From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Dec  2 23:13:28 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 18:13:28 -0500
Subject: Fedora Docs Meeting Reminder
Message-ID: <4B16F498.8020201@christensenplace.us>

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REMINDER: There will be a Fedora Docs Meeting today at 0001 UTC. The
agenda can be found at:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Thu Dec  3 04:35:19 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 23:35:19 -0500
Subject: Docs Meeting 2009-12-03 IRC log
Message-ID: <4B174007.4050500@christensenplace.us>

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00:00:29 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
00:00:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Dec  3 00:00:29 2009 UTC.  The
chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at
http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
00:00:30 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea
#link #topic.
00:00:35 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
00:00:36 * Sparks
00:00:41 * danielsmw
00:00:53 * jjmcd .
00:01:03 * bcotton is here
00:01:21 * ianweller
00:02:05 <Sparks> Wow!  Lots of people here tonight!
00:02:33 <jjmcd> Mssr. Landmann indicated he was swamped today so I'm
not sure we'll see him
00:02:45 <bcotton> wow it's like every party i've ever hosted
00:03:16 <Sparks> jjmcd: Figures... just when we have complaints on his
work... :)
00:03:25 <jjmcd> heh
00:04:49 <Sparks> speak of the devil
00:04:50 <jjmcd> Hey look
00:05:25 <Sparks> Okay, let's get started
00:05:42 <Sparks> #topic Docs Project Leader Elections
00:06:03 <Sparks> #link
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Leader_Elections
00:06:28 <Sparks> So would anyone else like to nominate anyone to head
up this awesome project?
00:07:05 <jjmcd> I heard a rumor about ianweller
00:07:11 <jjmcd> somewhere
00:07:14 <Sparks> jjmcd: You know, I heard that too
00:07:21 <ianweller> i'm honored but i have zero time
00:07:26 <ianweller> it's my senior year in high school :P
00:07:27 <Sparks> must not be a rumor anymore if more than me heard it
00:07:40 * Sparks thought the senior year was the slack off year
00:07:42 <jjmcd> Well, at least it's non-negative like the rest of us
00:08:02 * danielsmw confirms Sparks assertion
00:08:03 <Sparks> heh
00:08:54 <ianweller> :)
00:08:59 <ianweller> i would slack off but my extra curriculars are insane
00:09:04 <Sparks> Okay so am I the only one up for this job?
00:09:18 <jjmcd> I think so
00:09:19 <danielsmw> *nod*
00:09:20 * Sparks thinks ianweller will have some other kind of excuse
for next year
00:09:33 <jjmcd> Seems to say not too many are upset with the job you
are doing
00:09:57 <Sparks> Okay... all in favor of continuing to have me head
this monster up.
00:10:04 <jjmcd> +1
00:10:09 <bcotton> +1
00:10:10 <danielsmw> +1
00:10:10 <ianweller> +1
00:10:28 <ianweller> unless you really don't want it :P
00:11:05 <Sparks> and then what?
00:11:13 <danielsmw> then we're headless.
00:11:20 <jjmcd> give it back to stickster
00:11:23 <Sparks> we're close to that now
00:11:29 <Sparks> where is stickster_afk anyway?
00:11:38 <danielsmw> he's afk...
00:11:44 <danielsmw> :)
00:11:45 <jjmcd> I think he is still vacationing
00:11:47 <Sparks> okay... so I guess I'm hired on for another year.
00:11:54 <ianweller> jjmcd: no, he's been back
00:12:05 <Sparks> #action Sparks to remain Docs Leader for another year.
00:12:09 <jjmcd> Didn't he tweet like he had a couple more days he was
going to try to play with the kids
00:12:30 <Sparks> ya
00:15:56 <jjmcd> So Sparks is steeling himself with another brandy
00:16:29 <Sparks> jjmcd: SPC just issued a PDS for NC where my folks
lived.  Had to give them a call.
00:16:39 <Sparks> Okay...  well thanks for the vote of support...  I think.
00:16:55 <jjmcd> just days before SRD, too
00:17:29 * Sparks makes a note to talk to stickster_afk about his pay
raise now that he's tenured.
00:17:50 <Sparks> #topic Release Notes
00:18:05 <Sparks> jjmcd: So you want to talk about Yelp v. HTML
00:18:07 <jjmcd> I bet he would go for a 10% hike if you ask nice
00:18:14 <jjmcd> Yeah, here's the deal
00:18:22 <jjmcd> We currently use yelp to display RNs
00:18:42 <jjmcd> This gives us automatic language selection and
integration with the rest of gnome help
00:18:59 <jjmcd> yelp has some limits, tho, and it doesn't help our KDE
users
00:19:23 <jjmcd> Jeff Fearn suggested some javascript so we could get
the lang selection in html
00:19:50 <jjmcd> I had to fix his script, but it does work.  We can get
automatic language selection of RNs in both Gnome and KDE
00:20:05 <jjmcd> Downside is that it is no longer integrated with the
rest of help
00:20:25 <jjmcd> Upsides it gets us KDE and gets away from some yelp
clumsiness.
00:21:00 <Sparks> jjmcd: Should we also discuss what shaunm (from GNOME)
said?
00:21:00 <jjmcd> I wanted to get peoples thoughts on that .. basically a
separate menu choice under Documentation for RNs, under System in KDE
00:21:07 <jjmcd> Yes,
00:21:44 <jjmcd> shaunm indicated that the current langiage selection
scheme in yelp will be changed, and we might be able to integrate html
too, in yelp 3.0
00:21:50 <jjmcd> but I have no idea the timeline
00:22:12 <Sparks> jjmcd: He also wants to have a meeting in March to
discuss documentation...
00:22:26 <Sparks> so this might be a way to have a single file go into
GNOME and KDE similarly.
00:22:44 <jjmcd> Of course, we have no idea what the Publican/Yelp
issues are in the new scheme.  And yes, he wants to get together to get
something that may be even more cool
00:22:59 <Sparks> I'm going to speculate here...  there may be fixes
coming soon in Yelp that may fix some of the problems we've seen recently.
00:23:15 <Sparks> and then there is the idea that abadger1999 had
00:23:19 <jjmcd> With the html, the only thing we add for KDE is a
.desktop file
00:23:26 <jjmcd> which was
00:23:36 <Sparks> which is to provide a separate, non-packaging means,
to getting documentation to the desktop
00:23:51 <Sparks> probably through PackageKit
00:24:07 <jjmcd> Oh yeah.  I got to admit I saw that as something a
little far out, but certainly we ought to explore it.
00:24:14 <abadger1999> (Note: my idea will need coding work to see the
light of day)
00:24:37 <jjmcd> At this point it is hard to see what we might get that
would go beyond rpm that would be useful
00:24:48 <jjmcd> But then I'm an old fogey with limited imagination
00:24:56 <Sparks> abadger1999: Ya... but definitely worth mentioning!
00:25:21 * Sparks whacks jjmcd with an imagination stick
00:25:27 <Tsagadai-netbook> Sparks, is there any reason why we can't use
RPMs?
00:25:27 <jjmcd> Some time back we talked abuot a separate rpm repo
because we might want to have a LOT of packages
00:25:51 <rudi> FWIW, in RHEL, we add a .desktop file for GNOME too
00:26:03 <Sparks> Tsagadai-netbook: There are some issues to using
RPMs... and two ways to package the languages... and pros and cons for eac
00:26:13 <Sparks> s/eac/each
00:26:17 <jjmcd> Tsagadai-netbook, I think the discussion was that if we
looked specifically at content, there might be additional useful
functionality
00:26:27 <rudi> Which is, I guess, RHEL's way of getting around the "no
longer integrated with the rest of help" issue
00:26:57 <rudi> (whether stand-alone documentation belongs in help is a
different (and religious!) question)
00:27:15 <jjmcd> rudi, I agree that one might make the argument either way
00:27:34 <jjmcd> I am always concerned when I talk about changing how
things look to the user
00:28:19 <jjmcd> Personally, I would like to see the guides in yelp,
too.  But I don't want to write all the .omf's
00:28:31 <Sparks> I, personally, would like to get everyone in the know
in a room together and hash out this entire issue
00:29:03 <rudi> Sparks -- with pointy sticks?
00:29:04 <jjmcd> Second choice would be a doc menu with the Jeff
language solution (and smarter ,.desktop files for the guides)
00:29:38 <Sparks> rudi: pointy sticks not required.  There are so many
ideas it's hard to get them all out asyncronously or via IRC
00:30:06 <jjmcd> Well, if we do it in yelp I think we should also do it
in khelpcenter, and I'm not so sure I want to do that, either
00:31:05 <jjmcd> Sparks, you got that right.  What we need is some sort
of web page where everyone could put their ideas
00:31:11 <rudi> I'm still working on a proof-of-concept package for the
Install Guide to see whether Yelp can render a doc of that size and
complexity at all
00:31:20 <Sparks> Anyone know when the next FUDCon NA will be?
00:31:29 <jjmcd> hmmmm
00:31:33 <Sparks> jjmcd: Like... ummm... a wiki?
00:31:44 <jjmcd> Maybe something like that, yeah
00:31:50 <Sparks> does yelp == khelpcenter?
00:32:02 <jjmcd> functionally similar
00:32:13 <Sparks> same file types?
00:32:24 <jjmcd> WHAT?   Are you nuts?
00:32:26 <Sparks> errr
00:32:40 <Sparks> Can I take the same file and have each render the file
similarly?
00:33:05 <Sparks> I'm guessing not
00:33:09 <jjmcd> Acually, I think khelpcenter is looking for html, yelp
wants xml
00:33:11 <Sparks> which goes on my shopping list for March
00:34:08 <jjmcd> So are you going to come to chi in march?
00:34:26 <jjmcd> Still pretty cold in the windy city
00:34:31 <Sparks> jjmcd: If I must.  I think I can take the train for <$180
00:34:51 <jjmcd> how many days?
00:35:17 <Sparks> 1
00:35:27 <Sparks> ish
00:35:31 <jjmcd> surprised, I figgered it would be 3
00:35:35 <Sparks> nah
00:35:46 <Sparks> it's a short(er) trip
00:36:34 <Sparks> Of course I haven't received my official invitation or
found a golden ticket in a candy bar, yet
00:37:03 <Sparks> IMO, we need to be working with Yelp upstream to see
what's coming down.
00:37:12 <jjmcd> shaunm didn't say exactly where yet, either
00:37:28 <Sparks> If it's going to be a complete drag then we can go
with html on the desktop
00:37:46 <jjmcd> I would hope something close to ORD
00:37:58 <jjmcd> With Jeff's code the HTML isn't all that awful
00:38:00 <Sparks> but if we could integrate better into Yelp and
khelpcenter then I feel that it might be better that way.  Just my
opinion, though
00:38:10 <jjmcd> I agree with that
00:38:47 <jjmcd> Some people don't like that with yelp you get yelp's
rendering, rather than playing with your own stylesheets
00:38:54 <jjmcd> But as far as I'm concerned, its one less thing to mess
with
00:40:04 <Sparks> Yelp helps with accessibility, though
00:40:28 <jjmcd> yep
00:40:51 <Tsagadai-netbook> Sparks, if you have a travel budget I'll
happily come and visit :)
00:40:51 <Sparks> rudi: Are you in cahoots with khelpcenter upstream?
00:41:05 <rudi> Sparks, no
00:41:19 <Sparks> Tsagadai-netbook: A travel budget?  Yeah, it's 10% of
whatever stickster_afk pays me
00:41:22 <rudi> But I *can* confirm that the help docs are in html
00:41:30 <Sparks> Tsagadai-netbook: not sure you can get very far on
that, though
00:41:43 <rudi> Just looking at them now in /usr/share/doc/HTML/
00:42:10 <Sparks> rudi: cool.  It'd be nice if both were using the same
format
00:42:24 <Sparks> maybe we should get both to implement the other format
they aren't supporting
00:42:41 <rudi> Agreed. GNOME should just fork HelpCenter
00:43:11 <Tsagadai-netbook> I was joking :)
00:43:17 <Sparks> Tsagadai-netbook: :)
00:43:24 <Sparks> Tsagadai-netbook: You can still come, though
00:43:34 <jjmcd> It is interesting.  Yelp is more appealing because the
index doesn't point to hundreds of help files.  For some reason, KDE
seems to insist on a manual even if its empty
00:43:37 <Tsagadai-netbook> I intend to at some stage
00:43:50 * rudi would love to get to one too :)
00:43:59 * Tsagadai-netbook has not been to that continent yet :)
00:44:17 * jjmcd hasn't been to rudi's continent
00:44:35 * Sparks wants to visit AU
00:44:42 <Sparks> but is scared he might stay
00:45:00 <Sparks> Okay... just to recap
00:45:04 <jjmcd> been to europe and asia but hasn't yet been to any of
those upside-down continents
00:45:32 <Sparks> Plan A is to work with upstream Yelp and possibly
khelpcenter to work out the issues we are having
00:45:40 <Sparks> Plan B is to just put HTML on the desktop
00:45:43 <Sparks> is there a Plan C?
00:45:55 <Tsagadai-netbook> I'd say plan B is better :)
00:46:05 <Tsagadai-netbook> we know browsers work
00:46:07 <jjmcd> Well, providing for khelpcenter IS html for now
00:46:21 <jjmcd> Tsagadai-netbook, we had serious doubts this morning
00:46:30 <rudi> We should also find out what Xfce uses
00:46:35 <Tsagadai-netbook> jjmcd, about browsers?
00:46:39 <jjmcd> And based on Jeff's recent comment to my bug, maybe still
00:46:39 <Sparks> yeah and Sugar
00:46:48 <rudi> Since that seems to be getting some traction
00:46:52 <jjmcd> Tsagadai-netbook, yeah
00:46:55 <Tsagadai-netbook> Moblin doesn't have working help on fedora :)
00:47:14 <Tsagadai-netbook> so we can skip it for now :)
00:47:35 <rudi> LXDE?
00:47:42 <Tsagadai-netbook> jjmcd, I missed the "morning" discussion.
What's wrong with browsers?
00:48:24 <jjmcd> We were having inconsistencies in detecting the
language browser to browser.  Sounds like it is still a problem on RHEL,
but for Fedora I think I have a workaround
00:49:00 <jjmcd> Still have quite a few to test, tho.  Certainly we will
fail on Mosaic and Dillo and probably others
00:49:25 <jjmcd> Tsagadai-netbook, we have like a dozen browsers on Fedora
00:49:41 <Tsagadai-netbook> jjmcd, do we need to support the obscure ones?
00:49:57 <Tsagadai-netbook> or just file bugs with the projects that
they don't display properly
00:50:13 <jjmcd> Well, if someone chooses Dillo as their default I can't
say I have a lot of sympathy for them
00:50:28 * Tsagadai-netbook notes there are a dozen browsers on fedora
but they all have a marketshare smaller than IE4
00:50:34 <jjmcd> But Mosaic, heck, that is THE classic
00:50:48 <Tsagadai-netbook> works on elinks and lynx
00:50:56 <Tsagadai-netbook> what more could people want?
00:51:18 <jjmcd> Well, Jeff wasn't very receptive to making lynx work on
rhel
00:51:52 <jjmcd> see BZ#538159
00:52:05 <Sparks> .bug 538159
00:52:07 <bugbot_> Bug
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=538159 low, low,
- ---, jfearn, NEW, Publican should package multiple languages
00:52:07 <zodbot> Sparks: Bug 538159 Publican should package multiple
languages - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=538159
00:52:08 <bugbot_> Bug 538159: low, low, ---, jfearn, NEW, Publican
should package multiple languages
00:52:21 <Sparks> #link
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=538159
00:52:23 <bugbot_> Bug 538159: low, low, ---, jfearn, NEW, Publican
should package multiple languages
00:53:01 <Sparks> doh!
00:53:25 <jjmcd> bugbot, zodbot, these computers are taking over
00:53:50 <Sparks> jjmcd: Is there a standard for rendering languages
like what we're asking it to do?
00:54:14 <Sparks> If there is and they aren't meeting it then we can
file bugs against those browsers for it.
00:54:26 <jjmcd> It seems like the issue is around the DOM and how it
interacts with JS.  Every browser interprets JS differently
00:54:49 <jjmcd> I haven't even attempted IE, I be that will be a whole
new experience
00:55:16 * Sparks doesn't like js
00:55:23 <jjmcd> But since I am looking at Fedora help menu items, I
don't think IE will be a big issue
00:55:31 <jjmcd> nor I, Sparks
00:56:03 <jjmcd> But I bet if I said <SCRIPT LANG="vbasic" I wouldn't
get very far
00:56:28 <Sparks> *snicker*
00:56:54 <jjmcd> In these days of AJAX, tho, you can't avoid it
00:57:59 <Sparks> Okay.  well I think we are spinning our wheels at this
point.
00:58:11 <jjmcd> Sparks,  do you want an rpm so you can study it?
00:58:15 <Sparks> we need to get this information into a wiki page so we
can see it all.
00:58:29 <Sparks> a multi lang rpm?  sure
00:58:39 <jjmcd> #action jjmcd to summarize discussion on wiki
00:58:54 <jjmcd> oops you didn't turn me on, oh well
00:59:32 <Sparks> I think it did it anyway.  I don't think there is any
feedback on that command
00:59:36 <Sparks> #chair jjmcd
00:59:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: Sparks jjmcd
00:59:43 <jjmcd> #action jjmcd to summarize discussion on wiki
01:00:13 <jjmcd> huh - wasn;t it #action?  Must be we don't want to do that
01:00:14 <Sparks> jjmcd: I'd like the wiki page to show something along
the lines of each plan... and an area to put PROs and CONs... thoughts?
01:00:27 <jjmcd> yeah
01:00:38 <jjmcd> And pehaps fantasies for yelp 4.0
01:00:46 <Sparks> ya
01:01:37 <Sparks> Just a quick poll...  If we had a FAD at an upcoming
FUDCon... could people make Boston, Raleigh, or a point on the west
coast (of the US) easier?
01:02:29 * Sparks thinks everyone went to sleep...
01:02:40 <jjmcd> depends on the time of year
01:02:56 <jjmcd> You gotta be nuts to go to Boston in the winter,
Raleigh in the summer
01:03:46 <Sparks> Raleigh is great in the summer...
01:03:59 <jjmcd> although I have been known to go to Edmonton in the
winter and Houston in the summer so there's no accounting
01:05:08 <jjmcd> Why not something temperate like NYC or Philly or
central like Chi
01:05:17 <Sparks> I don't know
01:05:41 <Sparks> They have traditionally been in Boston.  My first one
was in Raleigh a couple of years ago.  It rocked.
01:05:50 <bcotton> West Lafayette is beautiful year round :-)
01:05:53 <jjmcd> NYC, Chi, Denver, Mineapolis, Atlanta - easy to get to
01:06:50 <Sparks> Okay...  just open thoughts from someone who can't
control the tides much less the next FUDCon
01:06:57 <jjmcd> hehe
01:07:03 <Sparks> Anything else on the release notes before moving on?
01:08:22 <Sparks> #topic docs.fedoraproject.org
01:08:33 <Sparks> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=543540
01:08:34 <bugbot_> Bug 543540: medium, low, ---, eric, ASSIGNED,
Usability of http://docs.fedoraproject.org/  is poor
01:08:53 <Sparks> So there is a complaint against the way our webpage is
designed
01:09:17 <jjmcd> You can't fight the Schneemann curve
01:10:10 <Sparks> so has Mizmo evaluated the latest work?
01:11:15 <Sparks> just out of curiosity
01:11:32 <rudi> We would *love* to be able to do away with manually
selecting languages
01:11:40 <Sparks> yes
01:11:51 <Sparks> which is something that Zikula was supposed to help us
with
01:11:53 <rudi> And inheriting that from the Fedora start page or from
the user's browser
01:11:59 <rudi> Absoluitely
01:12:32 <Sparks> Is this something we want to deal with or just put
that effort in getting Zikula up and running
01:13:27 <rudi> My inclination is "wait for Zikiula"
01:13:30 <jjmcd> Will zikula answer the problem or just make it harder
to fix?
01:13:39 <rudi> But I'll take a closer look at the suggestion
01:13:51 <Sparks> I think it will answer the problem but if not it will
change what we have to fix
01:14:05 <Sparks> rudi: do you want to grab the ticket?
01:14:11 <rudi> OK
01:14:29 <Sparks> either way we will not have this problem by F13...
knock on wood
01:14:52 <rudi> Oh G-d please yes
01:15:03 <jjmcd> dreamer
01:15:34 <Sparks> Hopefully next week we'll have some more information
on Zikula
01:17:46 <Sparks> Okay...  moving on
01:18:00 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status
01:18:18 <Sparks> Anyone have anything they'd like to talk about on
their guides?
01:18:50 <Sparks> I will note that the accessibility guide (english) got
pushed to update repo today
01:20:21 <jjmcd> Don't like those other languages?
01:20:42 <Sparks> I'm waiting for the Transifex upgrade...
01:21:01 <jjmcd> wuss
01:21:23 <Sparks> Okay... THEY are waiting for...
01:23:24 <Sparks> I might suggest we go the old way if we get close to F13
01:23:51 <Sparks> I think radsy got his photos squared away in the
wireless guide so that should be coming to a desktop near you soon
01:24:21 <Sparks> anything else?
01:24:47 * ke4qqq is here, but way late
01:24:57 <jjmcd> WOW
01:25:32 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Nah, just in time!
01:25:40 <Sparks> #topic New Guides
01:25:46 <Sparks> Any new guides out there?
01:26:32 <Sparks> #topic Status on CMS (Zikula)
01:26:41 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula#Module_status
01:26:49 * ke4qqq knew I should have kept my mouth shut :)
01:26:56 <Sparks> :)
01:27:02 <Sparks> No!  Glad you are here!
01:27:19 <Sparks> I think there is to be some work done this weekend at
FUDCon.
01:27:49 <ke4qqq> yep
01:28:11 <ke4qqq> they have worked on cleaning up some of the licesning
stuff in a few modules recently
01:28:55 <Sparks> excellent
01:29:08 <Sparks> So you'll have it rolled out and ready by 2010?
01:29:22 <ke4qqq> well insight at least :)
01:29:48 <ke4qqq> but that's a big chunk of the work for docs.
01:30:38 <Sparks> what's the delta?
01:30:52 <ke4qqq> while I am not able to go to fudcon - (thursday and
friday travel problems) but I'll be participating sat and sun remotely.
01:31:16 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Cool
01:31:56 * Sparks should probably do the same
01:34:05 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Do we know what the delta is between Insight
and what we want?
01:35:34 <ke4qqq> just modules largely
01:35:49 <Sparks> Are those modules built?
01:35:53 <ke4qqq> and essentially that we are using more of them than
they are
01:36:00 <ke4qqq> about 65/35 at the moment
01:36:08 <ke4qqq> everything that isn't built is a licensing issue
01:36:17 <ke4qqq> though those are becoming fewer by the minute
01:36:34 <Sparks> cool
01:36:41 <ke4qqq> well week perhaps
01:36:52 <Sparks> :)
01:37:10 <Sparks> Has the remote instructions posted somewhere for the
FUDCon?
01:37:27 <Sparks> Have the remote instructions been posted somewhere for
the FUDCon?
01:37:50 <ke4qqq> not that I know of
01:38:10 <Sparks> ok
01:38:24 <Sparks> anything else on the Zikula homefront?
01:38:50 <ke4qqq> nothing from me - aside from the fact 1.2.0 was
released a few weeks ago
01:39:01 <ke4qqq> and cures a lot of problems we've asked for fixes for
01:39:12 <ke4qqq> among other things
01:39:25 <Sparks> cool
01:39:36 <Sparks> Okay, moving on
01:39:41 <Sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
01:40:26 <Sparks> #link
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora%20Documentation&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED
01:40:57 <Sparks> I'm not going to go through all the outstanding
tickets but if you can close some please do so!
01:41:33 <Sparks> We've been doing pretty well, lately.
01:41:44 <Sparks> #topic All other business
01:41:51 <Sparks> Okay, anything else?
01:42:08 <ianweller> i wanna praise the docs team this release
01:42:11 <ianweller> we did some really cool stuff
01:42:20 <Sparks> agreed
01:42:21 <ianweller> i know i wasn't involved in a lot of it, mostly
zikula (slightly) and relicensing
01:42:54 <Sparks> We doubled the number of guides we had from F11 and
completely moved to Publican which we've been trying to do for a while.
01:43:40 <ianweller> and got ourselves off a content island. woo! :)
01:43:46 <Sparks> :)
01:43:46 * ke4qqq notes he just got paged out for a server failure
01:43:59 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Bah...  we know better than that
01:44:14 <ke4qqq> +1 the docs team this release did awesome work - I
wish I could have participated more, you guys made it look easy and did
great work
01:44:17 <ke4qqq> Sparks: I wish
01:44:38 * Sparks notes that the AU team made it look easy for us
01:45:19 <Sparks> Okay, anything else before I close out this very
productive meeting?
01:46:43 <ianweller> oh
01:46:56 <ianweller> if you ahven't read it on f-announce-list, there's
an infrastructure move this weekend
01:47:00 <ianweller> er
01:47:01 <ianweller> next weekend
01:47:09 <Sparks> yeah... BIG move
01:47:18 <ianweller> moving most of our core servers
01:47:27 <ianweller> wiki will be down for sure, i think CVS is too, and
accounts system might be down
01:47:33 <ianweller> so. just a friendly reminder :)
01:47:46 <ianweller>
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2009-December/msg00000.html
01:48:25 <Sparks> why is the move occuring?
01:48:36 <ianweller> so that infra can expand more in the PHX location
01:48:37 <ianweller> mostly
01:48:59 <ianweller> "This move is planned to be completed on December
15th and
01:48:59 <ianweller> will ultimately provide better hosting facilities
and room for growth.
01:49:59 <ianweller> Sparks: i'm done :)
01:50:21 <Sparks> cool
01:50:26 <Sparks> Okay, anyone have anything else?
01:51:34 <Sparks> Okay, thanks everyone for coming out today.
01:51:37 <Sparks> #endmeeting

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From eric at christensenplace.us  Thu Dec  3 04:36:25 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 23:36:25 -0500
Subject: Docs Meeting 2009-12-03 Summary
Message-ID: <4B174049.4030900@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

===================================================================================================
#fedora-meeting: Docs Project Meeting - Agenda:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
===================================================================================================


Meeting started by Sparks at 00:00:29 UTC. The full logs are available
at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2009-12-03/fedora-meeting.2009-12-03-00.00.log.html
.



Meeting summary
- ---------------
* Roll Call  (Sparks, 00:00:35)

* Docs Project Leader Elections  (Sparks, 00:05:42)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Leader_Elections
    (Sparks, 00:06:03)
  * ACTION: Sparks to remain Docs Leader for another year.  (Sparks,
    00:12:05)

* Release Notes  (Sparks, 00:17:50)
  * LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=538159
    (Sparks, 00:52:21)
  * ACTION: jjmcd to summarize discussion on wiki  (jjmcd, 00:58:39)
  * ACTION: jjmcd to summarize discussion on wiki  (jjmcd, 00:59:43)

* docs.fedoraproject.org  (Sparks, 01:08:22)
  * LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=543540   (Sparks,
    01:08:33)

* Guide Status  (Sparks, 01:18:00)

* New Guides  (Sparks, 01:25:40)

* Status on CMS (Zikula)  (Sparks, 01:26:32)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula#Module_status   (Sparks,
    01:26:41)

* Outstanding BZ Tickets  (Sparks, 01:39:41)
  * LINK:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora%20Documentation&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED
    (Sparks, 01:40:26)

* All other business  (Sparks, 01:41:44)
  * LINK:

http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2009-December/msg00000.html
    (ianweller, 01:47:46)

Meeting ended at 01:51:37 UTC.




Action Items
- ------------
* Sparks to remain Docs Leader for another year.
* jjmcd to summarize discussion on wiki
* jjmcd to summarize discussion on wiki




Action Items, by person
- -----------------------
* jjmcd
  * jjmcd to summarize discussion on wiki
  * jjmcd to summarize discussion on wiki
* Sparks
  * Sparks to remain Docs Leader for another year.
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
- ---------------------------
* Sparks (156)
* jjmcd (98)
* ianweller (25)
* rudi (20)
* ke4qqq (20)
* Tsagadai-netbook (16)
* danielsmw (7)
* zodbot (4)
* bcotton (4)
* bugbot_ (4)
* abadger1999 (1)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Thu Dec  3 19:18:18 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 14:18:18 -0500
Subject: Documentation Desktop Presentation
Message-ID: <1259867898.19995.13.camel@Aidan>

Last night at our meeting we had a discussion of options for presenting
installed documentation.  By way of background, we have traditionally
provided the Release Notes and the About Fedora document in yelp.  A few
other documents were placed in the /usr/share/doc/HTML directory prior
to Fedora 11, but no links were provided to those documents.  Some were
actually in html, others were plain text.  As of Fedora 12, all the
documents are available in html, html-single and pdf, but only the
Release Notes and About Fedora are installed by default, and only a
handful (maybe one) are available as installable packages.

Publican packages documents as a single language per package, which can
be extremely clumsy if one wants multiple languages.  However, the
package creation is totally automatic and hence appealing.  Release
Notes have been traditionally packaged manually, and that has continued
since converting to Publican.

There are also delivery alternatives, but I see them as a separate
issue, so I have focused solely on the presentation under the assumption
we are including documentation that has been installed via traditional
Fedora installation vehicles.

I've put together the presentation options as I see them at:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop_Documentation_Presentation_Options

I am sure there are other possibilities, and there must be advantages
and disadvantages to all the options that I overlooked.  I would ask you
to review the wiki page and ADD TO IT.  Document issues and advantages
of any of the schemes that you can recognize, and also ideas for other
approaches.

Thanks
--McD




From mclasen at redhat.com  Thu Dec  3 21:02:41 2009
From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:02:41 -0500
Subject: Documentation Desktop Presentation
In-Reply-To: <1259867898.19995.13.camel@Aidan>
References: <1259867898.19995.13.camel@Aidan>
Message-ID: <1259874161.1904.14.camel@planemask>

On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 14:18 -0500, John J. McDonough wrote

> I've put together the presentation options as I see them at:
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop_Documentation_Presentation_Options
> 
> I am sure there are other possibilities, and there must be advantages
> and disadvantages to all the options that I overlooked.  I would ask you
> to review the wiki page and ADD TO IT.  Document issues and advantages
> of any of the schemes that you can recognize, and also ideas for other

Hey, sorry for jumping in here, but just some quick notes:

1) If one-package-per-language is an issue, you can easily have a
meta-package per guide whose sole purpose is to pull in all the
localizations of that guide.

2) yelp handles html mostly fine, from what I can see in quick testing.



From r.landmann at redhat.com  Thu Dec  3 22:51:49 2009
From: r.landmann at redhat.com (Ruediger Landmann)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:51:49 +1000
Subject: Documentation Desktop Presentation
In-Reply-To: <1259867898.19995.13.camel@Aidan>
References: <1259867898.19995.13.camel@Aidan>
Message-ID: <4B184105.8010807@redhat.com>

On 12/04/2009 05:18 AM, John J. McDonough wrote:
> I am sure there are other possibilities, and there must be advantages
> and disadvantages to all the options that I overlooked.  I would ask you
> to review the wiki page and ADD TO IT.  Document issues and advantages
> of any of the schemes that you can recognize, and also ideas for other
> approaches.
>    

Hey John, I've made a few small edits; most particularly to point out 
that separating stand-alone documentation from application help can be 
either an advantage or disadvantage, depending on how you look at it.

But what I really wanted to say here was a huge thank you for putting 
this page together, and congratulations on achieving what looks to me 
like a very fair and balanced summary of the approaches and their 
various advantages and disadvantages. You rock!

Cheers

Rudi



From poelstra at redhat.com  Fri Dec  4 01:06:10 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 17:06:10 -0800
Subject: Fedora 13 Draft Schedule
Message-ID: <4B186082.8070501@redhat.com>

Greetings,

Below are some links to the schedule I've drafted for Fedora 13. Most of 
it is automatically generated based on how we built the Fedora 12 schedule.

Here are a few different views:
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-tasks.html
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-and-trans-tasks.html

In some cases the tasks may not line up correctly for Fedora 13 which 
I'll need to know about.  In others you may want to make adjustments 
based on how things went during Fedora 12.  That is perfectly fine too :)

I would like to review this in person at FUDCon on Sunday (2009-12-06) 
during one of the hackfest sessions.  In the meantime feel free to reply 
with obvious errors or changes you'd like me to make before we meet.

Look forward to talking soon.

John



From mel at redhat.com  Sat Dec  5 20:14:37 2009
From: mel at redhat.com (Mel Chua)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 15:14:37 -0500
Subject: Simon's FUDCon zikula session notes
Message-ID: <4B1ABF2D.6090400@redhat.com>

Simon Birtwistle's talk, just completed, on zikula - a CMS that's going 
to be used by Docs and Marketing and News (in various ways for each). It 
was awesomeness, and the crowd was fun.

http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fudcon-room-2/2009-12-05/fudcon-room-2.2009-12-05-19.04.html

Max and I had this transcribing-tag-team-thing going on here, so the 
full logs are pretty complete (WOO! LOGS!) - we ended with a game plan 
for the hackfest on Sunday and Monday, which I'll post shortly.

--Mel



From mel at redhat.com  Sat Dec  5 20:35:24 2009
From: mel at redhat.com (Mel Chua)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 15:35:24 -0500
Subject: Zikula hackfest gameplan
Message-ID: <4B1AC40C.6090405@redhat.com>

Our gameplan for the next two days: everything is at 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_hackfest.

Please ask questions, point out holes, etc. - we literally *just* came 
up with this. This is also where you can sign up to help. 
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_hackfest#Who.27s_coming)

I think that Sparks and ke4qqq were planning on spending some time with 
us, which would be *awesome* - and that mmcgrath will be dropping by at 
the end of both days to check in - but I'm not sure what people's plans 
actually are, so I just took a guess for me/Simon/Pascal to start. 
(Simon, Pascal, feel free to edit this to something more correct and/or 
preferential....)

I defaulted to #fedora-mktg as our IRC channel for the day, because I 
know we're going to have remote participants, but would be glad to move 
it to a more neutral place if there's a better location for this (if 
#fedora-logistics were populated, I'd do it there).

Comments? Thoughts? Halp? Yay! We'll keep you updated.

--Mel



From mel at redhat.com  Sat Dec  5 20:42:09 2009
From: mel at redhat.com (Mel Chua)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 15:42:09 -0500
Subject: Zikula hackfest gameplan
Message-ID: <4B1AC5A1.5000905@redhat.com>

 > Our gameplan for the next two days: everything is at
 > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_hackfest.

And I've blogged it here: 
http://blog.melchua.com/2009/12/05/fudcon-zikula-hackfest-the-gameplan/

Hope to see folks online or in person tomorrow! More hackfestin' details 
coming when we have them.

--Mel



From david at gnsa.us  Sat Dec  5 23:22:29 2009
From: david at gnsa.us (David Nalley)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:22:29 -0500
Subject: Zikula hackfest gameplan
In-Reply-To: <4B1AC40C.6090405@redhat.com>
References: <4B1AC40C.6090405@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0912051522y68492c8fo1f809a196c7e5222@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Mel Chua  wrote:
> Comments? Thoughts? Halp? Yay! We'll keep you updated.
>

So I see at:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_hackfest#Production_.28Simon.29

that we are tackling the the remaining packaging stuff.
Can we get a list together, broken down by implementation (Insight,
FWN, Docs) and order of importance the packages that are either in
progress or need tackling.



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From mel at redhat.com  Sun Dec  6 15:36:24 2009
From: mel at redhat.com (Mel Chua)
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 10:36:24 -0500
Subject: Zikula hackfest details
Message-ID: <4B1BCF78.7040400@redhat.com>

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_hackfest

If you're joining us online, look in #fedora-mktg for pcalarco (Pascal), 
itbegins (Simon) or mchua (myself) and we'll get you started.

If you're joining us in person, head to room 4 in the SEQ building - 
we'll be there all day.

Today's goal: get Fedora Insight up on staging and migrate FWN's 
workflow to it. Hoo-yah!

--Mel



From simon at zikula.org  Sun Dec  6 16:11:10 2009
From: simon at zikula.org (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 16:11:10 -0000
Subject: Zikula hackfest details
In-Reply-To: <4B1BCF78.7040400@redhat.com>
References: <4B1BCF78.7040400@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <003701ca768e$bb576160$32062420$@org>

We're now hanging out in #fudcon-room-4 on freenode, and logging the whole
day's conversation with zodbot.

Simon

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fedora-docs-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-docs-list-
> bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Mel Chua
> Sent: 06 December 2009 15:36
> To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base;
> For participants of the Documentation Project; fedora-news-
> list at redhat.com
> Subject: Zikula hackfest details
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_hackfest
> 
> If you're joining us online, look in #fedora-mktg for pcalarco
> (Pascal),
> itbegins (Simon) or mchua (myself) and we'll get you started.
> 
> If you're joining us in person, head to room 4 in the SEQ building -
> we'll be there all day.
> 
> Today's goal: get Fedora Insight up on staging and migrate FWN's
> workflow to it. Hoo-yah!
> 
> --Mel
> 
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.95/2546 - Release Date:
> 12/05/09 08:13:00



From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Dec  7 17:31:06 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 12:31:06 -0500
Subject: System Outage this weekend
Message-ID: <4B1D3BDA.10005@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mike sent out a message[1] last week discussing the system outage of
many Fedora systems this coming weekend.  While it appears that
docs.fp.o will remain up during this evolution, CVS and the wiki will not.

So if anyone is working on any documentation that needs to get pushed
for the weekend you should have it uploaded to CVS no later than 0600
UTC on 12 Dec 2009.

[1]
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2009-December/msg00000.html


- --Eric
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From bugzilla at redhat.com  Mon Dec  7 18:20:48 2009
From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:20:48 -0500
Subject: [Bug 505938] Need to package MediaAttach.
In-Reply-To: <bug-505938-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
References: <bug-505938-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200912071820.nB7IKmKC000467@bz-web2.app.phx.redhat.com>

Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
comments should be made in the comments box of this bug.


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=505938


itbegins <itbegins at fedoraproject.org> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |itbegins at fedoraproject.org




--- Comment #13 from itbegins <itbegins at fedoraproject.org>  2009-12-07 13:20:46 EDT ---
I'm thinking we just purge the badly licensed stuff from the package and see
how far we get.  This module does a lot of different stuff, and we'll only be
using a small subset of the features on Fedora sites.  I don't know if there's
a better short term solution to these problems.

-- 
Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.



From bugzilla at redhat.com  Mon Dec  7 21:52:04 2009
From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:52:04 -0500
Subject: [Bug 505938] Need to package MediaAttach.
In-Reply-To: <bug-505938-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
References: <bug-505938-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200912072152.nB7Lq4vl019021@bz-web1.app.phx.redhat.com>

Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
comments should be made in the comments box of this bug.


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=505938





--- Comment #14 from Eric Christensen <eric at christensenplace.us>  2009-12-07 16:52:03 EDT ---
So it appears that these are the pieces that need to be removed:

*Highslide JS                            http://vikjavev.no/highslide/
        License: Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 2.5 License
(http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/)

*JavaScript Image Cropper UI            
http://www.defusion.org.uk/code/javascript-image-cropper-ui-using-prototype-scriptaculous/
        Copyright (c) 2006, David Spurr (www.defusion.org.uk)
        All rights reserved.


*JW FLV Player                          
http://www.jeroenwijering.com/?item=JW_FLV_Player
        License: Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 2.0 License
(http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/)

So if we can just yank those pieces out then we should be good to go. 
Everything else is LGPL or GPL+.

-- 
Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Dec  7 23:02:58 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 04:32:58 +0530
Subject: Fedora 13 Alpha Release Notes
Message-ID: <4B1D89A2.1060005@fedoraproject.org>

Hi

I have put up a very early draft at

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Alpha_release_notes

Please add important changes to the release notes. This would include
new features, notable changes in behavior from the previous release,
things that need explicit testing and any known issues.

Rahul



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Dec  9 00:15:20 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:15:20 -0800
Subject: bug reports considered good for our health
Message-ID: <20091209001520.GC3994@calliope.phig.org>

I'm really pleased at the quantity _and_ quality of bug reports coming
in for Fedora 12 documentation.  (I seem to be on a number of QA
checks for various guides, which I'm glad about.)

We should run the statistics with bugzilla, but I'm getting a gut
feeling about this release based on what I've seen so far.  Anyone
else notice this?

* Overall, more bugs across a few main documents (Installation Guide,
  Release Notes) and a few others (IIRC).  This means:

  * More people are reading the content; 
  * They care enough to file bugs;
  * Bug reports are a needed part of improving open content, it's the
    open source way;
  * Bug reports are a sign of a healthy and engaged community.

* The quality of the bug reports is up.  They are mostly associated
  with the correct component, are clear in what they find wrong, and
  offer solutions and fixes.  In fact, just now I saw a bug report[1]
  that included a patch, which prompted me to write this email.  We've
  received a few bugs in translations, including correction
  suggestions.

* The component owners have been highly responsive.  The recent
  improvements around bugzilla process, bug clean-up, and bug
  maintenance are showing quality and attention from this team.  You
  are making Fedora Docs look really good!

Considering that we have more than doubled the number of guides for
the release, with l10n to match, I reckon we actually have _fewer_
bugs per guide.

If anyone cares to know what our real health statistics are around bug
reports, I could get together with you and any others in IRC for a
few hours and draw what we need from bugzilla.

- Karsten

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=545577
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Dec  9 00:22:08 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:22:08 -0500
Subject: bug reports considered good for our health
In-Reply-To: <20091209001520.GC3994@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20091209001520.GC3994@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <4B1EEDB0.4080404@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 12/08/2009 07:15 PM, Karsten Wade wrote:
> I'm really pleased at the quantity _and_ quality of bug reports coming
> in for Fedora 12 documentation.  (I seem to be on a number of QA
> checks for various guides, which I'm glad about.)

I agree.  We have been getting quite a few bug reports in and the
authors have been churning out the fixes.  Excellent work!

> 
> 
> * The component owners have been highly responsive.  The recent
>   improvements around bugzilla process, bug clean-up, and bug
>   maintenance are showing quality and attention from this team.  You
>   are making Fedora Docs look really good!

The feedback text in Publican almost hold the users hand into showing
them the way to file the bugs which is most helpful.

> If anyone cares to know what our real health statistics are around bug
> reports, I could get together with you and any others in IRC for a
> few hours and draw what we need from bugzilla.

It would probably be a good idea to take a look at the data in BZ.
Numbers are always fun to look at (to me).

> 
> - Karsten

- --Eric
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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Wed Dec  9 05:00:22 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:00:22 -0500
Subject: bug reports considered good for our health
In-Reply-To: <20091209001520.GC3994@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20091209001520.GC3994@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0912082100m714674d6h3f4504254c4aa37a@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Karsten Wade  wrote:
> I'm really pleased at the quantity _and_ quality of bug reports coming
> in for Fedora 12 documentation.  (I seem to be on a number of QA
> checks for various guides, which I'm glad about.)
>
> We should run the statistics with bugzilla, but I'm getting a gut
> feeling about this release based on what I've seen so far.  Anyone
> else notice this?
>
> * Overall, more bugs across a few main documents (Installation Guide,
>  Release Notes) and a few others (IIRC).  This means:

I have definitely noticed an uptick in volume for the IG and RN.
In addition, the bugs are higher quality IMO, and the reporters are
going to more lengths to offer suggested changes (I even received a
Docbook patch for a bug filed today, which you referenced below)


>
>  * More people are reading the content;
>  * They care enough to file bugs;
>  * Bug reports are a needed part of improving open content, it's the
>    open source way;
>  * Bug reports are a sign of a healthy and engaged community.
>
> * The quality of the bug reports is up.  They are mostly associated
>  with the correct component, are clear in what they find wrong, and
>  offer solutions and fixes.  In fact, just now I saw a bug report[1]
>  that included a patch, which prompted me to write this email.  We've
>  received a few bugs in translations, including correction
>  suggestions.
>
> * The component owners have been highly responsive.  The recent
>  improvements around bugzilla process, bug clean-up, and bug
>  maintenance are showing quality and attention from this team.  You
>  are making Fedora Docs look really good!
>
> Considering that we have more than doubled the number of guides for
> the release, with l10n to match, I reckon we actually have _fewer_
> bugs per guide.
>
> If anyone cares to know what our real health statistics are around bug
> reports, I could get together with you and any others in IRC for a
> few hours and draw what we need from bugzilla.

It would be very interesting to see those statistics, though I am
unsure what we can infer from it. I think bugs are a bit of a double
edged sword.
On the one hand it means we have an engaged community, who cares
enough to spend time filing bugs.
On the other hand it means there is something wrong with the documentation.

So have we screwed up more, or have a more passionate community, or both?
In my mind either is ok, as long as we are responsive to the bugs.


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From bugzilla at redhat.com  Wed Dec  9 18:45:14 2009
From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:45:14 -0500
Subject: [Bug 503780] Fedora 12 Documentation Release BLOCKER
In-Reply-To: <bug-503780-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
References: <bug-503780-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200912091845.nB9IjEs8005789@bz-web1.app.phx.redhat.com>

Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
comments should be made in the comments box of this bug.


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=503780


Eric Christensen <eric at christensenplace.us> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|ASSIGNED                    |CLOSED
         Resolution|                            |CURRENTRELEASE




-- 
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From bugzilla at redhat.com  Wed Dec  9 18:46:04 2009
From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:46:04 -0500
Subject: [Bug 503780] Fedora 12 Documentation Release BLOCKER
In-Reply-To: <bug-503780-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
References: <bug-503780-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200912091846.nB9Ik4ux005975@bz-web1.app.phx.redhat.com>

Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
comments should be made in the comments box of this bug.


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=503780


Bug 503780 depends on bug 500474, which changed state.

Bug 500474 Summary: F12 Release Notes Target
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=500474

           What    |Old Value                   |New Value
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|ASSIGNED                    |CLOSED
         Resolution|                            |CURRENTRELEASE



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From poelstra at redhat.com  Wed Dec  9 21:32:16 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:32:16 -0800
Subject: Need feedback on Fedora 13 schedule
Message-ID: <4B201760.9020703@redhat.com>

Hi,

http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-tasks.html

I am still in need of feedback on the documentation schedule for Fedora 
13 and so far I have not heard from anyone.  I also asked on IRC today 
and didn't get a response.

I already have feedback from the translation team, but I can't do 
anything with it until I know the documentation schedule is good.  Can 
someone let me know what your plans/timeline are for reviewing the 
drafted Fedora 13 schedule?

I know there are parts of it that are definitely wrong, but I don't want 
to invest lots of time guessing at the fixes if you plan to make other 
significant changes.

Thanks,
John





From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Dec  9 22:49:49 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:49:49 -0500
Subject: Fedora Docs Meeting Reminder
Message-ID: <4B20298D.5040608@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

REMINDER: There will be a Fedora Docs Meeting today at 0001 UTC. The
agenda can be found at:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Dec  9 23:58:09 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:58:09 -0500
Subject: Docs Installation Guide - Submission and Download problem
In-Reply-To: <6d4237680912040051k15738b01x4b310e36a47eb83d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B0B62F8.5090601@redhat.com> <4B14BEDA.9030504@gmail.com>
	<4B15C3A7.2020405@redhat.com>
	<6d4237680912012347t5f53cc1apba4e5682465b3e84@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B174117.7070606@redhat.com>
	<6d4237680912040051k15738b01x4b310e36a47eb83d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091209235809.GH9741@victoria.internal.frields.org>

On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 10:51:59AM +0200, Dimitris Glezos wrote:
> 2009/12/3 Ruediger Landmann <r.landmann at redhat.com>:
> > On 12/02/2009 05:47 PM, Dimitris Glezos wrote:
> >>
> >> Rudi, you could clear the cache and refresh it.
> >>
> >
> > Really? How do I do that? I'd thought that a button like that would be useful for the
> > maintainer of a project
> 
> This button is available on the web interface on component pages for
> maintainers.
> 
> > , not least of which because changes to a POT in the repo don't automatically
> > trigger a refresh (of course!) while submissions of updated POs do.
> 
> This functionality has been available in Transifex for a while, it's
> just that Fedora is still running an old (and unmaintained) version.

Diego posted the summary of what needs to be done here:

https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1455#comment:10

In short, we need a few people to step up and help with the process
Diego posted.

We already do have a L10n Admin group[1] that should be overseeing and
managing this process, to ensure a successful rollout for translators.
Their charter is to maintain the infrastructure for translators, and
this clearly falls into that area.  I've heard from two of the people
in that group that they can't do all this work themselves, but haven't
heard from Ankit or Asgeir about it.

What I would suggest is that Diego should help with bullet #4 on that
list, as it probably requires the greatest degree of specific
technical knowledge, in this case a database upgrade.  The rest of the
work on that ticket could likely be done entirely by the remainder of
the team, maybe with limited input from Diego.  It would be helpful
for Asgeir or Ankit to help manage this set of tasks in collaboration
with Diego, who has appropriate package access.  (I'm cc'ing Ignacio
directly as well, so he can add appropriate CVS access for any other
people who are willing to help maintain the EL-5 package used on our
Infrastructure.)

Without help, it's doubtful there will be a new Transifex rolled out,
and that means some of the problems people are experiencing will
continue, even though they're already fixed upstream.  I'm cc'ing the
docs, devel, and infrastructure lists to see if any of the people in
areas well served by translators are willing to help see this project
through.  It's time to pull together, guys, and see if we can help the
translators who give so much across the whole Fedora Project.

* * *
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Tools#Website

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Dec 10 00:22:13 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 19:22:13 -0500
Subject: Fedora Docs Meeting Reminder
In-Reply-To: <4B20298D.5040608@christensenplace.us>
References: <4B20298D.5040608@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <20091210002213.GL9741@victoria.internal.frields.org>

On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 05:49:49PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> REMINDER: There will be a Fedora Docs Meeting today at 0001 UTC. The
> agenda can be found at:
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting

The Docs schedule for F13 is a pending item, and should be discussed
tonight at the meeting as well.  If the Docs team wants to set up a
separate meeting for that, please note that and let John Poelstra
know, so we can get the schedule set.

Everyone that had problems meeting deadlines for F13, and I know there
were a few -- that's not a problem, but we need that feedback so we
can better tune the schedule to reflect a realistic approach to
getting the documentation to translators and then published in a way
that helps users and doesn't overly burden contributors.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug



From eric at christensenplace.us  Thu Dec 10 01:02:43 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 20:02:43 -0500
Subject: F13 Docs Schedule Meeting
Message-ID: <4B2048B3.2050004@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'd like to setup a meeting for early next week between the translators
and the docs folks to work out the schedule for the F13 release.

I was thinking Monday between 1800 UTC and 2000 UTC or between 2300 UTC
and 0300 UTC (Tuesday).

Would there be a time in there that we could meet?

Thanks,
Eric
Docs Project Lead
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Thu Dec 10 01:03:31 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 20:03:31 -0500
Subject: Docs Meeting 2009-12-10 IRC log
Message-ID: <4B2048E3.2070103@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

00:00:00 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
00:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Dec 10 00:00:00 2009 UTC.  The
chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at
http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
00:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea
#link #topic.
00:00:07 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
00:00:08 * Sparks
00:00:14 * Sparks
00:00:27 * jjmcd .
00:00:55 * radsy .
00:02:56 * Sparks gives everyone a few more minutes to arrive.
00:03:37 <radsy> rudi not in the office yet
00:04:06 <Sparks> slacker
00:04:55 <Sparks> Okay, let's get started.
00:05:00 <Sparks> #topic Release Notes
00:05:09 <Sparks> Discussion of Yelp vs. HTML
00:05:30 <Sparks> jjmcd: Anything else on this?
00:05:42 <jjmcd> bah
00:05:46 <jjmcd> wrong window
00:05:53 <jjmcd> we've always done it that way
00:06:11 <jjmcd> To tell the truth, that is probably the largest reason
we are still using yelp
00:06:26 <jjmcd> Now, it does put our release notes a little more up front
00:06:52 <jjmcd> And now that we have a way to select language for html,
yelp loses a big advantage it had
00:06:56 <Sparks> I wonder if people read stuff that is on their system
or if they read it online.
00:07:07 <jjmcd> I dunno
00:07:16 * Sparks would really like to get limesurvey reviewed so he
could answer some of these questions.
00:07:38 <jjmcd> We used to put a ton of stuff in /usr/share/doc with no
links or anything, so it seems pretty unlikely that someone would find it
00:07:44 <Sparks> Yes
00:07:47 <Sparks> which is not good.
00:08:15 <jjmcd> Although, I guess in the distant past I would rummage
around to see what is there ... don't know how many others do that tho
00:08:52 <jjmcd> radsy, FYI, I sent Sparks a prog to package a multilang
publican html
00:08:55 <Sparks> I'm against blindly putting documentation on someone's
computer and not linking to it from the GUI somehow
00:09:12 <jjmcd> Well, not everyone is such a huge fan of the gui
00:09:25 <jjmcd> ANd EVERY application has unlinked dox in /usr/share/doc
00:09:35 <jjmcd> SO you do know where to look
00:09:37 <jjmcd> or should
00:09:50 <Sparks> Well, if you aren't using a gui then you already know
your way around /usr
00:10:01 <jjmcd> I would hate to have a menu item for every sub of
/usr/share/doc and /usr/share/doc/HTML
00:10:16 <jjmcd> There are literally thousands of them
00:10:21 <Sparks> I'm talking about OUR documentation
00:10:37 <jjmcd> So knowing where they are is almost as good as having a
menu choice, and less clutter
00:10:40 <jjmcd> Well, yeah
00:10:48 <jjmcd> I like having RN on the menu
00:11:01 <Sparks> It would be a horrible experience for someone to
install the admin guide and then have it not show up on the desktop
somewhere
00:11:30 <jjmcd> I dunno, I install things I don't expect to see on the
desktop
00:11:36 <Sparks> Well, I have mixed feelings about Yelp versus HTML
00:11:54 <jjmcd> Yeah, there's a little to be said fo each
00:11:58 <Sparks> Yelp is good at what it does... but only does it for
one of our desktops
00:12:25 <jjmcd> No reason not to run yelp from kde tho.  We just don't
put the link there
00:12:59 <jjmcd> Altho maybe it pulls in a lot of crap like every KDE
app does on a gnome system
00:13:18 <Sparks> yeah
00:13:34 <Sparks> Well, I hope to see some promise in the March
meeting... if that happens
00:13:40 <jjmcd> It would be good if rudi was here
00:14:22 <jjmcd> That would really be good.  But even assuming it is all
rebecca at sunnybrook farms, there are still advantages to html
00:14:45 <jjmcd> One prob w/yelp is it reads all the xml files when you
open the doc
00:15:08 <jjmcd> It displays the first file before it is done, but on a
big doc, it keeps the cpu pinned for a long time
00:15:47 <Sparks> I think that was something that was going to be remedied
00:16:17 <jjmcd> Well, it might help, but it also doesn't do the index,
which is now pretty important on release notes
00:16:49 <jjmcd> Because the yum groups make no sense, that is the only
way you can find things
00:17:09 <Sparks> Have we filed bugs upstream for all these problems?
00:17:45 <jjmcd> I've filed bugs on Fedora for those apps, but not
upstream.  I assume that is the maintainer's role
00:18:34 <Sparks> Okay.  As long as we'
00:18:48 <Sparks> they haven't been filed...  :)
00:19:47 <Sparks> Okay, anything else on this topic?
00:20:01 <jjmcd> I did update the doc on that packaging app a couple
times on fedorapeople dunno if you saw that
00:20:15 <jjmcd> added some pictures to hopefully make a little more sense
00:20:44 <Sparks> cool.  I haven't had a chance to surf over there lately.
00:21:08 <jjmcd> I need to find some guides to play with
00:21:20 <jjmcd> but most either don't build or have no translations
00:22:34 <Sparks> Yeah
00:22:49 <Sparks> Okay, moving on...
00:22:54 <Sparks> #topic Status on CMS (Zikula)
00:23:00 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula#Module_status
00:23:20 <Sparks> Apparently a lot of work was completed at FUDCon.
00:23:31 * Sparks wishes ke4qqq could be here tonight.
00:23:52 <Sparks> I finally got menutree squared away and pushed.
00:24:10 <Sparks> But it was a little premature as ke4qqq hasn't gotten
zikula 1.2 out the door, yet.  Opps.
00:24:19 <radsy> is there a live demo of this somewhere still?
00:24:46 <Sparks> I'm working MediaAttach, though, and am planning on
yanking out the bad bits and packaging the rest.  We can see, then, if
it breaks.
00:24:56 <Sparks> radsy: mchua I think has one up for Insight.
00:26:52 <Sparks> Anyone have any questions?
00:27:47 <Sparks> Okay, moving on...
00:27:53 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status
00:28:00 <jjmcd> what happened to 543540
00:28:05 <Sparks> Anyone have any guides they want to discuss?
00:28:11 <Sparks> .bug 543540
00:28:12 <buggbot> Bug
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=543540 medium, low,
- ---, rlandman, ASSIGNED, Usability of http://docs.fedoraproject.org/  is
poor
00:28:12 <zodbot> Sparks: Bug 543540 Usability of
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ is poor -
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=543540
00:28:14 <buggbot> Bug 543540: medium, low, ---, rlandman, ASSIGNED,
Usability of http://docs.fedoraproject.org/  is poor
00:28:34 <jjmcd> was on the schedule b4 zik only reason i asked
00:28:43 <Sparks> jjmcd: I thought that was from last week so I just
removed it.
00:28:52 <jjmcd> ah,ok
00:29:06 <radsy> it's likely to change again before zikula?
00:29:12 <Sparks> jjmcd: Unless you have something further on it.  I
don't really see a resolution to it until Zikula is fielded.
00:29:29 <jjmcd> I see Paul wanted us to discuss the sked but that will
take some time before we can have a meaningful discussion
00:29:38 <radsy> i find it pretty usable as it is
00:29:46 <jjmcd> I expect zikula won't help
00:29:49 <Sparks> I find it MUCH more useable .
00:30:20 <jjmcd> Altho, I like the original idea of the initial single
dropdown for a language
00:31:16 <radsy> imo the focus should be on getting zikula up instead of
another re-design
00:31:38 <radsy> re-arranging deck chairs...
00:31:42 <jjmcd> I tend to agree, but if anything, zikula will make that
harder
00:32:18 <jjmcd> The problem is what it should look like.  At best
Zikula will be equivalent to raw php.  More likely it will be a constraint
00:32:54 <jjmcd> So I'm not so sure the redesign is wasted.  Although,
having Zikula in  hand may avoid some dead ends
00:33:08 <Sparks> I think we should get some of the design folks in on
this dicussion once we get Zikula up and running
00:33:23 <jjmcd> Yes, I think that is the best plan
00:33:24 <Sparks> Right now we don't have the base setup to build on
00:33:43 <Sparks> Okay, any guide issues?
00:33:45 <jjmcd> Assuming we will EVER see Zikula up and running
00:34:06 <Sparks> #topic New Guides
00:34:12 <Sparks> Any new guides coming out>?
00:34:32 <jjmcd> I made a little more headway on ARG
00:34:37 <Sparks> ARG?
00:34:38 <jjmcd> OH, yes
00:34:39 <Sparks> Oh
00:34:44 <Sparks> Amateur Radio Guide
00:34:50 <jjmcd> convert -alpha on
00:34:58 <jjmcd> Makes the colors right in pdf
00:35:04 <Sparks> cool
00:35:12 <radsy> i'm kicking around the idea of a solaris -> fedora/rhel
sysadmin/migration guide
00:35:31 <radsy> just to highlight differences
00:35:59 <Sparks> radsy: You getting this from the new Sun Admin -> RHCE
class I saw today?
00:36:06 <radsy> but RHEL duties for already existing stuff are taking a
lot of my time right now
00:36:12 <radsy> no Sparks?
00:36:18 <Sparks> ha
00:36:34 <Sparks> Yeah, there's a new Sun admin -> RHCE class out there...
00:36:49 <radsy> damn it, beaten ;)
00:37:01 * Sparks hasn't touched a lot of Solaris boxes lately.
00:37:23 <Sparks> Okay... moving onward...
00:37:23 <jjmcd> Didn't that run on PDP-4's or something?
00:37:26 <radsy> i used to admin it, still use it at home
00:37:48 <Sparks> #topic F13 Schedule
00:38:08 <Sparks> Okay... I think we need to come up with a slightly
different plan that the F12 release
00:38:46 <Sparks> I didn't like the devel -> translation freeze -> devel
- -> wash, rinse, repeat
00:39:02 <Sparks> We should be constantly pushing pot files
00:39:04 <Sparks> IMO
00:39:24 <radsy> has there been any movement on a way to get breaking
info from devs more easily, ie. lessons learned from the F12/PackageKit
fiasco?
00:39:34 <jjmcd> How does L10N feel about that
00:39:34 <Sparks> If we have thousands of lines of text that need to be
translated we shouldn't be dumping it on the translators for a week
00:40:01 <Sparks> jjmcd: Not sure... but if we get a paragraph done now
why not?
00:40:25 <Sparks> radsy: Not sure.
00:40:32 <jjmcd> Well, they like to see those percentages.  Might be a
disincentive to have a moving target
00:41:02 <Sparks> I said it last release and didn't really follow
through but we really need to have a drop dead date to get all the text in.
00:41:32 <jjmcd> radsy, one problem is that people have conversations in
groups and assume everyone else is read in
00:41:36 <Sparks> You knew these changes were happening months ago, you
shouldn't come running up to use three hours before the release with it
00:42:07 <jjmcd> And really, probably everything gets discusses on
dev-list, but who can wade through all the crap
00:42:18 <Sparks> jjmcd: I think transifex 0.7 will help alot.
Translations will be broken down by chapter...
00:42:47 <jjmcd> And that will come along how long after zikula?
00:42:50 <Sparks> If you know something is changing you should write up
a quick paragraph and submit a ticket on it.  simple as that.
00:43:06 * jjmcd has a problem depending on vaporware
00:43:07 <Sparks> WTHK
00:43:09 <radsy> it might only take someone to maintain some sort of
changelog of significant changes from last release
00:43:33 <jjmcd> The feature list is supposed to be that
00:44:10 <jjmcd> And different people have different perceptions of
"significant"
00:44:25 <Sparks> maybe we should define significant
00:44:39 <jjmcd> The PackageKit thing was just a minor change to a
policy, no code changed at all
00:44:59 <Sparks> a minor change with big implications
00:45:17 <jjmcd> Depends on your perspective
00:45:50 <Sparks> I'm pretty sure everyone was in agreement that it had
big implications
00:46:11 <jjmcd> A change to fldigi might be a real big deal to me, but
to most people?
00:46:38 <jjmcd> We look at changes to MySQL as a big deal, but in
reality, how many people actually use it?
00:46:54 <Sparks> Who's to say that the fldigi change shouldn't end up
in the RN?
00:47:05 <jjmcd> Well, yeah.
00:47:33 <jjmcd> It's always a judgement call as to what is significant,
tho, and depending on where you are sitting, things change a lot
00:47:45 <Darkedge> Any chance of someone doing an RPM Packages lesson?
00:48:27 <jjmcd> Whatever happened to the classroom?  I havent heard
anything lately
00:48:30 <Sparks> jjmcd: So we should include as much stuff as we can.
00:48:47 <radsy> Darkedge,
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/drafts/rpm-guide-en/ ?
00:48:48 <jjmcd> Except that make it hard to find anything and pisses
off the translators
00:48:51 <Sparks> jjmcd: We have a space for the Amateur Radio beat writer.
00:49:05 <jjmcd> yep
00:49:28 <jjmcd> And we have a growing ham community in fedora, too
00:49:37 <Sparks> Well...  this has gone way off topic.
00:49:41 <Darkedge> radsy: I just don't find that as good as hanging in
#fedora-classroom because if I don't understAND something, What am I to do?
00:50:06 <Sparks> Darkedge: #fedora-devel is a good place to ask questions
00:50:29 <jjmcd> There have been some RPM classes in the past, but
really, the thing to do is to make a couple of packages
00:50:30 <Sparks> So my thought is that we push pot files early and often
00:50:49 <Sparks> We push our documentation early and often
00:50:50 <jjmcd> We probably should chat with Bimitris about that
00:50:58 <jjmcd> Dimitris - damn typing
00:51:05 <Sparks> we shouldn't be waiting for the very last second to
get all this done
00:51:14 <Sparks> which leads to going over a deadline
00:51:25 <jjmcd> Well, that wasn't our problem this time
00:51:34 * ianweller is kinda halfway here
00:51:45 <jjmcd> Somehow our schedule had us making pots and rpms on the
same day
00:51:50 <radsy> sorry Darkedge - I had no idea that channel existed.
00:52:05 <jjmcd> ANd that day was two weeks too late
00:52:34 <jjmcd> SO yeah, I need to have a long hard look at John's
schedule, and keep looking at it
00:52:37 <Sparks> yes
00:53:02 <Sparks> I'd really like to pull in the L10N folks and really
talk about options.
00:53:22 <Sparks> If they think we can't change and it is what it is...
then they won't know any different
00:53:46 <Sparks> But I don't like it when groups start pulling the
translations out of transifex so no one can use them.
00:53:52 <jjmcd> Yes, that would be good.  Should have thought of this a
couple weeks ago so someone could have sat down at FUDcon, I think
glezos was tere
00:54:14 <jjmcd> Yeah, that was kinda pissy
00:54:18 * Sparks ponders the ability to have a gathering in about three
months
00:54:26 <jjmcd> But you know ... French
00:54:35 <Sparks> *snicker*
00:55:29 <Sparks> Anyway, lets have a break-off meeting early next week
to discuss the schedule.
00:55:30 <jjmcd> I think we SHOULD let L10N know they are getting
Publican pots ofr F13.  If Tfx can't deal with them then they can deal
with the conversions
00:55:33 <Sparks> poelcat: ^^^
00:55:45 <jjmcd> Might light a fire under the 0.7 effort
00:55:46 <Sparks> I agree
00:56:45 <Sparks> #action Sparks to send a message to L10N and Logistics
about a docs planning meeting for early next week
00:57:26 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to review poelcat's schedule and come up
with a recommendation before the meeting
00:57:34 <Sparks> Okay, anything else on the F13 schedule?
00:57:36 <jjmcd> roger that
00:57:49 <Sparks> jjmcd: Sanity check... :)
00:58:16 <Sparks> Okay, moving on...
00:58:22 <Sparks> #topic Other business
00:58:25 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else?
00:59:10 <Sparks> Anything at all?
00:59:55 <Sparks> Okay...  thanks for coming out everyone!
00:59:58 <Sparks> #endmeeting

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From eric at christensenplace.us  Thu Dec 10 01:03:58 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 20:03:58 -0500
Subject: Docs Meeting 2009-12-10 Summary
Message-ID: <4B2048FE.6050702@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

===================================================================================================
#fedora-meeting: Docs Project Meeting - Agenda:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
===================================================================================================


Meeting started by Sparks at 00:00:00 UTC. The full logs are available
at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2009-12-10/fedora-meeting.2009-12-10-00.00.log.html
.



Meeting summary
- ---------------
* Roll Call  (Sparks, 00:00:07)

* Release Notes  (Sparks, 00:05:00)

* Status on CMS (Zikula)  (Sparks, 00:22:54)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula#Module_status   (Sparks,
    00:23:00)

* Guide Status  (Sparks, 00:27:53)

* New Guides  (Sparks, 00:34:06)

* F13 Schedule  (Sparks, 00:37:48)
  * ACTION: Sparks to send a message to L10N and Logistics about a docs
    planning meeting for early next week  (Sparks, 00:56:45)
  * ACTION: jjmcd to review poelcat's schedule and come up with a
    recommendation before the meeting  (Sparks, 00:57:26)

* Other business  (Sparks, 00:58:22)

Meeting ended at 00:59:58 UTC.




Action Items
- ------------
* Sparks to send a message to L10N and Logistics about a docs planning
  meeting for early next week
* jjmcd to review poelcat's schedule and come up with a recommendation
  before the meeting




Action Items, by person
- -----------------------
* jjmcd
  * jjmcd to review poelcat's schedule and come up with a recommendation
    before the meeting
* Sparks
  * Sparks to send a message to L10N and Logistics about a docs planning
    meeting for early next week
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
- ---------------------------
* Sparks (104)
* jjmcd (82)
* radsy (17)
* zodbot (3)
* buggbot (2)
* Darkedge (2)
* ianweller (1)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
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From noriko at redhat.com  Thu Dec 10 01:45:23 2009
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:45:23 +1000
Subject: Docs Installation Guide - Submission and Download problem
In-Reply-To: <20091209235809.GH9741@victoria.internal.frields.org>
References: <4B0B62F8.5090601@redhat.com>
	<4B14BEDA.9030504@gmail.com>	<4B15C3A7.2020405@redhat.com>	<6d4237680912012347t5f53cc1apba4e5682465b3e84@mail.gmail.com>	<4B174117.7070606@redhat.com>	<6d4237680912040051k15738b01x4b310e36a47eb83d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091209235809.GH9741@victoria.internal.frields.org>
Message-ID: <4B2052B3.6080005@redhat.com>

Paul W. Frields ????????:
> On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 10:51:59AM +0200, Dimitris Glezos wrote:
>> 2009/12/3 Ruediger Landmann <r.landmann at redhat.com>:
>>> On 12/02/2009 05:47 PM, Dimitris Glezos wrote:
>>>> Rudi, you could clear the cache and refresh it.
>>>>
>>> Really? How do I do that? I'd thought that a button like that would be useful for the
>>> maintainer of a project
>> This button is available on the web interface on component pages for
>> maintainers.
>>
>>> , not least of which because changes to a POT in the repo don't automatically
>>> trigger a refresh (of course!) while submissions of updated POs do.
>> This functionality has been available in Transifex for a while, it's
>> just that Fedora is still running an old (and unmaintained) version.
> 
> Diego posted the summary of what needs to be done here:
> 
> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1455#comment:10
> 
> In short, we need a few people to step up and help with the process
> Diego posted.
> 
> We already do have a L10n Admin group[1] that should be overseeing and
> managing this process, to ensure a successful rollout for translators.
> Their charter is to maintain the infrastructure for translators, and
> this clearly falls into that area.  I've heard from two of the people
> in that group that they can't do all this work themselves, but haven't
> heard from Ankit or Asgeir about it.
> 
> What I would suggest is that Diego should help with bullet #4 on that
> list, as it probably requires the greatest degree of specific
> technical knowledge, in this case a database upgrade.  The rest of the
> work on that ticket could likely be done entirely by the remainder of
> the team, maybe with limited input from Diego.  It would be helpful
> for Asgeir or Ankit to help manage this set of tasks in collaboration
> with Diego, who has appropriate package access.  (I'm cc'ing Ignacio
> directly as well, so he can add appropriate CVS access for any other
> people who are willing to help maintain the EL-5 package used on our
> Infrastructure.)
> 
> Without help, it's doubtful there will be a new Transifex rolled out,
> and that means some of the problems people are experiencing will
> continue, even though they're already fixed upstream.  I'm cc'ing the
> docs, devel, and infrastructure lists to see if any of the people in
> areas well served by translators are willing to help see this project
> through.  It's time to pull together, guys, and see if we can help the
> translators who give so much across the whole Fedora Project.

Thanks Paul,
We are very much appreciated if any of you guys can give a hand to L10n 
team this time, as by coincidence both of Ankit and Asgeir are having 
leave (most likely traveling) and they might not be able have connection 
at all.

I like to add brother i18n team as well.

noriko
> 
> * * *
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Tools#Website
> 



From noriko at redhat.com  Thu Dec 10 02:27:48 2009
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 12:27:48 +1000
Subject: F13 Docs Schedule Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4B2048B3.2050004@christensenplace.us>
References: <4B2048B3.2050004@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <4B205CA4.7050003@redhat.com>

Eric Christensen ????????:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I'd like to setup a meeting for early next week between the translators
> and the docs folks to work out the schedule for the F13 release.
> 
> I was thinking Monday between 1800 UTC and 2000 UTC or between 2300 UTC
> and 0300 UTC (Tuesday).
> 
> Would there be a time in there that we could meet?

I would be mostly quiet as from trans team, and happy to be available 
anytime between 1900UTC to 0600UTC+1 both days. After 0600UTC is still 
negotiable.

noriko

> 
> Thanks,
> Eric
> Docs Project Lead
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From shaunm at gnome.org  Fri Dec 11 04:01:07 2009
From: shaunm at gnome.org (Shaun McCance)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:01:07 -0600
Subject: Addressing Yelp Concerns
Message-ID: <1260504067.28231.70.camel@localhost>

Hi all,

I'd like to address the Yelp concerns outlined here:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop_Documentation_Presentation_Options

My comments are generally geared towards Yelp 3.0, which will
be released with Gnome 3.0 in September 2010.  The design of
Yelp 3.0 is geared more towards individual documents, focusing
less on the library of installed documents.  It will be able
to locate and read help documents in DocBook, Mallard, or HTML.
It will also continue to be able to read man and info, though
I view these as bonus features, and not central to the design
of Yelp.

I do want to make sure that multiple-page HTML documents are
handled well in Yelp.  So even if you find that letting Yelp
render DocBook on the fly doesn't work for you, you may still
be able to use Yelp with pre-built HTML.

The front page of Yelp will be the Desktop Help ("User Guide"),
which will be a Mallard document.  Mallard is a new format for
topic-oriented help.  It has many advantages (which I'll gladly
talk your ear off about), but the primary selling point is that
it's designed around the idea that downstream distributors will
extend and modify upstream documents.  I hope the Fedora team
will take advantage of this and extend Gnome's Desktop Help to
better assist users.

That said, I understand that many of the documents that you're
developing and packaging aren't typical desktop or application
help files, and that you may have special requirements to fit
your users' expectations.  My goal is to help you help your
users.  I hope Yelp will be useful, but if it's not the right
fit, then do what's best for your users.  Your users trump my
ego any day.

Enough yakking.

* Fedora documents are found in Help, alongside Gnome documents,
even though these are stand-alone documents generally not coupled
to any particular application and are therefore a different kind
of documentation from what's generally provided in help and what
users therefore expect to find there.

Yelp is moving away from the focus on all installed documents,
although this will still be available.  Some clever categorization
could help this.  There is, of course, nothing that precludes you
from continuing to put links in the application menu to documents
that are displayed in Yelp.

* Yelp has some size limitations. At this time it is not entirely
clear whether this is a limitation on some specific item such as
index entries or an absolute document size limitation.

There are no real size limitations, except possibly the recursion
limits in libxml2, although I doubt you're hitting those.  This
is probably just a symptom of the speed issue below.

* Since yelp handles rendering, there is no control over document
style.

I generally view this as an advantage.  Fiddling with design is
not something authors should spend their time on.  When they do,
they often create something blingier, but decidedly less readable.

That said, I understand the desire to brand a set of documents.
I'm entirely open to having some sort of XSLT "themes" that can
be installed and referenced by documents.  It's something I've
toyed with in the past.  But nobody's expressed interest before,
so it never became a priority.

* Yelp does not produce document indices when requested.

True, although that doesn't mean it couldn't.  That's clearly an
important feature for Fedora, so I can bump it up on the priority
list.

* Yelp can be slow. For larger documents, very slow. Breaking the
document into multiple files does not help.

DocBook is an inherently single-file format.  I assume this is
referring to using SYSTEM entities or XInclude to slurp other
files in.  All of that is handled by libxml2.  As far as Yelp
is concerned, it's reading one big file.

So when I first took over Yelp, I managed to get a lot of very
big performance improvements in.  Then I took a hiatus.  Some
of my improvements got lost, and a few I had planned never got
done.

We can make Yelp noticeably faster.  I know where most of the
bottlenecks are.  Obviously, though, there's no way on-the-fly
transformation will ever be as fast as reading an HTML file.
It's a question of what's fast enough.

* Yelp does not display the Publican-produced revision history.

This I can address, even in the 2.30 timeframe if you want.
Basically, Yelp's interpretation of DocBook revision history
is a product of the way Sun was using it to satisfy, to the
letter, the requirements of the GFDL.  It's a quirky legacy
behavior, and we can't throw it away entirely, but we can
adapt to what Publican is doing.

* Publican cannot currently package multiple languages, and at this
time, it appears it will not address yelp packaging in the future.

Packaging a document for Yelp 3.0 is easy.  You just have to
put it in a location Yelp understands.  No ScrollKeeper or
any registration procedures.  If Publican can't change its
installation directory, Yelp may be able to adapt to it.

* Yelp addresses only Gnome and does not help other desktops.

One of the big things happening in Yelp 3.0 is that we're
splitting the transformation core into a separate library,
libyelp.  The XFCE team has already expressed an interest
in building their own help viewer on top of libyelp.

Of course, I understand that KDE is important.  I've been
talking to the KDE team, and I hope we can finally come to
a consensus on a common help system.  That way you can just
install your documents to a common location, and Gnome, KDE,
and XFCE would all pick it up.

* All languages are installed, whether or not needed. The installed
size in all languages for our longer documents is hundreds of megabytes.

I don't see how this has anything to do with Yelp.  This
is a matter of how you package your files.  Are those pesky
OMF files keeping you from doing language packs properly?
I'm fairly certain there's nothing in the 3.0 designs that
will force this.  The Ubuntu team is also interested in
doing language packs for documentation, so I want to get
this right.

* Package maintenance has a high overhead; the package maintainer
must update the package any time any translation team needs to make
a correction or update.

Again, I'm not sure what this has to do with Yelp.  Please
let me know what Yelp can do better to help you here.

* Packages for larger documents may be hundreds of megabytes. Each
language may (should) have localised images. Images can take up
substantial space. Limiting images is not an option as images are
useful for various aspects of learning and documentation.

Right, so this is the language pack thing again.  I will say
that one of the nice things in Yelp 3.0 is that it looks up
everything according to a path, and can fall back to content
elsewhere in the path.  This includes images.  So if you have
both a "C" version and a localized version of a document, and
you have non-localized images (common for including icons in
documentation), you don't need to install those images with
the localized document.

I'm also working on allowing the XML files to be compressed
on disk.  This doesn't help the package size, but it does
help the install size of the package.

In the end, though, if you have huge documents with lots of
translations, you probably want to do some sort of language
packs.  I think this is mostly a packaging and distribution
problem, so the ball's in your court.  But I want to make
sure that Yelp isn't putting up extra roadblocks, so please
let me know if it's making this difficult.


Thanks for your time; I know this email was long.  And
thanks to everybody who's been bringing these concerns
to my attention.  I'm trying to be more involved with
downstream, but there's a lot to keep up with.

--
Shaun





From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Fri Dec 11 15:06:20 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:06:20 -0500
Subject: Addressing Yelp Concerns
In-Reply-To: <1260504067.28231.70.camel@localhost>
References: <1260504067.28231.70.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <1260543980.11782.48.camel@Aidan>

Shaun,

Thanks for the excellent summary ...

(lotsa clips below)

On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 22:01 -0600, Shaun McCance wrote:

> I do want to make sure that multiple-page HTML documents are
> handled well in Yelp.  So even if you find that letting Yelp
> render DocBook on the fly doesn't work for you, you may still
> be able to use Yelp with pre-built HTML.

This might help us sort out the right blend of features

> The front page of Yelp will be the Desktop Help ("User Guide"),
> which will be a Mallard document.  Mallard is a new format for

Oh goodie, yet another format

> the primary selling point is that
> it's designed around the idea that downstream distributors will
> extend and modify upstream documents.

Now this sounds like a good idea

> * Fedora documents are found in Help, alongside Gnome documents,
> even though these are stand-alone documents generally not coupled
> to any particular application and are therefore a different kind
> of documentation from what's generally provided in help and what
> users therefore expect to find there.

There's a lot of "that's how we've always done it" here, that perhaps
should be questioned.  But for a dozen releases now, users find the
release notes under help.  Prior to F11 we also installed a half dozen
other documents that I bet 90% of users never knew were there.

> Yelp is moving away from the focus on all installed documents,

I guess I don't totally understand what this means

> There are no real size limitations, except possibly the recursion
> limits in libxml2, although I doubt you're hitting those.  This
> is probably just a symptom of the speed issue below.

Yelp has some very strange behaviors.  It takes a while for the window
to appear, and another while to open a document.  However, after a
document appears to open, the CPU stays pinned for quite some time.  In
the case of the Release Notes, Yelp would originally crash during this
time.  "Quite some time" is several MINUTES, so it took me a while
before I realized it wasn't what I was doing that was causing the crash,
but whatever was going on behind the scenes.

In the case of Release Notes, the only obvious workaround was to drop
the "All Changes" chapter and put a link in to that chapter on the web.
That chapter happens to have several thousand index entries.  It did
appear that making the chapter smaller helped, but a partial "All
Changes" chapter didn't make much sense, so for release, we eliminated
the entire chapter.

It turns out that the index is pretty critical for that chapter, and
since I saw no workaround for the lack of an index, that also indicated
that the solution was to move it to the web.

> * Since yelp handles rendering, there is no control over document
> style.
> 
> I generally view this as an advantage.  Fiddling with design is
> not something authors should spend their time on.  When they do,
> they often create something blingier, but decidedly less readable.

Yes, I see both sides of this, too.  One of the nice things about
Publican, as opposed to naked DocBook, is that somebody else worried
about what it looks like.

> True, although that doesn't mean it couldn't.  That's clearly an
> important feature for Fedora, so I can bump it up on the priority
> list.

Although we didn't use this in the past, as I mentioned earlier, the All
Changes chapter makes this a necessity for now.  It wouldn't be so
critical if the yum groups made some sense, but they don't, and the Docs
Project has no control over this, so the only way a person might find
their favorite app is through the index.

> * Yelp can be slow. For larger documents, very slow. Breaking the
> document into multiple files does not help.
> 
> DocBook is an inherently single-file format.  I assume this is
> referring to using SYSTEM entities or XInclude to slurp other
> files in.  All of that is handled by libxml2.  As far as Yelp
> is concerned, it's reading one big file.

Actually, the XInclude's seem to help the apparent slowness.  As best I
can tell, Yelp reads the entire document, whether or not the user
navigates to a particular chapter.  However, the first file is displayed
before all files are read, so the user's perception of speed is better
with multiple files, at least, as far as I could tell with my limited
experimentation.

I did try breaking down some of the larger chapters into multiple
smaller files but this didn't seem to affect the crashing.  It was only
whacking down the total document size that helped.

> * Yelp does not display the Publican-produced revision history.
> 
> This I can address, even in the 2.30 timeframe if you want.
> Basically, Yelp's interpretation of DocBook revision history
> is a product of the way Sun was using it to satisfy, to the
> letter, the requirements of the GFDL.  It's a quirky legacy
> behavior, and we can't throw it away entirely, but we can
> adapt to what Publican is doing.

In F12, we worked around this by changing the XML used for the revision
history.  Not ideal, and it looks awful, but at least the history is
there (we had bugs filed about the missing history).

> Packaging a document for Yelp 3.0 is easy.  You just have to
> put it in a location Yelp understands.  No ScrollKeeper or
> any registration procedures.  If Publican can't change its
> installation directory, Yelp may be able to adapt to it.

This is really not a Yelp issue.  It is much more a question of how the
Docs Project wants to make the tradeoffs.  Now that we have worked out
how to package a multiple language HTML, we have more variants to
concern ourselves with.

Within Fedora, a user selects the preferred language at logon time, and
thereafter, everything (that has been translated) is presented in his
native language.  For most applications, while this may make the
application's disk footprint larger, is is generally not a great deal
larger.

With a document, however, the size is multiplied by the number of
languages.  So there is an argument to be made about only installing the
needed languages, which in the majority of cases, is probably only one.
There are (now) only two documents we install by default.  There has
been some discussion about whether it makes sense to have Anaconda
somehow make the selection, but any limitation would cause the documents
to behave differently than the rest of Fedora.

Responding to the idea that a single language is probably the most
common use case, Publican will automatically generate an RPM package for
a single HTML.  We have had no success convincing the Publican
developers that packaging for Yelp or packaging multiple languages is a
good idea, although a Yelp that works across desktops might help that
argument.

Unfortunately, installing multiple, Publican produced RPMs for various
languages really isn't an acceptable solution.  The user is presented
with a menu selection for each language, which quickly becomes a very
long list.  Often, the title is the same in several languages, so the
user may have to open several documents to find the one he wants.

Release Notes and About Fedora are currently packaged more or less
manually.  This isn't rocket science, but having Publican do it
automatically is appealing, especially since most of the writers aren't
developers, and since developers aren't writers, getting a new document
package approved borders on impossible.  We have been able to make the
argument that an automatically produced RPM shouldn't need approval, but
a new, manually produced RPM takes more effort to get approval than it
takes to write the document in the first place.

> Of course, I understand that KDE is important.  I've been
> talking to the KDE team, and I hope we can finally come to
> a consensus on a common help system.  That way you can just
> install your documents to a common location, and Gnome, KDE,
> and XFCE would all pick it up.

This would help, although at least for Gnome and KDE, we are close to an
HTML based solution.  I expect XFCE and Sugar are simply a matter of
research.

> * All languages are installed, whether or not needed. The installed
> size in all languages for our longer documents is hundreds of megabytes.
> 
> I don't see how this has anything to do with Yelp.  This
> is a matter of how you package your files.  Are those pesky
> OMF files keeping you from doing language packs properly?
> I'm fairly certain there's nothing in the 3.0 designs that
> will force this.  The Ubuntu team is also interested in
> doing language packs for documentation, so I want to get
> this right.

Clearly it doesn't have anything to do with Yelp.  This has to do with
decisions about how we want to trade off disk footprint for user
flexibility.  There are limitations to RPM that constrain us here, and I
don't see APT as being any different.  Indeed, this is a place where
Yelp might have a leg up over HTML.

> * Package maintenance has a high overhead; the package maintainer
> must update the package any time any translation team needs to make
> a correction or update.
> 
> Again, I'm not sure what this has to do with Yelp.  Please
> let me know what Yelp can do better to help you here.

This is even further removed from Yelp.  I think this is a question of
how much development (gasp) docs wants to do to make the writer's job
easier.

> * Packages for larger documents may be hundreds of megabytes. Each
> language may (should) have localised images. Images can take up
> substantial space. Limiting images is not an option as images are
> useful for various aspects of learning and documentation.
> 
> Right, so this is the language pack thing again.  I will say
> that one of the nice things in Yelp 3.0 is that it looks up
> everything according to a path, and can fall back to content
> elsewhere in the path.  This includes images.  So if you have
> both a "C" version and a localized version of a document, and
> you have non-localized images (common for including icons in
> documentation), you don't need to install those images with
> the localized document.

Isn't this pretty close to where it is now?  Cant we just add a doc,
then add an OMF, and away we go?  Am I forgetting something?

> Thanks for your time; I know this email was long.  And
> thanks to everybody who's been bringing these concerns
> to my attention.  I'm trying to be more involved with
> downstream, but there's a lot to keep up with.

Shaun, we have some difficult head-scratching to do, and I appreciate
your shining some light on some of these issues.  of course many of the
hard ones have little to do with Yelp, but it is encouraging that
perhaps some of those issues that are Yelp-related may get some
attention.

--McD




From eric at christensenplace.us  Fri Dec 11 18:49:45 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 13:49:45 -0500
Subject: REMINDER: Updates for docs.fp.o NLT 0600 UTC
Message-ID: <c5cb00220912111049qb0af45dl827021dbb277c5@mail.gmail.com>

Just a reminder, if you have any updates to any guides on docs.fp.o please
make sure it is uploaded to CVS no later than 0600 UTC.  CVS will be down
for the weekend and no updates can occur.

--Eric
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Fri Dec 11 19:18:17 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 00:48:17 +0530
Subject: PackageKit note is outdated
Message-ID: <4B229AF9.1020705@fedoraproject.org>

Hi,

Why hasn't this note been dropped yet?

http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f12/en-US/html/sect-Release_Notes-Security.html#sect-Release_Notes-Security-Install-trusted-packages

Rahul



From eric at christensenplace.us  Fri Dec 11 19:56:21 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:56:21 -0500
Subject: PackageKit note is outdated
In-Reply-To: <4B229AF9.1020705@fedoraproject.org>
References: <4B229AF9.1020705@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <c5cb00220912111156p53910978jbfca148c81c78440@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 14:18, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram at fedoraproject.org>wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Why hasn't this note been dropped yet?
>
>
> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f12/en-US/html/sect-Release_Notes-Security.html#sect-Release_Notes-Security-Install-trusted-packages
>
> Rahul
>
>
It's not that the note needs to be dropped so much that it needs to be
updated.  Because this is F12's default behavior we need to make sure people
know of this behavior.  There are installs out there that won't be updated
due to them being on an isolated network.

--Eric
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Fri Dec 11 20:04:04 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 01:34:04 +0530
Subject: PackageKit note is outdated
In-Reply-To: <c5cb00220912111156p53910978jbfca148c81c78440@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B229AF9.1020705@fedoraproject.org>
	<c5cb00220912111156p53910978jbfca148c81c78440@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B22A5B4.7070306@fedoraproject.org>

On 12/12/2009 01:26 AM, Eric Christensen wrote:

> 
> It's not that the note needs to be dropped so much that it needs to be
> updated.  Because this is F12's default behavior we need to make sure
> people know of this behavior.  There are installs out there that won't
> be updated due to them being on an isolated network.

Really? If people are on a isolated network without getting security
updates, aren't they putting themselves at much higher security
problems?  Anyway, if an updated note needs to be pushed out, let's do
that.  The problem itself was fixed a long time back.  The current
release notes are misleading.

Rahul



From poelstra at redhat.com  Fri Dec 11 20:22:52 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 12:22:52 -0800
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
Message-ID: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com>

In anticipation of the meeting suggested by Sparks on logistics list, 
I've created a text version of the schedule that should work well for 
customizing or using in gobby.

http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-trans-schedule-review.txt

This version is a combination of:
1) key milestones for the release as a whole (to provide context)
2) Documentation tasks
3) Translation tasks

The most helpful feedback you can give me (at the meeting or elsewhere) 
is to provide corrections, additions, or deletions based on the version 
I've created.  It does not help me if you create your own version from 
scratch and refer to it because then I have to start all over which is a 
big investment of time.  A patch or diff against the original file works 
too.

Thanks,
John



From eric at christensenplace.us  Fri Dec 11 20:29:40 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:29:40 -0500
Subject: PackageKit note is outdated
In-Reply-To: <4B22A5B4.7070306@fedoraproject.org>
References: <4B229AF9.1020705@fedoraproject.org>
	<c5cb00220912111156p53910978jbfca148c81c78440@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4B22A5B4.7070306@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <c5cb00220912111229l227066bbs6cc11cc818b7df8d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 15:04, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram at fedoraproject.org>wrote:

> On 12/12/2009 01:26 AM, Eric Christensen wrote:
>
> >
> > It's not that the note needs to be dropped so much that it needs to be
> > updated.  Because this is F12's default behavior we need to make sure
> > people know of this behavior.  There are installs out there that won't
> > be updated due to them being on an isolated network.
>
> Really? If people are on a isolated network without getting security
> updates, aren't they putting themselves at much higher security
> problems?  Anyway, if an updated note needs to be pushed out, let's do
> that.  The problem itself was fixed a long time back.  The current
> release notes are misleading.
>
> Rahul
>


Bugs requests are good, patches are better.
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Fri Dec 11 20:47:45 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 02:17:45 +0530
Subject: PackageKit note is outdated
In-Reply-To: <c5cb00220912111229l227066bbs6cc11cc818b7df8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B229AF9.1020705@fedoraproject.org>
	<c5cb00220912111156p53910978jbfca148c81c78440@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B22A5B4.7070306@fedoraproject.org>
	<c5cb00220912111229l227066bbs6cc11cc818b7df8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B22AFF1.8010105@fedoraproject.org>

On 12/12/2009 01:59 AM, Eric Christensen wrote:
> 
> Bugs requests are good, patches are better.

Bug report is all you can get on this. Sorry.

Rahul



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Fri Dec 11 22:55:02 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:55:02 -0500
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>

John

Looking at it with my Release Notes blinders on, I think we need to
first focus on the major tasks, AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS.  I'm sort of
ignoring docs.fp.o at this point because that happens almost
automatically as a result of having the RPM.

Starting from the end ...

We need to have the RPM built BEFORE the RC Compose. Somehow we managed
to miss this little detail for F12. There are always hiccups so I think
we should leave 3 days for this.  We *might* end up with another RPM for
the "Bug Complete" compose, but since we will have addressed the issues
already, we can probably get by with a day for that.

Backing up from the RC RPM, it looks as if we don't gain a lot by trying
to get all the translation done for beta like we did for F12.  The time
for GA is about the same as the time for Beta.  So let's assume we have
10 days for translation (which must be finished before we make the RPM),
and another 10 days for post-beta edits, that brings us back about to
the Beta compose, so basically, it is the maximum amount of time we
have.

So the basics are:
  - We need to have the RPM **before** RelEng's compose
  - We need the translation before the RPM
  - We need the text before we can translate it

The only difference between Beta and GA is that for Beta we probably
should take an extra few days for unclaimed beats.

Alpha is kind of a minor event since we don't translate it, and in the
past we haven't made an RPM (although I think we should).

Take a look at
http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F13-RelNotes-MajorTasks.html

there are lots of other things we need to do for Release Notes, but
these are the things that essentially set the schedule.  Unfortunately,
the html export doesn't show the dependencies, which are the main thing.
But all of the other tasks are mostly noise.  It is this business of
write, translate, make the RPM that sets the schedule, and we need to
give Jesse the RPM before he composes, so RelEng's composes are major
milestones as far as we are concerned.

Also, there is an assumption here that the new Transifex is in place.
We have also had discussions about sending POTs much more frequently.
The way we have been handling it L10N gets the MINIMUM amount of time to
do the translations.  Often we have plenty of changes backed up before
we can reveal them to L10N.  This doesn't seem like the best plan.  We
have an accounting problem trying to keep all the partial and un-done
translations straight, and L10N is as rushed as possible.

--McD


On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 12:22 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
> In anticipation of the meeting suggested by Sparks on logistics list, 
> I've created a text version of the schedule that should work well for 
> customizing or using in gobby.
> 
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-trans-schedule-review.txt
> 
> This version is a combination of:
> 1) key milestones for the release as a whole (to provide context)
> 2) Documentation tasks
> 3) Translation tasks
> 
> The most helpful feedback you can give me (at the meeting or elsewhere) 
> is to provide corrections, additions, or deletions based on the version 
> I've created.  It does not help me if you create your own version from 
> scratch and refer to it because then I have to start all over which is a 
> big investment of time.  A patch or diff against the original file works 
> too.
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> 




From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Sun Dec 13 08:03:01 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 03:03:01 -0500
Subject: RFC: Unetbootin in Install-Guide
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0912130003u2282feeei1a1ed927cf62f9ea@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi All:

We've had somewhat competing bugs (links below) filed around Unetbootin.

Originally we referenced Unetbootin, and mentioned that we didn't ship
it in Fedora, which is now incorrect, and the cause of the the first
bug that was filed.

Here was original:
UNetbootin is a free and open-source graphical tool that can create
live USB media from live image files on computers that use a wide
range of different Linux distributions. The Fedora Project does not
distribute UNetbootin ? it is available from
http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/. Refer to that website for a
complete description of the tool and instructions on how to use it.

Here is the current paragraph:
UNetbootin is a free and open-source graphical tool that can create
live USB media from live image files on computers that use a wide
range of different Linux distributions. Refer to the documentation
provided with UNetbootin for more information on how to use it.

Ricky has submitted a patch that essentially strips mention of
Unetbootin from the install guide.

Our current documentation is pretty sparse with regards to Unetbootin.

Sooooo, how do we want to handle Unetbootin in our documentation.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=540954
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=545577
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Sun Dec 13 08:28:25 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:58:25 +0530
Subject: RFC: Unetbootin in Install-Guide
In-Reply-To: <d6e6dfeb0912130003u2282feeei1a1ed927cf62f9ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d6e6dfeb0912130003u2282feeei1a1ed927cf62f9ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B24A5A9.9040003@fedoraproject.org>

On 12/13/2009 01:33 PM, David Nalley wrote:

> 
> Our current documentation is pretty sparse with regards to Unetbootin.
> 
> Sooooo, how do we want to handle Unetbootin in our documentation.
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=540954
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=545577

IIRC, there was some sort of incompatibility and Fedora 12 had booting
problems if Unetbootin was used. I think, we should favor Fedora Live
USB creator and livecd-iso-to-disk and not add more than a passing
reference to Unetbootin since it doesn't go through any of the tests
from the QA team or release engineering.

Rahul



From shaunm at gnome.org  Mon Dec 14 02:14:21 2009
From: shaunm at gnome.org (Shaun McCance)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 20:14:21 -0600
Subject: Addressing Yelp Concerns
In-Reply-To: <1260543980.11782.48.camel@Aidan>
References: <1260504067.28231.70.camel@localhost>
	<1260543980.11782.48.camel@Aidan>
Message-ID: <1260756861.24067.50.camel@localhost>

On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 10:06 -0500, John J. McDonough wrote:
> Shaun,
> 
> Thanks for the excellent summary ...
> 
> (lotsa clips below)
> 
> On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 22:01 -0600, Shaun McCance wrote:
> > The front page of Yelp will be the Desktop Help ("User Guide"),
> > which will be a Mallard document.  Mallard is a new format for
> 
> Oh goodie, yet another format

Yes, the previous wheel wasn't round enough for my liking. ;-)

> > the primary selling point is that
> > it's designed around the idea that downstream distributors will
> > extend and modify upstream documents.
> 
> Now this sounds like a good idea

So I understand the reluctance to deal with yet another format.
There certainly are more than enough of them out there.  But I
think it's important to stress that Mallard is in a different
class than any other format you're using.  The only other open
format that's doing similar things is DITA.

Aside from the point that Mallard is much easier to deal with,
its primary strength over DITA is that guides ("topic maps" in
DITA lingo) are dynamic, responding to what's installed.

This was an intentional design goal from the outset to help us
finally solve two related cases: distro additions to upstream
documents and plugin documentation.

> > Yelp is moving away from the focus on all installed documents,
> 
> I guess I don't totally understand what this means

Some particular consequences of this design:

* Yelp 2 shows the listing of all installed documents as the
default front page.  Yelp 3 shows the Desktop Help.  You can
get to the listing, but it's not the first thing you see.

* In Yelp 2, search searches all installed documents.  In 3,
it searches the document you're looking at by default.  You
can then broaden your search if you like.

* In Yelp 3, there will be a single primary window associated
with each document.  You can open more explicitly, but they're
secondary.  When an application requests a page in a document
to be shown, it will do it in the primary window.  This helps
alleviate the "cat standing on the F1 key" problem.

* Bookmarks will be grouped by document.  Bookmarks for the
current document are shown right in the Bookmarks menu, while
bookmarks for other documents are available from submenus.

> > There are no real size limitations, except possibly the recursion
> > limits in libxml2, although I doubt you're hitting those.  This
> > is probably just a symptom of the speed issue below.
> 
> Yelp has some very strange behaviors.  It takes a while for the window
> to appear,

That's because of Rarian.  When I took Yelp over years ago,
I put a lot of work into making sure startup didn't block
on a bunch of I/O.  That got lost.  I'll fix it.

>  and another while to open a document.  However, after a
> document appears to open, the CPU stays pinned for quite some time.

So the way it currently processes DocBook documents is that
it has a single long-running XSLT thread that generates all
the chunks.  It can display a chunk as soon as its ready, so
chunks that are early in the document can display early.

I'm going to try doing each page in its own XSLT processing
run as it's requested.  I think that will produce better
results.

There is, however, still the general penalty of having to
read and parse the entire XML file before anything else can
be done.

> > * All languages are installed, whether or not needed. The installed
> > size in all languages for our longer documents is hundreds of megabytes.
> > 
> > I don't see how this has anything to do with Yelp.  This
> > is a matter of how you package your files.  Are those pesky
> > OMF files keeping you from doing language packs properly?
> > I'm fairly certain there's nothing in the 3.0 designs that
> > will force this.  The Ubuntu team is also interested in
> > doing language packs for documentation, so I want to get
> > this right.
> 
> Clearly it doesn't have anything to do with Yelp.  This has to do with
> decisions about how we want to trade off disk footprint for user
> flexibility.  There are limitations to RPM that constrain us here, and I
> don't see APT as being any different.  Indeed, this is a place where
> Yelp might have a leg up over HTML.

So it seems to me (said naively) that if one knows certain things
about the packages one is installing, one can build an installer
that's a bit smarter and more user-friendly.  Overcome limitations
in the package system with package name conventions or some such.

Perhaps somebody could build a specialized Fedora documentation
viewer using libyelp and PackageKit that can find an install
documentation for the user.  Or maybe we can build that into
Yelp.  Any UX people around that could create some work flows
or mockups?  I think this would be interesting to look into.

> > * Packages for larger documents may be hundreds of megabytes. Each
> > language may (should) have localised images. Images can take up
> > substantial space. Limiting images is not an option as images are
> > useful for various aspects of learning and documentation.
> > 
> > Right, so this is the language pack thing again.  I will say
> > that one of the nice things in Yelp 3.0 is that it looks up
> > everything according to a path, and can fall back to content
> > elsewhere in the path.  This includes images.  So if you have
> > both a "C" version and a localized version of a document, and
> > you have non-localized images (common for including icons in
> > documentation), you don't need to install those images with
> > the localized document.
> 
> Isn't this pretty close to where it is now?  Cant we just add a doc,
> then add an OMF, and away we go?  Am I forgetting something?

Yelp 2 can find the right document for your language based on
a path.  But once it finds it, it's stuck in that directory.
In Yelp 3, subresources (like images) are located according
to this path as well.  (This was a pretty critical feature
for getting Mallard right.)

--
Shaun




From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Dec 14 14:02:57 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 09:02:57 -0500
Subject: Addressing Yelp Concerns
In-Reply-To: <1260756861.24067.50.camel@localhost>
References: <1260504067.28231.70.camel@localhost>
	<1260543980.11782.48.camel@Aidan>
	<1260756861.24067.50.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <20091214140257.GH23119@victoria.internal.frields.org>

On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 08:14:21PM -0600, Shaun McCance wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 10:06 -0500, John J. McDonough wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 22:01 -0600, Shaun McCance wrote:
> > > the primary selling point is that
> > > it's designed around the idea that downstream distributors will
> > > extend and modify upstream documents.
> > 
> > Now this sounds like a good idea
> 
> So I understand the reluctance to deal with yet another format.
> There certainly are more than enough of them out there.  But I
> think it's important to stress that Mallard is in a different
> class than any other format you're using.  The only other open
> format that's doing similar things is DITA.
> 
> Aside from the point that Mallard is much easier to deal with,
> its primary strength over DITA is that guides ("topic maps" in
> DITA lingo) are dynamic, responding to what's installed.
> 
> This was an intentional design goal from the outset to help us
> finally solve two related cases: distro additions to upstream
> documents and plugin documentation.

>From the standpoint of the casual user, the Mallard based docs are
more functional and usable because they respond to natural questions:
"How do I do <X>?" instead of the old-style "Intro/Topic1/Topic2..."
organization which often requires the user to browse for longer to get
the answer to a question.

[...snip...]
> > > * All languages are installed, whether or not needed. The installed
> > > size in all languages for our longer documents is hundreds of megabytes.
> > > 
> > > I don't see how this has anything to do with Yelp.  This
> > > is a matter of how you package your files.  Are those pesky
> > > OMF files keeping you from doing language packs properly?
> > > I'm fairly certain there's nothing in the 3.0 designs that
> > > will force this.  The Ubuntu team is also interested in
> > > doing language packs for documentation, so I want to get
> > > this right.
> > 
> > Clearly it doesn't have anything to do with Yelp.  This has to do with
> > decisions about how we want to trade off disk footprint for user
> > flexibility.  There are limitations to RPM that constrain us here, and I
> > don't see APT as being any different.  Indeed, this is a place where
> > Yelp might have a leg up over HTML.
> 
> So it seems to me (said naively) that if one knows certain things
> about the packages one is installing, one can build an installer
> that's a bit smarter and more user-friendly.  Overcome limitations
> in the package system with package name conventions or some such.
> 
> Perhaps somebody could build a specialized Fedora documentation
> viewer using libyelp and PackageKit that can find an install
> documentation for the user.  Or maybe we can build that into
> Yelp.  Any UX people around that could create some work flows
> or mockups?  I think this would be interesting to look into.

Perhaps this could be done by having documentation RPMs advertise a
capability, which PackageKit could then locate and install in a manner
similar to codecs and fonts.

> > > * Packages for larger documents may be hundreds of megabytes. Each
> > > language may (should) have localised images. Images can take up
> > > substantial space. Limiting images is not an option as images are
> > > useful for various aspects of learning and documentation.
> > > 
> > > Right, so this is the language pack thing again.  I will say
> > > that one of the nice things in Yelp 3.0 is that it looks up
> > > everything according to a path, and can fall back to content
> > > elsewhere in the path.  This includes images.  So if you have
> > > both a "C" version and a localized version of a document, and
> > > you have non-localized images (common for including icons in
> > > documentation), you don't need to install those images with
> > > the localized document.
> > 
> > Isn't this pretty close to where it is now?  Cant we just add a doc,
> > then add an OMF, and away we go?  Am I forgetting something?
> 
> Yelp 2 can find the right document for your language based on
> a path.  But once it finds it, it's stuck in that directory.
> In Yelp 3, subresources (like images) are located according
> to this path as well.  (This was a pretty critical feature
> for getting Mallard right.)

So images and other common bits could still be located based on a
relative path, correct?  Such as "../../../images/foobar.png"?

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug



From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Dec 14 15:57:31 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:57:31 -0500
Subject: F13 Docs Schedule Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4B205CA4.7050003@redhat.com>
References: <4B2048B3.2050004@christensenplace.us>
	<4B205CA4.7050003@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B26606B.6060208@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 12/09/2009 09:27 PM, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> Eric Christensen ????????:
> I'd like to setup a meeting for early next week between the translators
> and the docs folks to work out the schedule for the F13 release.
> 
> I was thinking Monday between 1800 UTC and 2000 UTC or between 2300 UTC
> and 0300 UTC (Tuesday).
> 
> Would there be a time in there that we could meet?
> 
>> I would be mostly quiet as from trans team, and happy to be available
>> anytime between 1900UTC to 0600UTC+1 both days. After 0600UTC is still
>> negotiable.
> 
>> noriko
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric
> Docs Project Lead
>>

Sorry guys.  I was out of town this weekend and fell down on the job of
setting up this meeting.

SO, can everyone meet this afternoon 1900 UTC?  Can everyone get up on
Talk or should we use IRC?

- --Eric

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From anross at redhat.com  Tue Dec 15 03:24:12 2009
From: anross at redhat.com (Andrew Ross)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:24:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Closing fedora-docs bugs
Message-ID: <172546782.1746681260847452341.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>

Hi Everyone, 


Part of my QE role has been to sniff out and close down ECS documentation bugs. There are currently 8 bugs under the "fedora-docs" component that are in RELEASE_PENDING or ON_QE. [1] 


Would I be stepping on any toes by closing down these bugs (and similar ones in the future)? 


Thanks 


Andrew 


[1] Example: 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=506344 

-- 

Andrew Ross 
Associate Quality Engineer 
Red Hat Asia Pacific 
Phone: 3514 8331 
E-mail: anross at redhat.com 
GPG-KeyID 0xCF53DC64 

"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!" Vroomfondel in HHGTTG, Douglas Adams 

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From eric at christensenplace.us  Tue Dec 15 03:29:18 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:29:18 -0500
Subject: Closing fedora-docs bugs
In-Reply-To: <172546782.1746681260847452341.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <172546782.1746681260847452341.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <c5cb00220912141929r65dd145fs44b9403d3415a11@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 22:24, Andrew Ross  wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
> Part of my QE role has been to sniff out and close down ECS documentation
> bugs. There are currently 8 bugs under the "fedora-docs" component that are
> in RELEASE_PENDING or ON_QE. [1]
> Would I be stepping on any toes by closing down these bugs (and similar ones
> in the future)?
> Thanks
> Andrew
> [1] Example:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=506344
>

I don't have a problem with it.  Maybe you could post a note on those
tickets saying that you will close them by some date unless there is a
reason to keep them in the current status.

Thanks for your help!

- --Eric
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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Tue Dec 15 03:30:17 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:30:17 -0500
Subject: Closing fedora-docs bugs
In-Reply-To: <172546782.1746681260847452341.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <172546782.1746681260847452341.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0912141930j21dd0a71sa267589e065829aa@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Andrew Ross  wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
> Part of my QE role has been to sniff out and close down ECS documentation
> bugs. There are currently 8 bugs under the "fedora-docs" component that are
> in RELEASE_PENDING or ON_QE. [1]
> Would I be stepping on any toes by closing down these bugs (and similar ones
> in the future)?
> Thanks
> Andrew
> [1] Example:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=506344
>
> --

Speaking for the install-guide - I have no problems. The only other
person I can imagine who might have a problem (wrt to the install
guide) is Rudi, and he is local to you, and I doubt he'd see any
problem with that. That said - please feel free to close some bugs by
fixing documentation to correct the problem as well. We've seen a nice
influx of bugs since release, and I am sure that most would welcome
the help. You can either supply a patch or request commit access to
the document in question.

Thanks!!

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From r.landmann at redhat.com  Tue Dec 15 04:05:58 2009
From: r.landmann at redhat.com (Ruediger Landmann)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:05:58 +1000
Subject: Closing fedora-docs bugs
In-Reply-To: <172546782.1746681260847452341.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <172546782.1746681260847452341.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B270B26.2030605@redhat.com>

On 12/15/2009 01:24 PM, Andrew Ross wrote:p { margin: 0; }
> Part of my QE role has been to sniff out and close down ECS 
> documentation bugs. There are currently 8 bugs under the "fedora-docs" 
> component that are in RELEASE_PENDING or ON_QE. [1]
>
> Would I be stepping on any toes by closing down these bugs (and 
> similar ones in the future)?

I think this would be awesome; thanks for stepping up to volunteer, 
Andrew :)

Cheers

Rudi



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Tue Dec 15 04:13:28 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:13:28 -0500
Subject: Closing fedora-docs bugs
References: <172546782.1746681260847452341.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <A5CCF6918BED45659D08CCCCA531556C@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Andrew Ross
To: For participants of the Documentation Project
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 10:24 PM
Subject: Closing fedora-docs bugs

> Part of my QE role has been to sniff out and close down
> ECS documentation bugs. There are currently 8 bugs under
> the "fedora-docs" component that are in
> RELEASE_PENDING or ON_QE. [1]

I think a number of those release pending bugs are there to remind me to 
push an update of F11 Release Notes.

--McD



From noreply at boxbe.com  Tue Dec 15 06:06:40 2009
From: noreply at boxbe.com (noreply at boxbe.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:06:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Branch 'f12-tx' - po/ko.po (Action Required)
Message-ID: <1819354107.79592.1260857200931.JavaMail.prod@app006.boxbe.com>


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From anross at redhat.com  Tue Dec 15 10:59:26 2009
From: anross at redhat.com (Andrew Ross)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:59:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Closing fedora-docs bugs
In-Reply-To: <65562299.1758001260874675971.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <295035022.1758041260874766953.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>


----- "Ruediger Landmann" <r.landmann at redhat.com> wrote:

> On 12/15/2009 01:24 PM, Andrew Ross wrote:p { margin: 0; }
> > Part of my QE role has been to sniff out and close down ECS 
> > documentation bugs. There are currently 8 bugs under the
> "fedora-docs" 
> > component that are in RELEASE_PENDING or ON_QE. [1]
> >
> > Would I be stepping on any toes by closing down these bugs (and 
> > similar ones in the future)?
> 
> I think this would be awesome; thanks for stepping up to volunteer, 
> Andrew :)
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rudi
> 

As suggested, I won't close them immediately. Some kind of warning (reminder for jjmcd) sounds fine :)
Will also look at patch / commit on other bugs.

> -- 
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: 
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list

-- 

Andrew Ross
Associate Quality Engineer
Red Hat Asia Pacific
Phone: 3514 8331
E-mail: anross at redhat.com
GPG-KeyID 0xCF53DC64 

"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!" Vroomfondel in HHGTTG, Douglas Adams



From poelstra at redhat.com  Tue Dec 15 23:05:09 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:05:09 -0800
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com> <1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>
Message-ID: <4B281625.1040609@redhat.com>

I'll try to see what I can do with this, but it doesn't address my 
original request below.

We really need to meet in real time on this.  I'll start another thread 
on that.

John

On 12/11/2009 02:55 PM, John J. McDonough wrote:
> John
>
> Looking at it with my Release Notes blinders on, I think we need to
> first focus on the major tasks, AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS.  I'm sort of
> ignoring docs.fp.o at this point because that happens almost
> automatically as a result of having the RPM.
>
> Starting from the end ...
>
> We need to have the RPM built BEFORE the RC Compose. Somehow we managed
> to miss this little detail for F12. There are always hiccups so I think
> we should leave 3 days for this.  We *might* end up with another RPM for
> the "Bug Complete" compose, but since we will have addressed the issues
> already, we can probably get by with a day for that.
>
> Backing up from the RC RPM, it looks as if we don't gain a lot by trying
> to get all the translation done for beta like we did for F12.  The time
> for GA is about the same as the time for Beta.  So let's assume we have
> 10 days for translation (which must be finished before we make the RPM),
> and another 10 days for post-beta edits, that brings us back about to
> the Beta compose, so basically, it is the maximum amount of time we
> have.
>
> So the basics are:
>    - We need to have the RPM **before** RelEng's compose
>    - We need the translation before the RPM
>    - We need the text before we can translate it
>
> The only difference between Beta and GA is that for Beta we probably
> should take an extra few days for unclaimed beats.
>
> Alpha is kind of a minor event since we don't translate it, and in the
> past we haven't made an RPM (although I think we should).
>
> Take a look at
> http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F13-RelNotes-MajorTasks.html
>
> there are lots of other things we need to do for Release Notes, but
> these are the things that essentially set the schedule.  Unfortunately,
> the html export doesn't show the dependencies, which are the main thing.
> But all of the other tasks are mostly noise.  It is this business of
> write, translate, make the RPM that sets the schedule, and we need to
> give Jesse the RPM before he composes, so RelEng's composes are major
> milestones as far as we are concerned.
>
> Also, there is an assumption here that the new Transifex is in place.
> We have also had discussions about sending POTs much more frequently.
> The way we have been handling it L10N gets the MINIMUM amount of time to
> do the translations.  Often we have plenty of changes backed up before
> we can reveal them to L10N.  This doesn't seem like the best plan.  We
> have an accounting problem trying to keep all the partial and un-done
> translations straight, and L10N is as rushed as possible.
>
> --McD
>
>
> On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 12:22 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
>> In anticipation of the meeting suggested by Sparks on logistics list,
>> I've created a text version of the schedule that should work well for
>> customizing or using in gobby.
>>
>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-trans-schedule-review.txt
>>
>> This version is a combination of:
>> 1) key milestones for the release as a whole (to provide context)
>> 2) Documentation tasks
>> 3) Translation tasks
>>
>> The most helpful feedback you can give me (at the meeting or elsewhere)
>> is to provide corrections, additions, or deletions based on the version
>> I've created.  It does not help me if you create your own version from
>> scratch and refer to it because then I have to start all over which is a
>> big investment of time.  A patch or diff against the original file works
>> too.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> John
>>
>
>
> --
> Fedora-trans-list mailing list
> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list



From poelstra at redhat.com  Tue Dec 15 23:07:10 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:07:10 -0800
Subject: Schedule Review Time
Message-ID: <4B28169E.5010906@redhat.com>

Everyone who would like to (or should) participate in the schedule 
review... PLEASE indicate your availability ASAP.

http://whenisgood.net/rkmr2e

Thanks,
John



From noriko at redhat.com  Tue Dec 15 23:57:42 2009
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:57:42 +1000
Subject: Schedule Review Time
In-Reply-To: <4B28169E.5010906@redhat.com>
References: <4B28169E.5010906@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B282276.5020800@redhat.com>

John Poelstra ????????:
> Everyone who would like to (or should) participate in the schedule 
> review... PLEASE indicate your availability ASAP.
> 
> http://whenisgood.net/rkmr2e
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> 
> -- 
> Fedora-trans-list mailing list
> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list

Responded, thanks.



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Wed Dec 16 00:24:33 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:24:33 -0500
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <4B281625.1040609@redhat.com>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com> <1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>
	<4B281625.1040609@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>

On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 15:05 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
> I'll try to see what I can do with this, but it doesn't address my 
> original request below.

Yeah, but 90% of it doesn't matter.

It really doesn't make a lot of difference whether you arrange the
furniture or hang the pictures first, but you don't want to hang the
pictures before you paint the wall, and oh yeah, maybe you need to put
up the wall before you can paint it.

In F12 there was so much clutter that we missed some key items. That's
why I'm focusing on getting the house built before I worry about
decorating it.

John, are these all part of a master schedule with dependencies between
the teams, or is each team's plan independent?  If we can just get the
dependencies right we ought to have the dates right.

> We really need to meet in real time on this.  I'll start another thread 
> on that.

No question on that, but looking at that whenisgood is pretty
discouraging.  Monday came up too fast but next week is Christmas which
kills a big chunk of the week.  What is the matter with later this week
or early next?

--McD




From poelstra at redhat.com  Wed Dec 16 00:46:29 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:46:29 -0800
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com> <1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>	
	<4B281625.1040609@redhat.com> <1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>
Message-ID: <4B282DE5.1020900@redhat.com>

On 12/15/2009 04:24 PM, John J. McDonough wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 15:05 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
>
> No question on that, but looking at that whenisgood is pretty
> discouraging.  Monday came up too fast but next week is Christmas which
> kills a big chunk of the week.  What is the matter with later this week
> or early next?
>

oops... that's what I meant to do.

I'll have to resend.

John



From poelstra at redhat.com  Wed Dec 16 01:08:00 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:08:00 -0800
Subject: Schedule Review Time
In-Reply-To: <4B28169E.5010906@redhat.com>
References: <4B28169E.5010906@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B2832F0.9050904@redhat.com>

On 12/15/2009 03:07 PM, John Poelstra wrote:
> Everyone who would like to (or should) participate in the schedule
> review... PLEASE indicate your availability ASAP.
>
> http://whenisgood.net/rkmr2e
>
> Thanks,
> John
>

Sorry everyone... I used the wrong dates :(

Here are the CORRECT dates:

http://whenisgood.net/cxcgm5



From sparks at fedoraproject.org  Wed Dec 16 04:32:58 2009
From: sparks at fedoraproject.org (Eric "Sparks" Christensen)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:32:58 -0500
Subject: Zikula Weekly Meeting
Message-ID: <4B2862FA.8010501@fedoraproject.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

We used to have a weekly Zikula meeting before the licensing issues
brought us to a screeching halt.  We are mostly beyond that, now.  To
meet the Insight time-line Zikula needs to be up and running in 2.5
months (at Alpha).  That would also work for Docs as well.

The following people need to be at the meeting:

David (ke4qqq)
Eric (Sparks)
Mel (mchua)
Simon (itbegins)
Anyone else?

If those NEED people could send me their available times I'll put
together a time to meet.

Also, we could use some additional packagers.  If you would like to help
us out, please let me know that as well and I'll include your schedule
in my consideration.

Thanks,
Eric
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From mel at redhat.com  Wed Dec 16 04:47:27 2009
From: mel at redhat.com (Mel Chua)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:47:27 -0500
Subject: Zikula Weekly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4B2862FA.8010501@fedoraproject.org>
References: <4B2862FA.8010501@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <4B28665F.1060805@redhat.com>

> The following people need to be at the meeting:
>
> David (ke4qqq)

> Eric (Sparks)

> Mel (mchua)
available except for Mon 15:00-16:00 UTC and Tue 20:00-21:00 UTC

> Simon (itbegins)

> Anyone else?
>
> If those NEED people could send me their available times I'll put
> together a time to meet.
>
> Also, we could use some additional packagers.  If you would like to help
> us out, please let me know that as well and I'll include your schedule
> in my consideration.

If you'd like to help, don't know how to package, but want to learn, 
there are a bunch of us in the same or close-to-the-same situation (me, 
Karsten, Matthew Daniels, Aaron Clark, etc...) trying to get a Learn To 
Package! week together - join us on the Classroom 
(https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/classroom, 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom) mailing list if you're 
interested, I'm going to start a thread there now.

It might not help us out tremendously *right now*, to be completely 
honest - but we *will* need to fine-tune, tweak, revise, and launch 
v.2.0 of all these sites at *some* point in the future, and 
capacity-building for that day is a Very Good Idea.

(If you *can* package and want to teach others how to package so we can 
tackle this stuff so you don't have to, please please please *please* 
let us know.)

--Mel



From simon at zikula.org  Wed Dec 16 06:26:46 2009
From: simon at zikula.org (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 06:26:46 -0000
Subject: Zikula Weekly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4B2862FA.8010501@fedoraproject.org>
References: <4B2862FA.8010501@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <067901ca7e18$beb2bc60$3c183520$@org>

> David (ke4qqq)
> Eric (Sparks)
> Mel (mchua)
> Simon (itbegins)
Available most days except Tuesday and Thursday, but only after 20:30 UST.
This can vary from week to week...



From sparks at fedoraproject.org  Wed Dec 16 13:35:51 2009
From: sparks at fedoraproject.org (Eric "Sparks" Christensen)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:35:51 -0500
Subject: Fedora Docs Meeting Reminder
Message-ID: <4B28E237.1070907@fedoraproject.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

REMINDER: There will be a Fedora Docs Meeting today at 0001 UTC. The
agenda can be found at:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting
- -- 
- --Eric
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From sparks at fedoraproject.org  Wed Dec 16 13:44:13 2009
From: sparks at fedoraproject.org (Eric "Sparks" Christensen)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:44:13 -0500
Subject: Zikula Weekly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4B28665F.1060805@redhat.com>
References: <4B2862FA.8010501@fedoraproject.org> <4B28665F.1060805@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B28E42D.4050708@fedoraproject.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

For ease, let's use this: http://whenisgood.net/wrfR4X.  Please fill in
when you are available for a meeting each week.

- --Eric
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From bugzilla at redhat.com  Wed Dec 16 15:05:41 2009
From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:05:41 -0500
Subject: [Bug 505938] Need to package MediaAttach.
In-Reply-To: <bug-505938-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
References: <bug-505938-194009@bugzilla.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <200912161505.nBGF5fv4014225@bz-web2.app.phx.redhat.com>

Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
comments should be made in the comments box of this bug.


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=505938


Eric Christensen <eric at christensenplace.us> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|NEW                         |ASSIGNED
         AssignedTo|fedora-docs-list at redhat.com |eric at christensenplace.us




-- 
Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Dec 16 15:29:28 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:29:28 -0800
Subject: Zikula Weekly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4B28665F.1060805@redhat.com>
References: <4B2862FA.8010501@fedoraproject.org> <4B28665F.1060805@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20091216152928.GF4132@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:47:27PM -0500, Mel Chua wrote:
> 
> If you'd like to help, don't know how to package, but want to learn, 
> there are a bunch of us in the same or close-to-the-same situation (me, 
> Karsten, Matthew Daniels, Aaron Clark, etc...) trying to get a Learn To 
> Package! week together - join us on the Classroom 
> (https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/classroom, 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom) mailing list if you're 
> interested, I'm going to start a thread there now.

We were discussing what to tackle, since doing actual classroom work
on a package we need makes even more sense, and I'm thinking we should
(try) to do a Zikula package; maybe an easier one?

Still, though, the week of 4 Jan is awful late for that, I should hope
we'd have them all in by then.

Can we get a few of y'all to list out to Fedora Planet, maybe
fedora-devel-list the specific needs we have?

I.e., not just "HALp!1!" but specific lists of what we know we need so
far.

- Karsten
-- 
name:  Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Sr. Community Gardener
team:                Red Hat Community Architecture 
uri:                  http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg:                                       AD0E0C41
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From mel at redhat.com  Thu Dec 17 04:35:51 2009
From: mel at redhat.com (Mel Chua)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:35:51 -0500
Subject: Zikula Weekly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20091216152928.GF4132@calliope.phig.org>
References: <4B2862FA.8010501@fedoraproject.org> <4B28665F.1060805@redhat.com>
	<20091216152928.GF4132@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <4B29B527.20906@redhat.com>

> Can we get a few of y'all to list out to Fedora Planet, maybe
> fedora-devel-list the specific needs we have?
>
> I.e., not just "HALp!1!" but specific lists of what we know we need so
> far.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Insight#Packaging is what I know 
about, which mostly links to 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula#Module_status.

At our first meeting we should go through and make sure that list is up 
to date, and then go "HALP!"

--Mel



From sparks at fedoraproject.org  Thu Dec 17 04:56:24 2009
From: sparks at fedoraproject.org (Eric "Sparks" Christensen)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:56:24 -0500
Subject: Docs Meeting 2009-12-17 IRC log
Message-ID: <4B29B9F8.9090306@fedoraproject.org>

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Hash: SHA1

23:59:54 <sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
23:59:54 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec 16 23:59:54 2009 UTC.  The
chair is sparks. Information about MeetBot at
http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:59:54 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea
#link #topic.
00:00:00 <sparks> #chair jjmcd
00:00:00 <zodbot> Current chairs: jjmcd sparks
00:00:10 <sparks> #topic Roll Call
00:00:11 * sparks
00:00:15 * ianweller
00:01:33 * bcotton is here
00:01:46 * rudi is here
00:01:56 * jjmcd .
00:03:12 * sparks gives everyone a few more minutes to trickle in
00:03:30 * Tsagadai is here
00:06:02 <sparks> Okay, let's get started
00:06:08 <sparks> #topic Action items from last week's meeting
00:06:19 <sparks> Sparks to send a message to L10N and Logistics about a
docs planning meeting for early next week
00:06:31 <sparks> Yeah, that didn't happen.  Still working on it, though.
00:07:10 <sparks> #action sparks to coordinate a meeting between docs,
L10N, and others on translation questions and F13 schedule.
00:07:19 <sparks> jjmcd to review poelcat's schedule and come up with a
recommendation before the meeting
00:07:36 <jjmcd> done - link in agenda
00:07:36 <sparks> jjmcd: Is your action items waiting on my action item?
00:07:42 <sparks> Oh!
00:07:42 <jjmcd> No
00:07:55 <sparks> #link
http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F13-RelNotes-MajorTasks.html
00:07:56 <jjmcd> Mostly I want to focus on getting the core deliverables
right
00:08:01 <sparks> Excellent
00:08:17 <sparks> Okay, moving on...
00:08:23 <sparks> #topic Release Notes
00:08:27 <jjmcd> For F12 all the clutter caused us to miss an important
detail - the schedule had us building the rpm two weeks after jesse
needed it
00:08:39 <sparks> There is a question...  Should L10n merge POs?
00:08:59 <sparks> Yes, the F12 schedule wasn't ideal...
00:09:08 <jjmcd> I am feeling like they ought to be paying the price of
not getting the new tfx up
00:09:30 <jjmcd> As long as we are a crutch for them, they really have
no reason to get off dead center
00:10:15 <sparks> I'm okay with doing things like RH does them... let
the translators do everything
00:10:33 <jjmcd> Now, logistically, this might not be realistic, but I
think we should at least make the threat
00:10:48 <rudi> I think it's the right direction to be heading
00:11:25 <sparks> I'm not sure that logistically it's not realistic.  It
certainly is possible.  A lot of our business practices would have to
change.
00:11:35 <rudi> +1 sparks
00:12:01 <sparks> BUT you wouldn't have things like the French pulling
their translations.  If they weren't ready then they wouldn't publish them
00:12:14 <rudi> I don't know whether shifting all the burden for
producing and publishing the translated docs can go from Docs -> L10N in
the space of one release
00:12:15 <jjmcd> yeah, I mean in principle it seems to make sense, but I
got the impression that a lot of their translators had very limited
technical capability so it might all fall on glezos
00:12:22 <sparks> rudi: Hell, I've shaken everything else up around here...
00:12:28 <rudi> lolz
00:12:30 <jjmcd> hehe
00:12:57 <rudi> jjmcd -- I think there would be a *lot* of hand-holding
to begin with
00:12:58 <sparks> Well... if we are going to rotate our practice around
the tool, then the tool better be easy to use.
00:13:11 <sparks> Luckily Publican 1.x isn't difficult
00:13:26 <jjmcd> yeah -- but I think many, maybe even most, actually do
the translation in aarghh windows
00:13:30 <sparks> rudi: We could push information into the translators guide
00:13:34 <sparks> which we should do anyway
00:13:43 <rudi> jjmcd -- fortauntely, Publican 1 runs fine on Windows :)
00:13:52 <jjmcd> Oh, is that right!!!
00:13:54 * sparks wouldn't know about that
00:13:55 <jjmcd> holy smokes
00:14:04 <rudi> Mac is coming RSN :)
00:14:45 <jjmcd> that could be a big win then
00:14:49 <rudi> sparks -- yeah; I plan to update parts of the TQSG
shortly to cover Publican 1 usage
00:14:58 <jjmcd> If the translators could immediately see their product
00:15:01 <sparks> rudi: +1
00:15:19 <rudi> The problem is still the interoperabilty of Publican and
Transifex though
00:15:40 <sparks> well... they should know how to build their documents
even if the "owner" is still going to handle the publishing.
00:15:44 <jjmcd> Oh, yeah, so they might have Publican on win, but not
msgmerge
00:16:04 <sparks> Well... Transifex needs to be updated... period
00:16:05 <rudi> Actually, the gettext tools are packaged for Windows too
00:16:21 <rudi> And are included in the Publican installer .exe too :)
00:16:34 <jjmcd> Ahhh, now that's a plan
00:16:37 <rudi> But yeah; the Transifex problem is real and growing
00:16:44 <jjmcd> growing?
00:17:15 <rudi> Translators have had multiple issues over the last few
weeks with accessing and uploading files
00:17:37 <jjmcd> what has changed?
00:18:08 <rudi> Which has exposed the bigger problem in that the current
version is an unmaintained one, and that the Transifex guys don't really
have the time to maintain Fedora's instance
00:18:43 <rudi> I think in this case, it was specifically a bug in
infra; but it took an enormous amount of time to track down; which
caused a lot of grief for L10N
00:19:57 <sparks> Well, the plan to migrate to 0.7 is there
00:20:19 <sparks> Okay, anything else on this topic?
00:20:50 <sparks> #topic Status on CMS (Zikula)
00:21:00 <sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula#Module_status
00:21:12 <sparks> I wish David was here tonight...
00:21:19 <sparks> mchua_afk: You around?
00:21:36 <sparks> So there are still modules that need to be packaged...
00:21:52 <sparks> and apparently the new version of Zikula has a library
that needs to be yanked out and packaged.
00:22:08 <sparks> David is working that part but he needs some help.
00:22:49 <sparks> Anyone want to volunteer to help David with Zikula?
00:23:52 <sparks> I'm also going to need help with Limesurvey.
00:24:19 <sparks> It has several libs in it that I have to pull out.
I've never had to deal with that kind of thing so I'm not sure how to go
about doing that.
00:24:44 <sparks> #topic Does yum langpack support help us?
00:24:51 <sparks> #link
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/YumLangpackPlugin
00:25:17 <sparks> jjmcd: Did you add this?
00:25:47 <jjmcd> Sounds like if we package a guide and individual
langpack, people can install, say, user-guide and auto get their local lang
00:25:54 <sparks> juhp: You around?
00:25:56 <jjmcd> and they don't need to get them all
00:26:12 <sparks> Sounds cool.
00:26:28 <jjmcd> Doesn't seem to help RN but it does guides
00:26:28 * sparks was hoping Jens was monitoring IRC to talk about this.
00:26:32 <jjmcd> *HOWEVER*
00:26:55 <jjmcd> It looks to me that making the langpack is going to
take a bit of head scratching
00:27:07 <jjmcd> At least for html, not so much for yelp
00:27:31 <sparks> rudi: Is Jens in throwing distance?
00:28:22 <sparks> jjmcd: So it would be difficult to get it to work with
html but would work with yelp?
00:28:24 <rudi> sparks -- down the hall
00:28:33 <rudi> hang on :)
00:28:35 <sparks> rudi: Didn't know if you could throw something at him.
00:28:35 <jjmcd> Well, that's my read
00:28:49 <jjmcd> Not impossible, but it would take some creativity
00:29:08 <rudi> ping juhp
00:30:19 <sparks> rudi: Oh well...
00:30:29 <jjmcd> I think I could do it but I would hit it with a hell of
a big club.  stickster might be a little more elegant about it
00:30:35 <sparks> jjmcd: Well, I'd definitely be interested in how it
would all work.
00:30:36 <rudi> Hang on -- I'll try in person :)
00:31:38 <rudi> Sorry -- not at desk
00:31:52 <jjmcd> In yelp 2 you just add the omf, in 3, put the new
language in the right place and it all works
00:31:55 <sparks> rudi: That's okay
00:32:12 <jjmcd> In html it would take some editing during install.
00:32:20 <sparks> And 3 is coming out in Sep?
00:33:22 <sparks> shaunm: When is Yelp 3 coming out?
00:33:23 <jjmcd> Well, the Q isn't when it is coming out, it is when
will it be packaged
00:33:44 <sparks> jjmcd: Yeah, but as soon as it hits the streets we can
start playing
00:33:44 <jjmcd> But it is such a minor diff, the OMF ain't rocket science
00:34:57 <sparks> Okay...
00:35:07 <sparks> Well, this is all very interesting news.
00:35:37 <sparks> Anything else on this topic?
00:35:38 <jjmcd> I think doc langpacks are prolly F14 anyway.  Too risky
to try to use them for 13
00:35:58 <sparks> Can Publican make langpacks?
00:36:10 <sparks> or is it just the way they are "titled"?
00:37:23 <jjmcd> Publican can't package except in the trivial case
00:38:52 <jjmcd> but if we have langpack and if they are similar to RHEL
maybe we can talk them into it
00:38:54 <sparks> Okay, maybe we can get more details on this later.
00:39:03 <sparks> ya
00:39:17 <sparks> Okay... moving on
00:39:26 <sparks> #topic Guide Status
00:39:38 <sparks> Anyone want to talk about their Guides?
00:40:16 <Tsagadai> I'm making progress
00:40:18 <Tsagadai> :)
00:40:39 <rudi> Tsagadai -- did you see that bug about screenshots? :P
00:40:51 <Tsagadai> I go on leave soon so there won't be any significant
progress on that until january
00:41:00 <Tsagadai> but it is planned
00:42:07 <sparks> Anyone else?
00:43:06 * bcotton promises to have some kind of progress to report in
the first 2010 meeting
00:43:23 * sparks marks down bcotton's promise
00:43:34 <sparks> #topic New Guides
00:43:39 <sparks> Any new guides coming out?
00:44:45 <sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
00:44:55 <sparks> #link
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora%20Documentation&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED
00:44:56 <rudi> anross -- did you want to say something about QE and
bugzilla?
00:45:05 <sparks> We quite a few open tickets.
00:45:25 <anross> rudi:  didn't have a speech planned ;)
00:45:33 <sparks> If you have tickets assigned to your project please
grab them, mark them assigned, and try to work them.
00:45:50 <sparks> At least make sure the person who filed it knows the
ticket is being worked.
00:45:52 <anross> but... in general... how do people feel about having
someone progress bugs from modified to closed
00:46:09 <anross> 2nd set of eyes
00:46:46 <jjmcd> Well, a number of them are waiting for a push of F11
RN's.  The source has been updated, I don't know the translation status,
but mostly waiting for an rpm
00:47:48 <rudi> jjmcd -- and I think one of the blockers for that is
working out what to do with the PackageKit warning...
00:47:55 <jjmcd> That's F12
00:48:14 <jjmcd> And actually, I don't think thats a biggie
00:48:30 <jjmcd> more challenging is the CPU one, and I don't want to do
the two separately
00:49:06 <jjmcd> THe prob with the CPU one is that I can't figure out
how to find an authoratative answer.  We've had several "authorities"
with different opinions
00:49:32 <rudi> True
00:49:44 <shaunm> sparks: september, with gnome 3
00:50:01 <jjmcd> I haven't got much evidence to prefer one opinion over
another
00:50:24 <shaunm> there will be development releases before then, of
course.  but you won't want to target it until you're targetting gnome 3
00:51:00 <sparks> shaunm: cool
00:51:31 <sparks> jjmcd: Maybe just put in the higher of the two CPUs
and when the lesser one works then they are still happy
00:51:55 <jjmcd> I may just ask stickster_afk who to ask
00:52:07 <sparks> +1
00:52:23 <jjmcd> If I can catch him on one of those two minute intervals
in the AM when he's not _afk
00:52:33 <sparks> jjmcd: There are a lot of RN tickets out there that
are still flagged as NEW.
00:52:41 <sparks> good luck
00:52:45 <juhp> sparks: hi
00:52:46 <jjmcd> Oh, I'll look at them
00:53:02 <jjmcd> I thought I had most of the new ones
00:53:02 <sparks> Okay, anything else on the bugs?
00:53:18 <juhp> (ah langpacks)
00:53:27 <jjmcd> Hi Jens
00:53:32 <sparks> juhp: Hi!  We want to know more about the langpack
feature you are working on.  Can you wait a sec?
00:54:22 <juhp> yup np
00:54:26 <sparks> Okay...  moving on...
00:54:43 <sparks> #topic Langpack (again)
00:55:02 <sparks> juhp: So can you give us a brief overview of your
langpack feature?
00:55:16 <juhp> :)  sorry was in a phone meeting
00:55:45 <juhp> bug 536737
00:55:46 <buggbot> Bug
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=536737 medium,
medium, ---, panemade, ASSIGNED, Review Request: yum-langpacks -
langpacks plugin for yum
00:56:01 <juhp> yeah basically the package is ready to do into f13
00:56:50 <sparks> And what would it do for us?
00:56:51 <juhp> it is a pretty simple yum plugin that allows langpacks
for a user's locale etc to be autoinstalled when they install or update
a package
00:57:48 <juhp> so i didn't read all the context above but if you have a
master package and then translations were "langpacks" they could
probably be installed for the user
00:58:11 <jjmcd> OK, dumb question, what makes a langpack?
00:58:14 <sparks> Could this be done in anaconda, too?
00:58:21 <sparks> yeah, and what jjmcd said.
00:58:31 <juhp> yup
00:58:36 <juhp> <jjmcd> Sounds like if we package a guide and individual
langpack, people can install, say, user-guide and auto get their local lang
00:58:45 <juhp> sorry yup to ^
00:58:49 <rudi> juhp -- so, for example, if the masterpackage was
fedora-release-notes-en-US -- then users could automatically pull in
fedora-release-notes-de-DE ?
00:59:04 <juhp> for anaconda - currently it would probably have to go to
language support groups
00:59:15 <juhp> I haven't tested anaconda yet but it might work
00:59:47 <jjmcd> presumably, a langpack would have to have some install
script to merge it with the installed content
00:59:49 <juhp> rudi: I would prefer fedora-release-notes to
fedora-release-notes-en-US
01:00:07 <juhp> jjmcd: merge?
01:00:07 <rudi> OK -- but that's the mechanism :)
01:00:15 <juhp> rudi: yep
01:00:44 <jjmcd> Well, we are talking docs, so we don't have message
files laying around, we're not going to translate at run time
01:00:45 <rudi> juhp -- and what specifies something as a master package
or a "translation package"? Something in the .spec?
01:00:51 <juhp> rudi: I think fedora-release-notes-en-US would work too
so forget my comment above for this discussion anyway :)
01:01:13 <juhp> rudi: currently it is hardcoded in the plugin ;)
01:01:22 <rudi> Awesome :)
01:01:34 <juhp> I am planning to have metadata you can provide later
01:01:42 <juhp> s/have/support/
01:02:33 <juhp> rudi: do yeah for now you could just file a bug and I
can add base/langpacks pairs to the list
01:02:39 <juhp> s/do/so
01:02:46 <rudi> Wow!
01:02:57 <rudi> That's a very cool solution :()
01:02:58 <juhp> is it good? :)
01:03:00 <rudi> :) even
01:03:05 <juhp> ok :)
01:03:07 <juhp> thanks
01:03:44 <rudi> We had been idly wishing last week that PackageKit could
do something like this :)
01:03:49 <juhp> rudi: you may still need to add them in comps too though
for <language>-support groups
01:03:51 <rudi> And Jens makes it happen :)
01:04:02 <sparks> juhp: Can you come back next week and talk more about
this?
01:04:08 <juhp> yeah it would have been in f12 if I had been a bit faster...
01:04:13 <juhp> sure
01:04:19 <sparks> cool
01:04:28 <juhp> but next week it should be in rawhide too...
01:04:30 <juhp> by
01:04:52 <juhp> the package is approved but I didn't have time to import
it yet :)
01:05:08 <juhp> glad you guys want to use it :)
01:05:29 <sparks> cool!
01:05:43 <juhp> thanks for asking :)
01:06:00 <sparks> Okay, any other questions for Jens while we have him
on RH's dime?
01:06:34 <sparks> juhp: Thanks for coming by to chat.
01:06:41 <juhp> pleasure
01:06:45 <sparks> #topic Anything else?
01:06:54 <sparks> Okay, is there anything else anyone wants to talk about?
01:07:41 <jjmcd> Did you see S1775 passed unanimously
01:07:55 <sparks> yes!  :)
01:08:00 <jjmcd> (OT but "anything else ;-))
01:08:27 * sparks already sent it to the packet network
01:08:45 <jjmcd> hehe - I have a cron job does that
01:09:03 <sparks> Okay... anyone?  anything?
01:09:31 <sparks> Well....
01:09:41 <sparks> Thanks everyone for coming out!
01:09:46 <sparks> #endmeeting

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From sparks at fedoraproject.org  Thu Dec 17 04:57:19 2009
From: sparks at fedoraproject.org (Eric "Sparks" Christensen)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:57:19 -0500
Subject: Docs Meeting 2009-12-17 Summary
Message-ID: <4B29BA2F.1090903@fedoraproject.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

===================================================================================================
#Fedora-Meeting: Docs Project Meeting - Agenda:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
===================================================================================================


Meeting started by sparks at 23:59:54 UTC. The full logs are available
at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2009-12-16/fedora-meeting.2009-12-16-23.59.log.html
.



Meeting summary
- ---------------
* Roll Call  (sparks, 00:00:10)

* Action items from last week's meeting  (sparks, 00:06:08)
  * ACTION: sparks to coordinate a meeting between docs, L10N, and
    others on translation questions and F13 schedule.  (sparks,
    00:07:10)
  * LINK: http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F13-RelNotes-MajorTasks.html
    (sparks, 00:07:55)

* Release Notes  (sparks, 00:08:23)

* Status on CMS (Zikula)  (sparks, 00:20:50)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula#Module_status   (sparks,
    00:21:00)

* Does yum langpack support help us?  (sparks, 00:24:44)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/YumLangpackPlugin
    (sparks, 00:24:51)

* Guide Status  (sparks, 00:39:26)

* New Guides  (sparks, 00:43:34)

* Outstanding BZ Tickets  (sparks, 00:44:45)
  * LINK:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora%20Documentation&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED
    (sparks, 00:44:55)

* Langpack (again)  (sparks, 00:54:43)

* Anything else?  (sparks, 01:06:45)

Meeting ended at 01:09:46 UTC.




Action Items
- ------------
* sparks to coordinate a meeting between docs, L10N, and others on
  translation questions and F13 schedule.




Action Items, by person
- -----------------------
* sparks
  * sparks to coordinate a meeting between docs, L10N, and others on
    translation questions and F13 schedule.
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
- ---------------------------
* sparks (103)
* jjmcd (52)
* rudi (34)
* juhp (34)
* Tsagadai (5)
* zodbot (3)
* anross (3)
* bcotton (2)
* shaunm (2)
* ianweller (1)
* buggbot (1)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
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From bcotton+fedora at gmail.com  Thu Dec 17 17:20:15 2009
From: bcotton+fedora at gmail.com (Ben Cotton)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:20:15 -0500
Subject: RPM Guide and RPM Max
In-Reply-To: <20090716215658.GC24072@calliope.phig.org>
References: <207B4B40D82E4BC68A319D06EBE12698@Aidan>
	<20090710131235.GC28530@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090716215658.GC24072@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <87f35b5e0912170920x1f34aaecw473633fc3562244a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Karsten Wade <kwade at redhat.com> wrote:

> Ah, good point. ?He did that at our request, and it is covered by the
> CLA, but even simple courtesy says, let's ask. ?I take care of that.
>
So I made a promise last night that I'd actually get something done on
the RPM Guide in the near future.  It seems everyone is in agreement
that we should absorb Maximum RPM into the RPM Guide and get the Guide
up-to-date and maintained.

Quaid, is Eric Foster-Johnson amenable to the re-licensing that we're
forcing on the Guide?

Everyone, since this is my first attempt at such work, I'm going to
need a lot of help knowing what needs to be changed and how it should
look.  If you're aware of changes that need to be made, please bombard
me with Bugzilla entries or gentle, loving advice via e-mail, etc.
I'll hang out in IRC a lot more, too.

I know it's been a while since I volunteered to oversee the RPM Guide,
and I feel bad that it has continued to be dormant.  I do want to
start moving it forward, so any help I can get from the seasoned vets
would be great. It's about time I started earning my salary here. :-)


Thanks,
BC

-- 
Ben Cotton



From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Dec 17 21:54:09 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:54:09 -0800
Subject: Mission statement questions
Message-ID: <20091217215409.GP4132@calliope.phig.org>

We have a mission as a sub-project:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_mission_statement

  The mission of the Fedora Documentation Project is to provide
  documentation to users and developers to improve the overall usage
  of Fedora. We do that by explaining the usage of certain pieces of
  software or systems, provide written accounts of special events
  (releases, etc), and provide recommendations on setting of software
  or systems (security, performance, etc).

At a few reads, I don't really recognize any of the content.  It has a
few sentences that introduce newer ideas than I recall being in
there.  One is welcome in my mind (special events), one is an odd duck
(provide recommendations).

Also, some content is missing that I recall from before.  The gist
was, the project has a goal to produce 100% FLOSS content, tools, and
processes.  This goal fits in to the overall Fedora Project objective
of being entirely rebuildable from source.

Anyone know the history of the transition of the mission content?  Was
this discussed and I missed it?

Otherwise, I'd like to discuss this mission statement.

I posted some questions on these right here:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Docs_Project_mission_statement

With a recommendation for an update here:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Docs_Project_mission_statement#Recommendation_for_a_new_mission_statement

Your thoughts are appreciated.  It's _our_ mission, after all.

- Karsten
-- 
name:  Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Sr. Community Gardener
team:                Red Hat Community Architecture 
uri:                  http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg:                                       AD0E0C41
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From poelstra at redhat.com  Fri Dec 18 01:32:50 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:32:50 -0800
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com> <1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>	
	<4B281625.1040609@redhat.com> <1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>
Message-ID: <4B2ADBC2.1020806@redhat.com>

On 12/15/2009 04:24 PM, John J. McDonough wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 15:05 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
>> I'll try to see what I can do with this, but it doesn't address my
>> original request below.
>
> Yeah, but 90% of it doesn't matter.
>
> It really doesn't make a lot of difference whether you arrange the
> furniture or hang the pictures first, but you don't want to hang the
> pictures before you paint the wall, and oh yeah, maybe you need to put
> up the wall before you can paint it.
>
> In F12 there was so much clutter that we missed some key items. That's
> why I'm focusing on getting the house built before I worry about
> decorating it.
>

Okay.  This is the first time I've heard this so as you can imagine it's 
kind of hitting me out of the blue.  Are you wanting to start the 
schedule from scratch and thus remove the parts you consider "clutter?"

Can you clarify what you expect our starting point to be at Tuesday's 
meeting so that I'm coming with the right expectations? (choose one)
   a) Blank slate
   b) Re-work draft I posted
   c) Your version

> John, are these all part of a master schedule with dependencies between
> the teams, or is each team's plan independent?  If we can just get the
> dependencies right we ought to have the dates right.

Both.  Most of the docs tasks depend on each other, but often when they 
start is depended on other teams or schedule milestones.  We've been 
trying to get the dependencies correct for a few releases... each time 
we're (hopefully) getting a little bit closer.

Thanks,
John



From poelstra at redhat.com  Fri Dec 18 04:10:46 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:10:46 -0800
Subject: Schedule Review Meeting :: Tuesday 2009-12-22 @ 8 PM EST /
 (2009-12-23 @ 1:00 UTC)
Message-ID: <4B2B00C6.8050507@redhat.com>

Thanks for the feedback everyone gave.  It appears that next Tuesday @ 
20:00 EST will be the best date and time.

We will be working in real time using Fedora Talk: Extension 2009 and gobby

http://talk.fedoraproject.org/
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/GobbyHowTo

Look forward to talking to everyone then.

John



From poelstra at redhat.com  Fri Dec 18 04:12:22 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:12:22 -0800
Subject: Schedule Review Meeting :: Tuesday 2009-12-22 @ 8 PM EST /
 (2009-12-23 @ 1:00 UTC)
Message-ID: <4B2B0126.8040004@redhat.com>

Thanks for the feedback everyone gave.  It appears that next Tuesday @ 
20:00 EST will be the best date and time.

We will be working in real time using Fedora Talk: Extension 2009 and gobby

http://talk.fedoraproject.org/
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/GobbyHowTo

Look forward to talking to everyone then.

John



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Dec 18 20:55:36 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:55:36 -0500
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com> <1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>
	<4B281625.1040609@redhat.com> <1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>
Message-ID: <20091218205536.GN20625@victoria.internal.frields.org>

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 07:24:33PM -0500, John J. McDonough wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 15:05 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
> > I'll try to see what I can do with this, but it doesn't address my 
> > original request below.
> 
> Yeah, but 90% of it doesn't matter.
> 
> It really doesn't make a lot of difference whether you arrange the
> furniture or hang the pictures first, but you don't want to hang the
> pictures before you paint the wall, and oh yeah, maybe you need to put
> up the wall before you can paint it.
> 
> In F12 there was so much clutter that we missed some key items. That's
> why I'm focusing on getting the house built before I worry about
> decorating it.
> 
> John, are these all part of a master schedule with dependencies between
> the teams, or is each team's plan independent?  If we can just get the
> dependencies right we ought to have the dates right.

They are all part of a master schedule which John and others including
me consult for information.  The source is published on John'd
fedorapeople.org area each release.  This allows people to use the
identical tools and produce meaningful diffs with comments if they
feel that's useful.

We always appreciate input and suggestions to make the schedule tasks
and dates work better.  If anyone wants to produce something in the
tool set, they're encouraged to use the source and tools (taskjuggler)
to do so.  It's well-nigh impossible to relegate schedule data from
completely different tools.

I suspect the talk next week will help a lot in this regard. I'd also
recommend that people on the team think about how we could use the
resulting schedule in regular meetings to stay on top of approaching
tasks.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Fri Dec 18 22:55:43 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:55:43 -0500
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com>
	<1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan><4B281625.1040609@redhat.com>
	<1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>
	<20091218205536.GN20625@victoria.internal.frields.org>
Message-ID: <A7CE4DC8FE764F308372B07CBE28FEC4@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul W. Frields" <stickster at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Documentation & Translation schedule review


> to do so.  It's well-nigh impossible to relegate schedule data from
> completely different tools.

I agree.  I was just using the quickest way to check that key items on 
John's list made sense.  That's why I didn't take time to schedule all the 
peripheral tasks.  Yes, we need to make sure they get done, but the web 
output is very hard to really understand.  (Not that the web output from 
planner is all that much better!).  It is very hard to see whether the key 
items are being appropriately handled.  A schedule with just the key items 
helps see that.  Even with just a handful of tasks, the Gantt chart is just 
too long and gangly to digest.

In Fedora 12, the schedule had us making the release notes rpm TWO WEEKS 
after RelEng needed it.  I wanted to avoid that this time.  Heck of it is, I 
spent a lot of time with John on that schedule, and paid pretty close 
attention to it, and never caught that little detail until the last minute. 
Fortunately I did catch it, barely in time.

> I suspect the talk next week will help a lot in this regard. I'd also

And that really is the point.  I need that visibility into the dependencies 
to make sure we don't miss the key items in our zeal to make sure we have 
all the details covered.

> recommend that people on the team think about how we could use the
> resulting schedule in regular meetings to stay on top of approaching
> tasks.

The problem was that we WERE paying attention to the schedule, and missing 
the larger problem.  I want to make sure we get the schedule right this 
time.  When we get in the midst of it, we really can't do anything but watch 
the schedule.  What's the saying, when you are ass deep in alligators it is 
hard to keep in mind your objective is to drain the swamp?  We need that 
roadmap, but we don't want it to get us to the station after the train has 
left.

There's always a lot to do, and I really appreciate John doing the heavy 
lifting here and making sure all the details are taken care of.  If I were 
doing it, it would be an unmitigated disaster.  But I do want to emphasize 
that there are a few very key tasks that drive the rest of the schedule, and 
most importantly, they are ultimately tied to RelEng.  We have the most 
touch points with L10N, but the key, date-determining connections are with 
RelEng, and somehow those got missed last time.

--McD



From bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com  Sun Dec 20 02:08:02 2009
From: bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com (Joseph Allen)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:08:02 -0600
Subject: Self-Introduction:
Message-ID: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com>

I will now introduce myself, starting with what I have worked on in the
past.

A while ago I worked on what I called The Linux Terminal Guide, an online
blog with some helpful How-To articles. One day I hoped to compile a bunch
of Man pages, but I realized that would not reach out to very many people. I
hope to help more people by writing How To articles for Fedora Docs. I do
not know what my skills would best be classified as but I do know how to use
the command line VERY well, i.e. I never really use the graphical package
manager. I guess you could say I know-my-way around Fedora as I have
"hacked" it, an example being that I as I write I am using Wmii with
Gnome-Panel. I do know how to use Web Servers and Administer web-sites. On
the side I like chatting with my friends and helping my mom with her
Fedora-enabled computer.

So what makes me an excellent match for the project? I feel that Fedora is
rather lacking some docs, and I want to help! I have rather good writing
skills and I know how to do a fair amount in Fedora. I look forward to
working on some Docs!

 As requested here is the output of gpg --fingerprint <yourKEYIDhere>:
[joseph at localhost ~]$ gpg --fingerprint 60A37A5D
pub   1024D/60A37A5D 2009-12-19
      Key fingerprint = 43EF DBB9 8299 73F6 1689  7206 091A D1B9 60A3 7A5D
uid                  Joseph Allen <bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com>
sub   2048g/4D7523E1 2009-12-19

-- 
JOSEPH ALLEN, C/A, CAP
G.V. 'Sonny' Montgomery Composite Squadron
SER-MS-102
Mississippi Wing Civil Air Patrol
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From rivanvx at gmail.com  Sun Dec 20 12:24:25 2009
From: rivanvx at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Vedran_Mileti=C4=87?=)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:24:25 +0100
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 3:08 AM, Joseph Allen
<bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com> wrote:
> I will now introduce myself, starting with what I have worked on in the
> past.
>
> A while ago I worked on what I called The Linux Terminal Guide, an online
> blog with some helpful How-To articles. One day I hoped to compile a bunch
> of Man pages, but I realized that would not reach out to very many people. I
> hope to help more people by writing How To articles for Fedora Docs. I do
> not know what my skills would best be classified as but I do know how to use
> the command line VERY well, i.e. I never really use the graphical package
> manager. I guess you could say I know-my-way around Fedora as I have
> "hacked" it, an example being that I as I write I am using Wmii with
> Gnome-Panel. I do know how to use Web Servers and Administer web-sites. On
> the side I like chatting with my friends and helping my mom with her
> Fedora-enabled computer.
>
> So what makes me an excellent match for the project? I feel that Fedora is
> rather lacking some docs, and I want to help! I have rather good writing
> skills and I know how to do a fair amount in Fedora. I look forward to
> working on some Docs!
>
> ?As requested here is the output of gpg --fingerprint <yourKEYIDhere>:
> [joseph at localhost ~]$ gpg --fingerprint 60A37A5D
> pub?? 1024D/60A37A5D 2009-12-19
> ????? Key fingerprint = 43EF DBB9 8299 73F6 1689? 7206 091A D1B9 60A3 7A5D
> uid????????????????? Joseph Allen <bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com>
> sub?? 2048g/4D7523E1 2009-12-19
>
> --
> JOSEPH ALLEN, C/A, CAP
> G.V. 'Sonny' Montgomery Composite Squadron
> SER-MS-102
> Mississippi Wing Civil Air Patrol
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>


Hi Joseph,

glad to see someone more willing to work on CLI stuff. Me and my
students have been working on CLI guide for past few weeks, and I will
be able to release it by the end of the week (as I have to write some
parts yet). If you want to work on it further and add knowledge of
your experience to it, that would be awesome.

As for the scope, it's somewhat similar to Mandriva CLI Reference [1],
but it's expanded in areas where I saw it lacking. I hope that you can
help extend it even further.

Regards,

-- 
Vedran Mileti?

[1] http://doc.mandrivalinux.com/MandrivaLinux/101/en/Command-Line.pdf



From bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com  Sun Dec 20 14:43:56 2009
From: bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com (Joseph Allen)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 08:43:56 -0600
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com>
	<fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I hope to begin working on more CLI things. A comprehensive guide seems
to be what Fedora's missing. I was able to learn due to the fact that I
began with computers when I was really young. My first dose of Linux was not
very good, the first time I tried to install I accidentally installed Ubuntu
on a USB Pen drive, but installed the MBR on my HD. It was rather annoying
due to the fact I had a modem connection at the time and Linux does not (and
I don't think it will ever) support my modem. So I didn't even use it but I
was forced to insert the USB drive into my computer at boot up. Eventually I
installed Fedora 10 onto my computer because Ubuntu didn't support my WiFi
at the time (Ubuntu still doesn't like my computer; neither does Apt-Get). I
immediately noticed the lack of almost any non-application specific help
files that weren't online. But I got through it. And, after all, I hope to
write a CLI guide extensive enough in some common-areas (like the ones that
I had to go through) to "guide" a user through common uses like compiling
kernel modules, maybe installing a Nvidia driver (or did they fix that it
Fedora 12? I haven't had a blank Cd-r to install it with), etc.

2009/12/20 Vedran Mileti? <rivanvx at gmail.com>

> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 3:08 AM, Joseph Allen
> <bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I will now introduce myself, starting with what I have worked on in the
> > past.
> >
> > A while ago I worked on what I called The Linux Terminal Guide, an online
> > blog with some helpful How-To articles. One day I hoped to compile a
> bunch
> > of Man pages, but I realized that would not reach out to very many
> people. I
> > hope to help more people by writing How To articles for Fedora Docs. I do
> > not know what my skills would best be classified as but I do know how to
> use
> > the command line VERY well, i.e. I never really use the graphical package
> > manager. I guess you could say I know-my-way around Fedora as I have
> > "hacked" it, an example being that I as I write I am using Wmii with
> > Gnome-Panel. I do know how to use Web Servers and Administer web-sites.
> On
> > the side I like chatting with my friends and helping my mom with her
> > Fedora-enabled computer.
> >
> > So what makes me an excellent match for the project? I feel that Fedora
> is
> > rather lacking some docs, and I want to help! I have rather good writing
> > skills and I know how to do a fair amount in Fedora. I look forward to
> > working on some Docs!
> >
> >  As requested here is the output of gpg --fingerprint <yourKEYIDhere>:
> > [joseph at localhost ~]$ gpg --fingerprint 60A37A5D
> > pub   1024D/60A37A5D 2009-12-19
> >       Key fingerprint = 43EF DBB9 8299 73F6 1689  7206 091A D1B9 60A3
> 7A5D
> > uid                  Joseph Allen <bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com>
> > sub   2048g/4D7523E1 2009-12-19
> >
> > --
> > JOSEPH ALLEN, C/A, CAP
> > G.V. 'Sonny' Montgomery Composite Squadron
> > SER-MS-102
> > Mississippi Wing Civil Air Patrol
> >
> > --
> > fedora-docs-list mailing list
> > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > To unsubscribe:
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> >
>
>
> Hi Joseph,
>
> glad to see someone more willing to work on CLI stuff. Me and my
> students have been working on CLI guide for past few weeks, and I will
> be able to release it by the end of the week (as I have to write some
> parts yet). If you want to work on it further and add knowledge of
> your experience to it, that would be awesome.
>
> As for the scope, it's somewhat similar to Mandriva CLI Reference [1],
> but it's expanded in areas where I saw it lacking. I hope that you can
> help extend it even further.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Vedran Mileti?
>
> [1] http://doc.mandrivalinux.com/MandrivaLinux/101/en/Command-Line.pdf
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list




-- 
JOSEPH ALLEN, C/A, CAP
G.V. 'Sonny' Montgomery Composite Squadron
SER-MS-102
Mississippi Wing Civil Air Patrol
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From rivanvx at gmail.com  Sun Dec 20 15:01:18 2009
From: rivanvx at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Vedran_Mileti=C4=87?=)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:01:18 +0100
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com> 
	<75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fd3eb9bf0912200701g51b06d45g5069c1ad851eee6c@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Joseph Allen
<bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, I hope to begin working on more CLI things. A comprehensive guide seems
> to be what Fedora's missing.

True. There was an attempt to create such documentation at some point,
but JamesMcElhannon eventually left it unfinished. I took off where he
stopped, expanded it, and made it fit what I teach in our Operating
systems laboratory (and perhaps a bit more).

> And, after all, I hope to
> write a CLI guide extensive enough in some common-areas (like the ones that
> I had to go through) to "guide" a user through common uses like compiling
> kernel modules, maybe installing a Nvidia driver (or did they fix that it
> Fedora 12? I haven't had a blank Cd-r to install it with), etc.

That's great. Just give me a couple of days to get drafts online, so
you can continue from that. Gotta love collaboration :-)

Regards,

-- 
Vedran Mileti?



From bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com  Sun Dec 20 20:53:45 2009
From: bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com (Joseph Allen)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 14:53:45 -0600
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <fd3eb9bf0912200701g51b06d45g5069c1ad851eee6c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com>
	<fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<fd3eb9bf0912200701g51b06d45g5069c1ad851eee6c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <75a9c3390912201253x37cfffaco83696785fcefdce1@mail.gmail.com>

Ok. Thanks for the info!

2009/12/20 Vedran Mileti? <rivanvx at gmail.com>

> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Joseph Allen
> <bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes, I hope to begin working on more CLI things. A comprehensive guide
> seems
> > to be what Fedora's missing.
>
> True. There was an attempt to create such documentation at some point,
> but JamesMcElhannon eventually left it unfinished. I took off where he
> stopped, expanded it, and made it fit what I teach in our Operating
> systems laboratory (and perhaps a bit more).
>
> > And, after all, I hope to
> > write a CLI guide extensive enough in some common-areas (like the ones
> that
> > I had to go through) to "guide" a user through common uses like compiling
> > kernel modules, maybe installing a Nvidia driver (or did they fix that it
> > Fedora 12? I haven't had a blank Cd-r to install it with), etc.
>
> That's great. Just give me a couple of days to get drafts online, so
> you can continue from that. Gotta love collaboration :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Vedran Mileti?
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
JOSEPH ALLEN, C/A, CAP
G.V. 'Sonny' Montgomery Composite Squadron
SER-MS-102
Mississippi Wing Civil Air Patrol
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From noriko at redhat.com  Mon Dec 21 04:57:44 2009
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:57:44 +1000
Subject: Schedule Review Meeting :: Tuesday 2009-12-22 @ 8 PM EST /
	(2009-12-23 @ 1:00 UTC)
In-Reply-To: <4B2B00C6.8050507@redhat.com>
References: <4B2B00C6.8050507@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B2F0048.4080903@redhat.com>

John Poelstra ????????:
> Thanks for the feedback everyone gave.  It appears that next Tuesday @ 
> 20:00 EST will be the best date and time.
> 
> We will be working in real time using Fedora Talk: Extension 2009 and gobby

Extension 2009 instead 2008?
My twinkle does not work for me, no idea. But Ekiga seems working, so 
cross my fingers.

http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-and-trans-tasks.html
This is where we refer, right?

noriko




From sparks at fedoraproject.org  Mon Dec 21 13:29:25 2009
From: sparks at fedoraproject.org (Eric "Sparks" Christensen)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:29:25 -0500
Subject: Schedule Review Meeting :: Tuesday 2009-12-22 @ 8 PM EST /
	(2009-12-23 @ 1:00 UTC)
In-Reply-To: <4B2B0126.8040004@redhat.com>
References: <4B2B0126.8040004@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B2F7835.9000309@fedoraproject.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 12/17/2009 11:12 PM, John Poelstra wrote:
> Thanks for the feedback everyone gave.  It appears that next Tuesday @
> 20:00 EST will be the best date and time.
> 
> We will be working in real time using Fedora Talk: Extension 2009 and gobby
> 
> http://talk.fedoraproject.org/
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/GobbyHowTo
> 
> Look forward to talking to everyone then.
> 
> John

I never got the other meeting squared away that would answer a lot of
questions that need to be answered before this meeting.  Hopefully we'll
have participation from everyone that was needed for the previous
meeting so we can discuss those items as well.

Things that need to be discussed:
- - What is the impact to the translators if we start pushing pot files
now and update them on a nightly/weekly basis?  (It seems to me that
this would mean that the translators would get smaller bits to translate
over a longer period of time making the overall process a little easier
to swallow.)

- - When is Transifex 0.7 hitting the streets?  (This is really going to
be a large blocker for F13 documents.  The current Transifex just isn't
working for us (docs) or the translators.)

- - Can we get the translators involved with publishing the translated
documents?

Those three questions above need to be answered.  The answers will
likely change the schedule.

- --Eric
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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Mon Dec 21 16:44:30 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:44:30 -0500
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0912210844t51e2976fo467f9f4acfd25db7@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Joseph Allen  wrote:
> I will now introduce myself, starting with what I have worked on in the
> past.
>
> A while ago I worked on what I called The Linux Terminal Guide, an online
> blog with some helpful How-To articles. One day I hoped to compile a bunch
> of Man pages, but I realized that would not reach out to very many people. I
> hope to help more people by writing How To articles for Fedora Docs. I do
> not know what my skills would best be classified as but I do know how to use
> the command line VERY well, i.e. I never really use the graphical package
> manager. I guess you could say I know-my-way around Fedora as I have
> "hacked" it, an example being that I as I write I am using Wmii with
> Gnome-Panel. I do know how to use Web Servers and Administer web-sites. On
> the side I like chatting with my friends and helping my mom with her
> Fedora-enabled computer.
>
> So what makes me an excellent match for the project? I feel that Fedora is
> rather lacking some docs, and I want to help! I have rather good writing
> skills and I know how to do a fair amount in Fedora. I look forward to
> working on some Docs!
>
>  As requested here is the output of gpg --fingerprint :
> [joseph at localhost ~]$ gpg --fingerprint 60A37A5D
> pub   1024D/60A37A5D 2009-12-19
>       Key fingerprint = 43EF DBB9 8299 73F6 1689  7206 091A D1B9 60A3 7A5D
> uid                  Joseph Allen
> sub   2048g/4D7523E1 2009-12-19
>
> --
> JOSEPH ALLEN, C/A, CAP
> G.V. 'Sonny' Montgomery Composite Squadron
> SER-MS-102
> Mississippi Wing Civil Air Patrol
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>

Hi Joseph:

Welcome -
We meet on Wednesday's in irc you can find details here:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Steering_Committee_meetings

Most of our formal guides are written in DocBook XML and we use
Publican to publish. You may want to take a gander at something
already written:
The below line will get you a copy of the install-guide
git clone git://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/install-guide.git

We also work off the wiki a good bit, and are in large part the wiki gardeners.

Feel free to jump in and start working. If you see a document you want
to work in, just ask on list, the document lead will likely pipe up
and you can move from there.



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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Mon Dec 21 17:05:04 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:05:04 -0500
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com> 
	<75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0912210905w699cada7xffc38134fea685b3@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Joseph Allen  wrote:
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> I had to go through) to "guide" a user through common uses like compiling
> kernel modules, maybe installing a Nvidia driver (or did they fix that it
> Fedora 12? I haven't had a blank Cd-r to install it with), etc.
>

Just a comment - and perhaps it is a philosophical one. Personally I
don't think documentation on installing Nvidia drivers is appropriate
for Fedora. One of Fedora' core beliefs is Freedom, and the Nvidia
binary blob kernel driver is certainly non-free. In addition, you'd be
documenting software that we don't provide, and have no control over.

The Fedora Project's mission is: The Fedora Project's mission is to
lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a
collaborative community.
(http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#Our_Mission)

I don't think we advance free software by providing assistance for,
and thus give our tacit approval for non-free software. It even
further is a bad idea when we've essentially said we won't provide
support for people using the binary blob driver to then lead them down
the path of using something we won't support. Add to that the fact
that kernel developers will not support any tained kernels, and that
they claim that it's both undesirable and harmful to the future of
Linux and free software:
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/publications/kernel-driver-statement

In light of all of that, I don't see how Fedora can ship documentation
that contains content on installing nvidia binary drivers. (Especially
when we are working so hard on the Nouveau front)

That said, please don't let this discourage you, we are excited for
you to jump in, but take this into consideration as you proceed.



From bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com  Mon Dec 21 17:28:20 2009
From: bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com (Joseph Allen)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:28:20 -0600
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <d6e6dfeb0912210905w699cada7xffc38134fea685b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com>
	<fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6e6dfeb0912210905w699cada7xffc38134fea685b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <75a9c3390912210928r71b17d6fm889074ce6444de68@mail.gmail.com>

Oh well yes, I meant the Nouveau driver. The non free one I hate badly due
to the fact that it broke my mom's computer when she did a kernel update
(although she could have done a hard reboot during a kernel update... She
doesn't seem to get that doing such things cause bad errors). She has to
boot into a older kernel version just to start X! But yes, I would not give
a guide to that wretched piece of software after what it did to her
computer. I just know that there has to be something to help people who have
Nvidia graphics cards. When I first installed Fedora 11 on my mom's computer
the goal was to improve Flash (which skipped and sometimes wouldn't play on
MS Vista). But after installation the refresh rate on screen was once every
second. So I was just pointing out that unless they fixed that in Fedora 12
there needs to be a guide to getting Nvidia to work. Otherwise some people
will just not use Fedora due to the fact that a low refresh rate and VGA
resolution won't make them very happy.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:05 AM, David Nalley <
david.nalley at fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Joseph Allen  wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Use GnuPG with Firefox : http://getfiregpg.org (Version: 0.7.10)
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>
>
> > I had to go through) to "guide" a user through common uses like compiling
> > kernel modules, maybe installing a Nvidia driver (or did they fix that it
> > Fedora 12? I haven't had a blank Cd-r to install it with), etc.
> >
>
> Just a comment - and perhaps it is a philosophical one. Personally I
> don't think documentation on installing Nvidia drivers is appropriate
> for Fedora. One of Fedora' core beliefs is Freedom, and the Nvidia
> binary blob kernel driver is certainly non-free. In addition, you'd be
> documenting software that we don't provide, and have no control over.
>
> The Fedora Project's mission is: The Fedora Project's mission is to
> lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a
> collaborative community.
> (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#Our_Mission)
>
> I don't think we advance free software by providing assistance for,
> and thus give our tacit approval for non-free software. It even
> further is a bad idea when we've essentially said we won't provide
> support for people using the binary blob driver to then lead them down
> the path of using something we won't support. Add to that the fact
> that kernel developers will not support any tained kernels, and that
> they claim that it's both undesirable and harmful to the future of
> Linux and free software:
>
> https://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/publications/kernel-driver-statement
>
> In light of all of that, I don't see how Fedora can ship documentation
> that contains content on installing nvidia binary drivers. (Especially
> when we are working so hard on the Nouveau front)
>
> That said, please don't let this discourage you, we are excited for
> you to jump in, but take this into consideration as you proceed.
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
JOSEPH ALLEN, C/A, CAP
G.V. 'Sonny' Montgomery Composite Squadron
SER-MS-102
Mississippi Wing Civil Air Patrol
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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Mon Dec 21 18:02:49 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:02:49 -0500
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <75a9c3390912210928r71b17d6fm889074ce6444de68@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com> 
	<75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com> 
	<d6e6dfeb0912210905w699cada7xffc38134fea685b3@mail.gmail.com> 
	<75a9c3390912210928r71b17d6fm889074ce6444de68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0912211002v60ecca18y8dc8180af10c8c78@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Joseph Allen  wrote:
> Oh well yes, I meant the Nouveau driver. The non free one I hate badly due
> to the fact that it broke my mom's computer when she did a kernel update
> (although she could have done a hard reboot during a kernel update... She
> doesn't seem to get that doing such things cause bad errors). She has to
> boot into a older kernel version just to start X! But yes, I would not give
> a guide to that wretched piece of software after what it did to her
> computer. I just know that there has to be something to help people who have
> Nvidia graphics cards. When I first installed Fedora 11 on my mom's computer
> the goal was to improve Flash (which skipped and sometimes wouldn't play on
> MS Vista). But after installation the refresh rate on screen was once every
> second. So I was just pointing out that unless they fixed that in Fedora 12
> there needs to be a guide to getting Nvidia to work. Otherwise some people
> will just not use Fedora due to the fact that a low refresh rate and VGA
> resolution won't make them very happy


Ahh cool. I apologize for my rant then.
Honestly at this point it should 'just work', and if it doesn't it
deserves filing a bug.
Nouveau became the default Nvidia driver in Fedora 11, and has made
tons of progress since then.
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From poelstra at redhat.com  Mon Dec 21 18:57:36 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:57:36 -0800
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <4B2ADBC2.1020806@redhat.com>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com>
	<1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>		<4B281625.1040609@redhat.com>
	<1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan> <4B2ADBC2.1020806@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B2FC520.90603@redhat.com>

On 12/17/2009 05:32 PM, John Poelstra wrote:
> On 12/15/2009 04:24 PM, John J. McDonough wrote:
>> On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 15:05 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
>>> I'll try to see what I can do with this, but it doesn't address my
>>> original request below.
>>
>> Yeah, but 90% of it doesn't matter.
>>
>> It really doesn't make a lot of difference whether you arrange the
>> furniture or hang the pictures first, but you don't want to hang the
>> pictures before you paint the wall, and oh yeah, maybe you need to put
>> up the wall before you can paint it.
>>
>> In F12 there was so much clutter that we missed some key items. That's
>> why I'm focusing on getting the house built before I worry about
>> decorating it.
>>
>
> Okay. This is the first time I've heard this so as you can imagine it's
> kind of hitting me out of the blue. Are you wanting to start the
> schedule from scratch and thus remove the parts you consider "clutter?"
>
> Can you clarify what you expect our starting point to be at Tuesday's
> meeting so that I'm coming with the right expectations? (choose one)
> a) Blank slate
> b) Re-work draft I posted
> c) Your version
>
>> John, are these all part of a master schedule with dependencies between
>> the teams, or is each team's plan independent? If we can just get the
>> dependencies right we ought to have the dates right.
>
> Both. Most of the docs tasks depend on each other, but often when they
> start is depended on other teams or schedule milestones. We've been
> trying to get the dependencies correct for a few releases... each time
> we're (hopefully) getting a little bit closer.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>

I'm still not clear what our starting point for tomorrow night's meeting 
is.  Since I haven't seen a response (forgive me if I missed one) I'm 
assuming we will be using (#b):

http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-trans-schedule-review.txt

I have already put it on gobby.  Feel free to start editing gobby now.

Note, the names of some of the releng milestones (Beta Freeze and Final 
Freeze) changed to match: 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Poelstra/Key_Milestones

What can really help make tomorrow's meeting tremendously faster is to 
populate the drafted version on gobby in advance with what you think the 
dates should be to address the concerns you raised at: 
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-December/msg00040.html 
Then we we can spend most of our time critiquing the draft instead of 
going line by line which will take a lot more time.

If you'd like to call out task dependencies, maybe add that as part of 
the task name in ( ).

I spent some more time today trying to understand the issues you are 
raising in the email and 
http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F13-RelNotes-MajorTasks.html but it is not 
completely clear to me if these are the real dates you want to use or if 
this was just a "brainstorm."

Thanks,
John



From poelstra at redhat.com  Mon Dec 21 19:30:16 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:30:16 -0800
Subject: Schedule Review Meeting :: Tuesday 2009-12-22 @ 8 PM EST
	/	(2009-12-23 @ 1:00 UTC)
In-Reply-To: <4B2F0048.4080903@redhat.com>
References: <4B2B00C6.8050507@redhat.com> <4B2F0048.4080903@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B2FCCC8.1010002@redhat.com>

On 12/20/2009 08:57 PM, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> John Poelstra ????????:
>> Thanks for the feedback everyone gave. It appears that next Tuesday @
>> 20:00 EST will be the best date and time.
>>
>> We will be working in real time using Fedora Talk: Extension 2009 and
>> gobby
>
> Extension 2009 instead 2008?
> My twinkle does not work for me, no idea. But Ekiga seems working, so
> cross my fingers.
>
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-and-trans-tasks.html
>
> This is where we refer, right?
>
> noriko
>
>

Yes. I created a text friendly version at:
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-trans-schedule-review.txt

and also pasted it into gobby.  It is there now.

John



From bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com  Mon Dec 21 19:45:47 2009
From: bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com (Joseph Allen)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:45:47 -0600
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <d6e6dfeb0912211002v60ecca18y8dc8180af10c8c78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com>
	<fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6e6dfeb0912210905w699cada7xffc38134fea685b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<75a9c3390912210928r71b17d6fm889074ce6444de68@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6e6dfeb0912211002v60ecca18y8dc8180af10c8c78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <75a9c3390912211145o29bd214dq6c654781d367d418@mail.gmail.com>

It is ok. I do realize that I made no comment on whether I was referring to
the Nvidia Binary non-open source drivers or one of the open-source
alternatives. I really DO need to find a blank cd-r... or find my DVD-RW
writer. I really want to use Fedora 12, mainly due to the fact it supports
multiple pointers on-screen (last I heard). Is there a guide on setting up
thin-clients with Fedora? That is something that I would either like to use
or make, if it didn't exist already. I have several old computer lying
around the house and whenever a friend comes over it would be nice to be
able to set up a X Thin Client.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:02 PM, David Nalley <
david.nalley at fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Joseph Allen  wrote:
> > Oh well yes, I meant the Nouveau driver. The non free one I hate badly
> due
> > to the fact that it broke my mom's computer when she did a kernel update
> > (although she could have done a hard reboot during a kernel update... She
> > doesn't seem to get that doing such things cause bad errors). She has to
> > boot into a older kernel version just to start X! But yes, I would not
> give
> > a guide to that wretched piece of software after what it did to her
> > computer. I just know that there has to be something to help people who
> have
> > Nvidia graphics cards. When I first installed Fedora 11 on my mom's
> computer
> > the goal was to improve Flash (which skipped and sometimes wouldn't play
> on
> > MS Vista). But after installation the refresh rate on screen was once
> every
> > second. So I was just pointing out that unless they fixed that in Fedora
> 12
> > there needs to be a guide to getting Nvidia to work. Otherwise some
> people
> > will just not use Fedora due to the fact that a low refresh rate and VGA
> > resolution won't make them very happy
>
>
> Ahh cool. I apologize for my rant then.
> Honestly at this point it should 'just work', and if it doesn't it
> deserves filing a bug.
> Nouveau became the default Nvidia driver in Fedora 11, and has made
> tons of progress since then.
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Use GnuPG with Firefox : http://getfiregpg.org (Version: 0.7.10)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAksvuEkACgkQkZOYj+cNI1eFqACgii7rxMshxAtL07uBsi0LlTl/
> +acAn2uqzUnkOcZQ9SVGua2zJWY2LvCN
> =t1ni
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
JOSEPH ALLEN, C/A, CAP
G.V. 'Sonny' Montgomery Composite Squadron
SER-MS-102
Mississippi Wing Civil Air Patrol
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From noriko at redhat.com  Mon Dec 21 23:18:28 2009
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:18:28 +1000
Subject: Schedule Review Meeting :: Tuesday 2009-12-22 @ 8 PM EST
	/	(2009-12-23 @ 1:00 UTC)
In-Reply-To: <4B2F7835.9000309@fedoraproject.org>
References: <4B2B0126.8040004@redhat.com> <4B2F7835.9000309@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <4B300244.4060407@redhat.com>

Eric "Sparks" Christensen ????????:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 12/17/2009 11:12 PM, John Poelstra wrote:
>> Thanks for the feedback everyone gave.  It appears that next Tuesday @
>> 20:00 EST will be the best date and time.
>>
>> We will be working in real time using Fedora Talk: Extension 2009 and gobby
>>
>> http://talk.fedoraproject.org/
>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/GobbyHowTo
>>
>> Look forward to talking to everyone then.
>>
>> John
> 
> I never got the other meeting squared away that would answer a lot of
> questions that need to be answered before this meeting.  Hopefully we'll
> have participation from everyone that was needed for the previous
> meeting so we can discuss those items as well.
> 
> Things that need to be discussed:
> - - What is the impact to the translators if we start pushing pot files
> now and update them on a nightly/weekly basis?  (It seems to me that
> this would mean that the translators would get smaller bits to translate
> over a longer period of time making the overall process a little easier
> to swallow.)

+1, (unless great amount of the content is eventually removed), this 
especially would help smaller teams.

> 
> - - When is Transifex 0.7 hitting the streets?  (This is really going to
> be a large blocker for F13 documents.  The current Transifex just isn't
> working for us (docs) or the translators.)

Afaik, we are here;
https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1455#comment:21

It seems stopoing as at 12-Dec again...hum...

> 
> - - Can we get the translators involved with publishing the translated
> documents?

Sure, what can we do?

> 
> Those three questions above need to be answered.  The answers will
> likely change the schedule.

Okay, let's discuss further!

noriko



From noriko at redhat.com  Mon Dec 21 23:53:19 2009
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:53:19 +1000
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <4B2FC520.90603@redhat.com>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com>	<1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>		<4B281625.1040609@redhat.com>	<1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>
	<4B2ADBC2.1020806@redhat.com> <4B2FC520.90603@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B300A6F.7080401@redhat.com>


<snip>
> I have already put it on gobby.  Feel free to start editing gobby now.

The password I used for F12 is not working anymore...
Could you please guide me how to obtain one?

noriko

> 
> Note, the names of some of the releng milestones (Beta Freeze and Final 
> Freeze) changed to match: 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Poelstra/Key_Milestones
> 
> What can really help make tomorrow's meeting tremendously faster is to 
> populate the drafted version on gobby in advance with what you think the 
> dates should be to address the concerns you raised at: 
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-December/msg00040.html 
> Then we we can spend most of our time critiquing the draft instead of 
> going line by line which will take a lot more time.
> 
> If you'd like to call out task dependencies, maybe add that as part of 
> the task name in ( ).
> 
> I spent some more time today trying to understand the issues you are 
> raising in the email and 
> http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F13-RelNotes-MajorTasks.html but it is not 
> completely clear to me if these are the real dates you want to use or if 
> this was just a "brainstorm."
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> 



From noriko at redhat.com  Tue Dec 22 00:00:33 2009
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:00:33 +1000
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <4B300A6F.7080401@redhat.com>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com>	<1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>		<4B281625.1040609@redhat.com>	<1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>	<4B2ADBC2.1020806@redhat.com>
	<4B2FC520.90603@redhat.com> <4B300A6F.7080401@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B300C21.20207@redhat.com>

Sorry, pls ignore. I got the answer by myself...
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/GobbyHowTo#Get_the_Password

Noriko Mizumoto ????????:
> 
> <snip>
>> I have already put it on gobby.  Feel free to start editing gobby now.
> 
> The password I used for F12 is not working anymore...
> Could you please guide me how to obtain one?
> 
> noriko
> 
>>
>> Note, the names of some of the releng milestones (Beta Freeze and 
>> Final Freeze) changed to match: 
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Poelstra/Key_Milestones
>>
>> What can really help make tomorrow's meeting tremendously faster is to 
>> populate the drafted version on gobby in advance with what you think 
>> the dates should be to address the concerns you raised at: 
>> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-December/msg00040.html 
>> Then we we can spend most of our time critiquing the draft instead of 
>> going line by line which will take a lot more time.
>>
>> If you'd like to call out task dependencies, maybe add that as part of 
>> the task name in ( ).
>>
>> I spent some more time today trying to understand the issues you are 
>> raising in the email and 
>> http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F13-RelNotes-MajorTasks.html but it is 
>> not completely clear to me if these are the real dates you want to use 
>> or if this was just a "brainstorm."
>>
>> Thanks,
>> John
>>
> 



From noriko at redhat.com  Tue Dec 22 02:48:08 2009
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:48:08 +1000
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <4B2FC520.90603@redhat.com>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com>	<1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>		<4B281625.1040609@redhat.com>	<1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>
	<4B2ADBC2.1020806@redhat.com> <4B2FC520.90603@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4B303368.2070207@redhat.com>

<snip>
> I have already put it on gobby.  Feel free to start editing gobby now.

Done. Some noticeable points.

* Software has three weeks shorter than F12 between String Freeze and 
Beta Freeze.
F12 String Freeze 2009-08-04
F12 Beta Freeze 2009-9-29
(Total 8 weeks)

F13 String Freeze 2010-2-16
F13 Beta Freeze 2010-3-23
(Total 5 weeks)

* Beta Release Notes translation deadline may need to be adjusted to 
make them available for Beta Release Public Availability.
F12 Beta Release Notes Translation Deadline 2009-10-12
F12 Beta Release Public Availability 2009-10-20

F13 Beta Release Notes Translation Deadline 2010-4-16
F13 Beta Release Public Availability 2010-4-06

cheers
noriko



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Tue Dec 22 14:13:53 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:13:53 -0500
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <4B2FC520.90603@redhat.com>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com> <1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>
	<4B281625.1040609@redhat.com> <1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>
	<4B2ADBC2.1020806@redhat.com>  <4B2FC520.90603@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1261491233.4527.30.camel@Aidan>

On Mon, 2009-12-21 at 10:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:

> I'm still not clear what our starting point for tomorrow night's meeting 
> is.  Since I haven't seen a response (forgive me if I missed one) I'm 
> assuming we will be using (#b):
> 
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-trans-schedule-review.txt
> 
> I have already put it on gobby.  Feel free to start editing gobby now.

I had kind of hoped that you would fix the dependencies on your
schedule.  We are still building rpms later than we need them.

> Note, the names of some of the releng milestones (Beta Freeze and Final 
> Freeze) changed to match: 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Poelstra/Key_Milestones
> 
> What can really help make tomorrow's meeting tremendously faster is to 
> populate the drafted version on gobby in advance with what you think the 
> dates should be to address the concerns you raised at: 
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-December/msg00040.html 
> Then we we can spend most of our time critiquing the draft instead of 
> going line by line which will take a lot more time.

I'm not nearly as concerned with the dates as with the dependencies.
> 
> If you'd like to call out task dependencies, maybe add that as part of 
> the task name in ( ).
> 
> I spent some more time today trying to understand the issues you are 
> raising in the email and 
> http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F13-RelNotes-MajorTasks.html but it is not 
> completely clear to me if these are the real dates you want to use or if 
> this was just a "brainstorm."

Again, I'm not nearly as concerned with the dates as with the
dependencies.  I've put some comments in the gobby doc, but it is pretty
hard to follow in that format.

My main concerns are:
  - Build RPM before RelEng needs it, not after
  - Translate before build RPM
  - Write before translate

We seem to have the second two down, but the gobby sked still has us
building RPMs after RelEng needs them.

I do think we need a few days for the beta RPM, and probably the RC RPM.
It might make sense to make an RPM for RelEng's test compose, and leave
say 3 days for that, then make another RPM for the final compose.  That
one we could do in a day.  It only takes a few hours to make an RPM, but
we always seem to run into some sort of issue.  I figure if we deal with
those issues for test compose, we can allow translation to continue and
when we build for final compose we will have dealt with any issues that
arise.

We also don't quite understand what our interface with L10N looks like
this go. there are a number of issues we need to work there:

 - Is the new Transifex finally there?
 - If not, does L10N do the POT merging/PO splitting?
 - Do we do a ton of branches like we did for F12?
 - Does L10N make their own htmls as needed?
 - Does L10N do the push to docs.fp.o?

--McD




From poelstra at redhat.com  Tue Dec 22 18:15:41 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:15:41 -0800
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <1261491233.4527.30.camel@Aidan>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com> <1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>	
	<4B281625.1040609@redhat.com> <1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>	
	<4B2ADBC2.1020806@redhat.com> <4B2FC520.90603@redhat.com>
	<1261491233.4527.30.camel@Aidan>
Message-ID: <4B310CCD.3040101@redhat.com>

John J. McDonough said the following on 12/22/2009 06:13 AM Pacific Time:
 > On Mon, 2009-12-21 at 10:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
 >
 >> I'm still not clear what our starting point for tomorrow night's 
meeting
 >> is.  Since I haven't seen a response (forgive me if I missed one) I'm
 >> assuming we will be using (#b):
 >>
 >> 
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-trans-schedule-review.txt
 >>
 >> I have already put it on gobby.  Feel free to start editing gobby now.
 >
 > I had kind of hoped that you would fix the dependencies on your
 > schedule.  We are still building rpms later than we need them.
 >

It will be good to talk about this in real time tonight :)  It seems 
like we both have different understandings of what should happen next 
and I'm getting the sense we might be talking past each other which can 
definitely be frustrating.

What do you mean by "fixing the dependencies?"

I understood from the beginning that the dates were wrong, but I was 
looking to you to supply the correct dates.  I don't have a large stake 
in what the dates are so instead of me continuing to blindly propose 
dates I wanted you to tell me what they should be.  I was never clear if 
the schedule you proposed were the actual dates you wanted me to add to 
my schedule or simply an illustration or brainstorm you were sharing.

It would help me a lot if you could be extremely specific with what you 
are needing or expecting from me.  Something like, "John, please take 
the dates for the release notes from the bottom of the html page I 
created and replace tasks #__ to #__ on the schedule you created with 
them.  Have the releases notes start/depend on task #___ from release 
engineering."

 >> Note, the names of some of the releng milestones (Beta Freeze and Final
 >> Freeze) changed to match:
 >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Poelstra/Key_Milestones
 >>
 >> What can really help make tomorrow's meeting tremendously faster is to
 >> populate the drafted version on gobby in advance with what you think 
the
 >> dates should be to address the concerns you raised at:
 >> 
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-December/msg00040.html 

 >> Then we we can spend most of our time critiquing the draft instead of
 >> going line by line which will take a lot more time.
 >
 > I'm not nearly as concerned with the dates as with the dependencies.

I'd like to understand this better. What do you mean by "the 
dependencies?"  What problem are you trying to solve by seeing these 
dependencies?

To me the dependencies are inherent in the dates you propose.... one 
task follows another and can't start unless the previous task was 
completed. As set forth each task with its start and end date, I'm 
assuming this is being taken into account.

All this focus on the "dependencies" is new to me.  We've done several 
previous detailed reviews of the docs schedule and you are the first to 
raise this as such an important issue.  I want to help, but I'm failing 
to see how to provide you this information or what problem you're trying 
to solve.

 >> If you'd like to call out task dependencies, maybe add that as part of
 >> the task name in ( ).
 >>
 >> I spent some more time today trying to understand the issues you are
 >> raising in the email and
 >> http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F13-RelNotes-MajorTasks.html but it is 
not
 >> completely clear to me if these are the real dates you want to use 
or if
 >> this was just a "brainstorm."
 >
 > Again, I'm not nearly as concerned with the dates as with the
 > dependencies.  I've put some comments in the gobby doc, but it is pretty
 > hard to follow in that format.

I haven't found an easy way to review and create schedules virtually. In 
person we could have probably finished all of this in an hour. It is 
tedious and really not that fun of task.  Sometimes I have to print a 
schedule off, turn off my computer screen to fully concentrate and walk 
it through with a calendar nearby.

What format would be more helpful for you?

 >
 > My main concerns are:
 >   - Build RPM before RelEng needs it, not after
 >   - Translate before build RPM
 >   - Write before translate
 >
 > We seem to have the second two down, but the gobby sked still has us
 > building RPMs after RelEng needs them.

Yes, I'm waiting for you to insert whatever you want the dates to be.

 > I do think we need a few days for the beta RPM, and probably the RC RPM.
 > It might make sense to make an RPM for RelEng's test compose, and leave
 > say 3 days for that, then make another RPM for the final compose.  That
 > one we could do in a day.  It only takes a few hours to make an RPM, but
 > we always seem to run into some sort of issue.  I figure if we deal with
 > those issues for test compose, we can allow translation to continue and
 > when we build for final compose we will have dealt with any issues that
 > arise.

Please insert/change whatever you think the dates should be.

 > We also don't quite understand what our interface with L10N looks like
 > this go. there are a number of issues we need to work there:
 >
 >  - Is the new Transifex finally there?
 >  - If not, does L10N do the POT merging/PO splitting?
 >  - Do we do a ton of branches like we did for F12?
 >  - Does L10N make their own htmls as needed?
 >  - Does L10N do the push to docs.fp.o?
 >
 > --McD
 >
 >

Thanks for being patient with me.  I really do want to find a better way 
to do this :)

John



From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Tue Dec 22 20:11:47 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:11:47 -0500
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <75a9c3390912211145o29bd214dq6c654781d367d418@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com> 
	<75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com> 
	<d6e6dfeb0912210905w699cada7xffc38134fea685b3@mail.gmail.com> 
	<75a9c3390912210928r71b17d6fm889074ce6444de68@mail.gmail.com> 
	<d6e6dfeb0912211002v60ecca18y8dc8180af10c8c78@mail.gmail.com> 
	<75a9c3390912211145o29bd214dq6c654781d367d418@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6e6dfeb0912221211r18e40839lcfc33711d00258a8@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Joseph Allen  wrote:
> It is ok. I do realize that I made no comment on whether I was referring to
> the Nvidia Binary non-open source drivers or one of the open-source
> alternatives. I really DO need to find a blank cd-r... or find my DVD-RW
> writer. I really want to use Fedora 12, mainly due to the fact it supports
> multiple pointers on-screen (last I heard). Is there a guide on setting up
> thin-clients with Fedora? That is something that I would either like to use
> or make, if it didn't exist already. I have several old computer lying
> around the house and whenever a friend comes over it would be nice to be
> able to set up a X Thin Client.

There might be some documentation from the K12LTSP group, but I don't
think there is any Fedora documentation on the matter. You may want to
talk to the guys working on LTSP I am sure they would love for us to
pick up the documentation.


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Comment: Use GnuPG with Firefox : http://getfiregpg.org (Version: 0.7.10)

iEYEARECAAYFAksxKAQACgkQkZOYj+cNI1fr5wCePyi4G9FA07TCVfUZKCNYjQyr
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=nOsV
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From mel at redhat.com  Tue Dec 22 21:14:51 2009
From: mel at redhat.com (Mel Chua)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 16:14:51 -0500
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <d6e6dfeb0912221211r18e40839lcfc33711d00258a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com>
	<fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6e6dfeb0912210905w699cada7xffc38134fea685b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<75a9c3390912210928r71b17d6fm889074ce6444de68@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6e6dfeb0912211002v60ecca18y8dc8180af10c8c78@mail.gmail.com>
	<75a9c3390912211145o29bd214dq6c654781d367d418@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6e6dfeb0912221211r18e40839lcfc33711d00258a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B3136CB.5030505@redhat.com>

> There might be some documentation from the K12LTSP group, but I don't
> think there is any Fedora documentation on the matter. You may want to
> talk to the guys working on LTSP I am sure they would love for us to
> pick up the documentation.

https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12ltsp-list

--Mel



From bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com  Tue Dec 22 21:25:22 2009
From: bloggersciencewithjoe at gmail.com (Joseph Allen)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:25:22 -0600
Subject: Self-Introduction:
In-Reply-To: <4B3136CB.5030505@redhat.com>
References: <75a9c3390912191808n5e70c79cr4c652cd725c3710a@mail.gmail.com>
	<fd3eb9bf0912200424g248512b6uf8a1d4b326b8cb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<75a9c3390912200643u76e121b8q213cc8249989a9ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6e6dfeb0912210905w699cada7xffc38134fea685b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<75a9c3390912210928r71b17d6fm889074ce6444de68@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6e6dfeb0912211002v60ecca18y8dc8180af10c8c78@mail.gmail.com>
	<75a9c3390912211145o29bd214dq6c654781d367d418@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6e6dfeb0912221211r18e40839lcfc33711d00258a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B3136CB.5030505@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <75a9c3390912221325j66c10b8fgd890f92ecdd55e88@mail.gmail.com>

Ah thank you. I shall go and ask on the list. I have found some rather old
docs (titled for Fedora 10 (and higher)) that describe installing it on a
Fedora system. Shall try it ASAP. And if anyone is interested in that doc,
link is https://fedorahosted.org/k12linux/wiki/InstallGuide

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Mel Chua <mel at redhat.com> wrote:

> There might be some documentation from the K12LTSP group, but I don't
>> think there is any Fedora documentation on the matter. You may want to
>> talk to the guys working on LTSP I am sure they would love for us to
>> pick up the documentation.
>>
>
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12ltsp-list
>
> --Mel
>
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
JOSEPH ALLEN, C/A, CAP
G.V. 'Sonny' Montgomery Composite Squadron
SER-MS-102
Mississippi Wing Civil Air Patrol
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Tue Dec 22 21:54:21 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 16:54:21 -0500
Subject: Documentation & Translation schedule review
In-Reply-To: <4B310CCD.3040101@redhat.com>
References: <4B22AA1C.6030400@redhat.com> <1260572102.3019.47.camel@Aidan>
	<4B281625.1040609@redhat.com> <1260923073.3157.15.camel@Aidan>
	<4B2ADBC2.1020806@redhat.com>  <4B2FC520.90603@redhat.com>
	<1261491233.4527.30.camel@Aidan>  <4B310CCD.3040101@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1261518861.6664.120.camel@Aidan>

On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 10:15 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:


> What do you mean by "fixing the dependencies?"

"Build fed-rel-notes.rpm for Beta Release" (25) needs to have as a
successor, "Compose Beta Candidate"

Similarly, "Build fedora-release-notes.rpm" (50) needs to be a
predecessor for "Create RC Test Compose (TC)"

> I understood from the beginning that the dates were wrong, but I was 
> looking to you to supply the correct dates.

Absolute dates are meaningless.  What is important is that the RPM get
built BEFORE releng does the compose

> It would help me a lot if you could be extremely specific with what you 
> are needing or expecting from me.  Something like, "John, please take 
> the dates for the release notes from the bottom of the html page I 
> created and replace tasks #__ to #__ on the schedule you created with 
> them.  Have the releases notes start/depend on task #___ from release 
> engineering."

Make the RC test compose a successor to task 50, and the beta compose a
successor to task 50

> I'd like to understand this better. What do you mean by "the 
> dependencies?"  What problem are you trying to solve by seeing these 
> dependencies?

The problem is that the Fedora 12 schedule had Docs building the RPMs
AFTER releng needed them.  I just want us to have an RPM in hand at the
right time.

> To me the dependencies are inherent in the dates you propose.... one 
> task follows another and can't start unless the previous task was 
> completed. As set forth each task with its start and end date, I'm 
> assuming this is being taken into account.

The dates ARE A RESULT OF the dependencies.

> All this focus on the "dependencies" is new to me.  We've done several 
> previous detailed reviews of the docs schedule and you are the first to 
> raise this as such an important issue.  I want to help, but I'm failing 
> to see how to provide you this information or what problem you're trying 
> to solve.

It can't be that new to you -- there are a bazillion of them in
your .tjp file.

> I haven't found an easy way to review and create schedules virtually. In 
> person we could have probably finished all of this in an hour. It is 
> tedious and really not that fun of task.  Sometimes I have to print a 
> schedule off, turn off my computer screen to fully concentrate and walk 
> it through with a calendar nearby.

Hey, there's no easy way to review and create schedules virtually or
otherwise.

> What format would be more helpful for you?

I was hoping that I could take your TaskJuggler file and maybe put it in
that language, but alas, it is just too opaque for me.

> Yes, I'm waiting for you to insert whatever you want the dates to be.

> Please insert/change whatever you think the dates should be.

Dates, dates, dates.  I don't care what the date is, only that it is the
right date relative to releng.

> Thanks for being patient with me.  I really do want to find a better way 
> to do this :)

Well, we have sixty three things going on at once, and I know that
sometimes I'm not the easiest person in the world to understand, so I
certainly appreciate your patience.

I hate to massively hack up your schedule, although I don't think it
actually is a huge hack; just a couple of dependencies and assuming the
other dependencies are in place (and they seem to be although I didn't
go through the tjp line by line), it should be simply adding a couple of
dependencies and let the software do its thing.

--McD





From sparks at fedoraproject.org  Wed Dec 23 03:50:39 2009
From: sparks at fedoraproject.org (Eric "Sparks" Christensen)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:50:39 -0500
Subject: Documentation schedule for F13
Message-ID: <4B31938F.9010508@fedoraproject.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I just got off of a phone conference with other Fedorians where we
discussed the Documentation schedule for F13.  Wish I could say it's
ready for public consumption right now but it is still pretty ugly.  I'm
sure that John (poelcat) will have it out in a few days.

We worked with Noriko on the translator schedule as well.  One of the
bigger changes that will be happening is that we have eliminated the
freezes associated with Alpha and Beta.  It will be a continuous work in
progress.  This has the benefit of allowing the translators to have time
to translate the Release Notes as they are being developed and not
having hundreds (thousands?) of lines of text made available to them
with a short period of time to work.  The same will be done for the
Guides as well.  F13 guide development started the day F12 was released
so the new POT files should be made available to the translators now
(pending the Transifex 0.7 upgrade).

I hope this makes for a smoother process for this release.  We will
continue to tweak the process along the way as well.

- --Eric
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From sparks at fedoraproject.org  Wed Dec 23 13:35:28 2009
From: sparks at fedoraproject.org (Eric "Sparks" Christensen)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:35:28 -0500
Subject: Fedora Docs Meeting Reminder
Message-ID: <4B321CA0.8020402@fedoraproject.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

REMINDER: There will be a Fedora Docs Meeting today at 0001 UTC. The
agenda can be found at:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting


- --Eric
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Thu Dec 24 01:11:08 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 20:11:08 -0500
Subject: Docs Meeting 2009-12-24 IRC log
Message-ID: <1261617068.2333.1.camel@Aidan>


00:00:29 <sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
00:00:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Dec 24 00:00:29 2009 UTC.  The chair is sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
00:00:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
00:00:39 <sparks> #chair jjmcd
00:00:39 <zodbot> Current chairs: jjmcd sparks
00:00:46 <sparks> #topic Roll Call
00:00:47 * sparks 
00:00:59 * jjmcd .
00:01:23 * nb .
00:01:38 <ianweller> oh look, a meeting
00:03:33 <quaid> oi!
00:03:47 <sparks> wow!  quaid is here!
00:03:52 <quaid> :D
00:04:17 <sparks> Okay, let's get started.
00:04:46 <sparks> #topic F13 Docs Schedule
00:05:13 <sparks> So we had a two and a half hour phone conference/Gobby meeting last night...
00:05:37 <sparks> where we got the F13 release schedule hammered out.
00:05:37 <jjmcd> Great fun it was
00:06:00 <sparks> So we made a few changes from previous releases that we need to talk about tonight.
00:06:58 <sparks> The first items is that we aren't going to freeze development of the Release Notes or Guides until the very end
00:07:22 <sparks> So everyone should keep working through the Alpha and Beta freezes
00:07:50 <sparks> Any questions about this or any comments?
00:08:08 <jjmcd> We will be producing pots for L10N on a regular schedule
00:08:08 <ianweller> what reason was there for that?
00:08:20 <sparks> jjmcd: Yeah, that's the next thing.
00:08:30 <sparks> ianweller: for which that?
00:08:33 <jjmcd> All the branches we had to keep track of what L10N had was confusing
00:08:37 <ianweller> 18:06:52 < sparks> The first items is that we aren't going to freeze development of the Release Notes or Guides until the very end
00:08:40 <ianweller> ^ that that
00:08:44 <sparks> :)
00:08:50 <jjmcd> ANd really, we were giving them the MINIMUM amount of time to translate
00:08:50 <sparks> Yeah, it just doesn't make sense.
00:09:02 <ianweller> oic
00:09:04 <jjmcd> This way they get the maximum amount of time
00:09:10 <sparks> yeah
00:09:20 <jjmcd> We had changes we were holding for them that they could have been workin gon
00:10:15 <sparks> The second thing we decided was that we were going to push POT files constantly.
00:10:33 <jjmcd> This way, As soon as we have text it will be available for L10N
00:10:35 <sparks> so nightly we should be pushing updated POT files so the translators aren't just sitting around waiting
00:11:37 <sparks> that means that the guides should be pushing POTs now!  (Except we are still waiting for Transifex 0.7)
00:12:24 <sparks> Anything else on this topic?
00:13:25 <sparks> #topic Sandbox on Fedora People
00:13:33 <sparks> jjmcd: Want to talk about this?
00:13:38 <jjmcd> For Fedora 12, we built release notes each night for L10N.  It turns out I didn't have the quota on fedorapeople.org for 42 languages, so I ended up putting them on is-sixsigma.com where I had some space.
00:13:54 <jjmcd> Having the RNs on an external host doesn't have the cach? of having them on fedoraproject, and it doesn't do anything for guides.
00:14:07 <jjmcd> Ricky agreed to make us a group place where we can put draft documents.
00:14:24 <jjmcd> People in docs will have write access to /srv/groups/docs and that will be accessible via http://fedorapeople.org/groups/docs/
00:14:36 <jjmcd> Just remember that files owned by you in that directory still count against your quota, so let infra know if you need more.
00:15:13 <jjmcd> I think that sums it up
00:15:17 <jjmcd> Any questions?
00:15:41 <jjmcd> This is for drafts.  Finished docs still on docs.fp.o
00:15:57 <sparks> ya
00:17:06 <sparks> Okay, works for me...  We'll publish the path when it is all setup.
00:18:01 <sparks> Okay, moving on
00:18:07 <sparks> #topic Release Notes
00:18:18 <sparks> jjmcd: Anything you want to talk about on this?
00:18:23 <jjmcd> I think we covered the exciting stuff
00:18:32 <sparks> Works for me
00:18:36 <jjmcd> We have a handful of bugs before we push an update
00:18:58 <jjmcd> One thing I should mention
00:19:35 <jjmcd> I am giving serious consideration to doing the F13 notes in html rather than Yelp.  Plenty of time to change so if you want to dissuade me ....
00:20:31 <sparks> Well...  As long as it is easy for the users to find the documents from the GUI...
00:20:45 <jjmcd> html addresses other desktops and I now know how to get the same functionality as yelp
00:20:50 <sparks> I don't have a problem with it.  I'm hoping Yelp 3.x will fix a lot of problems for us.
00:21:06 <jjmcd> IF it addresses KDE, XFCE
00:21:18 <sparks> ya
00:22:16 <jjmcd> On the menu they will be hidden under "Release Notes" instead of "Help"
00:22:44 <sparks> And you can have it automagically select the proper language?
00:22:54 <jjmcd> of Vrigave Informatie nar Hulp
00:23:35 <sparks> I'm going to assume that means yes
00:23:39 <jjmcd> yes
00:23:44 <sparks> :)
00:23:47 <sparks> Make it so
00:23:53 <jjmcd> Not just the doc, but also the menu
00:23:59 <sparks> perfect
00:24:04 <sparks> and it's all in the same SRPM?
00:24:07 <jjmcd> yes
00:24:22 <jjmcd> You didn't read the C, did you?
00:24:43 <jjmcd> I know, C is a write-only language
00:25:09 <sparks> I looked at it briefly but I haven't had a chance to study it
00:25:47 <jjmcd> It really is pretty simple
00:26:12 <jjmcd> The only gotcha is that part of the javascript has to be in <head> rather than <body>
00:26:57 <jjmcd> Strangely, in <body> it works sometimes for some languages
00:27:05 <sparks> Hmmm
00:27:23 <jjmcd> but in <head> it always works
00:27:30 <sparks> well, there you go
00:27:41 <jjmcd> ja
00:28:21 <sparks> Okay... anything else?
00:28:26 <jjmcd> not here
00:28:39 <sparks> Okay.. moving on
00:28:52 <sparks> #topic Status on CMS (Zikula)
00:29:00 <sparks> Anyone have any updates on this?
00:29:39 <sparks> ke4qqq: You around tonight?
00:30:48 <sparks> Okay, maybe he'll be around in a few minutes.
00:31:09 <sparks> #topic Does yum langpack support help us?
00:31:17 <sparks> Do we have anything else on this?
00:32:42 <sparks> I guess not
00:32:51 <sparks> #topic Guide Status
00:33:07 <sparks> Okay, anyone have anything they want to talk about on their Guide projects?
00:34:06 <sparks> I'd like some help writing up a section of the Security Guide describing PolicyKit
00:34:35 <jjmcd> Is that even understandable by mortals?
00:35:22 <sparks> PolicyKit?  I want to make it understandable...
00:35:24 <sparks> if I can understand it
00:35:49 <jjmcd> I just assumed it was as impenetrable as SELinux policies
00:36:16 <sparks> SELinux isn't impenetrable
00:36:21 <sparks> that's a guide for that
00:36:41 <jjmcd> Yeah, and books.  And it makes good sense until you try to understand a policy
00:36:56 <sparks> heh
00:37:23 <jjmcd> I figured "policy" was a code word for too complicated
00:37:49 <sparks> nah
00:38:31 <sparks> anything else?
00:39:29 <sparks> #topic New Guides
00:39:40 <sparks> Anyone have any new guides?
00:40:56 <sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
00:41:58 <sparks> There are quite a few open tickets for Fedora Documentation
00:42:15 <jjmcd> most look to be chapter reviews
00:42:24 <sparks> Yes
00:42:56 <jjmcd> I screwed up by not tracking down notting this week  I hope I don't have to wait for Jan 4
00:42:58 <sparks> There are quite a few customer requests in there too
00:43:10 <sparks> Might have to
00:43:29 <jjmcd> yeah. Just dunno
00:44:13 <sparks> Okay, anything else on this>?
00:45:05 <sparks> #topic Everything else
00:45:14 <sparks> Anyone have anything they want to discuss?
00:45:33 <jjmcd> Do you want a 10 minute tutorial on multilanguage rpm?
00:45:48 <sparks> Now?  If you want to.
00:46:02 <jjmcd> Pretty straightforward if you have the stomach for it
00:46:57 <jjmcd> I don't hear anyone running away screaming
00:47:17 <jjmcd> OK, first, you need a tar.  The tar has your doc in a directory per language
00:47:43 <jjmcd> A lot like you have in Publican, except the "format" directory pulled out
00:47:51 <jjmcd> You need 3 additional files
00:48:11 <jjmcd> At the top level, you have an index.html with some magical javascript
00:48:30 <jjmcd> The javascript includes a list of languages that will be in the rpm
00:48:42 <jjmcd> In head, it grabs the browser's language
00:49:07 <jjmcd> In body, it compares the browser language to the list and launches the doc based on the list
00:49:42 <jjmcd> The one tricky part is the language from the browser might be, for example, bn, bn-IN, or bn_IN
00:49:52 <jjmcd> THe list contains bn-IN
00:50:19 <jjmcd> If there is a hit against bn-IN, use it.  If not, look for bn* and use the value from the list
00:50:31 <jjmcd> The two other files are desktop files, almost the same
00:51:00 <jjmcd> The menu language in the desktop file can be stolen from Article_Info.xml in the appropriate language
00:51:10 <jjmcd> The two desktop files are almost identical
00:51:42 <jjmcd> Now, the rpm install puts the index file in /usr/share/doc/HTML/<document-name>
00:51:50 <sparks> Anyway we can script this?
00:51:58 <jjmcd> And the publican in /usr/share/doc/HTML/<document-name>/<language>
00:52:06 <jjmcd> Yes, that is what the C program does
00:52:24 <jjmcd> You simply give it a publican directory and get an RPM
00:52:42 <sparks> cool
00:52:48 <sparks> You going to package it?
00:52:52 <jjmcd> The desktop files go in /usr/share/applications and /usr/share/applications/kde4
00:53:03 <jjmcd> I wasn't planning on it, but I suppose I could
00:53:20 <jjmcd> There is a pdf in there that has a gory description of the program
00:54:05 <jjmcd> I have 2 tars on my fedorapeople, one for the app and doc and another for the source
00:54:15 <sparks> cool
00:54:42 <jjmcd> I called it buildrpm.  If I was going to package it I would rename it to something less generic
00:54:59 <sparks> ya
00:54:59 <jjmcd> like package-fedora-doc or something
00:55:32 <jjmcd> But if you build a guide in a few languages, you should be able to run it
00:55:39 <jjmcd> then install the rpm and try it out
00:55:52 <jjmcd> It packages what html
00:55:54 <jjmcd> s
00:55:58 <jjmcd> you have built
00:56:11 <jjmcd> so you can package any arbitrary collection of languages
00:56:38 <sparks> Cool
00:56:45 <jjmcd> It looks to find tmp/<lang>/html/index.html
00:57:13 <jjmcd> We should get David to review the spec it makes
00:57:33 <sparks> Yeah...  That would be good
00:57:45 <jjmcd> In = publican directory plus a short config file, out=SRPM, RPM, spec
00:58:33 <sparks> Sounds good to me!
00:58:51 <jjmcd> read the pdf, altho it is kinda boring
00:59:39 <sparks> Okay...  anything else?
00:59:39 <jjmcd> It does have pictures, tho
00:59:43 <jjmcd> nope
00:59:44 <sparks> Pictures?
00:59:46 <sparks> Cool
01:00:08 <sparks> Okay, anyone else?
01:00:10 <jjmcd> dot pictures, but pictures
01:00:53 <sparks> Does anyone have anything else they want to talk about?
01:01:19 <jjmcd> we put them to sleep
01:01:27 <sparks> I think so
01:01:38 <sparks> Okay, thanks for everyone coming!
01:01:41 <sparks> #endmeeting




From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Thu Dec 24 01:12:56 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 20:12:56 -0500
Subject: Docs Meeting 2009-12-24 Summary
Message-ID: <1261617176.2333.3.camel@Aidan>

===================================================================================================
#fedora-meeting: Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
===================================================================================================


Meeting started by sparks at 00:00:29 UTC. The full logs are available
at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2009-12-24/fedora-meeting.2009-12-24-00.00.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---------------
* Roll Call  (sparks, 00:00:46)

* F13 Docs Schedule  (sparks, 00:04:46)

* Sandbox on Fedora People  (sparks, 00:13:25)

* Release Notes  (sparks, 00:18:07)

* Status on CMS (Zikula)  (sparks, 00:28:52)

* Does yum langpack support help us?  (sparks, 00:31:09)

* Guide Status  (sparks, 00:32:51)

* New Guides  (sparks, 00:39:29)

* Outstanding BZ Tickets  (sparks, 00:40:56)

* Everything else  (sparks, 00:45:05)

Meeting ended at 01:01:41 UTC.




Action Items
------------





Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* sparks (88)
* jjmcd (82)
* ianweller (5)
* zodbot (3)
* quaid (2)
* nb (1)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot




From dhillonv10 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 27 20:33:50 2009
From: dhillonv10 at gmail.com (Vikram Dhillon)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 15:33:50 -0500
Subject: new member introduction
Message-ID: <ea6602020912271233l46c8fadapcad0677a42c95e6b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
         How are you guys doing? I have been writing documentation for
various project: Firefox, GNOME, KDE, FreeBSD and others, and I would
like to get started with writing documentation for fedora. How can I
get started here. Thanks for the help in getting me started :D

Regards,
Vikram Dhillon

~~~
There are lots of Linux users who don't care how the kernel works, but
only want to use it. That is a tribute to how good Linux is.
-- Linus Torvalds



From poelstra at redhat.com  Tue Dec 29 16:46:13 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:46:13 -0800
Subject: Updated Fedora 13 Schedules
Message-ID: <4B3A3255.4090901@redhat.com>

I have updated the schedules based on our meeting on 2009-12-22.  Let me 
know if there are any parts of it that still need to be adjusted by 
telling me the task number and schedule you are referring to.

I created the regular version and a slimmed down version that removes 
some of the sub-headings and phase information.  Please tell me if you 
would prefer this to be the default format going forward.


-= Documentation =-
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-docs-tasks.html
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-docs-tasks-flat.html

-= Translation =-
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-trans-tasks.html
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-trans-tasks-flat.html

-= Combined =-
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-docs-and-trans-tasks.html