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FDSCo Meeting 2009-01-14 IRC log

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14:01 < quaid> <meeting id="Docs team">
14:01  * quaid still hoping for zodbot meeting logging :)
14:02 < Sparks> +1
14:02 < quaid> le roll call?
14:02  * Sparks is present
14:02 -!- John5342 [n=john5342 fedora/John5342] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:03 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :

FUDCon results
14:03 < quaid> I'm here too
14:03  * quaid makes a sound of crickets chirping
14:04 < quaid> ok then
14:04 < Sparks> Where is everyone?
14:04 < quaid> refering to
14:05 < quaid> dunno
14:05 -!- fozzmoo [n=fozz 209 41 95 5] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:06  * laubersm here
14:06 < quaid> since I just did the 'hit their nick thing' we can wait a
14:06  * quaid forgets how useful that is
14:06 -!- jsmith
[n=njsmith asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith] has joined
14:06 < quaid> I regularly get saved in to a meeting because some kind
soul hit my nick to remind me it was time :)
14:06  * ke4qqq is here
14:06  * jsmith stumbles in, but is on two phone calls at the moment,
and won't be much use in the meeting
14:06 < Sparks> jsmith: That's a neat trick
14:07 -!- sdziallas_ [n=sebastia p57A2D2F2 dip t-dialin net] has joined
14:07 < fozzmoo> heh heh. The Asterisk guy is on 2 phone calls. har har.
14:07 < quaid> heh
14:07 < quaid> he needs an Asterisk Turing plugin
14:07 < jsmith> fozzmoo: It would be funnier if it weren't true :-(
14:07 < quaid> refering to
14:08 < quaid> from a hackfest point of view, results were mixed
14:08  * dbewley partially here
14:08 < quaid> * we didn't get the beats renamed
14:08 < quaid> * I should have known Paul wouldn't be available since he
was /running the conference/ and I didn't do too much on process by myself
14:08 < quaid> * we still need pages renamed, but could have tho' didn't
categorize the pages
14:09 < quaid> * jsmith was looking a bit on moving the needle on the IG
conversion/how to convert to Publican stuff
14:09 < quaid> * we taught about the wiki
14:09 < quaid> * docbook was taught, yay
14:09 -!- warren [n=warren redhat/wombat/warren] has quit ["Leaving"]
14:09 < quaid> * probably a dozen people were positively influenced
about the wiki, but we wanted the whole room to bow to our methods
14:10 < quaid> that's all I had
14:10 < ke4qqq> do we have owners for the various groups of pages?
14:10 < jsmith> quaid: FWIW, stickster and I took a stab at the Publican
stuff, but ran into problems with stickster's XSL transform
14:11 < stickster> jsmith: I think I knocked most of those out
14:11 < stickster> The newest tarball should hopefully work better
14:11 < laubersm> I got nudged into taking lead on Packaging docs
14:11 < jsmith> stickster: Cool... I'll give it a shot when I get a free
14:11 < stickster>
14:12 < quaid> ke4qqq: we have owners or people working on all BUT the
release notes
14:12 < quaid> laubersm++
14:12 < ke4qqq> wow laubersm!!!!
14:13 -!- jsmith is now known as jsmith-busy
14:13 < quaid> yeah, I think the Packaging Guide is a great fit --
laubersm has the skills to learn it on the job :), and it's probably the
most impactful
               thing we can be working on, in terms of making Fedorans'
lives better.
14:13 < jsmith-busy> Amen!
14:13 < laubersm> I don't think the renaming and adding catagories will
be hard... then we;ll go from there
14:13  * quaid expects others will pitch in esp. as they see momentum
14:14 < quaid> laubersm: go ahead and talk too much about it on
fedora-docs-list; ask lots of questions on fedora-wiki lists fp org; etc.
14:14 < laubersm> will do
14:15 < ke4qqq> yeah I finished all of the Ambassador renaming during
fudcon - I'd guess maybe an hour per 100 pages if you know the content.
14:15 < Sparks> +1
14:16 < quaid> ke4qqq: sweet, yeah, I saw the PSV file
14:16 < quaid> g / G_work is probably still asleep ...
14:17 < quaid> we maybe need to enable ianweller to use wikibot more or
14:17 < quaid> I'd like to see us push those naming changes through asap.
14:17 -!- fab [n=bellet bellet info] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:18 < Sparks> quaid: How long does it take wikibot to do all the work?
14:18 < quaid> dunno, it should be pretty fast
14:18 < quaid> it's making changes in the database perhaps?
14:18 < quaid> yeah, I think so; it's not scraping and inputing via the
usual web interface.
14:18 < Sparks> heck, give him the keys and let him go nuts
14:19 < quaid> +1
14:19 < quaid> so, we'll update the main task list from the fudcon
did/didn't list when we get there
14:19 < Sparks> Can we create a new position?  Like Wiki Czar?
14:19 < ke4qqq> Sparks: isn't that ian?
14:19 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_tasks_during_FUDConF11 ::
CMS planz
14:19 < Sparks> ke4qqq: My point exactly.  :)
14:19 < quaid> Sparks: basically, yes, I think we did that a while ago
14:20 < Sparks> quaid: Cool
14:20 < quaid> a few months, not sure if it was Czar, but I like that
14:20 < quaid> hope it wouldn't get any any czarists angry :)
14:20 < quaid> so, did everyone read my email on CMS to f-docs-l?
14:20 -!- MrTom [n=mrtom fedora/MrTom] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:21 < Sparks> I did.
14:21 < laubersm> I did
14:21  * jsmith-busy read it, threw his hands in the air, and did
nothing else
14:21 < ke4qqq> yes, and I am curious as to what response you have had.
14:21 < quaid> laubersm: cheat, you proofread it for me before I sent it!
14:21  * laubersm laughs
14:21 < quaid> ke4qqq: I haven't looked outside of the list yet, but
p'raps it's time to send to the other lists
14:21 -!- sdziallas [n=sebastia p57A2E232 dip t-dialin net] has quit
[Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:22  * ke4qqq thought you already sent it to -devel
14:22 < quaid> nothing from the wider community; Max and Greg thought it
was a good plan.
14:22 -!- sdziallas_ is now known as sdziallas
14:22 < quaid> ke4qqq: oops, not yet
14:22 < quaid> why stall?  not sure ...
14:22 < Sparks> quaid: Is there a wiki page for the CMS discussion?
14:22 < quaid> Sparks: yeah ...
14:22 < quaid>
14:22  * ke4qqq thinks we should send it to -devel and -art and maybe
even just the fedora list
14:23 < laubersm> quaid: send it out
14:23 < quaid> ke4qqq: +1 ... hadn't thought about art though
14:23 < quaid> definitely -list and -devel-list
14:25 -!- sdziallas [n=sebastia p57A2D2F2 dip t-dialin net] has quit
14:25 < Sparks> quaid: We should build profiles on each option that has
been proposed and show pros and cons.
14:25 -!- John5342 [n=john5342 fedora/John5342] has quit [Remote closed
the connection]
14:26 < quaid> Sparks: ah, see ...
14:26 < Sparks> quaid: Maybe we can narrow the list down based on
specific things we have to have or can't live with.
14:26 < Sparks> quaid: Plus the ability of someone to maintain it upstream.
14:26 -!- iarlyy [n=iarly mail libertynet com br] has left
#fedora-meeting []
14:26 < ke4qqq> the problem we identified at FUDcon is that virtually
all of the options meet most if not all of the needs.
14:26 < Sparks> ke4qqq: That's the kind of problem I like!
14:26 < quaid> right, and the process of going beyond marketing materials
14:26 < quaid> is a huge vetting operation.
14:27 < quaid> Sparks: except then nothing stands out as a clear winner
14:27 < Sparks> quaid: True
14:27 < ke4qqq> and really, we are looking for owners.
14:27 < quaid> we also have the problem that anything we bring to
Infrastructure is going to be new to them; they are already well taxed
with other
               complexity, etc.
14:27 -!- red_alert [n=ill fedora/redalert] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:27 < quaid> ke4qqq: +1
14:28 < Sparks> So we would need a buy in from them as well.
14:28 < Sparks> We don't want something that is going to add so much
work, etc.
14:28 < quaid> Sparks: that was the brainwave at FUDCon -- we aren't
looking for a CMS as much as owners for a CMS, who are preferably
passionate about it
14:28 < quaid> e.g. note Basil's response on list
14:28 < ke4qqq> Sparks: Mike & Co. seem pretty open to just about
anything within reason.
14:28 < jsmith-busy> quaid: I talked to mmcgrath about that, and he
didn't seem *that* concerned about bringing in a new CMS
14:29 < Sparks> Have we drawn a line in the sand to say "no more" than
the seven on the list now?
14:29 < quaid> jsmith-busy: I know, but then I talked with Toshio ...
14:29 < ke4qqq> jsmith-busy: but on Sunday he did point out that the
wiki migration was really successful because it had an owner (Ian)
14:30 < quaid> right, and the wiki is the reference model
14:30 < quaid> when we announced that we were going to move to a
specific wiki solution, the person passionate about it showed up.
14:30 < jsmith-busy> Sparks: No, it may be premature to draw that line
(as much as I hate to admit it)
14:30 -!- danielsmw
[n=danielsm 130-127-20-68 mauldin resnet clemson edu] has joined
14:30 < Sparks> jsmith-busy: Well, that's a problem in itself.
14:30 < quaid> and if we just said "Drupal" that would probably happen,
but then we had the thought ... why not just approach this through the
               passion/interest as a primary scope item.
14:30 < Sparks> jsmith-busy: As you already know
14:30  * danielsmw waves hello
14:31 < quaid> hey danielsmw
14:31  * jsmith-busy has to run
14:31 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr p4FDD172B dip0 t-ipconnect de] has joined
14:31 -!- jsmith-busy is now known as jsmith-away
14:31 < quaid> we are catching up on CMS; ref. email sent to f-docs-l
14:31 < danielsmw> k
14:32 < quaid>
for the IRC records :)
14:33 -!- harveybetty [n=harvey firewall eccnet com] has joined
14:33 < quaid> Sparks: one thing I appreciated about Basil's email was
that he narrowed it to "PHP-based" but was willing to consider outside
of his
               expertise; that leaves room for e.g. Joomla experts to
show up and he can join that team.
14:33 < quaid> hey harveybetty
14:33 < ke4qqq> right, but the MW decision was pushed based on the
technical need.
14:33 < quaid> we are catching up on CMS; ref. email sent to f-docs-l
14:33 < harveybetty> Hi there - I was in the wrong channel
14:33 < quaid> ke4qqq: right, and we have no clear cms winner as we did
for wiki
14:33 < quaid> plus that was some months of work on mmcgrath's part; he
vetted the solutions, ran scripts, etc.
14:33 < quaid> the part of this that we could do but haven't nor really
want to :)
14:34 < quaid> harveybetty: yeah, we got our meeting time secured; the
other group moved to a different day
14:34 < harveybetty> Is there a list of CMS's that are being considered?
14:35 < danielsmw> harveybetty: this was the original page on the topic
that lists some on the bottom:

14:35 < danielsmw> although i don't know what's been discussed here
14:35 < quaid> we are talkinga bout
14:36 < quaid> the idea of having a team self-identify as being willing
14:36 < quaid> to deploy and maintain
14:36 < quaid> and they choose their own solution
14:36 < danielsmw> ooh.
14:36 < quaid> i.e., email to fedora-list gets some Drupal people interested
14:36 < quaid> so it's Drupal, they run it, and we work with them.
14:37 < quaid> otherwise we are in a deep rabbit hole looking at 100+
solutions that nearly all fit our needs, without any technical
contributors to fix the
               gaps, and still nothing deployed with no one to deploy it :)
14:38 < harveybetty> Drupal is a nice solution.  There is an XML module
that fits nicely.  I have run into a problem when trying to install
faceted search
                     because the search doesn't understand XML and
causes errors.  I am investigating integrating SOLR as the search engine.
14:38 < quaid> ok, so I'm sending email to f-devel-l and fedora-list and
14:39 < quaid> harveybetty: honestly, considering how many Drupalheads I
know of, I'd bet that one has a clear run for the lead; if you are
interested in
               being part of a team that deploys/maintains, that is even
better :)
14:39 < quaid> we haven't heard of any DocBook module other than that one
14:39  * quaid ready to move on to the next agenda item
14:39 < quaid> anything more here?
14:40 < ke4qqq> nothing - but I'd like to ask a bunch of questions of
harveybetty at some point regarding drupal
14:40 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Maybe we should have a separate session after
the meeting
14:40 < harveybetty> Be glad too.  It is a generic XML module and you
can plug Docbook in.
14:40  * danielsmw agrees
14:40 < Sparks> ke4qqq: I have questions as well
14:41 < quaid> ok, maybe on #fedora-docs, start anytime IMO
14:41 < harveybetty> I can be available later on #fedora-docs.
14:41 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg ::
Release notes lead ...
14:41 < quaid> this remains our only un-led guide
14:42 < quaid> other than wider recruiting ...
14:42 < quaid> any other thoughts on that one?
14:42  * quaid notes that it is in fact usually much easier on the
writing and much harder on the wrangling of cats than other content
14:42 < Sparks> This is probably one of our biggest project that gets
the most attention.
14:43 < quaid> yeah, I think it's unlikely we'll just drop it
14:43 < quaid> despite whatever stickster and I have said :)
14:44 < quaid> so it might be worth a wider recruiting effort?
14:44 -!- moixs [n=chatzill 77-56-144-22 dclient hispeed ch] has joined
14:44 < stickster> quaid: How many wider recruiting efforts have we had
at this point, do you think?
14:44 -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk
14:44  * ke4qqq wonders if laubersm can be nudged more?
14:44  * Sparks warms up the pokers
14:44  * laubersm runs fast
14:45 -!- BobJensen [n=jensen fedora/bobjensen] has quit [Read error:
110 (Connection timed out)]
14:45 -!- EvilBob [n=EvilBob fedora/bobjensen] has quit [Read error: 110
(Connection timed out)]
14:46 < Sparks> laubersm: I'm sure you'll have support if you do take
the project.
14:46 -!- valente [n=valente 213 233 88 171] has quit ["Leaving."]
14:46 < quaid> stickster: not that much outside of my occasional pleas
via blogging
14:46 < Sparks> laubersm: Just need someone to "manage" its development.
14:46 < laubersm> sparks: I already have a project
14:46 < Sparks> :)
14:46 < ke4qqq> there's been the mailing list posts as well
14:46 < quaid> yeah, that's my concern, we don't want to overload those
who are already taking on assignments
14:47 < quaid> stickster: but with one thing to recruit for, maybe that
will help?
14:47 < ke4qqq> so here is my concern.....
14:47  * quaid listens
14:47 < ke4qqq> you are essentially talking about taking a person from 0
- - to responsible for what is arguably the most important document we
produce at
                least in terms of # of readers.
14:49 < quaid> ke4qqq: honestly, I'm going to be there all the way alongside
14:49 < quaid> but that is a good point
14:49 < Sparks> quaid: How long does it take to put all the changes in?
14:49 -!- ezq [n=ezq 201-213-152-14 net prima net ar] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
14:49 < quaid> Sparks: ideally one watches the wiki along the way and
makes it easier
14:49 < ke4qqq> that sounds scary......even though there is handholding
14:49 < quaid> true
14:50 < quaid> maybe I could ask for "interns" to work directly with me
for the release
14:50 < quaid> with the idea that one of them will step-up to lead for
the F12 release.
14:50 < ke4qqq> why not target the beat writers for F10?
14:51 < ke4qqq> esp the non-new feature writers
14:51 -!- EvilBob [n=EvilBob fedora/bobjensen] has joined #Fedora-Meeting
14:51 -!- BobJensen [n=jensen fedora/bobjensen] has joined #Fedora-Meeting
14:51 < quaid> ke4qqq: as in, direct asking if they want to lead?
14:51 < ke4qqq> yes
14:52 < quaid> that's not a bad idea in fact :)
14:52  * quaid makes himself a list
14:52 < quaid> so ...
14:52 < ke4qqq> that's a 'promotion'....lol
14:52 < quaid> 1. Ask existing beat writers from F10
14:52 -!- iarlyy [n=iarlyy mail libertynet com br] has joined
14:52 < quaid> 2. If no bites, maybe recruit ass't editors who get
promoted in the future.
14:52 < quaid> 3. If no go there, decide if we are going to do the guide
anyway or not
14:53 -!- cmpahar [n=cmpahar 83 212 63 5] has quit [Read error: 113 (No
route to host)]
14:53  * ke4qqq thinks FESCo will fire us if we don't.....besides that
gets more rave reviews.... - perhaps we drop another document and
refocus on that.
14:53  * ke4qqq shrugs
14:53 -!- rod085 [n=rod085 189 35 191 16] has joined #fedora-meeting
14:53 < Sparks> I see the Docs Project working on two kinds of projects:
14:54 < Sparks> 1) The projects we are passionate about
14:54 < Sparks> 2) The projects that need to get done for Fedora
14:54 < quaid> well, one can self-volunteer for 2) but you can't really
go asking for that too much.
14:54 < Sparks> While we all like doing the first type of projects we
all need to do the second type.
14:55  * ke4qqq doesn't see many projects that aren't #2, even if the
reason for working on them are #1.
14:56 < Sparks> ke4qqq: true
14:56  * ke4qqq can't get subjects and verbs to agree
14:56 < quaid> right, and the idea is to get #2 done via the #1 method
14:56 < quaid> then it's done better, with more fun, etc.
14:56 < ke4qqq> +1
14:57 < Sparks> +1
14:57 < laubersm> and if there is someone out there passionate about
having release notes.....
14:57 < quaid> :D
14:57 < quaid> well, if we drop the work, they'll sure notice :)
14:57 < ke4qqq> there are lots of people passionate about having
them....just not about writing them.
14:57 < quaid> is anyone available/interested in helping with the
recruting for RN lead?
14:58  * ke4qqq will work on recruiting a new RN lead
14:58 < quaid> ke4qqq: you're on!
14:58 < quaid> thx
14:58  * quaid will update our tasks table with this stuff, too
14:59 < quaid> since we are near closing
14:59 < quaid> how about if we call this here and retire to #fedora-docs?
14:59 < ke4qqq> +1
14:59 < danielsmw> +1
14:59 < quaid> sweet
14:59  * quaid closes in 5
14:59 < quaid> 4
14:59 < quaid> 3
14:59 < quaid> 2
14:59 < quaid> 1
14:59 < quaid> </meeting>

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