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FDSCo Meeting 2008-11-26 IRC log

Wiki-based log here:


Plain text log attached to this email.

Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
12:01 < quaid> <meeting>
12:02  * ke4qqq is here
12:03 < quaid> ok, regadless of who can be here in real time
12:03 < quaid> let's address what is lingering and get a schedule reset
12:03 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting
12:04 < quaid> ok, I'll be editing the task table as we go
12:04 < quaid> first thing is meeting time ...
12:04 < quaid> so what happened for those not paying attention, time rolled back after daylight savings in some parts of the world
12:05 < quaid> and now 1900 UTC is an earlier time on local clocks, but we all keep trying to be here at the same time on our local clocks
12:05 -!- greg_72 [n=gergoe 94-21-25-252 pool digikabel hu] has joined #fedora-docs
12:05 < quaid> we've always followed UTC and ate the problems in consideratio of being a global project
12:06 < quaid> so ... I reckon we just need to rediscipline ourselves to the 'new' time, and need to send out reminders a day in advance
12:07  * quaid holds the mic open for a moment while he does wiki stuff in the bg
12:11 < quaid> sorry, network dropped for a moment
12:11 < greg_72> as I understand this is a meeting for the docs project right now. In spite of this, may I have a question?
12:11 < quaid> greg_72: since we are a bit unorthodox with our meeting today by holding it in this channel, that seems fair -- go ahead
12:13 < greg_72> any experts on writing a docbook xml for a man page? my question is: in the file section, which docbook tag should I use for a file name and its description?
12:13 < quaid> greg_72: I don't know off-hand, but you can see if anyone lurking sees the question.
12:14 < quaid> all: what I'd like to do is schedule *next* meeting  to cover:
12:14 < quaid> * Lessons learned from F10
12:14 < quaid> * Plans for F11
12:14 < quaid> hopefully we'll have more people for input
12:14 < quaid> as for today, I'm going to use the time productively to create our next few months plans
12:15 < quaid> around CMS, git migration, and such
12:17 < quaid> greg_72: if the man page stylesheets are using standard DocBook, it would probably be <filename>, not sure about description; have you been digging through the long list of tags on docbook.org?
12:17  * quaid Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors&action=edit
12:19 -!- kennepede [n=pkennedy 65 122 67 200] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
12:20 < greg_72> quaid: I'm at http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/documentation/reference/html/refsect1.html do not see "filename". I am a newbie in docbook, take a look around
12:22 < quaid> greg_72: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/
12:22 < quaid> scroll down to the ". DocBook Element Reference"
12:22 < quaid> each of those elements then has a page that shows what it can be a child of, what a parent of, and usage examples
12:22 < ke4qqq> so did the publican v. toolchain choice get made?
12:23 < greg_72> quaid: thanks
12:23 < ke4qqq> obviously (I think) we still did toolchain for F10, right?
12:23 < quaid> ke4qqq: strategically, yes, i think so
12:23 < quaid> but tactically, we had to pull back again for F10
12:23 < quaid> otoh, we now have more expertise, experience, and a better quality of Publican in F10
12:23 < ke4qqq> is there a publican session at fudcon yet?
12:23 < quaid> but migrating to publican across the board and testing *all* needs is a good task.
12:23 < quaid> ooh, don't think so
12:24 < quaid> ke4qqq: can I put you on the spot for a moment?
12:25 < quaid> as a newer to Docs contributor
12:25 < ke4qqq> please
12:25 < quaid> ok, so one of the big reasons for going with Publican is that it is an upstream project, wider user base over time, so we can contribute to it but not have to own the entire toolchain.
12:25 < ke4qqq> k
12:25 < quaid> however, we give up control and NIH stuff we know and such.
12:26 < quaid> i.e., swap time tweaking out toolchain in favor of time tweaking on a cantankerous upstream. :)
12:26 < quaid> so ...
12:26 < quaid> in what you have witnessed the last few months
12:26 < quaid> i.e., struggles with fedora-doc-utils and struggles with publican
12:26 < quaid> on channel and on mailing list
12:27 < quaid> which direction would you recommend?  gut instinct, thought, etc.
12:27 < ke4qqq> gut instinct says publican
12:27 < ke4qqq> because docs are published - still a number of unanswered questions in my mind about it
12:27  * stickster returns from phone
12:27 < ke4qqq> but doc-utils seems to require instruction in black magic
12:27 < ke4qqq> and incantations that are really long at times
12:28 < ke4qqq> so it appears as more of a blackbox....
12:28 < ke4qqq> to me at least - granted the source is there, but I didn't have time to
12:28 < ke4qqq> go look under the hood over the past few months
12:28 < ke4qqq> and I suspect that parts of the toolchain that I didn't touch are even worse
12:29  * stickster agrees with ke4qqq that publican is the right way to go, even if it does a number of silly hacky things.
12:29 < stickster> Those will likely be worked out over time
12:29 < stickster> especially if we put ours aside and devote any modicum of that time to helping with publican
12:30 < stickster> And there's nothing saying we couldn't have a second toolchain project
12:30 < ke4qqq> biab
12:30 < stickster> But it would be truly secondary, imho.
12:32  * ke4qqq is back
12:32 < quaid> yay
12:32 < quaid> I think we all concur then
12:33 < quaid> stickster: yes, fedora-doc-utils can have a basic toolchain using whatever is on the system, but it is still useful for other reasons
12:33 < stickster> certainly
12:33  * quaid adds 'Publican migration' to tasks
12:33 < stickster> we just won't concentrate on it for people who want to work on docs in FDP
12:35 < quaid> ok
12:35 < quaid> that's one of our "before FUDCon tasks" I think
12:36 < quaid> then there is the s
12:36  * quaid back
12:36 < quaid> bittorrent ongoing seems to make ssh drop randomly
12:37  * quaid bets it's the Vonage QoS up LAN from him
12:37 < quaid> stickster: help me list out what we said we'd work on postF10
12:37 < quaid> (other than a lessons learned and F11 planning, for next week)
12:37 < quaid> * CMS
12:37 < ke4qqq> stickster: will there be a person at fudcon to teach us publican?
12:38 < quaid> * quaid tells FDP about plans for growing the project
12:38 < quaid> ke4qqq: jsmith, stickster, or I can probably do it
12:38 < quaid> jsmith seems to have the most recent experience
12:38 < stickster> I'm twisting jsmith-away's arm to be there :-)
12:39 < stickster> quaid: * make damn sure important docs have a team behind them, or announce their droppage to the whole project
12:39 < stickster> or (c) move them to wiki for prosperity
12:39 < stickster> (blecch)
12:40 < quaid> ok, what is a reasonable timeline for that?
12:40 < stickster> by Dec. 15th, I'd say
12:40 < stickster> No April surprises that way.
12:41  * quaid pondering on that 
12:41 < quaid> maybe a soft drop for 15 Dec, and hard drop after FUDCon, a/k/a "Last Chanceville"
12:41 < quaid> ?
12:42 < ke4qqq> define 'important docs'?
12:42 < quaid> um ... all of them?
12:42 < ke4qqq> lol ok
12:43 < quaid> well, we don't really have an extraneous ones
12:43 < ke4qqq> is there a listing of docs we maintain, a canonical list?
12:43 < quaid> ah, probably not exactly
12:44 < stickster> The front page of the DocsProject had one I believe.
12:44  * quaid looking there now
12:44 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject#The_Documents
12:44 < stickster> ke4qqq: Really, it's the sum of what you see at cvs.fedoraproject.org under "docs" cvsroot, and the release notes and IG.
12:44 < quaid> but that's not entirely clear that way
12:44 < stickster> and the selinux-guide assuming we're helping murray with that
12:45 -!- daMaestro [n=jon fedora/damaestro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:45 < quaid> stickster: here's a question ... does any document with the Fedora logo on it belong in FDP?
12:45 -!- daMaestro [n=jon fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora-docs
12:45 < stickster> Yes.
12:46 < stickster> If it has the Fedora logo the FDP -- assuming one exists -- should be accountable for its accuracy and timeliness.
12:46 < quaid> I concur.
12:46 < stickster> If the FDP ceases to exist, then so should that guideline, and it means that whoever wants to publish under the Fedora logo is going to need to have some sort of charter to doso.
12:46 < stickster> s/doso/do so/
12:46 < quaid> so that makes the Fedora SELinux User Guide within our purview
12:47 < quaid> there is also all the 'Linux Deployment Guide' content now out there we can draw from
12:47 < stickster> I think we should be incented to work on it because (1) it's current, (2) it's been gifted by someone who cared enough to put the time into it, and (3) that person (mdious) actually does hang out here and collaborate with us
12:48 < quaid> +1
12:48  * quaid reminds himself that guide needs some splash this release
12:48 < quaid> time for me to dust off the ol' blog and stuff
12:49 -!- dbewley1 [n=dlbewley c-71-197-86-51 hsd1 ca comcast net] has joined #fedora-docs
12:49 < quaid> hey dbewley1 
12:50 < quaid> ok, I've got that deadline and stuff in the tasks now
12:50 < quaid> is that all the "now that F10 is done" stuff?
12:51 < quaid> ok
12:52 < dbewley1> greets
12:52  * stickster is torn in several directions right now, sorry
12:52 < quaid> s'ok
12:52 < quaid> one thing that is great btw ...
12:53 < quaid> this release we had 3x the participation 
12:53 < quaid> cf. the last few releases
12:53 < quaid> so our task is keeping and increasing momentum
12:53 < quaid> v. 'drag it up from the mud with bootstraps' :)
12:53  * stickster brb, has to close down and ssh in from elsewhere
12:53 < quaid> actually, it might be more than 3x, but it's pretty significant in comparison
12:53 -!- stickster is now known as stickster_afk
12:54 < quaid> and man ... the bugs are rolling in for the IG and relnotes, that seems like more than usual
12:55 < quaid> which is not intended as a negative reflection :)
12:55 < quaid> I don't think we have more bugs than usual, just more interest in helping us fix them
12:56 < ke4qqq> and thats a good thing
12:56 < dbewley1> should we not make any changes to F10 wiki relnotes at this point? Like including things from Common Bugs page?
12:57 < quaid> dbewley1: wiki beats are done, all changes should be to the XML
12:58 < quaid> dbewley1: good question in that we do want to discuss the plan for the next update of f-r-n package + web update
12:58 < quaid> dbewley1: as for common bugs, if there needs to be changes in the relnotes, someone who cares about the bug needs to file a bug report
12:58 < dbewley1> quaid: that answers that. :) so edits should go on common bugs and features pages etc for now
12:58 < quaid> one of the reasons for the wiki page is that it is easier to update than the relnotes; hopefully those bugs get fixed instead :)
12:58 < quaid> dbewley1: yes
12:58 < dbewley1> quaid: no prob. just added something to common bugs earlier when someone wanted it on the relnotes
13:00 < quaid> we can spin a new web update relatively easily, and there are some open bugs
13:00 < quaid> be a good learning experience for anyone to do the fixes in the XML, then I can republish
13:01 < ke4qqq> ohhh so would pushing the web updates
13:01 < dbewley1> that's a hill i don't have time to climb myself anytime soon :) learn git and docbook etc
13:01  * ke4qqq would like to watch in screen
13:02 < quaid> hmm, yeah
13:03 < ke4qqq> though how much of that matters if we move to publican?
13:03 < quaid> or using 'script' and publishing it out
13:03 < quaid> well, good question
13:03 < quaid> actually, it all still applies
13:04 < quaid> it's the CMS that replaces the web publishing
13:05 < ke4qqq> hmmmm ok
13:05 < quaid> and ... man, it's some deep black magic again, not sure I want to waste anyone else's braincells :)
13:06 < ke4qqq> perhaps it's time better spent learning the CMS
13:07 < quaid> yeah
13:08 -!- mhideo [n=mhideo nat/redhat/x-81ad4e02dde4f83c] has joined #fedora-docs
13:12 < quaid> ok, tasks updated for moving forward
13:12 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors
13:12  * quaid actually wrote 'moving forward' darnit
13:15 -!- kennepede [n=pkennedy pkennedy dsl visi com] has joined #fedora-docs
13:16 < quaid> ok, that's enough for the day :)
13:17 < quaid> anything else or shall I close the meeting loop?
13:17  * quaid does a countdown in his head
13:18 < quaid> done!
13:18 < quaid> </meeting>

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