From pascal22p at parois.net Sun Mar 1 14:49:01 2009 From: pascal22p at parois.net (Pascal) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:49:01 +0000 Subject: wiki to xml Message-ID: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> Hi all, I was wondering how do you get mediawiki content into xml. Is it an home made script ? Simple ? A sophisticated and a heavy process ? I didn't found any detailed information about it on the fedoraproject website. I am making some latex/pdfs files from mediawiki content of fedora-fr.org with an ugly php script and I think it's time to think to something more efficient. So any advices are welcome :) I already have a look to the wiki2xml extension[1], which can be a possibility. Regards, Pascal [1] http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wiki2xml/w2x.php From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 23:13:27 2009 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 04:43:27 +0530 Subject: DF Day Custom Spin Message-ID: <78323d480903011513h1b6f5268j7979a558db6da7e8@mail.gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I am planning on a custom Fedora spin for DF-Day (25th March) for use by my DF team and others. The Fedora page for this is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Custom/DF-Spin The main thing is the kick start file. Please do come up with suggestions and do start with it. _____________ I have made a few changes to this old page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Custom I think the older spins should be moved to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Custom/Archives ...including Fedora 8 ? Best A. Mani -- A. Mani Member, Cal. Math. Soc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmrFEAACgkQunMISzvdfU7zmACdHp11je+HjvIeivf+XiBxeyfm SrwAoLjiPY1t9XptEIfVU2t12FBKR7ZG =tK9q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ccurran at redhat.com Mon Mar 2 05:22:56 2009 From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 15:22:56 +1000 Subject: wiki to xml In-Reply-To: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> References: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> Message-ID: <49AB6D30.4000502@redhat.com> Pascal wrote: > Hi all, > > I was wondering how do you get mediawiki content into xml. Is it an home > made script ? Simple ? A sophisticated and a heavy process ? > > I didn't found any detailed information about it on the fedoraproject > website. > > I am making some latex/pdfs files from mediawiki content of > fedora-fr.org with an ugly php script and I think it's time to think to > something more efficient. So any advices are welcome :) > > I already have a look to the wiki2xml extension[1], which can be a > possibility. > > > Regards, > Pascal > > [1] http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wiki2xml/w2x.php > > Unfortunately those scripts are mostly snakeoil. I've tried many of them and even had my hand at writing one myself but there is no easy way to convert them. The main issue is the conflicting views over what constitutes good XML. Most of the scripts produce horrendous XML. Also bear in mind what you are trying to do. Wiki is a simple markup language, docbook XML is a rich markup language. Wiki has elements related to formatting, docbook usually ignores formatting meta data. Wiki sometimes has inline PHP which just kills everything (if you have ever tried to write something which parses code as well as data you will know it's easier to write a cross compiler). To summarize it is a near impossible tasks to do well. All that said, it's much easier to go the other way, from XML to wiki. Chris From jkstriangle at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 06:00:55 2009 From: jkstriangle at gmail.com (Sibir Chakraborty) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:30:55 +0530 Subject: wiki to xml In-Reply-To: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> References: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> Message-ID: Hi all, There are several ways to do that. Depending on if you have physical access, there are a few simple and complete steps. 1. Please visit MWDump tool. This is available at: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Mwdumper 2. The other way is also directly omnipresent at: http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wiki2xml/w2x.php 3. MediaWiki also allows exporting articles to a simplified XML format. Now if the job is to export and import docs. The link to do that is at: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/MediaWiki_Administrator's_Handbook/Importing I could guide you thru' each of these, if you would like to do so. Let me know. Thanks, Sibir On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Pascal wrote: > Hi all, > > I was wondering how do you get mediawiki content into xml. Is it an home > made script ? Simple ? A sophisticated and a heavy process ? > > I didn't found any detailed information about it on the fedoraproject > website. > > I am making some latex/pdfs files from mediawiki content of > fedora-fr.org with an ugly php script and I think it's time to think to > something more efficient. So any advices are welcome :) > > I already have a look to the wiki2xml extension[1], which can be a > possibility. > > > Regards, > Pascal > > [1] http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wiki2xml/w2x.php > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 14:01:44 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:01:44 -0500 Subject: wiki to xml In-Reply-To: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> References: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> Message-ID: <20090302140144.GB6458@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, Mar 01, 2009 at 02:49:01PM +0000, Pascal wrote: > Hi all, > > I was wondering how do you get mediawiki content into xml. Is it an home > made script ? Simple ? A sophisticated and a heavy process ? > > I didn't found any detailed information about it on the fedoraproject > website. > > I am making some latex/pdfs files from mediawiki content of > fedora-fr.org with an ugly php script and I think it's time to think to > something more efficient. So any advices are welcome :) > > I already have a look to the wiki2xml extension[1], which can be a > possibility. There is a python-mwlib to which the MediaWiki developers actually contribute. It's in Fedora 10, but I seem to recall there may be some breakage going on right now because of an underlying library (odfpy?) that was pushed prematurely. I think Ian Weller was working on this. Ian, what's the status? -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ianweller at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 21:16:46 2009 From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 15:16:46 -0600 Subject: wiki to xml In-Reply-To: <20090302140144.GB6458@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> <20090302140144.GB6458@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090302211646.GA2902@gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 02, 2009 at 09:01:44AM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 2009 at 02:49:01PM +0000, Pascal wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I was wondering how do you get mediawiki content into xml. Is it an home > > made script ? Simple ? A sophisticated and a heavy process ? > > > > I didn't found any detailed information about it on the fedoraproject > > website. > > > > I am making some latex/pdfs files from mediawiki content of > > fedora-fr.org with an ugly php script and I think it's time to think to > > something more efficient. So any advices are welcome :) > > > > I already have a look to the wiki2xml extension[1], which can be a > > possibility. > > There is a python-mwlib to which the MediaWiki developers actually > contribute. It's in Fedora 10, but I seem to recall there may be some > breakage going on right now because of an underlying library (odfpy?) > that was pushed prematurely. > > I think Ian Weller was working on this. Ian, what's the status? > I've been highly distracted and if anyone else can work on it that would be wonderful. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486678 I think Jef has released a new dateutil but I can't remember. -- Ian Weller http://ianweller.org GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36 "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet." ~ Douglas Adams -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 21:49:02 2009 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:19:02 +0530 Subject: wiki to xml Message-ID: <78323d480903021349l6247dc33nf6994766bced87a@mail.gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Christopher Curran > Pascal wrote: >> I was wondering how do you get mediawiki content into xml. Is it an home >> made script ? Simple ? A sophisticated and a heavy process ? > Unfortunately those scripts are mostly snakeoil. I've tried many of them > and even had my hand at writing one myself but there is no easy way to > convert them. The main issue is the conflicting views over what > constitutes good XML. Most of the scripts produce horrendous XML. > Txt2tags produces clean but not necessarily good mark-up. Maybe it can be used or modified for the purpose. Best A. Mani -- A. Mani Member, Cal. Math. Soc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmsVVEACgkQunMISzvdfU5KLwCgjtr4URRVrvag/oH7DJVxKGAw DOsAoKEOAadX7LY8UxqnPQ723DZUzbBE =mlr4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pascal22p at parois.net Tue Mar 3 00:25:37 2009 From: pascal22p at parois.net (Pascal) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 00:25:37 +0000 Subject: wiki to xml In-Reply-To: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> References: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> Message-ID: <20090303002537.4b3097cd@parois.net> Le Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:49:01 +0000, Pascal a ?crit : > Hi all, > > I was wondering how do you get mediawiki content into xml. Is it an > home made script ? Simple ? A sophisticated and a heavy process ? > Thanks for all the answers, I need to have a closer to all of them now. Pascal From kwade at redhat.com Wed Mar 4 16:20:55 2009 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 08:20:55 -0800 Subject: wiki to xml In-Reply-To: <20090303002537.4b3097cd@parois.net> References: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> <20090303002537.4b3097cd@parois.net> Message-ID: <20090304162055.GF6166@calliope.phig.org> On Tue, Mar 03, 2009 at 12:25:37AM +0000, Pascal wrote: > Le Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:49:01 +0000, > Pascal a ?crit : > > > Hi all, > > > > I was wondering how do you get mediawiki content into xml. Is it an > > home made script ? Simple ? A sophisticated and a heavy process ? > > > > Thanks for all the answers, I need to have a closer to all of them now. I used mw-render form python-mwlibs for all the F10 work, here are the notes I took: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kwade/Post-processing_wiki2xml_results As was pointed out, the output is accurate for formatting but there is no contextual meaning. This is why we use a strict wiki markup pattern that allows us to manually clean-up. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WikiEditing#Marking_Technical_Terms What I mean is, if you use '''Application Name''' consistently, then that shows in the XML as Application Name. You can then do a search for each instance of and change it to the contextually meaningful . It is a bit tedious, but in the end ... it takes the same energy to convert from wiki to XML as XML to wiki. One way you compress out meaning, the other way you add in meaning. - Karsten -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Mar 4 16:24:00 2009 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 08:24:00 -0800 Subject: Meeting - new time (0000 UTC Thu./1900 EST Wed.) Message-ID: <20090304162400.GG6166@calliope.phig.org> Just a reminder that today is the first day of the new meeting time that hopefully gets more contributors. Don't forget! A bunch of the Docs contributors are busy in their other life activities, that is what happens, everyone just keep your heads up, and don't forget to check the schedule. http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html I should be at the meeting today; I'm scheduled to hit the road right afterward (driving South for http://CUE2009.org.) - Karsten -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From simon at zikula.org Wed Mar 4 16:58:48 2009 From: simon at zikula.org (Simon Birtwistle) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 16:58:48 -0000 Subject: Meeting - new time (0000 UTC Thu./1900 EST Wed.) In-Reply-To: <20090304162400.GG6166@calliope.phig.org> References: <20090304162400.GG6166@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <027f01c99cea$7e572350$7b0569f0$@org> Sadly the new time is when I am asleep. If there are any CMS related questions involving me best to catch me on-list before 23.00 UTC. Simon > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-docs-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-docs-list- > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Karsten Wade > Sent: 04 March 2009 16:24 > To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > Subject: Meeting - new time (0000 UTC Thu./1900 EST Wed.) > > Just a reminder that today is the first day of the new meeting time > that hopefully gets more contributors. Don't forget! > > A bunch of the Docs contributors are busy in their other life > activities, that is what happens, everyone just keep your heads up, and > don't forget to check the schedule. > > http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html > > I should be at the meeting today; I'm scheduled to hit the road right > afterward (driving South for http://CUE2009.org.) > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org > AD0E0C41 > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.7/1982 - Release Date: > 03/03/09 16:09:00 From pascal22p at parois.net Wed Mar 4 17:37:57 2009 From: pascal22p at parois.net (Pascal) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:37:57 +0000 Subject: wiki to xml In-Reply-To: <20090304162055.GF6166@calliope.phig.org> References: <20090301144901.41ced57c@parois.net> <20090303002537.4b3097cd@parois.net> <20090304162055.GF6166@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <20090304173757.31b63342@parois.net> Le Wed, 4 Mar 2009 08:20:55 -0800, Karsten Wade a ?crit : > > I used mw-render form python-mwlibs for all the F10 work, here are the > notes I took: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kwade/Post-processing_wiki2xml_results > > As was pointed out, the output is accurate for formatting but there is > no contextual meaning. This is why we use a strict wiki markup > pattern that allows us to manually clean-up. I didn't look at it yet :) We already have some rules for the wiki and we try to keep it simple. No condition case, php, complicated/nested wiki markup... The contextual meaning is a problem. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WikiEditing#Marking_Technical_Terms > > What I mean is, if you use '''Application Name''' consistently, then > that shows in the XML as Application > Name. You can then do a search for each instance of > and change it to the contextually > meaningful . We've got specific wiki markup for these that need to be kept in the xml: Application name /chemin/vers command Key and so on The other thing I want to keep is the templates. Templates shouldn't be expanded in the xml. Actually, these specific markup and templates are kept into latex commands or environnements: \newcommand{\cmd}[1]{\textit{{\large\guilsinglleft}\,#1\,{\large\guilsinglright}}\xspace} \newenvironment{Warning}{% \definecolor{shadecolor}{rgb}{1,0.9,1}% \begin{center}\begin{shaded}\begin{footnotesize}% \raisebox{\dimexpr-\height+0.5\baselineskip}% {\includegraphics[width=1cm]{InProgress_tip}} \hfill\begin{minipage}[t]{\dimexpr\textwidth-1.2cm}% } {% \end{minipage}\end{footnotesize}\end{shaded}\end{center}} Pascal From laubersm at fedoraproject.org Wed Mar 4 18:21:59 2009 From: laubersm at fedoraproject.org (Susan Lauber) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 13:21:59 -0500 Subject: Status of Administration Guide Message-ID: Concerning the status of Administration Guide. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AGBeta It sits in a Draft subdir with a drafts admon I already archived an older draft that references this draft. It has no owner that I am aware of. It is not clear what version of Fedora it references (I only gave a very quick look at the first page) but it is doubtful that it is the current so at least some updates would be needed even though much of it is version independent. And.... and there is no plan for how it dovetails in to the 'Linux Deployment Guide' content that has been slowly opening from within Red Hat. so I'm unclear on that one; perhaps a list discussion to see what people want to do on the adminside? Discuss. Specifically: Do I rename with Archive: or the new and improved mediawiki naming scheme? Thanks, -Susan -- Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS) Lauber System Solutions, Inc. http://www.laubersolutions.com gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE 4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974 From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org Wed Mar 4 18:29:08 2009 From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0500 Subject: Status of Administration Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Susan Lauber wrote: > Concerning the status of Administration Guide. > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AGBeta > > It sits in a Draft subdir with a drafts admon > I already archived an older draft that references this draft. > > It has no owner that I am aware of. > It is not clear what version of Fedora it references (I only gave a > very quick look at the first page) > but it is doubtful that it is the current so at least some updates > would be needed even though much of it is version independent. > And.... > and there is no plan for how it dovetails in to the ?'Linux > Deployment Guide' content that has been slowly opening from within Red > Hat. > so I'm unclear on that one; perhaps a list discussion to see > what people want to do on the adminside? > > Discuss. > > Specifically: ?Do I rename with Archive: ?or the new and improved > mediawiki naming scheme? > > Thanks, > -Susan > > -- > Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS) > Lauber System Solutions, Inc. > http://www.laubersolutions.com > gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE ?4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974 > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > +1 to archive From kirk202 at q.com Wed Mar 4 21:09:50 2009 From: kirk202 at q.com (Kirk) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:09:50 -0700 Subject: Please Help Proofing Message-ID: I finsihed the UG Office Tools page. Read it so many times I'm now Brain-dead. Can anyone lend their expertise and read it over? Its at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide_-_Office_Tools Feel free to edit as you see fit or let me know what needs fixing. We know there are several KOffice applications not included but we will include them in the F11 User-Guide. Thanks for any help you can give, -Kirk From stickster at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 22:49:03 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:49:03 -0500 Subject: Meeting - new time (0000 UTC Thu./1900 EST Wed.) In-Reply-To: <20090304162400.GG6166@calliope.phig.org> References: <20090304162400.GG6166@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <20090304224903.GE4623@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Mar 04, 2009 at 08:24:00AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > Just a reminder that today is the first day of the new meeting time > that hopefully gets more contributors. Don't forget! > > A bunch of the Docs contributors are busy in their other life > activities, that is what happens, everyone just keep your heads up, > and don't forget to check the schedule. > > http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html > > I should be at the meeting today; I'm scheduled to hit the road right > afterward (driving South for http://CUE2009.org.) This would normally not be a terrible time for me, but tonight is an exception. Sorry I won't make it... -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sradvan at redhat.com Tue Mar 10 03:10:03 2009 From: sradvan at redhat.com (Scott Radvan) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:10:03 +1000 Subject: Proof/Review of Security Guide Message-ID: <20090310131003.59484dec@redhat.com> Hi f-d-l, Draft status from the security-guide has been removed and I have built HTML-{single,multi} and PDF versions, which are available at: http://sradvan.fedorapeople.org/Security_Guide/en-US/ I am very close to having it pushed up, however any reviewers or otherwise interested parties having a look would be most welcome, so feel free to check it out before I finish up and please let me know what you think, or if there are any comments on it at all. Cheers, -- Scott Radvan, Content Author Red Hat APAC (Brisbane) http://www.apac.redhat.com From eric at christensenplace.us Tue Mar 10 22:35:49 2009 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:35:49 -0400 Subject: Proof/Review of Security Guide In-Reply-To: <20090310131003.59484dec@redhat.com> References: <20090310131003.59484dec@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1236724549.14236.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Scott, That's excellent! Thank you for your hard work. Eric On Tue, 2009-03-10 at 13:10 +1000, Scott Radvan wrote: > Hi f-d-l, > > > Draft status from the security-guide has been removed and I have built > HTML-{single,multi} and PDF versions, which are available at: > > http://sradvan.fedorapeople.org/Security_Guide/en-US/ > > I am very close to having it pushed up, however any reviewers or > otherwise interested parties having a look would be most welcome, so > feel free to check it out before I finish up and please let me know what > you think, or if there are any comments on it at all. > > > Cheers, > > -- > Scott Radvan, Content Author > Red Hat APAC (Brisbane) http://www.apac.redhat.com > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bugzilla at redhat.com Tue Mar 10 22:53:06 2009 From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:53:06 -0400 Subject: [Bug 489617] New: csh/tcsh : Unknown colorls variable `rs'. Message-ID: Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional comments should be made in the comments box of this bug. Summary: csh/tcsh : Unknown colorls variable `rs'. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489617 Summary: csh/tcsh : Unknown colorls variable `rs'. Product: Fedora Hosted Projects Version: unspecified Platform: x86_64 OS/Version: Linux Status: NEW Severity: medium Priority: low Component: Deployment_Guide AssignedTo: mhideo at redhat.com ReportedBy: tevang3 at gmail.com QAContact: rlerch at redhat.com CC: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com Classification: Fedora Description of problem: when switching to csh/tcsh the error message is displayed. Version-Release number of selected component (if applicable): How reproducible: Always (as far as I am concerned).repositories Steps to Reproduce: 1. download and install tcsh from FC 10 2. type csh or tcsh 3. Actual results: Unknown colorls variable `rs'. Expected results: to switch to csh or tcsh Additional info: -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug. From bugzilla at redhat.com Tue Mar 10 23:02:00 2009 From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 19:02:00 -0400 Subject: [Bug 489617] csh/tcsh : Unknown colorls variable `rs'. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200903102302.n2AN20VQ030716@bz-web1.app.phx.redhat.com> Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional comments should be made in the comments box of this bug. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489617 Rahul Sundaram changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEW |ASSIGNED Version|unspecified |10 CC| |pnewell at cs.cmu.edu, | |sundaram at redhat.com, | |vcrhonek at redhat.com Component|Deployment_Guide |tcsh AssignedTo|mhideo at redhat.com |vcrhonek at redhat.com QAContact|rlerch at redhat.com |extras-qa at fedoraproject.org Product|Fedora Hosted Projects |Fedora --- Comment #1 from Rahul Sundaram 2009-03-10 19:01:59 EDT --- Reassigning incorrectly assigned bug -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug. From bugzilla at redhat.com Tue Mar 10 23:30:05 2009 From: bugzilla at redhat.com (bugzilla at redhat.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 19:30:05 -0400 Subject: [Bug 489617] csh/tcsh : Unknown colorls variable `rs'. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200903102330.n2ANU5aH009503@bz-web2.app.phx.redhat.com> Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional comments should be made in the comments box of this bug. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489617 Paul W. Frields changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC|fedora-docs-list at redhat.com | -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug. From stickster at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 02:50:46 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:50:46 -0400 Subject: Meeting reminder Message-ID: <20090311025046.GK23024@localhost.localdomain> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20090225 Two reminders, just to help out Eric: * According to the log, meeting time does not change with DST. It remains 0000 UTC Tuesday, which will be 8:00pm EDT/5:00pm PDT and -- I think -- 10:00am (Wednesday) BNE time. * This coming week is to include a review of release notes process. Karsten and I will try to be here for that meeting. Please bring yourselves and your questions so we can ensure we have tasks covered for the upcoming F11 release! The full F11 schedule: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-all-tasks Docs only: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks Relevant actions for release notes: 2009-03-12 Comb beats pages, make sure content is sufficient 2009-03-18 F11 Beta release meeting 2009-03-23 Prepare (complete) Beta release notes one sheet 2009-03-24 FEDORA 11 BETA RELEASE 2009-04-01 Freeze wiki for F11 Preview (full-size) release notes, port to XML 2009-04-02 Generate POT files for release notes translation, notify L10n team, and unfreeze wiki 2009-04-21 Collect PO, tag repo, and generate fedora-release-notes RPM package (10.93) 2009-04-22 F11 Preview release meeting 2009-04-28 FEDORA 11 PREVIEW RELEASE 2009-04-29 Freeze wiki for F11 GA release notes, and port wiki diffs into XML for F11 GA release notes 2009-04-30 Generate POT files for release notes translation, notify L10n team, and unfreeze wiki 2009-05-08 Collect PO, tag repo, and generate fedora-release-notes RPM package (11) 2009-05-22 Port final wiki diff to XML for zero-day release notes update 2009-05-23 Build updated RPM (may contain incomplete L10n), request tag for f11-updates (11.0.1) 2009-05-23 Generate POT for 0-day translation, notify L10n team 2009-05-26 FEDORA 11 GA RELEASE 2009-06-04 Collect PO, tag repo, generate fedora-release-notes RPM package (11.1) In looking at the schedule John has, I'm not sure about the late-May stuff logically. Some of the target dates and ordering seem like they're off kilter. I can ask him to stop by and talk to us about it on #fedora-docs at some point this week if helpful. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cpanceac at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 10:09:52 2009 From: cpanceac at gmail.com (cornel panceac) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:09:52 +0200 Subject: 10 tips for sensible systems administration Message-ID: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-sensiblesysadmin/index.html some ideas :) -- Linux counter #213090 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Mar 12 02:02:44 2009 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:02:44 -0700 Subject: Docs team IRC log 20090312 Message-ID: <20090312020244.GA5003@calliope.phig.org> Wiki formatted: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meetings:Docs_IRC_log_20090312 Raw log attached. - Karsten -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- 17:05 * quaid looks around 17:05 * jjmcd is here 17:05 * radsy here 17:05 * laubersm is sort of here 17:05 < kirkz> kirkz is her 17:05 -!- ryanlerch [n=rlerch at nat/redhat/x-5df7f47308d67817] has joined #fedora-meeting 17:05 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg 17:05 < jjmcd> GM ryanlerch 17:05 < quaid> 17:05 -!- mdious [n=mmcallis at nat/redhat/x-e94a24b95a20cf90] has joined #fedora-meeting 17:05 * ke4qqq pretends to be here 17:06 * quaid reloading browser, if someone else has a link to the agenda handy ... 17:07 * ryanlerch is here 17:07 < mdious> here 17:08 < quaid> ok, I'm agenda less 17:08 < quaid> I know release notes were a hot topic 17:08 < kirkz> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting 17:08 < quaid> last night there was some solution thinking done to figure out how to get Fedora-legal packages from Publican 17:10 -!- rudi [n=rlandman at nat/redhat/x-0301dda83f4e389b] has joined #fedora-meeting 17:10 < jjmcd> I have a hack, now I need somebody who knows what he is doing to tell me if there is anything wrong 17:10 < ianweller> oh hi 17:10 < jjmcd> The resulting package installs ok, passes rpmlint, and meets the guidelines as best i can tell 17:10 < jjmcd> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Converting_Publican_RPM_for_Fedora 17:11 < jjmcd> But I know zip about packaging so there could be horrible monsters hiding there 17:13 < quaid> hmm 17:13 < quaid> this is one that is probably worth explaining in detail 17:13 < quaid> to the mailing list 17:13 < quaid> and seeking feedback that way. 17:13 < jjmcd> That might be a plan 17:13 < quaid> otherwise we'll spend this whole meeting in technojungle 17:13 < jjmcd> yah 17:14 -!- nman64 is now known as nman64_away 17:15 < quaid> ah, now I see agenda 17:15 < quaid> well, are there any questions on this item? 17:16 < mdious> radsy: does help you? 17:17 < radsy> mdious, yes it looks good, but not knowing a lot about packaging, feedback from someone who works more closely with packaging would be valuable 17:17 < laubersm> quaid, As I understand it - Rel Notes have a deliverable soon - how can those of us not already involved help? 17:17 -!- themayor [n=jack at dsl081-200-011.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [] 17:17 < ryanlerch> laubersm: we need writers 17:18 -!- stickster [n=npfrield at fedora/stickster] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18 < quaid> jjmcd: ok, can you send that email to the list? 17:18 < jjmcd> Yes I will 17:18 < quaid> hey, stickster, don't go now! 17:18 < laubersm> ryanlerch, in wiki? research can content or wordsmithing and proofreading 17:18 * laubersm expects both 17:18 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg -- Release notes: i) Beta deliverable discussion; ii) process discussion 17:19 < jjmcd> research more thanwordsmithing 17:19 < quaid> so, yeah, the Beta one-page is next due ... 17:19 < jjmcd> Especially it seems like the more technical beats - kernel, arch-specific, like that 17:19 < quaid> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html 17:20 < jjmcd> quaid: is that much more than an edit to the alpha? 17:20 < quaid> Mon 2009-03-23 17:20 < quaid> jjmcd: well .. 17:20 < quaid> take Alpha, make new page 17:20 < quaid> check features, see if there is content to mention/migrate 17:20 < quaid> check beats, see if there is content to mention/migrate 17:20 < quaid> post to f-devel-l and say, hey, the Beta page is open, put stuff there 17:21 < quaid> make sure it is edited by ~22 March :) 17:21 < quaid> so a repeat of the Alpha process, just easier since the page exists. 17:21 < jjmcd> hehe - there is one heck of a lot of content, whether it is worth mentioning depends on who you are 17:22 -!- stickster [n=pfrields at ip72-205-14-2.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #fedora-meeting 17:23 < jjmcd> If you're a developer, gcc is a big deal, if you're not, who cares 17:24 < quaid> well, it's a one page 17:24 < quaid> not a preview of the big notes 17:24 < jjmcd> yep 17:24 < stickster> jjmcd: I've been hearing radio silence since about 0007 UTC -- but I think my server fell over without me knowing it. 17:24 < quaid> you can link to the beats in progress, for example 17:24 < quaid> stickster: yep 17:24 < stickster> If I missed stuff, can someone pastebin it for me? 17:25 < quaid> stickster: sure, I will, just a moment 17:25 < radsy> what's the last thing you saw? 17:25 < stickster> Nothing since 0000 UTC other than me yapping 17:25 < quaid> stickster: http://fpaste.org/paste/5905 17:25 < stickster> Thanks quaid 17:26 < quaid> ok, that cutoff the "I'm here" 17:26 * ianweller goes for dinner, sorry 17:26 < quaid> and I just discovered I need to do a child pick-up, zapped by the time change 17:26 < quaid> stickster: can you takeover with "relnotes process" talk? 17:26 < quaid> after you catch up :) 17:27 < stickster> OK 17:27 < quaid> ok, brb 17:27 < ryanlerch> where is Sparks? 17:27 < jjmcd> net probs 17:27 < stickster> *: OK, it looks like quaid explained the Beta relnotes one-page 17:28 < stickster> At this time, we should also be starting to make sure we know beat assignments, ask for developers and community people to help shore up beats that have no assigned persons 17:29 < stickster> I haven't seen the docs-list since yesterday -- did anyone read my schedule? 17:29 < stickster> s/my/the excerpted/ 17:30 < jjmcd> I scanned it and didn't see any surprises, i think we were all a little shell shocked after last night 17:30 < stickster> What happened last night? 17:30 < jjmcd> phone conf where we learned about publican probs 17:30 < jjmcd> the ones i'm trying to sort 17:30 < stickster> Uh 17:31 < stickster> Can I read about these somewhere? 17:31 < jjmcd> I don't think Sparks wrote it down, I posted a hack on the wiki basically 17:31 < jjmcd> publican makes rpms that won't pass review 17:32 < stickster> Ah, OK, that's been a continuing problem, and I recall that bug. 17:32 < jjmcd> Sparks can get a good rpm by hacking publican, but that is obvioulsy a prob 17:32 < jjmcd> so i am looking at a post process 17:32 < mdious> he could submit a patch and make a new option... "make fedora-srpm...." 17:32 < jjmcd> The prob is making it an option is hard 17:32 < jjmcd> and changing it breaks it for RH 17:33 < stickster> mdious: Making it an option should only be a Makefile change, right? 17:33 < stickster> It just needs a make rule? 17:34 < mdious> stickster: in the templates I think...if you use strace i believe the little makefile with each book pulls in the 'big ones' 17:34 < mdious> just a sec...bugging someone about 17:34 < mdious> it 17:34 < stickster> mdious: That's how I understand it. That's just how ours worked too. 17:34 < mdious> i think the issue is how ot make a desktop file that won't break on other distros 17:35 < jjmcd> I couldn't see much in the publican desktop file different from the packaging guidelines 17:35 < mdious> someone is thinking about the desktop file issue... 17:35 < stickster> Is the problem the .desktop file or the .spec file here? 17:35 < jjmcd> both 17:35 < stickster> OK, I see two problems here right now. 17:35 < ke4qqq> but the packaging guidelines say that if anything is changed in .desktop you need to create a new one 17:36 < jjmcd> the package gets the wrong name 17:36 < mdious> http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/funny-pictures-cat-is-pondering.jpg 17:36 * stickster steps back for a sec 17:37 < stickster> The last mention I see of this bug was quite a while ago on the docs list. 17:37 < stickster> If we want people to help or participate we need to see the discussion there 17:37 -!- fab [n=bellet at bellet.info] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:37 < jjmcd> I think Sparks thought someone would deal with it back in Jan, and was giving him some time 17:38 < mdious> perhaps since the second last comment is about a patch, someone is waiting for a patch? 17:38 < ke4qqq> last I heard in a meeting someone was tasked with finding out what the packaging guideline differences were and why RH and Fedora have different guidelines. at least that's the last I recall seeing. 17:38 < stickster> ke4qqq: Do you remember who was tasked with that? 17:39 < mdious> quaid 17:39 < ke4qqq> I at least remember quaid was asking the question - he may well have taken the task 17:39 * quaid sticks his head in from the community center 17:40 < stickster> We're kind of off in the weeds here, but quaid, take a look at the above. 17:40 < stickster> Let's go back to release notes now. 17:40 < quaid> nope, I didn't take that task. 17:40 < stickster> quaid: OK 17:40 < mdious> i think you did 17:40 < stickster> jjmcd: Can you take the task of (1) finding out who took that task, and (2) reporting it to the fedora-docs-list? 17:41 < quaid> what is happening, once again we approach zero hour and no one has cared enough to make Publican work for Fedora. 17:41 < jjmcd> roger 17:41 < quaid> mdious: hmm, well, if I did, it was probably a mistake :) 17:41 < mdious> quaid: I'll find the link...i want to confirm I'm not going insane ;) 17:42 < stickster> Let's leave the tooling aside for a bit. 17:42 < stickster> Let's talk about the release notes process. 17:42 < stickster> Tooling is important, I'm not denying that -- but we set this meeting up to help people understand this process and I want to make sure we hit that target if possible. 17:43 < stickster> I'm getting the feeling that people didn't have a chance to review the schedule highlights I sent. 17:43 < stickster> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-March/msg00021.html 17:44 < stickster> Here's basically how things work. We have essentially two different "flavors" of release notes during a release cycle. First, there's the one-sheets. Second, there's the full-blown compendium. 17:44 < stickster> The one-sheets are used for the Alpha and Beta release. 17:44 < stickster> The compendium is created first for the Preview Release, then polished again for the GA, and then we prepare a zero-day update to catch things that didn't make it for the GA spin. 17:45 < stickster> Does this make sense so far? 17:45 < radsy> yep 17:45 < jjmcd> I assume for alpha and beta we also make an rpm to invlude in the package 17:45 < kirkz> what's GA? 17:45 < stickster> General Availability 17:45 < stickster> i.e. Final 17:45 < stickster> or "gold" 17:46 < stickster> That's the one that gets printed up, put on our download mirrors, torrents, etc. 17:46 < stickster> jjmcd: No, one sheets for Alpha and Beta are not packaged. 17:46 < stickster> They are only written on the wiki. 17:46 < jjmcd> OK... that simplifies it a bit 17:46 < stickster> The Alpha and Beta one-sheets are created there because things are too much in flux to bother with a big deal of RPM packaging, web publishing, translation, and other stuff 17:47 < jjmcd> At one point you talked about a diff on the wiki ... I assume you use the mediawiki export? 17:47 < stickster> jjmcd: Let's not talk about specific tools right now. 17:47 < jjmcd> ok 17:47 < stickster> I think it's more important to discuss the process first, then we can drill down 17:48 < stickster> All right, so about now, Docs team members should be emailing developers, including the f-devel-l, to make sure that devs know they can write content in the Beats pages, to be included in the "compendium" versions of the release notes. 17:48 < stickster> Actually, that should have already started. If it hasn't then Sparks should head up that work. 17:49 < stickster> I'll record it here for the summary: 17:49 < stickster> ACTION ITEM: Sparks -- kick off f-devel-l call for content in release notes beats on wiki 17:49 < jjmcd> I have poked a few developers where I knew stuff was happening that was interesting and could identify a victim 17:49 < stickster> Let's look at that schedule together to make this process flow easier to understand, herer's the link again: 17:49 < stickster> jjmcd: cool 17:49 < stickster> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-March/msg00021.html 17:49 -!- mejla [n=mejla at 75.195.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:50 < stickster> On April 1, we "freeze" the release notes beats on the wiki. 17:50 < quaid> stickster: just a process correction, shouldn't it be the relnotes lead who kicks off the f-devel-l call for content? 17:50 < quaid> caveat that all should be helping raise the visibility. 17:50 < stickster> quaid: Oops, I'm sorry, you're right, I had forgotten about the relnotes lead 17:50 < stickster> I apologize profusely!!! :-0 17:51 < stickster> OK, now I'll wipe the gravel off my knees and continue 17:51 < stickster> So, on 1 April we "freeze" the wiki. 17:51 < ryanlerch> so, are the one-sheets seperate documents? or just a summary of the current content in the proper release notes? 17:51 * ianweller isn't even sure what that means. just with release notes, right? 17:52 < stickster> ryanlerch: They are separate documents, only highlights. They also can be changed by the community itself as important issues are uncovered. 17:52 < ryanlerch> so in theory, there may be content in the one-sheets that never get over into the release notes 17:52 < stickster> ryanlerch: Thinking of them as a summary is probably not quite correct, since there's often not good content in the beats by that point. 17:53 < stickster> It would be nice if we had current Rawhide beats constantly, but that's another matter for another day. 17:53 < ryanlerch> maybe, that content should go into the release notes first then 17:53 < stickster> ryanlerch: It should go to both, yes. 17:54 < ryanlerch> just scanning the alpha notes, and there is content that is in there and on in the main beat pages 17:54 * quaid is about to drop offline again for a few to transit 17:54 < jjmcd> Some of the stuff in the one sheets seems a little expansive in the context of what else is happening in the release notes 17:54 < ryanlerch> i.e. the x changes 17:54 < stickster> Yes, from time to time the scope will probably be uneven because of the community editability. That's a price we pay for an open process. 17:55 < stickster> Since people use the Alpha and/or Beta for a significant amount of time after their release as "starting points" for testing (i.e. install Alpha, update to Rawhide, test), we do want to keep those flexible and editable for everyone 17:55 < stickster> OK, I need to make it a long way through this schedule and I'm running out of time here. 17:55 < stickster> Let's forge on. 17:55 < jjmcd> Yes, and there is good sales material there, too 17:56 < stickster> So, between 1-2 April we are porting the beats of the release notes to XML. 17:56 < stickster> This is an *intense* process because typically automated tools don't produce great DocBook XML from wiki text. 17:56 < stickster> It definitely gets you about 75% of the way there, though. 17:56 < ryanlerch> my current mockup is pretty up to date with the beats on the wiki ATM 17:57 < ryanlerch> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/Release_Notes/ 17:57 < stickster> ryanlerch: That's awesome -- if we get it into the git repo, then it will make the process much easier. 17:57 < stickster> So 17:57 < ryanlerch> stickster: that is my next task 17:57 < mdious> git makes things much easier? ;) ;) 17:57 < ryanlerch> i just have no idea with git 17:58 * rudi will be helping make that happen in the next couple of days 17:58 < stickster> Once we have good XML, one way or the other -- and we really need to make that happen within about 24 hours of the wiki freeze -- we generate POT files for the translators, notify the fedora-trans-list they're ready, and unfreeze the wiki. 17:58 < Tsagadai> ryanlerch, I'm converting my guide and notes to docbook after lunch 17:58 < stickster> The thing to remember about the release notes from the l10n perspective is, they're big. 17:58 < ryanlerch> okay, will work with Tsagadai and rudi on getting these in git 17:59 < stickster> For the Preview Release, we give the translators about 18-19 days 18:00 < stickster> On 21 April, we collect their PO (essentially this just means we look at the repo, where their submissions have already gone, we don't really have to "collect" anything), we tag the repository with a good tag like "10.93.0" (for F11 preview), and generate a SRPM for importing to the package build system. 18:00 < stickster> Keep in mind that, after we unfroze the wiki on 2 April, there are probably changes still happening as people discover little fixes here and there 18:01 < stickster> (or in some cases, a developer discovers they need a big chunk of advice somewhere) ;-) 18:01 < stickster> On 29 April, we basically do this routine again, but it gets easier. 18:01 < stickster> We freeze the wiki for the F11 Final release notes, but this time it's very easy 18:02 < stickster> We look for diffs between the last freeze and "now" (29 April) 18:02 < stickster> If there aren't any, that beat's already up to date. 18:02 < stickster> If there are, you port the diff to XML. In most cases, I found it easiest to do this by just copy-pasting text and applying tags as needed. 18:03 < stickster> *** Note: if ryanlerch's material is up to date with the wiki prior to either the Preview Release phase, or this Final phase, the job will become easier still. 18:03 < stickster> Just a side point. 18:04 < stickster> So again, on 30 April, having taken only about 24 hours to do wiki diffs and final porting, we generate POT files, notify the fedora-trans-list again, and unfreeze. 18:04 < jjmcd> can we watch a category and see changed pages in that category? 18:04 < stickster> jjmcd: I don't know, maybe ianweller does 18:04 < ryanlerch> i am watching all the individual pages... 18:04 < stickster> I prefer to put pages on my personal watch list. 18:04 < ryanlerch> but i may have missed soen 18:04 < ryanlerch> *some 18:05 < jjmcd> ryanlerch - that was my concern -- if a new one shows up there is some chance it will be in the beats category 18:05 < stickster> OK, returning to the schedule, notice that we don't give as much translation time for Final. That's because the vast quantity of material should already be done, and unchanged from the Preview Release. 18:05 < stickster> So the translators don't need as much time. 18:06 < jjmcd> And presumably the translators have the schedule too so they know what's coming 18:06 < stickster> jjmcd: correct! 18:06 < stickster> jjmcd: And the relnotes coordinator should be making sure they see it repeatedly along the way ;-) 18:06 < ianweller> hi! 18:06 < stickster> jjmcd: And if there are any conflicts, usually they're easily resolved by scootching a day or so this way or taht. 18:06 < stickster> *that. 18:07 < ianweller> jjmcd: at this moment no you can't 18:07 < jjmcd> so hopefully more than introductions on the l10n list 18:07 < stickster> ianweller: thanks 18:07 < stickster> jjmcd: Right. 18:07 < ianweller> and unless somebody wants to write some damn good PHP i'm nots eeing how that will be possible in the near future ;) 18:08 < stickster> jjmcd: Of course, our delivery of SRPM package is subject to when it's needed by release engineering. But this schedule was designed in cahoots with that schedule too, so it should work. 18:08 * jjmcd has been writing too much php past couple days 18:08 < jjmcd> yep 18:08 < stickster> All right, finally on 8 May, we again tag the repo and generate a SRPM package. 18:08 < jjmcd> Now, what happens once we have an srpm in out hot little hands 18:08 < stickster> "11.0.0" is a good one ;-) 18:09 < stickster> jjmcd: You can let me know and I'd import it into the fedora-release-notes package CVS 18:09 * quaid back and reading buffer 18:09 < stickster> Then it would be built and tagged by release engineering. 18:09 * laubersm has to go but will catch up in the morning 18:09 < stickster> G'night laubersm, thanks for coming 18:10 < jjmcd> OK, so once it is in the CVS then others do their magic 18:10 < stickster> If you look at the schedule for late May, you can see that we once again do this for a zero-day update. I won't try anyone's patience by repeating this process again :-) 18:10 < stickster> jjmcd: Exactly. 18:10 < stickster> Now... for the Preview Release you will probably need to consult with f13 to help you with the import 18:10 < stickster> Because..... 18:10 < stickster> *drumroll* 18:10 < stickster> I will be on vacation from about 12-April to 21-April. 18:11 < jjmcd> is that allowed? 18:11 < stickster> Allowed, schmallowed. 18:11 < stickster> I do what I want! Whatevah! 18:12 * jjmcd will be going to FDIM shortly before GA but I see that the boys in Dayton were nice enough to schedule that when I'm waiting for translators 18:12 < stickster> They're wise like that. 18:12 < stickster> I'm sure quaid will be around to lend guidance where needed 18:13 < quaid> sho'nuff 18:13 < stickster> As far as the SRPM goes, we definitely need to have that problem solved by about 25-March. 18:14 < jjmcd> It seems to me that worst case, you take the Publican output and package it manually, but if we can get Publican to do the heavy lifting ... 18:15 -!- jwb [n=jwboyer at fedora/jwb] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15 < quaid> that looks like a good overview of the process 18:15 < stickster> If Publican writes good tarballs, one could write a spec template of our own to use withit. 18:15 < stickster> s/withit/with it/ 18:15 < jjmcd> filled in some holes for me 18:16 < stickster> It's not as hard as it sounds, but you really have to track it as it goes. 18:16 < jjmcd> stickster: The link is on the fpaste, but the tar is named wrong, but otherwise ok 18:16 < stickster> Especially, you don't want to wait until the last minute to do a build of the whole complete translated group, and find out only then that you don't know how to figure out where a translation is breaking. 18:17 < jjmcd> The F10 spec file is about 10 times the size of the Publican spec file 18:17 < stickster> What happens often is that a translator has to turn 'a big bunch of technical stuff' into 'bigger buncher techniker stoof' 18:18 * quaid lol 18:18 < stickster> If they do 'bigger buncher technicker stoof' (see the error there?), the build breaks. And *you* have to find it and fix it. 18:18 < jjmcd> and of course you are doing that at the last minute 18:18 < stickster> (hint: the misspelling isn't the error) 18:18 < stickster> (that's the sv-CHEF translation) 18:19 < stickster> or is it sk-CHEF? I forget. 18:19 < stickster> Anyway 18:19 < jjmcd> someone threatened MORE languages for F11? 18:19 < stickster> jjmcd: My point is, you want to leave enough time to fix these little problems 18:19 < jjmcd> yep 18:19 < stickster> Just a word to the wise from someone non-wise who stayed up many late hours because of bad planning on his part :-) 18:20 < stickster> However... there's always the chance that it will be perfect and you'll be able to go out and get ice cream instead! 18:20 < jjmcd> I like that plan better - let's do it that way 18:20 < stickster> hee hee 18:21 < quaid> first we need autobuilding of the translations along the way so we can put the onus to test on the l10n teams 18:21 < quaid> but there I go being practical again! 18:21 < stickster> quaid: One possible problem there is that expecting translators to identify XML errors may be out of scope 18:21 < jjmcd> Isn't it just make html_bg_IN ? 18:21 < stickster> We have many brilliant translators, so it *could* work 18:22 < stickster> jjmcd: Right, but we're talking about automating it in a way that doesn't make them have to have Fedora, Publican, command line skills, etc.... 18:22 * stickster really needs to run now 18:22 < jjmcd> ahh yes 18:22 < jjmcd> I forget there are people that like to click 18:22 < stickster> Can I ask someone to take log and summary duties? I have about 1400 emails waiting to address. 18:22 < quaid> there are ways to make it work even with XML errors, but that requires, uh, resources and stuff. 18:23 < quaid> ok, then, let's close this meeting 18:23 -!- mdious [n=mmcallis at nat/redhat/x-e94a24b95a20cf90] has left #fedora-meeting [] 18:23 < quaid> if anyone has any more, hop to the list with it, ok? 18:23 < quaid> ok, in 5 18:23 < quaid> 4 18:23 < quaid> 3 18:23 < quaid> 2 18:23 < quaid> 1 18:23 < quaid> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wb8rcr at arrl.net Thu Mar 12 12:57:52 2009 From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:57:52 -0400 Subject: Publican Issues for RNs Message-ID: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> Let me preface this by mentioning that I haven't got a clue about packaging, so assuming I am a complete idiot wouldn't be inappropriate. Eric discovered back in January that there are a couple of show stoppers to using Publican for Docs. He thought he was going to get the issues fixed in a short time, but that hasn't happened, and it doesn't look like it will happen. Eric developed a workaround by hacking Publican. Unfortunately, using this approach would require everyone participating in Docs to have a hacked Publican, and the hack breaks Publican for other uses. A switch would be nice, and acceptable to the Publican developers, but apparently it would take a lot of effort and there is only one maintainer. Publican does almost everything we need to do between the wiki and the RPM, so we would really like to use it rather than the mish-mash of tools we currently have. There are two problems: 1) Publican names the package incorrectly 2) The .desktop file is handled differently than the reviewers would like Now it seems to me, worst case we could run Publican and then package the HTMLs manually. But since Publican already does most of the heavy lifting, why not simply patch Publican's work after the fact. To this end, I made an attempt to do the following: 1) Unpack the SRPM produced by Publican, The SRPM has 2 files, a tarball and a specfile 2) Rename the tarball, which involves untarring and retarring it 3) Edit the specfile 4) rpmbuild I wrote down the details of what I did at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Converting_Publican_RPM_for_Fedora When I do this, the resulting RPM passes rpmlint, installs correctly, and seems to meet the guidelines. What am I missing? Well, appears to install correctly. A menu entry appears and when I click on it I see release notes. Maybe there are less obvious things going on. As far as the .desktop file, I don't fully understand the issue here. The code produced by Publican appears to be almost identical to that in the packaging guidelines on the wiki and very similar to what it is in the current release notes. David Nally tells me of an entirely different way to deal with the .desktop file but I don't know enough to understand why it is better. So what I'm asking is: 1) Is this totally wrong-headed and we should be looking up another avenue 2) How can this approach be made better 3) Is there some other way Thanks --McD From gayathri.swa at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:23:57 2009 From: gayathri.swa at gmail.com (Gayathri Swaminathan) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:23:57 -0500 Subject: 10 tips for sensible systems administration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This was fantastic! On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 5:09 AM, cornel panceac wrote: > http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-sensiblesysadmin/index.html > > some ideas :) > > -- > Linux counter #213090 > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > -- Gayathri Swaminathan gpgkey: 3EFB3D39 Volunteer, FDP From stickster at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 14:19:44 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:19:44 -0400 Subject: Publican Issues for RNs In-Reply-To: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> References: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> Message-ID: <20090312141944.GJ8753@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 08:57:52AM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote: > Let me preface this by mentioning that I haven't got a clue about packaging, > so assuming I am a complete idiot wouldn't be inappropriate. > > Eric discovered back in January that there are a couple of show stoppers to > using Publican for Docs. He thought he was going to get the issues fixed in > a short time, but that hasn't happened, and it doesn't look like it will > happen. Eric developed a workaround by hacking Publican. Unfortunately, > using this approach would require everyone participating in Docs to have a > hacked Publican, and the hack breaks Publican for other uses. A switch > would be nice, and acceptable to the Publican developers, but apparently it > would take a lot of effort and there is only one maintainer. Can Jeff Fearn or some other knowledgeable person explain here what's needed for that switch? We probably can find some resources for writing that switch, but to do that we need to know what's required. > Publican does almost everything we need to do between the wiki and the RPM, > so we would really like to use it rather than the mish-mash of tools we > currently have. > > There are two problems: > 1) Publican names the package incorrectly > 2) The .desktop file is handled differently than the reviewers would like > > Now it seems to me, worst case we could run Publican and then package the > HTMLs manually. But since Publican already does most of the heavy lifting, > why not simply patch Publican's work after the fact. > > To this end, I made an attempt to do the following: > 1) Unpack the SRPM produced by Publican, The SRPM has 2 files, a tarball and > a specfile > 2) Rename the tarball, which involves untarring and retarring it > 3) Edit the specfile > 4) rpmbuild Publican also has a 'make tar-' target for making just the tarball. > I wrote down the details of what I did at > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Converting_Publican_RPM_for_Fedora > > When I do this, the resulting RPM passes rpmlint, installs correctly, and > seems to meet the guidelines. What am I missing? Well, appears to install > correctly. A menu entry appears and when I click on it I see release notes. > Maybe there are less obvious things going on. > > As far as the .desktop file, I don't fully understand the issue here. The > code produced by Publican appears to be almost identical to that in the > packaging guidelines on the wiki and very similar to what it is in the > current release notes. David Nally tells me of an entirely different way to > deal with the .desktop file but I don't know enough to understand why it is > better. > > So what I'm asking is: > 1) Is this totally wrong-headed and we should be looking up another avenue > 2) How can this approach be made better > 3) Is there some other way It might be helpful to have David or someone to describe the exact issue with the .desktop file here, or just point us to a bug where we can read about it. I'm looking at Publican to see whether we could add the needed stuff to /usr/share/publican/make/Makefile.fedora, which would keep it in the Fedora brand package and away from where it breaks other things that Red Hat might use internally. If that ends up being a bad place to put things -- because the Makefile.templates haven't been included yet at that point, perhaps -- then it would seem relatively easy to also have the Makefile.common provide: ifeq "$(BRAND_MAKE)" "1" include $(COMMON_CONFIG)/make/Makefile.$(BRAND).post endif After the global templates, and we can craft those targets as needed. I'm not completely Makefile-ignorant, fortunately, after having spent some time working on our FDP toolchain. I'll try to help where I can. If Jeff's willing to take a patch like that, or if he can help me understand where's a better place to put these sorts of customizations, I'm up for writing them. We really do not want to have to punt this again for lack of elbow grease. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wb8rcr at arrl.net Thu Mar 12 18:36:08 2009 From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:36:08 -0400 Subject: Publican Issues for RNs References: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> <20090312141944.GJ8753@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <5C15AED2D1CB4A12AFC16A6AAD1C7EE4@Aidan> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul W. Frields" To: Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:19 AM Subject: Re: Publican Issues for RNs > Can Jeff Fearn or some other knowledgeable person explain Unfortunately, I don't know all the players that well. A Jeff did come on to the phone call the other night, and I got the impression that he had something to do with Publican. Eric had indicated that making it a switch would require massive work, although the other night the possibility that it might not be all that bad was raised. There was even talk of putting it into the Fedora template but perhaps that was only wishful thinking. > Publican also has a 'make tar-' target for making just the tarball. Even make srpm leaves the tar laying around, but if it is already willing to have a shot at the spec file why not let it do that work too. > It might be helpful to have David or someone to describe the > exact issue with the .desktop file here, or just point us to a bug Clearly I don't understand this bit at all, and that has to be the next place to dig. Eric was the one who had his srpm refused, so perhaps if Eric, David and myself, or perhaps someone else knowledgable can get together we can sort it out. > I'm looking at Publican to see whether we could > add the needed stuff to /usr/share/publican/make/Makefile.fedora Eric knows exactly what has to happen inside Publican, he just didn't know how to make it optional. > I'm not completely Makefile-ignorant I'm not either, but I'm hardly a maestro. > We really do not want to have to punt this again > for lack of elbow grease. I think even worst case it isn't too bad, but the smoother we can make it the better. Maybe that is selfish -- I want to have it easy next time ;-) --McD From kirk202 at q.com Thu Mar 12 22:24:59 2009 From: kirk202 at q.com (Kirk) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:24:59 -0700 Subject: User Guide's Media & Playing Multimedia pages Message-ID: If/when you have the time could you take a look at the pages below and give me your feedback. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide_-_Playing_Multimedia https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide_-_Media Thanks, -Kirk From stickster at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 23:10:24 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:10:24 -0400 Subject: Publican Issues for RNs In-Reply-To: <5C15AED2D1CB4A12AFC16A6AAD1C7EE4@Aidan> References: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> <20090312141944.GJ8753@localhost.localdomain> <5C15AED2D1CB4A12AFC16A6AAD1C7EE4@Aidan> Message-ID: <20090312225132.GA333@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 02:36:08PM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote: > From: "Paul W. Frields" >> Can Jeff Fearn or some other knowledgeable person explain > > Unfortunately, I don't know all the players that well. A Jeff did come on > to the phone call the other night, and I got the impression that he had > something to do with Publican. Eric had indicated that making it a switch > would require massive work, although the other night the possibility that > it might not be all that bad was raised. There was even talk of putting > it into the Fedora template but perhaps that was only wishful thinking. I'm almost certain that would have been Jeff Fearn, who's the Publican developer; he works at Red Hat in the Brisbane (BNE) office. The more of that stuff we can get on the list, the more people we can potentially rope into helping. I tend to think that phone calls are great for small issues and status reports, but aren't good for bigger ones in terms of the openness and transparency we need for awesome teamwork. >> Publican also has a 'make tar-' target for making just the tarball. > > Even make srpm leaves the tar laying around, but if it is already willing > to have a shot at the spec file why not let it do that work too. > >> It might be helpful to have David or someone to describe the >> exact issue with the .desktop file here, or just point us to a bug > > Clearly I don't understand this bit at all, and that has to be the next > place to dig. Eric was the one who had his srpm refused, so perhaps if > Eric, David and myself, or perhaps someone else knowledgable can get > together we can sort it out. Right on, and please relay the findings here if you can. >> I'm looking at Publican to see whether we could >> add the needed stuff to /usr/share/publican/make/Makefile.fedora > > Eric knows exactly what has to happen inside Publican, he just didn't know > how to make it optional. I'm almost certain that I can make another set of templates and provide an appropriate specfile template that would DTRT, as long as I understand what the issues are. Then it's just a matter of finding out whether Jeff will take the patch. My preference would be to find a solution that can be contained entirely in the publican-fedora package, thus minimizing any effect on the rest of the Publican package. >> I'm not completely Makefile-ignorant > > I'm not either, but I'm hardly a maestro. Between the two of us we could probably be a genius! :-) >> We really do not want to have to punt this again >> for lack of elbow grease. > > I think even worst case it isn't too bad, but the smoother we can make it > the better. Maybe that is selfish -- I want to have it easy next time ;-) I want to have it easy *this* time because last time we said the same thing! :-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tiago at tvieira.com Fri Mar 13 00:01:13 2009 From: tiago at tvieira.com (Tiago Vieira) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 00:01:13 +0000 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <20090313000113.GB13375@obelix.localdomain> Hi there I've been following some fedora's lists and getting into some projects that I believe I can help. Fedora docs is one of the projects that I believe I can do it, and I would be glad to be part of that. My name is Tiago, I'm Brazilian but living in UK for few years. I've done my Bsc. in CS and I'm just to begin my Msc. in Soft. Engineering in Oxford. I'm also taking the RHCE test in April. I like to read code and man pages. :) I would be grateful to be accepted within this group. I also congratulation all of you for the wonderful job you have been doing for the Fedora planet. So, this is my self-introduction. Hope I can help with something in my spare times. Freedom | Friends | Features | First Cheers! -- Tiago (r0xc0rp) Vieira tiagovieira at fedoraproject.org tel:+44-7595223968 Fedora Talk: 5125164 / E9CE CC25 0009 A08D F79E B660 08DA EAF5 47EA 1F16 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wb8rcr at arrl.net Fri Mar 13 00:35:52 2009 From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:35:52 -0400 Subject: Introduction References: <20090313000113.GB13375@obelix.localdomain> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tiago Vieira" To: Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:01 PM Subject: Introduction > Fedora docs is one of the projects that I believe I can do > it, and I would be glad to be part of that. Welcome abord, Tiago. I'm sure you will find this is a great group. Are there specific bits that you think might help you get your feet wet? > My name is Tiago, I'm Brazilian but living in UK How about that Barrichello - fastest in Barcelona today. Gonna be an interesting time in Melbourne. --McD From ccurran at redhat.com Fri Mar 13 00:40:18 2009 From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:40:18 +1000 Subject: Publican Issues for RNs In-Reply-To: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> References: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> Message-ID: <49B9AB72.8040705@redhat.com> John J. McDonough wrote: > > There are two problems: > 1) Publican names the package incorrectly Can you clearly define what the problem is here? Please provide links to emails or documents which support where the misnaming is occurring. As a maintainer of one of the publican sub-packages I would really like to know what is wrong with it so I can work towards a solution. > 2) The .desktop file is handled differently than the reviewers would like > Same here. Can you provide links to the archived emails from these reviewers so I can assist in creating a solution to this. From wb8rcr at arrl.net Fri Mar 13 00:42:36 2009 From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:42:36 -0400 Subject: Publican Issues for RNs References: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan><20090312141944.GJ8753@localhost.localdomain><5C15AED2D1CB4A12AFC16A6AAD1C7EE4@Aidan> <20090312225132.GA333@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <99F1F11F866D49B99C7534C0BAF84457@Aidan> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul W. Frields" To: Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:10 PM Subject: Re: Publican Issues for RNs > The more of that stuff we can get on the list, the more > people we can potentially rope into helping. I tend to > think that phone calls are great for small issues and > status reports, but aren't good for bigger ones in > terms of the openness and transparency we need > for awesome teamwork. I agree and I'm surprised that nobody else has joined in this coversation. OTOH, the phone conversation did get a lot of turf covered quickly, at the expense of limited participation and no record to go back and study. >>> It might be helpful to have David or someone to describe the >>> exact issue with the .desktop file here, or just point us to a bug mhideo just appeared on IRC asking about bug 476471 which seems to be the one Eric was talking about. There are a LOT of comments almost every one of which has a link. This will take more than a minute or two to digest. --McD From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org Fri Mar 13 00:58:51 2009 From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:58:51 -0400 Subject: Publican Issues for RNs In-Reply-To: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> References: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:57 AM, John J. McDonough wrote: > As far as the .desktop file, I don't fully understand the issue here. ?The > code produced by Publican appears to be almost identical to that in the > packaging guidelines on the wiki and very similar to what it is in the > current release notes. ?David Nally tells me of an entirely different way to > deal with the .desktop file but I don't know enough to understand why it is > better. So the spec file you guys have creates a .desktop file, but doesn't do so in the way the packaging guidelines require that it must be done. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#desktop-file-install_usage So, I had the same problem with my first desktop package and read the section immediately preceeding the above section and tried to create it by hand. >From that section: (and emphasis is in the packaging guidelines, I didn't add it): It is not simply enough to just include the .desktop file in the package, one MUST run desktop-file-install OR desktop-file-validate in %install (and have BuildRequires: desktop-file-utils), to help ensure .desktop file safety and spec-compliance. desktop-file-install MUST be used if the package does not install the file or there are changes desired to the .desktop file (such as add/removing categories, etc). From jfearn at redhat.com Fri Mar 13 01:28:35 2009 From: jfearn at redhat.com (Jeff Fearn) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 11:28:35 +1000 Subject: Publican Issues for RNs In-Reply-To: References: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> Message-ID: <49B9B6C3.5000409@redhat.com> On 03/13/2009 10:58 AM, David Nalley wrote: > >> From that section: (and emphasis is in the packaging guidelines, I > didn't add it): > It is not simply enough to just include the .desktop file in the > package, one MUST run desktop-file-install OR desktop-file-validate in > %install (and have BuildRequires: desktop-file-utils), to help ensure > .desktop file safety and spec-compliance. desktop-file-install MUST be > used if the package does not install the file or there are changes > desired to the .desktop file (such as add/removing categories, etc). > These are real bugs, if you open a separate BZ I will fix these issues in a timely manner. The complaint in the original bug is that the .desktop file is embedded in the spec file and is created when the binary rpms are built in Koji. They want the desktop file created when the srpm is created. Doing so breaks the desktop file for other rpm based distros, like Suse, who use different documentation paths. Embedding the desktop file in the spec means that at compile time we can source docdir from the build system creating proper desktop files for the system it is being built on. While I can understand that distros may not care if other distros break or have to do extra work to get a proper desktop file, publican wants to work on these other distros, so the extra work will have to be done by the distro requesting the breaking change. Cheers, Jeff. From jfearn at redhat.com Fri Mar 13 06:49:42 2009 From: jfearn at redhat.com (Jeff Fearn) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:49:42 +1000 Subject: Publican Issues for RNs In-Reply-To: <20090312141944.GJ8753@localhost.localdomain> References: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> <20090312141944.GJ8753@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <49BA0206.20906@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 08:57:52AM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote: >> Let me preface this by mentioning that I haven't got a clue about packaging, >> so assuming I am a complete idiot wouldn't be inappropriate. >> >> Eric discovered back in January that there are a couple of show stoppers to >> using Publican for Docs. He thought he was going to get the issues fixed in >> a short time, but that hasn't happened, and it doesn't look like it will >> happen. Eric developed a workaround by hacking Publican. Unfortunately, >> using this approach would require everyone participating in Docs to have a >> hacked Publican, and the hack breaks Publican for other uses. A switch >> would be nice, and acceptable to the Publican developers, but apparently it >> would take a lot of effort and there is only one maintainer. > > Can Jeff Fearn or some other knowledgeable person explain here what's > needed for that switch? We probably can find some resources for > writing that switch, but to do that we need to know what's required. I haven't looked to deeply in to it. The tar/package name structure is use in many of the templates in the common Makefiles and testing having two naming methods would require some pretty robust analysis. >> Publican does almost everything we need to do between the wiki and the RPM, >> so we would really like to use it rather than the mish-mash of tools we >> currently have. >> >> There are two problems: >> 1) Publican names the package incorrectly For values of incorrectly that are not in the published fedora package naming guidelines AND for values of incorrectly that fail miserably to understand the value-add that having access to multiple versions of product documentation on your desktop offers. Being able to review the fedora 11 release notes on fedora 10 while you are off line is a valuable feature. Having access to the admin guides for multiple versions of fedora on your desktop is a valuable feature, particularly if you have to support multiple versions of fedora. Like say a system administrator. It only takes a little imagination to see how this benefits being able to syndicate content to the desktop. I'm surprised the fedora docs team aren't screaming for this feature. >> 2) The .desktop file is handled differently than the reviewers would like For values of like that ignore compatibility with other distros. >> Now it seems to me, worst case we could run Publican and then package the >> HTMLs manually. But since Publican already does most of the heavy lifting, >> why not simply patch Publican's work after the fact. >> >> To this end, I made an attempt to do the following: >> 1) Unpack the SRPM produced by Publican, The SRPM has 2 files, a tarball and >> a specfile >> 2) Rename the tarball, which involves untarring and retarring it >> 3) Edit the specfile >> 4) rpmbuild > > Publican also has a 'make tar-' target for making just the tarball. If you run make spec- it will make the spec and the tar. BTW fedora packaging requires you to check TAR files in to CVS to get them built in koji, the srpm is just used for package review, after that you have to check the spec and tar file in to CVS, tag it and build it in koji. Much of the benefit of getting a source rpm is lost at that point. If you can't get a number in a package name I seriously doubt you will be allowed to push source rpms in to koji. >> I wrote down the details of what I did at >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Converting_Publican_RPM_for_Fedora I thought this was pretty neat, but it's probably easier just to run make spec and use the sources in tmp/rpm. >> When I do this, the resulting RPM passes rpmlint, installs correctly, and >> seems to meet the guidelines. What am I missing? Well, appears to install >> correctly. A menu entry appears and when I click on it I see release notes. >> Maybe there are less obvious things going on. >> >> As far as the .desktop file, I don't fully understand the issue here. The >> code produced by Publican appears to be almost identical to that in the >> packaging guidelines on the wiki and very similar to what it is in the >> current release notes. David Nally tells me of an entirely different way to >> deal with the .desktop file but I don't know enough to understand why it is >> better. >> >> So what I'm asking is: >> 1) Is this totally wrong-headed and we should be looking up another avenue >> 2) How can this approach be made better >> 3) Is there some other way > > It might be helpful to have David or someone to describe the exact > issue with the .desktop file here, or just point us to a bug where we > can read about it. I'm looking at Publican to see whether we could > add the needed stuff to /usr/share/publican/make/Makefile.fedora, > which would keep it in the Fedora brand package and away from where it > breaks other things that Red Hat might use internally. It would mean other brands being used on fedora wouldn't be usable for fedora packages. > If that ends up being a bad place to put things -- because the > Makefile.templates haven't been included yet at that point, perhaps -- > then it would seem relatively easy to also have the Makefile.common > provide: > > ifeq "$(BRAND_MAKE)" "1" > include $(COMMON_CONFIG)/make/Makefile.$(BRAND).post > endif > > After the global templates, and we can craft those targets as needed. > I'm not completely Makefile-ignorant, fortunately, after having spent > some time working on our FDP toolchain. I'll try to help where I > can. If Jeff's willing to take a patch like that, or if he can help > me understand where's a better place to put these sorts of > customizations, I'm up for writing them. We really do not want to > have to punt this again for lack of elbow grease. > We use the double colon for targets, e.g. foo::, so you can't over ride them, you can only add pre/post processing to them. You could add new targets that depend on old targets or just cut, paste and rename existing templates, then change the behaviour. Really though, by doing this you are removing what is, IMHO, the biggest value-add of packaging the docs in the first place, the ability to have a library of content at your fingertips. Huge price to pay just to get rid of a number. Cheers, Jeff. From tiago at tvieira.com Fri Mar 13 10:34:56 2009 From: tiago at tvieira.com (Tiago Vieira) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:34:56 +0000 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <20090313000113.GB13375@obelix.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090313103456.GC4054@obelix.localdomain> On (12/03/09 20:35), John J. McDonough wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tiago Vieira" > >> Fedora docs is one of the projects that I believe I can do >> it, and I would be glad to be part of that. > > Welcome abord, Tiago. I'm sure you will find this is a great group. Are > there specific bits that you think might help you get your feet wet? > Thanks John. :) I didn't think in any specific bit. I'm doing a review on lots of things first before I get my hands dirty. I'm sure I will pop up soon with some ideas, I'm excited to be part of this project. >> My name is Tiago, I'm Brazilian but living in UK > > How about that Barrichello - fastest in Barcelona today. Gonna be an > interesting time in Melbourne. > Yup! But I suport Massa, I believe he will beat Hamilton. That last race in Brazil will be in Massa's head for this whole season. I bet on that. :) -- Tiago (r0xc0rp) Vieira tiagovieira at fedoraproject.org tel:+44-7595223968 Fedora Talk: 5125164 / E9CE CC25 0009 A08D F79E B660 08DA EAF5 47EA 1F16 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 12:42:47 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 08:42:47 -0400 Subject: Publican Issues for RNs In-Reply-To: <49BA0206.20906@redhat.com> References: <5AB246B302A143F7938E8CFD0A588F87@Aidan> <20090312141944.GJ8753@localhost.localdomain> <49BA0206.20906@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20090313124247.GH9153@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 04:49:42PM +1000, Jeff Fearn wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 08:57:52AM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote: >>> Let me preface this by mentioning that I haven't got a clue about packaging, >>> so assuming I am a complete idiot wouldn't be inappropriate. >>> >>> Eric discovered back in January that there are a couple of show stoppers to >>> using Publican for Docs. He thought he was going to get the issues fixed in >>> a short time, but that hasn't happened, and it doesn't look like it will >>> happen. Eric developed a workaround by hacking Publican. Unfortunately, >>> using this approach would require everyone participating in Docs to have a >>> hacked Publican, and the hack breaks Publican for other uses. A switch >>> would be nice, and acceptable to the Publican developers, but apparently it >>> would take a lot of effort and there is only one maintainer. >> >> Can Jeff Fearn or some other knowledgeable person explain here what's >> needed for that switch? We probably can find some resources for >> writing that switch, but to do that we need to know what's required. > > I haven't looked to deeply in to it. The tar/package name structure is > use in many of the templates in the common Makefiles and testing having > two naming methods would require some pretty robust analysis. > >>> Publican does almost everything we need to do between the wiki and the RPM, >>> so we would really like to use it rather than the mish-mash of tools we >>> currently have. >>> >>> There are two problems: >>> 1) Publican names the package incorrectly > > For values of incorrectly that are not in the published fedora package > naming guidelines AND for values of incorrectly that fail miserably to > understand the value-add that having access to multiple versions of > product documentation on your desktop offers. > > Being able to review the fedora 11 release notes on fedora 10 while you > are off line is a valuable feature. > > Having access to the admin guides for multiple versions of fedora on your > desktop is a valuable feature, particularly if you have to support > multiple versions of fedora. Like say a system administrator. > > It only takes a little imagination to see how this benefits being able to > syndicate content to the desktop. I'm surprised the fedora docs team > aren't screaming for this feature. Re: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=476471 , I assume. Don't we have version names in other packages, such as in the case of compatibility libraries? Like libsoup22, for instance? It seems to me there's a precedent for this. Added my comment to the bug FWIW. >>> 2) The .desktop file is handled differently than the reviewers would like > > For values of like that ignore compatibility with other distros. We could simply provide a patch or separate .desktop file, I suppose. Typically no independent, cross-distro upstream would take a patch that breaks other distros in favor of Fedora. At the same time, Fedora standards are against carrying long-term patches, in favor of working with upstream. If that's an unresolvable conflict, might be a matter to take to the Packaging committee, if nothing else asking for them to write an exception into the policy. >>> Now it seems to me, worst case we could run Publican and then package the >>> HTMLs manually. But since Publican already does most of the heavy lifting, >>> why not simply patch Publican's work after the fact. >>> >>> To this end, I made an attempt to do the following: >>> 1) Unpack the SRPM produced by Publican, The SRPM has 2 files, a tarball and >>> a specfile >>> 2) Rename the tarball, which involves untarring and retarring it >>> 3) Edit the specfile >>> 4) rpmbuild >> >> Publican also has a 'make tar-' target for making just the tarball. > > If you run make spec- it will make the spec and the tar. > > BTW fedora packaging requires you to check TAR files in to CVS to get > them built in koji, the srpm is just used for package review, after that > you have to check the spec and tar file in to CVS, tag it and build it in > koji. Much of the benefit of getting a source rpm is lost at that point. > If you can't get a number in a package name I seriously doubt you will be > allowed to push source rpms in to koji. Right, but you can do a "cvs-import.sh " to do this, which I have done repeatedly for previous fedora-release-notes packages. However, if the built-in .spec or some contents of the .tar aren't already in the form you want them, that's not going to be advantageous. >>> I wrote down the details of what I did at >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Converting_Publican_RPM_for_Fedora > > I thought this was pretty neat, but it's probably easier just to run make > spec and use the sources in tmp/rpm. > >>> When I do this, the resulting RPM passes rpmlint, installs correctly, and >>> seems to meet the guidelines. What am I missing? Well, appears to install >>> correctly. A menu entry appears and when I click on it I see release notes. >>> Maybe there are less obvious things going on. >>> >>> As far as the .desktop file, I don't fully understand the issue here. The >>> code produced by Publican appears to be almost identical to that in the >>> packaging guidelines on the wiki and very similar to what it is in the >>> current release notes. David Nally tells me of an entirely different way to >>> deal with the .desktop file but I don't know enough to understand why it is >>> better. >>> >>> So what I'm asking is: >>> 1) Is this totally wrong-headed and we should be looking up another avenue >>> 2) How can this approach be made better >>> 3) Is there some other way >> >> It might be helpful to have David or someone to describe the exact >> issue with the .desktop file here, or just point us to a bug where we >> can read about it. I'm looking at Publican to see whether we could >> add the needed stuff to /usr/share/publican/make/Makefile.fedora, >> which would keep it in the Fedora brand package and away from where it >> breaks other things that Red Hat might use internally. > > It would mean other brands being used on fedora wouldn't be usable for > fedora packages. I see your point. >> If that ends up being a bad place to put things -- because the >> Makefile.templates haven't been included yet at that point, perhaps -- >> then it would seem relatively easy to also have the Makefile.common >> provide: >> >> ifeq "$(BRAND_MAKE)" "1" >> include $(COMMON_CONFIG)/make/Makefile.$(BRAND).post >> endif >> >> After the global templates, and we can craft those targets as needed. >> I'm not completely Makefile-ignorant, fortunately, after having spent >> some time working on our FDP toolchain. I'll try to help where I >> can. If Jeff's willing to take a patch like that, or if he can help >> me understand where's a better place to put these sorts of >> customizations, I'm up for writing them. We really do not want to >> have to punt this again for lack of elbow grease. >> > > We use the double colon for targets, e.g. foo::, so you can't over ride > them, you can only add pre/post processing to them. You could add new > targets that depend on old targets or just cut, paste and rename existing > templates, then change the behaviour. > > Really though, by doing this you are removing what is, IMHO, the biggest > value-add of packaging the docs in the first place, the ability to have a > library of content at your fingertips. Huge price to pay just to get rid > of a number. Yeah, that's clearer to me now. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Mar 14 21:29:50 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 02:59:50 +0530 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps Message-ID: <49BC21CE.6060406@fedoraproject.org> Hi I don't think is actually a big dirty secret but perhaps we can quick through together some steps for a end user who wants to do so? I do see some forums posts rarely from users asking for this. Who wants to step up? http://blogs.computerworld.com/linuxs_dirty_little_secret_uninstall Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 21:26:43 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:26:43 -0400 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps In-Reply-To: <49BC21CE.6060406@fedoraproject.org> References: <49BC21CE.6060406@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20090314212643.GD19452@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 02:59:50AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > I don't think is actually a big dirty secret but perhaps we can quick > through together some steps for a end user who wants to do so? I do see > some forums posts rarely from users asking for this. Who wants to step up? > > http://blogs.computerworld.com/linuxs_dirty_little_secret_uninstall You're a little late; I already wrote it and posted a comment to that blog. ;-) https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_uninstall_Fedora -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mike at vegasitpros.com Sat Mar 14 21:30:54 2009 From: mike at vegasitpros.com (mike at vegasitpros.com) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 21:30:54 +0000 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps Message-ID: <1988097136-1237066268-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-807250348-@bxe1231.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Fdisk /dev/sda When prompted enter "d" then "o" then "w" to write changes to disk. The os is now removed Ditt ------Original Message------ From: Rahul Sundaram Sender: fedora-docs-list-bounces at redhat.com To: For participants of the Documentation Project ReplyTo: For participants of the Documentation Project Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps Sent: Mar 14, 2009 2:29 PM Hi I don't think is actually a big dirty secret but perhaps we can quick through together some steps for a end user who wants to do so? I do see some forums posts rarely from users asking for this. Who wants to step up? http://blogs.computerworld.com/linuxs_dirty_little_secret_uninstall Rahul -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list at redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From mike at vegasitpros.com Sat Mar 14 21:40:56 2009 From: mike at vegasitpros.com (mike at vegasitpros.com) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 21:40:56 +0000 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps Message-ID: <458790845-1237066871-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1390447161-@bxe1231.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Why would anyone with a rational frame of mind want to uninstall fedora? So they could spend thousands of hard earned dollars to get the equivalent functions with windows? It must be the full moon... ------Original Message------ From: Rahul Sundaram Sender: fedora-docs-list-bounces at redhat.com To: For participants of the Documentation Project ReplyTo: For participants of the Documentation Project Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps Sent: Mar 14, 2009 2:29 PM Hi I don't think is actually a big dirty secret but perhaps we can quick through together some steps for a end user who wants to do so? I do see some forums posts rarely from users asking for this. Who wants to step up? http://blogs.computerworld.com/linuxs_dirty_little_secret_uninstall Rahul -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list at redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From stickster at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 21:50:33 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:50:33 -0400 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps In-Reply-To: <458790845-1237066871-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1390447161-@bxe1231.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <458790845-1237066871-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1390447161-@bxe1231.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <20090314215033.GF19452@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 09:40:56PM +0000, mike at vegasitpros.com wrote: > Why would anyone with a rational frame of mind want to uninstall fedora? So they could spend thousands of hard earned dollars to get the equivalent functions with windows? > > It must be the full moon... ;-) Agreed, but as I mentioned in a tweet, Fedora cares enough about your freedom to let you choose not to have it, if you want! -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mike at vegasitpros.com Sat Mar 14 22:27:01 2009 From: mike at vegasitpros.com (mike at vegasitpros.com) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 22:27:01 +0000 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps In-Reply-To: <20090314215033.GF19452@localhost.localdomain> References: <458790845-1237066871-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1390447161-@bxe1231.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><20090314215033.GF19452@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1373004292-1237069636-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2011562199-@bxe1231.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Point taken. I'll add steps to uninstall from a dual boot system, as well as warnings to back up data. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Paul W. Frields" Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:50:33 To: Subject: Re: Uninstall Fedora - steps -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list at redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list From stickster at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 22:31:38 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:31:38 -0400 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps In-Reply-To: <1373004292-1237069636-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2011562199-@bxe1231.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <20090314215033.GF19452@localhost.localdomain> <1373004292-1237069636-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2011562199-@bxe1231.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <20090314223138.GH19452@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 10:27:01PM +0000, mike at vegasitpros.com wrote: > Point taken. I'll add steps to uninstall from a dual boot system, as > well as warnings to back up data. I think I had both of those on the page already -- have you had a chance to take a look? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_uninstall_Fedora -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From linux at blogmethat.net Sat Mar 14 23:57:25 2009 From: linux at blogmethat.net (Andrew Jamison) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 19:57:25 -0400 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps In-Reply-To: <458790845-1237066871-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1390447161-@bxe1231.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <458790845-1237066871-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1390447161-@bxe1231.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <49BC4465.2080302@blogmethat.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 mike at vegasitpros.com wrote: > Why would anyone with a rational frame of mind want to uninstall fedora? So they could spend thousands of hard earned dollars to get the equivalent functions with windows? > > It must be the full moon... > Believe it or not some people have legitimate reasons for removing fedora though I personaly can not think of any it is not fair to say that no one should ever have a reason. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iJwEAQECAAYFAkm8RGUACgkQh7SjI2F18kOGmQP+IpVELBUu/p7eN1pa8DsNw6wO krooPgCXqPAcVq6o4u/tHbtBIih66OR2aJNghC5Ams2XMZiOm8Ay9sS9Jn/AOJPX jNyI6qdB6u4d8Fkk8d4R4bXW+ic6woF/LTXcdBn4PhsuvXEj3LhMYwRCeRXaJ9kz T6A8EhGEKsyPsMCiVBU= =Z8Yr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From danielsmw at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 16:51:46 2009 From: danielsmw at gmail.com (Matthew Daniels) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 12:51:46 -0400 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps In-Reply-To: <20090314212643.GD19452@localhost.localdomain> References: <49BC21CE.6060406@fedoraproject.org> <20090314212643.GD19452@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <767C800C-3EB1-4CDA-A28D-227CEAE0BCA9@gmail.com> On Mar 14, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > You're a little late; I already wrote it and posted a comment to that > blog. ;-) > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_uninstall_Fedora I know it won't apply to as many users, but a lot of people are dual- booting Linux with OS X, especially college students. I'd be happy to add instructions for restoring OS X systems if it's okay with you, Paul. - Matthew From stickster at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 22:49:14 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 18:49:14 -0400 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps In-Reply-To: <767C800C-3EB1-4CDA-A28D-227CEAE0BCA9@gmail.com> References: <49BC21CE.6060406@fedoraproject.org> <20090314212643.GD19452@localhost.localdomain> <767C800C-3EB1-4CDA-A28D-227CEAE0BCA9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Matthew Daniels wrote: > On Mar 14, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> >> You're a little late; I already wrote it and posted a comment to that >> blog. ;-) >> >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_uninstall_Fedora > > I know it won't apply to as many users, but a lot of people are dual-booting > Linux with OS X, especially college students. ?I'd be happy to add > instructions for restoring OS X systems if it's okay with you, Paul. Are you kidding? I think that sounds *fantastic*! :-) Paul From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 23:33:47 2009 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 05:03:47 +0530 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps Message-ID: <78323d480903151633w3fe2a1cbn8e97e339bf7438e6@mail.gmail.com> mike at vegasitpros.com wrote: > Why would anyone with a rational frame of mind want to uninstall fedora? So they could spend thousands of hard earned dollars to get the equivalent functions with windows? To use FreeBSD testing as primary OS... what else? :) Best A. Mani -- A. Mani Member, Cal. Math. Soc From kieranian2001 at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 12:31:17 2009 From: kieranian2001 at gmail.com (kieran Moore) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 12:31:17 +0000 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <5ca466ce0903160531y7f1bc195p97beceb9373dca7@mail.gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Use GnuPG with Firefox : http://getfiregpg.org (Version: 0.7.5) hQENA40kzwkMZ/ZmEAP8DemgX4bJRGejXcvuBvsrKNqfL2DXHAtinY8t5vAo9McO OKZvOp6+Lbfr9j36qLN69STMYfwOPGb5pu8f3XKD+1rItWTBt+dJ/bmyRPReXxEl qYHHAykgZzo3CDAq4EMeuWwjtM2eiWyQXIEG7+XzGrf3BZbTtrJzxjqXjPWgScUD +O/1lD/jOwmOIwXuR+Oi1U/V+ByQCDbtOlQPyhjmsAgpfAi/1B+NqGqDC6e8N2WZ IeA9ZNY8O93iXUK/XDmY9FKTIm8CMyD8OAa2gKjnJK7Cll66Vb3WwDotbeTjY8pm azFp4EJ7EILmnBKUMg8WEaJ81pkL6CKMqjBjMjz2HNDSRwERCYRf61V8AVTMdIg+ rkLkdw2Pi1oAjEtMfIH5HqSkTYyTUqX3Z8eknOoOr//zlSZYtDjvoPCRjsYuKZ+m xgeRLzcoV/iY =MwIn -----END PGP MESSAGE----- Hi, I'm posting my self-introduction. I'm interested in environmental management and also in e-Learning. I've been reading the list for a while and I'm hoping to help with the documentation for this or the next Fedora release. I've experience with using Fedora 4 & 5. I have the 11 alpha on my laptop. I have a Red Hat bugzilla. I'll complete the things to do list gradually. Email: kieranian2001 at gmail.com Kieran Moore GPG Fingerprint: C389 C993 99E0 657D F9CD 0C31 DCC5 3BF7 2A59 A743 -- Kieran Moore From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 12:47:55 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 08:47:55 -0400 Subject: Docs team IRC log 20090312 In-Reply-To: <20090312020244.GA5003@calliope.phig.org> References: <20090312020244.GA5003@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <20090316124755.GE4115@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 07:02:44PM -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Wiki formatted: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meetings:Docs_IRC_log_20090312 I apologize for this summary being so late to the list, but here goes: Summary for Docs meeting, 2009-03-12: ------------------------------------- * Next item due for F11 release cycle: 2009-03-23, Beta one sheet release notes on wiki. TASKS: (jjmcd to coordinate) * Make new wiki page from the Alpha one-sheet * Check features and beats for content to mention or include * Post to fedora-devel-list with notification to community * Complete editing by 22 March * Group discussed how to deal with discrepancy in the way Publican handles SRPM building vs. Fedora packaging guidelines. * jjmcd has a wiki page with one attempt at hacking the process: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Converting_Publican_RPM_for_Fedora * Patches to the Fedora-specific Makefile might work, someone would need to write them * There are still unresolved questions about parallel installable docs for different releases (i.e. installing X_Guide_for_F10 and X_Guide_for_F11 at the same time) TASKS: (mdious) * Check to see who was tasked with finding out where and why packaging guidelines for Red Hat and Fedora are different * Paul explained current release notes process as reflected on the schedule: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-March/msg00021.html http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html * Paul will be on vacation April 12-21, during the critical time for F11 Preview release notes. TASKS: (All Docs team members) * Read and understand the schedule and process, and ask questions on the list if anything's unclear -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org Tue Mar 17 08:19:30 2009 From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:19:30 +0800 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps In-Reply-To: References: <49BC21CE.6060406@fedoraproject.org> <20090314212643.GD19452@localhost.localdomain> <767C800C-3EB1-4CDA-A28D-227CEAE0BCA9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1237277970.5918.47.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2009-03-15 at 18:49 -0400, Paul Frields wrote: > On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Matthew Daniels wrote: > > On Mar 14, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> > >> You're a little late; I already wrote it and posted a comment to that > >> blog. ;-) > >> > >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_uninstall_Fedora > > > > I know it won't apply to as many users, but a lot of people are dual-booting > > Linux with OS X, especially college students. I'd be happy to add > > instructions for restoring OS X systems if it's okay with you, Paul. > > Are you kidding? I think that sounds *fantastic*! :-) > > Paul > - Fedora - - the easiest operating system to uninstall - ________________________________________________________________________ Basil Mohamed Gohar abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org www.basilgohar.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 13:26:32 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:26:32 -0400 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps In-Reply-To: <1237277970.5918.47.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <49BC21CE.6060406@fedoraproject.org> <20090314212643.GD19452@localhost.localdomain> <767C800C-3EB1-4CDA-A28D-227CEAE0BCA9@gmail.com> <1237277970.5918.47.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090317132632.GE17102@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 04:19:30PM +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote: > On Sun, 2009-03-15 at 18:49 -0400, Paul Frields wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Matthew Daniels wrote: > > > On Mar 14, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > >> > > >> You're a little late; I already wrote it and posted a comment to that > > >> blog. ;-) > > >> > > >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_uninstall_Fedora > > > > > > I know it won't apply to as many users, but a lot of people are dual-booting > > > Linux with OS X, especially college students. I'd be happy to add > > > instructions for restoring OS X systems if it's okay with you, Paul. > > > > Are you kidding? I think that sounds *fantastic*! :-) > > > > Paul > > > - Fedora - > - the easiest operating system to uninstall - Haha! Well, maybe that's not the *best* way to encourage people to use our OS, but we certainly try not to make it difficult, right? ;-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org Tue Mar 17 16:14:30 2009 From: abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org (Basil Mohamed Gohar) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 00:14:30 +0800 Subject: Uninstall Fedora - steps In-Reply-To: <20090317132632.GE17102@localhost.localdomain> References: <49BC21CE.6060406@fedoraproject.org> <20090314212643.GD19452@localhost.localdomain> <767C800C-3EB1-4CDA-A28D-227CEAE0BCA9@gmail.com> <1237277970.5918.47.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20090317132632.GE17102@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1237306470.5042.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-03-17 at 09:26 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 04:19:30PM +0800, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote: > > - Fedora - > > - the easiest operating system to uninstall - > > Haha! Well, maybe that's not the *best* way to encourage people to > use our OS, but we certainly try not to make it difficult, right? ;-) I think it goes rather far (not the slogan, but the idea of helping people uninstall) to make the point that we love freedom above else when it comes to software (and hopefully other things as well). So, Fedora, and most other GNU/Linux distributions, don't artificially put roadblocks in the way of ones use of their own computer, or even the operating system itself. There are even other proprietary companies that fully respect if you want to stop using their product, and they allow for that. It's monolithic, proprietary, and above all else, arrogant companies (not just one) that want to control what a consumer does with their product, the terms, conditions, and so on, that we oppose. It's all the more amazing that when you pay for a product, it usually comes with more restrictions on its use than when you use one that is free-of-cost and also free as in freedom. I...don't know where all that came from. Somehow, someone pushed a button and I couldn't turn it off until now. Don't worry Paul, it wasn't you! The button was pushed after I discovered that I didn't have to just accept the options presented to me as I grew up. ________________________________________________________________________ Basil Mohamed Gohar abu_hurayrah at hidayahonline.org www.basilgohar.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From eric at christensenplace.us Wed Mar 18 17:07:14 2009 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:07:14 -0400 Subject: Fedora Docs Meeting Reminder Message-ID: <1237396034.12939.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> REMINDER: There will be a Fedora Docs Meeting today at 2359 UTC. The agenda can be found at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Steering_Committee_meetings -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org Wed Mar 18 23:09:07 2009 From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:09:07 -0400 Subject: Kudos to RH Docs people Message-ID: Perhaps there was some announcement that I missed over the past few weeks as I have been pretty busy. I started looking in earnest this afternoon at the Install Guide and saw something caused me a bit of concern. Rudi has been doing a ton of work on the Install Guide and when I looked at the git log I noticed repeated entries like: Merged $foo from RHEL IG. This set off alarms in my head as I 'KNEW' RH docs were OPL + the NC clause. I went to confirm this with the docs and noticed the changelog on the RHEL Install Guide for 1/5/09 noted the following change: revised Legal Notice, removed restrictions See: http://www.redhat.com/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/5/html/Installation_Guide/appe-Publican-Revision_History.html Kudos to the RH Docs people for being bold and using a free license. From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 19 03:03:15 2009 From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 23:03:15 -0400 Subject: PPC in the Install Guide Message-ID: So Rudi has been doing a ton of work on the Install Guide and we were talking tonight about the status of PPC. Currently we have a note in the IG where PPC installation differs. This is a bit cumbersome and for a few other reasons wanted to seek the 'Wisdom of the List' in how this should be handled. Our options are: 1. Continue with the exceptions process 2. Adopt the RHEL solution - which is to have a separate section in the same document that transcludes a lot of the identical content.) 3. Drop PPC from the Install Guide 3a: Drop PPC from the Install Guide and bring it back in F12 if there is an uprising calling for our heads. 3b. Drop PPC from the Install Guide and Create a PPC IG 3c. Drop PPC from the IG and let a PPC-SIG pick it up So discussing it amongst ourselves we both seem to like the 3a solution (Drop content and revert if there is an uprising). Our justification is: 1. PPC on pre-intel Macs is really aging hardware, so we are likely talking about when to drop rather than if. 2. PPC hardware is hard to come by. Currently no one working on the IG has PPC hardware in their possession, though Rudi says he can lay his hands on a machine if need be. 3. Removing the exception notes makes the document a cleaner read 4. It's less work. Barring any justifications to the contrary or directives from one of our fearless leaders by CoB on Friday Mar 20th this will be the we will be the approach for the F11 IG. Comments and flames welcome From stickster at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 12:55:39 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:55:39 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Google Summer of Code 2009: We're in!] Message-ID: <20090319125539.GC26147@localhost.localdomain> In case Docs team members hadn't seen it, here's a call for mentors and reviewers from Fedora for Google Summer of Code. Since many of you Docs team members are good at working with others and writing clearly, students could benefit from your help! Please consider helping a student get some real-life experience with FOSS through the Fedora Project. Paul ----- Forwarded message from "Patrick W. Barnes" ----- From: "Patrick W. Barnes" To: Development discussions related to Fedora Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:06:07 -0500 Subject: Google Summer of Code 2009: We're in! X-BeenThere: fedora-devel-list at redhat.com We have been accepted to participate in this year's Google Summer of Code. We are now seeking additional volunteers to serve as mentors or proposal reviewers. This is light duty, and your service would be a great benefit to our community and to the students you may help. If you are willing to participate with us, please create a profile at: http://socghop.appspot.com/ Then, apply to become a mentor with us: http://socghop.appspot.com/mentor/request/google/gsoc2009/redhat More resources can be found here: http://groups.google.com/group/redhat-summer Thanks in advance! -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ All messages cryptographically signed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP -- -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From laubersm at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 19 13:15:22 2009 From: laubersm at fedoraproject.org (Susan Lauber) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:15:22 -0400 Subject: PPC in the Install Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 11:03 PM, David Nalley wrote: > So Rudi has been doing a ton of work on the Install Guide and we were > talking tonight about the status of PPC. Very cool stuff! Thanks Rudi. > > Currently we have a note in the IG where PPC installation differs. > This is a bit cumbersome and for a few other reasons wanted to seek > the 'Wisdom of the List' in how this should be handled. > > Our options are: > 1. Continue with the exceptions process > 2. Adopt the RHEL solution - which is to have a separate section in > the same document that transcludes a lot of the identical content.) > 3. Drop PPC from the Install Guide > 3a: Drop PPC from the Install Guide and bring it back in F12 if there > is an uprising calling for our heads. > 3b. Drop PPC from the Install Guide and Create a PPC IG > 3c. Drop PPC from the IG and let a PPC-SIG pick it up > > So discussing it amongst ourselves we both seem to like the 3a > solution (Drop content and revert if there is an uprising). Our > justification is: > 1. PPC on pre-intel Macs is really aging hardware, so we are likely > talking about when to drop rather than if. > 2. PPC hardware is hard to come by. Currently no one working on the IG > has PPC hardware in their possession, though Rudi says he can lay his > hands on a machine if need be. > 3. Removing the exception notes makes the document a cleaner read > 4. It's less work. Those sound like fair reasons to drop it from the formal and translated IG. I can support 3a. I have a question about option 3c though - do you mean as a guide in XML with requirements of translation and meeting release cycles? Or do you mean in any format they so desire? If the later, I think we can help a little rather than just drop the content. How hard is it to put the current (F10) version into a HOWTO on the wiki? This way it is EASY for anyone (SIG or user) to copy and update to F11 if they so choose. I think it much more likely to get done at all if the structure is already there and done correctly if the users do it themselves. Don't forget to tell the SIG it exists ;) -Susan -- Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS) Lauber System Solutions, Inc. http://www.laubersolutions.com gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE 4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974 From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 19 13:28:47 2009 From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:28:47 -0400 Subject: PPC in the Install Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Susan Lauber wrote: > On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 11:03 PM, David Nalley > wrote: >> So Rudi has been doing a ton of work on the Install Guide and we were >> talking tonight about the status of PPC. > > Very cool stuff! ?Thanks Rudi. > >> >> Currently we have a note in the IG where PPC installation differs. >> This is a bit cumbersome and for a few other reasons wanted to seek >> the 'Wisdom of the List' in how this should be handled. >> >> Our options are: >> 1. Continue with the exceptions process >> 2. Adopt the RHEL solution - which is to have a separate section in >> the same document that transcludes a lot of the identical content.) >> 3. Drop PPC from the Install Guide >> 3a: Drop PPC from the Install Guide and bring it back in F12 if there >> is an uprising calling for our heads. >> 3b. Drop PPC from the Install Guide and Create a PPC IG >> 3c. Drop PPC from the IG and let a PPC-SIG pick it up >> >> So discussing it amongst ourselves we both seem to like the 3a >> solution (Drop content and revert if there is an uprising). Our >> justification is: >> 1. PPC on pre-intel Macs is really aging hardware, so we are likely >> talking about when to drop rather than if. >> 2. PPC hardware is hard to come by. Currently no one working on the IG >> has PPC hardware in their possession, though Rudi says he can lay his >> hands on a machine if need be. >> 3. Removing the exception notes makes the document a cleaner read >> 4. It's less work. > > Those sound like fair reasons to drop it from the formal and translated IG. > I can support 3a. > > I have a question about option 3c though - do you mean as a guide in > XML with requirements of translation and meeting release cycles? ?Or > do you mean in any format they so desire? ?If the later, I think we > can help a little rather than just drop the content. I don't care how they do it, not my place to tell those who want to do the work how they should do it. > How hard is it to put the current (F10) version into a HOWTO on the wiki? So to my knowledge the install guide hasn't lived on the wiki ever. This means we'd need to do a dump from XML (or rendered format) to wiki. While I am not inherently opposed to this, I'd want to know that a SIG was going to pick it up first before we go to those lengths. Keep in mind the F10 IG is around 70 printed pages (from a single html page). F11 IG that I just printed is currently 116 pages. So we are talking about a ton of additional content in the wiki if we spawn a separate document. If they are going to do a short howto it's probably easier to just do so by creating anew. > This way it is EASY for anyone (SIG or user) to copy and update to F11 > if they so choose. ?I think it much more likely to get done at all if > the structure is already there and done correctly if the users do it > themselves. ?Don't forget to tell the SIG it exists ;) > I'll work on getting them up to speed shortly. From laubersm at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 19 13:43:24 2009 From: laubersm at fedoraproject.org (Susan Lauber) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:43:24 -0400 Subject: PPC in the Install Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:28 AM, David Nalley wrote: > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Susan Lauber > wrote: >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 11:03 PM, David Nalley >> wrote: >>> So Rudi has been doing a ton of work on the Install Guide and we were >>> talking tonight about the status of PPC. >> >> Very cool stuff! ?Thanks Rudi. >> >>> >>> Currently we have a note in the IG where PPC installation differs. >>> This is a bit cumbersome and for a few other reasons wanted to seek >>> the 'Wisdom of the List' in how this should be handled. >>> >>> Our options are: >>> 1. Continue with the exceptions process >>> 2. Adopt the RHEL solution - which is to have a separate section in >>> the same document that transcludes a lot of the identical content.) >>> 3. Drop PPC from the Install Guide >>> 3a: Drop PPC from the Install Guide and bring it back in F12 if there >>> is an uprising calling for our heads. >>> 3b. Drop PPC from the Install Guide and Create a PPC IG >>> 3c. Drop PPC from the IG and let a PPC-SIG pick it up >>> >>> So discussing it amongst ourselves we both seem to like the 3a >>> solution (Drop content and revert if there is an uprising). Our >>> justification is: >>> 1. PPC on pre-intel Macs is really aging hardware, so we are likely >>> talking about when to drop rather than if. >>> 2. PPC hardware is hard to come by. Currently no one working on the IG >>> has PPC hardware in their possession, though Rudi says he can lay his >>> hands on a machine if need be. >>> 3. Removing the exception notes makes the document a cleaner read >>> 4. It's less work. >> >> Those sound like fair reasons to drop it from the formal and translated IG. >> I can support 3a. >> >> I have a question about option 3c though - do you mean as a guide in >> XML with requirements of translation and meeting release cycles? ?Or >> do you mean in any format they so desire? ?If the later, I think we >> can help a little rather than just drop the content. > > I don't care how they do it, not my place to tell those who want to do > the work how they should do it. > >> How hard is it to put the current (F10) version into a HOWTO on the wiki? > > So to my knowledge the install guide hasn't lived on the wiki ever. > This means we'd need to do a dump from XML (or rendered format) to > wiki. While I am not inherently opposed to this, I'd want to know that > a SIG was going to pick it up first before we go to those lengths. > Keep in mind the F10 IG is around 70 printed pages (from a single html > page). F11 IG that I just printed is currently 116 pages. So we are > talking about a ton of additional content in the wiki if we spawn a > separate document. If they are going to do a short howto it's probably > easier to just do so ?by creating anew. Ahh, I think what I missed so early this morning is that the PPC info is currently scattered through the IG. And you said that. At least twice :) This is not as simple as pulling a chapter or even just a list of bullet point differences out into a wiki page. That does make a difference. I was never thinking of the whole IG on the wiki - just the differences for PPC. A short howto would be easier from scratch. Thanks, Susan >> This way it is EASY for anyone (SIG or user) to copy and update to F11 >> if they so choose. ?I think it much more likely to get done at all if >> the structure is already there and done correctly if the users do it >> themselves. ?Don't forget to tell the SIG it exists ;) >> > I'll work on getting them up to speed shortly. > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > -- Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS) Lauber System Solutions, Inc. http://www.laubersolutions.com gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE 4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974 From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 15:22:02 2009 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:52:02 +0530 Subject: Wiki Markup Comparison Message-ID: <78323d480903190822q2e8a65d9i208895174a6cda6b@mail.gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 See http://www.wikicreole.org/wiki/Reasoning for a good comparison of all types of wiki markup They have good arguments for their choice of 'least confusing' markup. Best A. Mani -- A. Mani Member, Cal. Math. Soc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEUEARECAAYFAknCY5AACgkQunMISzvdfU6OYwCYki6ZD7m3sJf2yLVowPIfWtov eQCdGseki+exJULUTkeQLkh8bbPzDC0= =ru9U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 19 19:57:44 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 01:27:44 +0530 Subject: Installing guide - comment Message-ID: <49C2A3B8.9070605@fedoraproject.org> Hi Not a specific comment at all but thought I would pass this along http://linagra.com/2009/03/how-do-i-download-and-install-fedora-11/ Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Thu Mar 19 21:03:58 2009 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:03:58 -0700 Subject: [jkeating@redhat.com: Fedora 11 Beta slip] Message-ID: <20090319210358.GE4569@calliope.phig.org> In case you are not on fedora-devel-announce (and if not, why?) ;-) ----- Forwarded message from Jesse Keating ----- From: Jesse Keating To: fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com Organization: Red Hat Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:46:50 -0700 Subject: Fedora 11 Beta slip X-BeenThere: fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com Today we have decided to slip the Beta release by 7 days. There are a number of reasons, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=476774&hide_resolved=1 has gory details, but essentially: * Late discovered PPC breakage * LiveCD installation fallout due to anaconda storage rewrite * More time for anaconda storage rewrite to settle This is in no means a pointing of fingers, many factors led to the current state we're in now. Our task now is to determine the best way to get a valuable Beta release out to our users with as little effect to the final release schedule. As such, Release Engineering in coordination with QA and maintainers who are working on the above issue have agreed to enact a 7 day slip. The final release date will not change, we will absorb the lost week into the time between beta and final freeze. Rawhide freeze will remain in effect. Only critical changes will be tagged for the Beta, in order to maximize our changes at fixing the current issues without introducing new ones. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating _______________________________________________ Fedora-devel-announce mailing list Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From r.landmann at redhat.com Thu Mar 19 22:21:20 2009 From: r.landmann at redhat.com (Ruediger Landmann) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 08:21:20 +1000 Subject: Installing guide - comment In-Reply-To: <49C2A3B8.9070605@fedoraproject.org> References: <49C2A3B8.9070605@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <49C2C560.2020602@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Not a specific comment at all but thought I would pass this along > > http://linagra.com/2009/03/how-do-i-download-and-install-fedora-11/ > Thanks for that ? A similar question has been on my mind while working on the guide, which comprehensively documents (hopefully) every possible way of installing Fedora on 32-bit and 64-bit x86 platforms. As the Installation Guide becomes more comprehensive, the niche for a "Quick Start Guide" grows. I'm quite happy to write one up, but I can't see that happening for Fedora 11. Maybe Fedora 12? Rudi From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 19 22:57:57 2009 From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:57:57 -0400 Subject: Installing guide - comment In-Reply-To: <49C2C560.2020602@redhat.com> References: <49C2A3B8.9070605@fedoraproject.org> <49C2C560.2020602@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Ruediger Landmann wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >> Not a specific comment at all but thought I would pass this along >> >> http://linagra.com/2009/03/how-do-i-download-and-install-fedora-11/ >> > > Thanks for that ? > > A similar question has been on my mind while working on the guide, which > comprehensively documents (hopefully) every possible way of installing > Fedora on 32-bit and 64-bit x86 platforms. > > As the Installation Guide becomes more comprehensive, the niche for a "Quick > Start Guide" grows. I'm quite happy to write one up, but I can't see that > happening for Fedora 11. Maybe Fedora 12? > > Rudi > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > I spent a few hours this morning annotating a dead tree copy of the F12 install guide as it exists now and was thinking the same thing. We are currently at 116 pages - and while a lot of that is appendices, there is a lot of content, and it's not the kind of thing I'd toss at my mother or grandmother to try and get them to install Fedora. I think you are right though - F12 is probably the best bet for this - say just cover LiveCD installation or something of that nature. From r.landmann at redhat.com Fri Mar 20 00:00:19 2009 From: r.landmann at redhat.com (Ruediger Landmann) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:00:19 +1000 Subject: Installing guide - comment In-Reply-To: References: <49C2A3B8.9070605@fedoraproject.org> <49C2C560.2020602@redhat.com> Message-ID: <49C2DC93.8080808@redhat.com> David Nalley wrote: > I spent a few hours this morning annotating a dead tree copy of the > F12 install guide as it exists now and was thinking the same thing. We > are currently at 116 pages - and while a lot of that is appendices, > there is a lot of content, and it's not the kind of thing I'd toss at > my mother or grandmother to try and get them to install Fedora. I > think you are right though - F12 is probably the best bet for this - > say just cover LiveCD installation or something of that nature. > Yeah - just the quickest, easiest path to get from zero to a functional Fedora installation (which is the LiveCD) Probably the emphasis is on * how to get the image (and which image to choose) * how to burn the image to CD * how to boot from the CD Unless you're doing something fancy (in which case you might need the full-blown IG), you can just follow the prompts from there and you'll be OK... The frustration expressed in the link that Rahul posted would certainly be solved with just those three topics. Rudi From laubersm at fedoraproject.org Fri Mar 20 04:10:29 2009 From: laubersm at fedoraproject.org (Susan Lauber) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 00:10:29 -0400 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <5ca466ce0903160531y7f1bc195p97beceb9373dca7@mail.gmail.com> References: <5ca466ce0903160531y7f1bc195p97beceb9373dca7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 8:31 AM, kieran Moore wrote: > > Hi, I'm posting my self-introduction. I'm interested in environmental > management and also in ?e-Learning. ?I've been reading the list for a > while and I'm hoping to help with the documentation for this or the > next Fedora release. ?I've experience with using Fedora 4 & 5. ?I have > the 11 alpha on my laptop. I have a Red Hat bugzilla. I'll complete > the things to do list gradually. Hmm, 4 days and nobody said welcome, we are getting behind here. Welcome Kieran! Come by #fedora-docs and say hello. There are often people there that will be happy to help you get started. Our process pages are still in need of some organizing so please ask any questions in irc or here. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Docs_Project Some of the things that need to be done for the F11 release are the Release Notes - which currently involves adding content the wiki Documentation Beats. Installation Guide - well under way in XML format - are you familiar with DocBook and Publican? Users Guide - that last I saw was moving from wiki to XML Again, welcome. -Susan > > Email: kieranian2001 at gmail.com > > > ?Kieran Moore ?GPG Fingerprint: C389 C993 99E0 657D F9CD ?0C31 DCC5 > 3BF7 2A59 A743 > > -- > Kieran Moore > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > -- Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS) Lauber System Solutions, Inc. http://www.laubersolutions.com gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE 4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974 From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Mar 20 05:16:46 2009 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 07:16:46 +0200 Subject: Announcing Transifex 0.5 In-Reply-To: <6d4237680903192205t36f37bd6n11fc876323bc5349@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d4237680903192205t36f37bd6n11fc876323bc5349@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d4237680903192216i6279a864p33d07aeafecd4af1@mail.gmail.com> Indifex and the Transifex Community are proud to announce the newest version of their flagship translation platform, Transifex 0.5. Transifex is a web application written in Python using the Django web framework that gives translators a web interface to various version control systems. Files to be translated can be downloaded, translated files can be uploaded directly to the source repository, and various translation statistics can be read at a glance. Transifex is already in use by the Fedora Project to translate its interfaces to an audience of more than 5 million users. What does it offer? =================== Transifex currently supports the following Version control systems: ?- Concurrent Version System ?- Subversion ?- Bazaar ?- Mercurial ?- Git For statistics generation, Transifex supports static gettext message catalogs and intltool-based ones, used by the vast majority of open source software projects. What's new in 0.5? ================== A full list of the features offered in this release can be found in the release notes: ?http://docs.transifex.org/releases/0.5.html This release represents a significant advance in Transifex development since the Transifex 0.3 release in November 2008. Here?s a 40K-foot view of the release in numbers and most important feature categories. 243 files changed, 14027 insertions(+), 319 deletions(-) ?- Complete re-write of the source code on top of the Django Web framework ?- New data model supporting multiple repositories per project (eg. branches ? ?or domains of files), and project collections (eg. Fedora, GNOME, etc.) ?- Calculation of a project?s translation coverage (statistics) ?- Submission support of files to a variety of version control systems ?- Support for serving translation files to users for easy access to them ?- User registrations and authentication (including OpenID) ?- Simple workflow support What does it look like? ======================= The Fedora Project is currently running an instance of Transifex at: ?https://translate.fedoraproject.org/tx/ For some eye candy, check out the screenshots on our site, at: ?http://transifex.org/screenshots How can I get it? ================= Project and community managers who want to deploy Transifex for their own community can get Transifex in a variety of ways. A tarball of Transifex 0.5 is available at: ?http://transifex.org/files/ For full installation instructions, refer to the documentation section: ?http://docs.transifex.org/intro/install.html RPM packages for Fedora 9, Fedora 10, and Fedora Rawhide are or will soon be available via yum: ?yum install transifex transifex-extras RPM packages for RHEL 5, CentOS 5, and Scientific Linux 5 will be available in Fedora EPEL: ?https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL Regards, The staff of Indifex and the Transifex Community ?http://transifex.org/ ?http://www.indifex.com/ From ccurran at redhat.com Fri Mar 20 05:24:12 2009 From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:24:12 +1000 Subject: Kudos to RH Docs people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49C3287C.7020805@redhat.com> David Nalley wrote: > Perhaps there was some announcement that I missed over the past few > weeks as I have been pretty busy. > > I started looking in earnest this afternoon at the Install Guide and > saw something caused me a bit of concern. Rudi has been doing a ton of > work on the Install Guide and when I looked at the git log I noticed > repeated entries like: > > Merged $foo from RHEL IG. > > This set off alarms in my head as I 'KNEW' RH docs were OPL + the NC clause. > > I went to confirm this with the docs and noticed the changelog on the > RHEL Install Guide for 1/5/09 noted the following change: > revised Legal Notice, removed restrictions > > > See: > http://www.redhat.com/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/5/html/Installation_Guide/appe-Publican-Revision_History.html > > Kudos to the RH Docs people for being bold and using a free license. > > A more free license, it was free before but now you can rebrand it :P -- Chris Curran Technical Writer for Virtualization and Emerging Technologies Phone: +61735148302 (UTC+10) Brisbane, Australia. Red Hat, Inc. From kirk202 at q.com Fri Mar 20 05:24:27 2009 From: kirk202 at q.com (Kirk) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 23:24:27 -0600 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <5ca466ce0903160531y7f1bc195p97beceb9373dca7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 00:10:29 -0400 Susan Lauber wrote: > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 8:31 AM, kieran Moore > wrote: > > > > Hi, I'm posting my self-introduction. I'm interested in > > environmental management and also in ?e-Learning. ?I've been > > reading the list for a while and I'm hoping to help with the > > documentation for this or the next Fedora release. ?I've experience > > with using Fedora 4 & 5. ?I have the 11 alpha on my laptop. I have > > a Red Hat bugzilla. I'll complete the things to do list gradually. > > Hmm, 4 days and nobody said welcome, we are getting behind here. > > Welcome Kieran! > > Come by #fedora-docs and say hello. There are often people there that > will be happy to help you get started. > Our process pages are still in need of some organizing so please ask > any questions in irc or here. > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Docs_Project > > Some of the things that need to be done for the F11 release are the > Release Notes - which currently involves adding content the wiki > Documentation Beats. > Installation Guide - well under way in XML format - are you familiar > with DocBook and Publican? > Users Guide - that last I saw was moving from wiki to XML > > Again, welcome. > > -Susan > > > > > Email: kieranian2001 at gmail.com > > > > > > ?Kieran Moore ?GPG Fingerprint: C389 C993 99E0 657D F9CD ?0C31 DCC5 > > 3BF7 2A59 A743 > > > > -- > > Kieran Moore > > > > -- > > fedora-docs-list mailing list > > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > > To unsubscribe: > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > > > > Welcome Kieran, Like Susan suggested stop by #fedora-docs and get acquainted, its a helpful group and the best place to meet everyone and get help. I think you'll find your time enjoyable and well spent. -Kirk From eric at christensenplace.us Fri Mar 20 13:18:53 2009 From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 09:18:53 -0400 Subject: [jkeating@redhat.com: Fedora 11 Beta slip] In-Reply-To: <20090319210358.GE4569@calliope.phig.org> References: <20090319210358.GE4569@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1237555133.9310.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Even though there is a seven day slip, lets try to still have all of our items complete NLT Sunday evening (US time) so we will be ahead of the game. Maybe we can work on this Saturday evening (unless you have a date) around 0001 UTC. Eric On Thu, 2009-03-19 at 14:03 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > In case you are not on fedora-devel-announce (and if not, why?) ;-) > > ----- Forwarded message from Jesse Keating ----- > > From: Jesse Keating > To: fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com > Organization: Red Hat > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:46:50 -0700 > Subject: Fedora 11 Beta slip > X-BeenThere: fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com > > Today we have decided to slip the Beta release by 7 days. There are a > number of reasons, > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=476774&hide_resolved=1 has gory details, but essentially: > > * Late discovered PPC breakage > * LiveCD installation fallout due to anaconda storage rewrite > * More time for anaconda storage rewrite to settle > > This is in no means a pointing of fingers, many factors led to the > current state we're in now. Our task now is to determine the best way > to get a valuable Beta release out to our users with as little effect to > the final release schedule. As such, Release Engineering in > coordination with QA and maintainers who are working on the above issue > have agreed to enact a 7 day slip. The final release date will not > change, we will absorb the lost week into the time between beta and > final freeze. > > Rawhide freeze will remain in effect. Only critical changes will be > tagged for the Beta, in order to maximize our changes at fixing the > current issues without introducing new ones. > > -- > Jesse Keating > Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! > identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating > > > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-devel-announce mailing list > Fedora-devel-announce at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-announce > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 13:42:08 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 09:42:08 -0400 Subject: Announcing Transifex 0.5 In-Reply-To: <6d4237680903192216i6279a864p33d07aeafecd4af1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d4237680903192205t36f37bd6n11fc876323bc5349@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680903192216i6279a864p33d07aeafecd4af1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090320134208.GH11465@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 07:16:46AM +0200, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > For statistics generation, Transifex supports static gettext message catalogs > and intltool-based ones, used by the vast majority of open source software > projects. Hi Dimitris, Tx is really shaping up well. Can you give us (Docs team esp.) an idea of the outlook for Publican support? -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 14:16:31 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:16:31 -0400 Subject: Anaconda woes and release notes Message-ID: <20090320141631.GI11465@localhost.localdomain> Hi Docs team, As you know, the Beta has been slipped a week to March 31. Jesse Keating outlined the reasons for this in his announcement[1], which include issues in the Anaconda installer, which has had a complete rewrite of its storage backend. We *really* need Beta downloaders to be aware of these issues when they download, so they need to be called out well in the Beta release notes. Also, we want to encourage people *not* to hold off, because without more testing of the Beta, it is less likely issues are going to be found, filed, and fixed. (Hmm, three more "good f-words.") ;-) In particular, a couple things for which I believe Beta testers should have a super-big "heads up": * the storage rewrite, and how it affects their ability to install (problems are currently in RAID and properly picking up some LVM configurations) * ext4 as default -- I think this is still the plan; updates aren't converted, but fresh installs will default to ext4 file systems * BACK UP DATA!!!1!! Yes, we really should impress this on people, especially if they're in the RAID or LVM category (which is most people -- default installations use LVM nowadays). So we're trying to set reasonable expectations, while encouraging people to test, especially installation. I have some information on current Anaconda gaps, which I can include in the [[Common F11 bugs]] page, if that helps. * * * [1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-announce/2009-March/msg00015.html -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 21:12:15 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 17:12:15 -0400 Subject: Markup on wiki - please read Message-ID: <20090320211215.GA26316@localhost.localdomain> I've added a few extra templates for use on the wiki. I wish I had time to do more, but these should help get people started. You can add your own if you find other cases where these are useful. There is already a great template for marking up package names: {{package|name}} When you use this template, by adding e.g. {{package|foo}} into your page, you get a specially marked "foo" with a little package picture next to it. It also links to a useful page. Please use it any time you reference a package name in a wiki page. The templates I created are somewhat less useful except when you consider the idea of exporting wiki text out later. I created the following: {{filename|name}} {{command|name}} These are used wherever you'd use the and elements inline in a paragraph. (You don't use them when the text appears on its own in a 
 section on the wiki page.)

I've updated some text on the [[Fedora 11 Beta release notes]] page,
and invite you to take a look at it -- particularly the section on
"xguest" usage.  There is example usage in this paragraph that will
help you get a feel for how to use these templates.  I also invite
people to create more of these.

With standardized usage like this, we might be able to improve the
chances of getting useful wiki exports to DocBook through
e.g. python-mwlib or the like.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From ianweller at gmail.com  Fri Mar 20 23:27:24 2009
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:27:24 -0500
Subject: Markup on wiki - please read
In-Reply-To: <20090320211215.GA26316@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20090320211215.GA26316@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090320232724.GC26142@gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 05:12:15PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> I've added a few extra templates for use on the wiki.  I wish I had
> time to do more, but these should help get people started.  You can
> add your own if you find other cases where these are useful.
> 
> There is already a great template for marking up package names:
> 
>  {{package|name}}
> 
> When you use this template, by adding e.g. {{package|foo}} into your
> page, you get a specially marked "foo" with a little package picture
> next to it.  It also links to a useful page.  Please use it any time
> you reference a package name in a wiki page.
> 
> The templates I created are somewhat less useful except when you
> consider the idea of exporting wiki text out later.  I created the
> following:
> 
> {{filename|name}}
> {{command|name}}
> 
> These are used wherever you'd use the  and 
> elements inline in a paragraph.  (You don't use them when the text
> appears on its own in a 
 section on the wiki page.)
> 
> I've updated some text on the [[Fedora 11 Beta release notes]] page,
> and invite you to take a look at it -- particularly the section on
> "xguest" usage.  There is example usage in this paragraph that will
> help you get a feel for how to use these templates.  I also invite
> people to create more of these.
> 
> With standardized usage like this, we might be able to improve the
> chances of getting useful wiki exports to DocBook through
> e.g. python-mwlib or the like.
> 
+1  :)

-- 
Ian Weller 
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
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From satya.komaragiri at gmail.com  Sat Mar 21 12:04:06 2009
From: satya.komaragiri at gmail.com (satya komaragiri)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 17:34:06 +0530
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
Message-ID: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am a final year undergraduate student from India and I plan to apply
for Google Summer of Code. I would like to implement a Docbook editor.
I discussed this idea with Mr. Yaakov Nemoy (cc'ed in this mail) who
has agreed and is guiding me through the process.

The Docbook editor will make it easy to write documentation through a
wysiwyg interface. Since Docbook has a great collection of XSLs[1] it
will be easy to convert it to HTML and write a web based editor.

My research has pointed me to Beacon[2], which is a similar editor for
GuideXML (Gentoo's documentation format). It uses an XSLT engine to
transform XML to HTML and vice versa. I contacted the developer of
this project and it seems like this project has been in hibernation
for couple of months or so. But the codebase is quite developed and
should be easy to work with. The developers were also making it a
generic plug-able framework for easy integration of other doc types.

Since it is a web-based editor, we can integrate this into the Fedora
documentation site for easy editing and creation.

It would be very nice if the Docs team could provide some feedback on
what they feel about  a web-based GUI editor which would eliminate the
need for knowing the Docbook XML format. If I am given a go ahead, I
would like to put this up as a Feature.

Regards,
Satya Komaragiri


[1]  Existing XSL for Docbook:
http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookXslStylesheets
[2]  Beacon: http://beacon.kix.in/



From kgs at esilibrary.com  Sat Mar 21 12:17:36 2009
From: kgs at esilibrary.com (Karen Schneider)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 08:17:36 -0400
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 8:04 AM, satya komaragiri <
satya.komaragiri at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am a final year undergraduate student from India and I plan to apply
> for Google Summer of Code. I would like to implement a Docbook editor.
> I discussed this idea with Mr. Yaakov Nemoy (cc'ed in this mail) who
> has agreed and is guiding me through the process.
>
> The Docbook editor will make it easy to write documentation through a
> wysiwyg interface. Since Docbook has a great collection of XSLs[1] it
> will be easy to convert it to HTML and write a web based editor.



Speaking as a lurker on this list who in real life is trying to wrap her
head around the complexity of formalizing  a docs project in an open source
project... I personally think this feels a real need. Satya, there is also a
docbook-apps list where you might get additional feedback on this idea. I'm
working on a proof of concept for Docbook within our project, and there is a
hurdle for Docbook production with respect to contributions from
nontechnical volunteers (and even to some extent the more technical
participants) that an editor "in the cloud" could significantly help
address.


-- 
-- 
| Karen G. Schneider
| Community Librarian
| Equinox Software Inc. "The Evergreen Experts"
| Toll-free: 1.877.Open.ILS (1.877.673.6457) x712
| kgs at esilibrary.com
| Web: http://www.esilibrary.com
| Be a part of the Evergreen International Conference, May 20-22, 2009!
| http://www.solinet.net/evergreen
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From satya.komaragiri at gmail.com  Sat Mar 21 18:54:46 2009
From: satya.komaragiri at gmail.com (satya komaragiri)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 00:24:46 +0530
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: 
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <146c63b10903211154y45bae868wa5d6e3fc2080056b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Karen,

2009/3/21 Karen Schneider :
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 8:04 AM, satya komaragiri
>  wrote:

> Speaking as a lurker on this list who in real life is trying to wrap her
> head around the complexity of formalizing? a docs project in an open source
> project... I personally think this feels a real need. Satya, there is also a
> docbook-apps list where you might get additional feedback on this idea. I'm
> working on a proof of concept for Docbook within our project, and there is a
> hurdle for Docbook production with respect to contributions from
> nontechnical volunteers (and even to some extent the more technical
> participants) that an editor "in the cloud" could significantly help
> address.

Thanks a lot for the feedback. Yes, Docbook can be daunting simply
because of its richness of features. The main motive behind this
project is to make life easier for the documentation team and attract
new people to it by lowering the knowledge barrier.

Thanks for the pointer, I'll mail the Docbook Apps list too.

Regards
Satya



From danielsmw at gmail.com  Sat Mar 21 19:03:16 2009
From: danielsmw at gmail.com (Matthew Daniels)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:03:16 -0400
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>

Satya,

A docbook XML editor, especially web-based as you propose, could  
definitely be useful for the docs team. I don't think it would totally  
eliminate the need to know XML, but it doesn't need to. Just giving a  
way for contributers to write content without having to learn a rich  
markup language would probably mean we could recruit more people and  
get things done faster.

Keep us updated on your progress!

On Mar 21, 2009, at 8:04 AM, satya komaragiri  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am a final year undergraduate student from India and I plan to apply
> for Google Summer of Code. I would like to implement a Docbook editor.
> I discussed this idea with Mr. Yaakov Nemoy (cc'ed in this mail) who
> has agreed and is guiding me through the process.
>
> The Docbook editor will make it easy to write documentation through a
> wysiwyg interface. Since Docbook has a great collection of XSLs[1] it
> will be easy to convert it to HTML and write a web based editor.
>
> My research has pointed me to Beacon[2], which is a similar editor for
> GuideXML (Gentoo's documentation format). It uses an XSLT engine to
> transform XML to HTML and vice versa. I contacted the developer of
> this project and it seems like this project has been in hibernation
> for couple of months or so. But the codebase is quite developed and
> should be easy to work with. The developers were also making it a
> generic plug-able framework for easy integration of other doc types.
>
> Since it is a web-based editor, we can integrate this into the Fedora
> documentation site for easy editing and creation.
>
> It would be very nice if the Docs team could provide some feedback on
> what they feel about  a web-based GUI editor which would eliminate the
> need for knowing the Docbook XML format. If I am given a go ahead, I
> would like to put this up as a Feature.
>
> Regards,
> Satya Komaragiri
>
>
> [1]  Existing XSL for Docbook:
> http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookXslStylesheets
> [2]  Beacon: http://beacon.kix.in/
>
> -- 
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list



From ianweller at gmail.com  Sat Mar 21 19:44:11 2009
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:44:11 -0500
Subject: FDSCo Meeting 2009-03-19 IRC Log
Message-ID: <20090321194411.GA5134@gmail.com>

Sorry it took so long to get out. Log attached.

-- 
Ian Weller 
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
-------------- next part --------------
00:00  * Sparks is here
00:00  * danielsmw is here
00:00  * laubersm  is here
00:00  * rudi is here
00:00  * ianweller 
00:00  * jjmcd is here
00:00  * zoglesby is here
00:00 < ianweller> .wikilink ianweller
00:00 < zodbot> ianweller: [[User:ianweller|Ian Weller]]
00:00  * radsy is here
00:00 < laubersm> ianweller, show off
00:00 < ianweller> :3
00:00  * joat is here
00:00 < laubersm> .wikilink laubersm
00:00 < zodbot> laubersm: [[User:laubersm|Susan Lauber]]
00:00  * quaid is here
00:01  * Sparks waits for ke4qqq and ryanlerch
00:02 < jjmcd> David sounded like he had to physically travel to be here, haven't seen Ryan yet today
00:02 < Sparks> Well, to not waste time...
00:02 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Beta Announcement
00:03 < Sparks> First, we had the Beta conference call earlier today...
00:03  * rudi peers across the office and notices that Ryan's not at his desk
00:03 < Sparks> a lot of things were covered and whenever they release the notes I'll pass them along to group via the list.
00:03 -!- mdomsch [n=mdomsch at c-69-242-157-178.hsd1.mo.comcast.net] has quit "Leaving"
00:04 < Sparks> Thanks to ke4qqq for reminding me that he somehow got Docs on the list for creating the Beta Announcement
00:04 < quaid> oops :)
00:04 < Sparks> BUT...
00:05 < Sparks> A special thanks to jjmcd for grabbing the bull by the horns and really creating nice, attention grabbing announcement
00:05 < Sparks> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F11_Beta_Announcement
00:05 < Sparks> Please review it and make recommendations/changes as necessary.
00:05 < Sparks> I especially like the opening paragraph.  :)
00:05 < jjmcd> ;-)
00:06 < Sparks> BZ jjmcd
00:06 < quaid> yeah, we can add that as part of Docs standar op procedure each release ... we've had the final announcement duties for a while
00:06 < quaid> but releng has obviously wanted us to do more :)
00:06 -!- che__ [n=che at ip-77-25-173-255.web.vodafone.de] has joined #fedora-meeting
00:06 < laubersm> Are we trying to keep it to a "one page"?  How much can it grow?
00:06 < Sparks> quaid: Yeah, and I think it is a perfect time for us to summarize the release notes... kinda
00:06  * herlo is semi-here btw...
00:06 < Sparks> laubersm: I don't want it to grow much more...
00:06 -!- che [n=che at redhat/che] has quit Nick collision from services.
00:07 < Sparks> laubersm: if only because it is supposed to be a summary of a summary...
00:07 -!- che__ is now known as che
00:07 < laubersm> The features page has one liners from proposals but they have some better descriptions in each feature page...  that are not much bigger
00:07 < Sparks> laubersm: We just want to get you in the door long enough to download and install the beta.
00:07 < Sparks> +1 for adding interesting items that will pull users/developers in
00:07  * ianweller reads beta announcement
00:08 < jjmcd> I ripped off some of the text from the talking points, stressed some over whether it was too long
00:08 < Sparks> I think it would be better to have TOO much information in there and have to edit some of it out for brevity.
00:08 < laubersm> ok...  I am not a fan of "rebase" or "etc" and I think we should be past "the goal is"  thoses are all from the initial feature page summaries - many of those
00:08 < laubersm> pages ahve better para at the end of the feature page for RN
00:09 < quaid> are we still on the release announcement?
00:09 < Sparks> quaid: yes
00:09  * laubersm knows how to edit and will... also promises to not get wordy :)
00:09 < jjmcd> Thanks, Susan
00:09 < Sparks> quaid: When do they cut Beta loose?
00:09 < jjmcd> Tues I think
00:09 < ianweller> announcement looks good
00:10 < quaid> ok, in terms of length, long is bad :)
00:10 < Sparks> jjmcd: So this needs to be done no later than Sunday eve
00:10 < quaid> that stuff belongs in the release notes
00:10 < ianweller> it is a bit wordy, yeah
00:10 < jjmcd> Yeah, the sked says RNs gotta be done Mon
00:10 < ianweller> "Peek behind the kimono" whirr
00:10 < Sparks> We want to hit the high points ONLY, IMO
00:10 < joat> it's a beta announcement... suggest limiting each of the bullet sets to the best 5, with an URL to the rest
00:11 < ianweller> i suggest limiting the total number of bullets to 10
00:11 < joat> best 5 of each that is...
00:11 < jjmcd> Good plan, the trick is figuring out which are the best 5
00:11 < Sparks> jjmcd: Well, if you have six or seven STRONG points, no foul in putting them all in
00:11 < joat>  probably depends on which demographic each set is aiming at
00:11 < ianweller> i like the beta contest. lol.
00:12 < radsy> last I heard it was the 24th
00:12 < Sparks> joat: True.  Right now it is broken down into "user" and "developer"
00:12 < jjmcd> that's ripped off from 10
00:12 < Sparks> Yes
00:12 < Sparks> I don't think it is a bad way to organize it but I'm not tied to it
00:13 < jjmcd> If we take out gnome, kde, anaconda and devkit we have 5 5 5, and those are pretty esoteric or limited population IMO
00:13 < Sparks> jjmcd: Let's make sure we are satisfied with it NLT Sunday.  We can talk about it more later this week.
00:14 < jjmcd> yep
00:14  * quaid adds a point to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:F11_Beta_Announcement
00:14 < Sparks> jjmcd: I don't like taking out gnome and kde...
00:14 < ianweller> Sparks: combine gnome and kde into one bullet
00:14 < quaid> yes
00:14 < jjmcd> Not a bad plan
00:14 < ianweller> and fwiw the first paragraph seems awkwardly worded but i'm not exactly sure how you would fix it
00:14 < zoglesby> are we really gaining much from new versions of either?
00:14 < jjmcd> Updates to the latest window managers gnome 2.6, kde whatever
00:15 < jjmcd> Not much visible
00:15 -!- ryanlerch [n=rlerch at nat/redhat/x-16d64ddc8b259390] has joined #fedora-meeting
00:15 < laubersm> yes - and minimize to just updated to version X - they are only additions of upstream stuff....
00:15  * laubersm sees that jjmcd already said that :(
00:15  * ryanlerch apoligises for lateness
00:15 < Sparks> ryanlerch: You haven't missed your topic yet
00:16 < Sparks> Okay, anything else on the release announcement?
00:16 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Publican fix for Fedora? <-- jjmcd
00:16 < Sparks> jjmcd: You were working on a script to "fix" publican srpms for Fedora.
00:16 < joat> i still haven't figured that one out yet
00:17 < Sparks> jjmcd: Where are you with this?
00:17 < jjmcd> No progress there since last week, although I am convinced that it isn't a big deal
00:17 < Sparks> Should we just use the old tools as necessary?
00:17 < jjmcd> I figure I;m trainable -- worst case I write a spc file
00:17 < jjmcd> I don't know how applicable they are
00:17 < jjmcd> I am studying them to see what I can rip off tho
00:18 < Sparks> quaid: We can use the "old" tool to create docs from the Docbook XMLs, correct?
00:18 < quaid> well
00:18 < quaid> yes, but it's a port back
00:18 -!- cassmodiah [n=cass at fedora/cassmodiah] has quit Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
00:18 < Sparks> Why?
00:18 < quaid> hmm
00:18 < jjmcd> We can create the docs from Pubblican, the only thing we are lacking is the spec file
00:18 < quaid> maybe not so much, but not sure if you can have
00:18 < quaid> as single set of XML files that is subservient to both toolchains.
00:18 -!- kulll_ [n=kulll at 203.82.91.34] has quit Remote closed the connection
00:19 < Sparks> jjmcd: We aren't lacking a spec file... We are lacking proper information in the spec file
00:19 < jjmcd> yes
00:19 < quaid> e.g. fedora-doc-utils uses an rpm-info.xml file, etc.
00:19 < quaid> so what jjmcd is doing
00:19 < quaid> is probably saner, or equally sane.
00:19 < Sparks> Okay
00:19 < quaid> either we make one set of XML files work under both, or
00:19 < quaid> we make it work under Publican and hand-build a .spec file for each guide.
00:19 -!- spoleeba [n=one at fedora/Jef] has quit Remote closed the connection
00:19 < quaid> (which are largely the same spec files, aiui)
00:20 < quaid> in this case, jjmcd has the f-d-u and stickster_afk's brian to pick.
00:20 < jjmcd> I figure people write spec files every day and I'm possibly trainable
00:20 < quaid> with a six of one, half dozen of the other, let's pick whatever moves us the most cm forward.
00:20 < jjmcd> And getting away from a long ugly toolchain is a win imo
00:21 < quaid> hey!
00:21 < quaid> it's not ugly
00:21 < Sparks> jjmcd: I can show you a "proper" spec file
00:21 < quaid> it just doesn't have an upstream other than ourselves :)
00:21 < jjmcd> Well, maybe I should say to a toolchain that somebody else supports
00:21  * quaid has also heard that said about Publican, fwiw :D
00:21 < Sparks> Well, my concern is that we HAVE to get the Release Notes ready.  I'd really like to get the security guide ready before F11, too.
00:21 -!- adamw [n=AdamW at redhat/adamw] has joined #fedora-meeting
00:22 < jjmcd> Ryan's work has really moved us much farther along that path than we are accustomed to being at this time
00:22 -!- kulll [n=kulll at 203.82.91.34] has joined #fedora-meeting
00:22 < Sparks> +1
00:22 < Sparks> Okay, let's come back to the release notes in a bit.
00:23 < Sparks> jjmcd: Let's work on this more this weekend.  I THINK I should be around.
00:23 < jjmcd> good deal
00:23 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - CMS Update <-- ke4qqq
00:23 < Sparks> I don't think ke4qqq is around tonight...
00:24 < radsy> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/publican-fedora-0.18-0.fc10,publican-0.44-0.fc10 worth testing
00:24 < Sparks> however I overheard him say that Zikula is now packaged.
00:24 < Sparks> and that he needs some help getting the modules packaged.
00:25 < Sparks> Does anyone have anything to add?
00:25 < Sparks> radsy: Thanks for the link.  I'll try that out as it fixes one of my bugs.
00:25 < ianweller> .whoowns zikula
00:25 < zodbot> ianweller: No such package exists.
00:25  * ianweller shrugs :P
00:26 < Sparks> ianweller: I think it is still going through the process...  b
00:26 < Sparks> but apparently is close
00:26 < ianweller> woo
00:26 < Sparks> Okay... next is...
00:26 -!- ReneP [i=ReneP at a190119.studnetz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
00:26 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - DocsProject wiki pages changes
00:27 < Sparks> I'm going to hand the mic over to ianweller who has a few words to say.
00:27 < ianweller> actually what i had to say was wrt the wiki itself
00:27 < ianweller> so
00:27 -!- ianweller changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - woo wiki woo
00:27 < ianweller> :)
00:27 < ianweller> um i was talking with mmcgrath yesterday and we'll soon be upgrading from MW 1.13.3 to 1.14.0
00:28 < ianweller> if our extensions still work
00:28 < ianweller> the release notes mention a multitude of bug fixes and some new features. it's mostly API stuff.
00:28 -!- ReneP [i=ReneP at a190119.studnetz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #fedora-meeting
00:29 < ianweller> i got Main Page renamed to Fedora Project Wiki
00:29 < ianweller> and so now we only have three open tickets on fedora-wiki, which is nice.
00:29  * danielsmw claps approvingly.
00:29 < Sparks> What are those tickets?  Anything big?
00:29 < ianweller> on friday, if i don't get distracted, i'll be going through the Packaging.psv file manually
00:30 < ianweller> Sparks: they're big and not really touchable, they're more infrastructure things
00:30 < ianweller> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-wiki/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&milestone=Fedora+11&order=priority
00:30 < ianweller> except for ticket 2
00:30 < laubersm> I should be around some of the day - let me know and I'll help
00:30 < ianweller> laubersm: wonderful
00:31 < ianweller> and as always, if anybody has a problem with the wiki, they can add a ticket at fh.o/fedora-wiki
00:31 < ianweller> everything gets assigned to me by default so i'll see it
00:31  * Sparks writes a bot to log a ticket every minute
00:32  * ianweller opens a ticket at fedora-infrastructure to ban Sparks 
00:32 < ianweller> ok i'm done :)
00:32 < laubersm> I think we need a new push for how renaming helps search - ie blog posts...  I have been seeing renewed enthusiasm for wiki pages but bad name choices
00:32 < Sparks> touche
00:32 < ianweller> laubersm: if you can lead that effort that'd be great
00:32 < ianweller> i feel like i'm throwing things on you massively lol.
00:32 < laubersm> Marketing and Ambassadors have gotten on board (some) but so many more groups should move meeting pages and archive stuff!
00:33  * Sparks thought there was a howto in the help about naming schemes
00:33 < laubersm> Even that little bit would help a lot.
00:33 < Sparks> Maybe some education or something
00:33 < jjmcd> you expect people to read the instructions?
00:33 < Sparks> that or shock therapy
00:34 < zoglesby> ianweller: didn't you do a blog post about that recently?
00:34 < danielsmw> +1 to shock therapy.
00:34 < laubersm> There are what - over 10 of us here tonight - that is one blog post per day for over a week about how renaming helps and where to find the docs...
00:34 < ianweller> zoglesby: i think so
00:34 < ianweller> recently == long enough ago to forget
00:34 < ianweller> ;)
00:34 < zoglesby> lol
00:35 < laubersm> Yeah ianweller what happened to wiki tip a week?  Did you go on to wiki tip per year?
00:35 < ianweller> laubersm: :) i realize that every now and then
00:35 < ianweller> and then get horribly distracted. :(
00:35 < zoglesby> I'm not sure how much people think about titles when they add to the wiki as much as it is get the info out there
00:35 < ianweller> and/or have nothing to write about
00:36 < laubersm> zoglesby, the new stuff isn't my biggest concern at the moment - it is cleaning up the old stuff - getting each group to say what stays and what goes.
00:36 < Sparks> ianweller: Is there a naming scheme on the wiki?
00:36 < joat> I think that once it slides off the front page (if it was there at all), people tend to use search functions rather than indexes
00:36 < laubersm> A new page was created recently and didn't show in the search - only it did - it was hit number about 800.
00:36 -!- che [n=che at ip-77-25-173-255.web.vodafone.de] has quit "Verlassend"
00:37 < jjmcd> I think newer pages show up last
00:37 < ianweller> Sparks: i really don't know what you're asking
00:37 -!- che [n=che at redhat/che] has joined #fedora-meeting
00:37 < Sparks> we need a page that describes the "proper" way to name a wiki page
00:37 < Sparks> guidelines... ideas... tips
00:37 < ianweller> thought we had one
00:37 < ianweller> somewhere in Help: or FedoraProject:
00:37 < laubersm> jjmcd, which is an infrastructure issue (and a ticket for ianweller)  :) but about half those pages were meeting of F7 or FC4 or ....
00:37 < Sparks> that's my queston
00:38 < laubersm> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Contents
00:38 < laubersm> Sparks, you are looking for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_structure
00:38 < Sparks> yes, tu
00:39 < laubersm> I also need to get this incorporated somewhere: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Laubersm/wiki_cleanup_notes
00:40 < Sparks> Okay, I'll put something out on the blog tonight...  If we see someone create a new page that is named poorly let's contact the creator and point them to that help page
00:41 < Sparks> How many "docs" pages do we still need to rename?
00:41 < laubersm> I think the DocsProject/* pages are all renamed - though many still need updating in content.
00:41 < laubersm> There are some Docs/* pages left though
00:42 < laubersm> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Docs_Project
00:42 < jjmcd> I found a few of the Docs/Beats pages the other night - had a different agenda tho so didn't rename them
00:42 < jjmcd> But I have a list
00:42 < laubersm> I have been trying to get them into a category or sub category....
00:43 < laubersm> I would also like to see the Docs Project category with a few less items - ie placed into  reasonable sub categories...
00:44 < laubersm> It is a wiki - be bold - and don't wait for me :)
00:44 -!- Nirmal [n=npathak at nat/redhat-in/x-f494718b5efeba97] has quit "Leaving"
00:44 < ianweller> or me :)
00:45 < jjmcd> third quarter buzzer
00:45 < Sparks> Okay, anything else for the wiki?
00:45 < ianweller> newp
00:45 -!- ianweller changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - not the wiki
00:46 < laubersm> yeah - what he said
00:46 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on Release Notes <-- ryanlerch & jjmcd
00:46 < jjmcd> I have a few notes
00:46 < Sparks> ryanlerch: jjmcd: What's the word?
00:46 < jjmcd> 1) Reviewed beats for Beta one page, looks pretty reasonable
00:46 < jjmcd> 2) quaid assures me we need to do nothing for the one-page
00:47 < jjmcd> 3) Need better update info on ext4, ke4qqq working on it
00:47 < jjmcd> 4) Just got an update on EDA from Chitlesh, outstanding
00:47 < jjmcd> 5) There are some places we are weak, but most we can deal with. We need the most help on the Networking beat
00:47 < jjmcd> 6) Ryan moved Publican source to git, I moved a little more from wiki to Publican, looks like Ryan did too.  Still work to do there but not in really bad shape.
00:47 < jjmcd> 7) Wiki freeze 4/1, preview RNs due 15th, I estimate 2-3 days work between now and 15th
00:47 < jjmcd> that's the end of my notes
00:48 < ryanlerch> that about sums it up for me as well...
00:48 < Sparks> Okay... Any questions?
00:49 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on Installation Guide <-- ke4qqq
00:49 < Sparks> And ke4qqq is no where to be found...
00:49 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on Security Guide <-- sparks
00:49 < Sparks> Okay...
00:50 < Sparks> actually... radsy, do you have anything for the Security Guide?
00:50 < radsy> there are some minor changes that were brought up from the community review
00:50 < radsy> that i'd like to implement
00:50 < rudi> FWIW, there's a test build of the Publicanized IG now massively expanded with content from its RHEL equivalent available here: http://rlandmann.fedorapeople.org/Installation%20Guide/en-US/
00:51 < jjmcd> I was looking at that -- looks pretty good
00:51 -!- comraderaikov [n=dsl at 96.244.48.168] has joined #fedora-meeting
00:51 < radsy> but still not sure what's happening with packaging etc.
00:51 < Sparks> rudi: I'm sorry, I forgot you were handling that...  I'll come back to you in a second.
00:51 < rudi> NP
00:51 < Sparks> radsy: Okay, I just downloaded the new versions of Publican.
00:51 < jjmcd> Are we going to translate the guides to 40 languages, too?
00:52 < Sparks> radsy: I'm going to grab the latest from SVN and package it and put it on the ticket and also let jjmcd have a run at it
00:52 < radsy> ok great
00:52 < Sparks> jjmcd: Yes please
00:53 < radsy> i have been moved to mdious' old selinux confined services guide, so i'm stretching it to have the time to put in much more
00:53 < radsy> by release
00:53 < Sparks> cool
00:53 < radsy> some good feedback from the community however.
00:54 < radsy> that's about all for me
00:54 < Sparks> Okay, anything else for the Sec Guide?
00:54 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on Installation Guide <-- rui
00:54 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on Installation Guide <-- rudi
00:54 < Sparks> rudi: what have you got for us today?
00:55 < rudi> Well, still working on single-sourcing the Fedora and RHEL versions of the guide
00:56 < rudi> There's a lot of content that I've been able to scrounge from the RHEL version to expand the Fedora version
00:56 < rudi> (and that situation will reverse as RHEL 6 looms)
00:56 < rudi> The biggest visual change is lots of pretty pictures :)
00:57 < rudi> (Something like 40 or 50 screenshots now, in 36 languages)
00:57 < Sparks> Wow
00:57 < rudi> A really exciting thing on the L10N front is that there are six languages other than English that are also essentially complete
00:58 < Sparks> That's great!
00:58 < rudi> By a strange co-incidence, I'm currently working on the "Uninstalling RHEL" chapter
00:58 < rudi> Which dovetails nicely with the conversation on f-d-l
00:58 < Sparks> funny how it seems to work that way.
00:59 < rudi> So I'll be drawing on the wiki to augment and expand that material and make it more Fedora-specific
00:59 < Sparks> So will have be in the Installation guide?
00:59 -!- Tsagadai [n=ccurran at nat/redhat/x-9df8e12e00bd2639] has joined #Fedora-meeting
00:59 < Sparks> So will that be in the Installation guide?
00:59 < rudi> Seems like a logical place for it
01:00 < Sparks> in some sort of weird world, yes.
01:00 < Sparks> kinda like having to "start" to shut down
01:00 < Sparks> :)
01:00 < rudi> Heh indeed :)
01:00 < jjmcd> Sounds like Windows - to stop click start
01:00 < jjmcd> yeah
01:00 < rudi> I should have finished preparing that sometime in the next few hours
01:00 < laubersm> rudi - feel free to add to the wiki page too...  at least a link that there is more info in 
01:00 < rudi> thanks laubersm
01:01 < Sparks> quaid: No one follows us at this hour, correct?
01:01 < rudi> But anyway, that's about it.
01:01 < Sparks> cool
01:01  * jjmcd doesn't hear anyone beating on the door
01:01 < Sparks> Anyone have any questions or comments?
01:01 < danielsmw> I just wanted to say that a few of us ended up making an odfpy07 package which, when installed, fixes the problems we were having with mw-render.  I'm going to try to get that approved as a fedora package and hopefully mw-render will be back in business.
01:01 < danielsmw> Then the UG can be converted and done.
01:01 < danielsmw> And that's all. :)
01:02 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on User Guide <--danielsmw
01:02 < Sparks> So what danielsmw said... :)
01:02 < danielsmw> No, really!  That was all!
01:02 < danielsmw> Basically
01:03 < danielsmw> kirkz has been doing
01:03 < Sparks> Anyone have any questions?
01:03 < danielsmw> an amazing about of editing.
01:03 < danielsmw> so we just need to convert to xml.
01:03 < Sparks> excellent
01:03 < Sparks> Okay... moving right along...
01:04 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Status on SELinux Guide <-- mdious
01:04 < Sparks> I don't think mdious is onboard tonight.
01:04 < ianweller> he is not.
01:04 < radsy> i've been moved to this guide
01:04 -!- danielsmw [n=danielsm at user-24-214-179-165.knology.net] has quit "Lost terminal"
01:04 < Sparks> radsy: Okay, do you have anything you'd like to say?
01:04 < radsy> mdious left the docs team
01:05 < Sparks> really?
01:05 < ianweller> wha
01:05 < radsy> very little to report for the managing-confined-services guide, only minor changes and lots of planning
01:05 < radsy> he's gone to the other side of our office, the security response team
01:06 < Sparks> wow
01:06 < Sparks> Okay, so any questions about the SELinux guide?
01:06 < ianweller> :(
01:06 < radsy> thought you all knew :\
01:07 < Sparks> radsy: Nope, hadn't heard that
01:08 < radsy> well, no questions or major updates really, still early days
01:08 < Sparks> Okay...
01:08 -!- Sparks changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs Project - Open Discussion
01:08 < laubersm> Another thing I noticed that needs to be done at some point...  is a cleanup of bugzilla  (Classification: Fedora - Product: Fedora Documentation)
01:08 < Sparks> Anyone have anything?
01:08 < laubersm> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora%20Documentation&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED
01:08 < laubersm> 83 bugs?
01:09 < laubersm> A lot look like they are auto assigned to quaid or stickster_afk
01:09 < Sparks> laubersm: I don't think I have access to those bugs...
01:09 < Sparks> quaid: You still here?
01:09 < laubersm> I closed a bunch as wont fix - EOL
01:09 < Sparks> laubersm: Cool.
01:09 < laubersm> .fasinfo laubersm
01:09 < Sparks> laubersm: How many are left?
01:09 < zodbot> laubersm: User: laubersm, Name: Susan Lauber, email: susan at ties.org, Creation: 2008-09-26, IRC Nick: , Timezone: US/Eastern, Locale: en, Extension: 5115531, GPG key ID: BFA10974
01:09 < zodbot> laubersm: Approved Groups: cla_done fedorabugs docs sysadmin ambassadors cla_fedora sysadmin-test gitinstall-guide gitwikirename gituser-guide
01:09 < zodbot> laubersm: Unapproved Groups: None
01:09 < laubersm> quaid, and stickster_afk helped me get fedorabugs group in fas
01:10 < laubersm> that let me work on some cleanup.
01:10 < Sparks> ahhh
01:10 < Sparks> cool
01:10 < Sparks> I'll check on that.
01:10 < laubersm> But I don't really have time right now to add that to my list of things to do.
01:10 < Sparks> Anyone have anything else?
01:11 < Sparks> 5
01:11 < Sparks> 4
01:11 < Sparks> 3
01:11 < Sparks> 2
01:11 < Sparks> 1
01:11 < Sparks> Thanks everyone for coming!
01:11 < Sparks> 
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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Sun Mar 22 02:41:42 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 08:11:42 +0530
Subject: Installation guide - another comment
Message-ID: <49C5A566.3080703@fedoraproject.org>

Hi

http://www.telephone-numbers-uk.com/how-to-install-linux-fedora-on-a-i586-system.html

Rahul



From loupgaroublond at gmail.com  Sun Mar 22 04:19:27 2009
From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 00:19:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

2009/3/21 Matthew Daniels :
> Satya,
>
> A docbook XML editor, especially web-based as you propose, could definitely
> be useful for the docs team. I don't think it would totally eliminate the
> need to know XML, but it doesn't need to. Just giving a way for contributers
> to write content without having to learn a rich markup language would
> probably mean we could recruit more people and get things done faster.
>
> Keep us updated on your progress!

I've also found that for some people (myself included) that having WSYWIG and XML side by side can work as a good on the job learning aid. You could certainly market it as away for beginners to get used to working with XML.

-Yaakov

>
> On Mar 21, 2009, at 8:04 AM, satya komaragiri 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am a final year undergraduate student from India and I plan to apply
>> for Google Summer of Code. I would like to implement a Docbook editor.
>> I discussed this idea with Mr. Yaakov Nemoy (cc'ed in this mail) who
>> has agreed and is guiding me through the process.
>>
>> The Docbook editor will make it easy to write documentation through a
>> wysiwyg interface. Since Docbook has a great collection of XSLs[1] it
>> will be easy to convert it to HTML and write a web based editor.
>>
>> My research has pointed me to Beacon[2], which is a similar editor for
>> GuideXML (Gentoo's documentation format). It uses an XSLT engine to
>> transform XML to HTML and vice versa. I contacted the developer of
>> this project and it seems like this project has been in hibernation
>> for couple of months or so. But the codebase is quite developed and
>> should be easy to work with. The developers were also making it a
>> generic plug-able framework for easy integration of other doc types.
>>
>> Since it is a web-based editor, we can integrate this into the Fedora
>> documentation site for easy editing and creation.
>>
>> It would be very nice if the Docs team could provide some feedback on
>> what they feel about ?a web-based GUI editor which would eliminate the
>> need for knowing the Docbook XML format. If I am given a go ahead, I
>> would like to put this up as a Feature.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Satya Komaragiri
>>
>>
>> [1] ?Existing XSL for Docbook:
>> http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookXslStylesheets
>> [2] ?Beacon: http://beacon.kix.in/
>>
>> --
>> fedora-docs-list mailing list
>> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
>> To unsubscribe:
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>

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From cpanceac at gmail.com  Sun Mar 22 06:02:53 2009
From: cpanceac at gmail.com (cornel panceac)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 08:02:53 +0200
Subject: Installation guide - another comment
In-Reply-To: <49C5A566.3080703@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49C5A566.3080703@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: 

or: how to install fedora on i586 wich does not have 256 megs of ram?

2009/3/22 Rahul Sundaram 

> Hi
>
>
> http://www.telephone-numbers-uk.com/how-to-install-linux-fedora-on-a-i586-system.html
>
> Rahul
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
Linux counter #213090
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From a.badger at gmail.com  Sun Mar 22 06:36:21 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 23:36:21 -0700
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49C5DC65.7050405@gmail.com>

satya komaragiri wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I am a final year undergraduate student from India and I plan to apply
> for Google Summer of Code. I would like to implement a Docbook editor.
> I discussed this idea with Mr. Yaakov Nemoy (cc'ed in this mail) who
> has agreed and is guiding me through the process.
> 
> The Docbook editor will make it easy to write documentation through a
> wysiwyg interface. Since Docbook has a great collection of XSLs[1] it
> will be easy to convert it to HTML and write a web based editor.
> 
> My research has pointed me to Beacon[2], which is a similar editor for
> GuideXML (Gentoo's documentation format). It uses an XSLT engine to
> transform XML to HTML and vice versa. I contacted the developer of
> this project and it seems like this project has been in hibernation
> for couple of months or so. But the codebase is quite developed and
> should be easy to work with. The developers were also making it a
> generic plug-able framework for easy integration of other doc types.
> 
> Since it is a web-based editor, we can integrate this into the Fedora
> documentation site for easy editing and creation.
> 
What are you going to integrate with?  Zikula?  Meediawiki?

-Toshio


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From kgs at esilibrary.com  Sun Mar 22 12:54:13 2009
From: kgs at esilibrary.com (Karen Schneider)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 08:54:13 -0400
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: 
References: <91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

2009/3/22 Yaakov Nemoy 

> 2009/3/21 Matthew Daniels :
>
>> Satya,
>>
>> A docbook XML editor, especially web-based as you propose, could
>> definitely
>> be useful for the docs team. I don't think it would totally eliminate the
>> need to know XML, but it doesn't need to. Just giving a way for
>> contributers
>> to write content without having to learn a rich markup language would
>> probably mean we could recruit more people and get things done faster.
>>
>> Keep us updated on your progress!
>>
>
> I've also found that for some people (myself included) that having WSYWIG
> and XML side by side can work as a good on the job learning aid. You could
> certainly market it as away for beginners to get used to working with XML.


I almost wrote that in my earlier post, and concur with Yaakov. Being able
to see the code is also good for diagnostics (for both the human and machine
editors).

If you need people to contribute comments about why this would be valuable,
feel free to contact me.


-- 
-- 
| Karen G. Schneider
| Community Librarian
| Equinox Software Inc. "The Evergreen Experts"
| Toll-free: 1.877.Open.ILS (1.877.673.6457) x712
| kgs at esilibrary.com
| Web: http://www.esilibrary.com
| Be a part of the Evergreen International Conference, May 20-22, 2009!
| http://www.solinet.net/evergreen
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From satya.komaragiri at gmail.com  Sun Mar 22 14:20:41 2009
From: satya.komaragiri at gmail.com (satya komaragiri)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:50:41 +0530
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I apologize for the delay in reply.

On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 12:33 AM, Matthew Daniels  wrote:
> Satya,
>
> A docbook XML editor, especially web-based as you propose, could definitely
> be useful for the docs team. I don't think it would totally eliminate the
> need to know XML, but it doesn't need to. Just giving a way for contributers
> to write content without having to learn a rich markup language would
> probably mean we could recruit more people and get things done faster.
>

Very true, that is the motivation behind this project.

> Keep us updated on your progress!

Sure!



2009/3/22 Yaakov Nemoy :

> I've also found that for some people (myself included) that having WSYWIG
> and XML side by side can work as a good on the job learning aid. You could
> certainly market it as away for beginners to get used to working with XML.
>
> -Yaakov
Yes, that's true. These kind of tools usually have a source view as
well where you can edit the XML itself real time. And see the changed
back in the wysiwyg view. These can help people relate to the XML and
its corresponding wysiwyg window



2009/3/22 Toshio Kuratomi :

> What are you going to integrate with?  Zikula?  Meediawiki?
>
> -Toshio

By integrate I meant we could host it on the Fedora Docs website and
allow it to interact  with the CVS. An approval module can also be
implemented to ensure the quality of the documentation. Its just an
editor that can be added anywhere in the page. So it could be added to
the normal flow of any framework.

On the other hand, this tool can also be used an application on a
system which will then primarily become a UI alternative to vim and
PSGML on emacs.

Mediawiki will require a wiki format parser. But we are looking for
docbook in this case. Fedora docs + Zikula + Docbook editor would be
optimal.




2009/3/22 Karen Schneider :
> I almost wrote that in my earlier post, and concur with Yaakov. Being able
> to see the code is also good for diagnostics (for both the human and machine
> editors).
>
> If you need people to contribute comments about why this would be valuable,
> feel free to contact me.

Thanks  Karel, That will be very useful to build up my case.


Regards,
Satya Komaragiri



From satya.komaragiri at gmail.com  Sun Mar 22 14:36:30 2009
From: satya.komaragiri at gmail.com (satya komaragiri)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:06:30 +0530
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	<146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <146c63b10903220736i36afb130yf400df97e046360d@mail.gmail.com>

> Thanks ?Karel, That will be very useful to build up my case.

Sorry Karen! My bad.

Regards
Satya



From harvey at eccnet.com  Sun Mar 22 15:29:29 2009
From: harvey at eccnet.com (Betty Harvey)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:29:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	<146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62866.207.168.47.25.1237735769.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>

Sorry Satya - I am late to the party (discussion).  A really good web
based XML (docbook, DITA and generic) editor would be really nice.
A few of the desktop XML editors (XMetal and Arbortext Editors)
endeavored to create a web-based generic web-based editor with
limited success.

Just Systems is still marketing their product XMAX and it looks
promising but unfortunately it only runs on a Windows-based server
(not good).

There is another editor called XOpus that looks pretty promising as
well.  I have played with this one a little and it looks pretty good
but lacks some of the functionality that is needed for the non-XML
savvy author/editor and it crashes  when using Mozilla which makes it
a non-starter for most environments.

I think that an editor that can used in a content management (I am
using this loosely) system such as Drupal would be very appealing.
There is an XML module for displaying XML in Drupal but nothing
that provides a structured editing environment.

Good luck and I look forward to hearing more about your project
as it moves forward!

Betty


> Hello,
>
> I apologize for the delay in reply.
>
> On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 12:33 AM, Matthew Daniels 
> wrote:
>> Satya,
>>
>> A docbook XML editor, especially web-based as you propose, could
>> definitely
>> be useful for the docs team. I don't think it would totally eliminate
>> the
>> need to know XML, but it doesn't need to. Just giving a way for
>> contributers
>> to write content without having to learn a rich markup language would
>> probably mean we could recruit more people and get things done faster.
>>
>
> Very true, that is the motivation behind this project.
>
>> Keep us updated on your progress!
>
> Sure!
>
>
>
> 2009/3/22 Yaakov Nemoy :
>
>> I've also found that for some people (myself included) that having
>> WSYWIG
>> and XML side by side can work as a good on the job learning aid. You
>> could
>> certainly market it as away for beginners to get used to working with
>> XML.
>>
>> -Yaakov
> Yes, that's true. These kind of tools usually have a source view as
> well where you can edit the XML itself real time. And see the changed
> back in the wysiwyg view. These can help people relate to the XML and
> its corresponding wysiwyg window
>
>
>
> 2009/3/22 Toshio Kuratomi :
>
>> What are you going to integrate with?  Zikula?  Meediawiki?
>>
>> -Toshio
>
> By integrate I meant we could host it on the Fedora Docs website and
> allow it to interact  with the CVS. An approval module can also be
> implemented to ensure the quality of the documentation. Its just an
> editor that can be added anywhere in the page. So it could be added to
> the normal flow of any framework.
>
> On the other hand, this tool can also be used an application on a
> system which will then primarily become a UI alternative to vim and
> PSGML on emacs.
>
> Mediawiki will require a wiki format parser. But we are looking for
> docbook in this case. Fedora docs + Zikula + Docbook editor would be
> optimal.
>
>
>
>
> 2009/3/22 Karen Schneider :
>> I almost wrote that in my earlier post, and concur with Yaakov. Being
>> able
>> to see the code is also good for diagnostics (for both the human and
>> machine
>> editors).
>>
>> If you need people to contribute comments about why this would be
>> valuable,
>> feel free to contact me.
>
> Thanks  Karel, That will be very useful to build up my case.
>
>
> Regards,
> Satya Komaragiri
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 410-787-9200 FAX: 9830
Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. |
harvey at eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/xmlug/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/



From satya.komaragiri at gmail.com  Sun Mar 22 16:38:13 2009
From: satya.komaragiri at gmail.com (satya komaragiri)
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:08:13 +0530
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <62866.207.168.47.25.1237735769.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	<146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
	<62866.207.168.47.25.1237735769.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
Message-ID: <146c63b10903220938t43791d81r7f419c14e39e789d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Betty,

On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Betty Harvey  wrote:
> Sorry Satya - I am late to the party (discussion). ?A really good web
> based XML (docbook, DITA and generic) editor would be really nice.
> A few of the desktop XML editors (XMetal and Arbortext Editors)
> endeavored to create a web-based generic web-based editor with
> limited success.

Thanks for mailing :) You are not late and feedback is always welcome.

> Just Systems is still marketing their product XMAX and it looks
> promising but unfortunately it only runs on a Windows-based server
> (not good).
>
> There is another editor called XOpus that looks pretty promising as
> well. ?I have played with this one a little and it looks pretty good
> but lacks some of the functionality that is needed for the non-XML
> savvy author/editor and it crashes ?when using Mozilla which makes it
> a non-starter for most environments.
>

Also, unfortunately, neither of these editors is Open Sourced/Free.


> I think that an editor that can used in a content management (I am
> using this loosely) system such as Drupal would be very appealing.
> There is an XML module for displaying XML in Drupal but nothing
> that provides a structured editing environment.
>

The Docbook editor will be just like TinyMCE or FCKEditor. This can be
embedded anywhere in the webpage and a back-end can be hooked into it
to perform XSLT operations. The target save points etc are fully
customizable. Examples of this would be Wordpress which uses TinyMCE
or Drupal itself where there is a TInyMCE add on.

> Good luck and I look forward to hearing more about your project
> as it moves forward!
>
> Betty
>

Thanks!

Satya



From jfearn at redhat.com  Mon Mar 23 00:23:32 2009
From: jfearn at redhat.com (Jeff Fearn)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:23:32 +1000
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49C6D684.5060900@redhat.com>

satya komaragiri wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I am a final year undergraduate student from India and I plan to apply
> for Google Summer of Code. I would like to implement a Docbook editor.
> I discussed this idea with Mr. Yaakov Nemoy (cc'ed in this mail) who
> has agreed and is guiding me through the process.
> 
> The Docbook editor will make it easy to write documentation through a
> wysiwyg interface. Since Docbook has a great collection of XSLs[1] it
> will be easy to convert it to HTML and write a web based editor.
> 
> My research has pointed me to Beacon[2], which is a similar editor for
> GuideXML (Gentoo's documentation format). It uses an XSLT engine to
> transform XML to HTML and vice versa. I contacted the developer of
> this project and it seems like this project has been in hibernation
> for couple of months or so. But the codebase is quite developed and
> should be easy to work with. The developers were also making it a
> generic plug-able framework for easy integration of other doc types.
> 
> Since it is a web-based editor, we can integrate this into the Fedora
> documentation site for easy editing and creation.
> 
> It would be very nice if the Docs team could provide some feedback on
> what they feel about  a web-based GUI editor which would eliminate the
> need for knowing the Docbook XML format. If I am given a go ahead, I
> would like to put this up as a Feature.
> 
> Regards,
> Satya Komaragiri
> 
> 
> [1]  Existing XSL for Docbook:
> http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookXslStylesheets
> [2]  Beacon: http://beacon.kix.in/
> 

Have you considered?

Web based access to eclipse editor:

http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/eclifox

Visual DocBook editor for eclipse:

http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/HowToCreateAVisualDocBookEditorIn10Minutes

Combine the two:



Ew java, I feel dirty ... but someone had to ask :(

Cheers, Jeff.

-- 
Jeff Fearn 
Software Engineer
Engineering Operations
Red Hat, Inc
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From ccurran at redhat.com  Mon Mar 23 06:07:43 2009
From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:07:43 +1000
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49C7272F.7080105@redhat.com>

satya komaragiri wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am a final year undergraduate student from India and I plan to apply
> for Google Summer of Code. I would like to implement a Docbook editor.
> I discussed this idea with Mr. Yaakov Nemoy (cc'ed in this mail) who
> has agreed and is guiding me through the process.
>
> The Docbook editor will make it easy to write documentation through a
> wysiwyg interface. Since Docbook has a great collection of XSLs[1] it
> will be easy to convert it to HTML and write a web based editor.
>
> My research has pointed me to Beacon[2], which is a similar editor for
> GuideXML (Gentoo's documentation format). It uses an XSLT engine to
> transform XML to HTML and vice versa. I contacted the developer of
> this project and it seems like this project has been in hibernation
> for couple of months or so. But the codebase is quite developed and
> should be easy to work with. The developers were also making it a
> generic plug-able framework for easy integration of other doc types.
>
> Since it is a web-based editor, we can integrate this into the Fedora
> documentation site for easy editing and creation.
>
> It would be very nice if the Docs team could provide some feedback on
> what they feel about  a web-based GUI editor which would eliminate the
> need for knowing the Docbook XML format. If I am given a go ahead, I
> would like to put this up as a Feature.
>
> Regards,
> Satya Komaragiri
>
>
> [1]  Existing XSL for Docbook:
> http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookXslStylesheets
> [2]  Beacon: http://beacon.kix.in/
>
>   
I say good luck to you, Satya.

No, seriously, I hope you are successful.

Just some tips I've gleaned from similar projects that have failed:
* Don't extend the spec. It is the downfall of most XML 
editor/interpreter projects that the developers involved decide to add 
substantial amounts of metadata or additional tags into the XML.
* Avoid directional and positional data. If you include lots of 
positional data (like openoffice does) other interpreters will struggle 
and it will undermine a core tenet of DocBook, single sourcing. The 
easiest way to avoid this is to use a html/CSS approach. We all know 
tables are bad because too much of the positional data is hard coded at 
the wrong level. When display data is stored separately your code is 
more portable and easier to single source.
* Use existing tools. I don't know how many times I have seen someone 
rewrite an XML parser or similar but it is quite a few. I like your 
approach of using XLTS, stick with it :)

Good luck,
Chris

-- 
Chris Curran 
Technical Writer for Virtualization and Emerging Technologies
Phone: +61735148302 (UTC+10)
Brisbane, Australia. Red Hat, Inc. 




From diegobz at gmail.com  Mon Mar 23 11:30:35 2009
From: diegobz at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Diego_B=FArigo_Zacar=E3o?=)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:30:35 -0300
Subject: Release Notes translations
Message-ID: <6600c1b10903230430v56db6166v874e37f651e2b027@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Can someone, please, tell me why all the Release Notes translations (PO
files) were deleted?

http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes.git?a=tree;f=po

Regards

-- 
Diego B?rigo Zacar?o
http://diegobz.net
Linux User #402589
USE SOFTWARE LIVRE
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Mar 23 11:43:03 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 07:43:03 -0400
Subject: Beta Announcement Ready?
Message-ID: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hey folks, just took a look at the Beta Announcement[1] and it looks
good to me.  Are we ready to let this one fly or is anyone still
pondering a few additional changes?

Eric

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F11_Beta_Announcement
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From rpjday at crashcourse.ca  Mon Mar 23 11:55:20 2009
From: rpjday at crashcourse.ca (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 07:55:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Beta Announcement Ready?
In-Reply-To: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Eric Christensen wrote:

> Hey folks, just took a look at the Beta Announcement[1] and it looks
> good to me.  Are we ready to let this one fly or is anyone still
> pondering a few additional changes?
>
> Eric
>
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F11_Beta_Announcement

  everything at the link:

http://fedoraproject.org/get-prerelease

still seems to refer to the alpha release.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry:
    Have classroom, will lecture.

http://crashcourse.ca                          Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
========================================================================



From rpjday at crashcourse.ca  Mon Mar 23 11:56:05 2009
From: rpjday at crashcourse.ca (Robert P. J. Day)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 07:56:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Beta Announcement Ready?
In-Reply-To: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Eric Christensen wrote:

> Hey folks, just took a look at the Beta Announcement[1] and it looks
> good to me.  Are we ready to let this one fly or is anyone still
> pondering a few additional changes?
>
> Eric
>
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F11_Beta_Announcement

  never mind -- i just realized this was apparently a pre-release
announcement.  need more coffee.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry:
    Have classroom, will lecture.

http://crashcourse.ca                          Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
========================================================================



From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Mar 23 12:48:03 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:48:03 -0400
Subject: Release Notes translations
In-Reply-To: <6600c1b10903230430v56db6166v874e37f651e2b027@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6600c1b10903230430v56db6166v874e37f651e2b027@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090323124803.GF5964@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 08:30:35AM -0300, Diego B?rigo Zacar?o wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Can someone, please, tell me why all the Release Notes translations (PO files)
> were deleted?
> 
> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes.git?a=tree;f=po

http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes.git?p=docs/release-notes.git;a=commit;h=e96b2f205132eae81877da40cf194be1f5ae0cd9

Looks like Ruediger did this some days ago, but I'm not sure why.  No
one should be removing content en masse from these repositories.  I'll
look into it and see if I can reverse the effects.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Mar 23 12:54:28 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:54:28 -0400
Subject: Beta Announcement Ready?
In-Reply-To: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090323125428.GG5964@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 07:43:03AM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> Hey folks, just took a look at the Beta Announcement[1] and it looks
> good to me.  Are we ready to let this one fly or is anyone still
> pondering a few additional changes?
> 
> Eric
> 
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F11_Beta_Announcement

Much of the feature callout in this announcement is lacking
information that would help users understand the importance of what's
found in F11 Beta.  I see a lot of cut and paste from the abbreviated
Feature List without explanations.  I've provided a few fixes -- can
someone revisit this page and, without making the list too long, add
just a smidge more info?  See my recent changes for examples.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From satya.komaragiri at gmail.com  Mon Mar 23 13:16:02 2009
From: satya.komaragiri at gmail.com (satya komaragiri)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:46:02 +0530
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <49C6D684.5060900@redhat.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<49C6D684.5060900@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <146c63b10903230616q706d1e61raf1cffd5f059f897@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jeff,

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 5:53 AM, Jeff Fearn  wrote:
> Have you considered?
>
> Web based access to eclipse editor:
>
> http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/eclifox
>
> Visual DocBook editor for eclipse:
>
> http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/HowToCreateAVisualDocBookEditorIn10Minutes
>
> Combine the two:
>
> 
>
> Ew java, I feel dirty ... but someone had to ask :(
>
> Cheers, Jeff.

Thanks for the links. I did not see them before. But I still feel
using PHP or python will be better and will ensure portability.
Moreover, Beacon can be integrated more easily in any page and no
extra setup is required.  And also, some people won't feel dirty while
using it ;)

Regards,
Satya



From satya.komaragiri at gmail.com  Mon Mar 23 14:02:35 2009
From: satya.komaragiri at gmail.com (satya komaragiri)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:32:35 +0530
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <49C7272F.7080105@redhat.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<49C7272F.7080105@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <146c63b10903230702o71288d73w569623c2e930c23b@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Chris,

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Christopher Curran  wrote:
> I say good luck to you, Satya.
>
> No, seriously, I hope you are successful.

Thanks a lot :)
>
> Just some tips I've gleaned from similar projects that have failed:
> * Don't extend the spec. It is the downfall of most XML editor/interpreter
> projects that the developers involved decide to add substantial amounts of
> metadata or additional tags into the XML.

Yes, we'll keep that in mind. All we are doing is transforming the XML
to HTML using XSLT and the HTML format will just be suiting our needs
so we can use it in the editor. The output XML will be standard
without any unwanted changes.

> * Avoid directional and positional data. If you include lots of positional
> data (like openoffice does) other interpreters will struggle and it will
> undermine a core tenet of DocBook, single sourcing. The easiest way to avoid
> this is to use a html/CSS approach. We all know tables are bad because too
> much of the positional data is hard coded at the wrong level. When display
> data is stored separately your code is more portable and easier to single
> source.

That is the agenda. We do plan to go the HTML/CSS way (Beacon already
does that). Tables will be included only if the content writer
himself/herself wants the Docbook XML to contain a table.

> * Use existing tools. I don't know how many times I have seen someone
> rewrite an XML parser or similar but it is quite a few. I like your approach
> of using XLTS, stick with it :)

Thanks, we might need to modify the XSLs a bit to suit our
requirements but we won't be re-inventing the wheels.

>
> Good luck,
> Chris
>

Regards,
Satya



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Mon Mar 23 15:04:52 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:04:52 -0400
Subject: Beta Announcement Ready?
References: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090323125428.GG5964@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul W. Frields" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: Beta Announcement Ready?

> can someone revisit this page and, without making
> the list too long, add just a smidge more info?

I have to admit, I''ve been somehwat going the other way.  An awful lot of 
the features this release are technically interesting, but pretty much 
non-events for most users.  On the flip side, some of the development 
changes (and there are many) are really important to their particular 
audience.  This is perhaps more critical in the beta release notes, which 
have been getting similar gardening.

I've been struggling, though, with the beta release notes.  There are many, 
many changes for developers, and many of those changes require specific 
action.  But I've been a little reluctant to make the beta "one page" too 
gangly for a relatively small audience.  On the other hand, some of the 
developers have been very helpful in providing, sometimes extensive, 
content.  Again, I've been a little timid about whacking out their work and 
leaving it only in the somewhat lower profile GA release notes.

--McD



From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Mon Mar 23 15:10:19 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:10:19 -0400
Subject: Beta Announcement Ready?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090323125428.GG5964@localhost.localdomain>
	
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:04 AM, John J. McDonough  wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul W. Frields" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 8:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Beta Announcement Ready?
>
>> can someone revisit this page and, without making
>> the list too long, add just a smidge more info?
>
> I have to admit, I''ve been somehwat going the other way. ?An awful lot of
> the features this release are technically interesting, but pretty much
> non-events for most users. ?On the flip side, some of the development
> changes (and there are many) are really important to their particular
> audience. ?This is perhaps more critical in the beta release notes, which
> have been getting similar gardening.


Typically our beta users, while on the whole not as technically savvy
as our alpha users, are pretty technical. I'd argue that those
"technically interesting" features are important to show off in beta,
perhaps even more so than final release.



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Mar 23 15:31:16 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 21:01:16 +0530
Subject: Beta Announcement Ready?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<20090323125428.GG5964@localhost.localdomain>	
	
Message-ID: <49C7AB44.1020308@fedoraproject.org>

David Nalley wrote:

> Typically our beta users, while on the whole not as technically savvy
> as our alpha users, are pretty technical. I'd argue that those
> "technically interesting" features are important to show off in beta,
> perhaps even more so than final release.

Exactly. It is also more press worthy if you explain it in simple terms.
Concentrate on answering the question of how is this useful?

Rahul



From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Mar 23 16:03:53 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric H Christensen)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:03:53 -0400
Subject: FW: Fwd: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from
 dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
Message-ID: <258717.2361231237824233423.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>

FYI...


>just an fyi that it looks like zikula (at least the core) is now
>available in fedora's repos (or will be as soon as mirrors sync)
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: Koji Build System 
>Date: Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 8:09 AM
>Subject: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from
>dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
>To: mikeb at fedoraproject.org, jkeating at fedoraproject.org,
>notting at fedoraproject.org, katzj at fedoraproject.org,
>ke4qqq at fedoraproject.org
>
>
>Package: zikula
>NVR: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10
>User: bodhi
>Status: complete
>Tag Operation: moved
>From Tag: dist-f10-updates-candidate
>Into Tag: dist-f10-updates
>
>zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from
>dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi



From satya.komaragiri at gmail.com  Mon Mar 23 18:45:26 2009
From: satya.komaragiri at gmail.com (satya komaragiri)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 00:15:26 +0530
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <146c63b10903230702o71288d73w569623c2e930c23b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<49C7272F.7080105@redhat.com>
	<146c63b10903230702o71288d73w569623c2e930c23b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <146c63b10903231145s2cecb0cem5d13500c1e12f1c3@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I think I'll apply for this project now the application phase for
summer of code has started. :)

Yaakov has discussed this project with me and has been advising me so
far. But this project will need a mentor who is familiar with the
functioning of docs team to better guide me. Is anyone available to
mentor this project? Can anyone guide me to someone who is available?

Regards,
Satya



From kwade at redhat.com  Mon Mar 23 19:09:54 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:09:54 -0700
Subject: Beta Announcement Ready?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090323125428.GG5964@localhost.localdomain>
	
Message-ID: <20090323190954.GC4569@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:04:52AM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul W. Frields" 
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 8:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Beta Announcement Ready?
>
>> can someone revisit this page and, without making
>> the list too long, add just a smidge more info?
>
> I have to admit, I''ve been somehwat going the other way.  An awful lot 
> of the features this release are technically interesting, but pretty much 
> non-events for most users.  On the flip side, some of the development  
> changes (and there are many) are really important to their particular  
> audience.  This is perhaps more critical in the beta release notes, which 
> have been getting similar gardening.
>
> I've been struggling, though, with the beta release notes.  There are 
> many, many changes for developers, and many of those changes require 
> specific action.  But I've been a little reluctant to make the beta "one 
> page" too gangly for a relatively small audience.  On the other hand, 
> some of the developers have been very helpful in providing, sometimes 
> extensive, content.  Again, I've been a little timid about whacking out 
> their work and leaving it only in the somewhat lower profile GA release 
> notes.

You can give a short explanation and a link to the active in-progress
beat page.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Mon Mar 23 19:13:09 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:13:09 -0700
Subject: Beta Announcement Ready?
In-Reply-To: <49C7AB44.1020308@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090323125428.GG5964@localhost.localdomain>
	
	
	<49C7AB44.1020308@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <20090323191309.GD4569@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 09:01:16PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> David Nalley wrote:
> 
> > Typically our beta users, while on the whole not as technically savvy
> > as our alpha users, are pretty technical. I'd argue that those
> > "technically interesting" features are important to show off in beta,
> > perhaps even more so than final release.
> 
> Exactly. It is also more press worthy if you explain it in simple terms.
> Concentrate on answering the question of how is this useful?

We are working to reach a larger audience with the Beta and Previews.
We have to be careful that we don't alienate them.  This two-pronged
approach is valuable -- explain deep technical matters in a simple
enough way for the wider audience, then link to an appropriate beat page.

This is a way to make the beats more active and useful, as a place
developers can show off package work sooner and more in their control;
as more than just a dumping place for content that 'eventually' makes
it in to the release notes.  There is a natural opportunity from the
beat to link back to feature pages, which fill this similar purpose of
showing work sooner and more (pro)actively.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Mar 23 21:06:01 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:06:01 -0400
Subject: Beta Announcement Ready?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1237808583.12420.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090323125428.GG5964@localhost.localdomain>
	
Message-ID: <1237842361.12420.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 11:04 -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Paul W. Frields" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 8:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Beta Announcement Ready?
> 
> > can someone revisit this page and, without making
> > the list too long, add just a smidge more info?
> 
> I have to admit, I''ve been somehwat going the other way.

It seems that there is a lot of energy behind this but a lot of
different thoughts about how to do it.  How about this...  

Let's put the announcement up on Gobby and meet (tonight or tomorrow or
during our regular Wednesday meeting) and get everyone together and
looking at the document at the same time and discuss the changes and
ideas.

Eric
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From r.landmann at redhat.com  Mon Mar 23 22:36:03 2009
From: r.landmann at redhat.com (Ruediger Landmann)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 08:36:03 +1000
Subject: Release Notes translations
In-Reply-To: <6600c1b10903230430v56db6166v874e37f651e2b027@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6600c1b10903230430v56db6166v874e37f651e2b027@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49C80ED3.7050508@redhat.com>

Diego B?rigo Zacar?o wrote:
> Can someone, please, tell me why all the Release Notes translations 
> (PO files) were deleted?
(CC-ing to fedora-trans-list, since other translators may be wondering 
about  this as well)

They haven't been deleted; the po files for the Fedora 10 Release Notes 
were moved to a separate git branch as we prepare for Fedora 11. See 
here: 
http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes.git?p=docs/release-notes.git;a=tree;f=po;hb=f10

The .pot files for the Fedora 11 Release Notes have not yet been 
generated, as the document is still under development. You can see a 
test-build here: http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/Release_Notes

Note that the Fedora 11 Release Notes are being built in Publican, so 
the structure of the .po files will therefore be a little different as 
well. If you have any questions about this, I'll do my best to answer them.

Cheers,
Ruediger




From dimitris at glezos.com  Mon Mar 23 23:52:42 2009
From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:52:42 +0200
Subject: Release Notes translations
In-Reply-To: <49C80ED3.7050508@redhat.com>
References: <6600c1b10903230430v56db6166v874e37f651e2b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<49C80ED3.7050508@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <6d4237680903231652x13355bbbw7dec681e1371b980@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Ruediger Landmann
 wrote:
> Diego B?rigo Zacar?o wrote:
>>
>> Can someone, please, tell me why all the Release Notes translations (PO
>> files) were deleted?
>
> They haven't been deleted; the po files for the Fedora 10 Release Notes were
> moved to a separate git branch as we prepare for Fedora 11. See here:
> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes.git?p=docs/release-notes.git;a=tree;f=po;hb=f10

May I suggest a heads-up to fedora-trans-list before landing big
changes. It's always a good idea. =)

Also, note that I'm still waiting for a patch that adds support for
Publican documents for Transifex. Is there a plan behind this change
in vital Fedora documents that takes translators into consideration?

-d


> The .pot files for the Fedora 11 Release Notes have not yet been generated,
> as the document is still under development. You can see a test-build here:
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/Release_Notes
>
> Note that the Fedora 11 Release Notes are being built in Publican, so the
> structure of the .po files will therefore be a little different as well. If
> you have any questions about this, I'll do my best to answer them.



-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/

"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--



From r.landmann at redhat.com  Tue Mar 24 00:54:11 2009
From: r.landmann at redhat.com (Ruediger Landmann)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:54:11 +1000
Subject: Release Notes translations
In-Reply-To: <6d4237680903231652x13355bbbw7dec681e1371b980@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6600c1b10903230430v56db6166v874e37f651e2b027@mail.gmail.com>	<49C80ED3.7050508@redhat.com>
	<6d4237680903231652x13355bbbw7dec681e1371b980@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49C82F33.4090103@redhat.com>

Dimitris Glezos wrote:
> May I suggest a heads-up to fedora-trans-list before landing big
> changes. It's always a good idea. =)
>   
Yep; that was my bad.
> Also, note that I'm still waiting for a patch that adds support for
> Publican documents for Transifex. Is there a plan behind this change
> in vital Fedora documents that takes translators into consideration?
>   
I'm not sure that I understand the question... translators have 
successfully been checking in changes to the Common Content sections of 
Publican itself, which are structured exactly the same way as the 
documents that Publican creates.

Cheers
Ruediger




From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Tue Mar 24 11:13:05 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 07:13:05 -0400
Subject: Install Guide
Message-ID: 

I pushed up the first PDF of what will be the F11 Install Guide in
case you wish to peruse, critique, edit, or contribute.
To give you an idea of our timeline we hope to have a usable (but not
necessarily edited) Install Guide by the beta so that QA can use the
Install Guide in the installation testing.

A number of notable things make this worth checking out.
* The transition to publican has been made
* Significant content has been pulled from the RHEL IG thanks to the
content being licensed under a free license (previously under OPL with
a NC clause, and thus didn't meet Fedora's standard of freedom) and
Rudi doing tons of work.
* The current install guide is 172 pages, that's a significant
addition to previous install guides.

http://ke4qqq.fedorapeople.org/Installation_Guide.pdf

I will try and keep this updated regularly as we inch closer to the
beta, and eventually to release.



From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Mar 24 13:00:23 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:00:23 -0400
Subject: Release Notes translations
In-Reply-To: <75db4b7e0903231831j60f4fd4bu4e2a0eed8c272fae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6600c1b10903230430v56db6166v874e37f651e2b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<49C80ED3.7050508@redhat.com>
	<6d4237680903231652x13355bbbw7dec681e1371b980@mail.gmail.com>
	<75db4b7e0903231831j60f4fd4bu4e2a0eed8c272fae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090324130023.GA17040@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:31:14AM +1000, Asgeir Frimannsson wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Dimitris Glezos  wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Ruediger Landmann
> >  wrote:
> >> Diego B?rigo Zacar?o wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Can someone, please, tell me why all the Release Notes translations (PO
> >>> files) were deleted?
> >>
> >> They haven't been deleted; the po files for the Fedora 10 Release Notes were
> >> moved to a separate git branch as we prepare for Fedora 11. See here:
> >> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes.git?p=docs/release-notes.git;a=tree;f=po;hb=f10
> >
> > May I suggest a heads-up to fedora-trans-list before landing big
> > changes. It's always a good idea. =)
> >
> > Also, note that I'm still waiting for a patch that adds support for
> > Publican documents for Transifex. Is there a plan behind this change
> > in vital Fedora documents that takes translators into consideration?
> 
> As far as I understand publican, one of the major benefits of this
> toolchain *is* translations. Hence, supporting Transifex on the
> infrastructure side should be very easy. A simple recipe:
> 
> 1) In the toplevel 'Makefile' read the OTHER_LANGS variable to get a
> list of target-languages (e.g. ja-JP gu-IN)
> 2) For each of these languages, there is a sub-directory (e.g.
> ./ja-JP,/ ./gu-IN/) that reflects the exact directory-layout of the
> ./pot/ directory (containing the POT templates).
> 3) Present this nicely with statistics in the Transifex UI and allow
> submissions.
> 
> So, getting info out of publican is easy. The tricky part is that
> Transifex 0.5 took a 'minor shortcut' by designing the application (at
> least the UI) around the concept of 'one PO file pr component'. There
> seems to be some support for additional files pr language, but this is
> not a 'simple patch' and requires cooperation from the core
> development team. I'm happy to assist with publican support if we find
> a solution for multiple files in general within Transifex.
> 
> We have a Fedora L10N Infrastructure team meeting later today where I
> will put this on the agenda.

From what I understood, this was not the case in Transifex 0.5, and it
does have some abstract notion of "data sets" that can encompass more
than one PO file for a particular module.  In the same way, more than
one PO file for a particular collection can be parsed for statistics.

Am I correct about this?  I thought I read this in the L10n
Infrastructure team meeting notes too, and that the changes needed
were not extraordinary.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Mar 24 18:58:23 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:58:23 -0700
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: 
References: <91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: <20090324185823.GC16319@calliope.phig.org>

On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 08:54:13AM -0400, Karen Schneider wrote:

> If you need people to contribute comments about why this would be valuable,
> feel free to contact me.

Would you be willing to help mentor through the proposal process?

We need many hands to help work with the students on making the best
proposal.  That means reading it early, commenting often, and so
forth.  If you have good experience with documentation, content or
knowledge management, herding cats, etc., then you can help mentor at
this stage.

(For the person paired with Satya as a mentor, anyone willing could do
it, but needs to be prepared to do a few hours of work every week in
self-learning if not familiar with the Fedora Project the way an old
timer is.)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Mar 24 19:52:09 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:52:09 -0700
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090324195209.GD16319@calliope.phig.org>

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 03:03:16PM -0400, Matthew Daniels wrote:
>
> Keep us updated on your progress!

A great way to keep updated is to volunteer as a mentor and help make
the proposal the best it can be.

A good proposal needs a realistic scope that fits within the Summer's
schedule, and a milestone-based schedule to go with it.  It usually
comes from iterating with several mentors over proposal details.

If you have a half-hour here or there for the next few weeks, you can
join the 'Red Hat Summer mentors':

http://groups.google.com/group/redhat-summer-mentors

There is a link to the mentor interface on socghop.appspot.com, that
is where you need to apply to be a mentor so you can view the
proposals, etc.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Mar 24 19:56:45 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:56:45 -0700
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <62866.207.168.47.25.1237735769.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	<146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
	<62866.207.168.47.25.1237735769.squirrel@www.eccnet.com>
Message-ID: <20090324195645.GE16319@calliope.phig.org>

On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:29:29AM -0400, Betty Harvey wrote:

> Good luck and I look forward to hearing more about your project
> as it moves forward!

BTW Betty, your expertise with XML/XSL could really help improve
Satya's proposal.  If you've got an hour or so to read, comment, and
iterate on the proposal over the next few weeks, please consider
applying to be a mentor for the Fedora Project:

http://socghop.appspot.com/mentor/request/google/gsoc2009/redhat

More good mentor information here:

http://groups.google.com/group/redhat-summer-mentors

... and if anyone is interested in mentoring this project, paired with
the student, speak up! ;-)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Mar 24 19:59:34 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:59:34 -0700
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	<146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090324195934.GF16319@calliope.phig.org>

On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 07:50:41PM +0530, satya komaragiri wrote:
> 
> By integrate I meant we could host it on the Fedora Docs website and
> allow it to interact  with the CVS. An approval module can also be
> implemented to ensure the quality of the documentation. Its just an
> editor that can be added anywhere in the page. So it could be added to
> the normal flow of any framework.

I like your simplicity of design so far, building on known components
and making something lightweight that can fit in other web apps.

BTW, the source for documents is no longer a single CVS repository.
We use multiple repositories on fedorahosted.org, such as git and
Subversion.

I wonder if there are some lessons that can be learned from Transifex
and how it can submit to multiple upstream repositories from the
single web application?

/me pokes Glezos ...

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Mar 24 20:10:05 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:10:05 -0700
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <49C7272F.7080105@redhat.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<49C7272F.7080105@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090324201005.GG16319@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 04:07:43PM +1000, Christopher Curran wrote:

> * Don't extend the spec. It is the downfall of most XML  
> editor/interpreter projects that the developers involved decide to add  
> substantial amounts of metadata or additional tags into the XML.

It would be reasonable to start with a specific subset of tags, right?
We could even do a minimized DTD, if that helps.

A few minutes work on the current set of documentation will tell us
which tags are currently used.  For example, I've never seen any of
the OO programming tags (, etc.) used in Fedora Docs.

We don't have to limit the tagset forever, but it would give a smaller
scope for the early/first iterations, and it would follow the rule
suggested above about spec extension.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
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From satya.komaragiri at gmail.com  Tue Mar 24 20:44:30 2009
From: satya.komaragiri at gmail.com (satya komaragiri)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 02:14:30 +0530
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <20090324195934.GF16319@calliope.phig.org>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	<146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090324195934.GF16319@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <146c63b10903241344ybcd625crb8cb189da55dc3b1@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

2009/3/25 Karsten Wade :
>
> I like your simplicity of design so far, building on known components
> and making something lightweight that can fit in other web apps.
>

Thank you :)

> BTW, the source for documents is no longer a single CVS repository.
> We use multiple repositories on fedorahosted.org, such as git and
> Subversion.

Oh! I am sorry. I was trying to do a bit of research on the
documentation process in Fedora and the Documentation guide [1]
pointed me to CVS.


> I wonder if there are some lessons that can be learned from Transifex
> and how it can submit to multiple upstream repositories from the
> single web application?
>

Sure, I'll go through the source code and see how they have done it.

[...]

Regards,
Satya


[1] Documentation Guide:
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/documentation-guide/en_US/



From satya.komaragiri at gmail.com  Tue Mar 24 21:28:19 2009
From: satya.komaragiri at gmail.com (satya komaragiri)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 02:58:19 +0530
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <20090324201005.GG16319@calliope.phig.org>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<49C7272F.7080105@redhat.com>
	<20090324201005.GG16319@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <146c63b10903241428u5a96645ev1c0499357f40180b@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

2009/3/25 Karsten Wade :

> It would be reasonable to start with a specific subset of tags, right?
> We could even do a minimized DTD, if that helps.
>
> A few minutes work on the current set of documentation will tell us
> which tags are currently used. ?For example, I've never seen any of
> the OO programming tags (, etc.) used in Fedora Docs.

This would be very helpful. Also, from within that subset, we may try
and implement the structural tags first and then proceed to formatting
tags like bold, italics etc. This would ensure that the documentation
can be semantically well-formed from the initial stages itself. The
prioritization of tags can be done in collaboration with the docs
team. :)

>
> We don't have to limit the tagset forever, but it would give a smaller
> scope for the early/first iterations, and it would follow the rule
> suggested above about spec extension.


>
> - Karsten

Regards,
Satya



From eric at christensenplace.us  Tue Mar 24 23:11:26 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:11:26 -0400
Subject: Tomorrow's Docs Meeting
Message-ID: <1237936286.27998.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

For tomorrow's meeting I'd like to use Gobby[1] and the Talk[2] server
to complete the Beta Announcement as there seems to be some differing of
opinions on what needs to be included.

Does anyone have any problems with using either of these resources for
tomorrow's meeting?

Eric


[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Gobby
[2] http://talk.fedoraproject.org
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From jwulf at redhat.com  Wed Mar 25 04:12:50 2009
From: jwulf at redhat.com (Joshua Wulf)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:12:50 +1000
Subject: Edit for Documentation Guide
Message-ID: <49C9AF42.6030502@redhat.com>

http://docs.fedoraproject.org/documentation-guide/en_US/sn-sandbox-setup.html

Between step 1 and step 2 we need:

su -c 'yum install php'

Not sure where to lodge a bug on this, or how to edit it myself...

-- 
Joshua J Wulf
Engineering Content Services
Red Hat Asia Pacific

eml: jwulf at redhat.com
tel: +61 (0)7 3514 8140
mob: +61 (0)431 929 675
tmz: GMT +10

(0) - omit when dialling internationally



From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Mar 25 04:43:25 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 00:43:25 -0400
Subject: Tomorrow's Docs Meeting
In-Reply-To: <1237936286.27998.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1237936286.27998.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1237956205.18095.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I have further updated the agenda for tomorrow's meeting[1].  If you
have an opinion on how the Beta Announcement should read or what tool(s)
we will use to publish our documentation then you should be there!  I
have limited the number of items on the meeting agenda to those two
subjects (unless there are any high-priority items that need to be
addressed that are brought to my attention prior to that).  The Beta
Announcement will be finished by the end of the meeting and we will hash
out some ideas on our choice for a documentation tool for the future.

Again, please make sure you have Gobby[2] installed and that it is
operational.  I plan to have the document up on Gobby about an hour
prior to the meeting so you can make sure your settings are correct and
you can see the document.  I'd also like to use the Docs conference room
(2008) on the Talk server[3] to speed through some ideas.  Please verify
that you can access this server as well.  If you have any problems or
questions please let me know.  I'm planning on working from my home
office tomorrow which means I should be up on IRC (in #fedora-docs) for
most of the day and will also be next to my phone (on Talk 510-2043) if
you would like to test your connection or have any questions.

I appreciate everyone's participation in this most excellent Project!

Thanks,
Eric


[1]
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Steering_Committee_meetings
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Gobby
[3] http://talk.fedoraproject.org
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From noriko at redhat.com  Wed Mar 25 05:59:46 2009
From: noriko at redhat.com (Noriko Mizumoto)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 15:59:46 +1000
Subject: Edit for Documentation Guide
In-Reply-To: <49C9AF42.6030502@redhat.com>
References: <49C9AF42.6030502@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49C9C852.60406@redhat.com>

Joshua Wulf ????????:
> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/documentation-guide/en_US/sn-sandbox-setup.html 
> 
> 
> Between step 1 and step 2 we need:
> 
> su -c 'yum install php'
> 
> Not sure where to lodge a bug on this, or how to edit it myself...

Filed, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492053.
Thank you for your help Josh!

noriko

> 



From diegobz at gmail.com  Wed Mar 25 10:40:21 2009
From: diegobz at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Diego_B=FArigo_Zacar=E3o?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:40:21 -0300
Subject: Release Notes translations
In-Reply-To: <49C80ED3.7050508@redhat.com>
References: <6600c1b10903230430v56db6166v874e37f651e2b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<49C80ED3.7050508@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <6600c1b10903250340i1413c422j319067604a69e728@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Ruediger Landmann wrote:

> Diego B?rigo Zacar?o wrote:
>
>> Can someone, please, tell me why all the Release Notes translations (PO
>> files) were deleted?
>>
> (CC-ing to fedora-trans-list, since other translators may be wondering
> about  this as well)
>
> They haven't been deleted; the po files for the Fedora 10 Release Notes
> were moved to a separate git branch as we prepare for Fedora 11. See here:
> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes.git?p=docs/release-notes.git;a=tree;f=po;hb=f10
>
> The .pot files for the Fedora 11 Release Notes have not yet been generated,
> as the document is still under development. You can see a test-build here:
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/Release_Notes
>
> Note that the Fedora 11 Release Notes are being built in Publican, so the
> structure of the .po files will therefore be a little different as well. If
> you have any questions about this, I'll do my best to answer them.


Thanks for the clarification. Just make sure of merging all the old PO files
with the new ones to F11, when you create them.

Regards

-- 
Diego B?rigo Zacar?o
http://diegobz.net
Linux User #402589
USE SOFTWARE LIVRE
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Mar 25 16:33:42 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 09:33:42 -0700
Subject: Tomorrow's Docs Meeting
In-Reply-To: <1237956205.18095.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1237936286.27998.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1237956205.18095.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090325163342.GW16319@calliope.phig.org>

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:43:25AM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> I have further updated the agenda for tomorrow's meeting[1].  If you
> have an opinion on how the Beta Announcement should read or what tool(s)
> we will use to publish our documentation then you should be there! 

I have an update that is a potential show stopper.  According to this
page:

https://translate.fedoraproject.org/tx/projects/docs-release-notes/master/

... building with Publican means no translation using common L10n
infrastructure.  Each translator would have to 'git clone' the
repository or otherwise submit PO files more manually.

So that's a patch to Transifex needed for Publican; a few patches to
Publican to make it produce RPMs compliant to Fedora Packaging
Guidelines; and package freeze is coming very quickly on 14 April.

> I'd also like to use the Docs conference room
> (2008) on the Talk server[3] to speed through some ideas.  

Some alarm bells went off last time we used the Talk server and made
decisions.  I heard from a few people who were surprised about the
process and missed the follow-up to the mailing list.  I don't think a
summary of that discussion quite made it to the list.  We have that as
a minimum requirement.

The issue with using Talk for a regular team meeting is that it raises
barriers to participation, segregates the discussion, and has no
recording/logging capability.

Even if recording were enabled, we would still have the barrier of
spoken language being much harder to understand to non-native
speakers.  Where an IRC log can be run through a translation engine to
get the gist of a discussion, that is nearly impossible with an audio
meeting.

I understand and agree with the value we get from high bandwidth
verbal discussions, but is the added value worth all that we lose?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Mar 25 17:07:44 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:07:44 -0400
Subject: Tomorrow's Docs Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20090325163342.GW16319@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1237936286.27998.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1237956205.18095.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090325163342.GW16319@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <1238000864.20751.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 09:33 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:43:25AM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> > I have further updated the agenda for tomorrow's meeting[1].  If you
> > have an opinion on how the Beta Announcement should read or what tool(s)
> > we will use to publish our documentation then you should be there! 
> 
> I have an update that is a potential show stopper.  According to this
> page:
> 
> https://translate.fedoraproject.org/tx/projects/docs-release-notes/master/
> 
> ... building with Publican means no translation using common L10n
> infrastructure.  Each translator would have to 'git clone' the
> repository or otherwise submit PO files more manually.
> 
> So that's a patch to Transifex needed for Publican; a few patches to
> Publican to make it produce RPMs compliant to Fedora Packaging
> Guidelines; and package freeze is coming very quickly on 14 April.

So those are pretty big problems.  We need to hash this problem out at
tonight's meeting.

> > I'd also like to use the Docs conference room
> > (2008) on the Talk server[3] to speed through some ideas.  
> 
> Some alarm bells went off last time we used the Talk server and made
> decisions.  I heard from a few people who were surprised about the
> process and missed the follow-up to the mailing list.  I don't think a
> summary of that discussion quite made it to the list.  We have that as
> a minimum requirement.
> 
> The issue with using Talk for a regular team meeting is that it raises
> barriers to participation, segregates the discussion, and has no
> recording/logging capability.
> 
> Even if recording were enabled, we would still have the barrier of
> spoken language being much harder to understand to non-native
> speakers.  Where an IRC log can be run through a translation engine to
> get the gist of a discussion, that is nearly impossible with an audio
> meeting.
> 
> I understand and agree with the value we get from high bandwidth
> verbal discussions, but is the added value worth all that we lose?

While I agree that there may be a higher barrier to participation I
think the benefits of having a real-time conversation that isn't typing
based would help with discussing issues.  I agree that we need to have a
scribe taking minutes to post to the list and to the wiki to maintain a
record of what has happened.  Right now we routinely carry items from
week to week because the discussion takes so long via typed words.  Plus
I feel as if there is a greater risk at misunderstanding someone's typed
words when written in a quick manner like we do in IRC.

What is keeping people from participating utilizing Talk?

> - Karsten

Eric
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From simon at zikula.org  Wed Mar 25 17:33:23 2009
From: simon at zikula.org (Simon Birtwistle)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:33:23 -0000
Subject: Fwd: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from
	dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
In-Reply-To: <258717.2361231237824233423.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>
References: <258717.2361231237824233423.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>
Message-ID: <002e01c9ad6f$cd43fd90$67cbf8b0$@org>

Lukas on the Zikula team is looking at packaging the modules.  I have on my list completion of the theme, and the publishing module.  At some point, I also have to puppetize the configuration file.  After that, we're sorted.


Simon

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fedora-docs-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-docs-list-
> bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Eric H Christensen
> Sent: 23 March 2009 16:04
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Subject: FW: Fwd: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from dist-
> f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
> Importance: Low
> 
> FYI...
> 
> 
> >just an fyi that it looks like zikula (at least the core) is now
> >available in fedora's repos (or will be as soon as mirrors sync)
> >
> >
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >From: Koji Build System 
> >Date: Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 8:09 AM
> >Subject: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from
> >dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
> >To: mikeb at fedoraproject.org, jkeating at fedoraproject.org,
> >notting at fedoraproject.org, katzj at fedoraproject.org,
> >ke4qqq at fedoraproject.org
> >
> >
> >Package: zikula
> >NVR: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10
> >User: bodhi
> >Status: complete
> >Tag Operation: moved
> >From Tag: dist-f10-updates-candidate
> >Into Tag: dist-f10-updates
> >
> >zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from
> >dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
> 
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.28/2022 - Release Date:
> 03/25/09 07:16:00




From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Wed Mar 25 17:39:54 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:39:54 -0400
Subject: Fwd: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from 
	dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
In-Reply-To: <002e01c9ad6f$cd43fd90$67cbf8b0$@org>
References: <258717.2361231237824233423.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>
	<002e01c9ad6f$cd43fd90$67cbf8b0$@org>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Simon Birtwistle  wrote:
> Lukas on the Zikula team is looking at packaging the modules. ?I have on my list completion of the theme, and the publishing module. ?At some point, I also have to puppetize the configuration file. ?After that, we're sorted.
>
>
> Simon
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: fedora-docs-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-docs-list-
>> bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Eric H Christensen
>> Sent: 23 March 2009 16:04
>> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
>> Subject: FW: Fwd: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from dist-
>> f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
>> Importance: Low
>>
>> FYI...
>>
>>
>> >just an fyi that it looks like zikula (at least the core) is now
>> >available in fedora's repos (or will be as soon as mirrors sync)
>> >
>> >
>> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> >From: Koji Build System 
>> >Date: Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 8:09 AM
>> >Subject: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from
>> >dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
>> >To: mikeb at fedoraproject.org, jkeating at fedoraproject.org,
>> >notting at fedoraproject.org, katzj at fedoraproject.org,
>> >ke4qqq at fedoraproject.org
>> >
>> >
>> >Package: zikula
>> >NVR: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10
>> >User: bodhi
>> >Status: complete
>> >Tag Operation: moved
>> >From Tag: dist-f10-updates-candidate
>> >Into Tag: dist-f10-updates
>> >
>> >zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from
>> >dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
>>
>> --
>> fedora-docs-list mailing list
>> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
>> To unsubscribe:
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.28/2022 - Release Date:
>> 03/25/09 07:16:00
>
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>

Yes - while I wish we were at this point several weeks ago, I am happy
with where we are. Lukas from Zikula has pushed up a package for
review. Toshio has agreed to review it and already started working
with Lukas on the process. I hope to push up a few modules this
weekend as well. I think we are making adequate process, though I feel
I am a constraint. Hopefully Lukas will open that up quite a bit.



From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Mar 25 20:45:50 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:45:50 -0700
Subject: Tomorrow's Docs Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20090325163342.GW16319@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1237936286.27998.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1237956205.18095.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090325163342.GW16319@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <20090325204550.GH16319@calliope.phig.org>

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 09:33:42AM -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:43:25AM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> > I have further updated the agenda for tomorrow's meeting[1].  If you
> > have an opinion on how the Beta Announcement should read or what tool(s)
> > we will use to publish our documentation then you should be there! 
> 
> I have an update that is a potential show stopper.  According to this
> page:
> 
> https://translate.fedoraproject.org/tx/projects/docs-release-notes/master/
> 
> ... building with Publican means no translation using common L10n
> infrastructure.  Each translator would have to 'git clone' the
> repository or otherwise submit PO files more manually.

Sorry, sorry, this was my brain breaking.  Please allow me to correct
myself before someone else does. :)

**Submitting translations works** to a Publican-based document from
  Transifex.

**Statistics tracking on the web page doesn't work** because Transifex
  doesn't support the the PO file structure that Publican uses.

This is not a blocker for getting translations in.

It is a regression of the translator experience.  Instead of using the
WebUI for all of their progress tracking, translators have to use
command line tools.

Recall that the majority of translators are non-native English
speakers; teaching them a one-off method to use for just this release
is a lot more work than patching Transifex.

Also, recall that while documents have a lot of strings to translate
compared to software, document modules are a small percentage of the
total number of modules a translation team is working with.  It's a
disproportionately large % of the work effort, and requires
translators and team leads to leave the WebUI for a disproportionately
small % of the modules being tracked.

If we can get some help to patch Transifex to handle Publican-based PO
files for statistics, this would be a big win for all involved.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Mar 25 20:46:30 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:46:30 -0400
Subject: Fwd: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from
	dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <258717.2361231237824233423.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>
	<002e01c9ad6f$cd43fd90$67cbf8b0$@org>
	
Message-ID: <20090325204144.GC14786@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:39:54PM -0400, David Nalley wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Simon Birtwistle  wrote:
> > Lukas on the Zikula team is looking at packaging the modules.  I
> > have on my list completion of the theme, and the publishing
> > module.  At some point, I also have to puppetize the configuration
> > file.  After that, we're sorted.

Two questions about the Zikula packages:

1.  Should Zikula have some sort of SELinux policy module to properly
handle /etc/zikula/config.php?  I installed the zikula package last
night and one of the things I had to change to run the installation
was:

su -c 'chcon -t httpd_sys_content_rw_t /etc/zikula/config.php'

If a module can't or shouldn't be provided for some reason, this may
be worth a README.fedora in %{_docdir}/zikula.  It's not something
that will jump out at some readers.

2.  Zikula appears to want php-mbstring but that's not in the
dependencies.  Should it be?

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Mar 25 20:51:33 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:51:33 -0700
Subject: Fwd: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from
	dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <258717.2361231237824233423.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>
	<002e01c9ad6f$cd43fd90$67cbf8b0$@org>
	
Message-ID: <20090325205133.GI16319@calliope.phig.org>

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:39:54PM -0400, David Nalley wrote:

> Yes - while I wish we were at this point several weeks ago, I am happy
> with where we are. Lukas from Zikula has pushed up a package for
> review. Toshio has agreed to review it and already started working
> with Lukas on the process. I hope to push up a few modules this
> weekend as well. I think we are making adequate process, though I feel
> I am a constraint. Hopefully Lukas will open that up quite a bit.

Do you need more help with packaging?

May be some other folks here who would help, even just to get the
initial SRPM and spec file together if they don't want to maintain the
package.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Wed Mar 25 20:59:45 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:59:45 -0400
Subject: Fwd: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from 
	dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
In-Reply-To: <20090325204144.GC14786@localhost.localdomain>
References: <258717.2361231237824233423.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>
	<002e01c9ad6f$cd43fd90$67cbf8b0$@org>
	
	<20090325204144.GC14786@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

Inline reply

2009/3/25 Paul W. Frields :
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:39:54PM -0400, David Nalley wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Simon Birtwistle  wrote:
>> > Lukas on the Zikula team is looking at packaging the modules. ?I
>> > have on my list completion of the theme, and the publishing
>> > module. ?At some point, I also have to puppetize the configuration
>> > file. ?After that, we're sorted.
>
> Two questions about the Zikula packages:
>
> 1. ?Should Zikula have some sort of SELinux policy module to properly
> handle /etc/zikula/config.php? ?I installed the zikula package last
> night and one of the things I had to change to run the installation
> was:
>
> su -c 'chcon -t httpd_sys_content_rw_t /etc/zikula/config.php'
>
> If a module can't or shouldn't be provided for some reason, this may
> be worth a README.fedora in %{_docdir}/zikula. ?It's not something
> that will jump out at some readers.

We have the following logic in a %pre statement that supposedly
handles that - however it's been on and off my machines (and herlos)
that it's a possibility that it's not sufficient to deal with the
issue:
semanage fcontext -a -t httpd_var_run_t
%{_sysconfdir}/%{name}/config.php || semanage fcontext -m -t
httpd_var_run_t %{_sysconfdir}/%{name}/config.php || :

We probably do need to create a policy for it long term.


>
> 2. ?Zikula appears to want php-mbstring but that's not in the
> dependencies. ?Should it be?

It is possible that we missed a dependency, I'll take a look shortly.





Thanks for taking a look at this - more eyes are welcome.



From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Wed Mar 25 21:04:43 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:04:43 -0400
Subject: Fwd: zikula-1.1.1-12.fc10 successfully moved from 
	dist-f10-updates-candidate into dist-f10-updates by bodhi
In-Reply-To: <20090325205133.GI16319@calliope.phig.org>
References: <258717.2361231237824233423.JavaMail.servlet@perfora>
	<002e01c9ad6f$cd43fd90$67cbf8b0$@org>
	
	<20090325205133.GI16319@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: 

2009/3/25 Karsten Wade :
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:39:54PM -0400, David Nalley wrote:
>
>> Yes - while I wish we were at this point several weeks ago, I am happy
>> with where we are. Lukas from Zikula has pushed up a package for
>> review. Toshio has agreed to review it and already started working
>> with Lukas on the process. I hope to push up a few modules this
>> weekend as well. I think we are making adequate process, though I feel
>> I am a constraint. Hopefully Lukas will open that up quite a bit.
>
> Do you need more help with packaging?
>
> May be some other folks here who would help, even just to get the
> initial SRPM and spec file together if they don't want to maintain the
> package.

Absolutely - we have 8 public modules that need to be packaged and at
least 1 if not 2 fedora infrastructure specific packages that need to
be packaged.

Content
Version 3.0.3 - source tagged in SVN here:
http://code.zikula.org/content/browser/tags/version-3.0.3
Lukas currently has this one up for review:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492091

CoType
Version 1.0.0 - download here:
http://www.elfisk.dk/index.php?module=Folder&func=view&mode=folder.view&fold
erid=52 - the source is probably in SVN somewhere, but not sure where.

crpTag
I'd take the head: http://code.zikula.org/crptag/browser/trunk, but just in
case it is non functional perhaps we could package 0.1.3 too?
http://code.zikula.org/crptag/browser/tags/crpTag_0.1.3

MediaAttach
SVN Head: http://code.zikula.org/mediaattach/browser/trunk/MediaAttach

mediashare
SVN Head: http://code.zikula.org/mediashare/browser/trunk

menutree
Version 2.0.1: http://code.zikula.org/bianor/browser/tags/menutree/2.0.1

MultiHook
SVN Head: http://code.zikula.org/multihook/browser/trunk/MultiHook

scribite
Version 3.1: http://code.zikula.org/scribite/browser/tags/scribite/3.1

Custom Modules (no public source)
==============
FASAuth
FedoraDocs
Static_Docs



From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Mar 25 21:34:47 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:34:47 -0400
Subject: Publican Issues
Message-ID: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I've been discussing Publican problems since December of 2008.  Many
have been discussing it longer.  At tonight's (today's) Docs Project
meeting we will discuss Publican and how to go forward.  Right now I can
see five options for moving forward:

1. Use Publican for a guide but munge through to an RPM that Fedora will
consume; use jjmcd's script or a new .spec file
2. Fork Publican and remove the variable that puts the version # in the
name
3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules
4. Use Publican for HTML + PDF and fedora-doc-utils for RPM
5. Use f-doc-utils exclusively

Be thinking about this for tonight's meeting.

Thanks,
Eric
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Wed Mar 25 21:44:54 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:44:54 -0400
Subject: Tomorrow's Docs Meeting
In-Reply-To: <1237936286.27998.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1237936286.27998.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1238017494.20751.73.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2009-03-24 at 19:11 -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> For tomorrow's meeting I'd like to use Gobby[1] and the Talk[2] server
> to complete the Beta Announcement as there seems to be some differing of
> opinions on what needs to be included.
> 
> Does anyone have any problems with using either of these resources for
> tomorrow's meeting?
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Gobby
> [2] http://talk.fedoraproject.org

Change in plans.  We will start tonight's meeting in Gobby (no Talk) to
finish the Beta Announcement and will then move the meeting over to IRC.
I would like to get everyone's input on the Beta Announcement so please
sign in and let's get that finished tonight.  The document is up now so
you should be able to log in and see everything.

Thanks,
Eric
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From stickster at gmail.com  Wed Mar 25 21:52:53 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:52:53 -0400
Subject: Tomorrow's Docs Meeting
In-Reply-To: <1238000864.20751.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1237936286.27998.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1237956205.18095.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090325163342.GW16319@calliope.phig.org>
	<1238000864.20751.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090325215253.GE14786@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:07:44PM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 09:33 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:43:25AM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> > > I have further updated the agenda for tomorrow's meeting[1].  If you
> > > have an opinion on how the Beta Announcement should read or what tool(s)
> > > we will use to publish our documentation then you should be there! 
> > 
> > I have an update that is a potential show stopper.  According to this
> > page:
> > 
> > https://translate.fedoraproject.org/tx/projects/docs-release-notes/master/
> > 
> > ... building with Publican means no translation using common L10n
> > infrastructure.  Each translator would have to 'git clone' the
> > repository or otherwise submit PO files more manually.
> > 
> > So that's a patch to Transifex needed for Publican; a few patches to
> > Publican to make it produce RPMs compliant to Fedora Packaging
> > Guidelines; and package freeze is coming very quickly on 14 April.
> 
> So those are pretty big problems.  We need to hash this problem out at
> tonight's meeting.

Yes, I've been asking about the changes needed to Transifex to support
Publican.  The Transifex team maintains that they are fairly minor but
they are looking for help to make those changes because they have a
number of other priorities to handle on their roadmap.  Some of the
Red Hat I18n folks who are being asked to devote time to making the
changes say that there's a more substantial chunk of work needed.

Not being a coder I have no way to tell what's correct, but Dimitris
Glezos pointed me directly at this code, that I think allows multi-POT
group stats calculation.  If I understand Dimitris correctly, the
changes required to the back end and UI to do delivery and submission
of multi-POT modules would be in a similar vein.

http://dpaste.com/18451/

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From kwade at redhat.com  Wed Mar 25 23:01:09 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:01:09 -0700
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <146c63b10903241344ybcd625crb8cb189da55dc3b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	<146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090324195934.GF16319@calliope.phig.org>
	<146c63b10903241344ybcd625crb8cb189da55dc3b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090325230109.GK16319@calliope.phig.org>

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 02:14:30AM +0530, satya komaragiri wrote:

> documentation process in Fedora and the Documentation guide [1]
> pointed me to CVS.

> [1] Documentation Guide:
> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/documentation-guide/en_US/

That document is unmaintained and almost criminally out of date.

Anyone interested in taking it over and updating it?  We could start a
new project on fedorahosted.org for it.

For other orphaned content of interest:

http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/?root=docs

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From anross at redhat.com  Wed Mar 25 23:09:53 2009
From: anross at redhat.com (Andrew Ross)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:09:53 +1000
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <20090325230109.GK16319@calliope.phig.org>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>	<146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>	<20090324195934.GF16319@calliope.phig.org>	<146c63b10903241344ybcd625crb8cb189da55dc3b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090325230109.GK16319@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <49CAB9C1.1070408@redhat.com>

Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 02:14:30AM +0530, satya komaragiri wrote:
>
>   
>> documentation process in Fedora and the Documentation guide [1]
>> pointed me to CVS.
>>     
>
>   
>> [1] Documentation Guide:
>> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/documentation-guide/en_US/
>>     
>
> That document is unmaintained and almost criminally out of date.
>   
Lol and it doesn't have a Gedit and XML section :P

-- 
Andrew Ross
Associate Quality Engineer
Red Hat Asia Pacific
Phone: 3514 8331
E-mail: anross at redhat.com
GPG-KeyID 0xCF53DC64 

"This must be Thursday... I never could get the hang of Thursdays" 
Arthur Dent in HHGTTG, Douglas Adams.



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Wed Mar 25 23:10:10 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:10:10 -0400
Subject: Publican Issues
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Christensen" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:34 PM
Subject: Publican Issues

> meeting we will discuss Publican and how to go forward.  Right now I can
> see five options for moving forward:
>
> 1. Use Publican for a guide but munge through to an RPM that Fedora will
> consume; use jjmcd's script or a new .spec file
> 2. Fork Publican and remove the variable that puts the version # in the
> name
> 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules
> 4. Use Publican for HTML + PDF and fedora-doc-utils for RPM
> 5. Use f-doc-utils exclusively

Let me provide some pre-meeting input here.

Last week I got thinking that I needed to learn more about how we implement 
multiple languages.  It wasn't clear to me that Publican creates these 
various languanges in the same way f-doc-utils does, and I wanted to be 
confident that I could come up with an equivalent RPM.  I was very confident 
about a single-language RPM, but I just don't understand how the language 
gets selected.

So I tried to add a couple of languages to the F11 release notes and I kept 
getting errors.  I also tried making a small Publican doc and adding 
languages, same errors.  I fought this for a while without success, but last 
night rudi grabbed my sources and discovered that the error was a known bug 
(I had just assumed I was doing something wrong) to be fixed in 0.44.  He 
had a workaround, and I was able to get Publican to generate RPMs for my 
test languages.

Well, that is the first problem.  Publican generates an RPM per language. 
Probably not insurmountable to munge these together, especially if we are 
rebuilding the RPM.  But I ran into some strangeness.  It looks as if during 
the rpmbuild Publican treats the non-English languages differently.  I still 
have more to explore to completely understand this, but it does make me less 
confident that we can beat it into submission quickly.

That being said, I still, for obvious selfish reasons, lean toward 
Publican-oriented solutions as opposed to f-docs-utils solutions.  Even if 
we have to use a forked Publican, I think we are better positioned for F12 
when we might have our needs rolled back in.

--McD



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Wed Mar 25 23:14:08 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:14:08 -0400
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com><91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com><146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com><20090324195934.GF16319@calliope.phig.org><146c63b10903241344ybcd625crb8cb189da55dc3b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090325230109.GK16319@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karsten Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor

>> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/documentation-guide/en_US/
>
> That document is unmaintained and almost criminally out of date.

Does it make sense to let it stay out of date until we sort how we are 
actually going to move forward with Publican (if that is possible) and 
Zikula?

--McD





From ccurran at redhat.com  Wed Mar 25 23:22:09 2009
From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:22:09 +1000
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49CABCA1.3050004@redhat.com>

Eric Christensen wrote:
> I've been discussing Publican problems since December of 2008.  Many
> have been discussing it longer.  At tonight's (today's) Docs Project
> meeting we will discuss Publican and how to go forward.  Right now I can
> see five options for moving forward:
>
> 1. Use Publican for a guide but munge through to an RPM that Fedora will
> consume; use jjmcd's script or a new .spec file
> 2. Fork Publican and remove the variable that puts the version # in the
> name
> 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules
> 4. Use Publican for HTML + PDF and fedora-doc-utils for RPM
> 5. Use f-doc-utils exclusively
>
> Be thinking about this for tonight's meeting.
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>   
6. Remove the release notes from anaconda. <
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>
Message-ID: <49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>

John J. McDonough wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Christensen"
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:34 PM
> Subject: Publican Issues
> 
>> meeting we will discuss Publican and how to go forward.  Right now I can
>> see five options for moving forward:
>>
>> 1. Use Publican for a guide but munge through to an RPM that Fedora will
>> consume; use jjmcd's script or a new .spec file
>> 2. Fork Publican and remove the variable that puts the version # in the
>> name

No need to do this, I'll move a copy internal and you can have the fedora
hosted repo if you want.

>> 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules

Good luck getting the blind to see.

>> 4. Use Publican for HTML + PDF and fedora-doc-utils for RPM
>> 5. Use f-doc-utils exclusively
> 
> Let me provide some pre-meeting input here.
> 
> Last week I got thinking that I needed to learn more about how we
> implement multiple languages.  It wasn't clear to me that Publican
> creates these various languanges in the same way f-doc-utils does, and I
> wanted to be confident that I could come up with an equivalent RPM.  I
> was very confident about a single-language RPM, but I just don't
> understand how the language gets selected.
> 
> So I tried to add a couple of languages to the F11 release notes and I
> kept getting errors.  I also tried making a small Publican doc and
> adding languages, same errors.  I fought this for a while without
> success, but last night rudi grabbed my sources and discovered that the
> error was a known bug (I had just assumed I was doing something wrong)
> to be fixed in 0.44.  He had a workaround, and I was able to get
> Publican to generate RPMs for my test languages.

0.44 is in the testing repo waiting for enough karma to be pushed live. I
asked for it to be pushed live.

> Well, that is the first problem.  Publican generates an RPM per
> language. Probably not insurmountable to munge these together,
> especially if we are rebuilding the RPM.  But I ran into some
> strangeness.  It looks as if during the rpmbuild Publican treats the
> non-English languages differently.  I still have more to explore to
> completely understand this, but it does make me less confident that we
> can beat it into submission quickly.

In the SVN repo look at old_srpm2 and old_spec2 in
publican-redhat/make/Makefile.Redhat. This is how we used to publish docs
for RHEL5. The related xsl files are in publican-redhat/xsl/

It very quickly became an unmaintainable approach for books of any size.

People get really pissed when they have to d/l 200MB to get a typo fixed
when they only read 1 language. This will be exacerbated for fedora where
many more languages are supported.

This is only kept around because we have to support the shipped books, it
really is a sub optimal distribution method and limits you ability to have
nifty yum groups and such.

i.e. 'yum installgroup latin-docs' for all you Latin docs needs.

Marginally useful for Release Notes for obvious reasons, however, being
able to ship the English to beta testers before the translations is likely
reduce the impact of errata on translations should they occur.

Cheers, Jeff.

-- 
Jeff Fearn 
Software Engineer
Engineering Operations
Red Hat, Inc
Freedom ... courage ... Commitment ... ACCOUNTABILITY



From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Mar 26 03:29:48 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:29:48 -0700
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>
	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49CAF6AC.2070306@gmail.com>

Jeff Fearn wrote:

>>> 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules
> 
> Good luck getting the blind to see.
> 
thanks for all the love everyone!


-Toshio

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From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Mar 26 04:15:31 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:45:31 +0530
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>
	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>

Jeff Fearn wrote:
> 
>>> 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules
> 
> Good luck getting the blind to see.

We as a community need to show more respect for each other. Even if you
disagree with something, this is not the way to go about resolving it.

Rahul



From ccurran at redhat.com  Thu Mar 26 05:47:24 2009
From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:47:24 +1000
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>
	<49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Jeff Fearn wrote:
>   
>>>> 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules
>>>>         
>> Good luck getting the blind to see.
>>     
>
> We as a community need to show more respect for each other. Even if you
> disagree with something, this is not the way to go about resolving it.
>
> Rahul
>
>   
Being a roadblock is not resolving it either. There is working with 
developers and there is actively working against them. Respect is earnt, 
not given to the wanting.

Just my .02AUD



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Mar 26 06:02:48 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:32:48 +0530
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>	<49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>
	<49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49CB1A88.5080609@fedoraproject.org>

Christopher Curran wrote:

>>  
> Being a roadblock is not resolving it either. There is working with
> developers and there is actively working against them. Respect is earnt,
> not given to the wanting.

How have you tried to solve the issue so far? Who have you approached?
All is I see is rude remarks and sarcasm. Nothing constructive. That's a
failure even before you get started.

Rahul



From ccurran at redhat.com  Thu Mar 26 06:06:58 2009
From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:06:58 +1000
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CB1A88.5080609@fedoraproject.org>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>	<49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>	<49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>
	<49CB1A88.5080609@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49CB1B82.2030802@redhat.com>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Christopher Curran wrote:
>
>   
>>>  
>>>       
>> Being a roadblock is not resolving it either. There is working with
>> developers and there is actively working against them. Respect is earnt,
>> not given to the wanting.
>>     
>
> How have you tried to solve the issue so far? Who have you approached?
> All is I see is rude remarks and sarcasm. Nothing constructive. That's a
> failure even before you get started.
>
> Rahul
>
>   
I'm a lurker. I sit and watch most of the time. My development and 
documentation work probably sits off your radar. It's where I prefer to 
stay because the more I have to deal with the fedora established 
bureaucracy the less I want to have anything to do with fedora. I am 
doing constructive work for fedora, I just have nothing to do with 
packaging most of the time. Those two things are related.

Chris



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Thu Mar 26 06:16:43 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:46:43 +0530
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CB1B82.2030802@redhat.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>	<49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>	<49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>	<49CB1A88.5080609@fedoraproject.org>
	<49CB1B82.2030802@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49CB1DCB.4060200@fedoraproject.org>

Christopher Curran wrote:
>>   
> I'm a lurker. I sit and watch most of the time. My development and
> documentation work probably sits off your radar. It's where I prefer to
> stay because the more I have to deal with the fedora established
> bureaucracy the less I want to have anything to do with fedora. I am
> doing constructive work for fedora, I just have nothing to do with
> packaging most of the time. Those two things are related.

Nobody is forcing you to work on Fedora but if you or anybody else here
want to solve any problems, you got to be a lot more specific about your
issues and work on resolving them constructively.  Where have you raised
your issues?

Rahul



From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Mar 26 06:09:03 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:09:03 -0700
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>	<49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>
	<49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49CB1BFF.80602@gmail.com>

Christopher Curran wrote:
> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> Jeff Fearn wrote:
>>  
>>>>> 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules
>>>>>         
>>> Good luck getting the blind to see.
>>>     
>>
>> We as a community need to show more respect for each other. Even if you
>> disagree with something, this is not the way to go about resolving it.
>>
>> Rahul
>>
>>   
> Being a roadblock is not resolving it either. There is working with
> developers and there is actively working against them. Respect is earnt,
> not given to the wanting.
> 
Considering that I don't even know what the problem is and no one who's
swinging the hate bat has yet to clarify that on this list or the
packaging list (where everyone in the FPC will see it rather than just
the one randomly subscribed to this list.)  It's hard to see how I can
act as a very effective roadblock.

One note, though: while the FPC tries to implement goals in a way that's
as easy as possible for the developers involved, the goals themselves
are primarily about getting high quality packages to end-users, not
making developers lives easier.  If you have a suggestion for
implementing a goal in a way that is easier for packagers, by all means
make it.  If you just want to complain about how doing things the right
way takes time then you're going to find your complaints get no respect.
  Respect, after all, is earned.

-Toshio

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From jwulf at redhat.com  Thu Mar 26 06:19:19 2009
From: jwulf at redhat.com (Joshua Wulf)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:19:19 +1000
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CB1BFF.80602@gmail.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>	<49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>	<49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>
	<49CB1BFF.80602@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49CB1E67.5060801@redhat.com>

Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> Christopher Curran wrote:
>   
>> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>     
>>> Jeff Fearn wrote:
>>>  
>>>       
>>>>>> 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>> Good luck getting the blind to see.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> We as a community need to show more respect for each other. Even if you
>>> disagree with something, this is not the way to go about resolving it.
>>>
>>> Rahul
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>> Being a roadblock is not resolving it either. There is working with
>> developers and there is actively working against them. Respect is earnt,
>> not given to the wanting.
>>
>>     
> Considering that I don't even know what the problem is and no one who's
> swinging the hate bat has yet to clarify that on this list or the
> packaging list (where everyone in the FPC will see it rather than just
> the one randomly subscribed to this list.)  It's hard to see how I can
> act as a very effective roadblock.
>
> One note, though: while the FPC tries to implement goals in a way that's
> as easy as possible for the developers involved, the goals themselves
> are primarily about getting high quality packages to end-users, not
> making developers lives easier.  If you have a suggestion for
> implementing a goal in a way that is easier for packagers, by all means
> make it.  If you just want to complain about how doing things the right
> way takes time then you're going to find your complaints get no respect.
>   Respect, after all, is earned.
>
> -Toshio
>
>   
I think that Jeff and Chris are referring to this:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=476471

and possibly this as well:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=482972

Josh

-- 
Joshua J Wulf
Engineering Content Services
Red Hat Asia Pacific

eml: jwulf at redhat.com
tel: +61 (0)7 3514 8140
mob: +61 (0)431 929 675
tmz: GMT +10

(0) - omit when dialling internationally



From oglesbyzm at gmail.com  Thu Mar 26 06:32:17 2009
From: oglesbyzm at gmail.com (Zach Oglesby)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 07:32:17 +0100
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <20090325230109.GK16319@calliope.phig.org>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	<146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090324195934.GF16319@calliope.phig.org>
	<146c63b10903241344ybcd625crb8cb189da55dc3b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090325230109.GK16319@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: 

2009/3/26 Karsten Wade 

> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 02:14:30AM +0530, satya komaragiri wrote:
>
> > documentation process in Fedora and the Documentation guide [1]
> > pointed me to CVS.
>
> > [1] Documentation Guide:
> > http://docs.fedoraproject.org/documentation-guide/en_US/
>
> That document is unmaintained and almost criminally out of date.
>
> Anyone interested in taking it over and updating it?  We could start a
> new project on fedorahosted.org for it.
>
> For other orphaned content of interest:
>
> http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/?root=docs
>
> - Karsten
> --
> Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
> http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
> AD0E0C41
>


I would be willing to help, but I'm not sure I have the experience to take
it over by myself.
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From a.badger at gmail.com  Thu Mar 26 07:12:01 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 00:12:01 -0700
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CB1E67.5060801@redhat.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>	<49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>	<49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>	<49CB1BFF.80602@gmail.com>
	<49CB1E67.5060801@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49CB2AC1.1070504@gmail.com>

Joshua Wulf wrote:
Thanks Joshua,

> I think that Jeff and Chris are referring to this:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=476471
> 
IIUC, this boils down to:
1) Publican creates a different documentation package for each Fedora
Release as it considers them to be separate documents.  ie:
Fedora-10-Security-Guide, Fedora-11-Security-Guide.

2) This means a new package review for each documentation package each
release.

If you're willing to go through a new review each release, there's no
problem.

If you want a single review to cover you for all releases, we need a new
 Guideline.  I think if it's a potential goal to be able to install the
Fedora-10-Security-Guide on Fedora-11, then I'd be against such a
Guideline as separate packages really are what you want.  If it's
specifically a non-goal to do that, then it's a possibility although
changing the name to not have the version in it strikes me as the better
option there.  Following onto that, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want
to use publican to create an initial spec file and then modify it to
meet the specifics of the situation.  This is the workflow for CPAN2RPM,
rpmdev-newspetemplate, and other tools.

Another option is to look at a streamlined set of review items for
publican-created doc packages... We've never explicitly done this but in
practice, people know they don't have to check, for instance, shared
library guidelines when writing and reviewing a pure python module.

> and possibly this as well:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=482972
> 
What's the problem here?  That the .desktop is created inline in the
spec file instead of as a separate file?  If that's all it is, I can
propose to the FPC to amend that.   I can't recall a reason that it had
to be included in the SRPM as a file specifically.

Note that neither of these issues had reached the FPC's radar (they
still haven't, really, as I'm only one member and this isn't the
packaging mailing list) so blaming the FPC as the roadblock is a bit
misplaced.

-Toshio

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From jwulf at redhat.com  Thu Mar 26 07:19:33 2009
From: jwulf at redhat.com (Joshua Wulf)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:19:33 +1000
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CB1E67.5060801@redhat.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>	<49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>	<49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>	<49CB1BFF.80602@gmail.com>
	<49CB1E67.5060801@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49CB2C85.9040606@redhat.com>

Joshua Wulf wrote:
>>   
> I think that Jeff and Chris are referring to this:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=476471
Comment #58 by Jens Petersen:

I am not veto'ing parallel install per se, but maybe it is worth considerng
what is so special about docs packages that warrants/necessitates parallel
install since we don't really do this for any other packages except
libraries/tools needed occasionally for back-compatibility.


The idea here is that people who are using Fedora in a production 
capacity, rather than just as a beta test of RHEL, are able to install 
multiple documentation sets.

The use case would be like this:

I'm a system administrator with a number of different servers on my 
network running different versions of Fedora. Some are internal servers 
and running the ancient Fedora 10. There is one running Fedora 15 that 
I'm intending to upgrade later. The ones on the firewall I run at 
latest-1, and are currently on Fedora 19. I'm running Fedora 20 on my 
personal workstation, and I have a virtual machine running Fedora Rawhide.

On my Fedora 20 workstation I have the documentation for all of these 
different versions installed (F10, F15, F19, F20, Rawhide), so that I 
can refer to the relevant docs in my graphical user environment as I 
administer them remotely via ssh.

That's the idea. It doesn't make much sense if you envision Fedora as a 
RHEL beta test that you scrap each time a new version comes out, but if 
it's a viable OS that can be deployed and used in a production capacity 
like that described above, parallel documentation installation will be 
useful.

What are your thoughts on this?

Josh

-- 
Joshua J Wulf
Engineering Content Services
Red Hat Asia Pacific

eml: jwulf at redhat.com
tel: +61 (0)7 3514 8140
mob: +61 (0)431 929 675
tmz: GMT +10

(0) - omit when dialling internationally



From jwulf at redhat.com  Thu Mar 26 07:31:12 2009
From: jwulf at redhat.com (Joshua Wulf)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:31:12 +1000
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CB2AC1.1070504@gmail.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>	<49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>	<49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>	<49CB1BFF.80602@gmail.com>	<49CB1E67.5060801@redhat.com>
	<49CB2AC1.1070504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49CB2F40.3030301@redhat.com>

Thanks for your response and suggestions Toshio.

I think it's more venting frustration than actually blaming the FPC for 
being a roadblock.

*Anything* that we can do to resolve these issues, keeping in mind the 
limited resources we are working with and the need to work together and 
forge stronger relationships going forward, will be great.

Josh

Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> Joshua Wulf wrote:
> Thanks Joshua,
>
>   
>> I think that Jeff and Chris are referring to this:
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=476471
>>
>>     
> IIUC, this boils down to:
> 1) Publican creates a different documentation package for each Fedora
> Release as it considers them to be separate documents.  ie:
> Fedora-10-Security-Guide, Fedora-11-Security-Guide.
>
> 2) This means a new package review for each documentation package each
> release.
>
> If you're willing to go through a new review each release, there's no
> problem.
>
> If you want a single review to cover you for all releases, we need a new
>  Guideline.  I think if it's a potential goal to be able to install the
> Fedora-10-Security-Guide on Fedora-11, then I'd be against such a
> Guideline as separate packages really are what you want.  If it's
> specifically a non-goal to do that, then it's a possibility although
> changing the name to not have the version in it strikes me as the better
> option there.  Following onto that, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want
> to use publican to create an initial spec file and then modify it to
> meet the specifics of the situation.  This is the workflow for CPAN2RPM,
> rpmdev-newspetemplate, and other tools.
>
> Another option is to look at a streamlined set of review items for
> publican-created doc packages... We've never explicitly done this but in
> practice, people know they don't have to check, for instance, shared
> library guidelines when writing and reviewing a pure python module.
>
>   
>> and possibly this as well:
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=482972
>>
>>     
> What's the problem here?  That the .desktop is created inline in the
> spec file instead of as a separate file?  If that's all it is, I can
> propose to the FPC to amend that.   I can't recall a reason that it had
> to be included in the SRPM as a file specifically.
>
> Note that neither of these issues had reached the FPC's radar (they
> still haven't, really, as I'm only one member and this isn't the
> packaging mailing list) so blaming the FPC as the roadblock is a bit
> misplaced.
>
> -Toshio
>
>   


-- 
Joshua J Wulf
Engineering Content Services
Red Hat Asia Pacific

eml: jwulf at redhat.com
tel: +61 (0)7 3514 8140
mob: +61 (0)431 929 675
tmz: GMT +10

(0) - omit when dialling internationally



From eric at christensenplace.us  Thu Mar 26 12:48:42 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:48:42 -0400
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CB2AC1.1070504@gmail.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com>
	<49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>	<49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com>
	<49CB1BFF.80602@gmail.com> <49CB1E67.5060801@redhat.com>
	<49CB2AC1.1070504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1238071722.9122.11.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2009-03-26 at 00:12 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> Joshua Wulf wrote:
> Thanks Joshua,
> 
> > I think that Jeff and Chris are referring to this:
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=476471
> > 
> IIUC, this boils down to:
> 1) Publican creates a different documentation package for each Fedora
> Release as it considers them to be separate documents.  ie:
> Fedora-10-Security-Guide, Fedora-11-Security-Guide.
> 
> 2) This means a new package review for each documentation package each
> release.
> 
> If you're willing to go through a new review each release, there's no
> problem.

And that's okay for certain documents (i.e. Release Notes, User
Guide,...) that are tied directly to a specific release of Fedora.  The
Security Guide, however, is not.  I'd much prefer the Security Guide
being just that, the Fedora Security Guide and not have to go through
review for each release.

So while it might be nice to include a release number in the package for
some documents it is not appropriate for all.  Publican does not provide
that ability to not use the release number and if it did, and there were
writers who wanted to use the release numbering, I would have already
petitioned the FPC on behalf of the Docs Project to make the change.
So, no, the problem isn't with the FPC's decisions or current rules.

Eric
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From stickster at gmail.com  Thu Mar 26 14:42:36 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:42:36 -0400
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <20090325230109.GK16319@calliope.phig.org>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	<146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090324195934.GF16319@calliope.phig.org>
	<146c63b10903241344ybcd625crb8cb189da55dc3b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090325230109.GK16319@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <20090326144236.GC10723@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 04:01:09PM -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 02:14:30AM +0530, satya komaragiri wrote:
> 
> > documentation process in Fedora and the Documentation guide [1]
> > pointed me to CVS.
> 
> > [1] Documentation Guide:
> > http://docs.fedoraproject.org/documentation-guide/en_US/
> 
> That document is unmaintained and almost criminally out of date.
> 
> Anyone interested in taking it over and updating it?  We could start a
> new project on fedorahosted.org for it.

I've been meaning to make a git repo out of this for a while.  I'm
doing that now, and will request it as a hosted project.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Thu Mar 26 16:06:24 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:06:24 -0400
Subject: F11 Beta Announcment ready
Message-ID: <1238083584.9122.61.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Last night the Docs Project jumped on the Beta Announcement[1] and got
it squared away.  It is up on the wiki[1] and ready to go.

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F11_Beta_Announcement


-- 
Thanks,
Eric Christensen
Fedora Docs Project

Fedora Talk: 5102043                  Phone: 919-424-0063 x 5102043
E-Mail/SIP Address: sparks at fedoraproject.org
IRC: Sparks on freenode.net

GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1
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From satya.komaragiri at gmail.com  Thu Mar 26 18:02:32 2009
From: satya.komaragiri at gmail.com (satya komaragiri)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:32:32 +0530
Subject: Proposal for Implementing a Docbook Editor
In-Reply-To: <20090326144236.GC10723@localhost.localdomain>
References: <146c63b10903210504q1bb67763jc4ec0db41bd053ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<91B4D2D4-702C-49EA-9278-720EB5B44724@gmail.com>
	<146c63b10903220720j7cddc9b5hcba8c71f83b7925d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090324195934.GF16319@calliope.phig.org>
	<146c63b10903241344ybcd625crb8cb189da55dc3b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090325230109.GK16319@calliope.phig.org>
	<20090326144236.GC10723@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <146c63b10903261102r746d6ff8lb69dba003e8a9034@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I have put up a draft of the proposal I plan to submit for GSoC at
http://92.243.3.101/DocBookEditorProposal.txt . It would be very nice
if you could take a look at it and provide me some feedback.

Regards,
Satya



From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Mar 26 19:54:21 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:54:21 -0700
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CB2C85.9040606@redhat.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<3A16D9F8583C409C824A6F6CE3E6E301@Aidan>
	<49CAE372.1070801@redhat.com> <49CB0163.3040809@fedoraproject.org>
	<49CB16EC.7060607@redhat.com> <49CB1BFF.80602@gmail.com>
	<49CB1E67.5060801@redhat.com> <49CB2C85.9040606@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090326195421.GQ16319@calliope.phig.org>

On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 05:19:33PM +1000, Joshua Wulf wrote:

[snip reasonable use case]

> That's the idea. It doesn't make much sense if you envision Fedora as a  
> RHEL beta test that you scrap each time a new version comes out, but if  
> it's a viable OS that can be deployed and used in a production capacity  
> like that described above, parallel documentation installation will be  
> useful.

I find it to be a reasonable use case.  Personally, I would move the
version number after the word "Fedora", to make it clear it is about the
version of the OS not the version of the document.  Otherwise, the
reason for the implementation makes sense.

In fact, I doubt anyone will argue against the use case.  The issue is
that the use case did not surface until the last few weeks, although
obviously it has been part of the Publican design scheme for some
time.  It is rather late in the Fedora 11 lifecycle to make all of
this work, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.  Just much more
"hurry up" work than should have been done.

Preferably, IMO, Publican makes it an option to include the version
number in the package or document name, for reasons well stated
elsewhere.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From kwade at redhat.com  Thu Mar 26 19:58:11 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:58:11 -0700
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CABCA1.3050004@redhat.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49CABCA1.3050004@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20090326195811.GR16319@calliope.phig.org>

On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 09:22:09AM +1000, Christopher Curran wrote:

> 6. Remove the release notes from anaconda. < logical solution as most users do not want to waste more time installing  
> than they already must.

The release notes have been removed from Anaconda for several releases
of Fedora.  Unless you mean something else?

> 7. Branch stack the packaging committee out with people who adhere to  
> more liberal packaging guidelines.

Must ... not ... feed ... the ... trolls ...

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From ccurran at redhat.com  Fri Mar 27 01:10:18 2009
From: ccurran at redhat.com (Christopher Curran)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:10:18 +1000
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <20090326195811.GR16319@calliope.phig.org>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<49CABCA1.3050004@redhat.com>
	<20090326195811.GR16319@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <49CC277A.40207@redhat.com>

Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 09:22:09AM +1000, Christopher Curran wrote:
>
>   
>> 6. Remove the release notes from anaconda. <> logical solution as most users do not want to waste more time installing  
>> than they already must.
>>     
>
> The release notes have been removed from Anaconda for several releases
> of Fedora.  Unless you mean something else?
>
>   
They are removed now? That's awesome. I haven't noticed as all I've been doing is automated installs.




From wolfdreamwalker at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 27 13:57:56 2009
From: wolfdreamwalker at hotmail.com (Wolf DreamWalker)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:57:56 -0400
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49CC277A.40207@redhat.com>
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49CABCA1.3050004@redhat.com>	<20090326195811.GR16319@calliope.phig.org>
	<49CC277A.40207@redhat.com>
Message-ID: 




   Name: Wolf DreamWalker (not a pseudonym)

   Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

   Profession: Software Trainer

   Company: Currently enrolled in the Technical Communications program at Seneca at York, Toronto



   

   Background

    Comfortable with Windows desktop and server products - certified systems engineer Have
several years experience developing and presenting learning materials
to university students and workers within technical areas of various
companies.Have tested fan created missions for games such as Thief and even delved in creating some of the readables.
 Great
believer in KIS (keep it simple) and have found that screen shots, etc.
are excellent learning tools for those of us who are not computer
naturals

   
   Knowledge of Linux / Fedora
    Absolute
Newbie ... less than a week old.  I'm somewhat intimidated by the new
concepts and perceptions encompassing Fedora but I'm excited to be able
to dig into a few area of expertise.
 I've
jumped in with a dual-boot install. I thought that all I had to do was
to install Fedora on freed-up space on a single hard drive already
occupied by Microsoft Vista.  However, I soon discovered that the two
systems handle "primary" drives somewhat differently and that the only
way I could get a viable working copy of Fedora on my computer was to
install it on what Vista designated as part of the "extended" drive
(this variant doesn't appear to be addressed in the installation guide).

   

   Goals - Where I could help

Since I'm so new to Linux and Fedora I am less likely to miss or
overlook steps that a Fedora expert takes for granted.  I'm also more
likely to query what appears to be outdated documentation (e.g. the
software's recommendation to follow what is actually a mandatory
procedure to create a user name and password during installation).  At
the same time, I recognize I have somewhat of a learning curve to
overcome so probably the best place to use me is in testing and editing
of current material. 




   

   Availability

I'm between semesters and have plenty of free time between now and May
9 to devote myself to this project (at least 40 hrs a week).  When I
return to school my time will be limited to only a few hours a week. 



Wolf





   

   

   

   GPG KEYID and fingerprint 

   

   Name: Wolf DreamWalker
   Email: wolfdreamwalker at hotmail.com
   ID: 3117A6BC / DSA / 1024
   Created: 2009-03-26
   Fingerprint:1462 3928 AF44 6770 F616 925D 6EA6 B659 3117 A6BC
   
   Subkeys:6EA6B6593117A6BC (DSA),A0D3380DAD91D537 (EIGamal)

_________________________________________________________________
Share photos with friends on Windows Live Messenger
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650734
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From wolfdreamwalker at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 27 14:00:29 2009
From: wolfdreamwalker at hotmail.com (Wolf DreamWalker)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:00:29 -0400
Subject: Self Introduction
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49CABCA1.3050004@redhat.com>	<20090326195811.GR16319@calliope.phig.org>
	<49CC277A.40207@redhat.com>
	
Message-ID: 


Whoops ... forgot to change the subject title

From: wolfdreamwalker at hotmail.com
To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:57:56 -0400
Subject: RE: Publican Issues










   Name: Wolf DreamWalker (not a pseudonym)

   Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

   Profession: Software Trainer

   Company: Currently enrolled in the Technical Communications program at Seneca at York, Toronto



   

   Background

    Comfortable with Windows desktop and server products - certified systems engineer Have
several years experience developing and presenting learning materials
to university students and workers within technical areas of various
companies.Have tested fan created missions for games such as Thief and even delved in creating some of the readables.
 Great
believer in KIS (keep it simple) and have found that screen shots, etc.
are excellent learning tools for those of us who are not computer
naturals

   
   Knowledge of Linux / Fedora
    Absolute
Newbie ... less than a week old.  I'm somewhat intimidated by the new
concepts and perceptions encompassing Fedora but I'm excited to be able
to dig into a few area of expertise.
 I've
jumped in with a dual-boot install. I thought that all I had to do was
to install Fedora on freed-up space on a single hard drive already
occupied by Microsoft Vista.  However, I soon discovered that the two
systems handle "primary" drives somewhat differently and that the only
way I could get a viable working copy of Fedora on my computer was to
install it on what Vista designated as part of the "extended" drive
(this variant doesn't appear to be addressed in the installation guide).

   

   Goals - Where I could help

Since I'm so new to Linux and Fedora I am less likely to miss or
overlook steps that a Fedora expert takes for granted.  I'm also more
likely to query what appears to be outdated documentation (e.g. the
software's recommendation to follow what is actually a mandatory
procedure to create a user name and password during installation).  At
the same time, I recognize I have somewhat of a learning curve to
overcome so probably the best place to use me is in testing and editing
of current material. 




   

   Availability

I'm between semesters and have plenty of free time between now and May
9 to devote myself to this project (at least 40 hrs a week).  When I
return to school my time will be limited to only a few hours a week. 



Wolf





   

   

   

   GPG KEYID and fingerprint 

   

   Name: Wolf DreamWalker
   Email: wolfdreamwalker at hotmail.com
   ID: 3117A6BC / DSA / 1024
   Created: 2009-03-26
   Fingerprint:1462 3928 AF44 6770 F616 925D 6EA6 B659 3117 A6BC
   
   Subkeys:6EA6B6593117A6BC (DSA),A0D3380DAD91D537 (EIGamal)

Tell the whole story with photos, right from your Messenger window.  Learn how!
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with the whole group, and bring everyone together.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650735
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From laubersm at fedoraproject.org  Fri Mar 27 14:15:35 2009
From: laubersm at fedoraproject.org (Susan Lauber)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:15:35 -0400
Subject: Self Introduction
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1238016887.20751.64.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<49CABCA1.3050004@redhat.com>
	<20090326195811.GR16319@calliope.phig.org> <49CC277A.40207@redhat.com>
	
	
Message-ID: 

Welcome!

With the Fedora 11 Beta scheduled for release "soon" (there is a
schedule here somewhere.....)
The Installation Guide and the User's Guide will need to be verified.
>From your introduction, that sounds like something that might interest
you.  I am sure those team leaders will have more information.
Meanwhile check out:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_content_tasks_for_new_contributors

Internally, the Docs Project is still in need of much cleanup for our
own process pages and documentation but you can now find most of them
in the Docs Project Category on the wiki:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Docs_Project
We know that they have some inconsistancies so please so not be shy
about asking questions.

Again, welcome.

-Susan

2009/3/27 Wolf DreamWalker :
> Whoops ... forgot to change the subject title
>
> ________________________________
> From: wolfdreamwalker at hotmail.com
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:57:56 -0400
> Subject: RE: Publican Issues
>
>
> Name: Wolf DreamWalker (not a pseudonym)
> Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
> Profession: Software Trainer
> Company: Currently enrolled in the Technical Communications program at
> Seneca at York, Toronto
>
>
>
> Background
>
>  Comfortable with Windows desktop and server products - certified systems
> engineer
>  Have several years experience developing and presenting learning materials
> to university students and workers within technical areas of various
> companies.
> Have tested fan created missions for games such as Thief and even delved in
> creating some of the readables.
>  Great believer in KIS (keep it simple) and have found that screen shots,
> etc. are excellent learning tools for those of us who are not computer
> naturals
>
> Knowledge of Linux / Fedora
>
>  Absolute Newbie ... less than a week old.  I'm somewhat intimidated by the
> new concepts and perceptions encompassing Fedora but I'm excited to be able
> to dig into a few area of expertise.
>  I've jumped in with a dual-boot install. I thought that all I had to do was
> to install Fedora on freed-up space on a single hard drive already occupied
> by Microsoft Vista.  However, I soon discovered that the two systems
> handle "primary" drives somewhat differently and that the only way I could
> get a viable working copy of Fedora on my computer was to install it on what
> Vista designated as part of the "extended" drive (this variant doesn't
> appear to be addressed in the installation guide).
>
> Goals - Where I could help
> Since I'm so new to Linux and Fedora I am less likely to miss or overlook
> steps that a Fedora expert takes for granted.  I'm also more likely to
> query what appears to be outdated documentation (e.g. the software's
> recommendation to follow what is actually a mandatory procedure to create a
> user name and password during installation).  At the same time, I recognize
> I have somewhat of a learning curve to overcome so probably the best place
> to use me is in testing and editing of current material.
>
>
>
>
> Availability
> I'm between semesters and have plenty of free time between now and May 9 to
> devote myself to this project (at least 40 hrs a week).  When I return to
> school my time will be limited to only a few hours a week.
>
>
>
> Wolf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> GPG KEYID and fingerprint
>
> Name: Wolf DreamWalker
>
> Email: wolfdreamwalker at hotmail.com
>
> ID: 3117A6BC / DSA / 1024
>
> Created: 2009-03-26
>
> Fingerprint:1462 3928 AF44 6770 F616 925D 6EA6 B659 3117 A6BC
>
> Subkeys:6EA6B6593117A6BC (DSA),A0D3380DAD91D537 (EIGamal)
>
> ________________________________
> Tell the whole story with photos, right from your Messenger window. Learn
> how!
> ________________________________
> Windows Live Messenger makes it easier to stay in touch - learn how!
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS)
Lauber System Solutions, Inc.
http://www.laubersolutions.com
gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE  4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974



From adelessafi at gmail.com  Fri Mar 27 21:03:19 2009
From: adelessafi at gmail.com (Adel ESSAFI)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:03:19 +0100
Subject: introduction
Message-ID: 

Hi list,
I introduce my self. I am Adel ESSAFI a PHD candidate in computer science
and assistant teacher in ESSTT (high school). I was working with redhat and
fedora since 2000.

I have recently discovered symfony (a framework of PHP) whose developpers
always tell that the success of symfony is FIRST due to the rich
documentation! When I browse the web for some documentation about fedora (or
some software), I feel the lack of documentation of fedora. This may
effectively be a serious handicape for fedora users and especially
beginners.

I want to contribute as most as possible in technical redaction
(quicckstart,  help, ....)

I have writen some article (in frech) for linux+ magazine and I try to
publish some post on my blog (below).

I hope that I can help on fedora project

Regards

Adel



http://ilovefedora.blogspot.com/

-- 

PhD candidate in Computer Science
Address
BP 108, Bureau de poste Tunis republique
1001 Tunis
Tunisia
tel: +216 97 246 706
fax: +216 71 391 166
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From kirk202 at q.com  Sat Mar 28 05:04:07 2009
From: kirk202 at q.com (Kirk)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:04:07 -0700
Subject: introduction
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

Adel ESSAFI wrote:
> Hi list,
> I introduce my self. I am Adel ESSAFI a PHD candidate in computer science
> and assistant teacher in ESSTT (high school). I was working with redhat and
> fedora since 2000.
>
> I have recently discovered symfony (a framework of PHP) whose developpers
> always tell that the success of symfony is FIRST due to the rich
> documentation! When I browse the web for some documentation about fedora (or
> some software), I feel the lack of documentation of fedora. This may
> effectively be a serious handicape for fedora users and especially
> beginners.
>
> I want to contribute as most as possible in technical redaction
> (quicckstart,  help, ....)
>
> I have writen some article (in frech) for linux+ magazine and I try to
> publish some post on my blog (below).
>
> I hope that I can help on fedora project
>
> Regards
>
> Adel
>
>
>
> http://ilovefedora.blogspot.com/
>
>   
Welcome Adel,

Suggest you check out #fedora-docs on the IRC and talk with everyone 
about getting started, and were you want to help out.  Most of the team 
leads can usually be found there.

-Kirk



From adelessafi at gmail.com  Sat Mar 28 16:46:09 2009
From: adelessafi at gmail.com (Adel ESSAFI)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 17:46:09 +0100
Subject: introduction
Message-ID: 

Welcome Adel,

Suggest you check out #fedora-docs on the IRC and talk with everyone about
getting started, and were you want to help out. Most of the team leads can
usually be found there.


Hi,


which server do you use in general?



-Kirk




-- 
http://ilovefedora.blogspot.com/

-- 

PhD candidate in Computer Science
Address
BP 108, Bureau de poste Tunis republique
1001 Tunis
Tunisia
tel: +216 97 246 706
fax: +216 71 391 166
-------------- next part --------------
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From kirk202 at q.com  Sat Mar 28 17:54:38 2009
From: kirk202 at q.com (Kirk)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 10:54:38 -0700
Subject: introduction
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

Adel ESSAFI wrote:
> Welcome Adel,
>
> Suggest you check out #fedora-docs on the IRC and talk with everyone about
> getting started, and were you want to help out. Most of the team leads can
> usually be found there.
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
> which server do you use in general?
>
>
>
> -Kirk
>
>
>
>
>   
Sorry about that, go to FreeNode.

-Kirk



From asgeirf at gmail.com  Tue Mar 24 01:31:14 2009
From: asgeirf at gmail.com (Asgeir Frimannsson)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:31:14 +1000
Subject: Release Notes translations
In-Reply-To: <6d4237680903231652x13355bbbw7dec681e1371b980@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6600c1b10903230430v56db6166v874e37f651e2b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<49C80ED3.7050508@redhat.com>
	<6d4237680903231652x13355bbbw7dec681e1371b980@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <75db4b7e0903231831j60f4fd4bu4e2a0eed8c272fae@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Dimitris Glezos  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Ruediger Landmann
>  wrote:
>> Diego B?rigo Zacar?o wrote:
>>>
>>> Can someone, please, tell me why all the Release Notes translations (PO
>>> files) were deleted?
>>
>> They haven't been deleted; the po files for the Fedora 10 Release Notes were
>> moved to a separate git branch as we prepare for Fedora 11. See here:
>> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes.git?p=docs/release-notes.git;a=tree;f=po;hb=f10
>
> May I suggest a heads-up to fedora-trans-list before landing big
> changes. It's always a good idea. =)
>
> Also, note that I'm still waiting for a patch that adds support for
> Publican documents for Transifex. Is there a plan behind this change
> in vital Fedora documents that takes translators into consideration?

As far as I understand publican, one of the major benefits of this
toolchain *is* translations. Hence, supporting Transifex on the
infrastructure side should be very easy. A simple recipe:

1) In the toplevel 'Makefile' read the OTHER_LANGS variable to get a
list of target-languages (e.g. ja-JP gu-IN)
2) For each of these languages, there is a sub-directory (e.g.
./ja-JP,/ ./gu-IN/) that reflects the exact directory-layout of the
./pot/ directory (containing the POT templates).
3) Present this nicely with statistics in the Transifex UI and allow
submissions.

So, getting info out of publican is easy. The tricky part is that
Transifex 0.5 took a 'minor shortcut' by designing the application (at
least the UI) around the concept of 'one PO file pr component'. There
seems to be some support for additional files pr language, but this is
not a 'simple patch' and requires cooperation from the core
development team. I'm happy to assist with publican support if we find
a solution for multiple files in general within Transifex.

We have a Fedora L10N Infrastructure team meeting later today where I
will put this on the agenda.

cheers,
asgeir



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Sun Mar 29 03:54:51 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 09:24:51 +0530
Subject: Enabling Root User For GNOME Display Manager
Message-ID: <49CEF10B.4040204@fedoraproject.org>

Hi

I have add this often requested information to

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Enabling_Root_User_For_GNOME_Display_Manager

Also added it as a reference to

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Desktop_Beat

Please review the changes and edit the wiki if necessary. Thank you for
your feedback.

Rahul



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Sun Mar 29 04:11:22 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 09:41:22 +0530
Subject: Configuring Sudo
Message-ID: <49CEF4EA.4010300@fedoraproject.org>

Hi

Do review

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Configuring_Sudo

Added as reference to desktop beat as well.

Rahul



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Sun Mar 29 04:35:48 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:05:48 +0530
Subject: Reset root password
Message-ID: <49CEFAA4.4040600@fedoraproject.org>

Hi

If anybody can add the steps to reset if the boot loader is password
protected as well, feel free to do so.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Forgotten_Root_Password

Rahul



From rino.mardo at gmail.com  Sun Mar 29 08:09:53 2009
From: rino.mardo at gmail.com (Rino Mardo)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 11:09:53 +0300
Subject: An Introduction
Message-ID: 

Hello, my name is Ferino Mardo but you can call me Rino. I am a
network professional having been in the industry for more than 18
years. I used to be a coder (from assembler to C) but now working as a
network manager. I don't consider myself a newbie though I also don't
call myself a h4ck3r :-) but I do know my way around computers and the
Internet.

I have time available and want to contribute it to this team because
as I see it this is (IMHO) where Fedora needs more help. I don't
really have any formal training in writing only a handful of blogs
here and there but I do know my English language quite well. Never
used docbook nor xml also and this is where I'm hoping I'd learn them
maybe by starting to edit some drafts?

Am looking forward to contribute and hope to "see" you soon!


Regards,

Rino Mardo

Key fingerprint = 71E1 31C1 7CE8 9E5A 295E  36B9 8BE8 C3B5 414B FCBD



From mikkel at infinity-ltd.com  Sun Mar 29 17:57:05 2009
From: mikkel at infinity-ltd.com (Mikkel L. Ellertson)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:57:05 -0500
Subject: Reset root password
In-Reply-To: <49CEFAA4.4040600@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49CEFAA4.4040600@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49CFB671.7070404@infinity-ltd.com>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi
> 
> If anybody can add the steps to reset if the boot loader is password
> protected as well, feel free to do so.
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Forgotten_Root_Password
> 
> Rahul
> 
It needs to be fleshed out, but for a password protested boot
loader, you can do it as long as you can boot from a CD/DVD. Boot
the install media in the rescue mode, chroot to the mounted root
file system, and run passwd to change the root password. (You can
probably grab most of the text from an explanation on how to
re-install Grub.)

I am not sure how the rescue mode handles an encrypted file system.
Will it mount one if you supply the password?

Mikkel
-- 

  Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Sun Mar 29 19:18:50 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 00:48:50 +0530
Subject: Reset root password
In-Reply-To: <49CFB671.7070404@infinity-ltd.com>
References: <49CEFAA4.4040600@fedoraproject.org>
	<49CFB671.7070404@infinity-ltd.com>
Message-ID: <49CFC99A.8070709@fedoraproject.org>

Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> If anybody can add the steps to reset if the boot loader is password
>> protected as well, feel free to do so.
>>
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Forgotten_Root_Password
>>
>> Rahul
>>
> It needs to be fleshed out, but for a password protested boot
> loader, you can do it as long as you can boot from a CD/DVD. Boot
> the install media in the rescue mode, chroot to the mounted root
> file system, and run passwd to change the root password. (You can
> probably grab most of the text from an explanation on how to
> re-install Grub.)
> 
> I am not sure how the rescue mode handles an encrypted file system.
> Will it mount one if you supply the password?

If you want to help, do test and document the method that works.

Rahul



From rino.mardo at gmail.com  Sun Mar 29 19:19:43 2009
From: rino.mardo at gmail.com (Rino Mardo)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:19:43 +0300
Subject: Reset root password
In-Reply-To: <49CFC99A.8070709@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49CEFAA4.4040600@fedoraproject.org>
	<49CFB671.7070404@infinity-ltd.com>
	<49CFC99A.8070709@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: 

I have the steps, an old one, can someone verify if it's still
applicable. Sorry I don't have a test system to try it out:

1. Using an Install CD, put into the CD drive and boot from it
2. At the "boot:" prompt type "linux single"
3. Now you need to mount the partition where your grub configuration
file is stored. From the "# " prompt type "fdisk -l" and from the
"Device" column the line that have an asterisk is your boot partition
where grub is located
4. Mount your partition "mount /dev/sda1 /mnt" (assuming /dev/sda1 is
the device that has the asterisk)
5. Afterwards do:
	cd /mnt/boot/grub
	vi grub.conf
6. Find the password line and remove it
6. Save the file then do:
	sync; sync
	cd /
	umount /mnt
	reboot








On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:18 PM, Rahul Sundaram
 wrote:
> Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> If anybody can add the steps to reset if the boot loader is password
>>> protected as well, feel free to do so.
>>>
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Forgotten_Root_Password
>>>
>>> Rahul
>>>
>> It needs to be fleshed out, but for a password protested boot
>> loader, you can do it as long as you can boot from a CD/DVD. Boot
>> the install media in the rescue mode, chroot to the mounted root
>> file system, and run passwd to change the root password. (You can
>> probably grab most of the text from an explanation on how to
>> re-install Grub.)
>>
>> I am not sure how the rescue mode handles an encrypted file system.
>> Will it mount one if you supply the password?
>
> If you want to help, do test and document the method that works.
>
> Rahul
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



From mikkel at infinity-ltd.com  Sun Mar 29 19:58:07 2009
From: mikkel at infinity-ltd.com (Mikkel L. Ellertson)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 14:58:07 -0500
Subject: Reset root password
In-Reply-To: <49CFC99A.8070709@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49CEFAA4.4040600@fedoraproject.org>	<49CFB671.7070404@infinity-ltd.com>
	<49CFC99A.8070709@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <49CFD2CF.7050703@infinity-ltd.com>

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> If anybody can add the steps to reset if the boot loader is password
>>> protected as well, feel free to do so.
>>>
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Forgotten_Root_Password
>>>
>>> Rahul
>>>
>> It needs to be fleshed out, but for a password protested boot
>> loader, you can do it as long as you can boot from a CD/DVD. Boot
>> the install media in the rescue mode, chroot to the mounted root
>> file system, and run passwd to change the root password. (You can
>> probably grab most of the text from an explanation on how to
>> re-install Grub.)
>>
>> I am not sure how the rescue mode handles an encrypted file system.
>> Will it mount one if you supply the password?
> 
> If you want to help, do test and document the method that works.
> 
> Rahul
> 
Well, I can not edit it directly, but here is the text for an
un-encrypted file system. I hope to have time to create a virtual
machine with an encrypted file system sometime this week.

============================================================

Boot the install CD/DVD
Select "Rescue installed system"
Answer the prompts for language and keyboard.
Starting the network is optional and probably not needed.
Let the rescue mode mount your file systems in the r/w mode.
Hit enter to get the shell prompt.

sh-3.2# chroot /mnt/sysimage (Change to your disk file system.)
sh-3.2# passwd               (Change the root password.)
sh-3.2# exit                 (Exit the chroot environment.)
sh-3.2# exit                 (Exit the rescue mode.)

The system will now unmount the file systems and reboot.

============================================================

Mikkel
-- 

  Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!



From anross at redhat.com  Sun Mar 29 20:05:00 2009
From: anross at redhat.com (Andrew Ross)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 16:05:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Configuring Sudo
In-Reply-To: <249551489.2656931238356801549.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <137657238.2656981238357100129.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>

Hi Rahul,

It's annoying to have to do visudo after every install :)

Couple of comments:

Technical
 - You might want to mention that your step requires root access (obvious to us, but perhaps not to a newbie)
 - Not sure on the Fedora style, but using "#" denotes root user in RH docs. Eg # echo 'sampleusername'.....

Neatness
 - The OCD part of my brain would prefer editing the sudoers file rather appending :) 

Grammar
 - s/Fedora uses regular user account/Fedora uses a regular user account
 - The rest I will leave that to a more skilled practitioner :)

Regards,

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Ross
Associate Quality Engineer
Red Hat Asia Pacific
Phone: 3514 8331
E-mail: anross at redhat.com
GPG-KeyID 0xCF53DC64 

"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." Douglas Adams



From sulyokpeti at gmail.com  Sun Mar 29 20:51:28 2009
From: sulyokpeti at gmail.com (Sulyok Peti)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:51:28 +0200
Subject: Fedora 'cvsl10n' sponsor needed for sumesz - 1. 
 =?iso-8859-1?q?ism=E9tl=E9s?=
In-Reply-To: <200903292133.28297.imre@csuhai.hu>
References: <1238351531.3675.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<200903292133.28297.imre@csuhai.hu>
Message-ID: <1238359888.8190.35.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Ide kell k?ldeni a javaslatokat (angolul):
For participants of the docs project 
Igaz?b?l a 2.6.4 pont hivatkozik 2.8-ra. Sz?val a sorrenddel nem lehet
baj. Az egyetlen angol mondattal viszont igen. Persze a ford?t?knak
az?rt j?l k?ne tudnia angolul.

Nem tudom, hogy sumesz ez?rt nem k?ld?tt-e m?g bemutatkoz? ?zenetet. A
t?mogat?knak sz?l? aj?nl?s szerint sz?pen meg kell k?rni, hogy tegye
meg. Miut?n ez megt?rt?nt lehet t?mogatni. K?l?nben ha t?bbsz?r
megism?telt figyelmeztet?sre sem reag?l, akkor elk?nyvelem, hogy t?l
kor?n adta fel. Rajtam nem m?lik.

2009. 03. 29, vas?rnap keltez?ssel 21.33-kor Csuhai Imre ezt ?rta:
> Kedves Peti!
> 
> 
> ?n is most jelentkeztem, munka melett ahogy id?m engedi r?sztvenn?k a 
> honos?t?sban. K?szi hogy t?mogattad a jelentkez?semet!
> 
> Gondoltam is r?, hogy el?sz?r a magyar "Ford?t?s gyorstalpal?"-ban szerepl? 
> n?h?ny angol mondatot ford?tan?m le. Sumesz koll?g?t nem tudom el?t?lni 
> amiatt, hogy felcser?lte a sorrendet, ?nis belestem ebbe a hib?ba, aminek 
> r?szben a saj?t figyelmetlens?gem volt az oka, mechanikusan ragaszkodtam a 
> gyorstalpal?ban le?rt sorrendis?ghez :
> 2.6. Csatlakoz?s a cvsl10n csoporthoz
> 2.7. Hozz?f?r?s kipr?b?l?sa
> 2.8. Bemutatkoz?s
> 
> C?lszer? lenne szerintem a 2.6-ba tenni a bemutatkoz?st ?s a t?bbit tolni 
> eggyel. Van ilyen v?ltoztat?sra lehet?s?g?
> 
> ?dv,



From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Sun Mar 29 22:12:01 2009
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 03:42:01 +0530
Subject: fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 61, Issue 27
In-Reply-To: <20090329160042.ACA3D619360@hormel.redhat.com>
References: <20090329160042.ACA3D619360@hormel.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <78323d480903291512y478f56f1gdda33ceb274019fe@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Rahul Sundaram  wrote:

> If anybody can add the steps to reset if the boot loader is password
> protected as well, feel free to do so.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Forgotten_Root_Password

This is almost done in  http://www.fedorafaq.org/basics/


https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Bootloader_Password

It is not done yet. ...


Best

A.Mani


-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc

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From employme4ever at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 00:54:08 2009
From: employme4ever at gmail.com (Job Seeker)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:54:08 -0400
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <9203be5d0903291754s7e5e186jefa9d9882b1b8900@mail.gmail.com>

unsubscribe


On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 12:00 PM, wrote:

> Send fedora-docs-list mailing list submissions to
>        fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>        fedora-docs-list-owner at redhat.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of fedora-docs-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. re: introduction (Adel ESSAFI)
>   2. Re: introduction (Kirk)
>   3. Re: Release Notes translations (Asgeir Frimannsson)
>   4. Re: install-guide in Spanish (Domingo Becker)
>   5. Enabling Root User For GNOME Display Manager (Rahul Sundaram)
>   6. Configuring Sudo (Rahul Sundaram)
>   7. Reset root password (Rahul Sundaram)
>   8. An Introduction (Rino Mardo)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 17:46:09 +0100
> From: Adel ESSAFI 
> Subject: re: introduction
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID:
>        
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Welcome Adel,
>
> Suggest you check out #fedora-docs on the IRC and talk with everyone about
> getting started, and were you want to help out. Most of the team leads can
> usually be found there.
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
> which server do you use in general?
>
>
>
> -Kirk
>
>
>
>
> --
> http://ilovefedora.blogspot.com/
>
> --
>
> PhD candidate in Computer Science
> Address
> BP 108, Bureau de poste Tunis republique
> 1001 Tunis
> Tunisia
> tel: +216 97 246 706
> fax: +216 71 391 166
> -------------- next part --------------
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> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/attachments/20090328/5ff13c87/attachment.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 10:54:38 -0700
> From: Kirk 
> Subject: Re: introduction
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
>        
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Adel ESSAFI wrote:
> > Welcome Adel,
> >
> > Suggest you check out #fedora-docs on the IRC and talk with everyone
> about
> > getting started, and were you want to help out. Most of the team leads
> can
> > usually be found there.
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > which server do you use in general?
> >
> >
> >
> > -Kirk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Sorry about that, go to FreeNode.
>
> -Kirk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:31:14 +1000
> From: Asgeir Frimannsson 
> Subject: Re: Release Notes translations
> To: Fedora Translation Project List 
> Cc: For participants of the Documentation Project
>        
> Message-ID:
>        <75db4b7e0903231831j60f4fd4bu4e2a0eed8c272fae at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Dimitris Glezos 
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Ruediger Landmann
> >  wrote:
> >> Diego B?rigo Zacar?o wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Can someone, please, tell me why all the Release Notes translations (PO
> >>> files) were deleted?
> >>
> >> They haven't been deleted; the po files for the Fedora 10 Release Notes
> were
> >> moved to a separate git branch as we prepare for Fedora 11. See here:
> >>
> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/release-notes.git?p=docs/release-notes.git;a=tree;f=po;hb=f10
> >
> > May I suggest a heads-up to fedora-trans-list before landing big
> > changes. It's always a good idea. =)
> >
> > Also, note that I'm still waiting for a patch that adds support for
> > Publican documents for Transifex. Is there a plan behind this change
> > in vital Fedora documents that takes translators into consideration?
>
> As far as I understand publican, one of the major benefits of this
> toolchain *is* translations. Hence, supporting Transifex on the
> infrastructure side should be very easy. A simple recipe:
>
> 1) In the toplevel 'Makefile' read the OTHER_LANGS variable to get a
> list of target-languages (e.g. ja-JP gu-IN)
> 2) For each of these languages, there is a sub-directory (e.g.
> ./ja-JP,/ ./gu-IN/) that reflects the exact directory-layout of the
> ./pot/ directory (containing the POT templates).
> 3) Present this nicely with statistics in the Transifex UI and allow
> submissions.
>
> So, getting info out of publican is easy. The tricky part is that
> Transifex 0.5 took a 'minor shortcut' by designing the application (at
> least the UI) around the concept of 'one PO file pr component'. There
> seems to be some support for additional files pr language, but this is
> not a 'simple patch' and requires cooperation from the core
> development team. I'm happy to assist with publican support if we find
> a solution for multiple files in general within Transifex.
>
> We have a Fedora L10N Infrastructure team meeting later today where I
> will put this on the agenda.
>
> cheers,
> asgeir
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:00:53 -0300
> From: Domingo Becker 
> Subject: Re: install-guide in Spanish
> To: Fedora Translation Project List ,
>        fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID:
>        <4818cd80902101700m4ce58728q3495076a3feac0d9 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> 2009/2/10 Domingo Becker :
> > 2009/2/10 Paul W. Frields :
> >> On another note though, it looks to me like there are minor changes to
> >> be made to the POT and the "es" translation is not 100% done:
> >>
> >> $ make postat-es
> >> es: 1037/83/23/
> >>
> >
> > Thank you, Paul.
> > Then, there are 3 possible reasons for that:
> > 1. DL [1] is not showing the right statistics
> > 2. Transifex is not commiting the po files correctly to the upstream VCS.
> > 3. DL/Tx is not getting the current install-guide.master.pot file from
> > upstream VCS.
> >
> > [1] http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/docs-install-guide
> >
> > I thought I was up to date, as shown in [1].
> > Please, push the differences to DL so I may complete the translation.
> >
> > kind regards
> >
> > Domingo Becker (es)
> >
>
> Sorry for replying myself.
> It seems the issue will be solved with Transifex 0.5 next month,
> according to message [1]
>
> [1]
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2009-February/msg00033.html
>
> kind regards
>
> Domingo Becker (es)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 09:24:51 +0530
> From: Rahul Sundaram 
> Subject: Enabling Root User For GNOME Display Manager
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
>        
> Message-ID: <49CEF10B.4040204 at fedoraproject.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi
>
> I have add this often requested information to
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Enabling_Root_User_For_GNOME_Display_Manager
>
> Also added it as a reference to
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Desktop_Beat
>
> Please review the changes and edit the wiki if necessary. Thank you for
> your feedback.
>
> Rahul
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 09:41:22 +0530
> From: Rahul Sundaram 
> Subject: Configuring Sudo
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
>        
> Message-ID: <49CEF4EA.4010300 at fedoraproject.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi
>
> Do review
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Configuring_Sudo
>
> Added as reference to desktop beat as well.
>
> Rahul
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:05:48 +0530
> From: Rahul Sundaram 
> Subject: Reset root password
> To: For participants of the Documentation Project
>        
> Message-ID: <49CEFAA4.4040600 at fedoraproject.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi
>
> If anybody can add the steps to reset if the boot loader is password
> protected as well, feel free to do so.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Forgotten_Root_Password
>
> Rahul
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 11:09:53 +0300
> From: Rino Mardo 
> Subject: An Introduction
> To: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> Message-ID:
>        
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hello, my name is Ferino Mardo but you can call me Rino. I am a
> network professional having been in the industry for more than 18
> years. I used to be a coder (from assembler to C) but now working as a
> network manager. I don't consider myself a newbie though I also don't
> call myself a h4ck3r :-) but I do know my way around computers and the
> Internet.
>
> I have time available and want to contribute it to this team because
> as I see it this is (IMHO) where Fedora needs more help. I don't
> really have any formal training in writing only a handful of blogs
> here and there but I do know my English language quite well. Never
> used docbook nor xml also and this is where I'm hoping I'd learn them
> maybe by starting to edit some drafts?
>
> Am looking forward to contribute and hope to "see" you soon!
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Rino Mardo
>
> Key fingerprint = 71E1 31C1 7CE8 9E5A 295E  36B9 8BE8 C3B5 414B FCBD
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>
> End of fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 61, Issue 27
> ************************************************
>
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From mikkel at infinity-ltd.com  Mon Mar 30 02:04:47 2009
From: mikkel at infinity-ltd.com (Mikkel L. Ellertson)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:04:47 -0500
Subject: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <9203be5d0903291754s7e5e186jefa9d9882b1b8900@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9203be5d0903291754s7e5e186jefa9d9882b1b8900@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D028BF.6010505@infinity-ltd.com>

Job Seeker wrote:
> unsubscribe
> 
> 
First of all, the information you need to unsubscribe yourself is at
the bottom ov every message:

To unsubscribe:
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list

Second - it is incredibly rude to quote the ENTIRE digest message
just to send an unscribe message!

-- 

Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower
than curse the darkness.



From jwulf at redhat.com  Mon Mar 30 02:23:42 2009
From: jwulf at redhat.com (Joshua Wulf)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:23:42 +1000
Subject: Publican Issues
Message-ID: <49D02D2E.1030005@redhat.com>

Based on feedback on this list, I've put together a proposal for the 
Fedora Packaging Committee meeting.

You can view it here: 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Publican_Documentation_Packages

The intent of the proposal is to move forward on the bugs mentioned in 
it and get a raft of documents into the next release.

Please let me know what you think.

Josh

-- 
Joshua J Wulf
Engineering Content Services
Red Hat Asia Pacific

eml: jwulf at redhat.com
tel: +61 (0)7 3514 8140
mob: +61 (0)431 929 675
tmz: GMT +10

(0) - omit when dialling internationally



From kushaldas at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 03:10:44 2009
From: kushaldas at gmail.com (Kushal Das)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:40:44 +0530
Subject: Configuring Sudo
In-Reply-To: <137657238.2656981238357100129.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <249551489.2656931238356801549.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<137657238.2656981238357100129.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Andrew Ross  wrote:
> Hi Rahul,
>
> It's annoying to have to do visudo after every install :)
>
Btw, why we do need to use visudo than simple vi ?  What is the difference ?

Kushal
-- 
http://fedoraproject.org
http://kushaldas.in



From anross at redhat.com  Mon Mar 30 03:54:38 2009
From: anross at redhat.com (Andrew Ross)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:54:38 +1000
Subject: Configuring Sudo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <249551489.2656931238356801549.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>	<137657238.2656981238357100129.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	
Message-ID: <49D0427E.2060804@redhat.com>

Hi Kushal,
> Btw, why we do need to use visudo than simple vi ?  What is the difference ?
>
> Kushal
>   

By default /etc/sudoers is read only.

visudo lets you edit and save. vi the same file and you have to force save.

/me guesses its just added security....

-- 
Andrew Ross
Associate Quality Engineer
Red Hat Asia Pacific
Phone: 3514 8331
E-mail: anross at redhat.com
GPG-KeyID 0xCF53DC64 

"This must be Thursday... I never could get the hang of Thursdays" 
Arthur Dent in HHGTTG, Douglas Adams.



From herlo1 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 04:00:50 2009
From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:00:50 -0600
Subject: Configuring Sudo
In-Reply-To: <49D0427E.2060804@redhat.com>
References: <249551489.2656931238356801549.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<137657238.2656981238357100129.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	
	<49D0427E.2060804@redhat.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 9:54 PM, Andrew Ross  wrote:
> Hi Kushal,
>>
>> Btw, why we do need to use visudo than simple vi ? ?What is the difference
>> ?
>>
>> Kushal
>>
>
> By default /etc/sudoers is read only.
>
> visudo lets you edit and save. vi the same file and you have to force save.
>
> /me guesses its just added security....
>

That's not the only reason.  Try catching an error / typo while just
using vi/vim.  With visudo, it validates syntax too.

Clint



From herlo1 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 04:02:23 2009
From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:02:23 -0600
Subject: Configuring Sudo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <249551489.2656931238356801549.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	<137657238.2656981238357100129.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	
	<49D0427E.2060804@redhat.com>
	
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Clint Savage  wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 9:54 PM, Andrew Ross  wrote:
>> Hi Kushal,
>>>
>>> Btw, why we do need to use visudo than simple vi ? ?What is the difference
>>> ?
>>>
>>> Kushal
>>>
>>
>> By default /etc/sudoers is read only.
>>
>> visudo lets you edit and save. vi the same file and you have to force save.
>>
>> /me guesses its just added security....
>>
>
> That's not the only reason. ?Try catching an error / typo while just
> using vi/vim. ?With visudo, it validates syntax too.
>
> Clint
>

Oh, and if you use visudo, if you set your $EDITOR variable, it
doesn't require vi/vim.

Clint



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Mar 30 04:18:20 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:48:20 +0530
Subject: Configuring Sudo
In-Reply-To: <137657238.2656981238357100129.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
References: <137657238.2656981238357100129.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D0480C.4050802@fedoraproject.org>

Andrew Ross wrote:
> Hi Rahul,
> 
> It's annoying to have to do visudo after every install :)
> 
> Couple of comments:
> 
> Technical
>  - You might want to mention that your step requires root access (obvious to us, but perhaps not to a newbie)
>  - Not sure on the Fedora style, but using "#" denotes root user in RH docs. Eg # echo 'sampleusername'.....
> 

Done

> Neatness
>  - The OCD part of my brain would prefer editing the sudoers file rather appending :) 
> 

I have already added a reference to another guide that does it using
visudo but teaching newbies vi when they are just getting started didn't
seem a kind thing to do.


> Grammar
>  - s/Fedora uses regular user account/Fedora uses a regular user account

Reworded. Thanks.

Rahul



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Mar 30 04:25:42 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:55:42 +0530
Subject: Reset root password
In-Reply-To: <49CFD2CF.7050703@infinity-ltd.com>
References: <49CEFAA4.4040600@fedoraproject.org>	<49CFB671.7070404@infinity-ltd.com>	<49CFC99A.8070709@fedoraproject.org>
	<49CFD2CF.7050703@infinity-ltd.com>
Message-ID: <49D049C6.9000303@fedoraproject.org>

Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:

> Well, I can not edit it directly, but here is the text for an
> un-encrypted file system. I hope to have time to create a virtual
> machine with an encrypted file system sometime this week.

Added to

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Forgotten_Root_Password

If you find the steps to recover from a encrypted hard disk, let me
know. IIRC, the rescue mode handles it very well. Thanks

Rahul



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Mar 30 04:37:00 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:07:00 +0530
Subject: Reset root password
In-Reply-To: 
References: <49CEFAA4.4040600@fedoraproject.org>	<49CFB671.7070404@infinity-ltd.com>	<49CFC99A.8070709@fedoraproject.org>
	
Message-ID: <49D04C6C.7060204@fedoraproject.org>

Rino Mardo wrote:
> I have the steps, an old one, can someone verify if it's still
> applicable. Sorry I don't have a test system to try it out

Changed significantly and added to

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Bootloader_Password

Thanks

Rahul



From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Mon Mar 30 05:12:44 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:12:44 -0400
Subject: Release Notes Fwd: improve-relatime.patch dropped from F10
Message-ID: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ricardo Arg?ello 
Date: Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: improve-relatime.patch dropped from F10
To: Development discussions related to Fedora 


Thanks Matthew, this is perhaps one of the most important performance
tweaks for Fedora 11 and beyond.
We need to add this to the Release Notes or something like that!

Should we close the bug now?

On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Matthew Garrett  wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 07, 2009 at 12:54:52AM +0000, Matthew Garrett wrote:
>
>> Huh. I actually meant "shouldn't cause failure" there, in terms of it
>> still being a valid mount option. The improved relatime code adds that
>> heuristic, which avoids the tmpreaper failure. I'm trying to get it
>> upstream, at which point I'll backport it - I'm not enthusiastic about
>> carrying it around as a custom modification forever.
>
> This got merged for 2.6.30 and I've backported it to the rawhide tree.
> It should also turn up in the 2.6.29 kernel update for F10, but possibly
> won't be enabled by default there while we work out how to handle the
> userland transition.
>
> --
> Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>

--
fedora-devel-list mailing list
fedora-devel-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Mon Mar 30 05:40:55 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:10:55 +0530
Subject: Release Notes Fwd: improve-relatime.patch dropped from F10
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <49D05B67.4010403@fedoraproject.org>

David Nalley wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ricardo Arg?ello 
> Date: Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:01 AM
> Subject: Re: improve-relatime.patch dropped from F10
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora 
> 
> 
> Thanks Matthew, this is perhaps one of the most important performance
> tweaks for Fedora 11 and beyond.
> We need to add this to the Release Notes or something like that!

I was already following this discussion. Added to

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Kernel_Beat

Thanks for forwarding it.

Rahul



From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Mon Mar 30 05:42:28 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:42:28 -0400
Subject: Release Notes Fwd: improve-relatime.patch dropped from F10
In-Reply-To: <49D05B67.4010403@fedoraproject.org>
References: 
	<49D05B67.4010403@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Rahul Sundaram
 wrote:
> David Nalley wrote:
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Ricardo Arg?ello 
>> Date: Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: improve-relatime.patch dropped from F10
>> To: Development discussions related to Fedora 
>>
>>
>> Thanks Matthew, this is perhaps one of the most important performance
>> tweaks for Fedora 11 and beyond.
>> We need to add this to the Release Notes or something like that!
>
> I was already following this discussion. Added to
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Kernel_Beat
>
> Thanks for forwarding it.
>
> Rahul
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>

Outstanding - just wanted to make sure we didn't lose it. Thanks for
picking it up and actually getting the content in.



From cpanceac at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 08:09:28 2009
From: cpanceac at gmail.com (cornel panceac)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:09:28 +0300
Subject: Release Notes Fwd: improve-relatime.patch dropped from F10
In-Reply-To: <49D05B67.4010403@fedoraproject.org>
References: 
	<49D05B67.4010403@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: 

2009/3/30 Rahul Sundaram 

> David Nalley wrote:
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Ricardo Arg?ello 
> > Date: Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:01 AM
> > Subject: Re: improve-relatime.patch dropped from F10
> > To: Development discussions related to Fedora <
> fedora-devel-list at redhat.com>
> >
> >
> > Thanks Matthew, this is perhaps one of the most important performance
> > tweaks for Fedora 11 and beyond.
> > We need to add this to the Release Notes or something like that!
>
> I was already following this discussion. Added to
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Kernel_Beat


pease fix this:

s/This timestamp, called *atime. atime,* can be useful ... /...

>
>
> Thanks for forwarding it.
>
> Rahul
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>



-- 
Linux counter #213090
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From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 11:59:48 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:59:48 -0400
Subject: Enabling Root User For GNOME Display Manager
In-Reply-To: <49CEF10B.4040204@fedoraproject.org>
References: <49CEF10B.4040204@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <20090330115948.GC21944@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 09:24:51AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> I have add this often requested information to
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Enabling_Root_User_For_GNOME_Display_Manager

Good work.  One reminder -- IIRC, we avoid title case in titles (other
than proper nouns or other things normally capitalized in a
sentence).  I'm not sure how much this affects search or other
capabilities, maybe Ian can advise.  In other words, use the same
standard used on Wikipedia for titles.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Mon Mar 30 12:39:37 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:39:37 -0400
Subject: More Publican Pain
Message-ID: 

Today I made the mistake of looking at the Publican produced release notes 
with Internet Explorer.  I can't believe it has taken me so long to make 
this check, but it wasn't pleasant. They are pretty badly munged up.  I 
wonder if there are things we can do/set in Publican to straighten this out.

The first problem is that the first page stops with the logo image.  This 
eliminates the table of contents and first section.  By changing the 
chunking in Publican we can get the first section back, but I don't know how 
to get the table of contents.  And the little box where the logo belongs 
looks trashy.  I suspect I could modify the branding to use the png version. 
I also did a different document with Publican, and all looked fine when I 
looked at it on my local box, but when I moved it to a webserver off my LAN 
(I believe it is RHEL), a bunch of XML shows up where the logo belongs when 
viewed with FF.  And it has the same issues with IE.

Second, every section number is followed by an A circumflex.  I suspect this 
is some sort of codepage issue, but I can't say I'm sure of that.

I checked the Fedora 10 release notes, which weren't produced with Publican, 
and they are fine.

I know, why aren't I using Firerox/KonquerorOpera pick your favorite poison. 
Fact is, Ryan put together the F11 RN's months ago, and amongst many 
experiments, I've probably viewed them a hundred times, with Firefox, Opera, 
SeaMonkey, Konqueror, Epiphany; I can't believe it has taken me this long to 
look at them with IE.  In spite of the inroads Firefox in particular has 
made, Internet Explorer is still the big bear in the woods, and it doesn't 
look good for Fedora if our documentation looks trashy.

--McD



From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Mar 30 12:45:14 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:45:14 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 476471] Review Request: fedora-security-guide - A
 security guide for Linux]
Message-ID: <1238417114.16252.1.camel@thunder>

I wanted to pass this along to the group for discussion.  There is a
proposal to allow Publican to use it's naming schema in Fedora.  This
would mean that each document has 

-------- Forwarded Message --------
From: bugzilla at redhat.com
To: eric at christensenplace.us
Subject: [Bug 476471] Review Request: fedora-security-guide - A security
guide for Linux
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 00:30:37 -0400

Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
comments should be made in the comments box of this bug.


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=476471





--- Comment #65 from Michael Hideo   2009-03-30 00:30:34 EDT ---
(In reply to comment #64)
> Thanks, Spot, 
> 
> That makes sense! I can see how it all coalesces and fits together in my head.
> 
> Eric, do you want to draft a policy for submission or would you like me to do
> it. I can have it done by Monday for your review if you like.
> 

Josh has taken this on and drafted:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Publican_Documentation_Packages

He has integrated it into the FPC agenda.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/DraftsTodo

For your review. Thank you, Josh.

- Mike

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From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Mar 30 13:26:25 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:26:25 -0400
Subject: More Publican Pain
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <1238419585.16252.6.camel@thunder>

Two things...

1) How does the Security Guide[1] look using IE?

2) Do we know if the guides are W3C validated?  I'll go ahead and answer
my #2.  I just checked the Security Guide[1] against the W3C Markup
Validation Service and received "This document was successfully checked
as XHTML 1.0 Strict!".  That's right boys and girls, all the code is
completely within the spec.  I didn't even get a warning or anything.
Publican is pushing good html.  Which leads to the question, what
version of IE are you using?

Eric


[1] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/security-guide/f10/en_US/



On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 08:39 -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
> Today I made the mistake of looking at the Publican produced release notes 
> with Internet Explorer.  I can't believe it has taken me so long to make 
> this check, but it wasn't pleasant. They are pretty badly munged up.  I 
> wonder if there are things we can do/set in Publican to straighten this out.
> 
> The first problem is that the first page stops with the logo image.  This 
> eliminates the table of contents and first section.  By changing the 
> chunking in Publican we can get the first section back, but I don't know how 
> to get the table of contents.  And the little box where the logo belongs 
> looks trashy.  I suspect I could modify the branding to use the png version. 
> I also did a different document with Publican, and all looked fine when I 
> looked at it on my local box, but when I moved it to a webserver off my LAN 
> (I believe it is RHEL), a bunch of XML shows up where the logo belongs when 
> viewed with FF.  And it has the same issues with IE.
> 
> Second, every section number is followed by an A circumflex.  I suspect this 
> is some sort of codepage issue, but I can't say I'm sure of that.
> 
> I checked the Fedora 10 release notes, which weren't produced with Publican, 
> and they are fine.
> 
> I know, why aren't I using Firerox/KonquerorOpera pick your favorite poison. 
> Fact is, Ryan put together the F11 RN's months ago, and amongst many 
> experiments, I've probably viewed them a hundred times, with Firefox, Opera, 
> SeaMonkey, Konqueror, Epiphany; I can't believe it has taken me this long to 
> look at them with IE.  In spite of the inroads Firefox in particular has 
> made, Internet Explorer is still the big bear in the woods, and it doesn't 
> look good for Fedora if our documentation looks trashy.
> 
> --McD
> 

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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Mon Mar 30 13:56:44 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:56:44 -0400
Subject: More Publican Pain
References: 
	<1238419585.16252.6.camel@thunder>
Message-ID: <39B2D4C9416947EC8E0B9EBEDF0544BA@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Christensen" 
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: More Publican Pain

I'm using IE7.  I believe IE8 is still in beta.  Unfortunately, I recently 
updated all my IE6's.  That is still probably the most prevalent browser out 
there and I can't test it.  IE7 appeared about the same time as Vista and it 
got caught up in the Vista negativity.  I haven't seen any evidence of the 
IE7 horror stories I heard when it first came out, but they prevented me 
from getting rid of IE6 for a very long time.  And on those web pages where 
I see those kind of stats, I still see a lot of IE6.

I've never seen svg graphics used on the web except on Fedora sites, but it 
is just plain wrong for IE to simply barf on that.  I would expect to see 
the box and go on.  Why it totally stops I have no idea.

On the other hand, I have no idea why Publican would put out a 0xc2 after 
each section number.  This seems like an unnecessary thing to do.

*HOWEVER*, if I select UTF-8 encoding, the page displays properly.  The A 
circumflex is clearly an IE bug.  With encoding set to automatic, IE selects 
Western European (at least for a US copy of Windows), when the page clearly 
says UTF-8.

Clearly, there are a couple of IE bugs here that we are exploiting.  But it 
really doesn't change the problem, does it?

--McD



From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Mar 30 14:31:04 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:31:04 -0400
Subject: More Publican Pain
In-Reply-To: <39B2D4C9416947EC8E0B9EBEDF0544BA@Aidan>
References: 
	<1238419585.16252.6.camel@thunder>
	<39B2D4C9416947EC8E0B9EBEDF0544BA@Aidan>
Message-ID: <1238423464.16252.14.camel@thunder>

On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 09:56 -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Eric Christensen" 
> To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 
> 
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:26 AM
> Subject: Re: More Publican Pain
>
> Clearly, there are a couple of IE bugs here that we are exploiting.  But it 
> really doesn't change the problem, does it?
> 
> --McD
> 

As far as I can tell, it is a problem with IE and not Publican.  When
the W3C validation comes up clean it is meeting the spec.  IE has always
had problems meeting the spec, which is unfortunate and not our problem,
in my opinion.  We are doing our due diligence to make sure it meets the
international spec.  Microsoft should be doing the same.

Eric
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Mar 30 14:55:55 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:55:55 -0400
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49D02D2E.1030005@redhat.com>
References: <49D02D2E.1030005@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1238424955.16252.23.camel@thunder>

On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 12:23 +1000, Joshua Wulf wrote:
> Based on feedback on this list, I've put together a proposal for the 
> Fedora Packaging Committee meeting.
> 
> You can view it here: 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Publican_Documentation_Packages
> 
> The intent of the proposal is to move forward on the bugs mentioned in 
> it and get a raft of documents into the next release.
> 
> Please let me know what you think.
> 
> Josh
> 
> -- 
> Joshua J Wulf
> Engineering Content Services
> Red Hat Asia Pacific
> 
> eml: jwulf at redhat.com
> tel: +61 (0)7 3514 8140
> mob: +61 (0)431 929 675
> tmz: GMT +10
> 
> (0) - omit when dialling internationally
> 

Opps...  I hadn't caught up on posts made over the weekend before
posting the forward from Bugzilla.

Thanks for writing up the proposal.  It would be nice to have a
stream-lined validation process for Publican-created documents.  

I still have a concern about the product number in the package title.
Whether the FPC wants to accept it is one thing but I still feel that
Publican should provide support for NOT wanting it there in the first
place.  There are guides out there that are obviously driven for a
specific version of Fedora and there are guides out there that aren't.
Those that aren't shouldn't have to have the product number.

We are going to have to look at how we do the languages, too.  We will
have to change the way we do business to make that happen properly.

Eric

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From a.mani.cms at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 15:22:15 2009
From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:52:15 +0530
Subject: Reset root password
Message-ID: <78323d480903300822i633fd69fta83ec1e03c4d765e@mail.gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Rahul Sundaram  wrote:

> Changed significantly and added to
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Bootloader_Password
>
There is no separate Rescue CD .... changed

Will the password line be within one line in all cases?
Then the whole thing can be done in one command

All users may not have the Fedora install/live cd/dvd  with them.
So it makes sense to have other methods.

USB rescue missing

Best

A. Mani


-- 
A. Mani
Member, Cal. Math. Soc

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1KkAnRtqq78L9WeAXQxwDmu9jju9d5KM
=tCRI
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From stickster at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 15:31:37 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:31:37 -0400
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <1238424955.16252.23.camel@thunder>
References: <49D02D2E.1030005@redhat.com> <1238424955.16252.23.camel@thunder>
Message-ID: <20090330153137.GQ21944@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 10:55:55AM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 12:23 +1000, Joshua Wulf wrote:
> > Based on feedback on this list, I've put together a proposal for the 
> > Fedora Packaging Committee meeting.
> > 
> > You can view it here: 
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Publican_Documentation_Packages
> > 
> > The intent of the proposal is to move forward on the bugs mentioned in 
> > it and get a raft of documents into the next release.
> > 
> > Please let me know what you think.
> 
> Opps...  I hadn't caught up on posts made over the weekend before
> posting the forward from Bugzilla.
> 
> Thanks for writing up the proposal.  It would be nice to have a
> stream-lined validation process for Publican-created documents.  
> 
> I still have a concern about the product number in the package title.
> Whether the FPC wants to accept it is one thing but I still feel that
> Publican should provide support for NOT wanting it there in the first
> place.  There are guides out there that are obviously driven for a
> specific version of Fedora and there are guides out there that aren't.
> Those that aren't shouldn't have to have the product number.

I must admit, seeing:

  fedora-documentation-guide-0-en_US

looks weird to me.  But it's not the end of the world either.

> We are going to have to look at how we do the languages, too.  We will
> have to change the way we do business to make that happen properly.

What specific changes are needed?  (This is a good thread to lay them
out.)

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From a.badger at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 15:28:22 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:28:22 -0500
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49D02D2E.1030005@redhat.com>
References: <49D02D2E.1030005@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <49D0E516.8030809@gmail.com>

Joshua Wulf wrote:
> Based on feedback on this list, I've put together a proposal for the
> Fedora Packaging Committee meeting.
> 
> You can view it here:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Publican_Documentation_Packages
> 
> The intent of the proposal is to move forward on the bugs mentioned in
> it and get a raft of documents into the next release.
> 
> Please let me know what you think.
> 
I've added comments for both of these for where I think we should put
them in the existing Guidelines.  Let me know what you think -- The FPC
will discuss them tomorrow.

-Toshio

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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Mon Mar 30 15:50:06 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:50:06 -0400
Subject: More Publican Pain
References: <1238419585.16252.6.camel@thunder><39B2D4C9416947EC8E0B9EBEDF0544BA@Aidan>
	<1238423464.16252.14.camel@thunder>
Message-ID: <26C667B4CB484365BA4DC7C61023D810@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Christensen" 
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: More Publican Pain

> As far as I can tell, it is a problem with IE and not Publican.
> When the W3C validation comes up clean it is meeting the
> spec.  IE has always had problems meeting the spec, which
> is unfortunate and not our problem, in my opinion.  We are
> doing our due diligence to make sure it meets the
> international spec.  Microsoft should be doing the same.

I agree that the problem is in IE, but it *IS* our problem.

These issues are livable to the faithful.  A little trashy but the important 
information is all readable.

But the overwhelming majority of those we want to convert will be looking at 
our docs using the world's most popular browser, seeing the docs are trash, 
and deciding that Fedora must be trash, too.  That, sir, is very much OUR 
problem.

--McD



From rino.mardo at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 16:17:55 2009
From: rino.mardo at gmail.com (Rino Mardo)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:17:55 +0300
Subject: Reset root password
In-Reply-To: <78323d480903300822i633fd69fta83ec1e03c4d765e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78323d480903300822i633fd69fta83ec1e03c4d765e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Mani A  wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Rahul Sundaram  wrote:
>
>> Changed significantly and added to
>>
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reset_Bootloader_Password
>>
> There is no separate Rescue CD .... changed
>
> Will the password line be within one line in all cases?
> Then the whole thing can be done in one command
>
> All users may not have the Fedora install/live cd/dvd ?with them.
> So it makes sense to have other methods.
>
> USB rescue missing
>

well in that case there's also others like Knoppix. yeah USB rescue
for those who have netbooks.



From eric at christensenplace.us  Mon Mar 30 16:22:50 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:22:50 -0400
Subject: More Publican Pain
In-Reply-To: <26C667B4CB484365BA4DC7C61023D810@Aidan>
References: 
	<1238419585.16252.6.camel@thunder><39B2D4C9416947EC8E0B9EBEDF0544BA@Aidan>
	<1238423464.16252.14.camel@thunder>
	<26C667B4CB484365BA4DC7C61023D810@Aidan>
Message-ID: <1238430170.16252.35.camel@thunder>

On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 11:50 -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Eric Christensen" 
> To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 
> 
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:31 AM
> Subject: Re: More Publican Pain
> 
> > As far as I can tell, it is a problem with IE and not Publican.
> > When the W3C validation comes up clean it is meeting the
> > spec.  IE has always had problems meeting the spec, which
> > is unfortunate and not our problem, in my opinion.  We are
> > doing our due diligence to make sure it meets the
> > international spec.  Microsoft should be doing the same.
> 
> I agree that the problem is in IE, but it *IS* our problem.
> 
> These issues are livable to the faithful.  A little trashy but the important 
> information is all readable.
> 
> But the overwhelming majority of those we want to convert will be looking at 
> our docs using the world's most popular browser, seeing the docs are trash, 
> and deciding that Fedora must be trash, too.  That, sir, is very much OUR 
> problem.
> 
> --McD
> 

Okay, I'm impressed...

So check out the stats[1] for docs.fp.o.  While most of our visitors are
running Windows (53.4%), most are NOT running IE (only 20.9% versus
Firefox users at 63.8%).  Still, 1,361,844 people running IE (just this
year) is a nice chunk of users.

If we can "fix" the problems without breaking the validation then go for
it, but we should be meeting an international standard and not what
Microsoft feels like using for their browser.

Can we file a bug against IE7?

Eric


[1] http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/docs.fedoraproject.org/
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From loupgaroublond at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 16:53:38 2009
From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (loupgaroublond at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:53:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Wanted: a Technical Advisor for DocBook GSoC Project
In-Reply-To: <1238417114.16252.1.camel@thunder>
Message-ID: 

Hey All,

By now many of you know Satya is looking to work on a DocBook editor for a Google Summer of Code project. I think this project shows alot of promise, and for lack of a full mentor, i have stepped up to be accountable for the results. I am more than willing to help make sure all the status reports are taken care of, providing the necessary information to Google, and just helping Satya out where i can.  Satya has also shown initiative by contacting upstream, and they have supported the project as well.

The only caveat is that i'm wholly unqualified to comment on what the Documentation team needs.  More importantly, we are looking for comment on where the Documentation team's priorities are. I am looking for a volunteer to be a primary technical advisor to the project. I estimate that it shouldn't require more than 5 hours a week. The primary task is to answer Satya's questions, either on IRC or by email.

If no one volunteers outright, bear in mind, we are lurking your channel.  We'll be asking questions there anyways. Even so, if there is a particular vision you may have for the Docs team, here's your chance to see it happen.

Cheers,
Yaakov
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From kwade at redhat.com  Mon Mar 30 16:57:55 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:57:55 -0700
Subject: More Publican Pain
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20090330165755.GF6184@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 08:39:37AM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
> Today I made the mistake of looking at the Publican produced release 
> notes with Internet Explorer.  I can't believe it has taken me so long to 
> make this check, but it wasn't pleasant. They are pretty badly munged up. 
>  I wonder if there are things we can do/set in Publican to straighten 
> this out.
>
> The first problem is that the first page stops with the logo image.  This 
> eliminates the table of contents and first section.  By changing the  
> chunking in Publican we can get the first section back, but I don't know 
> how to get the table of contents.  And the little box where the logo 
> belongs looks trashy.  I suspect I could modify the branding to use the 
> png version. I also did a different document with Publican, and all 
> looked fine when I looked at it on my local box, but when I moved it to a 
> webserver off my LAN (I believe it is RHEL), a bunch of XML shows up 
> where the logo belongs when viewed with FF.  And it has the same issues 
> with IE.

That is a server-side setting.  It is not pushing the proper MIME type
for SVG.  We had this on the docs.fedoraproject.org servers the first
time we put up the SELinux Guide; and it wasn't universal, only some
servers had the MIME type wrong, so it was harder to figure out.

I'm not sure about the chunking stuff; let's see how it looks once you
fix the MIME type.

> Second, every section number is followed by an A circumflex.  I suspect 
> this is some sort of codepage issue, but I can't say I'm sure of that.

I think is also server-side, it's pushing the wrong character set.
Can you confirm the server is set to use UTF-8? It is likely using ISO
8859, which was Apache default for a while (still?)

> I checked the Fedora 10 release notes, which weren't produced with 
> Publican, and they are fine.

Are you also seeing the character problems on a local copy or just
from the server?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Mon Mar 30 16:58:52 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:58:52 -0400
Subject: More Publican Pain
References: <1238419585.16252.6.camel@thunder><39B2D4C9416947EC8E0B9EBEDF0544BA@Aidan><1238423464.16252.14.camel@thunder><26C667B4CB484365BA4DC7C61023D810@Aidan>
	<1238430170.16252.35.camel@thunder>
Message-ID: <60DC0D5E440541E8B9EAD7073760A359@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Christensen" 
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: More Publican Pain

> If we can "fix" the problems without breaking the validation then go for
> it, but we should be meeting an international standard and not what
> Microsoft feels like using for their browser.

Well, neither of these problems seem to have anything to do with validation. 
The Fedora branding for Publican has both svg and png versions of the logo, 
I'm sure IE can handle the png.  I'm not sure how to tell it to use the png, 
tho.  The logo is embedded as an object, not an image, and I think the 
validation suite lets you put anything into an object type as long as it is 
lower case.  I suspect Windows can't decode an svg whatever the browser. 
But in any case, it should leave a box for the object and go on, not just 
stop displaying the page there.

The 0xc2 is another issue.  While I am sure that the validation doesn't 
require a 0xc2 after a number, why it is there and how to make it go away I 
have no clue.  Apparently it must be a non-display character in UTF.  It 
precedes a non-break space, so maybe it has something to do with that.

> Can we file a bug against IE7?

I'm sure we can, I'll look into it.  But I don't get the impression M$ 
treats bugs like we do.  We encourage people to file bugs; we almost like 
them because it means people care enough to help us make the product better. 
I don't get that same feeling from Microsoft, but then maybe I'm just 
prejudiced.

My wife's box has Firefox and Opera on it.  I tried to fire up Firefox to 
take a look on FF/Win.  But the silly thing kept crashing, and the phone 
rang before I could investigate the crash.

--McD



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Mon Mar 30 17:17:51 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:17:51 -0400
Subject: More Publican Pain
References: 
	<20090330165755.GF6184@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karsten Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: More Publican Pain

> I'm not sure about the chunking stuff; let's see how it looks
> once you fix the MIME type.

I'm not sure I can.  This is a commercial server, I don't recall seeing 
anything on MIME types on the control panel.

> Can you confirm the server is set to use UTF-8? It is likely using ISO
> 8859, which was Apache default for a while (still?)

This is the case whether it comes off the commercial server or read as a 
file over Samba.  The header clearly says it is UTF-8, I guess I would 
expect IE to pay attention to that (although I haven't installed Fiddler to 
see whether it is getting some other advice).  And when I select UTF-8 from 
IE's menu the weird characters go away.

> Are you also seeing the character problems on a local copy or just
> from the server?

I only checked the F10 release notes from d.fp.o.   But, since I have the 
F10 notes spinning it is a 10 second job to look on a local copy, and they 
look just fine, except of course, for a different css.

--McD



From wolfdreamwalker at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 30 18:56:09 2009
From: wolfdreamwalker at hotmail.com (Wolf DreamWalker)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:56:09 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 User Guide
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<20090330165755.GF6184@calliope.phig.org> 
	
Message-ID: 


Wondering who is working on this. Seems out of date since the last version I can access is the draft for Fedora 9.

Whoever is working on this please let me know how I can help.  Suggest working on the guide for Fedora 11 first instead of playing catch up. Since I'm new to Linux/Fedora it would also give me a chance to play with it to my heart's content ... as soon as I get to download the beta which is supposed to be available tomorrow.

Wolf


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with the whole group, and bring everyone together.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650735
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From mikkel at infinity-ltd.com  Mon Mar 30 19:48:43 2009
From: mikkel at infinity-ltd.com (Mikkel L. Ellertson)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:48:43 -0500
Subject: Configuring Sudo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <249551489.2656931238356801549.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>	<137657238.2656981238357100129.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com>
	
Message-ID: <49D1221B.1080801@infinity-ltd.com>

Kushal Das wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Andrew Ross  wrote:
>> Hi Rahul,
>>
>> It's annoying to have to do visudo after every install :)
>>
> Btw, why we do need to use visudo than simple vi ?  What is the difference ?
> 
> Kushal
Doesn't visudo handle locking so that two people don't try to edit
the file at once, just like vipw and vigr? also, if you set $EDITOR
or $VISUAL, it will used the specified editor.

Mikkel
-- 

  Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 19:51:35 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:51:35 -0400
Subject: More Publican Pain
In-Reply-To: <60DC0D5E440541E8B9EAD7073760A359@Aidan>
References: 
	<1238419585.16252.6.camel@thunder><39B2D4C9416947EC8E0B9EBEDF0544BA@Aidan>
	<1238423464.16252.14.camel@thunder><26C667B4CB484365BA4DC7C61023D810@Aidan>
	<1238430170.16252.35.camel@thunder>
	<60DC0D5E440541E8B9EAD7073760A359@Aidan>
Message-ID: <1238442695.18788.54.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 12:58 -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
> The 0xc2 is another issue.  While I am sure that the validation doesn't 
> require a 0xc2 after a number, why it is there and how to make it go away I 
> have no clue.  Apparently it must be a non-display character in UTF.  It 
> precedes a non-break space, so maybe it has something to do with that.

0xc2 is the first byte of a 2-byte UTF-8 sequence for a character
between U+0080 and U+00BF.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams 

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From kirk202 at q.com  Mon Mar 30 21:17:56 2009
From: kirk202 at q.com (Kirk)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:17:56 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 User Guide
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<20090330165755.GF6184@calliope.phig.org>
	
	
Message-ID: 



Wolf DreamWalker wrote:
> Wondering who is working on this. Seems out of date since the last 
> version I can access is the draft for Fedora 9.
> 
> Whoever is working on this please let me know how I can help.  Suggest 
> working on the guide for Fedora 11 first instead of playing catch up. 
> Since I'm new to Linux/Fedora it would also give me a chance to play 
> with it to my heart's content ... as soon as I get to download the beta 
> which is supposed to be available tomorrow.
> 
> Wolf
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Windows Live Messenger makes it easier to stay in touch - learn how! 
> 
> 

Welcome Wolf,

We're finishing up the F10 User Guide and will be starting on F11 soon.

Suggest you get on the IRC server freeNode, #fedora-docs, and meet 
everyone.  The lead for the User Guide is danielsm1 on IRC.

-Kirk



From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Mon Mar 30 20:26:27 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:26:27 -0400
Subject: More Publican Pain
References: <1238419585.16252.6.camel@thunder><39B2D4C9416947EC8E0B9EBEDF0544BA@Aidan><1238423464.16252.14.camel@thunder><26C667B4CB484365BA4DC7C61023D810@Aidan><1238430170.16252.35.camel@thunder><60DC0D5E440541E8B9EAD7073760A359@Aidan>
	<1238442695.18788.54.camel@ignacio.lan>
Message-ID: <6ACC3F2E9A8B4842B7BED17AFAF421C9@Aidan>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams" 
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" 

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: More Publican Pain

> 0xc2 is the first byte of a 2-byte UTF-8 sequence for a
> character between U+0080 and U+00BF.

Ahh, that makes sense then.  It is always followed by a non-breaking space, 
0xa0. For Western European coding I don't think there are any multi-byte 
sequences. So the problem is entirely on the codepage.

--McD



From ivazqueznet at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 20:32:12 2009
From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:32:12 -0400
Subject: More Publican Pain
In-Reply-To: <6ACC3F2E9A8B4842B7BED17AFAF421C9@Aidan>
References: 
	<1238419585.16252.6.camel@thunder><39B2D4C9416947EC8E0B9EBEDF0544BA@Aidan>
	<1238423464.16252.14.camel@thunder><26C667B4CB484365BA4DC7C61023D810@Aidan>
	<1238430170.16252.35.camel@thunder><60DC0D5E440541E8B9EAD7073760A359@Aidan>
	<1238442695.18788.54.camel@ignacio.lan>
	<6ACC3F2E9A8B4842B7BED17AFAF421C9@Aidan>
Message-ID: <1238445132.18788.58.camel@ignacio.lan>

On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 16:26 -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
> For Western European coding I don't think there are any multi-byte 
> sequences.

The UTF-8 byte sequence for every single Latin-1 character outside of
ASCII starts with either 0xc2 or 0xc3, and is two bytes long.

-- 
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams 

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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From danielsmw at gmail.com  Mon Mar 30 21:34:10 2009
From: danielsmw at gmail.com (Matthew Daniels)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:34:10 -0400
Subject: Fedora 11 User Guide
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<20090330165755.GF6184@calliope.phig.org>
	
	
	
Message-ID: <51BDBFD9-3067-4444-8791-DB73361D892C@gmail.com>

On Mar 30, 2009, at 2:56 PM, Wolf DreamWalker wrote:
> Wondering who is working on this. Seems out of date since the last  
> version I can access is the draft for Fedora 9.

The best place to find it right now is on the tasks page [1].  I know  
it seems like User_Guide makes more sense, but since we only use the  
wiki for editing and collaboration and not for publishing, appearance  
doesn't matter too much, and User_Guide_tasks already had a task table  
set up when I took over the lead for the guide.

On Mar 30, 2009, at 5:17 PM, Kirk wrote:
> We're finishing up the F10 User Guide and will be starting on F11  
> soon.

Reiterating what Kirk said, the F10 guide is basically done, content  
wise.  I'm going to grab the MediaWiki formatting off the wiki so that  
I can convert it to DocBook XML when I get the chance (our MediaWiki - 
 > DocBook conversion tool is in the process of being fixed right  
now), and as soon as I do that we can start working on the F11 guide  
right in the wiki.  The F11 final release is scheduled for May 26 with  
the release candidate about a month before, so we may be able to push  
an F11 guide out the window by the time the final release is out.

On Mar 30, 2009, at 2:56 PM, Wolf DreamWalker wrote:
> Since I'm new to Linux/Fedora it would also give me a chance to play  
> with it to my heart's content ... as soon as I get to download the  
> beta which is supposed to be available tomorrow.

I would suggest you go ahead and download/install the beta since  
that's our upcoming task.  In the meantime, you may want to read  
through the current F10 draft to get a feel for the writing style and  
conventions we try to use.  It's definitely not perfect though, so if  
you want to find the final word on writing conventions, look around  
the style guide on the Docs Team page [1] or ask someone knowledgeable  
in IRC.

On Mar 30, 2009, at 5:17 PM, Kirk wrote:
> Suggest you get on the IRC server freeNode, #fedora-docs, and meet  
> everyone.  The lead for the User Guide is danielsm1 on IRC.

I usually have IRC clients open on different shells, so sometimes my  
nick is danielsm1.  If you can't find that, I'm probably danielsmw,  
which is what I try to use primarily.

Cheers,

Matthew Daniels

Links:
[1] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Guide_tasks
[2] - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject



From jwulf at redhat.com  Mon Mar 30 23:00:51 2009
From: jwulf at redhat.com (Joshua Wulf)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:00:51 +1000
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <1238424955.16252.23.camel@thunder>
References: <49D02D2E.1030005@redhat.com> <1238424955.16252.23.camel@thunder>
Message-ID: <49D14F23.2000708@redhat.com>

Eric Christensen wrote:
>
> There are guides out there that are obviously driven for a
> specific version of Fedora and there are guides out there that aren't.
> Those that aren't shouldn't have to have the product number.
>
>   
I agree. Has it been created as a feature request in bugzilla?

-- 
Joshua J Wulf
Engineering Content Services
Red Hat Asia Pacific

eml: jwulf at redhat.com
tel: +61 (0)7 3514 8140
mob: +61 (0)431 929 675
tmz: GMT +10

(0) - omit when dialling internationally



From eric at christensenplace.us  Tue Mar 31 11:37:20 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:37:20 -0400
Subject: Publican Issues
In-Reply-To: <49D14F23.2000708@redhat.com>
References: <49D02D2E.1030005@redhat.com>
	<1238424955.16252.23.camel@thunder>  <49D14F23.2000708@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <1238499440.3413.5.camel@thunder>

> I agree. Has it been created as a feature request in bugzilla?

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478950
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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Tue Mar 31 15:15:58 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:15:58 -0400
Subject: Wiki Freeze Tomorrow
Message-ID: <6268CAE1187543EF803DFB198B8AEBE3@Aidan>

The wiki freeze is scheduled for tomorrow.  If you plan to add some release 
notes content to the wiki, time is getting short.

If there are items you think need more content, but you aren't comfortable 
with the wordsmithing, leave some content in the wiki and the Docs folks 
will be happy to clean up the prose.

Following the wiki freeze we still can make changes in the xml, so if 
something comes up that should change the release notes, email myself or 
Ryan Lerch and we will make the changes.

--McD



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Mar 31 16:08:32 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:38:32 +0530
Subject: Wiki Freeze Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <6268CAE1187543EF803DFB198B8AEBE3@Aidan>
References: <6268CAE1187543EF803DFB198B8AEBE3@Aidan>
Message-ID: <49D24000.6050506@fedoraproject.org>

John J. McDonough wrote:
> The wiki freeze is scheduled for tomorrow.  If you plan to add some
> release notes content to the wiki, time is getting short.
> 
> If there are items you think need more content, but you aren't
> comfortable with the wordsmithing, leave some content in the wiki and
> the Docs folks will be happy to clean up the prose.
> 
> Following the wiki freeze we still can make changes in the xml, so if
> something comes up that should change the release notes, email myself or
> Ryan Lerch and we will make the changes

That's not really acceptable. A reminder should have gone in much
earlier. There is lots of content that needs to be updated and a day is
just not enough.

Rahul





From eric at christensenplace.us  Tue Mar 31 18:20:32 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:20:32 -0400
Subject: Publican Documentation Naming
Message-ID: <1238523632.3219.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Earlier today the Fedora Packaging Committee (FPC) looked at two
"obstacles" to Publican-generated documentation.  The first was the
naming convention[1] and the second was how Publican handles
the .desktop in the SPEC file[2].  Both passed the FPC.

The FPC did say that we (the Docs Project) need to create a review
process to ask "is this documentation really version specific? is there
value in having multiple releases in the same dist at once?".  This is
an important test that we need to develop and handle in-house.  This is
NOT a solution to allow all Publican documents but it is a solution for
allowing release-specific documents in Fedora.

Also discussed was the multiple SRPMs that are generated by having
multiple languages for each document.  To simplify the process of
reviewing these it was suggested that we use subpackaging.  Each SRPM
for each language would be wrapped into a single package.

I'm adding these three items to the agenda for this week's Docs
meeting[3].

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/DocumentationNaming
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/EmbeddedDesktopFiles
[3]
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Steering_Committee_meetings

Thanks,
Eric
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Mar 31 20:32:12 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:32:12 -0700
Subject: Fedora 11 User Guide
In-Reply-To: <51BDBFD9-3067-4444-8791-DB73361D892C@gmail.com>
References: 
	<20090330165755.GF6184@calliope.phig.org>
	
	
	
	<51BDBFD9-3067-4444-8791-DB73361D892C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090331203212.GF5688@calliope.phig.org>

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 05:34:10PM -0400, Matthew Daniels wrote:

> I'm going to grab the MediaWiki formatting off the wiki so that I 
> can convert it to DocBook XML when I get the chance (our MediaWiki -> 
> DocBook conversion tool is in the process of being fixed right now), and 
> as soon as I do that we can start working on the F11 guide right in the 
> wiki.  

One idea that is a bit of a PITA but maybe worth it ...

We could "branch" in the wiki by copying all the current pages to
e.g. [F11 User Guide - *]].  I think we should not rename because it
creates redirects we don't want.  We'll also want the F10 content
in place to rewrite from.

Just an idea ...

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 20:54:04 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:54:04 -0400
Subject: Publican Documentation Naming
In-Reply-To: <1238523632.3219.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238523632.3219.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090331205404.GE24178@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 02:20:32PM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> Earlier today the Fedora Packaging Committee (FPC) looked at two
> "obstacles" to Publican-generated documentation.  The first was the
> naming convention[1] and the second was how Publican handles
> the .desktop in the SPEC file[2].  Both passed the FPC.
> 
> The FPC did say that we (the Docs Project) need to create a review
> process to ask "is this documentation really version specific? is there
> value in having multiple releases in the same dist at once?".  This is
> an important test that we need to develop and handle in-house.  This is
> NOT a solution to allow all Publican documents but it is a solution for
> allowing release-specific documents in Fedora.
> 
> Also discussed was the multiple SRPMs that are generated by having
> multiple languages for each document.  To simplify the process of
> reviewing these it was suggested that we use subpackaging.  Each SRPM
> for each language would be wrapped into a single package.

Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a moment -- one of the reasons
for splitting out SRPMs per language, AIUI, is that it allows fixed
translations to be issued quickly without having to rebuild the entire
gamut of all languages for a document.  In other words, if someone
fixes the Security Guide's German (de) translation, you can simply
issue a new release of that package, and only people with the Security
Guide installed in German will get the update.

As far as I know, you can't tell our build systems to only
release one subpackage, and hold back all the others.  So if you want
to issue an update, you would be forced to issue all languages at
once, and you push an update on everyone, even people whose content is
not changing at all.

Just my limited understanding, there may be good arguments on both
sides of course.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From eric at christensenplace.us  Tue Mar 31 20:57:53 2009
From: eric at christensenplace.us (Eric Christensen)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:57:53 -0400
Subject: Publican Documentation Naming
In-Reply-To: <20090331205404.GE24178@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238523632.3219.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090331205404.GE24178@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1238533073.3413.12.camel@thunder>

On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 16:54 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 02:20:32PM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> > Earlier today the Fedora Packaging Committee (FPC) looked at two
> > "obstacles" to Publican-generated documentation.  The first was the
> > naming convention[1] and the second was how Publican handles
> > the .desktop in the SPEC file[2].  Both passed the FPC.
> > 
> > The FPC did say that we (the Docs Project) need to create a review
> > process to ask "is this documentation really version specific? is there
> > value in having multiple releases in the same dist at once?".  This is
> > an important test that we need to develop and handle in-house.  This is
> > NOT a solution to allow all Publican documents but it is a solution for
> > allowing release-specific documents in Fedora.
> > 
> > Also discussed was the multiple SRPMs that are generated by having
> > multiple languages for each document.  To simplify the process of
> > reviewing these it was suggested that we use subpackaging.  Each SRPM
> > for each language would be wrapped into a single package.
> 
> Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a moment -- one of the reasons
> for splitting out SRPMs per language, AIUI, is that it allows fixed
> translations to be issued quickly without having to rebuild the entire
> gamut of all languages for a document.  In other words, if someone
> fixes the Security Guide's German (de) translation, you can simply
> issue a new release of that package, and only people with the Security
> Guide installed in German will get the update.
> 
> As far as I know, you can't tell our build systems to only
> release one subpackage, and hold back all the others.  So if you want
> to issue an update, you would be forced to issue all languages at
> once, and you push an update on everyone, even people whose content is
> not changing at all.
> 
> Just my limited understanding, there may be good arguments on both
> sides of course.

Paul,
I posed a similar question...  I'm pasting the conversation:

Sparks_Too> spot: I foresee a problem coming down the road.  Each
language is packaged independently.  So that's going to mean a lot of
packages hitting the review process within a short amount of time.
 yeah I was about to bring that up as well.
 Sparks_Too: each language is packaged independently?
 seriously? that's just broken.
 spot: Yes
 another tool issue
* tatica has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
 Oh, please no.
 yeah, i'm not going to let that slide.
 spot: In RH the reasoning is so there aren't 200MB docs...
 I suspect it's a plot to dramatically increase fedora package
count :)
 being downloaded for just one language.
 learn about subpackages.
 So you would be able to install a language versus a
document.
 If that makes sense.
 subpackage ++
 right, single srpm, 35 rpms
 ke4qqq: This is a RH thing and not a Fedora thing.
 subpackages should be fine
 35 base packages would not be
 spot: Okay, not familiar but would be.
 s/would/will
 Sparks_Too: basically, think of how the openssl package generates
openssl and openssl-devel
 it is just one package for review (openssl)
 HowToFooAndBar could generate HTFAB-en and HTFAB-de
 spot: Okay... so would we need ALL the languages in the
package before it is approved?
 No.  You can just add a language once the package is in.
 Sparks_Too: nope. you can add subpackages as they are done.
 FPC, we're almost out of time
 spot: Okay.  That works for me.  Our meeting is tomorrow so
I'll bring it up then.  I don't have a problem with any of this, just
need to learn more.

So when he said that not all the translations have to be in the package
it sounded to me as if they weren't language specific and we wouldn't
run into that problem.

Eric
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From kwade at redhat.com  Tue Mar 31 20:59:34 2009
From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:59:34 -0700
Subject: Wiki Freeze Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <49D24000.6050506@fedoraproject.org>
References: <6268CAE1187543EF803DFB198B8AEBE3@Aidan>
	<49D24000.6050506@fedoraproject.org>
Message-ID: <20090331205934.GG5688@calliope.phig.org>

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 09:38:32PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> John J. McDonough wrote:
> > The wiki freeze is scheduled for tomorrow.  If you plan to add some
> > release notes content to the wiki, time is getting short.

To be clear, this refers only to the documentation beats used for the
release notes:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats

> > If there are items you think need more content, but you aren't
> > comfortable with the wordsmithing, leave some content in the wiki and
> > the Docs folks will be happy to clean up the prose.
> > 
> > Following the wiki freeze we still can make changes in the xml, so if
> > something comes up that should change the release notes, email myself or
> > Ryan Lerch and we will make the changes
> 
> That's not really acceptable. A reminder should have gone in much
> earlier. There is lots of content that needs to be updated and a day is
> just not enough.

You are right, there was a lapse in project management reminders.  The
release notes coordinators are leading for the first time, and us old
timers didn't give them good advice about keeping eyes on the
scheduling and nag mail.

Sadly, there isn't much slip room in this schedule that I see:

http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-11/f-11-docs-tasks.html

If you get a change in to the wiki by 2100 UTC on Thursday, you give
the Docs people very little time to review and convert it to XML for
the translation deadline.  I'll ask the release notes team if they can
make the freeze 'slushy', that is, soft and willing to take as many
last minute changes as they can.

Regardless, the wiki freeze is more "we are ignoring your changes and
won't guarantee they make the Preview Release notes."  Put the changes
in anyway.

We go through this every release.  Waiting until the last minute to
put "lots of content" in to the release notes beats is also
unacceptable.

Docs has been asking for more beat writers and content for some time.
We need real, raw content from the people who know, and we don't get
it. Then at the last moment, a trickle turns in to a flood.

Feature pages are a great start, where they have release note
information.  But we all know that the features are just a small
sampling of all the changes in the release.

Let's ask the Docs folk to be more consistent with the nagging, but
the developers and packagers need to fill more roles providing the raw
content, doing it early and right.

-Karsten, a Docs contributor
-- 
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
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From david.nalley at fedoraproject.org  Tue Mar 31 21:03:29 2009
From: david.nalley at fedoraproject.org (David Nalley)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:03:29 -0400
Subject: Publican Documentation Naming
In-Reply-To: <1238533073.3413.12.camel@thunder>
References: <1238523632.3219.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090331205404.GE24178@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238533073.3413.12.camel@thunder>
Message-ID: 

2009/3/31 Eric Christensen :
> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 16:54 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 02:20:32PM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
>> > Earlier today the Fedora Packaging Committee (FPC) looked at two
>> > "obstacles" to Publican-generated documentation. ?The first was the
>> > naming convention[1] and the second was how Publican handles
>> > the .desktop in the SPEC file[2]. ?Both passed the FPC.
>> >
>> > The FPC did say that we (the Docs Project) need to create a review
>> > process to ask "is this documentation really version specific? is there
>> > value in having multiple releases in the same dist at once?". ?This is
>> > an important test that we need to develop and handle in-house. ?This is
>> > NOT a solution to allow all Publican documents but it is a solution for
>> > allowing release-specific documents in Fedora.
>> >
>> > Also discussed was the multiple SRPMs that are generated by having
>> > multiple languages for each document. ?To simplify the process of
>> > reviewing these it was suggested that we use subpackaging. ?Each SRPM
>> > for each language would be wrapped into a single package.
>>
>> Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a moment -- one of the reasons
>> for splitting out SRPMs per language, AIUI, is that it allows fixed
>> translations to be issued quickly without having to rebuild the entire
>> gamut of all languages for a document. ?In other words, if someone
>> fixes the Security Guide's German (de) translation, you can simply
>> issue a new release of that package, and only people with the Security
>> Guide installed in German will get the update.
>>
>> As far as I know, you can't tell our build systems to only
>> release one subpackage, and hold back all the others. ?So if you want
>> to issue an update, you would be forced to issue all languages at
>> once, and you push an update on everyone, even people whose content is
>> not changing at all.
>>
>> Just my limited understanding, there may be good arguments on both
>> sides of course.
>
> Paul,
> I posed a similar question... ?I'm pasting the conversation:
>
> Sparks_Too> spot: I foresee a problem coming down the road. ?Each
> language is packaged independently. ?So that's going to mean a lot of
> packages hitting the review process within a short amount of time.
>  yeah I was about to bring that up as well.
>  Sparks_Too: each language is packaged independently?
>  seriously? that's just broken.
>  spot: Yes
>  another tool issue
> * tatica has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
>  Oh, please no.
>  yeah, i'm not going to let that slide.
>  spot: In RH the reasoning is so there aren't 200MB docs...
>  I suspect it's a plot to dramatically increase fedora package
> count :)
>  being downloaded for just one language.
>  learn about subpackages.
>  So you would be able to install a language versus a
> document.
>  If that makes sense.
>  subpackage ++
>  right, single srpm, 35 rpms
>  ke4qqq: This is a RH thing and not a Fedora thing.
>  subpackages should be fine
>  35 base packages would not be
>  spot: Okay, not familiar but would be.
>  s/would/will
>  Sparks_Too: basically, think of how the openssl package generates
> openssl and openssl-devel
>  it is just one package for review (openssl)
>  HowToFooAndBar could generate HTFAB-en and HTFAB-de
>  spot: Okay... so would we need ALL the languages in the
> package before it is approved?
>  No. ?You can just add a language once the package is in.
>  Sparks_Too: nope. you can add subpackages as they are done.
>  FPC, we're almost out of time
>  spot: Okay. ?That works for me. ?Our meeting is tomorrow so
> I'll bring it up then. ?I don't have a problem with any of this, just
> need to learn more.
>
> So when he said that not all the translations have to be in the package
> it sounded to me as if they weren't language specific and we wouldn't
> run into that problem.
>
> Eric
>
> --
> fedora-docs-list mailing list
> fedora-docs-list at redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
>

You'd be bumping the release number every iteration you added
something and thus a new 'version'

Toshio: Comments would be welcome here



From sundaram at fedoraproject.org  Tue Mar 31 21:28:51 2009
From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 02:58:51 +0530
Subject: Wiki Freeze Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <20090331205934.GG5688@calliope.phig.org>
References: <6268CAE1187543EF803DFB198B8AEBE3@Aidan>	<49D24000.6050506@fedoraproject.org>
	<20090331205934.GG5688@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <49D28B13.40909@fedoraproject.org>

Karsten Wade wrote:

> We go through this every release.  Waiting until the last minute to
> put "lots of content" in to the release notes beats is also
> unacceptable.

I really can't help that. Either I do all that work and not enough
content goes in and I don't have time to do the work with this schedule.
You can clearly see the difference in the quality of the overview
between Fedora 9 (where I had time to do it) vs Fedora 10 (where I
didn't). If other people step up, I am happy to let them.

Rahul






From a.badger at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 21:25:56 2009
From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:25:56 -0700
Subject: Publican Documentation Naming
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1238523632.3219.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<20090331205404.GE24178@localhost.localdomain>	<1238533073.3413.12.camel@thunder>
	
Message-ID: <49D28A64.7050503@gmail.com>

David Nalley wrote:
>> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 16:54 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Also discussed was the multiple SRPMs that are generated by having
>>>> multiple languages for each document.  To simplify the process of
>>>> reviewing these it was suggested that we use subpackaging.  Each SRPM
>>>> for each language would be wrapped into a single package.
>>> Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a moment -- one of the reasons
>>> for splitting out SRPMs per language, AIUI, is that it allows fixed
>>> translations to be issued quickly without having to rebuild the entire
>>> gamut of all languages for a document.  In other words, if someone
>>> fixes the Security Guide's German (de) translation, you can simply
>>> issue a new release of that package, and only people with the Security
>>> Guide installed in German will get the update.
>>>
>>> As far as I know, you can't tell our build systems to only
>>> release one subpackage, and hold back all the others.  So if you want
>>> to issue an update, you would be forced to issue all languages at
>>> once, and you push an update on everyone, even people whose content is
>>> not changing at all.
>>>
>>> Just my limited understanding, there may be good arguments on both
>>> sides of course.

> 
> You'd be bumping the release number every iteration you added
> something and thus a new 'version'
> 
> Toshio: Comments would be welcome here
> 

Yeah, I think Paul is pointing to a very real problem here which wasn't
apparent in the meeting earlier.  Let me make a little chart of the
drawbacks of each style:

One source package, one binary package per language:
* Each time one language is updated, the source package is rebuilt into
many binary rpms.  Even if there are changes to only one language.  This
means that new packages will be available for the user to download and
install on next update.
  - This is mitigated a little if presto support is working for F11 as
presto should keep users from actually downloading things that haven't
changed.  it still means that the update system (PackageKit) will detect
changes and want them to update, though.
  - Even with Presto, it makes it hard to determine when changes
actually occur to a specific translation of a document if there's a
bunch of releases where the changes only happened to another
translation.  Maybe it's not as problematic with documentation as with
code, though....

One source package per language per Fedora release:
* This quickly creates a lot of packages which will all need packagers
and reviewers.
* The packages will need to be rebuilt whenever that translation changes
which means packagers will have to track changes to the many documents
involved.

If docs manpower scales to the task, I'd say tackling the problems with
one-source-package-per-language would better fit how I visualize the
documentation.  If you think this is the case then we can carry the new
issue of updating all translations of the package when just a single
translation has changed over to fedora-packaging list.

If you think there will be a struggle to meet these needs, maybe we need
to think of a different solution.

-Toshio

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From wb8rcr at arrl.net  Tue Mar 31 21:37:41 2009
From: wb8rcr at arrl.net (John J. McDonough)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:37:41 -0400
Subject: Wiki Freeze Tomorrow
References: <6268CAE1187543EF803DFB198B8AEBE3@Aidan><49D24000.6050506@fedoraproject.org><20090331205934.GG5688@calliope.phig.org>
	<200903312330.01481.opensource@till.name>
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Till Maas" 
To: ; "For participants of the Documentation 
Project" 
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Wiki Freeze Tomorrow


> Does the freeze affect the Preview Release notes or
> for the GA Release notes?

They pretty much amount to the same thing.  There is a chance for some 
"small" changes between preview and release, but the real problem is that 
the translators need time to work their magic, and they are expecting the 
strings Thursday night.

--McD




From stickster at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 22:07:39 2009
From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:07:39 -0400
Subject: Publican Documentation Naming
In-Reply-To: <1238533073.3413.12.camel@thunder>
References: <1238523632.3219.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090331205404.GE24178@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238533073.3413.12.camel@thunder>
Message-ID: <20090331220739.GG24178@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 04:57:53PM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 16:54 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 02:20:32PM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
> > > Earlier today the Fedora Packaging Committee (FPC) looked at two
> > > "obstacles" to Publican-generated documentation.  The first was the
> > > naming convention[1] and the second was how Publican handles
> > > the .desktop in the SPEC file[2].  Both passed the FPC.
> > > 
> > > The FPC did say that we (the Docs Project) need to create a review
> > > process to ask "is this documentation really version specific? is there
> > > value in having multiple releases in the same dist at once?".  This is
> > > an important test that we need to develop and handle in-house.  This is
> > > NOT a solution to allow all Publican documents but it is a solution for
> > > allowing release-specific documents in Fedora.
> > > 
> > > Also discussed was the multiple SRPMs that are generated by having
> > > multiple languages for each document.  To simplify the process of
> > > reviewing these it was suggested that we use subpackaging.  Each SRPM
> > > for each language would be wrapped into a single package.
> > 
> > Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a moment -- one of the reasons
> > for splitting out SRPMs per language, AIUI, is that it allows fixed
> > translations to be issued quickly without having to rebuild the entire
> > gamut of all languages for a document.  In other words, if someone
> > fixes the Security Guide's German (de) translation, you can simply
> > issue a new release of that package, and only people with the Security
> > Guide installed in German will get the update.
> > 
> > As far as I know, you can't tell our build systems to only
> > release one subpackage, and hold back all the others.  So if you want
> > to issue an update, you would be forced to issue all languages at
> > once, and you push an update on everyone, even people whose content is
> > not changing at all.
> > 
> > Just my limited understanding, there may be good arguments on both
> > sides of course.
> 
> Paul,
> I posed a similar question...  I'm pasting the conversation:
> 
> Sparks_Too> spot: I foresee a problem coming down the road.  Each
> language is packaged independently.  So that's going to mean a lot of
> packages hitting the review process within a short amount of time.
>  yeah I was about to bring that up as well.
>  Sparks_Too: each language is packaged independently?
>  seriously? that's just broken.
>  spot: Yes
>  another tool issue
> * tatica has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
>  Oh, please no.
>  yeah, i'm not going to let that slide.
>  spot: In RH the reasoning is so there aren't 200MB docs...
>  I suspect it's a plot to dramatically increase fedora package
> count :)
>  being downloaded for just one language.
>  learn about subpackages.
>  So you would be able to install a language versus a
> document.
>  If that makes sense.
>  subpackage ++
>  right, single srpm, 35 rpms
>  ke4qqq: This is a RH thing and not a Fedora thing.
>  subpackages should be fine
>  35 base packages would not be
>  spot: Okay, not familiar but would be.
>  s/would/will
>  Sparks_Too: basically, think of how the openssl package generates
> openssl and openssl-devel
>  it is just one package for review (openssl)
>  HowToFooAndBar could generate HTFAB-en and HTFAB-de
>  spot: Okay... so would we need ALL the languages in the
> package before it is approved?
>  No.  You can just add a language once the package is in.
>  Sparks_Too: nope. you can add subpackages as they are done.
>  FPC, we're almost out of time
>  spot: Okay.  That works for me.  Our meeting is tomorrow so
> I'll bring it up then.  I don't have a problem with any of this, just
> need to learn more.
> 
> So when he said that not all the translations have to be in the package
> it sounded to me as if they weren't language specific and we wouldn't
> run into that problem.

I think we're talking apples and oranges here.  Let me see if I can
clarify.  This might be pedantic for people who already do packaging
(and if there are errors, of course you should blame me!).

In most cases in Fedora, subpackages make good sense.  If you are
packaging "libfoo," a library that provides a capability for "foo,"
you generally have one libfoo SRPM that generates several other
packages -- libfoo and libfoo-devel, for example.  (There might also
be an automatically generated libfoo-debuginfo, but let's leave that
aside for now.)

When you change something in the libfoo package to fix a bug, bumping
the release from libfoo-1.0-1 to libfoo-1.0-2, it makes very good
sense to push new libfoo and libfoo-devel packages at one time.  The
possibility that things *might* change from libfoo-1.0-1 to
libfoo-1.0-2 make it a good practice to simply always act as if they
*have* changed when issuing new packages.  When you issue a new
libfoo-1.0-2, you'll always push out a new libfoo-devel-1.0-2 as well.

Now, that works fine for documentation too, in *that* case -- in other
words, if you make some changes to the basic Security Guide, you would
of course want to push out the newest Guide in all languages.  But
here's where the subpackage use breaks down: You never see packagers
issuing a new libfoo-devel package without libfoo changing.  And that
can *definitely* happen in documentation.

For example, you could add a new, previously unused translation to
your Guide.  Using subpackaging, in order to issue it, you'd have to
rebuild the entire set of languages, and when you do, our build system
-- as far as I know -- won't let you just push the one new language
subpackage out.  It would require *all* the language subpackages to be
reissued, even if they hadn't changed at all.

Here's another twist that might make subpackages even more
unpalatable.  It implies that there will be a *resistance* to pushing
out translation fixes quickly.  There will be a tendency to wait
before reissuing packages.  Subpackages may lower the workload for a
small Docs team -- you could only issue a quarterly update, or on some
other regular but liveable basis -- but arguably at the cost of
friction with the translation teams.

I also think subpackaging makes life harder for the Docs team member
responsible for a Guide.  The job of coordinating translations for a
specific mass release in one big package is quite a bit more wearying
than pushing out updated translations onesie-twosie style as they
come.  (Package rebuilds and pushes are generally very easy with our
tools.)

Just some food for thought.  And of course, it would have been great
to have this stuff considered way back when in the requirements phase
for the tool, but hindsight, and all that.  Hope this information
helps the Docs team.

I'm cc'ing Spot because I don't know if he's on this list.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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From ianweller at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 22:42:44 2009
From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:42:44 -0500
Subject: Publican Documentation Naming
In-Reply-To: <20090331205404.GE24178@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238523632.3219.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090331205404.GE24178@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090331224244.GA20998@gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 04:54:04PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> As far as I know, you can't tell our build systems to only
> release one subpackage, and hold back all the others.  So if you want
> to issue an update, you would be forced to issue all languages at
> once, and you push an update on everyone, even people whose content is
> not changing at all.
> 
However if the packages do not require each other (makes sense) and they
are subpackages, one can only choose certain subpackages to submit as an
update to Bodhi, IIRC.

-- 
Ian Weller 
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36
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From opensource at till.name  Tue Mar 31 21:29:52 2009
From: opensource at till.name (Till Maas)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:29:52 +0200
Subject: Wiki Freeze Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <20090331205934.GG5688@calliope.phig.org>
References: <6268CAE1187543EF803DFB198B8AEBE3@Aidan>
	<49D24000.6050506@fedoraproject.org>
	<20090331205934.GG5688@calliope.phig.org>
Message-ID: <200903312330.01481.opensource@till.name>

On Di M?rz 31 2009, Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 09:38:32PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > John J. McDonough wrote:
> > > The wiki freeze is scheduled for tomorrow.  If you plan to add some
> > > release notes content to the wiki, time is getting short.
>
> To be clear, this refers only to the documentation beats used for the
> release notes:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats
[...]
> Regardless, the wiki freeze is more "we are ignoring your changes and
> won't guarantee they make the Preview Release notes."  Put the changes
> in anyway.

Does the freeze affect the Preview Release notes or for the GA Release notes?
Regards,
Till
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From tcallawa at redhat.com  Tue Mar 31 22:14:56 2009
From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:14:56 -0400
Subject: Publican Documentation Naming
In-Reply-To: <20090331220739.GG24178@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1238523632.3219.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090331205404.GE24178@localhost.localdomain>
	<1238533073.3413.12.camel@thunder>
	<20090331220739.GG24178@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <49D295E0.4010402@redhat.com>

On 03/31/2009 06:07 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> Now, that works fine for documentation too, in *that* case -- in other
> words, if you make some changes to the basic Security Guide, you would
> of course want to push out the newest Guide in all languages.  But
> here's where the subpackage use breaks down: You never see packagers
> issuing a new libfoo-devel package without libfoo changing.  And that
> can *definitely* happen in documentation.

Sure. We see this happening all the time, for bug fixes.

> For example, you could add a new, previously unused translation to
> your Guide.  Using subpackaging, in order to issue it, you'd have to
> rebuild the entire set of languages, and when you do, our build system
> -- as far as I know -- won't let you just push the one new language
> subpackage out.  It would require *all* the language subpackages to be
> reissued, even if they hadn't changed at all.

You could, but how often does this _ACTUALLY_ happen?

> Here's another twist that might make subpackages even more
> unpalatable.  It implies that there will be a *resistance* to pushing
> out translation fixes quickly.  There will be a tendency to wait
> before reissuing packages.  Subpackages may lower the workload for a
> small Docs team -- you could only issue a quarterly update, or on some
> other regular but liveable basis -- but arguably at the cost of
> friction with the translation teams.

Honestly, if this is a significant enough problem to need solving, we
should solve it with other mechanisms than overloading CVS with hundreds
of otherwise identical packages.

We could find a way for koji to build specific subpackages for
translated %doc packages. The spec files would need a set of
conditionals, and we'd need to standardize on lang variables, then build
a mechanism to pass the conditionals through to the builder.

I would prefer that mechanism, for example. I suspect that Jesse would
too (but I'm CC'ing him in case I'm wrong).

~spot