From retheisen at yahoo.com Tue Apr 12 19:22:22 2005 From: retheisen at yahoo.com (Robert Theisen) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: test Message-ID: <20050412192222.13489.qmail@web50103.mail.yahoo.com> Hello __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 12 19:26:11 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:26:11 -0700 Subject: first post! ... and some list definitions Message-ID: <1113277492.13288.40.camel@erato.phig.org> Howdy FDSCo-ers: This first post is a chance to welcome everyone (hi! sorry for rudely force-mass-subscribing you all), and to expand a bit on the list guidelines. Then we can easily refer back to message 1. General List Nonsense The size limit for posting is set to 0, which means in Mailman, you can send attachments of any size. It is expected that you won't do this, but if you need to, do it. This is available for your discretion. Try to use a file server and a URI, thanks. This is an open list, public archives, and requires subscriber confirmation to join. The only limitation on the list is the topic. On topic is anything that is a discussion about FDSCo business, and normally between FDSCo members. Off topic is anything else, and it either belongs on fedora-docs-list or somewhere else. I've opted not to include a recognizable subject line marker such as [FDSCo]. There are useful headers in these messages you can sort by, such as X-BeenThere. Reply-to munging has been turned off. You are forgiven if you reply-to- all and don't clean-up the To: and Cc: fields. ;-) This is the list that will receive meeting minutes, aka IRC logs. ## 30 ## - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 12 19:30:37 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:30:37 -0700 Subject: meeting schedule Message-ID: <1113334238.13288.68.camel@erato.phig.org> To set this officially in paperstone: FDSCo meetings are every Tuesday at 2000 GMT / 2100 BST / 1600 EDT / 1500 CDT / 1300 PDT. Location is irc.freenode.net, #fedora-docs. First meeting is 18 April 2005. I'll post an agenda for that within the next few days so we can pre- discuss, amend, and/or resolve points. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 19:36:40 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:36:40 -0400 Subject: meeting schedule In-Reply-To: <1113334238.13288.68.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113334238.13288.68.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113334600.7722.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 12:30 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > To set this officially in paperstone: > > FDSCo meetings are every Tuesday at 2000 GMT / 2100 BST / 1600 EDT / > 1500 CDT / 1300 PDT. Location is irc.freenode.net, #fedora-docs. > > First meeting is 18 April 2005. > > I'll post an agenda for that within the next few days so we can pre- > discuss, amend, and/or resolve points. Fortunately our paperstonemason has agreed to make this reflect Tuesday, 19 April 2005! ;-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Apr 12 19:58:01 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 20:58:01 +0100 Subject: meeting schedule In-Reply-To: <1113334600.7722.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1113334238.13288.68.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113334600.7722.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504122058.01461.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Tuesday 12 Apr 2005 20:36, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 12:30 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > To set this officially in paperstone: > > > > FDSCo meetings are every Tuesday at 2000 GMT / 2100 BST / 1600 EDT / > > 1500 CDT / 1300 PDT. Location is irc.freenode.net, #fedora-docs. > > > > First meeting is 18 April 2005. > > > > I'll post an agenda for that within the next few days so we can pre- > > discuss, amend, and/or resolve points. > > Fortunately our paperstonemason has agreed to make this reflect Tuesday, > 19 April 2005! ;-) Good. I'm there. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From tfox at redhat.com Tue Apr 12 20:39:31 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:39:31 -0400 Subject: meeting schedule In-Reply-To: <1113334238.13288.68.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113334238.13288.68.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113338371.5843.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 12:30 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > To set this officially in paperstone: > > FDSCo meetings are every Tuesday at 2000 GMT / 2100 BST / 1600 EDT / > 1500 CDT / 1300 PDT. Location is irc.freenode.net, #fedora-docs. > After all the debate on the time, it turns out my 1900 GMT meeting was moved. So, if we want to do 1500 EDT instead so Paul doesn't have to get off work early, that's cool with me. Tammy > First meeting is 18 April 2005. > > I'll post an agenda for that within the next few days so we can pre- > discuss, amend, and/or resolve points. > > - Karsten > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 11:48:18 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:48:18 -0400 Subject: meeting schedule In-Reply-To: <1113338371.5843.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1113334238.13288.68.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113338371.5843.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1113392898.6744.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 16:39 -0400, Tammy Fox wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 12:30 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > To set this officially in paperstone: > > > > FDSCo meetings are every Tuesday at 2000 GMT / 2100 BST / 1600 EDT / > > 1500 CDT / 1300 PDT. Location is irc.freenode.net, #fedora-docs. > > > > After all the debate on the time, it turns out my 1900 GMT meeting was > moved. So, if we want to do 1500 EDT instead so Paul doesn't have to get > off work early, that's cool with me. Actually, 1500 is worse for me, since I can't do this during work hours. Is it OK if we stay with the above schedule? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tfox at redhat.com Wed Apr 13 14:58:11 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:58:11 -0400 Subject: meeting schedule In-Reply-To: <1113392898.6744.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1113334238.13288.68.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113338371.5843.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1113392898.6744.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1113404292.5848.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 07:48 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 16:39 -0400, Tammy Fox wrote: > > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 12:30 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > To set this officially in paperstone: > > > > > > FDSCo meetings are every Tuesday at 2000 GMT / 2100 BST / 1600 EDT / > > > 1500 CDT / 1300 PDT. Location is irc.freenode.net, #fedora-docs. > > > > > > > After all the debate on the time, it turns out my 1900 GMT meeting was > > moved. So, if we want to do 1500 EDT instead so Paul doesn't have to get > > off work early, that's cool with me. > > Actually, 1500 is worse for me, since I can't do this during work hours. > Is it OK if we stay with the above schedule? > Oh right. We can stick with the original time then. ;-) Tammy > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 13 20:33:49 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:33:49 -0700 Subject: CVS access! Message-ID: <1113424430.13288.132.camel@erato.phig.org> Ah, yes. :) https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ Read the whole page to learn the steps you need to follow. The section about the client-side cert doesn't apply to us. Everyone, including @redhat.com folks, need to create an account. After you have "Edit(ed) your account" and added your self to the cvsdocs group, I'll approve your access. As your sponsor, I'll ask you kindly not to mess anything up because I likely can't fix it very well. :) As of right now, we're only doing FDSCo members. After some period of time we decide upon, we can open up for the few other people who need CVS access. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 13 21:08:51 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:08:51 -0700 Subject: CVS access! In-Reply-To: <1113424430.13288.132.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113424430.13288.132.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113426531.13288.135.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 13:33 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > As your sponsor, I'll ask you kindly not to mess anything up because I > likely can't fix it very well. :) Elliott informs me that sponsorship is an option, which we don't have enabled. We can discuss if we want to do this or not. I mainly meant, if you have CVS problems or break something, I likely can't fix them. But I'll help however I can. ;-) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Apr 14 08:40:26 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 03:40:26 -0500 Subject: CVS access! In-Reply-To: <1113426531.13288.135.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113424430.13288.132.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113426531.13288.135.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050414034026.42f32d34.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > I mainly meant, if you have CVS problems or break something, I likely > can't fix them. But I'll help however I can. ;-) I've created my account, but it's just sitting there as "unapproved" ;-( Is there anything else I need to do? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 21:32:33 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:32:33 -0400 Subject: Webcal .ics Message-ID: <1113514353.4764.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> I notice that the FESCO regular meetings are on the Fedora schedule webcal (.ics) to which I subscribe. Is there any chance we could use this outlet for showing FDSCO meetings as well? It would be mighty convenient, and a good use of open management and standards as well. :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 From sopwith at redhat.com Thu Apr 14 22:10:15 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Webcal .ics In-Reply-To: <1113514353.4764.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1113514353.4764.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I notice that the FESCO regular meetings are on the Fedora schedule > webcal (.ics) to which I subscribe. Is there any chance we could use > this outlet for showing FDSCO meetings as well? It would be mighty > convenient, and a good use of open management and standards as well. :-) I maintain that calendar - you can send me items directly (and ignore it when my personal life winds up on the wrong calendar :-). When's the FDSCO meetings at? Best, -- Elliot From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Thu Apr 14 22:21:00 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:21:00 -0500 Subject: CVS access! In-Reply-To: <20050414034026.42f32d34.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1113424430.13288.132.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113426531.13288.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050414034026.42f32d34.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <20050414172100.7159f86b.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Tommy Reynolds , spake thus: > Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > > I mainly meant, if you have CVS problems or break something, I likely > > can't fix them. But I'll help however I can. ;-) > I've created my account, but it's just sitting there as "unapproved" ;-( > Is there anything else I need to do? Karsten, My CVS account is still "unapproved" after a couple of days. What is the hangup? Cheers! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 22:35:40 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:35:40 -0400 Subject: Webcal .ics In-Reply-To: References: <1113514353.4764.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1113518140.4764.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-14 at 18:10 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > I notice that the FESCO regular meetings are on the Fedora schedule > > webcal (.ics) to which I subscribe. Is there any chance we could use > > this outlet for showing FDSCO meetings as well? It would be mighty > > convenient, and a good use of open management and standards as well. :-) > > I maintain that calendar - you can send me items directly (and ignore it > when my personal life winds up on the wrong calendar :-). When's the FDSCO > meetings at? Tuesday, 2000 GMT (4:00 p.m. EDT). You're a gentleman and a scholar, sir. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 18 14:26:12 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:26:12 -0700 Subject: CVS access! In-Reply-To: <20050414172100.7159f86b.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1113424430.13288.132.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113426531.13288.135.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050414034026.42f32d34.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <20050414172100.7159f86b.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1113834372.13288.161.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-04-14 at 17:21 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Tommy Reynolds , spake thus: > > > Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > > > I mainly meant, if you have CVS problems or break something, I likely > > > can't fix them. But I'll help however I can. ;-) > > I've created my account, but it's just sitting there as "unapproved" ;-( > > Is there anything else I need to do? > > Karsten, > > My CVS account is still "unapproved" after a couple of days. What is > the hangup? I was out of town camping. :) Sorry, I forgot to include myself in the approval process. I'm guessing you are 'jtr' but I want to be sure before I approve. cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 16:06:37 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:06:37 -0400 Subject: Agenda addition Message-ID: <1113840397.5482.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Karsten, I have a potential add for the first meeting agenda (4/19): * Discuss any applicable pre-existing policies, as well as FDP-specific additional policies, for CVS usage For those of us who are neither frequent CVS users nor @redhat.com, guidelines would be very helpful. Example questions from exceedingly naive individuals such as myself might include: "How do I know when I can add something to CVS?" "Whom should I consult before making editorial changes to an existing document?" "Whom should I consult before making cosmetic/trivial changes to an existing document?" "How sacrosanct is the CSS setup?" "Err... should I only be seeing CVSROOT in the repository right now?" It's very important to me, as a new CVSer, that I know the limits of my empowerment, so to speak. I want to Get the Work Done, but I don't want to step on toes along the way when avoidable. I don't work in a group software project environment as part of my daily work functions, so these answers aren't self-evident to me. Quick scans through existing CVS documentation doesn't reveal much in the way of the "meta- policies" (?) that may be in place. Hopefully this won't skew our first meeting too much. If this is better discussed here on the list, anyone who can shed light on the topic is free to chime in. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Mon Apr 18 22:01:32 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:01:32 -0500 Subject: Webcal .ics In-Reply-To: References: <1113514353.4764.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050418170132.3f605d46.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Elliot Lee , spake thus: > I maintain that calendar - you can send me items directly (and ignore it > when my personal life winds up on the wrong calendar :-). When's the FDSCO > meetings at? Where's the calendar at? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sopwith at redhat.com Mon Apr 18 22:14:40 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Webcal .ics In-Reply-To: <20050418170132.3f605d46.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1113514353.4764.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050418170132.3f605d46.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Elliot Lee , spake thus: > > > I maintain that calendar - you can send me items directly (and ignore it > > when my personal life winds up on the wrong calendar :-). When's the FDSCO > > meetings at? > > Where's the calendar at? The link is at http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/schedule/ -- Elliot From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 19 01:40:24 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:40:24 -0700 Subject: Agenda addition In-Reply-To: <1113840397.5482.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1113840397.5482.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1113874824.13288.186.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 12:06 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Karsten, > > I have a potential add for the first meeting agenda (4/19): > > * Discuss any applicable pre-existing policies, as well as FDP-specific > additional policies, for CVS usage I think we need to discuss this here then decide upon it in a meeting. For starters, I think only a writer or editor of a particular document should be mucking about in those specific directories. We can consider sub-directories such as xsl/, css/, and common/ to also have specific editors/maintainers. Since we have only a few roles defined, those are the only ones that apply. Otherwise, I reckon it's me and Tammy. Incentive to delegate. :) > For those of us who are neither frequent CVS users nor @redhat.com, > guidelines would be very helpful. Example questions from exceedingly > naive individuals such as myself might include: > > "How do I know when I can add something to CVS?" > "Whom should I consult before making editorial changes to an existing > document?" > "Whom should I consult before making cosmetic/trivial changes to an > existing document?" > "How sacrosanct is the CSS setup?" > "Err... should I only be seeing CVSROOT in the repository right now?" > > It's very important to me, as a new CVSer, that I know the limits of my > empowerment, so to speak. I want to Get the Work Done, but I don't want > to step on toes along the way when avoidable. I don't work in a group > software project environment as part of my daily work functions, so > these answers aren't self-evident to me. Quick scans through existing > CVS documentation doesn't reveal much in the way of the "meta- > policies" (?) that may be in place. I _think_ people tend to stick within their project directories, i.e., modules. That's how we do it on the RH docs team. One tree per guide, and one person 0wns it. For FDP, I'd like to see collaboration possible within directories. We'll need some lightweight policy in place, such as, coordinate with your project team on who is committing what to where, use intelligent naming and division of
s into files, etc. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 19 09:24:12 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 02:24:12 -0700 Subject: Agenda for 19-Apr-2005 meeting Message-ID: <1113902652.13288.236.camel@erato.phig.org> For the meeting tomorrow (today), this is the agenda with associated background/links. I don't know yet how we are going to work this via IRC. It's obviously not the best medium for long discussion. 1. Go over the FDP-SC charter, discuss, adopt http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Charter This is an active document. Let's address any ideas and concerns, fix up the doc in real time, and adopt it. 2. CVS - Rules around becoming a committer (unassigned) - Collaboration instructions (unassigned) Looking for someone to write up a draft for us to review. Within two weeks? 3. Make first active tasks list for Wiki Bring any ideas you want to discuss, or tasks you _don't_ want to see on the list. We'll also try to prioritize them. ;-) 4. Status checks we might want: * Process doc(s) - FDSCo processes (Mark) - FDP processes (i.e., what is embodied in Quick Start) (Karsten) - How to assign writers and editors (unassigned) cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Apr 19 09:35:49 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:35:49 +0100 Subject: Agenda addition In-Reply-To: <1113874824.13288.186.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113840397.5482.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1113874824.13288.186.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113903349.27625.232200420@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:40:24 -0700, "Karsten Wade" said: "For starters, I think only a writer or editor of a particular document should be mucking about in those specific directories." I suppose that the main process thing then, is for us to keep a list of who maintains which documents/modules. "I _think_ people tend to stick within their project directories, i.e., modules. That's how we do it on the RH docs team. One tree per guide, and one person 0wns it." FWIW, I like the simplicity of having a single named maintainer for accountability purposes, even if the work is being by multiple people. "For FDP, I'd like to see collaboration possible within directories. We'll need some lightweight policy in place, such as, coordinate with your project team on who is committing what to where, use intelligent naming and division of
s into files, etc." This may sound like a nitpick... Perhaps "guidelines" rather than "policy" ? Different documents may develop different maintenance arrangements to suit the circumstances (e.g. Release Notes vs. Install Guide vs. a tutorial). (The odd quoting is because I'm on Webmail). -- Stuart Ellis From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Tue Apr 19 12:41:54 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:41:54 +0100 Subject: Agenda for 19-Apr-2005 meeting In-Reply-To: <1113902652.13288.236.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113902652.13288.236.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113914514.8632.232210146@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 02:24:12 -0700, "Karsten Wade" said: "I don't know yet how we are going to work this via IRC. It's obviously not the best medium for long discussion." Perhaps we can triage the issues - if anything that looks like it will require long discussion we note that it will require a mailing list thread, and move on. "http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Charter This is an active document. Let's address any ideas and concerns, fix up the doc in real time, and adopt it." The only suggestion I have is that we may or may not want to explicitly have some of the timespans in release cycles, rather than in terms of months. Beyond that I'm happy to vote for this as is. "Make first active tasks list for Wiki" Is there a Wiki page up already (I had a look and couldn't see one) ? -- Stuart Ellis From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 19 16:14:54 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:14:54 -0700 Subject: Agenda for 19-Apr-2005 meeting In-Reply-To: <1113914514.8632.232210146@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1113902652.13288.236.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113914514.8632.232210146@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1113927294.5360.27.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 13:41 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 02:24:12 -0700, "Karsten Wade" > said: > > "I don't know yet how we are going to work this via IRC. It's obviously > not the best medium for long discussion." > > Perhaps we can triage the issues - if anything that looks like it will > require long discussion we note that it will require a mailing list > thread, and move on. > > > "http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Charter > > This is an active document. Let's address any ideas and concerns, fix > up the doc in real time, and adopt it." > > The only suggestion I have is that we may or may not want to explicitly > have some of the timespans in release cycles, rather than in terms of > months. Beyond that I'm happy to vote for this as is. Good idea > > "Make first active tasks list for Wiki" > > Is there a Wiki page up already (I had a look and couldn't see one) ? Nah, it was just referenced in the charter: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/MasterTasks I created a blank page, we can populate it later today. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 19 20:01:54 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:01:54 -0700 Subject: Agenda addition In-Reply-To: <1113903349.27625.232200420@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1113840397.5482.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1113874824.13288.186.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113903349.27625.232200420@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1113940915.5360.63.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 10:35 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:40:24 -0700, "Karsten Wade" > said: > > "For starters, I think only a writer or editor of a particular document > should be mucking about in those specific directories." > > I suppose that the main process thing then, is for us to keep a list of > who maintains which documents/modules. Yeah, Wiki just to be easier. > "I _think_ people tend to stick within their project directories, i.e., > modules. That's how we do it on the RH docs team. One tree per guide, > and one person 0wns it." > > FWIW, I like the simplicity of having a single named maintainer for > accountability purposes, even if the work is being by multiple people. I tend to agree with this. > "For FDP, I'd like to see collaboration possible within directories. > We'll need some lightweight policy in place, such as, coordinate with > your project team on who is committing what to where, use intelligent > naming and division of
s into files, etc." > > This may sound like a nitpick... Perhaps "guidelines" rather than > "policy" ? Different documents may develop different maintenance > arrangements to suit the circumstances (e.g. Release Notes vs. Install > Guide vs. a tutorial). I actually appreciate these kind of attentions to word choices. I use words such as process, rules, and policy, where softer words can be chosen. Many people balk at the ideas those words raise in them, and I've noticed lately this happening. I'll watch out for my usage, thanks to you for the suggestion. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Apr 19 21:05:02 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:05:02 +0100 Subject: Suggestion for doc format to be submitted by new authors Message-ID: <200504192205.03673.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> POD: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlpod.html http://perldoc.perl.org/search.html?q=pod -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 21:15:43 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:15:43 -0400 Subject: Suggestion for doc format to be submitted by new authors In-Reply-To: <200504192205.26917.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> References: <200504192205.26917.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1113945343.4851.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 22:05 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > POD: > > http://perldoc.perl.org/perlpod.html > http://perldoc.perl.org/search.html?q=pod Cool, I don't see any reason why this can't be turned into DocBook/XML as easily as anything else. Karsten is putting up a page where we will be able to create (or create a link to) a page tracking comments for changes to the DocGuide... We'll add them to BZ as we go, as a FDSCo task. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Tue Apr 19 21:42:14 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:42:14 +0100 Subject: Suggestion for doc format to be submitted by new authors In-Reply-To: <1113945343.4851.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200504192205.26917.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> <1113945343.4851.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504192242.15382.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Tuesday 19 Apr 2005 22:15, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 22:05 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > POD: > > > > http://perldoc.perl.org/perlpod.html > > http://perldoc.perl.org/search.html?q=pod > > Cool, I don't see any reason why this can't be turned into DocBook/XML > as easily as anything else. Karsten is putting up a page where we will > be able to create (or create a link to) a page tracking comments for > changes to the DocGuide... We'll add them to BZ as we go, as a FDSCo > task. You can use: http://search.cpan.org/~nandu/Pod-DocBook-1.2/lib/Pod/DocBook.pm And: http://search.cpan.org/~nandu/Pod-DocBook-1.2/pod2docbook -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Tue Apr 19 21:50:41 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:50:41 -0500 Subject: Suggestion for doc format to be submitted by new authors In-Reply-To: <1113945343.4851.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200504192205.26917.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> <1113945343.4851.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050419165041.377cb57e.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > http://perldoc.perl.org/perlpod.html > > http://perldoc.perl.org/search.html?q=pod > > Cool, I don't see any reason why this can't be turned into DocBook/XML > as easily as anything else. There is a CPAN tool to automate this Pod::DocBook, although I can't vouch for how much cleanup would be needed. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 19 22:01:10 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:01:10 -0700 Subject: minutes for 19-Apr-2005 meeting Message-ID: <1113948071.5360.71.camel@erato.phig.org> Ideally, just the is what mattered, but I am taking editors license to include a bit of the out-of-band conversation that cleared up a few items: ## begin Hi, welcome, [paste prepared remarks here] oops, forgot to prepare some Auspicious! Suspicious! really though, thanks for taking your personal time to attend to this meeting and your Fedora work. even though Tammy, Mark, and I work at RH, unlike developers, Fedora time is not neccesarily part of our job descriptions. so we too feel (some) of the pain. Okay, break out the violins. so, knowing we are going to wander off-topic _anyway_ might as well just jump into the agenda * tcf hears music * stickster did read it just to enter into the record the motion by elliss to use timespans of release cycles in the charter instead of fixed months * quaid will use this log to edit from later yes, as they drift a little a drift you can almost set your watch by. Mark and I worked on the charter to attempt to focus it on scope and not process/how-to I left in some process just so it would have a home for now, and that stuff is likely to move on to a process-doc later. N.B. the process docs link that is to be populated later... that was a good move other than that, I'm married to the ideas but not any of the details, per se. so tear it apart, or whatever, if there are any comments: * quaid waits I like the document a lot. quaid: do we have to be called "fud-suck" I thought it was F-Disco eff-disco where's the link again, I;m blind http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Charter got it I was one too high under name, it says: 'The Fedora Documentation Steering Committee, also known as FDSC. Convention suggests latter be pronounced "fud- suck".' oops ;-) feel free to edit :) At least now it's in the log... Is there any succession plan requirement? that's true, I'll capture it later. stickster: how do you mean? I'm thinking of, you know, freak accidents... assassination attempts... man, it's sometimes spooky how much we think alike. jk... actually, more in terms of nominations for replacements, voting them in, and so forth Is that too processy? Yes. I dunno I had stuff like that in there, and took it out to leave for Mark to fool with./ IMHO voting gets devisive e.g. Debian Good point Perhaps this is something best left to the chair, i.e. simple appointments yes. The right people will become appart. Let's use the kernel method. Good enough aparent whatever spelling consensus! How do we get a sufficient population for a meaningful choice? I tend to agree ... but we can consider this a bit more when we work on the process docs, I do like a contact to spell how you get into _and_ out of it. megacoder: I think we'll get more from the community than from within RH quaid: Right Suits Can we start on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/MasterTasks megacoder: I think the population will also increase with the opening of CVS and the feeling that people are joining a thriving project G2: as an agenda item or are you offering to start editing it? quaid: either Is the plan to formally agree the Charter next meeting ? G2: two steps, almost there elliss: I was hoping to agree this meeting, but we may need to postpone so we can have all present/all heard. Ok. Why don't we go ahead and move to accept the charter, pending those changes just mentioned in the log? but if there are no other points for the charter discussion ... Isn't a quorum a sufficient quantity? --> mrj (~mjohnson at cpe-024-163-064-126.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #fedora-docs oh, true, do we have a quorum? hey! howdie that was spoooky Sweet very what about the face-to-face meeting I think it's a good idea... not a requirement but strongly encouraged G2: it was a suggestion from gregdek that I liked ... but darn if I know right now how to implement it. seconded mrj: we were just moving to accept the charter, pending the few changes mentioned in the logs aye, but you'll all have to come to Aberdeen ;-) I'm not necc. ag'in that. quaid: ok. just looked it over. i vote yes How about asking for some sponsorships from the distro makers? I accpet the Charter I accept as long as "fud-suck" is removed ;-) tcf: so noted :) Seconded ha any nays? nay yay way ? stickster: mrj is naying that there are nays, and I am cheering, and he is using Valley slang "Wayyyy ...." * quaid swings his gavel once twice quaid: Outstanding charter accepted * tcf notes that this is what happens when too many grammar nerds get together the crowd goes wild... * stickster applauds, then realizes he is alone mrj: You don't sound very sick? ;-) * tcf hears white noise White smoke is being reported... more to follow all right, the charter as a topic is always open, can be brought up in the forgotten "Misc." section of the agenda ... moving on ... mrj: I reported that I heard you went home feeling icky so, about CVS stuff true, hence no process docs we had a wee discussion with Elliott this morning here Right the gist of it was, he agrees with the minimalist approach. Does anyone have a list of docs in the CVS tree? I'll check it out and check. What is active? tell people to play nicely and communicate, then give them CVS access. G2: the fedora-docs module just got imported into /cvs/docs this mornign ok. sorry carry on. stickster: since you brought it up and are interested, can you write something up that tells how FDP uses CVS? perhaps on the Wiki. When someone comes in with a tutorial idea, I think it would be a good idea to be able to assign them a folder, and acl them... yes, 'zactly stickster: I agree. quaid: OK, I'll draw something up and post over the next few hours/days stickster: It gives them a nice feeling that we care and want their contribution G2: right quaid: Tech P-of-O... stickster: just the single addition to that idea that is docs specific, how about: * editors and writers of a particular doc are the only ones who shouldbe mucking about Yes we also need to update the cvs section in the participation guide on fedora.redhat.com * every tree should have one single person who is accountable yes, no rm -rf * tcf: If no one objects, I'll take that piece on too G2: that's fine, just don't commit that change :) Shouldn't accountability devolve onto the editor or the SME, or someone else? megacoder: good question, I'm split on that. I'd rather the writer I see the editor as more than a wordsmith reviewer. Sorry, P-of-O was: who right now has the ability to make a folder and add a new person to the acl? Is there more to the process? i.e. Follow the CvsAccess instructions megacoder: I think there are two levels of editor there is "an editor" for a guide, who is a contributor to the doc, and could be the accountable one and there is "the Editor" who can muck about wherever s/he pleases to make stuff right for a release, etc. Isn't the second type us ? quaid: Don't forget there is also a technical reviewer in there possibly this is a concept that is probably not analogous to software development silly question, but what is the name of our CVS module? elliss: yes, basically Who is to do the content management? tcf: I think it's just set the CVSROOT to /cvs/docs quaid: you seem to be implying more than one person per doc... megacoder: unclear, that is a role that needs to be defined and filled. elliss: just preparing for it, that's all OK quaid: y not give the latter editor a different name, for clarity: e.g. editorial director, manager, ... sure Perhaps say maintainer publisher ? or is that the Web person? anything that does the job... "producer" quaid: ah, fedora-docs, just like before tcf: yeah, we probably want to move all that up one level, perhaps ... or not ... open for discussion. elliss: as you said, FDSCo are all empowered to be the Producer, but we probably want to split up the roles a bit to make it easier for everyone. quaid: right, I have some thoughts on that, but I don't want to get off-topic elliss: we would all be able to do the role in terms of permissions, and can in an urgent situation. Hmm. I think I'm confused tcf: can you send them to the list? I'm very interested in discussing this. quaid: sure, np We have x "contributors" to a doc 1 editor per doc then ? elliss: sorry, I was referring to your asking if the overall producer == FDSCo there could be a technical and a wordsmith editor who are not the same I'm a bit confused too? why do we have 2 editors? ah, ok the question is that really realistic in an ideal world, that is great again, there isn't a requirement they be separate in reality, we might not have enough people for that right now Writer [+ Technical Reviewer] <--> Editor --> DocManager tcf: yes tcf: Am I on target? stickster: that's what I was thinking Editor <--> DocManager? Sorry about introducing a new term... I think "DocManager" sounds better than "producer," which seems to indicate more production Perhaps have 1 overall DocBook lawyer/tech lead ? How much of a doc change is needed to kick this method in? megacoder: Sure, that could be a feedback cycle I'm not sure that the "-->" stuff represents. where the editor edits for grammar, organization, etc. and the docmanager edits to make sure it complies to cvs and build standards and posts the document yes to what tcf just said tcf: GNOME-docs may do this with the caveat that the editor is a role filled by multiple people, right? elliss: Does that create a problem in that as tech lead that person may need to know too much ? I think Extras is done like this and the docmanager is a role filled by FDSCo people. quaid: editor should probably be [Editor [Editor...]] At least for now. quaid: re: DocManager, right we are discussing two topics that are not exclusive, but I think we can close up on one of them. yes stickster: do you have enough to write up a prelim. FDP CVS guidelines? quaid: I believe so. Does anyone have a problem with me going right to the Wiki and inviting comment from there? not I Go for it Fer sure no, e-mail the list too. Right, I'll email when there's something there worth reading. we should feel free to draft work via the Wiki, and it's definitely a better idea to discuss it on list where it's archived. How many do we have on the docs list? agreed us plus a few more, gregdek, Sopwith, Rahul ... 500+ quaid: Exactly what I was thinking... spooooky elliss: on the e-mail list? Whoa. Yes oh, that list? We're talking f-docs-l and not f-dsco-l, right? * stickster is glad he's not dyslexic elliss: let;s get them to write something. Lazy, lazy... G2: It was on Fedora Update. I nearly fell off my chair... I know. Why are we struggling then? That's a serious question I think no one has got the hint that *we will help with DocBook*! just motivation, people like to go where there is a wake +1 yes, that's true What was the latest on Docbook wiki? quaid: The One True CVS opening, I think, will be a big boost felt over the next 3-6 mos plus, we just now have CVS access Perception, too, I think I think that will help a lot! Emacs = hard and all that What about DaveP, he write alot. He's been quiet Well, I don't have CVS access yet... at the beginning, we had lots of volunteers, but once we said no CVS right now, people didn't send any content G2: don't you remember when he quit the list? quaid: nope. Is DaveP still lurking? I thought he got upset at some point, but I can't remember exactly what about G2: I'll dig up the thread for you later ... k I told him we would only use a free toolchain quaid: Ah, right I know it look bad, but what abou POD? Are we still on the agenda here? quaid: are Could there be a public CVS arena that folks can use just to compose their work and then toss it over the fence to the FDSCO repository? ah Would that help with the public participation perception? maybe megacoder: That's why I hoped for a wiki the wiki with cvs would rock megacoder: We are trying to discourage "toss it over the fence," though... participation means more than that imho Yes, but CVS access seems to be a bit of a Grail. yes, people have to "care" what they write about Maybe the Wiki improves that by allowing people to saunter by and improve stuff Hmm... badly composed sentence, sorry There ought to be training facilities of some kind... We have a very steep learning curve for the current toolchain elliss: I'm not sure I agree... I was Emacs *and* DocBook ignorant before I got here Sure, it's perceeption The learning curve should be moot after a few real small docs get published there. Composing docbook by example isn't that complicated. elliss: But, the Documentation Guide can be revisited now... tcf has probably not had scads of time to work on it, but there are more willing and able bodies now I know you will hate this, but what about people that use Fedora at home, what to write, but use Windows at work, and find time to write at work? What do they use? I meant, more in number, not "more willing" But reading that darned spec can be intimidation for the casual helper. megacoder: +1 G2: ... write in docbook or plain text? ? Plain-text would help a lot quaid: true. Emacs is probably the worst perceived hurdle I asked about POD. That's not hard at all. There are tools to turn to xml etc. we had lots of discussion early on about getting the toolchain to work under Windows elliss: No one has ever turned down plain-text as far as I know... we've had many people volunteer to tag into DB/XML G2: what is POD? stickster: The Doc Guide implies Emacs is best I noticed one experienced documenter walk because of that PLease let's don't go there. elliss: Sure, because it is! :-) But seriously, we should add a section in the Docs Guide to make it clear people can participate without that I think we're finding areas of improvement for the Documentation Guide, not failings on the broader scope of how to run the FDP http://search.cpan.org/~nandu/Pod-DocBook-1.2/lib/Pod/DocBook.pm stickster: good point, we added a section on using vi, but making a huge note that it is not required to start participating is a good idea Let's try and hash that out on the f-DOCS-l (as opposed to f-dsco-l agreed OK. there is one CVS question open, just want to be sure that stickster feels he has enough to work with. * process of becoming a committer Can you repost? the question, that is Right do we want there to be _any_ barrier of entry? other than coming to the party prepared. As few as possible IMHO I think we should open the doors as much as we can, and only close them back down if we have problems because of that. BUT I think it only starts with acl'ing a brand-new contributor into an area for their own doc, only enough to make sure they're comfortable, then we open up Are there Wiki committers and CVS committers? we have to be diligent, or we'll end up with lots of dead trees, etc. quaid: Exactly We do need to mentor new people as best we can IMHO megacoder: wiki is a bigger commit pool The first qualifier is -- write to the list, explain your idea process docs note: we need to include mentoring new people somehow. OK, the process I am seeing is to Wiki up a document and then get the CVS folk to commit it? Second qualifier is -- write a draft, submit to an editor (*mentoring here, as well as Step 1!*) Yes, they need to have a doc first heh, ok Third is, after next draft you've proved you do want to *work* on it, so you get a CVS folder Suggestion: perhaps draft explicitly can be plain-text ? stickster: prove? how? Ah, you get a CVS tree the old fashoined way..you _earn_ it. let's take this discussion to the list, in commentary to stickster's prelim draft? ok OK. G2: You've done steps 1-3, that's all... you've shown you want to write, you've got an editor, you're almost to publication in fact moving on to active tasks ... K k this is a hard thing to do here, I think, but ... howa bout this does anyone feel qualified/interested/crazy enough to take a first stab at a master task list, prioritized? One clarification: Will this include specific docs, or are we just discussing project structure that's open for discussion 1. Active documents, 2. Gather list of authors interested in writing. 3..... I think we should include planning upgrades to the Documentation Guide in there, unless covered by #1 4. Suggested topics. it should derive from our project scope, so it would include a road map of documentation One quick request - please edit the wiki page for the extras task list to add a link to the docs task list, and vice versa. Maybe even maybe make an overall "Fedora Project Directory of Task Lists" page :) noted! Good idea +1. How does this relate to BZ tracking bug ? What should be first? That's a place to start to get the answer to #1, fer sure elliss: I guess you make a link to the BZ tracking bug as well, then Sopwith: don't mind It's just the existing process elliss: that could be an easy way to include all the docs we are working on. How far are we with topics? I had a list but I think some docs are more core, such as the IG, and need to be on our roadmap. We are covering #3 of 4 G2: you meant on the agenda for today, right? maybe some core docs, references to groups "security", "file servers", etc. and links to the appropriate bz. yeah. I posted a short list of stuff following from the IG But it comes down to what people want to write... how about this, then, for master tasks: you guys are doing great - I apologize for having to leave <-- Sopwith has quit ("Leaving") I'll draft up a first pass at the master tasks, trying to balance these ideas of what should be there and we can add/tweak on-list OK K * stickster seconds sounds like my kind of deliverable, anyway :) Manage baby, manage! we actually touched on much of agenda item 4 already. 4. Status checks we might want: * Process doc(s) - FDSCo processes (Mark) - FDP processes (i.e., what is embodied in Quick Start) (Karsten) - How to assign writers and editors (unassigned) 4b - includes Doc Guide too I think mrj: I know you are working on it, so for here, do you have any questions/requests of us in terms of the FDSCo process doc? Or at least, when it is amended to reduce entry barriers quaid: no questions yet. i'll post a draft & follow the comments... sound reasonable? stickster: can you ask on f-docs-l for comments on what needs to be fixed in the doc guide? other usability comments? make them file bugs, of course ... mrj: sounds fine, thx * stickster agrees and will take care of that ok, I'm due to update our own processes a bit. This hinged on my CVS working, which today it seems to be. I am doing a quick update of the f.r.c/projects/docs/ page and will also review the QSG for updates. fwiw, we have some usability scripts we could run on the docs guide. generates simple metrics... standard stuff Like rating the readability and such? yep, exactly That sounds cool sweet! i can post to our list If any of that is releaseable, it would be great to see it in CVS yeah, it's all gpl'd under fedora-docs/scripts/ for example more than any other doc, that one needs to be i18nable mrj: do you have your CVS stuff done? you could just check it in The QSG? what are the scripts for again? quick start guide that's the one that is supposed to NOT scare people. quaid: what cvs stuff? Sorry, I meant, "is the QSG what should be most i18n-able?" G2: readability on the Doc Guide stickster: no the Doc Guide quaid: ok, thanks mrj: cvs.fedora.redhat.com i meet with the i18n people later this month, we should generate some questions for them G2: Another good thing is that, if these scripts end up in CVS, editors can use them to check their revisions to make sure they're actually *helping* the doc! :-) i18n people = red hat translation grou[ Cool. s/[/p mrj: I finaly (I think) replied about some stuff to them I need to head off. yep we're tied up done basically * quaid looks at agenda quaid; yeah, saw the messages. been doing some private messages... ah ... 60 min = a good, productive meeting! Nice work everyone! ... Over and out anyone want to maintain the editors:writers list? via wiki perhaps ... good meeting everyone ... * quaid will carry the remaining questions to the list quaid: I nominate one of our Brit bunch ... ok ... I'll post the notes to the list * G2 is away: Off to learn Ha, G2 is bailing, that means stick elliss with the writers:editors list I was going to ... Good man! ... elliss: really? sweet ... Has to be done... Shouldn't be too bad if we keep all parts of the Wiki basically updated... do it as you go == easy Weekly FDSCo meetings will help keep it on track quaid: if you set the page the way you want it We ROCK!!! heh I can fill in without breaking anything :) ... ok Cheers ! Who's writing up the list of master tasks again? cheers me If it fits there, can you put a WikiWord up for the DocumentationGuide, and we'll put a TODO list of improvements in there for people to comment on ## 30 ## -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 19 22:06:29 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:06:29 -0700 Subject: minutes for 19-Apr-2005 meeting In-Reply-To: <1113948071.5360.71.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113948071.5360.71.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1113948389.5360.79.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 15:01 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Ideally, just the is what mattered, but I am taking > editors license to include a bit of the out-of-band conversation that > cleared up a few items: One role we need to fill for a while or for each meeting is an administrative person to file the minutes, and take meta minutes for posting. This is the real one to reply to with fixes/changes/clarifications. Meta Minutes for 19-Apr-2005 * Charter accepted with minor changes * Recognized as being ultimately not a process doc * Decided to keep barriers to CVS minimal, keep the guidelines simple. Paul is writing up a preliminary doc covering how FDP CVS works: how-to use it, how to work with others. Minimalist approach. Only editor(s) and writer(s) should be mucking about in directories. * Paul is writing up the prelim to this. * Created idea of Doc Manager, who reviews docs for final edit, toolchain accuracy, CVS details, and publishes the cotnent to f.r.c/docs * Discussed perception v. reality of using FDP tools. * Paul is going to lead the effort to update the Doc Guide. * New Wiki page to track comments * Karsten is taking the first draft of the master task list. This will include a roadmap-of-sorts of a few core docs, and other infrastructure stuff. * Mark working on FDSCo process doc * Karsten is working on updating the QSG * Mark will check-in some usability/readability scripts * Stuart will maintain the editor:writer assignment page, Karsten will create the template. ## 30 ## - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 20 08:20:42 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:20:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Man page format to Docbook XML for New Authors Message-ID: <55542.193.195.148.66.1113985242.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Dear Guys, I recently, with the help of Stefan, tagged up the whole of: http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda.html To give: http://www.amanda.org/docs/using.html However, to get the manpages into docbook: http://www.amanda.org/docs/AMANDA-manpages.html We used Eric Raymonds Doclifter, which as you can see by the above results it's very good: http://www.catb.org/~esr/doclifter/ Man page format is easy to write. Thoughts? -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 20 08:22:47 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:22:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: minutes for 19-Apr-2005 meeting In-Reply-To: <1113948389.5360.79.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1113948071.5360.71.camel@erato.phig.org> <1113948389.5360.79.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <55636.193.195.148.66.1113985367.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 15:01 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: >> Ideally, just the is what mattered, but I am taking >> editors license to include a bit of the out-of-band conversation that >> cleared up a few items: > > One role we need to fill for a while or for each meeting is an > administrative person to file the minutes, and take meta minutes for > posting. > > This is the real one to reply to with fixes/changes/clarifications. > > Meta Minutes for 19-Apr-2005 > > * Charter accepted with minor changes > > * Recognized as being ultimately not a process doc > > * Decided to keep barriers to CVS minimal, keep the guidelines > simple. Paul is writing up a preliminary doc covering how FDP CVS > works: how-to use it, how to work with others. Minimalist > approach. Only editor(s) and writer(s) should be mucking about in > directories. > > * Paul is writing up the prelim to this. > > * Created idea of Doc Manager, who reviews docs for final edit, > toolchain accuracy, CVS details, and publishes the cotnent to > f.r.c/docs > > * Discussed perception v. reality of using FDP tools. > > * Paul is going to lead the effort to update the Doc Guide. > > * New Wiki page to track comments > > * Karsten is taking the first draft of the master task list. This > will include a roadmap-of-sorts of a few core docs, and other > infrastructure stuff. > > * Mark working on FDSCo process doc > > * Karsten is working on updating the QSG > > * Mark will check-in some usability/readability scripts > > * Stuart will maintain the editor:writer assignment page, Karsten will > create the template. > > ## 30 ## Anything I can take on? I forgot to volunteer ;-) > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list > From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 20 17:45:09 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:45:09 +0100 Subject: Fwd: FYI: Choosing an XML Editor Message-ID: <200504201845.10649.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: FYI: Choosing an XML Editor Date: Wednesday 20 Apr 2005 17:25 From: Saqib Ali To: "discuss at en.tldp.org" , docbook at en.tldp.org A review of XML editors has just been published by the Arts and Humanities Data Service. Please see http://www.xml-dev.com/blog/index.php#121 for info ______________________ http://lists.tldp.org/ ------------------------------------------------------- -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 20 19:29:02 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:29:02 -0700 Subject: scheduling, or the timezone dance Message-ID: <1114025342.5360.107.camel@erato.phig.org> Apparently, those of us in the States have software that doesn't calculate British Summer Time correctly. Or does it? From rom what I got out of yesterday's conversation, I am in fact -8 UTC/GMT, and not -7 UTC/GMT as rktime shows me[1]. Uh ... but http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx agrees with rktime. Can one of the UKers explain to me wtf is going on? - Karsten [1] I love rktime, first time it's failed me. http://people.redhat.com/rkeech/#rktime [kwade at erato kwade]$ rktime 2005-04-20 12:22 Wed US/Pacific <- 2005-04-20 15:22 Wed US/Eastern 2005-04-20 19:22 Wed UTC 2005-04-20 20:22 Wed Europe/London 2005-04-20 21:22 Wed Europe/Paris 2005-04-20 21:22 Wed Europe/Berlin ------------------new day---------------------- 2005-04-21 03:22 Thu Asia/Singapore 2005-04-21 03:22 Thu Asia/Hong_Kong 2005-04-21 04:22 Thu Asia/Tokyo 2005-04-21 05:22 Thu Australia/Brisbane 2005-04-21 05:22 Thu Australia/Sydney 2005-04-21 07:22 Thu Pacific/Auckland -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Wed Apr 20 19:53:05 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:53:05 +0100 Subject: scheduling, or the timezone dance In-Reply-To: <1114025342.5360.107.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114025342.5360.107.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114026785.28748.232346202@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:29:02 -0700, "Karsten Wade" said: > Apparently, those of us in the States have software that doesn't > calculate British Summer Time correctly. Or does it? > > From rom what I got out of yesterday's conversation, I am in fact -8 > UTC/GMT, and not -7 UTC/GMT as rktime shows me[1]. > UTC/GMT is a constant reference for all timezones, but UK time at UTC + 1 hour for the "British Summer Time" period of the year, despite the fact that the Greenwich meridian is in Britain. So: http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_GB.aspx We only do it to mess everybody else up :) -- Stuart Ellis From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 20:23:25 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:23:25 -0400 Subject: scheduling, or the timezone dance In-Reply-To: <1114026785.28748.232346202@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1114025342.5360.107.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114026785.28748.232346202@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1114028605.4743.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 20:53 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:29:02 -0700, "Karsten Wade" > said: > > Apparently, those of us in the States have software that doesn't > > calculate British Summer Time correctly. Or does it? > > > > From rom what I got out of yesterday's conversation, I am in fact -8 > > UTC/GMT, and not -7 UTC/GMT as rktime shows me[1]. > > > > UTC/GMT is a constant reference for all timezones, but UK time at UTC + > 1 hour for the "British Summer Time" period of the year, despite the > fact that the Greenwich meridian is in Britain. > > So: > > http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_GB.aspx > > We only do it to mess everybody else up :) I just remember that they're pretty much always 5 hours ahead of Eastern time, regardless of daylight savings. IIRC, the clocks in Britain change at roughly the same time of year. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 20:25:33 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:25:33 -0400 Subject: Fwd: FYI: Choosing an XML Editor In-Reply-To: <200504201845.10649.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> References: <200504201845.10649.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1114028734.4743.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 18:45 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > > Subject: FYI: Choosing an XML Editor > Date: Wednesday 20 Apr 2005 17:25 > From: Saqib Ali > To: "discuss at en.tldp.org" , docbook at en.tldp.org > > A review of XML editors has just been published by the Arts and > Humanities Data Service. > Please see http://www.xml-dev.com/blog/index.php#121 for info Excellent resource, and thanks for the link. Let's keep this discussion on fedora-docs-list where it belongs. The f-dsco-l is for Steering Committee business, while this is of more interest to the entire FDP community. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 20 22:29:11 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:29:11 -0700 Subject: scheduling, or the timezone dance In-Reply-To: <1114026785.28748.232346202@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1114025342.5360.107.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114026785.28748.232346202@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1114036152.6234.1.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 20:53 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:29:02 -0700, "Karsten Wade" > said: > > Apparently, those of us in the States have software that doesn't > > calculate British Summer Time correctly. Or does it? > > > > From rom what I got out of yesterday's conversation, I am in fact -8 > > UTC/GMT, and not -7 UTC/GMT as rktime shows me[1]. > > > > UTC/GMT is a constant reference for all timezones, but UK time at UTC + > 1 hour for the "British Summer Time" period of the year, despite the > fact that the Greenwich meridian is in Britain. So, the original time chart _was_ correct? 2000 GMT / 2100 BST / 1600 EDT / 1500 CDT / 1300 PDT. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Thu Apr 21 16:34:15 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:34:15 +0100 Subject: scheduling, or the timezone dance In-Reply-To: <1114036152.6234.1.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114025342.5360.107.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114026785.28748.232346202@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1114036152.6234.1.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114101255.14674.232420973@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:29:11 -0700, "Karsten Wade" said: > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 20:53 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:29:02 -0700, "Karsten Wade" > > said: > > > Apparently, those of us in the States have software that doesn't > > > calculate British Summer Time correctly. Or does it? > > > > > > From rom what I got out of yesterday's conversation, I am in fact -8 > > > UTC/GMT, and not -7 UTC/GMT as rktime shows me[1]. > > > > > > > UTC/GMT is a constant reference for all timezones, but UK time at UTC + > > 1 hour for the "British Summer Time" period of the year, despite the > > fact that the Greenwich meridian is in Britain. > > So, the original time chart _was_ correct? > > 2000 GMT / 2100 BST / 1600 EDT / 1500 CDT / 1300 PDT. I think so (I've looked at http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/ to check up on the US timezones, which I was a bit hazy on). -- Stuart Ellis From mjohnson at redhat.com Thu Apr 21 20:59:00 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:59:00 -0400 Subject: usability/readability scripts Message-ID: <42681414.4020904@redhat.com> Hi All, Just wanted to let you know that tomorrow I'll be testing/documenting the usability scripts I mentioned in Tueday's FDSC meeting. I'd rather do it this way, than simply send a tarball, cuz it's important to understand what's being measured, how it's defined, etc. Also, there will surely be some issues related to running the scripts against the docs: we'll likely need convert the xml to txt (say, via docbook2txt) before running the scripts. I'd be quite surprised if the scripts are xml-aware. Will report back tumorruh... Cheers, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 22 18:39:17 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:39:17 -0700 Subject: Admin question In-Reply-To: <1114170943.4509.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114170943.4509.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114195157.6234.127.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 07:55 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Karsten, > > I received mail from the Fedora accounts system asking me to approve > someone for CVS access -- strangely enough, the surak guy you asked me > about. Yeah, we all got those, new feature Elliott put in yesterday. I don't yet know the entire meaning of that part of the admin tools. Let's hold off on approving any new people until we have guidelines to point them at. Can't go spanking anyone's hands for reaching in the wrong cookie jar until we've posted the Cookie Jar Rules. > This seems like a policy question that belongs on the CVS wiki > page, but for which I don't have an answer. Do we give out CVS access > to anyone asking for it? Does CVS access automatically mean write > access across the board to the entire store of fedora-docs? If the > answer to both of those is "yes," are we comfortable with that approach? > This plays into the idea of sandboxes and how high we want the wood > beams around them. I'll try and get on IRC by morning your time, but > feel free to just email if that's more convenient. We definitely want some sort of guidelines in place before we give out CVS access beyond this immediate group. I've already been pushing this; I asked Rahul yesterday if he wanted to document the admin tool, and he could get the CVS access sooner that way. Before I give out CVS access, I personally would want to know: 1. Who are you? 2. What are your plans in CVS? 3. What have you done lately that deserves access? Our challenge is to lower barriers while setting up appropriate obstructions. What is appropriate to keep in docscvs? Do we use ACLs everywhere or just trust people to stick only where they belong? I think the answer to 1. is that they should have done a self introduction and participated on the mailing list, maybe even discussed their specific doc idea(s). This feeds into 2. Someone needs to be a writer or an editor to have a reason for docscvs access. And 3. is rather self-evident. But is it elitist? I think it certainly speaks to the idea of meritocracy. I won't worry too much yet if it is elitist. What I really want is a bunch of enthusiastic people humming through CVS like honey bees, making sweet documentation. Okay, 'nuff for now - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Fri Apr 22 18:57:11 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:57:11 -0400 Subject: Admin question In-Reply-To: <1114195157.6234.127.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114170943.4509.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114195157.6234.127.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <42694907.9080104@redhat.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 07:55 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >>Karsten, >> >>I received mail from the Fedora accounts system asking me to approve >>someone for CVS access -- strangely enough, the surak guy you asked me >>about. > > > Yeah, we all got those, new feature Elliott put in yesterday. I don't > yet know the entire meaning of that part of the admin tools. > > Let's hold off on approving any new people until we have guidelines to > point them at. Can't go spanking anyone's hands for reaching in the > wrong cookie jar until we've posted the Cookie Jar Rules. Is this the sort of content that would be appropriate for the process doc? (* mrj reads rest of message...) Better yet, is the above question (who approves CVS access) plus the issues below (who qualifies for CVS access) the kind of stuff I should put in the process doc draft? Too specific? Or a smartly-documented decision procedure? Feedback, pleeze... Thanks, Mark > > >> This seems like a policy question that belongs on the CVS wiki >>page, but for which I don't have an answer. Do we give out CVS access >>to anyone asking for it? Does CVS access automatically mean write >>access across the board to the entire store of fedora-docs? If the >>answer to both of those is "yes," are we comfortable with that approach? >>This plays into the idea of sandboxes and how high we want the wood >>beams around them. I'll try and get on IRC by morning your time, but >>feel free to just email if that's more convenient. > > > We definitely want some sort of guidelines in place before we give out > CVS access beyond this immediate group. I've already been pushing this; > I asked Rahul yesterday if he wanted to document the admin tool, and he > could get the CVS access sooner that way. > > Before I give out CVS access, I personally would want to know: > > 1. Who are you? > 2. What are your plans in CVS? > 3. What have you done lately that deserves access? > > Our challenge is to lower barriers while setting up appropriate > obstructions. What is appropriate to keep in docscvs? Do we use ACLs > everywhere or just trust people to stick only where they belong? > > I think the answer to 1. is that they should have done a self > introduction and participated on the mailing list, maybe even discussed > their specific doc idea(s). > > This feeds into 2. Someone needs to be a writer or an editor to have a > reason for docscvs access. > > And 3. is rather self-evident. But is it elitist? I think it certainly > speaks to the idea of meritocracy. I won't worry too much yet if it is > elitist. > > What I really want is a bunch of enthusiastic people humming through CVS > like honey bees, making sweet documentation. > > Okay, 'nuff for now - Karsten > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 22 21:21:56 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:21:56 -0700 Subject: Admin question In-Reply-To: <42694907.9080104@redhat.com> References: <1114170943.4509.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114195157.6234.127.camel@erato.phig.org> <42694907.9080104@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1114204916.6234.144.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 14:57 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: > Better yet, is the above question (who approves CVS access) plus the issues > below (who qualifies for CVS access) the kind of stuff I should put in the > process doc draft? > > Too specific? Or a smartly-documented decision procedure? There are two separate sets of process documents happening, aiui. You are working on the process doc for the committee. All of the other process documentation is for the project itself, and should be in the Doc Guide. These could all be in the Doc Guide, but I think that changes the Doc Guide scope too much. Right now it's a safe-n-sane, "Document how to participate in the FDP." Does this make sense? So, Paul took on the CVS access docs on Tuesday and has been working on them via the Wiki, but we probably want to put them in the Doc Guide and make that canonical. However, if our CVS decision process includes some kind of action or reaction on the part of the FDSCo, then we should have at least that part documented in the process docs. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Fri Apr 22 22:30:49 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:30:49 -0400 Subject: Admin question In-Reply-To: <1114204916.6234.144.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114170943.4509.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114195157.6234.127.camel@erato.phig.org> <42694907.9080104@redhat.com> <1114204916.6234.144.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <42697B19.2050301@redhat.com> OK - thanks quaid. I think I now have a grasp of what's appropriate for the FDSC process docs. I'll try to get something together 'real soon'. And the usability stuff has been punted to early next week. Oops. Have a weekend! Mark Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 14:57 -0400, Mark Johnson wrote: > > >>Better yet, is the above question (who approves CVS access) plus the issues >>below (who qualifies for CVS access) the kind of stuff I should put in the >>process doc draft? >> >>Too specific? Or a smartly-documented decision procedure? > > > There are two separate sets of process documents happening, aiui. > > You are working on the process doc for the committee. > > All of the other process documentation is for the project itself, and > should be in the Doc Guide. > > These could all be in the Doc Guide, but I think that changes the Doc > Guide scope too much. Right now it's a safe-n-sane, "Document how to > participate in the FDP." > > Does this make sense? > > So, Paul took on the CVS access docs on Tuesday and has been working on > them via the Wiki, but we probably want to put them in the Doc Guide and > make that canonical. > > However, if our CVS decision process includes some kind of action or > reaction on the part of the FDSCo, then we should have at least that > part documented in the process docs. > > - Karsten > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 12:26:09 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:26:09 -0400 Subject: FDP Logo Message-ID: <1114259169.4965.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Howdy fellow Disco Ducks, Since anything of this nature would likely be a FDSCo decision, this seems like the right list. Yesterday on IRC I brought up the idea of a logo for FDP. This logo would serve to brand our documentation, as part of an HTML or PDF rendering of our files for online or print use. It would also be great to have one ready for a menu entry for an RPM package that we would one day ship in Extras for our documentation. Tommy Reynolds miraculously googled up a fedora hat that is license- unencumbered. The artist has it in the public domain, meaning we can make a derivative work and GPL it. I don't think the idea of "any picture of a red fedora" should be a problem. For instance, the Bluecurve main menu icon (a little red fedora) is GPL. I can derive stuff from that work, but I can't call it "Bluecurve." Anyway, I played with it just a bit and got the "newsie" feel I was looking for. I am not quite happy with the text, for no other reason than it's not well-aligned with the curvature of the slip of paper in the hatband. I knew *zero* about SVG before yestreday afternoon but I am in love with it already, so if anyone out there can help me with this issue in Sodipodi, I'd appreciate it. Feel free to mail me off-list. But it does satisfy some basic requirements for a nice logo: * It's scalable, and useful at even very small sizes (thanks, SVG!) * It's uncomplicated. * It's iconic. * It's "branded" with "FDP." Most importantly, once the text on it is fixed to curve nicely, it will look great on t-shirts, mugs, wall clocks, your bicep, your kids' lunchboxes, the banners flying over the... oops, sorry, got ahead of myself there. Anyway, check it out: http://paul.frields.org/images/red_fedora_fdp.png http://paul.frields.org/images/red_fedora_fdp.svg Hope you enjoy it, comments appreciated. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Sat Apr 23 13:47:36 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:47:36 +0100 Subject: FDP Logo In-Reply-To: <1114259169.4965.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114259169.4965.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504231447.36945.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> > http://paul.frields.org/images/red_fedora_fdp.png > http://paul.frields.org/images/red_fedora_fdp.svg > > Hope you enjoy it, comments appreciated. I really like it. P.S. I will catch up with yesterdays conversation on the docs list, and add my thoughts. Looks like a long debate went on. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sat Apr 23 14:00:41 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:00:41 +0100 Subject: FDP Logo In-Reply-To: <1114259169.4965.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114259169.4965.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114264841.27670.232551411@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:26:09 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" said: > Howdy fellow Disco Ducks, > > Since anything of this nature would likely be a FDSCo decision, this > seems like the right list. > Yesterday on IRC I brought up the idea of a logo for FDP. I think that this is a really good idea. IMO this ought to be developed on the marketing-list though, because branding issues are bigger than this sub-project - it may be that all of the subprojects/deliverables (Core, Extras, Docs and Legacy) ought to have matching nifty logos. > It would also be great to have one ready for a menu entry for an RPM package that we would one > day ship in Extras for our documentation. We've discussed desktop integration briefly on the main list (thread on desktop search engines a couple of months ago), but don't have a concrete plan of attack AFAIK. I've added this to the Tasks list. -- Stuart Ellis From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sat Apr 23 15:33:36 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:33:36 -0500 Subject: FDP Logo In-Reply-To: <1114259169.4965.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114259169.4965.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050423103336.38700528.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > Tommy Reynolds miraculously googled up a fedora hat that is license- > unencumbered. The artist has it in the public domain, meaning we can > make a derivative work and GPL it. I don't think the idea of "any > picture of a red fedora" should be a problem. For instance, the > Bluecurve main menu icon (a little red fedora) is GPL. I can derive > stuff from that work, but I can't call it "Bluecurve." Paul, I don't know if you've seen my attempts at: http://www.megacoder.com/fdsc/logo.png http://www.megacoder.com/fdsc/logo.svg If you really think the text/card should be warped around the hatband, that is not hard directly in SVG. Dunno about sodipodi though; it's another stupid GUI (IASG). Hey, I just made that up! Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 21:41:14 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:41:14 -0400 Subject: CVS usage guidelines Message-ID: <1114292474.6762.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> I have a rough draft of CVS guidelines on the wiki. http://fedoralegacy.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage This is definitely a work in progress, and I would welcome comments and suggestions. Think of this like a development project -- comments and suggestions that include actual written material will get more attention! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Sat Apr 23 22:05:42 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:05:42 +0100 Subject: CVS usage guidelines In-Reply-To: <1114292474.6762.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114292474.6762.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504232305.42876.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Saturday 23 Apr 2005 22:41, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I have a rough draft of CVS guidelines on the wiki. > > http://fedoralegacy.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage I think you mean: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage ;-) > > This is definitely a work in progress, and I would welcome comments and > suggestions. Think of this like a development project -- comments and > suggestions that include actual written material will get more > attention! -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 23:54:14 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:54:14 -0400 Subject: CVS usage guidelines In-Reply-To: <200504232305.42876.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> References: <1114292474.6762.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504232305.42876.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1114300455.8664.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 23:05 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > On Saturday 23 Apr 2005 22:41, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > I have a rough draft of CVS guidelines on the wiki. > > > > http://fedoralegacy.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage > > I think you mean: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage > > ;-) Aw, $#!(%. It's been that kind of a day. Thanks Gavin. Now to fire that typist.... -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sun Apr 24 10:32:03 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 03:32:03 -0700 Subject: FDP Logo In-Reply-To: <1114264841.27670.232551411@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1114259169.4965.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114264841.27670.232551411@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1114338723.6234.166.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 15:00 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:26:09 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" > said: > > Howdy fellow Disco Ducks, > > > > Since anything of this nature would likely be a FDSCo decision, this > > seems like the right list. > > > Yesterday on IRC I brought up the idea of a logo for FDP. > > I think that this is a really good idea. IMO this ought to be developed > on the marketing-list though, because branding issues are bigger than > this sub-project - it may be that all of the subprojects/deliverables > (Core, Extras, Docs and Legacy) ought to have matching nifty logos. Yeah, fedora-marketing-list seems like the right place to discuss this. I'm in favor of us having a cool fedora logo, and we want to fit into the overall Fedora Project vision on this. I just joined the list, should be a fun discussion. A quick search via google doesn't show any previous discussions about "logo". :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Apr 24 13:28:16 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:28:16 +0100 Subject: CVS usage guidelines In-Reply-To: <1114292474.6762.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114292474.6762.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114349296.8090.55.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 17:41 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I have a rough draft of CVS guidelines on the wiki. > > http://fedoralegacy.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage > > This is definitely a work in progress, and I would welcome comments and > suggestions. As Karsten said during the meeting, there may be a risk of having dead modules in CVS if we do create too freely. Having thought about it some more, perhaps production of a draft (in plain-text or DocBook) ought to be a qualification for CVS entry. If somebody stumps up an actual piece of text then they've probably got the stick-at-it-ness to learn any technical skills they don't already have, and see the work through. Somebody without a real interest may disqualify themselves by simply not producing a draft, even when we don't impose any other barriers to entry. After looking at the tracker bugs I now feel that we might even be better off not giving bugzilla entries to proposals without an actual draft document, to keep our development systems from becoming cluttered with (more) inactive proposals (see separate mail to the list on tracking documents - thread on "Random Topics Question"). From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Apr 24 14:37:01 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:37:01 -0500 Subject: CVS usage guidelines In-Reply-To: <1114349296.8090.55.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <1114292474.6762.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114349296.8090.55.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <20050424093701.44461b54.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Stuart Ellis , spake thus: > If somebody stumps up an actual piece > of text then they've probably got the stick-at-it-ness to learn any > technical skills they don't already have, and see the work through. > Somebody without a real interest may disqualify themselves by simply not > producing a draft, even when we don't impose any other barriers to > entry. (I think the word you're looking for is "tenacity" ;-) This seems eminently reasonable to me. Isn't every writer also working on a screen play? If folk with coordinate their interest ("I wanna write a document about FOO") and then provide a draft document that is *peer reviewed* on the list, then if an editor is willing to clean up the text, only then should CVS be activated. This doesn't seem to be setting the bar too high. Actually participating in the activity should be the entry qualification more than good intentions. Cheers! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Sun Apr 24 15:54:59 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:54:59 +0100 Subject: CVS usage guidelines In-Reply-To: <20050424093701.44461b54.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1114292474.6762.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114349296.8090.55.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <20050424093701.44461b54.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1114358099.8090.75.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Sun, 2005-04-24 at 09:37 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Stuart Ellis , spake thus: > > > If somebody stumps up an actual piece > > of text then they've probably got the stick-at-it-ness to learn any > > technical skills they don't already have, and see the work through. > > Somebody without a real interest may disqualify themselves by simply not > > producing a draft, even when we don't impose any other barriers to > > entry. > > (I think the word you're looking for is "tenacity" ;-) My thesaurus gets Sundays off :) > If folk with coordinate their interest ("I wanna write a document about > FOO") and then provide a draft document that is *peer reviewed* on the > list, then if an editor is willing to clean up the text, only then > should CVS be activated. > > This doesn't seem to be setting the bar too high. Actually participating in the activity should be the entry qualification more than good intentions. I've amended the Process Flow section of the Wiki page to make this proposal more concrete. Doing that I realised that we don't have sections for: a) Removing CVS access (by request of the contributor, or without it). b) Transferring maintainership of documents in CVS. To keep versioning clean I've just edited for the suggestion I gave. From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 16:55:18 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 12:55:18 -0400 Subject: CVS usage guidelines In-Reply-To: <1114358099.8090.75.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <1114292474.6762.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1114349296.8090.55.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <20050424093701.44461b54.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1114358099.8090.75.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <1114361718.4750.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-24 at 16:54 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Sun, 2005-04-24 at 09:37 -0500, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > Uttered Stuart Ellis , spake thus: > > > > > If somebody stumps up an actual piece > > > of text then they've probably got the stick-at-it-ness to learn any > > > technical skills they don't already have, and see the work through. > > > Somebody without a real interest may disqualify themselves by simply not > > > producing a draft, even when we don't impose any other barriers to > > > entry. > > > > (I think the word you're looking for is "tenacity" ;-) > > My thesaurus gets Sundays off :) > > > If folk with coordinate their interest ("I wanna write a document about > > FOO") and then provide a draft document that is *peer reviewed* on the > > list, then if an editor is willing to clean up the text, only then > > should CVS be activated. > > > > This doesn't seem to be setting the bar too high. Actually participating in the activity should be the entry qualification more than good intentions. > > I've amended the Process Flow section of the Wiki page to make this > proposal more concrete. > > Doing that I realised that we don't have sections for: > > a) Removing CVS access (by request of the contributor, or without it). > b) Transferring maintainership of documents in CVS. > > To keep versioning clean I've just edited for the suggestion I gave. I really like what you added, Stuart. I did have two minor clarifications: 1. Keep FDSCo involved in the proposal acceptance process to arbitrate list disagreements. In other words, if there's no list consensus on a doc, the FDSCo should make the call. 2. Initial drafts should be submitted via hyperlink (not email attachment) to the list -- this one's just a very minor clarification. Wiki changes made to support these suggestions. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Mon Apr 25 13:39:58 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:39:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FDP Logo In-Reply-To: <20050423103336.38700528.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <1114259169.4965.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050423103336.38700528.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: OK, before anyone gets too excited, it's my unfortunate duty to step in at this point with some bad news: 1. Branding is one of the areas where Red Hat is most likely to throw its collective weight around. 2. It is the oft-expressed will of Red Hat that the Fedora never adopt an actual *fedora* as a logo for the Fedora project, due to the potential of confusion with the Shadowman logo, into which the company has poured millions of dollars/man-hours. In short: the lovely blue fedora is a non-starter. Am I happy about this state of affairs? No, I'm not. Not even a little bit. But them's the breaks. So this leaves us with an interesting conundrum: How do you represent an elephant without using an elephant? Some ideas that have been passed around: * Using the logo type in a clever way. (Which I hate.) * Making a souped-up "F". (Which I hate only a little less.) * Coming up with a logo that somehow indicates community contribution and/or rapid progress, which yields lots of ideas, some of which are irreconcilably lame: + A piggy bank. (With a big "F"!) + Some sort of hand-grasping United Way-ish logo. + Some abstract thing with arrows or tides or something. Many small arrows becoming one. + Blah blah blah. To recap: no fedora to represent Fedora. *Any* other decent idea welcome. :( --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan Red Hat Summit ] [ New Orleans ] [ Learn. Network. Experience Open Source. June 1/2/3 2005 ] [ (And Make Your Boss Pay For It.) [ http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Paul W. Frields" , spake thus: > > > Tommy Reynolds miraculously googled up a fedora hat that is license- > > unencumbered. The artist has it in the public domain, meaning we can > > make a derivative work and GPL it. I don't think the idea of "any > > picture of a red fedora" should be a problem. For instance, the > > Bluecurve main menu icon (a little red fedora) is GPL. I can derive > > stuff from that work, but I can't call it "Bluecurve." > > Paul, > > I don't know if you've seen my attempts at: > > http://www.megacoder.com/fdsc/logo.png > > http://www.megacoder.com/fdsc/logo.svg > > If you really think the text/card should be warped around the > hatband, that is not hard directly in SVG. Dunno about sodipodi > though; it's another stupid GUI (IASG). Hey, I just made that up! > > Cheers > From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 25 13:59:58 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:59:58 -0700 Subject: FDP Logo In-Reply-To: References: <1114259169.4965.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050423103336.38700528.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1114437598.6234.183.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 09:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > How do you represent an elephant without using an elephant? An empty hat rack? "Fill up this rack with your Fedora." Ok, I retire from this idea for now. I'll keep my eyes open on f- marketing-l, in case we do decide to tackle this. - Karsten, who thinks it is not as funny an idea of Red Hat suing Fedora Project for trademark infringement as it was of Fox News suing itself via The Simpsons ... -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 14:48:05 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:48:05 -0400 Subject: FDP Logo In-Reply-To: References: <1114259169.4965.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050423103336.38700528.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1114440485.4575.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 09:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > OK, before anyone gets too excited, it's my unfortunate duty to step in at > this point with some bad news: > > 1. Branding is one of the areas where Red Hat is most likely to throw its > collective weight around. > > 2. It is the oft-expressed will of Red Hat that the Fedora never adopt an > actual *fedora* as a logo for the Fedora project, due to the potential of > confusion with the Shadowman logo, into which the company has poured > millions of dollars/man-hours. > > In short: the lovely blue fedora is a non-starter. Am I happy about this > state of affairs? No, I'm not. Not even a little bit. But them's the > breaks. > > So this leaves us with an interesting conundrum: > > How do you represent an elephant without using an elephant? > > Some ideas that have been passed around: > * Using the logo type in a clever way. (Which I hate.) > * Making a souped-up "F". (Which I hate only a little less.) > * Coming up with a logo that somehow indicates community contribution > and/or rapid progress, which yields lots of ideas, some of which are > irreconcilably lame: > + A piggy bank. (With a big "F"!) > + Some sort of hand-grasping United Way-ish logo. > + Some abstract thing with arrows or tides or something. Many small > arrows becoming one. > + Blah blah blah. > > To recap: no fedora to represent Fedora. *Any* other decent idea welcome. > > :( OK, good to have the information. I don't think the "souped-up 'F'" idea is too horrible... At least the shape of that letter leaves space in a graphic for a variety of nice ideas. I'll work up something in my copious spare time for fun. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 26 19:49:47 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:49:47 -0700 Subject: agenda for 26-Apr-2005 Message-ID: <1114544987.6234.234.camel@erato.phig.org> 1. CVS status check - How do we like the CVS Access rules? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fCvsUsage - fedora-docs-commits should be live today 2. Master Tasks status 3. Process docs for FDSCo - Assigning writers and editors 4. Process improvements for FDP 5. FDP website 6. Misc/Open -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 26 21:15:45 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:15:45 -0700 Subject: minutes/log 26-Apr-2005 meeting Message-ID: <1114550145.6234.242.camel@erato.phig.org> Call the meeting to order, it's past time. * quaid kicks megacoder in the grumpiness hear ye, hear ye, etc. OK... CVS access rules? * quaid is disorganized yes * stickster has your back, man has everyone had a chance to glance over the CVS access rules? I particularly liked the part about withdrawal without prejudice. Ta. Sounds a bit legal megacoder: Isn't that the charter you're talking about? http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fCvsUsage Naw, look at "Process Flow" about the middle I put it in elliss: Oh yeah, sorry, I remember reading this earlier If anybody can think of a better phrase than "without prejudice" that would be cool seems like a good word to me "without extreme prejudice"? elliss: It's fine megacoder: this is not a CIA workflow :) No, really, it's great as it is. stickster: are you happy with this as a draft for full comments, changes, then acceptance? I think so. Thanks, Stuart, for the additional bits! Keep in mind this creates a need for ACLs on the CVS... is that within our ken? theoretically we can work it out and will learn as we go who else wants to help maintain the CVS administratively? just to divide the work, that is I wouldn't mind, if my name's not in the hat I didn't know if writing the doc implied that why I asked :) for our own purposes, we'll need to capture the process how-to get someone ACLs correctly, etc. *nod Is it within scope to address our pending request(s)? Only 1 that I know of ok, I move to accept the CVSUsage guidelines seconded stickster: I was going to email that fella, but since he's not personally clamoring, I decided to wait a day or so and just send an announcement to the list of the process. quaid: great, my thinking exactly Refresh my memory: how did he get into the list, anyway? All in favor? or the other way aye Not quite any opposed? aye elliss: go ahead megacoder: signed himself up for access :) How do we kick someone off CVS (or let them resign) ? That's what I get for being asleep most of the time. stickster: when you get the chance, you can fix/ammend/remove your comments in the Wiki page. elliss: interesting question elliss: They can remove themselves from the group in the account system Or the administrator can remove them. elliss: are you also thinking of the process? i.e., the rules? Yes. will it help people to know what is an infraction? stickster: OK quaid: OK We don't want to seem arbitrary FWIW Greg and I were talking about a similar policy for extras Do we just remove names from the ACL's but leave the account? or remove the account and clean up the ACLS later? Generally, ACL's aren't really needed at all except to control access to high-risk stuff like the CVSROOT or the web site. about ACLS my thinking was, honor system There's nothing about ACL's in the "cvs usage" page, I believe... that was on purpose tell people not mess around in other locations, rather then force them not to. "Access" was more of a logical construct For us ACLs are really to protect the contributor themselves I would think that de-acling documents would be sort of a hand-slap. When I helped with Gnome CVS, we had no ACLs at all on hundreds of modules with thousands of people. The best way to make sure people do the right thing is to hold them accountable by reading fedora- docs-commits list. hi everyone, sorry I'm late You'd have to beg to get back onto it. got stuck in another meeting tcf: s'alright, we're talking about CVS megacoder: easier to disable their entire account :) Sopwith: Our contributors aren't necessarily developers, so may have no experience at all with CVS If someone is really causing problems, it'll be very apparent to you guys what action to take as it happens. Then an infraction would need to be really bad. Yes, access need not be based on ACLs, since that does create more of an admin burden anyway yep Infraction: something that messes up someone else's work without permission For Extras, the main you-will-lose-your-account infractions are cracking and putting illegal material in CVS elliss: I think they will be more cautious, then, and less likely to mess around other places. OK, OK, that's why we get paid the big bucks to be on the Steering Committee, but is there any legal risk if someone gets P/O'ed? stickster: amend that with, "intentionally" quaid: oh yes, thanks megacoder: No, PR risk is the main worry I believe. megacoder: It's a volunteer project after all how about: I'm don't mean about the content, but if someone gets banned ... no admin ACLs unless critical they could take it ill. I'm most worried about small unrecorded changes, done for good intensions elliss: won't be unrecorded elliss: All changes go to a commits list OK - I know nothing about CVS megacoder: because it's not a public space, there's no guarantee of access for anyone -- just like a business reserves the right to eject you, even though you can then picket them from outside elliss: CVS keeps track of all changes, so if someone goofs up (intentionally or not) it's very easy to go back to the previous version of a file. OK. quaid: I don't think we can implement acls right now anyway It's not so important to come up with enforcement mechanisms and consequences right now, as to make the rules of the road clear to all. When problems come up, you will figure out the best way to deal with the situation. I guess public embarrassment is a good control Well, I'd be happer with a Webbick pronouncement about booting folk. s/ick/ink/ I talked to gdk about cvs access this afternoon, and he said for extras, you get access if you ask and if you do something bad, they revert the changes and that person is banned make it simple is the rule Sopwith: Extras will maybe have a policy on this soonish, right? * quaid has a proposal: * No admin ACLs unless a critical item (i.e., website, CVSROOT) * Social access control * No cracking, no illegal materials (bad breach) * No intentional meaneness (minor breach) * Be careful, ask first (low breach) quaid: Add doc guide to that maybe stickster: ok agreed suits me. ditto stickster: do you want to add those guidelines, clean up your comments, and it's ready for a first itreation? Keep in the part where we get to shoot'em in the back, though. word quaid: yes True dat "You wouldn't shoot an unarmed man in the back, would you?" "I've done worse." He had glasses on ok, as a finish to this item fedora-docs-commits should be ready right after this meeting, I'll fix up the final details with Sopwith go ahead an subscribe, and I'll make an announcement to the list about CVS that covers: general philosophy, link to access rules, link to commits list anything else on this? ok Master Tasks ... small agenda item, this I threw it in case there was a status about it, but it's a work in progress. http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fMasterTasks status about the list, or status on items thereon? about the list k seeing if anyone had anything to add, questions about items on it, etc. moving along ... passing on item 3, the process docs for FDSC * quaid looks to see where we are at with assigning editors process What do we have in process right now without an editor? one thing we have is several docs _I'm_ editing that I might like to pass on :) good point, though we can table this until we actually have a problem a process would solve :) You can pass them on as soon as the Style stuff is in the DG for others to refer to... true! Ha-HA! very nice and subtle point :) Do we have a true master list of docs ? There is https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi? id=129807 Mmm The docs-in-progress tracker bug... I think we've been pretty good about keeping it updated We may need to prune Does anybody know anything that's not there ? Maybe someone would like to take the task of gathering status and circulating a report before next FDSCo meeting maybe including "lost docs"? yes, we definitely need to go through the list and nudge people I'll build the Wiki page For instance, Charles ("tuxxer") just picked up one that was stagnating in my pile * stickster hides head in shame I used to do this, and about 75% either didn't respond or said they hadn't done anything it is important to keep the list fresh elliss: build a wiki page to list all the docs in progress? tcf: absolutely..... hi, by the way :-) stickster: howdy ;-) Yes. I said I'd maintain it I'll go through the bug all right, you got it ok https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/showdependencytree.cgi? id=129807 I was going to volunteer, but elliss is too quick ;-) check out the dependency tree for a nice view :) tcf: Back on your head, we're waiting for issue 7 moving on to 4. Process improvements for FDP stickster: hehe, it should be out in the middle of the month as usual ;-) my report is that I haven't changed anything or updated anything, but there has been some thinking going on. what processes are still not finalized? what I need to do is tie together the disparate pieces into the Doc Guide Could you send us a context diff? tcf: mainly a sanity and consistency check, since we have process stuff all over the place megacoder: what? of my life? Do you think you'll ultimately add that thinking into the DocGuide v2 outline? that's probably a good place for it I was thinking the same thing while I was making the outline... it was difficult to find everything at times you found quite a bit :) but yeah, that's the point of putting everyhtiing in the canon Right ok, I'll follow up with a report on the FDP website I've had some good suggestions and did a few changes, a few more are needed. it would be good for someone else (besides tcf) to understand how the website works one reason why is FESCO has asked if we can help with updating the entire website in terms of content so, I'm bringing that here for discussion ... It would kind of make sense... keep the writing/editing with the writers/editors sounds like we need a website team personally, I'd like to see project leaders do real updates, and let us edit them ... but ... to maintain consistent formatting, page locations, etc. one of gregdek's points is that many "projects" aren't, and many that are projects aren't on the site. tcf: yes we can recruit for more help from the list maybe the first step is to write up a quick and simple list of rules to use when building pages quaid: Which means that we need reference for people performing that task so they can do it correctly and consistently jinx! Is the technical side being revamped ? I like quaid's idea of just being the editors * quaid looks at tcf about revamping? not sure what the status is Just editing sounds like a big enough bite for now I'll ask gdk when he gets back to his desk * stickster agrees with tcf yeah, me too OK. It affects the content req'd tcf: can you write up an expansion of your website howto pages? something we can put in the Doc Guide and point all project leaders at? for modifying the website on fedora.redhat.com? yes sure, but I think we need to know whether we are moving to fedoraproject.org and wiki or to HTML only in cvs for fedora.redhat.com quaid: I like this idea... makes me think of another organizing factor, where each chapter will indicate clearly at the front whom it concerns something that includes quick/simple list of rules for building pages, and links to parts of the Doc Guide and other places that tell how to make things consistent. last time I talked to gdk about it, he had a prototype of fedora.redhat.com in html with ssi instead of all the php stuff tcf: good point ok, let's get a status on that before we put more time into the rest of f.r.c let me ask gdk about it first and if the word is that we are stuck with php for a while, then I'll write it up What is the effect of the ssi change? if the word is that we are going to html or wiki soon, I'll make it more generic Sorry, don't do live websites where I work :-) php allows you to have "php templates," variables like with a programming lang, and scripts that part content and generate html Right... I use that on my own blog SSI is server side includes, yes? yes so with ssi you can do simple things like have one header or footer fiile file and have an include line to bring it into all pages that need to share that content same concept as the /common dir in fedora-docs Oh, OK, I think I see... I do this with cheap-o javascript includes on another site I have at home for my HOA... same idea? need it more than once, write it once, update it once, etc. stickster: sounds like it tcf: Thanks :-) ssi=cheap content management ;-) ok, I'll continue maintaining our own pages we should think about one of us leading a website team of editors from within the FDP and that will help with the rest of f.r.c agreed If you can point me at the source I'll can submit patches for our page /cvs/fedora/web Thanks. In fact, that's probably the easiest way for you to accept changes, right quaid? yes https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=155642 attached to that bug ok, we're in the "misc/open" part of the agenda I think a priority 1 for f.r.c is updating the CVS chapter or continued discussion, or you can just leave if you want is someone assigned to that yet? I am watching.... ;-) don't think so want me to take a crack at it? quaid posted some changes but they look kinda funny since he was stuck with the bottom piece stuck with the bottom piece? tcf: Oops, you meant the DocGuide, didn't you? * tcf doesn't understand stickster: yes Sorry, I was talking about the simple CVS page In with the "participate" stuff Hey, we just got a web site maintance voluteer via self- intro... cool Eric R? yup Like he doesn't have enough to do with FLP! Glutton for punishment, he is... Then should we question his judgement ;-? stickster: do you have a link? nah, he works for academia they have time ;-D tcf: I think the answer to your question is, stickster is de facto assigned to updating the CVS chapter in the Doc Guide but it's not a specific assignment. quaid: ah, ok * stickster whistles nonchalantly and--- D'oh!!! the changes to the Doc Guide look like a little much for a single person to handle, unless you have a lot of time. I'm subscribed to the commit-list w/o any problems. stickster: if you want to update that part, that's fine just trying to volunteer for something tcf: No, I meant that quaid snagged me when I thought I was getting free help! stickster: can you divide up the changes into chunks and start with f-docs-list for volunteers? You can request patches instead of direct CVS access, because of the special nature of the work quaid: Right quaid: and "yes." * quaid points at tcf, stickster's first volunteer Woo-hoo!! yep, just let me know what pieces you want me to update all right, who's Dusty Fog? small chunks are preferred tcf: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ is the page with 2 different CVS instruction sets oh, yeah, that! That's really why I asked about patches :) I didn't want to mess with the include structure stickster: right, and http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/s1-cvs- configure.html quaid: is that php magic getting that to show up? tcf: Right, that's what you were referring to, correct? I don't want the bigger Doc Guide project to block that quaid: I can probably fix that tcf: yeah, the problem is that the include references rhlinux.redhat.com, which is still true for the main repository but not Extras or Docs and that's included for the page automagiclaly I see 3 places within Projects -> Docs to update for CVS info: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/s1-cvs- configure.html and 2 places on http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ quaid: I can fix the PHP to give the right location right, the Doc Guide needs to explain about real CVS usage as per the CVSAccess rules tcf: but then it will be wrong for other projecs, no? and then stickster can be in charge of picking someone to fix it in the Docs Guide quaid: not if I create another function name bingo! <-- Sopwith has quit ("Leaving") tcf: that would be a good transition step, thanks, please do that and let sopwith and gregdek know about it so they can give the new function name to other projects when they move to the new CVS quaid: ok, will do * tcf writes it down tcf: If you are willing + able, you could do the existing Doc Guide if you don't mind...? tcf: Excuse me, let me be less vague: If you don't mind, would you be able to fix the existing CVS *commands* in the Doc Guide? As you said, I'll find someone to do the larger narrative part sure, I'll update the "Configuring CVS on Your System" section That's the one! Ach! Don't edit ~/.bashrc for a one-time change! Use the "-d http:..." switch. You only need it for a one-time login and then once to checkout a new document. megacoder: Yo man, bugzilla that I'm stupid today ("what's different?"). Point me to details.. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 26 22:58:40 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:58:40 -0700 Subject: minutes/log 26-Apr-2005 meeting In-Reply-To: <1114550145.6234.242.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114550145.6234.242.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114556321.6234.244.camel@erato.phig.org> Here are the meta-minutes from the meeting: CVS Access * New page is ready for use: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fCvsUsage * Access control for CVS will be social. This means, people are told to be good and are trusted to do so. * Karsten and Paul will administate CVS for now. We'll be leaning on Elliot and Tammy for help. We need to capture a process that describes how to add new users. * The CVSAccess loosely describes what can get you in trouble or kicked out of docscvs: * System cracking of any kind (very bad) * Putting illegal files in CVS (very bad) * Intentionally messing with other people's docs (moderately bad) * Not asking first and making lots of mistakes (minor) * CVS ACLs will be used to control high-risk areas under our influence: * Fedora website * CVSROOT * Doc Guide * Karsten will send out group email about CVS that includes our general philosophy, a link to the usage guidelines, and how to apply for CVS. * Karsten will edit the style chapter for the Doc Guide, which will help other editors and writers, and hopefully Karsten can pass on some of his editing tasks at that point. * Stuart will build a Wiki page about docs in progress, tied to https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=129807. We then need to see if anyone needs nudging, help, etc. * Karsten will update the V2 Doc Guide outline to include any process changes/consolidation. * We're looking into forming a website editing group. We first want to know the future of fedora.redhat.com. Then we can write up some more style guidelines that are helpful to page maintainers, and follow-up with editing support for the entire site. * Karsten is working on updates to the FDP pages, with Stuart submitting patches. The bug to track this is https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=155642 * Paul and Tammy will work on updating the various CVS sections on f.r.c and in the Doc Guide. Tammy will update the PHP to create a new function that has CVS in the new location on cvs.fedora.redhat.com. ## 30 ## -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Apr 27 09:31:10 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:31:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: minutes/log 26-Apr-2005 meeting In-Reply-To: <1114556321.6234.244.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114550145.6234.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114556321.6234.244.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <51034.193.195.148.66.1114594270.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> As the Americans say on chat shows, "First of all", I would like to say sorry for last night. I had my son on my lap, so I could only watch and not type (it was his Mum night off ;-) ), but here are my comments: > Here are the meta-minutes from the meeting: > > CVS Access > > * New page is ready for use: > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fCvsUsage Looks great. Well done Paul and everyone! > > * Access control for CVS will be social. This means, people are told > to be good and are trusted to do so. I think this has to be the way to go. > > * Karsten and Paul will administate CVS for now. We'll be leaning on > Elliot and Tammy for help. We need to capture a process that > describes how to add new users. With CV access, can a use update anything in the docs module or only what they have been allocated, I can't remember what was said before? > * The CVSAccess loosely describes what can get you in trouble or > kicked out of docscvs: > > * System cracking of any kind (very bad) > * Putting illegal files in CVS (very bad) > * Intentionally messing with other people's docs (moderately bad) > * Not asking first and making lots of mistakes (minor) I think this answer my question above, messing with peoples files. > * CVS ACLs will be used to control high-risk areas under our > influence: > * Fedora website > * CVSROOT > * Doc Guide Fair enough. > * Karsten will send out group email about CVS that includes our > general philosophy, a link to the usage guidelines, and how to apply > for CVS. OK. > * Karsten will edit the style chapter for the Doc Guide, which will > help other editors and writers, and hopefully Karsten can pass on > some of his editing tasks at that point. I'm waiting for some task ;-) > * Stuart will build a Wiki page about docs in progress, tied to > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=129807. We > then need to see if anyone needs nudging, help, etc. Anyway way to have some sort of include that pulls that page into the wiki and vice versa in order not to duplicate work? > * Karsten will update the V2 Doc Guide outline to include any process > changes/consolidation. > > * We're looking into forming a website editing group. We first want > to know the future of fedora.redhat.com. Then we can write up some > more style guidelines that are helpful to page maintainers, and > follow-up with editing support for the entire site. Yes, what do people want on the site? > * Karsten is working on updates to the FDP pages, with Stuart > submitting patches. The bug to track this is > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=155642 Checking... > * Paul and Tammy will work on updating the various CVS sections on > f.r.c and in the Doc Guide. Tammy will update the PHP to create a > new function that has CVS in the new location on > cvs.fedora.redhat.com. Gavin will.... Who needs some help? Thanks. > > ## 30 ## > > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list > From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Wed Apr 27 12:10:13 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:10:13 +0100 Subject: minutes/log 26-Apr-2005 meeting In-Reply-To: <51034.193.195.148.66.1114594270.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1114550145.6234.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114556321.6234.244.camel@erato.phig.org> <51034.193.195.148.66.1114594270.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1114603813.11515.232826994@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:31:10 +0100 (BST), "Gavin Henry" said: > > * Stuart will build a Wiki page about docs in progress, tied to > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=129807. We > > then need to see if anyone needs nudging, help, etc. > > Anyway way to have some sort of include that pulls that page into the > wiki > and vice versa in order not to duplicate work? That may be useful. I think the workflow is going to evolve as we progress, so I'm OK with getting the process going in the simplest way and then changing things round once we've got a better handle on it. -- Stuart Ellis From tfox at redhat.com Wed Apr 27 14:58:45 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:58:45 -0400 Subject: minutes/log 26-Apr-2005 meeting In-Reply-To: <1114556321.6234.244.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114550145.6234.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114556321.6234.244.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114613925.5817.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-26 at 15:58 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Here are the meta-minutes from the meeting: > > CVS Access > > * New page is ready for use: > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fCvsUsage > > * Access control for CVS will be social. This means, people are told > to be good and are trusted to do so. > > * Karsten and Paul will administate CVS for now. We'll be leaning on > Elliot and Tammy for help. We need to capture a process that > describes how to add new users. > > * The CVSAccess loosely describes what can get you in trouble or > kicked out of docscvs: > > * System cracking of any kind (very bad) > * Putting illegal files in CVS (very bad) > * Intentionally messing with other people's docs (moderately bad) > * Not asking first and making lots of mistakes (minor) > > * CVS ACLs will be used to control high-risk areas under our > influence: > * Fedora website > * CVSROOT > * Doc Guide > > * Karsten will send out group email about CVS that includes our > general philosophy, a link to the usage guidelines, and how to apply > for CVS. > > * Karsten will edit the style chapter for the Doc Guide, which will > help other editors and writers, and hopefully Karsten can pass on > some of his editing tasks at that point. > > * Stuart will build a Wiki page about docs in progress, tied to > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=129807. We > then need to see if anyone needs nudging, help, etc. > > * Karsten will update the V2 Doc Guide outline to include any process > changes/consolidation. > > * We're looking into forming a website editing group. We first want > to know the future of fedora.redhat.com. Then we can write up some > more style guidelines that are helpful to page maintainers, and > follow-up with editing support for the entire site. > For the foreseeable future, what is it CVS for fedora.redhat.com is what we have to work with. Regardless of the technologies used to build the site, we can still develop general guidelines for pages and editing. Tammy > * Karsten is working on updates to the FDP pages, with Stuart > submitting patches. The bug to track this is > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=155642 > > * Paul and Tammy will work on updating the various CVS sections on > f.r.c and in the Doc Guide. Tammy will update the PHP to create a > new function that has CVS in the new location on > cvs.fedora.redhat.com. > > > ## 30 ## > > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list From s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk Thu Apr 28 00:09:21 2005 From: s.ellis at fastmail.co.uk (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 01:09:21 +0100 Subject: Change of e-mail address Message-ID: <1114646961.1266.232885968@webmail.messagingengine.com> Just to note that I'll be moving to a new e-mail address to match my GPG key: stuart at elsn.org Mail to the current address routes to the same account. -- Stuart Ellis From stuart at elsn.org Thu Apr 28 00:28:34 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 01:28:34 +0100 Subject: Document Assignment List Message-ID: <1114648114.8044.15.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> I've now populated this page: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fEditorAssignments This listing is fairly strict - anything not listed on the tracker bugs is marked with "unlisted", and all of the documents in CVS or on the Website without Bugzilla entries are listed under "unmaintained", since I'm not sure who is (or ain't) currently maintaining them. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 28 00:28:55 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:28:55 -0700 Subject: CVS ahoy! Message-ID: <1114648136.6234.336.camel@erato.phig.org> Let's all get our various disparate ideas and semi pieces into CVS. Looking through the bugs, there are a number of nearly-completed pieces we could make live as soon as they are done. It will be easier when we are all working from the same CVS. Paul, you can do this too with your changes that make the Style chapter included in the Doc Guide. Then I'll recheck out that directory and merge my changes in. Instead of getting me an account on svn.frields.org. :) I'd like to move some of this stuff _off_ bugzilla, such as the Installation Guide and patches to it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 28 01:04:59 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:04:59 -0700 Subject: Document Assignment List In-Reply-To: <1114648114.8044.15.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> References: <1114648114.8044.15.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> Message-ID: <1114650299.6234.344.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 01:28 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > I've now populated this page: > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fEditorAssignments > > This listing is fairly strict - anything not listed on the tracker bugs > is marked with "unlisted", and all of the documents in CVS or on the > Website without Bugzilla entries are listed under "unmaintained", since > I'm not sure who is (or ain't) currently maintaining them. Strict is good. Just an hour before you sent this out, I was looking at this bugzilla search result[1] and feeling despair at the orphaned pieces in there, or stuff I didn't know about. And then your email arrived. Hurrah! I added Mark's Emacs/PSGML quickstart doc to the list. You might find a few more missing pieces with this too-thorough bugzilla search: [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=Fedora+Core&version=devel&version=fc1&version=fc2&version=fc3&version=fc3test1&version=fc3test2&version=fc3test3&version=fc4test1&version=fc4test2&version=test1&version=test2&component=fedora-docs&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=CLOSED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=MODIFIED&bug_status=ASSIGN_TO_PM&bug_status=INVESTIGATE&bug_status=SPEC&bug_status=ON_DEV&bug_status=QA_READY&bug_status=ON_QA&bug_status=PROD_READY&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc= The enhancement bugs (in italics) stand out and are usually about new docs. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Thu Apr 28 01:49:30 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 02:49:30 +0100 Subject: Document Assignment List In-Reply-To: <1114650299.6234.344.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114648114.8044.15.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> <1114650299.6234.344.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114652970.8044.41.camel@humboldt.eln.lan> On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 18:04 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 01:28 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > I've now populated this page: > > > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fEditorAssignments > > > I added Mark's Emacs/PSGML quickstart doc to the list. I actually saw that, but scanning the ToC I assumed that this material had been absorbed into the Documentation Guide. > You might find a > few more missing pieces with this too-thorough bugzilla search: > > [1] > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=Fedora+Core&version=devel&version=fc1&version=fc2&version=fc3&version=fc3test1&version=fc3test2&version=fc3test3&version=fc4test1&version=fc4test2&version=test1&version=test2&component=fedora-docs&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=CLOSED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=MODIFIED&bug_status=ASSIGN_TO_PM&bug_status=INVESTIGATE&bug_status=SPEC&bug_status=ON_DEV&bug_status=QA_READY&bug_status=ON_QA&bug_status=PROD_READY&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc= That made Bugzilla think. I can't see anything else here that isn't on the Wiki. A trawl of the mailing archives produces a couple of small tutorials on the Firewall and Wireless that aren't in Bugzilla. Firewall tutorial: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2004-May/msg00040.html Wireless: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2004- April/msg00009.html Also, training course material from Colin Charles: http://training.bytebot.net/linux/ Might be worth pinging the authors to see if they'd like to update and submit them. Lastly, I haven't included the Oracle installation tutorial that's on the tracker, because the author effectively withdrew it on list. One more mail, and then I'm off to bed. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 28 09:25:40 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 02:25:40 -0700 Subject: CVS ahoy! In-Reply-To: <1114648136.6234.336.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114648136.6234.336.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114680340.6234.355.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 17:28 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Paul, you can do this too with your changes that make the Style chapter > included in the Doc Guide. Then I'll recheck out that directory and > merge my changes in. Instead of getting me an account on > svn.frields.org. :) I ended up doing this myself, realizing it was the same thing in the end. I first checked in the docs-style-en.xml, then added the local variable and adjusted the indenting, then got on with the edits. Unfortunately, we're not getting syncmail out of cvs.fedora through to fedora-docs-commits. I think the mailman settings are correct. I have this non-member address that should be automatically accepted for posting: ^.*@fedora.redhat.com The ^ denotes a regexp. I'm pretty sure all I did in the file 'loginfo' was substitute the email address, leaving the rest the same. It used to work with the previous email address. Therefore, I suspect there is something my my mailman config that still needs tweaking. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 28 22:05:38 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:05:38 -0700 Subject: DRAFT - "CVS now open" - please comment by Midnight UTC 28 April Message-ID: <1114725938.6234.435.camel@erato.phig.org> ## While the number of lurkers on this list is low, I want to solicit ## some feedback about this CVS announcement. Low level, this is not ## vital, just if you catch this in the next few hours, I'll take some ## advise. Otherwise, I'm sending this puppy by 6 pm PDT. Hi fellow writers and editors: We are mighty pleased to announce the opening of CVS for the Docs Project. Our intention is to have the lowest barrier to entry possible. After getting our grubby little hands, uh, I mean, fine Elven fists on the keys a few weeks ago, we have been formulating some philosophy and guidelines to help make our experience nicer. ## Quick Version of How To Get CVS Access: * Read the CVSAccess guidelines Wiki page[1] * Do a proper self-introduction to the list * Show that you have something to put in CVS: as an editor through picking something to edit or as a writer through producing a draft or working outline * Using the proper process[2], get an account on cvs.fedora.redhat.com [3], put yourself in the 'cvsdocs' group, and wait for approval. [1] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage [2] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/CvsAccess [3] https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ This all presumes you have read the Documentation Quick Start[4] and are familiar with the Fedora Project Documentation Guide[5]. Don't worry about the DocBook/XML stuff right now. :) [4] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ [5] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ ## What Philosophy? Golden Rule in effect. Treat others and their directories in CVS as you would have them treat you and your files. Only truly vital resources will have CVS ACLs. You are on your best behavior as a community member to Do The Right Thing. Don't put any illegal stuff in CVS. That would be BAD. Don't attempt (or succeed) in cracking the CVS host systems, or use it as a launchpad for crack attempts. That would be VERY BAD. ## Who Gets to Go Where? Read the CVSAccess[1] page for details. The quick version is that assigned writer(s), editor(s), and a doc manager are the only ones who should be messing around in a particular directory. The doc manager is the single person accountable for what goes on in the directory. It can be one of the writers, editors, or third person otherwise not involved. To start, it's likely to be one of the FDSCo members, lending a wise and guiding hand where needed. *cues ethereal music* Each doc has one or more writers who must collaborate together within the same repository. Thank ye gods for revision control! An editor can edit for technical and grammatical/wordsmith details. The editor must know and enforce the style guidelines from the Doc Guide[6]. There may be more than one editor to fill all the roles. [6] Forthcoming URL _will_be_ -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Thu Apr 28 22:13:21 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:13:21 +0100 Subject: DRAFT - "CVS now open" - please comment by Midnight UTC 28 April In-Reply-To: <1114725938.6234.435.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114725938.6234.435.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200504282313.22368.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Thursday 28 Apr 2005 23:05, Karsten Wade wrote: > ## While the number of lurkers on this list is low, I want to solicit > ## some feedback about this CVS announcement. Low level, this is not > ## vital, just if you catch this in the next few hours, I'll take some > ## advise. Otherwise, I'm sending this puppy by 6 pm PDT. > > Hi fellow writers and editors: > > We are mighty pleased to announce the opening of CVS for the Docs > Project. > > Our intention is to have the lowest barrier to entry possible. After > getting our grubby little hands, uh, I mean, fine Elven fists on the > keys a few weeks ago, we have been formulating some philosophy and > guidelines to help make our experience nicer. > > ## Quick Version of How To Get CVS Access: > > * Read the CVSAccess guidelines Wiki page[1] > * Do a proper self-introduction to the list > * Show that you have something to put in CVS: as an editor through > picking something to edit or as a writer through producing a draft or > working outline > * Using the proper process[2], get an account on cvs.fedora.redhat.com > [3], put yourself in the 'cvsdocs' group, and wait for approval. > > [1] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage > [2] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/CvsAccess > [3] https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ > > This all presumes you have read the Documentation Quick Start[4] and are > familiar with the Fedora Project Documentation Guide[5]. Don't worry > about the DocBook/XML stuff right now. :) > > [4] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ > [5] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ > > ## What Philosophy? > > Golden Rule in effect. Treat others and their directories in CVS as you > would have them treat you and your files. > > Only truly vital resources will have CVS ACLs. You are on your best > behavior as a community member to Do The Right Thing. > > Don't put any illegal stuff in CVS. That would be BAD. > > Don't attempt (or succeed) in cracking the CVS host systems, or use it > as a launchpad for crack attempts. That would be VERY BAD. > > ## Who Gets to Go Where? > > Read the CVSAccess[1] page for details. The quick version is that > assigned writer(s), editor(s), and a doc manager are the only ones who > should be messing around in a particular directory. > > The doc manager is the single person accountable for what goes on in the > directory. It can be one of the writers, editors, or third person > otherwise not involved. To start, it's likely to be one of the FDSCo > members, lending a wise and guiding hand where needed. *cues ethereal > music* > > Each doc has one or more writers who must collaborate together within > the same repository. Thank ye gods for revision control! > > An editor can edit for technical and grammatical/wordsmith details. The > editor must know and enforce the style guidelines from the Doc Guide[6]. > There may be more than one editor to fill all the roles. > > [6] Forthcoming URL _will_be_ Looks good to me. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 29 05:44:28 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:44:28 -0700 Subject: CVS now open Message-ID: <1114753469.6234.460.camel@erato.phig.org> Hi fellow writers and editors: We are mighty pleased to announce the opening of CVS for the Docs Project. Our intention is to have the lowest barrier to entry possible. After getting our grubby little hands, uh, I mean, fine Elven fists on the keys a few weeks ago, we have been formulating some philosophy and guidelines to help make our experience nicer. ## Quick Version of How To Get CVS Access: * Read the CVSAccess guidelines Wiki page[1] * Do a proper self-introduction to the list * Show that you have something to put in CVS: as an editor by picking something to edit, as a writer through producing a draft or working outline * Use the proper process[2] to get an account on cvs.fedora.redhat.com [3]. Put yourself in the 'cvsdocs' group and wait for approval. [1] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage [2] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/CvsAccess [3] https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ This all presumes you have read the Documentation Quick Start[4] and are familiar with the Fedora Project Documentation Guide[5]. Don't worry about the DocBook/XML stuff right now. :) [4] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ [5] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ ## What Philosophy? Golden Rule in effect. Treat others and their directories in CVS as you would have them treat you and your files. Only truly vital resources will have CVS ACLs. You are on your best behavior as a community member to Do The Right Thing. Don't put any illegal stuff in CVS. That would be BAD. Don't attempt (or succeed) in cracking the CVS host systems, or use it as a launchpad for crack attempts. That would be VERY BAD. ## Who Gets to Go Where? Read the CVSAccess[1] page for details. The quick version is that assigned writer(s), editor(s), and a doc manager are the only ones who should be messing around in a particular directory. The doc manager is the single person accountable for what goes on in the directory. It can be one of the writers, editors, or third person otherwise not involved. To start, it's likely to be one of the FDSCo members, lending a wise and guiding hand where needed. *cues ethereal music* Each doc has one or more writers who must collaborate together within the same repository. Thank ye gods for revision control! An editor can edit for technical and grammatical/wordsmith details. The editor must know and enforce the style guidelines from the Doc Guide[6]. There may be more than one editor to fill all the roles. [6] Forthcoming URL _will_be_: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-style.html NOTE: URL does not work. We're, uh, editing it for style. Long story. Coming Real Soon Now, with a shiny announcement. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Fri Apr 29 08:51:10 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:51:10 +0100 Subject: CVS now open In-Reply-To: <1114753469.6234.460.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1114753469.6234.460.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1114764670.25818.232998100@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:44:28 -0700, "Karsten Wade" said: > ## Quick Version of How To Get CVS Access: > > * Read the CVSAccess guidelines Wiki page[1] > * Do a proper self-introduction to the list > * Show that you have something to put in CVS: as an editor by picking > something to edit, as a writer through producing a draft or working > outline > * Use the proper process[2] to get an account on cvs.fedora.redhat.com > [3]. Put yourself in the 'cvsdocs' group and wait for approval. > > [1] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage > [2] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/CvsAccess > [3] https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ > > This all presumes you have read the Documentation Quick Start[4] and are > familiar with the Fedora Project Documentation Guide[5]. Don't worry > about the DocBook/XML stuff right now. :) > > [4] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ > [5] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ I think that it's worth having a separate checklist for new writers, as there is now a fair number of steps here, initially to self introduce and then to prepare for working in CVS. From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 11:57:14 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:57:14 -0400 Subject: CVS now open In-Reply-To: <1114764670.25818.232998100@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1114753469.6234.460.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114764670.25818.232998100@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1114775835.4579.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 09:51 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:44:28 -0700, "Karsten Wade" > said: > > > ## Quick Version of How To Get CVS Access: > > > > * Read the CVSAccess guidelines Wiki page[1] > > * Do a proper self-introduction to the list > > * Show that you have something to put in CVS: as an editor by picking > > something to edit, as a writer through producing a draft or working > > outline > > * Use the proper process[2] to get an account on cvs.fedora.redhat.com > > [3]. Put yourself in the 'cvsdocs' group and wait for approval. > > > > [1] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/CvsUsage > > [2] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/CvsAccess > > [3] https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ > > > > This all presumes you have read the Documentation Quick Start[4] and are > > familiar with the Fedora Project Documentation Guide[5]. Don't worry > > about the DocBook/XML stuff right now. :) > > > > [4] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-quick-start/ > > [5] http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ > > I think that it's worth having a separate checklist for new writers, as > there is now a fair number of steps here, initially to self introduce > and then to prepare for working in CVS. That sounded to me quite a bit like "I am writing a separate checklist for new writers." ;-) I think that's a fine idea. The checklist should not duplicate material from the other pages, just link them as needed. What you're suggesting -- very astutely, I might add -- is that for new people there's an awful lot of guidelines scattered around... where to start? The wiki would be a good place for it right now, since that is where we are gathering all the ideas for the next-gen Documentation Guide. Karsten can link it on the f.r.c Docs Project front page when done. The DocGuide will eventually be one-stop shopping for everything FDP, and will have an entire dedicated to walking a new writer very gently through getting started, from subscribing to the mailing list to learning how to use tools like CVS and DocBook. I would imagine that when the DocGuide-v2 is ready, the wiki will eventually devolve to a scratch pad and testing zone, which is just how it should be IMHO. For the page, I would suggest: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters I've linked this from the wiki DocsProject front page prominently and attached your name. Grat idea, roll with it! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Fri Apr 29 12:37:28 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:37:28 +0100 Subject: CVS now open In-Reply-To: <1114775835.4579.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114753469.6234.460.camel@erato.phig.org> <1114764670.25818.232998100@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1114775835.4579.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114778248.15667.233009083@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:57:14 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" said: > > I think that it's worth having a separate checklist for new writers, as > > there is now a fair number of steps here, initially to self introduce > > and then to prepare for working in CVS. > > That sounded to me quite a bit like "I am writing a separate checklist > for new writers." ;-) I think that's a fine idea. The checklist > should not duplicate material from the other pages, just link them as > needed. What you're suggesting -- very astutely, I might add -- is that > for new people there's an awful lot of guidelines scattered around... > where to start? I test high for laziness, but since you've added flattery, OK. > I would imagine that > when the DocGuide-v2 is ready, the wiki will eventually devolve to a > scratch pad and testing zone, which is just how it should be IMHO. Absolutely. The current problem is that (to my surprise) we have a whole bunch of docs, but almost none of them are in CVS, or in the process queue in any way. So we probably need to draft a couple more editors as soon as we can and then prod the non-FDSCo writers who are already out there - I know that Charles Heselton has already volunteered to edit a couple of docs as well as writing his tutorial. Gruesome details: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fEditorAssignments > For the page, I would suggest: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters > > I've linked this from the wiki DocsProject front page prominently and > attached your name. Grat idea, roll with it! We've already got a page called Writers: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fWriters I'll move it to GettingStarted or similar and write it up this weekend. From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 18:10:59 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:10:59 -0400 Subject: Install Guide in CVS Message-ID: <1114884659.5016.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> When I use CVS, I typically have a little Karsten Wade head that floats around my own head, much like a cheap dream sequence from a bad 1980's TV show about junior high school. "Wield the power wisely," it intones gravely, and I get a little shaky about actually doing a commit. Well, today, I waved the little quaid-head away like a bothersome mosquito, and actually did a major upload. It was a little heady, all that power, so I took half a Valium afterward and lay down. The upshot is, Stuart's newest Installation Guide is up in CVS now. Hope this doesn't step on anyone's toes. I just happened to have some free time before I head out of town this evening, and wanted to Do Some Good. Since fedora-docs-commits is still in questionable shape, I figured this was the best way to let folks know. I wasn't sure this needed to go to f-docs-l yet, but if anyone wants to forward it, have at it. Cheers! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From s.anthony at hipub.net Sat Apr 30 19:13:41 2005 From: s.anthony at hipub.net (s.anthony at hipub.net) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:13:41 GMT Subject: Business Alliance Message-ID: We are interested in licensing, joint venture, and strategic alliances. We are an investment banking consulting firm specializing in assisting companies in going public. However, we are very limited in our knowledge of the above areas (licensing, joint ventures and strategic alliances). 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