated? I think the answer to both parts of that question are yes in which case I'd like to remove the Writers [2] and the Editors [3] pages and update the Contributors [1] page. > > Any thoughts? > > Eric "Sparks" > > [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors > [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Writers > [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Editors > > From sulyokpeti at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 06:31:37 2008 From: sulyokpeti at gmail.com (Sulyok Peti) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:31:37 +0200 Subject: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: <4859F0D8.6080904@cox.net> References: <9383263.76831213812728808.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <4859F0D8.6080904@cox.net> Message-ID: <1213857097.16424.6.camel@sutty.chickenkiller.com> 2008. 06. 18, szerda keltez?ssel 22.38-kor Chris Carlson ezt ?rta: > Given this background, I thought I could be of some use to the Fedora > documentation project. I'm not sure how much time I'll have, but I want > to help. I've already found a minor typo in the documentation for > glXIntro. The example program sets an attribute to GLX_DOUBLE_BUFFER, > but the symbol doesn't exist; it's now called GLX_DOUBLEBUFFER. I do not want to drive you away, but this problem is not a Fedora Docs issue. If you type >>>>>>>>>>>> $ rpm -qif /usr/share/man/man3/glXIntro.3gl.gz Name : mesa-libGL-devel Relocations: (not relocatable) Version : 7.1 Vendor: Fedora Project Release : 0.31.fc9 Build Date: 2008. m?j. 10., szombat, 07.43.18 CEST Install Date: 2008. m?j. 30., p?ntek, 18.39.24 CEST Build Host: xenbuilder2.fedora.redhat.com Group : Development/Libraries Source RPM: mesa-7.1-0.31.fc9.src.rpm Size : 938090 License: MIT Signature : DSA/SHA1, 2008. m?j. 28., szerda, 13.32.44 CEST, Key ID b44269d04f2a6fd2 Packager : Fedora Project URL : http://www.mesa3d.org Summary : Mesa libGL development package <<<<<<<<<< So this doc belongs to ?http://www.mesa3d.org From cwcarlson at cox.net Thu Jun 19 15:43:16 2008 From: cwcarlson at cox.net (Chris Carlson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:43:16 -0700 Subject: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: <1213857097.16424.6.camel@sutty.chickenkiller.com> References: <9383263.76831213812728808.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <4859F0D8.6080904@cox.net> <1213857097.16424.6.camel@sutty.chickenkiller.com> Message-ID: <485A7E94.7020306@cox.net> That won't drive me away. As I said, I'm trying to figure out the lay of the land here. Now I take it there is some documentation that is considered Fedora documentation while other documentation is from other organizations. I guess I presumed if it was accessible from "fedora" via yum, it was considered Fedora documentation. Thanks for the insight. Chris Sulyok Peti wrote: > 2008. 06. 18, szerda keltez?ssel 22.38-kor Chris Carlson ezt ?rta: > >> Given this background, I thought I could be of some use to the Fedora >> documentation project. I'm not sure how much time I'll have, but I want >> to help. I've already found a minor typo in the documentation for >> glXIntro. The example program sets an attribute to GLX_DOUBLE_BUFFER, >> but the symbol doesn't exist; it's now called GLX_DOUBLEBUFFER. >> > > I do not want to drive you away, but this problem is not a Fedora Docs > issue. If you type > > $ rpm -qif /usr/share/man/man3/glXIntro.3gl.gz > Name : mesa-libGL-devel Relocations: (not > relocatable) > Version : 7.1 Vendor: Fedora Project > Release : 0.31.fc9 Build Date: 2008. m?j. 10., > szombat, 07.43.18 CEST > Install Date: 2008. m?j. 30., p?ntek, 18.39.24 CEST Build Host: > xenbuilder2.fedora.redhat.com > Group : Development/Libraries Source RPM: > mesa-7.1-0.31.fc9.src.rpm > Size : 938090 License: MIT > Signature : DSA/SHA1, 2008. m?j. 28., szerda, 13.32.44 CEST, Key ID > b44269d04f2a6fd2 > Packager : Fedora Project > URL : http://www.mesa3d.org > Summary : Mesa libGL development package > <<<<<<<<<< > > So this doc belongs to ?http://www.mesa3d.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Thu Jun 19 16:15:27 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:15:27 +0100 Subject: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: <485A7E94.7020306@cox.net> References: <9383263.76831213812728808.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <4859F0D8.6080904@cox.net> <1213857097.16424.6.camel@sutty.chickenkiller.com> <485A7E94.7020306@cox.net> Message-ID: <507738ef0806190915s16eac33egacfd8f15df4fef1c@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/19 Chris Carlson : > That won't drive me away. As I said, I'm trying to figure out the lay of > the land here. Now I take it there is some documentation that is considered > Fedora documentation while other documentation is from other organizations. > I guess I presumed if it was accessible from "fedora" via yum, it was > considered Fedora documentation. One of Fedora's major goals as a distribution is to work closely with upstream projects, and finding easy ways for people to contribute to the upstream projects through Fedora. Our translation team did a great job creating Transifex, an easy way for upstream to make this projects available through a common interface for anybody interested in translating it. What you could do, and it would be entirely in the spirit of Fedora to do so, is: a) Fix the bugs you find, even if it's in an upstream project (e.g. Your typo) b) Find ways to make it as easy for others to do the same as possible I'd argue that this kind of issue is exactly the sort of thing the docs project should be looking to tackle in the future, but then again I'm probably (I won't say definitely, I actually find this idea really interesting!) not going to be doing the work... I hope this helps, and I really hope you go on to not just contribute to docs created by members of this team, but also to help upstream get more exposure and more help writing their own docs :) Let me know if I can be of any help! Best, Jon From draciron at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 16:56:32 2008 From: draciron at gmail.com (Dan Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:56:32 -0400 Subject: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: <485A7E94.7020306@cox.net> References: <9383263.76831213812728808.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <4859F0D8.6080904@cox.net> <1213857097.16424.6.camel@sutty.chickenkiller.com> <485A7E94.7020306@cox.net> Message-ID: Some folks contribute in multiple ways. I've not been able to make a big contribution. Life has been a challenging for me the last year or so. Another issue that has come up is Fedora's abandonment of the desktop. That is a real problem as a key issue with Linux adoption is the desktop. It is where you win the hearts and souls of most users. Which is also a key issue between me and the group in philosophy. I see our key duty in this project is to help adoption of Linux. Documentation being the bridge for novice users to gain enough ability and confidence in Linux to switch from M$ products to Linux. Fedora being for years the easiest to use and most powerful distro out there. The official abandonment of the desktop, something you could see coming by the official policies of Fedora is the eventual death knell of the distro if that course is not reversed fairly quickly. Inovation on the desktop is what will prove most vital in adoption rates. Fedora in the last 2 years sank from the top used distro to a distant third or fourth last year in a Linux journal survey and the same trend has been reflected in other distro surveys over the last few years. An even more telling sign is three years ago if Linux support was offered it was offered as an RPM. Today you are just as likely to see a .deb package as an RPM. Many sites don't offer RPMs at all any more. A huge change from a few years ago when RPM based distros like Fedora, Mandrake and SUSE ruled the Linux market. I strongly feel that Ubuntu's desktop innovations is the key factor in this. I have strong issues with Ubuntu's unfriendly attitude toward KDE and it's live CD only distrobution methods. I've not been a big fan of Debian distros over the years either so Fedora has remained my primary distro where 3 years ago it was my only distro. Ubuntu for example has tackled the multi-media issues with a gusto. It also has worked hard to support the JACK audio system which for some reason is the backbone of choice with Linux audio recording software. Fedora is almost anti-Jack. It is a real challenge getting Jack to work on Fedora for some reason. I've gotten tt to work once so far but it was so buggy that I never could use software like Rosegarden with any success. So there is also the issue of enthusiam. Fedora is still easily the best free server distro out there. I prefer it even over CentOS which is a knock off of RHE. To be honest I prefered Fedora over RHE. Been a few years since I was at a shop that used RHE and since there's no personal distro no way to keep up with RHE except to use CentOS. However what an admin uses at home is going to be what they use at work most of the time. Most people will go with what is comfortable, known and familuer to them over something that might have a couple nice features but is something they don't work with every day on a day in and day out basis. As such I feel Fedora's decision to not continue to compete on desktop innovation is distrocide, which makes our efforts rather pointless and leaves me struggling to find a new favorite distro. What I use every day will be what I will be most likely and willing to contribute too. Albiet my contributions to this group have not been great. In fact I've started a couple arguments LOL. However I feel it's important that we keep things open and folks on this list have responded in that spirit. Even if they didn't agree with me, my disention has been taken in the spirit it was meant, that is as constructive criticism. Not sure I can really be listed as any of the above any more. Been a year since my last writing contribution. Two contributions which never got submitted still sitting on my hard drive. I'm considering bowing out of the effort completely however. Right now I'm spending more and more time in other distros. I am desperately attempting to find drivers for my break out boxes and software that I can use for multi-track recording under Linux. My laptop is running Kbuntu since finding Fedora drivers for it would be a real nightmare. Dell puts out Ubuntu specific drivers that work quite well. No point breaking something that works fine. I'm trying out 3 Debian based musician specific distros for my recording box and considering going with Kbuntu on a new machine for the multi-media aspects that I've struggled with on Fedora using FC 6 and 7 on 64 bit machines. If I go with the 32 bit version I can get things running but would love to use the 64 bit version instead. Not real sure what I'm going to do with my file server. FC 7 complained about not having enough RAM on it so it's still running FC 6. 128 megs should be plenty for a headless server but FC 7 didn't like it. Wasn't even attempting to install X on it. So I have to find a less Ram intensive modern distro for that machine. Still running FC6 on my other 32 bit machine because the scanner drivers break on FC7 but work great on FC6. I also lose the sound card on FC7 while it is autodetected and runs great on FC6. Problem is it's getting harder to find support for FC6 and when I do upgrade the machine it'll probably have to be a non-Fedora distro. There are probably solutions but the time and effort to get it working compared to using a distro that still supports the rather common hardware (Nvidia sound and video) just makes more sense. Less hassle and potential for accidentally knocking out my sound & scanner and having to redo everything. Last year I had 5 machines all running Fedora. In a few months I'll probably be down to one or two Fedora boxes. So in short. People contribute on multiple levels. The level of contribution I feel has waned a bit. Still lots of people wanting to help. Unless your looking for somebody specific for a specific task dont' see how it really matters much. Important thing is generating enthusiasm and getting bulk work done initially. That's kind of been the weak point of the project the whole time I've been a member. Once started work seems to flow very well. Getting the initial documents started seems to be the most difficult aspect. There are knowledgable, friendly and willing people to carry the task from there to completion. My 2 cents on the topic. On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Chris Carlson wrote: > That won't drive me away. As I said, I'm trying to figure out the lay of > the land here. Now I take it there is some documentation that is considered > Fedora documentation while other documentation is from other organizations. > I guess I presumed if it was accessible from "fedora" via yum, it was > considered Fedora documentation. > > Thanks for the insight. > > Chris > > > Sulyok Peti wrote: > > 2008. 06. 18, szerda keltez?ssel 22.38-kor Chris Carlson ezt ?rta: > > > Given this background, I thought I could be of some use to the Fedora > documentation project. I'm not sure how much time I'll have, but I want > to help. I've already found a minor typo in the documentation for > glXIntro. The example program sets an attribute to GLX_DOUBLE_BUFFER, > but the symbol doesn't exist; it's now called GLX_DOUBLEBUFFER. > > > I do not want to drive you away, but this problem is not a Fedora Docs > issue. If you type > > > $ rpm -qif /usr/share/man/man3/glXIntro.3gl.gz > Name : mesa-libGL-devel Relocations: (not > relocatable) > Version : 7.1 Vendor: Fedora Project > Release : 0.31.fc9 Build Date: 2008. m?j. 10., > szombat, 07.43.18 CEST > Install Date: 2008. m?j. 30., p?ntek, 18.39.24 CEST Build Host: > xenbuilder2.fedora.redhat.com > Group : Development/Libraries Source RPM: > mesa-7.1-0.31.fc9.src.rpm > Size : 938090 License: MIT > Signature : DSA/SHA1, 2008. m?j. 28., szerda, 13.32.44 CEST, Key ID > b44269d04f2a6fd2 > Packager : Fedora Project > URL : http://www.mesa3d.org > Summary : Mesa libGL development package > <<<<<<<<<< > > So this doc belongs to ?http://www.mesa3d.org > > > > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net Thu Jun 19 23:13:54 2008 From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:13:54 -0400 Subject: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: References: <9383263.76831213812728808.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <4859F0D8.6080904@cox.net> <1213857097.16424.6.camel@sutty.chickenkiller.com> <485A7E94.7020306@cox.net> Message-ID: <1213917234.28305.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-06-19 at 12:56 -0400, Dan Smith wrote: > Some folks contribute in multiple ways. Absolutely... > I've not been able to make a big contribution. I'm certainly feeling guilty about that too... > Another issue that has come up is Fedora's abandonment of the > desktop. [very long snip] I'm glad that you were able to get that off your chest... I'm sure that writing about it helped. That being said, it's really orthogonal to the thread, and better suited for another list other than the docs project mailing list. I don't mean to sound rude or to come off as condescending (and I would have simply kept my mouth shut), but I've had several other people come to me in private and ask "What? Fedora is abandoning the desktop? Why are we writing docs if they don't care!" and were left very confused by your post. In short, let's please try to stick to the topic at hand, please. -Jared From cwcarlson at cox.net Fri Jun 20 02:07:34 2008 From: cwcarlson at cox.net (Chris Carlson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:07:34 -0700 Subject: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: References: <9383263.76831213812728808.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <4859F0D8.6080904@cox.net> <1213857097.16424.6.camel@sutty.chickenkiller.com> <485A7E94.7020306@cox.net> Message-ID: <485B10E6.1030208@cox.net> Mr. Smith, I sure hope what you say isn't true. It may seem like it, but from what I've seen comparing Fedora 9 to RH7.3 (where I used to be), the desktop has improved considerably. Also, since this project is a collaborative effort, it requires people to focus on the important issues. If you feel that the desktop is the top issue, then I'd like to suggest you help make it so. Based on what I've been seeing on the fedora-list, there are gobs and gobs of bugs that need to be fixed that have nothing to do with the desktop (your issues with sound are an example). Could it be that individuals are focusing on their pet projects rather than the desktop? My guess is the average individual working on Fedora is Linux-savvy and doesn't care about the desktop for themselves, so they put their efforts into the bugs or features that interest them. I also believe that the desktop is extremely important. For Linux to be accepted in place of M$, it *must* be idiot-proof. Unfortunately, the underpinnings seem to be changing so rapidly, things that used to work don't anymore, and no one wants to go back and fix them (or at least very few do). So, the system gets lots of features, but the desktop drifts. I myself want to work on the desktop (presuming I have the time). Unfortunately, it seems that this has become an ominous task as I now have to learn yet another language (gnome script or kde script), and that isn't on the top of my priority list right now. Working with X, Xt and Motif was so much easier 10 years ago. I could develop a Motif window much like Gnome's or KDEs, but it seems that the world had abandoned Motif. By the time I get Gnome understood, there'll be yet another window manager that will be the favorite. :-) Anyway, I wouldn't say that the desktop is dead; it's just dormant while other things are more pressing. Thanks for your view, though. It helps me to understand where efforts need to be placed. Chris Dan Smith wrote: > Some folks contribute in multiple ways. I've not been able to make a > big contribution. Life has been a challenging for me the last year or > so. Another issue that has come up is Fedora's abandonment of the > desktop. That is a real problem as a key issue with Linux adoption is > the desktop. It is where you win the hearts and souls of most users. > Which is also a key issue between me and the group in philosophy. I > see our key duty in this project is to help adoption of Linux. > Documentation being the bridge for novice users to gain enough ability > and confidence in Linux to switch from M$ products to Linux. Fedora > being for years the easiest to use and most powerful distro out there. > The official abandonment of the desktop, something you could see > coming by the official policies of Fedora is the eventual death knell > of the distro if that course is not reversed fairly quickly. Inovation > on the desktop is what will prove most vital in adoption rates. Fedora > in the last 2 years sank from the top used distro to a distant third > or fourth last year in a Linux journal survey and the same trend has > been reflected in other distro surveys over the last few years. An > even more telling sign is three years ago if Linux support was offered > it was offered as an RPM. Today you are just as likely to see a .deb > package as an RPM. Many sites don't offer RPMs at all any more. A > huge change from a few years ago when RPM based distros like Fedora, > Mandrake and SUSE ruled the Linux market. > > I strongly feel that Ubuntu's desktop innovations is the key factor in > this. I have strong issues with Ubuntu's unfriendly attitude toward > KDE and it's live CD only distrobution methods. I've not been a big > fan of Debian distros over the years either so Fedora has remained my > primary distro where 3 years ago it was my only distro. > > Ubuntu for example has tackled the multi-media issues with a gusto. It > also has worked hard to support the JACK audio system which for some > reason is the backbone of choice with Linux audio recording software. > Fedora is almost anti-Jack. It is a real challenge getting Jack to > work on Fedora for some reason. I've gotten tt to work once so far but > it was so buggy that I never could use software like Rosegarden with > any success. > > So there is also the issue of enthusiam. Fedora is still easily the > best free server distro out there. I prefer it even over CentOS which > is a knock off of RHE. To be honest I prefered Fedora over RHE. Been a > few years since I was at a shop that used RHE and since there's no > personal distro no way to keep up with RHE except to use CentOS. > However what an admin uses at home is going to be what they use at > work most of the time. Most people will go with what is comfortable, > known and familuer to them over something that might have a couple > nice features but is something they don't work with every day on a day > in and day out basis. As such I feel Fedora's decision to not continue > to compete on desktop innovation is distrocide, which makes our > efforts rather pointless and leaves me struggling to find a new > favorite distro. What I use every day will be what I will be most > likely and willing to contribute too. Albiet my contributions to this > group have not been great. In fact I've started a couple arguments > LOL. However I feel it's important that we keep things open and folks > on this list have responded in that spirit. Even if they didn't agree > with me, my disention has been taken in the spirit it was meant, that > is as constructive criticism. Not sure I can really be listed as any > of the above any more. Been a year since my last writing contribution. > Two contributions which never got submitted still sitting on my hard > drive. I'm considering bowing out of the effort completely however. > Right now I'm spending more and more time in other distros. I am > desperately attempting to find drivers for my break out boxes and > software that I can use for multi-track recording under Linux. My > laptop is running Kbuntu since finding Fedora drivers for it would be > a real nightmare. Dell puts out Ubuntu specific drivers that work > quite well. No point breaking something that works fine. I'm trying > out 3 Debian based musician specific distros for my recording box and > considering going with Kbuntu on a new machine for the multi-media > aspects that I've struggled with on Fedora using FC 6 and 7 on 64 bit > machines. If I go with the 32 bit version I can get things running but > would love to use the 64 bit version instead. Not real sure what I'm > going to do with my file server. FC 7 complained about not having > enough RAM on it so it's still running FC 6. 128 megs should be plenty > for a headless server but FC 7 didn't like it. Wasn't even attempting > to install X on it. So I have to find a less Ram intensive modern > distro for that machine. Still running FC6 on my other 32 bit machine > because the scanner drivers break on FC7 but work great on FC6. I also > lose the sound card on FC7 while it is autodetected and runs great on > FC6. Problem is it's getting harder to find support for FC6 and when I > do upgrade the machine it'll probably have to be a non-Fedora distro. > There are probably solutions but the time and effort to get it working > compared to using a distro that still supports the rather common > hardware (Nvidia sound and video) just makes more sense. Less hassle > and potential for accidentally knocking out my sound & scanner and > having to redo everything. Last year I had 5 machines all running > Fedora. In a few months I'll probably be down to one or two Fedora > boxes. > > So in short. People contribute on multiple levels. The level of > contribution I feel has waned a bit. Still lots of people wanting to > help. Unless your looking for somebody specific for a specific task > dont' see how it really matters much. Important thing is generating > enthusiasm and getting bulk work done initially. That's kind of been > the weak point of the project the whole time I've been a member. Once > started work seems to flow very well. Getting the initial documents > started seems to be the most difficult aspect. There are > knowledgable, friendly and willing people to carry the task from there > to completion. > > My 2 cents on the topic. > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Chris Carlson wrote: > >> That won't drive me away. As I said, I'm trying to figure out the lay of >> the land here. Now I take it there is some documentation that is considered >> Fedora documentation while other documentation is from other organizations. >> I guess I presumed if it was accessible from "fedora" via yum, it was >> considered Fedora documentation. >> >> Thanks for the insight. >> >> Chris >> >> >> Sulyok Peti wrote: >> >> 2008. 06. 18, szerda keltez?ssel 22.38-kor Chris Carlson ezt ?rta: >> >> >> Given this background, I thought I could be of some use to the Fedora >> documentation project. I'm not sure how much time I'll have, but I want >> to help. I've already found a minor typo in the documentation for >> glXIntro. The example program sets an attribute to GLX_DOUBLE_BUFFER, >> but the symbol doesn't exist; it's now called GLX_DOUBLEBUFFER. >> >> >> I do not want to drive you away, but this problem is not a Fedora Docs >> issue. If you type >> >> >> $ rpm -qif /usr/share/man/man3/glXIntro.3gl.gz >> Name : mesa-libGL-devel Relocations: (not >> relocatable) >> Version : 7.1 Vendor: Fedora Project >> Release : 0.31.fc9 Build Date: 2008. m?j. 10., >> szombat, 07.43.18 CEST >> Install Date: 2008. m?j. 30., p?ntek, 18.39.24 CEST Build Host: >> xenbuilder2.fedora.redhat.com >> Group : Development/Libraries Source RPM: >> mesa-7.1-0.31.fc9.src.rpm >> Size : 938090 License: MIT >> Signature : DSA/SHA1, 2008. m?j. 28., szerda, 13.32.44 CEST, Key ID >> b44269d04f2a6fd2 >> Packager : Fedora Project >> URL : http://www.mesa3d.org >> Summary : Mesa libGL development package >> <<<<<<<<<< >> >> So this doc belongs to ?http://www.mesa3d.org >> >> >> >> >> -- >> fedora-docs-list mailing list >> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com >> To unsubscribe: >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sanjay_ankur at yahoo.co.in Fri Jun 20 13:59:32 2008 From: sanjay_ankur at yahoo.co.in (ankur sinha) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:29:32 +0530 (IST) Subject: Introduction.. Message-ID: <794377.72421.qm@web8411.mail.in.yahoo.com> hi,Im Ankur, a 3rd semester student from India.. Im really new to the documentation project and rely heavily on all of your guidance to be able to contribute to it..Hope to have a great time with you folks on this..regards,Ankur Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net Fri Jun 20 14:39:45 2008 From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:39:45 -0400 Subject: Introduction.. In-Reply-To: <794377.72421.qm@web8411.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <794377.72421.qm@web8411.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1213972785.15551.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 19:29 +0530, ankur sinha wrote: > Hope to have a great time with you folks on this.. > Welcome to the Fedora Docs Project! Please take your time to familiarize yourself with what we do. Much of what we do is documented on the wiki at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. Many of us also hang out in #fedora-docs on the Freenode IRC network, if you'd like to chat. -Jared Smith From draciron at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 17:34:07 2008 From: draciron at gmail.com (Dan Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:34:07 -0400 Subject: Future was Re: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors Message-ID: Mr Carlson On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:07 PM, Chris Carlson wrote: > Mr. Smith, > > I sure hope what you say isn't true. It may seem like it, but from what A few months back the Fedora project officially announced it was bowing out of the Desktop development game :( I was saddened but not surprised and that seemed to be the general concencus in all the blogs I read about the announcement. > I've seen comparing Fedora 9 to RH7.3 (where I used to be), the desktop has I bought RH5 and actually got useful work done on it. By RH 6.x I was switched entirely to LInux and using RH both at work and at home. I agree the desktop has improved by light years since then. There was no way I was converting a novice computer user to Linux using the RH 7.x desktop. By FC3 I was not only converting novice computer users, I was helping out and answering questions from people to whom the words TCP/IP sounded like a jet aircraft LOL. I met a 12 yr old kid who installed Fedora without any help from anybody. Only needed help with a few things, mostly being pointed to the right repositories for example. Fedora has greatly advanced the Linux desktop and for years was the leader in Desktop innovation for the desktop. > improved considerably. Also, since this project is a collaborative effort, > it requires people to focus on the important issues. If you feel that the > desktop is the top issue, then I'd like to suggest you help make it so. > Based on what I've been seeing on the fedora-list, there are gobs and gobs > of bugs that need to be fixed that have nothing to do with the desktop (your > issues with sound are an example). Ah but sound is part of the desktop. There are lots of fundemental pieces of work that need to be done. A better example is the ability to change monitors without reinstalling the OS. That has to be one of the biggest annoynances, especially for single computer owners. No way to SSH in and fix things if you have no other machine to SSH in from and to be honest it's probably easier to reinstall than to get X to recognize a new monitor. Sound on laptops is especially flaky under Fedora. Scanners are poorly supported on Fedora as well and from what I've read Myth TV can be a bear to get working properly under Fedora. Jack audio and Fedora just plain do not get along. The list is long on those areas. I think we have divergent deffinitions of desktop. The general use is an overall desktop experience, not the Gnome vrs KDE vrs any other window manager. Key things I personally feel would be a big help in Linux adoption. Compatability with Windoze specific formats - Here huge progress has been made. Open Office has especially brought the Linux desktop up to speed on this aspect but lots of other projects have helped a great deal as well. Software installation - Here the RPM and deb GUI package managers have turned this from a liability into a major positive for most instlalations. Tarballs scare novice users. Dependency hell that can often accompany a tarball installation scare even long time Linux users LOL. The RPM repositories are still the largest but the .deb repositories are catching up. What is disturbing is how many packages exist only on one or the other and how many are woefully antique on one or the other. Wesnoth for example. No way you install Wesnoth on Fedora from an RPM if you want anything close to the current game or even a working version of Wesnoth. Yet Wesnoth is probably the most advanced and stable game freely availible for Linux. The .deb version is current and installs a full featured and stable version. In both cases the GUI package managers make Windoze installations seem primitive and a pain, where as a few short years ago installations was one of the biggest negatives I got back from new Linux users. > Could it be that individuals are focusing on their pet projects rather than > the desktop? My guess is the average individual working on Fedora is > Linux-savvy and doesn't care about the desktop for themselves, so they put > their efforts into the bugs or features that interest them. Difficult to ask somebody to work on something that does not interest them, especially somebody doing the work for free. It's more an issue of focus and culture. Fedora is populated by old school Nix people, many of whom never really ran windoze for a primary environment. Look back at the tools thread in this group and a surprising number of VI and Emacs users popped up. Few windoze converts would ever touch VI or Emacs. Not since much more user friendly editors have appeared. Though an easy to use console based text editor with standard keyboard shortcuts would be a huge help for Linux adoption. Where I lose many people is trying to walk them through a VI session if something goes wrong with X and they have to edit configuration files or SSH in to a machine which doesn't have X installed. They love the idea of remote administration but VI sends them screaming into the night. The learning curve was too steep for me to ever mess with it. One of the reasons I love Linux is that I spend very little time doing sys admin tasks and almost all my time doing stuff WITH not TOO my computer. No defragging, no virus scanning, no constant roll backs, no registry hacking. I install it, I do updates, every once in a while I add or change something. I run occasional rootkit checks and if my machine behaves oddly in any way I am going through the logs with a fine tooth comb. Windoze is constant work to keep running. Learning VI and or Emacs is memorization of tons of keyboard shortcuts. Sure it might be handy to have but when even the most basic functions are so different than the CDE shortcuts I've used for years it just doesn't make the time expenditure all that worthwhile. The VI/C++ old school nix culture who is quite happy with primitive interfaces and who long ago spent the many hours learning and memorizing the many exotic and often complex user interfaces of Unix is the core culture of Fedora. You see it here in the docs project as my efforts to go into many areas were thwarted as they were considered "extra" when to a novice user, especially a windoze convert these areas are core functionality. Remember most computer users wouldn't know a primary partition from a whole in the ground and have been conditioned by years of M$ propoganda into thinking they shouldn't have too. So the languages supported, the documentation written are old school nix. Joe is probably as close to an easy console text editor you'll find and the UI for Joe is horrible for even someone like me who have used dozens of DOS and Linux text based editors. I wind up limping through enough VI to make simple changes or SSHing the file over to a machine with X for any major changes rather than deal with extended VI sessions. The lack of an easy to use, intuitive fast console based text editor is a weakness of the Linux desktop. Many windoze converts are scared enough of the console. Inflicting VI on them is a great way to send them back to windoze. Lots on this list are comfortable with VI and love it. Nothing wrong with that. It's the lack of empathy for those who are not which best demonstrates the culture that can write off desktop development as secondary. In my opinion it is crucial to the survival of Linux period. More so leaving it purely to Ubuntu is a big mistake. For years Fedora shouldered the main work in desktop development and other distros benefited from this work. Unlike competitors in commercial markets Fedora and Ubuntu can and should work closely together to augment their desktop and other areas of development. Right now I see little to no direct sharing between most distros. Especially the Debian world which seems an island all too itself. To yank out VI would gall many on this list as much as I and others have been galled by the lack of empathy for those who are comfortable with CDE and UIs that are close to CDE. I had to learn almost nothing to use Kedit or Gambas or a host of other Linux apps. This meant I spent my time doing stuff with the apps instead of spending time learning how to use them. A VB/QB drop in can still be a huge conversion tool and Gambas is perfect for that. The language wars have lingered on since the FIDO days. There is no room for such arrogance if we want to further Linux. Support both. Add Gambas to the standard install, hype it. Even add better VB/QB conversion utils. Think about the billions of lines of VB code out there that would convert to Gambas far easier than to .net and you have a very compelling arguement for many companies to switch to Linux. Each year that arguement wanes as more and more .net code is deployed. Still for the hobby programmer Basic remains the language of choice and Gambas can do for Linux what QB did for DOS. Basic made DOS really. The compatability helped but it could have easily been replaced by a competing OS but so many users had written so much code with Basic that they did not want to swtich. Even today you find large and enthusiastic QB clubs despite the difficutlties in getting QB to run under modern windoze OS's. QB and Rekall type utils create the ability for people to quickly and easily learn how to program and do useful work. Multi-media - Face it this is the biggest and most important issue. The poor Flash support is something that is hard to do anything about right now short of writing an open source replacement for Flash. Musicians find almost a total lack of support. Even long time Linux users like myself have to keep a windoze box around to record on. Rhapsody, Apple, and most other Music distributors have little or no support for Linux. Even Amazon's Linux app failed on my FC7 machine. Wine is nice but it's a mighty slow way of looking at the world. Propriatory formats suck but they are reality. Replacing mp3 with Ogg is a worthy cause on any platform and Linux can lead the way but there is still a real need to much better support multi-media on the Linux desktop. Eye candy can win many hearts. Educating people about Flac and Ogg formats is important. Yes there are lots of bugs to fis. Always will be. Lots of server issues to deal with, always will be. Linux by being both a great server, desktop and specialty OS will always see great demand. Windoze is a desktop first and foremost, even their server versions are desktops with server functionality added. Widnoze however is a commercial effort and limited by that. Linux has the ability to transcend those limits. That is where I come into odds with the old school Nix crowd who control Fedora. The interest is not there. Many of my potential and attempted contributions exceeded the defined boundries of that umwelt of what Linux is. I am not alone in that. This in turn discourages advancements in those areas. There are of course practical limits. Because of lawsuits the MP3 format cannot be officially supported but even if it was possible the culture is that because it is propriatary it is unclean. Few Linux users like propriatory software but the idealogical vrs the practical when you look at the wider scheme of things, it just makes sense to do what you can to enable users even if they choose to use propriatory formats. You can't force what's good for people down their throats. You win them over then introduce them to mature alternates. A great example of this was when I wanted to document the Yum GUIs. I was told that was out of scope in no uncertain terms. The vastly inferior default Yum GUI being the only one which was officially supported by Fedora and that would be documented. It took all the wind out of my sails for writing any documentation. The default is pretty lame. Yum Extendor, Kyum and Gnome-Yum all very good products which novice users would find invaluable. All products you have to pretty much discover by accident or be refered too by a friend. Use of a Yum GUI alone would help adoption tremendously. That is one of the strengths of Fedora. The ease of installation and the world of applications that open up before you with those products. Command line Yum with it's poor fuzzy search support and nearly unworkable search facilities is all but useless. Without a Yum GUI users are forced back to the windoze days of browsing websites and individually installing apps. That is an example of Fedora dropping desktop support before the official announcement ever came out. An example of the culture that I feel is committing distrocide. > I also believe that the desktop is extremely important. For Linux to be > accepted in place of M$, it *must* be idiot-proof. Unfortunately, the > underpinnings seem to be changing so rapidly, things that used to work don't > anymore, and no one wants to go back and fix them (or at least very few > do). So, the system gets lots of features, but the desktop drifts. M$ is far from idiot proof LOL. Folks mangle it pretty bad just installing and uninstalling software. My first encounter with windoze I kept seeing this HUGE file eating up people's disk space. So I'd delete it after looking at it in a hex editor and seeing it was just random junk. Turned out it was the windoze swap file LOL. What Windoze power user can avoid registry hacks? What registry hacker hasn't killed their system? I remember once being tasked with support of an Windoze web server. I followed the hardening guideline from M$. It hardened all right. So much so I had to wipe and load to even log in to the machine. I should have known better than to trust M$ documentation but I hadn't admin'd a windoze box in a few years and had a mental lapse. > I myself want to work on the desktop (presuming I have the time). > Unfortunately, it seems that this has become an ominous task as I now have > to learn yet another language (gnome script or kde script), and that isn't Dunno about that. With the collapse of Open GL that leaves .qt as the best portable graphics lib out there. Why not write in .QT instead? If not .QT, then GTK is supported under all major desktops. Or you can avoid the low level and write in Gambas or use some of the C++ GUIs and do RAD development. I am about to undertake writing a writer's editor in Gambas. My first big project in it. Still playing with different functionality to try to get off too the right start instead of having to re-write core funcitonality. Most of the functionality is abstracted away, so really aside from minor quicks you are lib independent with most of the code. > on the top of my priority list right now. Working with X, Xt and Motif was > so much easier 10 years ago. I could develop a Motif window much like > Gnome's or KDEs, but it seems that the world had abandoned Motif. By the > time I get Gnome understood, there'll be yet another window manager that > will be the favorite. :-) I had to support some Motif based apps and the lesstiff vrs Motif and what was the third Motif based set of libs? Anyway it was a mess. Some apps ran great on Lesstif, others HAD to have a specific set of libs, all 3 of which did not work and play well together. Motiff's cracking down on patents though is what really killed Motif programming. Caused many apps to get away from Motiff completely. Shrug I haven't done much C coding since Win95 came out. I never felt comfortable with C++'s syntax, never and got paid well to switch to VB around that time. Found with VB I was worried mostly about actual programming not about libs and system level aspects, as such got more done faster with less frustration. Too bad the executable was so bloated and relied on buggy dlls. Matter of preferences. Some folks like ;s at the end of their line. OThers like me find them annoying beyond belief. The way it should be is the language you write it in shouldn't matter much. It all compiles down to the same machine code eventually. The language should only be a matter of what works best for an individual. Unfortunately that's not the case. The C/C++ only syntax of Linux development languages has kept me from contributing as a programmer to Linux. Wasn't until I stumbled upon Gambas that I found a language that wasn't C/C++ based syntax with a decent IDE which I could quickly jump into without getting tangled up in the Motif/OpenGL/GTK/QT/whatever else dependency hell thing. As you said it's just too mcuh work and too much re-learning to mess with. IT is also a weak point on all platforms right now. M$ does a good job of abstracting you away from that mess but it changes the language without warning and drops support for your language without warning. That's how I got into the DBA and Sys Admin racket. I was tired of re-learning M$ languages. By the time I became an expert in them they changed on me. I don't mean improved, I mean the entire language went away. Masm and Quick C gave way to QB. QB gave way to Foxpro which gave way to VB which was replaced by .net. Pointless change. Instead of creating new languages why not fix the old ones? Grre. Anyway, Linux would do well to adopt better abstraction to improve programming output and efficiency. Let the desktop and compiler authors worry about the widgets. App level developers have enough to do dealing with features and functionality. No point inflicting the M$ re-learning curve either. Abstract it away, maybe give the app level programmer the ability to specify the back end libs but don't make us interface with them. I want to work on the program not spend %90 of the time learning lib APIs only to see them change a couple years later and have to rewrite my app. Right now there are 3 biggies, but I'd love for some window manager to come out and blow my personal favorite KDE out of the water. Until then I remain a KDE fan. The underpinnings are for the window manager group to worry about in my opinion. When I talk desktop I'm talking about apps that are happy on any window manager. Core idea is to abstract away from the details on desktop development. After all isn't that what the Window manager is supposed to be about in the first place? OS calls and use of system utilities should be universal. One of my frustrations with distros is that they do not install both KDE and Gnome libs by default. To be honest both have much to offer. Both KDE and Gnome have undertaken a promise of better compatability between each other. Having libs from both present allow you to use the best of breed even if your app winds up running on a minimalistic window manager. Having the libs present allow users to pick and choose. They can run Gthumb AND K3b on the same desktop and suffer no penalties. An app can leverage both K3b and Gthumb and HTML libs to create a static slide show CD with minimal coding and not care what window manager a user is running as long as they didn't uninstall KDE or Gnome libs/apps. Not much point re-inventing the wheel and the more wheels you have to choose from the better. The more wheels the more likely you are to find the one that fits your needs the best. That is also what I mean by desktop. Give a windoze convert the default Fedora desktop and they are lost. Big time lost. Half of the apps they would instantly gravitate too are not there because KDE is not installed. So apps like K3b are not there. Gnome finally has something close to K3b in functionality but I'd still rate K3b way better. KDE based distros again do the same thing. Lots of Gnome apps are really best of breed. Lots of apps are window manager independent. Just by creating a default install which doesn't entail writing a single line of code but that does a better job of streamlining the user interface and shortening the learning curve you are doing work on the desktop. Best of breed discovery and inclusion is another important part of desktop work. Documentation is a crucial aspect of desktop work. It is our documentation the user first see's. Many users do or don't explore Linux based on the distro's default documentation and thier ability to do the things they did under Windoze or the Mac by that documentation. Any time we do not point out best of breed and show alternates we remove one of Linux's big selling points. That is choice. That is the level of customization that comes quickly and easily with Linux. The ability to quckly and easily build a machine that works the way YOU want it too. I disagree users will be confused by choices. People really are not that dumb no matter how often M$ tells us they are. We fall trap to M$ propoganda when we disparage our own user base. We in turn feed that same propoganda. They might not know the difference between a gig and a terrabyte but they know what they want to do and only want to see how to do it. Offering different ways to try something long as it works only gives them more opportunity to customize and find a unique LInux experience that best suites them. > Anyway, I wouldn't say that the desktop is dead; it's just dormant while > other things are more pressing. The official release was that Fedora had stepped out of desktop development. The Linux world was not surprised at all at that announcement and the feeling is that Fedora has officially ceased such work for good. > Thanks for your view, though. It helps me to understand where efforts need > to be placed. Always happy to get on the soapbox :) M$ users absolutely hate me I suspect LOL. Here I have lots of positives to accent. When I get lured to a M$ blog by something I just plain cut them to pieces. Here I hope to point out a road that eases migrations. I do quite a bit of that as I often help people try and hopefully stay with Linux. A dozen or so every year at least. Every so often I get the chance to convert a school or business to Linux. Much of what I've written is just plain feedback from those efforts. Me personally, it's no big deal to add KDE to my installation. I customize my installations anyway. That's just a few more boxes to check. I customize my partitions as well, so changine the default partitions is not a big deal. I would NEVER set a new home user to use the default Fedora partitions. /home should NEVER EVER be on the same partition as /. I've had more users wipe their home dirs while trying different distros than I can count. They fill up the /home partition with .xsessionerror files or downloads or other junk and come a running telling me Linux crashed. They corrupt a partition and with /home on the / parition it makes recovery so much more difficult. I also preach the /data partition because of several reasons. Searching on /home means hitting those thousands of system files. Backups are bloated by things like Mozilla cache files and temp files and installation files. Again recovery is a pain. If your walking a disk and trying to reassmble files and have these zillion temp files to contend with, it makes life SO much more dificult. If on a /data every file is a real file it makes life much easier. Backups are easier. Most users really don't customize the desktop much, but thier data dir is very dynamic. Then there's security issues. Can't count how many times I've caught users making the /home public read write to share documents. I firmly believe cfg files should be seperated from user generated files. As such /home should be split into /home and /data. That is where my perspective is coming from. From front line work getting folks converted over to Linux. I don't know too many old school Nix users. Most LInux users I know are people I personally converted to Linux or people just trying it out who've come to me for help. When I write I write for that user. My suggestions to this and other Linux lists are for that user for the most part. Every so often I'll do a rant about something that annoys me personally but doesn't have a big impact on new Linux users. So my biggest exposure to old school nix is on lists like this. When I don't have time to read lists like this I often forget there are people who never ran windoze as a primary OS or who only did so recently mostly because they are stuck in old school Linux apps. I've met a couple folks who are comfortable with VI but who use Windoze now despite coming from a Nix background because Windoze is "easier". Well yeah if your using old UIs like VI LOL. Yet they are resistant to trying new Linux UIs which blow Windoze UIs away. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't tragic. Oh well. Life happens. It just boggles my mind to see somebody dealing with Notepad's primitive interface when Kedit provides the same ease of use but without the bugs and annoying limitations such as attempting to force an ext down your throat. If you do things old school yeah it's more work. That's the whole point of my soapbox rants about the desktop. I hope to see a better default desktop that will help in migrations. I spend far too much time helping users with basics and lose too many on that stage before I can really show them areas where Linux shines. A better desktop means we get right to the part where Linux shines and skip that ugly painful middle step. From eric at christensenplace.us Fri Jun 20 17:39:15 2008 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:39:15 -0400 Subject: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: <9383263.76831213812728808.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> References: <9383263.76831213812728808.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: <485BEB43.4000903@christensenplace.us> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As this message has gone on to other topics here's what I'm going to do: ~ The editor and writer pages will be removed and the contributor page will be updated. If you are an active member of the DocsProject please put your name on the Contributors page [1]. Thanks, Eric [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors Eric H Christensen wrote: | I was doing some gardening in the wiki this afternoon and noticed something (I think someone else made a note on the wiki about this). There are three pages listing "members" of the Docs Project. There are contributors [1], writers [2], and editors [3]. Are these pages (1) redundant and (2) out dated? I think the answer to both parts of that question are yes in which case I'd like to remove the Writers [2] and the Editors [3] pages and update the Contributors [1] page. | | Any thoughts? | | Eric "Sparks" | | [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors | [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Writers | [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Editors | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhb60IACgkQL5V8yddJCO1hgQCeNyMbnFWstvL1yHA1U5tTwLdz GbkAniLCUL+wffItvIyW7X8NN6HdrqUY =zg1t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Fri Jun 20 17:54:08 2008 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:54:08 +0200 Subject: Future was Re: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1213984448.2099.1.camel@rousalka.okg> Le vendredi 20 juin 2008 ? 13:34 -0400, Dan Smith a ?crit : > Mr Carlson > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:07 PM, Chris Carlson wrote: > > Mr. Smith, > > > > I sure hope what you say isn't true. It may seem like it, but from what > A few months back the Fedora project officially announced it was > bowing out of the Desktop development game :( You keep repeating that. Please also provide a reference for us people who seem to have missed it. -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From couf at skynet.be Fri Jun 20 19:13:06 2008 From: couf at skynet.be (Bart Couvreur) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:13:06 +0200 Subject: Future was Re: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1213989186.3528.8.camel@versuz.couf.be> On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 13:34 -0400, Dan Smith wrote: > Mr Carlson > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:07 PM, Chris Carlson wrote: > > Mr. Smith, > > > > I sure hope what you say isn't true. It may seem like it, but from what > A few months back the Fedora project officially announced it was > bowing out of the Desktop development game :( I was saddened but not > surprised and that seemed to be the general concencus in all the blogs > I read about the announcement. Hmm, this wasn't a Fedora announcement, this was a Red Hat announcement IIRC. Don't mix and match both please. Fedora is still actively geared towards Desktop usage (hence the different Desktop Live CD's and so on). /me will post a more detailed response to this thread in due time Bart -- Bart key fingerprint: 6AAB 544D 3432 D013 776D 3602 ADB6 6B2A D93F 0F93 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From keith at henkell.net Fri Jun 20 19:28:07 2008 From: keith at henkell.net (Keith Henkell) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 15:28:07 -0400 Subject: Future was Re: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: <1213984448.2099.1.camel@rousalka.okg> References: <1213984448.2099.1.camel@rousalka.okg> Message-ID: <563f345d0806201228i323d4096k3cf516dcd7db12c1@mail.gmail.com> I am a bit confused... I thought it was RedHat that was cutting the consumer Linux desktop, not Fedora? Did I miss an announcement? If so, I can't seem to find it in Google. I do know that if you feel strongly about it, you could try to get a SIG started to focus on a consumer "best of breed" type of desktop, possibly as a separate spin, and maybe influence the distro defaults that way. See the section on SIG in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DefiningProjects. From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Fri Jun 20 19:28:50 2008 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:28:50 +0200 Subject: Future was Re: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: <1213989186.3528.8.camel@versuz.couf.be> References: <1213989186.3528.8.camel@versuz.couf.be> Message-ID: <1213990130.3535.8.camel@rousalka.okg> Le vendredi 20 juin 2008 ? 21:13 +0200, Bart Couvreur a ?crit : > Hmm, this wasn't a Fedora announcement, this was a Red Hat announcement > IIRC. Don't mix and match both please. > > Fedora is still actively geared towards Desktop usage (hence the > different Desktop Live CD's and so on). > > /me will post a more detailed response to this thread in due time In the meanwhile this may prove enlightening http://katzj.livejournal.com/430216.html -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 14:57:16 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:57:16 -0400 Subject: Future was Re: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: <563f345d0806201228i323d4096k3cf516dcd7db12c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213984448.2099.1.camel@rousalka.okg> <563f345d0806201228i323d4096k3cf516dcd7db12c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214060236.10391.13.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 15:28 -0400, Keith Henkell wrote: > I am a bit confused... I thought it was RedHat that was cutting the > consumer Linux desktop, not Fedora? Did I miss an announcement? If > so, I can't seem to find it in Google. > > I do know that if you feel strongly about it, you could try to get a > SIG started to focus on a consumer "best of breed" type of desktop, > possibly as a separate spin, and maybe influence the distro defaults > that way. > > See the section on SIG in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DefiningProjects. *FEDORA HAS NOT, AND WILL NOT, ABANDON THE DESKTOP.* I apologize for being blunt, but anyone who says so is wrong. It's that simple. If anyone believes otherwise, I'd be happy to talk with that person privately. Let's keep this list on the topic at hand, which is documentation for Fedora. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 15:03:38 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:03:38 -0400 Subject: Future was Re: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: <1213989186.3528.8.camel@versuz.couf.be> References: <1213989186.3528.8.camel@versuz.couf.be> Message-ID: <1214060618.10391.21.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 21:13 +0200, Bart Couvreur wrote: > On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 13:34 -0400, Dan Smith wrote: > > Mr Carlson > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:07 PM, Chris Carlson wrote: > > > Mr. Smith, > > > > > > I sure hope what you say isn't true. It may seem like it, but from what > > A few months back the Fedora project officially announced it was > > bowing out of the Desktop development game :( I was saddened but not > > surprised and that seemed to be the general concencus in all the blogs > > I read about the announcement. > > Hmm, this wasn't a Fedora announcement, this was a Red Hat announcement > IIRC. Don't mix and match both please. The Red Hat announcement was NOT abandoning the desktop either. The people who misread the announcement -- mostly journalists -- posted headlines that completely misstated what Red Hat announced. Red Hat announced that it was not looking at producing a paid consumer desktop product right now, which is not at all the same thing. Red Hat continues to put a huge amount of money and manpower into creating and improving desktop technologies, like NetworkManager, PolicyKit, PackageKit, GNOME, Bluetooth, and many, many others. Red Hat created or largely funded many of these innovative technologies, and they have been adopted by a number of other Linux distributions as well, including Ubuntu and OpenSuSE. Millions of users worldwide make use of them every day and appreciate how they make the Linux desktop experience truly outstanding. Making the desktop experience great for users is very important to Red Hat -- but the company is not going to change its strategy to start *selling desktop software to users.* Note this has nothing to do with Fedora at all. > Fedora is still actively geared towards Desktop usage (hence the > different Desktop Live CD's and so on). > > /me will post a more detailed response to this thread in due time No need. Let's consider this a dead thread and get back to talking about documentation here, rather than unrelated topics. Thanks! -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From draciron at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 11:20:01 2008 From: draciron at gmail.com (Dan Smith) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 07:20:01 -0400 Subject: Future was Re: Contributors v. Writers v. Editors In-Reply-To: <563f345d0806201228i323d4096k3cf516dcd7db12c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213984448.2099.1.camel@rousalka.okg> <563f345d0806201228i323d4096k3cf516dcd7db12c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That seems like a really good idea actually. Sounds like a way I could contribute far more than I could here. Read up on the docs actually. Seems that to form such a group we need a core of people. Anybody else interested in founding and creating such a group. Don't have a name yet. The duties kind of overlap with some other areas but with the bigger picture in mind rather than the details that seem to swamp the other projects. Core ideas. Developing a best of breed/migration strategy and list of apps, documentation of these apps, practices and strategies to streamline Linux desktop adoption and usage. In short the group would be part testers, part advocates, part documentation and part strategy. One important goal is to work as closely with related groups, especially if work is duplicated. However just as important is to give Fedora an easy migration path for windows and Mac users. Right now none exists. Work will also be as closely as possible done with other distros. Anybody interested email me. We'll put together a charter, members list and submit it along the Fedora guidleines. Paul I'll bow out of the topic as you requested. This post asking for interested members to help found the SIG will be the last post on this. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Keith Henkell wrote: > I am a bit confused... I thought it was RedHat that was cutting the > consumer Linux desktop, not Fedora? Did I miss an announcement? If > so, I can't seem to find it in Google. > > I do know that if you feel strongly about it, you could try to get a > SIG started to focus on a consumer "best of breed" type of desktop, > possibly as a separate spin, and maybe influence the distro defaults > that way. > > See the section on SIG in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DefiningProjects. > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > From bugzilla at redhat.com Sat Jun 28 20:00:37 2008 From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:00:37 -0400 Subject: [Bug 430721] Additional Information Requested for Apache Setup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200806282000.m5SK0bkM000913@bz-web2.app.phx.redhat.com> Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional comments should be made in the comments box of this bug report. Summary: Additional Information Requested for Apache Setup https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=430721 stickster at gmail.com changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |fedora-docs-list at redhat.com AssignedTo|stickster at gmail.com |kwade at redhat.com Component|documentation-guide |docs-requests QAContact|kwade at redhat.com |stickster at gmail.com -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.