From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jan 1 00:00:31 2009 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:00:31 -0800 Subject: RFC: Docs Project page renaming Message-ID: <20090101000031.GR24919@calliope.phig.org> Attached is the finished version of the file that directs 'wikibot' in renaming and relinking the pages under wiki/DocsProject. The file also shows which categories the pages need to be included in, one or more categories per page. The format is: #Format: OldName|New_Name|Category,Category Two I opted to use '_' for all space instances to remove ambiguity. I also used 'Archive:' for the new name if the page is to be archived. The archiving step should just append 'Archive:' to the front of the old name, e.g.: DocProject/Foo/Page/Nested/So/Deep|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives .. should rename the page to 'Archive:DocProject/Foo/Page/Nested/So/Deep' and put it in the Category:Docs_Project_archives. I generally like the names I chose, and we can always rename later. If you have any better suggestions, make them here so we can discuss. Let's just be careful to not overly plan the bikeshed color, eh? - Karsten -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- #Format: Old Name|New Name|Category,Category Two #Please keep in Alphabetical Order DocsProject|Docs_Project|Docs_Project DocsProject/AdmonitionIconComparison|Archive:DocsProject/AdmonitionIconComparison|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Alexandria|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/BrowserStartPage|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/CVSAccess|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Calendar|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/CompleteReference|Archive:|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Contributors|Docs_Project_contributors|Docs_Project DocsProject/CvsBranching|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/CvsHelp|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/CvsTagging|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/CvsUsage|Docs_Project_CVS_usage|Docs_Project DocsProject/DocIdeas|Ideas_for_documentation| DocsProject/DocumentationGuide|Archive:|Documentation_Guide DocsProject/DocumentationGuide/BugzillaTutorial|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/DocumentationGuide/ExampleTutorial|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/DocumentationGuide/StyleToDo|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Drafts|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/EditorAssignments|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Editors|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/FUDConBoston2007/Hackfest|Docs_Project_FUDCon_Boston_2007_hackfest|Docs_Project DocsProject/FUDConBoston2007/Hackfest/Whiteboard|Docs_Project_FUDCon_Boston_2007_hackfest_whiteboard|Docs_Project DocsProject/FUDConBoston2007/Session|Docs_Project_FUDCon_Boston_2007|Docs_Project DocsProject/FixingBugs|Handling_documentation_bugs|Docs_Project DocsProject/Goals|Docs_Project_goals|Docs_Project DocsProject/Handbook|Fedora_Handbook|Draft_Documentation DocsProject/Header|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/HighlightedForDocs|How_to_submit_content_to_the_Docs_Project|Docs_Project DocsProject/HowToReview|How_to_review_documentation|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/IRCNotes|IRC_channel_for_Docs_Project|Docs_Project DocsProject/Jargons|Archive:|Docs_Project_archive DocsProject/Join|Joining_the_Docs_Project|Docs_Project DocsProject/Join/CheckList|Joining_the_Docs_Project_checklist|Docs_Project DocsProject/Licensing/Discussion|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Licensing/FAQ|Docs_Project_licensing_FAQ|Docs_Project DocsProject/Licensing/Schedule|Archive:|Docs_Project_archive DocsProject/Licensing/StepsToOPL|Archive:|Docs_Project_archive DocsProject/Magazine|Archive:|Docs_Project_archive DocsProject/Meeting_20080709_Seneca_technical_communications_collaboration|Docs_Project_meeting_Seneca_technical_communications_collaboration_20080709|Docs_Project_meetings DocsProject/Mission|Docs_Project_mission|Docs_Project 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DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/QAProcess|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/TrackingPage|Release_notes_bug_trackers|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Reorganization|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Roles|Roles_in_the_Docs_Project|Docs_Project DocsProject/Roles/LeadWriter|Archive:|Docs_Project_archive DocsProject/SOP/Release|Docs_Project_release_SOP|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Schedule|Docs_Project_schedule|Docs_Project DocsProject/Schedule/7|Docs_Project_schedule_F7|Docs_Project DocsProject/Schedule/8|Docs_Project_schedule_F8|Docs_Project DocsProject/Schedule/9|Docs_Project_schedule_F9|Docs_Project DocsProject/SelfIntroduction|Introduce_yourself_to_the_Docs_Project|Docs_Project DocsProject/Seneca_College_tech_communications_class_plan_2008-2009|Seneca_College_tech_communications_class_plan_2008-2009|Docs_Project DocsProject/SingleSourceSummary|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/SteeringCommittee|Docs_Project_Steering_Committee|Docs_Project 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DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080129|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080129|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080205|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080205|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080214|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080214|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080220|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080220|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080227|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080227|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080305|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080305|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080312|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080312|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080326|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080326|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080423|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080423|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080430|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080430|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080514|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080514|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080521|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080521|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080528|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080528|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080604|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080604|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080716|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080716|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080723|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080723|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080730|Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080730|Docs_Project_meeting_logs DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/Summary20070110|Meeting:Docs_summary_20070110|Docs_Project_meetings DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Scheduler|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Nominations|Docs_Project_Steering_Committee_nominations|Docs_Project DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/ProcessDocs|Docs_Project_Steering_Committee_process|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/ProcessDocs/CvsUsage|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/StyleGuide|Docs_Project_Style_Guide|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/CommonMistakes|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Common_Mistakes|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/ContentAndRendering|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Content_and_Rendering|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/DatesAndTimes|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Dates_and_Times|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/FedoraSpecific|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Fedora_Specific|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/FullGuide|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/StyleGuide/GeneralGuidelines|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_General_Guidelines|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/IntroductionToStyle|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Introduction_to_Style|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/QuickReference|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Quick_Reference|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/Resources|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Resources|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/Tasks/Bugzilla|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Tasks/Completed|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Tasks/FeatureWriter|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Tasks/ProjectManagement|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Tasks/README|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Tasks/RPMGuide|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Tasks/ReleaseNotes|Release_notes_tasks|Docs_Project,Docs_Project_tasks DocsProject/Tasks/SELinuxDocs|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Tasks/SIGSupport|Writers_embedded_in_SIGs|Docs_Project DocsProject/Tasks/SingleSourceSummary|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Tasks/SpinGuide|Spin_Guide_tasks|Spin_Guide,Docs_Project_tasks DocsProject/Tasks/ThisPageName/TaskName|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Tasks/UserGuide|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Tasks_(draft)|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/Tools|Tools_used_by_the_Docs_Project|Docs_Project DocsProject/Tools/PDFconversion|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/TrackingPage|Docs_Project_tracking_page|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Translation|Translating_documentation|Docs_Project,Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Translation/Statistics|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/UsefulScripts|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/UsefulScripts/PackageList|Archive:|Docs_Project_tools DocsProject/WhatToDocument|What_to_document_for_Fedora|Docs_Project DocsProject/WhyJoin|Why_join_the_Docs_Project DocsProject/Wiki2XML|Converting_wiki_to_DocBook_XML|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Wiki2XML/ReleaseNotes|Release_notes_wiki_to_XML_conversion_process|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/WikiGardening|Wiki_gardening|Docs_Project,Wiki_gardening DocsProject/WorkFlow|Docs_Project_workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas|Improving_the_Docs_Project_workflow|Docs_Project_process,Improving_the_Docs_Project_workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas/AdvancingtheProject|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow_-_Advancing_the_Project_and_Community|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas/AnotherView|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow_-_Appendix_D:_Another_view|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas/Components|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow_-_Appendix_C:_Components_of_the_FOSS_Docs_Toolchain|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas/DocWorkflowCycle|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow_-_Appendix_A:_The_Documentation_Workflow_Cycle|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas/GNOMETools|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow_-_GNOME_Tools|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas/InnovativeApproaches|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow_-_Innovative_Approaches|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas/JavaETools|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow_-_Java_Tools|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas/KDETools|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow_-_KDE_Tools|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas/PrintView||Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas/References|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow_-_References|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas/TypesKnowledge|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow_-_Appendix_B:_Types_of_Knowledge_Contributions_to_a_FOSS_Project|Improving_the_Docs_Project_Workflow DocsProject/Writers|Archive:|Docs_Project_archives DocsProject/WritingDraftDocs|How_to_write_draft_documentation|Docs_Project,Documentation,How_to DocsProject/Writing_Using_The_Wiki|Writing_for_DocBook_using_the_wiki|Docs_Project,Documentation -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eric at christensenplace.us Thu Jan 1 15:24:28 2009 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 10:24:28 -0500 Subject: Problem with XML Message-ID: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Yesterday on the train, I converted part of the "Using GPG" portion of the Security Guide. I get an error when I try to "make" the book now. The error is: junk after document element at line 11, column 0, byte 739:
^ Creating GPG Keys in GNOME at /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.10.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/XML/Parser.pm line 187 make: *** [xml-en-US] Error 4 I've compared the file to other files that I have and I can't see any differences. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks, Eric Christensen E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org GPG Key: BD0C14C1 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklc4CkACgkQfQTSQL0MFME9DACgi4e0+tilap7jwCBAF60Oq2Sv qcQAoNFpKTfM+P2BuCnpXvJMXjwGSh2p =Ip0i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From danielsmw at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 17:18:19 2009 From: danielsmw at gmail.com (Matthew Daniels) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:18:19 -0500 Subject: Maintenance/Brevity vs. Explicit Instructions Message-ID: The other day I noticed someone mention in #fedora-docs how much of a maintenance nightmare it is to have the same user instructions replicated over multiple places. In the process of editing the UG, I've been thinking; is there a good reason that this happens, or is it just because of the way docs get tangled up over time? For example, the User Guide has multiple places where the user is instructed to install new software. I understand that there is some value in repeating the instructions every time this happens, but is it worth the nightmare is causes with maintenance and uniformity? Would it not be better to simply keep the canon set of instructions in one place (like User Guide - Managing Software) and consistently refer the user to these instructions? Just curious for everyone's opinion on this. Kinda wanted to bounce it around before I change everything. -Matthew From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jan 1 18:00:53 2009 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 10:00:53 -0800 Subject: Problem with XML In-Reply-To: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us> References: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us> Message-ID: <20090101180053.GS24919@calliope.phig.org> On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 10:24:28AM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote: >
id="sect-Security_Guide-Encryption-Using_GPG-Creating_GPG_Keys_in_GNOME"> > ^ There could be an invisible (to the eye) character. You might also try forcing it to be one line, although that shouldn't be a problem. But it might be interpreting an invisible character in there, and making it all one line and re-inserting spaces. - Karsten -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jan 1 19:19:03 2009 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 11:19:03 -0800 Subject: process docs overview Message-ID: <20090101191903.GU24919@calliope.phig.org> In doing all the page renaming setup, I included a number of pages in Category:Docs_Project_process. The end result is (currently) 28 pages that contain various parts of our process. My next thought with this list is to organize it a bit in to different types of process, look for redundant content, and see about organizing a single page (Docs_Project_workflow?) as having links out to each of the process pages. Take a look at these various process pages and see if you see: * Anything missing? ** Anything needs to go away? * Good ideas on organizing * Categories these could be further sub-divided in to Cheers - Karsten DocsProject/FixingBugs|Handling_documentation_bugs|Docs_Project,Docs_Project_process DocsProject/HighlightedForDocs|How_to_submit_content_to_the_Docs_Project|Docs_Project,Docs_Project_process DocsProject/HowToReview|How_to_review_documentation|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Join|Joining_the_Docs_Project|Docs_Project,Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Join/CheckList|Joining_the_Docs_Project_checklist|Docs_Project,Docs_Project_process DocsProject/PackageBuild|Building_packages_for_Docs_Project|Documentation_Guide,Docs_Project_process DocsProject/PackagePrep|Preparing_packages_for_Docs_Project|Documentation_Guide,Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Policy/FDSCoElections|Docs_Project_Steering_Committee_elections_process|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Process|Release_notes_process|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/TrackingPage|Release_notes_bug_trackers|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/SOP/Release|Docs_Project_release_SOP|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Schedule|Docs_Project_schedule|Docs_Project,Docs_Project_process DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/ProcessDocs|Docs_Project_Steering_Committee_process|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/StyleGuide|Docs_Project_Style_Guide|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/CommonMistakes|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Common_Mistakes|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/ContentAndRendering|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Content_and_Rendering|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/DatesAndTimes|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Dates_and_Times|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/FedoraSpecific|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Fedora_Specific|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/GeneralGuidelines|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_General_Guidelines|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/IntroductionToStyle|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Introduction_to_Style|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/QuickReference|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Quick_Reference|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/StyleGuide/Resources|Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_Resources|Docs_Project_process,Documentation DocsProject/TrackingPage|Docs_Project_tracking_page|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Translation|Translating_documentation|Docs_Project,Docs_Project_process DocsProject/WhatToDocument|What_to_document_for_Fedora|Docs_Project,Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Wiki2XML|Converting_wiki_to_DocBook_XML|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/Wiki2XML/ReleaseNotes|Release_notes_wiki_to_XML_conversion_process|Docs_Project_process DocsProject/WorkFlowIdeas|Improving_the_Docs_Project_workflow|Docs_Project_process,Improving_the_Docs_Project_workflow -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 21:09:11 2009 From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason Taylor) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:09:11 -0500 Subject: Problem with XML In-Reply-To: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us> References: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us> Message-ID: <1230844151.3419.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-01-01 at 10:24 -0500, Eric Christensen wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Yesterday on the train, I converted part of the "Using GPG" portion of > the Security Guide. I get an error when I try to "make" the book now. > > The error is: > > junk after document element at line 11, column 0, byte 739: > >
>
id="sect-Security_Guide-Encryption-Using_GPG-Creating_GPG_Keys_in_GNOME"> > ^ > Creating GPG Keys in GNOME > > at > /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.10.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/XML/Parser.pm > line 187 > make: *** [xml-en-US] Error 4 > > > I've compared the file to other files that I have and I can't see any > differences. Does anyone have any ideas? > > > Thanks, > Eric Christensen > E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org > GPG Key: BD0C14C1 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAklc4CkACgkQfQTSQL0MFME9DACgi4e0+tilap7jwCBAF60Oq2Sv > qcQAoNFpKTfM+P2BuCnpXvJMXjwGSh2p > =Ip0i > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > Sorry it took a while to reply. Attached is my patch, it shouts about the 
 tag being possibly broken but completes and builds clean on my
box.

-Jason
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Jan  1 21:37:37 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:37:37 -0800
Subject: functional areas of Docs Project
Message-ID: <20090101213737.GA4289@calliope.phig.org>

Thinking about our various processes, it seems a good idea to put them
in functional areas.  A process might be used in one or multiple parts
of the project.  For example, a process for requesting access to a
document on fedorahosted.org is used in many functional areas, such as
recruiting, training, writing, editing, and publishing.

How does this list of functional areas look:

* Recruit
* Train
* Gather information
* Write
* Edit
* Publish
* Steer/govern
* Project manage

... what is missing?

My thought from here is to:

1. Leave each process page in a master
   [[Category:Docs Project process]], which happens after wikibot runs
   from our docsproject.psv choices.

2. Add each process page to one or more sub-categories, for example
   [[Category:Docs Project recruiting process]].  The pattern of "Docs
   Project something process" is pretty clean and clear.  This avoids
   obscuring acronyms, e.g. SOP for 'standard operating procedure'.

We'll want a master page for each functional area, and it links to
each of the other pages used in that process that also happen to be in
the same sub-category.  The sub-category page is a nice way to see all
pages in a process.

This is my thinking so far in how to improve our processes, clean-up
the content, and use a MediaWiki-smart approach.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 00:38:34 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 19:38:34 -0500
Subject: Problem with XML
In-Reply-To: <1230844151.3419.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us>
	<1230844151.3419.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090102003834.GA15517@localhost.localdomain>

Hi Jason and Eric,

On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 04:09:11PM -0500, Jason Taylor wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-01-01 at 10:24 -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > Yesterday on the train, I converted part of the "Using GPG" portion of
> > the Security Guide.  I get an error when I try to "make" the book now.
> > 
> > The error is:
> > 
> > junk after document element at line 11, column 0, byte 739:
> >   
> >
> >
> id="sect-Security_Guide-Encryption-Using_GPG-Creating_GPG_Keys_in_GNOME"> > > ^ > > Creating GPG Keys in GNOME > > > > at > > /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.10.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/XML/Parser.pm > > line 187 > > make: *** [xml-en-US] Error 4 > > > > > > I've compared the file to other files that I have and I can't see any > > differences. Does anyone have any ideas? Could this be a size limit to the @id attribute? I don't think these values are supposed to exceed 64 characters, and even that seems extraordinarily long so I'd recommend shortening this to see what happens. > Sorry it took a while to reply. Attached is my patch, it shouts about > the 
 tag being possibly broken but completes and builds clean on my
> box.
> 
> -Jason

Some comments below...

> Index: en-US/Using_GPG.wiki
> ===================================================================
> --- en-US/Using_GPG.wiki	(revision 18)
> +++ en-US/Using_GPG.wiki	(working copy)
> @@ -2,14 +2,17 @@
>    ]>
>  
> +
> +Encryption Using GPG
> +
>  

>    Using GNU Privacy Guard (GnuPG)
>    
>      GPG is used to identify yourself and authenticate your communications, including those with people you don't know. GPG allows anyone reading a GPG-signed email to verify its authenticity.  In other words, GPG allows someone to be reasonably certain that communications signed by you actually are from you.  GPG is useful because it helps prevent third parties from altering code or intercepting conversations and altering the message.
>    
>  

> -

> -  Creating GPG Keys in GNOME
> +

> + Creating GPG Keys in GNOME

I note this brings the character count for the @id attribute below
64... hm.

>    
>      Install the Seahorse utility, which makes GPG key management easier.  From the main menu, select System > Administration > Add/Remove Software and wait for PackageKit to start.  Enter Seahorse into the text box and select the Find.  Select the checkbox next to the ''seahorse'' package and select ''Apply'' to add the software.  You can also install '''Seahorse''' at the command line with the command su -c "yum install seahorse".
>    
> @@ -105,17 +108,16 @@
>    
>      Finally, gpg generates random data to make your key as unique as possible.  Move your mouse, type random keys, or perform other tasks on the system during this step to speed up the process.  Once this step is finished, your keys are complete and ready to use:
>  
> -pub  1024D/1B2AFA1C 2005-03-31 John Q. Doe (Fedora Docs Project) 
> +pub  1024D/1B2AFA1C 2005-03-31 John Q. Doe (Fedora Docs Project) jqdoe at example.com

You shouldn't eliminate the < and > characters as such, because that's
what the user will see.  In a parsed area like this you must represent
them with < and > to avoid them being interpreted as delimiters
for an element tag.

I'd also recommend substituting something more appropriate than 
here, like this:

content line 1
content line 2
content line 3


-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 00:44:48 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 19:44:48 -0500
Subject: Maintenance/Brevity vs. Explicit Instructions
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20090102004448.GB15517@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 12:18:19PM -0500, Matthew Daniels wrote:
> The other day I noticed someone mention in #fedora-docs how much of a  
> maintenance nightmare it is to have the same user instructions  
> replicated over multiple places.  In the process of editing the UG, I've 
> been thinking; is there a good reason that this happens, or is it just 
> because of the way docs get tangled up over time?
>
> For example, the User Guide has multiple places where the user is  
> instructed to install new software.  I understand that there is some  
> value in repeating the instructions every time this happens, but is it  
> worth the nightmare is causes with maintenance and uniformity?  Would it 
> not be better to simply keep the canon set of instructions in one place 
> (like User Guide - Managing Software) and consistently refer the user to 
> these instructions?
>
> Just curious for everyone's opinion on this.  Kinda wanted to bounce it 
> around before I change everything.

I think I left a spurious comment like that in the channel, but I was
referring specifically to the many repetitive pages I found concerning
our process, workflow, instructions, and so forth.  In the course of
trying to make sure we don't leak knowledge, I'm sure we've
inadvertently created many repetitive pages on the wiki.  Those pages
might then confuse new folks trying to figure out which directions are
canonical.

If the instructions in question are fairly short, the value in cross
reference is low.  Making the user break out of the continuity of a
document to go to another page should only be done if the instructions
are quite substantial and otherwise not really on-topic.  An
instruction like the one-line explanation "Install the XYZ package
using the following command:  su -c 'yum install XYZ'" would not be
worth cross-referencing.  A detour into creating a Fedora account, on
the other hand, contains numerous steps and is much better left to a
cross-reference, I'd think.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 01:17:53 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:17:53 +1000
Subject: Problem with XML
In-Reply-To: <20090102003834.GA15517@localhost.localdomain>
References: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us>
	<1230844151.3419.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090102003834.GA15517@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901011717g5e6f01eei289baa54834deddc@mail.gmail.com>

> content line 1
> content line 2
> content line 3

Be careful when using multiple lines. If you use 
inside screen, you may find

1
2
3

is displayed as "1 2 3" in HTML.

Cheers.



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 01:19:16 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:19:16 +1000
Subject: Problem with XML
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0901011717g5e6f01eei289baa54834deddc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us>
	<1230844151.3419.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090102003834.GA15517@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901011717g5e6f01eei289baa54834deddc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901011719j1e368dddu7c2e1597c9a6db6a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Murray McAllister
 wrote:
>> content line 1
>> content line 2
>> content line 3
>
> Be careful when using multiple lines. If you use 
> inside screen, you may find
>
> 1
> 2
> 3
>
> is displayed as "1 2 3" in HTML.
>
> Cheers.
>

Actually, I believe this only happens if you use




From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 01:26:18 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:26:18 +1000
Subject: Problem with XML
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0901011719j1e368dddu7c2e1597c9a6db6a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us>
	<1230844151.3419.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090102003834.GA15517@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901011717g5e6f01eei289baa54834deddc@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0901011719j1e368dddu7c2e1597c9a6db6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901011726q7e5c8778je96208acf9906235@mail.gmail.com>

Last reply, I promise ;)

If you build with Publican, the "1.2. Pull-quote Conventions" section
displays how output looks. As far as I know the examples use
, so examples in your books will differ.

Is there any need to fill  tags up with more tags?



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 01:28:38 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:28:38 -0500
Subject: Problem with XML
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0901011717g5e6f01eei289baa54834deddc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us>
	<1230844151.3419.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090102003834.GA15517@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901011717g5e6f01eei289baa54834deddc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090102012838.GH15517@localhost.localdomain>

B1;1704;0cOn Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 11:17:53AM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> > content line 1
> > content line 2
> > content line 3
> 
> Be careful when using multiple lines. If you use 
> inside screen, you may find
> 
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 
> is displayed as "1 2 3" in HTML.

Is that also true when using CDATA sections?  I usually do:



-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 02:17:22 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 12:17:22 +1000
Subject: Problem with XML
In-Reply-To: <20090102012838.GH15517@localhost.localdomain>
References: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us>
	<1230844151.3419.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090102003834.GA15517@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901011717g5e6f01eei289baa54834deddc@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090102012838.GH15517@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901011817p68e41dedtd66035099070d020@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Paul W. Frields  wrote:
> B1;1704;0cOn Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 11:17:53AM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
>> > content line 1
>> > content line 2
>> > content line 3
>>
>> Be careful when using multiple lines. If you use 
>> inside screen, you may find
>>
>> 1
>> 2
>> 3
>>
>> is displayed as "1 2 3" in HTML.
>
> Is that also true when using CDATA sections?  I usually do:
>
>  foo
> bar]]>

CDATA is fine. Just don't let jfearn see you using it ;-)

If you want to include XML examples, I would place the example as a
text file in in en_US/extras/, then:





I think you need to use an extension other than ".xml", otherwise it is parsed?



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 02:21:48 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 12:21:48 +1000
Subject: Problem with XML
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0901011817p68e41dedtd66035099070d020@mail.gmail.com>
References: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us>
	<1230844151.3419.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090102003834.GA15517@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901011717g5e6f01eei289baa54834deddc@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090102012838.GH15517@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901011817p68e41dedtd66035099070d020@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901011821n1919c443n140b504460ca83a1@mail.gmail.com>

> 

That should be:





From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 13:08:31 2009
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason Taylor)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 08:08:31 -0500
Subject: Problem with XML
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0901011821n1919c443n140b504460ca83a1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us>
	<1230844151.3419.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090102003834.GA15517@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901011717g5e6f01eei289baa54834deddc@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090102012838.GH15517@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901011817p68e41dedtd66035099070d020@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0901011821n1919c443n140b504460ca83a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23b1fe6e0901020508l63d913cfkec9d9d575932852b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Murray McAllister
 wrote:
>> 
>
> That should be:
>
>  xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>

Thanks for the pointers!

-Jason



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 16:15:16 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:15:16 -0500
Subject: Problem with XML
In-Reply-To: <23b1fe6e0901020508l63d913cfkec9d9d575932852b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <495CE02C.5090703@christensenplace.us>
	<1230844151.3419.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090102003834.GA15517@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901011717g5e6f01eei289baa54834deddc@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090102012838.GH15517@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901011817p68e41dedtd66035099070d020@mail.gmail.com>
	<95f1114b0901011821n1919c443n140b504460ca83a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<23b1fe6e0901020508l63d913cfkec9d9d575932852b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090102161516.GD6883@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 08:08:31AM -0500, Jason Taylor wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Murray McAllister
>  wrote:
> >> 
> >
> > That should be:
> >
> >  > xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">
> >
> 
> Thanks for the pointers!

Ooo, me likey!

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Sat Jan  3 04:20:01 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 14:20:01 +1000
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide: edit of General_Principles.xml
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901022020n3fe734b5icd4792d9e3b78c71@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I found some motivation this morning, so I tried to review
"...community/fc11/en-US/General_Principles.xml".

If it looks okay, it would be great if a security person (I made minor
additions) and a writer person could check it for accuracy.


----

--- community/fc11/en-US/General_Principles.xml	2009-01-03
13:44:01.000000000 +1000
+++ new/community/fc11/en-US/General_Principles.xml	2009-01-03
13:42:09.000000000 +1000
@@ -5,88 +5,70 @@
 
 	General Principles of Information Security
 	
-		The United States' National Security
Agency (NSA) provides hardening guides and hardening tips for
many different operating systems to help government agencies,
businesses, and individuals help secure their system against attacks.
In addition to specific settings to change, a set of general
principles have been developed to give you a high level view of
information security.
+		The following general principals provide an overview of good
security practices:
 	
-	

-		General Principles
-		  
-		    
-		      
-			Encrypt all data transmitted over the network. Encrypting
authentication information (such as passwords) is particularly
important.
-		      
-		    
-		    
-		      
-			Minimize the amount of software installed and running in order to
minimize vulnerability.
-		      
-		    
-		    
-		      		
-			Use security-enhancing software and tools whenever available (e.g.
SELinux and IPTables).
-		      
-		    
-		    
-		      
-			Run each network service on a separate server whenever possible.
This minimizes the risk that a compromise of one service could lead to
a compromise of others.
-		      
-		    
-		    
-		      
-			Maintain user accounts. Create a good password policy and enforce
its use. Delete unused user accounts.
-		      
-		    
-		    
-		      
-			Review system and application logs on a routine basis. Send logs
to a dedicated log server. This prevents intruders from easily
avoiding detection by modifying the local logs.
-		      
-		    
-		    
-		      
-			Never login directly as root, unless absolutely necessary.
Administrators should use sudo to execute commands as root when
required. The accounts capable of using sudo are specified in
/etc/sudoers, which is edited with the visudo utility. By default,
relavent logs are written to /var/log/secure.
-		      
-		    
-		  
-		

+	
+		
+			
+				encrypt all data transmitted over networks to help prevent
man-in-the-middle attacks and eavesdropping. It is important to
encrypt authentication information, such as passwords.
+			
+		
+		
+			
+				minimize the amount of software installed and running services.
+			
+		
+		
+			
+				use security-enhancing software and tools, for example,
Security-Enhanced Linux (SELinux) for Mandatory Access Control (MAC),
Netfilter iptables for packet filtering (firewall), and the GNU
Privacy Guard (GnuPG) for encrypting documents.
+			
+		
+		
+			
+				if possible, run each network service on a separate system to
minimize the risk of one compromised service being used to compromise
other services.
+			
+		
+		
+			
+				maintain user accounts: create and enforce a strong password
policy; delete unused user accounts.
+			
+		
+		
+			
+				routinely review system and application logs. By default,
security-relevant system logs are written to
/var/log/secure and
/var/log/audit/audit.log. Note: sending logs to a
dedicated log server helps prevent attackers from easily modifying
local logs to avoid detection.
+			
+		
+		
+			
+				never log in as the root user unless absolutely necessary. It is
recommended that administrators use sudo to execute
commands as root when required. Users capable of running
sudo are specified in
/etc/sudoers. Use the visudo
utility to edit /etc/sudoers.
+			
+		
+	
 		

 		Tips, Guides, and Tools
 		
-			Most of the above tips are very basic. Depending on your knowledge
of Linux and how comfortable you are with modifying your system, some
changes could be made to help make your installation more secure. As
mentioned above, the NSA has hardening guides and tips for securing
Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5. Likewise, the Defense Information Systems Agency
(DISA) has an Information Assurance Support
Environment in which they publish checklists and tests for
verifying the security of your system. The documents from the NSA are
a good read for anyone familiar with Linux while the information from
DISA is extremely specific and advanced knowledge of Unix/Linux would
be a great benefit. Links to these documents are listed below. We will
try to pull some of the larger items out of these documents and
explain how to implement them in Fedora and why they are important. In
addition to documentation, DISA has made available SRR scripts that
allow an administrator to check specific settings on a system quickly.
The SRR scripts will provide an XML-formatted report listing any known
vulnerable settings that you have on your system.
+			The United States' National
Security Agency (NSA) provides hardening guides and tips for
many different operating systems, to help government agencies,
businesses, and individuals secure their systems against attack. The
following guides (in PDF format) provide guidance for Red Hat
Enterprise Linux 5:
 		
-		

-		

-		NSA Documents
 		
-		  
-		    
-		      Hardening
Tips for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 (PDF)
-		    
-		  
-		  
-		    		
-		      Guide
to the Secure Configuration of Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5
(PDF)
-		    
-		  
+			
+				
+					Hardening
Tips for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5
+				
+			
+			
+				
+					Guide
to the Secure Configuration of Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5
+				
+			
 		
-		

-		

-		DISA IASE Documents
-		
-		  
-		    
-		      Security
Technical Implementation Guides (STIG) Scroll down to the Unix
STIG
-		    
-		  
-		  
-		    
-		      Security
Checklists Scroll down to the Unix Security Checklists
-		    
-		  
-		  
-		    
-		      Unix Security
Readiness Review Evaluation Script
-		    
-		  
-		
-		

-	      
-
+		
+			The Defense Information Systems
Agency (DISA) provides documentation, checklists, and tests to
help secure your system (Information Assurance Support
Environment). The UNIX SECURITY
TECHNICAL IMPLEMENTATION GUIDE (PDF) is a very specific guide
to UNIX security - an advanced knowledge of UNIX and Linux is
recommended before reading this guide.
+		
+		
+			The DISA UNIX
Security Checklist Version 5, Release 1.15 provides a
collection of documents and checklists, ranging from the correct
ownerships and modes for system files, to patch control.
+		
+		
+			Also, DISA has made available UNIX SPR
scripts that allow administrators to check specific settings
on systems. These scripts provide XML-formatted reports listing any
known vulnerable settings.
+		
+	

+
\ No newline at end of file

----

The link for "Hardening Tips for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5" does
not work after accepting the license agreement. I have mailed
.

Cheers.



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Sat Jan  3 04:29:55 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 14:29:55 +1000
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide: edit of General_Principles.xml
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0901022020n3fe734b5icd4792d9e3b78c71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95f1114b0901022020n3fe734b5icd4792d9e3b78c71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901022029s29abea16h75e87c93160ee001@mail.gmail.com>

I did not test how this would send, sorry. Use:

wget http://mdious.fedorapeople.org/patches/General_Principles.xml.patch



From stickster at gmail.com  Sat Jan  3 22:42:07 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 17:42:07 -0500
Subject: rpm-info to publican conversion
Message-ID: <20090103224207.GA27969@localhost.localdomain>

I started a small project to simplify some of the metadata conversion
process from our old-style, FDP toolchain-created docs into Publican:

http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/projects/rpminfo-to-publican/

It's not a code repository, just a script and some XSL stylesheets I
prepared.  It's far from bulletproof (maybe a little tetchy,
actually), so patches gratefully accepted.

The procedure:

1. Create a bare-bones Publican doc of the type you want, preferably
matching the original (book, article, or set), with brand "fedora" and
a name like "This_Guide_Name".

2. cd This_Guide_Name
   tar xzf /path/to/rpminfo-to-publican.tar.gz
   sh rpminfo-to-publican.sh /path/to/rpm-info.xml

3. Add YEAR and HOLDER entities to /This_Guide_Name.ent as usual.

The XSL stylesheets properly import names of authors, revision
history, and other document metadata to the appropriate files, and
backup the old ones in an 'orig/' folder.  You should run this
procedure *before* you put additional data in these files.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Sat Jan  3 23:15:27 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 15:15:27 -0800
Subject: rpm-info to publican conversion
In-Reply-To: <20090103224207.GA27969@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090103224207.GA27969@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090103231527.GD4289@calliope.phig.org>

On Sat, Jan 03, 2009 at 05:42:07PM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> I started a small project to simplify some of the metadata conversion
> process from our old-style, FDP toolchain-created docs into Publican:

Thanks!  I hadn't gotten this far with the Installation Guide, so this
is well timed.

If anyone wants to do what Paul describes, the branch
'f11-publican-conversion' is in the fedorahosted.org/install-guide git
repository.  You don't need to have project access, you can do it with
git-clone and git for patching.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Sun Jan  4 04:34:59 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 06:34:59 +0200
Subject: rpm-info to publican conversion
In-Reply-To: <20090103231527.GD4289@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090103224207.GA27969@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090103231527.GD4289@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1231043699.10626.76.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-01-03 at 15:15 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> Thanks!  I hadn't gotten this far with the Installation Guide, so this
> is well timed.
> 
> If anyone wants to do what Paul describes, the branch
> 'f11-publican-conversion' is in the fedorahosted.org/install-guide git
> repository.  You don't need to have project access, you can do it with
> git-clone and git for patching.
> 
> - Karsten
Karsten,

I'm not too familiar with what's covered by rpm-info - would this relate
at all to the man page coverage mini-project?



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Sun Jan  4 06:47:39 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 08:47:39 +0200
Subject: Man page coverage
In-Reply-To: <1230471677.3229.185.camel@beta.local>
References: <1230471677.3229.185.camel@beta.local>
Message-ID: <1231051659.10626.119.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I'd like to compile a list of tools that are related to man page
creation & conversion, one way or another.  I don't know if this is the
best place to do so, so please advise if someone has a better idea.

      * manedit - for editing man pages
      * xmltoman - for converting XML to man (roff) format
      * man2html

I realize this is a pretty trim list, and I know there's more, but I
wanted to get something started before the weekend is out.

________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com



From mg at hacka.net  Sun Jan  4 09:20:25 2009
From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 10:20:25 +0100
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <20090103170039.54EF56195FD@hormel.redhat.com>
References: <20090103170039.54EF56195FD@hormel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1231060825.3795.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>

My ?5 as an non US citizen.

I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost completely
ripped off published US military/government documents. Also, way to much
direct references to US military/government web pages and documents.

My though is that this needs a complete re-write.

Best regards,
//M

> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide: edit of
>       General_Principles.xml (Murray McAllister)
>    2. Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide: edit of
>       General_Principles.xml (Murray McAllister)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 14:20:01 +1000
> From: "Murray McAllister" 
> Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide: edit of
> 	General_Principles.xml
> To: "For participants of the Documentation Project"
> 	
> Cc: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> Message-ID:
> 	<95f1114b0901022020n3fe734b5icd4792d9e3b78c71 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I found some motivation this morning, so I tried to review
> "...community/fc11/en-US/General_Principles.xml".
> 
> If it looks okay, it would be great if a security person (I made minor
> additions) and a writer person could check it for accuracy.
> 
> 
> ----
> 
> --- community/fc11/en-US/General_Principles.xml	2009-01-03
> 13:44:01.000000000 +1000
> +++ new/community/fc11/en-US/General_Principles.xml	2009-01-03
> 13:42:09.000000000 +1000
> @@ -5,88 +5,70 @@
>  
>  	General Principles of Information Security
>  	
> -		The United States' National Security
> Agency (NSA) provides hardening guides and hardening tips for
> many different operating systems to help government agencies,
> businesses, and individuals help secure their system against attacks.
> In addition to specific settings to change, a set of general
> principles have been developed to give you a high level view of
> information security.
> +		The following general principals provide an overview of good
> security practices:
>  	
> -	

> -		General Principles
> -		  
> -		    
> -		      
> -			Encrypt all data transmitted over the network. Encrypting
> authentication information (such as passwords) is particularly
> important.
> -		      
> -		    
> -		    
> -		      
> -			Minimize the amount of software installed and running in order to
> minimize vulnerability.
> -		      
> -		    
> -		    
> -		      		
> -			Use security-enhancing software and tools whenever available (e.g.
> SELinux and IPTables).
> -		      
> -		    
> -		    
> -		      
> -			Run each network service on a separate server whenever possible.
> This minimizes the risk that a compromise of one service could lead to
> a compromise of others.
> -		      
> -		    
> -		    
> -		      
> -			Maintain user accounts. Create a good password policy and enforce
> its use. Delete unused user accounts.
> -		      
> -		    
> -		    
> -		      
> -			Review system and application logs on a routine basis. Send logs
> to a dedicated log server. This prevents intruders from easily
> avoiding detection by modifying the local logs.
> -		      
> -		    
> -		    
> -		      
> -			Never login directly as root, unless absolutely necessary.
> Administrators should use sudo to execute commands as root when
> required. The accounts capable of using sudo are specified in
> /etc/sudoers, which is edited with the visudo utility. By default,
> relavent logs are written to /var/log/secure.
> -		      
> -		    
> -		  
> -		

> +	
> +		
> +			
> +				encrypt all data transmitted over networks to help prevent
> man-in-the-middle attacks and eavesdropping. It is important to
> encrypt authentication information, such as passwords.
> +			
> +		
> +		
> +			
> +				minimize the amount of software installed and running services.
> +			
> +		
> +		
> +			
> +				use security-enhancing software and tools, for example,
> Security-Enhanced Linux (SELinux) for Mandatory Access Control (MAC),
> Netfilter iptables for packet filtering (firewall), and the GNU
> Privacy Guard (GnuPG) for encrypting documents.
> +			
> +		
> +		
> +			
> +				if possible, run each network service on a separate system to
> minimize the risk of one compromised service being used to compromise
> other services.
> +			
> +		
> +		
> +			
> +				maintain user accounts: create and enforce a strong password
> policy; delete unused user accounts.
> +			
> +		
> +		
> +			
> +				routinely review system and application logs. By default,
> security-relevant system logs are written to
> /var/log/secure and
> /var/log/audit/audit.log. Note: sending logs to a
> dedicated log server helps prevent attackers from easily modifying
> local logs to avoid detection.
> +			
> +		
> +		
> +			
> +				never log in as the root user unless absolutely necessary. It is
> recommended that administrators use sudo to execute
> commands as root when required. Users capable of running
> sudo are specified in
> /etc/sudoers. Use the visudo
> utility to edit /etc/sudoers.
> +			
> +		
> +	
>  		

>  		Tips, Guides, and Tools
>  		
> -			Most of the above tips are very basic. Depending on your knowledge
> of Linux and how comfortable you are with modifying your system, some
> changes could be made to help make your installation more secure. As
> mentioned above, the NSA has hardening guides and tips for securing
> Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5. Likewise, the  url="http://www.disa.mil/">Defense Information Systems Agency
> (DISA) has an Information Assurance Support
> Environment in which they publish checklists and tests for
> verifying the security of your system. The documents from the NSA are
> a good read for anyone familiar with Linux while the information from
> DISA is extremely specific and advanced knowledge of Unix/Linux would
> be a great benefit. Links to these documents are listed below. We will
> try to pull some of the larger items out of these documents and
> explain how to implement them in Fedora and why they are important. In
> addition to documentation, DISA has made available SRR scripts that
> allow an administrator to check specific settings on a system quickly.
> The SRR scripts will provide an XML-formatted report listing any known
> vulnerable settings that you have on your system.
> +			The United States' National
> Security Agency (NSA) provides hardening guides and tips for
> many different operating systems, to help government agencies,
> businesses, and individuals secure their systems against attack. The
> following guides (in PDF format) provide guidance for Red Hat
> Enterprise Linux 5:
>  		
> -		

> -		

> -		NSA Documents
>  		
> -		  
> -		    
> -		       url="www.nsa.gov/notices/notic00004.cfm?Address=/snac/os/redhat/rhel5-pamphlet-i731.pdf">Hardening
> Tips for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 (PDF)
> -		    
> -		  
> -		  
> -		    		
> -		       url="www.nsa.gov/notices/notic00004.cfm?Address=/snac/os/redhat/rhel5-guide-i731.pdf">Guide
> to the Secure Configuration of Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5
> (PDF)
> -		    
> -		  
> +			
> +				
> +					Hardening
> Tips for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5
> +				
> +			
> +			
> +				
> +					Guide
> to the Secure Configuration of Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5
> +				
> +			
>  		
> -		

> -		

> -		DISA IASE Documents
> -		
> -		  
> -		    
> -		      Security
> Technical Implementation Guides (STIG) Scroll down to the Unix
> STIG
> -		    
> -		  
> -		  
> -		    
> -		       url="iase.disa.mil/stigs/checklist/index.html">Security
> Checklists Scroll down to the Unix Security Checklists
> -		    
> -		  
> -		  
> -		    
> -		      Unix Security
> Readiness Review Evaluation Script
> -		    
> -		  
> -		
> -		

> -	      
> -
> +		
> +			The Defense Information Systems
> Agency (DISA) provides documentation, checklists, and tests to
> help secure your system ( url="http://iase.disa.mil/index2.html">Information Assurance Support
> Environment). The  url="http://iase.disa.mil/stigs/stig/unix-stig-v5r1.pdf">UNIX SECURITY
> TECHNICAL IMPLEMENTATION GUIDE (PDF) is a very specific guide
> to UNIX security - an advanced knowledge of UNIX and Linux is
> recommended before reading this guide.
> +		
> +		
> +			The DISA  url="http://iase.disa.mil/stigs/checklist/unix_checklist_v5r1_15_20081215.ZIP">UNIX
> Security Checklist Version 5, Release 1.15 provides a
> collection of documents and checklists, ranging from the correct
> ownerships and modes for system files, to patch control.
> +		
> +		
> +			Also, DISA has made available  url="http://iase.disa.mil/stigs/SRR/unix.html">UNIX SPR
> scripts that allow administrators to check specific settings
> on systems. These scripts provide XML-formatted reports listing any
> known vulnerable settings.
> +		
> +	

> +
> \ No newline at end of file
> 
> ----
> 
> The link for "Hardening Tips for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5" does
> not work after accepting the license agreement. I have mailed
> .
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 14:29:55 +1000
> From: "Murray McAllister" 
> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide: edit of
> 	General_Principles.xml
> To: "For participants of the Documentation Project"
> 	
> Message-ID:
> 	<95f1114b0901022029s29abea16h75e87c93160ee001 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> I did not test how this would send, sorry. Use:
> 
> wget http://mdious.fedorapeople.org/patches/General_Principles.xml.patch
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> 
> End of fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 59, Issue 4
> ***********************************************



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Sun Jan  4 11:07:16 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 21:07:16 +1000
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <1231060825.3795.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090103170039.54EF56195FD@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231060825.3795.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901040307y63ba6efdy5ed7e8a268232c2e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Magnus Glantz  wrote:
> My ?5 as an non US citizen.
>
> I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost completely
> ripped off published US military/government documents.
I only looked at the English. I was not aware of the origins of the content.

I will be more careful in future.

Thanks! :-)



From stickster at gmail.com  Sun Jan  4 14:38:06 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:38:06 -0500
Subject: rpm-info to publican conversion
In-Reply-To: <1231043699.10626.76.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090103224207.GA27969@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090103231527.GD4289@calliope.phig.org>
	<1231043699.10626.76.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090104143806.GA18821@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 06:34:59AM +0200, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-01-03 at 15:15 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> > Thanks!  I hadn't gotten this far with the Installation Guide, so this
> > is well timed.
> > 
> > If anyone wants to do what Paul describes, the branch
> > 'f11-publican-conversion' is in the fedorahosted.org/install-guide git
> > repository.  You don't need to have project access, you can do it with
> > git-clone and git for patching.
> > 
> > - Karsten
> Karsten,
> 
> I'm not too familiar with what's covered by rpm-info - would this relate
> at all to the man page coverage mini-project?

Not as far as I can tell.

The rpm-info.xml document is a metadata container we use in our legacy
FDP toolchain.  It holds information that is transformed for use in
turning our DocBook XML documents into HTML, PDF, RPM, etc.  Publican
has mostly the same functionality but a completely different way of
storing information, so I created this conversion stuff to help people
who are moving documents from one to the other.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Sun Jan  4 14:44:55 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:44:55 -0500
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0901040307y63ba6efdy5ed7e8a268232c2e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090103170039.54EF56195FD@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231060825.3795.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901040307y63ba6efdy5ed7e8a268232c2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090104144455.GB18821@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 09:07:16PM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Magnus Glantz  wrote:
> > My ?5 as an non US citizen.
> >
> > I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost completely
> > ripped off published US military/government documents.
> I only looked at the English. I was not aware of the origins of the content.
> 
> I will be more careful in future.
> 
> Thanks! :-)

"Ripped off" seems unnecessarily harsh to me, and incorrectly implies
that somehow the content was lifted without permission, when in fact
the references in question are freely available to everyone (USA
domestic or foreign).  The principles embodied in most of those
references are fairly universal and you'll find them echoed in most
high-level infosec materials.  In fact, some foreign governments use
these references themselves.

The Security Guide continues to be a collaborative, participatory
project, so anyone who is unhappy with the content -- or completely
satisfied, too, for that matter -- is free to get involved! :-)  You
could start by providing equivalent or comparable non-US references,
for example.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From mg at hacka.net  Sun Jan  4 22:34:53 2009
From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 23:34:53 +0100
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <20090104170034.7EB37619AA3@hormel.redhat.com>
References: <20090104170034.7EB37619AA3@hormel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1231108493.3910.472.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I'm sorry if I came off a bit rude, it wasn't my intent.
Also, I'm sorry for not being constructive, I'll try not and e-mail during rush our in the future :-)

About a more wide spread flora of security references. My thought was that the more known universities around the world
must have written kilometers of papers on Linux Security. Finding freely available papers describing general security on
Linux was easier said than done. I found some references during a quick scan this evening.

I guess it's a matter of trust. Of course the US Government and the NSA has excellent and trustworthy security people,
and that information in this subject is collaborative.. but at least I feel more secure seeing that it's not only
the US Government and secret service that approves and advocates the security issues brought out in this security guide.

Universities:
http://www.princeton.edu/~essweb/linux/linuxsecurity.html
http://www.yale.edu/its/secure-computing/
http://www.yale.edu/its/security/sysadmin/server-guidelines.html
http://www.yale.edu/its/security/network/unix.html
http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/security/unix-box.html

Other:
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-HOWTO/
http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-Quickstart-HOWTO/
http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Secure-Programs-HOWTO/open-source-security.html
http://www.puschitz.com/SecuringLinux.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Security_Modules

Vendors:
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide/

I'll try and find some more / better references as soon as I have some more free time.

//M


s?n 2009-01-04 klockan 12:00 -0500 skrev Message: 8
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:44:55 -0500
From: "Paul W. Frields" 
Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
Message-ID: <20090104144455.GB18821 at localhost.localdomain>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 09:07:16PM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Magnus Glantz  wrote:
> > My 5 as an non US citizen.
> >
> > I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost completely
> > ripped off published US military/government documents.
> I only looked at the English. I was not aware of the origins of the
content.
> 
> I will be more careful in future.
> 
> Thanks! :-)

"Ripped off" seems unnecessarily harsh to me, and incorrectly implies
that somehow the content was lifted without permission, when in fact
the references in question are freely available to everyone (USA
domestic or foreign).  The principles embodied in most of those
references are fairly universal and you'll find them echoed in most
high-level infosec materials.  In fact, some foreign governments use
these references themselves.

The Security Guide continues to be a collaborative, participatory
project, so anyone who is unhappy with the content -- or completely
satisfied, too, for that matter -- is free to get involved! :-)  You
could start by providing equivalent or comparable non-US references,
for example.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Jan  5 03:23:45 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:23:45 -0500
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <1231108493.3910.472.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090104170034.7EB37619AA3@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231108493.3910.472.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49617D41.5040205@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Good resources.  Thanks for sending them.  My reasoning for building
that part of the Security Guide based on US Government documents and not
documents from Universities or commercial sources has a simple
explanation.  Government computers HAVE to be secure.  I've seen way too
many universities and businesses run a half-way security mindset.  They
are too interested in the bottom line than a secure system even though a
secure system will help the bottom line in the long run.

The only other industry that I would like to pull from is the banking
industry.  They are generally notorious for their secure systems (I'm
talking about the larger banks).  They could stand to loose billions of
dollars if they are "broken into".  Of course most of the banks make
their documentation secret as to not tip off anyone with a possible
documented flaw.

I agree that we should be looking at multiple sources and that will come
in time.  Please feel free to add information into the guide.  I'll be
happy to read any patches that you, or anyone else, has to offer to the
guide.  If you have any specific interests, please let me know!

Thanks,
Eric Christensen
E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
GPG Key: BD0C14C1



Magnus Glantz wrote:
> I'm sorry if I came off a bit rude, it wasn't my intent.
> Also, I'm sorry for not being constructive, I'll try not and e-mail during rush our in the future :-)
> 
> About a more wide spread flora of security references. My thought was that the more known universities around the world
> must have written kilometers of papers on Linux Security. Finding freely available papers describing general security on
> Linux was easier said than done. I found some references during a quick scan this evening.
> 
> I guess it's a matter of trust. Of course the US Government and the NSA has excellent and trustworthy security people,
> and that information in this subject is collaborative.. but at least I feel more secure seeing that it's not only
> the US Government and secret service that approves and advocates the security issues brought out in this security guide.
> 
> Universities:
> http://www.princeton.edu/~essweb/linux/linuxsecurity.html
> http://www.yale.edu/its/secure-computing/
> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/sysadmin/server-guidelines.html
> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/network/unix.html
> http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/security/unix-box.html
> 
> Other:
> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-HOWTO/
> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-Quickstart-HOWTO/
> http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Secure-Programs-HOWTO/open-source-security.html
> http://www.puschitz.com/SecuringLinux.shtml
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Security_Modules
> 
> Vendors:
> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide/
> 
> I'll try and find some more / better references as soon as I have some more free time.
> 
> //M
> 
> 
> s?n 2009-01-04 klockan 12:00 -0500 skrev Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:44:55 -0500
> From: "Paul W. Frields" 
> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <20090104144455.GB18821 at localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 09:07:16PM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Magnus Glantz  wrote:
>>> My 5 as an non US citizen.
>>>
>>> I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost completely
>>> ripped off published US military/government documents.
>> I only looked at the English. I was not aware of the origins of the
> content.
>> I will be more careful in future.
>>
>> Thanks! :-)
> 
> "Ripped off" seems unnecessarily harsh to me, and incorrectly implies
> that somehow the content was lifted without permission, when in fact
> the references in question are freely available to everyone (USA
> domestic or foreign).  The principles embodied in most of those
> references are fairly universal and you'll find them echoed in most
> high-level infosec materials.  In fact, some foreign governments use
> these references themselves.
> 
> The Security Guide continues to be a collaborative, participatory
> project, so anyone who is unhappy with the content -- or completely
> satisfied, too, for that matter -- is free to get involved! :-)  You
> could start by providing equivalent or comparable non-US references,
> for example.
> 
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Jan  5 04:42:20 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:12:20 +0530
Subject: curl instead of wget
Message-ID: <49618FAC.30400@fedoraproject.org>

Hi,

In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
while curl is. Just a thought.

Rahul



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Mon Jan  5 05:01:54 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:01:54 +0200
Subject: curl instead of wget
In-Reply-To: <49618FAC.30400@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49618FAC.30400@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1231131714.3714.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> while curl is. Just a thought.
> 
> Rahul
> 
I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
(e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
of Fedora)?

________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com



From ianweller at gmail.com  Mon Jan  5 05:04:11 2009
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:04:11 -0600
Subject: curl instead of wget
In-Reply-To: <1231131714.3714.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49618FAC.30400@fedoraproject.org>
	<1231131714.3714.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090105050411.GA3404@gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:01:54AM +0200, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> > use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> > while curl is. Just a thought.
> > 
> > Rahul
> > 
> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
> of Fedora)?
> 
Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?

-- 
Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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From danielsmw at gmail.com  Mon Jan  5 05:07:10 2009
From: danielsmw at gmail.com (Matthew Daniels)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:07:10 -0500
Subject: curl instead of wget
In-Reply-To: <20090105050411.GA3404@gmail.com>
References: <49618FAC.30400@fedoraproject.org>
	<1231131714.3714.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090105050411.GA3404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
>> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl,  
>> and I
>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be  
>> new
>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new  
>> installation
>> of Fedora)?
>>
> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?

I would think so.  Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if  
they'll do that for F11?  I mean... what's the size of wget?  I can't  
be more than a few hundred KB.

- Matthew



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Mon Jan  5 05:28:57 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:28:57 +0200
Subject: curl instead of wget
In-Reply-To: <20090105050411.GA3404@gmail.com>
References: <49618FAC.30400@fedoraproject.org>
	<1231131714.3714.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090105050411.GA3404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1231133338.3714.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 23:04 -0600, Ian Weller wrote:
> > 
> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?

I was fearful of making the same suggestion myself, since this is the
Docs list, but that's what I think is best as well.  Frankly, I'm quite
surprised it was never included in the first place.  I actually thought
it was part of the core utilities needed to admin a system.


________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com



From ccurran at redhat.com  Mon Jan  5 05:35:33 2009
From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:35:33 +1000
Subject: curl instead of wget
In-Reply-To: <49618FAC.30400@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49618FAC.30400@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49619C25.9020804@redhat.com>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi,
>
> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> while curl is. Just a thought.
>
> Rahul
>
Sure I can update future docs if you can point me at the thread where 
they decided to drop it.

Chris



From ianweller at gmail.com  Mon Jan  5 06:21:13 2009
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:21:13 -0600
Subject: curl instead of wget
In-Reply-To: 
References: <49618FAC.30400@fedoraproject.org>
	<1231131714.3714.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090105050411.GA3404@gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <20090105062113.GB5608@gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 12:07:10AM -0500, Matthew Daniels wrote:
> I would think so.  Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if they'll 
> do that for F11?  I mean... what's the size of wget?  I can't be more 
> than a few hundred KB.
>
It's 1.5 MB, according to rpm -qi wget, but the .rpm file itself is
600kB. IIRC, the former would be on the Live distribution, while the
latter is on the mirrors and the install media.

-- 
Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Jan  5 06:25:15 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 11:55:15 +0530
Subject: curl instead of wget
In-Reply-To: <1231131714.3714.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <49618FAC.30400@fedoraproject.org>
	<1231131714.3714.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4961A7CB.6080704@fedoraproject.org>

Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
>> while curl is. Just a thought.
>>
>> Rahul
>>
> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
> of Fedora)?

The basic usage is simple.

curl 

If you want to suggest wget be (re-)added, that is a fedora-desktop list 
discussion.

Rahul



From kwade at redhat.com  Mon Jan  5 15:21:57 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 07:21:57 -0800
Subject: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
Message-ID: <20090105152157.GI5819@calliope.phig.org>

We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.

Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
discussions here in advance.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008

Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Jan  5 15:37:03 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:37:03 -0500
Subject: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
In-Reply-To: <20090105152157.GI5819@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090105152157.GI5819@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <20090105153703.GQ25582@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:21:57AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
> important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.
> 
> Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
> discussions here in advance.
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008
> 
> Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.

Not trying to be confusing -- on the contrary, making sure I can keep
my schedule clear, be there, and pay attention purely to our meeting.
We're meeting at 1900 UTC / 2:00pm EST / 11:00am PST?

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From ianweller at gmail.com  Mon Jan  5 21:43:20 2009
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:43:20 -0600
Subject: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
In-Reply-To: <20090105153703.GQ25582@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090105152157.GI5819@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090105153703.GQ25582@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090105214320.GC27903@gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 10:37:03AM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Not trying to be confusing -- on the contrary, making sure I can keep
> my schedule clear, be there, and pay attention purely to our meeting.
> We're meeting at 1900 UTC / 2:00pm EST / 11:00am PST?
> 
I'm in school at this time, for the record. I did want to check and see
if tehre's anything that FDSCo wanted to make sure I mention in my
"State of the Wiki" presentation on Saturday.

I'm planning for it to be about a 15 minute presentation, followed by a
Q & A.

-- 
Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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From mg at hacka.net  Tue Jan  6 00:47:53 2009
From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:47:53 +0100
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <20090105170059.9B5CD8E022A@hormel.redhat.com>
References: <20090105170059.9B5CD8E022A@hormel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1231202873.3828.100.camel@localhost.localdomain>

This e-mail is about security and user friendliness, and how I think this guide perhaps may be modified into something better.
This may also be me misunderstanding the purpose of this guide. Be aware.

I agree that Government Security Agencies and Banks has more to loose than a lot of other people :-)

Last night I couldn't get to sleep, due to my big mouth, so I thought a bit more about the security guide.
I guess this guide aims to the users of Fedora. This may be a huuge misconception on my part, but, I though
regular home users are the main users of Fedora. So.. this guide should perhaps to be focused on that kind of usage and
that kind of knowledge levels.

My experience, working with security in highly secure government/telco environments is that security
and ease of use/user friendliness is two most important main counter parts.

On one hand, it's "pretty easy" to make something extremely secure, but extremely secure systems is a total drag to be in
- because they are difficult to access, use and communicate to and from, due to all restrictions and security related administration.
I believe the standard Fedora user never would want such a system. In a system like that security has compromised to much user friendliness for it to be fun.
If security isn't your definition of happy-happy joy-joy :-)

I had a thought that perhaps this guide should mainly not focus on different things that makes a system secure as a bank.
Instead perhaps it should focus on covering techniques that allows ones home computer to operate in a secure
_and_ user friendly manner.

Here's what I wrote on my phone last night, trying to kill demons of guilt and shame spawned out of my nonconstructive mail yesterday.
I tried to sort them in order of positive impact on security weighed against user friendliness.

1) Keep your system up-to-date.
1.1) Perhaps advocacy that users should prefer "Yum installed software", as it automatically will get updated via Yum.
2) Keep backups of your data.
2.1) Some easy ways of backing up data. Burn on CD/DVD, put on external storage, backup hard drive, etc. S/W recommendations.	
3) Running a firewall.
3.1) Using the shipped Fedora firewall setup tools, enabling the firewall at install.
4) Use SE-Linux
5) Use common sense
5.1 Do not accept unknown stuff/software from unknown people. If a stranger walked up to you in real life and offered you an unidentifiable object.. and you at the same time
    constantly heard and read stories of people accepting unidentifiable objects from strangers - finding out the object was a bomb / robotic miniature robber - YOU WOULD RUN AWAY!
5) Do not run server software that you do not use (as web, mail, ftp, nfs or even a ssh server (if it's a desktop))
6) Advanced topics -  Here one may cover more "user unfriendly" stuff for the paranoid government spy user types :-) 
6.1 Encryption of different kinds (files, file systems, e-mail, etc)
6.2 Advanced hardening techniques and tools.
6.3 Advanced auditing techniques and tools
6.4 Security policy and/or paranoid thinking

Some more links.

Organizations:
http://www.cert.org/archive/pdf/aia-handbook.pdf
http://www.first.org/resources/guides/
http://www.sans.org/reading_room/

//M

m?n 2009-01-05 klockan 12:00 -0500 
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:23:45 -0500
> From: Eric Christensen 
> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <49617D41.5040205 at christensenplace.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Good resources.  Thanks for sending them.  My reasoning for building
> that part of the Security Guide based on US Government documents and not
> documents from Universities or commercial sources has a simple
> explanation.  Government computers HAVE to be secure.  I've seen way too
> many universities and businesses run a half-way security mindset.  They
> are too interested in the bottom line than a secure system even though a
> secure system will help the bottom line in the long run.
> 
> The only other industry that I would like to pull from is the banking
> industry.  They are generally notorious for their secure systems (I'm
> talking about the larger banks).  They could stand to loose billions of
> dollars if they are "broken into".  Of course most of the banks make
> their documentation secret as to not tip off anyone with a possible
> documented flaw.
> 
> I agree that we should be looking at multiple sources and that will come
> in time.  Please feel free to add information into the guide.  I'll be
> happy to read any patches that you, or anyone else, has to offer to the
> guide.  If you have any specific interests, please let me know!
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric Christensen
> E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> GPG Key: BD0C14C1
> 
> 
> 
> Magnus Glantz wrote:
> > I'm sorry if I came off a bit rude, it wasn't my intent.
> > Also, I'm sorry for not being constructive, I'll try not and e-mail during rush our in the future :-)
> > 
> > About a more wide spread flora of security references. My thought was that the more known universities around the world
> > must have written kilometers of papers on Linux Security. Finding freely available papers describing general security on
> > Linux was easier said than done. I found some references during a quick scan this evening.
> > 
> > I guess it's a matter of trust. Of course the US Government and the NSA has excellent and trustworthy security people,
> > and that information in this subject is collaborative.. but at least I feel more secure seeing that it's not only
> > the US Government and secret service that approves and advocates the security issues brought out in this security guide.
> > 
> > Universities:
> > http://www.princeton.edu/~essweb/linux/linuxsecurity.html
> > http://www.yale.edu/its/secure-computing/
> > http://www.yale.edu/its/security/sysadmin/server-guidelines.html
> > http://www.yale.edu/its/security/network/unix.html
> > http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/security/unix-box.html
> > 
> > Other:
> > http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-HOWTO/
> > http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-Quickstart-HOWTO/
> > http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Secure-Programs-HOWTO/open-source-security.html
> > http://www.puschitz.com/SecuringLinux.shtml
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Security_Modules
> > 
> > Vendors:
> > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide/
> > 
> > I'll try and find some more / better references as soon as I have some more free time.
> > 
> > //M
> > 
> > 
> > sn 2009-01-04 klockan 12:00 -0500 skrev Message: 8
> > Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:44:55 -0500
> > From: "Paul W. Frields" 
> > Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> > To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > Message-ID: <20090104144455.GB18821 at localhost.localdomain>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > 
> > On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 09:07:16PM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> >> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Magnus Glantz  wrote:
> >>> My 5 as an non US citizen.
> >>>
> >>> I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost completely
> >>> ripped off published US military/government documents.
> >> I only looked at the English. I was not aware of the origins of the
> > content.
> >> I will be more careful in future.
> >>
> >> Thanks! :-)
> > 
> > "Ripped off" seems unnecessarily harsh to me, and incorrectly implies
> > that somehow the content was lifted without permission, when in fact
> > the references in question are freely available to everyone (USA
> > domestic or foreign).  The principles embodied in most of those
> > references are fairly universal and you'll find them echoed in most
> > high-level infosec materials.  In fact, some foreign governments use
> > these references themselves.
> > 
> > The Security Guide continues to be a collaborative, participatory
> > project, so anyone who is unhappy with the content -- or completely
> > satisfied, too, for that matter -- is free to get involved! :-)  You
> > could start by providing equivalent or comparable non-US references,
> > for example.
> > 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> 
> iEYEARECAAYFAklhfT4ACgkQfQTSQL0MFMELjwCgpdCn9TKLWOcWs8eWtE+MHTsq
> tuIAoNE0uJypOTF8ScTOr9IXyyBdw5e1
> =HflS
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:12:20 +0530
> From: Rahul Sundaram 
> Subject: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <49618FAC.30400 at fedoraproject.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> while curl is. Just a thought.
> 
> Rahul
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:01:54 +0200
> From: Basil Mohamed Gohar 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <1231131714.3714.7.camel at localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> 
> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> > use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> > while curl is. Just a thought.
> > 
> > Rahul
> > 
> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
> of Fedora)?
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Basil Mohamed Gohar
> abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
> www.basilgohar.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:04:11 -0600
> From: Ian Weller 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <20090105050411.GA3404 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:01:54AM +0200, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> > > use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> > > while curl is. Just a thought.
> > > 
> > > Rahul
> > > 
> > I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> > LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
> > must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> > straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
> > (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
> > of Fedora)?
> > 
> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
> 
> -- 
> Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
> GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
> "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
>   ~ Douglas Adams
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:07:10 -0500
> From: Matthew Daniels 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
> 
> >> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> >> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl,  
> >> and I
> >> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> >> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be  
> >> new
> >> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new  
> >> installation
> >> of Fedora)?
> >>
> > Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
> 
> I would think so.  Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if  
> they'll do that for F11?  I mean... what's the size of wget?  I can't  
> be more than a few hundred KB.
> 
> - Matthew
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:28:57 +0200
> From: Basil Mohamed Gohar 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <1231133338.3714.10.camel at localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> 
> On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 23:04 -0600, Ian Weller wrote:
> > > 
> > Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
> 
> I was fearful of making the same suggestion myself, since this is the
> Docs list, but that's what I think is best as well.  Frankly, I'm quite
> surprised it was never included in the first place.  I actually thought
> it was part of the core utilities needed to admin a system.
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Basil Mohamed Gohar
> abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
> www.basilgohar.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:35:33 +1000
> From: Christopher Curran 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <49619C25.9020804 at redhat.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> > use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> > while curl is. Just a thought.
> >
> > Rahul
> >
> Sure I can update future docs if you can point me at the thread where 
> they decided to drop it.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:21:13 -0600
> From: Ian Weller 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <20090105062113.GB5608 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 12:07:10AM -0500, Matthew Daniels wrote:
> > I would think so.  Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if they'll 
> > do that for F11?  I mean... what's the size of wget?  I can't be more 
> > than a few hundred KB.
> >
> It's 1.5 MB, according to rpm -qi wget, but the .rpm file itself is
> 600kB. IIRC, the former would be on the Live distribution, while the
> latter is on the mirrors and the install media.
> 
> -- 
> Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
> GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
> "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
>   ~ Douglas Adams
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 11:55:15 +0530
> From: Rahul Sundaram 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <4961A7CB.6080704 at fedoraproject.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> >> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> >> while curl is. Just a thought.
> >>
> >> Rahul
> >>
> > I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> > LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
> > must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> > straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
> > (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
> > of Fedora)?
> 
> The basic usage is simple.
> 
> curl 
> 
> If you want to suggest wget be (re-)added, that is a fedora-desktop list 
> discussion.
> 
> Rahul
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 07:21:57 -0800
> From: Karsten Wade 
> Subject: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <20090105152157.GI5819 at calliope.phig.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
> important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.
> 
> Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
> discussions here in advance.
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008
> 
> Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.
> 
> - Karsten
> -- 
> Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
> http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
> AD0E0C41
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:37:03 -0500
> From: "Paul W. Frields" 
> Subject: Re: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <20090105153703.GQ25582 at localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:21:57AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> > We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
> > important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.
> > 
> > Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
> > discussions here in advance.
> > 
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008
> > 
> > Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.
> 
> Not trying to be confusing -- on the contrary, making sure I can keep
> my schedule clear, be there, and pay attention purely to our meeting.
> We're meeting at 1900 UTC / 2:00pm EST / 11:00am PST?
> 
> -- 
> Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
>   gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
>   http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
>   irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> 
> End of fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 59, Issue 6
> ***********************************************



From sradvan at redhat.com  Tue Jan  6 03:35:26 2009
From: sradvan at redhat.com (Scott Radvan)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:35:26 +1000
Subject: PATCH Linux Security Guide: edit of Security_Introduction.xml
Message-ID: <20090106133526.6b9e5e0e@redhat.com>

Hi


Figured this page could do with a brief update adding more recent
well-known security incidents, and statistics etc.

Patch file [Security_Introduction.xml.patch] is available here:

http://sradvan.fedorapeople.org/

Comments/edits are more than welcome.


-- 
Scott Radvan, Content Author
Red Hat APAC (Brisbane) http://www.apac.redhat.com
"Emancipation from the bondage of the soil is no freedom for the tree."



From eric at christensenplace.us  Tue Jan  6 04:20:03 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:20:03 -0500
Subject: PATCH Linux Security Guide: edit of Security_Introduction.xml
In-Reply-To: <20090106133526.6b9e5e0e@redhat.com>
References: <20090106133526.6b9e5e0e@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <4962DBF3.1000500@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Scott,
Can you file that patch in the Trac ticketing system [1], please?  We
are going to start using that to manage patches and bugs.

[1] https://fedorahosted.org/securityguide


Thanks,
Eric Christensen
E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
GPG Key: BD0C14C1


Scott Radvan wrote:
> Hi
> 
> 
> Figured this page could do with a brief update adding more recent
> well-known security incidents, and statistics etc.
> 
> Patch file [Security_Introduction.xml.patch] is available here:
> 
> http://sradvan.fedorapeople.org/
> 
> Comments/edits are more than welcome.
> 
> 
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Tue Jan  6 04:24:36 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:24:36 -0500
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <1231202873.3828.100.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090105170059.9B5CD8E022A@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231202873.3828.100.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4962DD04.80709@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I agree, in part, with your overview.  A completely secure system is one
that is unplugged and that isn't exactly useful.  I would dare say that
you don't want the same level of security as I do or as anyone else
might which is why it is important to give as much information as
possible and let people pick and choose what they feel is important to
their specific needs.

Case in point, admin A has a server in a cave that is physically highly
protected.  Disk encryption and securing single user mode might not be
as important as securing the network connection.  So that admin might
only care about the VPN, SSH, IPTables, and related chapters and not so
much on the LUKS Disk Encryption.

I feel that it is important to give admins and users as much information
as possible so they can make an educated decision on mitigating their
systems down to an acceptable level of risk.  Users should know that
their systems are NOT secure as soon as they install Fedora or any other
operating system.

If we are missing something you think should be addressed please feel
free to develop a chapter.

Thanks,
Eric Christensen
E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
GPG Key: BD0C14C1





Magnus Glantz wrote:
> This e-mail is about security and user friendliness, and how I think this guide perhaps may be modified into something better.
> This may also be me misunderstanding the purpose of this guide. Be aware.
> 
> I agree that Government Security Agencies and Banks has more to loose than a lot of other people :-)
> 
> Last night I couldn't get to sleep, due to my big mouth, so I thought a bit more about the security guide.
> I guess this guide aims to the users of Fedora. This may be a huuge misconception on my part, but, I though
> regular home users are the main users of Fedora. So.. this guide should perhaps to be focused on that kind of usage and
> that kind of knowledge levels.
> 
> My experience, working with security in highly secure government/telco environments is that security
> and ease of use/user friendliness is two most important main counter parts.
> 
> On one hand, it's "pretty easy" to make something extremely secure, but extremely secure systems is a total drag to be in
> - because they are difficult to access, use and communicate to and from, due to all restrictions and security related administration.
> I believe the standard Fedora user never would want such a system. In a system like that security has compromised to much user friendliness for it to be fun.
> If security isn't your definition of happy-happy joy-joy :-)
> 
> I had a thought that perhaps this guide should mainly not focus on different things that makes a system secure as a bank.
> Instead perhaps it should focus on covering techniques that allows ones home computer to operate in a secure
> _and_ user friendly manner.
> 
> Here's what I wrote on my phone last night, trying to kill demons of guilt and shame spawned out of my nonconstructive mail yesterday.
> I tried to sort them in order of positive impact on security weighed against user friendliness.
> 
> 1) Keep your system up-to-date.
> 1.1) Perhaps advocacy that users should prefer "Yum installed software", as it automatically will get updated via Yum.
> 2) Keep backups of your data.
> 2.1) Some easy ways of backing up data. Burn on CD/DVD, put on external storage, backup hard drive, etc. S/W recommendations.	
> 3) Running a firewall.
> 3.1) Using the shipped Fedora firewall setup tools, enabling the firewall at install.
> 4) Use SE-Linux
> 5) Use common sense
> 5.1 Do not accept unknown stuff/software from unknown people. If a stranger walked up to you in real life and offered you an unidentifiable object.. and you at the same time
>     constantly heard and read stories of people accepting unidentifiable objects from strangers - finding out the object was a bomb / robotic miniature robber - YOU WOULD RUN AWAY!
> 5) Do not run server software that you do not use (as web, mail, ftp, nfs or even a ssh server (if it's a desktop))
> 6) Advanced topics -  Here one may cover more "user unfriendly" stuff for the paranoid government spy user types :-) 
> 6.1 Encryption of different kinds (files, file systems, e-mail, etc)
> 6.2 Advanced hardening techniques and tools.
> 6.3 Advanced auditing techniques and tools
> 6.4 Security policy and/or paranoid thinking
> 
> Some more links.
> 
> Organizations:
> http://www.cert.org/archive/pdf/aia-handbook.pdf
> http://www.first.org/resources/guides/
> http://www.sans.org/reading_room/
> 
> //M
> 
> m?n 2009-01-05 klockan 12:00 -0500 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:23:45 -0500
>> From: Eric Christensen 
>> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
>> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
>> 	
>> Message-ID: <49617D41.5040205 at christensenplace.us>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
> Good resources.  Thanks for sending them.  My reasoning for building
> that part of the Security Guide based on US Government documents and not
> documents from Universities or commercial sources has a simple
> explanation.  Government computers HAVE to be secure.  I've seen way too
> many universities and businesses run a half-way security mindset.  They
> are too interested in the bottom line than a secure system even though a
> secure system will help the bottom line in the long run.
> 
> The only other industry that I would like to pull from is the banking
> industry.  They are generally notorious for their secure systems (I'm
> talking about the larger banks).  They could stand to loose billions of
> dollars if they are "broken into".  Of course most of the banks make
> their documentation secret as to not tip off anyone with a possible
> documented flaw.
> 
> I agree that we should be looking at multiple sources and that will come
> in time.  Please feel free to add information into the guide.  I'll be
> happy to read any patches that you, or anyone else, has to offer to the
> guide.  If you have any specific interests, please let me know!
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric Christensen
> E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> GPG Key: BD0C14C1
> 
> 
> 
> Magnus Glantz wrote:
>>>> I'm sorry if I came off a bit rude, it wasn't my intent.
>>>> Also, I'm sorry for not being constructive, I'll try not and e-mail during rush our in the future :-)
>>>>
>>>> About a more wide spread flora of security references. My thought was that the more known universities around the world
>>>> must have written kilometers of papers on Linux Security. Finding freely available papers describing general security on
>>>> Linux was easier said than done. I found some references during a quick scan this evening.
>>>>
>>>> I guess it's a matter of trust. Of course the US Government and the NSA has excellent and trustworthy security people,
>>>> and that information in this subject is collaborative.. but at least I feel more secure seeing that it's not only
>>>> the US Government and secret service that approves and advocates the security issues brought out in this security guide.
>>>>
>>>> Universities:
>>>> http://www.princeton.edu/~essweb/linux/linuxsecurity.html
>>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/secure-computing/
>>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/sysadmin/server-guidelines.html
>>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/network/unix.html
>>>> http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/security/unix-box.html
>>>>
>>>> Other:
>>>> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-HOWTO/
>>>> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-Quickstart-HOWTO/
>>>> http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Secure-Programs-HOWTO/open-source-security.html
>>>> http://www.puschitz.com/SecuringLinux.shtml
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Security_Modules
>>>>
>>>> Vendors:
>>>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide/
>>>>
>>>> I'll try and find some more / better references as soon as I have some more free time.
>>>>
>>>> //M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> sn 2009-01-04 klockan 12:00 -0500 skrev Message: 8
>>>> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:44:55 -0500
>>>> From: "Paul W. Frields" 
>>>> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
>>>> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
>>>> Message-ID: <20090104144455.GB18821 at localhost.localdomain>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 09:07:16PM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Magnus Glantz  wrote:
>>>>>> My 5 as an non US citizen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost completely
>>>>>> ripped off published US military/government documents.
>>>>> I only looked at the English. I was not aware of the origins of the
>>>> content.
>>>>> I will be more careful in future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks! :-)
>>>> "Ripped off" seems unnecessarily harsh to me, and incorrectly implies
>>>> that somehow the content was lifted without permission, when in fact
>>>> the references in question are freely available to everyone (USA
>>>> domestic or foreign).  The principles embodied in most of those
>>>> references are fairly universal and you'll find them echoed in most
>>>> high-level infosec materials.  In fact, some foreign governments use
>>>> these references themselves.
>>>>
>>>> The Security Guide continues to be a collaborative, participatory
>>>> project, so anyone who is unhappy with the content -- or completely
>>>> satisfied, too, for that matter -- is free to get involved! :-)  You
>>>> could start by providing equivalent or comparable non-US references,
>>>> for example.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
- ------------------------------
>>
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:12:20 +0530
From: Rahul Sundaram 
Subject: curl instead of wget
To: For participants of the Documentation Project
	
Message-ID: <49618FAC.30400 at fedoraproject.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
Hi,
>>
In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to
use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD
while curl is. Just a thought.
>>
Rahul
>>
>>
>>
- ------------------------------
>>
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:01:54 +0200
From: Basil Mohamed Gohar 
Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
To: For participants of the Documentation Project
	
Message-ID: <1231131714.3714.7.camel at localhost.localdomain>
Content-Type: text/plain
>>
On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
>>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
>>> while curl is. Just a thought.
>>>
>>> Rahul
>>>
I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
(e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
of Fedora)?
>>
________________________________________________________________________
>>
Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
>>
>>
>>
- ------------------------------
>>
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:04:11 -0600
From: Ian Weller 
Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
To: For participants of the Documentation Project
	
Message-ID: <20090105050411.GA3404 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:01:54AM +0200, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
>>>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
>>>> while curl is. Just a thought.
>>>>
>>>> Rahul
>>>>
>>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
>>> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
>>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
>>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
>>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
>>> of Fedora)?
>>>
Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
>>
- --
Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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>>
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:07:10 -0500
From: Matthew Daniels 
Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
To: For participants of the Documentation Project
	
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>
>>>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
>>>> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl,  
>>>> and I
>>>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
>>>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be  
>>>> new
>>>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new  
>>>> installation
>>>> of Fedora)?
>>>>
>>> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
I would think so.  Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if
they'll do that for F11?  I mean... what's the size of wget?  I can't
be more than a few hundred KB.
>>
- - Matthew
>>
>>
>>
- ------------------------------
>>
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:28:57 +0200
From: Basil Mohamed Gohar 
Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
Message-ID: <1231133338.3714.10.camel at localhost.localdomain>
Content-Type: text/plain
>>
On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 23:04 -0600, Ian Weller wrote:
>>> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
I was fearful of making the same suggestion myself, since this is the
Docs list, but that's what I think is best as well.  Frankly, I'm quite
surprised it was never included in the first place.  I actually thought
it was part of the core utilities needed to admin a system.
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________
>>
Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
>>
>>
>>
- ------------------------------
>>
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:35:33 +1000
From: Christopher Curran 
Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
To: For participants of the Documentation Project
	
Message-ID: <49619C25.9020804 at redhat.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
>>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
>>> while curl is. Just a thought.
>>>
>>> Rahul
>>>
Sure I can update future docs if you can point me at the thread where
they decided to drop it.
>>
Chris
>>
>>
>>
- ------------------------------
>>
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:21:13 -0600
From: Ian Weller 
Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
To: For participants of the Documentation Project
	
Message-ID: <20090105062113.GB5608 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 12:07:10AM -0500, Matthew Daniels wrote:
>>> I would think so.  Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if they'll 
>>> do that for F11?  I mean... what's the size of wget?  I can't be more 
>>> than a few hundred KB.
>>>
It's 1.5 MB, according to rpm -qi wget, but the .rpm file itself is
600kB. IIRC, the former would be on the Live distribution, while the
latter is on the mirrors and the install media.
>>
- --
Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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- ------------------------------
>>
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 11:55:15 +0530
From: Rahul Sundaram 
Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
To: For participants of the Documentation Project
	
Message-ID: <4961A7CB.6080704 at fedoraproject.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
>>>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
>>>> while curl is. Just a thought.
>>>>
>>>> Rahul
>>>>
>>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
>>> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
>>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
>>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
>>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
>>> of Fedora)?
The basic usage is simple.
>>
curl 
>>
If you want to suggest wget be (re-)added, that is a fedora-desktop list
discussion.
>>
Rahul
>>
>>
>>
- ------------------------------
>>
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 07:21:57 -0800
From: Karsten Wade 
Subject: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
Message-ID: <20090105152157.GI5819 at calliope.phig.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.
>>
Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
discussions here in advance.
>>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008
>>
Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.
>>
- - Karsten
- --
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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>>
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:37:03 -0500
From: "Paul W. Frields" 
Subject: Re: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
Message-ID: <20090105153703.GQ25582 at localhost.localdomain>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:21:57AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
>>> We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
>>> important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.
>>>
>>> Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
>>> discussions here in advance.
>>>
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008
>>>
>>> Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.
Not trying to be confusing -- on the contrary, making sure I can keep
my schedule clear, be there, and pay attention purely to our meeting.
We're meeting at 1900 UTC / 2:00pm EST / 11:00am PST?
>>
- --
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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- ------------------------------
>>
- --
fedora-docs-list mailing list
fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>>
End of fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 59, Issue 6
***********************************************

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From eric at christensenplace.us  Tue Jan  6 04:36:05 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:36:05 -0500
Subject: Submitting patches or bugs for the Security Guide
Message-ID: <4962DFB5.40805@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

If anyone has any patches or bugs for the Security Guide please submit
them at the Trac site [1].  We'll be using that to maintain a running
record of everything.  Each section and guide has it's own component so
we can make it easier to distribute the work.

Also, if you would like to maintain a particular chapter or section
please let me know and we'll put you in the system.

[1] https://fedorahosted.org/securityguide

Thanks,
Eric Christensen
E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
GPG Key: BD0C14C1

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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan  6 08:00:16 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:00:16 -0800
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <1231108493.3910.472.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090104170034.7EB37619AA3@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231108493.3910.472.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090106080016.GI8094@calliope.phig.org>

On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 11:34:53PM +0100, Magnus Glantz wrote:

> Vendors:
> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide

Just a note for the historical record.  The above content is in fact
the basis for the 'Linux Security Guide' being discussed here.

Just thought it was an ironic reference. ;-D

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan  6 08:06:02 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:06:02 -0800
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <4962DD04.80709@christensenplace.us>
References: <20090105170059.9B5CD8E022A@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231202873.3828.100.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<4962DD04.80709@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <20090106080602.GJ8094@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 11:24:36PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:

> If we are missing something you think should be addressed please feel
> free to develop a chapter.

When Eric discussed the scope of the Security Guide with us on IRC,
this was before the Red Hat content was released and available as an
upstream to draw from.

However, we agreed then and later that it was a good idea to ...

* Include a wide range of security needs in the 'Security Guide'

* Make sure it was applicable to the "average desktop user", the
  "average system administrator", and the "average highly secure
  environment paranoid-for-good-reason professional."

(Eric, is that a fair assessment of the scope?)

That is a challenge, but a good one.

We can always take the larger upstream content and draw more than one
Fedora-focused guide from it, for example ...

* Fedora Home User Security Guide
* Fedora Secure Datacenter Guide
* Etc.

By putting all the content in to one upstream document, it is like the
Linux kernel -- useful for many sizes of hardware and environments.

Fortunately, DocBook XML makes it relatively easy to construct new
guides out of existing XML content by reorganizing and omitting.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan  6 08:12:18 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:12:18 -0800
Subject: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
In-Reply-To: <20090105214320.GC27903@gmail.com>
References: <20090105152157.GI5819@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090105153703.GQ25582@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090105214320.GC27903@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090106081218.GK8094@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 03:43:20PM -0600, Ian Weller wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 10:37:03AM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > Not trying to be confusing -- on the contrary, making sure I can keep
> > my schedule clear, be there, and pay attention purely to our meeting.
> > We're meeting at 1900 UTC / 2:00pm EST / 11:00am PST?
> > 
> I'm in school at this time, for the record. I did want to check and see
> if tehre's anything that FDSCo wanted to make sure I mention in my
> "State of the Wiki" presentation on Saturday.
> 
> I'm planning for it to be about a 15 minute presentation, followed by a
> Q & A.

There are some specific how-to/best practice sort of things that we
want to beat in to people.  Maybe we should just wander from hackfest
to hackfest and ask how people are using the wiki?

* Categories and why they are your friends
* Page renaming is better than garlic
* Etc.

Do you want to have that sort of content in your talk?  I'd really
like to see if we can get a big audience.  How do we draw attention to
the fact that, well, _everyone_ there needs to know this stuff?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan  6 08:50:30 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:50:30 -0800
Subject: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
In-Reply-To: <20090105153703.GQ25582@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090105152157.GI5819@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090105153703.GQ25582@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090106085030.GL8094@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 10:37:03AM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:21:57AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> > We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
> > important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.
> > 
> > Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
> > discussions here in advance.
> > 
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008
> > 
> > Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.
> 
> Not trying to be confusing -- on the contrary, making sure I can keep
> my schedule clear, be there, and pay attention purely to our meeting.
> We're meeting at 1900 UTC / 2:00pm EST / 11:00am PST?

Yes, thanks, forgot to add that important detail.

Sorry if there has been lingering doubt.  Absent a one-size-fits-all
Fedora time scheme, we still use UTC in Docs.  Why not stick with
tradition? :)

It is currently consistent on these pages:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_meeting_channel
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings

*whew*

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From mg at hacka.net  Tue Jan  6 10:33:26 2009
From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:33:26 +0100
Subject: fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 59, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <20090106080021.B379061932D@hormel.redhat.com>
References: <20090106080021.B379061932D@hormel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1231238006.3822.50.camel@localhost.localdomain>

What I feel is perhaps missing is not content, but structure or presentation of content.

This guide seems focused on administrators working in SME or large enterprises.
I guess that would be natural, if the base of the guide is the RHEL Security Guide.. ( Thank you Karsten for pointing this out :-> )

As a new or a not very security interested Fedora user, I would say this guide is much too big and complex to make proper use of.
It's like facing the worlds biggest all-you-can-eat buffet, when you to the best of your knowledge haven't tasted any of the food on display. And on second thought
your too lazy and uninterested of food to try and find the essential good stuff.

What I'm looking for is perhaps a chapter for regular home users with focus on usability rather than security.
People that like Fedora but who doesn't know or care much about security.

"Security for Home Users"

I would volunteer to write such a chapter.

//M

 
tis 2009-01-06 klockan 03:00 -0500 skrev 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:24:36 -0500
> From: Eric Christensen 
> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <4962DD04.80709 at christensenplace.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I agree, in part, with your overview.  A completely secure system is one
> that is unplugged and that isn't exactly useful.  I would dare say that
> you don't want the same level of security as I do or as anyone else
> might which is why it is important to give as much information as
> possible and let people pick and choose what they feel is important to
> their specific needs.
> 
> Case in point, admin A has a server in a cave that is physically highly
> protected.  Disk encryption and securing single user mode might not be
> as important as securing the network connection.  So that admin might
> only care about the VPN, SSH, IPTables, and related chapters and not so
> much on the LUKS Disk Encryption.
> 
> I feel that it is important to give admins and users as much information
> as possible so they can make an educated decision on mitigating their
> systems down to an acceptable level of risk.  Users should know that
> their systems are NOT secure as soon as they install Fedora or any other
> operating system.
> 
> If we are missing something you think should be addressed please feel
> free to develop a chapter.
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric Christensen
> E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> GPG Key: BD0C14C1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Magnus Glantz wrote:
> > This e-mail is about security and user friendliness, and how I think this guide perhaps may be modified into something better.
> > This may also be me misunderstanding the purpose of this guide. Be aware.
> > 
> > I agree that Government Security Agencies and Banks has more to loose than a lot of other people :-)
> > 
> > Last night I couldn't get to sleep, due to my big mouth, so I thought a bit more about the security guide.
> > I guess this guide aims to the users of Fedora. This may be a huuge misconception on my part, but, I though
> > regular home users are the main users of Fedora. So.. this guide should perhaps to be focused on that kind of usage and
> > that kind of knowledge levels.
> > 
> > My experience, working with security in highly secure government/telco environments is that security
> > and ease of use/user friendliness is two most important main counter parts.
> > 
> > On one hand, it's "pretty easy" to make something extremely secure, but extremely secure systems is a total drag to be in
> > - because they are difficult to access, use and communicate to and from, due to all restrictions and security related administration.
> > I believe the standard Fedora user never would want such a system. In a system like that security has compromised to much user friendliness for it to be fun.
> > If security isn't your definition of happy-happy joy-joy :-)
> > 
> > I had a thought that perhaps this guide should mainly not focus on different things that makes a system secure as a bank.
> > Instead perhaps it should focus on covering techniques that allows ones home computer to operate in a secure
> > _and_ user friendly manner.
> > 
> > Here's what I wrote on my phone last night, trying to kill demons of guilt and shame spawned out of my nonconstructive mail yesterday.
> > I tried to sort them in order of positive impact on security weighed against user friendliness.
> > 
> > 1) Keep your system up-to-date.
> > 1.1) Perhaps advocacy that users should prefer "Yum installed software", as it automatically will get updated via Yum.
> > 2) Keep backups of your data.
> > 2.1) Some easy ways of backing up data. Burn on CD/DVD, put on external storage, backup hard drive, etc. S/W recommendations.	
> > 3) Running a firewall.
> > 3.1) Using the shipped Fedora firewall setup tools, enabling the firewall at install.
> > 4) Use SE-Linux
> > 5) Use common sense
> > 5.1 Do not accept unknown stuff/software from unknown people. If a stranger walked up to you in real life and offered you an unidentifiable object.. and you at the same time
> >     constantly heard and read stories of people accepting unidentifiable objects from strangers - finding out the object was a bomb / robotic miniature robber - YOU WOULD RUN AWAY!
> > 5) Do not run server software that you do not use (as web, mail, ftp, nfs or even a ssh server (if it's a desktop))
> > 6) Advanced topics -  Here one may cover more "user unfriendly" stuff for the paranoid government spy user types :-) 
> > 6.1 Encryption of different kinds (files, file systems, e-mail, etc)
> > 6.2 Advanced hardening techniques and tools.
> > 6.3 Advanced auditing techniques and tools
> > 6.4 Security policy and/or paranoid thinking
> > 
> > Some more links.
> > 
> > Organizations:
> > http://www.cert.org/archive/pdf/aia-handbook.pdf
> > http://www.first.org/resources/guides/
> > http://www.sans.org/reading_room/
> > 
> > //M
> > 
> > mn 2009-01-05 klockan 12:00 -0500 
> >> Message: 2
> >> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:23:45 -0500
> >> From: Eric Christensen 
> >> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> >> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> >> 	
> >> Message-ID: <49617D41.5040205 at christensenplace.us>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>
> > Good resources.  Thanks for sending them.  My reasoning for building
> > that part of the Security Guide based on US Government documents and not
> > documents from Universities or commercial sources has a simple
> > explanation.  Government computers HAVE to be secure.  I've seen way too
> > many universities and businesses run a half-way security mindset.  They
> > are too interested in the bottom line than a secure system even though a
> > secure system will help the bottom line in the long run.
> > 
> > The only other industry that I would like to pull from is the banking
> > industry.  They are generally notorious for their secure systems (I'm
> > talking about the larger banks).  They could stand to loose billions of
> > dollars if they are "broken into".  Of course most of the banks make
> > their documentation secret as to not tip off anyone with a possible
> > documented flaw.
> > 
> > I agree that we should be looking at multiple sources and that will come
> > in time.  Please feel free to add information into the guide.  I'll be
> > happy to read any patches that you, or anyone else, has to offer to the
> > guide.  If you have any specific interests, please let me know!
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Eric Christensen
> > E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> > GPG Key: BD0C14C1
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Magnus Glantz wrote:
> >>>> I'm sorry if I came off a bit rude, it wasn't my intent.
> >>>> Also, I'm sorry for not being constructive, I'll try not and e-mail during rush our in the future :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> About a more wide spread flora of security references. My thought was that the more known universities around the world
> >>>> must have written kilometers of papers on Linux Security. Finding freely available papers describing general security on
> >>>> Linux was easier said than done. I found some references during a quick scan this evening.
> >>>>
> >>>> I guess it's a matter of trust. Of course the US Government and the NSA has excellent and trustworthy security people,
> >>>> and that information in this subject is collaborative.. but at least I feel more secure seeing that it's not only
> >>>> the US Government and secret service that approves and advocates the security issues brought out in this security guide.
> >>>>
> >>>> Universities:
> >>>> http://www.princeton.edu/~essweb/linux/linuxsecurity.html
> >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/secure-computing/
> >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/sysadmin/server-guidelines.html
> >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/network/unix.html
> >>>> http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/security/unix-box.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Other:
> >>>> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-HOWTO/
> >>>> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-Quickstart-HOWTO/
> >>>> http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Secure-Programs-HOWTO/open-source-security.html
> >>>> http://www.puschitz.com/SecuringLinux.shtml
> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Security_Modules
> >>>>
> >>>> Vendors:
> >>>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide/
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll try and find some more / better references as soon as I have some more free time.
> >>>>
> >>>> //M
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> sn 2009-01-04 klockan 12:00 -0500 skrev Message: 8
> >>>> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:44:55 -0500
> >>>> From: "Paul W. Frields" 
> >>>> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> >>>> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> >>>> Message-ID: <20090104144455.GB18821 at localhost.localdomain>
> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 09:07:16PM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Magnus Glantz  wrote:
> >>>>>> My 5 as an non US citizen.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost completely
> >>>>>> ripped off published US military/government documents.
> >>>>> I only looked at the English. I was not aware of the origins of the
> >>>> content.
> >>>>> I will be more careful in future.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks! :-)
> >>>> "Ripped off" seems unnecessarily harsh to me, and incorrectly implies
> >>>> that somehow the content was lifted without permission, when in fact
> >>>> the references in question are freely available to everyone (USA
> >>>> domestic or foreign).  The principles embodied in most of those
> >>>> references are fairly universal and you'll find them echoed in most
> >>>> high-level infosec materials.  In fact, some foreign governments use
> >>>> these references themselves.
> >>>>
> >>>> The Security Guide continues to be a collaborative, participatory
> >>>> project, so anyone who is unhappy with the content -- or completely
> >>>> satisfied, too, for that matter -- is free to get involved! :-)  You
> >>>> could start by providing equivalent or comparable non-US references,
> >>>> for example.
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:12:20 +0530
> From: Rahul Sundaram 
> Subject: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <49618FAC.30400 at fedoraproject.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >>
> Hi,
> >>
> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to
> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD
> while curl is. Just a thought.
> >>
> Rahul
> >>
> >>
> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:01:54 +0200
> From: Basil Mohamed Gohar 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <1231131714.3714.7.camel at localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> >>
> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> >>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> >>> while curl is. Just a thought.
> >>>
> >>> Rahul
> >>>
> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
> of Fedora)?
> >>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> >>
> Basil Mohamed Gohar
> abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
> www.basilgohar.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:04:11 -0600
> From: Ian Weller 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <20090105050411.GA3404 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>
> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:01:54AM +0200, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> >>>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> >>>> while curl is. Just a thought.
> >>>>
> >>>> Rahul
> >>>>
> >>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> >>> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
> >>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> >>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
> >>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
> >>> of Fedora)?
> >>>
> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
> >>
> - --
> Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
> GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
> "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
>   ~ Douglas Adams
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> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:07:10 -0500
> From: Matthew Daniels 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
> >>
> >>>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> >>>> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl,  
> >>>> and I
> >>>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> >>>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be  
> >>>> new
> >>>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new  
> >>>> installation
> >>>> of Fedora)?
> >>>>
> >>> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
> I would think so.  Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if
> they'll do that for F11?  I mean... what's the size of wget?  I can't
> be more than a few hundred KB.
> >>
> - - Matthew
> >>
> >>
> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:28:57 +0200
> From: Basil Mohamed Gohar 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <1231133338.3714.10.camel at localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> >>
> On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 23:04 -0600, Ian Weller wrote:
> >>> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
> I was fearful of making the same suggestion myself, since this is the
> Docs list, but that's what I think is best as well.  Frankly, I'm quite
> surprised it was never included in the first place.  I actually thought
> it was part of the core utilities needed to admin a system.
> >>
> >>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> >>
> Basil Mohamed Gohar
> abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
> www.basilgohar.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:35:33 +1000
> From: Christopher Curran 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <49619C25.9020804 at redhat.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >>
> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> >>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> >>> while curl is. Just a thought.
> >>>
> >>> Rahul
> >>>
> Sure I can update future docs if you can point me at the thread where
> they decided to drop it.
> >>
> Chris
> >>
> >>
> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:21:13 -0600
> From: Ian Weller 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <20090105062113.GB5608 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>
> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 12:07:10AM -0500, Matthew Daniels wrote:
> >>> I would think so.  Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if they'll 
> >>> do that for F11?  I mean... what's the size of wget?  I can't be more 
> >>> than a few hundred KB.
> >>>
> It's 1.5 MB, according to rpm -qi wget, but the .rpm file itself is
> 600kB. IIRC, the former would be on the Live distribution, while the
> latter is on the mirrors and the install media.
> >>
> - --
> Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
> GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
> "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
>   ~ Douglas Adams
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> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 11:55:15 +0530
> From: Rahul Sundaram 
> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> 	
> Message-ID: <4961A7CB.6080704 at fedoraproject.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >>
> Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> >>>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> >>>> while curl is. Just a thought.
> >>>>
> >>>> Rahul
> >>>>
> >>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> >>> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
> >>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> >>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
> >>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
> >>> of Fedora)?
> The basic usage is simple.
> >>
> curl 
> >>
> If you want to suggest wget be (re-)added, that is a fedora-desktop list
> discussion.
> >>
> Rahul
> >>
> >>
> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 07:21:57 -0800
> From: Karsten Wade 
> Subject: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <20090105152157.GI5819 at calliope.phig.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>
> We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
> important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.
> >>
> Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
> discussions here in advance.
> >>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008
> >>
> Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.
> >>
> - - Karsten
> - --
> Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
> http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
> AD0E0C41
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> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:37:03 -0500
> From: "Paul W. Frields" 
> Subject: Re: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <20090105153703.GQ25582 at localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>
> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:21:57AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> >>> We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
> >>> important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.
> >>>
> >>> Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
> >>> discussions here in advance.
> >>>
> >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008
> >>>
> >>> Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.
> Not trying to be confusing -- on the contrary, making sure I can keep
> my schedule clear, be there, and pay attention purely to our meeting.
> We're meeting at 1900 UTC / 2:00pm EST / 11:00am PST?
> >>
> - --
> Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
>   gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
>   http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
>   irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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> >>
> - ------------------------------
> >>
> - --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> >>
> End of fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 59, Issue 6
> ***********************************************
> 
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:36:05 -0500
> From: Eric Christensen 
> Subject: Submitting patches or bugs for the Security Guide
> To: security-guide-list at redhat.com,	Fedora Docs List
> 	
> Message-ID: <4962DFB5.40805 at christensenplace.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> If anyone has any patches or bugs for the Security Guide please submit
> them at the Trac site [1].  We'll be using that to maintain a running
> record of everything.  Each section and guide has it's own component so
> we can make it easier to distribute the work.
> 
> Also, if you would like to maintain a particular chapter or section
> please let me know and we'll put you in the system.
> 
> [1] https://fedorahosted.org/securityguide
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric Christensen
> E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> GPG Key: BD0C14C1
> 
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:00:16 -0800
> From: Karsten Wade 
> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <20090106080016.GI8094 at calliope.phig.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 11:34:53PM +0100, Magnus Glantz wrote:
> 
> > Vendors:
> > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide
> 
> Just a note for the historical record.  The above content is in fact
> the basis for the 'Linux Security Guide' being discussed here.
> 
> Just thought it was an ironic reference. ;-D
> 
> - Karsten



From mg at hacka.net  Tue Jan  6 13:35:30 2009
From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:35:30 +0100
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <1231238006.3822.50.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090106080021.B379061932D@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231238006.3822.50.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1231248930.3822.54.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Correctional double-post! I mailed using the wrong subject, this is the
correct one.

What I feel is missing is perhaps not content, but structure or
presentation of content.

This guide seems focused on administrators working in SME or large
enterprises.
I guess that would be natural, if the base of the guide is the RHEL
Security Guide.. ( Thank you Karsten for pointing this out :-> )

As a new or a not very security interested Fedora user, I would say this
guide is much too big and complex to make proper use of.
It's like facing the worlds biggest all-you-can-eat buffet, when you to
the best of your knowledge haven't tasted any of the food on display.
And on second thought
your too lazy and uninterested of food to try and find the essential
good stuff.

What I'm looking for is perhaps a chapter for regular home users with
focus on usability rather than security.
People that like Fedora but who doesn't know or care much about
security.

"Security for Home Users"

I would volunteer to write such a chapter.

//M

tis 2009-01-06 klockan 03:00 -0500 skrev 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:24:36 -0500
> From: Eric Christensen 
> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
>       
> Message-ID: <4962DD04.80709 at christensenplace.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I agree, in part, with your overview.  A completely secure system is
one
> that is unplugged and that isn't exactly useful.  I would dare say
that
> you don't want the same level of security as I do or as anyone else
> might which is why it is important to give as much information as
> possible and let people pick and choose what they feel is important to
> their specific needs.
> 
> Case in point, admin A has a server in a cave that is physically
highly
> protected.  Disk encryption and securing single user mode might not be
> as important as securing the network connection.  So that admin might
> only care about the VPN, SSH, IPTables, and related chapters and not
so
> much on the LUKS Disk Encryption.
> 
> I feel that it is important to give admins and users as much
information
> as possible so they can make an educated decision on mitigating their
> systems down to an acceptable level of risk.  Users should know that
> their systems are NOT secure as soon as they install Fedora or any
other
> operating system.
> 
> If we are missing something you think should be addressed please feel
> free to develop a chapter.
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric Christensen
> E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> GPG Key: BD0C14C1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Magnus Glantz wrote:
> > This e-mail is about security and user friendliness, and how I think
this guide perhaps may be modified into something better.
> > This may also be me misunderstanding the purpose of this guide. Be
aware.
> > 
> > I agree that Government Security Agencies and Banks has more to
loose than a lot of other people :-)
> > 
> > Last night I couldn't get to sleep, due to my big mouth, so I
thought a bit more about the security guide.
> > I guess this guide aims to the users of Fedora. This may be a huuge
misconception on my part, but, I though
> > regular home users are the main users of Fedora. So.. this guide
should perhaps to be focused on that kind of usage and
> > that kind of knowledge levels.
> > 
> > My experience, working with security in highly secure
government/telco environments is that security
> > and ease of use/user friendliness is two most important main counter
parts.
> > 
> > On one hand, it's "pretty easy" to make something extremely secure,
but extremely secure systems is a total drag to be in
> > - because they are difficult to access, use and communicate to and
from, due to all restrictions and security related administration.
> > I believe the standard Fedora user never would want such a system.
In a system like that security has compromised to much user friendliness
for it to be fun.
> > If security isn't your definition of happy-happy joy-joy :-)
> > 
> > I had a thought that perhaps this guide should mainly not focus on
different things that makes a system secure as a bank.
> > Instead perhaps it should focus on covering techniques that allows
ones home computer to operate in a secure
> > _and_ user friendly manner.
> > 
> > Here's what I wrote on my phone last night, trying to kill demons of
guilt and shame spawned out of my nonconstructive mail yesterday.
> > I tried to sort them in order of positive impact on security weighed
against user friendliness.
> > 
> > 1) Keep your system up-to-date.
> > 1.1) Perhaps advocacy that users should prefer "Yum installed
software", as it automatically will get updated via Yum.
> > 2) Keep backups of your data.
> > 2.1) Some easy ways of backing up data. Burn on CD/DVD, put on
external storage, backup hard drive, etc. S/W recommendations.       
> > 3) Running a firewall.
> > 3.1) Using the shipped Fedora firewall setup tools, enabling the
firewall at install.
> > 4) Use SE-Linux
> > 5) Use common sense
> > 5.1 Do not accept unknown stuff/software from unknown people. If a
stranger walked up to you in real life and offered you an unidentifiable
object.. and you at the same time
> >     constantly heard and read stories of people accepting
unidentifiable objects from strangers - finding out the object was a
bomb / robotic miniature robber - YOU WOULD RUN AWAY!
> > 5) Do not run server software that you do not use (as web, mail,
ftp, nfs or even a ssh server (if it's a desktop))
> > 6) Advanced topics -  Here one may cover more "user unfriendly"
stuff for the paranoid government spy user types :-) 
> > 6.1 Encryption of different kinds (files, file systems, e-mail, etc)
> > 6.2 Advanced hardening techniques and tools.
> > 6.3 Advanced auditing techniques and tools
> > 6.4 Security policy and/or paranoid thinking
> > 
> > Some more links.
> > 
> > Organizations:
> > http://www.cert.org/archive/pdf/aia-handbook.pdf
> > http://www.first.org/resources/guides/
> > http://www.sans.org/reading_room/
> > 
> > //M
> > 
> > mn 2009-01-05 klockan 12:00 -0500 
> >> Message: 2
> >> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:23:45 -0500
> >> From: Eric Christensen 
> >> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> >> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> >>    
> >> Message-ID: <49617D41.5040205 at christensenplace.us>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>
> > Good resources.  Thanks for sending them.  My reasoning for building
> > that part of the Security Guide based on US Government documents and
not
> > documents from Universities or commercial sources has a simple
> > explanation.  Government computers HAVE to be secure.  I've seen way
too
> > many universities and businesses run a half-way security mindset.
They
> > are too interested in the bottom line than a secure system even
though a
> > secure system will help the bottom line in the long run.
> > 
> > The only other industry that I would like to pull from is the
banking
> > industry.  They are generally notorious for their secure systems
(I'm
> > talking about the larger banks).  They could stand to loose billions
of
> > dollars if they are "broken into".  Of course most of the banks make
> > their documentation secret as to not tip off anyone with a possible
> > documented flaw.
> > 
> > I agree that we should be looking at multiple sources and that will
come
> > in time.  Please feel free to add information into the guide.  I'll
be
> > happy to read any patches that you, or anyone else, has to offer to
the
> > guide.  If you have any specific interests, please let me know!
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Eric Christensen
> > E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> > GPG Key: BD0C14C1
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Magnus Glantz wrote:
> >>>> I'm sorry if I came off a bit rude, it wasn't my intent.
> >>>> Also, I'm sorry for not being constructive, I'll try not and
e-mail during rush our in the future :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> About a more wide spread flora of security references. My thought
was that the more known universities around the world
> >>>> must have written kilometers of papers on Linux Security. Finding
freely available papers describing general security on
> >>>> Linux was easier said than done. I found some references during a
quick scan this evening.
> >>>>
> >>>> I guess it's a matter of trust. Of course the US Government and
the NSA has excellent and trustworthy security people,
> >>>> and that information in this subject is collaborative.. but at
least I feel more secure seeing that it's not only
> >>>> the US Government and secret service that approves and advocates
the security issues brought out in this security guide.
> >>>>
> >>>> Universities:
> >>>> http://www.princeton.edu/~essweb/linux/linuxsecurity.html
> >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/secure-computing/
> >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/sysadmin/server-guidelines.html
> >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/network/unix.html
> >>>> http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/security/unix-box.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Other:
> >>>> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-HOWTO/
> >>>> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-Quickstart-HOWTO/
> >>>>
http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Secure-Programs-HOWTO/open-source-security.html
> >>>> http://www.puschitz.com/SecuringLinux.shtml
> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Security_Modules
> >>>>
> >>>> Vendors:
> >>>>
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide/
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll try and find some more / better references as soon as I have
some more free time.
> >>>>
> >>>> //M
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> sn 2009-01-04 klockan 12:00 -0500 skrev Message: 8
> >>>> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:44:55 -0500
> >>>> From: "Paul W. Frields" 
> >>>> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> >>>> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> >>>> Message-ID: <20090104144455.GB18821 at localhost.localdomain>
> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 09:07:16PM +1000, Murray McAllister
wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Magnus Glantz 
wrote:
> >>>>>> My 5 as an non US citizen.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost
completely
> >>>>>> ripped off published US military/government documents.
> >>>>> I only looked at the English. I was not aware of the origins of
the
> >>>> content.
> >>>>> I will be more careful in future.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks! :-)
> >>>> "Ripped off" seems unnecessarily harsh to me, and incorrectly
implies
> >>>> that somehow the content was lifted without permission, when in
fact
> >>>> the references in question are freely available to everyone (USA
> >>>> domestic or foreign).  The principles embodied in most of those
> >>>> references are fairly universal and you'll find them echoed in
most
> >>>> high-level infosec materials.  In fact, some foreign governments
use
> >>>> these references themselves.
> >>>>
> >>>> The Security Guide continues to be a collaborative, participatory
> >>>> project, so anyone who is unhappy with the content -- or
completely
> >>>> satisfied, too, for that matter -- is free to get involved! :-)
You
> >>>> could start by providing equivalent or comparable non-US
references,
> >>>> for example.
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>



From mg at hacka.net  Tue Jan  6 13:50:49 2009
From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:50:49 +0100
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <1231238006.3822.50.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090106080021.B379061932D@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231238006.3822.50.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1231249849.3822.56.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I've started writing a draft for such a chapter. I'll get back to you
when I have something to present.

https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Docs/Drafts/SecurityGuide/Security_for_home_users

//M


tis 2009-01-06 klockan 11:33 +0100 skrev Magnus Glantz:
> What I feel is perhaps missing is not content, but structure or presentation of content.
> 
> This guide seems focused on administrators working in SME or large enterprises.
> I guess that would be natural, if the base of the guide is the RHEL Security Guide.. ( Thank you Karsten for pointing this out :-> )
> 
> As a new or a not very security interested Fedora user, I would say this guide is much too big and complex to make proper use of.
> It's like facing the worlds biggest all-you-can-eat buffet, when you to the best of your knowledge haven't tasted any of the food on display. And on second thought
> your too lazy and uninterested of food to try and find the essential good stuff.
> 
> What I'm looking for is perhaps a chapter for regular home users with focus on usability rather than security.
> People that like Fedora but who doesn't know or care much about security.
> 
> "Security for Home Users"
> 
> I would volunteer to write such a chapter.
> 
> //M
> 
>  
> tis 2009-01-06 klockan 03:00 -0500 skrev 
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:24:36 -0500
> > From: Eric Christensen 
> > Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> > To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> > 	
> > Message-ID: <4962DD04.80709 at christensenplace.us>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > I agree, in part, with your overview.  A completely secure system is one
> > that is unplugged and that isn't exactly useful.  I would dare say that
> > you don't want the same level of security as I do or as anyone else
> > might which is why it is important to give as much information as
> > possible and let people pick and choose what they feel is important to
> > their specific needs.
> > 
> > Case in point, admin A has a server in a cave that is physically highly
> > protected.  Disk encryption and securing single user mode might not be
> > as important as securing the network connection.  So that admin might
> > only care about the VPN, SSH, IPTables, and related chapters and not so
> > much on the LUKS Disk Encryption.
> > 
> > I feel that it is important to give admins and users as much information
> > as possible so they can make an educated decision on mitigating their
> > systems down to an acceptable level of risk.  Users should know that
> > their systems are NOT secure as soon as they install Fedora or any other
> > operating system.
> > 
> > If we are missing something you think should be addressed please feel
> > free to develop a chapter.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Eric Christensen
> > E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> > GPG Key: BD0C14C1
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Magnus Glantz wrote:
> > > This e-mail is about security and user friendliness, and how I think this guide perhaps may be modified into something better.
> > > This may also be me misunderstanding the purpose of this guide. Be aware.
> > > 
> > > I agree that Government Security Agencies and Banks has more to loose than a lot of other people :-)
> > > 
> > > Last night I couldn't get to sleep, due to my big mouth, so I thought a bit more about the security guide.
> > > I guess this guide aims to the users of Fedora. This may be a huuge misconception on my part, but, I though
> > > regular home users are the main users of Fedora. So.. this guide should perhaps to be focused on that kind of usage and
> > > that kind of knowledge levels.
> > > 
> > > My experience, working with security in highly secure government/telco environments is that security
> > > and ease of use/user friendliness is two most important main counter parts.
> > > 
> > > On one hand, it's "pretty easy" to make something extremely secure, but extremely secure systems is a total drag to be in
> > > - because they are difficult to access, use and communicate to and from, due to all restrictions and security related administration.
> > > I believe the standard Fedora user never would want such a system. In a system like that security has compromised to much user friendliness for it to be fun.
> > > If security isn't your definition of happy-happy joy-joy :-)
> > > 
> > > I had a thought that perhaps this guide should mainly not focus on different things that makes a system secure as a bank.
> > > Instead perhaps it should focus on covering techniques that allows ones home computer to operate in a secure
> > > _and_ user friendly manner.
> > > 
> > > Here's what I wrote on my phone last night, trying to kill demons of guilt and shame spawned out of my nonconstructive mail yesterday.
> > > I tried to sort them in order of positive impact on security weighed against user friendliness.
> > > 
> > > 1) Keep your system up-to-date.
> > > 1.1) Perhaps advocacy that users should prefer "Yum installed software", as it automatically will get updated via Yum.
> > > 2) Keep backups of your data.
> > > 2.1) Some easy ways of backing up data. Burn on CD/DVD, put on external storage, backup hard drive, etc. S/W recommendations.	
> > > 3) Running a firewall.
> > > 3.1) Using the shipped Fedora firewall setup tools, enabling the firewall at install.
> > > 4) Use SE-Linux
> > > 5) Use common sense
> > > 5.1 Do not accept unknown stuff/software from unknown people. If a stranger walked up to you in real life and offered you an unidentifiable object.. and you at the same time
> > >     constantly heard and read stories of people accepting unidentifiable objects from strangers - finding out the object was a bomb / robotic miniature robber - YOU WOULD RUN AWAY!
> > > 5) Do not run server software that you do not use (as web, mail, ftp, nfs or even a ssh server (if it's a desktop))
> > > 6) Advanced topics -  Here one may cover more "user unfriendly" stuff for the paranoid government spy user types :-) 
> > > 6.1 Encryption of different kinds (files, file systems, e-mail, etc)
> > > 6.2 Advanced hardening techniques and tools.
> > > 6.3 Advanced auditing techniques and tools
> > > 6.4 Security policy and/or paranoid thinking
> > > 
> > > Some more links.
> > > 
> > > Organizations:
> > > http://www.cert.org/archive/pdf/aia-handbook.pdf
> > > http://www.first.org/resources/guides/
> > > http://www.sans.org/reading_room/
> > > 
> > > //M
> > > 
> > > mn 2009-01-05 klockan 12:00 -0500 
> > >> Message: 2
> > >> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:23:45 -0500
> > >> From: Eric Christensen 
> > >> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> > >> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> > >> 	
> > >> Message-ID: <49617D41.5040205 at christensenplace.us>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > >>
> > > Good resources.  Thanks for sending them.  My reasoning for building
> > > that part of the Security Guide based on US Government documents and not
> > > documents from Universities or commercial sources has a simple
> > > explanation.  Government computers HAVE to be secure.  I've seen way too
> > > many universities and businesses run a half-way security mindset.  They
> > > are too interested in the bottom line than a secure system even though a
> > > secure system will help the bottom line in the long run.
> > > 
> > > The only other industry that I would like to pull from is the banking
> > > industry.  They are generally notorious for their secure systems (I'm
> > > talking about the larger banks).  They could stand to loose billions of
> > > dollars if they are "broken into".  Of course most of the banks make
> > > their documentation secret as to not tip off anyone with a possible
> > > documented flaw.
> > > 
> > > I agree that we should be looking at multiple sources and that will come
> > > in time.  Please feel free to add information into the guide.  I'll be
> > > happy to read any patches that you, or anyone else, has to offer to the
> > > guide.  If you have any specific interests, please let me know!
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eric Christensen
> > > E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> > > GPG Key: BD0C14C1
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Magnus Glantz wrote:
> > >>>> I'm sorry if I came off a bit rude, it wasn't my intent.
> > >>>> Also, I'm sorry for not being constructive, I'll try not and e-mail during rush our in the future :-)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> About a more wide spread flora of security references. My thought was that the more known universities around the world
> > >>>> must have written kilometers of papers on Linux Security. Finding freely available papers describing general security on
> > >>>> Linux was easier said than done. I found some references during a quick scan this evening.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I guess it's a matter of trust. Of course the US Government and the NSA has excellent and trustworthy security people,
> > >>>> and that information in this subject is collaborative.. but at least I feel more secure seeing that it's not only
> > >>>> the US Government and secret service that approves and advocates the security issues brought out in this security guide.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Universities:
> > >>>> http://www.princeton.edu/~essweb/linux/linuxsecurity.html
> > >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/secure-computing/
> > >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/sysadmin/server-guidelines.html
> > >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/network/unix.html
> > >>>> http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/security/unix-box.html
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Other:
> > >>>> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-HOWTO/
> > >>>> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-Quickstart-HOWTO/
> > >>>> http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Secure-Programs-HOWTO/open-source-security.html
> > >>>> http://www.puschitz.com/SecuringLinux.shtml
> > >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Security_Modules
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Vendors:
> > >>>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide/
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'll try and find some more / better references as soon as I have some more free time.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> //M
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> sn 2009-01-04 klockan 12:00 -0500 skrev Message: 8
> > >>>> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:44:55 -0500
> > >>>> From: "Paul W. Frields" 
> > >>>> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> > >>>> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > >>>> Message-ID: <20090104144455.GB18821 at localhost.localdomain>
> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 09:07:16PM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> > >>>>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Magnus Glantz  wrote:
> > >>>>>> My 5 as an non US citizen.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost completely
> > >>>>>> ripped off published US military/government documents.
> > >>>>> I only looked at the English. I was not aware of the origins of the
> > >>>> content.
> > >>>>> I will be more careful in future.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks! :-)
> > >>>> "Ripped off" seems unnecessarily harsh to me, and incorrectly implies
> > >>>> that somehow the content was lifted without permission, when in fact
> > >>>> the references in question are freely available to everyone (USA
> > >>>> domestic or foreign).  The principles embodied in most of those
> > >>>> references are fairly universal and you'll find them echoed in most
> > >>>> high-level infosec materials.  In fact, some foreign governments use
> > >>>> these references themselves.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The Security Guide continues to be a collaborative, participatory
> > >>>> project, so anyone who is unhappy with the content -- or completely
> > >>>> satisfied, too, for that matter -- is free to get involved! :-)  You
> > >>>> could start by providing equivalent or comparable non-US references,
> > >>>> for example.
> > >>>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > - ------------------------------
> > >>
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:12:20 +0530
> > From: Rahul Sundaram 
> > Subject: curl instead of wget
> > To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> > 	
> > Message-ID: <49618FAC.30400 at fedoraproject.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> > >>
> > Hi,
> > >>
> > In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to
> > use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD
> > while curl is. Just a thought.
> > >>
> > Rahul
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > - ------------------------------
> > >>
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:01:54 +0200
> > From: Basil Mohamed Gohar 
> > Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> > To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> > 	
> > Message-ID: <1231131714.3714.7.camel at localhost.localdomain>
> > Content-Type: text/plain
> > >>
> > On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> > >>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> > >>> while curl is. Just a thought.
> > >>>
> > >>> Rahul
> > >>>
> > I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> > LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
> > must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> > straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
> > (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
> > of Fedora)?
> > >>
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > >>
> > Basil Mohamed Gohar
> > abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
> > www.basilgohar.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > - ------------------------------
> > >>
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:04:11 -0600
> > From: Ian Weller 
> > Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> > To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> > 	
> > Message-ID: <20090105050411.GA3404 at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >>
> > On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:01:54AM +0200, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > >>> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > >>>> Hi,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> > >>>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> > >>>> while curl is. Just a thought.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Rahul
> > >>>>
> > >>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> > >>> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
> > >>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> > >>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
> > >>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
> > >>> of Fedora)?
> > >>>
> > Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
> > >>
> > - --
> > Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
> > GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
> > "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
> >   ~ Douglas Adams
> > - -------------- next part --------------
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: not available
> > Type: application/pgp-signature
> > Size: 197 bytes
> > Desc: not available
> > Url :
> > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/attachments/20090104/db4785c8/attachment.bin
> > >>
> > - ------------------------------
> > >>
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:07:10 -0500
> > From: Matthew Daniels 
> > Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> > To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> > 	
> > Message-ID: 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
> > >>
> > >>>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> > >>>> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl,  
> > >>>> and I
> > >>>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> > >>>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be  
> > >>>> new
> > >>>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new  
> > >>>> installation
> > >>>> of Fedora)?
> > >>>>
> > >>> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
> > I would think so.  Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if
> > they'll do that for F11?  I mean... what's the size of wget?  I can't
> > be more than a few hundred KB.
> > >>
> > - - Matthew
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > - ------------------------------
> > >>
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:28:57 +0200
> > From: Basil Mohamed Gohar 
> > Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> > To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > Message-ID: <1231133338.3714.10.camel at localhost.localdomain>
> > Content-Type: text/plain
> > >>
> > On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 23:04 -0600, Ian Weller wrote:
> > >>> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default?
> > I was fearful of making the same suggestion myself, since this is the
> > Docs list, but that's what I think is best as well.  Frankly, I'm quite
> > surprised it was never included in the first place.  I actually thought
> > it was part of the core utilities needed to admin a system.
> > >>
> > >>
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > >>
> > Basil Mohamed Gohar
> > abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
> > www.basilgohar.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > - ------------------------------
> > >>
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:35:33 +1000
> > From: Christopher Curran 
> > Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> > To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> > 	
> > Message-ID: <49619C25.9020804 at redhat.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> > >>
> > Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> > >>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> > >>> while curl is. Just a thought.
> > >>>
> > >>> Rahul
> > >>>
> > Sure I can update future docs if you can point me at the thread where
> > they decided to drop it.
> > >>
> > Chris
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > - ------------------------------
> > >>
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:21:13 -0600
> > From: Ian Weller 
> > Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> > To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> > 	
> > Message-ID: <20090105062113.GB5608 at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >>
> > On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 12:07:10AM -0500, Matthew Daniels wrote:
> > >>> I would think so.  Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if they'll 
> > >>> do that for F11?  I mean... what's the size of wget?  I can't be more 
> > >>> than a few hundred KB.
> > >>>
> > It's 1.5 MB, according to rpm -qi wget, but the .rpm file itself is
> > 600kB. IIRC, the former would be on the Live distribution, while the
> > latter is on the mirrors and the install media.
> > >>
> > - --
> > Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
> > GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
> > "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
> >   ~ Douglas Adams
> > - -------------- next part --------------
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> > Url :
> > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/attachments/20090105/cb59213d/attachment.bin
> > >>
> > - ------------------------------
> > >>
> > Message: 10
> > Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 11:55:15 +0530
> > From: Rahul Sundaram 
> > Subject: Re: curl instead of wget
> > To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> > 	
> > Message-ID: <4961A7CB.6080704 at fedoraproject.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> > >>
> > Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > >>> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > >>>> Hi,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to 
> > >>>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD 
> > >>>> while curl is. Just a thought.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Rahul
> > >>>>
> > >>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10
> > >>> LiveCD, so I can relate.  However, I've no experience with curl, and I
> > >>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating.  Is it as
> > >>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new
> > >>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation
> > >>> of Fedora)?
> > The basic usage is simple.
> > >>
> > curl 
> > >>
> > If you want to suggest wget be (re-)added, that is a fedora-desktop list
> > discussion.
> > >>
> > Rahul
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > - ------------------------------
> > >>
> > Message: 11
> > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 07:21:57 -0800
> > From: Karsten Wade 
> > Subject: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
> > To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > Message-ID: <20090105152157.GI5819 at calliope.phig.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >>
> > We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
> > important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.
> > >>
> > Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
> > discussions here in advance.
> > >>
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008
> > >>
> > Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.
> > >>
> > - - Karsten
> > - --
> > Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
> > http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
> > AD0E0C41
> > - -------------- next part --------------
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> > >>
> > - ------------------------------
> > >>
> > Message: 12
> > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:37:03 -0500
> > From: "Paul W. Frields" 
> > Subject: Re: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
> > To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > Message-ID: <20090105153703.GQ25582 at localhost.localdomain>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >>
> > On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:21:57AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> > >>> We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
> > >>> important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.
> > >>>
> > >>> Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
> > >>> discussions here in advance.
> > >>>
> > >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008
> > >>>
> > >>> Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.
> > Not trying to be confusing -- on the contrary, making sure I can keep
> > my schedule clear, be there, and pay attention purely to our meeting.
> > We're meeting at 1900 UTC / 2:00pm EST / 11:00am PST?
> > >>
> > - --
> > Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
> >   gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
> >   http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
> >   irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
> > - -------------- next part --------------
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> > >>
> > - ------------------------------
> > >>
> > - --
> > fedora-docs-list mailing list
> > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> > >>
> > End of fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 59, Issue 6
> > ***********************************************
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:36:05 -0500
> > From: Eric Christensen 
> > Subject: Submitting patches or bugs for the Security Guide
> > To: security-guide-list at redhat.com,	Fedora Docs List
> > 	
> > Message-ID: <4962DFB5.40805 at christensenplace.us>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > If anyone has any patches or bugs for the Security Guide please submit
> > them at the Trac site [1].  We'll be using that to maintain a running
> > record of everything.  Each section and guide has it's own component so
> > we can make it easier to distribute the work.
> > 
> > Also, if you would like to maintain a particular chapter or section
> > please let me know and we'll put you in the system.
> > 
> > [1] https://fedorahosted.org/securityguide
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Eric Christensen
> > E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> > GPG Key: BD0C14C1
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> > =8nP4
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:00:16 -0800
> > From: Karsten Wade 
> > Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> > To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > Message-ID: <20090106080016.GI8094 at calliope.phig.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > 
> > On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 11:34:53PM +0100, Magnus Glantz wrote:
> > 
> > > Vendors:
> > > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide
> > 
> > Just a note for the historical record.  The above content is in fact
> > the basis for the 'Linux Security Guide' being discussed here.
> > 
> > Just thought it was an ironic reference. ;-D
> > 
> > - Karsten



From eric at christensenplace.us  Tue Jan  6 15:04:51 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:04:51 -0500
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <1231248930.3822.54.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090106080021.B379061932D@hormel.redhat.com>	<1231238006.3822.50.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1231248930.3822.54.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49637313.9050903@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The General Principles page was supposed to address what you have asked
about.  It is a general overview of security and includes basic items
that people should understand.

That was written before the Red Hat information was pushed up so a lot
of what is in the General Principles is also spread around the Red Hat
information.  I'm going to work on making sure all the information is
accounted for and then clean up what is left.  That is going to be a
major portion of what needs to be merged.  After that is completed I'll
be able to really look at structure and such.

- - Eric

Magnus Glantz wrote:
> Correctional double-post! I mailed using the wrong subject, this is the
> correct one.
> 
> What I feel is missing is perhaps not content, but structure or
> presentation of content.
> 
> This guide seems focused on administrators working in SME or large
> enterprises.
> I guess that would be natural, if the base of the guide is the RHEL
> Security Guide.. ( Thank you Karsten for pointing this out :-> )
> 
> As a new or a not very security interested Fedora user, I would say this
> guide is much too big and complex to make proper use of.
> It's like facing the worlds biggest all-you-can-eat buffet, when you to
> the best of your knowledge haven't tasted any of the food on display.
> And on second thought
> your too lazy and uninterested of food to try and find the essential
> good stuff.
> 
> What I'm looking for is perhaps a chapter for regular home users with
> focus on usability rather than security.
> People that like Fedora but who doesn't know or care much about
> security.
> 
> "Security for Home Users"
> 
> I would volunteer to write such a chapter.
> 
> //M
> 
> tis 2009-01-06 klockan 03:00 -0500 skrev 
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:24:36 -0500
>> From: Eric Christensen 
>> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
>> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
>>       
>> Message-ID: <4962DD04.80709 at christensenplace.us>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> I agree, in part, with your overview.  A completely secure system is
> one
>> that is unplugged and that isn't exactly useful.  I would dare say
> that
>> you don't want the same level of security as I do or as anyone else
>> might which is why it is important to give as much information as
>> possible and let people pick and choose what they feel is important to
>> their specific needs.
>>
>> Case in point, admin A has a server in a cave that is physically
> highly
>> protected.  Disk encryption and securing single user mode might not be
>> as important as securing the network connection.  So that admin might
>> only care about the VPN, SSH, IPTables, and related chapters and not
> so
>> much on the LUKS Disk Encryption.
>>
>> I feel that it is important to give admins and users as much
> information
>> as possible so they can make an educated decision on mitigating their
>> systems down to an acceptable level of risk.  Users should know that
>> their systems are NOT secure as soon as they install Fedora or any
> other
>> operating system.
>>
>> If we are missing something you think should be addressed please feel
>> free to develop a chapter.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Eric Christensen
>> E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
>> GPG Key: BD0C14C1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Magnus Glantz wrote:
>>> This e-mail is about security and user friendliness, and how I think
> this guide perhaps may be modified into something better.
>>> This may also be me misunderstanding the purpose of this guide. Be
> aware.
>>> I agree that Government Security Agencies and Banks has more to
> loose than a lot of other people :-)
>>> Last night I couldn't get to sleep, due to my big mouth, so I
> thought a bit more about the security guide.
>>> I guess this guide aims to the users of Fedora. This may be a huuge
> misconception on my part, but, I though
>>> regular home users are the main users of Fedora. So.. this guide
> should perhaps to be focused on that kind of usage and
>>> that kind of knowledge levels.
>>>
>>> My experience, working with security in highly secure
> government/telco environments is that security
>>> and ease of use/user friendliness is two most important main counter
> parts.
>>> On one hand, it's "pretty easy" to make something extremely secure,
> but extremely secure systems is a total drag to be in
>>> - because they are difficult to access, use and communicate to and
> from, due to all restrictions and security related administration.
>>> I believe the standard Fedora user never would want such a system.
> In a system like that security has compromised to much user friendliness
> for it to be fun.
>>> If security isn't your definition of happy-happy joy-joy :-)
>>>
>>> I had a thought that perhaps this guide should mainly not focus on
> different things that makes a system secure as a bank.
>>> Instead perhaps it should focus on covering techniques that allows
> ones home computer to operate in a secure
>>> _and_ user friendly manner.
>>>
>>> Here's what I wrote on my phone last night, trying to kill demons of
> guilt and shame spawned out of my nonconstructive mail yesterday.
>>> I tried to sort them in order of positive impact on security weighed
> against user friendliness.
>>> 1) Keep your system up-to-date.
>>> 1.1) Perhaps advocacy that users should prefer "Yum installed
> software", as it automatically will get updated via Yum.
>>> 2) Keep backups of your data.
>>> 2.1) Some easy ways of backing up data. Burn on CD/DVD, put on
> external storage, backup hard drive, etc. S/W recommendations.       
>>> 3) Running a firewall.
>>> 3.1) Using the shipped Fedora firewall setup tools, enabling the
> firewall at install.
>>> 4) Use SE-Linux
>>> 5) Use common sense
>>> 5.1 Do not accept unknown stuff/software from unknown people. If a
> stranger walked up to you in real life and offered you an unidentifiable
> object.. and you at the same time
>>>     constantly heard and read stories of people accepting
> unidentifiable objects from strangers - finding out the object was a
> bomb / robotic miniature robber - YOU WOULD RUN AWAY!
>>> 5) Do not run server software that you do not use (as web, mail,
> ftp, nfs or even a ssh server (if it's a desktop))
>>> 6) Advanced topics -  Here one may cover more "user unfriendly"
> stuff for the paranoid government spy user types :-) 
>>> 6.1 Encryption of different kinds (files, file systems, e-mail, etc)
>>> 6.2 Advanced hardening techniques and tools.
>>> 6.3 Advanced auditing techniques and tools
>>> 6.4 Security policy and/or paranoid thinking
>>>
>>> Some more links.
>>>
>>> Organizations:
>>> http://www.cert.org/archive/pdf/aia-handbook.pdf
>>> http://www.first.org/resources/guides/
>>> http://www.sans.org/reading_room/
>>>
>>> //M
>>>
>>> mn 2009-01-05 klockan 12:00 -0500 
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:23:45 -0500
>>>> From: Eric Christensen 
>>>> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
>>>> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
>>>>    
>>>> Message-ID: <49617D41.5040205 at christensenplace.us>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>
>>> Good resources.  Thanks for sending them.  My reasoning for building
>>> that part of the Security Guide based on US Government documents and
> not
>>> documents from Universities or commercial sources has a simple
>>> explanation.  Government computers HAVE to be secure.  I've seen way
> too
>>> many universities and businesses run a half-way security mindset.
> They
>>> are too interested in the bottom line than a secure system even
> though a
>>> secure system will help the bottom line in the long run.
>>>
>>> The only other industry that I would like to pull from is the
> banking
>>> industry.  They are generally notorious for their secure systems
> (I'm
>>> talking about the larger banks).  They could stand to loose billions
> of
>>> dollars if they are "broken into".  Of course most of the banks make
>>> their documentation secret as to not tip off anyone with a possible
>>> documented flaw.
>>>
>>> I agree that we should be looking at multiple sources and that will
> come
>>> in time.  Please feel free to add information into the guide.  I'll
> be
>>> happy to read any patches that you, or anyone else, has to offer to
> the
>>> guide.  If you have any specific interests, please let me know!
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Eric Christensen
>>> E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
>>> GPG Key: BD0C14C1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Magnus Glantz wrote:
>>>>>> I'm sorry if I came off a bit rude, it wasn't my intent.
>>>>>> Also, I'm sorry for not being constructive, I'll try not and
> e-mail during rush our in the future :-)
>>>>>> About a more wide spread flora of security references. My thought
> was that the more known universities around the world
>>>>>> must have written kilometers of papers on Linux Security. Finding
> freely available papers describing general security on
>>>>>> Linux was easier said than done. I found some references during a
> quick scan this evening.
>>>>>> I guess it's a matter of trust. Of course the US Government and
> the NSA has excellent and trustworthy security people,
>>>>>> and that information in this subject is collaborative.. but at
> least I feel more secure seeing that it's not only
>>>>>> the US Government and secret service that approves and advocates
> the security issues brought out in this security guide.
>>>>>> Universities:
>>>>>> http://www.princeton.edu/~essweb/linux/linuxsecurity.html
>>>>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/secure-computing/
>>>>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/sysadmin/server-guidelines.html
>>>>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/network/unix.html
>>>>>> http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/security/unix-box.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other:
>>>>>> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-HOWTO/
>>>>>> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-Quickstart-HOWTO/
>>>>>>
> http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Secure-Programs-HOWTO/open-source-security.html
>>>>>> http://www.puschitz.com/SecuringLinux.shtml
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Security_Modules
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vendors:
>>>>>>
> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide/
>>>>>> I'll try and find some more / better references as soon as I have
> some more free time.
>>>>>> //M
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sn 2009-01-04 klockan 12:00 -0500 skrev Message: 8
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:44:55 -0500
>>>>>> From: "Paul W. Frields" 
>>>>>> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
>>>>>> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
>>>>>> Message-ID: <20090104144455.GB18821 at localhost.localdomain>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 09:07:16PM +1000, Murray McAllister
> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Magnus Glantz 
> wrote:
>>>>>>>> My 5 as an non US citizen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost
> completely
>>>>>>>> ripped off published US military/government documents.
>>>>>>> I only looked at the English. I was not aware of the origins of
> the
>>>>>> content.
>>>>>>> I will be more careful in future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks! :-)
>>>>>> "Ripped off" seems unnecessarily harsh to me, and incorrectly
> implies
>>>>>> that somehow the content was lifted without permission, when in
> fact
>>>>>> the references in question are freely available to everyone (USA
>>>>>> domestic or foreign).  The principles embodied in most of those
>>>>>> references are fairly universal and you'll find them echoed in
> most
>>>>>> high-level infosec materials.  In fact, some foreign governments
> use
>>>>>> these references themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Security Guide continues to be a collaborative, participatory
>>>>>> project, so anyone who is unhappy with the content -- or
> completely
>>>>>> satisfied, too, for that matter -- is free to get involved! :-)
> You
>>>>>> could start by providing equivalent or comparable non-US
> references,
>>>>>> for example.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
> 
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From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 15:52:14 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:52:14 -0500
Subject: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting
In-Reply-To: <20090106085030.GL8094@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090105152157.GI5819@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090105153703.GQ25582@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090106085030.GL8094@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <20090106155214.GK13045@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 12:50:30AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 10:37:03AM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:21:57AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> > > We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and
> > > important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week.
> > > 
> > > Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon;
> > > discussions here in advance.
> > > 
> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008
> > > 
> > > Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of.
> > 
> > Not trying to be confusing -- on the contrary, making sure I can keep
> > my schedule clear, be there, and pay attention purely to our meeting.
> > We're meeting at 1900 UTC / 2:00pm EST / 11:00am PST?
> 
> Yes, thanks, forgot to add that important detail.
> 
> Sorry if there has been lingering doubt.  Absent a one-size-fits-all
> Fedora time scheme, we still use UTC in Docs.  Why not stick with
> tradition? :)
> 
> It is currently consistent on these pages:
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_meeting_channel
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings
> 
> *whew*

Yup.  Unfortunately, I'll have to split time between this meeting on
IRC and a conference call on the phone where I have some items to
present.  Sorry about that.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From mg at hacka.net  Tue Jan  6 17:01:58 2009
From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:01:58 +0100
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <20090106125109.C860C6195AD@hormel.redhat.com>
References: <20090106125109.C860C6195AD@hormel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1231261318.11277.20.camel@localhost.localdomain>

OK. So..

1) Finishing the Security Guide, including all aspects of security
important for average desktop/system admin/paranoid-for-good-reason
professional.
2) Compile guides focused on specific areas out of the Security Guide.

This may reflect how much I know of DocBook XML content re-use.
But.. I'm thinking there is one concern with this.

It seems to put tough
easy-to-read-and-understand-for-all-knowledge-levels demands on the
Security Guide. I'm thinking this may also be challenging for demands on
prerequisite knowledge. The level of prerequisite knowledge also needs
to be low. Else it might get complicated to re-use components from the
Security Guide when the audience is people that doesn't know or care
much about security.

//M



> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:06:02 -0800
> From: Karsten Wade 
> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID: <20090106080602.GJ8094 at calliope.phig.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 11:24:36PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> 
> > If we are missing something you think should be addressed please feel
> > free to develop a chapter.
> 
> When Eric discussed the scope of the Security Guide with us on IRC,
> this was before the Red Hat content was released and available as an
> upstream to draw from.
> 
> However, we agreed then and later that it was a good idea to ...
> 
> * Include a wide range of security needs in the 'Security Guide'
> 
> * Make sure it was applicable to the "average desktop user", the
>   "average system administrator", and the "average highly secure
>   environment paranoid-for-good-reason professional."
> 
> (Eric, is that a fair assessment of the scope?)
> 
> That is a challenge, but a good one.
> 
> We can always take the larger upstream content and draw more than one
> Fedora-focused guide from it, for example ...
> 
> * Fedora Home User Security Guide
> * Fedora Secure Datacenter Guide
> * Etc.
> 
> By putting all the content in to one upstream document, it is like the
> Linux kernel -- useful for many sizes of hardware and environments.
> 
> Fortunately, DocBook XML makes it relatively easy to construct new
> guides out of existing XML content by reorganizing and omitting.
> 
> - Karsten
> -- 
> Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
> http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
> AD0E0C41
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> 
> ------------------------------




From mg at hacka.net  Tue Jan  6 17:18:45 2009
From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:18:45 +0100
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <1231261318.11277.20.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090106125109.C860C6195AD@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231261318.11277.20.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1231262325.11277.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Just to clarify. I think it's an acceptable challenge to do that. As the
benefits from having re-usable documents for all skill-sets would be
pretty neat.

I've worked with demand management on technical documentation to fit
most skill-sets and I know it's possible to create documentation guiding
almost anyone thru anything. It's just damn hard work :-)
//M

tis 2009-01-06 klockan 18:01 +0100 skrev Magnus Glantz:
> OK. So..
> 
> 1) Finishing the Security Guide, including all aspects of security
> important for average desktop/system admin/paranoid-for-good-reason
> professional.
> 2) Compile guides focused on specific areas out of the Security Guide.
> 
> This may reflect how much I know of DocBook XML content re-use.
> But.. I'm thinking there is one concern with this.
> 
> It seems to put tough
> easy-to-read-and-understand-for-all-knowledge-levels demands on the
> Security Guide. I'm thinking this may also be challenging for demands on
> prerequisite knowledge. The level of prerequisite knowledge also needs
> to be low. Else it might get complicated to re-use components from the
> Security Guide when the audience is people that doesn't know or care
> much about security.
> 
> //M
> 
> 
> 
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:06:02 -0800
> > From: Karsten Wade 
> > Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> > To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > Message-ID: <20090106080602.GJ8094 at calliope.phig.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > 
> > On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 11:24:36PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> > 
> > > If we are missing something you think should be addressed please feel
> > > free to develop a chapter.
> > 
> > When Eric discussed the scope of the Security Guide with us on IRC,
> > this was before the Red Hat content was released and available as an
> > upstream to draw from.
> > 
> > However, we agreed then and later that it was a good idea to ...
> > 
> > * Include a wide range of security needs in the 'Security Guide'
> > 
> > * Make sure it was applicable to the "average desktop user", the
> >   "average system administrator", and the "average highly secure
> >   environment paranoid-for-good-reason professional."
> > 
> > (Eric, is that a fair assessment of the scope?)
> > 
> > That is a challenge, but a good one.
> > 
> > We can always take the larger upstream content and draw more than one
> > Fedora-focused guide from it, for example ...
> > 
> > * Fedora Home User Security Guide
> > * Fedora Secure Datacenter Guide
> > * Etc.
> > 
> > By putting all the content in to one upstream document, it is like the
> > Linux kernel -- useful for many sizes of hardware and environments.
> > 
> > Fortunately, DocBook XML makes it relatively easy to construct new
> > guides out of existing XML content by reorganizing and omitting.
> > 
> > - Karsten
> > -- 
> > Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
> > http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
> > AD0E0C41
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> > 
> > ------------------------------
> 
-- 
Best regards,
Magnus 'magnusg' Glantz
E-mail: mg at hacka.net
GPG Key: 0DB53317





From susan_lists at ties.org  Tue Jan  6 17:36:15 2009
From: susan_lists at ties.org (susan_lists at ties.org)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:36:15 -0500
Subject: User Guide status?
Message-ID: 

Matthew, Betty, et al

What is the status of the user's guide?
I wanted to help more but I haven't gotten a FC9 box put together to run
through fact checking for you. :(

I would like to contribute to the FC10 version though - specifically I would
like to expand on Managing Photos
to include some screen shots and reference some other included software and
options.

Will that be done in the wiki?  Or straight in XML from a git repo?
I'm good with either - just let me know where the FC10 version is located as
soon as you get it moved over.

-Susan

-- 
Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS)
Lauber System Solutions, Inc.
http://www.laubersolutions.com
gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE  4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan  6 17:39:57 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:39:57 -0800
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <1231249849.3822.56.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090106080021.B379061932D@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231238006.3822.50.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1231249849.3822.56.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090106173957.GO8094@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 02:50:49PM +0100, Magnus Glantz wrote:
> I've started writing a draft for such a chapter. I'll get back to you
> when I have something to present.
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Docs/Drafts/SecurityGuide/Security_for_home_users

You probably want to move that to your personal drafting/sandbox space
(User:Magnusg/Security_for_home_users.)  We are not using nested page
structures any longer, and are going to be renaming or archiving
everything in various Docs.* spaces over the next week, including
Docs/Drafts.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From harvey at eccnet.com  Tue Jan  6 17:44:41 2009
From: harvey at eccnet.com (Betty Harvey)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:44:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <53119.207.168.47.25.1231263881.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>

As of Friday, I have converted the available pieces of the Users Guide to
Docbook XML.  I don't know where to upload the files so I still have them.
I created a PDF of the users guide and sent a copy out to the group on
Friday (or Saturday).

When other pieces are completed I will convert those as well.  The
conversion process is pretty smooth now - only occasional minor
tweaks.

I used the standard Docbook XSLT's to create the PDF - it would probably
be worthwhile to run the file through Publican (I don't know where a
copy of that stylesheet resides).

Betty


> Matthew, Betty, et al
>
> What is the status of the user's guide?
> I wanted to help more but I haven't gotten a FC9 box put together to run
> through fact checking for you. :(
>
> I would like to contribute to the FC10 version though - specifically I
> would
> like to expand on Managing Photos
> to include some screen shots and reference some other included software
> and
> options.
>
> Will that be done in the wiki?  Or straight in XML from a git repo?
> I'm good with either - just let me know where the FC10 version is located
> as
> soon as you get it moved over.
>
> -Susan
>
> --
> Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS)
> Lauber System Solutions, Inc.
> http://www.laubersolutions.com
> gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE  4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 410-787-9200 FAX: 9830
Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. |
harvey at eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/xmlug/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan  6 18:34:22 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:34:22 -0800
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 12:36:15PM -0500, susan_lists at ties.org wrote:
> Matthew, Betty, et al
> 
> What is the status of the user's guide?
> I wanted to help more but I haven't gotten a FC9 box put together to run
> through fact checking for you. :(

We're nearly there with the F9, so it might be fine to go ahead with
F10 for you?

Or a virtualized instance might help.

> I would like to contribute to the FC10 version though - specifically I would
> like to expand on Managing Photos
> to include some screen shots and reference some other included software and
> options.

That sounds good, although I'll give you the usual caveat about
screenshots and why we eschew them:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/StyleGuide/FedoraSpecific#Screenshots_and_Images

> Will that be done in the wiki?  Or straight in XML from a git repo?
> I'm good with either - just let me know where the FC10 version is located as
> soon as you get it moved over.

That is a good question that Matthew and others need to think about.
Once the initial F9 User Guide is converted, it might be easier to do
the F10 update directly in XML.

However, history around here has shown that you get a *lot* more
contributors when you draft in the wiki.  If the conversion process
can be brought down to a few hours or so, then doing the work in the
wiki makes more sense -- you get more collaboration, more visibility
in to the work in progress, and so forth.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From susan_lists at ties.org  Tue Jan  6 18:58:03 2009
From: susan_lists at ties.org (susan_lists at ties.org)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:58:03 -0500
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: <20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>
References: 
	<20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Karsten Wade  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 12:36:15PM -0500, susan_lists at ties.org wrote:
> > Matthew, Betty, et al
> >
> > What is the status of the user's guide?
> > I wanted to help more but I haven't gotten a FC9 box put together to run
> > through fact checking for you. :(
>
> We're nearly there with the F9, so it might be fine to go ahead with
> F10 for you?
>
> Or a virtualized instance might help.
>
 Hmm... if I had more memory in that old laptop I've been using. :)
And I found my livecd but only helps with gnome which is mostly done.


>
> > I would like to contribute to the FC10 version though - specifically I
> would
> > like to expand on Managing Photos
> > to include some screen shots and reference some other included software
> and
> > options.
>
> That sounds good, although I'll give you the usual caveat about
> screenshots and why we eschew them:
>
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/StyleGuide/FedoraSpecific#Screenshots_and_Images
>

Fair enough.  A number of other sections should be trimmed of some of the
screenshots too then.
That is something else I can help with in moving to FC10 - update or remove
screenshots in users guide.
[laubersm makes note, welcomes nudges if she forgets]

I do know a lot of users that need encouragement to install and try
something and a screen shot or two often catches their interests.  I will
look into adding a reference to the upstream project's screenshots to
address this need.  The only problem with that is back to version
mismatches.

Also in the middle of a lot of steps screenshots help a new user check that
they got to the correct place. I agree that they are NOT needed for every
step and they are often used too much.


> > Will that be done in the wiki?  Or straight in XML from a git repo?
> > I'm good with either - just let me know where the FC10 version is located
> as
> > soon as you get it moved over.
>
> That is a good question that Matthew and others need to think about.
> Once the initial F9 User Guide is converted, it might be easier to do
> the F10 update directly in XML.
>
> However, history around here has shown that you get a *lot* more
> contributors when you draft in the wiki.  If the conversion process
> can be brought down to a few hours or so, then doing the work in the
> wiki makes more sense -- you get more collaboration, more visibility
> in to the work in progress, and so forth.


+1

I saw a user guide git location
http://git.fedoraproject.org/git/?p=docs/user-guide.git;a=summary
Is this where the XML should go?
I'm new to git - does it get branched under here for FC9 or should it be
named FC9 and a new one for FC10 in parallel?
Where did the FC8 stuff end up?
[laubersm knows she has not been paying attention to all the locations]

-Susan


>
> - Karsten
> --
> Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
> http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
> AD0E0C41
>
>
-- 
Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS)
Lauber System Solutions, Inc.
http://www.laubersolutions.com
gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE  4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974
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From danielsmw at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 19:37:31 2009
From: danielsmw at gmail.com (Matthew Daniels)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:37:31 -0500
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>
	
Message-ID: 

Sorry I haven't jumped in on this email sooner; I've been moving back  
into Clemson today and haven't been near a computer.

>> Will that be done in the wiki?  Or straight in XML from a git repo?
>> I'm good with either - just let me know where the FC10 version is  
>> located as
>> soon as you get it moved over.
>
> That is a good question that Matthew and others need to think about.
> Once the initial F9 User Guide is converted, it might be easier to do
> the F10 update directly in XML.

I say +1 on straight to XML.  Despite the fact that it will have a  
slightly larger learning curve than editing on the wiki, I would love  
to get rid of the conversion process and make sure everything is nice  
right on the XML document.  I think that'll be much cleaner in  
general, especially since everyone will have to be looking at the  
final document (as opposed to everyone writing on the wiki and then a  
specialized conversion team generating the final copy).  I'll have to  
learn just as much (and probably more) than a lot of us to do it this  
way, but I think it's worth it.  Plus, it could get newer team members  
familiar with git and XML so they can help on other docs.

-- Matthew



From harvey at eccnet.com  Tue Jan  6 19:43:03 2009
From: harvey at eccnet.com (Betty Harvey)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:43:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>
	
	
Message-ID: <56904.207.168.47.25.1231270983.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>




> I say +1 on straight to XML.  Despite the fact that it will have a
> slightly larger learning curve than editing on the wiki, I would love
> to get rid of the conversion process and make sure everything is nice
> right on the XML document.  I think that'll be much cleaner in
> general, especially since everyone will have to be looking at the
> final document (as opposed to everyone writing on the wiki and then a
> specialized conversion team generating the final copy).  I'll have to
> learn just as much (and probably more) than a lot of us to do it this
> way, but I think it's worth it.  Plus, it could get newer team members
> familiar with git and XML so they can help on other docs.
>

I agree with going to straight XML.  One of the "gotcha's" that I found
with extracting the data from the WIKI is that it does not extract
warnings, cautions and notes.  As such it required manual intervention.

I am not sure if anyone is willing to move away from the WIKI but Drupal
has a module that allows native XML and rendering via a stylesheet.  I
am using it with a modified version of Docbook and XSLT.  It works great.

Betty

> -- Matthew
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 410-787-9200 FAX: 9830
Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. |
harvey at eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/xmlug/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/



From danielsmw at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 19:47:50 2009
From: danielsmw at gmail.com (Matthew Daniels)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:47:50 -0500
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: <56904.207.168.47.25.1231270983.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
References: 
	<20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>
	
	
	<56904.207.168.47.25.1231270983.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
Message-ID: <68AEB606-AECD-4DEB-BD35-B044F4ED913D@gmail.com>

> I agree with going to straight XML.  One of the "gotcha's" that I  
> found
> with extracting the data from the WIKI is that it does not extract
> warnings, cautions and notes.  As such it required manual  
> intervention.
>
> I am not sure if anyone is willing to move away from the WIKI but  
> Drupal
> has a module that allows native XML and rendering via a stylesheet.  I
> am using it with a modified version of Docbook and XSLT.  It works  
> great.
>
> Betty

Weren't we looking at moving to a new CMS anyway?  That definitely  
sounds like something to look into.

- Matthew



From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Tue Jan  6 20:04:07 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:04:07 -0500
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: <56904.207.168.47.25.1231270983.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
References: 
	<20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>
	
	
	<56904.207.168.47.25.1231270983.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
Message-ID: 

>
> I am not sure if anyone is willing to move away from the WIKI but Drupal
> has a module that allows native XML and rendering via a stylesheet.  I
> am using it with a modified version of Docbook and XSLT.  It works great.
>
> Betty
>

I don't mean to hijack this thread - but we'd really be interested in
talking with you about Drupal as a CMS in general and the DocBook
module specifically.
Any chance you are coming to FUDcon?
(If transportation is an issue we can probably take care of that if
you are relatively close to I-95 - there is the East Coast Road Trip
that has a spot open. (despite what the wiki says)
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon/FUDConF11#East_Coast_Road_Trip_--_CONFIRMED.21



From susan_lists at ties.org  Tue Jan  6 20:05:18 2009
From: susan_lists at ties.org (susan_lists at ties.org)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:05:18 -0500
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: <68AEB606-AECD-4DEB-BD35-B044F4ED913D@gmail.com>
References: 
	<20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>
	
	
	<56904.207.168.47.25.1231270983.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
	<68AEB606-AECD-4DEB-BD35-B044F4ED913D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Matthew Daniels  wrote:

> I agree with going to straight XML.  One of the "gotcha's" that I found
>> with extracting the data from the WIKI is that it does not extract
>> warnings, cautions and notes.  As such it required manual intervention.
>>
>> I am not sure if anyone is willing to move away from the WIKI but Drupal
>> has a module that allows native XML and rendering via a stylesheet.  I
>> am using it with a modified version of Docbook and XSLT.  It works great.
>>
>> Betty
>>
>
> Weren't we looking at moving to a new CMS anyway?  That definitely sounds
> like something to look into.
>
> Hopefully the CMS solution can allow a compromise.
I can work with straight XML and for most docs that is a good plan.

I think that for a UG though, we can get a lot more feedback if it stays in
a wiki.
Remember that the people using the UG are less likely to be experienced or
even interested in CLI but many already know how to edit in a wiki.  We need
the people who use the document to be willing to fix the document.  Even if
they never contribute to other documents.

Once we get to Install guides, deployment guides, security guides and other
such stuff, then submitting bugs and editing xml are more reasonable
expectations.



>
> - Matthew
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS)
Lauber System Solutions, Inc.
http://www.laubersolutions.com
gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE  4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan  6 20:14:23 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:14:23 -0800
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: <53119.207.168.47.25.1231263881.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
References: 
	<53119.207.168.47.25.1231263881.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
Message-ID: <20090106201423.GQ8094@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 12:44:41PM -0500, Betty Harvey wrote:
> As of Friday, I have converted the available pieces of the Users Guide to
> Docbook XML.  I don't know where to upload the files so I still have them.

In coordination with the rest of the User Guide team, you want to
upload them to the git repository.

To start, install git:

  sudo yum install git

Then, clone the repository:

  git clone ssh://@git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/userguide.git

The repository is entirely blank, save for an initiating file (I
think.)

From there you want to install Publican, create a blank book, put that
in the repository, and then start adding your XML files.

  cd userguide/
  sudo yum install publican
  ...
  create_book --name=User_Guide --brand=fedora --lang=en-US --type=Book
  cp /path/to/converted/*.xml User_Guide/en-US/

Using Publican is covered in the Publican guide:

  https://fedorahosted.org/publican

Using git, there are a number of good tutorials.  You can start here:

  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Git_Quickref
  http://book.git-scm.com/index.html

> I created a PDF of the users guide and sent a copy out to the group on
> Friday (or Saturday).
> 
> When other pieces are completed I will convert those as well.  The
> conversion process is pretty smooth now - only occasional minor
> tweaks.

Similarly to the XML, we want to get working code, configurations, and
usage READMEs in to the 'fedora-doc-utils' repository:

  https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-doc-utils/

That way other people can do the conversions, etc.

> I used the standard Docbook XSLT's to create the PDF - it would probably
> be worthwhile to run the file through Publican (I don't know where a
> copy of that stylesheet resides).

  rpm -ql publican|grep xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/CatalogManager.properties
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/changelog.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/defaults.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/docbook.dtd.xml
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/dt_htmlsingle_spec.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/dt_xml_spec.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/eclipse.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/html-single.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/html.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/htmlhelp.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/omf.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/pdf.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/saxon65.jar
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/sub_package_htmlsingle.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/sub_package_xml.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/subtitle.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/txt.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/web-spec.xsl
  /usr/share/publican/xsl/xhtml-common.xsl

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan  6 20:18:27 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:18:27 -0800
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>
	
	
	<56904.207.168.47.25.1231270983.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
	
Message-ID: <20090106201827.GR8094@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 03:04:07PM -0500, David Nalley wrote:
> >
> > I am not sure if anyone is willing to move away from the WIKI but Drupal
> > has a module that allows native XML and rendering via a stylesheet.  I
> > am using it with a modified version of Docbook and XSLT.  It works great.
> >
> > Betty
> >
> 
> I don't mean to hijack this thread - but we'd really be interested in
> talking with you about Drupal as a CMS in general and the DocBook
> module specifically.
> Any chance you are coming to FUDcon?
> (If transportation is an issue we can probably take care of that if
> you are relatively close to I-95 - there is the East Coast Road Trip
> that has a spot open. (despite what the wiki says)
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon/FUDConF11#East_Coast_Road_Trip_--_CONFIRMED.21

I haven't spelled out any CMS plans for FUDCon this weekend, but we
are going to try to get some stuff done during the hackfest.

Drupal is clearly on a short-list for us, for any number of reasons,
such as the rich extensions library.  I wasn't aware of that one, it
is encouraging to hear Betty's enthusiasm for it.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From danielsmw at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 20:19:46 2009
From: danielsmw at gmail.com (Matthew Daniels)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:19:46 -0500
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>
	
	
	<56904.207.168.47.25.1231270983.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
	<68AEB606-AECD-4DEB-BD35-B044F4ED913D@gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <2911F6B7-703D-439D-A750-5C05191E8181@gmail.com>

On Jan 6, 2009, at 3:05 PM, susan_lists at ties.org wrote:
> Hopefully the CMS solution can allow a compromise.
> I can work with straight XML and for most docs that is a good plan.

I think the CMS would work out very well.  As for staying with/leaving  
the wiki, I'm kinda in the middle, but I'm still leaning towards  
leaving it.  You make some good points, but I'm not sure if the small  
advantages we get can weigh up against the advantages of editing right  
in XML.

> I think that for a UG though, we can get a lot more feedback if it  
> stays in a wiki.
> Remember that the people using the UG are less likely to be  
> experienced or even interested in CLI but many already know how to  
> edit in a wiki.  We need the people who use the document to be  
> willing to fix the document.  Even if they never contribute to other  
> documents.

The issue here is that the UG is (as it stands, at least) geared  
toward new users who really haven't used Linux much if at all before.   
They probably - with some exceptions - aren't members of the open  
source community, and probably don't have an FAS account.  And without  
an FAS account, you can't edit the wiki. =)

Although we've been running this in a wiki, I don't think we've  
actually ever made it work like the traditional wiki.  We don't really  
point new Fedora users to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide,  
because that's usually where we work on it; we publish it to XML.  I'm  
fairly confident when I say that virtually nobody except us edits the  
User Guide, with exceptions few and far between.

- Matthew



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan  6 20:29:34 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:29:34 -0800
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: <2911F6B7-703D-439D-A750-5C05191E8181@gmail.com>
References: 
	<20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>
	
	
	<56904.207.168.47.25.1231270983.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
	<68AEB606-AECD-4DEB-BD35-B044F4ED913D@gmail.com>
	
	<2911F6B7-703D-439D-A750-5C05191E8181@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090106202934.GS8094@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 03:19:46PM -0500, Matthew Daniels wrote:
>
> Although we've been running this in a wiki, I don't think we've actually 
> ever made it work like the traditional wiki.  We don't really point new 
> Fedora users to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide, because that's 
> usually where we work on it; we publish it to XML.  I'm fairly confident 
> when I say that virtually nobody except us edits the User Guide, with 
> exceptions few and far between.

You can also tell people who want to contribute but refuse to learn
XML to do the work in the wiki, then do a conversion of just that
content/chapter.  They can do the work in their User:Username space,
for example, or directly in User_Guide.

The wiki is a content gateway drug, it gets people hooked, then we
introduce them to the hard stuff.

It's more of a nightmare for the lead writer, but you can try it for a
release and see if it's worth the hassle for the extra collaboration
opportunities.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From mg at hacka.net  Tue Jan  6 21:51:03 2009
From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:51:03 +0100
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <20090106201833.E0FD3619E89@hormel.redhat.com>
References: <20090106201833.E0FD3619E89@hormel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1231278663.11277.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Alright. Is this perhaps something that should be reflected at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Writing_Using_The_Wiki#Use_One_Wiki_Page_per_Chapter_or_Tutorial

That was the wiki page that 'made me do it' :-)

//M


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:39:57 -0800
From: Karsten Wade 
Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
Message-ID: <20090106173957.GO8094 at calliope.phig.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 02:50:49PM +0100, Magnus Glantz wrote:
> I've started writing a draft for such a chapter. I'll get back to you
> when I have something to present.
> 
>
https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Docs/Drafts/SecurityGuide/Security_for_home_users

You probably want to move that to your personal drafting/sandbox space
(User:Magnusg/Security_for_home_users.)  We are not using nested page
structures any longer, and are going to be renaming or archiving
everything in various Docs.* spaces over the next week, including
Docs/Drafts.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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------------------------------



From harvey at eccnet.com  Tue Jan  6 20:55:41 2009
From: harvey at eccnet.com (Betty Harvey)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:55:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: User Guide status?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<20090106183422.GP8094@calliope.phig.org>
	
	
	<56904.207.168.47.25.1231270983.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
	
Message-ID: <59361.207.168.47.25.1231275341.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>



>>
>> I am not sure if anyone is willing to move away from the WIKI but Drupal
>> has a module that allows native XML and rendering via a stylesheet.  I
>> am using it with a modified version of Docbook and XSLT.  It works
>> great.
>>
>> Betty
>>
>
> I don't mean to hijack this thread - but we'd really be interested in
> talking with you about Drupal as a CMS in general and the DocBook
> module specifically.
> Any chance you are coming to FUDcon?
> (If transportation is an issue we can probably take care of that if
> you are relatively close to I-95 - there is the East Coast Road Trip
> that has a spot open. (despite what the wiki says)
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon/FUDConF11#East_Coast_Road_Trip_--_CONFIRMED.21
>

Humm - I hadn't thought about coming to FUDcon but I could possibly
drive up.  I am on the I 95 corridor between Washington and Baltimore
but I am on-site on Friday so couldn't leave until the evening. If I
can find babysitting for the boys (dogs) I will try to make it.

Betty

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 410-787-9200 FAX: 9830
Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. |
harvey at eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/xmlug/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan  6 22:02:44 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:02:44 -0800
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <1231278663.11277.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090106201833.E0FD3619E89@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231278663.11277.36.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090106220244.GX8094@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 10:51:03PM +0100, Magnus Glantz wrote:
> Alright. Is this perhaps something that should be reflected at
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Writing_Using_The_Wiki#Use_One_Wiki_Page_per_Chapter_or_Tutorial
> 
> That was the wiki page that 'made me do it' :-)

Just as a follow-up for the list, Magnus was encouraged on IRC to be
bold and edit away on that page to fix the incorrect/old process
stuff. :)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From mg at hacka.net  Wed Jan  7 00:20:57 2009
From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:20:57 +0100
Subject: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
In-Reply-To: <1231262325.11277.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090106125109.C860C6195AD@hormel.redhat.com>
	<1231261318.11277.20.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1231262325.11277.27.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1231287657.19166.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Fixed. And yes, I now have a signature.

-- 
Best regards,
Magnus 'magnusg' Glantz
E-mail: mg at hacka.net
GPG Key: 0DB53317

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Magnusg

tis 2009-01-06 klockan 18:18 +0100 skrev Magnus Glantz:
> Just to clarify. I think it's an acceptable challenge to do that. As the
> benefits from having re-usable documents for all skill-sets would be
> pretty neat.
> 
> I've worked with demand management on technical documentation to fit
> most skill-sets and I know it's possible to create documentation guiding
> almost anyone thru anything. It's just damn hard work :-)
> //M
> 
> tis 2009-01-06 klockan 18:01 +0100 skrev Magnus Glantz:
> > OK. So..
> > 
> > 1) Finishing the Security Guide, including all aspects of security
> > important for average desktop/system admin/paranoid-for-good-reason
> > professional.
> > 2) Compile guides focused on specific areas out of the Security Guide.
> > 
> > This may reflect how much I know of DocBook XML content re-use.
> > But.. I'm thinking there is one concern with this.
> > 
> > It seems to put tough
> > easy-to-read-and-understand-for-all-knowledge-levels demands on the
> > Security Guide. I'm thinking this may also be challenging for demands on
> > prerequisite knowledge. The level of prerequisite knowledge also needs
> > to be low. Else it might get complicated to re-use components from the
> > Security Guide when the audience is people that doesn't know or care
> > much about security.
> > 
> > //M
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:06:02 -0800
> > > From: Karsten Wade 
> > > Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide
> > > To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > > Message-ID: <20090106080602.GJ8094 at calliope.phig.org>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > > 
> > > On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 11:24:36PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> > > 
> > > > If we are missing something you think should be addressed please feel
> > > > free to develop a chapter.
> > > 
> > > When Eric discussed the scope of the Security Guide with us on IRC,
> > > this was before the Red Hat content was released and available as an
> > > upstream to draw from.
> > > 
> > > However, we agreed then and later that it was a good idea to ...
> > > 
> > > * Include a wide range of security needs in the 'Security Guide'
> > > 
> > > * Make sure it was applicable to the "average desktop user", the
> > >   "average system administrator", and the "average highly secure
> > >   environment paranoid-for-good-reason professional."
> > > 
> > > (Eric, is that a fair assessment of the scope?)
> > > 
> > > That is a challenge, but a good one.
> > > 
> > > We can always take the larger upstream content and draw more than one
> > > Fedora-focused guide from it, for example ...
> > > 
> > > * Fedora Home User Security Guide
> > > * Fedora Secure Datacenter Guide
> > > * Etc.
> > > 
> > > By putting all the content in to one upstream document, it is like the
> > > Linux kernel -- useful for many sizes of hardware and environments.
> > > 
> > > Fortunately, DocBook XML makes it relatively easy to construct new
> > > guides out of existing XML content by reorganizing and omitting.
> > > 
> > > - Karsten
> > > -- 
> > > Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
> > > http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
> > > AD0E0C41
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> > > 
> > > ------------------------------
> > 



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Jan  7 18:07:27 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 10:07:27 -0800
Subject: task list for FUDConF11
Message-ID: <20090107180727.GJ4439@calliope.phig.org>

Please add things here that should be here.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_tasks_during_FUDConF11

Be aware that we plan to include remote people virtually in the
hackfests.  We'll definitely be in IRC; we should be dialed in to the
Fedora Talk server (extension 2008 is Docs Project conference room.)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From linuxglobe at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 23:59:59 2009
From: linuxglobe at gmail.com (Mark McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:59:59 -0500
Subject: FudCON 11 must have a coveritlive.com-like chat room!!!
Message-ID: <68f54c2a0901081559i6c826782tdce1292e6f335f25@mail.gmail.com>

The Last FUDcon did not have a Virtual extension a la coveritlive.com chat
room, I am hoping the next FUDcon WILL have a coveritlive chat room attached
so live blogging can take place, live streaming video would be a nice thing
to add to if possible...  But I settle for live audio streams...
Markus McLaughlin
linuxglobe.wordpress.com
Hudson, MA, USA
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From kwade at redhat.com  Fri Jan  9 19:35:04 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:35:04 -0800
Subject: Join page changes
Message-ID: <20090109193504.GG13560@calliope.phig.org>

Magnus has been making some good changes to the main Join page and
pinged me on IRC about more changes for project pages.  IIRC, those
suggestions were to have a standard block at/near the top of _each_
sub-project page for how to contribute to that specific sub-project.

With our wiki ethos, I don't see any reason we cannot just do this for
people, at least in terms of adding the block partially filled out to
many pages.

What should that look like?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Sun Jan 11 18:28:00 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:28:00 -0800
Subject: moving toward a content management decision
Message-ID: <20090111182800.GI13560@calliope.phig.org>

While the wiki covers 90%+ of the content collaboration needs for
Fedora, we continue to need a content management system (CMS) for the
Docs Project.  A CMS gives us workflow tools that makes it easy to
turn any contributor in to a publisher, while ensuring the ongoing
quality of the content throughout the lifecycle of a Fedora version.
For more information, read the blog posts linked from here:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CMS_solution_for_Fedora_Project_websites#Background

We've had a lot of discussions around CMS here at FUDCon, none of
which actually got us closer to a physical choice.  Every choice is a
double-edged sword, a phrase which here means, no matter which way we
swing it, it cuts our target and cuts ourselves.

Ultimately, my biggest concern is that any choice have a team of
people who know how to deploy and maintain the solution.  Aside from
technical capabilities, this is perhaps the most important criteria to
meet.

The solution we are walking away with today is to take the topic to
fedora-devel-list, fedora-list, and the blogs.  Tell people:

* We are picking a Docs Project CMS

* We are going to go with whatever CMS that meets the minimum
  must-have requirements[1] and has a team willing to step-up and do
  the work for the Fedora community.

* The work will happen within the Fedora Infrastructure project in a
  semi-isolated environment to minimize contact risk from potentially
  insecure apps.

* The new team must be at least two to three experienced web system
  administrators, with no more than one team member already overly
  busy in Infrastructure.  (We need to minimize overloading too small
  and too busy a group of people.)

How does this sound?

- Karsten

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CMS_solution_for_Fedora_Project_websites

-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Sun Jan 11 20:51:45 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:51:45 +0200
Subject: moving toward a content management decision
In-Reply-To: <20090111182800.GI13560@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090111182800.GI13560@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1231707105.3874.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2009-01-11 at 10:28 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> While the wiki covers 90%+ of the content collaboration needs for
> Fedora, we continue to need a content management system (CMS) for the
> Docs Project.  A CMS gives us workflow tools that makes it easy to
> turn any contributor in to a publisher, while ensuring the ongoing
> quality of the content throughout the lifecycle of a Fedora version.
> For more information, read the blog posts linked from here:
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CMS_solution_for_Fedora_Project_websites#Background
> 
> We've had a lot of discussions around CMS here at FUDCon, none of
> which actually got us closer to a physical choice.  Every choice is a
> double-edged sword, a phrase which here means, no matter which way we
> swing it, it cuts our target and cuts ourselves.
> 
> Ultimately, my biggest concern is that any choice have a team of
> people who know how to deploy and maintain the solution.  Aside from
> technical capabilities, this is perhaps the most important criteria to
> meet.
> 
> The solution we are walking away with today is to take the topic to
> fedora-devel-list, fedora-list, and the blogs.  Tell people:
> 
> * We are picking a Docs Project CMS
> 
> * We are going to go with whatever CMS that meets the minimum
>   must-have requirements[1] and has a team willing to step-up and do
>   the work for the Fedora community.
> 
> * The work will happen within the Fedora Infrastructure project in a
>   semi-isolated environment to minimize contact risk from potentially
>   insecure apps.
> 
> * The new team must be at least two to three experienced web system
>   administrators, with no more than one team member already overly
>   busy in Infrastructure.  (We need to minimize overloading too small
>   and too busy a group of people.)
> 
> How does this sound?
> 
> - Karsten
> 
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CMS_solution_for_Fedora_Project_websites

Karsten,

This all sounds great to me.  I think, if things don't work out with the
man page coverage project I'm currently trying to wrangle, I may
volunteer to be one of, if not the lead, of the web-side of things, as
that is my 9-5 and what I have most experience with - namely, web
development and deploying PHP-based web apps.  I believe the CMSes that
were looked at (Drupal et al) as options were all PHP/MySQL-based, which
is right up my alley.

I think once I settle down (I'm currently moving from Egypt to Malaysia,
leaving on Wednesday at noon local time), I'll be able to give both of
these projects far more time.

________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From linuxglobe at gmail.com  Mon Jan 12 20:03:38 2009
From: linuxglobe at gmail.com (Mark McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:03:38 -0500
Subject: Fedora 12 needs a BOLD name : "Monolith!" and other matters
Message-ID: <68f54c2a0901121203q60051f7fjd8c599fc061328d9@mail.gmail.com>

I didn't like any of the codenames for Fedora 11 but for Fedora 12, I want
to put in the name "Monolith" to honor Arthur C Clarke and Stanley Kubrick!
 They among others inspired me to write and think of bold ideas.  As far as
a User Manual for F-11, I hope the final result will be in PDF format.  I
often write rough drafts of things in RTF or DOC format then put out a final
copy in PDF.  If any help is needed for structuring F-11 User Manual or
Start Up, let me know...
Markus McLaughlin
linuxglobe.wordpress.com
Hudson, MA, USA
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From anross at redhat.com  Tue Jan 13 01:08:29 2009
From: anross at redhat.com (Andrew Ross)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:08:29 +1000
Subject: Self Introduction
Message-ID: <496BE98D.2030406@redhat.com>

Hi Everyone,

Name: Andrew Ross
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Profession: Quality Engineer
Company: Red Hat

I am currently employed at Red Hat, working in QE. I write documentation 
for internal projects and review documentation from Engineering Content 
Services.

Goals: I would like to help out, where I can, with documentation for 
Fedora. Whether this becomes a QA type of role, or a content author role 
is up for debate :P

* What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past?*
 * I am writing SRS's and user docs for internal Red Hat QE projects as 
well as reviewing docs for external use.
* Prior to this role, I was a high school teacher, and the designated 
driver for all things computer at my school. This involved documentation 
for "technologically challenged" staff that ranged from email access to 
report card writing. The school was a pilot for the new intranet based 
reporting system, OneSchoo, and I was implementation leader. (a 
euphemism for SLAVE).
* In 2005 I was volunteered to be the editor (and only contributor) for 
the Queensland Association of Maths Teachers (QAMT) newsletter. However, 
in May of 2006 my first child was born and I did not have the time to 
continue in that role.
*In 2001 I worked for Computer Science Corp (CSC) in Sydney on a 
helicopter flight sim project - although that was mainly coding, there 
was also some doc editing.

* What level and type of computer skills do you have?*
Lol an easy one.
* I have a B.Science with a comp science major.
* I am sitting for my RHCT in early February (providing the course is 
not canceled).
* I get easily excited by technology, and I can be a bit OCD when it 
comes to getting things working.... which is probably why I am a good 
person for QE.

* What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface 
design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc.*
* I am writing documentation using DocBook for internal processes.
*I have worked for 4 years as a high school teacher, so my people skills 
are good. (aka thick skinned)
*I can talk to anyone (and often do)...
* I did the programming major at uni, mainly Java, with some C++ and C. 
Although I will never forget the one semester of Cobol.
* I programmed commercially in Ada for CSC.
* In my current role, I will soon be reviewing JBoss docco's, so I am 
brushing up on Java :)
*
What makes you an excellent match for the project?*
* My RH role is documentation validation and writing - so it should be 
an easy transition from RH docs, to Fedora docs :)
* I am good at explaining things to different end users
* I enjoy "fact checking", that is, ensuring that the steps listed in a 
publication produce the desired (claimed) results.

*GPG Details*
[anross at mithrandir ~]$gpg --fingerprint CF53DC64
pub   1024D/CF53DC64 2009-01-13 [expires: 2010-01-13]
      Key fingerprint = E2C2 5C4F 0DAD C8F0 78EA  638C 3F8D E60A CF53 DC64
uid                  Andrew Ross (Fedora Key) 
sub   2048g/3677BA18 2009-01-13 [expires: 2010-01-13]

Aside:  I loved my hostname until yesterday when I re-read my sys-admins 
hostname... margrathea...  and the light finally clicked :)

That's about all from me for the time being.

Regards,

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Ross
Associate Quality Engineer
Red Hat Asia Pacific
Phone: 3514 8331
E-mail: anross at redhat.com
GPG-KeyID 0xCF53DC64 


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From ianweller at gmail.com  Tue Jan 13 03:18:24 2009
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:18:24 -0600
Subject: Fedora 12 needs a BOLD name : "Monolith!" and other matters
In-Reply-To: <68f54c2a0901121203q60051f7fjd8c599fc061328d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68f54c2a0901121203q60051f7fjd8c599fc061328d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090113031824.GA14667@gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 03:03:38PM -0500, Mark McLaughlin wrote:
> I didn't like any of the codenames for Fedora 11 but for Fedora 12, I want
> to put in the name "Monolith" to honor Arthur C Clarke and Stanley Kubrick!
>  They among others inspired me to write and think of bold ideas.
Yeah ok. Like F11, the F12 naming process begins after F11 is released,
so you might listen to fedora-announce-list and the like for information
on when you can make a proposal.

-- 
Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net  Tue Jan 13 15:35:10 2009
From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:35:10 +0000
Subject: Self Introduction
In-Reply-To: <496BE98D.2030406@redhat.com>
References: <496BE98D.2030406@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1231860910.10051.9.camel@frankenbox>

On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 11:08 +1000, Andrew Ross wrote:
> I am currently employed at Red Hat, working in QE. I write
> documentation for internal projects and review documentation from
> Engineering Content Services. 

Welcome to the Fedora Docs team, Andrew!  We're glad to have you helping
us out!  Please take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with our wiki
area at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject, and feel free to ask
lots of questions when things don't make sense.

We also tend to hang out in the #fedora-docs channel on the Freenode IRC
network, so please feel free to drop by and say hi there as well.

-Jared



From mg at hacka.net  Tue Jan 13 18:32:36 2009
From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:32:36 +0100
Subject: Self Introduction
In-Reply-To: <20090113170056.B00FD61920B@hormel.redhat.com>
References: <20090113170056.B00FD61920B@hormel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1231871556.13090.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Welcome to the project Andrew!

Seems you have quite some experience in the documentation area, looking
forward to seeing you around! :-)

-  
Best regards,
Magnus 'magnusg' Glantz
E-mail: mg -at- hacka -dot- net
GPG Key: 0DB53317

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Magnusg


tis 2009-01-13 klockan 12:00 -0500 skrev fedora-docs-list-request at redhat.com:

> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:08:29 +1000
> From: Andrew Ross 
> Subject: Self Introduction
> To: Fedora Docs-List 
> Message-ID: <496BE98D.2030406 at redhat.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Name: Andrew Ross
> Location: Brisbane, Australia
> Profession: Quality Engineer
> Company: Red Hat
> 
> I am currently employed at Red Hat, working in QE. I write documentation 
> for internal projects and review documentation from Engineering Content 
> Services.
> 
> Goals: I would like to help out, where I can, with documentation for 
> Fedora. Whether this becomes a QA type of role, or a content author role 
> is up for debate :P
> 
> * What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past?*
>  * I am writing SRS's and user docs for internal Red Hat QE projects as 
> well as reviewing docs for external use.
> * Prior to this role, I was a high school teacher, and the designated 
> driver for all things computer at my school. This involved documentation 
> for "technologically challenged" staff that ranged from email access to 
> report card writing. The school was a pilot for the new intranet based 
> reporting system, OneSchoo, and I was implementation leader. (a 
> euphemism for SLAVE).
> * In 2005 I was volunteered to be the editor (and only contributor) for 
> the Queensland Association of Maths Teachers (QAMT) newsletter. However, 
> in May of 2006 my first child was born and I did not have the time to 
> continue in that role.
> *In 2001 I worked for Computer Science Corp (CSC) in Sydney on a 
> helicopter flight sim project - although that was mainly coding, there 
> was also some doc editing.
> 
> * What level and type of computer skills do you have?*
> Lol an easy one.
> * I have a B.Science with a comp science major.
> * I am sitting for my RHCT in early February (providing the course is 
> not canceled).
> * I get easily excited by technology, and I can be a bit OCD when it 
> comes to getting things working.... which is probably why I am a good 
> person for QE.
> 
> * What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface 
> design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc.*
> * I am writing documentation using DocBook for internal processes.
> *I have worked for 4 years as a high school teacher, so my people skills 
> are good. (aka thick skinned)
> *I can talk to anyone (and often do)...
> * I did the programming major at uni, mainly Java, with some C++ and C. 
> Although I will never forget the one semester of Cobol.
> * I programmed commercially in Ada for CSC.
> * In my current role, I will soon be reviewing JBoss docco's, so I am 
> brushing up on Java :)
> *
> What makes you an excellent match for the project?*
> * My RH role is documentation validation and writing - so it should be 
> an easy transition from RH docs, to Fedora docs :)
> * I am good at explaining things to different end users
> * I enjoy "fact checking", that is, ensuring that the steps listed in a 
> publication produce the desired (claimed) results.
> 
> *GPG Details*
> [anross at mithrandir ~]$gpg --fingerprint CF53DC64
> pub   1024D/CF53DC64 2009-01-13 [expires: 2010-01-13]
>       Key fingerprint = E2C2 5C4F 0DAD C8F0 78EA  638C 3F8D E60A CF53 DC64
> uid                  Andrew Ross (Fedora Key) 
> sub   2048g/3677BA18 2009-01-13 [expires: 2010-01-13]
> 
> Aside:  I loved my hostname until yesterday when I re-read my sys-admins 
> hostname... margrathea...  and the light finally clicked :)
> 
> That's about all from me for the time being.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Andrew
> 
> -- 
> Andrew Ross
> Associate Quality Engineer
> Red Hat Asia Pacific
> Phone: 3514 8331
> E-mail: anross at redhat.com
> GPG-KeyID 0xCF53DC64 
> 
> 
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> URL: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/attachments/20090113/f0ded62c/attachment.html
> 
> ------------------------------



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 13 20:53:02 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:53:02 -0800
Subject: Fedora 12 needs a BOLD name : "Monolith!" and other matters
In-Reply-To: <68f54c2a0901121203q60051f7fjd8c599fc061328d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68f54c2a0901121203q60051f7fjd8c599fc061328d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090113205302.GC13560@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 03:03:38PM -0500, Mark McLaughlin wrote:
> I didn't like any of the codenames for Fedora 11 but for Fedora 12, I want
> to put in the name "Monolith" to honor Arthur C Clarke and Stanley Kubrick!
>  They among others inspired me to write and think of bold ideas.  

I often missing the initial name idea generation, but it happens
mainly on fedora-devel-list.  This pattern of picking the name on the
tail of the previous release is going to continue.  For example, the
Design team is doing their artwork theme based on the name, so they
need it as early as possible.  Keep your eyes open after F11 ships ...

> As far as
> a User Manual for F-11, I hope the final result will be in PDF format.  I
> often write rough drafts of things in RTF or DOC format then put out a final
> copy in PDF.  If any help is needed for structuring F-11 User Manual or
> Start Up, let me know...

PDF should be no problem, since we are using Publican.  Take a look at
the User Guide tasks, currently finishing the F9 version:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide_tasks

-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From davido at redhat.com  Wed Jan 14 01:13:18 2009
From: davido at redhat.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:13:18 +1000
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
Message-ID: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>

Who's the best person to talk to about managing Fedora doc? Especially 
things like:
- how the community contributes
- reviewing community contributions
- sharing doc between Fedora and RHEL
- location/use of repos

I've been having a look over the fedoraproject.org site, but still have 
some questions.

cheers

-- 

David O'Brien
IPA Content Author
Red Hat Asia Pacific

"We couldn't care less about comfort. We make you feel good."
Federico Minoli CEO Ducati Motor S.p.A.



From draciron at gmail.com  Wed Jan 14 04:08:45 2009
From: draciron at gmail.com (Dan Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 22:08:45 -0600
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
Message-ID: 

Karsten is probably the best person to ask. If he doesn't know the
answer he'll likely know who does.

Karsten Wade 


On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 7:13 PM, David O'Brien  wrote:
> Who's the best person to talk to about managing Fedora doc? Especially
> things like:
> - how the community contributes
> - reviewing community contributions
> - sharing doc between Fedora and RHEL
> - location/use of repos
>
> I've been having a look over the fedoraproject.org site, but still have some
> questions.
>
> cheers
>
> --
>
> David O'Brien
> IPA Content Author
> Red Hat Asia Pacific
>
> "We couldn't care less about comfort. We make you feel good."
> Federico Minoli CEO Ducati Motor S.p.A.
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Jan 14 17:17:32 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:17:32 -0800
Subject: meeting 14 Jan 1900 UTC
Message-ID: <20090114171732.GA7770@calliope.phig.org>

Today's meeting:

    * FUDCon results
    * CMS plan
    * Looking for a Release Notes document lead
    * DocsProject page changes
    * FUDCon plans
    * Go over task table
    * All other business 

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_14_January_2008
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Jan 14 17:18:55 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:18:55 -0800
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:13:18AM +1000, David O'Brien wrote:
> Who's the best person to talk to about managing Fedora doc? Especially  
> things like:
> - how the community contributes
> - reviewing community contributions
> - sharing doc between Fedora and RHEL
> - location/use of repos
>
> I've been having a look over the fedoraproject.org site, but still have  
> some questions.

Ask away; this is the Fedora Docs mailing list, couldn't be a better
place to ask. :)

Much of this may be on the wiki, but until we get our pages renamed
and categorized, it's nearly impossible to find.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Wed Jan 14 21:51:21 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:51:21 -0500
Subject: meeting 14 Jan 1900 UTC
References: <20090114171732.GA7770@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karsten Wade" 
To: "Fedora Documentation Project" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:17 PM
Subject: meeting 14 Jan 1900 UTC

> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_14_January_2008

So what transpired?  I had to go to a state agency meeting in Lansing and 
missed the meeting.  It looks as if the minutes for the past few meetings 
are missing.

--McD



From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 14 21:54:02 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:54:02 -0500
Subject: meeting 14 Jan 1900 UTC
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20090114171732.GA7770@calliope.phig.org>
	
Message-ID: <496E5EFA.6080206@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

John J. McDonough wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karsten Wade" 
> To: "Fedora Documentation Project" 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:17 PM
> Subject: meeting 14 Jan 1900 UTC
> 
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_14_January_2008
>>
> 
> So what transpired?  I had to go to a state agency meeting in Lansing
> and missed the meeting.  It looks as if the minutes for the past few
> meetings are missing.
> 
> --McD
> 

Give me a few minutes and I'll have the logs posted.

- - Eric
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkluXvgACgkQfQTSQL0MFMF85gCgiE0B6i3ovNEk/J1FO4VbfVrK
EaYAn3rWKKxzREyG7icMv//obzbN4ZiY
=y4VL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 14 22:08:18 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:08:18 -0500
Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2009-01-14 IRC log
Message-ID: <496E6252.3050201@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

14:01 < quaid> 
14:01  * quaid still hoping for zodbot meeting logging :)
14:02 < Sparks> +1
14:02 < quaid> le roll call?
14:02  * Sparks is present
14:02 -!- John5342 [n=john5342 at fedora/John5342] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:03 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_14_January_2008
FUDCon results
14:03 < quaid> I'm here too
14:03  * quaid makes a sound of crickets chirping
14:04 < quaid> ok then
14:04 < Sparks> Where is everyone?
14:04 < quaid> refering to
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_tasks_during_FUDConF11
14:05 < quaid> dunno
14:05 -!- fozzmoo [n=fozz at 209.41.95.5] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:06  * laubersm here
14:06 < quaid> since I just did the 'hit their nick thing' we can wait a
moment
14:06  * quaid forgets how useful that is
14:06 -!- jsmith
[n=njsmith at asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:06 < quaid> I regularly get saved in to a meeting because some kind
soul hit my nick to remind me it was time :)
14:06  * ke4qqq is here
14:06  * jsmith stumbles in, but is on two phone calls at the moment,
and won't be much use in the meeting
14:06 < Sparks> jsmith: That's a neat trick
14:07 -!- sdziallas_ [n=sebastia at p57A2D2F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:07 < fozzmoo> heh heh. The Asterisk guy is on 2 phone calls. har har.
14:07 < quaid> heh
14:07 < quaid> he needs an Asterisk Turing plugin
14:07 < jsmith> fozzmoo: It would be funnier if it weren't true :-(
14:07 < quaid> refering to
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_tasks_during_FUDConF11
14:08 < quaid> from a hackfest point of view, results were mixed
14:08  * dbewley partially here
14:08 < quaid> * we didn't get the beats renamed
14:08 < quaid> * I should have known Paul wouldn't be available since he
was /running the conference/ and I didn't do too much on process by myself
14:08 < quaid> * we still need pages renamed, but could have tho' didn't
categorize the pages
14:09 < quaid> * jsmith was looking a bit on moving the needle on the IG
conversion/how to convert to Publican stuff
14:09 < quaid> * we taught about the wiki
14:09 < quaid> * docbook was taught, yay
14:09 -!- warren [n=warren at redhat/wombat/warren] has quit ["Leaving"]
14:09 < quaid> * probably a dozen people were positively influenced
about the wiki, but we wanted the whole room to bow to our methods
14:10 < quaid> that's all I had
14:10 < ke4qqq> do we have owners for the various groups of pages?
14:10 < jsmith> quaid: FWIW, stickster and I took a stab at the Publican
stuff, but ran into problems with stickster's XSL transform
14:11 < stickster> jsmith: I think I knocked most of those out
14:11 < stickster> The newest tarball should hopefully work better
14:11 < laubersm> I got nudged into taking lead on Packaging docs
14:11 < jsmith> stickster: Cool... I'll give it a shot when I get a free
minute
14:11 < stickster>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_convert_to_from_fedora-docs-util_to_Publican
14:12 < quaid> ke4qqq: we have owners or people working on all BUT the
release notes
14:12 < quaid> laubersm++
14:12 < ke4qqq> wow laubersm!!!!
14:13 -!- jsmith is now known as jsmith-busy
14:13 < quaid> yeah, I think the Packaging Guide is a great fit --
laubersm has the skills to learn it on the job :), and it's probably the
most impactful
               thing we can be working on, in terms of making Fedorans'
lives better.
14:13 < jsmith-busy> Amen!
14:13 < laubersm> I don't think the renaming and adding catagories will
be hard... then we;ll go from there
14:13  * quaid expects others will pitch in esp. as they see momentum
14:14 < quaid> laubersm: go ahead and talk too much about it on
fedora-docs-list; ask lots of questions on fedora-wiki at lists.fp.org; etc.
14:14 < laubersm> will do
14:15 < ke4qqq> yeah I finished all of the Ambassador renaming during
fudcon - I'd guess maybe an hour per 100 pages if you know the content.
14:15 < Sparks> +1
14:16 < quaid> ke4qqq: sweet, yeah, I saw the PSV file
14:16 < quaid> g / G_work is probably still asleep ...
14:17 < quaid> we maybe need to enable ianweller to use wikibot more or
something.
14:17 < quaid> I'd like to see us push those naming changes through asap.
14:17 -!- fab [n=bellet at bellet.info] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:18 < Sparks> quaid: How long does it take wikibot to do all the work?
14:18 < quaid> dunno, it should be pretty fast
14:18 < quaid> it's making changes in the database perhaps?
14:18 < quaid> yeah, I think so; it's not scraping and inputing via the
usual web interface.
14:18 < Sparks> heck, give him the keys and let him go nuts
14:19 < quaid> +1
14:19 < quaid> so, we'll update the main task list from the fudcon
did/didn't list when we get there
14:19 < Sparks> Can we create a new position?  Like Wiki Czar?
14:19 < ke4qqq> Sparks: isn't that ian?
14:19 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_tasks_during_FUDConF11 ::
CMS planz
14:19 < Sparks> ke4qqq: My point exactly.  :)
14:19 < quaid> Sparks: basically, yes, I think we did that a while ago
14:20 < Sparks> quaid: Cool
14:20 < quaid> a few months, not sure if it was Czar, but I like that
14:20 < quaid> hope it wouldn't get any any czarists angry :)
14:20 < quaid> so, did everyone read my email on CMS to f-docs-l?
14:20 -!- MrTom [n=mrtom at fedora/MrTom] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:21 < Sparks> I did.
14:21 < laubersm> I did
14:21  * jsmith-busy read it, threw his hands in the air, and did
nothing else
14:21 < ke4qqq> yes, and I am curious as to what response you have had.
14:21 < quaid> laubersm: cheat, you proofread it for me before I sent it!
14:21  * laubersm laughs
14:21 < quaid> ke4qqq: I haven't looked outside of the list yet, but
p'raps it's time to send to the other lists
14:21 -!- sdziallas [n=sebastia at p57A2E232.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit
[Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:22  * ke4qqq thought you already sent it to -devel
14:22 < quaid> nothing from the wider community; Max and Greg thought it
was a good plan.
14:22 -!- sdziallas_ is now known as sdziallas
14:22 < quaid> ke4qqq: oops, not yet
14:22 < quaid> why stall?  not sure ...
14:22 < Sparks> quaid: Is there a wiki page for the CMS discussion?
14:22 < quaid> Sparks: yeah ...
14:22 < quaid>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CMS_solution_for_Fedora_Project_websites
14:22  * ke4qqq thinks we should send it to -devel and -art and maybe
even just the fedora list
14:23 < laubersm> quaid: send it out
14:23 < quaid> ke4qqq: +1 ... hadn't thought about art though
14:23 < quaid> definitely -list and -devel-list
14:25 -!- sdziallas [n=sebastia at p57A2D2F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit
["Ex-Chat"]
14:25 < Sparks> quaid: We should build profiles on each option that has
been proposed and show pros and cons.
14:25 -!- John5342 [n=john5342 at fedora/John5342] has quit [Remote closed
the connection]
14:26 < quaid> Sparks: ah, see ...
14:26 < Sparks> quaid: Maybe we can narrow the list down based on
specific things we have to have or can't live with.
14:26 < Sparks> quaid: Plus the ability of someone to maintain it upstream.
14:26 -!- iarlyy [n=iarly at mail.libertynet.com.br] has left
#fedora-meeting []
14:26 < ke4qqq> the problem we identified at FUDcon is that virtually
all of the options meet most if not all of the needs.
14:26 < Sparks> ke4qqq: That's the kind of problem I like!
14:26 < quaid> right, and the process of going beyond marketing materials
14:26 < quaid> is a huge vetting operation.
14:27 < quaid> Sparks: except then nothing stands out as a clear winner
14:27 < Sparks> quaid: True
14:27 < ke4qqq> and really, we are looking for owners.
14:27 < quaid> we also have the problem that anything we bring to
Infrastructure is going to be new to them; they are already well taxed
with other
               complexity, etc.
14:27 -!- red_alert [n=ill at fedora/redalert] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:27 < quaid> ke4qqq: +1
14:28 < Sparks> So we would need a buy in from them as well.
14:28 < Sparks> We don't want something that is going to add so much
work, etc.
14:28 < quaid> Sparks: that was the brainwave at FUDCon -- we aren't
looking for a CMS as much as owners for a CMS, who are preferably
passionate about it
               otherwise.
14:28 < quaid> e.g. note Basil's response on list
14:28 < ke4qqq> Sparks: Mike & Co. seem pretty open to just about
anything within reason.
14:28 < jsmith-busy> quaid: I talked to mmcgrath about that, and he
didn't seem *that* concerned about bringing in a new CMS
14:29 < Sparks> Have we drawn a line in the sand to say "no more" than
the seven on the list now?
14:29 < quaid> jsmith-busy: I know, but then I talked with Toshio ...
14:29 < ke4qqq> jsmith-busy: but on Sunday he did point out that the
wiki migration was really successful because it had an owner (Ian)
14:30 < quaid> right, and the wiki is the reference model
14:30 < quaid> when we announced that we were going to move to a
specific wiki solution, the person passionate about it showed up.
14:30 < jsmith-busy> Sparks: No, it may be premature to draw that line
(as much as I hate to admit it)
14:30 -!- danielsmw
[n=danielsm at 130-127-20-68.mauldin.resnet.clemson.edu] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:30 < Sparks> jsmith-busy: Well, that's a problem in itself.
14:30 < quaid> and if we just said "Drupal" that would probably happen,
but then we had the thought ... why not just approach this through the
               passion/interest as a primary scope item.
14:30 < Sparks> jsmith-busy: As you already know
14:30  * danielsmw waves hello
14:31 < quaid> hey danielsmw
14:31  * jsmith-busy has to run
14:31 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr at p4FDD172B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:31 -!- jsmith-busy is now known as jsmith-away
14:31 < quaid> we are catching up on CMS; ref. email sent to f-docs-l
14:31 < danielsmw> k
14:32 < quaid>
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-January/msg00077.html
for the IRC records :)
14:33 -!- harveybetty [n=harvey at firewall.eccnet.com] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:33 < quaid> Sparks: one thing I appreciated about Basil's email was
that he narrowed it to "PHP-based" but was willing to consider outside
of his
               expertise; that leaves room for e.g. Joomla experts to
show up and he can join that team.
14:33 < quaid> hey harveybetty
14:33 < ke4qqq> right, but the MW decision was pushed based on the
technical need.
14:33 < quaid> we are catching up on CMS; ref. email sent to f-docs-l
14:33 < harveybetty> Hi there - I was in the wrong channel
14:33 < quaid> ke4qqq: right, and we have no clear cms winner as we did
for wiki
14:33 < quaid> plus that was some months of work on mmcgrath's part; he
vetted the solutions, ran scripts, etc.
14:33 < quaid> the part of this that we could do but haven't nor really
want to :)
14:34 < quaid> harveybetty: yeah, we got our meeting time secured; the
other group moved to a different day
14:34 < harveybetty> Is there a list of CMS's that are being considered?
14:35 < danielsmw> harveybetty: this was the original page on the topic
that lists some on the bottom:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CMS_solution_for_Fedora_Project_websites#Background
14:35 < danielsmw> although i don't know what's been discussed here
14:35 < quaid> we are talkinga bout
14:36 < quaid> the idea of having a team self-identify as being willing
14:36 < quaid> to deploy and maintain
14:36 < quaid> and they choose their own solution
14:36 < danielsmw> ooh.
14:36 < quaid> i.e., email to fedora-list gets some Drupal people interested
14:36 < quaid> so it's Drupal, they run it, and we work with them.
14:37 < quaid> otherwise we are in a deep rabbit hole looking at 100+
solutions that nearly all fit our needs, without any technical
contributors to fix the
               gaps, and still nothing deployed with no one to deploy it :)
14:38 < harveybetty> Drupal is a nice solution.  There is an XML module
that fits nicely.  I have run into a problem when trying to install
faceted search
                     because the search doesn't understand XML and
causes errors.  I am investigating integrating SOLR as the search engine.
14:38 < quaid> ok, so I'm sending email to f-devel-l and fedora-list and
fedora-art-list
14:39 < quaid> harveybetty: honestly, considering how many Drupalheads I
know of, I'd bet that one has a clear run for the lead; if you are
interested in
               being part of a team that deploys/maintains, that is even
better :)
14:39 < quaid> we haven't heard of any DocBook module other than that one
14:39  * quaid ready to move on to the next agenda item
14:39 < quaid> anything more here?
14:40 < ke4qqq> nothing - but I'd like to ask a bunch of questions of
harveybetty at some point regarding drupal
14:40 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Maybe we should have a separate session after
the meeting
14:40 < harveybetty> Be glad too.  It is a generic XML module and you
can plug Docbook in.
14:40  * danielsmw agrees
14:40 < Sparks> ke4qqq: I have questions as well
14:41 < quaid> ok, maybe on #fedora-docs, start anytime IMO
14:41 < harveybetty> I can be available later on #fedora-docs.
14:41 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg ::
Release notes lead ...
14:41 < quaid> this remains our only un-led guide
14:42 < quaid> other than wider recruiting ...
14:42 < quaid> any other thoughts on that one?
14:42  * quaid notes that it is in fact usually much easier on the
writing and much harder on the wrangling of cats than other content
14:42 < Sparks> This is probably one of our biggest project that gets
the most attention.
14:43 < quaid> yeah, I think it's unlikely we'll just drop it
14:43 < quaid> despite whatever stickster and I have said :)
14:44 < quaid> so it might be worth a wider recruiting effort?
14:44 -!- moixs [n=chatzill at 77-56-144-22.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:44 < stickster> quaid: How many wider recruiting efforts have we had
at this point, do you think?
14:44 -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk
14:44  * ke4qqq wonders if laubersm can be nudged more?
14:44  * Sparks warms up the pokers
14:44  * laubersm runs fast
14:45 -!- BobJensen [n=jensen at fedora/bobjensen] has quit [Read error:
110 (Connection timed out)]
14:45 -!- EvilBob [n=EvilBob at fedora/bobjensen] has quit [Read error: 110
(Connection timed out)]
14:46 < Sparks> laubersm: I'm sure you'll have support if you do take
the project.
14:46 -!- valente [n=valente at 213.233.88.171] has quit ["Leaving."]
14:46 < quaid> stickster: not that much outside of my occasional pleas
via blogging
14:46 < Sparks> laubersm: Just need someone to "manage" its development.
14:46 < laubersm> sparks: I already have a project
14:46 < Sparks> :)
14:46 < ke4qqq> there's been the mailing list posts as well
14:46 < quaid> yeah, that's my concern, we don't want to overload those
who are already taking on assignments
14:47 < quaid> stickster: but with one thing to recruit for, maybe that
will help?
14:47 < ke4qqq> so here is my concern.....
14:47  * quaid listens
14:47 < ke4qqq> you are essentially talking about taking a person from 0
- - to responsible for what is arguably the most important document we
produce at
                least in terms of # of readers.
14:49 < quaid> ke4qqq: honestly, I'm going to be there all the way alongside
14:49 < quaid> but that is a good point
14:49 < Sparks> quaid: How long does it take to put all the changes in?
14:49 -!- ezq [n=ezq at 201-213-152-14.net.prima.net.ar] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
14:49 < quaid> Sparks: ideally one watches the wiki along the way and
makes it easier
14:49 < ke4qqq> that sounds scary......even though there is handholding
available.
14:49 < quaid> true
14:50 < quaid> maybe I could ask for "interns" to work directly with me
for the release
14:50 < quaid> with the idea that one of them will step-up to lead for
the F12 release.
14:50 < ke4qqq> why not target the beat writers for F10?
14:51 < ke4qqq> esp the non-new feature writers
14:51 -!- EvilBob [n=EvilBob at fedora/bobjensen] has joined #Fedora-Meeting
14:51 -!- BobJensen [n=jensen at fedora/bobjensen] has joined #Fedora-Meeting
14:51 < quaid> ke4qqq: as in, direct asking if they want to lead?
14:51 < ke4qqq> yes
14:52 < quaid> that's not a bad idea in fact :)
14:52  * quaid makes himself a list
14:52 < quaid> so ...
14:52 < ke4qqq> that's a 'promotion'....lol
14:52 < quaid> 1. Ask existing beat writers from F10
14:52 -!- iarlyy [n=iarlyy at mail.libertynet.com.br] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:52 < quaid> 2. If no bites, maybe recruit ass't editors who get
promoted in the future.
14:52 < quaid> 3. If no go there, decide if we are going to do the guide
anyway or not
14:53 -!- cmpahar [n=cmpahar at 83.212.63.5] has quit [Read error: 113 (No
route to host)]
14:53  * ke4qqq thinks FESCo will fire us if we don't.....besides that
gets more rave reviews.... - perhaps we drop another document and
refocus on that.
14:53  * ke4qqq shrugs
14:53 -!- rod085 [n=rod085 at 189.35.191.16] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:53 < Sparks> I see the Docs Project working on two kinds of projects:
14:54 < Sparks> 1) The projects we are passionate about
14:54 < Sparks> 2) The projects that need to get done for Fedora
14:54 < quaid> well, one can self-volunteer for 2) but you can't really
go asking for that too much.
14:54 < Sparks> While we all like doing the first type of projects we
all need to do the second type.
14:55  * ke4qqq doesn't see many projects that aren't #2, even if the
reason for working on them are #1.
14:56 < Sparks> ke4qqq: true
14:56  * ke4qqq can't get subjects and verbs to agree
14:56 < quaid> right, and the idea is to get #2 done via the #1 method
14:56 < quaid> then it's done better, with more fun, etc.
14:56 < ke4qqq> +1
14:57 < Sparks> +1
14:57 < laubersm> and if there is someone out there passionate about
having release notes.....
14:57 < quaid> :D
14:57 < quaid> well, if we drop the work, they'll sure notice :)
14:57 < ke4qqq> there are lots of people passionate about having
them....just not about writing them.
14:57 < quaid> is anyone available/interested in helping with the
recruting for RN lead?
14:58  * ke4qqq will work on recruiting a new RN lead
14:58 < quaid> ke4qqq: you're on!
14:58 < quaid> thx
14:58  * quaid will update our tasks table with this stuff, too
14:59 < quaid> since we are near closing
14:59 < quaid> how about if we call this here and retire to #fedora-docs?
14:59 < ke4qqq> +1
14:59 < danielsmw> +1
14:59 < quaid> sweet
14:59  * quaid closes in 5
14:59 < quaid> 4
14:59 < quaid> 3
14:59 < quaid> 2
14:59 < quaid> 1
14:59 < quaid> 

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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 14 22:31:22 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:31:22 -0500
Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2009-01-14 Summary
Message-ID: <496E67BA.3010203@christensenplace.us>

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Attendees:
- -----------
quaid
sparks
laubersm
stickster
jsmith
ke4qqq
danielsmw
harveybetty


Summary:
- ---------

* Docs Project Tasks during FUDCon Results
Quaid talked about the goings on at FUDCon 11.  There were teaching
sessions on the wiki and DocBook.  Some work was done but more needs to
be done on the wiki work.

* CMS Plans
Options were discussed about the different CMS packages that are
available for us to use.  A discussion about using Drupal ensued and
harveybetty was able to give more information on the system as she uses
that system now for other projects.  Quaid is going to put a message out
on f-devel-l, fedora-list, and f-art-l to get opinions from other areas
of Fedora.  Additional information can be found at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CMS_solution_for_Fedora_Project_websites

* Release Notes Lead
The Release Notes is one of the biggest projects Docs Project has on its
plate.  Right now there is not a lead for the project.  We need someone
to help with this project.
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Jan 14 22:53:57 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:53:57 -0500
Subject: Your favorite CMS running docs.fedoraproject.org?
In-Reply-To: <20090114222022.GF7770@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090114222022.GF7770@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <20090114225357.GI14350@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 02:20:22PM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> We are looking for a team of people who want to deploy and maintain a
> new CMS for Fedora Docs.  It may become the CMS that runs all of
> fedoraproject.org that is not a wiki.[0]

[...snip...] 
> For more information:
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CMS_solution_for_Fedora_Project_websites

Can someone update the timeline there with new target dates, and a
Plan B?  That way the page doesn't look like this is already behind
(and thus disincenting otherwise interested people).  The Plan B might
be as simple as "Keep doing things the old, busted way," but there
should be a contingency plan listed regardless.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 14 23:00:54 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:00:54 -0500
Subject: Your favorite CMS running docs.fedoraproject.org?
In-Reply-To: <20090114225357.GI14350@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090114222022.GF7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090114225357.GI14350@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <496E6EA6.6040403@christensenplace.us>

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Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 02:20:22PM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
>> We are looking for a team of people who want to deploy and maintain a
>> new CMS for Fedora Docs.  It may become the CMS that runs all of
>> fedoraproject.org that is not a wiki.[0]
> 
> [...snip...] 
>> For more information:
>>
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CMS_solution_for_Fedora_Project_websites
> 
> Can someone update the timeline there with new target dates, and a
> Plan B?  That way the page doesn't look like this is already behind
> (and thus disincenting otherwise interested people).  The Plan B might
> be as simple as "Keep doing things the old, busted way," but there
> should be a contingency plan listed regardless.
> 

I'll run the schedule out another month or so.

- - Eric
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Jan 15 01:27:18 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:27:18 -0800
Subject: Packaging Guidelines
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20090115012718.GL7770@calliope.phig.org>

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 07:48:11PM -0500, Susan Lauber wrote:
> Greetings all - especially the packaging folks,
> 
> I talked to a few people at FUDCon and the end result is that I seem to be
> the Docs Project lead for the Packaging Guidelines docs.
> I think it will be an exciting task and I hope to learn a lot about the Docs
> Project as well as more about building packages in the process.

Thanks Susan.  I think this guide is one of the most important content
pieces for Fedora today and the future; we are nothing if not at least
set of well-built packages.

> I have begun the wiki page renaming for the pages in the (new) Packaging
> namespace by creating a PSV file in
> http://git.fedoraproject.org/git/wikirename.git

My one suggestion, which we discussed on IRC, was to use lower case
for subsequent words in a title.  In other words, [[Titles have a
natural flow]], reserving all-initial caps for [[Really Important
Chapters of Stuff]].  This is from:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_structure#General_naming_rules

> 3.  The next step is Categories for the pages.  Which may also help with any
> additional renaming. Are there any suggestions or ideas already out there
> before I start making them up - er - examining content for logical category
> names?

For the rest of the audience here :), categories are where we get our
information nesting.  [[Category:Python packaging guidelines]] can be
applied to >1 pages, creating an instant reference of anything to do
with packaging Python.  Categories can be nested in each other, and
across each other, to create organic and intentional pathways for
people to follow.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From davido at redhat.com  Fri Jan 16 00:31:54 2009
From: davido at redhat.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:31:54 +1000
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
	<20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>

Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:13:18AM +1000, David O'Brien wrote:
>   
>> Who's the best person to talk to about managing Fedora doc? Especially  
>> things like:
>> - how the community contributes
>> - reviewing community contributions
>> - sharing doc between Fedora and RHEL
>> - location/use of repos
>>
>> I've been having a look over the fedoraproject.org site, but still have  
>> some questions.
>>     
>
> Ask away; this is the Fedora Docs mailing list, couldn't be a better
> place to ask. :)
>
> Much of this may be on the wiki, but until we get our pages renamed
> and categorized, it's nearly impossible to find.
>
> - Karsten
>   
I'm working on a project that currently produces a community version and 
an Enterprise version of both the software and the documentation. The 
community version of the documentation is written and maintained on a 
wiki, and the Enterprise doc using DocBook xml. Being the only writer on 
the project means the community version of the doc is always out of date 
(I focus on Enterprise doc). This is a new project and community 
engagement is still developing. Maintaining both versions of the doc to 
keep up with the software is not possible for a single writer, and quite 
frankly not desirable. I'm researching how I might develop all of the 
doc in a single language (DocBook xml) and deliver it to both 
destinations using publican.
 
I found a bunch of info on the website about community contributions and 
the use of WikiText, OOo, plain text, etc., if they weren't comfortable 
with the idea of using xml. I'm looking into whether supporting 
contributions in a wide range of formats is feasible.

I didn't determine from what I read at what point contributions are 
reviewed. (I didn't read the whole site, of course, just looked for the 
important bits.) Are reviews performed on WikiText, converted DocBook, 
elsewhere? How do you determine who can review and approve docs? How do 
you manage docs that have been submitted, converted, and published? Are 
edits/updates performed in WikiText and reconverted?

What degree of sharing occurs between Fedora and RHEL documentation (if 
any)? How is this handled?

I found info on the cvs repo that's used.

As I read and learn more I might have more or different questions, or 
answer some of my own :)

thanks a lot.

-- 

David O'Brien
IPA Content Author
Red Hat Asia Pacific

"We couldn't care less about comfort. We make you feel good."
Federico Minoli CEO Ducati Motor S.p.A.



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Fri Jan 16 03:39:05 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:39:05 +1000
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
	<20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901151939u595a7fdcy9ab805d5a8fc42f7@mail.gmail.com>

> What degree of sharing occurs between Fedora and RHEL documentation (if
> any)? How is this handled?

Almost none.

I think the Linux Security Guide is the first time 'sharing' has
occurred....

Cheers.



From jfearn at redhat.com  Fri Jan 16 03:47:34 2009
From: jfearn at redhat.com (Jeff Fearn)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:47:34 +1000
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0901151939u595a7fdcy9ab805d5a8fc42f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>	<20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>	<496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>
	<95f1114b0901151939u595a7fdcy9ab805d5a8fc42f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49700356.8020206@redhat.com>

Murray McAllister wrote:
>> What degree of sharing occurs between Fedora and RHEL documentation (if
>> any)? How is this handled?
> 
> Almost none.
> 
> I think the Linux Security Guide is the first time 'sharing' has
> occurred....

Maybe someday something will change and there will an explosive move of content 
from Red Hat to fedora!

Cheers, Jeff.

-- 
Jeff Fearn 
Software Engineer
Engineering Operations
Red Hat, Inc
Freedom ... courage ... Commitment ... ACCOUNTABILITY



From kwade at redhat.com  Fri Jan 16 06:00:21 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:00:21 -0800
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
	<20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090116060021.GP7770@calliope.phig.org>

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:31:54AM +1000, David O'Brien wrote:
>>   
> I'm working on a project that currently produces a community version and  
> an Enterprise version of both the software and the documentation. The  
> community version of the documentation is written and maintained on a  
> wiki, and the Enterprise doc using DocBook xml. Being the only writer on  
> the project means the community version of the doc is always out of date  
> (I focus on Enterprise doc). This is a new project and community  
> engagement is still developing. Maintaining both versions of the doc to  
> keep up with the software is not possible for a single writer, and quite  
> frankly not desirable. I'm researching how I might develop all of the  
> doc in a single language (DocBook xml) and deliver it to both  
> destinations using publican.

One of the reasons we embraced the wiki is because it greatly
increased the community contributions.  Be aware that limiting source
to DocBook XML also limits the number of contributors.

This is of course without the Magic Grail that we all want -- an easy
way similar to a wiki or wysiwyg-via-WebUI that reads and writes to
valid DocBook XML.

In the meantime, by moving to stand-alone repositories for each guide
on fedorahosted.org, it pushes more in tools and decision making to
the individual contributor teams.  It's really easy for each guide to
set its own policy on contributions and processes for the canonical
source.

> I found a bunch of info on the website about community contributions and  
> the use of WikiText, OOo, plain text, etc., if they weren't comfortable  
> with the idea of using xml. I'm looking into whether supporting  
> contributions in a wide range of formats is feasible.

It takes a team, in our experience so far.  Some of what you read is
outdated; we're busy working on renaming, categorizing, and cleaning
up that content.  In general, we support:

* Wiki-only for shorter how-to/tutorials maintained inside and outside
  of Fedora Docs Project.

* Wiki that gets converted to XML when it's ready for translation
  (Release Notes does this, several other guides have undergone this
  transition.)  In this case, usually each version is worked via the
  wiki first.

* DocBook XML-only content (Installation Guide, Security Guide).
  These are full-length books that are not worth pushing back and
  forth to the wiki.  The wiki is lossy; you lose contextual meaning
  to the mark-up.

> I didn't determine from what I read at what point contributions are  
> reviewed. (I didn't read the whole site, of course, just looked for the  
> important bits.) Are reviews performed on WikiText, converted DocBook,  
> elsewhere? How do you determine who can review and approve docs? How do  
> you manage docs that have been submitted, converted, and published? Are  
> edits/updates performed in WikiText and reconverted?

Probably the best overall page, still sure to have some inaccuracies:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WorkFlow

1. Group collaborates on wiki content:

   * Beats for Release Notes are technology specific sections to be
   included in larger chapters.

   * One chapter per wiki page for guides written on the wiki.

2. Content is ideally edited as it is written.  Writers learn as they
   go how to improve their writing.  Editors don't save all the work
   for the end.  All this work happens in the wiki.

3. When content is ready for translation-then-publication, it is
   converted to DocBook XML in either the fedora-doc-utils or publican
   toolchains.

4. Translated and base-language versions are published on
   docs.fedoraproject.org.

> What degree of sharing occurs between Fedora and RHEL documentation (if  
> any)? How is this handled?

Historically there has not been any, save an occasional release note.

To catch an opportunity like this, someone needs to be willing to lead
the effort on the document.  This means trading writing and editing
for project management, growing trust in others to do the write/edit
work.

There has to be an upstream somewhere that we can use.  One method is
to put the upstream content inside of Fedora.  It is then usable by
downstreams such as RHEL.  This has not happened so far.

Currently, there are several guides available or soon available as
stand-alone upstream projects on fedorahosted.org.  In this case,
Fedora is as much a downstream as RHEL and CentOS are.

In the case of FreeIPA content, for example, I would expect the latter
situation would probably occur.  We could want to use some or all of
the FreeIPA content in, for example, a Fedora Deployment or Fedora
Administration Guide.  Downstream appliance makers could use:

  (FreeIPA + Fedora) - (cruft) - (Fedora mark) + (Fedora Remix mark)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Fri Jan 16 06:46:07 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:46:07 +1000
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <20090116060021.GP7770@calliope.phig.org>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
	<20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>
	<20090116060021.GP7770@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901152246g31189f5ak9532198aac59e013@mail.gmail.com>

> There has to be an upstream somewhere that we can use.  One method is
> to put the upstream content inside of Fedora.  It is then usable by
> downstreams such as RHEL.  This has not happened so far.

The SELinux User Guide is in Fedora but not Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
Does this count as "upstream"? Eventually it would be good to 'pull it
down' so that the bits work with what is happening in Red Hat
Enterprise Linux.

I think it would be good for both sides if this was done more often.

Cheers.



From kwade at redhat.com  Fri Jan 16 14:30:57 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 06:30:57 -0800
Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2009-01-14 Summary
In-Reply-To: <496E67BA.3010203@christensenplace.us>
References: <496E67BA.3010203@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <20090116143057.GQ7770@calliope.phig.org>

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 05:31:22PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Attendees:
> - -----------
> quaid
> sparks
> laubersm
> stickster
> jsmith
> ke4qqq
> danielsmw
> harveybetty
> 
> 
> Summary:
> - ---------

Two quick note/additions:

> * Docs Project Tasks during FUDCon Results
> Quaid talked about the goings on at FUDCon 11.  There were teaching
> sessions on the wiki and DocBook.  Some work was done but more needs to
> be done on the wiki work.
> 
> * CMS Plans
> Options were discussed about the different CMS packages that are
> available for us to use.  A discussion about using Drupal ensued and
> harveybetty was able to give more information on the system as she uses
> that system now for other projects.  Quaid is going to put a message out
> on f-devel-l, fedora-list, and f-art-l to get opinions from other areas
> of Fedora.  Additional information can be found at
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CMS_solution_for_Fedora_Project_websites

As per email sent to this list, we proceeded with calls for
deployment/maintenance teams who pick their own CMS choice, rather
than Docs trying to pick a CMS without an implementation team.

> * Release Notes Lead
> The Release Notes is one of the biggest projects Docs Project has on its
> plate.  Right now there is not a lead for the project.  We need someone
> to help with this project.

David Nalley is going to lead the recruiting effort, starting with
people who worked on Beats last release to see if they want a
'promotion'. :D

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Jan 19 22:20:53 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:20:53 -0500
Subject: Release Notes beat scrubbing
Message-ID: <20090119222053.GK1592@localhost.localdomain>

Regarding scrubbing the Release Notes beats pages:

* Should we set this as an explicit target for the Fedora 11 Alpha
  release?

* Should we identify specific pages that should be immune from
  scrubbing?

* Who wants to participate?

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Mon Jan 19 23:09:23 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:09:23 -0500
Subject: Release Notes beat scrubbing
In-Reply-To: <20090119222053.GK1592@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090119222053.GK1592@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Paul W. Frields  wrote:
> Regarding scrubbing the Release Notes beats pages:
>
> * Should we set this as an explicit target for the Fedora 11 Alpha
>  release?
>
> * Should we identify specific pages that should be immune from
>  scrubbing?
>
> * Who wants to participate?
>

I say this partially tongue in cheek - but didn't we set the "each
document must have an owner by" date of end of FUDcon or be dropped?
I personally view the release notes as one of the most important
documents that we produce, but it still doesn't have an owner last I
checked. Does this mean we drop another document or??

I personally think we should scrub them all. One problem that seemed
to come around this past release was finding content that hadn't been
touched and differentiating that from content that had.

I'll try and participate in the scrubbing.



From kwade at redhat.com  Mon Jan 19 23:25:05 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:25:05 -0800
Subject: Docs at Fedora Activity Day (FAD) [SCaLE 7x 20 Feb.]
Message-ID: <20090119232505.GD20940@calliope.phig.org>

There is a FAD[1] happening at the Southern California Linux Expo
(SCaLE) 7x[2] on Friday 20 February.  The Ambassadors have suggested that
the FAD focus be on Ambassadors and Docs.  (A FAD is a short event of
Fedora contributors and participants that is focused on getting one or
two activities done.)

What would you suggest we focus on?  Are you in or near Southern
California?  Trip plans below.

My ideas so far:

* User Guide for F10 -- all wiki work, can use the Ambassador hardware
  as systems to write from.

* DocBook in a Day -- ~1 hour tutorial, then get busy doing a task in
  DocBook:

  * Convert F{9,10} User Guide to XML
  * Convert Installation Guide to Publican

* Installation Guide Rawhide Camp -- Test rawhide installs against the
  IG and update content, make content projections for F11.

* Security Guide Pen Testing -- Attack the concepts in the Sec Guide;
  configure systems to match SecG recommendations; whiteboard and LAN
  penetration testing.

(Sort-of in order of difficulty.)  Let's decide ASAP so Clint et al
can get the word out about our FAD focus.

My plan right now is to drive down from Nor Cal with Larry Cafiero and
a few crew.  Is there is anyone we should/could pick up on the way?
SCaLE is being held at the Westin LAX, near LAX airport; we'll be
coming down I-5 on Thursday, I reckon.

If you know any Fedorans or potential Fedorans in the LA area, let's
use the FAD as a place they can explore deeper participation in the
project.

- Karsten

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Activity_Day_-_FAD
[2] http://scale7x.socallinuxexpo.org/
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Jan 19 23:55:43 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:55:43 -0500
Subject: Release Notes beat scrubbing
In-Reply-To: <20090119222053.GK1592@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090119222053.GK1592@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <497512FF.8050907@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Regarding scrubbing the Release Notes beats pages:
> 
> * Should we set this as an explicit target for the Fedora 11 Alpha
>   release?
> 
> * Should we identify specific pages that should be immune from
>   scrubbing?
> 
> * Who wants to participate?

Paul,
Sign me up.  I'm hoping that the Security Guide just got over a major
hump so I'll have more time to focus on other projects.

Thanks,
Eric Christensen
E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkl1EvsACgkQfQTSQL0MFMGWYwCggETFfYCD27wXeiOvwTZNlnrY
c6oAoK2GskCEOVO1uozd52gvgJoFnKSP
=nK6k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Tue Jan 20 00:03:47 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:03:47 -0500
Subject: Release Notes beat scrubbing
References: <20090119222053.GK1592@localhost.localdomain>
	
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Nalley" 
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 

Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: Release Notes beat scrubbing


> I personally view the release notes as one of the most important
> documents that we produce, but it still doesn't have an owner last I
> checked. Does this mean we drop another document or??

Seems to me that just a few days ago I read a summary of last week's meeting 
that said (referring to the release notes lead):

> David Nalley is going to lead the recruiting effort

So are you saying you plan to drop the ball?

--McD



From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Tue Jan 20 00:11:22 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:11:22 -0500
Subject: Release Notes beat scrubbing
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20090119222053.GK1592@localhost.localdomain>
	
	
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 7:03 PM, John J. McDonough  wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Nalley"
> 
> To: "For participants of the Documentation Project"
> 
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Release Notes beat scrubbing
>
>
>> I personally view the release notes as one of the most important
>> documents that we produce, but it still doesn't have an owner last I
>> checked. Does this mean we drop another document or??
>
> Seems to me that just a few days ago I read a summary of last week's meeting
> that said (referring to the release notes lead):
>
>> David Nalley is going to lead the recruiting effort
>
> So are you saying you plan to drop the ball?
>
> --McD


Not at all - I am 'recruiting' for a lead for the Release Notes - and
I am hoping that the possibility of no release notes flushes a lead to
the surface.

Yes, such a suggestion is somewhat inflammatory - but it just grabbed
at least one persons attention :)

I mean really.... if we fail at recruiting someone to lead the release
notes, are we going to produce them? Like I said, I say half in jest.



From davido at redhat.com  Tue Jan 20 01:31:49 2009
From: davido at redhat.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:31:49 +1000
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <20090116060021.GP7770@calliope.phig.org>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>	<20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>	<496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>
	<20090116060021.GP7770@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <49752985.5050603@redhat.com>

Comments inline...

Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:31:54AM +1000, David O'Brien wrote:
>   
>>>   
>>>       
>> I'm working on a project that currently produces a community version and  
>> an Enterprise version of both the software and the documentation. The  
>> community version of the documentation is written and maintained on a  
>> wiki, and the Enterprise doc using DocBook xml. Being the only writer on  
>> the project means the community version of the doc is always out of date  
>> (I focus on Enterprise doc). This is a new project and community  
>> engagement is still developing. Maintaining both versions of the doc to  
>> keep up with the software is not possible for a single writer, and quite  
>> frankly not desirable. I'm researching how I might develop all of the  
>> doc in a single language (DocBook xml) and deliver it to both  
>> destinations using publican.
>>     
>
> One of the reasons we embraced the wiki is because it greatly
> increased the community contributions.  Be aware that limiting source
> to DocBook XML also limits the number of contributors.
>   
This is one of the concerns that has been raised. We'd like to find a 
workable middle-ground, where potential contributers are not dissuaded 
by the requirement to learn or use a specific language, but neither are 
maintainers, editors, etc., bombarded with content in so many formats 
that excessive time is spent in conversions.
> This is of course without the Magic Grail that we all want -- an easy
> way similar to a wiki or wysiwyg-via-WebUI that reads and writes to
> valid DocBook XML.
>   
We need to be careful with "valid DocBook XML". What is valid for one 
brand in publican may well not be for another brand (this is my 
understanding - maybe Jeff can clarify). OOo may also output "valid 
XML", but it will fail to build using the RedHat brand. However, I 
understand the sentiment; the ability to write in  
using  and being able to output xml suitable for the 
brand and toolchain we're using would give me warm fuzzies. :)
> In the meantime, by moving to stand-alone repositories for each guide
> on fedorahosted.org, it pushes more in tools and decision making to
> the individual contributor teams.  It's really easy for each guide to
> set its own policy on contributions and processes for the canonical
> source.
>
>   
>> I found a bunch of info on the website about community contributions and  
>> the use of WikiText, OOo, plain text, etc., if they weren't comfortable  
>> with the idea of using xml. I'm looking into whether supporting  
>> contributions in a wide range of formats is feasible.
>>     
>
> It takes a team, in our experience so far.  Some of what you read is
> outdated; we're busy working on renaming, categorizing, and cleaning
> up that content.  In general, we support:
>
> * Wiki-only for shorter how-to/tutorials maintained inside and outside
>   of Fedora Docs Project.
>
> * Wiki that gets converted to XML when it's ready for translation
>   (Release Notes does this, several other guides have undergone this
>   transition.)  In this case, usually each version is worked via the
>   wiki first.
>
> * DocBook XML-only content (Installation Guide, Security Guide).
>   These are full-length books that are not worth pushing back and
>   forth to the wiki.  The wiki is lossy; you lose contextual meaning
>   to the mark-up.
>   
We're considering a mixture of this. We envisage an area on the wiki 
where contributers can submit how-tos, examples of how they solved a 
particular issue or a configuration that they used. If it's something 
that is suitable for Enterprise doc (and not, for example, how to 
configure unsupported hardware/software to work) then we would convert 
it to DocBook. At present we only have full-length books, and pushing 
back and forth between the wiki and DocBook is really not an option.
>   
>> I didn't determine from what I read at what point contributions are  
>> reviewed. (I didn't read the whole site, of course, just looked for the  
>> important bits.) Are reviews performed on WikiText, converted DocBook,  
>> elsewhere? How do you determine who can review and approve docs? How do  
>> you manage docs that have been submitted, converted, and published? Are  
>> edits/updates performed in WikiText and reconverted?
>>     
>
> Probably the best overall page, still sure to have some inaccuracies:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WorkFlow
>
> 1. Group collaborates on wiki content:
>
>    * Beats for Release Notes are technology specific sections to be
>    included in larger chapters.
>
>    * One chapter per wiki page for guides written on the wiki.
>
> 2. Content is ideally edited as it is written.  Writers learn as they
>    go how to improve their writing.  Editors don't save all the work
>    for the end.  All this work happens in the wiki.
>
> 3. When content is ready for translation-then-publication, it is
>    converted to DocBook XML in either the fedora-doc-utils or publican
>    toolchains.
>
> 4. Translated and base-language versions are published on
>    docs.fedoraproject.org.
>
>   
This might work for the smaller contributions from the community (in my 
project) but not for the large books (as mentioned above). The doc group 
basically consists of me, with draft contributions from developers and a 
(very) few community members.
>> What degree of sharing occurs between Fedora and RHEL documentation (if  
>> any)? How is this handled?
>>     
>
> Historically there has not been any, save an occasional release note.
>
> To catch an opportunity like this, someone needs to be willing to lead
> the effort on the document.  This means trading writing and editing
> for project management, growing trust in others to do the write/edit
> work.
>
> There has to be an upstream somewhere that we can use.  One method is
> to put the upstream content inside of Fedora.  It is then usable by
> downstreams such as RHEL.  This has not happened so far.
>
> Currently, there are several guides available or soon available as
> stand-alone upstream projects on fedorahosted.org.  In this case,
> Fedora is as much a downstream as RHEL and CentOS are.
>
> In the case of FreeIPA content, for example, I would expect the latter
> situation would probably occur.  We could want to use some or all of
> the FreeIPA content in, for example, a Fedora Deployment or Fedora
> Administration Guide.  Downstream appliance makers could use:
>
>   (FreeIPA + Fedora) - (cruft) - (Fedora mark) + (Fedora Remix mark)
>   
thanks for the thoughts.
> - Karsten
>   


-- 

David O'Brien
IPA Content Author
Red Hat Asia Pacific

"We couldn't care less about comfort. We make you feel good."
Federico Minoli CEO Ducati Motor S.p.A.



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 20 17:33:14 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:33:14 -0800
Subject: leadership (re)fresh
Message-ID: <20090120173314.GH20940@calliope.phig.org>

It's long past the time for me to step back from being the
leader/chair for the Docs Project.  Time to give some other
enthusiastic people a chance to steer this ship.  I am still going to
be a Docs Project contributor, offering my emeritus leader opinions
from the sidelines.

It is a basic element of the Fedora Way that we rotate leadership
around, or otherwise do what we can to give more people a chance to be
in charge.  It also avoids burnout in people too long in one
position.

Here is a status on leadership within this sub-project, and some
questions.

== Leadership status ==

I've been leading this sub-project for 3+ years, first by succession,
then by fiat, then by election as Chair of the steering committee.

Last year+ we started to have an election for the Fedora Documentation
Steering Committee (FDSCo) but didn't have enough people to really
make an election.  Elected steering/leadership is a requirement[1] to be
a Fedora sub-project.

The existing steering committee decided to suspend the elections
process in favor of a looser organization.  We remembered that most
people who came to the original steering committee felt empowered to
take charge, and feared that a stale FDSCo would discourage new
leaders/doers.

At the present time, we need to recreate that leadership structure.
One reason is to continue as a representative sub-project with clearly
recognized leadership.  Then a new leader for Docs can arise to bring
fresh passion and ideas to the role.

== Questions ==

* Elections are a requirement of being a sub-project.  Special
  interest groups (SIGs) can self-organize as they see fit.  It is a
  bit unclear what the reason is to choose one over the other.

  * Do we want to return to elections and maintain our sub-project
    status?

  * Do we prefer a looser SIG structure?  If yes, how do we populate
    and recognize leadership in this group?

* What is the size and shape of a leadership team?

* Is there any other form that Docs could or should take that might
  work better, differently, etc.?

Thanks for your time in considering this important stuff.

== References ==

[1] https://https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Defining_projects

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/ProcessDocs

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Tue Jan 20 21:32:29 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:32:29 -0500
Subject: leadership (re)fresh
In-Reply-To: <20090120173314.GH20940@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090120173314.GH20940@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <497642ED.4090308@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Karsten Wade wrote:
...
> == Questions ==
> 
> * Elections are a requirement of being a sub-project.  Special
>   interest groups (SIGs) can self-organize as they see fit.  It is a
>   bit unclear what the reason is to choose one over the other.
> 
>   * Do we want to return to elections and maintain our sub-project
>     status?
> 
>   * Do we prefer a looser SIG structure?  If yes, how do we populate
>     and recognize leadership in this group?
> 
> * What is the size and shape of a leadership team?
> 
> * Is there any other form that Docs could or should take that might
>   work better, differently, etc.?
> 
...
> - Karsten
> 

It is my opinion that the Docs Project should not be a SIG and should
try to remain a "project".  If only by definition, I feel that SIGs are
optional while projects are a requirement or a need.  If only to
generate the Release Notes, I feel that the Docs Project is a need for
Fedora.  Of course we do more than the Release Notes so that bolsters my
feeling that we are an essential part of the Fedora Project.

As to the rest of the questions, I'm not really sure.  I feel that we
can have the structure without it being overly strict.  The best
leadership simply provides direction and resources and allows the
"troops" to march on their own to get the job done which is how this
project has been led in the past and present.  I don't think we need a
panel of twenty but a couple of people to manage specific portions of
the Project might be nice, if not overkill.  I'd be interested to hear
others opinions.


Thanks,
Eric Christensen
E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1

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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Jan 21 04:47:56 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:47:56 -0800
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <49752985.5050603@redhat.com>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
	<20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>
	<20090116060021.GP7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<49752985.5050603@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090121044756.GP20940@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 11:31:49AM +1000, David O'Brien wrote:
> Comments inline...
>
> Karsten Wade wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:31:54AM +1000, David O'Brien wrote:
>>
>> One of the reasons we embraced the wiki is because it greatly
>> increased the community contributions.  Be aware that limiting source
>> to DocBook XML also limits the number of contributors.
>>   
> This is one of the concerns that has been raised. We'd like to find a  
> workable middle-ground, where potential contributers are not dissuaded  
> by the requirement to learn or use a specific language, but neither are  
> maintainers, editors, etc., bombarded with content in so many formats  
> that excessive time is spent in conversions.

Having a simple system in the wiki could work, though.  MediaWiki
categorization and such; feed watches, etc.  For example, we have a
mailing list that is a bit of a firehose -- it receives all bug
traffic for 'fedora-release-notes' package; it used to receive all the
wiki changes to 'wiki/Docs/Beats'; and so on.  If you use "either wiki
(for short stuff and drafting) or DocBook (for longer stuff and
converted-from-wiki stuff), then your content community can work in
two places, see commits via one firehose, and plan sync/migration of
content.

>> This is of course without the Magic Grail that we all want -- an easy
>> way similar to a wiki or wysiwyg-via-WebUI that reads and writes to
>> valid DocBook XML.
>>   
> We need to be careful with "valid DocBook XML". What is valid for one  
> brand in publican may well not be for another brand (this is my  
> understanding - maybe Jeff can clarify). OOo may also output "valid  
> XML", but it will fail to build using the RedHat brand. However, I  
> understand the sentiment; the ability to write in   
> using  and being able to output xml suitable for the  
> brand and toolchain we're using would give me warm fuzzies. :)

Hmm.  I'm not sure how to apply that.  In my mind, there _is_ such a
thing as valid DocBook XML.  We may have toolchains with expectations
on how the toolchain wants it to behave, that is not per the
standard.  I understand why Publican et al make limitations on tags it
will accept and so forth.  The proper way to deal with this is to have
XSLT to transform between the XML expectations our toolchains have.

We shouldn't limit ourselves in planning based on the fact we don't
have an army of XSLT experts at hand. :) The more of us with a similar
itch, the more chance we'll find someone to help us scratch it.  For
example, the Google Summer of Code is upcoming ...

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Summer_coding_2009

> We're considering a mixture of this. We envisage an area on the wiki  
> where contributers can submit how-tos, examples of how they solved a  
> particular issue or a configuration that they used. If it's something  
> that is suitable for Enterprise doc (and not, for example, how to  
> configure unsupported hardware/software to work) then we would convert  
> it to DocBook. At present we only have full-length books, and pushing  
> back and forth between the wiki and DocBook is really not an option.

Agreed; back and forth is not viable.  The wiki is lossy; all of the
markup context is lost in conversion (or needs to be created.)

The nice thing about the Enterprise content is that it can be a fork
from an upstream source, maintained along with that version of the
product.  If you have:

* 100% fidelity of content in an area where the maximum number of
  contributors can help

* A match of versions to fork from (Free 4.0 becomes Enterprise 1.7)

* Willingness to do *all* of the work in the upstream so there can be
  clear demarcation of ongoing FreeIPA work and frozen-for-maintenance
  Enterprise IPA work.

Depending on how much changes between versions, you can actually use
the wiki diff engine to tell if there needs ot be updates to the XML.
The key is having a disciplined approach to versioning and branching.

Having a sane hosting and SCM for the document helps.  We're using
Trac + git for most Fedora guides.  We can track what happens with a
version of a document in version-specific tickets.

> This might work for the smaller contributions from the community (in my  
> project) but not for the large books (as mentioned above). The doc group  
> basically consists of me, with draft contributions from developers and a  
> (very) few community members.

The larger point I want to make is that open content is like open
source code.  You can always hire a team and accomplish a lot with
that team, but there is a limit to how far you can scale.

If you start now with community sourcing all of your content, not just
the small tutorials, then you build something that is truly low cost
and scalable, sooner rather than later.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 21 13:22:23 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:22:23 -0500
Subject: Meeting Reminder
Message-ID: <4977218F.1020407@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Docs Project will meet today at 1900 UTC in #fedora-meeting.

Thanks,
Eric Christensen
E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1

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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Jan 21 14:01:31 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:01:31 -0500
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <20090121044756.GP20940@calliope.phig.org>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
	<20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>
	<20090116060021.GP7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<49752985.5050603@redhat.com>
	<20090121044756.GP20940@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <20090121140131.GA30705@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 08:47:56PM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 11:31:49AM +1000, David O'Brien wrote:
> > Comments inline...
> >
> > Karsten Wade wrote:
> >> This is of course without the Magic Grail that we all want -- an easy
> >> way similar to a wiki or wysiwyg-via-WebUI that reads and writes to
> >> valid DocBook XML.
> >>   
> > We need to be careful with "valid DocBook XML". What is valid for one  
> > brand in publican may well not be for another brand (this is my  
> > understanding - maybe Jeff can clarify). OOo may also output "valid  
> > XML", but it will fail to build using the RedHat brand. However, I  
> > understand the sentiment; the ability to write in   
> > using  and being able to output xml suitable for the  
> > brand and toolchain we're using would give me warm fuzzies. :)
> 
> Hmm.  I'm not sure how to apply that.  In my mind, there _is_ such a
> thing as valid DocBook XML.  We may have toolchains with expectations
> on how the toolchain wants it to behave, that is not per the
> standard.  I understand why Publican et al make limitations on tags it
> will accept and so forth.  The proper way to deal with this is to have
> XSLT to transform between the XML expectations our toolchains have.

Actually, the proper way to do that would be to not use DocBook XML as
the declared dialect, but rather some subset of DocBook.  Publican
should then provide a public DTD and RelaxNG schema so people's
XML-aware editors could do the work for them, as opposed to putting
the onus on users to remember which tags are usable and which aren't.

Don't want to drag this thread OT, and my comment here probably
belongs on the publican-list instead.  ISTR this topic might have come
up there before.  Just putting in $0.02.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From bugzilla at redhat.com  Fri Jan  9 21:26:07 2009
From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:26:07 -0500
Subject: [Bug 479470] New: cobbler kssendmac and breed suse
Message-ID: 

Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
comments should be made in the comments box of this bug.

Summary: cobbler kssendmac and breed suse

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=479470

           Summary: cobbler kssendmac and breed suse
           Product: Fedora Hosted Projects
           Version: unspecified
          Platform: All
        OS/Version: Linux
            Status: NEW
          Severity: low
          Priority: low
         Component: Deployment_Guide
        AssignedTo: mhideo at redhat.com
        ReportedBy: quenzler at us.ibm.com
         QAContact: rlerch at redhat.com
                CC: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
    Classification: Fedora
    Target Release: ---


Description of problem:
breed = suse
/boot/grub/menu.lst contains kssendmac

Version-Release number of selected component (if applicable):
cobbler-1.2.9-1.fc9.noarch

How reproducible:
Install a SuSE client

Actual results:
kssendmac exists as a boot parameter on a SuSE client

Expected results:
No kssendmac boot parameter

Additional info:
Find a way to avoid adding kssendmac to the kernel_options string if it's not
applicable to the breed.

Hack (since I'm only installing SuSE clients):
# diff utils.py utils.py.ori
478,479c478,479
< #    if len(kernel_txt) < 244:
< #        results["kernel_options"]["kssendmac"] = None
---
>     if len(kernel_txt) < 244:
>         results["kernel_options"]["kssendmac"] = None

-- 
Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are on the CC list for the bug.



From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 21 00:07:29 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:07:29 -0500
Subject: F11 Release Notes Beat Writers
Message-ID: <49766741.8090107@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

It's that time of year, again!  Time to hit the streets to get all the
new Fedora goodness documented!

There are two kinds of people receiving this message.  The first kind of
recipient are those that had a beat assignment for F10.  If you are one
of these please go over to the wiki[1] and verify that your assignment
is still correct.  While you are over there please remove the "*" from
your name so we know you are still on board.  The second kind of
recipient are those that were not on the beat list but probably should
be.  If you are one of these please go over to the wiki[1] and sign up
for one of the open slots.  Don't wait around because the best slots go
fast!

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats


Thanks,
Eric Christensen
E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1

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From poelstra at redhat.com  Wed Jan 21 16:14:10 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:14:10 -0800
Subject: Round One: Fedora 11 Schedule
Message-ID: <497749D2.9060205@redhat.com>

Hi Everyone,

I've finished what I believe is a good first draft (perhaps close to 
final) version of the Documentation schedule for Fedora 11.

http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html
A text version is also available: 
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.txt

I took the feedback from our conversations at FUDCon and experiences we 
had with Fedora 10 into account
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/fudconf11/IMG_2064.JPG
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/fudconf11/IMG_2065.JPG

PLEASE review the schedule and let me know if there are any tasks 
missing.  Note, this is just a list of Documentation tasks so tasks 
completed by others groups, for example Translation, are on a different 
report.

Next I will be working on the Translation schedule which contains many 
of the follow on tasks from the Documentation schedule.  Naturally, to 
finalize both schedules we'll need agreement from both groups :)

I'll be seeking feedback for the Translation schedule in the same way. 
I hope this is helpful.  If other reporting formats are helpful please 
let me know.

John







From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Wed Jan 21 17:02:51 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:32:51 +0530
Subject: FudCON 11 must have a coveritlive.com-like chat room!!!
In-Reply-To: <68f54c2a0901081559i6c826782tdce1292e6f335f25@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68f54c2a0901081559i6c826782tdce1292e6f335f25@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4977553B.1040402@fedoraproject.org>

Mark McLaughlin wrote:
> The Last FUDcon did not have a Virtual extension a la coveritlive.com 
>  chat room, I am hoping the next FUDcon WILL 
> have a coveritlive chat room attached so live blogging can take place, 
> live streaming video would be a nice thing to add to if possible...  But 
> I settle for live audio streams...

This doesn't seem related to documentation at all. Why is it being 
posted here?

Rahul



From herlo1 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 21 17:41:14 2009
From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:41:14 -0700
Subject: FudCON 11 must have a coveritlive.com-like chat room!!!
In-Reply-To: <4977553B.1040402@fedoraproject.org>
References: <68f54c2a0901081559i6c826782tdce1292e6f335f25@mail.gmail.com>
	<4977553B.1040402@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Rahul Sundaram
 wrote:
> Mark McLaughlin wrote:
>>
>> The Last FUDcon did not have a Virtual extension a la coveritlive.com
>>  chat room, I am hoping the next FUDcon WILL have a
>> coveritlive chat room attached so live blogging can take place, live
>> streaming video would be a nice thing to add to if possible...  But I settle
>> for live audio streams...
>
> This doesn't seem related to documentation at all. Why is it being posted
> here?
>
> Rahul
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>

I will agree with Rahul, but will answer it here.  In the future,
probably fedora-list would be more appropriate.

FUDConF11 was streamed live.  We provided anywhere from 1 to 4 streams
throughout the Saturday barcamps.  We streamed them using my
foundations streaming server at http://stream.utos.org.  However, I
have a request in for a streaming server on Fedora hardware and
anticipate this happening before the next FUDCon in June.

As far as CoverItLive.com, it's a proprietary idea to do essentially
what can be done in IRC.  I see some of the benefits of it and maybe
we can build something based upon Moksha [1] (there's a video too)[2]
which will help accommodate that sort of functionality.  If you are
seriously wanting functionality like you suggested, why not start a
project and use Moksha to do the work?

Cheers,

Clint

1 - http://lmacken.fedorapeople.org/moksha/
2 - http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/videos/2009/FUDConF11/fudconf11-moksha.ogg



From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Jan 21 19:41:03 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:41:03 -0500
Subject: leadership (re)fresh
In-Reply-To: <20090120173314.GH20940@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090120173314.GH20940@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <20090121194103.GE9546@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 09:33:14AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> It's long past the time for me to step back from being the
> leader/chair for the Docs Project.  Time to give some other
> enthusiastic people a chance to steer this ship.  I am still going to
> be a Docs Project contributor, offering my emeritus leader opinions
> from the sidelines.

I think everyone should recognize how much time and effort you've
devoted to doing this over the past several years.  You mentored me
when I started, and it's been a constant learning experience since (in
the best sense).

[...snip...]
> Last year+ we started to have an election for the Fedora Documentation
> Steering Committee (FDSCo) but didn't have enough people to really
> make an election.  Elected steering/leadership is a requirement[1] to be
> a Fedora sub-project.
> 
> The existing steering committee decided to suspend the elections
> process in favor of a looser organization.  We remembered that most
> people who came to the original steering committee felt empowered to
> take charge, and feared that a stale FDSCo would discourage new
> leaders/doers.
> 
> At the present time, we need to recreate that leadership structure.
> One reason is to continue as a representative sub-project with clearly
> recognized leadership.  Then a new leader for Docs can arise to bring
> fresh passion and ideas to the role.

I think having a clear leader for Docs is more important than
establishing a steering committee.  As our participating community
members have shown, any of them is capable of listening carefully,
forming consensus, and making good decisions.  What we need most now
is momentum, and as that increases along with the ranks of Docs
contributors, we can worry about an election process and a steering
committee.  Right now, we need someone to be accountable for the
overall direction and progress of the Docs group, with help at the
task level from all of us who are participating or want to start doing
so.

Hopefully it goes without saying, but this is just my opinion as a
Docs contributor.  The larger Docs community should decide how to
provide the potential for positive, forward momentum.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 21 21:46:50 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:46:50 -0500
Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2009-01-21 IRC log
Message-ID: <497797CA.8000303@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

14:01 < quaid> 
14:02  * stickster here
14:02  * Sparks is present
14:02  * ke4qqq here
14:02 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg --

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008
- -- calling of the role
14:02  * danielsmw will be more actine in 20-25 minutes.
14:02  * jjmcd is here
14:03  * quaid gives danielsmw some treatment options for his actine
14:03 < danielsmw> s/ine/ive
14:03 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes at fedora/DemonJester] has quit ["leaving"]
14:04 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg --

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008
- -- Status on release notes for F11 : lead and
          beats
14:05 < quaid> ke4qqq: you want to talk about doc lead?
14:06 < ke4qqq> we are looking for a lead for relnotes
14:06 < ke4qqq> decent organizational skills and preferably some
experience in cat herding
14:06 < stickster> There was a nibble from someone the other day, wasn't
there?
14:06 < ke4qqq> we've had a few
14:06 < ke4qqq> no one who has wanted to jump in front of the bus yet though
14:07 < jjmcd> Isn't it more like under the bus
14:07 < ke4qqq> jjmcd: that isn't until after release
14:07 < stickster> When is the cutoff for a lead, and/or do we need a
contingency plan for that possibility?
14:08 < ke4qqq> FUDcon technically
14:08 < ke4qqq> we should have a contingency plan methinks
14:08  * jsmith sneaks in late
14:08 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Push comes to shove, I'll do it.
14:09 < stickster> I think the handoff is not as hard as people think
14:09 < Sparks> The beat writers from F10 have already been emailed with
a request to update their Beat assignments and I've already started to
see some
                activity on the page.
14:09 < quaid> we also need some "lieutenants", in that the work always
seems to require lots of hands closer we ge
14:09  * ke4qqq shoves Sparks
14:09 < stickster> Yes, it shouldn't all fall on one person
14:09 < ke4qqq> is that enough?
14:09 < quaid> ha!
14:10 < jjmcd> stickster: The whole conversion thing is still a total
mystery to a lot of us  --  kinda scary
14:10 < quaid> how about this ....
14:10 < quaid> what if Sparks takes lead for _just_ F11
14:10 < quaid> and jjmcd and others who might be interested
14:10 < quaid> commit to a Lt. role
14:10 < quaid> and we rotate for F12
14:10 < stickster> It's really not a mystery, I think quaid has already
made up notes on how to do each page
14:10 < quaid> ?
14:10 < Sparks> quaid: Can we make it a mandatory rotation?  :)
14:10 < stickster> Sparks: That's not a bad idea
14:10  * herlo is here today
14:10 < quaid> Sparks: +10
14:10  * jsmith agrees to be a "Wiki to DocBook leftenant"
14:10  * Sparks declares jsmith next.
14:11 < jjmcd> Sparks: If you/Paul are willing to agree to a little
conversion mentoring, I'll step up for 12
14:11 < Sparks> jjmcd: Works for me
14:11 < stickster> Honestly, the only thing that makes things difficult
at all is the transclusion people are using on the wiki pages. I think
we should do
                   away with all transclusions because they're too
confusing to deal with.
14:11 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes at fedora/DemonJester] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:11 < ke4qqq> outstanding!
14:11 < stickster> If we just have N number of flat pages, the
conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process.
14:11 < stickster> If we just have N number of flat pages, the
conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process.
14:11 < stickster> oops, sorry
14:12 < Sparks> The page is at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats, by the way.
14:12 < Sparks> If the beat writer doesn't have a * next to their name
that means they've accepted their beat for F11
14:13 < stickster> jjmcd: I'm willing to do that meeting, btw
14:13 < stickster> Have the beats now been scrubbed?
14:13 < stickster> Archived, or however we intend to put the old content
away?
14:14 < Sparks> stickster: The scrubbing is in progress
14:14 < Sparks> stickster: quaid said archiving past information was not
necessary in most cases.
14:14 < Sparks> I'm pretty sure all I did was reset the table and change
F10 to F11 where applicable
14:15 < quaid> it is page renaming that has to happen next :)
14:15 < quaid> each beat needs to be assessed, either scrubbed clean or
left with some content, depending on each case.
14:15 < stickster> IYAM we should do page renaming, strip out all the
content, remove transclusions, and start fresh.
14:15 < stickster> +1 quaid, that some pages might need to retain some
content.
14:15 < stickster> Good clarifications.
14:16 < stickster> But keep in mind that the page history holds on to
the old content so we should not be timid about getting rid of material.
14:16 < quaid> right
14:16 < stickster> It's time for some bold moves here.
14:16 -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes at mail.thepcagroup.com] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:16 -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes at mail.thepcagroup.com] has quit [Client
Quit]
14:17 < stickster> To me, the most important questions are, (1) is it
clear to the community where and how they can write content into beats?
and (2) is the
                   process of producing the release notes as easy as
possible for the people trying now to shoulder that work?
14:17 < Sparks> Is it possible to have a template for all the beats to
work off of?
14:17 < quaid> on the first one ...
14:17 < quaid> I think we need the pages renamed and categorized first
14:17 < quaid> then we publicize like crazy
14:17 < stickster> Sparks: Probably not, because there are subdivisions
that are going to be particular to each beat's subject matter... just my
opinion
14:18 < quaid> as for 2 ...
14:18 < Sparks> I noticed that the Feature pages have a template with
embedded notes on completing the form.  That would make it real easy.
14:18 < stickster> quaid: Clarification, renamed, categorized, and
flattened (removing transclusions)
14:18 < quaid> it could be easier, and we have time to work on that
before we need it to be easier.
14:18 < quaid> harveybetty was working on that, for example
14:18 -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes at rrcs-72-43-197-222.nys.biz.rr.com] has
joined #fedora-meeting
14:18 < stickster> Sparks: But the factors people have to document in
that process are set and well-bounded, which is not true about release
notes.
14:19 < Sparks> Okay
14:19 < jjmcd> It would be good, though, if we could somehow push the
RNs toward being a little more even, maybe a template would help but I'm
a little from
               Missouri on that
14:19 < stickster> Sparks: In some cases, the contributor need to
provide a command for a temporary workaround. In others, they need to
explain a new
                   feature that's superseded an old one. Or indicating a
deprecation... it's pretty wide-open
14:19 < Sparks> So give them a sandbox and let them go.
14:20 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes at fedora/DemonJester] has quit [Read
error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
14:20 < stickster> Sparks: Yup, all we need to provide is "Please start
your section with an == h2 == and go to town"
14:20 < quaid> yeah
14:20 < Sparks> stickster: Okay, well we can do that.
14:20 < quaid> that might be enough of a template :)
14:20 -!- danielsmw [n=danielsm at user-24-214-179-165.knology.net] has
quit ["Lost terminal"]
14:21 < Sparks> Okay, I'll look at that this evening and see what needs
to be done.
14:21 < ke4qqq> can we offload all of the feature stuff to the owners
(or their delegates) and remove that from our plate altogether?
14:21 < Sparks> We can also change the page names at the same time and
get them in the proper category and such.
14:21 < quaid> ke4qqq: I fear we'll not see the content then
14:21 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr at p4FDD1623.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit
[Remote closed the connection]
14:22 < quaid> ke4qqq: in reality, we do already to an important degree
14:22 < quaid> ke4qqq: the feature pages have a relese notes section
they need to fill out
14:22 < quaid> we just have to suck that in
14:22 < ke4qqq> surely the feature owners want their feature
covered....if not - perhaps we don't cover it.
14:22 < ke4qqq> ahhhh
14:22 < ke4qqq> that's a bit easier
14:22 < jjmcd> The problem, of course, is that "features" cover maybe
10% of the changes
14:23 -!- mdomsch [n=Matt_Dom at cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com] has
joined #fedora-meeting
14:23 < jjmcd> Although maybe my perception is colored by having worked
on devtools
14:23 < quaid> no, it's true
14:23 < Sparks> Okay, so let's set up the pages with proper names, put
all the pages in the proper category, and link those pages onto the main
page and
                start advertising.
14:23 < quaid> features are only highlighted groupings of changes
14:24 < quaid> but we cannot expect to get all changes in a release
notes set
14:24 < quaid> Sparks: +1
14:24 < jjmcd> Although for developers, even minor changes can be pretty
important
14:24 -!- danielsmw
[n=danielsm at 130-127-20-68.mauldin.resnet.clemson.edu] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:25 < Sparks> quaid: I can get those pages setup this evening.
Shouldn't take long.  Then we'll be ready.
14:25  * danielsmw has upgraded from an ipod to a laptop, and can now
participate.
14:25 -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes at rrcs-72-43-197-222.nys.biz.rr.com] has
quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
14:25 < quaid> ok, ready to move on from release notes?
14:25 < Sparks> +1
14:25 < stickster> bam! pow!
14:25 < ke4qqq> +1
14:26 < jsmith> +0.98 (after inflation)
14:26 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes at fedora/DemonJester] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:26 < herlo> +1
14:26 < jjmcd> lets go
14:26  * herlo points out that jsmith's version of inflation shows him
having less money rather than the prices going up :)
14:27 < jsmith> herlo: Well, it depends on whether you're a spender or a
saver :-p
14:27 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg --
meeting time change proposal
14:27  * jsmith mumbles "meetings are *never* convenient"
14:27 < quaid> true dat
14:27 < herlo> it seems everyone is trying to change meeting times
14:27 < quaid> but this current time was made by a bunch of people who
are mainly no longer here :)
14:27  * jds2001 urges docs not to change to Friday's at 2PM :D
14:27 < quaid> heh
14:28 < Sparks> So I'm thinking Friday at... 2?
14:28 < jds2001> lol
14:28 < jjmcd> Would Friday at 4 be better?
14:28 < quaid> Sparks: one thing is, I think we cannot *fix* a new time
until we have a new steering committee to fix it for
14:28 < herlo> +1
14:28 < jds2001> unless you want FESCo clash :D
14:28 < herlo> okay not really ^^
14:28 < Sparks> quaid: True
14:28 < ke4qqq> FDSCo v. FESCo - on pay per view?
14:29 < jsmith> ke4qqq: But if we win, do we have to wear silly belts
with belt-buckles the size of dinner plates?
14:29 < Sparks> Just think about moving the meeting for a future discussion.
14:29 < ke4qqq> jsmith: no just larger gold-encrusted pocket protectors
14:30 < quaid> ok, so we're not against a new meeting time, per se, right?
14:30 < Sparks> +1
14:30 < jsmith> +1
14:30 < stickster> Not against, +1
14:30 < jjmcd> +1
14:31 < stickster> We can again use that standard wiki matrix to fix a time
14:31 < Sparks> stickster: Already got something in the works although
quaid might have a better solution.
14:32 < quaid> no you got the right thing
14:32 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FDSCo_meeting_matrix
14:32 < quaid> Sparks made that and we can start populating it
14:33 < stickster> awesome.
14:33 < quaid> we can choose to later weed out anyone who is not on a
steering committee, although I think getting the widest group regardless
is the goal
14:33 < Sparks> yes
14:33 < quaid> ok, then ...
14:33 < quaid> anything else on this 'un?
14:34 < Sparks> nope
14:34 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg --
leadership (re)fresh
14:34 < quaid> anyone not read my email to the list?
14:34 < quaid> if you have ... any reason you haven't commented on it? ;-D
14:34 < jjmcd> which email to which list?
14:34 < quaid> jjmcd: "Leadership (re)fresh" to f-docs-l
14:34 < jjmcd> ahhhhh
14:35  * Sparks commented on it
14:35 < quaid>
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-January/msg00109.html
14:35  * jjmcd wondered whether it was moot if there weren't candidates
still
14:36 < quaid> oh, interesting viewpoint
14:36 < quaid> I think we have at least a half-dozen people who have
clearly showed leadership ability/skills and could be the Chair
14:36 < quaid> and that means at least that many who could be steering
14:36 < quaid> in fact, many of you _are_ steering without the formal
recognition.
14:36 -!- J5 [n=quintice at nat/redhat/x-4b4a82606c3ac184] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:36 -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk
14:37 < jjmcd> Certainly if we can have a meaningful election that is
the best course
14:37 < quaid> we have to be honest -- voter turnout may still suck
14:37 < ke4qqq> voter turnout in general does
14:37 < jjmcd> Perhaps we could lock up the swamp water supplier
14:38 < jsmith> Even if voter turnout is low... it's better to at least
go through the motions of having an election
14:38 < jjmcd> We seem to have a lot of marketing issues - I wonder if
we can identify some new outlets
14:38 < jjmcd> Roger that jsmith
14:38 -!- kital [n=Joerg_Si at fedora/kital] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:39 < ke4qqq> I don't think there is really any alternative
14:39 < Sparks> jjmcd: That should be the first thing the new chair does.
14:40 < quaid> yeah, we need elections regardless of voter turnout :)
14:41 < stickster> I'm not for a steering committee, as much as I am for
an accountable Docs leader.
14:41  * stickster sent overdue response to list
14:41 < ke4qqq> stickster: will you explain why?
14:41 -!- QuickStart
[n=QUICKSTA at pool-72-88-190-6.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:41 < ke4qqq> or should I read that in your email?
14:42 < stickster> ke4qqq: Either way is fine! :-)
14:42 < stickster> I simply think that our core group that participates
on a regular basis are the obvious choices for a steering committee.
14:42 < stickster> The number of votes is likely to be very small.
14:42 < quaid> hmm
14:42 < quaid> we could elect a leader who appoints a steering committee?
14:43 < Sparks> How many in the committee?
14:43 < stickster> I think there's no point in appointments, when the
choices could just as easily be "Would you help me by being responsible
for Task X?".
14:43 < ke4qqq> at the same time, what SPOF does that introduce??
14:43 < Sparks> I don't think we need more than a handful of people.
14:43 < ke4qqq> I tend to agree with that logic
14:43 < ke4qqq> but understand there is arequirement for us to have some
elected leadership
14:44 < stickster> Yes, there should be someone leading the Docs team,
to be certain. I compare this to the Artwork team or the BugZappers,
where there is
                   no SCo, but plenty is getting done.
14:44 -!- nphilipp [n=nils at nat/redhat/x-940142e42e036d9a] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:44 < stickster> FESCo on the other hand is in charge of an
exceptionally large slice of strategy.
14:44 < Sparks> What is the election requirement?  Just a leader or what?
14:45 < stickster> Consensus is good enough in this case, as long as
it's obtained through the list and not just the people who showed up
here for the IRC
                   meeting.
14:45 < stickster> Again, this is all my opinion as a Docs contributor.
14:45 < jjmcd> I wonder how many nascent leaders are out there on the
list but don't join the meetings because IRC is too old-fashioned, or
too-geeky or
               whatever
14:45 < quaid> it's fair view, though
14:45 < stickster> I'm perfectly willing to be shouted down if a lot of
people disagree.
14:45 < quaid> we did steering committee back then because that was the
best way
14:45 < quaid> things have evolved in the overall project, here too
14:45 < stickster> (or even a few people, for that matter)
14:45 < quaid> the main reason
14:45 < stickster> quaid: Right.
14:45 < quaid> for a steering committee formality
14:46 < quaid> is to give people "authority" to speak "for docs"
14:46 < quaid> and I think we have shown that people don't need that
title to speak authoritatively
14:46 < stickster> I agree with that. The point of a meritocracy is that
the authority comes from experience and accomplishment.
14:46 < quaid> otoh, the "one leader" does benefit from the title.
14:46 < stickster> Except in my case, where someone was fool enough to
hire me instead.
14:46 < quaid> cf. ianweller before and after "wiki czar" title -- he
sounds more authoritative, etc.
14:47 < quaid> (IMO)
14:47  * jsmith adds to what quaid just said, by saying "... and then
jsmith joined the steering committee, and it went to pot"
14:47 < jjmcd> yeah, good point.  To a degree, doesn't the doc lead do that
14:47 < quaid> stickster: actually, not to belabor, but I think your
hiring was a perfect example of meritocracy in action
14:47 < stickster> Right, and Ian got that title through consensus and
the recognition that he was putting a lot of energy into making the wiki
better.
14:47 < stickster> quaid: Stop with the flattery! (your check's in the
mail though)
14:48 < quaid> hmmm ... good stuff this
14:48 < quaid> so where to next?
14:48 < stickster> So again, my point is just that as long as Docs has
an accountable leader, selected by consensus of people who participate
in the work, I
                   think the potential is to create less of an
artificial barrier between "we who decide" and "we who do li'l tasks"
14:49 < quaid> stickster: so you are saying consensus is ok rather than
hold an election?
14:49 < stickster> Yes.
14:49  * quaid is concerned about how we do that and draw the line, etc.
14:49 < jjmcd> Concensus can be kind of mushy
14:49 -!- chitlesh_ [n=chitlesh at 217.136.58.241] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:49 < ke4qqq> stickster: is that ok with the sub-project guidelines
14:49 < ke4qqq> I though election was a must?
14:50 < stickster> ke4qqq: I'm talking specifically about *not*
continuing as a subproject
14:50 < stickster> Oops, scratch that.
14:50 < stickster> That was the mistaken thought I had in the shower
14:50 < stickster> this morning... then I realized I was thinking about
it the wrong way.
14:50 -!- kital [n=Joerg_Si at fedora/kital] has quit [Remote closed the
connection]
14:50 < stickster> A subproject has to have clear governance. Not "this
particular governance model X."
14:51 < jjmcd> Are there other distros that do docs better that we can
learn from?
14:51 < stickster>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Defining_projects#Fedora_Projects
14:51 < quaid> jjmcd: heh, yeah, RHEL, but I don't want to learn from
that model :)
14:51 < stickster> jjmcd: A question asked since time immemorial... we
should constantly be looking at other projects and learning something
(good or bad)
                   from them
14:52 < jjmcd> Admittedly, I haven't looked very hard
14:52  * stickster has a hard stop in a few minutes, so I'm shutting up now
14:52  * stickster waits for the market to devalue his $0.02
14:52 < quaid> ok, so the deal is ...
14:52 < quaid> we have a current suspension of the existing Docs rules
14:52 < quaid> Docs defined for itself how to fulfill the governance
requirement.
14:52 -!- stickster is now known as stickster_mtg
14:53 < quaid> we are free to decide how to proceed, within the
guidelines of having a clear governance for the rest of the world to see.
14:53 < quaid> what I'd like to do ...
14:53 < quaid> is decide _on_list_ how to proceed:
14:53 < quaid> * elections or no
14:53 < quaid> * steering or no
14:53 < quaid> * sig or sub-proj
14:53 < quaid> etc.
14:54 < quaid> does that make sense?
14:54 < Sparks> +1
14:54 < jjmcd> Yes, let's suck in some other voices
14:54 < Sparks> quaid: I think you already asked those questions in your
email to the list.  Maybe a poke to the community would help get some
responses.
14:55 < jjmcd> This clear enumeration of the issues is helpful
14:55 < quaid> can someone else ..
14:55 < quaid> take a stab at explaining this via the list?
14:55 < ke4qqq> lets just say if there are no objections we are
appointing Jono Bacon head of the docs project......would that get a
response? that said I
                like the clear delination - though I think the no
answers are messier than no - because then something else must be defined
14:55 < Sparks> quaid: On it
14:55 < quaid> Sparks: thx
14:57 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Who is going to say that?
14:58 < quaid> ok, time runneth short
14:58 < ke4qqq> you can - didn't you say you were on it?
14:58 < quaid> I think we have what we need on this topic, yes?
14:58 < Sparks> +1
14:58 -!- mxcarron [n=maxime at fedora/Pingoomax] has quit [Read error: 110
(Connection timed out)]
14:58 < ke4qqq> yes
14:58 < jjmcd> yep
14:59 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg - cms
update real quick like
14:59 < quaid> two voices so far:
14:59 < quaid> King_InuYasha has been talking with us on list and in IRC
14:59 < quaid> and danielsmw (iirc) and basil (via list) have expressed
interest
14:59 < quaid> in supporting any PHP solution.
14:59 < danielsmw> yup.
15:00 < quaid> (with Drupal up on the list somewhere.)
15:00  * herlo thinks Drupal is a fine choice if someone knows it well
15:00 < quaid> herlo: just duck when jsmith and ianweller are in the
room,that's all
15:00 -!- bpepple|lt [n=bpepple|@rrcs-70-60-2-247.central.biz.rr.com]
has joined #fedora-meeting
15:00 < quaid> the eyeballs popping from forks is pretty gross.
15:01 < jsmith> herlo: I refuse to use Drupal.  If we go with Drupal, I
promise not to touch it.
15:01  * jjmcd doesn't much care for drupal but is all for it if someone
is excited about it
15:01 < danielsmw> i've expressed interest in drupal before
15:01 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes at fedora/DemonJester] has quit ["leaving"]
15:01 < quaid> ok, that's the status :)
15:01 < jsmith> herlo: Can I be more clear?  I'd rather lick a toilet
seat than use Drupal for the CMS
15:01 < danielsmw> but never really for a good reason
15:01 < danielsmw> so i'm wondering
15:01 < danielsmw> while we have some people here
15:02 < herlo> jsmith: start licking
15:02 < danielsmw> what reasons should we avoid drupal, so that we can
add these to a list of characteristics we _should_ look for?
15:02 < quaid> ok
15:02 < danielsmw> s/should/shouldn't/
15:02 < quaid> since we are over our hour ...
15:02 < quaid> can we take the CMS discussion
15:02 < quaid> to #fedora-docs
15:02 < danielsmw> +1
15:02 < quaid> with the note for the record that ..
15:02 < quaid> "more discussion on list"
15:02 < jjmcd> R
15:02 < quaid> ok then
15:02 < quaid> R?
15:02 < herlo> I've stated my preference for WordPress and argue that
it's a good CMS, but Drupal can work.  I will take this offline, and
jsmith, I love
               you man!
15:02 < jjmcd> Roger
15:02 < quaid> cool
15:03 < jsmith> danielsmw: Security record, security record, and it's a
resource hog
15:03 < jsmith> danielsmw: Also, it doesn't play nicely with PostgreSQL
15:03 < jjmcd> Pefformance is my main beef
15:03 < quaid> ok, discussion continues on #fedora-docs s'il vous plait
15:03 < herlo> moving along?
15:03 < jjmcd> Oui
15:03 < quaid> closing I think yes
15:03 < quaid> 5
15:03 < quaid> 4
15:03 < quaid> 3
15:03 < quaid> 2
15:03 < quaid> 1
15:03 < quaid> 
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Jan 21 21:54:08 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:54:08 -0800
Subject: [no-reply-gw@fcp.surfsite.org: Re: Your favorite CMS running
	docs.fedoraproject.org?]
Message-ID: <20090121215408.GX20940@calliope.phig.org>

In case you didn't see this ...

I'm going to invite them to engage with us via fedora-docs-list now.

- Karsten

----- Forwarded message from SimonB  -----

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:19:05 +0100
To: fedora-list at redhat.com
From: SimonB 
Subject: Re: Your favorite CMS running docs.fedoraproject.org?
X-BeenThere: fedora-list at redhat.com

First, to the user who had a bad experience on the Zikula support forums - I really apologise.  We have had very good feedback on our support before, but I imagine a few people will always slip through the net.  I use Fedora as my development rig for Zikula, and Zikula will work on any recent linux/apache/php.

If I could make a slightly better case for Zikula than you've seen already:

1.  Zikula has a huge focus on security - we've had our code externally audited, and assessed by a start up selling automated security analysis.  In this test, we came out far ahead of our competitors.  As for security flaws, there have been none reported for over a year.

2.  We've had 4 people volunteer to maintain the site should you choose Zikula.  Our sites working group would likely see their responsiibility expand from *.zikula.org to include the Fedora docs site.

3.  Our upcoming version (1.2.0) will use gettext for translations.

4.  The core supports what we call Auth modules, which allow any Zikula installation to authenticate users against an external source such as LDAP.

5.  We have a workflow module and a finegrained permissions system with user groups.  In addition, we have an extremely powerful module called pagemaster, supporting revisions control, workflows, a completely customisable document structure and a whole bunch of other stuff.  We could almost certainly work in support for expiring content as well without making any code modifications to the module.

6.  Everything is templated, including almost every third party module. Easy to change look/feel with themes, or particular module output with template overrides.

7.  The templating system includes caching (either whole page, or page-component based)

If you need to know more, just ask.  I or some other representative of the project can drop into IRC if it helps.


-- 
This is an email sent via The Fedora Community Portal https://fcp.surfsite.org
https://fcp.surfsite.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=318936&topic_id=66529&forum=10#forumpost318936
If you think, this is spam, please report this to webmaster at fcp.surfsite.org and/or blame public at itbegins.co.uk.

-- 
fedora-list mailing list
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To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 21 22:48:14 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:48:14 -0500
Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2009-01-21 Summary
Message-ID: <4977A62E.5080906@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Attendees:
- -----------
quaid
stickster
sparks
ke4qqq
danielsmw
jjmcd
herlo
jsmith


Summary:
- ---------

* Release Notes for F11
The progress for the F11 Release Notes are behind.  The F10 beat writers
have been contacted via email to make sure they are going to continue
with their beats for F11.  Feedback has been positive.

It was decided that Sparks will have Release Notes duty for F11 and
jjmcd will have the duty for F12.

The Beats page[1] has been updated and individual beat pages will be
cleaned out and renamed later this week and a call for Beat writers will
commence.

* Meeting time change proposal
The topic of changing the meeting day/time was introduced.  A decision
was tabled pending the upcoming leadership change.  Those interested in
attending the meetings should go to the FDSCo meeting matrix[2] and put
their initials on times that would be good for them to meet.  The
purpose is to try to get the widest group involved in the meetings.

* Leadership (Re)fresh
Quaid brought up his email[3] that was sent to the f-docs-l earlier in
the week.  A discussion followed bring questions of elections,
appointments, committees, and single leaders with lieutenants.  The
discussion was ended because of time and three questions were asked by
quaid:
1) Elections or Appointments
2) Steering Committee or Single Leader with Lieutenants
3) SIG or Sub-Project

These questions will be asked in an email to f-docs-l.

* CMS Update
There has been limited input to the CMS solutions discussion.  There has
been input from King_InuYasha with a proposed solution and from
danielsnw and basil supporting any PHP solution.  Drupal came up and was
given passing remarks until jsmith gave a rather interesting remark of
what he'd do before he'd use it (time of 15:01 if you'd like to read the
transcripts).  The discussion was moved over to #fedora-docs due to the
lack of time on the channel.

The meeting was then closed.

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FDSCo_meeting_matrix
[3]
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-January/msg00109.html
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 21 23:03:03 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:03:03 -0500
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
Message-ID: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In today's meeting[1] we discussed new leadership in the Docs Project.
There was a mixed discussion about what kind of leadership we needed and
how to get them and the future of the Docs Project.  At the end of the
discussion Karsten left us with three questions that I'm now passing
along to the list.  Let's hear some ideas on this, please.

The three questions are:
1) Do we want to hold elections or just have someone appointed by our
current leadership to take the reigns.
2) Do we want a Steering Committee or Single Leader with Lieutenants to
direct this project (basically a single leader with help)?
3) And the biggest question is do we want the Docs Project to remain a
sub-project of Fedora or do we want to move to being a Special Interest
Group (SIG)?

These are big questions to answer so everyone's input will be especially
important.

[1]
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes#2009


Thanks,
Eric Christensen
E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1

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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 21 23:18:55 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:18:55 -0500
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
In-Reply-To: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

To kick off the discussions...

Eric Christensen wrote:
> The three questions are:
> 1) Do we want to hold elections or just have someone appointed by our
> current leadership to take the reigns.
I think elections are important but I also trust our current leadership
to make the decision.

> 2) Do we want a Steering Committee or Single Leader with Lieutenants to
> direct this project (basically a single leader with help)?
We are not a large project so I don't feel a committee is necessary.  I
also don't think a single person can be everything, and everywhere, all
the time.  A single person with "lieutenants" to help manage portions of
the project would be the best.  There would be a single person to point
to as having responsibility for the project but decisions and direction
could be gathered from a couple of people that can keep the momentum up.

> 3) And the biggest question is do we want the Docs Project to remain a
> sub-project of Fedora or do we want to move to being a Special Interest
> Group (SIG)?
I feel that the Docs Project should remain just that, a sub-project.  If
only by definition, I feel that SIGs are optional while projects are a
requirement or a need.  If only to generate the Release Notes, I feel
that the Docs Project is a need for Fedora.  Of course we do more than
the Release Notes so that bolsters my feeling that we are an essential
part of the Fedora Project.


Just my two cents worth.

Thanks,
Eric Christensen
E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1

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From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Wed Jan 21 23:30:53 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:30:53 +1000
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
In-Reply-To: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901211530i3344694atd33455dbdd4f2661@mail.gmail.com>

> The three questions are:
> 1) Do we want to hold elections or just have someone appointed by our
> current leadership to take the reigns.
> 2) Do we want a Steering Committee or Single Leader with Lieutenants to
> direct this project (basically a single leader with help)?
> 3) And the biggest question is do we want the Docs Project to remain a
> sub-project of Fedora or do we want to move to being a Special Interest
> Group (SIG)?

Maybe it would be better to concentrate on developing content, and
worry about all the other parts later?



From ianweller at gmail.com  Wed Jan 21 23:37:27 2009
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:37:27 -0600
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
In-Reply-To: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <20090121233727.GA2564@gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 06:03:03PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> [1]
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes#2009
> 
/me slaps Eric

-- 
Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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From public at itbegins.co.uk  Wed Jan 21 23:43:11 2009
From: public at itbegins.co.uk (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:43:11 -0000
Subject: Your favorite CMS running docs.fedoraproject.org?
In-Reply-To: <20090121215638.GY20940@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090116175434.GV7770@calliope.phig.org>
	
	<20090121215638.GY20940@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <00b701c97c22$09fbd0c0$1df37240$@co.uk>

Thanks Karsten.  I've asked a few others from our project to sign up for
this list so you'll get a better cross section of our community.  In the
meantime, are there any questions in particular you would like to ask?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Simon

Zikula Steering Committee

 

From: Karsten Wade [mailto:kwade at redhat.com] 
Sent: 21 January 2009 21:57
To: public at itbegins.co.uk; Community assistance, encouragement, and advice
for using Fedora.
Subject: Re: Your favorite CMS running docs.fedoraproject.org?

 

On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 07:19:05PM +0100, SimonB wrote:

> 2.  We've had 4 people volunteer to maintain the site should you
> choose Zikula.  Our sites working group would likely see their
> responsiibility expand from *.zikula.org to include the Fedora docs
> site.

Thanks for your reply Simon.  I think participation from someone who
knows the application is a pretty high priority, although I suppose
there are other showstoppers.

Can you and/or some folks who would be on the deployment and
maintenance team join us on fedora-docs-list to continue discussions?
I've forwarded your email there already.

http://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list

Thanks - Karsten
--
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41

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From ianweller at gmail.com  Wed Jan 21 23:45:09 2009
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:45:09 -0600
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
In-Reply-To: <20090121233727.GA2564@gmail.com>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<20090121233727.GA2564@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090121234509.GA3408@gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 05:37:27PM -0600, Ian Weller wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 06:03:03PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> > [1]
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes#2009
> > 
> /me slaps Eric
> 
/me unslaps Eric and is an idiot

-- 
Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Thu Jan 22 00:10:34 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:10:34 -0500
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<95f1114b0901211530i3344694atd33455dbdd4f2661@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5AE19BCA83A74E22AE259CA446F5C4FD@Aidan>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Murray McAllister" 
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 

Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.


> Maybe it would be better to concentrate on developing content, and
> worry about all the other parts later?

I like the way this guy thinks.

Unfortunately, we need someone to be sure it stays organized so we can 
actually publish our content, and our current leader is making his escape.

--McD



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Thu Jan 22 00:38:07 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:38:07 -0500
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <84849F6A2FE94769B69B02F4D0A35178@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Christensen" 
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 

Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.


> I feel that the Docs Project should remain just that, a sub-project.  If
> only by definition

I agree, although my reasons are more along the lines of "don't fix it if it 
ain't broke", and I see no serious brokenness.  Stuff we could improve, 
sure.  But broke, no.

--McD



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 04:01:58 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:01:58 +1000
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <20090121140131.GA30705@localhost.localdomain>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
	<20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>
	<20090116060021.GP7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<49752985.5050603@redhat.com>
	<20090121044756.GP20940@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090121140131.GA30705@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901212001n6dd15289jad8540809d619504@mail.gmail.com>

> Actually, the proper way to do that would be to not use DocBook XML as
> the declared dialect, but rather some subset of DocBook.  Publican
> should then provide a public DTD and RelaxNG schema so people's
> XML-aware editors could do the work for them, as opposed to putting
> the onus on users to remember which tags are usable and which aren't.

There is "/usr/share/publican/xsl/docbook.dtd.xml" that I load into
the KDE Advanced Text Editor that tells me when tags are legal or not.
I do not know if this file is in sync with what publican allows, or if
it is just the OASIS DTD.

Cheers.



From ccurran at redhat.com  Thu Jan 22 06:55:22 2009
From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:55:22 +1000
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
In-Reply-To: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <4978185A.9010500@redhat.com>

Eric Christensen wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> In today's meeting[1] we discussed new leadership in the Docs Project.
> There was a mixed discussion about what kind of leadership we needed and
> how to get them and the future of the Docs Project.  At the end of the
> discussion Karsten left us with three questions that I'm now passing
> along to the list.  Let's hear some ideas on this, please.
>
> The three questions are:
> 1) Do we want to hold elections or just have someone appointed by our
> current leadership to take the reigns.
>   
Elections are good but it should also be based off merit. We need a 
doer, a mover in the current community. Someone who makes lots of edits 
or submits lots of new content.
> 2) Do we want a Steering Committee or Single Leader with Lieutenants to
> direct this project (basically a single leader with help)?
>   
The project is small enough for one(1) leader. Anything more is a layer 
of bureaucracy that will slow us down. If it seems like too much of a 
task to manage 20 odd casual writers you need to redefine your concept 
of management.
> 3) And the biggest question is do we want the Docs Project to remain a
> sub-project of Fedora or do we want to move to being a Special Interest
> Group (SIG)?
>
>   
Stay a project.

Chris



From public at itbegins.co.uk  Thu Jan 22 11:31:33 2009
From: public at itbegins.co.uk (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:31:33 -0000
Subject: Zikula Running docs.fedoraproject.org
In-Reply-To: <4978185A.9010500@redhat.com>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us> <4978185A.9010500@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <001501c97c84$fc6f9c30$f54ed490$@co.uk>

Karsten,

Thanks for inviting me to this list, I did reply before but it appears my
message got lost somewhere.  I've asked others on our team to register in
order to widen the pool of expertise a little.

Do you have any questions for us, comments on how you'd like things to be
done or anything else you'd like to make us aware of?  I can try to give an
indication of how Zikula might satisfy your needs.  Please also check out
our site at www.zikula.org, there's a bit of extra information on there
(though we're in the process of a fairly major revision to the documentation
so things are a bit in flux).


Simon
Zikula Steering Committee



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 13:27:42 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 08:27:42 -0500
Subject: Contact for managing Fedora documentation?
In-Reply-To: <95f1114b0901212001n6dd15289jad8540809d619504@mail.gmail.com>
References: <496D3C2E.4020402@redhat.com>
	<20090114171855.GB7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<496FD57A.6010409@redhat.com>
	<20090116060021.GP7770@calliope.phig.org>
	<49752985.5050603@redhat.com>
	<20090121044756.GP20940@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090121140131.GA30705@localhost.localdomain>
	<95f1114b0901212001n6dd15289jad8540809d619504@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090122132742.GD5456@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 02:01:58PM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote:
> > Actually, the proper way to do that would be to not use DocBook XML as
> > the declared dialect, but rather some subset of DocBook.  Publican
> > should then provide a public DTD and RelaxNG schema so people's
> > XML-aware editors could do the work for them, as opposed to putting
> > the onus on users to remember which tags are usable and which aren't.
> 
> There is "/usr/share/publican/xsl/docbook.dtd.xml" that I load into
> the KDE Advanced Text Editor that tells me when tags are legal or not.
> I do not know if this file is in sync with what publican allows, or if
> it is just the OASIS DTD.

Holy moley, that may be just the thing I'm looking for.  As long as it
works in Emacs!

-- 
Paul W. Frields
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From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 13:29:21 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 08:29:21 -0500
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
In-Reply-To: <4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <20090122132921.GE5456@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 06:18:55PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> To kick off the discussions...
> 
> Eric Christensen wrote:
> > The three questions are:
> > 1) Do we want to hold elections or just have someone appointed by our
> > current leadership to take the reigns.
> I think elections are important but I also trust our current leadership
> to make the decision.
> 
> > 2) Do we want a Steering Committee or Single Leader with Lieutenants to
> > direct this project (basically a single leader with help)?
> We are not a large project so I don't feel a committee is necessary.  I
> also don't think a single person can be everything, and everywhere, all
> the time.  A single person with "lieutenants" to help manage portions of
> the project would be the best.  There would be a single person to point
> to as having responsibility for the project but decisions and direction
> could be gathered from a couple of people that can keep the momentum up.
> 
> > 3) And the biggest question is do we want the Docs Project to remain a
> > sub-project of Fedora or do we want to move to being a Special Interest
> > Group (SIG)?
> I feel that the Docs Project should remain just that, a sub-project.  If
> only by definition, I feel that SIGs are optional while projects are a
> requirement or a need.  If only to generate the Release Notes, I feel
> that the Docs Project is a need for Fedora.  Of course we do more than
> the Release Notes so that bolsters my feeling that we are an essential
> part of the Fedora Project.
> 
> 
> Just my two cents worth.

I agree with Eric.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 13:32:13 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 08:32:13 -0500
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
In-Reply-To: <5AE19BCA83A74E22AE259CA446F5C4FD@Aidan>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<95f1114b0901211530i3344694atd33455dbdd4f2661@mail.gmail.com>
	<5AE19BCA83A74E22AE259CA446F5C4FD@Aidan>
Message-ID: <20090122133213.GF5456@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 07:10:34PM -0500, John J. McDonough wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murray McAllister" 
> 
> To: "For participants of the Documentation Project"  
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 6:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
>
>
>> Maybe it would be better to concentrate on developing content, and
>> worry about all the other parts later?
>
> I like the way this guy thinks.
>
> Unfortunately, we need someone to be sure it stays organized so we can  
> actually publish our content, and our current leader is making his escape.

There does need to be an accountable person on whom other Fedora
teams, projects, and leaders can call for answers to questions or just
to find out status on specific things.  We can always just post to the
list in most cases, but it's important to know there is someone who
has taken on the duty to respond.

I think having the slimmest possible leadership does help take our
focus off non-essential issues like elections, and keep it where it
belongs, on moving Docs forward, developing content, and getting more
community involvement in those efforts.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 14:03:47 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:03:47 -0500
Subject: Zikula Running docs.fedoraproject.org
In-Reply-To: <001501c97c84$fc6f9c30$f54ed490$@co.uk>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us> <4978185A.9010500@redhat.com>
	<001501c97c84$fc6f9c30$f54ed490$@co.uk>
Message-ID: <20090122140347.GG5456@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 11:31:33AM -0000, Simon Birtwistle wrote:
> Karsten,
> 
> Thanks for inviting me to this list, I did reply before but it appears my
> message got lost somewhere.  I've asked others on our team to register in
> order to widen the pool of expertise a little.
> 
> Do you have any questions for us, comments on how you'd like things to be
> done or anything else you'd like to make us aware of?  I can try to give an
> indication of how Zikula might satisfy your needs.  Please also check out
> our site at www.zikula.org, there's a bit of extra information on there
> (though we're in the process of a fairly major revision to the documentation
> so things are a bit in flux).

I have little experience with CMS overall, but Zikula looks very
interesting.  I had some passing thoughts that may not be specific
enough to really be questions for the Zikula guys yet.  Anyone who
wants to add to or clarify them, please feel free!

* Integration with Fedora Account System for single sign on
  capabilities.  At the very least, we want to start with using the
  FAS for authentication.

* Any possibility in the future of a SCM <-> DocBook <-> XHTML content
  conduit?  That way people could write the content in wiki style,
  have it translated into rough DocBook and stored in an SCM
  elsewhere, and an editor in between could re-tag things as needed.
  This is a bit of pie-in-the-sky; the important thing right now is to
  have a workflow that allows for easier and more scalable publishing
  and translating efforts.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From public at itbegins.co.uk  Thu Jan 22 14:35:44 2009
From: public at itbegins.co.uk (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:35:44 -0000
Subject: Zikula Running docs.fedoraproject.org
In-Reply-To: <20090122140347.GG5456@localhost.localdomain>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<4978185A.9010500@redhat.com>	<001501c97c84$fc6f9c30$f54ed490$@co.uk>
	<20090122140347.GG5456@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <00e001c97c9e$b5992780$20cb7680$@co.uk>


> * Integration with Fedora Account System for single sign on
>   capabilities.  At the very least, we want to start with using the
>   FAS for authentication.

Easy to do, this is supported already in Zikula 1.  We can authenticate
against any external service (we already have an implementation for OpenID,
and a couple for university authentication systems in various places).

> * Any possibility in the future of a SCM <-> DocBook <-> XHTML content
>   conduit?  That way people could write the content in wiki style,
>   have it translated into rough DocBook and stored in an SCM
>   elsewhere, and an editor in between could re-tag things as needed.
>   This is a bit of pie-in-the-sky; the important thing right now is to
>   have a workflow that allows for easier and more scalable publishing
>   and translating efforts.

Writing a module for Zikula is pretty simple for a competent PHP developer,
so while nothing that we have at the moment would do this it could probably
be written by someone according to a spec.  We have several modules
supporting content with revisions control, and our next release will use
gettext for translation of the interface components.



From oglesbyzm at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 15:04:23 2009
From: oglesbyzm at gmail.com (Zach Oglesby)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:04:23 +0100
Subject: Self Introduction
Message-ID: <20090122150423.GA25244@zaphod.local.lan>

My name is Zach Oglesby, and I have been using various distro since around 2001. I have never really contributed to any distribution but I ran a website for teenage Linux users from 2002-2006, with weekly reviews and news updates. I also recently joined the ambassadors group but I currently live in Spain and do not speak the Spanish so it makes it hard for me to do much outside of my work.

I am a decent programmer but lack skills when it comes to GUI's. Online I am a people person (very different in person), and am willing to work with anyone on whatever needs to be done.

The docs project is a good fit for me because free software is the most important achievement of the computer age, and good documentation makes great software even better.

GPG Key - 1378F79F
Fingerprint - 9639 6A0C 55BE 7020 9D93  E4E2 22AE 2F5C 1378 F79F
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From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 15:20:05 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 10:20:05 -0500
Subject: Self Introduction
In-Reply-To: <20090122150423.GA25244@zaphod.local.lan>
References: <20090122150423.GA25244@zaphod.local.lan>
Message-ID: <20090122152005.GA19455@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 04:04:23PM +0100, Zach Oglesby wrote:
> 
> My name is Zach Oglesby, and I have been using various distro since
> around 2001. I have never really contributed to any distribution but
> I ran a website for teenage Linux users from 2002-2006, with weekly
> reviews and news updates. I also recently joined the ambassadors
> group but I currently live in Spain and do not speak the Spanish so
> it makes it hard for me to do much outside of my work.
> 
> I am a decent programmer but lack skills when it comes to
> GUI's. Online I am a people person (very different in person), and
> am willing to work with anyone on whatever needs to be done.
> 
> The docs project is a good fit for me because free software is the
> most important achievement of the computer age, and good
> documentation makes great software even better.

It's great to meet you, Zach.  I saw that you came by our IRC channel
(#fedora-docs on irc.freenode.net) and introduced yourself as well.
Perhaps some of the work spinning up around the CMS interests you?
Any PHP experience?

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From operator at zikula.tv  Thu Jan 22 16:00:48 2009
From: operator at zikula.tv (David Nelson)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:00:48 +0800
Subject: Self Introduction
In-Reply-To: <20090122152005.GA19455@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090122150423.GA25244@zaphod.local.lan>
	<20090122152005.GA19455@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <146fc3c60901220800k336b0597i25c75824681c224@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I just wanted to introduce myself, because I just signed up to your
list on account of the possibility of Zikula handling your docs CMS
(I'm just observing). I'd be delighted personally. Zikula is my
favorite Web platform and FC has always been my favorite roll of
Linux. I have FC9 on dual boot here. Plus I'm a "docs guy" too, if you
like, because I'm just starting work on a webmaster guide for Zikula
over at zikula.tv.

So I'll be watching the thread with interest to try and learn how you
guys work and what your culture is like.

I can't possibly sign off without saying that I really believe Zikula
would be good for you and you would be good for Zikula. Zikula can
provide a great answer to your need. Zikula rocks! :)

-- 
David Nelson
Web: http://zikula.tv



From hedin.pr at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 16:46:40 2009
From: hedin.pr at gmail.com (Hedin)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:46:40 +0600
Subject: Self-Introduction
Message-ID: 

My name is Oleg, I'm from Russia.

I'm the leader of small group of russian web programmers, so I'm
specializing in Java, C++, PHP and other common languages and
technologies.
Also can draw 2D art using Photoshop or Gimp (depending on os and
platform) and create pretty looking web pages.

I can not speak and write in English because I have no practice in it.
But I understand this language and can read and translate technical
documentation very well. It's because I read docs such as MSDN or unix
mans all my life.

I want to translate english docs to russian, and help russian people
to understand using of Fedora as a desktop OS.
Btw, I just joined to Russian Fedora community (http://russianfedora.ru).

wbr,
Oleg Chiruhin,
Russia, Novosibirsk region, Novosibirsk.

GPG: F8334007
Fingerprint: CBDC 4DF8 CCFD E5BA D543  EF3B A1E9 6090 F833 4007



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 17:03:45 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:03:45 -0500
Subject: Self-Introduction
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20090122170345.GF4726@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 10:46:40PM +0600, Hedin wrote:
> My name is Oleg, I'm from Russia.
> 
> I'm the leader of small group of russian web programmers, so I'm
> specializing in Java, C++, PHP and other common languages and
> technologies.
> Also can draw 2D art using Photoshop or Gimp (depending on os and
> platform) and create pretty looking web pages.
> 
> I can not speak and write in English because I have no practice in it.
> But I understand this language and can read and translate technical
> documentation very well. It's because I read docs such as MSDN or unix
> mans all my life.
> 
> I want to translate english docs to russian, and help russian people
> to understand using of Fedora as a desktop OS.
> Btw, I just joined to Russian Fedora community (http://russianfedora.ru).

Oleg, you might be interested also in joining our Fedora L10n
(Translation) team.  Their list is found here:

https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list 

They specialize in translating documentation and software into many
lanugages including (of course!) Russian.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From poelstra at redhat.com  Thu Jan 22 20:13:23 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:13:23 -0800
Subject: Alpha Release Readiness
Message-ID: <4978D363.3080307@redhat.com>

With the Alpha Release for Fedora 11 scheduled for Tuesday, February 3, 
2009, this means it is time to meet again with representatives from each 
of the teams to have our release readiness meeting.  We usually have 
this meeting at 18:00 UTC (13:00 EST) the Wednesday before, which means 
next Wednesday, January 28, 2009, is the day.

On Monday, January 26, 2009, I will be sending out the dial-in 
information and a meeting reminder to all the attendees.

In the meantime I need to know who will be representing your group at 
these meetings for the Fedora 11 meetings.  Usually this is the 
designated team leader, but I wanted to ask to make sure you coordinate 
within your team to make sure someone comes.  When responding to this 
list, please CC me so that I am sure to see the reply.

This message is going out to the respective mailings lists for these groups:

Ambassadors
Artwork/Design
Documentation
FESCo
Infrastructure
Marketing
Quality
Release Engineering
Translation
Websites

Thanks,
John



From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 23:54:49 2009
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason Taylor)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:54:49 -0500
Subject: Leave of absence....
Message-ID: <23b1fe6e0901221554i17c369dbg2313b6dbc6bbd221@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Not that I am a central figure or anything even remotely close :) but
I figured I should drop a line to the list since I haven't been around
much lately. This is due to current job commitments and getting ready
for the move to a new job and living area. I would love to say I could
help with the current reorganization and project work but that
unfortunately isn't going to happen unless someone figures out a way
to get more hours out of a day. :) I am currently listed for a couple
release note beats which I am not going to be able to keep up with.
Hopefully things will settle down in the next 4 months or so...

-Jason



From eric at christensenplace.us  Fri Jan 23 01:13:22 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:13:22 -0500
Subject: Alpha Release Readiness
In-Reply-To: <4978D363.3080307@redhat.com>
References: <4978D363.3080307@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <497919B2.20304@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Karsten,
I can handle this if you like.

- -Eric


John Poelstra wrote:
> With the Alpha Release for Fedora 11 scheduled for Tuesday, February 3,
> 2009, this means it is time to meet again with representatives from each
> of the teams to have our release readiness meeting.  We usually have
> this meeting at 18:00 UTC (13:00 EST) the Wednesday before, which means
> next Wednesday, January 28, 2009, is the day.
> 
> On Monday, January 26, 2009, I will be sending out the dial-in
> information and a meeting reminder to all the attendees.
> 
> In the meantime I need to know who will be representing your group at
> these meetings for the Fedora 11 meetings.  Usually this is the
> designated team leader, but I wanted to ask to make sure you coordinate
> within your team to make sure someone comes.  When responding to this
> list, please CC me so that I am sure to see the reply.
> 
> This message is going out to the respective mailings lists for these
> groups:
> 
> Ambassadors
> Artwork/Design
> Documentation
> FESCo
> Infrastructure
> Marketing
> Quality
> Release Engineering
> Translation
> Websites
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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From eric at christensenplace.us  Fri Jan 23 03:26:18 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:26:18 -0500
Subject: CMS Template
Message-ID: <497938DA.40100@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I created a template[1] that we can use to "grade" each CMS option.  If
an option looks feasible please use the template so we can keep track of
all the choices.  We can use these to choose a solution in the near future.

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_CMS_Template


Thanks,
Eric Christensen
E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1

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Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Fri Jan 23 14:47:53 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:47:53 -0500
Subject: CMS Template
References: <497938DA.40100@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Christensen" 
To: "Fedora Docs List" 
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:26 PM
Subject: CMS Template


> I created a template[1] that we can use to "grade" each CMS option.

Confession -- I'm a Six Sigma geek.

I wonder if we shouldn't build a Pugh matrix.  I have to admit, I haven't 
been really engaged in the whole CMS thing.  I figure if we can get a team 
that is emotional about one or another I'll live with whatever they are 
willing to support.

But it appears that no such group is emerging, and we will need to actually 
evaluate the alternatives and make a selection.  In my experience, nothing 
helps focus the issues like a Pugh matrix.  The downside is that without the 
whole "critically examine the data" culture of SS, it is tempting to just go 
by the numbers, which sometimes can be a mistake.

--McD



From public at itbegins.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 16:17:33 2009
From: public at itbegins.co.uk (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:17:33 -0000
Subject: CMS Template
In-Reply-To: 
References: <497938DA.40100@christensenplace.us>
	
Message-ID: <002001c97d76$190e4bb0$4b2ae310$@co.uk>

I am sure we at Zikula could provide a test installation for interested
parties to test, if you feel that would help the evaluation process.


Simon

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fedora-docs-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-docs-list-
> bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of John J. McDonough
> Sent: 23 January 2009 14:48
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> Subject: Re: CMS Template
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Christensen" 
> To: "Fedora Docs List" 
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:26 PM
> Subject: CMS Template
> 
> 
> > I created a template[1] that we can use to "grade" each CMS option.
> 
> Confession -- I'm a Six Sigma geek.
> 
> I wonder if we shouldn't build a Pugh matrix.  I have to admit, I
> haven't
> been really engaged in the whole CMS thing.  I figure if we can get a
> team
> that is emotional about one or another I'll live with whatever they are
> willing to support.
> 
> But it appears that no such group is emerging, and we will need to
> actually
> evaluate the alternatives and make a selection.  In my experience,
> nothing
> helps focus the issues like a Pugh matrix.  The downside is that
> without the
> whole "critically examine the data" culture of SS, it is tempting to
> just go
> by the numbers, which sometimes can be a mistake.
> 
> --McD
> 
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1911 - Release Date:
> 23/01/2009 07:28



From eric at christensenplace.us  Fri Jan 23 16:20:00 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 11:20:00 -0500
Subject: CMS Template
In-Reply-To: <002001c97d76$190e4bb0$4b2ae310$@co.uk>
References: <497938DA.40100@christensenplace.us>	
	<002001c97d76$190e4bb0$4b2ae310$@co.uk>
Message-ID: <4979EE30.8010508@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Simon,
Are you on IRC?  I'd like to chat with you if possible.

Eric

Simon Birtwistle wrote:
> I am sure we at Zikula could provide a test installation for interested
> parties to test, if you feel that would help the evaluation process.
> 
> 
> Simon
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: fedora-docs-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-docs-list-
>> bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of John J. McDonough
>> Sent: 23 January 2009 14:48
>> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
>> Subject: Re: CMS Template
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Eric Christensen" 
>> To: "Fedora Docs List" 
>> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:26 PM
>> Subject: CMS Template
>>
>>
>>> I created a template[1] that we can use to "grade" each CMS option.
>> Confession -- I'm a Six Sigma geek.
>>
>> I wonder if we shouldn't build a Pugh matrix.  I have to admit, I
>> haven't
>> been really engaged in the whole CMS thing.  I figure if we can get a
>> team
>> that is emotional about one or another I'll live with whatever they are
>> willing to support.
>>
>> But it appears that no such group is emerging, and we will need to
>> actually
>> evaluate the alternatives and make a selection.  In my experience,
>> nothing
>> helps focus the issues like a Pugh matrix.  The downside is that
>> without the
>> whole "critically examine the data" culture of SS, it is tempting to
>> just go
>> by the numbers, which sometimes can be a mistake.
>>
>> --McD
>>
>> --
>> fedora-docs-list mailing list
>> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
>> To unsubscribe:
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1911 - Release Date:
>> 23/01/2009 07:28
> 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Jan 23 16:36:06 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 11:36:06 -0500
Subject: Leave of absence....
In-Reply-To: <23b1fe6e0901221554i17c369dbg2313b6dbc6bbd221@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23b1fe6e0901221554i17c369dbg2313b6dbc6bbd221@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090123163606.GC4734@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 06:54:49PM -0500, Jason Taylor wrote:
> 
> Not that I am a central figure or anything even remotely close :) but
> I figured I should drop a line to the list since I haven't been around
> much lately. This is due to current job commitments and getting ready
> for the move to a new job and living area. I would love to say I could
> help with the current reorganization and project work but that
> unfortunately isn't going to happen unless someone figures out a way
> to get more hours out of a day. :) I am currently listed for a couple
> release note beats which I am not going to be able to keep up with.
> Hopefully things will settle down in the next 4 months or so...

Every contributor counts Jason!  All your past work is appreciated,
and of course we understand if you've got other commitments that have
to take priority.  We all give what we can, when we can.

Don't forget about us when things calm down for you, and we'll love to
have you back here working with us anytime you're able.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From public at itbegins.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 16:36:44 2009
From: public at itbegins.co.uk (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:36:44 -0000
Subject: CMS Template
In-Reply-To: <4979EE30.8010508@christensenplace.us>
References: <497938DA.40100@christensenplace.us>		<002001c97d76$190e4bb0$4b2ae310$@co.uk>
	<4979EE30.8010508@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <005901c97d78$c71995a0$554cc0e0$@co.uk>

I've joined fedora-docs as zk-Simon.


Simon

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fedora-docs-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-docs-list-
> bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Eric Christensen
> Sent: 23 January 2009 16:20
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> Subject: Re: CMS Template
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Simon,
> Are you on IRC?  I'd like to chat with you if possible.
> 
> Eric
> 
> Simon Birtwistle wrote:
> > I am sure we at Zikula could provide a test installation for
> interested
> > parties to test, if you feel that would help the evaluation process.
> >
> >
> > Simon
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: fedora-docs-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-docs-list-
> >> bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of John J. McDonough
> >> Sent: 23 January 2009 14:48
> >> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> >> Subject: Re: CMS Template
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Eric Christensen" 
> >> To: "Fedora Docs List" 
> >> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:26 PM
> >> Subject: CMS Template
> >>
> >>
> >>> I created a template[1] that we can use to "grade" each CMS option.
> >> Confession -- I'm a Six Sigma geek.
> >>
> >> I wonder if we shouldn't build a Pugh matrix.  I have to admit, I
> >> haven't
> >> been really engaged in the whole CMS thing.  I figure if we can get
> a
> >> team
> >> that is emotional about one or another I'll live with whatever they
> are
> >> willing to support.
> >>
> >> But it appears that no such group is emerging, and we will need to
> >> actually
> >> evaluate the alternatives and make a selection.  In my experience,
> >> nothing
> >> helps focus the issues like a Pugh matrix.  The downside is that
> >> without the
> >> whole "critically examine the data" culture of SS, it is tempting to
> >> just go
> >> by the numbers, which sometimes can be a mistake.
> >>
> >> --McD
> >>
> >> --
> >> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> >> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> >> To unsubscribe:
> >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> >>
> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1911 - Release Date:
> >> 23/01/2009 07:28
> >
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> 
> iEYEARECAAYFAkl57i4ACgkQfQTSQL0MFMF98wCfRaMR00i8rvybyWVIXqACggCx
> v6sAni2KwOIQZ5Moguafh49P4mfwLwCZ
> =hoJp
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1911 - Release Date:
> 23/01/2009 07:28



From eric at christensenplace.us  Fri Jan 23 20:01:12 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:01:12 -0500
Subject: CMS Option: Zikula
Message-ID: <497A2208.40304@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Earlier today I had the chance to talk with Simon, who represents
Zikula, about his CMS solution.  I did the interview on IRC on
#fedora-docs so it could be seen by all on IRC and so I could record the
conversation for everyone to read.

I created a wiki page[1] on Zikula and asked most of the information
that was requested (my time was short).  Simon provided good answers to
all the questions which went a lot further than the check marks that I
used on the wiki.  I invite everyone to read the transcript[2] and pose
additional questions or comments to the list.  Simon has subscribed to
the list so he can probably field questions by email.

All CMS options are on the wiki[3].  Of course this is the only one that
has come to light with a lot of energy.  If anyone else would like to
suggest a CMS solution please complete a CMS template[4] so we can make
an informed decision.

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_CMS_Option
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_IRC_Chat_Interview
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation_CMS_Option
[4] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_CMS_Template


Thanks,
Eric Christensen
Fedora Docs Project

Fedora Talk: 5102043                  Phone: 919-424-0063 x 5102043
E-Mail/SIP Address: sparks at fedoraproject.org
IRC: Sparks on freenode.net

GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=W1oZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Fri Jan 23 22:09:24 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 03:39:24 +0530
Subject: Fedora 11 Alpha Release Notes - Help Required
Message-ID: <497A4014.20503@fedoraproject.org>

Hi

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Alpha_release_notes

If you spot any major changes in between Fedora 10 and Fedora 11 alpha 
about to be released shortly, feel free to fill in the details. We will 
be highlighting new features, major bug fixes and things that need 
explicit testing.  Thanks.

If you are running rawhide, it would be useful to a couple of 
screenshots highlighting major features.

Rahul



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Jan 23 22:25:22 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:25:22 -0500
Subject: CMS Option: Zikula
In-Reply-To: <497A2208.40304@christensenplace.us>
References: <497A2208.40304@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 03:01:12PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> 
> Earlier today I had the chance to talk with Simon, who represents
> Zikula, about his CMS solution.  I did the interview on IRC on
> #fedora-docs so it could be seen by all on IRC and so I could record the
> conversation for everyone to read.
> 
> I created a wiki page[1] on Zikula and asked most of the information
> that was requested (my time was short).  Simon provided good answers to
> all the questions which went a lot further than the check marks that I
> used on the wiki.  I invite everyone to read the transcript[2] and pose
> additional questions or comments to the list.  Simon has subscribed to
> the list so he can probably field questions by email.
> 
> All CMS options are on the wiki[3].  Of course this is the only one that
> has come to light with a lot of energy.  If anyone else would like to
> suggest a CMS solution please complete a CMS template[4] so we can make
> an informed decision.
> 
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_CMS_Option
> [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_IRC_Chat_Interview
> [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation_CMS_Option
> [4] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_CMS_Template

I think we should also be considering the other major players in the
CMS game, if there are people available to deploy and maintain them.
Drupal and Joomla! immediately come to mind, the latter especially
because it actually has some DocBook XML support.  Features aren't
particularly compelling, though, if we have no one around to help with
the maintenance.

None of this has any bearing on the quality of Zikula, which I'm sure
is excellent.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Jan 23 22:31:40 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:31:40 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 Alpha Release Notes - Help Required
In-Reply-To: <497A4014.20503@fedoraproject.org>
References: <497A4014.20503@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <20090123223140.GG15488@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 03:39:24AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Alpha_release_notes
>
> If you spot any major changes in between Fedora 10 and Fedora 11 alpha  
> about to be released shortly, feel free to fill in the details. We will  
> be highlighting new features, major bug fixes and things that need  
> explicit testing.  Thanks.
>
> If you are running rawhide, it would be useful to a couple of screenshots 
> highlighting major features.

Thanks for starting this page.  I transcribed your input from
fedora-devel-list and did the normal editing.  Are any of the folks
working on release notes or Docs in general subscribed to
fedora-devel-list and/or fedora-test-list?  If so, major user-visible
differences should be noted here.

We don't need to note:
* package version changes, unless they're of major importance
* artwork changes, which are likely to be changed or refined further

We do need to note:
* new and visible features
* specific, substantial regressions or functional changes that will
surprise testers
* any user interaction required to activate new features, to encourage
more testing

There are probably other considerations here too.  Use good judgement
and if in doubt, put it in.  It's far easier to edit things out than
to find what we've missed!  Thanks to everyone for helping out.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Fri Jan 23 22:35:27 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:35:27 -0500
Subject: CMS Option: Zikula
In-Reply-To: <20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
References: <497A2208.40304@christensenplace.us>
	<20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <497A462F.6070609@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> I think we should also be considering the other major players in the
> CMS game, if there are people available to deploy and maintain them.
> Drupal and Joomla! immediately come to mind, the latter especially
> because it actually has some DocBook XML support.  Features aren't
> particularly compelling, though, if we have no one around to help with
> the maintenance.
> 
> None of this has any bearing on the quality of Zikula, which I'm sure
> is excellent.
> 
I completely agree.  Herlo talked to someone about WordPress earlier
this afternoon (review should be coming later the weekend).  The more
information we have about the choices out there means we'll be better
prepared to make decision.

If anyone knows someone with these other CMSs it would be good to talk
with them and ask them the questions.


Thanks,
Eric Christensen

Fedora Talk: 5102043                  Phone: 919-424-0063 x 5102043
E-Mail/SIP Address: sparks at fedoraproject.org
IRC: Sparks on freenode.net

GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=eUAA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Jan 23 22:47:23 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:47:23 -0500
Subject: CMS Option: Zikula
In-Reply-To: <497A462F.6070609@christensenplace.us>
References: <497A2208.40304@christensenplace.us>
	<20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
	<497A462F.6070609@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <20090123224723.GI15488@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 05:35:27PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > I think we should also be considering the other major players in the
> > CMS game, if there are people available to deploy and maintain them.
> > Drupal and Joomla! immediately come to mind, the latter especially
> > because it actually has some DocBook XML support.  Features aren't
> > particularly compelling, though, if we have no one around to help with
> > the maintenance.
> > 
> > None of this has any bearing on the quality of Zikula, which I'm sure
> > is excellent.
> > 
> I completely agree.  Herlo talked to someone about WordPress earlier
> this afternoon (review should be coming later the weekend).  The more
> information we have about the choices out there means we'll be better
> prepared to make decision.
> 
> If anyone knows someone with these other CMSs it would be good to talk
> with them and ask them the questions.

It's interesting you bring up WordPress, because I think there are
Fedora folks (and maybe Red Hat folks too) who have prior contact with
people at Automattic.  I do know there are sites out there using
WordPress as a CMS when the required workflow is the right fit.  I've
been using it since 2002 myself and I can see where it would be a good
fit.  It's also already packaged for EPEL and Fedora, actively
maintained, and has a thriving community.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Fri Jan 23 22:56:20 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 06:56:20 +0800
Subject: CMS Feature: Integration with FAS?
Message-ID: <1232751380.29255.96.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I recall one of the required features of any CMS for the Docs project is
integration with FAS.  Is this something that is going to require
customization, or does FAS use some kind of a standard interface or
protocol, such as LDAP or OpenID or the like?
 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From herlo1 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 23 23:19:57 2009
From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:19:57 -0700
Subject: CMS Option: Zikula
In-Reply-To: <20090123224723.GI15488@localhost.localdomain>
References: <497A2208.40304@christensenplace.us>
	<20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
	<497A462F.6070609@christensenplace.us>
	<20090123224723.GI15488@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Paul W. Frields  wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 05:35:27PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Paul W. Frields wrote:
>> > I think we should also be considering the other major players in the
>> > CMS game, if there are people available to deploy and maintain them.
>> > Drupal and Joomla! immediately come to mind, the latter especially
>> > because it actually has some DocBook XML support.  Features aren't
>> > particularly compelling, though, if we have no one around to help with
>> > the maintenance.
>> >
>> > None of this has any bearing on the quality of Zikula, which I'm sure
>> > is excellent.
>> >
>> I completely agree.  Herlo talked to someone about WordPress earlier
>> this afternoon (review should be coming later the weekend).  The more
>> information we have about the choices out there means we'll be better
>> prepared to make decision.
>>
>> If anyone knows someone with these other CMSs it would be good to talk
>> with them and ask them the questions.
>
> It's interesting you bring up WordPress, because I think there are
> Fedora folks (and maybe Red Hat folks too) who have prior contact with
> people at Automattic.  I do know there are sites out there using
> WordPress as a CMS when the required workflow is the right fit.  I've
> been using it since 2002 myself and I can see where it would be a good
> fit.  It's also already packaged for EPEL and Fedora, actively
> maintained, and has a thriving community.
>
> --
> Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
>  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
>  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
>  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>

The guy I talked with lives in Utah and works at Automattic, he's
quite knowledgeable but admits he's not on the core team.  If we
decide to go this route, (or at least when it's whittled down) if
WordPress still fits, I can ask him to bring in a core dev.

Clint



From ianweller at gmail.com  Fri Jan 23 23:21:16 2009
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:21:16 -0600
Subject: CMS Feature: Integration with FAS?
In-Reply-To: <1232751380.29255.96.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1232751380.29255.96.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090123232116.GA14755@gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 06:56:20AM +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> I recall one of the required features of any CMS for the Docs project is
> integration with FAS.  Is this something that is going to require
> customization, or does FAS use some kind of a standard interface or
> protocol, such as LDAP or OpenID or the like?
>  
FAS does have an OpenID interface where the user can authenticate
through http://fasname.id.fedoraproject.org/.

-- 
Ian Weller                   http://ianweller.org
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
"Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet."
  ~ Douglas Adams
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From herlo1 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 23 23:22:27 2009
From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:22:27 -0700
Subject: CMS Feature: Integration with FAS?
In-Reply-To: <1232751380.29255.96.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1232751380.29255.96.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Basil Mohamed Gohar
 wrote:
> I recall one of the required features of any CMS for the Docs project is
> integration with FAS.  Is this something that is going to require
> customization, or does FAS use some kind of a standard interface or
> protocol, such as LDAP or OpenID or the like?

They do, at least in python, Fedora Client fits the bill.

http://lmacken.fedorapeople.org/python-fedora/client.html

Clint



From a.badger at gmail.com  Fri Jan 23 23:37:48 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:37:48 -0800
Subject: CMS Feature: Integration with FAS?
In-Reply-To: <1232751380.29255.96.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1232751380.29255.96.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <497A54CC.40508@gmail.com>

Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> I recall one of the required features of any CMS for the Docs project is
> integration with FAS.  Is this something that is going to require
> customization, or does FAS use some kind of a standard interface or
> protocol, such as LDAP or OpenID or the like?
>  
There is an OpenID provider in FAS.  The problem is that openid can only
do authentication, not authorization.  If we want to store group
information in FAS (and we do... but it may or may not be essential)
then we need to go beyond OpenID.

FAS provides a JSON API for people to query.  That's how mediawiki and
the TG web applications work.  koji and the actual servers on which
fedora infrastructure runs are synced from the fas server on an hourly
cron job.

If possible, using the JSON API is the way to go.

-Toshio

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From a.badger at gmail.com  Sat Jan 24 00:55:03 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:55:03 -0800
Subject: CMS Option: Zikula
In-Reply-To: <20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
References: <497A2208.40304@christensenplace.us>
	<20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <497A66E7.1010402@gmail.com>

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> I think we should also be considering the other major players in the
> CMS game, if there are people available to deploy and maintain them.
> Drupal and Joomla! immediately come to mind, the latter especially
> because it actually has some DocBook XML support.  Features aren't
> particularly compelling, though, if we have no one around to help with
> the maintenance.
> 
One of the things I didn't know until I did some browsing around their
website is that Zikula started off as PostNuke but that they changed the
name in June.  So they are a long term player in the CMS market.

> None of this has any bearing on the quality of Zikula, which I'm sure
> is excellent.
> 
I was impressed by a few of the things I've learned since this morning
:-)  The answers to how Proactive the security is was a nice change from
the usual thoughts I've seen::
   https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_IRC_Chat_Interview#t12:20

Here's my naive search of cve.mitre.org for issues reported in 2008.
Note that some people would say to exclude plugins from this but my view
is that we're going to be running plugins as part of our deployment and
we'll want to know if we can expand our capabilities by pulling in
functionality via plugins without compromising security.  So knowing
this does a little towards understanding whether the Core provides an
API for writing secure plugins and the plugin community is security
minded as well as Core developers.  And like I say, this is naive :-)

91 Joomla -- Lots of plugins a few in core
79 Drupal -- Lots of plugins a few in core
60 Wordpress -- Lots of plugins, a few in core
53 Mambo --Lots of plugins, at least one in core
4 zikula + postnuke -- 1 in Core, 3 in plugins
1 midgard
0 zikula
0 enano

For reference, mediawiki, which we think has an acceptable
security-to-benefit ratio, had 8 vulnerabilities reported in 2008 using
the same naive count.

-Toshio

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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Sat Jan 24 09:22:25 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:22:25 +0800
Subject: CMS Feature: Integration with FAS?
In-Reply-To: <497A54CC.40508@gmail.com>
References: <1232751380.29255.96.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<497A54CC.40508@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1232788945.4887.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-01-23 at 15:37 -0800, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:


> There is an OpenID provider in FAS.  The problem is that openid can only
> do authentication, not authorization.  If we want to store group
> information in FAS (and we do... but it may or may not be essential)
> then we need to go beyond OpenID.
> 
> FAS provides a JSON API for people to query.  That's how mediawiki and
> the TG web applications work.  koji and the actual servers on which
> fedora infrastructure runs are synced from the fas server on an hourly
> cron job.
> 
> If possible, using the JSON API is the way to go.

So FAS does its own authorization & authentication, rather than using
another system to which we can plug in?
 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From a.badger at gmail.com  Sat Jan 24 09:23:14 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:23:14 -0800
Subject: CMS Feature: Integration with FAS?
In-Reply-To: <1232788945.4887.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1232751380.29255.96.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<497A54CC.40508@gmail.com>
	<1232788945.4887.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <497ADE02.8000900@gmail.com>

Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-01-23 at 15:37 -0800, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> 
>> There is an OpenID provider in FAS.  The problem is that openid can only
>> do authentication, not authorization.  If we want to store group
>> information in FAS (and we do... but it may or may not be essential)
>> then we need to go beyond OpenID.
>>
>> FAS provides a JSON API for people to query.  That's how mediawiki and
>> the TG web applications work.  koji and the actual servers on which
>> fedora infrastructure runs are synced from the fas server on an hourly
>> cron job.
>>
>> If possible, using the JSON API is the way to go.
> So FAS does its own authorization & authentication, rather than using
> another system to which we can plug in?

Right.  FAS == Fedora Account System.  It's the canonical place for all
account information.  Things that need authentication and authorization
are supposed to get the data from it.

-Toshio

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From public at itbegins.co.uk  Sat Jan 24 17:22:26 2009
From: public at itbegins.co.uk (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:22:26 -0000
Subject: CMS Option: Zikula
In-Reply-To: <497A66E7.1010402@gmail.com>
References: <497A2208.40304@christensenplace.us>	<20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
	<497A66E7.1010402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007701c97e48$540d6980$fc283c80$@co.uk>

As the representative of Zikula on this list I wanted to follow up the discussion I had with Eric yesterday.

>From what I could see, the area to focus on is the content publishing workflow, and to that end I've been evaluating some content management modules for Zikula.  I've narrowed it down to a couple of options, both of which have revisions control and may suit you to a greater or lesser degree.  If neither option suits we could either modify and existing module or create something new.

The first 'PageMaster' allows the creation of custom document types.  These can contain any number of fields (e.g. you could add a multi select box for applicable versions or a document upload box for a PDF version, in addition to title and content fields etc).  It's also possible to insert images and documents inline from a number of the media management modules mentioned later.  There is also full revisions control.

The second module is 'Content'.  This module allows you to construct pages with various components according to pre defined templates.  Components can be blocks of text, images, headings, tables of contents, slideshows or a whole host of other things.  Adding more component types is also easy, and all pages have a full revisions control and a translations interface for adding multilingual versions of pages.

Both these modules come with a choice of visual editors - we have one module that provides a choice of Xinha, TinyMCE, FCKeditor, openWYSIWYG and NicEdit - you can use different editors in different modules if you wish.


On the media management side, there's MediaAttach, which provides upload and storage capability for all sorts of different media types, many with preview functionality.  These can then be embedded into content using the Xinha visual editor.  There's also CoDoc, which allows you to upload a document to a category, and then upload new revisions of it.  Like the two content modules, revisions are tracked by username and date/time, and there's locking functionality for when someone is working on a particular document.  There's no easy way to embed CoDoc items into other content though.  Lastly, there's Relay, which is a port of a file management script written in javascript.  Nice and simple way to manage files in a given directory without resorting to FTP.  There are also a selection of gallery modules for displaying screenshots if that might be useful.


I'm in the process of setting up a demo site over at Zikula which you'll be able to use to test these modules out if you feel that's helpful - just let me know.



Simon




From gayathri.swa at gmail.com  Sun Jan 25 16:22:46 2009
From: gayathri.swa at gmail.com (Gayathri Swaminathan)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:22:46 -0600
Subject: CMS Option: Zikula
In-Reply-To: <20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
References: <497A2208.40304@christensenplace.us>
	<20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

Hi:

> I think we should also be considering the other major players in the
> CMS game, if there are people available to deploy and maintain them.
> Drupal and Joomla! immediately come to mind, the latter especially
> because it actually has some DocBook XML support.  Features aren't
> particularly compelling, though, if we have no one around to help with
> the maintenance.

+1 to your statement regarding maintenance. There are too many choices
for CMS under three major platforms PHP, Python, JAVA, Ruby on rails
etc., Enlisting some here that I have supported/ maintained:

1. JAVA based

Apache Jackrabbit, Liferay

2. Python based

Plone, Django framework

3. PHP based

Mediawiki, Drupal, Wordpress, Joomla

As Paul mentions, each of these CMS come with their own "features"/
"necessity for extension" which of course is based on what we need as
a group as in, how to:

- structure content - can be viewed from maintenance (or) usability perspective
- involve volunteers
- customize the framework
- maintain
- volunteer base and their associated knowledge of choice of platform
- localization concerns

Am still catching up on all IRC logs/ email archives so some of the
listed were perhaps already reviewed and addressed :)

>
> None of this has any bearing on the quality of Zikula, which I'm sure
> is excellent.

Zikula looks cool indeed.

-- 
Gayathri Swaminathan
gpgkey: 3EFB3D39
Volunteer, FDP



From herlo1 at gmail.com  Sun Jan 25 18:39:02 2009
From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:39:02 -0700
Subject: CMS Option: WordPress
Message-ID: 

As with Zikula, I've also created a new template page with the details
about WordPress.  [1]

I also spent a bit of time talking with one of the developers at
Automattic (the company behind wordpress), Joseph Scott.  I discussed
the controversy of WordPress as a CMS as well as many of the features.
 Details of that discussion are also available. [2]

Feel free do discuss :)

Cheers,

Clint

1 - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WordPress_CMS_Option
2 - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WordPress_IRC_Chat_Interview



From operator at zikula.tv  Sun Jan 25 20:17:02 2009
From: operator at zikula.tv (David Nelson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:17:02 +0800
Subject: CMS Option: Zikula
In-Reply-To: <497A66E7.1010402@gmail.com>
References: <497A2208.40304@christensenplace.us>
	<20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
	<497A66E7.1010402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <146fc3c60901251217r490c9c2fyc51dd6c731ab5e32@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

If it's of any interest to you, there's a history and timeline about
the Zikula project
at http://zikula.tv/zikula-postnuke-history.html

The timeline tracks all the security advisories since the project's
beginning, and
would let you gauge our attitude to security, etc. Plus there's lots
of other info
there too (although it's a work in progress...)

If I were to venture why Zikula would be so good for Fedora Docs, I'd suggest:

1) The people in the project all believe fervently in Zikula as a
product. We love
it for its power and flexibility. We love it because you can do
anything with it.

2) Our devs have the imagination and the skill to help you not only fulfill
your presently-known needs, but also to help you examine and explore new
possibilities for the future. Our platform is sufficiently powerful,
well-designed
and flexible to provide your future platform without having to change to another
product.

3) Every member of our team would *love* to have you as our client. We
would all be strongly involved in making sure that you achieve what you want.

Hope this helps, and hope very much we'll be working with you in the future,

-- 
David Nelson
Web: http://zikula.tv

> One of the things I didn't know until I did some browsing around their
> website is that Zikula started off as PostNuke but that they changed the
> name in June.  So they are a long term player in the CMS market.
>
>> None of this has any bearing on the quality of Zikula, which I'm sure
>> is excellent.
>>
> I was impressed by a few of the things I've learned since this morning
> :-)  The answers to how Proactive the security is was a nice change from
> the usual thoughts I've seen::
>   https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_IRC_Chat_Interview#t12:20
>
> Here's my naive search of cve.mitre.org for issues reported in 2008.
> Note that some people would say to exclude plugins from this but my view
> is that we're going to be running plugins as part of our deployment and
> we'll want to know if we can expand our capabilities by pulling in
> functionality via plugins without compromising security.  So knowing
> this does a little towards understanding whether the Core provides an
> API for writing secure plugins and the plugin community is security
> minded as well as Core developers.  And like I say, this is naive :-)
>
> 91 Joomla -- Lots of plugins a few in core
> 79 Drupal -- Lots of plugins a few in core
> 60 Wordpress -- Lots of plugins, a few in core
> 53 Mambo --Lots of plugins, at least one in core
> 4 zikula + postnuke -- 1 in Core, 3 in plugins
> 1 midgard
> 0 zikula
> 0 enano
>
> For reference, mediawiki, which we think has an acceptable
> security-to-benefit ratio, had 8 vulnerabilities reported in 2008 using
> the same naive count.
>
> -Toshio



From anross at redhat.com  Mon Jan 26 10:10:25 2009
From: anross at redhat.com (Andrew Ross)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:10:25 +1000
Subject: F11 Release Notes Beat Writers
In-Reply-To: <49766741.8090107@christensenplace.us>
References: <49766741.8090107@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <497D8C11.5060802@redhat.com>

Eric Christensen wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> It's that time of year, again!  Time to hit the streets to get all the
> new Fedora goodness documented!
>
> There are two kinds of people receiving this message.  The first kind of
> recipient are those that had a beat assignment for F10.  If you are one
> of these please go over to the wiki[1] and verify that your assignment
> is still correct.  While you are over there please remove the "*" from
> your name so we know you are still on board.  The second kind of
> recipient are those that were not on the beat list but probably should
> be.  If you are one of these please go over to the wiki[1] and sign up
> for one of the open slots.  Don't wait around because the best slots go
> fast!
>
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats
>
>
> Thanks,
> Eric Christensen
> E-Mail: sparks at fedoraproject.org
> GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkl2Zz4ACgkQfQTSQL0MFMGY0gCfSTpt7D3Bzli8wzbh4Mr5gFBA
> lsEAnjLFKUkzBjWUaLyAV86VtGFn/3qY
> =6xb4
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>   
As a docs newbie... can I tag along with an existing beat writer?

Thanks

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Ross
Associate Quality Engineer
Red Hat Asia Pacific
Phone: 3514 8331
E-mail: anross at redhat.com
GPG-KeyID 0xCF53DC64 




From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Jan 26 14:23:32 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:53:32 +0530
Subject: Finding a kbase solution
Message-ID: <497DC764.50001@fedoraproject.org>

Hi

Since docs is in the process of figuring out the right CMS, just a note 
that Kbase project is still looking for the same.

https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/208

Rahul



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Mon Jan 26 14:32:09 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:32:09 +0800
Subject: Finding a kbase solution
In-Reply-To: <497DC764.50001@fedoraproject.org>
References: <497DC764.50001@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1232980329.6390.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 19:53 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Since docs is in the process of figuring out the right CMS, just a note 
> that Kbase project is still looking for the same.
> 
> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/208
> 
> Rahul
> 
What's the difference between Docs and Kbase?  I realize they're
different, but I'd like to know how each defines itself such that they
necessitate being different.

My followup to that is, do they need to have separate solutions or can
one solution be shared?
 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From public at itbegins.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 14:35:48 2009
From: public at itbegins.co.uk (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:35:48 -0000
Subject: Finding a kbase solution
In-Reply-To: <1232980329.6390.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <497DC764.50001@fedoraproject.org>
	<1232980329.6390.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <004d01c97fc3$619a1d10$24ce5730$@co.uk>

/me will be quiet soon, but there is a FAQ module for Zikula that would do
almost all of the requested featureset.

Simon

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fedora-docs-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-docs-list-
> bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Basil Mohamed Gohar
> Sent: 26 January 2009 14:32
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
> Subject: Re: Finding a kbase solution
> 
> On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 19:53 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > Since docs is in the process of figuring out the right CMS, just a
> > note that Kbase project is still looking for the same.
> >
> > https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/208
> >
> > Rahul
> >
> What's the difference between Docs and Kbase?  I realize they're
> different, but I'd like to know how each defines itself such that they
> necessitate being different.
> 
> My followup to that is, do they need to have separate solutions or can
> one solution be shared?
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _
> 
> Basil Mohamed Gohar
> abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
> www.basilgohar.com
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.13/1915 - Release Date:
> 25/01/2009 18:13



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Jan 26 14:50:52 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:20:52 +0530
Subject: Finding a kbase solution
In-Reply-To: <1232980329.6390.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <497DC764.50001@fedoraproject.org>
	<1232980329.6390.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <497DCDCC.5040709@fedoraproject.org>

Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 19:53 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> Since docs is in the process of figuring out the right CMS, just a note 
>> that Kbase project is still looking for the same.
>>
>> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/208
>>
>> Rahul
>>
> What's the difference between Docs and Kbase?  I realize they're
> different, but I'd like to know how each defines itself such that they
> necessitate being different.
> 
> My followup to that is, do they need to have separate solutions or can
> one solution be shared?

I don't particular care about which sub project or moniker it falls 
under as long as the defined (see ticket) set of requirements are being 
met.

Rahul



From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Jan 26 14:51:52 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:51:52 -0500
Subject: Finding a kbase solution
In-Reply-To: <004d01c97fc3$619a1d10$24ce5730$@co.uk>
References: <497DC764.50001@fedoraproject.org>
	<1232980329.6390.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<004d01c97fc3$619a1d10$24ce5730$@co.uk>
Message-ID: <20090126145152.GI12548@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 02:35:48PM -0000, Simon Birtwistle wrote:
> /me will be quiet soon, but there is a FAQ module for Zikula that would do
> almost all of the requested featureset.

Not at all, this information is good to have.

Handling the Kbase with the CMS solution is optimal.  The Docs team
should be involved in editing Kbase solutions so we don't have poorly
written or confusing solutions posted to users.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Mon Jan 26 15:05:52 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 23:05:52 +0800
Subject: Finding a kbase solution
In-Reply-To: <497DCDCC.5040709@fedoraproject.org>
References: <497DC764.50001@fedoraproject.org>
	<1232980329.6390.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<497DCDCC.5040709@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <1232982352.6390.88.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 20:20 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> 
> I don't particular care about which sub project or moniker it falls 
> under as long as the defined (see ticket) set of requirements are being 
> met.
> 
> Rahul
> 
After reading the ticket, it makes more sense.  I didn't realize it was
a new project - I thought it was already an existing project within
Fedora, so the idea of two projects existing separately doing something
similar was odd to me.
 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From shajia_khan at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 26 17:16:37 2009
From: shajia_khan at yahoo.com (Shajia Khan)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:16:37 -0500
Subject: installing the git-all and publican fedora
Message-ID: <001101c97fd9$d8dc3230$8a949690$@com>

Hi,

I was planning to contribute in some docs projects for students. While I was
visiting installation guide section I saw that I need to get familiar with
using 'git' if I want to contribute something to the installation guide. But
I was not sure how to install it. .

 

 

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_work_using_git#Setting_Up

 

Besides I am using windows vista as my operating system. Will the new
program conflict with my existing operating system?

 

Shajia

 

 

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From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Jan 26 18:37:58 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:37:58 -0500
Subject: installing the git-all and publican fedora
In-Reply-To: <001101c97fd9$d8dc3230$8a949690$@com>
References: <001101c97fd9$d8dc3230$8a949690$@com>
Message-ID: <20090126183758.GD14131@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 12:16:37PM -0500, Shajia Khan wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I was planning to contribute in some docs projects for students. While I was
> visiting installation guide section I saw that I need to get familiar with
> using 'git' if I want to contribute something to the installation guide. But
> I was not sure how to install it. .
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_work_using_git#Setting_Up
> 
> Besides I am using windows vista as my operating system. Will the new
> program conflict with my existing operating system?

I have no idea whether or how git is supported on Windows.  You may
want to download a free-as-in-beer virtualization program like
VirtualBox, so you can install Fedora as a guest virtual machine and
then use all the tools we provide as part of our platform.

If you find out information on using git on Windows, it would be
awesome if you just turned that into a wiki page, since you'd be
helping other contributors who come after you!

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Jan 26 19:04:29 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 00:34:29 +0530
Subject: installing the git-all and publican fedora
In-Reply-To: <20090126183758.GD14131@localhost.localdomain>
References: <001101c97fd9$d8dc3230$8a949690$@com>
	<20090126183758.GD14131@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <497E093D.6040700@fedoraproject.org>

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 12:16:37PM -0500, Shajia Khan wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was planning to contribute in some docs projects for students. While I was
>> visiting installation guide section I saw that I need to get familiar with
>> using 'git' if I want to contribute something to the installation guide. But
>> I was not sure how to install it. .
>>
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_work_using_git#Setting_Up
>>
>> Besides I am using windows vista as my operating system. Will the new
>> program conflict with my existing operating system?
> 
> I have no idea whether or how git is supported on Windows.  You may
> want to download a free-as-in-beer virtualization program like
> VirtualBox, so you can install Fedora as a guest virtual machine and
> then use all the tools we provide as part of our platform.
> 
> If you find out information on using git on Windows, it would be
> awesome if you just turned that into a wiki page, since you'd be
> helping other contributors who come after you!

Never used it but http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/ is apparently the 
recommended option. Start here.

Rahul




From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Jan 26 19:49:17 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 01:19:17 +0530
Subject: installing the git-all and publican fedora
In-Reply-To: <497E093D.6040700@fedoraproject.org>
References: <001101c97fd9$d8dc3230$8a949690$@com>	<20090126183758.GD14131@localhost.localdomain>
	<497E093D.6040700@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <497E13BD.1020401@fedoraproject.org>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> Never used it but http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/ is apparently the 
> recommended option. Start here.

One more link

http://nathanj.github.com/gitguide/

Rahul



From kwade at redhat.com  Mon Jan 26 23:57:30 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:57:30 -0800
Subject: Alpha Release Readiness
In-Reply-To: <497919B2.20304@christensenplace.us>
References: <4978D363.3080307@redhat.com> <497919B2.20304@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <20090126235730.GB4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 08:13:22PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Karsten,
> I can handle this if you like.

As a matter of fact, I was going to ask if you or anyone else wanted
to do this one.  Let's pair up and both attend, since this is your
first run through.  If there is anyone else interested, let us know.
The more the merrier as we spread this knowledge.

- Karsten
> 
> - -Eric
> 
> 
> John Poelstra wrote:
> > With the Alpha Release for Fedora 11 scheduled for Tuesday, February 3,
> > 2009, this means it is time to meet again with representatives from each
> > of the teams to have our release readiness meeting.  We usually have
> > this meeting at 18:00 UTC (13:00 EST) the Wednesday before, which means
> > next Wednesday, January 28, 2009, is the day.
> > 
> > On Monday, January 26, 2009, I will be sending out the dial-in
> > information and a meeting reminder to all the attendees.
> > 
> > In the meantime I need to know who will be representing your group at
> > these meetings for the Fedora 11 meetings.  Usually this is the
> > designated team leader, but I wanted to ask to make sure you coordinate
> > within your team to make sure someone comes.  When responding to this
> > list, please CC me so that I am sure to see the reply.
> > 
> > This message is going out to the respective mailings lists for these
> > groups:
> > 
> > Ambassadors
> > Artwork/Design
> > Documentation
> > FESCo
> > Infrastructure
> > Marketing
> > Quality
> > Release Engineering
> > Translation
> > Websites
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > John
> > 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> 
> iEYEARECAAYFAkl5GbAACgkQfQTSQL0MFMGScgCdFx1YD8ApvFEx/6LcZe37irNN
> /rMAn2Bxx0AoM2RmkCtIgTfvtz1NSnPE
> =hlrT
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> -- 
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: 
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list

-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 00:13:32 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:13:32 -0800
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
In-Reply-To: <20090122132921.GE5456@localhost.localdomain>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>
	<20090122132921.GE5456@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090127001332.GC4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 08:29:21AM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 06:18:55PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:

> > I think elections are important but I also trust our current leadership
> > to make the decision.

... and ...

> > We are not a large project so I don't feel a committee is necessary.  I
> > also don't think a single person can be everything, and everywhere, all
> > the time.  A single person with "lieutenants" to help manage portions of
> > the project would be the best.  There would be a single person to point
> > to as having responsibility for the project but decisions and direction
> > could be gathered from a couple of people that can keep the momentum up.

> > I feel that the Docs Project should remain just that, a sub-project.  If
> > only by definition, I feel that SIGs are optional while projects are a
> > requirement or a need.  If only to generate the Release Notes, I feel
> > that the Docs Project is a need for Fedora.  Of course we do more than
> > the Release Notes so that bolsters my feeling that we are an essential
> > part of the Fedora Project.
> > 
> > 
> > Just my two cents worth.
> 
> I agree with Eric.

Why, so do I!

Of course, it goes without saying that I trust myself to make my own
decision about an accountable leader.  I appreciate the idea that
others do, too.

One idea we discussed was regular rotation sync'd to the release
schedule; a person is the "Docs Leader" for a specific Fedora
version.  Others can rotate in to and out of this role.  (Sort of like
cooking at Moosewood Restaurant.[1])  We'd know who was coming for the
next two or three releases, so they could be watching and preparing.

I'm curious if we can either reach a consensus on who should lead for
the F11 release?  I'm going to be shadowing to help, of course.  Maybe
it would be fair(er) to start rotating after F12.

Can we start naming names and discussing qualities?  Heh heh.  I *do*
want to get some people prepared who, although new contributors, have
shown a ton of potential.

- Karsten

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moosewood_Restaurant

At least once upon a time, job roles were rotated.  One week you were
a line chef, then the sous chef, the next week head chef, the next a
dishwasher, on an endless cycle.  Time to work like crazy and time to
kick-back in the steam room (dish room) and dream up your next menu
... while watching what got rejected from this week's. :)

-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 00:17:55 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:17:55 -0800
Subject: Leave of absence....
In-Reply-To: <23b1fe6e0901221554i17c369dbg2313b6dbc6bbd221@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23b1fe6e0901221554i17c369dbg2313b6dbc6bbd221@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090127001755.GD4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 06:54:49PM -0500, Jason Taylor wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Not that I am a central figure or anything even remotely close :) but
> I figured I should drop a line to the list since I haven't been around
> much lately. This is due to current job commitments and getting ready
> for the move to a new job and living area. I would love to say I could
> help with the current reorganization and project work but that
> unfortunately isn't going to happen unless someone figures out a way
> to get more hours out of a day. :) I am currently listed for a couple
> release note beats which I am not going to be able to keep up with.
> Hopefully things will settle down in the next 4 months or so...

You rock, Jason.  I really appreciate what you did for the Fedora 10
release, and in making sure our bugs got closed.  Thank you for doing
one of the most important things a volunteer contributor can do -- let
everyone know when you aren't going to be around ... while leaving
yourself room for coming back. ;-)

Stop by anytime to say hi, and when you get your need to Fedoraize
again, we'll be here.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Tue Jan 27 00:19:26 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:19:26 -0500
Subject: Alpha Release Readiness
References: <4978D363.3080307@redhat.com> <497919B2.20304@christensenplace.us>
	<20090126235730.GB4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <910E26EE24D140338A90BD3DC82039AC@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karsten Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Alpha Release Readiness

> first run through.  If there is anyone else interested, let us know.
> The more the merrier as we spread this knowledge.

I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall.

--McD




From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 00:26:23 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:26:23 -0800
Subject: CMS Option: Zikula
In-Reply-To: <20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
References: <497A2208.40304@christensenplace.us>
	<20090123222522.GF15488@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090127002623.GE4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 05:25:22PM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> 
> I think we should also be considering the other major players in the
> CMS game,

It's not they aren't being considered, but ...

> if there are people available to deploy and maintain them.

Yeah, that's the catch.

> Drupal and Joomla! immediately come to mind, the latter especially
> because it actually has some DocBook XML support.  Features aren't
> particularly compelling, though, if we have no one around to help with
> the maintenance.

To be honest, the whole process for evaluating a tonne of CMSes to
weed them down to a short list and a complex matrix ... sounds like
work.  A lot of work.  The kind of work many of us have been paid to
do.  In the end, we are then paid to implement the solution we picked.

In this case, none of us are likely to be the actually implementers of
the solution.  Talking with Toshio one night, it was suddenly obvious
that we needed to approach this from the angle of getting the people,
and then getting the solution.

So, if a team of web developers wanted to just run a CMS and go
through the complex matrix picking process, more power to them.  But
to ask this group to do a deep evaluation of systems with no actual
task involved that moves us any closer to a real, installed CMS
... sounds like madness to me.

To be honest, I haven't contacted anyone from Joomla or Drupal yet.  I
can probably find the person from OSCON who dropped me his business
card about Drupal; we'll find out if they want to chat.

But to be honest, if they didn't respond from posts on fedora-list,
fedora-art-list, and fedora-devel-list, plus traffic in
fedora-docs-list and posts on Fedora Planet ... well, I reckon whoever
"they" are, they're not Fedora people already.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From masoudghaani at hotmail.co.uk  Tue Jan 27 00:31:17 2009
From: masoudghaani at hotmail.co.uk (MASOUD GHAANI)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 00:31:17 +0000
Subject: Alpha Release Readiness
In-Reply-To: <20090126235730.GB4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: <4978D363.3080307@redhat.com> <497919B2.20304@christensenplace.us>
	<20090126235730.GB4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: 


fuck off mother fucker> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:57:30 -0800> From: kwade at redhat.com> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com> Subject: Re: Alpha Release Readiness> > On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 08:13:22PM -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----> > Hash: SHA1> > > > Karsten,> > I can handle this if you like.> > As a matter of fact, I was going to ask if you or anyone else wanted> to do this one. Let's pair up and both attend, since this is your> first run through. If there is anyone else interested, let us know.> The more the merrier as we spread this knowledge.> > - Karsten> > > > - -Eric> > > > > > John Poelstra wrote:> > > With the Alpha Release for Fedora 11 scheduled for Tuesday, February 3,> > > 2009, this means it is time to meet again with representatives from each> > > of the teams to have our release readiness meeting. We usually have> > > this meeting at 18:00 UTC (13:00 EST) the Wednesday before, which means> > > next Wednesday, January 28, 2009, is the day.> > > > > > On Monday, January 26, 2009, I will be sending out the dial-in> > > information and a meeting reminder to all the attendees.> > > > > > In the meantime I need to know who will be representing your group at> > > these meetings for the Fedora 11 meetings. Usually this is the> > > designated team leader, but I wanted to ask to make sure you coordinate> > > within your team to make sure someone comes. When responding to this> > > list, please CC me so that I am sure to see the reply.> > > > > > This message is going out to the respective mailings lists for these> > > groups:> > > > > > Ambassadors> > > Artwork/Design> > > Documentation> > > FESCo> > > Infrastructure> > > Marketing> > > Quality> > > Release Engineering> > > Translation> > > Websites> > > > > > Thanks,> > > John> > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org> > > > iEYEARECAAYFAkl5GbAACgkQfQTSQL0MFMGScgCdFx1YD8ApvFEx/6LcZe37irNN> > /rMAn2Bxx0AoM2RmkCtIgTfvtz1NSnPE> > =hlrT> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----> > > > -- > > fedora-docs-list mailing list> > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com> > To unsubscribe: > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list> > -- > Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener> http://quaid.fedorapeople.org> AD0E0C41
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Tue Jan 27 01:24:39 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:24:39 -0500
Subject: F11 Release Notes Beat Writers
In-Reply-To: <497D8C11.5060802@redhat.com>
References: <49766741.8090107@christensenplace.us>
	<497D8C11.5060802@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <497E6257.3020207@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Andrew Ross wrote:
> As a docs newbie... can I tag along with an existing beat writer?
> Thanks
> Andrew

Andrew,
Absolutely.  I'd surf on over to the wiki and bring up the Beat
Assignments[1] and pick out on that looks interesting and contact that
Beat writer directly.


[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats


Thanks,
Eric Christensen
Fedora Docs Project

Fedora Talk: 5102043                  Phone: 919-424-0063 x 5102043
E-Mail/SIP Address: sparks at fedoraproject.org
IRC: Sparks on freenode.net

GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=x4xs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From jjmcd at fedoraproject.org  Thu Jan 22 00:17:42 2009
From: jjmcd at fedoraproject.org (John J. McDonough)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:17:42 -0500
Subject: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Christensen" 
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 

Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Docs Leadership: How to get there from here.


> I think elections are important but I also trust our current leadership
> to make the decision.

I think we should have elections.  That lends some credibility to the new 
leader.  As I understand it, though, the last time we didn't have enough 
suckers, er.... candidates.  If that continues it could be a problem, then 
maybe just anointing someone is the right answer.

One issue is that I suspect a lot of good potential leaders don't see 
themselves as politicians.  If the leader were selected, others within the 
team could do some behind the scenes persuading perhaps a little more 
easily.  And at least at this point in time, those who really led the charge 
last time are probably in a better position than anyone to recognize the 
strengths and weaknesses of the players.

--McD



From ryanlerch at gmail.com  Tue Jan 27 03:00:40 2009
From: ryanlerch at gmail.com (Ryan)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:00:40 +1000
Subject: Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <20090127001332.GC4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>	<4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>	<20090122132921.GE5456@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090127001332.GC4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <497E78D8.2010501@gmail.com>

Is fedora-docs still looking for someone to co-ordinate the Fedora 
Release Notes?

if so, this is me putting my hand up to help...

cheers,
ryanlerch



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 07:24:44 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 23:24:44 -0800
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
Message-ID: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>

I see this come up all the time, it's what you call a 'frequently
asked question.'  People wonder ...

... are we replacing the wiki with a CMS?

... is the CMS for authoring content collaboratively?

... or is the CMS for publishing already completed documents in
    various formats (Oo.org, XML, HTML, PDF, etc.)?

In my mind, the CMS is for putting publishing of formal content in the
hands of people who know and care.  Writers should be able to publish
drafts and completed versions.  Editors should be able to fix and push
updates.  Translators should be able to complete, publish, fix, and
update translations of guides.

Our current system is essentially checking rendered content in to
source control, and an auto-builder puts it on the web.  Historically,
this system was never well adopted, even by people who otherwise know
and understand the tools.  Instead, easier to use tools have drawn the
attention and content, such as wikis and blogs.  The adoption rates
are staggering by comparison.

The original purpose of getting a CMS was to make publishing easy.  We
already have a toolchain and process for getting content out of the
minds of the subject matters experts, on to the wiki, in to DocBook
XML, translated, and rendered to HTML, PDF, etc.  All of that can now
scale very well to larger and larger teams.  The only missing piece is
the ability to take all that content and put it on
docs.fedoraproject.org.

I purposely did not address the idea of people actually collaborating
on content that has the CMS as canonical.  When asked, we refer to the
upstream fedorahosted.com versioning system as the canonical source.
In this way, the CMS is similar to koji -- raw source turned in to
packaged content.

It is possible that a team would want to use the CMS as a working
location.  I'm tempted to cross that bridge when it happens, an idiom
which here means, let's figure out how to make that work when we come
to that decision point.

Our choice(s) and experience with CMS systems is going to inform the
Websites team on possible CMS choices for running underneath
fedoraproject.org.  In that case, the content there would probably
live inside of the CMS as canonical.  People would collaborate on it
directly in the CMS.

It would be great if the CMS or some other tool would give a
collaborative, browser based wysiwyg editing experience for DocBook
XML that is in a version control system.  There are as many reasons
why that won't work as there are to give it a try.  In the meantime
...

Make things clearer?  Muddier?  Slightly filmy but clear enough to
drive?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 07:31:07 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 23:31:07 -0800
Subject: Finding a kbase solution
In-Reply-To: <1232980329.6390.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <497DC764.50001@fedoraproject.org>
	<1232980329.6390.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090127073107.GG4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:32:09PM +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:

> What's the difference between Docs and Kbase?  I realize they're
> different, but I'd like to know how each defines itself such that they
> necessitate being different.

When you say "each", do you mean the sub-project Docs or the content
produced by that team?

I'd reckon that, as Paul said, being able to edit kbase entires is
optimal.

Otherwise, any contributor should be able to author (write, tag, and
categorize) knowledgebase articles.  They are, by nature, single issue
and solution focused, and usually rather short.

> My followup to that is, do they need to have separate solutions or can
> one solution be shared?

I don't see a requirement that they be separate, and it might be
better if they were combined.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com  Tue Jan 27 07:42:15 2009
From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:12:15 +0530
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <35586fc00901262342t6556cac5tf1149ad51abc717@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Karsten Wade  wrote:

> Our current system is essentially checking rendered content in to
> source control, and an auto-builder puts it on the web.  Historically,
> this system was never well adopted, even by people who otherwise know
> and understand the tools.  Instead, easier to use tools have drawn the
> attention and content, such as wikis and blogs.  The adoption rates
> are staggering by comparison.

I am sure that I have missed this somewhere, but what are the specific
pain points that make the source_control_toolchain_builder driven
system not adoption ready ?


-- 

http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published
http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science
http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Jan 27 08:55:28 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:25:28 +0530
Subject: Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <497E78D8.2010501@gmail.com>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>	<4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>	<20090122132921.GE5456@localhost.localdomain>	<20090127001332.GC4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<497E78D8.2010501@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <497ECC00.2070401@fedoraproject.org>

Ryan wrote:
> Is fedora-docs still looking for someone to co-ordinate the Fedora 
> Release Notes?
> 
> if so, this is me putting my hand up to help...

Sure. Join us. Refer

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats

Rahul



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 09:47:32 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 01:47:32 -0800
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <35586fc00901262342t6556cac5tf1149ad51abc717@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<35586fc00901262342t6556cac5tf1149ad51abc717@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090127094732.GH4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 01:12:15PM +0530, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Karsten Wade  wrote:
> 
> > Our current system is essentially checking rendered content in to
> > source control, and an auto-builder puts it on the web.  Historically,
> > this system was never well adopted, even by people who otherwise know
> > and understand the tools.  Instead, easier to use tools have drawn the
> > attention and content, such as wikis and blogs.  The adoption rates
> > are staggering by comparison.
> 
> I am sure that I have missed this somewhere, but what are the specific
> pain points that make the source_control_toolchain_builder driven
> system not adoption ready ?

You'd have to ask each individual what kept him/her from using the
s_c_t_b driven system, aka scm2web.  That was how fedora.redhat.com
was organized for the first few years; that's the same code serving
docs.fp.org right now.  When the wiki came online, *all* of the
activity on the f.r.c pages moved there within a matter of weeks.
What had been rarely and sparsely updated by a few was quickly a ghost
town.

By contrast, the wiki has hundreds of edits every single day.  The
content growth is enormous and occasionally impressive.  I'm
supposing, based on talking with people, that the easier tools are
all the difference.

Way back when we were deciding in Fedora Docs if we were going to
embrace or fight the wiki, I went to talk with Deb Richardson (dria),
who had just completed converting content and processes for Mozilla
developers.  They had been formerly using DocBook XML in an SCM, and
converted entirely to a wiki-based content system.  She described a
ten-fold increase in participation from hard-core developers who were
perfectly capable of picking up a simple markup language in a few
hours.  They preferred instead to pick-up an even simpler markup
language in a few minutes, edit, and be done.

Ten-fold increase.  Plus new people arrived who were interested and
passionate in doing the stuff no one had done to the XML.  Organize,
edit, promote, watch every page to make sure things go OK.

So we eventually agreed to keep an eye on the wiki and maybe use it
sometimes.  Since then, the experience in Fedora has been the same.
Except at our scale, it's more like a hundred-fold increase, probably
more.

The other lesson from that experience is, embrace the tools our wider
contributors are embracing.  Don't try to tell them our specialized
tool is teh b0mb, we're a real documentation project, and that's the
way it is.  Not unless we plan on paying people as the only way to get
contributors.

There is nothing about the current scm2web auto-publish system that a
few tool changes can't fix, but we're tired and under-staffed for
supporting a one-off, NIH content system.  Rather than teach its
arcana to more people, I'd rather ditch it and move on.

That, at least, is my two-bits.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Tue Jan 27 09:59:05 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:59:05 +0800
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1233050345.3823.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 23:24 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:

> 
> It would be great if the CMS or some other tool would give a
> collaborative, browser based wysiwyg editing experience for DocBook
> XML that is in a version control system.  There are as many reasons
> why that won't work as there are to give it a try.  In the meantime
> ...
> 
> Make things clearer?  Muddier?  Slightly filmy but clear enough to
> drive?

Karsten,

Much clearer, in my opinion.  Off the top of my head, I don't know
anything that does integrated version-controlling elegantly except for
MediaWiki, but I do not know if that's anyone's idea of an ideal CMS for
this purpose.  But it's something to consider, and we already have a lot
of people experienced in using the Wiki, and many, many other projects
do use MediaWiki as their sole documentation engine.
 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Jan 27 09:59:13 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:29:13 +0530
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <35586fc00901262342t6556cac5tf1149ad51abc717@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<35586fc00901262342t6556cac5tf1149ad51abc717@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <497EDAF1.9080005@fedoraproject.org>

Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Karsten Wade  wrote:
> 
>> Our current system is essentially checking rendered content in to
>> source control, and an auto-builder puts it on the web.  Historically,
>> this system was never well adopted, even by people who otherwise know
>> and understand the tools.  Instead, easier to use tools have drawn the
>> attention and content, such as wikis and blogs.  The adoption rates
>> are staggering by comparison.
> 
> I am sure that I have missed this somewhere, but what are the specific
> pain points that make the source_control_toolchain_builder driven
> system not adoption ready ?

Not enough time in a day to waste on learning something like this. I 
have been a active contributor via release notes but only on wiki edits. 
Someone else has been doing the conversion into docbook xml and 
publishing it.

Not that I don't know docbook xml or aren't aware of the benefits but it 
is simply too tedious to do on a regular basis. a CMS would cut the 
middlemen and let me publish directly, hopefully.

Rahul



From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Tue Jan 27 10:03:26 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:03:26 +0800
Subject: Finding a kbase solution
In-Reply-To: <20090127073107.GG4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: <497DC764.50001@fedoraproject.org>
	<1232980329.6390.86.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090127073107.GG4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1233050606.3823.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 23:31 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:32:09PM +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> 
> > What's the difference between Docs and Kbase?  I realize they're
> > different, but I'd like to know how each defines itself such that they
> > necessitate being different.
> 
> When you say "each", do you mean the sub-project Docs or the content
> produced by that team?
> 
> I'd reckon that, as Paul said, being able to edit kbase entires is
> optimal.
> 
> Otherwise, any contributor should be able to author (write, tag, and
> categorize) knowledgebase articles.  They are, by nature, single issue
> and solution focused, and usually rather short.
> 
> > My followup to that is, do they need to have separate solutions or can
> > one solution be shared?
> 
> I don't see a requirement that they be separate, and it might be
> better if they were combined.

I had responded too hastily before reading what was said in the actual
ticket, so I was able to realize the points you clarified above.  I'll
try to read TFA first before posting hereon out...;)
 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Jan 27 12:33:02 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 07:33:02 -0500
Subject: Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <497E78D8.2010501@gmail.com>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>
	<20090122132921.GE5456@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090127001332.GC4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<497E78D8.2010501@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090127123254.GD30712@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 01:00:40PM +1000, Ryan wrote:
> Is fedora-docs still looking for someone to co-ordinate the Fedora  
> Release Notes?
>
> if so, this is me putting my hand up to help...

That's great Ryan!

I hear you had a major hand in the RHEL 5.3 release notes, which look
fantastic:
http://www.redhat.com/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/5/html/Release_Notes/index.html

As questions come up about what we've done in the past -- even if you
just want to know so you can do something different and better --
please feel free to post here.  We clearly want to use Publican for
the F11 release notes; it was a tentative F10 goal that we just
couldn't achieve in time.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Jan 27 12:41:50 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 07:41:50 -0500
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <20090127094732.GH4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<35586fc00901262342t6556cac5tf1149ad51abc717@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090127094732.GH4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <20090127124150.GE30712@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 01:47:32AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
[...a lot more than this, snip...]
> There is nothing about the current scm2web auto-publish system that a
> few tool changes can't fix, but we're tired and under-staffed for
> supporting a one-off, NIH content system.  Rather than teach its
> arcana to more people, I'd rather ditch it and move on.

Your previous posts are the clearest statements about Docs status in
recent memory.  We just want people to be able to contribute
meaningfully in a way that makes sense to them.

* The wiki allows everyone to contribute with zero barrier to entry.
  Write and publish immediately.  Since anyone can write anything
  there, caveat emptor.

* A CMS with an easy editor would basically be the equivalent of "a
  wiki you can trust just a bit more," because there's an editorial
  staff dedicated to it by virtue of it being the "official"
  documentation site.

It might be important to note that the CMS is really an experiment,
something to try that we really haven't done yet.  If it doesn't work,
the natural fall back might be to abandon all the editorial
mumbo-jumbo and simply concentrate solely on the wiki from there on
out.  That's a bridge that can be crossed later too.

And of course, this is just my $0.02 as a Docs contributor.  A lot of
the above is pure hogwash until (and unless) the next Docs leader
agrees.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From ruturaj at gmail.com  Tue Jan 27 12:52:59 2009
From: ruturaj at gmail.com (Ruturaj)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:22:59 +0530
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <20090127124150.GE30712@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<35586fc00901262342t6556cac5tf1149ad51abc717@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090127094732.GH4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090127124150.GE30712@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <75a9cec80901270452g5df07007n93e091360ff24d0a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
Doesn't the use of http://fedoraproject.org/w/api.php is good enough
for programming the final doc from the Wiki? considering what the
articles have been "selected" for the final doc!?
Rutu


--
regards,
Ruturaj K. Vartak
http://www.ruturaj.net



From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Jan 27 13:40:21 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:40:21 -0500
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <75a9cec80901270452g5df07007n93e091360ff24d0a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<35586fc00901262342t6556cac5tf1149ad51abc717@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090127094732.GH4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090127124150.GE30712@localhost.localdomain>
	<75a9cec80901270452g5df07007n93e091360ff24d0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090127134021.GA4727@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 06:22:59PM +0530, Ruturaj wrote:
> Doesn't the use of http://fedoraproject.org/w/api.php is good enough
> for programming the final doc from the Wiki? considering what the
> articles have been "selected" for the final doc!?

I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly.  Are you asking,
why don't we publish from SCM to the wiki?  I think that's possible,
but doesn't get around the problem of making contributors to official
docs learn the $SCM in question.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kgs at esilibrary.com  Tue Jan 27 14:24:56 2009
From: kgs at esilibrary.com (Karen Schneider)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:24:56 -0500
Subject: Self Introduction
In-Reply-To: <146fc3c60901220800k336b0597i25c75824681c224@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090122150423.GA25244@zaphod.local.lan>
	<20090122152005.GA19455@localhost.localdomain>
	<146fc3c60901220800k336b0597i25c75824681c224@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

A belated introduction from a lurker. (Andrew Ross, I was in Brisbane last
fall on business. Lovely city!)

Name: Karen Schneider
Location: Florida/Georgia
Profession: Community Librarian
Company: Equinox Software Inc. ("The Evergreen Experts" -- we support
Evergreen OSS library automation software)

I have a variety of roles in the company and one emerging role is to help
shape the direction of Evergreen documentation, including selecting and
providing oversight for documentation writers on a grant project, helping to
provide direction on schemas, style guides, etc., and whatever else comes
up.  We are (very likely) adopting the Fedora styleguide, discussing a move
from Dokuwiki to Docbook, integrating documentation into the development
timeline, etc.

* What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past?*
 * I do not have a documentation background, though I have written two
technical trade books and have an MFA in writing. I have published over 100
articles, mostly industry-specific trade articles for library and technology
magazines, though also a handful of literary essays. (Yes, I think that
counts -- writing is writing, and after reviewing a series of documentation
contributions this only confirms for me that some folks have it and others
do not.)

* What level and type of computer skills do you have?*

* I am a generalist with typical business skills (perhaps better than
average). I have been online since 1990. I am not scared of a command prompt
but also don't seek one out if I don't have to. ;) Like most librarians I
have a good feel for structured data and for metadata.

* What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface
design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc.*
* I am teaching myself Docbook (next up, XSLT).
*I run a local writers' critique group (where I am informally known as their
beloved "hard**s" ;) ) and have very good editorial/review/critique skills.
If I can understand it, I can usually salvage it and can provide feedback at
every level -- detailed/directive; suggestions; general advice; etc.
* In my decades in the full-time workforce I have initiated, hired for, and
provided oversight for a variety of projects (including usability, software
development, etc.) and have been an administrator of various flavors at
various times.
*
What makes you an excellent match for the project?*
* I don't know that I am an "excellent match" at this point. I'm sitting
back and listening/learning. If a role opens up, I'll speak up. I'm always
happy to look at anything you want me to.


| Karen G. Schneider
| Community Librarian
| Equinox Software Inc. "The Evergreen Experts"
| Toll-free: 1.877.Open.ILS (1.877.673.6457) x712
| kgs at esilibrary.com
| Web: http://www.esilibrary.com
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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Tue Jan 27 14:45:59 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:45:59 -0500
Subject: Self Introduction
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20090122150423.GA25244@zaphod.local.lan>
	<20090122152005.GA19455@localhost.localdomain>
	<146fc3c60901220800k336b0597i25c75824681c224@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

Hi Karen,

Welcome to the group.
We are constantly in need of good wordsmiths, as well as people who
understand DocBook.
Please feel free to join us during our weekly meetings on Wednesday at
2pm Eastern on irc.freenode.net in #fedora-meeting.
In general you'll find us hanging out in #fedora-docs so feel free to
stop by anytime.

I find it very interesting that Equinox/Evergreen is adopting the
style guide, but it's very illustrative of how open source is supposed
to work.

On a completely unrelated note - can you put us in contact with
someone at Equinox about packaging Evergreen for Fedora?

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Karen Schneider  wrote:
> A belated introduction from a lurker. (Andrew Ross, I was in Brisbane last
> fall on business. Lovely city!)
>
> Name: Karen Schneider
> Location: Florida/Georgia
> Profession: Community Librarian
> Company: Equinox Software Inc. ("The Evergreen Experts" -- we support
> Evergreen OSS library automation software)
>
> I have a variety of roles in the company and one emerging role is to help
> shape the direction of Evergreen documentation, including selecting and
> providing oversight for documentation writers on a grant project, helping to
> provide direction on schemas, style guides, etc., and whatever else comes
> up.  We are (very likely) adopting the Fedora styleguide, discussing a move
> from Dokuwiki to Docbook, integrating documentation into the development
> timeline, etc.
>
> What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past?
>  * I do not have a documentation background, though I have written two
> technical trade books and have an MFA in writing. I have published over 100
> articles, mostly industry-specific trade articles for library and technology
> magazines, though also a handful of literary essays. (Yes, I think that
> counts -- writing is writing, and after reviewing a series of documentation
> contributions this only confirms for me that some folks have it and others
> do not.)
>
> What level and type of computer skills do you have?
>
> * I am a generalist with typical business skills (perhaps better than
> average). I have been online since 1990. I am not scared of a command prompt
> but also don't seek one out if I don't have to. ;) Like most librarians I
> have a good feel for structured data and for metadata.
>
> What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface
> design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc.
> * I am teaching myself Docbook (next up, XSLT).
> *I run a local writers' critique group (where I am informally known as their
> beloved "hard**s" ;) ) and have very good editorial/review/critique skills.
> If I can understand it, I can usually salvage it and can provide feedback at
> every level -- detailed/directive; suggestions; general advice; etc.
> * In my decades in the full-time workforce I have initiated, hired for, and
> provided oversight for a variety of projects (including usability, software
> development, etc.) and have been an administrator of various flavors at
> various times.
>
> What makes you an excellent match for the project?
> * I don't know that I am an "excellent match" at this point. I'm sitting
> back and listening/learning. If a role opens up, I'll speak up. I'm always
> happy to look at anything you want me to.
>
>
> | Karen G. Schneider
> | Community Librarian
> | Equinox Software Inc. "The Evergreen Experts"
> | Toll-free: 1.877.Open.ILS (1.877.673.6457) x712
> | kgs at esilibrary.com
> | Web: http://www.esilibrary.com
>
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



From kgs at esilibrary.com  Tue Jan 27 15:02:23 2009
From: kgs at esilibrary.com (Karen Schneider)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:02:23 -0500
Subject: Self Introduction
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20090122150423.GA25244@zaphod.local.lan>
	<20090122152005.GA19455@localhost.localdomain>
	<146fc3c60901220800k336b0597i25c75824681c224@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: 

1. I'd love to, 2. thank you, 3. agreed, 4. will follow through right now --


Karen G. Schneider

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 9:45 AM, David Nalley <
david.nalley at fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Hi Karen,
>
> Welcome to the group.
> We are constantly in need of good wordsmiths, as well as people who
> understand DocBook.
> 1. Please feel free to join us during our weekly meetings on Wednesday at
> 2pm Eastern on irc.freenode.net in #fedora-meeting.
> 2. In general you'll find us hanging out in #fedora-docs so feel free to
> stop by anytime.
>
> I find it very interesting that Equinox/Evergreen is adopting the
> style guide, but 3. it's very illustrative of how open source is supposed
> to work.
>
> 4. On a completely unrelated note - can you put us in contact with
> someone at Equinox about packaging Evergreen for Fedora?
>
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Karen Schneider 
> wrote:
> > A belated introduction from a lurker. (Andrew Ross, I was in Brisbane
> last
> > fall on business. Lovely city!)
> >
> > Name: Karen Schneider
> > Location: Florida/Georgia
> > Profession: Community Librarian
> > Company: Equinox Software Inc. ("The Evergreen Experts" -- we support
> > Evergreen OSS library automation software)
> >
> > I have a variety of roles in the company and one emerging role is to help
> > shape the direction of Evergreen documentation, including selecting and
> > providing oversight for documentation writers on a grant project, helping
> to
> > provide direction on schemas, style guides, etc., and whatever else comes
> > up.  We are (very likely) adopting the Fedora styleguide, discussing a
> move
> > from Dokuwiki to Docbook, integrating documentation into the development
> > timeline, etc.
> >
> > What other projects or writing have you worked on in the past?
> >  * I do not have a documentation background, though I have written two
> > technical trade books and have an MFA in writing. I have published over
> 100
> > articles, mostly industry-specific trade articles for library and
> technology
> > magazines, though also a handful of literary essays. (Yes, I think that
> > counts -- writing is writing, and after reviewing a series of
> documentation
> > contributions this only confirms for me that some folks have it and
> others
> > do not.)
> >
> > What level and type of computer skills do you have?
> >
> > * I am a generalist with typical business skills (perhaps better than
> > average). I have been online since 1990. I am not scared of a command
> prompt
> > but also don't seek one out if I don't have to. ;) Like most librarians I
> > have a good feel for structured data and for metadata.
> >
> > What other skills do you have that might be applicable? User interface
> > design, other so-called soft skills (people skills), programming, etc.
> > * I am teaching myself Docbook (next up, XSLT).
> > *I run a local writers' critique group (where I am informally known as
> their
> > beloved "hard**s" ;) ) and have very good editorial/review/critique
> skills.
> > If I can understand it, I can usually salvage it and can provide feedback
> at
> > every level -- detailed/directive; suggestions; general advice; etc.
> > * In my decades in the full-time workforce I have initiated, hired for,
> and
> > provided oversight for a variety of projects (including usability,
> software
> > development, etc.) and have been an administrator of various flavors at
> > various times.
> >
> > What makes you an excellent match for the project?
> > * I don't know that I am an "excellent match" at this point. I'm sitting
> > back and listening/learning. If a role opens up, I'll speak up. I'm
> always
> > happy to look at anything you want me to.
> >
> >
> > | Karen G. Schneider
> > | Community Librarian
> > | Equinox Software Inc. "The Evergreen Experts"
> > | Toll-free: 1.877.Open.ILS (1.877.673.6457) x712
> > | kgs at esilibrary.com
> > | Web: http://www.esilibrary.com
> >
> >
> > --
> > fedora-docs-list mailing list
> > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> > To unsubscribe:
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> >
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
-- 
| Karen G. Schneider
| Community Librarian
| Equinox Software Inc. "The Evergreen Experts"
| Toll-free: 1.877.Open.ILS (1.877.673.6457) x712
| E-Mail/AIM: kgs at esilibrary.com
| Web: http://www.esilibrary.com
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From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net  Tue Jan 27 16:02:04 2009
From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:02:04 -0500
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1233072124.3452.15.camel@frankenbox>

On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 23:24 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> It would be great if the CMS or some other tool would give a
> collaborative, browser based wysiwyg editing experience for DocBook
> XML that is in a version control system.  There are as many reasons
> why that won't work as there are to give it a try.  In the meantime
> ...

I think your post brought up a really good point, and one that I spent a
couple of hours wrestling with over the weekend, before throwing my
hands in the air in defeat.

Ideally (like you say above), the CMS would be *the* place to author,
edit, and render official documentation from the Fedora Docs team.  The
more I thought about it though, them more I'm starting to lean *away*
from a CMS.  Let me see if I can clearly articulate why.

1)  Revision control.  One of the things we'd like this CMS to do is to
provide revision control.  So far, as I haven't seen a CMS that handles
revision control nearly as cleanly as either the wiki or using an SCM
system such as Subversion or git.

2)  Document creation and editing.  Ideally, we'd have a wysiwyg editing
tool in the CMS that would output perfectly valid DocBook.  I don't see
this happening any time soon.  This means that whatever we create inside
the CMS doesn't lend itself well to repurposing or to easy translation.

3)  Translation.  This is an area where most CMS systems do poorly as
well.  How would we make this work with a CMS system?  Check in the
primarly language version, along with the PO/POT files, and have the CMS
render the translated versions?  Again, I think our current workflow has
a proven method that works, even if it's not highly automated.

To make a long story short, what if instead of concentrating on a CMS,
we concentrate on a system to take our
"created-in-the-wiki-converted-to-docbook-(and-optionally-translated)-and-rendered-to-HTML" documents and easily publish them on the web?  In other words, let's not throw out our current system (with it's easy editing, working translations, and DocBook XML core).  Let's just take the parts that are the roughest (which I'm presuming are the presentation parts) and fix those.

> Make things clearer?  Muddier?  Slightly filmy but clear enough to
> drive?

You certainly articulated the purposes of a CMS much more clearly than I
could ever hope to.  I'm just not sure I've caught the vision of why a
CMS would be better than (most of) our current setup.

-Jared



From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Tue Jan 27 16:16:12 2009
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:46:12 +0530
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
Message-ID: <78323d480901270816x4c083a13v3fdb718253c77d27@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Paul W. Frields"  wrote:
> * The wiki allows everyone to contribute with zero barrier to entry.
>  Write and publish immediately.  Since anyone can write anything
>  there, caveat emptor.
>
> * A CMS with an easy editor would basically be the equivalent of "a
>  wiki you can trust just a bit more," because there's an editorial
>  staff dedicated to it by virtue of it being the "official"
>  documentation site.
>

I think any good CMS would lessen the burden on the doc team
considerably and improve work flow (in comparison with a wiki based
system).
Contributors may also have a more polished interface to use.

Best

A. Mani



-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc

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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Tue Jan 27 16:28:54 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 00:28:54 +0800
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <78323d480901270816x4c083a13v3fdb718253c77d27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78323d480901270816x4c083a13v3fdb718253c77d27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1233073734.3823.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 21:46 +0530, Mani A wrote:
> 
> I think any good CMS would lessen the burden on the doc team
> considerably and improve work flow (in comparison with a wiki based
> system).
> Contributors may also have a more polished interface to use.
> 
> Best
> 
> A. Mani

How about rather than looking for an end-all be all solution, we find
more than one tool that can all be used together.  For example, one part
of the toolchain may be the wiki, while another part may be a
docbook-to-wiki tool, and another could be a DocBook editor...I don't
know what would really work, but it's an idea that may be easier than
finding one software package that does EVERYTHING.

 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net  Tue Jan 27 16:43:15 2009
From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:43:15 -0500
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <1233073734.3823.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <78323d480901270816x4c083a13v3fdb718253c77d27@mail.gmail.com>
	<1233073734.3823.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1233074595.3452.20.camel@frankenbox>

On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 00:28 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> How about rather than looking for an end-all be all solution, we find
> more than one tool that can all be used together.

That brings up a very good point, and one that I didn't articulate well
in my last post:

Have we defined an overall plan for how formal documents will be
written, edited, translated, and published?  Is DocBook at the core
still a requirement?

In other words, are we going to do the
wiki->DocBook->(Translate?)->XSLT->CMS->Edit->Publish dance?  Or do we
expect the entire life-cycle of the document to live inside the CMS
system?

-Jared



From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Tue Jan 27 16:51:29 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:51:29 -0500
Subject: CMS discussions yet again
Message-ID: 

Sparks, jsmith and I were talking in IRC and I thought the
conversation should have a bit wider audience.

I think that while kbase and housing documentation for packaging
guidelines and legal are excellent use cases for a CMS, I wonder if by
trying to use it for everything we are not trying to use a hammer to
drive a screw. My reason for saying that is that it seems like we are
trying to push all of our non-wiki documentation into the CMS, which
at least from my perspectives means we, to one degree or another, are
abandoning DocBook.

For our 'heavy' documents, such as Release Notes, User Guide, and
Security Guide, I don't see an escape from DocBook - it provides a lot
of advantages that just don't exist in a CMS.  It does have
disadvantages to be sure, but I guess the question in my mind is with
all of the talk of moving to a CMS are we really prepared to ditch
DocBook and it's benefits? Or is the CMS a solution for things like
Legal and Packaging Guidelines, and potentially a knowledgebase, and
not more?

Thoughts, Comments, Flames?



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 16:56:36 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:56:36 -0800
Subject: Docs at Fedora Activity Day (FAD) [SCaLE 7x 20 Feb.]
In-Reply-To: <20090119232505.GD20940@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090119232505.GD20940@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <20090127165636.GJ4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 03:25:05PM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:

> * User Guide for F10 -- all wiki work, can use the Ambassador hardware
>   as systems to write from.

Left to my own devices and time having run out, I picked the User
Guide as a good choice for bringing in new people with the lowest
barriers.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Activity_Day_at_SCaLE_7x#Documentation

-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From danielsmw at gmail.com  Tue Jan 27 17:04:46 2009
From: danielsmw at gmail.com (Matthew Daniels)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:04:46 -0500
Subject: Docs at Fedora Activity Day (FAD) [SCaLE 7x 20 Feb.]
In-Reply-To: <20090127165636.GJ4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090119232505.GD20940@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090127165636.GJ4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: 

As an update, since I haven't said much about it recently, the F9 UG  
is done content-wise *except* for KDE/Xfce.  I simply don't feel  
qualified to check over these sections, nor do I have the capacity to  
really use these and try them out right now.  With that said, if  
someone can go to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide_tasks and  
prepare those for XML, the hopefully we can ship them off to XML and  
be done with it.

So if that can be done before SCaLE, you guys (speaking to Karsten)  
can make a huge dent in the F10 revisions and we may even be able to  
pull this thing up to date by F11.

- Matthew

On Jan 27, 2009, at 11:56 AM, Karsten Wade wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 03:25:05PM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
>
>> * User Guide for F10 -- all wiki work, can use the Ambassador  
>> hardware
>>  as systems to write from.
>
> Left to my own devices and time having run out, I picked the User
> Guide as a good choice for bringing in new people with the lowest
> barriers.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ 
> Fedora_Activity_Day_at_SCaLE_7x#Documentation
>
> -- 
> Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
> http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
> AD0E0C41
> -- 
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list



From herlo1 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 27 17:08:22 2009
From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:08:22 -0700
Subject: Docs at Fedora Activity Day (FAD) [SCaLE 7x 20 Feb.]
In-Reply-To: <20090127165636.GJ4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090119232505.GD20940@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090127165636.GJ4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Karsten Wade  wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 03:25:05PM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
>
>> * User Guide for F10 -- all wiki work, can use the Ambassador hardware
>>   as systems to write from.
>
> Left to my own devices and time having run out, I picked the User
> Guide as a good choice for bringing in new people with the lowest
> barriers.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Activity_Day_at_SCaLE_7x#Documentation
>

So I say we get the word out about the FAD now.

We'll be working on the User Guide for F10 and Packaging of Fonts
during the day.

A full schedule can be found at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Activity_Day_at_SCaLE_7x

If you are interested, live near Southern California (even if it's a
few hours drive, like Las Vegas), come on down and participate for the
day.  And hey, why not stay for the rest of SCaLE :)

Cheers,

Clint



From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 17:16:23 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:16:23 -0800
Subject: Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <497E78D8.2010501@gmail.com>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>
	<20090122132921.GE5456@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090127001332.GC4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<497E78D8.2010501@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090127171623.GK4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 01:00:40PM +1000, Ryan wrote:
> Is fedora-docs still looking for someone to co-ordinate the Fedora  
> Release Notes?
>
> if so, this is me putting my hand up to help...

Great!

As it stands from last meeting we decided:

* Rotate release notes leads every release
* Begin right now training the leads/coordinators for the following
  releases

We then decided that Eric Christensen would lead for F11 and John
McDonaugh would lead for F12.

I think there is still room to get creative around that decision.
Right now, our problem is that not enough people really understand the
release notes from start to package.  I'd rather have too many people
working on that than too few.  I doubt we want to confuse things by
having a bunch of 'co-leaders', but having some active, coordinating
lieutenants might fit.

Also, as Paul mentioned, the RHEL 5.3 release notes are great, and
they show some methods that we've been discussing here.  I'd like to
see what we can do this time and how it is affected by Fedora's
different methods for gathering and writing release notes (compared to
RHEL.)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 17:18:06 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:18:06 -0800
Subject: Alpha Release Readiness
In-Reply-To: <910E26EE24D140338A90BD3DC82039AC@Aidan>
References: <4978D363.3080307@redhat.com> <497919B2.20304@christensenplace.us>
	<20090126235730.GB4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<910E26EE24D140338A90BD3DC82039AC@Aidan>
Message-ID: <20090127171806.GL4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 07:19:26PM -0500, John J. McDonough wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karsten Wade" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 6:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Alpha Release Readiness
>
>> first run through.  If there is anyone else interested, let us know.
>> The more the merrier as we spread this knowledge.
>
> I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall.

I'll make sure John puts in a few extra lines and you get the invite
details.  From his last email, he has Eric for Documentation and
myself for Ambassadors, so I don't see too many cooks for this soup.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Tue Jan 27 17:36:25 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 01:36:25 +0800
Subject: CMS discussions yet again
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <1233077785.3823.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 11:51 -0500, David Nalley wrote:
> Sparks, jsmith and I were talking in IRC and I thought the
> conversation should have a bit wider audience.
> 
> I think that while kbase and housing documentation for packaging
> guidelines and legal are excellent use cases for a CMS, I wonder if by
> trying to use it for everything we are not trying to use a hammer to
> drive a screw. My reason for saying that is that it seems like we are
> trying to push all of our non-wiki documentation into the CMS, which
> at least from my perspectives means we, to one degree or another, are
> abandoning DocBook.
> 
> For our 'heavy' documents, such as Release Notes, User Guide, and
> Security Guide, I don't see an escape from DocBook - it provides a lot
> of advantages that just don't exist in a CMS.  It does have
> disadvantages to be sure, but I guess the question in my mind is with
> all of the talk of moving to a CMS are we really prepared to ditch
> DocBook and it's benefits? Or is the CMS a solution for things like
> Legal and Packaging Guidelines, and potentially a knowledgebase, and
> not more?
> 
> Thoughts, Comments, Flames?
> 

I have yet to make any significant contributions to the Docs project, so
please take all of this with a $unit of $seasoning.

First off, though Karsten did give us a great description of what he
envisions the ideal solution for a CMS to be, someone like me (a
beginner) is not entirely sure of the scope of such a project.  What
does the Docs project cover?  For example, does the content on the Wiki
fall under the Docs project?  The Red Hat website has some awesome
documentation (specifically the guides for BIND & Fedora Directory
Server, which I've referred to frequently) - does that have anything to
do with the Fedora docs project, given that a lot of it overlaps with
what we may want to do or use?

Or, perhaps, is the CMS idea also intended to help wrangle all of these
disparate ideas really make the docs project more clear?  Sorry for the
n00bieness of this.

Having said that, I have observed that DocBook is a great format that
has nearly limitless uses.  Its strength definitely lies in producing
"documents".  I think "documents" tends to encompass things that you
could put, say, into a PDF or other single file format for publication &
distribution.  It would also be great for formatting into those nice
little documentation-as-website pages you find online (Red Hat has some
great examples under "Manuals").  However, the Fedora Docs project seems
to have gone a little past just "documents".  For example the kbase idea
does not, in my head, fit under something that can be a "document", and
so I think that, perhaps, DocBook doesn't make sense there.  So here
DocBook seems to not be an ideal catch-all, but good for a subset of
what's needed.

So, is it asking a lot to delineate precisely what are the things the
Docs project does/produces, so that maybe we - or, at the very least, I
- can, collectively (or solitarily) understand that maybe we use this
tool/process for that, and that tool/process for this?

Sorry if my reply doesn't actually help, but I am genuinely interested
in all of the above.

My RM0.02 (local currency).
 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 20:48:08 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:48:08 -0800
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <1233072124.3452.15.camel@frankenbox>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<1233072124.3452.15.camel@frankenbox>
Message-ID: <20090127204808.GM4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:02:04AM -0500, Jared Smith wrote:

> Ideally (like you say above), the CMS would be *the* place to author,
> edit, and render official documentation from the Fedora Docs team.  The
> more I thought about it though, them more I'm starting to lean *away*
> from a CMS.  Let me see if I can clearly articulate why.

Well, ideal in an ideal world. :)

> 1)  Revision control.  One of the things we'd like this CMS to do is to
> provide revision control.  So far, as I haven't seen a CMS that handles
> revision control nearly as cleanly as either the wiki or using an SCM
> system such as Subversion or git.
>
> 2)  Document creation and editing.  Ideally, we'd have a wysiwyg editing
> tool in the CMS that would output perfectly valid DocBook.  I don't see
> this happening any time soon.  This means that whatever we create inside
> the CMS doesn't lend itself well to repurposing or to easy translation.
> 
> 3)  Translation.  This is an area where most CMS systems do poorly as
> well.  How would we make this work with a CMS system?  Check in the
> primarly language version, along with the PO/POT files, and have the CMS
> render the translated versions?  Again, I think our current workflow has
> a proven method that works, even if it's not highly automated.

I agree with you, and I think my clarifications still fall a half-step
short.



CMS doesn't handle revision control; that is for the upstream SCM on
fedorahosted.org

The Fedora Docs CMS is *not* for authoring content.  The opposite is
probably true for a CMS used for other web properties
(www.fedoraproject.org.)

The Docs CMS is just a tool to put easy publishing in the hands of the
document writing teams.

Translation happens the same as always.

Document authoring continues as we've done -- some sourced in
wiki/sourced in fhosted.org => SCM => XML + PO => {HTML,PDF,RPM,TBZ,ZIP...}

The CMS should remove pain at the end of all the current processes
that are working fine.  This pain is, "How do I publish and manage a
draft or final version of this document?"



> To make a long story short, what if instead of concentrating on a CMS,
> we concentrate on a system to take our
> "created-in-the-wiki-converted-to-docbook-(and-optionally-translated)-and-rendered-to-HTML"
> documents and easily publish them on the web?  In other words, let's
> not throw out our current system (with it's easy editing, working
> translations, and DocBook XML core).  Let's just take the parts that
> are the roughest (which I'm presuming are the presentation parts)
> and fix those.

It's really the publishing parts that are the roughest, and, yep,
that's what the CMS is supposed to fix.

The CMS is going to have a tonne of tools that we ignore or don't care
about or one day discover and love.  Combined with programming, we may
end up adding to our capabilities.  I don't consider any of that to
be our primary or secondary concern for a while.

In other words, if the CMS' authoring tools are so great that people
want to use them, they do use them, and we have a ton of content in
the CMS that needs translation, etc. ... *that is a good thing.* That
is the kind of problem I'd prefer to solve.

> > Make things clearer?  Muddier?  Slightly filmy but clear enough to
> > drive?
> 
> You certainly articulated the purposes of a CMS much more clearly than I
> could ever hope to.  I'm just not sure I've caught the vision of why a
> CMS would be better than (most of) our current setup.

It's not better than the good parts, it's additive.  It *only*
replaces this:

http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/web/html/?root=fedora

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 20:52:40 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:52:40 -0800
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <1233073734.3823.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <78323d480901270816x4c083a13v3fdb718253c77d27@mail.gmail.com>
	<1233073734.3823.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090127205240.GN4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:28:54AM +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 21:46 +0530, Mani A wrote:
> > 
> > I think any good CMS would lessen the burden on the doc team
> > considerably and improve work flow (in comparison with a wiki based
> > system).
> > Contributors may also have a more polished interface to use.

I don't think we can nor want to replace wiki functionality.  There is
something different about a wiki that makes it work better at what it
does than a traditional CMS approach.  "All open to everyone in the
community to edit," is really a powerful proposition that a CMS cannot
easily beat.  MediaWiki is the best tool at this, I think our
relationship with that tool is going to go on for years.

> How about rather than looking for an end-all be all solution, we find
> more than one tool that can all be used together.  For example, one part
> of the toolchain may be the wiki, while another part may be a
> docbook-to-wiki tool, and another could be a DocBook editor...I don't
> know what would really work, but it's an idea that may be easier than
> finding one software package that does EVERYTHING.

This is what I believe we are trying to do.  *Add* a CMS as a
publishing tool to the end of parts that exist and work well.

* Collaborative writing and editing en masse:  Wiki

* Collaborative writing and editing of larger guides by a team:  Wiki
  then DocBook as a hosted project

* Translation: Transifex

* DocBook toolchain:  Publican

* Publishing tool:  CMS

If the CMS does the other jobs better, and we love it and people are
using it, then sure, we can switch to that.  That's a good problem,
not a bad one.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 21:03:06 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:03:06 -0800
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <1233074595.3452.20.camel@frankenbox>
References: <78323d480901270816x4c083a13v3fdb718253c77d27@mail.gmail.com>
	<1233073734.3823.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1233074595.3452.20.camel@frankenbox>
Message-ID: <20090127210306.GO4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:43:15AM -0500, Jared Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 00:28 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > How about rather than looking for an end-all be all solution, we find
> > more than one tool that can all be used together.
> 
> That brings up a very good point, and one that I didn't articulate well
> in my last post:
> 
> Have we defined an overall plan for how formal documents will be
> written, edited, translated, and published?  Is DocBook at the core
> still a requirement?

Most certainly, yes.  Sorry about that confusion.

> In other words, are we going to do the
> wiki->DocBook->(Translate?)->XSLT->CMS->Edit->Publish dance?

(wiki->)DocBook->Translate->XSLT->Publish

Edit should be done before translating. :)

> Or do we
> expect the entire life-cycle of the document to live inside the CMS
> system?

IMO, our current purpose is not to replace the current document
life-cycle.

I have no expectations of what the future shall bring us.  As I said,
if having a Docs CMS brings in more writers and editors because they
like and prefer to use the CMS, that is a good problem to have.

I reckon we'll always need a high-quality toolchain underneath it all;
currently DocBook XML does that, but DITA or similar could be in our 
future.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net  Tue Jan 27 21:08:05 2009
From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:08:05 +0000
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <20090127204808.GM4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<1233072124.3452.15.camel@frankenbox>
	<20090127204808.GM4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1233090485.7082.17.camel@frankenbox>

On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 12:48 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> Document authoring continues as we've done -- some sourced in
> wiki/sourced in fhosted.org => SCM => XML + PO => {HTML,PDF,RPM,TBZ,ZIP...}

Aha!  OK, now I have a much clearer insight into what we're using the
CMS for.

> The CMS should remove pain at the end of all the current processes
> that are working fine.  This pain is, "How do I publish and manage a
> draft or final version of this document?"

OK, if this is the case (and trust me when I say that I'm relieved that
this is the case!), this brings up another set of questions:

1. How do we ensure that any editing that gets done in the CMS gets
pushed back to the authoritative DocBook?  Should we make a rule that
*no* editing be done in the CMS, and that the CMS is merely for viewing
the final output of the process you described above?

2. How do we expect the CMS to handle multi-page HTML output from the
toolchain above?  Typically, the XSL transforms our DocBook source into
either single-page HTML, multi-page HTML, or PDF documents.  The one
that concerns me the most is multi-page HTML.  Most CMS systems don't
take to kindly to importing a whole set of HTML pages, especially ones
that are all linked together and already have  elements, their own
stylesheets, etc.  This point still makes me wonder if what we need is
really a CMS, or just some kind of HTML-set management utility.

-Jared



From masoudghaani at hotmail.co.uk  Tue Jan 27 22:35:43 2009
From: masoudghaani at hotmail.co.uk (MASOUD GHAANI)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:35:43 +0000
Subject: Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <20090127123254.GD30712@localhost.localdomain>
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>
	<20090122132921.GE5456@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090127001332.GC4822@calliope.phig.org> <497E78D8.2010501@gmail.com> 
	<20090127123254.GD30712@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 


you mother fucker stop e-mailing me cock sucker . i will lick your mumpussy. fucker bastard.> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 07:33:02 -0500> From: stickster at gmail.com> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com> Subject: Re: Release Notes> > On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 01:00:40PM +1000, Ryan wrote:> > Is fedora-docs still looking for someone to co-ordinate the Fedora > > Release Notes?> >> > if so, this is me putting my hand up to help...> > That's great Ryan!> > I hear you had a major hand in the RHEL 5.3 release notes, which look> fantastic:> http://www.redhat.com/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/5/html/Release_Notes/index.html> > As questions come up about what we've done in the past -- even if you> just want to know so you can do something different and better --> please feel free to post here. We clearly want to use Publican for> the F11 release notes; it was a tentative F10 goal that we just> couldn't achieve in time.> > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/> gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717> http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/> irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Messenger just got better .Video display pics, contact updates & more.
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From masoudghaani at hotmail.co.uk  Tue Jan 27 22:38:27 2009
From: masoudghaani at hotmail.co.uk (MASOUD GHAANI)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:38:27 +0000
Subject: Release Notes
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4977A9A7.70101@christensenplace.us>
	<4977AD5F.2010109@christensenplace.us>
	<20090122132921.GE5456@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090127001332.GC4822@calliope.phig.org> <497E78D8.2010501@gmail.com> 
	<20090127123254.GD30712@localhost.localdomain> 
	
Message-ID: 




From: masoudghaani at hotmail.co.ukTo: fedora-docs-list at redhat.comDate: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:35:43 +0000Subject: RE: Release Notes

you mother fucker stop e-mailing me cock sucker . i will lick your mumpussy. fucker bastard.> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 07:33:02 -0500> From: stickster at gmail.com> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com> Subject: Re: Release Notes> > On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 01:00:40PM +1000, Ryan wrote:> > Is fedora-docs still looking for someone to co-ordinate the Fedora > > Release Notes?> >> > if so, this is me putting my hand up to help...> > That's great Ryan!> > I hear you had a major hand in the RHEL 5.3 release notes, which look> fantastic:> http://www.redhat.com/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/5/html/Release_Notes/index.html> > As questions come up about what we've done in the past -- even if you> just want to know so you can do something different and better --> please feel free to post here. We clearly want to use Publican for> the F11 release notes; it was a tentative F10 goal that we just> couldn't achieve in time.> > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/> gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717> http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/> irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug

Share your photos with Windows Live Photos - Free Try it Now!
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 22:44:52 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:44:52 -0800
Subject: Docs at Fedora Activity Day (FAD) [SCaLE 7x 20 Feb.]
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20090119232505.GD20940@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090127165636.GJ4822@calliope.phig.org>
	
Message-ID: <20090127224452.GZ4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 12:04:46PM -0500, Matthew Daniels wrote:
> As an update, since I haven't said much about it recently, the F9 UG is 
> done content-wise *except* for KDE/Xfce.  I simply don't feel qualified 
> to check over these sections, nor do I have the capacity to really use 
> these and try them out right now.  With that said, if someone can go to 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide_tasks and prepare those for 
> XML, the hopefully we can ship them off to XML and be done with it.

Great point.  

I wonder if we can publish a draft with just the GNOME; that might
spur some attention to helping on the wiki for KDE and XFCE?

> So if that can be done before SCaLE, you guys (speaking to Karsten) can 
> make a huge dent in the F10 revisions and we may even be able to pull 
> this thing up to date by F11.

Good, let's make that a goal in the next three weeks.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Jan 27 22:50:34 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:50:34 -0500
Subject: Bad manners
Message-ID: <20090127225034.GJ4467@localhost.localdomain>

Apologies for the recent spate of foul-language postings to the list.
I've removed the offender and banned the email address in question.

Paul
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Tue Jan 27 23:00:01 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:00:01 +0800
Subject: Bad manners
In-Reply-To: <20090127225034.GJ4467@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090127225034.GJ4467@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1233097201.3823.96.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 17:50 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Apologies for the recent spate of foul-language postings to the list.
> I've removed the offender and banned the email address in question.
> 
> Paul

THANK YOU!
 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Tue Jan 27 23:35:04 2009
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 05:05:04 +0530
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
Message-ID: <78323d480901271535i67d96d7ah34e51c405341ba3c@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jared Smith  wrote:

> 1)  Revision control.  One of the things we'd like this CMS to do is to
> provide revision control.  So far, as I haven't seen a CMS that handles
> revision control nearly as cleanly as either the wiki or using an SCM
> system such as Subversion or git.

A revision control system with Web interface like Mercurial can be
integrated into most CMS and to different levels.

> 2)  Document creation and editing.  Ideally, we'd have a wysiwyg editing
> tool in the CMS that would output perfectly valid DocBook.  I don't see
> this happening any time soon.  This means that whatever we create inside
> the CMS doesn't lend itself well to repurposing or to easy translation.

Full WYSIWG for Docbook is not really needed. We should have different
tools that can deliver at least
some level of automatic docbook xml. Docbook is indispensable for a
project of this type.

Can't VEX or LYX be adapted for the job?



Best

A. Mani


--

A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc

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From poelstra at redhat.com  Tue Jan 27 23:43:31 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:43:31 -0800
Subject: Fedora 11 Schedules
Message-ID: <497F9C23.70809@redhat.com>

I have complete a draft of the translation schedule for Fedora 11.  It 
is based on the documentation schedule (which to date I have not 
received any feedback).

http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-trans-tasks.html

http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html

A new report I am still ironing out (huge credit goes to Ben Kahn for 
creating it for me) is a combined view of the Docs and Translations 
schedule with different color codings for each team.
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-and-trans-tasks.html


Please review the reports in detail to make sure I have the correct 
dates and task durations.  If you like we can schedule a time to meet on 
IRC or phone to work out any remaining changes.  We will also touch on 
some of these tasks at the release readiness meeting.

If I do not hear any feedback by Monday, February 2, 2009, I will assume 
that both the Documentation and Translation schedules are correct.

Thanks,
John



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Jan 28 01:04:11 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:04:11 -0800
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <1233090485.7082.17.camel@frankenbox>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<1233072124.3452.15.camel@frankenbox>
	<20090127204808.GM4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<1233090485.7082.17.camel@frankenbox>
Message-ID: <20090128010411.GA4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 09:08:05PM +0000, Jared Smith wrote:

> 1. How do we ensure that any editing that gets done in the CMS gets
> pushed back to the authoritative DocBook?  Should we make a rule that
> *no* editing be done in the CMS, and that the CMS is merely for viewing
> the final output of the process you described above?

That is a good rule.

Think of the CMS as like the package repository.

If we do carry a patch on a package, there is a bugzilla report open
that explains why, and it doesn't close until the patch is upstream.

So, we'd want a similar policy.  We might use the CMS to edit a
published document to get a fix up right away, but we'd want it tied
to a bug report that didn't close until the changes was ported to the
proper SCM instance.

> 2. How do we expect the CMS to handle multi-page HTML output from the
> toolchain above?  Typically, the XSL transforms our DocBook source into
> either single-page HTML, multi-page HTML, or PDF documents.  The one
> that concerns me the most is multi-page HTML.  Most CMS systems don't
> take to kindly to importing a whole set of HTML pages, especially ones
> that are all linked together and already have  elements, their own
> stylesheets, etc.  This point still makes me wonder if what we need is
> really a CMS, or just some kind of HTML-set management utility.

That's a good question.  My expectation is that a CMS _could_ and
_should_ handle this case.  (I just saw a Zikula module handle this.)

Maybe instead it imports the no-chunks (all-one-page) variety and then
chunks it itself inside of the CMS.

Or we autobuild from SCM to /srv/web/docs, then make container pages
in the CMS that link to the built per-lang PDF, HTML, etc. files.

OTOH, as you say, we may be looking for a different solution for this
publishing problem.  I just don't want us coding it ourselves, that
would be 'Plan F for FAIL.'

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From poelstra at redhat.com  Wed Jan 28 01:05:07 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:05:07 -0800
Subject: CMS discussions yet again
In-Reply-To: <1233077785.3823.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: 
	<1233077785.3823.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <497FAF43.5050109@redhat.com>

Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> So, is it asking a lot to delineate precisely what are the things the
> Docs project does/produces, so that maybe we - or, at the very least, I
> - can, collectively (or solitarily) understand that maybe we use this
> tool/process for that, and that tool/process for this?
> 

One way to get a sense for the major tasks and work products is to look 
at the schedule.
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html

I'll let someone else speak to the exact work products as I'm not an 
official docs person though I help maintain the schedule :)

John



From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com  Wed Jan 28 01:10:39 2009
From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 06:40:39 +0530
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <20090127094732.GH4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<35586fc00901262342t6556cac5tf1149ad51abc717@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090127094732.GH4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <35586fc00901271710v5a383593g49e2401cdf43af4a@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Karsten Wade  wrote:

[snipping off a very nicely written description]

> There is nothing about the current scm2web auto-publish system that a
> few tool changes can't fix, but we're tired and under-staffed for
> supporting a one-off, NIH content system.  Rather than teach its
> arcana to more people, I'd rather ditch it and move on.

Thank you for taking time to respond. It now makes sense.


-- 

http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published
http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science
http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work



From ccurran at redhat.com  Wed Jan 28 01:12:35 2009
From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:12:35 +1000
Subject: What is the purpose of a Docs CMS?
In-Reply-To: <20090127124150.GE30712@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090127072444.GF4822@calliope.phig.org>	<35586fc00901262342t6556cac5tf1149ad51abc717@mail.gmail.com>	<20090127094732.GH4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090127124150.GE30712@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <497FB103.3040402@redhat.com>

I'll reply to the OP as well. In time.

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 01:47:32AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
> [...a lot more than this, snip...]
>   
>> There is nothing about the current scm2web auto-publish system that a
>> few tool changes can't fix, but we're tired and under-staffed for
>> supporting a one-off, NIH content system.  Rather than teach its
>> arcana to more people, I'd rather ditch it and move on.
>>     
>
> Your previous posts are the clearest statements about Docs status in
> recent memory.  We just want people to be able to contribute
> meaningfully in a way that makes sense to them.
>   
This is software, nothing makes sense to most people. Computers are 
complex and strange devices. Simple does not exist and never has.
> * The wiki allows everyone to contribute with zero barrier to entry.
>   Write and publish immediately.  Since anyone can write anything
>   there, caveat emptor.
>   
"zero barrier" - This is a completely false assumption. I had to learn 
wiki markup, it took me weeks. I still go back to the mediawiki help 
section because it is not simple and straight forward. Easy for me is 
NOT the same as easy for others. There is a barrier to entry involved in 
every aspect of a documentation project. No one just wakes up in the 
morning and instantly knows how to write in English either. Stop 
assuming everyone has so much background knowledge.
> * A CMS with an easy editor would basically be the equivalent of "a
>   wiki you can trust just a bit more," because there's an editorial
>   staff dedicated to it by virtue of it being the "official"
>   documentation site.
>   
Again, easy for you is not the same as easy for everyone. You, like me 
most likely, have a strong background in computers and you have been 
using them for several years. Most people's experience with "text 
editors" is Microsoft Word anything else is complex and foreign.

"[dedicated] editorial staff " - Where are these editors coming from? At 
the moment we are struggling to keep the contributers and writers we 
have. Where are these (skilled and) dedicated editors coming from? Have 
they been lurking around waiting for a chance to edit for several years?

> It might be important to note that the CMS is really an experiment,
> something to try that we really haven't done yet.  If it doesn't work,
> the natural fall back might be to abandon all the editorial
> mumbo-jumbo and simply concentrate solely on the wiki from there on
> out.  That's a bridge that can be crossed later too.
>
>   
An experiment which is generating a lot of email unproductively. Can I 
ask this "is this getting any new documentation written?" Editing is a 
colossal waste of time without any actual documents in a completed 
state, ready for editing. This entire discussion is a waste of time.
> And of course, this is just my $0.02 as a Docs contributor.  A lot of
> the above is pure hogwash until (and unless) the next Docs leader
> agrees.
>
>   
My 0.05AUD of rage. I'm angry because the present process is rubbish. 
Getting things published on fp.org is near impossible. Until this 
process has less gates and walls hindering every attempt at pushing good 
documentation into fedora I am keeping my upstream work with the project 
sites(libvirt.org, ovirt.org, etc) who make it easy to publish documents 
and don't waste my time.

My vote on this matter is don't add to the present quagmire but to tear 
down the walls and free up fedora project. Any other upstream website is 
simpler to publish to than fedoraproject at the moment.


Chris (Tsagadai)



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Jan 28 01:35:13 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:35:13 -0800
Subject: CMS discussions yet again
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20090128013513.GB4822@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:51:29AM -0500, David Nalley wrote:
> Sparks, jsmith and I were talking in IRC and I thought the
> conversation should have a bit wider audience.
> 
> I think that while kbase and housing documentation for packaging
> guidelines and legal are excellent use cases for a CMS, I wonder if by
> trying to use it for everything we are not trying to use a hammer to
> drive a screw. My reason for saying that is that it seems like we are
> trying to push all of our non-wiki documentation into the CMS, which
> at least from my perspectives means we, to one degree or another, are
> abandoning DocBook.
> 
> For our 'heavy' documents, such as Release Notes, User Guide, and
> Security Guide, I don't see an escape from DocBook - it provides a lot
> of advantages that just don't exist in a CMS.  It does have
> disadvantages to be sure, but I guess the question in my mind is with
> all of the talk of moving to a CMS are we really prepared to ditch
> DocBook and it's benefits? Or is the CMS a solution for things like
> Legal and Packaging Guidelines, and potentially a knowledgebase, and
> not more?
> 
> Thoughts, Comments, Flames?

I think all of this was answered in my responses to other threads.

We have to consider a document as coming from an upstream.  The team
working on the document can choose from a wide variety of content
solutions -- 

* fp.org/wiki
* fhosted.org/$foo/wiki
* fhosted.org/$foo/$xml
* docs.fp.org/$cms (they will, you know they will)

To some degree, this Docs Project team needs to think of itself as
packagers.  Some content we package we produce ourselves; some we get
from upstreams.  Where we control the full lifecycle, we make certain
choices.  Where we cannot control the full lifecycle, we take what we
get and do what we need to it.

We 100% should have a consistent, best-practice, preferred, and
documented set of tools and process to take ideas to published.

We also need to accomodate the many places content is coming from and
not expect that we can enforce (all of) our styles on them.

There is a balance in here; from experience we can know "All
DocBook XML following this specific standard in our single version
control system" does not scale to support something the size of the
Fedora Project, much less just Fedora Linux.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From ccurran at redhat.com  Wed Jan 28 01:49:46 2009
From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:49:46 +1000
Subject: CMS discussions yet again
In-Reply-To: <20090128013513.GB4822@calliope.phig.org>
References: 
	<20090128013513.GB4822@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <497FB9BA.5050306@redhat.com>

Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:51:29AM -0500, David Nalley wrote:
>   
>> Sparks, jsmith and I were talking in IRC and I thought the
>> conversation should have a bit wider audience.
>>
>> I think that while kbase and housing documentation for packaging
>> guidelines and legal are excellent use cases for a CMS, I wonder if by
>> trying to use it for everything we are not trying to use a hammer to
>> drive a screw. My reason for saying that is that it seems like we are
>> trying to push all of our non-wiki documentation into the CMS, which
>> at least from my perspectives means we, to one degree or another, are
>> abandoning DocBook.
>>
>> For our 'heavy' documents, such as Release Notes, User Guide, and
>> Security Guide, I don't see an escape from DocBook - it provides a lot
>> of advantages that just don't exist in a CMS.  It does have
>> disadvantages to be sure, but I guess the question in my mind is with
>> all of the talk of moving to a CMS are we really prepared to ditch
>> DocBook and it's benefits? Or is the CMS a solution for things like
>> Legal and Packaging Guidelines, and potentially a knowledgebase, and
>> not more?
>>
>> Thoughts, Comments, Flames?
>>     
>
> I think all of this was answered in my responses to other threads.
>
> We have to consider a document as coming from an upstream.  The team
> working on the document can choose from a wide variety of content
> solutions -- 
>   
What upstream? We are just going to loot other distros docs now because 
they manage to get stuff published?

> * fp.org/wiki
> * fhosted.org/$foo/wiki
> * fhosted.org/$foo/$xml
> * docs.fp.org/$cms (they will, you know they will)
So four solutions is how to ensure consistency...



> To some degree, this Docs Project team needs to think of itself as
> packagers.  Some content we package we produce ourselves; some we get
> from upstreams.  Where we control the full lifecycle, we make certain
> choices.  Where we cannot control the full lifecycle, we take what we
> get and do what we need to it.
>
>   
What lifecycle? Most docs projects are stagnant wiki pages? Models are 
great when there is real development going on but a hindrance when there 
isn't.

> We 100% should have a consistent, best-practice, preferred, and
> documented set of tools and process to take ideas to published.
>
>   
Absolutely. That means one(1) solution. The kernel is almost entirely 
written in C and managed with git repositories. They don't have 14 
repository types and 10 different languages. Consistency is one size 
fits all. Only git and DocBook would be a consistent fedora docs 
project. Any other system is inconsistent by definition.

> We also need to accomodate the many places content is coming from and
> not expect that we can enforce (all of) our styles on them.
>
>   
You keep talking about content coming from places as if it actually is 
coming in. Last I looked there were two(2) documents actually being 
produced: the security guide and the release notes. Perhaps two is many 
in your world but most people's definition of many is more than that.

> There is a balance in here; from experience we can know "All
> DocBook XML following this specific standard in our single version
> control system" does not scale to support something the size of the
> Fedora Project, much less just Fedora Linux.
>
>   
Bull. It scales well with other projects. Referencing gentoo again 
because it is where I used to do a lot of documentation. Single SVN repo 
and GuideXML. They have several orders of magnitude more content than 
fedora project.

It simply doesn't scale with your desire to have fingers in every pie.

Chris



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Wed Jan 28 02:03:21 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:03:21 +1000
Subject: CMS discussions yet again
In-Reply-To: <497FB9BA.5050306@redhat.com>
References: 
	<20090128013513.GB4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<497FB9BA.5050306@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901271803u4ad18177vf78e3f8439099c5a@mail.gmail.com>

> It simply doesn't scale with your desire to have fingers in every pie.
>
> Chris

"fingers in every pie" is probably because he is the only person
willing to lead everything.



From sradvan at redhat.com  Wed Jan 28 03:49:47 2009
From: sradvan at redhat.com (Scott Radvan)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:49:47 +1000
Subject: Requesting SVN commit access
Message-ID: <20090128134947.4091d7b7@redhat.com>

Hi folks,



Am writing to request write access to SVN for the Security Guide.

I figured it might make things go a little quicker. It would also free
up Sparks from putting in my changes so that he can focus on other stuff
as well.

So, is this OK with you guys?

Cheers,


-- 
Scott Radvan, Content Author
Red Hat APAC (Brisbane) http://www.apac.redhat.com
"Emancipation from the bondage of the soil is no freedom for the tree."



From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 28 03:51:57 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:51:57 -0500
Subject: Requesting SVN commit access
In-Reply-To: <20090128134947.4091d7b7@redhat.com>
References: <20090128134947.4091d7b7@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <497FD65D.1000601@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm good with it.  I think either Mike or I have access to that.  Let me
check.

Eric


Scott Radvan wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> 
> 
> Am writing to request write access to SVN for the Security Guide.
> 
> I figured it might make things go a little quicker. It would also free
> up Sparks from putting in my changes so that he can focus on other stuff
> as well.
> 
> So, is this OK with you guys?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 28 04:06:14 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:06:14 -0500
Subject: Requesting SVN commit access
In-Reply-To: <497FD65D.1000601@christensenplace.us>
References: <20090128134947.4091d7b7@redhat.com>
	<497FD65D.1000601@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <497FD9B6.8080205@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Scott,
In FAS apply for the Security Guide Committers group.  I think Mike has
to approve you.

Eric


Eric Christensen wrote:
> I'm good with it.  I think either Mike or I have access to that.  Let me
> check.
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
> Scott Radvan wrote:
>> Hi folks,
> 
> 
> 
>> Am writing to request write access to SVN for the Security Guide.
> 
>> I figured it might make things go a little quicker. It would also free
>> up Sparks from putting in my changes so that he can focus on other stuff
>> as well.
> 
>> So, is this OK with you guys?
> 
>> Cheers,
> 
> 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From noriko at redhat.com  Wed Jan 28 05:47:03 2009
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:47:03 +1000
Subject: Fedora 11 Schedules
In-Reply-To: <497F9C23.70809@redhat.com>
References: <497F9C23.70809@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <497FF157.8060000@redhat.com>

John Poelstra ????????:
> I have complete a draft of the translation schedule for Fedora 11.  It 
> is based on the documentation schedule (which to date I have not 
> received any feedback).
> 
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-trans-tasks.html
> 
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html
> 
> A new report I am still ironing out (huge credit goes to Ben Kahn for 
> creating it for me) is a combined view of the Docs and Translations 
> schedule with different color codings for each team.
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-and-trans-tasks.html 
> 
> 
> 
> Please review the reports in detail to make sure I have the correct 
> dates and task durations.  If you like we can schedule a time to meet on 
> IRC or phone to work out any remaining changes.  We will also touch on 
> some of these tasks at the release readiness meeting.
> 
> If I do not hear any feedback by Monday, February 2, 2009, I will assume 
> that both the Documentation and Translation schedules are correct.
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> 
> -- 
Wow! I am so impressed with this great work!!
Thank you so much.

Just a couple of points noticed below.
The task numbers are based on "Fedora 11 Translation Tasks".

[Docs/Trans]
- #11 Translate Draft POT for Guides => typo of Translate Draft POs for 
Guides
- #17 Trans Deadline: rel-notes => pls change to Trans Deadline: **GA 
rel-notes
- #n/a there is no task item for IG which can be found at Docs Team 
Tasks #37?

[Releng/Trans]
- #3 Software String Freeze & #8 Rebuild all translated packages => 
those items can not be found in Releng Team Tasks. Those need to be 
included in Releng Team Tasks to let maintainers be aware important 
dates for their packages.

[Web/Trans]
- #19 Translate Final Release Banners => this item can not be found in 
Web Team Tasks. Web Team is responsible to pass the file to be translated.
- #n/a Trans Deadline: Final Release Banners => which should be 22-May, 
please add in Translation Tasks
- #20 Review and correct fedoraproject.org translations => what kind of 
action is expected by whom?

Thanks heaps!
noriko


> Fedora-trans-list mailing list
> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list



From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 28 12:53:33 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:53:33 -0500
Subject: REMINDER: FDSCo Meeting today at 19:00UTC
Message-ID: <4980554D.8040100@christensenplace.us>

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FDSCo Meeting today at 19:00UTC.
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From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net  Wed Jan 28 13:38:21 2009
From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:38:21 +0000
Subject: CMS discussions yet again
In-Reply-To: <497FB9BA.5050306@redhat.com>
References: 
	<20090128013513.GB4822@calliope.phig.org> <497FB9BA.5050306@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1233149901.7082.36.camel@frankenbox>

On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 11:49 +1000, Christopher Curran wrote:
> What lifecycle? Most docs projects are stagnant wiki pages? 

I respectfully disagree on this point.  Maybe I should take a moment to
explain that when the Fedora Docs Project talks about their
documentation, they're often referring to the formal documents (Release
notes, Security Guide, Software Management Guide, User Guide) as well as
the more informal documentation on the wiki.  In the case of formal
docs, we aim to provide leadership and oversight on the process, while
in the case of the informal documents on the wiki, our aim is to be more
of a gardener, not a gatekeeper.

In the case of some of these formal documents, the source is the wiki,
and our "lifecycle" is to convert the wiki to DocBook, and from there do
editing, translation, and publishing to HTML/PDF, and publishing on the
web.  (As an aside, doing the conversion from wiki -> DocBook is one of
the pieces I most enjoy and find my time is most valuable to the
project.)  Other formal documents started their life in some other
format, often times already being in DocBook format.  The same workflow
still applies, however... with editing, translation, format conversion,
and publishing.

In the case of the informal documents, their entire lifecycle is most
likely to be spent on the wiki.

Also, to call the wiki pages stagnant is a bit of a stretch.  There's a
lot happening in a lot of different places on the wiki (both directly
related to the docs project and otherwise), and I think it's incongruous
to paint the entire wiki with a broad brush and call it stagnant.

> You keep talking about content coming from places as if it actually is 
> coming in. Last I looked there were two(2) documents actually being 
> produced: the security guide and the release notes. Perhaps two is many 
> in your world but most people's definition of many is more than that.

There are a number of documents coming in.  I alone have worked on the
release notes, the installation guide, the software management guide,
and the user guide in the past few months, along with many of informal
docs on the wiki.

It may not compare to the number of docs you juggle in your ,
but that doesn't mean we're not working, as your post implies.

-Jared



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Wed Jan 28 15:36:12 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:36:12 -0500
Subject: F11 Release Notes Beat Writers
References: <49766741.8090107@christensenplace.us>
	<497D8C11.5060802@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <51B0E0E265334F419D5F0469CB70ABAF@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Ross" 
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 

Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 5:10 AM
Subject: Re: F11 Release Notes Beat Writers

> As a docs newbie... can I tag along with an existing beat writer?

Andrew

I'm a relative newbie, but since nobody else has put up their hand you are 
welcome to stalk me.

I'll also make a shameless plug for:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_be_a_release_notes_beat_writer

but mostly, find a beat that excites you and dive in!

--McD



From susan_lists at ties.org  Wed Jan 28 16:18:50 2009
From: susan_lists at ties.org (susan_lists at ties.org)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:18:50 -0500
Subject: REMINDER: FDSCo Meeting today at 19:00UTC
In-Reply-To: <4980554D.8040100@christensenplace.us>
References: <4980554D.8040100@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: 

Thanks for the reminder.

If I may make a suggestion... please add the link to the agenda in your
reminder template.
This one:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting

>From someone who often finds herself on on a different test machine or
classroom machine without the bookmark on meeting days.

Thanks
:)

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Eric Christensen
wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
> FDSCo Meeting today at 19:00UTC.
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> w80AnA+c6Z1HpHhYDZu/FThwpNahexL8
> =mIDy
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS)
Lauber System Solutions, Inc.
http://www.laubersolutions.com
gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE  4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974
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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Wed Jan 28 16:32:24 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:32:24 -0500
Subject: CMS choice - Zikula is the new Fedora CMS
Message-ID: 

Now that I have your attention:

So we walked away from FUDcon with a couple of plans.

Plan A: was to put a call out and see if we could get a group of
people interested from a project willing to take on some of the
implementation

We had a number of other plans but let's forget them for a moment, but
we circulated a call to several lists - and we received essentially a
single response from Zikula
Moreover the offering appears to meet the requirements that we stated.

Which brings me to the question - why are we languishing when it comes
to making this decision? We even regressed and talked about if/why we
need a CMS (and I am one of the guilty parties here)

This is plan A essentially fulfilled - I suggest we start making
preparations to move forward and I've already committed to work
getting Zikula packaged.



From jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net  Wed Jan 28 16:58:27 2009
From: jaredsmith at jaredsmith.net (Jared Smith)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:58:27 -0500
Subject: CMS choice - Zikula is the new Fedora CMS
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <1233161907.19680.23.camel@frankenbox>

On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 11:32 -0500, David Nalley wrote:
> Which brings me to the question - why are we languishing when it comes
> to making this decision? 

Because I don't feel we haven't fully been able to articulate our
reasons for wanting a CMS, and I think it would be premature to choose
one particular CMS before deciding if *any* CMS is the proper solution.

> We even regressed and talked about if/why we
> need a CMS (and I am one of the guilty parties here)

I'm probably the most guilty here, as I spent a lot of time last weekend
trying to figure out how we get a CMS to handle various aspects of
taking single-page HTML/multi-page (chunked) HTML/PDFs out of our
DocBook toolchain and into a CMS in such a way that it's not a hack.

If Zikula (or another CMS) already have provisions for this, then I'm
happy to move forward.  But based on the discussions both here on the
list and in the IRC channel, I don't feel my questions have been
adequately addressed.

My 2 cents (before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization)...

-Jared



From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Wed Jan 28 17:07:11 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:07:11 -0500
Subject: CMS choice - Zikula is the new Fedora CMS
In-Reply-To: <1233161907.19680.23.camel@frankenbox>
References: 
	<1233161907.19680.23.camel@frankenbox>
Message-ID: 

Inline reply

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Jared Smith  wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 11:32 -0500, David Nalley wrote:
>> Which brings me to the question - why are we languishing when it comes
>> to making this decision?
>
> Because I don't feel we haven't fully been able to articulate our
> reasons for wanting a CMS, and I think it would be premature to choose
> one particular CMS before deciding if *any* CMS is the proper solution.

Well I have two responses - how did we get to this stage of things
without articulating why we need the CMS. I think this goes back to
our scope issue more than anything. A CMS is a great tool for the
Packaging and Legal docs that are currently held on the wiki. And
based on the conversations in IRC it sounds like we want to use it as
a publishing platform. - ie - take the publican generated output of
DocBook and make pushing all of it up easier.

>
>> We even regressed and talked about if/why we
>> need a CMS (and I am one of the guilty parties here)
>
> I'm probably the most guilty here, as I spent a lot of time last weekend
> trying to figure out how we get a CMS to handle various aspects of
> taking single-page HTML/multi-page (chunked) HTML/PDFs out of our
> DocBook toolchain and into a CMS in such a way that it's not a hack.
>
> If Zikula (or another CMS) already have provisions for this, then I'm
> happy to move forward.  But based on the discussions both here on the
> list and in the IRC channel, I don't feel my questions have been
> adequately addressed.

This is something we need to ask - Simon - thoughts here?



>
> My 2 cents (before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization)...
>
> -Jared
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 28 17:14:17 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:14:17 -0500
Subject: CMS choice - Zikula is the new Fedora CMS
In-Reply-To: <1233161907.19680.23.camel@frankenbox>
References: 
	<1233161907.19680.23.camel@frankenbox>
Message-ID: <1233162857.3265.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 11:58 -0500, Jared Smith wrote:
> I'm probably the most guilty here, as I spent a lot of time last weekend
> trying to figure out how we get a CMS to handle various aspects of
> taking single-page HTML/multi-page (chunked) HTML/PDFs out of our
> DocBook toolchain and into a CMS in such a way that it's not a hack.

I was under the impression that Zikula uses XML on the back end?  Maybe
we don't import html into Zikula but rather push XML files (Doc Book) at
it and let it resolve them into webpages?

- Eric
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From public at itbegins.co.uk  Wed Jan 28 17:19:05 2009
From: public at itbegins.co.uk (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:19:05 -0000
Subject: CMS choice - Zikula is the new Fedora CMS
In-Reply-To: <1233161907.19680.23.camel@frankenbox>
References: 
	<1233161907.19680.23.camel@frankenbox>
Message-ID: <011601c9816c$85beb9d0$913c2d70$@co.uk>

Jared,

> If Zikula (or another CMS) already have provisions for this, then I'm
> happy to move forward.  But based on the discussions both here on the
> list and in the IRC channel, I don't feel my questions have been
> adequately addressed.

If I could direct you to
http://fedora.zikula.org/index.php?module=Static_Docs&func=view&f=pnguide/in
dex.html - that is some docbook documentation for PostNuke (the predecessor
to Zikula) written by myself in 2005.  It's the HTML many-page format, and
it's simply uploaded straight to the web.  The Static Docs module handles
URL rewriting, and pulls it into the CMS as you'd expect if you'd imported
each HTML page by hand.  You can either force the document to conform to the
website's styles (i.e strip all the inherent style information) or
alternatively use styling provided by the document itself.  Hopefully, that
answers your question regarding the docbook toolchain.

I'm happy to expand further and even get a sample of the Fedora docs up
there if you feel it would help.


Simon



From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Jan 28 17:26:54 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:26:54 -0500
Subject: CMS choice - Zikula is the new Fedora CMS
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<1233161907.19680.23.camel@frankenbox>
	
Message-ID: <20090128172654.GC11811@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:07:11PM -0500, David Nalley wrote:
> Inline reply
> 
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Jared Smith  wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 11:32 -0500, David Nalley wrote:
> >> Which brings me to the question - why are we languishing when it comes
> >> to making this decision?
> >
> > Because I don't feel we haven't fully been able to articulate our
> > reasons for wanting a CMS, and I think it would be premature to choose
> > one particular CMS before deciding if *any* CMS is the proper solution.
> 
> Well I have two responses - how did we get to this stage of things
> without articulating why we need the CMS. I think this goes back to
> our scope issue more than anything. A CMS is a great tool for the
> Packaging and Legal docs that are currently held on the wiki. And
> based on the conversations in IRC it sounds like we want to use it as
> a publishing platform. - ie - take the publican generated output of
> DocBook and make pushing all of it up easier.

Yes, the primary purpose is as a publishing platform.  The current
tools for doing that, which are highly manual, arcane, and require a
lot more skills, don't allow additional people to participate.

Keeping essential documents that are ACL-controlled on the wiki is the
other major point.  That's incongruous with the nature of the wiki,
and causes our admins additional work to tack on those controls.  If
those documents need to be protected, let them exist on a controlled
platform, and we can give the people maintaining them all the access
they need.

Anything else we can get on top of that is gravy -- good gravy to be
sure, but not good enough to block moving forward.

Just my $0.02.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 28 17:27:00 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:27:00 -0500
Subject: CMS choice - Zikula is the new Fedora CMS
In-Reply-To: <1233162857.3265.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: 
	<1233161907.19680.23.camel@frankenbox>
	<1233162857.3265.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1233163620.3265.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 12:14 -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> I was under the impression that Zikula uses XML on the back end?  Maybe
> we don't import html into Zikula but rather push XML files (Doc Book) at
> it and let it resolve them into webpages?
> 
> - Eric

Disregard my last...
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Jan 28 18:51:33 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:51:33 -0500
Subject: [FW: Re: what requires fedora-release-notes]
Message-ID: <20090128185133.GF11811@localhost.localdomain>

This just in from fedora-devel-list[1]:

----- Forwarded message from Jesse Keating  -----

From: Jesse Keating 
To: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
Organization: Red Hat
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:03:06 -0800
Subject: Re: what requires fedora-release-notes
X-BeenThere: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com

On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 19:02 +0100, Daniel Mach wrote:
>  
> Jesse, is there any important data in this package which needs to be 
> shipped in Fedora at any cost?
> I can imagine some legal or licensing information about Fedora.

I don't believe so.

----- End forwarded message -----

[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-January/msg01967.html

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From oglesbyzm at gmail.com  Wed Jan 28 19:23:52 2009
From: oglesbyzm at gmail.com (Zach Oglesby)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:23:52 +0100
Subject: F11 Release Notes Beat Writers
In-Reply-To: <51B0E0E265334F419D5F0469CB70ABAF@Aidan>
References: <49766741.8090107@christensenplace.us>
	<497D8C11.5060802@redhat.com>
	<51B0E0E265334F419D5F0469CB70ABAF@Aidan>
Message-ID: <20090128192352.GA31227@zaphod.local.lan>

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:36:12AM -0500, John J. McDonough wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Ross" 
> To: "For participants of the Documentation Project"  
> 
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 5:10 AM
> Subject: Re: F11 Release Notes Beat Writers
>
>> As a docs newbie... can I tag along with an existing beat writer?
>
> Andrew
>
> I'm a relative newbie, but since nobody else has put up their hand you 
> are welcome to stalk me.
>
> I'll also make a shameless plug for:
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_be_a_release_notes_beat_writer
>
> but mostly, find a beat that excites you and dive in!
>
> --McD
I am also a new to the docs team I would like to write but would anyone be willing to  mentor me, or just kinda check my work and keep me in the right direction?
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Jan 28 20:29:43 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:29:43 -0800
Subject: fresh leader
Message-ID: <20090128202943.GF5150@calliope.phig.org>

Thanks all for your thoughtful responses about leadership for this
project.

From that discussion I saw a reasonable consensus that was both good
and fair.  We just approved that consensus in the Docs meeting.

For the remainder of Fedora 11 release, I'm asking Eric Christensen
(Sparks) to step up as leader for the Fedora Documentation Project.
In essence, I am appointing him as a replacement, with the full
approval of all the people who usually show up to meetings and
discuss/approve stuff.

After Fedora 11 releases, we'll have a general election in this
project.  We can decide between now and then exactly what we are doing
-- electing one person, a council, for how long are the terms, etc.
Anyone who doesn't care about this stuff can just ignore those
threads. (Seriously.)

Rotating leadership more frequently is a good idea for this project.
We can give more of you a chance to get the experience and shape Docs
with your enthusiasm.

IMO, we've never had a stronger and more passionate group of
contributors in Docs.  This is a perfect time for new leadership to
emerge and take over.  So many are capable and interested in making
this project better and more successful.

As I said before, I'm not going anywhere; I'm just doing what is long
overdue so I can be more productive as a Docs contributor and this
project can improve through the art of change. :)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 28 21:49:25 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:49:25 -0500
Subject: New meeting time and day for Docs Meeting
Message-ID: <4980D2E5.4010805@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Wish so many new faces that have come aboard to work with the Docs
Project I think it is a good time to re-evaluate our meeting time.  I
created a matrix[1] that shows the available times and days when people
can generally meet.  I'd like to give more opportunities to our AU
friends as well as to those in school.

Please take a moment to edit the matrix to show when a good time for you
would be.  I encourage everyone that is interested in working with the
Docs Project to do this so we can make the decision with as much
information as possible.

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FDSCo_meeting_matrix

Thanks,
Eric Christensen
Fedora Docs Project

Fedora Talk: 5102043                  Phone: 919-424-0063 x 5102043
E-Mail/SIP Address: sparks at fedoraproject.org
IRC: Sparks on freenode.net

GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1

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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 28 22:46:26 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:46:26 -0500
Subject: fresh leader
In-Reply-To: <20090128202943.GF5150@calliope.phig.org>
References: <20090128202943.GF5150@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <4980E042.9060806@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Thank you, Karsten, for thinking I have what it takes to lead this most
excellent group.  Now I guess we'll see if I actually do!

I know I'll be asking not only Karsten and Paul for assistance but also
every member of this project.  We have some work ahead of us that needs
our attention:

* Release notes[1]
* New CMS to bring up and provide training/documentation for the rest of
Fedora
* The many guides that are in progress
* The wiki gardening
* Various projects on the task table[2]

Of the above projects I'm asking Ryan Lerch (ryanlerch) and John
McDonough (jjmcd) to head up the Release Notes and Ian Weller
(ianweller) to continue his leadership of the wiki.

Thanks for everyone's hard work.

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats
[2]
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Task_table


Thanks,
Eric Christensen
Fedora Docs Project

Fedora Talk: 5102043                  Phone: 919-424-0063 x 5102043
E-Mail/SIP Address: sparks at fedoraproject.org
IRC: Sparks on freenode.net

GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1



Karsten Wade wrote:
> Thanks all for your thoughtful responses about leadership for this
> project.
> 
> From that discussion I saw a reasonable consensus that was both good
> and fair.  We just approved that consensus in the Docs meeting.
> 
> For the remainder of Fedora 11 release, I'm asking Eric Christensen
> (Sparks) to step up as leader for the Fedora Documentation Project.
> In essence, I am appointing him as a replacement, with the full
> approval of all the people who usually show up to meetings and
> discuss/approve stuff.
> 
> After Fedora 11 releases, we'll have a general election in this
> project.  We can decide between now and then exactly what we are doing
> -- electing one person, a council, for how long are the terms, etc.
> Anyone who doesn't care about this stuff can just ignore those
> threads. (Seriously.)
> 
> Rotating leadership more frequently is a good idea for this project.
> We can give more of you a chance to get the experience and shape Docs
> with your enthusiasm.
> 
> IMO, we've never had a stronger and more passionate group of
> contributors in Docs.  This is a perfect time for new leadership to
> emerge and take over.  So many are capable and interested in making
> this project better and more successful.
> 
> As I said before, I'm not going anywhere; I'm just doing what is long
> overdue so I can be more productive as a Docs contributor and this
> project can improve through the art of change. :)
> 
> - Karsten
> 
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Jan 28 22:54:17 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:54:17 -0500
Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2008-01-28 IRC log
Message-ID: <4980E219.1000809@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

14:00 < Sparks> 
14:00 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting
14:00  * stickster here
14:00  * quaid is 50% here as [[User:Kwade|Karsten 'quaid' Wade]]
14:00  * jjmcd here
14:00  * Sparks here
14:00  * ke4qqq is here
14:01 < Sparks> Meeting agenda:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_28_January_2008
14:01 -!- zk-Simon [n=public at nat-studcudn-172-24-62-0.fitz.cam.ac.uk]
has joined #fedora-meeting
14:01  * laubersm here
14:02 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting -
Status on leadership (re)fresh
14:02 < Sparks> Okay, I'm going to turn this over to quaid before he has
to leave
14:02 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes at fedora/DemonJester] has quit [Read
error: 113 (No route to host)]
14:02 < quaid> yeah, I'm in a meeting call right now
14:02 < quaid> and have 1/2 attention
14:02 -!- jsmith-lunch
[n=nnnjsmit at asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:02 < quaid> so will be fast as I can
14:02 < quaid> first, thanks Sparks for taking the meeting today.
14:02 -!- jsmith-lunch is now known as jsmith
14:03 -!- kulll_ [n=kulll at 203.82.91.34] has quit [Read error: 60
(Operation timed out)]
14:03 < quaid> second, it's clear on the list to me that we can reach
consensus on leadership stuff with a scheme I have in mind.
14:03 < quaid> 1. I'd like to appoint Sparks to be Docs Lead for the
(rest of) F11; his willingness and coordinating/organizing are clear all
ready, and he
               is interested and able.
14:04 < quaid> 2. We can then have an election just after F11, including
deciding how long we want a leader to server (one or two releases)
14:04 < quaid> 3. There are a *ton* of you who are already leaders here
and could clearly or likely lead this project; that is rather unusual,
and awe
               inspiring to me.
14:05 < quaid> in fact, more current contributors are capable of leading
this team for a release than not, which is cool.
14:05 < quaid> 4. Then I can be a good Lt., help the transition, and
help with making future leadership easier, as well as future
contributing (hand-in-hand
               problem)
14:05 < quaid> so, even if I haven't talked with you about being in the
smaller group of those who actively lead ...
14:06 < quaid> I will :)
14:06 < jsmith> +1 on the nomination
14:06 < quaid> and I'll encourage each of you to continue in that mode
- -- show while doing
14:06 < Sparks> +1 on term limits :)
14:06 < quaid> :D
14:06 < stickster> +1 on the nomination
14:06  * laubersm tags Sparks
14:06 < jjmcd> +1
14:06 < ke4qqq> +1 for sparks
14:07 -!- John5342 [n=john5342 at fedora/John5342] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:07  * stickster will be around to be a Lt. Lt. too
14:07 < quaid> I'd also especially like to ask you all to really step up
in helping make Sparks successful
14:07 < stickster> +2.
14:07 < quaid> (not that you aren't ...)
14:07 < quaid> which means e.g. more 6s fun from jjmcd and jsmith  :)
14:07 -!- baard1973 [n=baard197 at 143.121.192.249] has quit ["Leaving"]
14:07 < Sparks> :)
14:07 < jjmcd> :-)
14:07 < quaid> in case it's not obvious, it's the mix of skills,
personality, and hard work ethics that makes the team work best.
14:08 < quaid> and this is truly the strongest group of docs
contributors that Fedora has yet seen, IMNSHO.
14:08 < quaid> one remaining item is the F11 release notes; I'm
concerned about overloading Sparks
14:08 < quaid> and would suggest we consider taking ryanlerch up on his
offer;
14:08  * jsmith puts away his (non-existant) campaign posters and
buckles down for a great release (and release-notes!) for F11
14:08 < quaid> he just got off a big relnotes release and is ready to go
and available, afaict
14:09 < Sparks> +1 to ryanlerch
14:09 < quaid> that would help e.g. jjmcd get more comfortable with how
the relnotes run, so he can do it for F12
14:09 < ke4qqq> +1
14:09 < jsmith> +1 to ryanlerch as well
14:09 < jsmith> +1 to jjmcd being his shadow
14:09 < jjmcd> Sounds good to me
14:09 < laubersm> +1
14:10 < quaid> nice!
14:10  * quaid loves the smell of consensus in the morning ...
14:10 < quaid> it's the smell of community!
14:10 < jsmith> quaid: (You're on a roll... no disagreement from anyone!)
14:10 < stickster> I think the Relnotes definitely need a separate
Someone. +1.
14:10 < quaid> are there any lagging leadership issues?
14:10 < jjmcd> I notice ryanlerch isn't here to defend himself
14:10 < quaid> I'll do a formal email to the list after the meeting, etc.
14:10 < quaid> jjmcd: heh
14:10 < ke4qqq> someone bring up the controversial stuff before we slip
out of consensus :)
14:10 < quaid> jjmcd: I sent him email asking him to come by
#fedora-docs this afternoon to discuss
14:10 < quaid> after I sort-of blew him off on list trying to keep the
balance.
14:11 < Sparks> Anymore discussion?
14:11 < quaid> ok, I'm done then; and would love to see everyone figure
out the CMS discussion _without_ having to explain my own thinking
again; that's
               getting boring to y'all
14:12  * jjmcd is beginning to develop an opinion on that, that's dangerous
14:12  * zk-Simon is here in case of questions
14:12 < Sparks> Okay, well, thanks for the support and as my first order
of business...
14:12 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting -
CMS Plan
14:12 < Sparks> I'll change the topic.
14:12 < stickster> heh
14:12 < stickster> +1! The crowd goes wild!
14:12 -!- ldimaggi_ [n=ldimaggi at c-76-19-171-76.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has
quit ["Leaving"]
14:13 < Sparks> So today has been an interesting day for CMS discussions.
14:13 -!- ldimaggi_ [n=ldimaggi at c-76-19-171-76.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has
joined #fedora-meeting
14:13 < Sparks> Was anyone not around #f-docs for the conversation?
14:13  * jjmcd caught much of it, think I came in the middle, but I
figured out hwere it eas headed
14:14 < stickster> It was full of vim and vinegar
14:14  * laubersm thinks "which one?" and runs
14:14 < stickster> Especially since I know jsmith likes vim.
14:14 < jjmcd> ewwwww
14:14 < Sparks> jsmith: I'd like to get your input about the CMS
solution discussion, please.
14:14 < stickster> No one is full of Emacs and vinegar, after all.
14:14 < jsmith> stickster: Amen!
14:14 < quaid> stickster: only a pickle
14:14 < stickster> quaid: Oho! You win, good sirrah.
14:15 < jsmith> Sparks: I'm on the phone right this second, but I'm now
in general agreement with the proposals at hand.
14:15 -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes at mod001-notes1.modpac.com] has quit
[Connection timed out]
14:15 < Sparks> Okay, does anyone have any concerns about standing up a
CMS solution?
14:15 < ke4qqq> so at the risk of pushing ahead - I think we should go
with Zikula - they are the only planA solution
14:16 < ke4qqq> and they seem to meet the requirements technically
14:16 < Sparks> ke4qqq: I know Word Press was interviewed.  I haven't
felt much energy from them, though.
14:16 < jjmcd> We got something that seems to meet the reqts and someone
willing to chop off the chicken's head, so where's the problem
14:16 < ke4qqq> and I think if we decide to press ahead that I am the
constraint
14:16 < ke4qqq> jjmcd: exactly!
14:16 < stickster> Has anyone asked the responsible parties for Legal,
PackagingGuidelines, etc. about their thoughts? Not sure that's a
requirement.
14:16 < zk-Simon> If anyone has reservations, I would like to hear them.
 Either to put them straight or alternatively to make sure I put
specific focus on
                  their concerns as we move forward
14:16 < Sparks> stickster: Good point.
14:17 < quaid> their requirement was to not have to work *harder*
14:17 < quaid> and spot said he trusted us to not mess them up, iirc
14:17 < Sparks> How about this, let's vote on Zikula pending no major
problems from the other areas.
14:17 < quaid> zikula++
14:17 < stickster> Which I think we can guarantee. Zikula has editing
capabilities on par with MW>
14:17 < ke4qqq> yep
14:18 < ke4qqq> +1 for zikula
14:18 < laubersm> +1 for taking the next step
14:18 < Sparks> +1 for Zikula
14:18 < jjmcd> +
14:19 < stickster> +1
14:19 < zk-Simon> Ok, well that seems positive
14:19 < Sparks> That sounds like a pass to me.
14:19 < zk-Simon> Next step?  What do you want from me?
14:20 < Sparks> I'll write it up this afternoon and make sure we have
the support from others.
14:20 < ke4qqq> next step is packaging iirc, and I think that is still
on my plate
14:20 -!- itamarjp
[n=itamar at 189-015-176-126.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br] has quit
[Remote closed the connection]
14:20 < Sparks> zk-Simon: If you don't mind being on hand today and
tomorrow for any questions from other groups.
14:20  * ke4qqq is fail for not already having it done
14:20 < zk-Simon> It just so happens we have a RPM build for Zikula as
of a couple of days ago
14:20 < Sparks> Yes, packaging is high priority
14:20 < ke4qqq> zk-Simon: Link?
14:20 < jjmcd> Ohhh, that was my only concern, would be nice to see it
packaged
14:20 -!- SmootherFrOgZ [n=Xavier at fedora/SmootherFrOgZ] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:21 < ke4qqq> yeah for us to use it, it must live in fedora
14:21 < quaid> we should be able to start playing on the publictest
instance even without the package
14:21 < zk-Simon> Sparks: No link, I'd ahve to upload it somewhere (in
my email inbox I think)
14:21 -!- mizmo [n=duffy at c-66-31-44-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:21 < Sparks> zk-Simon: Get with ke4qqq on that.
14:21 -!- itamarjp
[n=itamar at 189-015-176-126.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:21 < quaid> so for zk-Simon that means applying for sysadmin and
sysadmin-test with anyone from zikula.org who is helping
14:21 < ke4qqq> zk-Simon: SRPM and spec file please - feel free to send
it to the list or me privately
14:21 < quaid> zk-Simon: those are FAS groups
14:22 < quaid> mmcgrath can tell us if he wants to make a new
sysadmin-cms ...
14:22 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Can you help zk-Simon with getting FAS accounts
squared away?
14:22 < zk-Simon> ok.  Have to hold my hand a little here since I don't
know your processess
14:22 < ke4qqq> Sparks: yep - we'll take care of it after the meeting
14:22 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Thank you
14:22 < ke4qqq> np
14:23 < Sparks> Anything else on the CMS?
14:23 < zk-Simon> I'll be around for as long as necessary tomorrow, but
I'm out for a couple of hours at least from the end of the meeting
14:23 -!- danielsmw [n=danielsm at user-24-214-179-165.knology.net] has
joined #fedora-meeting
14:24  * stickster is happy to see such verve and vigor in the Docs
meeting again :-)
14:24 < ke4qqq> zk-Simon: ok - I am around quite a bit, just ping me
when you have some time
14:24 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting -
Status on Release Notes document
14:25 < Sparks> I know we are going to have to do some switching around
on this...
14:25 < Sparks> I know we need beat writers for various subjects.
14:26 < Sparks> Does anyone have any questions on this?  I should be
better prepared next week.
14:26 < ke4qqq> do we have a list of what beats have no writers?
14:26 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Yes...
14:26  * Sparks goes hunting for the link
14:26 < Sparks> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats
14:27 < Sparks> All 48 of them (plus or minus)
14:27 < Sparks> The page still needs some cleaning up.
14:27 < Sparks> I sent out an email to everyone that was listed from
F10.  If they were continueing on then they removed the "*" from beside
their name.
14:27 < ke4qqq> so - can we delegate that out 'beat writer hunting' now?
14:28 < Sparks> But there are a lot of open spots that could use some love
14:28 < Sparks> ke4qqq: sure
14:28 < stickster> Makes sense to move on to finding new writers.
14:28 < Sparks> stickster: :1
14:28 < Sparks> +1
14:28 < Sparks> Yeah, we are WAY behind on this.
14:29 < stickster> It's not that bad, I don't think
14:29 < stickster> But it wouldn't hurt to start contacting people
responsible for packages that are central to the beat
14:29 < Sparks> We have had quite a few people sign up for slots in the
past week which is really good.
14:29 < stickster> i.e. fedora-kernel-list, or the virt list, or...
14:29 < stickster> Typically those developers do start devoting more
time post-Beta
14:29 < Sparks> stickster: Absolutely.
14:30 < stickster> But it's incumbent upon us to... keep them from
forgetting ;-)
14:30 < jjmcd> Some of the major devtools came up as new beats.  Not
sure that e.g. Emacs needs its own beat, but most of those I expect to do
14:30 < stickster> jjmcd: They're coming up as new beats because they're
transcluded pages
14:31 < jjmcd> ahhh yeah, you mentioned how you like that
14:31  * stickster loathes transcludes in the relnotes beats... headaches!
14:31 < Sparks> yeah
14:31 < stickster> I think it would be sensible to provide a key for
people to know where to file their notes on "Package XYZ"
14:31 < jjmcd> Some may make sense, tho.  The Haskell group seems pretty
active, actually, might be good to recruit someone there
14:31 < stickster> Then kill the transcludes
14:32 < quaid> +1 to death of transcludes
14:32 < Sparks> +1
14:32 < quaid> they aren't needed
14:32 < stickster> Every time we try to be clever, we generally
out-clever ourselves :-D
14:32 < quaid> you said it!
14:33 < danielsmw> lol
14:33 < stickster> If Ian had been around he'd have slapped sense into us
14:33 < Sparks> Well, he can now
14:33 < ke4qqq> I think he actually prefers setting people on fire :)
14:33 < quaid> with a sharp fork to the eyes first
14:33 < Sparks> jjmcd: Do you want to start beating the drum on the...
beats?
14:34 < jjmcd> Sure 'nuff
14:34 -!- cassmodiah [n=cass at fedora/cassmodiah] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:34 < Sparks> jjmcd: Okay, let me know if you need anything.
Targetting the groups that aren't represented would be great.
14:34 < Sparks> jjmcd: And maybe something up on planet.
14:34 -!- petreu [n=peter at fedora/petreu] has quit ["( www.nnscript.de ::
NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"]
14:34  * jjmcd gotta get hooked up there yet
14:35 < Sparks> jjmcd: I can put something up there in the mean time.  :)
14:35 < jjmcd> cool
14:35 < Sparks> Anything else?
14:35 < ke4qqq> jjmcd: lets work on that after the meeting
14:36 < ke4qqq> I owe work for that to danielsmw as well
14:36 < jjmcd> roger that
14:37 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting -
DocsProject page changes
14:37 < Sparks> ianweller is working with G_work to get the wikibot
turned loose on the Docs Pages.
14:37 < danielsmw> ke4qqq: I'll join in after this then
14:37 < stickster> sweet
14:38 < Sparks> Apparently there are some problems with the bot so
G_work is working on that.
14:38 < Sparks> I'll let ianweller talk about it later.
14:38 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project -
John Poelstra's schedule
14:39 < Sparks> ke4qqq: What'd did you come up with from the conference
call?
14:40 < ke4qqq> so releng is going to handle alpha announcement
14:40 < ke4qqq> and keep it
14:40 < ke4qqq> 'permanently'
14:40 < ke4qqq> we are taking Beta and GA release announcements
14:40 < quaid> sweet
14:41 < Sparks> ke4qqq: That works.
14:41 < Sparks> Did everyone get a chance to look at the schedule that
John sent out?
14:41 < ke4qqq> essentially eof from me - I have more details from the
call - but none that relate to docs project.
14:42 -!- petreu [n=peter at fedora/petreu] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:42 < stickster> ke4qqq: Probably worth sending something to the
f-docs-list to memorialize
14:42 < Sparks> +1
14:42 < jjmcd> look at, yes; digest, no
14:42 < Sparks> jjmcd: Yeah
14:42 < stickster> I'll take the action item to get Poelstra to add the
appropriate actions to the docs tasks list
14:42 < Sparks> stickster: Thank you
14:42  * jsmith stumbles back from a phone conference
14:43 < laubersm> what jjmcd said
14:43 < jsmith> (Silly $dayjob... gotta get Fedora or Red Hat to hire me)
14:43 < ke4qqq> lol
14:43 < Sparks> jsmith: Yeah, me too.
14:43 < jjmcd> That whole working for a living thing really sucks,doesn't it
14:43 < Sparks> Okay, lets take the week to digest what needs to be done
and come back to it next week
14:44 < jsmith> jjmcd: I don't mind working... it's the politics that
grate on my nerves
14:44  * jjmcd remembers that, but bing a full-time bum is a much
sweeter gig
14:44 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Meeting -
Go over task table

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Task_table
14:44  * quaid done with his meeting
14:44 < quaid> that table is a bit out of date, sorry :)
14:44 < laubersm> I was noticing that :)
14:45 < Sparks> It looks like we need to garden our table!
14:45 < quaid> heh
14:46 < quaid> I can edit and make changes while we discuss the updates,
if you'd like
14:46 < quaid> (if you aren't already someone)
14:46 < jjmcd> seems like we have a bunch of projects that need to be
transcluded in that list
14:46 < quaid> items missing from there?  yes
14:48  * quaid edits the page now
14:48 -!- lfoppiano [n=lfoppian at fedora/lfoppiano] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:49 < stickster> Yay table gardening :-)
14:49 < jjmcd> Looks like some things are dealt with, some need more
detail.  e.g. now that we have a CMS strategy we need to lay out the steps.
14:49 < quaid> for the first item, we are waiting on page renaming, right?
14:49 < stickster> more or less, I suppose.
14:50 < quaid> how do we feel about our toolchain now?
14:50 < quaid> is that still an open task?
14:50 -!- fab__ [n=bellet at bellet.info] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:51 < jjmcd> I suspect it will evolve post-CMS, wonder whether we
should stress over it before
14:51 < ke4qqq> I thought our focus was to move to publican?
14:51 < quaid> s
14:51 < ke4qqq> independent of any cms
14:51 < quaid> yes
14:51 < jjmcd> I assume so
14:51 < quaid> but fedora-doc-utils still has some purpose, etc.
14:52 < quaid> how about jsmith, stickster, and I discuss next chance on
IRC to see where that is and what needs to be done?
14:52 < jjmcd> But what is the point of CMS if it doesn't help our
processes?  Not sure we know exactly HOW yet
14:52 < quaid> this toolchain stuff is primarily the work that happens
just before the CMS pulls the content in.
14:52 < quaid> but it's possible there will be stuff to *add* to the
toolchain as part of the CMS work.
14:53 < jjmcd> Yes, I gather that.  I suspect, tho, some things will
want to change
14:53 < jjmcd> Yeah, maybe add, maybe subtract
14:53 < quaid> ok, I marked it as ongoing
14:53 < quaid> and that the three principals for that task will talk and
decide what up
14:54 < jsmith> Sounds like a plan
14:54 < quaid> publican migration ... next chance I might work on that
during FAD at SCaLE 7x?
14:54 < quaid> there is a branch for migrating the IG
14:54 < stickster> I think the f-d-u is a pet project only at this
point, so yeah, we'll discuss that offline
14:54 < quaid> jsmith: have you looked at that?
14:54 < stickster> ("offline" == "not here, probably online")
14:54 < jsmith> quaid: Got started at FudCON, then ran into problems,
haven't picked it back up yet
14:55 < jsmith> quaid: May have some time next week, while I'm playing
'Booth Babe' at a conference in Miami
14:55 < stickster> jsmith: Apparently ryanlerch did a migration of our
release notes that he claims was fairly painles
14:55 < stickster> *painless, even
14:55 < stickster> I asked him to locate and augment our guidance for
doing that procedure on the wiki
14:55 < ke4qqq> stickster: did he document the process?
14:55 < jsmith> stickster: That's great to hear!
14:55 < stickster> ke4qqq: q.v. ^^
14:56 < quaid> ok, next item
14:56 < quaid> team per document is completed.
14:56 < quaid> right?
14:56 < ke4qqq> well at least lead
14:57 < jjmcd> For some, like RL, recruiting the team will be an ongoing
thing, and for all probably some need
14:57 < quaid> ok, lead writer id'd still working on team
14:57 < quaid> jjmcd: yep, I just put 'ongoing' as deadline :)
14:58 -!- zoglesby [n=zoglesby at fsf/member/zoglesby] has joined
#fedora-meeting
14:58 < quaid> ok I'll put the CMS status under that task
14:58 -!- CheekyBoinc [n=CheekyBo at fedora/CheekyBoinc] has quit [Remote
closed the connection]
14:59 < Sparks> 1 minute warning
14:59 < quaid> the future of fedora docs stuff is resolved; that was all
about 'get a leader who isn't stale in the head'
14:59 < quaid> the rest is fine
14:59 < stickster> The biggest issue before the group has been cleared,
that's a good meeting in my bookk.
14:59  * quaid thinks that is the task list done
14:59 < stickster> Sparks: We're here for you, and know you'll do a good
job.
14:59 < quaid> stickster: heck, we touched upon everything to boot!
14:59 < Sparks> :)
14:59 < Sparks> stickster: thanks.
15:00 < Sparks> Anyone have anything else?
15:00 < quaid> let's call it :0
15:00 < Sparks> 5
15:00 < laubersm> Thanks Sparks!!!!
15:00 < Sparks> 4
15:00 < Sparks> 3
15:00 < Sparks> 2
15:00 < Sparks> 1
15:00 < Sparks> Thanks folks!
15:00 < jjmcd> And the crowd roars
15:00 < Sparks> 
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Thu Jan 29 00:38:42 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:38:42 -0500
Subject: Rampoing up for F11
References: <20090128202943.GF5150@calliope.phig.org>
	<4980E042.9060806@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: 

Eric, this is really directed at you and Ryan, but I thought the response 
might be worthwhile for other beat writers.

I suspect it is past time to start clearing out the F10 release notes from 
the wiki and ramping up for F11.  But there are some questions that occur:

1) First, obviously, it is really time?

2) Paul mentioned an update release of F10 Release Notes.  Should we be 
planning that?  Did it sneak by me?  Are we going to pass on it this time?

3) In some places (especially Devel Tools) we had lots of transclusions 
which gave Paul all kind of fits.  For F11, many of those fragments don't 
even look like they will be needed.  As we flatten the files, should we just 
rename the old entries to, for example, Archive:Docs/Beats/Devel/Tools/Emacs

4) I gather alpha RNs are really only major, major changes.  I see few/none 
of those on my beats, BUT, there are some changes that are a really big deal 
to those affected.  How should we make those calls?

Hey, nobody said it would be easy.

--McD



From poelstra at redhat.com  Thu Jan 29 01:06:30 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:06:30 -0800
Subject: Fedora 11 Schedules
In-Reply-To: <497FF157.8060000@redhat.com>
References: <497F9C23.70809@redhat.com> <497FF157.8060000@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49810116.9060509@redhat.com>

Noriko Mizumoto said the following on 01/27/2009 09:47 PM Pacific Time:
> John Poelstra ????????:
>> I have complete a draft of the translation schedule for Fedora 11.  It 
>> is based on the documentation schedule (which to date I have not 
>> received any feedback).
>>
>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-trans-tasks.html
>>
>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html
>>
>> A new report I am still ironing out (huge credit goes to Ben Kahn for 
>> creating it for me) is a combined view of the Docs and Translations 
>> schedule with different color codings for each team.
>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-and-trans-tasks.html 
>>

-cut-

>> -- 
> Wow! I am so impressed with this great work!!
> Thank you so much.

You are welcome!  Your detailed review was exactly what I was hoping 
for.  After spending so much time looking at all the different views of 
the schedule it is easy to miss things.

> Just a couple of points noticed below.
> The task numbers are based on "Fedora 11 Translation Tasks".
> 
> [Docs/Trans]
> - #11 Translate Draft POT for Guides => typo of Translate Draft POs for 
> Guides
done

> - #17 Trans Deadline: rel-notes => pls change to Trans Deadline: **GA 
> rel-notes
done

> - #n/a there is no task item for IG which can be found at Docs Team 
> Tasks #37?

IG (install guide) is included now as part of "All Guides".  For Fedora 11
the docs team (Karsten @ FUDCon) told me they are planning on releasing 
the Install Guide and
Security Guide.  There could be others too so they preferred to just 
call it generically "All Guides".

> [Releng/Trans]
> - #3 Software String Freeze & #8 Rebuild all translated packages => 
> those items can not be found in Releng Team Tasks. Those need to be 
> included in Releng Team Tasks to let maintainers be aware important 
> dates for their packages.
done

You raise a good point here.  What we probably need is a schedule view 
just for package maintainers and developers.  I will create this by next 
Monday or sooner if I have time.  Look for it in the navigation bar at 
the top of any of the reports.

> [Web/Trans]
> - #19 Translate Final Release Banners => this item can not be found in 
> Web Team Tasks. Web Team is responsible to pass the file to be translated.
> - #n/a Trans Deadline: Final Release Banners => which should be 22-May, 
> please add in Translation Tasks
> - #20 Review and correct fedoraproject.org translations => what kind of 
> action is expected by whom?

Excellent catches!  I confess to having a very basic understanding of 
the whole l10n process particularly as it relates to artwork and 
banners... is it correct to assume it follows the same POT->PO process? 
  Following that assumption I added more tasks for the web team.  Please 
tell me if I've got it right or correct me :)

Re: "Review and correct fedoraproject.org translations"... I have no 
idea.  This was a carry-over from Fedora 10.  Can anyone else tell us 
what this task should be?

Thanks,
John



From eric at christensenplace.us  Thu Jan 29 01:14:04 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:14:04 -0500
Subject: Rampoing up for F11
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20090128202943.GF5150@calliope.phig.org>	<4980E042.9060806@christensenplace.us>
	
Message-ID: <498102DC.50802@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

John J. McDonough wrote:
> 1) First, obviously, it is really time?
Yes, it's time to get rolling on F11.

> 2) Paul mentioned an update release of F10 Release Notes.  Should we be
> planning that?  Did it sneak by me?  Are we going to pass on it this time?
Maybe.  I missed that comment.  I'm not sure when we would do an update.
 I think we should be concentrating on getting F11 ready to go but if we
have anything to update F10's notes then lets do it.

> 3) In some places (especially Devel Tools) we had lots of transclusions
> which gave Paul all kind of fits.  For F11, many of those fragments
> don't even look like they will be needed.  As we flatten the files,
> should we just rename the old entries to, for example,
> Archive:Docs/Beats/Devel/Tools/Emacs
I thought I flattened all the files (might not have changed the links in
the table).  If you don't need it just throw it in Archive:.

> 4) I gather alpha RNs are really only major, major changes.  I see
> few/none of those on my beats, BUT, there are some changes that are a
> really big deal to those affected.  How should we make those calls?
Go with your gut.  When in doubt write them up.  We can edit them out in
the end product if necessary but I'd rather have to cut stuff rather
than not have it.

> 
> Hey, nobody said it would be easy.
As I'm finding out as well.  I think Ryan will be a big help in this
area, though.
> 
> --McD
> 
- -- Eric
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Thu Jan 29 12:27:27 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:27:27 -0500
Subject: Preparing for F11 Release Notes
Message-ID: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>

In going through the wiki removing hash marks, I noticed that there are a 
number of places where there is content that we want to keep for F11, so I 
guess we probably don't want to be too reckless in the pre-F11 cleanup.

On the other hand, I was reminded while doing that is that one reason that 
we may want to issue an F10 update is that some F9 content, which was 
inappropriate for F10, made it into the F10 release notes.  So we definitely 
want to be a little more thorough in our scrubbing.

--McD



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Jan 29 12:56:25 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:56:25 -0500
Subject: Preparing for F11 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>
References: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>
Message-ID: <20090129125625.GB27203@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 07:27:27AM -0500, John J. McDonough wrote:
> In going through the wiki removing hash marks, I noticed that there are a  
> number of places where there is content that we want to keep for F11, so I 
> guess we probably don't want to be too reckless in the pre-F11 cleanup.
>
> On the other hand, I was reminded while doing that is that one reason that 
> we may want to issue an F10 update is that some F9 content, which was  
> inappropriate for F10, made it into the F10 release notes.  So we 
> definitely want to be a little more thorough in our scrubbing.

When scrubbing in the past, I tended to look at the page history for
each beat to see when the last update was made.  If it was made before
the GA release notes push, I knew the beat contained nothing new.  If
there was something new, I'd try and retain that piece, which I'd
locate using the diff function on the wiki history page.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Thu Jan 29 13:09:22 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:09:22 -0500
Subject: Preparing for F11 Release Notes
References: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>
	<20090129125625.GB27203@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3DD69E0C5F7B40F98BEA8481AC61716B@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul W. Frields" 
To: "John J. McDonough" ; "For participants of the 
Documentation Project" 
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Preparing for F11 Release Notes

> When scrubbing in the past, I tended to look at the page
> history for each beat to see when the last update was made.

The things that drove that comment were a little unusual.  There is some 
content, for example around locating codecs, that is probably worthwhile to 
include in the release notes even if it doesn't change.  On the other hand, 
it is easy to overlook some of that stuff that needs update.  At the last 
minute we scrambled around to get updated Flash installtion instuctions on 
the wiki, but the inappropriate Fedora 9 content actually appeared in the 
release notes (I just now filed a bug even though I noticed that shortly 
after release -- my bad).

72/73 de WB8RCR    http://www.qsl.net/wb8rcr
didileydadidah     QRP-L #1446 Code Warriors #35



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Jan 29 13:20:06 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:20:06 -0500
Subject: Preparing for F11 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <3DD69E0C5F7B40F98BEA8481AC61716B@Aidan>
References: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>
	<20090129125625.GB27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<3DD69E0C5F7B40F98BEA8481AC61716B@Aidan>
Message-ID: <20090129132006.GD27203@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 08:09:22AM -0500, John J. McDonough wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Paul W. Frields" 
>> When scrubbing in the past, I tended to look at the page
>> history for each beat to see when the last update was made.
>
> The things that drove that comment were a little unusual.  There is
> some content, for example around locating codecs, that is probably
> worthwhile to include in the release notes even if it doesn't
> change.  On the other hand, it is easy to overlook some of that
> stuff that needs update.  At the last minute we scrambled around to
> get updated Flash installtion instuctions on the wiki, but the
> inappropriate Fedora 9 content actually appeared in the release
> notes (I just now filed a bug even though I noticed that shortly
> after release -- my bad).

Right, and I think there's also some precedent for this in the
Installer beat, where there are some average-sized changes from
release to release, but even the unchanging information is extremely
valuable to the user.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Jan 29 15:09:27 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:39:27 +0530
Subject: Preparing for F11 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <20090129132006.GD27203@localhost.localdomain>
References: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>	<20090129125625.GB27203@localhost.localdomain>	<3DD69E0C5F7B40F98BEA8481AC61716B@Aidan>
	<20090129132006.GD27203@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4981C6A7.7030001@fedoraproject.org>

Paul W. Frields wrote:

> Right, and I think there's also some precedent for this in the
> Installer beat, where there are some average-sized changes from
> release to release, but even the unchanging information is extremely
> valuable to the user.

Is it worth moving that kind of information out of the release notes 
into the wiki or published guides and just add a reference?  The 
installer beat information could move into the installation guide for 
the most part, I think.

Others have pointed out that carrying the same information across 
releases makes it difficult to spot what has truly changed which I think 
is a important point.

Rahul



From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Jan 29 15:35:13 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:35:13 -0500
Subject: Preparing for F11 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <4981C6A7.7030001@fedoraproject.org>
References: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>
	<20090129125625.GB27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<3DD69E0C5F7B40F98BEA8481AC61716B@Aidan>
	<20090129132006.GD27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<4981C6A7.7030001@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <20090129153506.GD11073@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 08:39:27PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Paul W. Frields wrote:
>
>> Right, and I think there's also some precedent for this in the
>> Installer beat, where there are some average-sized changes from
>> release to release, but even the unchanging information is extremely
>> valuable to the user.
>
> Is it worth moving that kind of information out of the release notes into 
> the wiki or published guides and just add a reference?  The installer beat 
> information could move into the installation guide for the most part, I 
> think.
>
> Others have pointed out that carrying the same information across  
> releases makes it difficult to spot what has truly changed which I think  
> is a important point.

Actually, that is a good point.  We would want to keep a few factoids
there like minimum memory and so forth, because the Release Notes are
probably an order of magnitude more consulted than the IG.  Those
factoids also happen to be the most likely to change over time, so
this sounds sensible to me.

Whoever handles the Installer beat should probably check this strategy
with the Anaconda team to make sure they're OK with it too.

Paul
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Thu Jan 29 15:43:01 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 23:43:01 +0800
Subject: fresh leader
In-Reply-To: <4980E042.9060806@christensenplace.us>
References: <20090128202943.GF5150@calliope.phig.org>
	<4980E042.9060806@christensenplace.us>
Message-ID: <1233243781.4853.38.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 17:46 -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> Thank you, Karsten, for thinking I have what it takes to lead this most
> excellent group.  Now I guess we'll see if I actually do!
> 
> I know I'll be asking not only Karsten and Paul for assistance but also
> every member of this project.  We have some work ahead of us that needs
> our attention:
> 
> * Release notes[1]
> * New CMS to bring up and provide training/documentation for the rest of
> Fedora
> * The many guides that are in progress
> * The wiki gardening
> * Various projects on the task table[2]
> 
> Of the above projects I'm asking Ryan Lerch (ryanlerch) and John
> McDonough (jjmcd) to head up the Release Notes and Ian Weller
> (ianweller) to continue his leadership of the wiki.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's hard work.
> 
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats
> [2]
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Task_table
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric Christensen
> Fedora Docs Project
 ^ Leader, 

My sincerest condolences, Eric.  ;)

I've been a leader for a few community projects before, and being
chosen, elected, or appointed for such a task is nothing to be
congratulated for.  It's not a privilege bestowed upon you, but rather,
a trust placed in your care.

However, I extend to you the hand of support where & whenever I can, and
I hope that the others involved in the Docs project & Fedora at large do
the same.  I am confident in the decision of Karsten and the others that
selected you and that they did the right thing, and with the previous
leader now at your service aside the rest of us, the transition should
be quite painless.

Best wishes to a prosperous run as the leader of the Fedora
Documentation Project!
 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From simon at zikula.org  Thu Jan 29 15:52:28 2009
From: simon at zikula.org (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:52:28 -0000
Subject: Introducing Myself
Message-ID: <026601c98229$96f83a10$c4e8ae30$@org>

All,

 

Having just requested access to the sysadmin and sysadmin-test groups on FAS
and on the advice of David Nalley I thought I should introduce myself.  I
have been working with the docs team over the last week on the possibility
of running the Zikula Application Framework as the CMS behind
docs.fedoraproject.org.  I am a member of the board of the Zikula Software
Foundation and the Zikula Steering Committee, and I have been acting as the
lead in discussions about how to best address the needs of the docs project
on their website, and the needs of the Fedora project at large.

 

My name is Simon Birtwistle, and I'm currently located in Cambridge in the
UK.  I am in the final year of studying for a degree in Computer Science at
Cambridge University, and providing all goes well I'll be graduating in
June.  I've used Fedora on and off for years and years, though despite
thinking about it I never got around to contributing.  Most of my time is
taken up with the Zikula project, where my work with the Steering Committee
involves project management and day to day organisation, but I'm hoping that
I can combine my work there with useful work on the Fedora websites where
it's helpful.

 

Skills wise, I am mainly a web developer, as you'd expect, with a good
knowledge of PHP and MySQL.  I also have experience with Java as well as C#
.NET and some other less well known languages from my degree course.  I have
also used Docbook in the past for Zikula project documentation, so I at
least have a vague idea where the docs project are coming from.

 

I'm hoping that I, and Zikula as a project, will be able to provide a big
boost to the docs project's publishing workflow.

 

 

 

Simon

 

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From teb at zikula.nl  Thu Jan 29 16:43:43 2009
From: teb at zikula.nl (Teb (Zikula NL))
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:43:43 +0100
Subject: Introduction Teb (Zikula / Documentation project)
Message-ID: <4981DCBF.8020905@zikula.nl>

Hi all,

I have just subscribed to both the fedora-infrastructure-list and the 
fedora-docs-list to keep you (and myself) updated about the 
documentation project.

My name is Arjen Tebbenhof, 32 years old and currently employed at 
AMB-IT / ChampionChip in the Netherlands as a (web) software engineer. 
In this function, I maintain a backend-portal for our clients, and I am 
responsible for planning and implementation in this specific field 
(using PHP and an Oracle DBMS). Before this, I owned a company 
specialized in delivering CMS solutions, but that never really got 
lucrative enough to make a living :) I have a Bachelors Degree in 
Econometrics and Operations Research, at the Erasmus University 
Rotterdam, The Netherlands.

I am the current maintainer of the packaging environment for the Zikula 
Application Framework for the last year or so. Besides that, I am the 
team leader of the Dutch Zikula Community for the last five years, and 
maintain all dutch translations for the project. I never really 
contributed any code to the project, but behaved more as a sidekick 
between developers and the users, mainly providing support. I have basic 
knowledge of *nix systems, but have better specialties in PHP OOP, 
Databases, CVS/SVN repositories and packaging.

For the Documentation Project, I will assist Simon and the rest of the 
newly involved list members with the new Fedora Docs portal. And 
therefore have applied to the sysadmin and sysadmin-test groups.

Arjen (aka Teb)



From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Jan 29 16:41:42 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:41:42 -0800
Subject: Introducing Myself
In-Reply-To: <026601c98229$96f83a10$c4e8ae30$@org>
References: <026601c98229$96f83a10$c4e8ae30$@org>
Message-ID: <4981DC46.9010002@gmail.com>

Simon Birtwistle wrote:
> 
> Having just requested access to the sysadmin and sysadmin-test groups on
> FAS and on the advice of David Nalley I thought I should introduce
> myself.  I have been working with the docs team over the last week on
> the possibility of running the Zikula Application Framework as the CMS
> behind docs.fedoraproject.org.  I am a member of the board of the Zikula
> Software Foundation and the Zikula Steering Committee, and I have been
> acting as the lead in discussions about how to best address the needs of
> the docs project on their website, and the needs of the Fedora project
> at large.
> 
Welcome Simon!

Since I've been working with docs as part of my Packaging Committee
duties, I'll sponsor you for infrastructure work.  I'm abadger1999 on
irc.freenode.net if you need any help.

As a team, we tend to talk a lot in #fedora-admin, keeping each other up
to date on happenings, socialising, etc.  We also have weekly meetings
in #fedora-meeting on Thursday at 20:00 UTC where we summarise the weeks
goings on and identify things we need to work on more.

> 
> I?m hoping that I, and Zikula as a project, will be able to provide a
> big boost to the docs project?s publishing workflow.
> 
It sounds like docs is ready to get a test instance up and running.  If
you can make the meeting today to give us an update (near the end we
have an open discussion session) that would be great.  If not, catch us
in #fedora-admin and we'll make sure you have what you need to get setup.

-Toshio

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From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Jan 29 17:37:36 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:37:36 -0800
Subject: Introduction Teb (Zikula / Documentation project)
In-Reply-To: <4981DCBF.8020905@zikula.nl>
References: <4981DCBF.8020905@zikula.nl>
Message-ID: <4981E960.5020209@gmail.com>

Teb (Zikula NL) wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
Hi Teb!

> I have just subscribed to both the fedora-infrastructure-list and the
> fedora-docs-list to keep you (and myself) updated about the
> documentation project.
> 
Excellent.

> I am the current maintainer of the packaging environment for the Zikula
> Application Framework for the last year or so. Besides that, I am the
> team leader of the Dutch Zikula Community for the last five years, and
> maintain all dutch translations for the project. I never really
> contributed any code to the project, but behaved more as a sidekick
> between developers and the users, mainly providing support. I have basic
> knowledge of *nix systems, but have better specialties in PHP OOP,
> Databases, CVS/SVN repositories and packaging.
> 
> For the Documentation Project, I will assist Simon and the rest of the
> newly involved list members with the new Fedora Docs portal. And
> therefore have applied to the sysadmin and sysadmin-test groups.
> 

I've sponsored you into both groups.  Welcome to the Infrastructure
team!  I'll give you the same spiel I gave to Simon earlier.

I'm abadger1999 on irc.freenode.net if you need any help.  Since I've
been working with docs in my Packaging Committee role, it seems natural
to work with you guys for the infrastructure/docs needs.

The infrastructure team tends to talk a lot in #fedora-admin, keeping
each other up to date on happenings, socialising, etc.  We also have
weekly meetings in #fedora-meeting on Thursday at 20:00 UTC where we
summarise the weeks goings on and identify things we need to work on
more.  Simon is going to be at this week's meeting so we can get a feel
for what Zikula needs, what we have to give, and how we want to run it
in production.  You're welcome to stop by too if the meeting time works
for you.  Otherwise, stop on by #fedora-admin anytime.  You're a part of
the team now so welcome aboard.

-Toshio

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From Nicholas.Giemsa at defence.gov.au  Thu Jan 29 21:52:55 2009
From: Nicholas.Giemsa at defence.gov.au (Giemsa, Nicholas PTE)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 07:52:55 +1000
Subject: Email address [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Message-ID: <15F31DCE7B612849A820906B6180767540F36F@lavrxm02.drn.mil.au>

UNCLASSIFIED

nicholas.giemsa at defence.gov.au
 

Nick Giemsa 

 

IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence
Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the
Crimes Act 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are
requested to contact the sender and delete the email.


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From ryanlerch at gmail.com  Thu Jan 29 22:28:39 2009
From: ryanlerch at gmail.com (ryan lerch)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:28:39 +1000
Subject: Preparing for F11 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <20090129153506.GD11073@localhost.localdomain>
References: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>
	<20090129125625.GB27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<3DD69E0C5F7B40F98BEA8481AC61716B@Aidan>
	<20090129132006.GD27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<4981C6A7.7030001@fedoraproject.org>
	<20090129153506.GD11073@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <671a617b0901291428m4896d22bv47a729a5f0608422@mail.gmail.com>

I think we really need to define what the scope of the Release Notes
is going to be. Will it be just new features, known issues and
important bugfixes?

or

will it be all that + a mini installation guide? take the "Live" [1]
section as an example. Live images are nothing new in f10.


also after going though the release notes over the last couple of
days, i feel that they could also do with an overhaul on how the
information is structured and consequently presented... A solid
structure of the release notes would also make it significantly easier
to maintain the wiki <---> docbook relationship.

cheers,
ryanlerch

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Live

>
> Actually, that is a good point.  We would want to keep a few factoids
> there like minimum memory and so forth, because the Release Notes are
> probably an order of magnitude more consulted than the IG.  Those
> factoids also happen to be the most likely to change over time, so
> this sounds sensible to me.
>
> Whoever handles the Installer beat should probably check this strategy
> with the Anaconda team to make sure they're OK with it too.
>
> Paul

>



From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Jan 29 23:57:07 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:57:07 -0800
Subject: CMS discussions yet again
In-Reply-To: <1233149901.7082.36.camel@frankenbox>
References: 
	<20090128013513.GB4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<497FB9BA.5050306@redhat.com> <1233149901.7082.36.camel@frankenbox>
Message-ID: <20090129235707.GA3327@calliope.phig.org>

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 01:38:21PM +0000, Jared Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 11:49 +1000, Christopher Curran wrote:
> 
> > You keep talking about content coming from places as if it actually is 
> > coming in. Last I looked there were two(2) documents actually being 
> > produced: the security guide and the release notes. Perhaps two is many 
> > in your world but most people's definition of many is more than that.
> 
> There are a number of documents coming in.  I alone have worked on the
> release notes, the installation guide, the software management guide,
> and the user guide in the past few months, along with many of informal
> docs on the wiki.
> 
> It may not compare to the number of docs you juggle in your ,
> but that doesn't mean we're not working, as your post implies.

I'm actually surprised at Christopher's assessment of the situation.
Is it disingenuous?  He works in Red Hat's Content Services group, I
assumed he was aware of the ongoing work from that group to fully open
content that has been only on redhat.com to date.

https://fedorahosted.org/securityguide/
https://fedorahosted.org/selinuxguide/
https://fedorahosted.org/deploymentguide/

We also have these active guides or longer documents:

https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/
https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/
https://fedorahosted.org/translation-quick-start-guide/
https://fedorahosted.org/userguide/

These shorter documents make up part of the 'fedora-release-notes'
package:

https://fedorahosted.org/about-fedora/
https://fedorahosted.org/readme/
https://fedorahosted.org/readme-burning-isos/
https://fedorahosted.org/readme-live-image/

I haven't added up the number of pages, but it's more than nothing.
Consider that all but the first items from Red Hat were developed
entirely in the community.

When Red Hat Linux split and became RHEL and Fedora, all of the code
went in to Fedora for developement.  Zero content from Red Hat's
documentation store went in to Fedora.  Everything has been developed
from scratch.  This was all done by teams of people who are all
inactive; only Paul W. Frields and I remain active in Docs of the
people who started here before ... Fedora 8?  (Sorry if I exclude
anyone there, I'm not thinking about this clearly, but you get the
idea.)

Christopher, I ask you to take a serious reassessment of the situation
if you intend to continue commenting on it.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From noriko at redhat.com  Fri Jan 30 00:40:38 2009
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:40:38 +1000
Subject: Fedora 11 Schedules
In-Reply-To: <49810116.9060509@redhat.com>
References: <497F9C23.70809@redhat.com> <497FF157.8060000@redhat.com>
	<49810116.9060509@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49824C86.9080404@redhat.com>



John Poelstra ????????:
> Noriko Mizumoto said the following on 01/27/2009 09:47 PM Pacific Time:
>> John Poelstra ????????:
>>> I have complete a draft of the translation schedule for Fedora 11.  
>>> It is based on the documentation schedule (which to date I have not 
>>> received any feedback).
>>>
>>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-trans-tasks.html
>>>
>>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html
>>>
>>> A new report I am still ironing out (huge credit goes to Ben Kahn for 
>>> creating it for me) is a combined view of the Docs and Translations 
>>> schedule with different color codings for each team.
>>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-and-trans-tasks.html 
>>>
> 
> -cut-
> 
>>> -- 
>> Wow! I am so impressed with this great work!!
>> Thank you so much.
> 
> You are welcome!  Your detailed review was exactly what I was hoping 
> for.  After spending so much time looking at all the different views of 
> the schedule it is easy to miss things.
> 
>> Just a couple of points noticed below.
>> The task numbers are based on "Fedora 11 Translation Tasks".
>>
>> [Docs/Trans]
>> - #11 Translate Draft POT for Guides => typo of Translate Draft POs 
>> for Guides
> done
> 
>> - #17 Trans Deadline: rel-notes => pls change to Trans Deadline: **GA 
>> rel-notes
> done
> 
>> - #n/a there is no task item for IG which can be found at Docs Team 
>> Tasks #37?
> 
> IG (install guide) is included now as part of "All Guides".  For Fedora 11
> the docs team (Karsten @ FUDCon) told me they are planning on releasing 
> the Install Guide and
> Security Guide.  There could be others too so they preferred to just 
> call it generically "All Guides".
> 
>> [Releng/Trans]
>> - #3 Software String Freeze & #8 Rebuild all translated packages => 
>> those items can not be found in Releng Team Tasks. Those need to be 
>> included in Releng Team Tasks to let maintainers be aware important 
>> dates for their packages.
> done
> 
> You raise a good point here.  What we probably need is a schedule view 
> just for package maintainers and developers.  I will create this by next 
> Monday or sooner if I have time.  Look for it in the navigation bar at 
> the top of any of the reports.
> 
>> [Web/Trans]
>> - #19 Translate Final Release Banners => this item can not be found in 
>> Web Team Tasks. Web Team is responsible to pass the file to be 
>> translated.
>> - #n/a Trans Deadline: Final Release Banners => which should be 
>> 22-May, please add in Translation Tasks
>> - #20 Review and correct fedoraproject.org translations => what kind 
>> of action is expected by whom?
> 
> Excellent catches!  I confess to having a very basic understanding of 
> the whole l10n process particularly as it relates to artwork and 
> banners... is it correct to assume it follows the same POT->PO process? 
>  Following that assumption I added more tasks for the web team.  Please 
> tell me if I've got it right or correct me :)

Woohoo, it seems [Docs/Trans] and [Releng/Trans] cleared thanks!

During F10 for [Web/Trans], we have worked for fedoraporject.org 
translation only (aka Fedora's main website) [1]. This is POT->PO 
process and listed as #16 and #21.

I have to say, sorry I have no idea about 'Release Banners', but it has 
been included in F11 Translation Tasks thus assuming it would be new 
request item from Web team.

[1]:http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/fedora-web

noriko


> 
> Re: "Review and correct fedoraproject.org translations"... I have no 
> idea.  This was a carry-over from Fedora 10.  Can anyone else tell us 
> what this task should be?
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> 



From kanarip at kanarip.com  Fri Jan 30 06:43:18 2009
From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 07:43:18 +0100
Subject: Introduction Teb (Zikula / Documentation project)
In-Reply-To: <4981DCBF.8020905@zikula.nl>
References: <4981DCBF.8020905@zikula.nl>
Message-ID: <4982A186.6050205@kanarip.com>

Teb (Zikula NL) wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I have just subscribed to both the fedora-infrastructure-list and the 
> fedora-docs-list to keep you (and myself) updated about the 
> documentation project.
> 

Hello Arjen,

good to hear we have another Dutchman on board ;-) Welkom!

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-the Other Dutchman



From murray.mcallister at gmail.com  Fri Jan 30 10:29:58 2009
From: murray.mcallister at gmail.com (Murray McAllister)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:29:58 +1000
Subject: CMS discussions yet again
In-Reply-To: <20090129235707.GA3327@calliope.phig.org>
References: 
	<20090128013513.GB4822@calliope.phig.org>
	<497FB9BA.5050306@redhat.com> <1233149901.7082.36.camel@frankenbox>
	<20090129235707.GA3327@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <95f1114b0901300229w4f28fdb0wd48439348bd71dff@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm actually surprised at Christopher's assessment of the situation.
> Is it disingenuous?  He works in Red Hat's Content Services group, I
> assumed he was aware of the ongoing work from that group to fully open
> content that has been only on redhat.com to date.
>
> https://fedorahosted.org/securityguide/
> https://fedorahosted.org/selinuxguide/
> https://fedorahosted.org/deploymentguide/
[snip]
> I haven't added up the number of pages, but it's more than nothing.
> Consider that all but the first items from Red Hat were developed
> entirely in the community.

Sorry to complain :-) "https://fedorahosted.org/selinuxguide/" was
developed entirely in the community. See the archives:



The SELinux User Guide is not on
.

I might have missed what you were saying, and the community reference
above may be referring to fedora documentation or fedora specific
mailing lists only. Also, "selinuxguide" may have been referring to
Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4?

Cheers.



From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Jan 30 14:11:46 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:11:46 -0500
Subject: Fedora 11 Schedules
In-Reply-To: <49824C86.9080404@redhat.com>
References: <497F9C23.70809@redhat.com> <497FF157.8060000@redhat.com>
	<49810116.9060509@redhat.com> <49824C86.9080404@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090130141146.GW28663@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:40:38AM +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
> John Poelstra ????????:
>> Excellent catches!  I confess to having a very basic understanding of  
>> the whole l10n process particularly as it relates to artwork and  
>> banners... is it correct to assume it follows the same POT->PO process?  
>>  Following that assumption I added more tasks for the web team.  Please  
>> tell me if I've got it right or correct me :)
>
> Woohoo, it seems [Docs/Trans] and [Releng/Trans] cleared thanks!
>
> During F10 for [Web/Trans], we have worked for fedoraporject.org  
> translation only (aka Fedora's main website) [1]. This is POT->PO process 
> and listed as #16 and #21.
>
> I have to say, sorry I have no idea about 'Release Banners', but it has  
> been included in F11 Translation Tasks thus assuming it would be new  
> request item from Web team.
>
> [1]:http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/fedora-web

Hi Noriko,

I think that the "release banners" probably refers to the small button
on the left side of the main fedoraproject.org web site, which say
"Fedora 11 Now Available" (or something to that effect).  Typically
translators will localize that text, using the fedora-web module.

John, please correct me if I'm wrong about that one!

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Jan 30 14:23:36 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:23:36 -0500
Subject: Preparing for F11 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <671a617b0901291428m4896d22bv47a729a5f0608422@mail.gmail.com>
References: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>
	<20090129125625.GB27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<3DD69E0C5F7B40F98BEA8481AC61716B@Aidan>
	<20090129132006.GD27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<4981C6A7.7030001@fedoraproject.org>
	<20090129153506.GD11073@localhost.localdomain>
	<671a617b0901291428m4896d22bv47a729a5f0608422@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090130142336.GX28663@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 08:28:39AM +1000, ryan lerch wrote:
> I think we really need to define what the scope of the Release Notes
> is going to be. Will it be just new features, known issues and
> important bugfixes?
> 
> or
> 
> will it be all that + a mini installation guide? take the "Live" [1]
> section as an example. Live images are nothing new in f10.

Excellent point.  The combined audience for the Release Notes has
several objectives:

* evaluating whether to try this release
  * feature high points
  * are there deleterious or advantageous changes?
  * (?) what's different from [Distro_X]?
* first-timer trying to understand Fedora offerings
* [Others?]

IMHO, we want to duplicate content only judiciously, but reuse it
effectively.  The Release Notes and the Installation Guide are
definitely trying to achieve different things, but we also want to
make sure people finish looking at the Release Notes by saying, "Wow,
that sure was informative.  I feel ready to decide what to do now, and
I know what my next action needs to be."

> also after going though the release notes over the last couple of
> days, i feel that they could also do with an overhaul on how the
> information is structured and consequently presented... A solid
> structure of the release notes would also make it significantly easier
> to maintain the wiki <---> docbook relationship.

No argument here!  When we said we wanted fresh leadership on these
docs, it wasn't lip service.  I for one may pop up to discuss things
as a fellow Docs contributor, but that's what mailing lists and a
community process are for.  I see any overhaul as natural, and
something to be expected and welcomed.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Fri Jan 30 16:15:34 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 00:15:34 +0800
Subject: Preparing for F11 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <671a617b0901291428m4896d22bv47a729a5f0608422@mail.gmail.com>
References: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>
	<20090129125625.GB27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<3DD69E0C5F7B40F98BEA8481AC61716B@Aidan>
	<20090129132006.GD27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<4981C6A7.7030001@fedoraproject.org>
	<20090129153506.GD11073@localhost.localdomain>
	<671a617b0901291428m4896d22bv47a729a5f0608422@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1233332134.4853.169.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 08:28 +1000, ryan lerch wrote:
> I think we really need to define what the scope of the Release Notes
> is going to be. Will it be just new features, known issues and
> important bugfixes?
> 
> or
> 
> will it be all that + a mini installation guide? take the "Live" [1]
> section as an example. Live images are nothing new in f10.
> 
> 
> also after going though the release notes over the last couple of
> days, i feel that they could also do with an overhaul on how the
> information is structured and consequently presented... A solid
> structure of the release notes would also make it significantly easier
> to maintain the wiki <---> docbook relationship.

I know that I have always read the release notes for Fedora ever since I
started using it regularly (FC5 I believe), but I have also been
following the release notes for Gnome and also KDE 4 when it came out.
And I have to say, maybe it's just me, but I was far more "wowed" and
"awed" by the Gnome & KDE release notes than the Fedora ones.  I still
got what I wanted from the Fedora ones, but the Gnome & KDE ones really
gave me that desire to try them out.

Maybe we can take some lessons from them?  Also, I think they tend to be
more of "release announcements" rather than "release notes", if such a
distinction can be made.  They tend not to include much information such
as known issues, unless buried deeper or linked away, which is something
I think we can go for or benefit from as well.
 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Fri Jan 30 16:25:00 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:25:00 -0500
Subject: Preparing for F11 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <1233332134.4853.169.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>
	<20090129125625.GB27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<3DD69E0C5F7B40F98BEA8481AC61716B@Aidan>
	<20090129132006.GD27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<4981C6A7.7030001@fedoraproject.org>
	<20090129153506.GD11073@localhost.localdomain>
	<671a617b0901291428m4896d22bv47a729a5f0608422@mail.gmail.com>
	<1233332134.4853.169.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1233332700.4369.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2009-01-31 at 00:15 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> And I have to say, maybe it's just me, but I was far more "wowed" and
> "awed" by the Gnome & KDE release notes than the Fedora ones.  I still
> got what I wanted from the Fedora ones, but the Gnome & KDE ones really
> gave me that desire to try them out.

So in addition to the facts we should throw in some sparkly objects that
make people NEED to come try it out.  The world might end unless you try
out our new features!

I agree.  I've never read the GNOME or KDE release notes but I will now.
If we are missing something that could entice people to come on over
then we are missing out.

-Eric
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From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org  Fri Jan 30 17:12:12 2009
From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 01:12:12 +0800
Subject: Preparing for F11 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <1233332700.4369.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <60EE4C102D714A938A5642E06D32612D@Aidan>
	<20090129125625.GB27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<3DD69E0C5F7B40F98BEA8481AC61716B@Aidan>
	<20090129132006.GD27203@localhost.localdomain>
	<4981C6A7.7030001@fedoraproject.org>
	<20090129153506.GD11073@localhost.localdomain>
	<671a617b0901291428m4896d22bv47a729a5f0608422@mail.gmail.com>
	<1233332134.4853.169.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1233332700.4369.5.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1233335532.4853.174.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 11:25 -0500, Eric Christensen wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-01-31 at 00:15 +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> > And I have to say, maybe it's just me, but I was far more "wowed" and
> > "awed" by the Gnome & KDE release notes than the Fedora ones.  I still
> > got what I wanted from the Fedora ones, but the Gnome & KDE ones really
> > gave me that desire to try them out.
> 
> So in addition to the facts we should throw in some sparkly objects that
> make people NEED to come try it out.  The world might end unless you try
> out our new features!
> 
> I agree.  I've never read the GNOME or KDE release notes but I will now.
> If we are missing something that could entice people to come on over
> then we are missing out.

I guess the main difference I recall are:
      * Mentioning of what makes $thisrelease better than $thisrelease--
      * A reasonably flat layout in one document.  No more than 2 levels
        of hierarchy (easy to digest)
      * Anything that needs more details is linked elsewhere
      * The document itself looks pretty.  If there is a compelling new
        style, then that theme is used (e.g., KDE).  If the website has
        a nice interface, than that style is used (Gnome).  I fear,
        currently, Fedora Project is lacking on both fronts, at least on
        the web side.
 
________________________________________________________________________

Basil Mohamed Gohar
abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org
www.basilgohar.com
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From stickster at gmail.com  Fri Jan 30 23:21:50 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 18:21:50 -0500
Subject: [FW: Re: Reminder: Do not use trademarks in Summary or Description]
Message-ID: <20090130232150.GS28663@localhost.localdomain>

This comes from a recent thread in fedora-devel-list:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-January/msg02376.html

I added appropriate guidance to the Style Guide here:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/StyleGuide/QuickReference

Paul

----- Forwarded message from Tom spot Callaway  -----

On 2009-01-30 at 14:57:51 -0500, "Paul W. Frields" 
wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 02:52:25PM -0500, Tom spot Callaway wrote:
>> On 2009-01-30 at 14:46:36 -0500, "Paul W. Frields" 
>> wrote:
>>> Would you say we should treat trademarked terms similarly in Fedora
>>> documentation?  If so, I'll note that in the Style Guide for future
>>> reference.
>> I'll ask RH Legal. The advice given was strictly in reference to package
>> Summary and Descriptions.
> 
> Fantastic, thanks Spot... we can move any follow up to
> fedora-legal-list if you like.

No need, it can't hurt.

They advised that the same advice applies to Documentation.

Never use "tm" or "(R)". If we are obliged by contract to mention other
trademarks in a legend, add the legend as required by the contract.

In addition, our documentation should contain the disclaimer:  "All
other trademarks are the property of their respective owners."

~spot

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From eric at christensenplace.us  Sat Jan 31 00:04:41 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:04:41 -0500
Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2009-01-28 Summary
Message-ID: <49839599.2010308@christensenplace.us>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Attendees:
- -----------
sparks
stickster
quaid
jjmcd
ke4qqq
laubersm
jsmith

Summary:
- ---------

* Leadership refresh
Quaid said he wanted to appoint Sparks to be Docs Lead for the rest of
F11.  An election will be held after F11.  Also, during those elections
we can decide how long a leader will serve, etc.  The nomination passed.

Also, Ryanlerch and jjmcd will handle F11 release notes with jjmcd
taking it for F12.

* CMS Plan
We discussed the CMS options and voted to approve Zikula.  This stemmed
from a conversation that occurred immediately before the meeting where
all the concerns were worked out.  Simon, from Zikula, immediately began
work.

* Release Notes
Discussion on what needed to be done on the Release Notes was discussed.
 An update will be given next week.

* Docs Project Page Changes
Noted that ianweller is working with G_work to get the wikibot turned
loose on the wiki.

* John Poelstra's Schedule
ke4qqq was present on a conference call to discuss scheduling the
release notes.  releng will handle the alpha announcement and then Docs
will take Beta and the GA release.

* Task Table
Quaid went through the table and updated projects with input from the
group.  Various tasks were updated.

Meeting ended at 2000 UTC.
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From poelstra at redhat.com  Fri Jan 30 20:33:00 2009
From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:33:00 -0800
Subject: Fedora 11 Schedules
In-Reply-To: <20090130141146.GW28663@localhost.localdomain>
References: <497F9C23.70809@redhat.com>
	<497FF157.8060000@redhat.com>	<49810116.9060509@redhat.com>
	<49824C86.9080404@redhat.com>
	<20090130141146.GW28663@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <498363FC.8030500@redhat.com>

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:40:38AM +1000, Noriko Mizumoto wrote:
>> John Poelstra ????????:
>>> Excellent catches!  I confess to having a very basic understanding of  
>>> the whole l10n process particularly as it relates to artwork and  
>>> banners... is it correct to assume it follows the same POT->PO process?  
>>>  Following that assumption I added more tasks for the web team.  Please  
>>> tell me if I've got it right or correct me :)
>> Woohoo, it seems [Docs/Trans] and [Releng/Trans] cleared thanks!
>>
>> During F10 for [Web/Trans], we have worked for fedoraporject.org  
>> translation only (aka Fedora's main website) [1]. This is POT->PO process 
>> and listed as #16 and #21.
>>
>> I have to say, sorry I have no idea about 'Release Banners', but it has  
>> been included in F11 Translation Tasks thus assuming it would be new  
>> request item from Web team.
>>
>> [1]:http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/fedora-web
> 
> Hi Noriko,
> 
> I think that the "release banners" probably refers to the small button
> on the left side of the main fedoraproject.org web site, which say
> "Fedora 11 Now Available" (or something to that effect).  Typically
> translators will localize that text, using the fedora-web module.
> 
> John, please correct me if I'm wrong about that one!
> 
> 

Looking at some other notes I have from mizmo, the part of the banner 
that needs to be translated is the tag line which for Fedora 10 was 
"Fire it up".

John




From kwade at redhat.com  Sat Jan 31 17:32:44 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:32:44 -0800
Subject: Advancing the beats
Message-ID: <20090131173243.GO3327@calliope.phig.org>

It was cool to see the naming scheme Sparks chose for the beats:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Boot_Beats

In my mind, the beats were always potentially more than just release
notes.  The Fedora Weekly News actually uses the beats concept more
successfully -- the natural flow from writer to the audience in a
single publication makes sense.

By contrast, the release notes have always suffered from content that
might have been better in other locations ... that didn't exist.  This
undermined the organizing of the content.  For Fedora 10, we devised a
new scheme -- major chapters that pulled the beats in various nestings
using the power of modular XML files converted 1:1 from the wiki
pages.

Now that we have a larger documentation base and greater need for
updated content, I wonder if now is a good time for the beats to take
on a larger purpose?  Providing the stream of content that feeds in to
all the myriad documentation.  Does that pervert the usefulness of the
beats to the release notes?  Or rather provide a way to clean them up
a bit?

For example, there is often content in the release notes that could be
in the Installation Guide[1].  We maintained a long piece originally
by Tommy Reynolds about building custom kernel packages, which finally
migrated to the wiki and remains with a reference.[2] And so on.

There seems to be a use for filtered and unfiltered feeds of content
that the Docs Project can use to populate parts of various documents,
instead of just jamming it all in to the release notes. ;-) The
mailing list 'fedora-relnotes-content'[3] that receives release notes
reports has always provided information useful to other documents.

Lest you think I'm crazy suggesting a process change this late in the
F11 release cycle, I don't think it has to be that much of a
difference.  More of an awareness to share with beat writers -- gather
content that might have meaning beyond just release notes, and Docs
will parse it to the right content home.

- Karsten

[1] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f10/en_US/What_is_New_for_Installation_and_Live_Images.html#sn-Installation_related_issues

[2] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f10/en_US/How_are_Things_for_Developers.html#sn-Preparing_for_kernel_development

[3] https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-relnotes-content

Receives relnotes at fedoraproject.org, release notes bugzilla
reports/fedora_requires_release_notes flags, used to watch the
Docs/Beats.* changes in the MoinMoin wiki, good place to send a feed
of all changes to the beat pages.
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Sat Jan 31 18:29:34 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 13:29:34 -0500
Subject: Advancing the beats
References: <20090131173243.GO3327@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karsten Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 12:32 PM
Subject: Advancing the beats

> In my mind, the beats were always potentially more
> than just release notes.

I've actually been thinking along similar lines.  Perhaps my view is a 
little less dramatic, perhaps more so.

I see the release notes as serving two purposes.  The first, of course, is 
to warn users of changes that might affect them.  The second is, in a way, 
to "sell" Fedora.  For many readers, the release notes are the only bit of 
documentation they actually read.  To that end, each beat, IMO, needs to 
start off with a short sales pitch.  Following that, of course, are the gory 
details of the changes.

But that doesn't give a user, IMO, a complete picture of all that Fedora has 
to offer.  The one-liner serves only to pique the reader's interest.  It 
needs to be linked to content, likely on the wiki, that describes the full 
glory of what Fedora has to offer in that particular area.

But wait, there's more.  There are many packages that aren't really all that 
obvious to get working.  The full description of the capability page 
probably needs to link to HowTo documents for many of those applications. 
This way the user wanting to do something a little less obvious isn't faced 
with the black hole of Google.  Let's face it, one of the problems with 
Linux is that there is so much documentation out there, and most of it was 
written for gurus.  Finding something that an ordinary mortal can understand 
can be maddeningly difficult.  A direct chain from the release notes to a 
human-readable How-To could be a huge help.

To this end, I have started to do something like that with the Embedded and 
Amateur Radio beats.  Only just a start so far, and even that is proving to 
be more challenging than I expected.  I picked these because they appeared 
to be nice, little, well-defined areas.  But so far, I haven't even got the 
total package list for Amateur Radio.  Every time I think I'm done I trip 
across another hidden cache of packages buried in Fedora's 11K+ packages. 
And this area has a SIG that has identified a good portion of the packages.

Paul put together a nice summary for the F10 RN's, and as soon as I get to 
the end of a list, I intend to build a more detailed summary for the wiki. 
As a prototype for a How To,  have put together
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/How_to_use_splat
which describes one of those applications that probably has some widespread 
interest (among the amateur radio community) but isn't immediately obvious 
how to use.  I've asked on the fedora-hams list and also on some outside 
lists for comments/suggestions, but so far no input.

The
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Applications_for_Amateur_Radio
is at this point not much more than a list, needing to be finished up before 
arranging into something a little more readable.

There is something else we need to address, though.  Much of the 
documentation we have is very uneven, and this applies not only to the RN, 
but also the UG and especially the IG.  We have some content that is very 
step by step and leads the user by the hand.  Other content is only 
understandable to the true wizard.  Somehow we need to sort out how to 
segregate, or at least flag that content, so the expert doesn't have to wade 
through all that inane babble, while the new user (or potential user) isn't 
frightened off by the scary stuff.

Lots to do ... lots to do.

--McD








From eric at christensenplace.us  Sat Jan 31 20:51:20 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 15:51:20 -0500
Subject: Docs Project contributor group in FAS
Message-ID: <4984B9C8.8090207@christensenplace.us>

If you are a member of the Docs Project please make sure you are in the
Docs Project contributor group in FAS.  If you have any problems with
this please contact me.

Thanks,
Eric Christensen
Fedora Docs Project

Fedora Talk: 5102043                  Phone: 919-424-0063 x 5102043
E-Mail/SIP Address: sparks at fedoraproject.org
IRC: Sparks on freenode.net

GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1



From laubersm at fedoraproject.org  Sat Jan 31 22:01:54 2009
From: laubersm at fedoraproject.org (Susan Lauber)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 17:01:54 -0500
Subject: PackageMaintainers wiki cleanup update
Message-ID: 

Greetings to the authors/maintainers of Package Maintainer wiki pages,

I  introduced myself last week [1] and since then I have dug into the pages
and set up a task table [2]

I have already added a category to most pages so they can all be found
together [3].
If there are others or if you create a new page just add the string
[[Category:Package Maintainers]] to the bottom of the page.

The next step is renaming so that pages are easier to find in a search.  It
will also make the category page easier to use. I have started making
suggested in the packagemaintainers.psv [4] file in the wikirename.git repo
and

***I encourage others to check the proposed names and offer additional
suggestions.***

I would like to have this file ready for the wikibot by the end of the week
(Feb 7).
Lack of response will be seen as a vote of confidence :)

Thanks,
Susan

[1]
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-January/msg01545.html
[2]
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_tasks_for_Packaging_Guide_and_related_materials#Package_Maintainer_pages
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Package_Maintainers
[4]
http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=wikirename.git;a=blob_plain;f=packagemaintainers.psv;hb=HEAD

with naming instructions at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_structure

-- 
Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS)
Lauber System Solutions, Inc.
http://www.laubersolutions.com
gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE  4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974
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