From mospina at redhat.com  Wed Oct  1 00:38:03 2008
From: mospina at redhat.com (Manuel Ospina)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:38:03 +1000
Subject: New language codes?
In-Reply-To: <26091802.2031222759719868.JavaMail.asgeirf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <26091802.2031222759719868.JavaMail.asgeirf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <48E2C66B.6090302@redhat.com>

Hi,

I would prefer to have a unified code for Spanish (es), without the 
country code. Contributors are from different places and using the 
country code may annoy some of them.

Regards,
Manuel

Asgeir Frimannsson escribi?:
> ----- "Paul W. Frields" <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:01:07PM +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
>>     
>>> Paul W. Frields ????????:
>>>       
>>>> If the Docs Project is able to complete a transition to Publican
>>>>         
>> for
>>     
>>>> the release notes for Fedora 10, many of our language codes will
>>>> change to ISO standards.  This includes moving from en_US to en-US,
>>>>         
>> as
>>     
>>>> in "Release_Notes-en-US.txt".
>>>>
>>>> It would probably be good if any tools used to spin or release the
>>>> distribution get updated to support both of these options.  I
>>>>         
>> would
>>     
>>>> suggest shifting them to use the ISO standard, en-US, first and
>>>>         
>> the
>>     
>>>> try falling back to en_US.  That way, if we fail utterly and have
>>>>         
>> to
>>     
>>>> drop back to the old way of doing business, the results will still
>>>> land properly.
>>>>         
>>> I've got a favor to ask.
>>> Please make Japanese as ja-JP, not ja as current.
>>>       
>> Asgeir is working on updating the language list to the proper ISO
>> codes now, I believe.  That would certainly include ja-JP! :-)
>>     
>
> Here are the proposed renames. I'm not an expert, and some codes would make more sense without a country-qualifier I guess (country qualifier is ISO-wise optional).
>
>     bn_IN -> bn-IN
>     ca -> ca-ES
>     cs -> cs-CZ
>     da -> da-DK
>     de -> de-DE
>     el -> el-GR
>     es -> es-ES
>     fi -> fi-FI
>     fr -> fr-FR
>     gu -> gu-IN
>     he -> he-IL
>     hi_IN -> hi-IN
>     hr -> hr-HR
>     hu -> hu-HU
>     id -> id-ID
>     it -> it-IT
>     ja -> ja-JP
>     ms -> ms-MY
>     nb -> nb-NO
>     nl -> nl-NL
>     pa -> pa-IN
>     pl -> pl-PL
>     pt_BR -> pt-BR
>     pt -> pt-PT
>     ru -> ru-RU
>     sk -> sk-SK
>     sr -> sr-RS
>     sr_Latn -> sr_Latn-RS
>     sv -> sv-SE
>     ta -> ta-IN
>     uk -> uk-UA
>     zh_CN -> zh-CN
>     zh_TW -> zh-TW
>
> cheers,
> asgeir
>
> --
> Fedora-trans-list mailing list
> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list
>   



From dimitris at glezos.com  Wed Oct  1 00:43:15 2008
From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 03:43:15 +0300
Subject: New language codes?
In-Reply-To: <48E2C66B.6090302@redhat.com>
References: <26091802.2031222759719868.JavaMail.asgeirf@localhost.localdomain>
	<48E2C66B.6090302@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <6d4237680809301743x594a6deeg40647ddd99c91dd0@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/1 Manuel Ospina <mospina at redhat.com>:
> I would prefer to have a unified code for Spanish (es), without the country
> code. Contributors are from different places and using the country code may
> annoy some of them.

Same applies to Greek.

-d


-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/

"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--



From dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu  Wed Oct  1 05:55:02 2008
From: dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu (Dale Bewley)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:55:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: self introduction and rel notes advice
In-Reply-To: <939721082.91591222840316877.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <1272399393.91611222840502108.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>

Howdy.

I guess I'm supposed to talk about me a little bit first.
I switched from Slackware on a pile of floppies to RH 3.3 back in the day. 
I contributed a couple of RPMs to redhat-contribs. I ran RH through 9, and
I've been using Fedora since Core 1. I'm versed in system administration, 
networking, and programming (scripting mostly). I run a public mirror. blah de blah...

Anyway, I started the FWN Virtualization Beat[1], and have been doing it
for a few weeks now. Jason Taylor saw it, and asked if I wouldn't mind working
on the Fedora 10 Virtualization Release Notes[2]. I would like to do that.
I have started to gather up info, and scratch together a very rough draft
on my user page.[3] I'll move it to the Beat page soon; when it's less scratchy.

A couple of questions.

When describing new features of a release, should one describe the
improvements between the feature as it existed at F9 release time or as it 
exists in the most recent F9 updates? I assume the former. 

I'm dense. Can someone explain the schedule[4] to me? Apparently the beats
were recently combined on 9/22. Is the next deadline 10/2 (Translation 
Freeze)? And the final deadline appears to be 10/29?

Thanks!

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Beats/Virtualization
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Virtualization
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DaleBewley#Virtualization_Release_Notes
[4] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule
--
Dale Bewley - Unix Administrator - Shields Library - UC Davis
GPG: 0xB098A0F3 0D5A 9AEB 43F4 F84C 7EFD  1753 064D 2583 B098 A0F3



From asgeirf at redhat.com  Wed Oct  1 05:58:32 2008
From: asgeirf at redhat.com (Asgeir Frimannsson)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 01:58:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: F10 Documentation
In-Reply-To: <1222806086.3452.89.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <6833144.2191222840575207.JavaMail.asgeirf@localhost.localdomain>

----- "Karsten 'quaid' Wade" <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-09-30 at 05:06 -0400, Asgeir Frimannsson wrote:
> > > Would it be ok If I set up a cron job that:
> > > 1) Puts translation statistics on a public web page (to make it
> > > simple, e.g. my fedorapeople web space)
> > > 2) Sends updated statistics to fedora-trans-list daily, or even
> after
> > > each 'submission' depending on how much we want to spam that
> list...
> > > 
> > > In addition, we could add a link to this stats through the front
> page
> > > of translate.fedoraproject.org
> 
> I was more hoping we'd have the actual content on the appropriate
> module
> page at translate.fedoraproject.org.  Are those pages too dynamic, or
> can we insert XHTML specific to a module?  I'm thinking specifically
> of
> an <iframe> or similar construct to pull in a specific cron-job
> output.
> 
> If that is not sanely doable, maybe a really big and obvious link on
> each of the modules page?
> 
> My goal is to be able to have Translators reliably hit one URL or
> family
> of URLs for their status/updates/submitting.  We can continue to
> switch
> out the under parts of translate.fedoraproject.org, as long as the
> REST
> URLs can stay the same.  Does that make sense as a goal for F10 docs
> l10n from where we are today?

At this stage, the docs-modules won't show up at all in DL if we can't generate some DL-friendly stats. And I'm not volunteering to fix DL to support this, and I rather see DL die before F11 translations start :)

What I can do is provide publican-statistics like the following:
http://asgeirf.fedorapeople.org/docstats/release-notes.master/

These stats are updated hourly, but could do it more often (polling the upstream repo for changes is a rather cheap operation)

I'll see if I can find some time looking into cleaning up these stats a bit, giving translators:
- URL to the git-web-checkout for each PO file, 
- URL to the module-specific page for transifex. 
- List of documents we provide stats for

It would be nice to have this more integrated with DL, but personally I don't have time to do this.

cheers,
asgeir




From emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr  Wed Oct  1 07:42:12 2008
From: emmanuel.seyman at club-internet.fr (Emmanuel Seyman)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:42:12 +0200
Subject: F10 Beta release
In-Reply-To: <48E2A14C.8030809@redhat.com>
References: <20080930214030.GL22245@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
	<48E2A14C.8030809@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20081001074212.GA6631@orient.maison.lan>

* John Poelstra [01/10/2008 01:55] :
>
> Does anyone know how to format the URL so it goes straight to "new bug  
> for rawhide?"

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora&version=rawhide

Emmanuel



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Wed Oct  1 14:25:56 2008
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:55:56 +0530
Subject: self introduction and rel notes advice
In-Reply-To: <1272399393.91611222840502108.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
References: <1272399393.91611222840502108.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <48E38874.9090405@fedoraproject.org>

Dale Bewley wrote:

> 
> When describing new features of a release, should one describe the
> improvements between the feature as it existed at F9 release time or as it 
> exists in the most recent F9 updates? I assume the former. 

Release time is what we cover. That is we compare and note down details 
that is different between Fedora 9 GA and what is expected in Fedora 10 GA.

Rahul



From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 19:38:39 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 15:38:39 -0400
Subject: L10n and Docs fallback
Message-ID: <20081001193839.GC10135@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>

We have several problems currently brewing with using hosted git repos
of Publican-based documents with L10n's Transifex (Tx).

1.  Publican uses multiple POT files instead of the single POT model.
    Transifex apparently does not currently handle multiple POT files
    well.

2.  The current (obsolete but soon to be replaced) Damned Lies (DL)
    used in L10n doesn't respond well to multiple POT files either.

3.  There may also be some issues in Tx about support for the ISO
    language codes used in Publican.

I've asked Dimitris Glezos to give us an idea how much work is
involved in fixing each of these factors.

Problem #1 is a high risk, and if we can't solve it quickly we have to
fall back to our original methodologies.

Problem #2 is lower risk, because DL is being obsoleted anyway, and Tx
will soon take over its duties.  Plus there is the possibility of a
low-drag workaround, which I think some folks are working on now.

Problem #3 is medium-to-high risk -- again, translators need to be
able to get at the content.

I expect Dimitris, Asgeir, and other L10n leaders will respond to this
thread with some suggestions for (1) some estimate of how big these
problems really are, (2) whether they can have the higher-risk ones
repaired in the next, say, 1-2 weeks.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 22:12:55 2008
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason Taylor)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:12:55 -0400
Subject: self introduction and rel notes advice
In-Reply-To: <1272399393.91611222840502108.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
References: <1272399393.91611222840502108.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <1222899175.3251.4.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-09-30 at 22:55 -0700, Dale Bewley wrote:
> Howdy.
> 
> I guess I'm supposed to talk about me a little bit first.
> I switched from Slackware on a pile of floppies to RH 3.3 back in the day. 
> I contributed a couple of RPMs to redhat-contribs. I ran RH through 9, and
> I've been using Fedora since Core 1. I'm versed in system administration, 
> networking, and programming (scripting mostly). I run a public mirror. blah de blah...
> 
> Anyway, I started the FWN Virtualization Beat[1], and have been doing it
> for a few weeks now. Jason Taylor saw it, and asked if I wouldn't mind working
> on the Fedora 10 Virtualization Release Notes[2]. I would like to do that.
> I have started to gather up info, and scratch together a very rough draft
> on my user page.[3] I'll move it to the Beat page soon; when it's less scratchy.

Welcome aboard! The work is most appreciated. If you make an oops or
don't like what you did, it is quite easy to undo the changes. 'Tis the
magic of wiki! :)

> A couple of questions.
> 
> When describing new features of a release, should one describe the
> improvements between the feature as it existed at F9 release time or as it 
> exists in the most recent F9 updates? I assume the former. 

Ideally, it would describe features as they differ from current release in its updated form.


> I'm dense. Can someone explain the schedule[4] to me? Apparently the beats
> were recently combined on 9/22. Is the next deadline 10/2 (Translation 
> Freeze)? And the final deadline appears to be 10/29?

New schedule is at
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-docs-tasks.html

> Thanks!
> 
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Beats/Virtualization
> [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Virtualization
> [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DaleBewley#Virtualization_Release_Notes
> [4] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule
> --
> Dale Bewley - Unix Administrator - Shields Library - UC Davis
> GPG: 0xB098A0F3 0D5A 9AEB 43F4 F84C 7EFD  1753 064D 2583 B098 A0F3
> 
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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 22:17:06 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:17:06 +1000
Subject: prompts in command examples
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

The Red Hat documentation team recently had a discussion about using
prompts (such as "$" and "#") in command examples.

Joshua "top-posting ftw" Wulf came up with the following, and everyone
agreed (I think...):

---

OK, here it is:

When it's a command that should (could) be cut and pasted, it should
have no prompt. Example:

ls -Z /tmp

When it's a record of an interactive session then the prompt should be
included to distinguish commands from output. Example:

# ls -Z /tmp

-rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   bar
-rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   foo

And when you want to make some commentary on that, you close the box
and then speak.

---

Does anyone have any suggestions or objections?

Cheers.



From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 22:27:35 2008
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason Taylor)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:27:35 -0400
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> The Red Hat documentation team recently had a discussion about using
> prompts (such as "$" and "#") in command examples.
> 
> Joshua "top-posting ftw" Wulf came up with the following, and everyone
> agreed (I think...):
> 
> ---
> 
> OK, here it is:
> 
> When it's a command that should (could) be cut and pasted, it should
> have no prompt. Example:
> 
> ls -Z /tmp
> 
> When it's a record of an interactive session then the prompt should be
> included to distinguish commands from output. Example:
> 
> # ls -Z /tmp
> 
> -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   bar
> -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   foo
> 
> And when you want to make some commentary on that, you close the box
> and then speak.
> 
> ---
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions or objections?
> 
> Cheers.

Commentary being along the lines of whether or not the command
should/has to be run as root or normal user?

-Jason
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From narendra.sisodiya at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 22:38:45 2008
From: narendra.sisodiya at gmail.com (narendra sisodiya)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 04:08:45 +0530
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
Message-ID: <e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>

IMHO,
rule 1 = If a normal user can run a command then it must have $ prompt. ex
ls -l
rule 2 = If a command need root privilege to run, it must have # prompt   ex
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda
rule3 = rule 1 has high priority then rule 2.

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 3:57 AM, Jason Taylor <jmtaylor90 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > The Red Hat documentation team recently had a discussion about using
> > prompts (such as "$" and "#") in command examples.
> >
> > Joshua "top-posting ftw" Wulf came up with the following, and everyone
> > agreed (I think...):
> >
> > ---
> >
> > OK, here it is:
> >
> > When it's a command that should (could) be cut and pasted, it should
> > have no prompt. Example:
> >
> > ls -Z /tmp
> >
> > When it's a record of an interactive session then the prompt should be
> > included to distinguish commands from output. Example:
> >
> > # ls -Z /tmp
> >
> > -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   bar
> > -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   foo
> >
> > And when you want to make some commentary on that, you close the box
> > and then speak.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Does anyone have any suggestions or objections?
> >
> > Cheers.
>
> Commentary being along the lines of whether or not the command
> should/has to be run as root or normal user?
>
> -Jason
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
????[ Narendra Sisodiya ]???????????????
?     http://narendra.techfandu.org
?     http://www.lug-iitd.org
?????????????[ +91-93790-75930 ]???????
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct  1 22:58:10 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:58:10 -0700
Subject: working on scheduling via gobby 2300 UTC 1 Oct (right now)
Message-ID: <1222901890.3452.157.camel@calliope.phig.org>

Sorry for the late notice, if you want to lurk, John Poelstra and myself
are going to be working on the Docs schedule for the rest of F10.  It is
going to be via gobby (shared document editing), drop by #fedora-docs
for instructions on joining gobby.fedoraproject.org if you don't already
know.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct  1 23:04:43 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:04:43 -0700
Subject: F10 Beta release
In-Reply-To: <20081001074212.GA6631@orient.maison.lan>
References: <20080930214030.GL22245@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
	<48E2A14C.8030809@redhat.com> <20081001074212.GA6631@orient.maison.lan>
Message-ID: <1222902283.3452.161.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 09:42 +0200, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> * John Poelstra [01/10/2008 01:55] :
> >
> > Does anyone know how to format the URL so it goes straight to "new bug  
> > for rawhide?"
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Fedora&version=rawhide
> 
> Emmanuel

It is that way in the Beta release notes, and I adjusted it for the
release announcement to help us remember next time.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cambridge_(F-10)_Beta_release_announcement

Thanks - Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 00:11:29 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:11:29 +1000
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810011711v3513ca3bk34cf12386cfb83b1@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 8:27 AM, Jason Taylor <jmtaylor90 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> The Red Hat documentation team recently had a discussion about using
>> prompts (such as "$" and "#") in command examples.
>>
>> Joshua "top-posting ftw" Wulf came up with the following, and everyone
>> agreed (I think...):
>>
>> ---
>>
>> OK, here it is:
>>
>> When it's a command that should (could) be cut and pasted, it should
>> have no prompt. Example:
>>
>> ls -Z /tmp
>>
>> When it's a record of an interactive session then the prompt should be
>> included to distinguish commands from output. Example:
>>
>> # ls -Z /tmp
>>
>> -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   bar
>> -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   foo
>>
>> And when you want to make some commentary on that, you close the box
>> and then speak.
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Does anyone have any suggestions or objections?
>>
>> Cheers.
>
> Commentary being along the lines of whether or not the command
> should/has to be run as root or normal user?
>
> -Jason
>
Commentary was regarding (sorry Karsten)
<http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/rhlcommon-chapter-0017.html#RHLCOMMON-SECTION-0070>,
which has comments (# blah blah blah) in the example output.



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 00:12:48 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:12:48 +1000
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/2 narendra sisodiya <narendra.sisodiya at gmail.com>:
> IMHO,
> rule 1 = If a normal user can run a command then it must have $ prompt. ex
> ls -l
> rule 2 = If a command need root privilege to run, it must have # prompt   ex
> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda
> rule3 = rule 1 has high priority then rule 2.

Someone brought up the point that there are a lot of people
complaining on forums and getting the response "the '$' is the prompt,
not part of the command", so if a user needs to copy and paste, it is
easier if the prompt isn't there...

>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 3:57 AM, Jason Taylor <jmtaylor90 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > The Red Hat documentation team recently had a discussion about using
>> > prompts (such as "$" and "#") in command examples.
>> >
>> > Joshua "top-posting ftw" Wulf came up with the following, and everyone
>> > agreed (I think...):
>> >
>> > ---
>> >
>> > OK, here it is:
>> >
>> > When it's a command that should (could) be cut and pasted, it should
>> > have no prompt. Example:
>> >
>> > ls -Z /tmp
>> >
>> > When it's a record of an interactive session then the prompt should be
>> > included to distinguish commands from output. Example:
>> >
>> > # ls -Z /tmp
>> >
>> > -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   bar
>> > -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   foo
>> >
>> > And when you want to make some commentary on that, you close the box
>> > and then speak.
>> >
>> > ---
>> >
>> > Does anyone have any suggestions or objections?
>> >
>> > Cheers.
>>
>> Commentary being along the lines of whether or not the command
>> should/has to be run as root or normal user?
>>
>> -Jason
>>
>> --
>> fedora-docs-list mailing list
>> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
>> To unsubscribe:
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>
>
>
> --
> ????[ Narendra Sisodiya ]???????????????
> ?     http://narendra.techfandu.org
> ?     http://www.lug-iitd.org
> ?????????????[ +91-93790-75930 ]???????
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



From narendra.sisodiya at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 01:26:08 2008
From: narendra.sisodiya at gmail.com (narendra sisodiya)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:56:08 +0530
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e3fb97f30810011826k551c82bdu37bf72f0580f0cda@mail.gmail.com>

Possible Solutions could be
1) make a png image of "#" and  "$" sign, and display as image, instead of
text, This will disallow user to paste prompt while copy paste. He will be
able to select all line of shell code but images will not be pasted on text
screen or text editor. (NOT applicable to rich editor)
2) give code in two tab, one one will be visible at a time , both will be
identical in term of content but one will not be having prompt sign. When
page will load User will see content of tab which has "prompts" but when he
will try to copy paste , the focus event "toggle" the tabs so user will copy
the content without tabs. ( A small JavaScript can do these thing all places
)
(Note : take consideration to html to other format export, user can see both
tab )

I hope I am not out of context..

2008/10/2 Murray McAllister <murray.mcallister at gmail.com>

> 2008/10/2 narendra sisodiya <narendra.sisodiya at gmail.com>:
> > IMHO,
> > rule 1 = If a normal user can run a command then it must have $ prompt.
> ex
> > ls -l
> > rule 2 = If a command need root privilege to run, it must have # prompt
> ex
> > dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda
> > rule3 = rule 1 has high priority then rule 2.
>
> Someone brought up the point that there are a lot of people
> complaining on forums and getting the response "the '$' is the prompt,
> not part of the command", so if a user needs to copy and paste, it is
> easier if the prompt isn't there...
>
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 3:57 AM, Jason Taylor <jmtaylor90 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > The Red Hat documentation team recently had a discussion about using
> >> > prompts (such as "$" and "#") in command examples.
> >> >
> >> > Joshua "top-posting ftw" Wulf came up with the following, and everyone
> >> > agreed (I think...):
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> >
> >> > OK, here it is:
> >> >
> >> > When it's a command that should (could) be cut and pasted, it should
> >> > have no prompt. Example:
> >> >
> >> > ls -Z /tmp
> >> >
> >> > When it's a record of an interactive session then the prompt should be
> >> > included to distinguish commands from output. Example:
> >> >
> >> > # ls -Z /tmp
> >> >
> >> > -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   bar
> >> > -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   foo
> >> >
> >> > And when you want to make some commentary on that, you close the box
> >> > and then speak.
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> >
> >> > Does anyone have any suggestions or objections?
> >> >
> >> > Cheers.
> >>
> >> Commentary being along the lines of whether or not the command
> >> should/has to be run as root or normal user?
> >>
> >> -Jason
> >>
> >> --
> >> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> >> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> >> To unsubscribe:
> >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ????[ Narendra Sisodiya ]???????????????
> > ?     http://narendra.techfandu.org
> > ?     http://www.lug-iitd.org
> > ?????????????[ +91-93790-75930 ]???????
> >
> > --
> > fedora-docs-list mailing list
> > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > To unsubscribe:
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> >
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
????[ Narendra Sisodiya ]???????????????
?     http://narendra.techfandu.org
?     http://www.lug-iitd.org
?????????????[ +91-93790-75930 ]???????
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From danielsmw at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 01:32:22 2008
From: danielsmw at gmail.com (Matthew Daniels)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:32:22 -0400
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <e3fb97f30810011826k551c82bdu37bf72f0580f0cda@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3fb97f30810011826k551c82bdu37bf72f0580f0cda@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8E3F2AF0-45E8-4579-BE1D-16E136E50665@gmail.com>

I'm pretty happy with the original proposal.  The prompt character  
makes sense if you're copying and pasting console output to  
demonstrate a point, but if you're advising a person to execute a  
command, the prompt isn't necessary.  The idea that it should be in a  
prompt is relayed through context.

On Oct 1, 2008, at 9:26 PM, narendra sisodiya wrote:

> Possible Solutions could be
> 1) make a png image of "#" and  "$" sign, and display as image,  
> instead of text, This will disallow user to paste prompt while copy  
> paste. He will be able to select all line of shell code but images  
> will not be pasted on text screen or text editor. (NOT applicable to  
> rich editor)
> 2) give code in two tab, one one will be visible at a time , both  
> will be identical in term of content but one will not be having  
> prompt sign. When page will load User will see content of tab which  
> has "prompts" but when he will try to copy paste , the focus event  
> "toggle" the tabs so user will copy the content without tabs. ( A  
> small JavaScript can do these thing all places )
> (Note : take consideration to html to other format export, user can  
> see both tab )
>
> I hope I am not out of context..
>
> 2008/10/2 Murray McAllister <murray.mcallister at gmail.com>
> 2008/10/2 narendra sisodiya <narendra.sisodiya at gmail.com>:
> > IMHO,
> > rule 1 = If a normal user can run a command then it must have $  
> prompt. ex
> > ls -l
> > rule 2 = If a command need root privilege to run, it must have #  
> prompt   ex
> > dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda
> > rule3 = rule 1 has high priority then rule 2.
>
> Someone brought up the point that there are a lot of people
> complaining on forums and getting the response "the '$' is the prompt,
> not part of the command", so if a user needs to copy and paste, it is
> easier if the prompt isn't there...
>
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 3:57 AM, Jason Taylor  
> <jmtaylor90 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > The Red Hat documentation team recently had a discussion about  
> using
> >> > prompts (such as "$" and "#") in command examples.
> >> >
> >> > Joshua "top-posting ftw" Wulf came up with the following, and  
> everyone
> >> > agreed (I think...):
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> >
> >> > OK, here it is:
> >> >
> >> > When it's a command that should (could) be cut and pasted, it  
> should
> >> > have no prompt. Example:
> >> >
> >> > ls -Z /tmp
> >> >
> >> > When it's a record of an interactive session then the prompt  
> should be
> >> > included to distinguish commands from output. Example:
> >> >
> >> > # ls -Z /tmp
> >> >
> >> > -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   bar
> >> > -rw-rw-r--  auser   auser   user_u:object_r:user_home_t   foo
> >> >
> >> > And when you want to make some commentary on that, you close  
> the box
> >> > and then speak.
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> >
> >> > Does anyone have any suggestions or objections?
> >> >
> >> > Cheers.
> >>
> >> Commentary being along the lines of whether or not the command
> >> should/has to be run as root or normal user?
> >>
> >> -Jason
> >>
> >> --
> >> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> >> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> >> To unsubscribe:
> >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ????[ Narendra Sisodiya ]???????????????
> > ?     http://narendra.techfandu.org
> > ?     http://www.lug-iitd.org
> > ?????????????[ +91-93790-75930 ]???????
> >
> > --
> > fedora-docs-list mailing list
> > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > To unsubscribe:
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> >
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>
>
>
> -- 
> ????[ Narendra Sisodiya ]???????????????
> ?     http://narendra.techfandu.org
> ?     http://www.lug-iitd.org
> ?????????????[ +91-93790-75930 ]???????
> -- 
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list

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From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 02:05:28 2008
From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?IlNhbmthcnNoYW4gKOCmuOCmmeCnjeCmleCmsOCnjeCmt+Cmoyki?=)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 07:35:28 +0530
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48E42C68.3010503@gmail.com>

Murray McAllister wrote:

> The Red Hat documentation team recently had a discussion about using
> prompts (such as "$" and "#") in command examples.

If this is based on the feedback that a lot of users copy-paste the
commands into their shells and receive an error stating that the prompt
shouldn't be in, then it makes sense to remove the prompt and add
comments/narration.

However, this does bring out a separate point altogether - aren't users
expected to *not* do copy-paste and type in the commands (for better
learning etc etc) ? :)

-- 

http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published
http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science
http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work




From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 02:32:42 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:32:42 -0400
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <8E3F2AF0-45E8-4579-BE1D-16E136E50665@gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3fb97f30810011826k551c82bdu37bf72f0580f0cda@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E3F2AF0-45E8-4579-BE1D-16E136E50665@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081002023242.GJ23900@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>

On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 09:32:22PM -0400, Matthew Daniels wrote:
> I'm pretty happy with the original proposal.  The prompt character makes 
> sense if you're copying and pasting console output to demonstrate a 
> point, but if you're advising a person to execute a command, the prompt 
> isn't necessary.  The idea that it should be in a prompt is relayed 
> through context.

I agree.

However, we shouldn't have users scratching their heads about what's
run by root and what's not.  Instead, use the following text:

'''
To restart the iptables firewall, run the following command.  Provide
the password for the root account at the prompt.

  su -c '/sbin/service iptables restart'

'''

Note that the su command removes the need for the user to look for
niggling prompt details.  It also clarifies that the user should
expect a prompt for the root password.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Oct  2 16:08:24 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:08:24 -0700
Subject: version comparison guidance (was Re: self introduction and rel
	notes advice)
In-Reply-To: <1222899175.3251.4.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
References: <1272399393.91611222840502108.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
	<1222899175.3251.4.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1222963704.3452.167.camel@calliope.phig.org>

We have ourselves a good ol' fashioned disagreement, backed by a lack of
guidelines and consistency!  Let's have a closer look ...

On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 18:12 -0400, Jason Taylor wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-09-30 at 22:55 -0700, Dale Bewley wrote:
> > 
> > When describing new features of a release, should one describe the
> > improvements between the feature as it existed at F9 release time or as it 
> > exists in the most recent F9 updates? I assume the former. 
> 
> Ideally, it would describe features as they differ from current release in its updated form.

... and ...

On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 19:55 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Dale Bewley wrote:
> 
> > 
> > When describing new features of a release, should one describe the
> > improvements between the feature as it existed at F9 release time or as it 
> > exists in the most recent F9 updates? I assume the former. 
> 
> Release time is what we cover. That is we compare and note down details 
> that is different between Fedora 9 GA and what is expected in Fedora 10 GA.

I would say ... sometimes we do one, sometimes the other, and we haven't
been very strict.

In general, the marketing approach is to talk about GA to GA.  For
documentation, I could see arguments either way.

Dale - great question!  Let's hash it out on list, set the guidance, and
then you'll know.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Oct  2 16:18:20 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:18:20 -0700
Subject: L10n and Docs fallback
In-Reply-To: <20081001193839.GC10135@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
References: <20081001193839.GC10135@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
Message-ID: <1222964300.3452.178.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 15:38 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> We have several problems currently brewing with using hosted git repos
> of Publican-based documents with L10n's Transifex (Tx).
> 
> 1.  Publican uses multiple POT files instead of the single POT model.
>     Transifex apparently does not currently handle multiple POT files
>     well.
> 
> 2.  The current (obsolete but soon to be replaced) Damned Lies (DL)
>     used in L10n doesn't respond well to multiple POT files either.
> 
> 3.  There may also be some issues in Tx about support for the ISO
>     language codes used in Publican.
> 
> I've asked Dimitris Glezos to give us an idea how much work is
> involved in fixing each of these factors.
> 
> Problem #1 is a high risk, and if we can't solve it quickly we have to
> fall back to our original methodologies.
> 
> Problem #2 is lower risk, because DL is being obsoleted anyway, and Tx
> will soon take over its duties.  Plus there is the possibility of a
> low-drag workaround, which I think some folks are working on now.

For example:

http://asgeirf.fedorapeople.org/docstats/release-notes.master/

> Problem #3 is medium-to-high risk -- again, translators need to be
> able to get at the content.
> 
> I expect Dimitris, Asgeir, and other L10n leaders will respond to this
> thread with some suggestions for (1) some estimate of how big these
> problems really are, (2) whether they can have the higher-risk ones
> repaired in the next, say, 1-2 weeks.

In case this isn't clear, we need someone to step-up and solve the
problems in Publican and Transifex.  I support Asgeir's reasoning for
working around DL's statistics.

We've been committed to using a good upstream product, now that Publican
fills that role, but there are still struggles in the upstream's
interaction with the wider, established communities in terms of methods,
tooling choices, and tool architecture.  All of these can be solved, and
Fedora Docs commitment is to be a good citizen in trying to get features
worked out and architectural decisions revisited and fixed at the
Publican level.

In the meantime, the higher priority parts of our mission can be
fulfilled with any DocBook XML toolchain, and we'll use whichever one is
working best within that 2 weeks.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Oct  2 16:21:02 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:21:02 -0700
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1222964462.3452.182.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> The Red Hat documentation team recently had a discussion about using
> prompts (such as "$" and "#") in command examples.
> 
> Joshua "top-posting ftw" Wulf came up with the following, and everyone
> agreed (I think...):

IIRC, one person vehemently detracted.  My biggest concern here is
getting a consistency across these documentation teams so we can work on
common upstream content together.  That is much more important than my
personal preference.

Maybe we want to start a discussion of hashing out the difference in our
style guides and making one common Fedora-based writing guide we can all
reference, adding project- or commercial-specific content when working
downstream.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Oct  2 16:27:07 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:27:07 -0700
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1222964827.3452.188.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 18:27 -0400, Jason Taylor wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> > 
> > And when you want to make some commentary on that, you close the box
> > and then speak.

> Commentary being along the lines of whether or not the command
> should/has to be run as root or normal user?

This is about comment blocks included in a command example, which is a
long-standing technical/developer habit.  For example:

'''Don't do this'''

        <screen>
        ls -hal  ## this is a great shortcut for seeing all the file
                 ## attributes
        
        ## Additional options for ls are: -Z, -q ..
        </screen>
        
'''Do this'''

        This is a great shortcut for seeing all the file attributes:
        
        <screen>
        ls -hal
        </screen>
        
        In addition to <option>-hal</option>, try the options ...


-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Oct  2 16:32:19 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:32:19 -0700
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <20081002023242.GJ23900@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3fb97f30810011826k551c82bdu37bf72f0580f0cda@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E3F2AF0-45E8-4579-BE1D-16E136E50665@gmail.com>
	<20081002023242.GJ23900@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
Message-ID: <1222965139.3452.195.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 22:32 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:

> Note that the su command removes the need for the user to look for
> niggling prompt details.  It also clarifies that the user should
> expect a prompt for the root password.

In part of that discussion with the Content Services team, we discussed
the need for sudo to be enabled by default.  One person was in favor of
having each document specify how to enable sudo, but I don't like that
rat hole.  That is another point we could discuss, however, if any
Anonymous Cowards are interested in fixing the common usage.  Meanwhile,
I'm advocating for a sane sudo-by-default in future Fedora versions so
we can stop having to use 'su -c'.  

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Oct  2 16:33:24 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:33:24 -0700
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <48E42C68.3010503@gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<48E42C68.3010503@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1222965204.3452.197.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 07:35 +0530, "Sankarshan (????????)" wrote:
> Murray McAllister wrote:
> 
> > The Red Hat documentation team recently had a discussion about using
> > prompts (such as "$" and "#") in command examples.
> 
> If this is based on the feedback that a lot of users copy-paste the
> commands into their shells and receive an error stating that the prompt
> shouldn't be in, then it makes sense to remove the prompt and add
> comments/narration.
> 
> However, this does bring out a separate point altogether - aren't users
> expected to *not* do copy-paste and type in the commands (for better
> learning etc etc) ? :)

We actually discussed the value of leaving the root # in use as a filter
against people who shouldn't be doing commands as root. :)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 17:09:27 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:09:27 -0400
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1222965139.3452.195.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3fb97f30810011826k551c82bdu37bf72f0580f0cda@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E3F2AF0-45E8-4579-BE1D-16E136E50665@gmail.com>
	<20081002023242.GJ23900@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
	<1222965139.3452.195.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <20081002170927.GL15653@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>

On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 09:32:19AM -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 22:32 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> 
> > Note that the su command removes the need for the user to look for
> > niggling prompt details.  It also clarifies that the user should
> > expect a prompt for the root password.
> 
> In part of that discussion with the Content Services team, we discussed
> the need for sudo to be enabled by default.  One person was in favor of
> having each document specify how to enable sudo, but I don't like that
> rat hole.  That is another point we could discuss, however, if any
> Anonymous Cowards are interested in fixing the common usage.  Meanwhile,
> I'm advocating for a sane sudo-by-default in future Fedora versions so
> we can stop having to use 'su -c'.  

The last time I tried Rawhide I remember there being some strange
change in the way that root access is (or isn't) provided.  This may
affect the use of 'su' -- sorry I didn't recall it before when I
posted.  I have a download of F10 Beta and I hope to have some time to
look at it later today or tonight.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kanarip at kanarip.com  Thu Oct  2 19:20:08 2008
From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:20:08 +0200
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1222965139.3452.195.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>	<e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>	<95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>	<e3fb97f30810011826k551c82bdu37bf72f0580f0cda@mail.gmail.com>	<8E3F2AF0-45E8-4579-BE1D-16E136E50665@gmail.com>	<20081002023242.GJ23900@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
	<1222965139.3452.195.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <48E51EE8.7040505@kanarip.com>

Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 22:32 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> 
>> Note that the su command removes the need for the user to look for
>> niggling prompt details.  It also clarifies that the user should
>> expect a prompt for the root password.
> 

In theory, no-one should ever have (to have) the root password. It 
should be changed regularly and the actual password can be (should be) 
stored in a (very) safe location.

In practice of course though, this *almost* never ever happens, and that 
IMHO is a bad thing.

Using "su -c" in documentation is not going to facilitate improving that 
situation, while the alternative is:

> In part of that discussion with the Content Services team, we discussed
> the need for sudo to be enabled by default.  One person was in favor of
> having each document specify how to enable sudo, but I don't like that
> rat hole.  That is another point we could discuss, however, if any
> Anonymous Cowards are interested in fixing the common usage.  Meanwhile,
> I'm advocating for a sane sudo-by-default in future Fedora versions so
> we can stop having to use 'su -c'.  
> 

There appears to be a growing wish for having the first user (entered 
during firstboot) be sudo-enabled, how can we actually make it so, 
process-technically speaking?

-Jeroen



From dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu  Thu Oct  2 20:44:38 2008
From: dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu (Dale Bewley)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:44:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: version comparison guidance (was Re: self introduction and rel
 notes advice)
In-Reply-To: <1473797231.163781222980005109.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <491470053.164131222980278175.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>

----- "Karsten 'quaid' Wade" <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
> In general, the marketing approach is to talk about GA to GA.  For
> documentation, I could see arguments either way.
> 
> Dale - great question!  Let's hash it out on list, set the guidance,
> and
> then you'll know.

It seems to me that release notes are strong marketing pieces, and are inherently documentation. For prudent people the release notes are often the the first thing they consult before upgrading, or taking the time to evaluate software through installation.

Describing the differences using the previous release notes gives one an apples to apples comparison. Also, assume F9 released with v1.0 of a pkg. Through updates it is now at v1.9. If F10 releases with v1.9, or even v2.0. Do you not describe all those enhancements between .0 and .9? I'd think those features would be worth bragging about in the rel notes.

That's basically how I came to the question. F9 has seen a few upgrades of libvirt with many feature enhancements from v0.4.2 up to 0.4.6 currently. I think describing the delta from 0.4.2 to the F10 version (0.4.6? 0.4.7?) is the only useful way to do it.

--
Dale Bewley - Unix Administrator - Shields Library - UC Davis
GPG: 0xB098A0F3 0D5A 9AEB 43F4 F84C 7EFD  1753 064D 2583 B098 A0F3



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 22:09:35 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 18:09:35 -0400
Subject: version comparison guidance (was Re: self introduction and rel
	notes advice)
In-Reply-To: <491470053.164131222980278175.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
References: <1473797231.163781222980005109.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
	<491470053.164131222980278175.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <20081002220935.GF30013@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>

On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 01:44:38PM -0700, Dale Bewley wrote:
> ----- "Karsten 'quaid' Wade" <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
> > In general, the marketing approach is to talk about GA to GA.  For
> > documentation, I could see arguments either way.
> > 
> > Dale - great question!  Let's hash it out on list, set the guidance,
> > and
> > then you'll know.
> 
> It seems to me that release notes are strong marketing pieces, and
> are inherently documentation. For prudent people the release notes
> are often the the first thing they consult before upgrading, or
> taking the time to evaluate software through installation.
> 
> Describing the differences using the previous release notes gives
> one an apples to apples comparison. Also, assume F9 released with
> v1.0 of a pkg. Through updates it is now at v1.9. If F10 releases
> with v1.9, or even v2.0. Do you not describe all those enhancements
> between .0 and .9? I'd think those features would be worth bragging
> about in the rel notes.
> 
> That's basically how I came to the question. F9 has seen a few
> upgrades of libvirt with many feature enhancements from v0.4.2 up to
> 0.4.6 currently. I think describing the delta from 0.4.2 to the F10
> version (0.4.6? 0.4.7?) is the only useful way to do it.

I agree with this and can't add anything more persuasive.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 22:11:21 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 18:11:21 -0400
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <48E51EE8.7040505@kanarip.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3fb97f30810011826k551c82bdu37bf72f0580f0cda@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E3F2AF0-45E8-4579-BE1D-16E136E50665@gmail.com>
	<20081002023242.GJ23900@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
	<1222965139.3452.195.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<48E51EE8.7040505@kanarip.com>
Message-ID: <20081002221121.GG30013@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>

On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 09:20:08PM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
>> On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 22:32 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>>> Note that the su command removes the need for the user to look for
>>> niggling prompt details.  It also clarifies that the user should
>>> expect a prompt for the root password.
>
> In theory, no-one should ever have (to have) the root password. It  
> should be changed regularly and the actual password can be (should be)  
> stored in a (very) safe location.
>
> In practice of course though, this *almost* never ever happens, and that  
> IMHO is a bad thing.
>
> Using "su -c" in documentation is not going to facilitate improving that  
> situation, while the alternative is:
>
>> In part of that discussion with the Content Services team, we discussed
>> the need for sudo to be enabled by default.  One person was in favor of
>> having each document specify how to enable sudo, but I don't like that
>> rat hole.  That is another point we could discuss, however, if any
>> Anonymous Cowards are interested in fixing the common usage.  Meanwhile,
>> I'm advocating for a sane sudo-by-default in future Fedora versions so
>> we can stop having to use 'su -c'.  
>>
>
> There appears to be a growing wish for having the first user (entered  
> during firstboot) be sudo-enabled, how can we actually make it so,  
> process-technically speaking?

Way off topic for this list I think.  This is for fedora-devel-list.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 22:20:33 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:20:33 +1000
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1222965139.3452.195.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3fb97f30810011826k551c82bdu37bf72f0580f0cda@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E3F2AF0-45E8-4579-BE1D-16E136E50665@gmail.com>
	<20081002023242.GJ23900@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
	<1222965139.3452.195.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810021520s6c1f1f38wd18a6cb8a6f01864@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 22:32 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>
>> Note that the su command removes the need for the user to look for
>> niggling prompt details.  It also clarifies that the user should
>> expect a prompt for the root password.
>
> In part of that discussion with the Content Services team, we discussed
> the need for sudo to be enabled by default.  One person was in favor of
> having each document specify how to enable sudo, but I don't like that
> rat hole.  That is another point we could discuss, however, if any
> Anonymous Cowards are interested in fixing the common usage.  Meanwhile,
> I'm advocating for a sane sudo-by-default in future Fedora versions so
> we can stop having to use 'su -c'.
>
> - Karsten

I leave this out. I have text preceding the command saying "Run the
following command as the Linux root user:", because I'm too lazy to
decide between sudo or su ;)



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 22:30:06 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:30:06 +1000
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1222964462.3452.182.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222964462.3452.182.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810021530u5b9b8c8cr5476f9776565228@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 2:21 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> The Red Hat documentation team recently had a discussion about using
>> prompts (such as "$" and "#") in command examples.
>>
>> Joshua "top-posting ftw" Wulf came up with the following, and everyone
>> agreed (I think...):
>
> IIRC, one person vehemently detracted.  My biggest concern here is
> getting a consistency across these documentation teams so we can work on
> common upstream content together.  That is much more important than my
> personal preference.
>
> Maybe we want to start a discussion of hashing out the difference in our
> style guides and making one common Fedora-based writing guide we can all
> reference, adding project- or commercial-specific content when working
> downstream.

Red Hat Content Services agreed on a usage. The current thing I am
working on is in Fedora, so if you could all let me know (preferably
before November) what you decide, I'll change it accordingly.

Cheers.



From jkeating at redhat.com  Thu Oct  2 23:57:54 2008
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 16:57:54 -0700
Subject: New language codes?
In-Reply-To: <20080930015013.GB21121@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
References: <20080930015013.GB21121@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
Message-ID: <1222991874.6265.75.camel@luminos.localdomain>

On Mon, 2008-09-29 at 21:50 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> 
> It would probably be good if any tools used to spin or release the
> distribution get updated to support both of these options.  I would
> suggest shifting them to use the ISO standard, en-US, first and the
> try falling back to en_US.  That way, if we fail utterly and have to
> drop back to the old way of doing business, the results will still
> land properly.


We no longer put the release notes on the isos / trees.  It takes up
space and is better served up by our webservers, or by firefox on a
user's machine.  I don't think the name change will have any impact upon
compose tools.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From jfearn at redhat.com  Fri Oct  3 00:15:31 2008
From: jfearn at redhat.com (Jeff Fearn)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:15:31 +1000
Subject: L10n and Docs fallback
In-Reply-To: <1222964300.3452.178.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20081001193839.GC10135@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
	<1222964300.3452.178.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <48E56423.2030306@redhat.com>

Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 15:38 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>> We have several problems currently brewing with using hosted git repos
>> of Publican-based documents with L10n's Transifex (Tx).
>>
>> 1.  Publican uses multiple POT files instead of the single POT model.
>>     Transifex apparently does not currently handle multiple POT files
>>     well.
>>
>> 2.  The current (obsolete but soon to be replaced) Damned Lies (DL)
>>     used in L10n doesn't respond well to multiple POT files either.
>>
>> 3.  There may also be some issues in Tx about support for the ISO
>>     language codes used in Publican.
>>
>> I've asked Dimitris Glezos to give us an idea how much work is
>> involved in fixing each of these factors.
>>
>> Problem #1 is a high risk, and if we can't solve it quickly we have to
>> fall back to our original methodologies.
>>
>> Problem #2 is lower risk, because DL is being obsoleted anyway, and Tx
>> will soon take over its duties.  Plus there is the possibility of a
>> low-drag workaround, which I think some folks are working on now.
> 
> For example:
> 
> http://asgeirf.fedorapeople.org/docstats/release-notes.master/
> 
>> Problem #3 is medium-to-high risk -- again, translators need to be
>> able to get at the content.
>>
>> I expect Dimitris, Asgeir, and other L10n leaders will respond to this
>> thread with some suggestions for (1) some estimate of how big these
>> problems really are, (2) whether they can have the higher-risk ones
>> repaired in the next, say, 1-2 weeks.
> 
> In case this isn't clear, we need someone to step-up and solve the
> problems in Publican and Transifex.  I support Asgeir's reasoning for
> working around DL's statistics.
> 
> We've been committed to using a good upstream product, now that Publican
> fills that role, but there are still struggles in the upstream's
> interaction with the wider, established communities in terms of methods,
> tooling choices, and tool architecture.

I do not know why you are flaming the publican team over this. The only 
bug raised in relation to the three problems listed above, which BTW I 
had to open myself, was the inability to generate HTML reports with two 
character language definitions.

To my knowledge all other functionality works correctly with two 
character language definitions.

You can generate non-html statistics for two character language 
definitions, in the current version, by running 'make report-total-all'.

You can get per-language non html reports by running 'make 
report-total-<lang>' e.g. 'make report-total-es'

The bug in HTML reporting has already been fixed and will appear in the 
next version of publican.

I reworked the layout since I didn't like it, although I received no 
feedback from anyone on the previous layout :/

You can see the new output at http://jfearn.fedorapeople.org/Test_Report/

>  All of these can be solved, and
> Fedora Docs commitment is to be a good citizen in trying to get features
> worked out and architectural decisions revisited and fixed at the
> Publican level.

The architectural flaw here is in transifex. Expecting translators to 
work on 300000 word po files is not realistic.

The Test Report above is for the Fedora 10 Deployment Guide, it is 
293756 words, approximately 1175 hours of translation time, per 
language, having that in one po file is not a workable solution.

> In the meantime, the higher priority parts of our mission can be
> fulfilled with any DocBook XML toolchain, and we'll use whichever one is
> working best within that 2 weeks.

Please open a bug for any issue you have with publican. Critical bugs 
will get fixed ASAP.

Cheers, Jeff.



From kwade at redhat.com  Fri Oct  3 00:42:56 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 17:42:56 -0700
Subject: Wiki-to-XML for F10
Message-ID: <1222994576.3452.212.camel@calliope.phig.org>

As of last night's scheduling exercise, we have 09 October as the point
we need to make some kind of XML come out of the wiki.

Before we converted to MediaWiki, Mike McGrath had heavily customized a
script for Docs to use in converting, and the output was as good as we
had from Moin.  That is our fallback position.

Can someone point me at the proper combinations of what to see if I can
use the python-wmlib and etc.?  Between Paul, Ian, and Mike lie those
answers, I think.

cheers - Karsten, who wants something to schedule!
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From narendra.sisodiya at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 03:07:19 2008
From: narendra.sisodiya at gmail.com (narendra sisodiya)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:37:19 +0530
Subject: Wiki-to-XML for F10
In-Reply-To: <1222994576.3452.212.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1222994576.3452.212.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <e3fb97f30810022007r7a608df5vcd941f4e974fe6d5@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 6:12 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com>wrote:

> As of last night's scheduling exercise, we have 09 October as the point
> we need to make some kind of XML come out of the wiki.
>
> Before we converted to MediaWiki, Mike McGrath had heavily customized a
> script for Docs to use in converting, and the output was as good as we
> had from Moin.  That is our fallback position.
>
> Can someone point me at the proper combinations of what to see if I can
> use the python-wmlib and etc.?  Between Paul, Ian, and Mike lie those
> answers, I think.
>
> cheers - Karsten, who wants something to schedule!
> --
> Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
> Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
> Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
> gpg key : AD0E0C41
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>

I am new , i am not getting, what exactly you want, I want to help in this
regard.
As per my knowledge, docbook is xml format, we can make converter to convert
it to wiki format.

Regards
-- 
????[ Narendra Sisodiya ]???????????????
?     http://narendra.techfandu.org
?     http://www.lug-iitd.org
?????????????[ +91-93790-75930 ]???????
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From kwade at redhat.com  Fri Oct  3 13:33:50 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 06:33:50 -0700
Subject: common upstream ground (was Re: prompts in command examples)
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0810021530u5b9b8c8cr5476f9776565228@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222964462.3452.182.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<95f1114b0810021530u5b9b8c8cr5476f9776565228@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223040830.3452.244.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 08:30 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 2:21 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Maybe we want to start a discussion of hashing out the difference in our
> > style guides and making one common Fedora-based writing guide we can all
> > reference, adding project- or commercial-specific content when working
> > downstream.
> 
> Red Hat Content Services agreed on a usage. The current thing I am
> working on is in Fedora, so if you could all let me know (preferably
> before November) what you decide, I'll change it accordingly.

Other groups in Red Hat have greatly benefited from working on external
guides and processes, then deriving internally from them.  RPM packaging
guidelines springs immediately to mind, and mutually beneficial projects
such as EPEL.  No surprise, this is a simple extension of the open
source methodology.  Given enough time, the external community is going
to duplicate and improve upon everything an internal group does
privately.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From elizabeth at eawestwriting.com  Fri Oct  3 14:09:17 2008
From: elizabeth at eawestwriting.com (Elizabeth Ann West)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:09:17 -0400
Subject: A New Look at How We Write Content for the Desktop User Guide
Message-ID: <1223042957.3072.20.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hello All,

I am a fairly new contributor to Fedora-Docs, and a <1 year Linux user.
My background is predominantly writing, so I approach the documentation
more from a literary stand point than a heavily entrenched computer
user. If anything, I'm a good example of the type of person you are
looking to convert from proprietary software to open source. 

I took a hard look at the Desktop Users Guide F9, specifically the page
giving instructions to install financial software. First, there was a
large issue with the content-- the instructions simply would not work
for a new user with Fedora 9. Second, the instructions were not clear
for a brand new user to Linux.  

After finishing the content change, and major style changes to the
Financial Software page, I deconstructed the changes and differences so
others may learn from them, and contribute their own ideas and
experiences. Yes, we are writing documentation for free, but we have an
opportunity here as open source enthusiasts to use our piece of the
project at large to further the cause and acceptance of Fedora as an
operating system. These suggestions below are only for the Desktop Users
Guide, the specialized guide for new users of Fedora, presumably coming
from Windows, without Linux experience.

For discussion purposes, this is the old page:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide/Financial 

This is the new and improved page:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide-Financial_Software 

Here are the major improvements I want to point out as potential "best
practices" for future work on the Desktop User Guide: 

      * The page stands completely alone for a new user. 
Links and everything are great, but switching to a new operating system
is highly nerve-wracking. I have done this 3 times in the last 5 months,
including  my first switch to Linux from Windows. Experienced Linux
users take so much for granted, when just something as simple as
installing software from a command line is foreign (a distant memory for
Windows users who remember DOS). Ease new users' frustrations by
providing all needed instructions in one document page or chapter that
apply to functionality, or getting something done. Certainly link to
topics that may be of interest to me for other actions, but don't leave
out information I need to accomplish what I want/need to do right now.
It's like giving landmarks when you give someone directions for the
first time, instead of letting them rely just on Mapquest, or sending
them an entire road map for the state.

      * Stand alone chapters fit in more with how all users utilize help
        manuals.
We're all guilty of this one. No one voluntarily reads a help manual
from cover to cover unless he or she absolutely must. New and old users
alike use an index for printed manuals to jump right to the information
needed, and electronically search is a godsend. Working to write and
offer stand alone chapters helps the users help themselves in the manner
they naturally will try first. The fewer places a user must go for
information, the more likely he or she can use the data effectively.

      * White space is visually pleasing in print and electronically.
The old version crams together two sets of instructions to perform the
same task, without clearly delineating when the desired result is
accomplished in either situation. The new version sets off the simple
sentence "[Application] is now installed on your computer." with a
double line space on each side. This naturally draws the eye to the
completion of the first set of instructions, without a garish ALL CAPS
or other formatting scream. Breaking up complex instruction sets with
this practice re-focuses the reader's attention. This is vital, as it is
likely the user is hopping between windows, reading directions, and then
carrying them out. Under the old instruction set, a new user from
Windows very possibly could install with the command line, miss the
concept that terminal and Pirut are two different methods of the same
thing (after all both are new to the user), and keep following the
directions ticking that box to remove the application. Over and over
again until they decide it's just broken. The new page lets the reader
know in the introduction two installation methods are available, and
then uses white space to reinforce the distinction.

      * Give Graphical User Interface(GUI) example before command line,
        if possible.
The Desktop User Guide has an audience of someone with no previous Linux
experience. So, start with what is familiar, and move to the unfamiliar.
The prevalence of Windows has made mainstream computer users clickers,
clickers, clickers. Even shortcut commands are forsaken in the culture
of right-clicking. Windows has trained people to click 'Next', a
seemingly infinite numbers of times, and follow baby steps. It will
naturally occur to the new users how powerful and efficient the command
line is to Linux. Eventually, they will get to where they want to do
something beyond the scope of the Desktop User Guide and it will only
have instructions for the command line in a forum post or other
documentation. Starting out, it's enough for them to know it exists and
it will accomplish the same tasks as that clicking. Now, if the topic is
on the command line commands, there is little reason to start with GUI.

      * Qualify the information the user is reading.
One of the largest differences between Windows and Linux a new user
immediately encounters is just the sheer increase in information his or
her computer is sharing. On top of the increase, the computer also
demands new decisions the user never had to make before. What do you
mean I have the option of NOT installing these other packages, the ones
you are telling me will make this package I do want work? People are
naturally intimidated by notations they do not understand, like the
numbers with decimal points under a package's name in Add/Remove
Software. With instructions, leaving out actions or messages the
computer will give confuses a new user. It starts questions that stop
the process of learning: Is this normal? Where is this in the
instructions? Why can't I find this step? Did I mess up? Going back to
the landmarks concept when you give someone road directions, I added the
messages Add/Remove Software gives while it is performing the user's
requests. 

This is from my personal first experiences with Add/Remove Software, it
was s......l......o......w (I fixed it when I disabled the auto-updater,
not advice I want to share as a good habit to get into). Everything
else, Internet, chat, was moving very briskly. As soon as I quit
everything and just started Add/Remove Software it was still so
painfully slow even I gave up a few times trying to install GnuCash. If
I was reading instructions, the "Downloading repository information"
landmark would at least reassure me the application was still working,
not stuck or refreshing itself.

Some other quick notes: 
      * Changed icon info to "associated" as neither installation method
        auto-creates desktop launcher. Didn't get into that because it
        doesn't fit the "do I need it for this function" litmus test. 
      * Clarified confusion the first page had of Live-CD versus DVD to
        plainly state DVD has both, does not install automagically, if
        you do not have Internet access use the DVD, otherwise..... list
        of instructions to install. 
      * Qualified the information that suddenly appears in the bottom
        boxes when they tick the box as just extra information so they
        don't think it affects the install. 
      * Included [y/N] step for command line so the new user isn't
        hesitant about answering yes. Anytime a Windows user encounters
        typing 'y' or 'n' it's not usually a good thing. Also, again
        qualified all that test the Terminal spits out is just
        information about the application so they don't try to keep up. 
      * Opted to teach Search box rather than clicking Office category
        because Office category takes too long to populate, and new
        users will be turned off trying to find the exact name of the
        package to install from that long list when none of the icons
        are different.

Limitations/Criticisms 
      * Have not placed in links to those "extra words and concepts"
        like KDE Desktop Environment should link to the page about that.
        I don't quite understand yet which are new versus old, versus
        frozen in the document structure (many all look the same to me).
        I need help to add that in. 
      * Have not taken my editor's scalpel to the wording. I know there
        are a number of passive sentences, but I am too close to the
        text right now to see the problems or areas for improvement. In
        a few days, I can better judge nuances in wording. 
      * Other writers may not care for this style as it is more
        involved, and fights against the elitist concept of self
        discovery that is so common in the open source community. 
      * Other writers and Fedora doc leaders may not care for the
        writing style because of the departure from the traditional, or
        view it as repeating the same information over and over again. 
      * Many others I'm sure.....

I invite others to weigh in on this issue. I am very open to hear
criticism and realize critiquing my content is not the same as
critiquing me. :) I want to offer my strong English background to help
our group as a whole start to question when we work on documents: Who am
I writing this for? What knowledge will they already know? 

Always Smiling,
Elizabeth Ann West



From poelstra at redhat.com  Fri Oct  3 14:32:43 2008
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 07:32:43 -0700
Subject: F10 Schedule Revised
Message-ID: <48E62D0B.4090603@redhat.com>

I have published updated schedules based on the great gobby editing 
sessions we had this week with the Documentation and Translation teams. 
  Note each schedule only shows the tasks for that specific team... we 
can adjust this if that is confusing:

http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-docs-tasks.html
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-trans-tasks.html

For a view of all combined tasks for all teams:
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-all-tasks.html

As I mentioned during the Documentation session, I hope this process 
isn't too frustrating.  I think it will take a few iterations to make 
sure we are all using and understanding the same terminology.  There is 
probably still some work to be done around the 0-day tasks as someone 
pointed out on the translation list.

So next I'm proposing that both Documentation and Translation meet on 
gobby and if possible fedora talk (for audio conversation) next week to 
work out the remaining points of difference and confusion :)

Thanks again for your patience and I hope this process is helpful.

John










From mmcgrath at redhat.com  Fri Oct  3 14:56:47 2008
From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 09:56:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Outage Notification - 2008-10-05 07:00 UTC
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.10.0810030956300.31374@laptop.mmcgrath.net>

There will be an outage starting at 2008-10-05 07:00 UTC, which will last
approximately 2 hours.

To convert UTC to your local time, take a look at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UTCHowto
or run:

date -d '2008-10-05 07:00 UTC'

Affected Services:

Buildsystem
CVS / Source Control
Database
DNS
Fedora Hosted
Fedora People
Fedora Talk
Mail
Mirror System
Torrent
Websites

Unaffected Services:

All

Ticket Link:

https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/875

Reason for Outage:

Doing our monthly updates to our systems, there's a kernel update this
time around and we'll be rebooting everything.  In theory most systems
won't go down at all.  But many will be down for a few minutes at a time
during our 2 hour outage window.

Contact Information:

Please join #fedora-admin in irc.freenode.net or respond to this email to
track the status of this outage.




From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 15:37:17 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:37:17 -0400
Subject: F10 Schedule Revised
In-Reply-To: <48E62D0B.4090603@redhat.com>
References: <48E62D0B.4090603@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20081003153717.GF2826@salma.internal.frields.org>

On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 07:32:43AM -0700, John Poelstra wrote:
> I have published updated schedules based on the great gobby editing  
> sessions we had this week with the Documentation and Translation teams.  
> Note each schedule only shows the tasks for that specific team... we can 
> adjust this if that is confusing:
>
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-docs-tasks.html
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-trans-tasks.html
>
> For a view of all combined tasks for all teams:
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-all-tasks.html
>
> As I mentioned during the Documentation session, I hope this process  
> isn't too frustrating.  I think it will take a few iterations to make  
> sure we are all using and understanding the same terminology.  There is  
> probably still some work to be done around the 0-day tasks as someone  
> pointed out on the translation list.
>
> So next I'm proposing that both Documentation and Translation meet on  
> gobby and if possible fedora talk (for audio conversation) next week to  
> work out the remaining points of difference and confusion :)
>
> Thanks again for your patience and I hope this process is helpful.

It has ABSOLUTELY been helpful.  I will do my best to be at any
meeting next week for more scheduling bashing.  I think that we should
probably stick to using the gobby chat window for communication --
even with only 3 people I think Fedora Talk held us back at times.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 15:43:21 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:43:21 -0400
Subject: Wiki-to-XML for F10
In-Reply-To: <e3fb97f30810022007r7a608df5vcd941f4e974fe6d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1222994576.3452.212.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<e3fb97f30810022007r7a608df5vcd941f4e974fe6d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081003154321.GG2826@salma.internal.frields.org>

On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 08:37:19AM +0530, narendra sisodiya wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 6:12 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com>wrote:
> > As of last night's scheduling exercise, we have 09 October as the point
> > we need to make some kind of XML come out of the wiki.
> >
> > Before we converted to MediaWiki, Mike McGrath had heavily customized a
> > script for Docs to use in converting, and the output was as good as we
> > had from Moin.  That is our fallback position.
> >
> > Can someone point me at the proper combinations of what to see if I can
> > use the python-wmlib and etc.?  Between Paul, Ian, and Mike lie those
> > answers, I think.
> 
> I am new , i am not getting, what exactly you want, I want to help in this
> regard.
> As per my knowledge, docbook is xml format, we can make converter to convert
> it to wiki format.

If I'm not mistaken, Karsten's talking about the exact opposite --
converting wiki pages into DocBook XML.  Ian Weller really helped this
situation by getting python-mwlib into the Fedora repos.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From herlo1 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 16:24:22 2008
From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:24:22 -0600
Subject: [Ambassadors] Special visitors at the upcoming NA Ambassadors
	meetings
In-Reply-To: <be9936b90810030730p1d107a67m93bb40eed6d1a6e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d6e6dfeb0810030713n79cf9f4dpf3bc8c1e006cdeea@mail.gmail.com>
	<be9936b90810030730p1d107a67m93bb40eed6d1a6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d9e12e8a0810030924p408d6dd9p7de57d44b1a9de7d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Francesco Ugolini
<fugolini at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> 2008/10/3 David Nalley <david at gnsa.us>:
>> The NA Ambassadors meetings will have visitors over the next few
>> weeks. These visitors will be representatives from other projects
>> within Fedora. The will attempt to educate us on the specific 'Join'
>> process for their project as well as tasks they have that are suited
>> for new users. Since one of the purposes of the Ambassador project is
>> to recruit and foster new contributors we figured that we at least
>> need to be familiar with the quirks for those projects.
>>
>> The first will be M?ir?n Duffy (mizmo) from the Art team at the
>> October 7 meeting at 2100 EDT (October 8, 0100 UTC) in #fedora-meeting
>>
>> We already have Docs and QA/Bug Triaging lined up as well, and we will
>> get others lined up in the coming weeks.

I'm confirming docs for October 21.  Karsten Wade (and possibly
others) will be along to help us see the vision for the Docs project.
As far as urls go and our homework for Monday Oct 20:

Please Read
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Join
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject

To get more information for this group.



From narendra.sisodiya at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 17:13:16 2008
From: narendra.sisodiya at gmail.com (narendra sisodiya)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 22:43:16 +0530
Subject: Wiki-to-XML for F10
In-Reply-To: <20081003154321.GG2826@salma.internal.frields.org>
References: <1222994576.3452.212.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<e3fb97f30810022007r7a608df5vcd941f4e974fe6d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081003154321.GG2826@salma.internal.frields.org>
Message-ID: <e3fb97f30810031013t54ba6569p32de83650e67e9d2@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 08:37:19AM +0530, narendra sisodiya wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 6:12 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com
> >wrote:
> > > As of last night's scheduling exercise, we have 09 October as the point
> > > we need to make some kind of XML come out of the wiki.
> > >
> > > Before we converted to MediaWiki, Mike McGrath had heavily customized a
> > > script for Docs to use in converting, and the output was as good as we
> > > had from Moin.  That is our fallback position.
> > >
> > > Can someone point me at the proper combinations of what to see if I can
> > > use the python-wmlib and etc.?  Between Paul, Ian, and Mike lie those
> > > answers, I think.
> >
> > I am new , i am not getting, what exactly you want, I want to help in
> this
> > regard.
> > As per my knowledge, docbook is xml format, we can make converter to
> convert
> > it to wiki format.
>
> If I'm not mistaken, Karsten's talking about the exact opposite --
> converting wiki pages into DocBook XML.  Ian Weller really helped this
> situation by getting python-mwlib into the Fedora repos.
>
Sorry for my week understanding., But this project seems to be useful.
http://www.marcworrell.com/article-1377-en.html (ya, it convert to HTML but
original code can be modifies for XML)


>
> --
> Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
>  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
>  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
>  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
????[ Narendra Sisodiya ]???????????????
?     http://narendra.techfandu.org
?     http://www.lug-iitd.org
?????????????[ +91-93790-75930 ]???????
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From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 17:36:12 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:36:12 -0400
Subject: Wiki-to-XML for F10
In-Reply-To: <e3fb97f30810031013t54ba6569p32de83650e67e9d2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1222994576.3452.212.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<e3fb97f30810022007r7a608df5vcd941f4e974fe6d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081003154321.GG2826@salma.internal.frields.org>
	<e3fb97f30810031013t54ba6569p32de83650e67e9d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081003173612.GG3443@salma.internal.frields.org>

On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 10:43:16PM +0530, narendra sisodiya wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 08:37:19AM +0530, narendra sisodiya wrote:
> > If I'm not mistaken, Karsten's talking about the exact opposite --
> > converting wiki pages into DocBook XML.  Ian Weller really helped this
> > situation by getting python-mwlib into the Fedora repos.
> >
> Sorry for my week understanding., But this project seems to be useful.
> http://www.marcworrell.com/article-1377-en.html (ya, it convert to HTML but
> original code can be modifies for XML)

No problem.  The python-mwlib provides a much stronger basis for
conversion to a LOT of formats, because the Wikimedia Foundation
actually works on that code themselves.  Since we use the MediaWiki
for our project wiki, makes sense to stick closely with something well
supported for future compatibility.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Sat Oct  4 00:31:23 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:31:23 -0700
Subject: Wiki-to-XML for F10
In-Reply-To: <e3fb97f30810022007r7a608df5vcd941f4e974fe6d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1222994576.3452.212.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<e3fb97f30810022007r7a608df5vcd941f4e974fe6d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223080283.3452.319.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 08:37 +0530, narendra sisodiya wrote:

> I am new , i am not getting, what exactly you want, I want to help in
> this regard.

Sorry, my email was extremely lacking in background detail.  It was
really directed at the people who have worked on various parts of the
wiki-to-XML conversion tools, but I'm happy to give more details.

> As per my knowledge, docbook is xml format, we can make converter to
> convert it to wiki format. 

The conversion need is the opposite direction, going from content in the
wiki to DocBook XML.

A wiki is good for collaboration amongst a large group, and makes a fair
location for writing short guides.  DocBook XML is better for
maintaining longer, more complex documents that need translation and
output in multiple formats (HTML, PDF, etc.)

- Karsten

-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kam at kamsalisbury.com  Sat Oct  4 18:19:00 2008
From: kam at kamsalisbury.com (Kam)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:19:00 -0400
Subject: A New Look at How We Write Content for the Desktop User Guide
Message-ID: <48e7b3e0.101d640a.3170.ffffd0ef@mx.google.com>

Hi Elizabeth!  Thanks for your comments. Hopefully I will be able to meet your expectations in documentation I am a part of in the future. (I am a new documentation contributor)

You are welcome to contact me with feedback or commentary on any documentation at this point forward.

--
Kam
http://kamsalisbury.com
GPG key: FAF1751E

-----Original Message-----

From:  Elizabeth Ann West <elizabeth at eawestwriting.com>
Subj:  A New Look at How We Write Content for the Desktop User Guide
Date:  Fri Oct 3, 2008 10:18 am
Size:  9K
To:  fedora-docs-list at redhat.com

Hello All,

I am a fairly new contributor to Fedora-Docs, and a <1 year Linux user.
My background is predominantly writing, so I approach the documentation
more from a literary stand point than a heavily entrenched computer
user. If anything, I'm a good example of the type of person you are
looking to convert from proprietary software to open source. 

I took a hard look at the Desktop Users Guide F9, specifically the page
giving instructions to install financial software. First, there was a
large issue with the content-- the instructions simply would not work
for a new user with Fedora 9. Second, the instructions were not clear
for a brand new user to Linux.  

After finishing the content change, and major style changes to the
Financial Software page, I deconstructed the changes and differences so
others may learn from them, and contribute their own ideas and
experiences. Yes, we are writing documentation for free, but we have an
opportunity here as open source enthusiasts to use our piece of the
project at large to further the cause and acceptance of Fedora as an
operating system. These suggestions below are only for the Desktop Users
Guide, the specialized guide for new users of Fedora, presumably coming
from Windows, without Linux experience.

For discussion purposes, this is the old page:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide/Financial 

This is the new and improved page:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide-Financial_Software 

Here are the major improvements I want to point out as potential "best
practices" for future work on the Desktop User Guide: 

      * The page stands completely alone for a new user. 
Links and everything are great, but switching to a new operating system
is highly nerve-wracking. I have done this 3 times in the last 5 months,
including  my first switch to Linux from Windows. Experienced Linux
users take so much for granted, when just something as simple as
installing software from a command line is foreign (a distant memory for
Windows users who remember DOS). Ease new users' frustrations by
providing all needed instructions in one document page or chapter that
apply to functionality, or getting something done. Certainly link to
topics that may be of interest to me for other actions, but don't leave
out information I need to accomplish what I want/need to do right now.
It's like giving landmarks when you give someone directions for the
first time, instead of letting them rely just on Mapquest, or sending
them an entire road map for the state.

      * Stand alone chapters fit in more with how all users utilize help
        manuals.
We're all guilty of this one. No one voluntarily reads a help manual
from cover to cover unless he or she absolutely must. New and old users
alike use an index for printed manuals to jump right to the information
needed, and electronically search is a godsend. Working to write and
offer stand alone chapters helps the users help themselves in the manner
they naturally will try first. The fewer places a user must go for
information, the more likely he or she can use the data effectively.

      * White space is visually pleasing in print and electronically.
The old version crams together two sets of instructions to perform the
same task, without clearly delineating when the desired result is
accomplished in either situation. The new version sets off the simple
sentence "[Application] is now installed on your computer." with a
double line space on each side. This naturally draws the eye to the
completion of the first set of instructions, without a garish ALL CAPS
or other formatting scream. Breaking up complex instruction sets with
this practice re-focuses the reader's attention. This is vital, as it is
likely the user is hopping between windows, reading directions, and then
carrying them out. Under the old instruction set, a new user from
Windows very possibly could install with the command line, miss the
concept that terminal and Pirut are two different methods of the same
thing (after all both are new to the user), and keep following the
directions ticking that box to remove the application. Over and over
again until they decide it's just broken. The new page lets the reader
know in the introduction two installation methods are available, and
then uses white space to reinforce the distinction.

      * Give Graphical User Interface(GUI) example before command line,
        if possible.
The Desktop User Guide has an audience of someone with no previous Linux
experience. So, start with what is familiar, and move to the unfamiliar.
The prevalence of Windows has made mainstream computer users clickers,
clickers, clickers. Even shortcut commands are forsaken in the culture
of right-clicking. Windows has trained people to click 'Next', a
seemingly infinite numbers of times, and follow baby steps. It will
naturally occur to the new users how powerful and efficient the command
line is to Linux. Eventually, they will get to where they want to do
something beyond the scope of the Desktop User Guide and it will only
have instructions for the command line in a forum post or other
documentation. Starting out, it's enough for them to know it exists and
it will accomplish the same tasks as that clicking. Now, if the topic is
on the command line commands, there is little reason to start with GUI.

      * Qualify the information the user is reading.
One of the largest differences between Windows and Linux a new user
immediately encounters is just the sheer increase in information his or
her computer is sharing. On top of the increase, the computer also
demands new decisions the user never had to make before. What do you
mean I have the option of NOT installing these other packages, the ones
you are telling me will make this package I do want work? People are
naturally intimidated by notations they do not understand, like the
numbers with decimal points under a package's name in Add/Remove
Software. With instructions, leaving out actions or messages the
computer will give confuses a new user. It starts questions that stop
the process of learning: Is this normal? Where is this in the
instructions? Why can't I find this step? Did I mess up? Going back to
the landmarks concept when you give someone road directions, I added the
messages Add/Remove Software gives while it is performing the user's
requests. 

This is from my personal first experiences with Add/Remove Software, it
was s......l......o......w (I fixed it when I disabled the auto-updater,
not advice I want to share as a good habit to get into). Everything
else, Internet, chat, was moving very briskly. As soon as I quit
everything and just started Add/Remove Software it was still so
painfully slow even I gave up a few times trying to install GnuCash. If
I was reading instructions, the "Downloading repository information"
landmark would at least reassure me the application was still working,
not stuck or refreshing itself.

Some other quick notes: 
      * Changed icon info to "associated" as neither installation method
        auto-creates desktop launcher. Didn't get into that because it
        doesn't fit the "do I need it for this function" litmus test. 
      * Clarified confusion the first page had of Live-CD versus DVD to
        plainly state DVD has both, does not install automagically, if
        you do not have Internet access use the DVD, otherwise..... list
        of instructions to install. 
      * Qualified the information that suddenly appears in the bottom
        boxes when they tick the box as just extra information so they
        don't think it affects the install. 
      * Included [y/N] step for command line so the new user isn't
        hesitant about answering yes. Anytime a Windows user encounters
        typing 'y' or 'n' it's not usually a good thing. Also, again
        qualified all that test the Terminal spits out is just
        information about the application so they don't try to keep up. 
      * Opted to teach Search box rather than clicking Office category
        because Office category takes too long to populate, and new
        users will be turned off trying to find the exact name of the
        package to install from that long list when none of the icons
        are different.

Limitations/Criticisms 
      * Have not placed in links to those "extra words and concepts"
        like KDE Desktop Environment should link to the page about that.
        I don't quite understand yet which are new versus old, versus
        frozen in the document structure (many all look the same to me).
        I need help to add that in. 
      * Have not taken my editor's scalpel to the wording. I know there
        are a number of passive sentences, but I am too close to the
        text right now to see the problems or areas for improvement. In
        a few days, I can better judge nuances in wording. 
      * Other writers may not care for this style as it is more
        involved, and fights against the elitist concept of self
        discovery that is so common in the open source community. 
      * Other writers and Fedora doc leaders may not care for the
        writing style because of the departure from the traditional, or
        view it as repeating the same information over and over again. 
      * Many others I'm sure.....

I invite others to weigh in on this issue. I am very open to hear
criticism and realize critiquing my content is not the same as
critiquing me. :) I want to offer my strong English background to help
our group as a whole start to question when we work on documents: Who am
I writing this for? What knowledge will they already know? 

Always Smiling,
Elizabeth Ann West

-- 
fedora-docs-list mailing list
fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
To unsubscribe: 
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list





From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  4 22:28:27 2008
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason Taylor)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 18:28:27 -0400
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0810021520s6c1f1f38wd18a6cb8a6f01864@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3fb97f30810011826k551c82bdu37bf72f0580f0cda@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E3F2AF0-45E8-4579-BE1D-16E136E50665@gmail.com>
	<20081002023242.GJ23900@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
	<1222965139.3452.195.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<95f1114b0810021520s6c1f1f38wd18a6cb8a6f01864@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223159307.2989.6.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 08:20 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 22:32 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> >
> >> Note that the su command removes the need for the user to look for
> >> niggling prompt details.  It also clarifies that the user should
> >> expect a prompt for the root password.
> >
> > In part of that discussion with the Content Services team, we discussed
> > the need for sudo to be enabled by default.  One person was in favor of
> > having each document specify how to enable sudo, but I don't like that
> > rat hole.  That is another point we could discuss, however, if any
> > Anonymous Cowards are interested in fixing the common usage.  Meanwhile,
> > I'm advocating for a sane sudo-by-default in future Fedora versions so
> > we can stop having to use 'su -c'.
> >
> > - Karsten
> 
> I leave this out. I have text preceding the command saying "Run the
> following command as the Linux root user:", because I'm too lazy to
> decide between sudo or su ;)

I agree that a standard for documentation purposes of using 'su -c' or
'sudo' is a good thing. On a tangent, however, I have noticed with sudo
that it doesn't always find the command that the user is trying to run.
For example, try and run restorecon as sudo. It doesn't work
out-of-the-box at least for me anyway.

-Jason
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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Sat Oct  4 23:10:51 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 09:10:51 +1000
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1223159307.2989.6.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222900055.3251.5.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<e3fb97f30810011538h63a25265lbff7917182e92a95@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0810011712n10120dbek19b138916b8b11d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3fb97f30810011826k551c82bdu37bf72f0580f0cda@mail.gmail.com>
	<8E3F2AF0-45E8-4579-BE1D-16E136E50665@gmail.com>
	<20081002023242.GJ23900@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
	<1222965139.3452.195.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<95f1114b0810021520s6c1f1f38wd18a6cb8a6f01864@mail.gmail.com>
	<1223159307.2989.6.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810041610k3247bbf2o42ebada9190cbdb6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:28 AM, Jason Taylor <jmtaylor90 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 08:20 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 22:32 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>> >
>> >> Note that the su command removes the need for the user to look for
>> >> niggling prompt details.  It also clarifies that the user should
>> >> expect a prompt for the root password.
>> >
>> > In part of that discussion with the Content Services team, we discussed
>> > the need for sudo to be enabled by default.  One person was in favor of
>> > having each document specify how to enable sudo, but I don't like that
>> > rat hole.  That is another point we could discuss, however, if any
>> > Anonymous Cowards are interested in fixing the common usage.  Meanwhile,
>> > I'm advocating for a sane sudo-by-default in future Fedora versions so
>> > we can stop having to use 'su -c'.
>> >
>> > - Karsten
>>
>> I leave this out. I have text preceding the command saying "Run the
>> following command as the Linux root user:", because I'm too lazy to
>> decide between sudo or su ;)
>
> I agree that a standard for documentation purposes of using 'su -c' or
> 'sudo' is a good thing. On a tangent, however, I have noticed with sudo
> that it doesn't always find the command that the user is trying to run.
> For example, try and run restorecon as sudo. It doesn't work
> out-of-the-box at least for me anyway.
>
> -Jason

Not that it helps for previous versions, but new users on
rawhide/Fedora 10 get all paths (not sure of the correct terminology),
so running sudo for anything just works:

[newuser at localhost ~]$ echo $PATH
/usr/lib/qt-3.3/bin:/usr/kerberos/bin:/usr/local/bin:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/home/newuser/bin

Lars E. Pettersson wrote to fedora-desktop-list, "Why not instead try
to educate people to use a really strong password for root, only use
root when necessary, and perhaps teach them to add certain
not-that-dangerous-commands to sudo?"[1]

Probably too much hassle, but at the start of each guide, you could
document how to add only the commands used in the guide to Cmnd_Alias
in "/etc/sudoers".

Cheers.

[1] <https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-October/msg00007.html>



From kam at kamsalisbury.com  Sun Oct  5 03:59:00 2008
From: kam at kamsalisbury.com (Kam)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 23:59:00 -0400
Subject: prompts in command examples
Message-ID: <48e83bd2.1335640a.0bf0.01f1@mx.google.com>

With Fedora-live sudo does not work as expected either. It leads to additonal confusion.

--
Kam
http://kamsalisbury.com
GPG key: FAF1751E

-----Original Message-----

From:  Jason Taylor <jmtaylor90 at gmail.com>
Subj:  Re: prompts in command examples
Date:  Sat Oct 4, 2008 6:29 pm
Size:  1K
To:  For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list at redhat.com>

On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 08:20 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 22:32 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> >
> >> Note that the su command removes the need for the user to look for
> >> niggling prompt details.  It also clarifies that the user should
> >> expect a prompt for the root password.
> >
> > In part of that discussion with the Content Services team, we discussed
> > the need for sudo to be enabled by default.  One person was in favor of
> > having each document specify how to enable sudo, but I don't like that
> > rat hole.  That is another point we could discuss, however, if any
> > Anonymous Cowards are interested in fixing the common usage.  Meanwhile,
> > I'm advocating for a sane sudo-by-default in future Fedora versions so
> > we can stop having to use 'su -c'.
> >
> > - Karsten
> 
> I leave this out. I have text preceding the command saying "Run the
> following command as the Linux root user:", because I'm too lazy to
> decide between sudo or su ;)

I agree that a standard for documentation purposes of using 'su -c' or
'sudo' is a good thing. On a tangent, however, I have noticed with sudo
that it doesn't always find the command that the user is trying to run.
For example, try and run restorecon as sudo. It doesn't work
out-of-the-box at least for me anyway.

-Jason



--- attachment signature.asc ---

--- attachment noname 2.txt ---

--- message truncated ---




From kwade at redhat.com  Sun Oct  5 21:01:37 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:01:37 -0700
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <48e83bd2.1335640a.0bf0.01f1@mx.google.com>
References: <48e83bd2.1335640a.0bf0.01f1@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <1223240497.3452.388.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 23:59 -0400, Kam wrote:
> With Fedora-live sudo does not work as expected either. It leads to
> additonal confusion.

We used to maintain a sudo tutorial, which gives us a single, external
reference for all-things-sudo without repeating it in each guide/on each
page.

However, this breaks the model that Elizabeth (Ann optional?) proposed,
which I generally agree with.  For the User Guide, we want them not to
have to use the super-user powers, but what do we do when they have to?

Myself, I like the original compromise that Murry brought here, thus
interpreted:

* Be consistent, either 'su -c' or 'sudo' and all that entails
* Don't show the prompt in giving a command; it should be cuttable and
pastable as-is
* Show the appropriate prompt symbol only when showing a set of example
output (<screen> block), as that is what the user literally sees.
* Also don't show the $PS1, which is the user/host info ([foo at localhost
tmp]$)

Maybe we want to add:

* Use full path to command when it is not likely to be in the _user's_
default path, which is changing for F10.

My vote on 'su -c' v. 'sudo' is not set yet.  I could be swayed in to a
sudo tutorial, if we could really do that consistently.  Otherwise, we
have to go for the common command that will work _everywhere_, which is
'su -c'.  If the user doesn't have the root password for that command to
work, the user should not be doing the command in the first place!

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Sun Oct  5 21:46:01 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:46:01 +1000
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1223240497.3452.388.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <48e83bd2.1335640a.0bf0.01f1@mx.google.com>
	<1223240497.3452.388.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810051446j45025a1y8655fb516a3143c0@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 7:01 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
[snip]
> * Use full path to command when it is not likely to be in the _user's_
> default path, which is changing for F10.

I started using the full path, then realized it is not needed for
Fedora 10, so I stopped using it. I'm going to go back and fix all of
these up, because everyone reading might not have Fedora 10 :(

Should documentation for Fedora 10 assume that people only use Fedora
10 (e.g. do not use the full path)?



From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Sun Oct  5 23:29:41 2008
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 04:59:41 +0530
Subject: A New Look at How We Write Content for the Desktop User Guide
Message-ID: <78323d480810051629ga594600wb6919579c50a8f90@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Elizabeth Ann West  wrote:


> operating system. These suggestions below are only for the Desktop Users
> Guide, the specialized guide for new users of Fedora, presumably coming
> from Windows, without Linux experience.

Some of the users may be having no prior experience with computers.
Manuals for such people should include screen shots ...  and that is
an optimization problem!

>
> For discussion purposes, this is the old page:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide/Financial
>
> This is the new and improved page:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide-Financial_Software
>


1. New user does not learn about the name of the Add/Remove Software
program. The first occurrence of "Add/Remove Software program" can be
replaced by "Add/Remove Software program (called 'Pirut')".

2. 'kicker' is the whole of the main panel. "Fedora icon in the lower
left corner called the Kicker" is just wrong.

3. There are two minor typos towards the end...."kickerand" and a
missing 'on' in the last line

Otherwise, it is good.


Best

A. Mani



-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc


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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Sun Oct  5 23:36:18 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:36:18 +1000
Subject: publishing documentation in Fedora
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810051636k7f12b69fi69564ea0c5bddb9@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Two questions:

1. Is there any documentation on the procedure for having
documentation published in Fedora, for example, hosted on
<http://docs.fedoraproject.org/>?

2. To get documentation in there, do I have to use the fedora-docs
toolchain to make the RPMs?

Cheers.



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Sun Oct  5 23:46:19 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:46:19 +1000
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1223240497.3452.388.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <48e83bd2.1335640a.0bf0.01f1@mx.google.com>
	<1223240497.3452.388.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810051646t4914c72tfacc8faddd698d6@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 7:01 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 23:59 -0400, Kam wrote:
>> With Fedora-live sudo does not work as expected either. It leads to
>> additonal confusion.
>
> We used to maintain a sudo tutorial, which gives us a single, external
> reference for all-things-sudo without repeating it in each guide/on each
> page.
>
> However, this breaks the model that Elizabeth (Ann optional?) proposed,
> which I generally agree with.  For the User Guide, we want them not to
> have to use the super-user powers, but what do we do when they have to?
>
> Myself, I like the original compromise that Murry brought here, thus
> interpreted:
>
> * Be consistent, either 'su -c' or 'sudo' and all that entails

(At the moment I'm not using either)

> * Don't show the prompt in giving a command; it should be cuttable and
> pastable as-is
> * Show the appropriate prompt symbol only when showing a set of example
> output (<screen> block), as that is what the user literally sees.
> * Also don't show the $PS1, which is the user/host info ([foo at localhost
> tmp]$)

I've used user at host once to make sure they are logged in as the user
(newuser) created in the previous steps, otherwise I leave this out.
Before you jump on this, I was not being lazy, and the text before
makes it crystal clear to log in as this user ;)

>
> Maybe we want to add:
>
> * Use full path to command when it is not likely to be in the _user's_
> default path, which is changing for F10.
>
> My vote on 'su -c' v. 'sudo' is not set yet.  I could be swayed in to a
> sudo tutorial, if we could really do that consistently.  Otherwise, we
> have to go for the common command that will work _everywhere_, which is
> 'su -c'.  If the user doesn't have the root password for that command to
> work, the user should not be doing the command in the first place!
>
> - Karsten
> --
> Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
> Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
> Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
> gpg key : AD0E0C41
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 12:40:19 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:40:19 -0400
Subject: publishing documentation in Fedora
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0810051636k7f12b69fi69564ea0c5bddb9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810051636k7f12b69fi69564ea0c5bddb9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081006124019.GD6144@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 09:36:18AM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> 1. Is there any documentation on the procedure for having
> documentation published in Fedora, for example, hosted on
> <http://docs.fedoraproject.org/>?

Refer to the Documentation Guide, chapter 7:
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/documentation-guide/

> 2. To get documentation in there, do I have to use the fedora-docs
> toolchain to make the RPMs?

You only need an HTML build, no RPMs required.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net  Mon Oct  6 18:42:35 2008
From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:42:35 -0400
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223318555.3622.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> ls -Z /tmp

[snip]

> # ls -Z /tmp

Here's my take, for what it's worth.  Can we do something like:

<screen><computeroutput>[root at localhost ~]#</computeroutput>
<userinput>ls -Z /tmp</userinput></screen> and style them differently so
that it's clear?

I know what you're thinking... crazy talk, right?

-Jared



From kwade at redhat.com  Mon Oct  6 19:57:54 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:57:54 -0700
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1223318555.3622.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1223318555.3622.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1223323074.3452.443.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Mon, 2008-10-06 at 14:42 -0400, Jared Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> > ls -Z /tmp
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > # ls -Z /tmp
> 
> Here's my take, for what it's worth.  Can we do something like:
> 
> <screen><computeroutput>[root at localhost ~]#</computeroutput>
> <userinput>ls -Z /tmp</userinput></screen> and style them differently so
> that it's clear?
> 
> I know what you're thinking... crazy talk, right?

Only if in styling them differently, we were able to make plain text
output do something sane ... such as removing the prompt all
together. :)  I cannot see how we could tell without some clever and
specific usage so XSLT could detect it.

Also, wouldn't it be:

<screen><prompt>...</prompt><userinput>...</userinput></screen>

?

There is definite value in having full and proper contextual markup,
although it is a PITA in some cases getting fully specific.

- Karsten, who wants to be ready for the Braille stylesheet ...
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 21:45:24 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 07:45:24 +1000
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1223318555.3622.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <95f1114b0810011517l228a66aegc50f11d99ecb6cf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<1223318555.3622.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810061445w307ec8acneaff9468494e98cb@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 4:42 AM, Jared Smith <jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 08:17 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
>> ls -Z /tmp
>
> [snip]
>
>> # ls -Z /tmp
>
> Here's my take, for what it's worth.  Can we do something like:
>
> <screen><computeroutput>[root at localhost ~]#</computeroutput>
> <userinput>ls -Z /tmp</userinput></screen> and style them differently so
> that it's clear?
>
> I know what you're thinking... crazy talk, right?
>
> -Jared
I have not tried this. Does it look much different than:

<screen>
[root at localhost ~] # ls -Z
</screen>

I try to only use <replaceable> inside <screen>.

Cheers



From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 00:19:29 2008
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 05:49:29 +0530
Subject: Self-Introduction: A. Mani
Message-ID: <78323d480810061719u5112aac1o2bdda39ac9a6fa87@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello All,
                 My name is A. Mani. I am a Mathematician and a logician.
My research interests are in Algebra, Partial Algebra, Logic, Rough
Sets and Foundations of Mathematics.

I am good in specifications, formal specifications, R, Prolog, Scheme, LaTeX and
scientific computing too. This has led to a few part-time projects
during the last few years.

I have been involved in FLOSS and OSS promotion for over six years
and see a very bright future for the Fedora project. I coordinate the
activities of ILUG-CALINFO
(www.ilug-cal.info) and am active at LQ too.

I would like to improve existing documentation and contribute to
specialized sections.

My wiki page is at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:amani
My homepage is at http://amani.topcities.com

I am a Fedora Ambassador too.

Best

A. Mani



- --
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc



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From dev at nigelj.com  Tue Oct  7 02:22:36 2008
From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:22:36 +1300
Subject: Footnoteable Wiki
Message-ID: <1223346156.3242.6.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz>

Hi Everyone,

The Fedora Orbital Laser[1] has cooled down enough to allow us to work
on getting Footnotes[2] in the wiki[3].

There is some excellent documentation[4] on the Mediawiki website on how
to use them if you have not in the past.

Thank you for bearing through this announcement[5],

Nigel Jones[6]

--References--

[1]
http://www.mail-archive.com/fedora-announce-list at redhat.com/msg01140.html
[2] Not to be mistaken with 'Foodnotes'
[3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/
[4] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite/Cite.php#Usage
[5] I use too many footnotes eh?

-- 
[6] Nigel Jones <dev at nigelj.com>



From noriko at redhat.com  Tue Oct  7 03:01:41 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:01:41 +1000
Subject: F10 Schedule Revised
In-Reply-To: <48E62D0B.4090603@redhat.com>
References: <48E62D0B.4090603@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <48EAD115.2000305@redhat.com>

John Poelstra ????????:
> I have published updated schedules based on the great gobby editing 
> sessions we had this week with the Documentation and Translation teams. 
>  Note each schedule only shows the tasks for that specific team... we 
> can adjust this if that is confusing:
> 
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-docs-tasks.html
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-trans-tasks.html

I can not see any deadline date for Installation Guide in trans-tasks.
I am assuming that will be 24-Nov from docs-tasks.
Could you please clarify this?

Can you also change wording for easy understanding?
   Current: "Release Notes PO Files completed by Translation."
   To be: "Release Notes Translation Deadline"
and
   Current: "Translation Deadline for fedoraproject.org"
   To be: "fedoraproject.org (web) Translation Deadline"

I think the following can be change to better expression.
   Current: "Translate xxxxx (POT to PO)"
   To be: "Drop xxxxx PO files (POT to PO)"

Thanks!
noriko

> 
> For a view of all combined tasks for all teams:
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-all-tasks.html
> 
> As I mentioned during the Documentation session, I hope this process 
> isn't too frustrating.  I think it will take a few iterations to make 
> sure we are all using and understanding the same terminology.  There is 
> probably still some work to be done around the 0-day tasks as someone 
> pointed out on the translation list.
> 
> So next I'm proposing that both Documentation and Translation meet on 
> gobby and if possible fedora talk (for audio conversation) next week to 
> work out the remaining points of difference and confusion :)
> 
> Thanks again for your patience and I hope this process is helpful.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Fedora-trans-list mailing list
> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list



From jonstanley at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 04:06:14 2008
From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 00:06:14 -0400
Subject: F10 Schedule Revised
In-Reply-To: <20081003153717.GF2826@salma.internal.frields.org>
References: <48E62D0B.4090603@redhat.com>
	<20081003153717.GF2826@salma.internal.frields.org>
Message-ID: <da159fda0810062106l6dfd48a0x593e6691a824ad12@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:

> even with only 3 people I think Fedora Talk held us back at times.

Sorry for the tangent here - but in what way did it hold you back? I'm
really interested,



From mhideo at redhat.com  Tue Oct  7 05:05:31 2008
From: mhideo at redhat.com (Michael Hideo-Smith)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 01:05:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: publishing documentation in Fedora
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0810051636k7f12b69fi69564ea0c5bddb9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <734514791.914191223355931325.JavaMail.root@zmail01.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>


----- "Murray McAllister" <murray.mcallister at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: "Murray McAllister" <murray.mcallister at gmail.com>
> To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" <fedora-docs-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 9:36:18 AM GMT +10:00 Brisbane
> Subject: publishing documentation in Fedora
>
> Hi,
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> 1. Is there any documentation on the procedure for having
> documentation published in Fedora, for example, hosted on
> <http://docs.fedoraproject.org/>?
> 
> 2. To get documentation in there, do I have to use the fedora-docs
> toolchain to make the RPMs?
> 

try publican and see if you can push into koji to see what happens.



From dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu  Tue Oct  7 16:55:49 2008
From: dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu (Dale Bewley)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:55:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: input on F10 virtualization release notes
In-Reply-To: <2131900444.281591223398293181.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <486886383.282141223398549554.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>

I've been working on the virtualization release notes[1] for Fedora 10
these past several days, and I'm looking for input from those in the
know. The advances coming out of the Emerging Technologies projects and
Fedora in general are very impressive, and I'd like to do them justice.

I added a lot of content quickly yesterday, and the page structure
is by no means solid, but there is a pending freeze[2] on October
10th. I'd like to get it into the best and most accurate shape
possible before then. There will be a chance to make updates again
before the F10 release.

I've attempted to describe the improvements to virtualization-related
packages between the F9 release versions and the anticipated F10
versions. I've created a table[3] of those versions to help with the
comparison. I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know:

* if you believe a version bump is pending
* if I've left out any packages or features
* if I included something not noteworthy
* anything else you have to say

If you have any comments, contributions, or criticisms at all, please
add them to the wiki article/talk page/or email them to me.

Thanks! And keep up the great work! 

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Virtualization
[2] http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-docs-tasks.html
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DaleBewley#Virtualization_Release_Notes

--
Dale Bewley - Unix Administrator - Shields Library - UC Davis
GPG: 0xB098A0F3 0D5A 9AEB 43F4 F84C 7EFD  1753 064D 2583 B098 A0F3



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Oct  7 19:25:34 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:25:34 -0700
Subject: A New Look at How We Write Content for the Desktop User Guide
In-Reply-To: <78323d480810051629ga594600wb6919579c50a8f90@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78323d480810051629ga594600wb6919579c50a8f90@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223407534.3452.491.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Mon, 2008-10-06 at 04:59 +0530, Mani A wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Elizabeth Ann West  wrote:
> 
> 
> > operating system. These suggestions below are only for the Desktop Users
> > Guide, the specialized guide for new users of Fedora, presumably coming
> > from Windows, without Linux experience.
> 
> Some of the users may be having no prior experience with computers.
> Manuals for such people should include screen shots ...  and that is
> an optimization problem!

Agreed that there is a need for computer education for people without
experience using computers, but are we sure that Fedora wants to work on
that problem?

I think I'd rather see some common, upstream documentation that handles
that, such as from GNOME and KDE.  Then we can build from that as a
base.

> 1. New user does not learn about the name of the Add/Remove Software
> program. The first occurrence of "Add/Remove Software program" can be
> replaced by "Add/Remove Software program (called 'Pirut')".

How do they not learn about it?  Sorry, I'm not getting the initial
point.

In Fedora 9 and beyond, it is now PackageKit, and the main way to get it
is through the same '''Add/Remove Software''' launcher.  Because that is
setup to be a sort of alias or abstraction layer, I wonder if we want to
bother naming the application that currently runs underneath it?

For handling software updates in the Fedora 9 version of the User Guide,
it sounds like a good idea to keep Pirut/Pup documentation.  Note they
are a useful alternative that may have more features than came in the
initial PackageKit implementation.

> 2. 'kicker' is the whole of the main panel. "Fedora icon in the lower
> left corner called the Kicker" is just wrong.

I've never heard of any of that before.  Is there a canonical reference?

cheers - Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Oct  7 19:42:17 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:42:17 -0700
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0810051446j45025a1y8655fb516a3143c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48e83bd2.1335640a.0bf0.01f1@mx.google.com>
	<1223240497.3452.388.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<95f1114b0810051446j45025a1y8655fb516a3143c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223408537.3452.506.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Mon, 2008-10-06 at 07:46 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 7:01 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> > * Use full path to command when it is not likely to be in the _user's_
> > default path, which is changing for F10.
> 
> I started using the full path, then realized it is not needed for
> Fedora 10, so I stopped using it. I'm going to go back and fix all of
> these up, because everyone reading might not have Fedora 10 :(
> 
> Should documentation for Fedora 10 assume that people only use Fedora
> 10 (e.g. do not use the full path)?

That is a great question.  I just confirmed in the Beta that the user
$PATH is functionally the same as root's (minus /usr/kerberos/sbin).

It appears we can, for the first time, remove full paths from most
commands.  One can always use it for clarity sake, but the full path
usually clutters the content.

Any objections?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 22:03:38 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:03:38 +1000
Subject: prompts in command examples
In-Reply-To: <1223408537.3452.506.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <48e83bd2.1335640a.0bf0.01f1@mx.google.com>
	<1223240497.3452.388.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<95f1114b0810051446j45025a1y8655fb516a3143c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1223408537.3452.506.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810071503s76800bb3ufd2d8db7a3239df9@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2008-10-06 at 07:46 +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 7:01 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> > * Use full path to command when it is not likely to be in the _user's_
>> > default path, which is changing for F10.
>>
>> I started using the full path, then realized it is not needed for
>> Fedora 10, so I stopped using it. I'm going to go back and fix all of
>> these up, because everyone reading might not have Fedora 10 :(
>>
>> Should documentation for Fedora 10 assume that people only use Fedora
>> 10 (e.g. do not use the full path)?
>
> That is a great question.  I just confirmed in the Beta that the user
> $PATH is functionally the same as root's (minus /usr/kerberos/sbin).
>
> It appears we can, for the first time, remove full paths from most
> commands.  One can always use it for clarity sake, but the full path
> usually clutters the content.
>
> Any objections?
>
> - Karsten
I'm leaving full paths in the SELinux User Guide (to accommodate F9
users), unless there are objections ;)



From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 23:44:46 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:44:46 -0400
Subject: F10 Schedule Revised
In-Reply-To: <da159fda0810062106l6dfd48a0x593e6691a824ad12@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48E62D0B.4090603@redhat.com>
	<20081003153717.GF2826@salma.internal.frields.org>
	<da159fda0810062106l6dfd48a0x593e6691a824ad12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223423086.20159.17.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 00:06 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > even with only 3 people I think Fedora Talk held us back at times.
> 
> Sorry for the tangent here - but in what way did it hold you back? I'm
> really interested,

Not for technical reasons -- it was more that conference calls that are
essentially, "Let's all do <XXXX>," suffer from everyone talking at once
too much.  (And I point that finger *firmly* at myself first and
foremost.)  IRC is lower bandwidth but when everyone is doing something
at once, communication is *easier* to interleave that way.  For more
orderly meetings, IRC can be less effective -- not always, but
sometimes.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct  8 01:07:56 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:07:56 -0700
Subject: fedora-wiki-list?
Message-ID: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>

Nigel proposed today that we form a separate list for wiki-focused
discussions.

Much as I hate promoting list proliferation, these reasons make sense:

* Cross-section of many Fedora groups that could use a low(er) volume,
wiki-only list for:  guidelines; usage; new tools; tips; wiki-specific
decisions that affect all projects; etc.

* These same people (packagers, artists, translators, coders,
ambassadors, etc.) don't want nor need to be subscribed to
fedora-docs-list to get this information.

* Especially as we talk about multi-lingual wikis and the complexity
increases, we could use a stand-alone list for discussion.

Thoughts?

+1 or -1 or 0?


cheers - Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From dev at nigelj.com  Wed Oct  8 01:15:02 2008
From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:15:02 +1300
Subject: fedora-wiki-list?
In-Reply-To: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1223428502.3242.180.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz>

On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 18:07 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> Nigel proposed today that we form a separate list for wiki-focused
> discussions.
Errr yeah, I've been busier than a chipmunk on P today so I forgot to
post, thanks!
> 
> Much as I hate promoting list proliferation, these reasons make sense:
> 
> * Cross-section of many Fedora groups that could use a low(er) volume,
> wiki-only list for:  guidelines; usage; new tools; tips; wiki-specific
> decisions that affect all projects; etc.
> 
> * These same people (packagers, artists, translators, coders,
> ambassadors, etc.) don't want nor need to be subscribed to
> fedora-docs-list to get this information.
> 
> * Especially as we talk about multi-lingual wikis and the complexity
> increases, we could use a stand-alone list for discussion.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> +1 or -1 or 0?
+1 - obviously
> 
> 
> cheers - Karsten
> -- 
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: 
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
-- 
Nigel Jones <dev at nigelj.com>



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 01:35:30 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:35:30 +1000
Subject: fedora-wiki-list?
In-Reply-To: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810071835p1c30ff0eh7cf6bd9a8c86bb4c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
> Nigel proposed today that we form a separate list for wiki-focused
> discussions.
>
> Much as I hate promoting list proliferation, these reasons make sense:
>
> * Cross-section of many Fedora groups that could use a low(er) volume,
> wiki-only list for:  guidelines; usage; new tools; tips; wiki-specific
> decisions that affect all projects; etc.
>
> * These same people (packagers, artists, translators, coders,
> ambassadors, etc.) don't want nor need to be subscribed to
> fedora-docs-list to get this information.
>
> * Especially as we talk about multi-lingual wikis and the complexity
> increases, we could use a stand-alone list for discussion.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> +1 or -1 or 0?

Speaking of new mailing lists:
<https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/741>

:D



From dev at nigelj.com  Wed Oct  8 01:17:25 2008
From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:17:25 +1300
Subject: fedora-wiki-list?
In-Reply-To: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1223428645.3242.188.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz>

On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 18:07 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> Nigel proposed today that we form a separate list for wiki-focused
> discussions.
> 
> Much as I hate promoting list proliferation, these reasons make sense:
> 
> * Cross-section of many Fedora groups that could use a low(er) volume,
> wiki-only list for:  guidelines; usage; new tools; tips; wiki-specific
> decisions that affect all projects; etc.
> 
> * These same people (packagers, artists, translators, coders,
> ambassadors, etc.) don't want nor need to be subscribed to
> fedora-docs-list to get this information.
> 
> * Especially as we talk about multi-lingual wikis and the complexity
> increases, we could use a stand-alone list for discussion.
* Creates less confusion on where to post wiki related stuff, so it'd be
a way to prevent cross posting between fedora-websites-list and
fedora-docs-list - it drives me batty...
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> +1 or -1 or 0?
> 
> 
> cheers - Karsten
> -- 
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: 
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
-- 
Nigel Jones <dev at nigelj.com>



From dev at nigelj.com  Wed Oct  8 03:21:10 2008
From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 16:21:10 +1300
Subject: Fedora Elections Guide - ...---... (SOS)
Message-ID: <1223436070.3242.418.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz>

Hi folks,

I just made a post to fedora-marketing-list inviting interested people
into helping write some fresh content for the Fedora Elections Guide, a
draft I did a few months back can be seen at
http://nigelj.fedorapeople.org/feg/ but it'll need a lot of updating
(that I don't have time for) with the new release I'm working on.

I'll be putting the Fedora branding on (so where it does GFDL, I'll
relicense it as OPL) and throw up the XML sometime soon.  But in the
mean time, anyone interested?

It'll be about a week before there is anything new to write about, but
it's a start.

- Nigel
-- 
Nigel Jones <dev at nigelj.com>



From ianweller at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 03:21:33 2008
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:21:33 -0500
Subject: fedora-wiki-list?
In-Reply-To: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <20081008032120.GB32338@gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 06:07:56PM -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> Nigel proposed today that we form a separate list for wiki-focused
> discussions.
> 
> Much as I hate promoting list proliferation, these reasons make sense:
> 
> * Cross-section of many Fedora groups that could use a low(er) volume,
> wiki-only list for:  guidelines; usage; new tools; tips; wiki-specific
> decisions that affect all projects; etc.
> 
> * These same people (packagers, artists, translators, coders,
> ambassadors, etc.) don't want nor need to be subscribed to
> fedora-docs-list to get this information.
> 
> * Especially as we talk about multi-lingual wikis and the complexity
> increases, we could use a stand-alone list for discussion.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> +1 or -1 or 0?
> 
There are definitely the merits to having a wiki list... in addition,
it'd be a nice place to direct people to ask about syntax, or for new
templates. (/me waves)

But then, where do you draw the line between f-docs-l and f-wiki-l --
between talking about how the content is created and how the content is
written? It almost seems like there's an unremovable overlap.

I'm personally iffy about it but I think the reasons *for* it are good
enough to request it. I have no problem with setting up another mailbox
filter. :)

In other words, a weak +1

-- 
Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com>                  http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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From ianweller at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 03:22:25 2008
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:22:25 -0500
Subject: fedora-wiki-list?
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0810071835p1c30ff0eh7cf6bd9a8c86bb4c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<95f1114b0810071835p1c30ff0eh7cf6bd9a8c86bb4c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081008032225.GC32338@gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 11:35:30AM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> Speaking of new mailing lists:
> <https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/741>
> 
> :D
> 
Hahahahah I remember the conversation on IRC that started this joke. I
still can't believe the ticket hasn't been triaged into oblivion. ;)

-- 
Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com>                  http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct  8 07:27:12 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 00:27:12 -0700
Subject: F10 Schedule Revised
In-Reply-To: <48EAD115.2000305@redhat.com>
References: <48E62D0B.4090603@redhat.com>  <48EAD115.2000305@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1223450832.3452.526.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 13:01 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> John Poelstra ????????:
> > I have published updated schedules based on the great gobby editing 
> > sessions we had this week with the Documentation and Translation teams. 
> >  Note each schedule only shows the tasks for that specific team... we 
> > can adjust this if that is confusing:
> > 
> > http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-docs-tasks.html
> > http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-trans-tasks.html
> 
> I can not see any deadline date for Installation Guide in trans-tasks.
> I am assuming that will be 24-Nov from docs-tasks.
> Could you please clarify this?

I think it is 27-Oct to 31-Oct for the Preview of the Installation
Guide.  Then it looks like 21-Nov or 20-Nov for the final Installation
Guide.  The Preview is a best-effort, we publish whatever is translated
by 31-Oct.

You are correct that those are not explicit in either schedule.

> Can you also change wording for easy understanding?
>    Current: "Release Notes PO Files completed by Translation."
>    To be: "Release Notes Translation Deadline"

+1 Sounds better.

>    Current: "Translation Deadline for fedoraproject.org"
>    To be: "fedoraproject.org (web) Translation Deadline"
> 
> I think the following can be change to better expression.
>    Current: "Translate xxxxx (POT to PO)"
>    To be: "Drop xxxxx PO files (POT to PO)"

I think that task is, "Translate the strings in the POT file, making or
updating the PO file for your language."  Is that what "drop" means?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kam at kamsalisbury.com  Wed Oct  8 10:51:38 2008
From: kam at kamsalisbury.com (Kam)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 03:51:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: fedora-wiki-list?
Message-ID: <48ec90ba.8905be0a.26db.6527@mx.google.com>

+1  wiki topics can stand on their own in a seperate list.

--
Kam
http://kamsalisbury.com
GPG key: FAF1751E

-----Original Message-----

From:  "Karsten 'quaid' Wade" <kwade at redhat.com>
Subj:  fedora-wiki-list?
Date:  Tue Oct 7, 2008 9:08 pm
Size:  911 bytes
To:  fedora-docs-list at redhat.com

Nigel proposed today that we form a separate list for wiki-focused
discussions.

Much as I hate promoting list proliferation, these reasons make sense:

* Cross-section of many Fedora groups that could use a low(er) volume,
wiki-only list for:  guidelines; usage; new tools; tips; wiki-specific
decisions that affect all projects; etc.

* These same people (packagers, artists, translators, coders,
ambassadors, etc.) don't want nor need to be subscribed to
fedora-docs-list to get this information.

* Especially as we talk about multi-lingual wikis and the complexity
increases, we could use a stand-alone list for discussion.

Thoughts?

+1 or -1 or 0?


cheers - Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41



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From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 11:35:03 2008
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason Taylor)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 07:35:03 -0400
Subject: fedora-wiki-list?
In-Reply-To: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1223465703.3092.0.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 18:07 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> Nigel proposed today that we form a separate list for wiki-focused
> discussions.
> 
> Much as I hate promoting list proliferation, these reasons make sense:
> 
> * Cross-section of many Fedora groups that could use a low(er) volume,
> wiki-only list for:  guidelines; usage; new tools; tips; wiki-specific
> decisions that affect all projects; etc.
> 
> * These same people (packagers, artists, translators, coders,
> ambassadors, etc.) don't want nor need to be subscribed to
> fedora-docs-list to get this information.
> 
> * Especially as we talk about multi-lingual wikis and the complexity
> increases, we could use a stand-alone list for discussion.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> +1 or -1 or 0?
> 
> 
> cheers - Karsten
> -- 

+1 from me

-Jason
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 12:26:38 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:26:38 +0000
Subject: fedora-wiki-list?
In-Reply-To: <20081008032120.GB32338@gmail.com>
References: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<20081008032120.GB32338@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223468798.3457.38.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 22:21 -0500, Ian Weller wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 06:07:56PM -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> > Nigel proposed today that we form a separate list for wiki-focused
> > discussions.
> > 
> > Much as I hate promoting list proliferation, these reasons make sense:
> > 
> > * Cross-section of many Fedora groups that could use a low(er) volume,
> > wiki-only list for:  guidelines; usage; new tools; tips; wiki-specific
> > decisions that affect all projects; etc.
> > 
> > * These same people (packagers, artists, translators, coders,
> > ambassadors, etc.) don't want nor need to be subscribed to
> > fedora-docs-list to get this information.
> > 
> > * Especially as we talk about multi-lingual wikis and the complexity
> > increases, we could use a stand-alone list for discussion.
> > 
> > Thoughts?
> > 
> > +1 or -1 or 0?
> > 
> There are definitely the merits to having a wiki list... in addition,
> it'd be a nice place to direct people to ask about syntax, or for new
> templates. (/me waves)
> 
> But then, where do you draw the line between f-docs-l and f-wiki-l --
> between talking about how the content is created and how the content is
> written? It almost seems like there's an unremovable overlap.
> 
> I'm personally iffy about it but I think the reasons *for* it are good
> enough to request it. I have no problem with setting up another mailbox
> filter. :)
> 
> In other words, a weak +1

Is the a reason we don't want to claim this on f-docs-l once and for
all?  I mean, it's not like our traffic here is overwhelming now.  We
could simply say, "All wiki discussion --> f-docs-l," and ask people not
to cross-post that material.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 12:28:50 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:28:50 +0000
Subject: Fedora Elections Guide - ...---... (SOS)
In-Reply-To: <1223436070.3242.418.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz>
References: <1223436070.3242.418.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz>
Message-ID: <1223468930.3457.41.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 16:21 +1300, Nigel Jones wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> I just made a post to fedora-marketing-list inviting interested people
> into helping write some fresh content for the Fedora Elections Guide, a
> draft I did a few months back can be seen at
> http://nigelj.fedorapeople.org/feg/ but it'll need a lot of updating
> (that I don't have time for) with the new release I'm working on.
> 
> I'll be putting the Fedora branding on (so where it does GFDL, I'll
> relicense it as OPL) and throw up the XML sometime soon.  But in the
> mean time, anyone interested?
> 
> It'll be about a week before there is anything new to write about, but
> it's a start.

Looked at it this morning -- great start, indeed.  Where can people grab
the DocBook to send you patches?

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 15:45:08 2008
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:15:08 +0530
Subject: A New Look at How We Write Content for the Desktop User Guide
Message-ID: <78323d480810080845s548c4172s4800ae55ccebae7b@mail.gmail.com>

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Hash: SHA1

"Karsten 'quaid' Wade"  wrote:

>
> Agreed that there is a need for computer education for people without
> experience using computers, but are we sure that Fedora wants to work on
> that problem?
Certainly it should. ..We want a bigger user-base.
> I think I'd rather see some common, upstream documentation that handles
> that, such as from GNOME and KDE.  Then we can build from that as a
> base.

Neither of them can possibly handle distro-specific features in a
reasonable way.
More directions will only mean faster adoption and a more stable user-base.

>> 1. New user does not learn about the name of the Add/Remove Software
>> program. The first occurrence of "Add/Remove Software program" can be
>> replaced by "Add/Remove Software program (called 'Pirut')".
>
> How do they not learn about it?  Sorry, I'm not getting the initial
> point.

I think it is better if we tell the user about the underlying program
at some point.
The main reason is that, users can resolve simple issues with the
ability to launch a program from the CLI.

> In Fedora 9 and beyond, it is now PackageKit, and the main way to get it
> is through the same '''Add/Remove Software''' launcher.  Because that is
> setup to be a sort of alias or abstraction layer, I wonder if we want to
> bother naming the application that currently runs underneath it?

 To call it "Add/Remove Programs" in a GUI is certainly 'being
user-friendly'. In user guides at least, it is a good idea to speak
about the underlying program.

> For handling software updates in the Fedora 9 version of the User Guide,
> it sounds like a good idea to keep Pirut/Pup documentation.  Note they
> are a useful alternative that may have more features than came in the
> initial PackageKit implementation.

...and with a direct GUI link. That is, instead of the usual
"Launcher--> Help -->...", we can have two menu items off "Add/Remove
Program ".

>> 2. 'kicker' is the whole of the main panel. "Fedora icon in the lower
>> left corner called the Kicker" is just wrong.
>
> I've never heard of any of that before.  Is there a canonical reference?

In kde3.*, "kicker" is the whole of the main panel and a command as well.
It is 'Plasma' in kde4.*. Apart from the usual KDE documentation, you can see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kicker_(KDE)

Best

A. Mani




-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc

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From david at gnsa.us  Wed Oct  8 16:53:30 2008
From: david at gnsa.us (David Nalley)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:53:30 -0400
Subject: A New Look at How We Write Content for the Desktop User Guide
In-Reply-To: <1223407534.3452.491.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <78323d480810051629ga594600wb6919579c50a8f90@mail.gmail.com>
	<1223407534.3452.491.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0810080953y4f28d04ep8cb83e8b6a072f3@mail.gmail.com>

>> 2. 'kicker' is the whole of the main panel. "Fedora icon in the lower
>> left corner called the Kicker" is just wrong.
>
> I've never heard of any of that before.  Is there a canonical reference?

Kicker was the main panel in KDE 3.x - since KDE4 (ie F9 onwards) the
panel is called plasma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kicker_(KDE)



From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 17:09:57 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:09:57 +0000
Subject: A New Look at How We Write Content for the Desktop User Guide
In-Reply-To: <78323d480810080845s548c4172s4800ae55ccebae7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78323d480810080845s548c4172s4800ae55ccebae7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223485797.19629.46.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 21:15 +0530, Mani A wrote:
> > Agreed that there is a need for computer education for people without
> > experience using computers, but are we sure that Fedora wants to work on
> > that problem?
> Certainly it should. ..We want a bigger user-base.

That's not a very well-defined target for which to shoot, especially
with the limited resources of this team.  We should be concentrating on
the achievable first before we start substantially expanding the focus
of this team.

> > I think I'd rather see some common, upstream documentation that handles
> > that, such as from GNOME and KDE.  Then we can build from that as a
> > base.
> 
> Neither of them can possibly handle distro-specific features in a
> reasonable way.
> More directions will only mean faster adoption and a more stable user-base.

The good part is, they don't have to be distro-specific, at least in
Fedora's case.  This is one of the many nice side-effects of our
sticking with upstream -- their user docs apply directly to our
distribution.

> >> 1. New user does not learn about the name of the Add/Remove Software
> >> program. The first occurrence of "Add/Remove Software program" can be
> >> replaced by "Add/Remove Software program (called 'Pirut')".
> >
> > How do they not learn about it?  Sorry, I'm not getting the initial
> > point.
> 
> I think it is better if we tell the user about the underlying program
> at some point.

I think this is a common misconception of People Who Care like you and
me, who are vastly outnumbered by People Who Don't Care. :-)  The kind
of person who will read this documentation just wants to get the job
done and doesn't really care about strange names that have nothing to do
with the task.

> The main reason is that, users can resolve simple issues with the
> ability to launch a program from the CLI.

Point taken, but I'd call that a bug that we should be spending time
resolving, not a general use case.

> > In Fedora 9 and beyond, it is now PackageKit, and the main way to get it
> > is through the same '''Add/Remove Software''' launcher.  Because that is
> > setup to be a sort of alias or abstraction layer, I wonder if we want to
> > bother naming the application that currently runs underneath it?
> 
>  To call it "Add/Remove Programs" in a GUI is certainly 'being
> user-friendly'. In user guides at least, it is a good idea to speak
> about the underlying program.

See above.  All of the above is MHO.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From jaomatos at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 17:38:23 2008
From: jaomatos at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jos=E9_Matos?=)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 18:38:23 +0100
Subject: A New Look at How We Write Content for the Desktop User Guide
In-Reply-To: <d6e6dfeb0810080953y4f28d04ep8cb83e8b6a072f3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78323d480810051629ga594600wb6919579c50a8f90@mail.gmail.com>
	<1223407534.3452.491.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<d6e6dfeb0810080953y4f28d04ep8cb83e8b6a072f3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810081838.23740.jaomatos@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 08 October 2008 17:53:30 David Nalley wrote:
> Kicker was the main panel in KDE 3.x - since KDE4 (ie F9 onwards) the
> panel is called plasma
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kicker_(KDE)

Plasma is a lot more than just the panel. :-)

And I think with plasma the panel is just called panel. :-)

-- 
Jos? Ab?lio



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct  8 18:25:44 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:25:44 -0700
Subject: Docs do day - Thu. 9 Oct
Message-ID: <1223490344.3452.545.camel@calliope.phig.org>

Tomorrow, Paul and I plan to spend the day focused on doing stuff for
Docs.  For example:

* Converting Beats to XML
* Cleaning up the build chain for release-notes
** Including deciding which tools to use for what
* Branching in git
* Other fun

If you want to help or watch and learn, come on by #fedora-docs.  All
day, US West and East coast daylight hours mainly.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct  8 19:54:50 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:54:50 -0700
Subject: no meeting 2008-10-08
Message-ID: <1223495690.3452.550.camel@calliope.phig.org>

I got overcome by events and couldn't make the meeting time; looks like
similar happened to other people. :)

Lots of things coming together in the next few days, so we'll just not
worry about meeting and get back to doing.

-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct  8 20:00:12 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:00:12 -0700
Subject: fedora-wiki-list?
In-Reply-To: <1223468798.3457.38.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<20081008032120.GB32338@gmail.com>
	<1223468798.3457.38.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1223496012.3452.556.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 12:26 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:

> Is the a reason we don't want to claim this on f-docs-l once and for
> all?  I mean, it's not like our traffic here is overwhelming now.  We
> could simply say, "All wiki discussion --> f-docs-l," and ask people not
> to cross-post that material.

The example from Nigel was, "Do packagers and translators really want to
read about using prompts in example commands?"

I think the f-docs-l topic range is much wider than a wiki-specific
list.

I've kind-of felt the similar situation to what Nigel describes, not
knowing where to go _and_ invite people as a definitive wiki discussion
place that is not otherwise project specific.

The fact we use the wiki as a documentation writing tool is sort-of
coincidental.  Another project could write all their docs in the Trac
wiki, and if enough people cared, they might want a fedora-trac-list to
talk about how to use Trac more effectively, etc.

Part of this is that we have always made a separation of "requirements
when writing for Fedora Docs" and "how to use the wiki as an effective
writing tool".  I still think that is a good separation. :)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Wed Oct  8 20:16:16 2008
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:16:16 -0400
Subject: fedora-wiki-list?
In-Reply-To: <1223496012.3452.556.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1223428077.3452.512.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<20081008032120.GB32338@gmail.com>
	<1223468798.3457.38.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1223496012.3452.556.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0810081316s32f08410lc9627dd940b0803e@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 12:26 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>
>> Is the a reason we don't want to claim this on f-docs-l once and for
>> all?  I mean, it's not like our traffic here is overwhelming now.  We
>> could simply say, "All wiki discussion --> f-docs-l," and ask people not
>> to cross-post that material.
>
> The example from Nigel was, "Do packagers and translators really want to
> read about using prompts in example commands?"
>
> I think the f-docs-l topic range is much wider than a wiki-specific
> list.
>

I'll agree that wiki is at best a subset of the Docs Project. However
I think the f-d-l should be the definitive list for all things wiki
for the following reason:

By becoming the gardeners of the wiki we've essentially taken
'ownership' of , imo.

I am obviously biased because I don't like proliferation of lists but
that's my take on it.



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct  8 20:56:51 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:56:51 -0700
Subject: input on F10 virtualization release notes
In-Reply-To: <486886383.282141223398549554.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
References: <486886383.282141223398549554.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <1223499412.3452.561.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 09:55 -0700, Dale Bewley wrote:

> 
> I added a lot of content quickly yesterday, and the page structure
> is by no means solid, but there is a pending freeze[2] on October
> 10th. 

The actual freeze for wiki content is today.  The 10 Oct. deadline is
for when Docs have to get the converted-to-XML content ready for
translation.

Sorry about any confusion on the schedule, things such as the labeling
of tasks are a bit of a work in progress.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From dev at nigelj.com  Wed Oct  8 22:19:52 2008
From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 11:19:52 +1300
Subject: Fedora Elections Guide - ...---... (SOS)
In-Reply-To: <1223468930.3457.41.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1223436070.3242.418.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz>
	<1223468930.3457.41.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1223504392.20046.121.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz>

On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 12:28 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 16:21 +1300, Nigel Jones wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> > 
> > I just made a post to fedora-marketing-list inviting interested people
> > into helping write some fresh content for the Fedora Elections Guide, a
> > draft I did a few months back can be seen at
> > http://nigelj.fedorapeople.org/feg/ but it'll need a lot of updating
> > (that I don't have time for) with the new release I'm working on.
> > 
> > I'll be putting the Fedora branding on (so where it does GFDL, I'll
> > relicense it as OPL) and throw up the XML sometime soon.  But in the
> > mean time, anyone interested?
> > 
> > It'll be about a week before there is anything new to write about, but
> > it's a start.
> 
> Looked at it this morning -- great start, indeed.  Where can people grab
> the DocBook to send you patches?
Okay, so I thought I hadn't but I had, I've pushed my repo to: 

http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=electionsguide.git

(It was actually on FedoraPeople.org before, hmmm)
-- 
Nigel Jones <dev at nigelj.com>



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Wed Oct  8 23:05:03 2008
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 04:35:03 +0530
Subject: Beats - Need more time
Message-ID: <48ED3C9F.5060208@fedoraproject.org>

Hi,

For the beats, I am working on - Overview and desktop, I still need more 
time to be able to fill it up with important content. Desktop beat is 
mostly done but overview still hasn't been touched. I will be able to 
complete it within a day.

Rahul



From mhideo at redhat.com  Wed Oct  8 23:20:24 2008
From: mhideo at redhat.com (Michael Hideo-Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:20:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: #publican channel on irc.freenode
In-Reply-To: <1609388358.1722321223507864497.JavaMail.root@zmail01.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1047737163.1722601223508024034.JavaMail.root@zmail01.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>

Folks,

I am by no means an expert but if you are having problems using publican and docbook XML (either from scratch or if you are converting an existing document over) join me in #publican on freenode and i'll do my best to help out.

Cheers,
Mike



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 13:59:57 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 13:59:57 +0000
Subject: #publican channel on irc.freenode
In-Reply-To: <1047737163.1722601223508024034.JavaMail.root@zmail01.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <1047737163.1722601223508024034.JavaMail.root@zmail01.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1223560797.13014.19.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 19:20 -0400, Michael Hideo-Smith wrote:
> I am by no means an expert but if you are having problems using
> publican and docbook XML (either from scratch or if you are converting
> an existing document over) join me in #publican on freenode and i'll
> do my best to help out.

I can add you to the list of channel managers if you register your nick
with the Freenode nickserv.
http://www.wikihow.com/Register-a-User-Name-on-Freenode 

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Oct  9 15:06:00 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:06:00 -0700
Subject: Release notes tasks (Beta through GA)
Message-ID: <1223564760.4238.6.camel@calliope.phig.org>

https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/report/3

Jason Taylor (jmtaylor) has already accepted some of those tasks, which
I moved to his ownership.

I forgot to set the version (10) for the tickets; if you see a version
unset when you are modifying a ticket, please set the version.  (I set
10 as the default for new tickets, didn't think of that before. :)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 15:38:43 2008
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason Taylor)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 11:38:43 -0400
Subject: Beats - Need more time
In-Reply-To: <48ED3C9F.5060208@fedoraproject.org>
References: <48ED3C9F.5060208@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1223566723.3015.0.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 04:35 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> For the beats, I am working on - Overview and desktop, I still need more 
> time to be able to fill it up with important content. Desktop beat is 
> mostly done but overview still hasn't been touched. I will be able to 
> complete it within a day.
> 
> Rahul
> 

Rahul,

If you don't mind I can grab the information from the Beta and put it in
there?

-Jason
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Oct  9 16:24:08 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 09:24:08 -0700
Subject: Beats - Need more time
In-Reply-To: <1223566723.3015.0.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
References: <48ED3C9F.5060208@fedoraproject.org>
	<1223566723.3015.0.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1223569448.5964.20.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 11:38 -0400, Jason Taylor wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 04:35 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > For the beats, I am working on - Overview and desktop, I still need more 
> > time to be able to fill it up with important content. Desktop beat is 
> > mostly done but overview still hasn't been touched. I will be able to 
> > complete it within a day.
> > 
> > Rahul
> > 
> 
> Rahul,
> 
> If you don't mind I can grab the information from the Beta and put it in
> there?

Rahul, thanks for continuing to work on this, we'll have no problem
accepting your changes that arrive today.  We'll be test running the
conversion to XML several times today, but we have 30+ hours from now
until we need to get the POT file available for L10n.

Jason is grabbing the polished Beta relnotes content to put in places
such as the OverView, hope that helps.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Oct  9 18:59:39 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 11:59:39 -0700
Subject: [relnotes] docs beat format
In-Reply-To: <374786773.1058251220924971506.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <374786773.1058251220924971506.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1223578779.5964.29.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Mon, 2008-09-08 at 21:49 -0400, Jens Petersen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I was trying to clean up the docs beat hierarchy a little so that the the contents list looks right.
> 
> What should the default toplevel header be in a docs beat page?  I mean level 1 ("= Beat Title =") or level 2 ("== Beat Title ==")?  It looks to me like it should probably be "==" but some pages are using "=".
> 
> It would be nice to make it consistent to make it easy to browse the docs beats page and encourage more people to contribute.

BTW, now that I'm using the rendering tools, it does not matter on that
side of the conversion.

This is because MediaWiki makes the page name the default top level
header.

To make integration of page easier and the formatting more consistent, I
believe our standard is to have pages with == Foo == as the
highest-level nested header.

Does that make sense?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct 10 01:27:36 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 21:27:36 -0400
Subject: Updated repos for Docs
In-Reply-To: <6d4237680810091730r4b811ffbqc8dd92d1b836e8d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1223595192.26136.94.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6d4237680810091730r4b811ffbqc8dd92d1b836e8d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081010012736.GA2642@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 03:30:48AM +0300, Dimitris Glezos wrote:
> 2008/10/10 Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com>:
> > The following docs and branches now exist for Documentation:
> >
> > about-fedora: f8, f9, master
> > homepage: f8, f9, master   (may be deprecated)
> > readme: f8, f9, master
> > readme-burning-isos: f8, f9, master
> > readme-live-image: f8, f9, master
> > release-notes: f8, f9, master
> > install-guide: f8, f9, master
> 
> Cool. Which ones of these do we want added on Tx and stats?
> 
> If we aren't planning on publishing updates of the older docs, then
> maybe we shouldn't bother adding them at all. Relnotes' last stable
> version *does* get updated with new translations (the past months some
> people might have committed stuff to f9) and the updates get published
> on docs.fpo. Does this happen with `readme` too? If not, and commits
> there will never get published on f9, then we might as well just have
> just 'master' enabled.

I don't see a reason for any branch other than 'master' to be carried
in Transifex.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From noriko at redhat.com  Fri Oct 10 01:37:50 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:37:50 +1000
Subject: F10 Schedule Revised
In-Reply-To: <1223450832.3452.526.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <48E62D0B.4090603@redhat.com> <48EAD115.2000305@redhat.com>
	<1223450832.3452.526.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <48EEB1EE.3090003@redhat.com>

Karsten 'quaid' Wade ????????:
> On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 13:01 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
>> John Poelstra ????????:
>>> I have published updated schedules based on the great gobby editing 
>>> sessions we had this week with the Documentation and Translation teams. 
>>>  Note each schedule only shows the tasks for that specific team... we 
>>> can adjust this if that is confusing:
>>>
>>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-docs-tasks.html
>>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-trans-tasks.html
>> I can not see any deadline date for Installation Guide in trans-tasks.
>> I am assuming that will be 24-Nov from docs-tasks.
>> Could you please clarify this?
> 
> I think it is 27-Oct to 31-Oct for the Preview of the Installation
> Guide.  Then it looks like 21-Nov or 20-Nov for the final Installation
> Guide.  The Preview is a best-effort, we publish whatever is translated
> by 31-Oct.
> 
> You are correct that those are not explicit in either schedule.

By 21-Oct, translators are quite busy for Software translation.
More time can be spent for GA than PR.
Is any chance to translate IG under Launch phase?

> 
>> Can you also change wording for easy understanding?
>>    Current: "Release Notes PO Files completed by Translation."
>>    To be: "Release Notes Translation Deadline"
> 
> +1 Sounds better.
> 
>>    Current: "Translation Deadline for fedoraproject.org"
>>    To be: "fedoraproject.org (web) Translation Deadline"
>>
>> I think the following can be change to better expression.
>>    Current: "Translate xxxxx (POT to PO)"
>>    To be: "Drop xxxxx PO files (POT to PO)"
> 
> I think that task is, "Translate the strings in the POT file, making or
> updating the PO file for your language."  Is that what "drop" means?

Translatable PO files are not necessarily becoming available in order, 
but can be available soon as the authors finalize. Like docs team can 
drop the bombs of various documents for trans team. Each language team 
will schedule how to assign the resource to catch as many bombs as 
possible. Red Hat used to use the word 'drop' [1] internally so that I 
use here that is all.

As far as "Translate xxx" date is pointing the earliest PO files 
available date, that is fine.

[1] docs team finalize certain portion of his/her document by this date 
and make available to trans team.

noriko

> 
> - Karsten
> 



From asgeirf at redhat.com  Fri Oct 10 01:50:52 2008
From: asgeirf at redhat.com (Asgeir Frimannsson)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 21:50:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: L10n and Docs fallback
In-Reply-To: <657071.511223603010013.JavaMail.asgeirf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <32691340.531223603304455.JavaMail.asgeirf@localhost.localdomain>

Hi,

(Finally stealing some time again to work on this!)

----- "Paul W. Frields" <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
> We have several problems currently brewing with using hosted git
> repos
> of Publican-based documents with L10n's Transifex (Tx).
> 
> 1.  Publican uses multiple POT files instead of the single POT model.
>     Transifex apparently does not currently handle multiple POT files
>     well.

Transifex can handle multiple files well, as long as the translators submit file-by-file.

> 2.  The current (obsolete but soon to be replaced) Damned Lies (DL)
>     used in L10n doesn't respond well to multiple POT files either.

I think we have two options that are feasible (~1 day work) here:

1) Use publican-generated statistics pages

This involves running a script periodically generating statistics pages similar to these for each Publican project:
http://jfearn.fedorapeople.org/Test_Report/

This option requires us to use the 'trunk' version of publican for generating statistics, as the current version does not work well with current language codes.

2) Use a single PO file for translation and let DL handle statistics.

This is slightly more work, but not rocket-science: We continue to use the ./po/ directory and have a $lang.po file for each language and a $project.pot POT file.

We then need to add perhaps 3 additional targets to the Makefile:
'potmerge' - Merges all pot files in ./pot/$doc.pot to ./po/$project.pot
'poupdate' - msgmerge's all po files in ./po/$lang.po with ./po/$project.pot
'posplit' - copies translations from ./po/$lang.po to each of ./$lang/$doc.po
   
My make-knowledge is very limited, but it might be possible to hook these targets in to the existing targets even, so that when the 'single po mode' flag is active in the Makefile, we run these when e.g. 'make update-pot' is run etc...?

This option does not require any additional changes in publican upstream. Obviously this is a short-term and stupid solution, as we don't want translators to have to manage massive PO files, but it just might work until we get a more intelligent translation system to handle these.

> 3.  There may also be some issues in Tx about support for the ISO
>     language codes used in Publican.

Jeff has been helpful and we've confirmed that Publican works with the existing language codes. 


cheers,
asgeir



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct 10 01:56:15 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 21:56:15 -0400
Subject: Docs do day - Thu. 9 Oct
In-Reply-To: <1223490344.3452.545.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1223490344.3452.545.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1223603775.3729.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 11:25 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> Tomorrow, Paul and I plan to spend the day focused on doing stuff for
> Docs.  For example:
> 
> * Converting Beats to XML
> * Cleaning up the build chain for release-notes
> ** Including deciding which tools to use for what
> * Branching in git
> * Other fun

My day went horribly awry, but I did get the rest of the hosted repos
set up, and I have a fedora-doc-utils repo landing soon.  I'm going to
try and get a bit of work done at the airport and on the plane tomorrow
as a result.  (Yay git!)

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From dimitris at glezos.com  Fri Oct 10 22:57:58 2008
From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 01:57:58 +0300
Subject: Updated repos for Docs
In-Reply-To: <20081010012736.GA2642@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1223595192.26136.94.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<6d4237680810091730r4b811ffbqc8dd92d1b836e8d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081010012736.GA2642@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <6d4237680810101557i2594dcc7ja50edea3b5e95c08@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/10 Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com>:
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 03:30:48AM +0300, Dimitris Glezos wrote:
>> 2008/10/10 Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com>:
>> > The following docs and branches now exist for Documentation:
>> >
>> > about-fedora: f8, f9, master
>> > homepage: f8, f9, master   (may be deprecated)
>> > readme: f8, f9, master
>> > readme-burning-isos: f8, f9, master
>> > readme-live-image: f8, f9, master
>> > release-notes: f8, f9, master
>> > install-guide: f8, f9, master
>>
>> Cool. Which ones of these do we want added on Tx and stats?
>>
>> If we aren't planning on publishing updates of the older docs, then
>> maybe we shouldn't bother adding them at all. Relnotes' last stable
>> version *does* get updated with new translations (the past months some
>> people might have committed stuff to f9) and the updates get published
>> on docs.fpo. Does this happen with `readme` too? If not, and commits
>> there will never get published on f9, then we might as well just have
>> just 'master' enabled.
>
> I don't see a reason for any branch other than 'master' to be carried
> in Transifex.

All docs exist in Transifex with the 'master' branch.

-?



-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/

"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--



From kwade at redhat.com  Sat Oct 11 16:10:54 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:10:54 -0700
Subject: update - release-notes module late
Message-ID: <1223741454.28571.22.camel@calliope.phig.org>

Folks:

We are currently a day late with the POT file for the release notes.  My
current projection is 0700 UTC 12 October, or one day (31 hours), late.

A combination of late content changes and rewriting is the cause.

However, every string will be touched and edited, reducing the need to
change the strings after the Preview Release.

Reminder:

        * This Preview Release translation has a deadline of 21 October.
        
        * At that time we will package every translation, even partially
        completed ones.
        
        * You may continue to translate the module after 21 October
        
        * We will do an update of the module and generate the final (GA)
        release notes module on 06 November.
        
        * At that time, only translations that are mostly complete will
        be included in the release-notes package build.  The percentage
        complete needed has not been decided yet.
        
        * You may continue to translate the module after 06 November.
        
        * A new POT file is generated on the day of the Fedora 10
        release, and translations are updated on
        docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes when each PO files is
        completed.

Any questions?  Please ask them all!

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From poelstra at redhat.com  Sun Oct 12 23:09:42 2008
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:09:42 -0700
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
Message-ID: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>

I've parsed the most recent emails as best as I could and pushed new 
schedules, but I know parts are still wrong.  In particular:

1) What to do with Installation Guide dates and tasks
2) Description of "0-day tasks"

I don't think continuing to do this over email is going to be productive 
so I'm wondering when we can all meet on gobby again?  Or if telephone 
works I'd be glad to set up an international phone conference? Or let me 
know when your next IRC meetings are and I can try to attend?

Those are all the options I can think of :)

Thanks,
John



From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Oct 13 21:20:56 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:20:56 +0000
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
In-Reply-To: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2008-10-12 at 16:09 -0700, John Poelstra wrote:
> I've parsed the most recent emails as best as I could and pushed new 
> schedules, but I know parts are still wrong.  In particular:
> 
> 1) What to do with Installation Guide dates and tasks
> 2) Description of "0-day tasks"
> 
> I don't think continuing to do this over email is going to be productive 
> so I'm wondering when we can all meet on gobby again?  Or if telephone 
> works I'd be glad to set up an international phone conference? Or let me 
> know when your next IRC meetings are and I can try to attend?
> 
> Those are all the options I can think of :)

This sounds like a great idea to me.  I think Gobby and IRC would work
fine (even just using the chat in Gobby for that matter).  The phone can
be confusing with more than a couple people involved, when there's no
agenda to follow.  (At least, that's how I interpreted our marginal
success in a phone conversation between you, me, and Karsten working on
the Docs schedule.)  In a brainstorming session like the ones Gobby
encourages, that would be chaotic, so I vote -1 phone.  But +2 for other
collaboration, yee-ha!

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Oct 14 15:08:30 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:08:30 -0700
Subject: update - release-notes module late
In-Reply-To: <1223741454.28571.22.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1223741454.28571.22.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1223996910.28571.79.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Sat, 2008-10-11 at 09:10 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> Folks:
> 
> We are currently a day late with the POT file for the release notes.  My
> current projection is 0700 UTC 12 October, or one day (31 hours), late.

... and even later.

Because of resource shortages in Docs[1], I have been working solo on
the release notes.  Sadly, they are still not completed.  I have hopes
that the POT file will be available later today.  I will send a status
report to these lists as I progress.

- Karsten


[1] Plenty of new and passionate people working on Docs, but not enough
currently with the combination of time, writing, editing, and convert to
DocBook skills.
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu  Tue Oct 14 20:39:29 2008
From: dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu (Dale Bewley)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:39:29 -0700
Subject: update - release-notes module late
In-Reply-To: <1223996910.28571.79.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1223741454.28571.22.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1223996910.28571.79.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1224016769.18859.19.camel@tofu.lib.ucdavis.edu>

On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 08:08 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> Because of resource shortages in Docs[1], I have been working solo on
> the release notes.  Sadly, they are still not completed.  I have hopes
> that the POT file will be available later today.  I will send a status
> report to these lists as I progress.

You shouldn't have to do this on your own.

I can probably find some time tonight to do some wiki editing if there
are specific lacking beats. I know next to nothing of docbook, so I
wouldn't be helpful there right now.

I'll look for the "open" beats on
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats
and see what I can do tonight.
-- 
Dale Bewley - Unix Administrator - Shields Library - UC Davis
GPG: 0xB098A0F3 0D5A 9AEB 43F4 F84C 7EFD  1753 064D 2583 B098 A0F3



From jgmitchell at gmail.com  Tue Oct 14 21:00:22 2008
From: jgmitchell at gmail.com (Justin G. Mitchell)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:00:22 -0500
Subject: Self-introduction
Message-ID: <abb62b60810141400maba68ened509d692d25e0e9@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello all!

My name is Justin Mitchell and I'm interested in helping with the
Fedora Docs project. I made the permanent switch back to Fedora and
open source software at the begin of this year after having Vista eat
my computer and using a variety of open source tools to recover data
and do my job that closed source tools couldn't do. By day I'm a
security engineer, using Fedora in a Windows environment and just had
to have tools that are reliable. I admit I still use XP running in
VMware, but that is more for Visio than anything else.

This is the first time I have ever joined an open source project in
any way at all. Usually, I'd just download my software, use it and not
give back. I figure it's time to change things and start contributing
to a product I love and recommend to others.

Justin



What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past?
This is my first project I have contributed to officially. I have
created documentation for end-users at my job as a systems
administrator.


What level and type of computer skills do you have?
I'm pretty much a power user (or at least like to think of myself as
one). I run fedora 9 as my primary desktop and use it to manage a
Windows-based server enivronment and Cisco equipment. I have my MCSA
Messenging 2003 and my CCSP. I love new challenges and sharing my
knowledge with others.


What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface
design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc.
I have a lot of experience supporting end-users and explaining things
in a way that makes it easy for non-technical people to understand.

I've studied graphic design, and have experience with most professional tools.


What makes you an excellent match for the project?
At this point I have been using open source software on and off since
Red Hat 5 and am eager to start giving back to the community that has
created such a wonderful product and help others just starting out
with it.



pub   1024D/3C989C7A 2008-05-29
     Key fingerprint = 743B 1E97 BDBF 4912 897B  8AD9 C101 316F 3C98 9C7A
uid                  Justin Grahm Mitchell
uid                  [jpeg image of size 3621]
sub   2048g/2B5B0D69 2008-05-29

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: http://getfiregpg.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkj1CGUACgkQwQExbzyYnHrq7QCdHvF1QWP7o2dRIsqirJ8lFpEf
omsAnROL3CvA9Rjg1gyK8MJcJKlLYPTc
=qNtT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From noriko at redhat.com  Wed Oct 15 00:03:05 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:03:05 +1000
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
In-Reply-To: <1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>
	<1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <48F53339.8040300@redhat.com>

Paul W. Frields ????????:
> On Sun, 2008-10-12 at 16:09 -0700, John Poelstra wrote:
>> I've parsed the most recent emails as best as I could and pushed new 
>> schedules, but I know parts are still wrong.  In particular:
>>
>> 1) What to do with Installation Guide dates and tasks
>> 2) Description of "0-day tasks"
>>
>> I don't think continuing to do this over email is going to be productive 
>> so I'm wondering when we can all meet on gobby again?  Or if telephone 
>> works I'd be glad to set up an international phone conference? Or let me 
>> know when your next IRC meetings are and I can try to attend?
>>
>> Those are all the options I can think of :)
> 
> This sounds like a great idea to me.  I think Gobby and IRC would work
> fine (even just using the chat in Gobby for that matter).  The phone can
> be confusing with more than a couple people involved, when there's no
> agenda to follow.  (At least, that's how I interpreted our marginal
> success in a phone conversation between you, me, and Karsten working on
> the Docs schedule.)  In a brainstorming session like the ones Gobby
> encourages, that would be chaotic, so I vote -1 phone.  But +2 for other
> collaboration, yee-ha!

It might be too late to respond, but I am familiar with IRC, so +1 for IRC.
Thank you for bringing this up.

noriko
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --
> Fedora-trans-list mailing list
> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list



From dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu  Wed Oct 15 01:18:02 2008
From: dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu (Dale Bewley)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:18:02 -0700
Subject: release notes life cycle
Message-ID: <1224033482.3477.27.camel@seitan.home.bewley.net>

When looking at the Beat content, it's somewhat confusing and cumbersome
to determine what is complete for the pending release and what isn't.

For example, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/PackageNotes is
not assigned to anyone, but some work has been done since F9. It's easy
for one to assume at first glance that this page is up to date. However,
most of the content is still F9 content.

http://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Docs%2FBeats%
2FPackageNotes&diff=53835&oldid=12111

It might be nice if Beats were reset to empty before beginning work on
the next version release notes.

I may do that as the first step when I begin looking for slots I can
hopefully fill in F10. The criteria I would use for finding F9 content
would be edits made around May 2008 and earlier.

At some point this all migrates to docbook on docs.fp.o, after that is
set in "stone", what has been the practice in the past? What is the time
horizon when updates to previous release notes on the wiki becomes less
productive than work on the next release? 

I would think at that point the Beats should be lobotomized and a call
for Beat authors for the next release made. It should happen early
enough that authors don't have to dig through the entire development
cycle of bugs and email for clues, and can hopefully document changes
during development. One month after GA? At Alpha release?

During the period where Beat pages are empty, with the help of a
template, perhaps the wayward user could follow a link at the top of the
page to the current docs.fp.o page.

Thoughts?
--
Dale



From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 15 03:06:46 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:06:46 +0000
Subject: Fallback details
Message-ID: <1224040006.531.11.camel@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>

In the event we have to fall back for the toolchain, I checked the usage
tonight.  For example, this works for the Installation Guide:

$ git clone git://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/install-guide.git
$ git clone git://git.fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-doc-utils.git docs-common
$ cd install-guide
$ make html-en_US     # for example

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 15 04:00:11 2008
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason Taylor)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:00:11 -0400
Subject: release notes life cycle
In-Reply-To: <1224033482.3477.27.camel@seitan.home.bewley.net>
References: <1224033482.3477.27.camel@seitan.home.bewley.net>
Message-ID: <1224043211.2929.23.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 18:18 -0700, Dale Bewley wrote:
> When looking at the Beat content, it's somewhat confusing and cumbersome
> to determine what is complete for the pending release and what isn't.
> 
> For example, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/PackageNotes is
> not assigned to anyone, but some work has been done since F9. It's easy
> for one to assume at first glance that this page is up to date. However,
> most of the content is still F9 content.
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Docs%2FBeats%
> 2FPackageNotes&diff=53835&oldid=12111
> 
> It might be nice if Beats were reset to empty before beginning work on
> the next version release notes.
> 
> I may do that as the first step when I begin looking for slots I can
> hopefully fill in F10. The criteria I would use for finding F9 content
> would be edits made around May 2008 and earlier.
> 
> At some point this all migrates to docbook on docs.fp.o, after that is
> set in "stone", what has been the practice in the past? What is the time
> horizon when updates to previous release notes on the wiki becomes less
> productive than work on the next release? 
> 
> I would think at that point the Beats should be lobotomized and a call
> for Beat authors for the next release made. It should happen early
> enough that authors don't have to dig through the entire development
> cycle of bugs and email for clues, and can hopefully document changes
> during development. One month after GA? At Alpha release?
> 
> During the period where Beat pages are empty, with the help of a
> template, perhaps the wayward user could follow a link at the top of the
> page to the current docs.fp.o page.
> 
> Thoughts?
> --
> Dale

A couple of thoughts, since you brought up changes... :) After the F10
freeze/release, I planned on garnering support for doing a
vetting/reorganization of the structure and content of the notes. We
have beats for seemingly random packages (samba comes to mind).We also
seem to have a general lack of beat writers (this is based on feedback
or lack of that I got from an email sent to all beat writers and/or
technical contacts).  

There was some discussion earlier (I can't find the thread atm) about
reorganizing the structure to a more function oriented structure
(network admins, desktop users, developers). I think this is the way to
go. In my mind this gives us a target to base our writing around.
Instead of trying to find information on an existing beat that may or
may not have information we find out what the features of the release
are and what the defined audiences will find relevant. I realize
defining relevancy may take some work and discussion...

Some of the existing beats should be removed/deprecated from the list as
they are no longer relevant. Perhaps once we look at how we want to
organize/re-organize the notes it will be easier to determine what beats
we want? PackageNotes mentioned above was a catchall. I would like to
remove these ambiguities which should be possible with some
reorganization. I am wondering/hoping that getting writers will be
easier as the workflow can be more defined? Thoughts...?

The reason I mentioned this in reply to Dale, is that if we can get a
fix on what we want to do as a Project with regards to the release notes
we can get it implemented faster.

-Jason
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From kam at kamsalisbury.com  Wed Oct 15 11:39:38 2008
From: kam at kamsalisbury.com (Kam)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 04:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: release notes life cycle
Message-ID: <48f5d67a.271d640a.2d0e.ffff87d8@mx.google.com>

Jason, I would like to help but (being new to the Fedora docs process) I am unsure what to do or how to go about it. A pointer to a summarized guide would be helpful.

--
Kam
http://kamsalisbury.com
GPG key: FAF1751E

-----Original Message-----

From:  Jason Taylor <jmtaylor90 at gmail.com>
Subj:  Re: release notes life cycle
Date:  Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:00 am
Size:  3K
To:  For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list at redhat.com>

On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 18:18 -0700, Dale Bewley wrote:
> When looking at the Beat content, it's somewhat confusing and cumbersome
> to determine what is complete for the pending release and what isn't.
> 
> For example, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/PackageNotes is
> not assigned to anyone, but some work has been done since F9. It's easy
> for one to assume at first glance that this page is up to date. However,
> most of the content is still F9 content.
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Docs%2FBeats%
> 2FPackageNotes&diff=53835&oldid=12111
> 
> It might be nice if Beats were reset to empty before beginning work on
> the next version release notes.
> 
> I may do that as the first step when I begin looking for slots I can
> hopefully fill in F10. The criteria I would use for finding F9 content
> would be edits made around May 2008 and earlier.
> 
> At some point this all migrates to docbook on docs.fp.o, after that is
> set in "stone", what has been the practice in the past? What is the time
> horizon when updates to previous release notes on the wiki becomes less
> productive than work on the next release? 
> 
> I would think at that point the Beats should be lobotomized and a call
> for Beat authors for the next release made. It should happen early
> enough that authors don't have to dig through the entire development
> cycle of bugs and email for clues, and can hopefully document changes
> during development. One month after GA? At Alpha release?
> 
> During the period where Beat pages are empty, with the help of a
> template, perhaps the wayward user could follow a link at the top of the
> page to the current docs.fp.o page.
> 
> Thoughts?
> --
> Dale

A couple of thoughts, since you brought up changes... :) After the F10
freeze/release, I planned on garnering support for doing a
vetting/reorganization of the structure and content of the notes. We
have beats for seemingly random packages (samba comes to mind).We also
seem to have a general lack of beat writers (this is based on feedback
or lack of that I got from an email sent to all beat writers and/or
technical contacts).  

There was some discussion earlier (I can't find the thread atm) about
reorganizing the structure to a more function oriented structure
(network admins, desktop users, developers). I think this is the way to
go. In my mind this gives us a target to base our writing around.
Instead of trying to find information on an existing beat that may or
may not have information we find out what the features of the release
are and what the defined audiences will find relevant. I realize
defining relevancy may take some work and discussion...

Some of the existing beats should be removed/deprecated from the list as
they are no longer relevant. Perhaps once we look at how we want to
organize/re-organize the notes it will be easier to determine what beats
we want? PackageNotes mentioned above was a catchall. I would like to
remove these ambiguities which should be possible with some
reorganization. I am wondering/hoping that getting writers will be
easier as the workflow can be more defined? Thoughts...?

The reason I mentioned this in reply to Dale, is that if we can get a
fix on what we want to do as a Project with regards to the release notes
we can get it implemented faster.

-Jason



--- attachment signature.asc ---

--- message truncated ---




From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 15 17:38:44 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:38:44 -0700
Subject: short meeting 1900 UTC today
Message-ID: <1224092324.28571.181.camel@calliope.phig.org>


-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 15 19:53:56 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:53:56 -0700
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
In-Reply-To: <48F53339.8040300@redhat.com>
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>
	<1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<48F53339.8040300@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1224100436.28571.199.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 10:03 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:

> It might be too late to respond, but I am familiar with IRC, so +1 for IRC.
> Thank you for bringing this up.

+1 to IRC.

We also need to use Gobby for shared, real-time document editing.

Where Gobby doesn't work for someone, we can do regular (~5 minute)
saves to a wiki page, and take input via IRC.

Considering the folks involved ... 

UTC +2
UTC +10
UTC -7

When is a good time?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 15 19:56:22 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:56:22 -0700
Subject: update - release-notes module late
In-Reply-To: <1224016769.18859.19.camel@tofu.lib.ucdavis.edu>
References: <1223741454.28571.22.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1223996910.28571.79.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224016769.18859.19.camel@tofu.lib.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <1224100582.28571.202.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 13:39 -0700, Dale Bewley wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 08:08 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> > Because of resource shortages in Docs[1], I have been working solo on
> > the release notes.  Sadly, they are still not completed.  I have hopes
> > that the POT file will be available later today.  I will send a status
> > report to these lists as I progress.
> 
> You shouldn't have to do this on your own.
> 
> I can probably find some time tonight to do some wiki editing if there
> are specific lacking beats. I know next to nothing of docbook, so I
> wouldn't be helpful there right now.
> 
> I'll look for the "open" beats on
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats
> and see what I can do tonight.

Thanks, I merged in your changes.
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 15 19:58:14 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:58:14 -0700
Subject: update - release-notes module late
In-Reply-To: <1223996910.28571.79.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1223741454.28571.22.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1223996910.28571.79.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1224100694.28571.205.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 08:08 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-10-11 at 09:10 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> > Folks:
> > 
> > We are currently a day late with the POT file for the release notes.  My
> > current projection is 0700 UTC 12 October, or one day (31 hours), late.
> 
> ... and even later.

In retrospect, 2 days on the schedule for this task was obviously not
enough.  More like 7 days.

The main good news is that there is plenty of time to get translations
done for the final F10 release.  I am cutting in to the time to get l10n
for the Preview Release, and for that I am sorry.

In the work, I am beyond 70% complete and going fast.  I mat be able to
get a stable build later this afternoon.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Wed Oct 15 20:33:37 2008
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 02:03:37 +0530
Subject: release notes life cycle
In-Reply-To: <1224033482.3477.27.camel@seitan.home.bewley.net>
References: <1224033482.3477.27.camel@seitan.home.bewley.net>
Message-ID: <48F653A1.3070907@fedoraproject.org>

Dale Bewley wrote:
> When looking at the Beat content, it's somewhat confusing and cumbersome
> to determine what is complete for the pending release and what isn't.
> 
> For example, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/PackageNotes is
> not assigned to anyone, but some work has been done since F9. It's easy
> for one to assume at first glance that this page is up to date. However,
> most of the content is still F9 content.
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Docs%2FBeats%
> 2FPackageNotes&diff=53835&oldid=12111
> 
> It might be nice if Beats were reset to empty before beginning work on
> the next version release notes.

Some of the content, we typically carry over. These should be minimal 
but still exists.

Rahul



From dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu  Wed Oct 15 21:32:16 2008
From: dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu (Dale Bewley)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:32:16 -0700
Subject: release notes life cycle
In-Reply-To: <48F653A1.3070907@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1224033482.3477.27.camel@seitan.home.bewley.net>
	<48F653A1.3070907@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1224106336.18859.39.camel@tofu.lib.ucdavis.edu>


On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 02:03 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Dale Bewley wrote:
> > It might be nice if Beats were reset to empty before beginning work
> > on the next version release notes.
> 
> Some of the content, we typically carry over. These should be minimal 
> but still exists.

I'm imagining content such as a link toward how to build a custom kernel
perhaps. I understand the release notes should detail caveats and tout
new features, but also provide basic documentation stubs which carry
over between releases.

My idea is just that on a scheduled flag day the release notes have all
previous release-specific content extricated so it's more obvious what
needs to be done for the pending release. Identifying the
release-neutral content first would be helpful of course.

I suppose that content could be flagged with HTML comments in the Wiki
source perhaps, or just careful consideration during the content
"reset". Maybe even a template or skel per section after the
restructuring Jason proposed.

-- 
Dale Bewley - Unix Administrator - Shields Library - UC Davis
GPG: 0xB098A0F3 0D5A 9AEB 43F4 F84C 7EFD  1753 064D 2583 B098 A0F3



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Oct 16 13:50:40 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:50:40 -0400
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
In-Reply-To: <1224100436.28571.199.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>
	<1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<48F53339.8040300@redhat.com>
	<1224100436.28571.199.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1224165041.19681.45.camel@victoria-eth>

On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 12:53 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 10:03 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> 
> > It might be too late to respond, but I am familiar with IRC, so +1 for IRC.
> > Thank you for bringing this up.
> 
> +1 to IRC.
> 
> We also need to use Gobby for shared, real-time document editing.
> 
> Where Gobby doesn't work for someone, we can do regular (~5 minute)
> saves to a wiki page, and take input via IRC.
> 
> Considering the folks involved ... 
> 
> UTC +2
> UTC +10
> UTC -7
> 
> When is a good time?

Someone's going to get shafted on the timezone, no question.  I can do a
night meeting but it means Central Europe is asleep.  I can do a morning
but then Karsten will be asleep.  And in between, Brisbane is asleep!
Wow, this is making me sleepy too....

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Thu Oct 16 14:24:21 2008
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:24:21 -0400
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com><1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain><48F53339.8040300@redhat.com><1224100436.28571.199.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224165041.19681.45.camel@victoria-eth>
Message-ID: <16EB69285FD645A5997581F8824DBB41@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul W. Frields" <stickster at gmail.com>
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 
<fedora-docs-list at redhat.com>
Cc: "Fedora Translation Project List" <fedora-trans-list at redhat.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: joint schedule meeting?

> Someone's going to get shafted on the timezone, no question.

Back in the day, I worked on a project where no two participants were on the 
same continent.  It generally seems to work out best if the guy with the 
most Hay points is the one who gets shafted. (That typically turned out to 
be me.)  If you have a preponderance of folks in one place, you typically 
want to favor them, but to maintain the team's morale, it does help if the 
larger group suffers at least a little.

--McD




From jrochelly at gmail.com  Fri Oct 17 03:28:25 2008
From: jrochelly at gmail.com (Jakson Rochelly)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:28:25 -0300
Subject: Self-Introduction - Jakson Rochelly
Message-ID: <7bbe9f310810162028w5c575775s3a99ac3588bd68c5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi! My name is Jakson Rochelly, I'm from Floriano-PI - Brazil.
I have worked with Ubuntu in Documentation and Translation Team.
I think my computer skill is in intermediary, I want to learn programming in
HTML and another languages.
I know a little of desing, work with Inkscape....

[jrochelly at localhost ~]$ gpg --fingerprint AE019884
pub   1024D/CEAB4C3E 2008-10-17
      Key fingerprint = 70C6 F2B8 518A 19A6 6561  3F51 5305 D911 CEAB 4C3E
uid                  Jakson Rochelly <jrochelly at gmail.com>
sub   1024g/AE019884 2008-10-17*
*
With Linux I've learned how to share, that the freedom is great, I wanna
help and share my knowledge with everyone.

-- 
Empty vessels make the most sound.
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From kwade at redhat.com  Fri Oct 17 03:35:35 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:35:35 -0700
Subject: lead writer - you?
Message-ID: <1224214535.28571.279.camel@calliope.phig.org>

We could use someone to take full responsibility for the start to
publish for each of these guides, ongoing for now and possibly future
releases:

* Release Notes
* Installation Guide
* Packaging Guide
* User Guide

Interested?  Want to hear more?

There are a few more out there (Virtualization Guide, RPM Guide) that
could be picked up as well.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_content_tasks_for_experienced_contributors

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From noriko at redhat.com  Fri Oct 17 04:47:40 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:47:40 +1000
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
In-Reply-To: <1224165041.19681.45.camel@victoria-eth>
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>	<1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<48F53339.8040300@redhat.com>	<1224100436.28571.199.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224165041.19681.45.camel@victoria-eth>
Message-ID: <48F818EC.6060300@redhat.com>

Paul W. Frields ????????:
> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 12:53 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
>> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 10:03 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
>>
>>> It might be too late to respond, but I am familiar with IRC, so +1 for IRC.
>>> Thank you for bringing this up.
>> +1 to IRC.
>>
>> We also need to use Gobby for shared, real-time document editing.
>>
>> Where Gobby doesn't work for someone, we can do regular (~5 minute)
>> saves to a wiki page, and take input via IRC.
>>
>> Considering the folks involved ... 
>>
>> UTC +2
>> UTC +10
>> UTC -7
>>
>> When is a good time?
> 
> Someone's going to get shafted on the timezone, no question.  I can do a
> night meeting but it means Central Europe is asleep.  I can do a morning
> but then Karsten will be asleep.  And in between, Brisbane is asleep!
> Wow, this is making me sleepy too....

Where is India time?

> 
> 



From kam at kamsalisbury.com  Fri Oct 17 16:33:00 2008
From: kam at kamsalisbury.com (Kam)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:33:00 -0400
Subject: lead writer - you?
Message-ID: <48f8be6d.1436640a.0e83.455a@mx.google.com>

Quiad, I am interested in the release notes.

--
Kam
http://kamsalisbury.com
GPG key: FAF1751E

-----Original Message-----

From:  "Karsten 'quaid' Wade" <kwade at redhat.com>
Subj:  lead writer - you?
Date:  Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:35 pm
Size:  655 bytes
To:  Fedora Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list at redhat.com>

We could use someone to take full responsibility for the start to
publish for each of these guides, ongoing for now and possibly future
releases:

* Release Notes
* Installation Guide
* Packaging Guide
* User Guide

Interested?  Want to hear more?

There are a few more out there (Virtualization Guide, RPM Guide) that
could be picked up as well.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_content_tasks_for_experienced_contributors

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41



--- attachment signature.asc ---

--- attachment noname 2.txt ---




From valent.turkovic at gmail.com  Fri Oct 17 17:37:43 2008
From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 19:37:43 +0200
Subject: Much more emphasis on Fedora users needed in wiki
Message-ID: <64b14b300810171037t4c1b79d8hff46c6423cbf96eb@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I have looked and didn't find previous mentions of this issue, if there was
discussion on this topic please point me in the right direction.

I looked, and looked and couldn't find info about specific topics for Fedora
on Fedorproject wiki pages. For example howto setup bluetooth and gps on
Fedora, or how to setup wireless from command line on Fedora etc...

Are there some wiki pages for users? As I see it the Fedora wiki is made for
Fedora project and not for Fedora users :(

I just love how Gentoo community has make their wiki pages a trully
excellent source for their users - just look at their blueetooth howto [2]
and wireless howto [3] pages

I have looked at fedora drafts [3] and I see some promising docs there but
I'm not aware of wiki pages that are made for users so that they can use
them for.

I found some online discussion about this already [4]. Atleast link to these
pages from main Fedora wiki page.

If it is possible please make an effort to edit the main wiki page and make
Fedora guides and howto wiki pages, look through some of drafts posted
allready and just ask Fedora community to add their new stuff there.

I personally posted howto few months ago and it still sits in drafts :( And
to me it looks like nobody of "authority" even looks at those pages and that
really demotivates me to make new howtos and contribute to Fedora
documentation

Just look at all the great howtos and guides on Fedora forum [5], but people
need to know abou it, and it is a shame that these great information is not
served from Fedora project pages because people probably expect it there and
not on some random forum :(

Cheers,
Valent.

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/bluetooth-guide.xml
[2] http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Wireless_Configuration_and_Startup
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts
[4] http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=197329
[5] http://forums.fedoraforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=12


-- 
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic
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From kwade at redhat.com  Fri Oct 17 17:47:04 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:47:04 -0700
Subject: update - release-notes module late
In-Reply-To: <1224100694.28571.205.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1223741454.28571.22.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1223996910.28571.79.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224100694.28571.205.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1224265624.28571.284.camel@calliope.phig.org>

All the XML conversion has been done; the book structure has been
defined.  Now is debugging the work done and making it build so it can
produce a real POT file.

If anyone can pick up on this, please do.  I need to be AFK for today
but will be back at work tonight.

Thanks everyone for your patience.  I know this destroyed our schedule
for Preview release notes translation.

However, you did *not* want to be translating the mess that was there
before I did the clean-up.

Because of changes in the wiki notification system and our team not
responding correctly, our clean up of the Docs/Beats/ area was not done
the way it usually is.

With unclean language/writing, there were going to be a lot of mistakes
that would have been hard to translate.  Hopefully I fixed most of them,
and am ready to answer or fix anything else that comes up.

- Karsten

On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 12:58 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 08:08 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-10-11 at 09:10 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> > > Folks:
> > > 
> > > We are currently a day late with the POT file for the release notes.  My
> > > current projection is 0700 UTC 12 October, or one day (31 hours), late.
> > 
> > ... and even later.
> 
> In retrospect, 2 days on the schedule for this task was obviously not
> enough.  More like 7 days.
> 
> The main good news is that there is plenty of time to get translations
> done for the final F10 release.  I am cutting in to the time to get l10n
> for the Preview Release, and for that I am sorry.
> 
> In the work, I am beyond 70% complete and going fast.  I mat be able to
> get a stable build later this afternoon.
> 
> - Karsten
> -- 
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: 
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Fri Oct 17 18:09:51 2008
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:09:51 -0400
Subject: lead writer - you?
In-Reply-To: <1224214535.28571.279.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1224214535.28571.279.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0810171109w7534d74bt987f4bc88962e9cc@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:35 PM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:
> We could use someone to take full responsibility for the start to
> publish for each of these guides, ongoing for now and possibly future
> releases:
>
> * Release Notes
> * Installation Guide
> * Packaging Guide
> * User Guide
>
> Interested?  Want to hear more?
>


So the pieces I see as missing from this posting are:

What are the responsibilities of a lead writer (hopefully a more
verbose explanation than 'everything')
What are the qualifications for a lead writer?
What is the typical time investment for a lead writer?
What tools are used and which of those need to be known ahead of time?



From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Fri Oct 17 22:54:03 2008
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 04:24:03 +0530
Subject: Subject: lead writer - you?
Message-ID: <78323d480810171554u54de305ftee900bba2800ed0f@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Karsten 'quaid' Wade"  wrote:
> We could use someone to take full responsibility for the start to
> publish for each of these guides, ongoing for now and possibly future
> releases:
>
> * Release Notes
> * Installation Guide
> * Packaging Guide
> * User Guide
>
> Interested?  Want to hear more?

I am interested in taking responsibility for the RPM (Chapters1--12)
or the Installation Guide or the User Guide. But what exactly would the
responsibilities be?

In the RPM Guide, I would like to
1. update information
2. reduce verbosity in some sections
3. Add a few tables/ cheat sheets
4. Improve the format and
5. *


Best

A. Mani



-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc


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From berrange at redhat.com  Fri Oct 10 09:45:03 2008
From: berrange at redhat.com (Daniel P. Berrange)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:45:03 +0100
Subject: [libvirt] Re: [Fedora-xen] input on F10 virtualization release
	notes
In-Reply-To: <20081008151103.GY9714@edu.joroinen.fi>
References: <2131900444.281591223398293181.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
	<486886383.282141223398549554.JavaMail.root@zebra.lib.ucdavis.edu>
	<20081008151103.GY9714@edu.joroinen.fi>
Message-ID: <20081010094503.GA12910@redhat.com>

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 06:11:03PM +0300, Pasi K?rkk?inen wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 09:55:49AM -0700, Dale Bewley wrote:
> > I've been working on the virtualization release notes[1] for Fedora 10
> > these past several days, and I'm looking for input from those in the
> > know. The advances coming out of the Emerging Technologies projects and
> > Fedora in general are very impressive, and I'd like to do them justice.
> >
> 
> Very good summary of changes.
> 
> I'm sure there will be a lot questions about (missing) dom0 support, so
> maybe add even more information about it.
> 
> Xensource plans to have pv_ops dom0 support ready for Xen 3.4, so maybe add
> that information. http://www.xen.org/download/roadmap.html
> 
> I think (at least earlier) the plan was to submit pv_ops dom0 patches for
> inclusion in Linux kernel 2.6.28. I'm not sure if that is still the plan. 

That's premature for Fedora 10 release notes. It'll be shipping Xen 3.3
and 2.6.27. Should be good for Fedora 11 though

Daniel
-- 
|: Red Hat, Engineering, London   -o-   http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :|
|: http://libvirt.org  -o-  http://virt-manager.org  -o-  http://ovirt.org :|
|: http://autobuild.org       -o-         http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
|: GnuPG: 7D3B9505  -o-  F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505 :|



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 17 20:53:55 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:53:55 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #5: Identifying Your Locale -
 Chapter 5 update
In-Reply-To: <056.f0705d92a6844d2142028388bb143859@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.f0705d92a6844d2142028388bb143859@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.b9a1f5dfdbe777f676ef204cbc2a8606@fedorahosted.org>

#5: Identifying Your Locale - Chapter 5 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new        
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready   
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0     
Resolution:           |    Keywords:             
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by soulspecter):

  * owner:  quaid => soulspecter
  * summary:  Chapter 5 update => Identifying Your Locale - Chapter 5
              update

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/5#comment:1>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 17 20:59:55 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:59:55 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #13: Convert content from wiki Beats to
 XML (scripted)
In-Reply-To: <056.c003f10ad07cc4dd61b5ffba8cc2e5a0@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.c003f10ad07cc4dd61b5ffba8cc2e5a0@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.0d5052c2d6e69cf4187128b23f904c36@fedorahosted.org>

#13: Convert content from wiki Beats to XML (scripted)
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid  |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task   |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major  |   Milestone:  PR-ready
 Component:  Admin  |     Version:          
Resolution:         |    Keywords:          
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
Comment (by pfrields):

 Still working on this ticket, I think.  This comment is fluff and meant to
 trigger the email so we can check our mailman filters.  Sorry for the
 noise.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/13#comment:1>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sat Oct 18 01:46:23 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 01:46:23 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #13: Convert content from wiki Beats to
 XML (scripted)
In-Reply-To: <056.c003f10ad07cc4dd61b5ffba8cc2e5a0@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.c003f10ad07cc4dd61b5ffba8cc2e5a0@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.4528ae4847238ab8d2d754fc092ab23e@fedorahosted.org>

#13: Convert content from wiki Beats to XML (scripted)
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid  |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task   |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major  |   Milestone:  PR-ready
 Component:  Admin  |     Version:          
Resolution:         |    Keywords:          
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
Comment (by ricky):

 Karsten mentioned that conversions were usually done one page at a time,
 but if it's ever useful, here's a script to generate XML files for
 everything: http://ricky.fedorapeople.org/Docs/beats.py.  For a single
 file, it'd just involve running:
 {{{
 /usr/bin/mw-render -c http://fedoraproject.org/w/ -w docbook
 Docs/Beats/title -o output.xml
 }}}

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/13#comment:2>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sat Oct 18 12:04:43 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:04:43 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
In-Reply-To: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.108a5f1158c4ad3c0832e49ae6796c1d@fedorahosted.org>

#3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  assigned
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * status:  new => assigned

Comment:

 I've updated the new-users.xml in the git repository, and made sure these
 changes didn't introduce any validation errors.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/3#comment:8>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sat Oct 18 14:37:40 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:37:40 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #5: Identifying Your Locale -
 Chapter 5 update
In-Reply-To: <056.f0705d92a6844d2142028388bb143859@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.f0705d92a6844d2142028388bb143859@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.1de75af4ef246ceefa9dd93fe8011588@fedorahosted.org>

#5: Identifying Your Locale - Chapter 5 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new        
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready   
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0     
Resolution:           |    Keywords:             
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by soulspecter):

 In section 5.2 I think that

 "The installation program display a list of..."

 should read

 "The installation program displays a list..."

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/5#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From stickster at gmail.com  Sat Oct 18 16:20:51 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:20:51 -0400
Subject: Access to new git repos
In-Reply-To: <48F82625.8060000@redhat.com>
References: <20080930110756.GI27493@victoria-eth.internal.frields.org>
	<48F82625.8060000@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1224346851.3644.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2008-10-17 at 15:44 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> Paul W. Frields ????????:
> > If you are translating content for the Release Notes or Installation
> > Guide that have been relocated to Fedora Hosted, you do *not* need to
> > join any additional Fedora Account System groups.  You can submit PO
> > files through Transifex as needed.  If you prefer to check out the
> > content manually and provide PO files through Transifex, you can do an
> > anonymous checkout of a repository with this command:
> > 
> > git clone git://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes
> 
> I might be bit behind, though I tried to obtain PO file for 
> release-notes and start working, and found no change in PO file.
> Did I miss something?
> 
> git clone git://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes
> [noriko at noriko git]$ ls
> release-notes
> [noriko at noriko git]$ msgfmt -cvo /dev/null release-notes/po/ja.po
> 812 translated messages.

Hi Noriko,

I don't think you're that behind.  We have had some significant
difficulties getting the release notes material together this release.
Partly this is because beat writers have been scarce.  Partly this is
because we have tried to shift our workflow to using publican, with
mixed results.

Right now there is one remaining blocker, which is a problem with a
particular piece of XML content that's triggering a bug in xml2po, with
which our project toolchain creates POT/PO files.  Once we have that
fixed we can get the POT updated and make it available.

Karsten Wade is spearheading things as usual, but I have some time to
help this weekend (finally!) and am working on the POT issue.  I believe
the bug in xml2po is fixed in Rawhide so once I get a system updated
here to use it, we should be well on our way.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From valent.turkovic at gmail.com  Sat Oct 18 16:53:10 2008
From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:53:10 +0200
Subject: Much more emphasis on Fedora users needed in wiki
In-Reply-To: <64b14b300810171037t4c1b79d8hff46c6423cbf96eb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <64b14b300810171037t4c1b79d8hff46c6423cbf96eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <64b14b300810180953w604ddad8h98b0f9fdc6ae7424@mail.gmail.com>

I just posted a new howto on my blog.

Bluetooth GPS Fedora howto:
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/bluetooth-gps-fedora-howto/

Is there somewhere on Fedora wiki a place for it?

Cheers,
Valent.

--
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic



From stickster at gmail.com  Sun Oct 19 00:48:53 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:48:53 -0400
Subject: Much more emphasis on Fedora users needed in wiki
In-Reply-To: <64b14b300810180953w604ddad8h98b0f9fdc6ae7424@mail.gmail.com>
References: <64b14b300810171037t4c1b79d8hff46c6423cbf96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<64b14b300810180953w604ddad8h98b0f9fdc6ae7424@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081019004853.GB15384@salma.internal.frields.org>

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 06:53:10PM +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> I just posted a new howto on my blog.
> 
> Bluetooth GPS Fedora howto:
> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/bluetooth-gps-fedora-howto/
> 
> Is there somewhere on Fedora wiki a place for it?

You don't have to ask, Valent, it's a wiki.  Every user has a draft
space under their username on the wiki.  For instance, mine is:

  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields

When I want to post something for people to edit, I use:

  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/My_new_document

If you want the solution to be globally searchable, you can use:

  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Some_new_document

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 19 02:11:50 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 02:11:50 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #16: Chapter 16 First Boot
In-Reply-To: <056.24803034bd86857b4482ccced2ecb6d8@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.24803034bd86857b4482ccced2ecb6d8@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.f570d361a08845510f21fc7f64cf7413@fedorahosted.org>

#16: Chapter 16 First Boot
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  ke4qqq  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by ke4qqq):

  * owner:  quaid => ke4qqq
  * summary:  Chapter 16 update => Chapter 16 First Boot

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/16#comment:1>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 19 04:30:09 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 04:30:09 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #5: Identifying Your Locale -
 Chapter 5 update
In-Reply-To: <056.f0705d92a6844d2142028388bb143859@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.f0705d92a6844d2142028388bb143859@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.c5a84c88144dd0ca83c34d81ad9c06e0@fedorahosted.org>

#5: Identifying Your Locale - Chapter 5 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by soulspecter):

  * owner:  soulspecter => jsmith

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/5#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 19 05:24:07 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 05:24:07 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #4: Beginning the Installation -
 Chapter 4 update
In-Reply-To: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.3690ca3cd069c2d7554fe8bfaa938d00@fedorahosted.org>

#4: Beginning the Installation - Chapter 4 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new        
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready   
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0     
Resolution:           |    Keywords:             
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by soulspecter):

 In section 4.1 there is a change in the boot screen. We should note that:

 "When using Fedora Live media, press any key during the initial boot
 countdown to bring up the Boot Options menu. The boot options include:"

 In section 4.3 we should probably make note that:

 "BitTorrent Automatically Verifies File Integrity
 If you use BitTorrent, any files you download are automatically validated.
 If your file completes downloading you do not need to check it. Once you
 burn your CD or DVD, however, during the installation you should still use
 mediacheck to verify the integrity of the media."

 In section 4.5 the following should at least be added to the begining if
 not replace the current bullet points:

 "Fedora 10 supports graphical FTP and HTTP installations. However, the
 installer image must either fit in RAM or appear on local storage, such as
 the installation DVD or Live Media. Therefore, only systems with more than
 192MB of RAM or that boot from the installation DVD or Live Media can use
 the graphical installer. Systems with 192MB RAM or less automatically
 scale back to using the text-based installer. If you prefer to use the
 text-based installer, type linux text at the boot: prompt."

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/4#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 19 05:53:40 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 05:53:40 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #4: Beginning the Installation -
 Chapter 4 update
In-Reply-To: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.71594c70178e32b15d59166a847ee9a3@fedorahosted.org>

#4: Beginning the Installation - Chapter 4 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new        
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready   
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0     
Resolution:           |    Keywords:             
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by soulspecter):

 In section 4.4, according to
 [https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Installer#Installation_media],
 we might need to make note that:

 "Multiple NICs and PXE installation

 Some servers with multiple network interfaces may not assign eth0 to the
 first network interface as BIOS knows it, which can cause the installer to
 try using a different network interface than was used by PXE. To change
 this behavior, use the following in pxelinux.cfg/* config files:

 IPAPPEND 2
 APPEND ksdevice=bootif

 The configuration options above causes the installer to use the same
 network interface as BIOS and PXE use. You can also use the following
 option:

 ksdevice=link

 This option causes the installer to use the first network device it finds
 that is linked to a network switch."

 The attached XML file has this change.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/4#comment:4>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 19 05:55:54 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 05:55:54 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #4: Beginning the Installation -
 Chapter 4 update
In-Reply-To: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.3cfbb43e746cc72aa7afc196d48fc685@fedorahosted.org>

#4: Beginning the Installation - Chapter 4 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by soulspecter):

  * owner:  soulspecter => jsmith

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/4#comment:5>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 19 05:57:01 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 05:57:01 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #6: Installation Methods - Chapter
 6 update
In-Reply-To: <056.ae94563273eb00e56b291464a7a20c02@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.ae94563273eb00e56b291464a7a20c02@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.ce68e60f168597cac83ca38d204f1d80@fedorahosted.org>

#6: Installation Methods - Chapter 6 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new        
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready   
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0     
Resolution:           |    Keywords:             
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by soulspecter):

  * owner:  quaid => soulspecter
  * summary:  Chapter 6 update => Installation Methods - Chapter 6 update

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/6#comment:1>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From stickster at gmail.com  Sun Oct 19 14:01:19 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:01:19 +0000
Subject: Release Notes POT
Message-ID: <1224424879.5888.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

The release notes POT is (finally!) updated in the git repo.  Thank you
to Jared Smith for all his help.  There was a lingering bug in xml2po
that is fixed in Rawhide, and Jared had a Rawhide box available to help
with this task.

Do we need to notify Fedora L10n whenever we drop new POT like this?  Or
will Transifex automatically record the change?  When I look at:
http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-release-notes 
It appears that Transifex understands the POT change, but has incorrect
statistics listed on the page.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Sun Oct 19 16:36:08 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 09:36:08 -0700
Subject: Release Notes POT
In-Reply-To: <1224424879.5888.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1224424879.5888.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1224434168.21380.13.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 14:01 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> The release notes POT is (finally!) updated in the git repo.  Thank you
> to Jared Smith for all his help.  There was a lingering bug in xml2po
> that is fixed in Rawhide, and Jared had a Rawhide box available to help
> with this task.

OMG!  Thanks to both of you, if I had been up against that one it
wouldn't have been found or fixed. :)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 19 17:20:28 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 17:20:28 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #7: Chapter 7 update
In-Reply-To: <056.1a4904dc1a22d8d02140ce171d76c8bd@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.1a4904dc1a22d8d02140ce171d76c8bd@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.4c2fa053cbe172e749d9f53713234c1d@fedorahosted.org>

#7: Chapter 7 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  chr1sjohnson
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new         
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready    
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0      
Resolution:           |    Keywords:              
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by chr1sjohnson):

  * owner:  quaid => chr1sjohnson

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/7#comment:1>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 19 17:20:57 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 17:20:57 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #8: Chapter 8 update
In-Reply-To: <056.971123e0bc40100bb1f938f387a40bd7@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.971123e0bc40100bb1f938f387a40bd7@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.af26a01c211d1cdcb109ba3b18fd7629@fedorahosted.org>

#8: Chapter 8 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  chr1sjohnson
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new         
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready    
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0      
Resolution:           |    Keywords:              
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by chr1sjohnson):

  * owner:  quaid => chr1sjohnson

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/8#comment:1>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 19 18:40:54 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 18:40:54 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #4: Beginning the Installation -
 Chapter 4 update
In-Reply-To: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.34743931f931f135d5bef57c94bc8fe0@fedorahosted.org>

#4: Beginning the Installation - Chapter 4 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by soulspecter):

 one more note about section 4.1. For the boot from DVD media the boot menu
 that I see does not include the option to use "text mode." I don't know if
 this might be in the final release, but my testing (on i386 platform) with
 F10 Beta doesn't include that option - id does include the other options
 thought.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/4#comment:6>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 19 19:08:35 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 19:08:35 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #9: Network Configuration - Chapter
 9 update
In-Reply-To: <056.a9fe8c36b0e2d91e0b922e896c8f6d0c@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.a9fe8c36b0e2d91e0b922e896c8f6d0c@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.ff8c9ecba8f26937db79a19076013d86@fedorahosted.org>

#9: Network Configuration - Chapter 9 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new        
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready   
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0     
Resolution:           |    Keywords:             
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by soulspecter):

  * owner:  quaid => soulspecter
  * summary:  Chapter 9 update => Network Configuration - Chapter 9 update

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/9#comment:1>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 19 19:26:57 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 19:26:57 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #6: Installation Methods - Chapter
 6 update
In-Reply-To: <056.ae94563273eb00e56b291464a7a20c02@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.ae94563273eb00e56b291464a7a20c02@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.cce396f0eaadc40cb52067b78765fbfe@fedorahosted.org>

#6: Installation Methods - Chapter 6 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  fozz    
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by soulspecter):

  * owner:  soulspecter => fozz

Comment:

 Fozz, can you review changes to this chapter? Thanks

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/6#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Sun Oct 19 22:36:29 2008
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 04:06:29 +0530
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #4: Beginning the Installation -
	Chapter 4 update
Message-ID: <78323d480810191536u6568af43kfb87e4fd2ab9ab82@mail.gmail.com>

"Fedora Installation Guide" <trac at fedorahosted.org> wrote:
> #4: Beginning the Installation - Chapter 4 update
> ----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
>  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
>      Type:  task     |      Status:  new
>  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
>  Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0
> Resolution:           |    Keywords:
> ----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
> Comment (by soulspecter):
>  In section 4.3 we should probably make note that:
>
>  "BitTorrent Automatically Verifies File Integrity
>  If you use BitTorrent, any files you download are automatically validated.
>  If your file completes downloading you do not need to check it. Once you

Many BitTorrent clients (including Ktorrent) do not perform automatic
verification. They must be asked to check data integrity.

>  burn your CD or DVD, however, during the installation you should still use
>  mediacheck to verify the integrity of the media."
>

Best

A. Mani



-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc



From oisinfeeley at imapmail.org  Mon Oct 20 00:44:23 2008
From: oisinfeeley at imapmail.org (Oisin Feeley)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 20:44:23 -0400
Subject: lead writer - you?
In-Reply-To: <d6e6dfeb0810171109w7534d74bt987f4bc88962e9cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1224214535.28571.279.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<d6e6dfeb0810171109w7534d74bt987f4bc88962e9cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1224463463.2261.1280132925@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:09:51 -0400, "David Nalley"
<david.nalley at fedoraproject.org> said:
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:35 PM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com>
> wrote:
> > We could use someone to take full responsibility for the start to
> > publish for each of these guides, ongoing for now and possibly future
> > releases:
> >
> > * Release Notes
> > * Installation Guide
> > * Packaging Guide
> > * User Guide
> >
> > Interested?  Want to hear more?
> >
> 
> So the pieces I see as missing from this posting are:
> 
> What are the responsibilities of a lead writer (hopefully a more
> verbose explanation than 'everything')
> What are the qualifications for a lead writer?
> What is the typical time investment for a lead writer?
> What tools are used and which of those need to be known ahead of time?

I'd find this useful too. I am interested in all except the Packaging
Guide, but although I have some DocBook experience I'd like to have a
better idea of what the task is before I jump in.

Best wishes 
-- 
  Oisin Feeley
  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OisinFeeley



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 20 02:49:29 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 02:49:29 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #10: Chapter 10 update
In-Reply-To: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.974a54bdb83f69e52f7edec5afe5577d@fedorahosted.org>

#10: Chapter 10 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  nguyenj 
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by nguyenj):

  * owner:  quaid => nguyenj

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/10#comment:1>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 20 02:51:12 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 02:51:12 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #11: Chapter 11 update
In-Reply-To: <056.ea754428ca88d9764cc5ca90c9a5cc80@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.ea754428ca88d9764cc5ca90c9a5cc80@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.e8787f043813e6a40609fd6bb0412071@fedorahosted.org>

#11: Chapter 11 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  nguyenj 
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by nguyenj):

  * owner:  quaid => nguyenj

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/11#comment:1>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 20 03:05:50 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 03:05:50 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #10: Chapter 10 update
In-Reply-To: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.b0ce1a051d53613733dd50ef4adb4704@fedorahosted.org>

#10: Chapter 10 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  ericklemon
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new       
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready  
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0    
Resolution:           |    Keywords:            
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by ericklemon):

  * owner:  nguyenj => ericklemon

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/10#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 20 03:39:41 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 03:39:41 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #16: Chapter 16 First Boot
In-Reply-To: <056.24803034bd86857b4482ccced2ecb6d8@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.24803034bd86857b4482ccced2ecb6d8@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.4abd3bf60efc7342521f287120a3160a@fedorahosted.org>

#16: Chapter 16 First Boot
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  ke4qqq  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  assigned
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by ke4qqq):

  * status:  new => assigned

Comment:

 stripped firewall, soundcard, selinux that were already commented out.
 Firstboot has slightly changed the order, to put create users in front of
 date and time. I changed the order of existing content. I believe the rest
 is correct, but would welcome others to fact check the chapter.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/16#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 20 04:01:59 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 04:01:59 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #15: Chapter 15: Installing packages
In-Reply-To: <056.c48cf6e146d0dd70146bf1a2c9a06767@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.c48cf6e146d0dd70146bf1a2c9a06767@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.e5fb911c718a76edd9308460fc7a23ea@fedorahosted.org>

#15: Chapter 15: Installing packages
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  ke4qqq  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by ke4qqq):

  * owner:  quaid => ke4qqq
  * summary:  Chapter 15 update => Chapter 15: Installing packages

Comment:

 This looks up to date.
 I have not fact checked the tip about livecd based installation skipping
 first boot. (I haven't done a F10 LiveCD-based install)

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/15#comment:1>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Oct 20 13:24:45 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 09:24:45 -0400
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #4: Beginning the Installation -
	Chapter 4 update
In-Reply-To: <78323d480810191536u6568af43kfb87e4fd2ab9ab82@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78323d480810191536u6568af43kfb87e4fd2ab9ab82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1224509085.7047.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 04:06 +0530, Mani A wrote:
> "Fedora Installation Guide" <trac at fedorahosted.org> wrote:
> > #4: Beginning the Installation - Chapter 4 update
> > ----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
> >  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
> >      Type:  task     |      Status:  new
> >  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
> >  Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0
> > Resolution:           |    Keywords:
> > ----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
> > Comment (by soulspecter):
> >  In section 4.3 we should probably make note that:
> >
> >  "BitTorrent Automatically Verifies File Integrity
> >  If you use BitTorrent, any files you download are automatically validated.
> >  If your file completes downloading you do not need to check it. Once you
> 
> Many BitTorrent clients (including Ktorrent) do not perform automatic
> verification. They must be asked to check data integrity.

Are you certain about that?  This is part of the BitTorrent protocol
itself AIUI, not the application level.  The only want for *any*
BitTorrent client to know it got a correct, complete chunk is to check
the sha1sum for that chunk.  Which means that, by definition, if you
have completed all chunks, your file has been automatically validated.
I think this text is correct as written.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 20 20:13:23 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:13:23 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #1: Chapter 1 update
In-Reply-To: <056.ec0f2db107c6aef0dcffd993b287322e@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.ec0f2db107c6aef0dcffd993b287322e@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.671a2ddac28af57dea6063a56c783f13@fedorahosted.org>

#1: Chapter 1 update
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid        |       Owner:  ke4qqq  
      Type:  enhancement  |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content      |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:               |    Keywords:          
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
Changes (by eawest):

  * priority:  major => minor
  * type:  task => enhancement

Comment:

 Recommend change in first paragraph, third sentence from

 '''"The installation system is flexible enough to use even if you have no
 previous knowledge of Linux or computer networks."'''

 to

 '''"The installation system is easy to use even if you lack previous
 knowledge of Linux or computer networks."'''

 Explanation: Sentence's position in the middle of the paragraph is not
 great for such a lengthy sentence when the message is simple "This is
 easy, even for novices." Removing just those two words makes the sentence
 more succinct and easy to understand for the reader.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/1#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Oct 20 20:34:56 2008
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 02:04:56 +0530
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #4: Beginning the Installation -
 Chapter 4 update
In-Reply-To: <1224509085.7047.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <78323d480810191536u6568af43kfb87e4fd2ab9ab82@mail.gmail.com>
	<1224509085.7047.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <48FCEB70.2050408@fedoraproject.org>

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 04:06 +0530, Mani A wrote:
>> "Fedora Installation Guide" <trac at fedorahosted.org> wrote:
>>> #4: Beginning the Installation - Chapter 4 update
>>> ----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
>>>  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
>>>      Type:  task     |      Status:  new
>>>  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
>>>  Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0
>>> Resolution:           |    Keywords:
>>> ----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
>>> Comment (by soulspecter):
>>>  In section 4.3 we should probably make note that:
>>>
>>>  "BitTorrent Automatically Verifies File Integrity
>>>  If you use BitTorrent, any files you download are automatically validated.
>>>  If your file completes downloading you do not need to check it. Once you
>> Many BitTorrent clients (including Ktorrent) do not perform automatic
>> verification. They must be asked to check data integrity.
> 
> Are you certain about that?  This is part of the BitTorrent protocol
> itself AIUI, not the application level.  The only want for *any*
> BitTorrent client to know it got a correct, complete chunk is to check
> the sha1sum for that chunk.  Which means that, by definition, if you
> have completed all chunks, your file has been automatically validated.
> I think this text is correct as written.

That's correct. Any bittorrent client has to do this automatically. It 
is a inherent property of the protocol.

Rahul



From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Mon Oct 20 22:53:26 2008
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 04:23:26 +0530
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #4: Beginning the Installation -
	Chapter 4 update
Message-ID: <78323d480810201553k67b5228euede1283bfed58895@mail.gmail.com>

"Paul W. Frields" <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Many BitTorrent clients (including Ktorrent) do not perform automatic
>> verification. They must be asked to check data integrity.
>
> Are you certain about that?  This is part of the BitTorrent protocol
> itself AIUI, not the application level.  The only want for *any*
> BitTorrent client to know it got a correct, complete chunk is to check
> the sha1sum for that chunk.  Which means that, by definition, if you
> have completed all chunks, your file has been automatically validated.
> I think this text is correct as written.

Maybe it is a bug.
I have seen such behavior in Ktorrent-2.2.5 and 3.1.2.
The former has tabbed windows for downloads and uploads.
After download of a file finishes, it moves to the upload window. Here
manual data integrity checks may cause the download to move back and
get corrected. Once I skipped the final manual check and got a bad
Suse iso (corrected it with ktorrent again, only after k3b
complained).

Best

A. Mani



-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Tue Oct 21 00:47:47 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:47:47 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #4: Beginning the Installation -
 Chapter 4 update
In-Reply-To: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.3e709d2e1d8e3a7e5ed462654fe97284@fedorahosted.org>

#4: Beginning the Installation - Chapter 4 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  assigned
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * status:  new => assigned

Comment:

 I've checked the changes into the git repo, as well as fixed up a few
 minor issues with some of the DocBook tagging.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/4#comment:7>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Tue Oct 21 00:54:47 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:54:47 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #5: Identifying Your Locale -
 Chapter 5 update
In-Reply-To: <056.f0705d92a6844d2142028388bb143859@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.f0705d92a6844d2142028388bb143859@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.30c9f8cdedd8975af02c66f9c10e4146@fedorahosted.org>

#5: Identifying Your Locale - Chapter 5 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  assigned
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * status:  new => assigned

Comment:

 Updates pushed to git repo, and made one minor grammer edit.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/5#comment:4>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net  Tue Oct 21 01:08:10 2008
From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:08:10 -0400
Subject: Install Guide snapshot
Message-ID: <1224551290.8633.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I've posted a snapshot of the Install Guide at
http://jsmith.fedorapeople.org/drafts/, and my plan is to update it from
the git repository at least twice a day (morning and evening Eastern
time) every day this week to help out the team.  Please feel free to
read through it, and make comments on the tickets for the various
chapters. [1]

-Jared

[1] https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/report/1





From trac at fedorahosted.org  Tue Oct 21 01:27:04 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:27:04 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #9: Network Configuration - Chapter
 9 update
In-Reply-To: <056.a9fe8c36b0e2d91e0b922e896c8f6d0c@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.a9fe8c36b0e2d91e0b922e896c8f6d0c@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.319dacd31a1608f037c577f6942efd4e@fedorahosted.org>

#9: Network Configuration - Chapter 9 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new        
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready   
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0     
Resolution:           |    Keywords:             
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by soulspecter):

 A few lines were removed from section 9. And this was added to the
 begining:

 "Setup simply prompts for the hostname and the settings used
         during installation are written to the system..."

 Section 9.1 and subsection, 9.2 and 9.3 were removed since Network Manager
 now only asks for a host name in the network setup process.

 The "MODEM Config" tip and the "IPv6 and Boot Options" note are still
 included.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/9#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From poelstra at redhat.com  Tue Oct 21 03:11:16 2008
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:11:16 -0700
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
In-Reply-To: <1224165041.19681.45.camel@victoria-eth>
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>	<1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<48F53339.8040300@redhat.com>	<1224100436.28571.199.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224165041.19681.45.camel@victoria-eth>
Message-ID: <48FD4854.3030602@redhat.com>

Paul W. Frields said the following on 10/16/2008 06:50 AM Pacific Time:
> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 12:53 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
>> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 10:03 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
>>
>>> It might be too late to respond, but I am familiar with IRC, so +1 for IRC.
>>> Thank you for bringing this up.
>> +1 to IRC.
>>
>> We also need to use Gobby for shared, real-time document editing.
>>
>> Where Gobby doesn't work for someone, we can do regular (~5 minute)
>> saves to a wiki page, and take input via IRC.
>>
>> Considering the folks involved ... 
>>
>> UTC +2
>> UTC +10
>> UTC -7
>>
>> When is a good time?
> 
> Someone's going to get shafted on the timezone, no question.  I can do a
> night meeting but it means Central Europe is asleep.  I can do a morning
> but then Karsten will be asleep.  And in between, Brisbane is asleep!
> Wow, this is making me sleepy too....
> 

I'd vote for UTC -7

John



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Tue Oct 21 05:57:42 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 05:57:42 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #29: Remove whitespace trigger ugly PDF
 formatting
Message-ID: <056.1b37cd5f20147aaca18718e3850cf91b@fedorahosted.org>

#29: Remove whitespace trigger ugly PDF formatting
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  quaid   
     Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
 Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
Component:  Content  |     Version:  10      
 Keywords:           |  
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
 Just in case we cannot get this fixed in the PDF toolchain, we need to
 remove all the leading whitespace for tags that display CDATA or other
 content verbatim.

 This could be done as part of a general run of a tool such as docbook-lint
 or xmlformat.  Before doing that, we need to assess the risk of the tool
 chaining line numbers and causing translation stats to go fuzzy.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/29>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From noriko at redhat.com  Tue Oct 21 06:46:22 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:46:22 +1000
Subject: How to translate release-note
Message-ID: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>

Hi Paul and Karsten

I've started the following for release-note translation.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_work_using_git

Now the following commands do not work for me.
make test
make validate-ja-JP

[noriko at noriko release-notes]$ make test
make: *** No rule to make target `test'.  Stop.
[noriko at noriko release-notes]$ make validate-ja-JP
make: *** No rule to make target `validate-ja-JP'.  Stop.

I tried to edit Makefile to add;
OTHER_LANGS    = ja-JP
then
[noriko at noriko release-notes]$ make test
grep: ja-JP/Article_Info.po: No such file or directory
make: *** No rule to make target `test'.  Stop.

I tried to change the language code to match the one under po/ directory
in Makefile;
OTHER_LANGS    = ja
then
[noriko at noriko release-notes]$ make test
grep: ja/Article_Info.po: No such file or directory
make: *** No rule to make target `test'.  Stop.

It seems that I need your help.

noriko



From noriko at redhat.com  Tue Oct 21 07:16:58 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:16:58 +1000
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
In-Reply-To: <48FD4854.3030602@redhat.com>
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>	<1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<48F53339.8040300@redhat.com>	<1224100436.28571.199.camel@calliope.phig.org>	<1224165041.19681.45.camel@victoria-eth>
	<48FD4854.3030602@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <48FD81EA.2020409@redhat.com>

John Poelstra ????????:
> Paul W. Frields said the following on 10/16/2008 06:50 AM Pacific Time:
>> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 12:53 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 10:03 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
>>>
>>>> It might be too late to respond, but I am familiar with IRC, so +1 
>>>> for IRC.
>>>> Thank you for bringing this up.
>>> +1 to IRC.
>>>
>>> We also need to use Gobby for shared, real-time document editing.
>>>
>>> Where Gobby doesn't work for someone, we can do regular (~5 minute)
>>> saves to a wiki page, and take input via IRC.
>>>
>>> Considering the folks involved ...
>>> UTC +2
>>> UTC +10
>>> UTC -7
>>>
>>> When is a good time?
>>
>> Someone's going to get shafted on the timezone, no question.  I can do a
>> night meeting but it means Central Europe is asleep.  I can do a morning
>> but then Karsten will be asleep.  And in between, Brisbane is asleep!
>> Wow, this is making me sleepy too....
>>
> 
> I'd vote for UTC -7

I will try my best, let us know what exact time to be.

noriko
> 
> John
> 
> -- 
> Fedora-trans-list mailing list
> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Oct 21 07:34:47 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:34:47 -0700
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>
References: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1224574487.21380.155.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 16:46 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> Hi Paul and Karsten
> 
> I've started the following for release-note translation.
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_work_using_git
> 
> Now the following commands do not work for me.
> make test
> make validate-ja-JP

I've been looking in to this (and the below.)  Noriko is using Publican
on RHEL 5.  I currently cannot get it the relnotes to build in Publican.

We have to use the older toolchain until the single v. multiple PO files
situation is resolved.  Unfortunately, it is not packaged (yet) as we
did not anticipate needing to use it.

So, before Brisbane (and Pune) come back online in their morning, can we
find a way for them to test their translations of the F10 release notes
with a build tool?

First ideas:

* Create fedorahosted.org/fedora-docs-utils and make a package from it;
throw it up on the hosted site for download.  See if we can get an RPM
for EL 5 and Fedora 9.

* Put up a tarball and instructions on using it.

* Get the tools working properly in SCM and host it from git on
fedorahosted.org; have people clone the document and fedora-docs-utils
in order to build.

- Karsten

> 
> [noriko at noriko release-notes]$ make test
> make: *** No rule to make target `test'.  Stop.
> [noriko at noriko release-notes]$ make validate-ja-JP
> make: *** No rule to make target `validate-ja-JP'.  Stop.
> 
> I tried to edit Makefile to add;
> OTHER_LANGS    = ja-JP
> then
> [noriko at noriko release-notes]$ make test
> grep: ja-JP/Article_Info.po: No such file or directory
> make: *** No rule to make target `test'.  Stop.
> 
> I tried to change the language code to match the one under po/ directory
> in Makefile;
> OTHER_LANGS    = ja
> then
> [noriko at noriko release-notes]$ make test
> grep: ja/Article_Info.po: No such file or directory
> make: *** No rule to make target `test'.  Stop.
> 
> It seems that I need your help.
> 
> noriko
> 
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From trac at fedorahosted.org  Tue Oct 21 11:34:18 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:34:18 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #29: Remove whitespace trigger ugly PDF
 formatting
In-Reply-To: <056.1b37cd5f20147aaca18718e3850cf91b@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.1b37cd5f20147aaca18718e3850cf91b@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.da5425634245a26e4d737532bdbce0ac@fedorahosted.org>

#29: Remove whitespace trigger ugly PDF formatting
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10      
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by pfrields):

 CDATA shouldn't generate any translation strings, so we're OK there.  I
 completely disagree with certain parties who think CDATA is a hack -- on
 the contrary, it's been part of the XML standard since day one.

 Are we back to this problem of flush-left content again?  That just seems
 like a stupid bug to me and I can't believe we as writers and editors
 still have to use this kind of manual workaround.  Argh!

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/29#comment:1>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Tue Oct 21 11:53:56 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:53:56 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #29: Remove whitespace trigger ugly PDF
 formatting
In-Reply-To: <056.1b37cd5f20147aaca18718e3850cf91b@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.1b37cd5f20147aaca18718e3850cf91b@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.a64eecb58d582f47d3af3f3ffe6ac52f@fedorahosted.org>

#29: Remove whitespace trigger ugly PDF formatting
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10      
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by pfrields):

 Ah, I think I recall that it was extra markup inside <screen> that made
 this occur.  This markup would be problematic:

 <screen>
   <computeroutput>too much spacing</computeroutput>
 </screen>

 This might work better:

 <screen><![CDATA[spacing OK but maybe not so syntactically
 correct]]></screen>

 Perhaps standardizing on this usage in the markup howto would help?

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/29#comment:2>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net  Tue Oct 21 12:48:50 2008
From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:48:50 -0400
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>
References: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1224593330.3590.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 16:46 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> I've started the following for release-note translation.
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_work_using_git
> 
> Now the following commands do not work for me.
> make test
> make validate-ja-JP

Mizumoto-san, (I did say that correctly, right?)

Currently I'm only able to get it to build with the (non-Publican)
Fedora toolchain, by doing:

make -f Makefile.old validate-xml-en_US

That being said, you *should* be able to:

make -f Makefile.old validate-xml-ja

(Of course, that gives me an error I don't understand.)  Hopefully that
at least gets you started in the right direction until we can get this
building in Publican.

-Jared





From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 13:49:08 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:49:08 -0400
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <1224593330.3590.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>
	<1224593330.3590.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1224596948.25862.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 08:48 -0400, Jared Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 16:46 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> > I've started the following for release-note translation.
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_work_using_git
> > 
> > Now the following commands do not work for me.
> > make test
> > make validate-ja-JP
> 
> Mizumoto-san, (I did say that correctly, right?)
> 
> Currently I'm only able to get it to build with the (non-Publican)
> Fedora toolchain, by doing:
> 
> make -f Makefile.old validate-xml-en_US
> 
> That being said, you *should* be able to:
> 
> make -f Makefile.old validate-xml-ja
> 
> (Of course, that gives me an error I don't understand.)  Hopefully that
> at least gets you started in the right direction until we can get this
> building in Publican.

Do you think it would be worthwhile to rename as follows?

  Makefile     --> Makefile.publican
  Makefile.old --> Makefile

That would make the procedures correspond better with the current TQSG
and maybe be less confusing.  I could add another Makefile rule that
gives a detailed response if there's no "docs-common" found.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu  Tue Oct 21 15:14:26 2008
From: dlbewley at lib.ucdavis.edu (Dale Bewley)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:14:26 -0700
Subject: lead writer - you?
In-Reply-To: <1224214535.28571.279.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1224214535.28571.279.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1224602066.18346.36.camel@tofu.lib.ucdavis.edu>

On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 20:35 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> We could use someone to take full responsibility for the start to
> publish for each of these guides, ongoing for now and possibly future
> releases:
> 
> * Release Notes
> * Installation Guide
> * Packaging Guide
> * User Guide
> 
> Interested?  Want to hear more?
> 
> There are a few more out there (Virtualization Guide, RPM Guide) that
> could be picked up as well.
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_content_tasks_for_experienced_contributors

I'm interested in working on the Virtualization Guide. Not knowing the
full implications of the "Guide" format or being a lead, and not yet
being very familiar with docbook, etc. I presume the best way to get
started is to just begin revising the virtualization quickstart guide[1]
with the idea it could become a "Guide" guide? 

It's something I've pondered for quite a while. It looks to be in better
shape than I recalled. There was previously only a F8 specific guide.

Also, checking out the other guides[2] seems like a good idea. If Guide
has a formal definition, should there be a Guide category in MW? Is
there an index page I'm missing?


[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Virtualization_Quick_Start
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Administration_Guide
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Draft_Documentation and of
course http://docs.fedoraproject.org/documentation-guide/

-- 
Dale Bewley - Unix Administrator - Shields Library - UC Davis
GPG: 0xB098A0F3 0D5A 9AEB 43F4 F84C 7EFD  1753 064D 2583 B098 A0F3



From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 17:17:55 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:17:55 -0400
Subject: lead writer - you?
In-Reply-To: <1224463463.2261.1280132925@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1224214535.28571.279.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<d6e6dfeb0810171109w7534d74bt987f4bc88962e9cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<1224463463.2261.1280132925@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <1224609475.25862.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 20:44 -0400, Oisin Feeley wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:09:51 -0400, "David Nalley"
> <david.nalley at fedoraproject.org> said:
> > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:35 PM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade <kwade at redhat.com>
> > wrote:
> > > We could use someone to take full responsibility for the start to
> > > publish for each of these guides, ongoing for now and possibly future
> > > releases:
> > >
> > > * Release Notes
> > > * Installation Guide
> > > * Packaging Guide
> > > * User Guide
> > >
> > > Interested?  Want to hear more?
> > >
> > 
> > So the pieces I see as missing from this posting are:
> > 
> > What are the responsibilities of a lead writer (hopefully a more
> > verbose explanation than 'everything')
> > What are the qualifications for a lead writer?
> > What is the typical time investment for a lead writer?
> > What tools are used and which of those need to be known ahead of time?
> 
> I'd find this useful too. I am interested in all except the Packaging
> Guide, but although I have some DocBook experience I'd like to have a
> better idea of what the task is before I jump in.

Since there are people popping up to take these responsibilities, it's
important to lay out answers to these questions.  That will help us keep
momentum going even during a lull in release notes progress, which I
realize has been on everyone's minds the past week or so.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Tue Oct 21 17:29:47 2008
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:29:47 -0400
Subject: lead writer - you?
References: <1224214535.28571.279.camel@calliope.phig.org><d6e6dfeb0810171109w7534d74bt987f4bc88962e9cc@mail.gmail.com><1224463463.2261.1280132925@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<1224609475.25862.99.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <0FA5414B66024CF49875A90376E92F66@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul W. Frields" <stickster at gmail.com>
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 
<fedora-docs-list at redhat.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: lead writer - you?

> Since there are people popping up to take these responsibilities,
> it's important to lay out answers to these questions.

Time to run a class on IRC maybe?

--McD




From trac at fedorahosted.org  Tue Oct 21 19:04:47 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:04:47 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #29: Remove whitespace trigger ugly PDF
 formatting
In-Reply-To: <056.1b37cd5f20147aaca18718e3850cf91b@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.1b37cd5f20147aaca18718e3850cf91b@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.b08087fee3ac0b0bac5194cce396aa79@fedorahosted.org>

#29: Remove whitespace trigger ugly PDF formatting
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10      
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by quaid):

 I'd rather munge our XML formatting than lose the contextual markup.

 Markup inside of <screen> is explicitly allowed.  If <screen> also
 explicitly displays all whitespace as-is, then our having the whitespace
 there is a formatting mistake.  Just because Emacs indents by default :)
 ...

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/29#comment:3>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Tue Oct 21 21:42:49 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:42:49 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
In-Reply-To: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.f16b1dfbb8323327f696dd9edaef0d35@fedorahosted.org>

#3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  eawest  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * owner:  jsmith => eawest
  * status:  assigned => new

Comment:

 I've been told to re-assign these tickets to you, now that the changes
 have been made in the git repository.  Snapshots are also available at
 http://jsmith.fedorapeople.org/drafts/, and will be updated at least twice
 daily this week.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/3#comment:9>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Tue Oct 21 21:43:30 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:43:30 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #4: Beginning the Installation -
 Chapter 4 update
In-Reply-To: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.744bbec1812fe5bda291ea573b1f7ea1@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.c6175da31fcdd4b9edf5b5d1537ad837@fedorahosted.org>

#4: Beginning the Installation - Chapter 4 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  eawest  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * owner:  jsmith => eawest
  * status:  assigned => new

Comment:

 Changes to Chapter 4 have been incorporated into the git repo, and are
 ready for wordsmithing.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/4#comment:8>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Tue Oct 21 21:44:14 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:44:14 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #5: Identifying Your Locale -
 Chapter 5 update
In-Reply-To: <056.f0705d92a6844d2142028388bb143859@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.f0705d92a6844d2142028388bb143859@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.cbe4e19de99a1ed945276fbee3f8ccbc@fedorahosted.org>

#5: Identifying Your Locale - Chapter 5 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  eawest  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * owner:  jsmith => eawest
  * status:  assigned => new

Comment:

 Changes in Chapter 5 have been checked into the git repository, and are
 ready for wordsmithing.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/5#comment:5>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Oct 21 22:10:56 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:10:56 -0700
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <1224596948.25862.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>
	<1224593330.3590.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1224596948.25862.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1224627056.21380.240.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 09:49 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:

> Do you think it would be worthwhile to rename as follows?
> 
>   Makefile     --> Makefile.publican
>   Makefile.old --> Makefile
> 
> That would make the procedures correspond better with the current TQSG
> and maybe be less confusing.  I could add another Makefile rule that
> gives a detailed response if there's no "docs-common" found.

+1

Best might be a way to call either toolchain from a make command option,
with one Makefile wrapping Makefile.publican or
Makefile.fedora-docs-utils.  But maybe we don't need that logic for
long?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From trac at fedorahosted.org  Tue Oct 21 22:59:22 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:59:22 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #30: Links to Feature pages for all features
 discussed
Message-ID: <056.8d6e63222bc4b520e1812f116730145f@fedorahosted.org>

#30: Links to Feature pages for all features discussed
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  quaid   
     Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
 Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  PR-ready
Component:  Content  |     Version:  10      
 Keywords:           |  
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
 ... even the features that weren't complete but still have useful content.
 We were inconsistent with this.  Hopefully we can just tag a
 <para><ulink/></para> block on the end without disturbing the l10n stats.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/30>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 23:28:21 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:28:21 -0400
Subject: Release Notes heads-up
Message-ID: <20081021232821.GA1399@localhost.localdomain>

Jesse, et al. -- 

Be on the lookout for slight changes in the release notes package.
Content has changed somewhat while we try to maneuver our tools closer
to using the publican tool.  We will probably not make that target for
F10, but the changes we have made are subtle:

* Names of documents may have changed from
  e.g. RELEASE-NOTES-en_US.html => Release_Notes-en-US.html.

* To be safe, you may want to have any tools that copy content for use
  on our released spins check for both "en-US" and "en_US" in the
  appropriate places.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 23:59:20 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:59:20 -0400
Subject: 0 commits -
In-Reply-To: <20081021233907.308E7C046B@lists.fedorahosted.org>
References: <20081021233907.308E7C046B@lists.fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <1224633560.11885.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 23:39 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Rebased ref, commits from common ancestor:

This is why one should be *very* careful pushing from master directly.
I used a wrong refspec for git-push and ended up removing
'master' (temporarily!) from the server.  Thank heavens for the way git
works, because I was able to restore the 'master' branch successfully
with a new push.

/me wipes sweat from brow and promises not to do that again.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 00:09:25 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 20:09:25 -0400
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <1224627056.21380.240.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>
	<1224593330.3590.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1224596948.25862.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1224627056.21380.240.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1224634165.11885.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 15:10 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 09:49 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> 
> > Do you think it would be worthwhile to rename as follows?
> > 
> >   Makefile     --> Makefile.publican
> >   Makefile.old --> Makefile
> > 
> > That would make the procedures correspond better with the current TQSG
> > and maybe be less confusing.  I could add another Makefile rule that
> > gives a detailed response if there's no "docs-common" found.
> 
> +1
> 
> Best might be a way to call either toolchain from a make command option,
> with one Makefile wrapping Makefile.publican or
> Makefile.fedora-docs-utils.  But maybe we don't need that logic for
> long?

Yeah, it's probably more trouble than it's worth.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From noriko at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 00:26:48 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:26:48 +1000
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <1224596948.25862.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>	<1224593330.3590.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1224596948.25862.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <48FE7348.3020203@redhat.com>

Paul W. Frields ????????:
> On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 08:48 -0400, Jared Smith wrote:
>> On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 16:46 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
>>> I've started the following for release-note translation.
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_work_using_git
>>>
>>> Now the following commands do not work for me.
>>> make test
>>> make validate-ja-JP
>> Mizumoto-san, (I did say that correctly, right?)

Yes, you are correct, ????? (Smith-san) :-)

>>
>> Currently I'm only able to get it to build with the (non-Publican)
>> Fedora toolchain, by doing:
>>
>> make -f Makefile.old validate-xml-en_US
>>
>> That being said, you *should* be able to:
>>
>> make -f Makefile.old validate-xml-ja
>>
>> (Of course, that gives me an error I don't understand.)  Hopefully that
>> at least gets you started in the right direction until we can get this
>> building in Publican.
> 
> Do you think it would be worthwhile to rename as follows?
> 
>   Makefile     --> Makefile.publican
>   Makefile.old --> Makefile

make -f Makefile validate-xml-ja
This gave me the error, better than before.
http://fpaste.org/paste/7943

I will wait you guys do some magic for me again.

thanks
noriko

> 
> That would make the procedures correspond better with the current TQSG
> and maybe be less confusing.  I could add another Makefile rule that
> gives a detailed response if there's no "docs-common" found.
> 
> 



From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 03:07:45 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:07:45 -0400
Subject: Colophon
Message-ID: <1224644865.11885.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>

There is a bug in the xml2po program from gnome-doc-utils, as found in
Fedora 9 and earlier (including RHEL 5).  It prevents us from using
non-ASCII characters in parsed character data in DocBook, such as
people's names in the Colophon.  If we use non-ASCII, we cannot properly
validate the DocBook XML content.

There are several ways to solve this.  One of the easier solutions is to
no longer include the colophon in the actual release notes, but link to
it from the document.  However, this has the side effect of removing a
public thank-you to our wonderful translators and documentation
contributors.

What we've done instead is to comment out these names, *only* until we
work on the final release notes for GA.  At that point we will uncomment
the strings.  They will end up as "untranslated," but I (or someone in
Docs) will try to make the appropriate PO changes to copy them as
needed.  When we build the release notes, we will do it in Rawhide,
where xml2po is fixed.  The names will then show up properly in the
rendered Colophon section.

This problem will recur in earlier releases, though, until and unless
someone asks the gnome-doc-utils maintainers to backport the fix (if
possible) to gnome-doc-utils in RHEL 5 and Fedora 9.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From noriko at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 03:17:47 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:17:47 +1000
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <48FE7348.3020203@redhat.com>
References: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>	<1224593330.3590.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1224596948.25862.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<48FE7348.3020203@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <48FE9B5B.1000705@redhat.com>

Hi

I have started translation, so please do not make any POT/PO update 
otherwise conflict ;-)

thanks
noriko



From noriko at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 04:19:00 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:19:00 +1000
Subject: ko.po and new language
Message-ID: <48FEA9B4.7020607@redhat.com>

Hi Jared and Paul

Thank you so much adding new ko.po.
Does the Korean translator need to translate something for docs-common?

Any procedure to follow, if some language translator likes to fresh
start of release note translation?

cheers
noriko



From noriko at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 05:26:54 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:26:54 +1000
Subject: Readme?
Message-ID: <48FEB99E.8000900@redhat.com>

Hi

I can see 'Readme', 'Readme Burning ISOs' and 'Readme Live Image' in TX.
How can I get those PO files for translation?

cheers
noriko



From khashida at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 06:48:48 2008
From: khashida at redhat.com (Kiyoto James Hashida)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 02:48:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <48FE9B5B.1000705@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <407425158.2556661224658128736.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>

???????
??epel.repo ??????? GIT ???????????????????????
??????????????????????????
??

----- ??????? -----
From: "Noriko Mizumoto" <noriko at redhat.com>
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" <fedora-docs-list at redhat.com>, "Fedora Translation Project List" <fedora-trans-list at redhat.com>
????: 2008?10?22?, ??? ?? 1:17:47 GMT+10:00?????
??: Re: How to translate release-note

Hi

I have started translation, so please do not make any POT/PO update 
otherwise conflict ;-)

thanks
noriko

-- 
fedora-docs-list mailing list
fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
To unsubscribe: 
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list

-- 

Kiyoto (James) Hashida
Technical Translator 

Red Hat APAC
Level 4, 193 North Quay,
Brisbane  QLD. Australia 
Phone:+61-7-35148288
Mail:  khashida at redhat.com



From noriko at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 07:14:07 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:14:07 +1000
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <407425158.2556661224658128736.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <407425158.2556661224658128736.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <48FED2BF.7020406@redhat.com>

James,

Thanks for pick, it is my bad.
I should said "some translators" instead of "I". I just wanted to notify 
it Docs team. That is all. So the answer is 'no', for Japanese as you 
know no one start translation yet, but we are waiting for the 
translator's reply who worked for F9 rel-note.

noriko

Kiyoto James Hashida ????????:
> ???????
> ??epel.repo ??????? GIT ???????????????????????
> ??????????????????????????
> ??
> 
> ----- ??????? -----
> From: "Noriko Mizumoto" <noriko at redhat.com>
> To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" <fedora-docs-list at redhat.com>, "Fedora Translation Project List" <fedora-trans-list at redhat.com>
> ????: 2008?10?22?, ??? ?? 1:17:47 GMT+10:00?????
> ??: Re: How to translate release-note
> 
> Hi
> 
> I have started translation, so please do not make any POT/PO update 
> otherwise conflict ;-)
> 
> thanks
> noriko
> 



From piotrdrag at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 10:32:00 2008
From: piotrdrag at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?UGlvdHIgRHLEhWc=?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:32:00 +0200
Subject: Readme?
In-Reply-To: <48FEB99E.8000900@redhat.com>
References: <48FEB99E.8000900@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <48FF0120.6070600@gmail.com>

Noriko Mizumoto pisze:
> I can see 'Readme', 'Readme Burning ISOs' and 'Readme Live Image' in TX.
> How can I get those PO files for translation?
> 

PO files for those are here:

http://translate.fedoraproject.org/languages/pl/fedora-10 (Docs section 
on the bottom)

http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-readme#master
http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-readme-burning-isos#master
http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-readme-live-image#master

-- 
Piotr Dr?g
http://raven.pmail.pl



From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 13:21:43 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:21:43 +0000
Subject: Meeting today at 1900 UTC
Message-ID: <1224681703.11063.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I'll have to miss today's meeting -- sorry everyone.  I have a flight
scheduled at 1945 UTC and I'll be at an airport with no free
connectivity.  (I hate you, Washington/Dulles.)

But we *REALLY* need to pow-wow about ongoing L10n difficulties -- see
Noriko's very helpful messages to f-trans-list and f-docs-list -- and
how to solve them properly:

1.  How do we make fedora-doc-utils available for people to commit?
Should we backport changes from that repo to the old CVS/docs-common,
and let translators continue to use that?

2.  Do the influx of translators from Red Hat's translation community
(hopefully many more languages) have the ability to effectively add
support for their respective languages in our new modules?

3.  We need to update the TQSG with the appropriate guidance for
translators.

There may be other issues -- I haven't triaged all my email yet this
morning.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 13:38:50 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:38:50 +0000
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <48FE9B5B.1000705@redhat.com>
References: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>
	<1224593330.3590.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1224596948.25862.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<48FE7348.3020203@redhat.com>  <48FE9B5B.1000705@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1224682730.11063.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 13:17 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> Hi
> 
> I have started translation, so please do not make any POT/PO update 
> otherwise conflict ;-)

Oops, I hope the change I had to make last night didn't hurt your
translation.  I found that there were some XML files missing from the
POT content, and repaired that problem.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 13:42:48 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:42:48 -0400
Subject: ko.po and new language
In-Reply-To: <48FEA9B4.7020607@redhat.com>
References: <48FEA9B4.7020607@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1224682968.11063.21.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 14:19 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> Hi Jared and Paul
> 
> Thank you so much adding new ko.po.
> Does the Korean translator need to translate something for docs-common?
> 
> Any procedure to follow, if some language translator likes to fresh
> start of release note translation?

Noriko,

I'm glad you raised this issue.  We need to figure out a procedure that
will allow this process to continue.

* We have pledged not to require translators to learn a new SCM system
like git just to participate.
   * Translators can download existing POT and PO files through Tx.
   * Translators can submit PO files through Tx as well.

* The content of the docs-common system is *not* well localized into a
single "po/" folder with LINGUAS, docs-common.pot, etc.
   * In the past, we've given specific instructions in the TQSG on how
translators can create new common content by using CVS directly.
   * We don't want translators to have to learn git to continue doing
this.
   * We may want to backport the changes in our git repository of common
materials into CVS, and let translators continue to use that.

I've brought these issues up in a message to the Docs team this morning
in the hopes that people will meet during the day today (and at the
formal Docs team meeting) to resolve these issues quickly.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From valent.turkovic at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 14:06:13 2008
From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:06:13 +0200
Subject: Much more emphasis on Fedora users needed in wiki
In-Reply-To: <20081019004853.GB15384@salma.internal.frields.org>
References: <64b14b300810171037t4c1b79d8hff46c6423cbf96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<64b14b300810180953w604ddad8h98b0f9fdc6ae7424@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081019004853.GB15384@salma.internal.frields.org>
Message-ID: <64b14b300810220706r1880e639p44dd4e7477e5918b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 2:48 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 06:53:10PM +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>> I just posted a new howto on my blog.
>>
>> Bluetooth GPS Fedora howto:
>> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/bluetooth-gps-fedora-howto/
>>
>> Is there somewhere on Fedora wiki a place for it?
>
> You don't have to ask, Valent, it's a wiki.  Every user has a draft
> space under their username on the wiki.  For instance, mine is:
>
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields
>
> When I want to post something for people to edit, I use:
>
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/My_new_document
>
> If you want the solution to be globally searchable, you can use:
>
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Some_new_document
>

Thank you Paul,
I made new document on wiki:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Valent/Fedora_Bluetooth_GPS_How_To

Maybe I wasn't clear (english is not my primary language) but I wasn't
asking how to put page on the wiki (but still thank you very much for
explaining) but how to better organize Fedora wiki for Fedora users.

Have you looked at Gentoo wiki? Have you looked at Fedora Solved?

That is what I'm talking about.

Let's make Fedora wiki better for Fedora users with a HowTo section on
the front page that makes use of best howtos currently in drafts. When
the "wiki infrastructure" is up I guess that other Fedora contributors
will join and add much more Fedora howtos and guides.


I hope others join and help out with editing this page because I can't
make mediawiki do what I want :(

I have an issue with my draft
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Valent/Fedora_Bluetooth_GPS_How_To

Especially the this part:

rfcomm0 {
# Automatically bind the device at startup
bind yes;

# Bluetooth address of the device
device 00:12:EE:55:00:FF;

# RFCOMM channel for the connection
channel 1;

# Description of the connection
comment "GPS Bluetooth dongle";
}


Mediawiki display is completely different, and if I put nowiki tag
then it is all in one line :(

Thank you Paul once more!

Valent from Croatia.

-- 
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic



From david at gnsa.us  Wed Oct 22 14:14:03 2008
From: david at gnsa.us (David Nalley)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:14:03 -0400
Subject: Much more emphasis on Fedora users needed in wiki
In-Reply-To: <64b14b300810220706r1880e639p44dd4e7477e5918b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <64b14b300810171037t4c1b79d8hff46c6423cbf96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<64b14b300810180953w604ddad8h98b0f9fdc6ae7424@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081019004853.GB15384@salma.internal.frields.org>
	<64b14b300810220706r1880e639p44dd4e7477e5918b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0810220714j722fdedcy499e681052633fd7@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I have an issue with my draft
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Valent/Fedora_Bluetooth_GPS_How_To
>
> Especially the this part:
>
> rfcomm0 {
> # Automatically bind the device at startup
> bind yes;
>
> # Bluetooth address of the device
> device 00:12:EE:55:00:FF;
>
> # RFCOMM channel for the connection
> channel 1;
>
> # Description of the connection
> comment "GPS Bluetooth dongle";
> }
>
>
> Mediawiki display is completely different, and if I put nowiki tag
> then it is all in one line :(
>

What you want to do is use the <pre></pre> tags around that block to
tell Mediawiki not to wikify the text.



From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 13:44:38 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:44:38 +0000
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>
References: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1224683078.11063.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 16:46 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> Hi Paul and Karsten
> 
> I've started the following for release-note translation.
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_work_using_git
> 
> Now the following commands do not work for me.
> make test
> make validate-ja-JP

We use 'make validate-xml-ja-JP' in this toolchain.  I helped Noriko
with this last night but wanted to make sure the solution was listed
here too. :-)

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 14:23:09 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:23:09 +0000
Subject: Much more emphasis on Fedora users needed in wiki
In-Reply-To: <64b14b300810220706r1880e639p44dd4e7477e5918b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <64b14b300810171037t4c1b79d8hff46c6423cbf96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<64b14b300810180953w604ddad8h98b0f9fdc6ae7424@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081019004853.GB15384@salma.internal.frields.org>
	<64b14b300810220706r1880e639p44dd4e7477e5918b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1224685389.11063.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 16:06 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 2:48 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 06:53:10PM +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> >> I just posted a new howto on my blog.
> >>
> >> Bluetooth GPS Fedora howto:
> >> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/bluetooth-gps-fedora-howto/
> >>
> >> Is there somewhere on Fedora wiki a place for it?
> >
> > You don't have to ask, Valent, it's a wiki.  Every user has a draft
> > space under their username on the wiki.  For instance, mine is:
> >
> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields
> >
> > When I want to post something for people to edit, I use:
> >
> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/My_new_document
> >
> > If you want the solution to be globally searchable, you can use:
> >
> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Some_new_document
> >
> 
> Thank you Paul,
> I made new document on wiki:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Valent/Fedora_Bluetooth_GPS_How_To
> 
> Maybe I wasn't clear (english is not my primary language) but I wasn't
> asking how to put page on the wiki (but still thank you very much for
> explaining) but how to better organize Fedora wiki for Fedora users.
> 
> Have you looked at Gentoo wiki? Have you looked at Fedora Solved?
> 
> That is what I'm talking about.
> 
> Let's make Fedora wiki better for Fedora users with a HowTo section on
> the front page that makes use of best howtos currently in drafts. When
> the "wiki infrastructure" is up I guess that other Fedora contributors
> will join and add much more Fedora howtos and guides.

I think that's entirely the *wrong* way to use the wiki.  Wikipedia
doesn't organize things in hierarchies either.  Instead, we should title
all pages in ways that allow the "Search" feature to work properly, like
this:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=bluetooth&go=Go 

Notice how your page comes up, because you named it properly.  *That's*
how the wiki should work, not by arbitrary hierarchies.

How-to articles can also be categorized so users can see a line up of
pages like this:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Draft_Documentation 
...which the wiki does *automatically*.

> I hope others join and help out with editing this page because I can't
> make mediawiki do what I want :(
> 
> I have an issue with my draft
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Valent/Fedora_Bluetooth_GPS_How_To
> 
> Especially the this part:
> 
> rfcomm0 {
> # Automatically bind the device at startup
> bind yes;
> 
> # Bluetooth address of the device
> device 00:12:EE:55:00:FF;
> 
> # RFCOMM channel for the connection
> channel 1;
> 
> # Description of the connection
> comment "GPS Bluetooth dongle";
> }
> 
> 
> Mediawiki display is completely different, and if I put nowiki tag
> then it is all in one line :(

You just need to read the following page, and look at other well-done
pages' source and copy as needed.  Which is the same advice we give to
anyone who wants to edit the wiki:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Editing 

and especially:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Editing#Marking_Technical_Terms

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From trac at fedorahosted.org  Wed Oct 22 14:24:33 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:24:33 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #8: Upgrade an Existing System -
 Chapter 8
In-Reply-To: <056.971123e0bc40100bb1f938f387a40bd7@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.971123e0bc40100bb1f938f387a40bd7@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.3f11686d5a270a981cb417f2a1b99add@fedorahosted.org>

#8: Upgrade an Existing System - Chapter 8
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  chr1sjohnson
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new         
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready    
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0      
Resolution:           |    Keywords:              
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by chr1sjohnson):

  * summary:  Chapter 8 update => Upgrade an Existing System - Chapter 8

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/8#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Wed Oct 22 14:25:18 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:25:18 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #7: Welcome Dialog - Chapter 7
 Update
In-Reply-To: <056.1a4904dc1a22d8d02140ce171d76c8bd@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.1a4904dc1a22d8d02140ce171d76c8bd@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.291db14756825c99feb47b886c38d75e@fedorahosted.org>

#7: Welcome Dialog - Chapter 7 Update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  chr1sjohnson
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new         
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready    
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0      
Resolution:           |    Keywords:              
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by chr1sjohnson):

  * summary:  Chapter 7 update => Welcome Dialog - Chapter 7 Update

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/7#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Wed Oct 22 14:25:48 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:25:48 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #8: Upgrade an Existing System -
 Chapter 8 Update
In-Reply-To: <056.971123e0bc40100bb1f938f387a40bd7@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.971123e0bc40100bb1f938f387a40bd7@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.d2c14d03f56c1edb4bb13ae54ad9523e@fedorahosted.org>

#8: Upgrade an Existing System - Chapter 8 Update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  chr1sjohnson
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new         
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready    
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0      
Resolution:           |    Keywords:              
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by chr1sjohnson):

  * summary:  Upgrade an Existing System - Chapter 8 => Upgrade an Existing
              System - Chapter 8 Update

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/8#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Wed Oct 22 14:48:01 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:48:01 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #9: Network Configuration - Chapter
 9 update
In-Reply-To: <056.a9fe8c36b0e2d91e0b922e896c8f6d0c@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.a9fe8c36b0e2d91e0b922e896c8f6d0c@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.c69faa119f9fdeaf5bba37ae47b27a17@fedorahosted.org>

#9: Network Configuration - Chapter 9 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by soulspecter):

  * owner:  soulspecter => jsmith

Comment:

 Reassigning to jsmith for review...

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/9#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Wed Oct 22 14:52:43 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:52:43 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #13: Chapter 13 update
In-Reply-To: <056.6958a9b232a4dc75139e53450d5a5f12@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.6958a9b232a4dc75139e53450d5a5f12@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.a94f6f0e864341b3a5d4ad7d1e6d56eb@fedorahosted.org>

#13: Chapter 13 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  nguyenj 
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by soulspecter):

  * owner:  quaid => nguyenj

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/13#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Wed Oct 22 14:53:49 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:53:49 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #12: Disk Partitioning - Chapter 12
 update
In-Reply-To: <056.ad7acacaf1fd9aa8fd19bacf24bc2c7d@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.ad7acacaf1fd9aa8fd19bacf24bc2c7d@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.daf1e4b6320a09836b5e95d2774de1d5@fedorahosted.org>

#12: Disk Partitioning - Chapter 12 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  ericklemon
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new       
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready  
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0    
Resolution:           |    Keywords:            
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by soulspecter):

  * owner:  quaid => ericklemon
  * summary:  Chapter 12 update => Disk Partitioning - Chapter 12 update

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/12#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Wed Oct 22 15:13:24 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:13:24 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #14: Software Selection - Chapter
 14 update
In-Reply-To: <056.236d253e855c063db1376539cbae1587@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.236d253e855c063db1376539cbae1587@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.98e6434a15f7f8a0adbb1049b1be30d9@fedorahosted.org>

#14: Software Selection - Chapter 14 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new        
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready   
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0     
Resolution:           |    Keywords:             
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by soulspecter):

  * owner:  quaid => soulspecter
  * summary:  Chapter 14 update => Software Selection - Chapter 14 update

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/14#comment:1>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 16:04:30 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:04:30 -0700
Subject: meeting today at 1900 UTC
Message-ID: <1224691470.21380.255.camel@calliope.phig.org>

Just a reminder that we'll be meeting today as usual at 1900 UTC on
#fedora-meeting.

Agenda:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting

-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 17:06:20 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:06:20 -0700
Subject: Meeting today at 1900 UTC
In-Reply-To: <1224681703.11063.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1224681703.11063.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1224695180.21380.262.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 13:21 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:

> But we *REALLY* need to pow-wow about ongoing L10n difficulties -- see
> Noriko's very helpful messages to f-trans-list and f-docs-list -- and
> how to solve them properly:
> 
> 1.  How do we make fedora-doc-utils available for people to commit?
> Should we backport changes from that repo to the old CVS/docs-common,
> and let translators continue to use that?

Since we have the 'cvsl10n' group already well populated, that is a good
way to go.

Is anyone available today to port the changes from the fedora-doc-utils
git repo back to the CVS module?

> 2.  Do the influx of translators from Red Hat's translation community
> (hopefully many more languages) have the ability to effectively add
> support for their respective languages in our new modules?

There are now two aspects:

1. Updates to docs-common
2. New languages in LINGUAS

For the first, what about opening up docs-common to cvsl10n so people
can just check in the files they need to?

For the second, the only thing I can think of is to send a request for
each language, and a git committer can make the change.

> 3.  We need to update the TQSG with the appropriate guidance for
> translators.

OK, once we know what that is.

> There may be other issues -- I haven't triaged all my email yet this
> morning.

I'm not seeing anything else.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From elizabeth at eawestwriting.com  Wed Oct 22 15:09:18 2008
From: elizabeth at eawestwriting.com (Elizabeth Ann West)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:09:18 -0400
Subject: Tips for Stronger Writing
Message-ID: <1224688158.15732.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hello All,

As I am working on editing the install-guide, I had a great idea for a
series through the docs-list. If people are interested, I would be happy
to start condensing my editing techniques into small tidbits
documentation writers can learn from and apply to any writing pieces,
making them stronger. I can try to have a new Tips for Stronger Writing
each week, if you all find them helpful. Here is the first one titled
"Trim the That." Please let me know how you like it, if it is easy to
understand, and if you would like me to continue the series.

Always Smiling,
Elizabeth Ann West

Trim the That

The word "that" is used in the English language most often for indirect
discourse,
an emphasis on a certain entity we are speaking about to distinguish it
from others. 
Writers easily fall into the trap of using "that"
when it does not enhance or add to the message for the reader. 

Compare:

This directory contains a folder for each architecture supported by that
release of Fedora.

This CD holds a live image that you can use to try Fedora.

The first sentence uses the word "that" correctly, as it is
distinguishing there are other releases of Fedora, 
and we are referring to a specific release. The second sentence has the
word "that" as just an extra word. Is there more than
one live image on the disc? 

Here's a good way to test, try taking "that" out and see if the sentence
still makes sense.

This directory contains a folder for each architecture supported by
release of Fedora. 

Still work? No. So "that" must remain.

This CD holds a live image you can use to try Fedora. 

Hey, the sentence still makes sense; without that extra word, the reader
is left with a crystal clear message. By the way, the former sentence is
another case of where "that" is needed.

So try taking a look over your next piece of writing and see if you can
trim the "that." :)



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 20:41:38 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:41:38 -0700
Subject: plan for working with release notes
Message-ID: <1224708098.21380.278.camel@calliope.phig.org>

Does this sound like something we can ask the translators to do?

        1. Docs team creates all the needed files in
        fedora-doc-utils/common/ for each language currently in
        release-notes/po/.
        
        2. Translators clone f-d-u to be 'docs-common' locally, next to
        the release-notes module:
        
        git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes
        git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-doc-utils
        docs-common
        
        3. If their language is not there, they create the PO file and
        the common files in ./docs-common/common by running
        './docs-common/common $LANG'.
        
        4. Translators submit PO file changes via Transifex.
        
        5. Translators update the LINGUA file via Transifex.
        
        6. Translators submit any translations for the f-d-u/common/
        files via a new ticket in
        https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes.
        
        7. Relnotes team submits the translated common files to git
        manually.
        
This resolves the questions raised by Paul and Noriko:

* We create the per-language common files; translators submit
translations via Trac ticket for manual inclusion by relnotes team.

* Translators can enable their language in LINGUAS via Transifex; with
the files in f-d-u/common to match r-n/po, that enabling should work.

* Once we are certain of the steps, we can update the TQSG.

My questions now are:

* For the files in f-d-u/common, what -$LANG format should we be using?
For example, there is a po/de.po file, and a common/*-de_DE.xml.

* I added *ko.xml to f-d-u/common/.  How do I know if there are any
others missing?  Is it OK to expect translators to create those locally,
which makes their build work, and submit them to Docs?

-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From piotrdrag at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 20:48:43 2008
From: piotrdrag at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?UGlvdHIgRHLEhWc=?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:48:43 +0200
Subject: Meeting today at 1900 UTC
In-Reply-To: <1224695180.21380.262.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1224681703.11063.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1224695180.21380.262.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <48FF91AB.9000908@gmail.com>

Karsten 'quaid' Wade pisze:
> 2. New languages in LINGUAS
> 
> For the second, the only thing I can think of is to send a request for
> each language, and a git committer can make the change.
> 

Updated LINGUAS can be committed using Transifex without any problems.

-- 
Piotr Dr?g
http://raven.pmail.pl



From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net  Wed Oct 22 20:53:35 2008
From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:53:35 -0400
Subject: plan for working with release notes
In-Reply-To: <1224708098.21380.278.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1224708098.21380.278.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1224708815.19516.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 13:41 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> Does this sound like something we can ask the translators to do?
> 
>         1. Docs team creates all the needed files in
>         fedora-doc-utils/common/ for each language currently in
>         release-notes/po/.
>         
>         2. Translators clone f-d-u to be 'docs-common' locally, next to
>         the release-notes module:
>         
>         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes
>         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-doc-utils
>         docs-common

I thought one of the fundamental points was that we weren't going to
force the translators to learn yet another SCM system.  We should offer
alternatives (open a ticket with the info and one of us will do it for
them) for the steps that would otherwise require tools like git.
        
>         3. If their language is not there, they create the PO file and
>         the common files in ./docs-common/common by running
>         './docs-common/common $LANG'.
>         
>         4. Translators submit PO file changes via Transifex.
>         
>         5. Translators update the LINGUA file via Transifex.

Since this is a rare occurance (at least, I think it is)... we should
point out that we'd be willing to create the common files for them if
they don't want to install git.

>         6. Translators submit any translations for the f-d-u/common/
>         files via a new ticket in
>         https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes.
>         
>         7. Relnotes team submits the translated common files to git
>         manually.

Everything else above looks good to me.

> My questions now are:
> 
> * For the files in f-d-u/common, what -$LANG format should we be using?
> For example, there is a po/de.po file, and a common/*-de_DE.xml.

No clue... all I know is that some languages fall back... so for
example, a en_US might fall back to en.

> * I added *ko.xml to f-d-u/common/.  How do I know if there are any
> others missing?  Is it OK to expect translators to create those locally,
> which makes their build work, and submit them to Docs?

I don't know.  FYI, the Korean language stuff was done just last night.
It's probably worth documenting what needs to be done to create a new
language, so that people like myself who are inexperience with the
translation process have a canonical source to know what to do.

-Jared



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 21:30:26 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:30:26 -0700
Subject: plan for working with release notes
In-Reply-To: <1224708815.19516.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1224708098.21380.278.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224708815.19516.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1224711026.21380.286.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 16:53 -0400, Jared Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 13:41 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> > Does this sound like something we can ask the translators to do?
> > 
> >         1. Docs team creates all the needed files in
> >         fedora-doc-utils/common/ for each language currently in
> >         release-notes/po/.
> >         
> >         2. Translators clone f-d-u to be 'docs-common' locally, next to
> >         the release-notes module:
> >         
> >         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes
> >         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-doc-utils
> >         docs-common
> 
> I thought one of the fundamental points was that we weren't going to
> force the translators to learn yet another SCM system.  We should offer
> alternatives (open a ticket with the info and one of us will do it for
> them) for the steps that would otherwise require tools like git.

Yes, that is a fundamental goal, and currently they don't need to use
*any* SCM to submit translations.  Translators can download the POT file
and submit the PO file via l10n.fedoraproject.org.  But for those who
want to build locally to check their work, they need a working
toolchain.

This is worth clarifying in updates to TQSG -- these are actions for
people who want to build locally.

I think a default action for someone who is stuck in any way is to open
a Trac ticket.

> >         3. If their language is not there, they create the PO file and
> >         the common files in ./docs-common/common by running
> >         './docs-common/common $LANG'.
> >         
> >         4. Translators submit PO file changes via Transifex.
> >         
> >         5. Translators update the LINGUA file via Transifex.
> 
> Since this is a rare occurance (at least, I think it is)... we should
> point out that we'd be willing to create the common files for them if
> they don't want to install git.

Since creating the actual files in the repository requires commit
access, we might just want to simplify.  Thus step 3 becomes:

        3. If their language is not there, they can open a Trac ticket
        to get it included.  In the meantime, if they are feeling up to
        it, they can do this, substituting their language code for
        $LANG:
        
        cd docs-common/common
        ./new-legal-files.sh $LANG

> >         6. Translators submit any translations for the f-d-u/common/
> >         files via a new ticket in
> >         https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes.
> >         
> >         7. Relnotes team submits the translated common files to git
> >         manually.
> 
> Everything else above looks good to me.
> 
> > My questions now are:
> > 
> > * For the files in f-d-u/common, what -$LANG format should we be using?
> > For example, there is a po/de.po file, and a common/*-de_DE.xml.
> 
> No clue... all I know is that some languages fall back... so for
> example, a en_US might fall back to en.

Interesting.  It appears that there is a parity right now between the
po/ folder and the common/ folder, especially since I merged the Korean
files.

> > * I added *ko.xml to f-d-u/common/.  How do I know if there are any
> > others missing?  Is it OK to expect translators to create those locally,
> > which makes their build work, and submit them to Docs?
> 
> I don't know.  FYI, the Korean language stuff was done just last night.
> It's probably worth documenting what needs to be done to create a new
> language, so that people like myself who are inexperience with the
> translation process have a canonical source to know what to do.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Adding_languages_to_fedora-doc-utils

Not much for now, but keep on adding there. :)

Notice I added it to a new category that we can populate with more
pages:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation_tools
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 21:31:58 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:31:58 -0700
Subject: Meeting today at 1900 UTC
In-Reply-To: <48FF91AB.9000908@gmail.com>
References: <1224681703.11063.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1224695180.21380.262.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<48FF91AB.9000908@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1224711118.21380.289.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 22:48 +0200, Piotr Dr?g wrote:
> Karsten 'quaid' Wade pisze:
> > 2. New languages in LINGUAS
> > 
> > For the second, the only thing I can think of is to send a request for
> > each language, and a git committer can make the change.
> > 
> 
> Updated LINGUAS can be committed using Transifex without any problems.

OK, got that in the current plan.

Can you take a look at that plan and let us know if you think it might
work?  I just sent an update to fedora-docs-list.

thx - Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 21:38:17 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:38:17 -0700
Subject: Tips for Stronger Writing
In-Reply-To: <1224688158.15732.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1224688158.15732.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1224711497.21380.294.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 11:09 -0400, Elizabeth Ann West wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> As I am working on editing the install-guide, I had a great idea for a
> series through the docs-list. If people are interested, I would be happy
> to start condensing my editing techniques into small tidbits
> documentation writers can learn from and apply to any writing pieces,
> making them stronger. I can try to have a new Tips for Stronger Writing
> each week, if you all find them helpful. Here is the first one titled
> "Trim the That." Please let me know how you like it, if it is easy to
> understand, and if you would like me to continue the series.

+10

Also, catch me on IRC and let's figure out a good place to put these on
the wiki.  I'm thinking we want to mutate the style guide a bit, adding
a new [[Category:Style guide]] so we can add content easily without
worrying about structure too much.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From trac at fedorahosted.org  Wed Oct 22 21:50:05 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:50:05 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
In-Reply-To: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.a88d8fbb9d10aa955ecd02c5eb383955@fedorahosted.org>

#3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid        |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  enhancement  |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content      |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:               |    Keywords:          
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
Changes (by eawest):

  * owner:  eawest => jsmith
  * priority:  major => minor
  * type:  task => enhancement

Comment:

 Finished word smithing. Since chapter is so long, made changes, uploaded
 that file, along with companion text file with all of the changes made.
 Please read the bottom of comments file, only change not made but raised
 issue:

 QUESTION About Continuity Between Pages 7 and 8:
 I notice in the code for the document, there is a notice that there are no
 USB Live images for PPC (Apples correct?) computers but it is commented
 out. On page 8, it clearly states you can use a Linux or Windows system to
 make a Live Image. My concern is that throughout this entire chapter so
 far, PPC has been included. Without that notice, all of a sudden PPC is
 dropped off the planet, without any explanation why? I think it is worth
 mentioning the commented out notice, or change "You can use either a
 Windows or Linux system to make the bootable USB media." to read ONLY
 instead of either.

 Also, no instructions for someone running a Linux machine, what if someone
 is switching from Ubuntu to Fedora, but doesn't know how to make a Live
 image on the USB?

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/3#comment:10>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From noriko at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 22:51:12 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 08:51:12 +1000
Subject: Readme?
In-Reply-To: <48FF0120.6070600@gmail.com>
References: <48FEB99E.8000900@redhat.com> <48FF0120.6070600@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48FFAE60.7040503@redhat.com>

Piotr Dr?g ????????:
> Noriko Mizumoto pisze:
>> I can see 'Readme', 'Readme Burning ISOs' and 'Readme Live Image' in TX.
>> How can I get those PO files for translation?
>>
> 
> PO files for those are here:
> 
> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/languages/pl/fedora-10 (Docs section 
> on the bottom)
> 
> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-readme#master
> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-readme-burning-isos#master
> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-readme-live-image#master
> 
Perfect!!  \^o^/~~




From noriko at redhat.com  Wed Oct 22 23:20:29 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:20:29 +1000
Subject: How to translate release-note
In-Reply-To: <1224682730.11063.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <48FD7ABE.3030006@redhat.com>	<1224593330.3590.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1224596948.25862.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<48FE7348.3020203@redhat.com>
	<48FE9B5B.1000705@redhat.com>
	<1224682730.11063.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <48FFB53D.6040307@redhat.com>

Paul W. Frields ????????:
> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 13:17 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I have started translation, so please do not make any POT/PO update 
>> otherwise conflict ;-)
> 
> Oops, I hope the change I had to make last night didn't hurt your
> translation.  I found that there were some XML files missing from the
> POT content, and repaired that problem.

Np. actually this was good practice to remind myself so that the message 
was sent. Thank you so much fixing the problem.

> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --
> Fedora-trans-list mailing list
> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list



From kam at kamsalisbury.com  Thu Oct 23 00:56:00 2008
From: kam at kamsalisbury.com (Kam)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:56:00 -0400
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
Message-ID: <48ffcbe0.161e640a.3d02.ffff8646@mx.google.com>




-----Original Message-----

From:  "Fedora Installation Guide" <trac at fedorahosted.org>
Subj:  Re: [Fedora Installation Guide] #3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
Date:  Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:50 pm
Size:  1K
To:  
cc:  fedora-docs-list at redhat.com

#3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid        |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  enhancement  |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content      |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:               |    Keywords:          
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
Changes (by eawest):

  * owner:  eawest => jsmith
  * priority:  major => minor
  * type:  task => enhancement

Comment:

 Finished word smithing. Since chapter is so long, made changes, uploaded
 that file, along with companion text file with all of the changes made.
 Please read the bottom of comments file, only change not made but raised
 issue:

 QUESTION About Continuity Between Pages 7 and 8:
 I notice in the code for the document, there is a notice that there are no
 USB Live images for PPC (Apples correct?) computers but it is commented
 out. On page 8, it clearly states you can use a Linux or Windows system to
 make a Live Image. My concern is that throughout this entire chapter so
 far, PPC has been included. Without that notice, all of a sudden PPC is
 dropped off the planet, without any explanation why? I think it is worth
 mentioning the commented out notice, or change "You can use either a
 Windows or Linux system to make the bootable USB media." to read ONLY
 instead of either.

 Also, no instructions for someone running a Linux machine, what if someone
 is switching from Ubuntu to Fedora, but doesn't know how to make a Live
 image on the USB?


Saying "only" is good since a PPC chip live image  is not currently supported.  (And not planned to the best of my knowledge)

For how to make live usb images, you refer to the section "Live" where that content already resides?

--
Kam
http://kamsalisbury.com
GPG key: FAF1751E



From noriko at redhat.com  Thu Oct 23 01:27:00 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:27:00 +1000
Subject: plan for working with release notes
In-Reply-To: <1224711026.21380.286.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1224708098.21380.278.camel@calliope.phig.org>	<1224708815.19516.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1224711026.21380.286.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <48FFD2E4.9090200@redhat.com>

Karsten 'quaid' Wade ????????:
> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 16:53 -0400, Jared Smith wrote:
>> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 13:41 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
>>> Does this sound like something we can ask the translators to do?
>>>
>>>         1. Docs team creates all the needed files in
>>>         fedora-doc-utils/common/ for each language currently in
>>>         release-notes/po/.
>>>         
>>>         2. Translators clone f-d-u to be 'docs-common' locally, next to
>>>         the release-notes module:
>>>         
>>>         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes
>>>         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-doc-utils
>>>         docs-common
>> I thought one of the fundamental points was that we weren't going to
>> force the translators to learn yet another SCM system.  We should offer
>> alternatives (open a ticket with the info and one of us will do it for
>> them) for the steps that would otherwise require tools like git.
> 
> Yes, that is a fundamental goal, and currently they don't need to use
> *any* SCM to submit translations.  Translators can download the POT file
> and submit the PO file via l10n.fedoraproject.org.  But for those who
> want to build locally to check their work, they need a working
> toolchain.
> 
> This is worth clarifying in updates to TQSG -- these are actions for
> people who want to build locally.

Since it seems natural that many translators wish for the capability of
building for proofreading purpose, this will be must to include.

Or, when committed, some mechanism automatically builds them and
publishes somewhere as draft, translators may not need to have git
installed for proofreading purpose.

> 
> I think a default action for someone who is stuck in any way is to open
> a Trac ticket.

Good idea. This can be added L10N FAQ later.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/FAQ

> 
>>>         3. If their language is not there, they create the PO file and
>>>         the common files in ./docs-common/common by running
>>>         './docs-common/common $LANG'.
>>>         
>>>         4. Translators submit PO file changes via Transifex.
>>>         
>>>         5. Translators update the LINGUA file via Transifex.
>> Since this is a rare occurance (at least, I think it is)... we should
>> point out that we'd be willing to create the common files for them if
>> they don't want to install git.
> 
> Since creating the actual files in the repository requires commit
> access, we might just want to simplify.  Thus step 3 becomes:
> 
>         3. If their language is not there, they can open a Trac ticket
>         to get it included.  In the meantime, if they are feeling up to
>         it, they can do this, substituting their language code for
>         $LANG:
>         
>         cd docs-common/common
>         ./new-legal-files.sh $LANG
> 
>>>         6. Translators submit any translations for the f-d-u/common/
>>>         files via a new ticket in
>>>         https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes.
>>>         
>>>         7. Relnotes team submits the translated common files to git
>>>         manually.
>> Everything else above looks good to me.
>>
>>> My questions now are:
>>>
>>> * For the files in f-d-u/common, what -$LANG format should we be using?
>>> For example, there is a po/de.po file, and a common/*-de_DE.xml.
>> No clue... all I know is that some languages fall back... so for
>> example, a en_US might fall back to en.
> 
> Interesting.  It appears that there is a parity right now between the
> po/ folder and the common/ folder, especially since I merged the Korean
> files.

We are expected to change our language code to such as "ja-JP" due to
Publican not accepting "_" underscore, no?
My memory is bad.

> 
>>> * I added *ko.xml to f-d-u/common/.  How do I know if there are any
>>> others missing?  Is it OK to expect translators to create those locally,
>>> which makes their build work, and submit them to Docs?
>> I don't know.  FYI, the Korean language stuff was done just last night.
>> It's probably worth documenting what needs to be done to create a new
>> language, so that people like myself who are inexperience with the
>> translation process have a canonical source to know what to do.
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Adding_languages_to_fedora-doc-utils

>From individual translator's view, even if ko.xml is missing, as far as
release-note-ja is buildable then that does not cause any problem for me
to perform proofreading. However sometime I like to help other languages
translators, so eventually all of other languages xml should be
available to pick up somewhere.

noriko
> 
> Not much for now, but keep on adding there. :)
> 
> Notice I added it to a new category that we can populate with more
> pages:
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation_tools
> 



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 01:22:02 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:22:02 -0400
Subject: plan for working with release notes
In-Reply-To: <1224711026.21380.286.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1224708098.21380.278.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224708815.19516.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1224711026.21380.286.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1224724922.7227.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 14:30 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 16:53 -0400, Jared Smith wrote:
> > On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 13:41 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> > > Does this sound like something we can ask the translators to do?
> > > 
> > >         1. Docs team creates all the needed files in
> > >         fedora-doc-utils/common/ for each language currently in
> > >         release-notes/po/.
> > >         
> > >         2. Translators clone f-d-u to be 'docs-common' locally, next to
> > >         the release-notes module:
> > >         
> > >         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes
> > >         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-doc-utils
> > >         docs-common
> > 
> > I thought one of the fundamental points was that we weren't going to
> > force the translators to learn yet another SCM system.  We should offer
> > alternatives (open a ticket with the info and one of us will do it for
> > them) for the steps that would otherwise require tools like git.
> 
> Yes, that is a fundamental goal, and currently they don't need to use
> *any* SCM to submit translations.  Translators can download the POT file
> and submit the PO file via l10n.fedoraproject.org.  But for those who
> want to build locally to check their work, they need a working
> toolchain.
> 
> This is worth clarifying in updates to TQSG -- these are actions for
> people who want to build locally.
> 
> I think a default action for someone who is stuck in any way is to open
> a Trac ticket.

And there's no doubt, with email triggering to the f-docs-l, that people
will see and address problems quickly that way.

> > >         3. If their language is not there, they create the PO file and
> > >         the common files in ./docs-common/common by running
> > >         './docs-common/common $LANG'.
> > >         
> > >         4. Translators submit PO file changes via Transifex.
> > >         
> > >         5. Translators update the LINGUA file via Transifex.
> > 
> > Since this is a rare occurance (at least, I think it is)... we should
> > point out that we'd be willing to create the common files for them if
> > they don't want to install git.
> 
> Since creating the actual files in the repository requires commit
> access, we might just want to simplify.  Thus step 3 becomes:
> 
>         3. If their language is not there, they can open a Trac ticket
>         to get it included.  In the meantime, if they are feeling up to
>         it, they can do this, substituting their language code for
>         $LANG:
>         
>         cd docs-common/common
>         ./new-legal-files.sh $LANG
> 
> > >         6. Translators submit any translations for the f-d-u/common/
> > >         files via a new ticket in
> > >         https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes.
> > >         
> > >         7. Relnotes team submits the translated common files to git
> > >         manually.
> > 
> > Everything else above looks good to me.
> > 
> > > My questions now are:
> > > 
> > > * For the files in f-d-u/common, what -$LANG format should we be using?
> > > For example, there is a po/de.po file, and a common/*-de_DE.xml.
> > 
> > No clue... all I know is that some languages fall back... so for
> > example, a en_US might fall back to en.
> 
> Interesting.  It appears that there is a parity right now between the
> po/ folder and the common/ folder, especially since I merged the Korean
> files.

I believe most translators are using something like "xx" and not "xx_YY"
but there are specific exceptions, like zh_CN and zh_TW, and pt and
pt_BR.

> > > * I added *ko.xml to f-d-u/common/.  How do I know if there are any
> > > others missing?  Is it OK to expect translators to create those locally,
> > > which makes their build work, and submit them to Docs?
> > 
> > I don't know.  FYI, the Korean language stuff was done just last night.
> > It's probably worth documenting what needs to be done to create a new
> > language, so that people like myself who are inexperience with the
> > translation process have a canonical source to know what to do.
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Adding_languages_to_fedora-doc-utils
> 
> Not much for now, but keep on adding there. :)

OK, here's the one place where I have to dissent.  We should simply fix
the TQSG and republish it post-haste, not duplicate content (or worse,
create confusion as to where the right answer lies.)

> Notice I added it to a new category that we can populate with more
> pages:
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation_tools

Possibly aside from the objection above, this is totally cool!

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 01:39:29 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:39:29 -0400
Subject: plan for working with release notes
In-Reply-To: <48FFD2E4.9090200@redhat.com>
References: <1224708098.21380.278.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224708815.19516.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1224711026.21380.286.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<48FFD2E4.9090200@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1224725969.7227.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 11:27 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> Karsten 'quaid' Wade ????????:
> > On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 16:53 -0400, Jared Smith wrote:
> >> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 13:41 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> >>> Does this sound like something we can ask the translators to do?
> >>>
> >>>         1. Docs team creates all the needed files in
> >>>         fedora-doc-utils/common/ for each language currently in
> >>>         release-notes/po/.
> >>>         
> >>>         2. Translators clone f-d-u to be 'docs-common' locally, next to
> >>>         the release-notes module:
> >>>         
> >>>         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes
> >>>         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-doc-utils
> >>>         docs-common
> >> I thought one of the fundamental points was that we weren't going to
> >> force the translators to learn yet another SCM system.  We should offer
> >> alternatives (open a ticket with the info and one of us will do it for
> >> them) for the steps that would otherwise require tools like git.
> > 
> > Yes, that is a fundamental goal, and currently they don't need to use
> > *any* SCM to submit translations.  Translators can download the POT file
> > and submit the PO file via l10n.fedoraproject.org.  But for those who
> > want to build locally to check their work, they need a working
> > toolchain.
> > 
> > This is worth clarifying in updates to TQSG -- these are actions for
> > people who want to build locally.
> 
> Since it seems natural that many translators wish for the capability of
> building for proofreading purpose, this will be must to include.
> 
> Or, when committed, some mechanism automatically builds them and
> publishes somewhere as draft, translators may not need to have git
> installed for proofreading purpose.

What if we were to fix the TQSG to include information on how to:

1. check out the "new" docs-common,

2. add new language support by running a couple commands and translating
a single small POT => PO file (in other words, exactly as before), and

3. file a Trac ticket with the appropriate additions?

> >>> * For the files in f-d-u/common, what -$LANG format should we be using?
> >>> For example, there is a po/de.po file, and a common/*-de_DE.xml.
> >> No clue... all I know is that some languages fall back... so for
> >> example, a en_US might fall back to en.
> > 
> > Interesting.  It appears that there is a parity right now between the
> > po/ folder and the common/ folder, especially since I merged the Korean
> > files.
> 
> We are expected to change our language code to such as "ja-JP" due to
> Publican not accepting "_" underscore, no?
> My memory is bad.

The Fedora docs toolchain won't mind either format, so translators can
do as they like, really.

> >>> * I added *ko.xml to f-d-u/common/.  How do I know if there are any
> >>> others missing?  Is it OK to expect translators to create those locally,
> >>> which makes their build work, and submit them to Docs?
> >> I don't know.  FYI, the Korean language stuff was done just last night.
> >> It's probably worth documenting what needs to be done to create a new
> >> language, so that people like myself who are inexperience with the
> >> translation process have a canonical source to know what to do.
> > 
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Adding_languages_to_fedora-doc-utils
> 
> >From individual translator's view, even if ko.xml is missing, as far as
> release-note-ja is buildable then that does not cause any problem for me
> to perform proofreading. However sometime I like to help other languages
> translators, so eventually all of other languages xml should be
> available to pick up somewhere.

By any chance, do you have a list of new languages that need support?
If so, and you were to send it to us here, we could start the process by
creating the files, which translators could then populate as needed.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 01:41:03 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:41:03 -0400
Subject: Tips for Stronger Writing
In-Reply-To: <1224711497.21380.294.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1224688158.15732.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1224711497.21380.294.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1224726063.7227.25.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 14:38 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 11:09 -0400, Elizabeth Ann West wrote:
> > Hello All,
> > 
> > As I am working on editing the install-guide, I had a great idea for a
> > series through the docs-list. If people are interested, I would be happy
> > to start condensing my editing techniques into small tidbits
> > documentation writers can learn from and apply to any writing pieces,
> > making them stronger. I can try to have a new Tips for Stronger Writing
> > each week, if you all find them helpful. Here is the first one titled
> > "Trim the That." Please let me know how you like it, if it is easy to
> > understand, and if you would like me to continue the series.
> 
> +10
> 
> Also, catch me on IRC and let's figure out a good place to put these on
> the wiki.  I'm thinking we want to mutate the style guide a bit, adding
> a new [[Category:Style guide]] so we can add content easily without
> worrying about structure too much.

Very nice.  Some other suggestions:

* use of "will" (i.e. future tense to indicate how software reacts to
user interaction)
* use of "simply"/"just" (to indicate ease)
* use of "which" vs. "that"

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From noriko at redhat.com  Thu Oct 23 02:15:49 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:15:49 +1000
Subject: plan for working with release notes
In-Reply-To: <1224725969.7227.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1224708098.21380.278.camel@calliope.phig.org>	<1224708815.19516.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1224711026.21380.286.camel@calliope.phig.org>	<48FFD2E4.9090200@redhat.com>
	<1224725969.7227.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <48FFDE55.7070006@redhat.com>

Paul W. Frields ????????:
> On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 11:27 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
>> Karsten 'quaid' Wade ????????:
>>> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 16:53 -0400, Jared Smith wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 13:41 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
>>>>> Does this sound like something we can ask the translators to do?
>>>>>
>>>>>         1. Docs team creates all the needed files in
>>>>>         fedora-doc-utils/common/ for each language currently in
>>>>>         release-notes/po/.
>>>>>         
>>>>>         2. Translators clone f-d-u to be 'docs-common' locally, next to
>>>>>         the release-notes module:
>>>>>         
>>>>>         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes
>>>>>         git clone git://fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-doc-utils
>>>>>         docs-common
>>>> I thought one of the fundamental points was that we weren't going to
>>>> force the translators to learn yet another SCM system.  We should offer
>>>> alternatives (open a ticket with the info and one of us will do it for
>>>> them) for the steps that would otherwise require tools like git.
>>> Yes, that is a fundamental goal, and currently they don't need to use
>>> *any* SCM to submit translations.  Translators can download the POT file
>>> and submit the PO file via l10n.fedoraproject.org.  But for those who
>>> want to build locally to check their work, they need a working
>>> toolchain.
>>>
>>> This is worth clarifying in updates to TQSG -- these are actions for
>>> people who want to build locally.
>> Since it seems natural that many translators wish for the capability of
>> building for proofreading purpose, this will be must to include.
>>
>> Or, when committed, some mechanism automatically builds them and
>> publishes somewhere as draft, translators may not need to have git
>> installed for proofreading purpose.
> 
> What if we were to fix the TQSG to include information on how to:
> 
> 1. check out the "new" docs-common,
> 
> 2. add new language support by running a couple commands and translating
> a single small POT => PO file (in other words, exactly as before), and
> 
> 3. file a Trac ticket with the appropriate additions?

Yp, it sounds no problem

> 
>>>>> * For the files in f-d-u/common, what -$LANG format should we be using?
>>>>> For example, there is a po/de.po file, and a common/*-de_DE.xml.
>>>> No clue... all I know is that some languages fall back... so for
>>>> example, a en_US might fall back to en.
>>> Interesting.  It appears that there is a parity right now between the
>>> po/ folder and the common/ folder, especially since I merged the Korean
>>> files.
>> We are expected to change our language code to such as "ja-JP" due to
>> Publican not accepting "_" underscore, no?
>> My memory is bad.
> 
> The Fedora docs toolchain won't mind either format, so translators can
> do as they like, really.
> 
>>>>> * I added *ko.xml to f-d-u/common/.  How do I know if there are any
>>>>> others missing?  Is it OK to expect translators to create those locally,
>>>>> which makes their build work, and submit them to Docs?
>>>> I don't know.  FYI, the Korean language stuff was done just last night.
>>>> It's probably worth documenting what needs to be done to create a new
>>>> language, so that people like myself who are inexperience with the
>>>> translation process have a canonical source to know what to do.
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Adding_languages_to_fedora-doc-utils
>> >From individual translator's view, even if ko.xml is missing, as far as
>> release-note-ja is buildable then that does not cause any problem for me
>> to perform proofreading. However sometime I like to help other languages
>> translators, so eventually all of other languages xml should be
>> available to pick up somewhere.
> 
> By any chance, do you have a list of new languages that need support?
> If so, and you were to send it to us here, we could start the process by
> creating the files, which translators could then populate as needed.
> 
For release-note, Korean was the only one missing AFAIK. For 
install-guide, Russian (ru), Chinese Traditional (zh_TW) and Korean (ko) 
are missing. I have no consent yet that those translators are going to 
contribute on Installation Guide for F10 though.

There might be more to come from India languages.
/me ping ankit and mishti.

noriko
> 



From noriko at redhat.com  Thu Oct 23 02:56:27 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:56:27 +1000
Subject: Readme?
In-Reply-To: <48FFAE60.7040503@redhat.com>
References: <48FEB99E.8000900@redhat.com> <48FF0120.6070600@gmail.com>
	<48FFAE60.7040503@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <48FFE7DB.4060203@redhat.com>

>> PO files for those are here:
>>
>> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/languages/pl/fedora-10 (Docs 
>> section on the bottom)
>>
>> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-readme#master
>> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-readme-burning-isos#master
>> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-readme-live-image#master

Sorry to be pushy...I know there is very limited resource.
This is something it would be nice if we could know.
So assuming those are F9 stats, when are they going to be updated?

http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-homepage
This Homepages has been deprecated I heard.
If so, could you please advise, so that we can take it out from DL and TX?

Please smack me if I am daydreaming.

noriko



From ianweller at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 03:00:06 2008
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:00:06 -0500
Subject: fedora-wiki list for wiki users and contributors
Message-ID: <20081023025924.GA21231@gmail.com>

Hi all,

A new moderate-traffic mailing list for users and contributors of the
Fedora Project Wiki has been set up.

Among the discussions will be policy, announcements, and editing tips.
The list has been created to bring together the wider wiki community
split apart between different sub-projects of Fedora.

If you are interested in these sorts of discussions, please subscribe to
fedora-wiki at lists.fedoraproject.org at
  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-wiki
We'll be glad to see you!

-- 
Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com>                  http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Oct 23 03:14:46 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:14:46 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: Preview Release Planning Meeting]
Message-ID: <1224731686.21380.299.camel@calliope.phig.org>

I forgot to tell you all about this meeting when it happened last time.
I intend to go, although last time I wasn't able to.  If someone else is
available to fill in just in case, let me know, and I'll keep you in the
loop.

In the meantime, since this happens before the Docs weekly meeting, if
you know of something release related we need to address in this
meeting, it is a great place to talk to all of the projects involved in
the release.

- Karsten

-------- Forwarded Message --------
From: John Poelstra <poelstra at redhat.com>
Subject: Preview Release Planning Meeting
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:17:57 -0700

Sending this mail out to representatives from each of the key Fedora 
teams to have a short meeting on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 17:00 
UTC (1 PM EDT), to make sure we are all aligned for the F10 Preview 
Release scheduled for the following Tuesday, November 4, 2008

Please coordinate within your team if the leader has changed or if 
someone is attending in your place.  Then please let me know.  I plan to 
send telephone conference details directly to the following people on 
Monday.

Spot Callaway -- Fedora Engineering manager
M?ir?n Duffy -- Art
Dimitris Gelzos -- Translation
Paul Frields -- Fedora Project Leader
Jesse Keating -- Release Engineering
Mike McGrath -- Infrastructure
Bill Nottingham -- Development/FESCo
John Poelstra -- Organizer
Jonathan Roberts -- Marketing
Max Spevack -- Ambassadors
Karsten Wade -- Documentation
Will Woods -- QA
Ricky Zhou -- Websites

I will send another reminder next Monday along with the conferencing 
information.

John
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From ianweller at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 03:31:05 2008
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 05:31:05 +0200
Subject: fedora-wiki list for wiki users and contributors
Message-ID: <000401c934bf$c7acac70$ba00000a@grecom.local>

Hi all,

A new moderate-traffic mailing list for users and contributors of the
Fedora Project Wiki has been set up.

Among the discussions will be policy, announcements, and editing tips.
The list has been created to bring together the wider wiki community
split apart between different sub-projects of Fedora.

If you are interested in these sorts of discussions, please subscribe to
fedora-wiki at lists.fedoraproject.org at
  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-wiki
We'll be glad to see you!

-- 
Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com>                  http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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fedora-announce-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list

From ianweller at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 03:31:05 2008
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 05:31:05 +0200
Subject: fedora-wiki list for wiki users and contributors
Message-ID: <000901c934bf$c7af1d70$ba00000a@grecom.local>

Hi all,

A new moderate-traffic mailing list for users and contributors of the
Fedora Project Wiki has been set up.

Among the discussions will be policy, announcements, and editing tips.
The list has been created to bring together the wider wiki community
split apart between different sub-projects of Fedora.

If you are interested in these sorts of discussions, please subscribe to
fedora-wiki at lists.fedoraproject.org at
  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-wiki
We'll be glad to see you!

-- 
Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com>                  http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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fedora-announce-list mailing list
fedora-announce-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list

From noriko at redhat.com  Thu Oct 23 04:28:47 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:28:47 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Release Notes POT]
Message-ID: <48FFFD7F.2080809@redhat.com>

Paul, Karsten and Jared
Please add the following languages.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Release Notes POT
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:22:49 +0530
From: Ani Peter <apeter at redhat.com>
Reply-To: Fedora Translation Project List <fedora-trans-list at redhat.com>
To: Fedora Translation Project List <fedora-trans-list at redhat.com>
References: <1224424879.5888.3.camel at localhost.localdomain> 
<48FE7CE9.5060603 at redhat.com>	<48FF0088.7030702 at gmail.com> 
<48FFE16B.7030709 at redhat.com>

Dear Noriko,

In the
http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-release-notes#master, I
find many Indic languages missing including my team - Malayalam (ml).
Marati (mr), Kannada (kn), Telugu (te), Assamese (as), Oriya (or) are
the other Indic languages missing.

Please do the needful.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards
Ani Peter
Malayalam Team


Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> Piotr Dr?g ????????:
>> Noriko Mizumoto pisze:
>>> At least PO files can be checked out and started translation.
>>> PO files will be submittable via Transifex, I heard.
>>>
>>> Here the steps to get release-notes.
>>> (I need to add these in TQSG later)
>>>
>>
>> No need to. Generating PO files in Damned Lies works again.
>>
>> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/languages/pl/fedora-10
>> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-release-notes#master
>>
> Is any language missing in the list?
> Is any new language translator who likes to have fresh start of 
> release-note?
> Let us know so that Docs team will be able to create and add your 
> language PO file and necessary files for build.
>
> cheers
> noriko
>
> -- 
> Fedora-trans-list mailing list
> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list
>

--
Fedora-trans-list mailing list
Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list



From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Oct 23 05:00:09 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:00:09 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Release Notes POT]
In-Reply-To: <48FFFD7F.2080809@redhat.com>
References: <48FFFD7F.2080809@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1224738009.21380.304.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 14:28 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> Paul, Karsten and Jared
> Please add the following languages.

This is what I did:

* Added the missing Indic languages to:
** fedora-doc-utils/common/*-$LANG.xml (a.k.a. docs-common)
** release-notes/po/$LANG.po
* Updated release-notes/po/LINGUAS

Noriko said DamnedLies updates every ~8 hours, in the meantime the files
are definitely in the git repository for submitting via Transifex.

> -------- Original Message -------
> Subject: Re: Release Notes POT
> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:22:49 +0530
> From: Ani Peter <apeter at redhat.com>
> Reply-To: Fedora Translation Project List <fedora-trans-list at redhat.com>
> To: Fedora Translation Project List <fedora-trans-list at redhat.com>
> References: <1224424879.5888.3.camel at localhost.localdomain> 
> <48FE7CE9.5060603 at redhat.com>	<48FF0088.7030702 at gmail.com> 
> <48FFE16B.7030709 at redhat.com>
> 
> Dear Noriko,
> 
> In the
> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-release-notes#master, I
> find many Indic languages missing including my team - Malayalam (ml).
> Marati (mr), Kannada (kn), Telugu (te), Assamese (as), Oriya (or) are
> the other Indic languages missing.
> 
> Please do the needful.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Best regards
> Ani Peter
> Malayalam Team
> 
> 
> Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> > Piotr Dr?g ????????:
> >> Noriko Mizumoto pisze:
> >>> At least PO files can be checked out and started translation.
> >>> PO files will be submittable via Transifex, I heard.
> >>>
> >>> Here the steps to get release-notes.
> >>> (I need to add these in TQSG later)
> >>>
> >>
> >> No need to. Generating PO files in Damned Lies works again.
> >>
> >> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/languages/pl/fedora-10
> >> http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-release-notes#master
> >>
> > Is any language missing in the list?
> > Is any new language translator who likes to have fresh start of 
> > release-note?
> > Let us know so that Docs team will be able to create and add your 
> > language PO file and necessary files for build.
> >
> > cheers
> > noriko
> >
> > -- 
> > Fedora-trans-list mailing list
> > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list
> >
> 
> --
> Fedora-trans-list mailing list
> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list
> 
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From noriko at redhat.com  Thu Oct 23 06:14:49 2008
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:14:49 +1000
Subject: plan for working with release notes
In-Reply-To: <48FFDE55.7070006@redhat.com>
References: <1224708098.21380.278.camel@calliope.phig.org>	<1224708815.19516.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<1224711026.21380.286.camel@calliope.phig.org>	<48FFD2E4.9090200@redhat.com>	<1224725969.7227.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<48FFDE55.7070006@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49001659.7010100@redhat.com>

Reviewed TQSG closer, I have a couple of ideas and questions.

>>
>> What if we were to fix the TQSG to include information on how to:
>>
>> 1. check out the "new" docs-common,
>>
>> 2. add new language support by running a couple commands and translating
>> a single small POT => PO file (in other words, exactly as before), and

Assuming this single small PO file refers to 
docs-common/common/entities/po/*.po files, it seems possible to download 
release-notes.pot via DL and to submit $LANG.po via TX similar to 
software, if set correctly, no?

So that no command operation required nor understanding doc-common/ 
structure for translation-self.

How you think?

>>
>> 3. file a Trac ticket with the appropriate additions?

docs-common/common/*.xml to be created by release-note team..
legalnotice-opl-ja.xml  legalnotice-relnotes-ja.xml

what about docs-common/immage/*.svg?
watermark-ja.svg

How can we translate this SVG and make PNG?
watermark-ja.png

cheers
noriko



From kam at kamsalisbury.com  Thu Oct 23 11:28:14 2008
From: kam at kamsalisbury.com (Kam)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 04:28:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Tips for Stronger Writing
Message-ID: <49005fce.11112c0a.0511.0da6@mx.google.com>

-----Original Message-----

--snip
So try taking a look over your next piece of writing and see if you can
trim the "that." :)

Thank you Elizabeth, I always learn something from your posts. 

--
Kam
http://kamsalisbury.com
GPG key: FAF1751E



From valent.turkovic at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 11:55:21 2008
From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 13:55:21 +0200
Subject: Much more emphasis on Fedora users needed in wiki
In-Reply-To: <1224685389.11063.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <64b14b300810171037t4c1b79d8hff46c6423cbf96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<64b14b300810180953w604ddad8h98b0f9fdc6ae7424@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081019004853.GB15384@salma.internal.frields.org>
	<64b14b300810220706r1880e639p44dd4e7477e5918b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1224685389.11063.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <64b14b300810230455h3589ecabt15629f9dc0f62930@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 16:06 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 2:48 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 06:53:10PM +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>> >> I just posted a new howto on my blog.
>> >>
>> >> Bluetooth GPS Fedora howto:
>> >> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/bluetooth-gps-fedora-howto/
>> >>
>> >> Is there somewhere on Fedora wiki a place for it?
>> >
>> > You don't have to ask, Valent, it's a wiki.  Every user has a draft
>> > space under their username on the wiki.  For instance, mine is:
>> >
>> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields
>> >
>> > When I want to post something for people to edit, I use:
>> >
>> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/My_new_document
>> >
>> > If you want the solution to be globally searchable, you can use:
>> >
>> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Some_new_document
>> >
>>
>> Thank you Paul,
>> I made new document on wiki:
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Valent/Fedora_Bluetooth_GPS_How_To
>>
>> Maybe I wasn't clear (english is not my primary language) but I wasn't
>> asking how to put page on the wiki (but still thank you very much for
>> explaining) but how to better organize Fedora wiki for Fedora users.
>>
>> Have you looked at Gentoo wiki? Have you looked at Fedora Solved?
>>
>> That is what I'm talking about.
>>
>> Let's make Fedora wiki better for Fedora users with a HowTo section on
>> the front page that makes use of best howtos currently in drafts. When
>> the "wiki infrastructure" is up I guess that other Fedora contributors
>> will join and add much more Fedora howtos and guides.
>
> I think that's entirely the *wrong* way to use the wiki.  Wikipedia
> doesn't organize things in hierarchies either.  Instead, we should title
> all pages in ways that allow the "Search" feature to work properly, like
> this:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=bluetooth&go=Go
>
> Notice how your page comes up, because you named it properly.  *That's*
> how the wiki should work, not by arbitrary hierarchies.

http://www.uploadgeek.com/uploads456/0/wiki-search.png

I don't see my page come up :(

I tried logging on and searching again, but I don't see it. Look at my
screenshot. Could you also share your screenshoot to see what I'm
missing.

Thank you,
Valent.

-- 
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Thu Oct 23 13:26:27 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 13:26:27 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #9: Network Configuration - Chapter
 9 update
In-Reply-To: <056.a9fe8c36b0e2d91e0b922e896c8f6d0c@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.a9fe8c36b0e2d91e0b922e896c8f6d0c@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.5c32503891088fc640a188d1564e6419@fedorahosted.org>

#9: Network Configuration - Chapter 9 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  eawest  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * owner:  jsmith => eawest

Comment:

 This has been checked into git and is now ready for wordsmithing.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/9#comment:4>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 15:08:28 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:08:28 -0400
Subject: Fedora IG test day TODAY!
Message-ID: <ef93afcf0810230808s2c8b2fedi6a23fdb57e5dacd0@mail.gmail.com>

This is probably a good opportunity for Fedora Docs folks to participate
with an eye toward helping identify, file, and handle bugs in our
Installation Guide -- places where our text and advice doesn't match
today's reality of Anaconda for F10.

I'm sorry I can't be there, since I am participating in panels at the
FSOSS conference today.  Please take advantage of today by visiting
#fedora-qa on IRC Freenode, and communicating with the testers!

Paul


-------- Forwarded Message --------
> From: James Laska <jlaska at redhat.com>
> Reply-To: For testers of Fedora Core development releases
> <fedora-test-list at redhat.com>
> To: fedora-test-list at redhat.com
> Subject: Fedora Test Day - F10 Installation Guide
> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 10:33:52 -0400
>
> Greetings,
>
> Today's scheduled test day with a focus on eclipse-3.4 testing has been
> postponed. :(
>
> Instead, I'd like to invite folks to help review the F10 *DRAFT*
> installation guide (available at
> http://jsmith.fedorapeople.org/drafts/install-guide-en_US/).  There have
> been significant improvements to anaconda (NetworkManager integration
> and install method changes) which may not be fully/correctly documented.
>
> As always, you're welcome to join #fedora-qa to share your F10-Beta or
> F10 Snapshot feedback.
>
> More information can be found at
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Test_Days.
>
> Hope to see you there,
> James
> --
> fedora-test-list mailing list
> fedora-test-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list
-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 15:09:13 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:09:13 -0400
Subject: Much more emphasis on Fedora users needed in wiki
In-Reply-To: <64b14b300810230455h3589ecabt15629f9dc0f62930@mail.gmail.com>
References: <64b14b300810171037t4c1b79d8hff46c6423cbf96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<64b14b300810180953w604ddad8h98b0f9fdc6ae7424@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081019004853.GB15384@salma.internal.frields.org>
	<64b14b300810220706r1880e639p44dd4e7477e5918b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1224685389.11063.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<64b14b300810230455h3589ecabt15629f9dc0f62930@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ef93afcf0810230809g2707f2c9mc1e97ea3301e82e7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 13:55 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think that's entirely the *wrong* way to use the wiki.  Wikipedia
> > doesn't organize things in hierarchies either.  Instead, we should title
> > all pages in ways that allow the "Search" feature to work properly, like
> > this:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=bluetooth&go=Go
> >
> > Notice how your page comes up, because you named it properly.  *That's*
> > how the wiki should work, not by arbitrary hierarchies.
>
> http://www.uploadgeek.com/uploads456/0/wiki-search.png
>
> I don't see my page come up :(
>
> I tried logging on and searching again, but I don't see it. Look at my
> screenshot. Could you also share your screenshoot to see what I'm
> missing.

Did you include the User namespace in your search?  Note that's not the
default, but once your draft is ready, you can move it into the Main
namespace and it will come up on default searches.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 7:55 AM, Valent Turkovic
<valent.turkovic at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 16:06 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>>> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 2:48 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 06:53:10PM +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>>> >> I just posted a new howto on my blog.
>>> >>
>>> >> Bluetooth GPS Fedora howto:
>>> >> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/bluetooth-gps-fedora-howto/
>>> >>
>>> >> Is there somewhere on Fedora wiki a place for it?
>>> >
>>> > You don't have to ask, Valent, it's a wiki.  Every user has a draft
>>> > space under their username on the wiki.  For instance, mine is:
>>> >
>>> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields
>>> >
>>> > When I want to post something for people to edit, I use:
>>> >
>>> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/My_new_document
>>> >
>>> > If you want the solution to be globally searchable, you can use:
>>> >
>>> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Some_new_document
>>> >
>>>
>>> Thank you Paul,
>>> I made new document on wiki:
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Valent/Fedora_Bluetooth_GPS_How_To
>>>
>>> Maybe I wasn't clear (english is not my primary language) but I wasn't
>>> asking how to put page on the wiki (but still thank you very much for
>>> explaining) but how to better organize Fedora wiki for Fedora users.
>>>
>>> Have you looked at Gentoo wiki? Have you looked at Fedora Solved?
>>>
>>> That is what I'm talking about.
>>>
>>> Let's make Fedora wiki better for Fedora users with a HowTo section on
>>> the front page that makes use of best howtos currently in drafts. When
>>> the "wiki infrastructure" is up I guess that other Fedora contributors
>>> will join and add much more Fedora howtos and guides.
>>
>> I think that's entirely the *wrong* way to use the wiki.  Wikipedia
>> doesn't organize things in hierarchies either.  Instead, we should title
>> all pages in ways that allow the "Search" feature to work properly, like
>> this:
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=bluetooth&go=Go
>>
>> Notice how your page comes up, because you named it properly.  *That's*
>> how the wiki should work, not by arbitrary hierarchies.
>
> http://www.uploadgeek.com/uploads456/0/wiki-search.png
>
> I don't see my page come up :(
>
> I tried logging on and searching again, but I don't see it. Look at my
> screenshot. Could you also share your screenshoot to see what I'm
> missing.
>
> Thank you,
> Valent.
>
> --
> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
> linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
> registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
> ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Thu Oct 23 14:53:16 2008
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 10:53:16 -0400
Subject: Much more emphasis on Fedora users needed in wiki
In-Reply-To: <64b14b300810230455h3589ecabt15629f9dc0f62930@mail.gmail.com>
References: <64b14b300810171037t4c1b79d8hff46c6423cbf96eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<64b14b300810180953w604ddad8h98b0f9fdc6ae7424@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081019004853.GB15384@salma.internal.frields.org>
	<64b14b300810220706r1880e639p44dd4e7477e5918b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1224685389.11063.32.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<64b14b300810230455h3589ecabt15629f9dc0f62930@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0810230753n476acca8v573a3f2ce75ebdd5@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 7:55 AM, Valent Turkovic
<valent.turkovic at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 16:06 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>>> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 2:48 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 06:53:10PM +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>>> >> I just posted a new howto on my blog.
>>> >>
>>> >> Bluetooth GPS Fedora howto:
>>> >> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/index.php/archives/bluetooth-gps-fedora-howto/
>>> >>
>>> >> Is there somewhere on Fedora wiki a place for it?
>>> >
>>> > You don't have to ask, Valent, it's a wiki.  Every user has a draft
>>> > space under their username on the wiki.  For instance, mine is:
>>> >
>>> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields
>>> >
>>> > When I want to post something for people to edit, I use:
>>> >
>>> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/My_new_document
>>> >
>>> > If you want the solution to be globally searchable, you can use:
>>> >
>>> >  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Some_new_document
>>> >
>>>
>>> Thank you Paul,
>>> I made new document on wiki:
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Valent/Fedora_Bluetooth_GPS_How_To
>>>
>>> Maybe I wasn't clear (english is not my primary language) but I wasn't
>>> asking how to put page on the wiki (but still thank you very much for
>>> explaining) but how to better organize Fedora wiki for Fedora users.
>>>
>>> Have you looked at Gentoo wiki? Have you looked at Fedora Solved?
>>>
>>> That is what I'm talking about.
>>>
>>> Let's make Fedora wiki better for Fedora users with a HowTo section on
>>> the front page that makes use of best howtos currently in drafts. When
>>> the "wiki infrastructure" is up I guess that other Fedora contributors
>>> will join and add much more Fedora howtos and guides.
>>
>> I think that's entirely the *wrong* way to use the wiki.  Wikipedia
>> doesn't organize things in hierarchies either.  Instead, we should title
>> all pages in ways that allow the "Search" feature to work properly, like
>> this:
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=bluetooth&go=Go
>>
>> Notice how your page comes up, because you named it properly.  *That's*
>> how the wiki should work, not by arbitrary hierarchies.
>
> http://www.uploadgeek.com/uploads456/0/wiki-search.png
>
> I don't see my page come up :(
>
> I tried logging on and searching again, but I don't see it. Look at my
> screenshot. Could you also share your screenshoot to see what I'm
> missing.
>
> Thank you,
> Valent.
>
> --
> http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
> linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
> registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
> ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>

The User: namespace isn't in the default search path. Typically you
would use the user: namespace for documents directly related to you,
or that are in draft. If you are ready for the world to see it, I'd
move it out of User: so it's within the default search path.



From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 23:03:53 2008
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:33:53 +0530
Subject: Installation Guide : Remarks
Message-ID: <78323d480810231603t613fa083ibf5354d7ae40adff@mail.gmail.com>

I had a look at Ch.1--3 of the draft mentioned in

>> Instead, I'd like to invite folks to help review the F10 *DRAFT*
>> installation guide (available at
>> http://jsmith.fedorapeople.org/drafts/install-guide-en_US/).  There have

$2.2 'approriate'  <spelling>

$3.2 Processors

VIA C4 ?!

VIA C3, C7, AMD Geode and Longson are not mentioned

$3.3

What about those who want to install from iso images from hard disks
(without burning them)?
Part of $6.1 can be shifted here

$6.2  "Before you begin installation from a hard drive, check the
partition type to ensure that Fedora can read it. To check a
partition's file system under Windows, use the Disk Management tool.
To check a partition's file system under Linux, use the fdisk utility.
..."
does not say mention the supported file systems.


Best

A. Mani



-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Thu Oct 23 23:15:56 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:15:56 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #14: Software Selection - Chapter
 14 update
In-Reply-To: <056.236d253e855c063db1376539cbae1587@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.236d253e855c063db1376539cbae1587@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.abfd667fd33c92207b603484c079f2d5@fedorahosted.org>

#14: Software Selection - Chapter 14 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  soulspecter
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new        
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready   
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0     
Resolution:           |    Keywords:             
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by soulspecter):

 At the end of section 14.2 I think we should make note that "When you have
 finished selecting packages, click Close to save your optional package
 selections and return to the main package selection screen."

 Also, in section 14.2.3, the bullets would look more structured if they
 were indented under the heading "All Fedora installations include the
 following network services:" I was not able to make this change in the
 attached XML file.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/14#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Thu Oct 23 23:17:01 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:17:01 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #14: Software Selection - Chapter
 14 update
In-Reply-To: <056.236d253e855c063db1376539cbae1587@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.236d253e855c063db1376539cbae1587@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.5dc49ea1451f30236aca0c8d45245acf@fedorahosted.org>

#14: Software Selection - Chapter 14 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by soulspecter):

  * owner:  soulspecter => jsmith

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/14#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Thu Oct 23 23:17:51 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:17:51 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #14: Software Selection - Chapter
 14 update
In-Reply-To: <056.236d253e855c063db1376539cbae1587@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.236d253e855c063db1376539cbae1587@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.2881091f678c6ed6826ba3aa40add542@fedorahosted.org>

#14: Software Selection - Chapter 14 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by soulspecter):

 Turning over to jsmith for review and upload.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/14#comment:4>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 24 02:44:19 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 02:44:19 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #15: Chapter 15: Installing packages
In-Reply-To: <056.c48cf6e146d0dd70146bf1a2c9a06767@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.c48cf6e146d0dd70146bf1a2c9a06767@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.17dac94a2f853ca0efd0ea5d3199873a@fedorahosted.org>

#15: Chapter 15: Installing packages
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  eawest  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by ke4qqq):

  * owner:  ke4qqq => eawest

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/15#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 24 02:48:17 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 02:48:17 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #16: Chapter 16 First Boot
In-Reply-To: <056.24803034bd86857b4482ccced2ecb6d8@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.24803034bd86857b4482ccced2ecb6d8@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.74dd19babdc8fd2ddd5c7a5434f27fc4@fedorahosted.org>

#16: Chapter 16 First Boot
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  eawest  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by ke4qqq):

  * owner:  ke4qqq => eawest
  * status:  assigned => new

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/16#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 24 02:50:07 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 02:50:07 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #2: Quick Start for Experts -
 Chapter 2 update
In-Reply-To: <056.3fac050fcaac2bb002c8236e1520baff@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.3fac050fcaac2bb002c8236e1520baff@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.5d62b1d7e99f8b9bfc083ae4719e5dd9@fedorahosted.org>

#2: Quick Start for Experts - Chapter 2 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  ke4qqq  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by ke4qqq):

 fozz - I think I made several  commits to this and didn't see much other
 changing as being needed - please provide your perspective as I am
 thinking about pushing this to eawest for wordsmithing.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/2#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 24 04:14:23 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:14:23 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #1: Chapter 1 update
In-Reply-To: <056.ec0f2db107c6aef0dcffd993b287322e@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.ec0f2db107c6aef0dcffd993b287322e@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.b579b05afdf8de8657212056aa7d57cb@fedorahosted.org>

#1: Chapter 1 update
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid        |       Owner:  ke4qqq  
      Type:  enhancement  |      Status:  closed  
  Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content      |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:  fixed        |    Keywords:          
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
Changes (by ke4qqq):

  * status:  new => closed
  * resolution:  => fixed

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/1#comment:4>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 24 04:18:17 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:18:17 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #21: Other Technical Documentation
 - Appendix D update
In-Reply-To: <056.f61874580f12426bb5b5896f06b97567@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.f61874580f12426bb5b5896f06b97567@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.c9b120a346ac7fc4c8cad81f685f6bbe@fedorahosted.org>

#21: Other Technical Documentation - Appendix D update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  fozz    
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by ke4qqq):

 I pushed the link to the selinux guide that quaid suggested.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/21#comment:5>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 24 18:04:45 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:04:45 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #14: Software Selection - Chapter
 14 update
In-Reply-To: <056.236d253e855c063db1376539cbae1587@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.236d253e855c063db1376539cbae1587@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.472dcde5edbcf7e3e0516e5045255af2@fedorahosted.org>

#14: Software Selection - Chapter 14 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  eawest  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * owner:  jsmith => eawest

Comment:

 Checked into the git repo.  Turning over to eawest for wordsmithing.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/14#comment:5>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 24 18:17:45 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:17:45 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
In-Reply-To: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.d478f67d582c25e505bd9deb8af512a7@fedorahosted.org>

#3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid        |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  enhancement  |      Status:  assigned
  Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content      |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:               |    Keywords:          
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * status:  new => assigned

Comment:

 I'm not quite ready to check this into git, and I think there's something
 wrong here:

 In the "Making USB Media" section, the command has been changed from:

 findfs LABEL=<label>

 to

 findfs --label=<label>

 In looking on Fedora 9, the findfs application still takes the original
 form.  Can anyone clarify whether or not this change is correct?

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/3#comment:11>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sat Oct 25 02:49:34 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 02:49:34 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #17: Chapter 17. Your Next Steps
In-Reply-To: <056.040c7685d1610840a790c9462ac18a89@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.040c7685d1610840a790c9462ac18a89@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.3ad45d3c0cb04d8d875808c5074d2b65@fedorahosted.org>

#17: Chapter 17. Your Next Steps
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  eawest  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by ke4qqq):

  * owner:  ke4qqq => eawest

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/17#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sat Oct 25 16:55:42 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:55:42 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #11: Set the Root Password -
 Chapter 11 update
In-Reply-To: <056.ea754428ca88d9764cc5ca90c9a5cc80@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.ea754428ca88d9764cc5ca90c9a5cc80@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.600233f052ac90d0172c418948c26840@fedorahosted.org>

#11: Set the Root Password - Chapter 11 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  nguyenj 
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by nguyenj):

  * summary:  Chapter 11 update => Set the Root Password - Chapter 11
              update

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/11#comment:2>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sat Oct 25 16:56:18 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:56:18 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #13: Boot Loader - Chapter 13 update
In-Reply-To: <056.6958a9b232a4dc75139e53450d5a5f12@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.6958a9b232a4dc75139e53450d5a5f12@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.799465f4bd7e379ed2049c7fbf9132de@fedorahosted.org>

#13: Boot Loader - Chapter 13 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  nguyenj 
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by nguyenj):

  * summary:  Chapter 13 update => Boot Loader - Chapter 13 update

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/13#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sat Oct 25 18:39:03 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 18:39:03 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #7: Welcome Dialog - Chapter 7
 Update
In-Reply-To: <056.1a4904dc1a22d8d02140ce171d76c8bd@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.1a4904dc1a22d8d02140ce171d76c8bd@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.ea8dd4cfaf61fcd1b66147b854c59741@fedorahosted.org>

#7: Welcome Dialog - Chapter 7 Update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  chr1sjohnson
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new         
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready    
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0      
Resolution:           |    Keywords:              
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by chr1sjohnson):

 No change with 7.0 - 7.2.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/7#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Sun Oct 26 23:00:20 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 23:00:20 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #12: 12.6. General Disk Setup Disk
 Partitioning - Chapter 12 update
In-Reply-To: <056.ad7acacaf1fd9aa8fd19bacf24bc2c7d@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.ad7acacaf1fd9aa8fd19bacf24bc2c7d@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.6b1b92061dd93d334bce6ab6032e302a@fedorahosted.org>

#12: 12.6. General Disk Setup Disk Partitioning - Chapter 12 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by ericklemon):

  * owner:  ericklemon => quaid
  * summary:  Disk Partitioning - Chapter 12 update => 12.6. General Disk
              Setup Disk Partitioning - Chapter 12 update

Comment:

 Resize existing partition and create default layout in Free space

 If the selected drives that have partitions already formatted can be
 reduced in size to create free space for installation of new partition.You
 will be able to modify the size of ext3 partitions as well as NTFS and
 Fat32. If you wish to select this option you need to ensure that the
 partition his healthy.
                 This option will no execute if it detects that the
 partition is damaged or corrupted.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/12#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 27 01:11:00 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 01:11:00 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #10: Chapter 10 update
In-Reply-To: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.c3b189f6efa076a99fd5fbdec252cb35@fedorahosted.org>

#10: Chapter 10 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  nguyenj 
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by nguyenj):

  * owner:  ericklemon => nguyenj

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/10#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 27 01:11:32 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 01:11:32 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #10: Time Zone Selection - Chapter
 10 update
In-Reply-To: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.9d4302fdbceb6741ecea15789eede811@fedorahosted.org>

#10: Time Zone Selection - Chapter 10 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  nguyenj 
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by nguyenj):

  * summary:  Chapter 10 update => Time Zone Selection - Chapter 10 update

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/10#comment:4>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 27 01:11:58 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 01:11:58 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #10: Time Zone Selection - Chapter
 10 update
In-Reply-To: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.32ea12a84c4f006a0a20f17117227636@fedorahosted.org>

#10: Time Zone Selection - Chapter 10 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  nguyenj 
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Comment (by nguyenj):

 This looks up to date. Do not see any changes to be made.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/10#comment:5>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 27 01:12:07 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 01:12:07 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #10: Time Zone Selection - Chapter
 10 update
In-Reply-To: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.20318ea83b1e508c80025d1e913a2672@fedorahosted.org>

#10: Time Zone Selection - Chapter 10 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by nguyenj):

  * owner:  nguyenj => jsmith

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/10#comment:6>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 27 01:33:15 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 01:33:15 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #11: Set the Root Password -
 Chapter 11 update
In-Reply-To: <056.ea754428ca88d9764cc5ca90c9a5cc80@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.ea754428ca88d9764cc5ca90c9a5cc80@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.419282a24e3b227ea789ab54159d4afb@fedorahosted.org>

#11: Set the Root Password - Chapter 11 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by nguyenj):

  * owner:  nguyenj => jsmith

Comment:

 This is up to date. No changes need to be made.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/11#comment:3>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 27 02:33:54 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 02:33:54 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #2: Quick Start for Experts -
 Chapter 2 update
In-Reply-To: <056.3fac050fcaac2bb002c8236e1520baff@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.3fac050fcaac2bb002c8236e1520baff@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.8649b0b7ce935c4ff20c694bbf6d538f@fedorahosted.org>

#2: Quick Start for Experts - Chapter 2 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  eawest  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by ke4qqq):

  * owner:  ke4qqq => eawest

Comment:

 I have not heard from fozz on this - even thought it's only been 2 days I
 am going to move it to eawest for wordsmithing, due to the coming
 translation string freeze  occurring tomorrow.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/2#comment:4>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 27 02:53:09 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 02:53:09 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #22: Add content detailing dirty ntfs
 partitions and how parted handles it.
Message-ID: <057.7162d95aa651c70c02871cd4ad9ad935@fedorahosted.org>

#22: Add content detailing dirty ntfs partitions and how parted handles it.
-------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:  ke4qqq       |       Owner:  quaid   
     Type:  enhancement  |      Status:  new     
 Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:  RC-ready
Component:  Content      |     Version:  10.0.0  
 Keywords:               |  
-------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
 Parted is super concerned with safeness of operations. If parted sees any
 potential for an unsuccessful operation it will not begin. Most commonly
 this is caused by a 'dirty' ntfs partition - ie a partition that was shut
 down uncleanly. Parted will error that it's a dirty partition and advise
 to run chkdsk /f. This may require up to two other reboots.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/22>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 27 19:29:12 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:29:12 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #10: Time Zone Selection - Chapter
 10 update
In-Reply-To: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.40a616eb547fa08d55d8b097b8a5bfa0@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.08d8bdf4a078c17314b0e95f8b32739b@fedorahosted.org>

#10: Time Zone Selection - Chapter 10 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  eawest  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * owner:  jsmith => eawest

Comment:

 Passing to eawest for wordsmithing, as there's nothing to do in the
 DocBook source.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/10#comment:7>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 27 19:30:00 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:30:00 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #11: Set the Root Password -
 Chapter 11 update
In-Reply-To: <056.ea754428ca88d9764cc5ca90c9a5cc80@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.ea754428ca88d9764cc5ca90c9a5cc80@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.bb9c836d51f1aae58728794eee626b18@fedorahosted.org>

#11: Set the Root Password - Chapter 11 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  eawest  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * owner:  jsmith => eawest

Comment:

 Passing to eawest for wordsmithing, as there are no DocBook changes.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/11#comment:4>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 27 19:31:07 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:31:07 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
In-Reply-To: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.1701d72409b357de92c75e59270b7c16@fedorahosted.org>

#3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid        |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  enhancement  |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content      |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:               |    Keywords:          
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
Changes (by jsmith):

  * owner:  jsmith => quaid
  * status:  assigned => new

Comment:

 Re-assigning to quaid to sanity check my comments above, and make a
 technical decision there.  Feel free to pass back to me if/when the
 question has been answered.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/3#comment:12>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Mon Oct 27 20:33:34 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 20:33:34 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #13: Boot Loader - Chapter 13 update
In-Reply-To: <056.6958a9b232a4dc75139e53450d5a5f12@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.6958a9b232a4dc75139e53450d5a5f12@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.9bf938cc26ecd0391a8cb19b91fcbf22@fedorahosted.org>

#13: Boot Loader - Chapter 13 update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  jsmith  
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by nguyenj):

  * owner:  nguyenj => jsmith

Comment:

 At the beginning of the 13.1, need to specify:

 "If there is not a pre-existing file system on the hard drive, GRUB will
 install automatically as the boot loader. "

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/13#comment:4>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 01:04:57 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 01:04:57 +0000
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
In-Reply-To: <48FD81EA.2020409@redhat.com>
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>
	<1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<48F53339.8040300@redhat.com>
	<1224100436.28571.199.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224165041.19681.45.camel@victoria-eth> <48FD4854.3030602@redhat.com>
	<48FD81EA.2020409@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1225155897.11369.53.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 17:16 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> John Poelstra ????????:
> > Paul W. Frields said the following on 10/16/2008 06:50 AM Pacific Time:
> >> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 12:53 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 10:03 +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> It might be too late to respond, but I am familiar with IRC, so +1 
> >>>> for IRC.
> >>>> Thank you for bringing this up.
> >>> +1 to IRC.
> >>>
> >>> We also need to use Gobby for shared, real-time document editing.
> >>>
> >>> Where Gobby doesn't work for someone, we can do regular (~5 minute)
> >>> saves to a wiki page, and take input via IRC.
> >>>
> >>> Considering the folks involved ...
> >>> UTC +2
> >>> UTC +10
> >>> UTC -7
> >>>
> >>> When is a good time?
> >>
> >> Someone's going to get shafted on the timezone, no question.  I can do a
> >> night meeting but it means Central Europe is asleep.  I can do a morning
> >> but then Karsten will be asleep.  And in between, Brisbane is asleep!
> >> Wow, this is making me sleepy too....
> >>
> > 
> > I'd vote for UTC -7
> 
> I will try my best, let us know what exact time to be.

What's the resolution of this topic?  When is the next joint scheduling
meeting?

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From jjesse at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 14:04:02 2008
From: jjesse at gmail.com (Jonathan Jesse)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:04:02 -0400
Subject: introduction to doc team
Message-ID: <c8dad2b10810280704k59427b60gf0cee8a08a8becc1@mail.gmail.com>

Good afternoon,

Following the wiki for the Doc team I wanted to drop the list a note
introducing myself. My name is Jonathan Jesse and I normally work with the
Kubuntu Documentation team and have also spent sometime working with the KDE
Docs team.

The product I consult on for a living uses Red Hat and I am need to learn
the Red Hat/Fedora way of doing things.

When I joined the Ubuntu project a couple of years ago, I worked with the
group in the documentation team as it seemed the best way to learn how the
system worked and how to use the product, hence the reason to join the
documentation team for Fedora. I hope to learn not only how Fedora does
their documentation but also how to better use an RPM based system.

Have a great day,

Jonathan
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From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 14:26:13 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:26:13 -0400
Subject: introduction to doc team
In-Reply-To: <c8dad2b10810280704k59427b60gf0cee8a08a8becc1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c8dad2b10810280704k59427b60gf0cee8a08a8becc1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1225203973.27515.89.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 10:04 -0400, Jonathan Jesse wrote:
> Good afternoon,
> 
> Following the wiki for the Doc team I wanted to drop the list a note
> introducing myself. My name is Jonathan Jesse and I normally work with
> the Kubuntu Documentation team and have also spent sometime working
> with the KDE Docs team.
> 
> The product I consult on for a living uses Red Hat and I am need to
> learn the Red Hat/Fedora way of doing things.
> 
> When I joined the Ubuntu project a couple of years ago, I worked with
> the group in the documentation team as it seemed the best way to learn
> how the system worked and how to use the product, hence the reason to
> join the documentation team for Fedora. I hope to learn not only how
> Fedora does their documentation but also how to better use an RPM
> based system.

Hi Jonathan, welcome to the team!  There are a number of people
currently working on our installation guide and release notes -- perhaps
you'd be interested in working with the KDE SIG in Fedora to make sure
their release notes are up to snuff for our release next month?

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Oct 28 19:43:25 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:43:25 -0700
Subject: lead writer - you?
In-Reply-To: <d6e6dfeb0810171109w7534d74bt987f4bc88962e9cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1224214535.28571.279.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<d6e6dfeb0810171109w7534d74bt987f4bc88962e9cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1225223005.21380.684.camel@calliope.phig.org>

Wow, I never finished this, sorry ...

On Fri, 2008-10-17 at 14:09 -0400, David Nalley wrote:

> So the pieces I see as missing from this posting are:

Thanks, always good to prod me for more information.  Sometimes I don't
know that I know what I know and others don't know it. :)

> What are the responsibilities of a lead writer (hopefully a more
> verbose explanation than 'everything')

"Everything."

The idea of a lead writer is similar to a project manager.  It is
someone who is ultimately _accountable_ for making sure something is
brought to completion.  (Detailed list below.)  That is different from
being _responsible_ for each part.  Multiple people can share that
responsibility, but only one person can really be accountable.

IMO, this is a lot to ask of a person volunteering their time.  It's
similar to owning a software package, except I think it is generally
harder.  It is actually more akin to being the lead developer in an
upstream project *and* the downstream packager.

For that reason, I think the idea of a lead writer accountable for so
much is not sustainable.  It is a stop-gap answer until we can do more
with automating many of the functions a lead writer has to do manually
right now.  Automation (CMS) combined with defined processes and a
highly visible list of work to do for each release is going to turn the
lead writer job in to something much more like a software packager.

So:

''Current Lead Writer Accountable For:''

* Work with project leaders to set schedule for each release
* (Help) recruit additional writers
* Parse the work for the document into individual responsibilities other
writers can take on
* Ensure all of that work is done in time for the schedule
** May have to do the work yourself if no one takes on the job or is
unable to complete in time
* Deliver translation files according to the schedule
* Edit or coordinate editing
* Final polish, packaging (if done), and publication (on docs.fp.o)

''Ideal Lead Writer Accountable For:''

* As above, except:
** Once the schedule is set, it can be fixed in to the CMS
** Self-service for writers/editors to take on at-will
** Connect with project-wide recruitment
** Minimizes chances of things slipping between the cracks
** Translation files, packaging, and publication automated

Am I missing anything there?

> What are the qualifications for a lead writer?

* Be able and willing to be accountable for something from start to
finish
** Project management
* Do *not* need to be a highly accomplished writer or editor, but able
to recruit and direct people who can do those tasks
* Stick around or have been around long enough to fully understand the
job and be somewhat self-sufficient
* Enthusiasm and patience, especially patience
* Ability to nag without making enemies

> What is the typical time investment for a lead writer?

Hard to know other than personal experience.  For six of the months of a
year (non sequential months), the work load is small, maybe a few hours
a week of organization, writing, recruiting, and collaborating with
related sub-projects.

Presuming a reasonable amount of organization and tools that don't waste
time, during the more active of the six months, it should be:

* Five to ten hours a week for four+ months
* Ten to fifteen hours a week for the weeks leading up to freeze and release

> What tools are used and which of those need to be known ahead of time?

The full tool set can be learned on the job.  DocBook XML with either
the fedora-doc-utils or publican toolchain (or both?).  Wiki gardening
may be helpful.  Comfortable with using or learning multiple SCMs, in
specific, git, svn, and cvs are used currently.

One question you didn't ask was, Why do all this?  Maybe that is a
follow-up.  Presuming that one already wants to contribute to Fedora and
is balking at the potential time commitment, I focus on the fulfilling
aspects:

* Good for your career.  Red Hat has already hired from within the Docs
project, and other companies may do the same.  Your noted abilities as a
contributor to an important upstream means you are valuable for many
employers before they hire you.

* If you want to write and publish books, it's an impressive resume
builder.  In fact, because our work is openly licensed, you can use it
as the basis for a larger work.

* If you do your job well enough, you reduce the workload by splitting
it amongst many other people.  Take the release notes as an example.
That was a full-time person's job that we have turned in to a few hours
work each release for most of the contributors involved.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Oct 28 23:09:15 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:09:15 -0700
Subject: incomplete group requests
Message-ID: <1225235355.28007.36.camel@calliope.phig.org>

I just went through and removed all the requests to join 'docs' that are
more than a month old without a self-intro to this group.

If I removed yours by mistake, please let us know.  I used google.com
and my own email archive to search for self-intros for each account
request.

-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From jjesse at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 01:13:51 2008
From: jjesse at gmail.com (Jonathan Jesse)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:13:51 -0400
Subject: introduction to doc team
In-Reply-To: <1225203973.27515.89.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <c8dad2b10810280704k59427b60gf0cee8a08a8becc1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225203973.27515.89.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <c8dad2b10810281813v2d80d6c1ybc8dfba3ceea45d7@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 10:04 -0400, Jonathan Jesse wrote:
> > Good afternoon,
> >
> > Following the wiki for the Doc team I wanted to drop the list a note
> > introducing myself. My name is Jonathan Jesse and I normally work with
> > the Kubuntu Documentation team and have also spent sometime working
> > with the KDE Docs team.
> >
> > The product I consult on for a living uses Red Hat and I am need to
> > learn the Red Hat/Fedora way of doing things.
> >
> > When I joined the Ubuntu project a couple of years ago, I worked with
> > the group in the documentation team as it seemed the best way to learn
> > how the system worked and how to use the product, hence the reason to
> > join the documentation team for Fedora. I hope to learn not only how
> > Fedora does their documentation but also how to better use an RPM
> > based system.
>
> Hi Jonathan, welcome to the team!  There are a number of people
> currently working on our installation guide and release notes -- perhaps
> you'd be interested in working with the KDE SIG in Fedora to make sure
> their release notes are up to snuff for our release next month?
>
> --
> Paul W. Frields
>  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
>  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
>  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>

Paul,

Sorry knew to the whole jargon of Fedora, but what is an SIG?  Is that like
the documentation group?

Jonathan
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From dev at nigelj.com  Wed Oct 29 03:21:42 2008
From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:21:42 +1000
Subject: introduction to doc team
In-Reply-To: <c8dad2b10810281813v2d80d6c1ybc8dfba3ceea45d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c8dad2b10810280704k59427b60gf0cee8a08a8becc1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225203973.27515.89.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<c8dad2b10810281813v2d80d6c1ybc8dfba3ceea45d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1225250502.3053.418.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz>

On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 21:13 -0400, Jonathan Jesse wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Paul W. Frields
> <stickster at gmail.com> wrote:
>         
>         On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 10:04 -0400, Jonathan Jesse wrote:
>         > Good afternoon,
>         >
>         > Following the wiki for the Doc team I wanted to drop the
>         list a note
>         > introducing myself. My name is Jonathan Jesse and I normally
>         work with
>         > the Kubuntu Documentation team and have also spent sometime
>         working
>         > with the KDE Docs team.
>         >
>         > The product I consult on for a living uses Red Hat and I am
>         need to
>         > learn the Red Hat/Fedora way of doing things.
>         >
>         > When I joined the Ubuntu project a couple of years ago, I
>         worked with
>         > the group in the documentation team as it seemed the best
>         way to learn
>         > how the system worked and how to use the product, hence the
>         reason to
>         > join the documentation team for Fedora. I hope to learn not
>         only how
>         > Fedora does their documentation but also how to better use
>         an RPM
>         > based system.
>         
>         
>         Hi Jonathan, welcome to the team!  There are a number of
>         people
>         currently working on our installation guide and release notes
>         -- perhaps
>         you'd be interested in working with the KDE SIG in Fedora to
>         make sure
>         their release notes are up to snuff for our release next
>         month?
>         
>         --
>         Paul W. Frields
>          gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937
>         BD11 3717
>          http://paul.frields.org/   -  -
>         http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
>          irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel,
>         #fredlug
>         
>         --
>         fedora-docs-list mailing list
>         fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
>         To unsubscribe:
>         https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> 
> Paul,
> 
> Sorry knew to the whole jargon of Fedora, but what is an SIG?  Is that
> like the documentation group?
SIG = Special Interest Group

So yeah, in the Fedora Docs case, you are entirely correct! :)

- Nigel
> 
> Jonathan
> -- 
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: 
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
-- 
Nigel Jones <dev at nigelj.com>



From ianweller at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 04:54:27 2008
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 23:54:27 -0500
Subject: [dev@nigelj.com: Page Restructuring Information]
Message-ID: <20081029045427.GB4653@gmail.com>

Forwarded from fedora-wiki because you should all know about this and
subscribe.

(https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-wiki)

----- Forwarded message from Nigel Jones <dev at nigelj.com> -----

Delivered-To: ianweller at gmail.com
Delivered-To: fedora-wiki at lists.fedoraproject.org
Subject: Page Restructuring Information
From: Nigel Jones <dev at nigelj.com>
To: fedora-wiki at lists.fedoraproject.org
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:27:33 +1000
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Moderate traffic list for contributors collaborating with the wiki <fedora-wiki at lists.fedoraproject.org>
Errors-To: fedora-wiki-bounces at lists.fedoraproject.org

Hi All,

I'm moving in less than 24 hours, but on my list of things to do/say
before I move is setting up a repo for the page restructuring files.

First of all, take a quick peek at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wikibot_page_restructuring which has a
little bit of background info (anyone is welcome to redo this, I was
just in a hurry).

Here is the deal:

Anyone that has signed the CLA and can already commit to _ANY_ hosted
project, can commit to the wikirename.git repo, if you can't commit to a
project on Fedora Hosted, apply for the 'wikirename' group in FAS and
within an hour of getting approved you'll be able to commit.  Sound
easy? Great!

Commit e-mails will go to this list, hopefully it won't get too
spammish.

Also note, that the files are named so:

<First Part>\<Other Parts> in the old page name gets added to <first
part>.psv

(i.e. EPEL\FAQ, would be added to epel.psv not docsproject.psv)

- Nigel
-- 
Nigel Jones <dev at nigelj.com>

_______________________________________________
fedora-wiki mailing list
fedora-wiki at lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-wiki

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Ian Weller <ianweller at gmail.com>                  http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 29 06:33:27 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 23:33:27 -0700
Subject: introduction to doc team
In-Reply-To: <1225250502.3053.418.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz>
References: <c8dad2b10810280704k59427b60gf0cee8a08a8becc1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225203973.27515.89.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<c8dad2b10810281813v2d80d6c1ybc8dfba3ceea45d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225250502.3053.418.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz>
Message-ID: <1225262007.28007.52.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 13:21 +1000, Nigel Jones wrote:

> SIG = Special Interest Group
> 
> So yeah, in the Fedora Docs case, you are entirely correct! :)

Actually ...

A SIG is a group that has a common interest, but the outcome of their
work is not critical to the production and release of the distro.

KDE, Fonts, EPEL (Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux) -- all examples
of SIGs.

The Docs Project is what is called a sub-project, where the outcome of
the work is critical to production and release of the distro.  Release
Engineering, Art, and Infrastructure are examples of sub-projects.

This is really not an elitist distinction; there is no value applied to
the definition.  The fact is, SIGs are freer to do what they think are
the right things to do.  Sub-projects are under the aegis of the Project
Board or the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee (FESCO) to perform
certain tasks, and are critical enough that Red Hat has hired people to
fill positions within the sub-projects.  

Some sub-projects, such as Docs and Art, are "soft critical", meaning if
we fell apart for a release, the release would go on without us.  That's
a fair distinction, I think.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From trac at fedorahosted.org  Wed Oct 29 15:45:02 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:45:02 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #7: Welcome Dialog - Chapter 7
 Update
In-Reply-To: <056.1a4904dc1a22d8d02140ce171d76c8bd@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.1a4904dc1a22d8d02140ce171d76c8bd@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.45c8a40ac4603a2fd0a90c96dd13fb0f@fedorahosted.org>

#7: Welcome Dialog - Chapter 7 Update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by chr1sjohnson):

  * owner:  chr1sjohnson => quaid

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/7#comment:4>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Wed Oct 29 15:45:30 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:45:30 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #8: Upgrade an Existing System -
 Chapter 8 Update
In-Reply-To: <056.971123e0bc40100bb1f938f387a40bd7@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.971123e0bc40100bb1f938f387a40bd7@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.0cae6f5618b21816eae50f24cd581f8e@fedorahosted.org>

#8: Upgrade an Existing System - Chapter 8 Update
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid    |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task     |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  major    |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content  |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:           |    Keywords:          
----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Changes (by chr1sjohnson):

  * owner:  chr1sjohnson => quaid

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/8#comment:4>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 17:34:25 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:34:25 +0000
Subject: F10 Preview release announcement
Message-ID: <1225301665.13550.114.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Jesse normally works with the Documentation team to get a release
announcement put together for test releases.  Is someone interested in
drafting one for the Fedora 10 Preview Release?  It need not be
extremely long or funny, but should reflect that:

* It's the last public stop before the final release

* The Preview Release is where we would really love testing from the
entire Fedora community

* Bugs desperately wanted in Bugzilla

* Maybe we should include a pointer to release notes on the wiki so that
community members can tell us gotchas that they expected to see and
didn't?

* Testing help can be found on #fedora-qa and fedora-test-list

I'm sure Jesse will pick up this thread and introduce any other points
he'd like to make.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 18:20:23 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:20:23 +0000
Subject: Another f-docs-commits change
Message-ID: <1225304423.13550.143.camel@localhost.localdomain>

After realizing I wasn't cutting down on the email going to moderators,
I set mailman not to notify for auto-discards.  I don't want to be a
mailman dictator, so if anyone disagrees please call me on it!

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 29 18:27:41 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:27:41 -0700
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
In-Reply-To: <1225155897.11369.53.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>
	<1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<48F53339.8040300@redhat.com>
	<1224100436.28571.199.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224165041.19681.45.camel@victoria-eth> <48FD4854.3030602@redhat.com>
	<48FD81EA.2020409@redhat.com>
	<1225155897.11369.53.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1225304861.28007.76.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 01:04 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:

> 
> What's the resolution of this topic?  When is the next joint scheduling
> meeting?

At this point, what is there left to resolve?

Is it just the details of when the Installation Guide bits are
available?

Otherwise, I've been working with both schedules for weeks and that is
the only confusion I've had.  What else am I missing?

Maybe we can just solve this via email?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 29 18:36:48 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:36:48 -0700
Subject: Another f-docs-commits change
In-Reply-To: <1225304423.13550.143.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1225304423.13550.143.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1225305408.28007.87.camel@calliope.phig.org>


On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 18:20 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> After realizing I wasn't cutting down on the email going to moderators,
> I set mailman not to notify for auto-discards.  I don't want to be a
> mailman dictator, so if anyone disagrees please call me on it!

We just don't get false-positives to the commits list, so I don't mind
auto-bit-bucket for that stuff.  Thanks for making the changes.

We've got all the kinks worked out now so we *are* getting the commits
we want, right?  We'll know it isn't working in the future if the
commits stop coming?

We cannot do that with f-docs-l because we do get legitimate email, such
as replies from non-list members who were Cc:'d on an email.  I can flip
through that page in about five minutes, searching for "Subject:" in the
body of the page and reviewing each for legitimacy.  One thing about
spam, the subject never looks right for this list.  Unless we *do* have
a bank account I forgot about ...

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Oct 29 18:37:14 2008
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:37:14 -0700
Subject: docs meeting 1900 today (29 Oct 2008)
Message-ID: <1225305434.28007.90.camel@calliope.phig.org>

Sorry for the late reminder.

See you in #fedora-meeting.
-- 
Karsten Wade, Community Gardener
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 18:52:40 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:52:40 +0000
Subject: Another f-docs-commits change
In-Reply-To: <1225305408.28007.87.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1225304423.13550.143.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1225305408.28007.87.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1225306360.13550.164.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 11:36 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 18:20 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > After realizing I wasn't cutting down on the email going to moderators,
> > I set mailman not to notify for auto-discards.  I don't want to be a
> > mailman dictator, so if anyone disagrees please call me on it!
> 
> We just don't get false-positives to the commits list, so I don't mind
> auto-bit-bucket for that stuff.  Thanks for making the changes.
> 
> We've got all the kinks worked out now so we *are* getting the commits
> we want, right?  We'll know it isn't working in the future if the
> commits stop coming?
> 
> We cannot do that with f-docs-l because we do get legitimate email, such
> as replies from non-list members who were Cc:'d on an email.  I can flip
> through that page in about five minutes, searching for "Subject:" in the
> body of the page and reviewing each for legitimacy.  One thing about
> spam, the subject never looks right for this list.  Unless we *do* have
> a bank account I forgot about ...

Heh, exactly.  With f-docs-commits, there's a really narrow range of
things that should appear there.  Given the size of the moderation queue
last time, the rate at which I've seen spam coming in (several/day
without fail), and our familiarity with what we *should* see there, I
feel pretty safe with these changes.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 18:57:14 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:57:14 +0000
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
In-Reply-To: <1225304861.28007.76.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>
	<1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<48F53339.8040300@redhat.com>
	<1224100436.28571.199.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224165041.19681.45.camel@victoria-eth> <48FD4854.3030602@redhat.com>
	<48FD81EA.2020409@redhat.com>
	<1225155897.11369.53.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1225304861.28007.76.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1225306634.13550.168.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 11:27 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 01:04 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> 
> > 
> > What's the resolution of this topic?  When is the next joint scheduling
> > meeting?
> 
> At this point, what is there left to resolve?
> 
> Is it just the details of when the Installation Guide bits are
> available?
> 
> Otherwise, I've been working with both schedules for weeks and that is
> the only confusion I've had.  What else am I missing?
> 
> Maybe we can just solve this via email?

I was looking at the schedule the other night while trying to answer a
question for John about it, and there are definitely still some
confusing dates and labels there.  I'm fine with doing it by email, but
I think that dedicated time might resolve the problems quicker.  That
way John can import those changes into any prospective timelines for
Fedora 11.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 18:57:14 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:57:14 +0000
Subject: joint schedule meeting?
In-Reply-To: <1225304861.28007.76.camel@calliope.phig.org>
References: <48F283B6.7080506@redhat.com>
	<1223932856.8602.49.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<48F53339.8040300@redhat.com>
	<1224100436.28571.199.camel@calliope.phig.org>
	<1224165041.19681.45.camel@victoria-eth> <48FD4854.3030602@redhat.com>
	<48FD81EA.2020409@redhat.com>
	<1225155897.11369.53.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1225304861.28007.76.camel@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1225306634.13550.168.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 11:27 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 01:04 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> 
> > 
> > What's the resolution of this topic?  When is the next joint scheduling
> > meeting?
> 
> At this point, what is there left to resolve?
> 
> Is it just the details of when the Installation Guide bits are
> available?
> 
> Otherwise, I've been working with both schedules for weeks and that is
> the only confusion I've had.  What else am I missing?
> 
> Maybe we can just solve this via email?

I was looking at the schedule the other night while trying to answer a
question for John about it, and there are definitely still some
confusing dates and labels there.  I'm fine with doing it by email, but
I think that dedicated time might resolve the problems quicker.  That
way John can import those changes into any prospective timelines for
Fedora 11.

-- 
Paul W. Frields
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://paul.frields.org/   -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From jkeating at redhat.com  Wed Oct 29 23:43:10 2008
From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:43:10 -0700
Subject: F10 Preview release announcement
In-Reply-To: <1225301665.13550.114.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1225301665.13550.114.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1225323790.1783.24.camel@luminos.localdomain>

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 17:34 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> 
> I'm sure Jesse will pick up this thread and introduce any other points
> he'd like to make.

That just about covered it, although this is the first look at a lot of
the artwork for a lot of people.

-- 
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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From trac at fedorahosted.org  Thu Oct 30 12:14:37 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:14:37 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #23: Add content for network login
Message-ID: <057.43d654329975fb2ea089b5ecf15f8140@fedorahosted.org>

#23: Add content for network login
-------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:  ke4qqq       |       Owner:  quaid 
     Type:  enhancement  |      Status:  new   
 Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:  f10   
Component:  Content      |     Version:  10.0.0
 Keywords:               |  
-------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
 Currently this is an ellipsis and needs to be documented. (currently
 section 16.2)
 I have seen content on this in RHEL manuals, though I can't seem to find
 this atm. Since RHEL manuals are licensed under OPL this may be nothing
 more than a copy job.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/23>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Thu Oct 30 12:24:30 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Installation Guide)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:24:30 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Installation Guide] #3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
In-Reply-To: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.552876d06cf843cfe0237237a857c8d4@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.9157eb30e1f40dc763ee62237691e02c@fedorahosted.org>

#3: New Users - Chapter 3 update
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid        |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  enhancement  |      Status:  new     
  Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:  RC-ready
 Component:  Content      |     Version:  10.0.0  
Resolution:               |    Keywords:          
--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
Comment (by ke4qqq):

 I think that you are correct it is still:

 findfs LABEL=<label>

 That change needs to be reverted I think.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/ticket/3#comment:13>
Fedora Installation Guide <https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/>
Fedora Documentation - Installation Guide



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Thu Oct 30 17:53:00 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:53:00 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #31: Internal communication included in the
 notes released for translation
Message-ID: <056.a0937b902c4bcc1e91b4336e11a62021@fedorahosted.org>

#31: Internal communication included in the notes released for translation
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:  runab    |       Owner:  quaid
     Type:  defect   |      Status:  new  
 Priority:  minor    |   Milestone:       
Component:  Content  |     Version:  10   
 Keywords:           |  
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
 The following messages in the release notes look like internal
 communication between writers:

 string # 286:

 "Content pulled from wiki; changes to match Publican; cruft removed"

 string # 292:

 "Content changes for Publican 0.37 compatibility"

 string # 296:

 "Revised for Publican compatibility"

 string # 297:

 "These Notes are Placeholders"

 string # 365:

 "This list is automatically generated. It is not a good choice for
 translation."

 string # 932:

 "This content not updated until after Preview Release occurs."

 string # 933:

 "We need to finish writing and translating the notes to know who has
 worked
 on them."


 Thanks
 Runa

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/31>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Thu Oct 30 17:55:34 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:55:34 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #32: Probable typos in the F10 preview
 release notes
Message-ID: <056.67a2e082ebc0f2473c96f86fb53ddea3@fedorahosted.org>

#32: Probable typos in the F10 preview release notes
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:  runab    |       Owner:  quaid
     Type:  defect   |      Status:  new  
 Priority:  minor    |   Milestone:       
Component:  Content  |     Version:  10   
 Keywords:           |  
---------------------+------------------------------------------------------
 The following strings probably contain some minor typos:

 string # 43:

 "All of the packages from a DVD install can occupy over 9 GB of disk
 space.
 The final install size is determined by the installing spin and the
 packages
 selected during installation. Additional disk space is required during
 installation to support the installation environment. The additional disk
 space corresponds to the size of /Fedora/base/stage2.img plus the size of
 the files in /var/lib/rpm on the installed system."

 probable correction:

 "filename" tags missing for "/Fedora/base/stage2.img" and "/var/lib/rpm".
 Ref: string 32 and 321

 string # 437:

 "There is no support for Xen or kdump for the PowerPC architecture in
 Fedora.
 32-bit PowerPC does still have a separate SMP kernel."

 probable correction:

 "32-bit PowerPC does still have a separate SMP kernel." => "32-bit PowerPC
 still has a separate SMP kernel."

 string # 581:

 "indhi" => should be "Sindhi"

 string # 993:

 "<ulink url=\"http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasCanniot\">
 ThomasCanniot</
 ulink> (translator - French)"

 correction: A space missing between "Thomas" and "Canniot"

 Thanks
 Runa

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/32>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Thu Oct 30 23:11:12 2008
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 04:41:12 +0530
Subject: Questions on 'sys admin guide'
Message-ID: <78323d480810301611k408b8caaje6bd19ccd8c3d0e1@mail.gmail.com>

In https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AGBeta#Scheduling_Tasks and
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AGBeta/Cron

no GUI tools are mentioned. Sysadmins need not necessarily use CLI
tools and in actual practice it is compulsory that they know.
So maybe the 'Additional Information' is in need of improvement.. But
the doc seems to be 'ready for editing' (?)

The first line "Fedora provides a cron facility for tasks
scheduling...." sounds odd. 'cron' is installed in the same way as in
many other distros.
Is the cron daemon a 'cron facility'? It should be rectified to
something like "The 'cron' daemon is the default CLI utility for
scheduling tasks".

 Best

A. Mani



-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 31 00:01:31 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:01:31 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #33: Issues in AGPBeta#Scheduling_Tasks
Message-ID: <056.f8efcb93367caeb43a7efde85f46819a@fedorahosted.org>

#33: Issues in AGPBeta#Scheduling_Tasks
-------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:  amani        |       Owner:  quaid
     Type:  enhancement  |      Status:  new  
 Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:       
Component:  Content      |     Version:  10   
 Keywords:               |  
-------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
 In https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AGBeta#Scheduling_Tasks and
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AGBeta/Cron
 no GUI tools are mentioned. Sysadmins need not necessarily use CLI
 tools and in actual practice it is compulsory that they know.
 So maybe the 'Additional Information' is in need of improvement.. But
 the doc seems to be 'ready for editing' (?)

 The first line "Fedora provides a cron facility for tasks
 scheduling...." sounds odd. 'cron' is installed in the same way as in
 many other distros.
 Is the cron daemon a 'cron facility'? It should be rectified to
 something like "The 'cron' daemon is the default CLI utility for
 scheduling tasks".

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/33>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 00:06:13 2008
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:06:13 +1000
Subject: Questions on 'sys admin guide'
In-Reply-To: <78323d480810301611k408b8caaje6bd19ccd8c3d0e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78323d480810301611k408b8caaje6bd19ccd8c3d0e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0810301706v4b9453b3m886f3ec40d0f22ee@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Mani A <a.mani.cms at gmail.com> wrote:
> In https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AGBeta#Scheduling_Tasks and
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AGBeta/Cron
>
> no GUI tools are mentioned. Sysadmins need not necessarily use CLI
GUI tools probably are not mentioned because it is bad practice to use
X Windows on servers.

Cheers.



From adam at physco.com  Fri Oct 31 00:21:30 2008
From: adam at physco.com (Adam D. Ligas)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:21:30 -0400
Subject: F10 Preview release announcement
In-Reply-To: <1225301665.13550.114.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1225301665.13550.114.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1225412490.14733.8.camel@Q>

OK - I didn't see any responses to this.  I opted to go for funny and a
food theme.  Funny because I like humor, and food because I'm actually
quite hungry at the moment :).

If this doesn't fit the tone of what we are looking for I have no
problem throwing it out.  I was really writing this more as an exercise
to try to write something like this.

That said, feel free to hack it up and make it look like someone who
knew what they were doing wrote it :).  I couldn't find a link to the
release notes in the wiki, so that would certainly need to be added.

- Adam

--- Fedora Preview Release Announcement Start ---

Do you smell that?  I think its almost done!

The Fedora Project is proud to announce the availability of the Fedora
10 Preview Release.  The Fedora 10 Preview Release is our last
pre-release offering before we let everyone taste the goods for real.

Doesn't it smell yummy?  We know you can't resist, and we don't want you
to!  We want everyone in the Fedora community to take an early sample
and tell us what you find.  We think the recipe is pretty good, but now
is the time to make it perfect.

And, since this is Fedora, we don't have anything to hide.  You can take
a peek at what is in the secret sauce by looking at our Release Notes in
the Fedora Project wiki.  We use 100% pure FOSS here, none of that high
fructose proprietary stuff.

We expect that many of you will get nothing but a tasty treat, but some
of you might experience something a little more bitter.  Don't fret -
all is not lost!  There is still time to improve the recipe before we
share it with the world.  Just head on over to the Fedora Bugzilla
(http://bugzilla.redhat.com) and let us know what offended your palate.

If you'd like, you can even interact with the chefs more directly.  You
can join the live staff in the kitchen by coming to #fedora-qa on
irc.freenode.net, or you can leave a message for the staff by sending an
email to the fedora-test-list.

Ready to get your free preview sample?  Go ahead and swipe one straight
from the oven - we don't mind.  Put on your favorite heat resistant
BitTorrent mitt and grab one of the following goodies.  Take as many or
as few as you like.

Thanks for tasting!

--- Fedora Preview Release Announcement End ---

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 17:34 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Jesse normally works with the Documentation team to get a release
> announcement put together for test releases.  Is someone interested in
> drafting one for the Fedora 10 Preview Release?  It need not be
> extremely long or funny, but should reflect that:
> 
> * It's the last public stop before the final release
> 
> * The Preview Release is where we would really love testing from the
> entire Fedora community
> 
> * Bugs desperately wanted in Bugzilla
> 
> * Maybe we should include a pointer to release notes on the wiki so that
> community members can tell us gotchas that they expected to see and
> didn't?
> 
> * Testing help can be found on #fedora-qa and fedora-test-list
> 
> I'm sure Jesse will pick up this thread and introduce any other points
> he'd like to make.
> 
> -- 
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: 
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 01:27:47 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 21:27:47 -0400
Subject: F10 Preview release announcement
In-Reply-To: <1225412490.14733.8.camel@Q>
References: <1225301665.13550.114.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1225412490.14733.8.camel@Q>
Message-ID: <20081031012747.GC6113@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 08:21:30PM -0400, Adam D. Ligas wrote:
> OK - I didn't see any responses to this.  I opted to go for funny and a
> food theme.  Funny because I like humor, and food because I'm actually
> quite hungry at the moment :).
> 
> If this doesn't fit the tone of what we are looking for I have no
> problem throwing it out.  I was really writing this more as an exercise
> to try to write something like this.
> 
> That said, feel free to hack it up and make it look like someone who
> knew what they were doing wrote it :).  I couldn't find a link to the
> release notes in the wiki, so that would certainly need to be added.

Not bad!  Some comments inline.

> --- Fedora Preview Release Announcement Start ---
> 
> Do you smell that?  I think its almost done!

We might want to go easy on the "smell" imagery unless we use gentler
words like "aroma" or "fragrance."  But those sound a little goofy
too...

> The Fedora Project is proud to announce the availability of the Fedora
> 10 Preview Release.  The Fedora 10 Preview Release is our last
> pre-release offering before we let everyone taste the goods for real.
> 
> Doesn't it smell yummy?  We know you can't resist, and we don't want you
> to!  We want everyone in the Fedora community to take an early sample
> and tell us what you find.  We think the recipe is pretty good, but now
> is the time to make it perfect.
> 
> And, since this is Fedora, we don't have anything to hide.  You can take
> a peek at what is in the secret sauce by looking at our Release Notes in
> the Fedora Project wiki.  We use 100% pure FOSS here, none of that high
> fructose proprietary stuff.

Beautifully done! :-)

> We expect that many of you will get nothing but a tasty treat, but some
> of you might experience something a little more bitter.  Don't fret -
> all is not lost!  There is still time to improve the recipe before we
> share it with the world.  Just head on over to the Fedora Bugzilla
> (http://bugzilla.redhat.com) and let us know what offended your palate.
> 
> If you'd like, you can even interact with the chefs more directly.  You
> can join the live staff in the kitchen by coming to #fedora-qa on
> irc.freenode.net, or you can leave a message for the staff by sending an
> email to the fedora-test-list.
> 
> Ready to get your free preview sample?  Go ahead and swipe one straight
> from the oven - we don't mind.  Put on your favorite heat resistant
> BitTorrent mitt and grab one of the following goodies.  Take as many or
> as few as you like.
> 
> Thanks for tasting!

I think overall this is just fantastic, Adam -- nice job!  Anyone want
to take an editorial swipe?

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From adam at physco.com  Fri Oct 31 01:57:23 2008
From: adam at physco.com (Adam D. Ligas)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 21:57:23 -0400
Subject: F10 Preview release announcement
In-Reply-To: <20081031012747.GC6113@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1225301665.13550.114.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1225412490.14733.8.camel@Q>
	<20081031012747.GC6113@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1225418243.14733.24.camel@Q>

I can see the "smell" thing being a little odd.  Lets try another one on
for size.

How about swapping:

"Do you smell that? I think its almost done!"

for

"We've been cooking, and now its time for a taste test!"

I think I like that one a lot more.

- Adam

On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 21:27 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 08:21:30PM -0400, Adam D. Ligas wrote:
> > OK - I didn't see any responses to this.  I opted to go for funny and a
> > food theme.  Funny because I like humor, and food because I'm actually
> > quite hungry at the moment :).
> > 
> > If this doesn't fit the tone of what we are looking for I have no
> > problem throwing it out.  I was really writing this more as an exercise
> > to try to write something like this.
> > 
> > That said, feel free to hack it up and make it look like someone who
> > knew what they were doing wrote it :).  I couldn't find a link to the
> > release notes in the wiki, so that would certainly need to be added.
> 
> Not bad!  Some comments inline.
> 
> > --- Fedora Preview Release Announcement Start ---
> > 
> > Do you smell that?  I think its almost done!
> 
> We might want to go easy on the "smell" imagery unless we use gentler
> words like "aroma" or "fragrance."  But those sound a little goofy
> too...
> 
> > The Fedora Project is proud to announce the availability of the Fedora
> > 10 Preview Release.  The Fedora 10 Preview Release is our last
> > pre-release offering before we let everyone taste the goods for real.
> > 
> > Doesn't it smell yummy?  We know you can't resist, and we don't want you
> > to!  We want everyone in the Fedora community to take an early sample
> > and tell us what you find.  We think the recipe is pretty good, but now
> > is the time to make it perfect.
> > 
> > And, since this is Fedora, we don't have anything to hide.  You can take
> > a peek at what is in the secret sauce by looking at our Release Notes in
> > the Fedora Project wiki.  We use 100% pure FOSS here, none of that high
> > fructose proprietary stuff.
> 
> Beautifully done! :-)
> 
> > We expect that many of you will get nothing but a tasty treat, but some
> > of you might experience something a little more bitter.  Don't fret -
> > all is not lost!  There is still time to improve the recipe before we
> > share it with the world.  Just head on over to the Fedora Bugzilla
> > (http://bugzilla.redhat.com) and let us know what offended your palate.
> > 
> > If you'd like, you can even interact with the chefs more directly.  You
> > can join the live staff in the kitchen by coming to #fedora-qa on
> > irc.freenode.net, or you can leave a message for the staff by sending an
> > email to the fedora-test-list.
> > 
> > Ready to get your free preview sample?  Go ahead and swipe one straight
> > from the oven - we don't mind.  Put on your favorite heat resistant
> > BitTorrent mitt and grab one of the following goodies.  Take as many or
> > as few as you like.
> > 
> > Thanks for tasting!
> 
> I think overall this is just fantastic, Adam -- nice job!  Anyone want
> to take an editorial swipe?
> 
> -- 
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: 
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 03:51:11 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 23:51:11 -0400
Subject: Cute titles
Message-ID: <ef93afcf0810302051gbb5d142h17d656bb0e809795@mail.gmail.com>

The Release Notes titles are cute and all, but in a couple cases may
be a little arch ("Are There Hideous Bugs and Terrible Tigers") for
final release.  Can we change them in those cases to something that's
easier for translators and readers?

Paul



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 11:28:21 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 07:28:21 -0400
Subject: F10 Preview release announcement
In-Reply-To: <1225418243.14733.24.camel@Q>
References: <1225301665.13550.114.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1225412490.14733.8.camel@Q>
	<20081031012747.GC6113@localhost.localdomain>
	<1225418243.14733.24.camel@Q>
Message-ID: <20081031112821.GA5763@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 09:57:23PM -0400, Adam D. Ligas wrote:
> I can see the "smell" thing being a little odd.  Lets try another one on
> for size.
> 
> How about swapping:
> "Do you smell that? I think its almost done!"
> for
> "We've been cooking, and now its time for a taste test!"
> 
> I think I like that one a lot more.

Disco!  That definitely reads better to me.

http://www.idallen.com/topposting.html 

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kam at kamsalisbury.com  Fri Oct 31 13:05:55 2008
From: kam at kamsalisbury.com (Kam)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 06:05:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: F10 Preview release announcement
Message-ID: <490b02b3.0da1260a.23a4.5d4b@mx.google.com>

-----Original Message-----

From:  "Paul W. Frields" <stickster at gmail.com>
Subj:  Re: F10 Preview release announcement
-snip
Disco!  That definitely reads better to me.

http://www.idallen.com/topposting.html 
-snip

I bottom posted this reply so my message would be clearer. I had to spend many extra minutes making the reply correct from the bottom post perspective, including snipping many lines of irrelevant text and signatures from the email. Since I took so much care, I am hoping everyone recognizes the increased value of my reply even though the reply itself is not on topic for the particuliar list and is an obvious attempt at sarcasm and humor.  I also sprained my thumb while typing this reply on my mobile phone during a crowed train ride to work when I could have been napping. I still wish my phones email client handled reply quoting better but with little personal time to contribute to a list's email threads, this palm based email client will have to do. Since my reply is to a list versus a  single person, my effort at humor is definetly prioritized to communicate a message (in this case, sarcasm) versus the traditional gramatical correctness of a personal email or business memo. 
So, to all, please excuse my correctly bottom posted reply and try to stay on topic for the list as well as be kind to others by recognizing they could be doing something else but at least took the time to reply.

--
Kam
http://kamsalisbury.com
GPG key: FAF1751E



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 13:18:35 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 09:18:35 -0400
Subject: F10 Preview release announcement
In-Reply-To: <490b02b3.0da1260a.23a4.5d4b@mx.google.com>
References: <490b02b3.0da1260a.23a4.5d4b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20081031131835.GA23173@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 06:05:55AM -0700, Kam wrote:
> I bottom posted this reply so my message would be clearer. I had to
> spend many extra minutes making the reply correct from the bottom
> post perspective, including snipping many lines of irrelevant text
> and signatures from the email. Since I took so much care, I am
> hoping everyone recognizes the increased value of my reply even
> though the reply itself is not on topic for the particuliar list and
> is an obvious attempt at sarcasm and humor.  I also sprained my
> thumb while typing this reply on my mobile phone during a crowed
> train ride to work when I could have been napping. I still wish my
> phones email client handled reply quoting better but with little
> personal time to contribute to a list's email threads, this palm
> based email client will have to do. Since my reply is to a list
> versus a single person, my effort at humor is definetly prioritized
> to communicate a message (in this case, sarcasm) versus the
> traditional gramatical correctness of a personal email or business
> memo.  So, to all, please excuse my correctly bottom posted reply
> and try to stay on topic for the list as well as be kind to others
> by recognizing they could be doing something else but at least took
> the time to reply.

Sarcasm definitely appreciated, as well as your bottom-posting. ;-)
Glad it was worth your time!

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From dbhole at redhat.com  Wed Oct 29 20:13:52 2008
From: dbhole at redhat.com (Deepak Bhole)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:13:52 -0400
Subject: Liveconnect feature page
Message-ID: <20081029201352.GB1643@redhat.com>

Hi,

I have written up a Liveconnect feature page for F10 here:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Liveconnect

If someone can take a look and give it the ok, that'd be great! Once
that is done, I will link to it from the main F10 feature page here: 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/10/FeatureList

Thanks,
Deepak



From bugzilla at redhat.com  Thu Oct 30 21:42:04 2008
From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:42:04 -0400
Subject: [Bug 462147] Tracker bug for docs modules moved away from cvs.fpo
In-Reply-To: <bug-462147-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
References: <bug-462147-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200810302142.m9ULg49j026665@bz-web1.app.phx.redhat.com>

Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
comments should be made in the comments box of this bug.


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=462147


John Poelstra <poelstra at redhat.com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           Keywords|                            |Tracking
             Status|NEW                         |ASSIGNED
                 CC|fedora-docs-list at redhat.com |




-- 
Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are on the CC list for the bug.



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 31 17:40:09 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:40:09 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #15: Check Preview Release release notes
 returned from L10n
In-Reply-To: <056.65ee6ad3541f422e782a711e5fe06403@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.65ee6ad3541f422e782a711e5fe06403@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.4954cf47e0b79938ce919f81608509bc@fedorahosted.org>

#15: Check Preview Release release notes returned from L10n
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid  |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task   |      Status:  closed  
  Priority:  major  |   Milestone:  PR-ready
 Component:  Admin  |     Version:          
Resolution:  fixed  |    Keywords:          
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/15>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 31 17:38:56 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:38:56 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #14: Push Preview Release release notes
 to L10n
In-Reply-To: <056.7b282cf05d2c06eac2b04b37eec5744b@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.7b282cf05d2c06eac2b04b37eec5744b@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.f02f0cc00a235934d03515953677e129@fedorahosted.org>

#14: Push Preview Release release notes to L10n
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid  |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task   |      Status:  closed  
  Priority:  major  |   Milestone:  PR-ready
 Component:  Admin  |     Version:          
Resolution:  fixed  |    Keywords:          
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
Changes (by pfrields):

  * status:  new => closed
  * resolution:  => fixed

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/14#comment:>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 31 17:39:54 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:39:54 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #15: Check Preview Release release notes
 returned from L10n
In-Reply-To: <056.65ee6ad3541f422e782a711e5fe06403@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.65ee6ad3541f422e782a711e5fe06403@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.dff35811042b6df033913b19094507ed@fedorahosted.org>

#15: Check Preview Release release notes returned from L10n
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid  |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task   |      Status:  closed  
  Priority:  major  |   Milestone:  PR-ready
 Component:  Admin  |     Version:          
Resolution:  fixed  |    Keywords:          
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
Changes (by pfrields):

  * status:  new => closed
  * resolution:  => fixed

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/15#comment:>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 31 18:59:03 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:59:03 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #15: Check Preview Release release notes
 returned from L10n
In-Reply-To: <056.65ee6ad3541f422e782a711e5fe06403@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.65ee6ad3541f422e782a711e5fe06403@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.a0672d597ebad1965100b58b14eaa7ee@fedorahosted.org>

#15: Check Preview Release release notes returned from L10n
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid  |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task   |      Status:  closed  
  Priority:  major  |   Milestone:  PR-ready
 Component:  Admin  |     Version:          
Resolution:  fixed  |    Keywords:          
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
Comment (by pfrields):

 Done.  F10 PR notes and existing translated material built as fedora-
 release-notes-9.92-3.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/15#comment:>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From trac at fedorahosted.org  Fri Oct 31 19:01:04 2008
From: trac at fedorahosted.org (Fedora Release Notes)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:01:04 -0000
Subject: [Fedora Release Notes] #16: Push F10 Preview Release
 fedora-release-notes package
In-Reply-To: <056.6d8ee7eac984c7abc070524bc9733f03@fedorahosted.org>
References: <056.6d8ee7eac984c7abc070524bc9733f03@fedorahosted.org>
Message-ID: <065.abf17c23e8575777b4ba23ff4894e10e@fedorahosted.org>

#16: Push F10 Preview Release fedora-release-notes package
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
  Reporter:  quaid  |       Owner:  quaid   
      Type:  task   |      Status:  closed  
  Priority:  major  |   Milestone:  PR-ready
 Component:  Admin  |     Version:          
Resolution:  fixed  |    Keywords:          
--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
Changes (by pfrields):

  * status:  new => closed
  * resolution:  => fixed

Comment:

 Pushed fedora-release-notes-9.92-3 and now fedora-release-notes-9.92-4.

-- 
Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/ticket/16#comment:>
Fedora Release Notes <https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/>
Fedora Release Notes



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 20:52:03 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:52:03 -0400
Subject: Liveconnect feature page
In-Reply-To: <20081029201352.GB1643@redhat.com>
References: <20081029201352.GB1643@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20081031205203.GB13920@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 04:13:52PM -0400, Deepak Bhole wrote:
> I have written up a Liveconnect feature page for F10 here:
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Liveconnect
> 
> If someone can take a look and give it the ok, that'd be great! Once
> that is done, I will link to it from the main F10 feature page here: 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/10/FeatureList

I just ran an editorial pass on the appropriate section in the release
notes to make them ready.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 21:02:33 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:02:33 -0400
Subject: Release Notes
Message-ID: <20081031210233.GC13920@localhost.localdomain>

I had a quick look at a few samples from the release notes content and
I think it's in need of some editorial love.  This is not a great
situation to be in post-Preview Release, because now we will end up
changing more strings for the translators.

The final drop for the updated strings (POT file) to L10n needs to
happen no later than November 6th so translators have enough time to
translate strings for the F10 final release.

If you are a good technical writer/editor, can fix common mistakes in
grammar, usage, and clarity, and have some time free to help, we
really do need it.  I'll be spending some time on this task over the
weekend but probably can't do it all myself.

I've made a further status column for F10 GA here:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats#Beat_Assignments 

So as you edit, please mark something there.  If you're unsure whether
it's *really* ready, put your initial beside the '0' mark, and someone
else will confirm for you.  Thanks in advance for helping, team!

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Fri Oct 31 21:21:02 2008
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:21:02 -0400
Subject: Release Notes
References: <20081031210233.GC13920@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <64FB21242E3841B089CA2851BBCDE949@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul W. Frields" <stickster at gmail.com>
To: "Fedora Documentation Project" <fedora-docs-list at redhat.com>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 5:02 PM
Subject: Release Notes


> So as you edit, please mark something there.  If you're unsure
> whether it's *really* ready, put your initial beside the '0' mark, and
> someone else will confirm for you.

Paul, it isn't entirely clear to me -- you want edits done on the wiki inn 
Docs/Beats/whatever?

I had noticed a number of issues with placement/ordering of things.  I think 
I got one or two in bugzilla but it wasn't clear that was the right place to 
report such things.  Unfortunately, I've now forgotten what I discovered 
*after* I put some stuff in bugzilla, so I suppose it is a rediscovery!

--McD




From dbhole at redhat.com  Fri Oct 31 21:23:15 2008
From: dbhole at redhat.com (Deepak Bhole)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:23:15 -0400
Subject: Liveconnect feature page
In-Reply-To: <20081031205203.GB13920@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20081029201352.GB1643@redhat.com>
	<20081031205203.GB13920@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20081031212315.GD22521@redhat.com>

* Paul W. Frields <stickster at gmail.com> [2008-10-31 16:53]:
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 04:13:52PM -0400, Deepak Bhole wrote:
> > I have written up a Liveconnect feature page for F10 here:
> > 
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Liveconnect
> > 
> > If someone can take a look and give it the ok, that'd be great! Once
> > that is done, I will link to it from the main F10 feature page here: 
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/10/FeatureList
> 
> I just ran an editorial pass on the appropriate section in the release
> notes to make them ready.
> 

Cool, does this mean I can link to it from the FeatureList page?

Deepak

> -- 
> Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
>   gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
>   http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
>   irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug




From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 21:24:39 2008
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:24:39 -0400
Subject: Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <64FB21242E3841B089CA2851BBCDE949@Aidan>
References: <20081031210233.GC13920@localhost.localdomain>
	<64FB21242E3841B089CA2851BBCDE949@Aidan>
Message-ID: <20081031212439.GE13920@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 05:21:02PM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul W. Frields" <stickster at gmail.com>
> To: "Fedora Documentation Project" <fedora-docs-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 5:02 PM
> Subject: Release Notes
>
>
>> So as you edit, please mark something there.  If you're unsure
>> whether it's *really* ready, put your initial beside the '0' mark, and
>> someone else will confirm for you.
>
> Paul, it isn't entirely clear to me -- you want edits done on the wiki inn 
> Docs/Beats/whatever?

Yes, correct.  That is the source of the Release Notes, and content
should be edited at the source.

> I had noticed a number of issues with placement/ordering of things.  I 
> think I got one or two in bugzilla but it wasn't clear that was the right 
> place to report such things.  Unfortunately, I've now forgotten what I 
> discovered *after* I put some stuff in bugzilla, so I suppose it is a 
> rediscovery!

If there are bugs in Bugzilla we should handle those as well.  Thanks
for taking the time to file them; it really does help.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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