minutes/log for 03 May 2005 meeting

[Karsten Wade]

Working on a new format for the minutes, based on Tammy's suggestion and
Colin's format, and will send those to f-docs-l and f-announce.

<irc_log>

<quaid> <meeting>
<quaid> Sorry about the double-scheduling today, I have to leave in 20
minutes
<quaid> for a Dr. app't, I'll leave the meeting open and just say "bbl"
so the
<quaid> conversation can continue.  OK?  And on to the first item.
* quaid exercises the Power of Paste
<quaid> is there anything new that we want to discuss while all here,
that is not on the agenda?
<stickster> Nothing pressing here
<quaid> just making sure I forgot nothing in the agenda, didn't put a
tonne of thought into it :)
<quaid> ok, then
<quaid> Hi everyone
* quaid forgot that part
<G2> Hi all
<stickster> Howdy
<quaid> so, no one has asked for CVS access yet outside of this
group ... not sure how to take that ... :)
<elliss> I'm confused on this
<quaid> go ahead
<elliss> The process rules say that CVS is for working on active docs
<elliss> Outside this committee there are only a couple of authors 
<G2> I never got one reply to my Fedora Forum post.
<quaid> active authors?
<elliss> With docs posted to the list
<elliss> Lots of people say they would write
<elliss> on Self Intros
<quaid> that -can- be good enough
<quaid> example is the sEcurity series
<elliss> Sure
<G2> I think people just need to find the time.
<quaid> the outline he gave + self-intro seems tofulfill the requirement
<elliss> Check the other intros tho
<tcf> people are probably waiting until they have something to commit to
request access
<quaid> probably
<stickster> re: tcf's comment... That's what many of us did when we
started
<megacoder> Should we have a Wiki of self-intros?
<G2> Maybe we should stress that they can commit anything
<tcf> it might help to send individual emails to those with recent self
intros
<G2> Just to show activity?
<elliss> People don't seem clear what to write (from Self Intros)
<quaid> megacoder: at least with links to the mail archives
<megacoder> Is this list archved outside of RH?
<quaid> probably
<stickster> megacoder: It can be mirrored anywhere... is it? dunno
<quaid> gmane
<quaid> remember the guy griping about that onn all the lists recently?
<megacoder> Me? Remeber?
<megacoder> Ha!
<quaid> oh, right
<stickster> G2: We have to have a modicum of care about docs "thrown
over the wall"
<stickster> Don't want a cvs full of dead docs
<G2> Ah OK.
<quaid> can anyone drag through the archives and create a Wiki of Self
intros to get started, then we can divide up the list amongst ourselves
and each contact someone individually,.
<megacoder> Dead docs are the purvue of the doc manager(s).
<elliss> There's already a writers Wiki page we can use
<G2> stickster: Personally, I'd like to see something rather than
nothing at all.
<quaid> yeah, maybe links to self-intros in the archives from the
writers page.
<G2> stickster: Even just the layout.
<quaid> G2: not mutually exclusvie
<quaid> a layout is enough for entry :)
<elliss> OK.  How do we get people started ?
<quaid> and, yes, the doc manager can clean out dead stuff
<stickster> G2: sure, just trying to say that we should define
"anything"
<megacoder> Some folk over on the Linux Kernel Mailing List mentioned
that documentors never get their name up in lights.  Here is our chance
to fix that.
<G2> stickster: yes, make it document layout/structures etc.
<quaid> elliss: we can lead a horse to water ...
<stickster> G2: bingo
<quaid> we have lots to do already that will be helpful
<quaid> * updating the doc guide
<quaid> * updating the quick start stuff
<quaid> * collating all the materials into one or two pages so that
people aren't lost
<quaid> etc.
<stickster> elliss: Take our newest potential contributor... had a good
idea, we gave him encouragement... when he shows up with first draft,
it's CVS time... 
* G2 wonders what it takes to get given some work 
<quaid> we'll just keep pushing on it, and peole will come on one at a
time.
<quaid> G2: can you update the Writers Wiki page with links to self-
intros in the archives?
<quaid> anyone who self-intros is a writer.
<elliss> quaid: I don't think that's so
<G2> quaid: nope ;-) Yeah sure. I'll did through in the morning.
<quaid> or an editor
<stickster> or a technical reviewer
<elliss> Potential
<G2> yes, potential
<quaid> just call everyone a writer for now?
<stickster> contributor?
<quaid> ok
<elliss> +1
<quaid> G2: can you make that a DocsProject/Contributors page with links
to self-intros?
<quaid> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2004-
March/msg00005.html
<stickster> Might I also suggest condensing the Writers and Editors
pages into that, then?
<quaid> there's mine :)
<quaid> sure, we could do that
* quaid curses Wikis
<stickster> :-)
<quaid> make redirects from the other pages into the Contributors
<elliss> Suggestion: FDSCo people should put the self intro stuff on
their Wiki page 
<elliss> and link to that
<quaid> +1
<stickster> elliss: great idea
<quaid> http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-
style.html
<quaid> style guidelines are live
<stickster> hurrah!
<G2> quaid: yeas. Just getting my son ;-) He's on my lap with a
bottle ;-)
<elliss> Yah !
* quaid sends pre-prepared email to list
<stickster> Hold off on that
<quaid> sorry
<quaid> too late
<stickster> Oh, nm
* quaid is flying today
<quaid> any more CVS stuff?
<stickster> I just need to do a little research to get the FDL
requirements handled in the text
<quaid> ah
<quaid> yeah
<stickster> my bad
<quaid> let's just go forward
<quaid> leave an obvious audit trail in CVS
<stickster> right
<quaid> (commit logs)
<quaid> best intentions, all that
<elliss> Q: is there something a new contrib can do with CVS
straightaway
<quaid> elliss: yes
<elliss> To get them moving ?
<quaid> put in a template XML in about 30 minutes
<quaid> if you have a doc outline, you can have a blank doc pretty quick
<quaid> at least, I could :)
<elliss> sounds good
<quaid> and then start writing into it or collaborating
<tcf> agreed, committing an outline shows commitment
<stickster> What does "move everything up one level" mean?
<stickster> (from agenda)
<quaid> stickster: when I get back, I'll touch base with you about the
FDL, we can split up that work some, I have to be accountable for that.
<stickster> k
<quaid> stickster: the fedora-docs/ folder stuff
<quaid> like to get all that up into /cvs/docs ... right?
<tcf> or if someone wants to write a doc, but doesn't know docbook, one
of us could create a quick docbook template for them based on an outline
and let them roll with it
<quaid> or not
<quaid> we could also have /cvs/docs/process-docs/ and so forth
<quaid> tcf: nice!
<stickster> quaid: gotcha... so there will be a separate module for each
doc
<quaid> in fact, we should just do that by updating the template.
<stickster> quaid: or... :-)
<quaid> right
<quaid> something to discuss ... should there be a separate module for
each doc
<elliss> Can anybody create a module then ?
<quaid> with a cvs import, right, tcf ?
<tcf> quaid: exactly, take the burden of cvs import and the docbook
template off of new writers
<stickster> Modules are also good because no one has to take down a
bunch of extraneous material to work on a single doc
<megacoder> Takes two steps: "cvs import" and then c/o and commit
"CVSROOT/modules".
<quaid> ok, yeah, then ayone could create a module that way
<tcf> and yes, you can create a module with cvs import
<elliss> That would make things easy
<stickster> The modules stuff can be configured to always include
common, xsl, etc
<quaid> megacoder: so anyone has to write to CVSROOT/modules _or_ we
need to have a CVS admin to do that?
<tcf> I can write a quick "how to create a new module" doc if someone
tells me the best place to put it
<megacoder> Anybody.
<quaid> tcf: in fedora-docs/documentation-guide/
<tcf> stickster: exactly
<G2> Has the been any progress with the docbook wiki trials?
<tcf> quaid: ok, will add to my list
<quaid> tcf: thx
<megacoder> But I'd limit access to it to just the doc managers.
<quaid> ok, sensible
<elliss> Just to note that we're revising our process stuff here
<quaid> any other questions about the agenda?
<tcf> agreed
<stickster> G2: Who exactly was doing that?
<quaid> elliss: in what way exactly?  please spell out for the record :)
<G2> stickster: I thought someone was?
<quaid> megacoder was looking into it at one point
<stickster> G2: you see my point then ;-D
<quaid> bbl
<stickster> bye quaid 
<elliss> I just mean that we are changing the process from what's on the
Wiki
<G2> bye
<stickster> elliss: I'll capture this and get it on the CvsUsage page
<elliss> Sure
<G2> stickster: We should have a task page for each committee member ;-)
<stickster> Once we know how to *do* it, according to tcf's expert
guidance :-)
<stickster> G2: We have the minutes mail to refer to... I would rather
not create yet another place I need to checklist my work... that's what
my sticky-notes applet is for :-)
<megacoder> Someone mentioned my name in vain, just now.  What about?
<elliss> G2: We've already got a Wiki page each
<stickster> megacoder: G2 thought you were looking into docbook to Wiki
conversion
<megacoder> Not I.  I was tinkering with the sandbox idea.
<stickster> right, copy that
<G2> elliss: yes, of course. I'll add my taks there
<elliss> OK.  I'll do the same
<elliss> It's good idea
<stickster> everyone should feel free to list tasks wherever... I will
probably refrain if it's all the same to everyone else
<elliss> The alternative is we tag the master tasks list
<elliss> with names
<G2> stickster: How come? Too many places to keep track of?
<stickster> G2: right on
<G2> stickster: I know the feeling
<stickster> I spend too much time on the Wiki as it is
<tcf> I think one list is best too, but that's just me
* G2 Has two hands to type now, Ben is asleep!!!
<stickster> Need to get writing/editing done in my limited spare time
<tcf> G2: nice! warm milk does it every time ;-)
* G2 is doing an update for the Amanda docs that I maintain too.
<stickster> Should we move on to issue #3 on the agenda
<stickster> ?
<G2> tcf: Cold for him. He's got a cold. Snot everywhere and sneezes...
<stickster> Oh wait a minute, I'm rushing, sorry
<tcf> G2: ugh, my daughter (and I) are getting over a cold too
<stickster> Status check is that CVS has been corrected in the Doc Guide
to point to cvs.f.r.c
<G2> tcf: not nice watching a 1 years old (minux three months for his
prematureness) lick/suck their own snot ;-(
<stickster> Not much else done yet, but the outline is still on the wiki
for comment:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fDocumentationGuide
<G2> stickster: checking
<stickster> G2: yecchh!  (But my son does it too, the little ogre)
<tcf> stickster: not yet, I had it on my list to do last week, but I
injuried my eye and wasn't able to work from wed to sun
* megacoder suggests "snot" is a bit OT.
<elliss> +1
<elliss> With feeling
<tcf> stickster: but I will do it this week along with the cvs import
stuff
<stickster> tcf: 'sOK...
<stickster> I've been working on editing Stuart's excellent work on the
Installation Guide
<stickster> I know everyone is hot to have it out for FC4... at least,
that seemed to be the general feeling
<elliss> I think that everybody thinks it's a good idea
<elliss> but a PITA to work on
<stickster> There will be at least a rough version ready... It will
probably *still* require work after FC4 goes final, but there's nothing
we can do about that
<tcf> do we have a master task list for the steering committee in wiki?
I'm having trouble find it
<stickster> I mean, other than work on it
<stickster> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject_2fMasterTasks
<tcf> stickster: thanks, I found that, but it doesn't have names
associated with it
* G2 Ben back. One hand again, so just watching
<stickster> not yet it doesn't
<tcf> stickster: have you seen the one fedora extras uses?
<tcf> stickster: gdk suggested we put something like that together
<tcf> stickster: to show who is accountable for each task
<stickster> I can't find it.... I see their package building reports,
but not a task list... link anyone?
<G2> brb
<tcf> stickster: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraExtrasSchedule
<stickster> tcf: thanks
<tcf> stickster: that is the one for the Fedora Extras
<tcf> I like the closed issues too
<stickster> That's not bad... 
<tcf> so we can show we've made progress
<stickster> Right, rather than just having a page that looks different
every time you see it, but you can't quite put your finger on how...
<stickster> megacoder: Care to start that up?
<tcf> we don't have this problem, but for some steering committees, it
is nice to see who is actively working so the chair can make sure the
best people are on the committee
<tcf> stickster: exactly
<tcf> plus it gives us a way to quickly record our tasks list after each
meeting
<stickster> tcf: all right, I get it, you're trying to kick people off
already  (I kid! I KID!)
<megacoder> OK, I'll give it a try with sufficient handholding
<stickster> You can do it man... just check their page and use it as a
template
<stickster> We have faith in you
<tcf> the beauty of open source ;-)
<stickster> Yee-HA baby!
<megacoder> Oh, behave!
<G2> now now
<stickster> This kind of dovetails nicely with #3 on the agenda then...
"writers assignment improvements" and "tracking of open docs"
<tcf> good change of subject ;-)
<megacoder> Going, going, gone!
<stickster> I am segue man
<tcf> before we move on, I would like to say that I love Colin's summary
of their meetings: http://lwn.net/Articles/125865/
<tcf> just fyi for quaid to see if he reads the logs when he gets back
from the doctor
<elliss> I never knew they did that
<stickster> Can we say some stuff about his mama in here too?
<tcf> elliss: yes, the fedora extras committee has it together
<stickster> They kind of have to, since they're tracking, like 1300
packages in their repo
<stickster> FESCo rocks
<tcf> +1
* stickster totally made that number up and stuff
<elliss> It's about that
<G2> yes.
<G2> ANyone has any RPMS in there?
<stickster> In my copious spare time, brother
<elliss> Reminds me
<stickster> One day we'll cross cut the fedora-docs-* RPMs to them, I'm
sure :-)
<G2> I have about 7 or 8. <time
<elliss> Did everybody see the RPMs tutorial announcement ?
<G2> nope
<G2> on what list?
<G2> extras?
<stickster> Yes... was that on devel?
<elliss> Dax Kelson/Guru Labs fedora-devel
<G2> ah, yes
<G2> That guys is really good.
<G2> I really loved his review when RH9 came out.
<stickster> Plus he has a cool name... everyone here has a cool name...
Dax Kelson, Private Eye... Karsten Wade, Private Eye... I want a new
name, wahh!
<G2> before RH bombed on it's customers ;-)
<G2> sorry
<G2> ha.
* G2 waits for the slap
<tcf> going back to agenda item #3 ;-)
<tcf>  we already talked a bit about "writers assignment improvements"
-- consolidating self intros and emailing individuals
<stickster> Wish that tutorial wasn't on CC license...
<stickster> tcf: thank you
<G2> tcf: yes.
<stickster> tcf: Plus we've been trying to make sure at every turn we
are keeping entry barriers low... major motivator for new work on Doc
Guide and associated tutorial
<tcf> agreed
<tcf> what about tracking of open docs?
<tcf> we have the bugzilla tracker and the wiki page that links back to
bugzilla with the list of docs in progress
<G2> stickster: I never got much interest for authors on fedoraforum.
I'll try again tomorrow
<stickster> G2: *nod*
<tcf> is there a more efficient way to keep track of their progress?
<elliss> G2: Try using NewWriters page
<elliss> It's written to be very clear
<elliss> and step by step
<G2> elliss: Pointing to that instead of my old link. Yes.
<tcf> right, the NewWriters page helps those interested in starting to
participate
<elliss> Yes
<tcf> but how do we keep track of docs being written so they don't
become stale
<elliss> I feel that we don't communicate what we want well
<stickster> Karsten made a good point earlier, which was consolidation
of wiki pages... we want to try and do that wherever possible to
minimize the number of jumps it takes for anyone to find info
<elliss> I think the Wiki is really a Band-Aid
<elliss> It's easier to keep throwing stuff there
<stickster> elliss: I agree... the Doc Guide should eventually fill a
lot of the needs the Wiki is taking care of right now
<elliss> Yep
<G2> What about a competition?
<stickster> elliss: Just don't worry about that slipping off radar, it
is square in the sights  ;-)
<elliss> OK.  But I know that it'll take a while to shake out
<tcf> I was just thinking the same thing, wiki is easy to create, but
without a TOC like the doc guide, it can be hard to find the right info
<stickster> After IG makes it through review -- Doc Guide, I am coming
for you  :-D
<G2> Like some prizes for an article, of any length?
<G2> Just to drum up interest?
<tcf> I've been trying to go through all our new wiki pages, but I'm not
even sure if I've read all of them with a sequential order
<stickster> If we had some corporate sponsorship maybe there would be
something worth giving away
<elliss> G2: I suggested a Docs Day
<G2> Just a thought.
<stickster> tcf: Exactly
<elliss> That's how I started
<G2> elliss: yeah.
<G2> stickster: what would bea good prize?
<stickster> We could give away our extra dangling prepositions
<elliss> FWIW, check out GNOME bounties
<stickster> Or a gerund or two, I never use mine
<elliss> Mixed opinions on how well it worked
<megacoder> I've been interviewing around and making the pitch for some
corporate sponsorship. Nothing yet.
<tcf> elliss: I'll talk to gdk and quaid about that
<tcf> elliss: I'm been talking to gdk about that very subject
<elliss> tcf: Docs day ?
<elliss> or bounties
<G2> I could get one of us on lugradio.org to spread the word. Aide is
hot on Fedora
<elliss> g2: Very good idea
<tcf> trying to reward active fedora contributors either through
bounties or prizes
<stickster> Who's paying the bounty?
<G2> Ade rather
<G2> elliss: do you hear my intereview on it?
<elliss> G2: No DSL till tommorrow
<elliss> Dial-up downloads suck
<tcf> anyway, back to agenda #3: if someone says "I want to write a doc
about FOO," we've been pointing them to the tracker to see if someone
else has already claimed it, but what if someone claimed it and has
abandoned it?
<stickster> back on the agenda, plesae
<G2> stickster: yes, sorry
<stickster> G2: 'sok
<tcf> the fedora translation team has a great progress page since po
files are always changing
<tcf> we need something like that -- a page that shows each doc in
progress and it's status
<elliss> tcf: I think that Bugzilla doesn't seem to fit with a bug per
doc
<tcf> I had one for our internal docs when I was in docs, and I asked
each writer to be responsible for updating it
<G2> tcf: What about a script that pumps out an e-mail every twos weeks
or something asking how they are getting on?
<tcf> elliss: exactly
<elliss> Packages have modules...
<elliss> Rather than just one bug
<tcf> G2: possibly, but I was thinking somethine more simple
<stickster> tcf: Now *that* is what the wiki would be good for... things
that are OK to be thrown away over time
<elliss> tcf: +1
<tcf> if you sign up for a doc, you must go to a Wiki page and update
your status every 2 weeks
<tcf> it could have a last modified date
<G2> tcf: yes.
<elliss> Would CVS logs work as an alternative ?
<stickster> Doesn't CVS logging do that?
<tcf> and if that date is older than 2 months and you haven't made
significant progress, someone else can take the topic if you don't
respond after a week
<stickster> elliss: jinx
<elliss> Yep - no commits for a month = dead doc
<tcf> yes, cvs log would do the trick
<stickster> bingo
<tcf> can we pull those in automatically from wiki?
<elliss> Would the PHP Website be more flexible
<stickster> I'm thinking that the CVS log tells the story... diffs do go
to the commits list already, after all
<stickster> Let's not make a new tool if we can better use the existing
one(s)
<tcf> stickster: true
<tcf> can someone researching pulling cvs logs into a webpage (either
wiki or php or html)
<tcf> everyone don't volunteer all at once ;-)
<stickster> For that matter, someone could just write a local script
that checked a list of modules for cvs history
<stickster> megacoder is big on scripts apparently
<megacoder> The problem with using CVS is that you have separate logs
for every file.  Scanning the ML archives might be better.
<stickster> :-)
<stickster> megacoder: good point
<G2> stickster: true. Don't reinvent the wheel
<tcf> megacoder: yes, good point
<elliss> Google says ViewCVs does reports
<elliss> If you configure it
<tcf> (btw, I have to leave in 4 mins)
<stickster> We don't have a ViewCVS yet, but perhaps quaid or tcf could
get with sopwith to request one
<tcf> stickster: I'll ask sopwith about it
* tcf sends email
<stickster> There's only Core and Extras listed on the web portal at
f.r.c
<stickster> Great, we're at #3/#4 now
<stickster> tcf: rawk!
<stickster> Have we covered #3 sufficiently then?
<tcf> stickster: I think so
<elliss> Yes
<tcf> stickster: if we can figure out the status page, I think that
would be huge
<G2> Sorry, got to go. I'll get my task done tomorrow. Night all.
<tcf> stickster: which page?
<elliss> Night
<tcf> G2: night
<stickster> Anyone have "remainders"?
<stickster> G2: night
<megacoder> The "schedule" page that I am copying and pasting from the
Extras scheduile.
<stickster> tcf: http://cvs.fedora.redhat.com/
<tcf> did someone log this so it can be posted?
* megacoder pulls big red handles above his seat and goes right through
the canopy.
<stickster> I log it all, but quaid is too
<-- megacoder has quit ("I worship His Shadow")
<stickster> OK, we'll depend on quaid to thresh the notes then and send
to list...
<stickster> That's what he gets for leaving early
<stickster> :-)
<stickster> tcf: have a nice evening
<tcf> stickster: I'll get that page fixed
<stickster> cool?
<tcf> stickster: you too!
<tcf> shall we say the meeting is over so we can all go home/play with
our children?
<stickster> All right then, shall I call it?
<stickster> </meeting>

-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
                       Red Hat SELinux Guide
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/
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