From kwade at redhat.com Tue Nov 1 22:07:48 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:07:48 -0800 Subject: meeting 8 November Message-ID: <1130882868.26414.43.camel@erato.phig.org> I will likely be unavailable for our meeting next week, as I'm in Raleigh and doing workshops throughout that day. If you want to meet without me, just use the FedoraDocsSchedule as reference. If you don't, let's decide soonest to cancel. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 00:33:16 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:33:16 -0500 Subject: meeting 8 November In-Reply-To: <1130882868.26414.43.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1130882868.26414.43.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1130891596.3199.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Whoops, this should have gone to the whole list: On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 14:07 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > I will likely be unavailable for our meeting next week, as I'm in > Raleigh and doing workshops throughout that day. > > If you want to meet without me, just use the FedoraDocsSchedule as > reference. > > If you don't, let's decide soonest to cancel. What with voting and my wife's book club meeting, I would have to work really hard to squeeze the meeting in anyway. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 14:37:55 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 09:37:55 -0500 Subject: Following convention Message-ID: <1131892675.4621.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> This list should munge reply-to headers like all the other Fedora lists. Not doing so is a real PITA. I personally like *not* munging them, but what I *hate* is having to remember that this list is an exception. Let's please follow the convention of all the other Fedora lists. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Nov 14 12:46:26 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 04:46:26 -0800 Subject: Following convention In-Reply-To: <1131892675.4621.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1131892675.4621.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1131972386.17318.24.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-11-13 at 09:37 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > This list should munge reply-to headers like all the other Fedora lists. > Not doing so is a real PITA. I personally like *not* munging them, but > what I *hate* is having to remember that this list is an exception. > Let's please follow the convention of all the other Fedora lists. Actually, any lists that I have created do not munge the Reply-To: header. It's obvious where my sympathies lie. That said, I make it a policy of going with the consensus. If that is the consensus here, I'll change it. See, it's a problem when we let our better idea be consumed by a lesser idea, just because it's the way that everyone else does it. Is this a silly line-in-the-sand to draw? Curious of everyone's opinion. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Tue Nov 15 22:31:39 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 22:31:39 +0000 Subject: IRC Log FDSCo 15 Nov 2005 Message-ID: <1132093900.2812.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> (21:13:54) quaid: (21:14:00) stickster: Oh, I was going to say Salma Hayek, but that's *SO* much more interesting ;-D (21:15:49) stickster: Hi everybody, including the recently deceased (21:16:18) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule (21:17:54) quaid: sorry, back to back meetings for hours now (21:18:05) quaid: the back-up of tasks is killing me :) (21:18:33) quaid: so, pardon me if I just roll down the list of tasks here ... (21:18:47) quaid: I don't have any update on the Java needs, I have to push some people on that (21:20:43) G2: hI all (21:21:15) quaid: howdy (21:21:20) stickster: hi G2 (21:21:38) G2: What's been happing over the past 2 weeks then (21:22:11) quaid: stickster: Sopwith wants a single script he can run that will build all of our stuff from CVS; is that easy enough? Can you write that and put it in docs-common/bin ? (21:23:05) quaid: that is what is holding up the DocsRawhide (21:24:16) stickster: Hmm (21:24:36) stickster: Well it would have to have some sort of declaration at the top for which docs are to be built, but I suppose that's not too hard (21:24:59) Sopwith: I am working on getting shell accounts set up, so you may be able to do the entire thing by yourself by the time I'm finished. (21:25:07) ***Sopwith works diligently to enable others to do the work for him. ;) (21:25:26) quaid: ah! (21:25:26) stickster: commendable, sir (21:25:31) quaid: that's what that was about (21:26:47) quaid: let's see then ... (21:27:20) quaid: Sopwith: well, our script would be in CVS, or are you suggesting we can do the DocsRawhide stuff ourselves? (21:27:51) Sopwith: I'm suggesting it's quite possible, yes, but let's get the script written first and then we can touch base. (21:27:56) quaid: ok (21:28:13) quaid: stickster: sound ok? (21:28:21) quaid: or shall we ask Tommy if he can? (21:28:54) quaid: meanwhile ... moving on in parallel (21:29:15) quaid: last week I got reminded of the power of personal selling to make something successful. (21:29:36) quaid: I'm wondering what you all think about reinvigorating our one-to-one connections with people who have self-intro'd. (21:29:56) quaid: considering the short hands today, perhaps a discussion on-list? (21:30:25) elliss: Yes. (21:30:28) stickster: Yes, with the suggestion that everyone "claim" some contributors by putting their mark next to the contributors' names on a wiki page (21:30:30) G2: Yes. (21:30:39) G2: I think the list is up2date (21:31:28) elliss: It may be a good idea to co-ordinate what we want to say, though. (21:31:38) stickster: G2: yes, you were pretty darn diligent about it, and caught up quickly when needed (21:31:50) stickster: there was something in the archives methinks (21:32:11) stickster: It was floated, approved (or at least nothing negative came up), and then promptly forgotten (21:32:19) stickster: in the rush of other things certainly (21:32:48) quaid: ok, I am working on a msg to the list to reinvigorate (21:32:56) G2: Guys. (21:32:57) quaid: I think we decided to see what an email blast would do (21:33:06) G2: The list is BIG (21:33:09) quaid: and the think I learned recently is, the email blast is cheap to do, and everyone knows that. (21:33:14) stickster: G2: ? (21:33:20) G2: If we can get just a 1/4 of them to actually move on their offer (21:33:28) G2: We will have a huge team (21:33:58) quaid: yep (21:34:06) quaid: still though, trans kicks everyone's but (21:34:13) quaid: Sarah said last week almost 3000 contributors (21:34:22) elliss: I can't see anything in my fdsco archive on this (21:34:46) quaid: we'll eventually need to get into the kinds of tools they use in trans, e.g. (21:34:54) elliss: Did we agree some text, or just to send a mail ? (21:34:58) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors (21:35:06) quaid: elliss: I'll propose some text you can customize (21:36:27) mrj left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (21:36:49) quaid: ok, that will come to the list in a few minutes (21:36:53) ***quaid stops writing and continues meeting (21:37:03) BobJensen: lol (21:37:10) quaid: ooh ooh (21:37:13) quaid: the next one is cool (21:37:32) ***quaid looks for URL (21:38:38) quaid: http://wiki.linux.duke.edu/TestDB (21:38:53) quaid: I'm also doing some tests at http://wiki.linux.duke.edu/DocbookTest (21:39:16) quaid: it's straight XML with a #format docbook header (21:39:26) quaid: immediately I ran into challenges (21:39:27) quaid: entities (21:39:44) quaid: the xslt processor barfs when it can't expand the entities (21:40:07) quaid: I am trying to figure out how to do it elegantly with the entities as separate Wiki files that get called in, but I don't have this figure out yet. (21:40:17) quaid: but it's a further step, anyway (21:40:40) stickster: Pretty cool... so DB could be imported straight to the Wiki and ACL'd? (21:40:53) stickster: Or not (21:41:02) quaid: yeah (21:41:08) quaid: it's the two-way street that I want to figure out (21:41:35) quaid: we need this functionality internally, and I'm trying to convince all the right people to join efforts with fp.org (21:41:41) elliss: You may have to twiddle the Python code to get multi-page documents (21:41:52) quaid: it's not as quick and dirty as the Doc-Book Wiki stuff, but it's the Right Way (21:42:15) quaid: elliss: yes, I expect we'll have to patch further and often run ahead of the upstream. (21:42:46) G2: You guys heard of AxKit (21:42:51) quaid: nope (21:43:08) G2: http://axkit.org/ (21:43:15) G2: Just had a new release (21:43:29) stickster: AxKit relies on XML source, right? (21:43:48) G2: aye. (21:43:52) stickster: I thought we were aiming for people being able to contribute in wikispeak, and have some conversion done *to* XML, maybe before storage (21:44:07) stickster: Or let the user set a pref for which way they prefer to write? (21:44:08) stickster: Dunno (21:44:17) quaid: flexibility is good (21:44:27) quaid: but contribute in wikispeak, yeah, that is key (21:44:43) stickster: Right, trying to remember LBE (low barrier to entry) (21:44:54) G2: yeah. i tmight be just a case of sacrificing some formatting just now (21:44:59) quaid: I didn't discourage skvidal however :) (21:45:24) elliss: G2: Yes. (21:45:40) quaid: the Wiki2XML works, in one direction only, and now it's parsing direction from XML to Wiki, so that's another piece. (21:45:51) elliss: MoinMoin wikispeak won't map to DocBook (21:45:53) quaid: Wiki is not our formatted output (21:46:04) elliss: Except at a very simplistic level (21:46:28) BobJensen: Wiki scares a lot of people (21:46:38) quaid: elliss: are we going to lose something for every translation, even if people only change content and not markup details? (21:46:49) quaid: BobJensen: jiminey! what more can we do? :) (21:47:05) stickster: Yeah, we've been through this exhaustively already (21:47:16) quaid: right now we want writers who can use a Wiki (21:47:17) stickster: time to pull a gregdek and say, let's move forward (21:47:20) BobJensen: quaid: the whole wiki formatting is just odd but it works (21:47:52) quaid: BobJensen: I'm not a big fan at'all, well documented fact that, but it's what the people seem to want. (21:48:03) elliss: I don't think that we can't produce a complete doc in Wikispeak, just the text (21:48:07) quaid: and if we can get developers contributing that much more because it's easier ... so be it. (21:48:18) BobJensen: quaid: I agree, did not mean to derail things (21:48:32) quaid: well,it's a point :) (21:48:42) quaid: elliss: how about for 'just edits' (21:48:56) quaid: like, a feature that lets you pull a single page and it's entities to edit,then puts it back (21:49:07) quaid: v. having an entire book exist as a real, all-the-time Wiki structure (21:49:17) elliss: The problem is that formatting won't map, nor links (21:49:43) quaid: I really need to get an instance of D-B Wiki running to see how it handles this stuff. (21:49:44) BobJensen: Using the CMS system I have for FedoraLinks.org the user if presented with a OOo writer interface (21:49:53) BobJensen: s/if/is (21:50:15) quaid: OO.org has some traction, yes, and should be another choice (21:50:44) G2: openoffice? (21:50:55) elliss: Yes. (21:51:04) elliss: There's a page on the Wiki (21:51:33) quaid: some sort of Web based lock file in module, download, edit, upload, unlock (21:51:34) elliss: But like Wiki you have to beat up the results to get DocBook as we would like it (21:51:43) quaid: edit = use your fave tool, OO.org, Emacs, etc. (21:51:45) BobJensen: Sonar_Guy and are of the opinon, get us the content and we will help submit it no matter how big or small (21:51:49) elliss: E.g. words replaced by entities (21:52:39) elliss: Bob: our big problem is getting two-way (21:53:06) BobJensen: elliss: I understand that (21:53:51) quaid: oh, one more thing to discuss before we go (21:54:08) quaid: some marketing folks are seriously redoing all the content on f.r.c, and cross-comparing to fp.o (21:54:09) quaid: this week (21:54:34) quaid: this may accelerate the move from f.r.c to fp.o, running the same CVS to PHP back-end somehow. (21:54:36) stickster: I assume that's one of the reasons for the DB->wiki presentation thingie (21:54:38) quaid: I need to talk with Sopwith about that (21:55:11) quaid: anyway, I'm helping get content changes posted to f.r.c than passing all that off for trans. (21:55:35) quaid: this work can happen in parallel whilst we discuss moving from f.r.c to fp.o (21:57:01) stickster: quaid: Abour relnotes publishing (21:57:26) G2: I take it we've reviewed: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/DocBook_XML_export and http://www.tldp.org/wt2db/ (21:57:31) stickster: quaid: How is this normally handled? Can I just make a fc5/ dir, make html in CVS and then do the normal publishing work? (21:58:06) quaid: we are eschewing the past (21:58:10) quaid: and using tagging (21:58:15) quaid: so no, no new subdirectories (21:58:25) quaid: all is in release-notes/ now and is tagged for trans and release. (21:58:39) quaid: or are you talking about f.r.c?\ (21:58:41) quaid: sorry, you are (21:58:44) stickster: Yes, f.r.c (21:58:53) quaid: never mind ... (21:59:06) quaid: yeah, just the same thing as before, I reckon , unless it needs improving. (21:59:12) quaid: there are languages going on, too (21:59:14) stickster: I'm looking at fedora-cvs/web/html/doc/release-notes/ (21:59:18) BobJensen: My Xorg Beat is hitting rawhide tomorrow barring any breakages where do I submit the release notes doc or did I miss the deadline for test1? (21:59:38) quaid: BobJensen: you are still good, just get them in asap (21:59:46) BobJensen: quaid: will do (21:59:52) G2: brb (21:59:56) quaid: we're really holding for xorg right now across the board (22:00:10) BobJensen: that is what I thought (22:00:18) stickster: so can I just make a fc5/ dir, and then ru/ zh_CN/ etc.? (22:00:49) quaid: sorry, is that what we did for fc4? (22:00:50) quaid: then, yeah (22:01:10) quaid: no one has complained about the structure (22:01:45) BobJensen: http://mharris.ca/xorg-modular/xorg-modularization.html will vanish once it reaches rawhide (22:01:45) stickster: cool (22:02:00) stickster: Just tell me what date we need to do the publish (22:02:48) quaid: publish to web is with the release, right now 21 Nov. (22:03:09) quaid: build freeze for ISO is supposed to be today, but we're making it tomorrow or another day later. (22:03:14) quaid: totally mushy right now, sorry (22:03:35) quaid: stickster: let's save the trigger pull for tomorrow night ... we still need to get changes from the Wiki, as well. (22:05:19) stickster: quaid: do you mean you need help turning wiki beat notes into relnotes? (22:05:43) quaid: oh, no, not neccesarily ... (22:05:51) quaid: I think nman64's stuff still works for now (22:06:01) quaid: just letting you know when we need to have stuff ready by for whatever, that's all (22:06:13) quaid: and to say, if you were worried like I was about freezing for ISO today ... don't be :) (22:06:37) quaid: last items from me : (22:06:56) quaid: I gave a verbal pledge to Sarah Wang on behalf of FDP for Fedora Trans that our freezes will never defrost. (22:07:04) stickster: I wasn't that worried... but I am out of it... I have been very much overscheduled with other commitments and have had very little time for FP work lately (22:07:06) quaid: they get that all the time from devel, and we need to stomp on that idea. (22:07:39) quaid: otherwise, we're all doing OK with the current temp process. (22:07:46) quaid: and that's all of our priority 1 items (22:07:55) quaid: AOB? (22:07:56) quaid: or time? (22:08:27) G2: I was trying to get my Sprog and supporting RPMs ready for that freeze too. But Sprog has suddenly developed bugs (22:09:44) stickster: Vote (22:09:55) G2: yup (22:09:56) elliss: (22:10:20) quaid: -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Nov 15 23:54:19 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:54:19 -0800 Subject: contacting self-intro'd people Message-ID: <1132098859.10509.95.camel@erato.phig.org> I want to suggest again that we divide up and contact all the people who have self-intro'd for the project. Just a generic set of, Hi, how are you, anything we can do to help your writing-for-Fedora experience. When you write to someone, you can put your initials/name/WikiName next to the person on this page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors How about this as some draft text you can personalize: ## begin Hi Foo: I'm contacting you on behalf of the Fedora Documentation Project. Thanks again for your self-introduction and interest in Fedora content. What can we do to help your writing-for-Fedora experience? We want to be sure everyone has an equal chance to participate. Here are some of the things we are working on to help: * Wiki-based writing, alongside XML * Modular release notes, puts you close to the projects you care about * Globalization of content and build systems * Automagic build system * More! Let me know if there are any questions I can answer for you. Thanks, Karsten ## fin -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Content Services Fedora Documentation Project http://www.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Nov 16 10:42:12 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:42:12 -0000 (GMT) Subject: contacting self-intro'd people In-Reply-To: <1132098859.10509.95.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1132098859.10509.95.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <49814.195.38.86.72.1132137732.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > I want to suggest again that we divide up and contact all the people who > have self-intro'd for the project. Just a generic set of, Hi, how are > you, anything we can do to help your writing-for-Fedora experience. > > When you write to someone, you can put your initials/name/WikiName next > to the person on this page: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors > There's about 50 on that list, which includes us. So say about 40. Shall we all take about 6 each? Gavin. From kwade at redhat.com Wed Nov 16 18:18:40 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:18:40 -0800 Subject: contacting self-intro'd people In-Reply-To: <49814.195.38.86.72.1132137732.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <1132098859.10509.95.camel@erato.phig.org> <49814.195.38.86.72.1132137732.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1132165121.3572.53.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 10:42 +0000, Gavin Henry wrote: > > > I want to suggest again that we divide up and contact all the people who > > have self-intro'd for the project. Just a generic set of, Hi, how are > > you, anything we can do to help your writing-for-Fedora experience. > > > > When you write to someone, you can put your initials/name/WikiName next > > to the person on this page: > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors > > > There's about 50 on that list, which includes us. So say about 40. Shall > we all take about 6 each? Sounds good, first come gets first choice. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Content Services Fedora Documentation Project http://www.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Tue Nov 22 22:44:55 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:44:55 +0000 Subject: IRC Log FDSCo 22 Nov 2005 Message-ID: <1132699495.2888.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> (21:10:21) quaid: ok, let's rock on (21:10:53) G2: k (21:11:39) quaid: ok, my favorite subject, which I have no news on (21:11:51) quaid: ecj compiled Saxon (21:12:04) quaid: mrj: have you noticed any movement from the pushing I was trying to do? (21:12:56) quaid: yeah, it's been like that (21:12:58) quaid: no news (21:13:09) stickster: :-) (21:15:00) megacoder: no nudes is good nudes (21:16:02) quaid: OK, I'm bugging my upstream, will report back later (21:16:12) quaid: let's move on (21:16:21) ***quaid wonders if these meetings are boring now (21:16:24) quaid: not rowdy enough/ (21:16:25) quaid: ? (21:16:36) stickster: DocsRawhide seems to be working well (21:16:40) quaid: oh, cool, so what did you all think of the DocsRawhide? (21:16:52) quaid: voilas and violas (21:16:56) elliss: Very happy (21:16:59) megacoder: Made my head swim (21:17:12) quaid: it's wicked cool, I want more features :) (21:17:15) stickster: Like you said, we need something to do "on request" builds of old branches when needed, but other than that, disco (21:17:16) elliss: Did you note comment from J. Spelata (21:17:23) elliss: WRT robots.txt (21:17:25) quaid: I enjoyed that we can tweak stuff with the Makefile (21:17:37) elliss: So that Google doesn't cache the pages (21:17:40) quaid: I rolled out the ja_JP and zh_CN versions of the Installatin guide with that fix (21:17:44) quaid: oh, yeah (21:17:57) quaid: Sopwith: forgot to ask if docsRawhide is hid from l'Google? (21:18:04) stickster: Yeah, there's no robots.txt yet (21:18:26) stickster: Maybe Sopwith has ancient Chinese secret for this stuff tho' (21:18:35) megacoder: Er, no /robots.txt just means no restrictions on what robots can do, right? (21:18:42) quaid: yeah (21:19:30) quaid: hmm (21:19:43) quaid: I wonder if we could make a robots.txt be part of the build (21:19:50) quaid: so it gets picked up ... (21:19:56) quaid: anyway, does anyone know how to write one? (21:20:06) BobJensen: I do (21:20:09) megacoder: Yeah, nothing to it (21:20:26) BobJensen: quite simple and well documented (21:20:31) avatraxiom: http://www.robotstxt.org/ (21:20:37) megacoder: I've got one at http://www.megacoder.com/robots.txt if you wanna see one. (21:21:53) ***quaid is back in the conf room with the nice view (21:22:29) ***quaid tries that again (21:22:40) megacoder: Say "hi" to the receptionist for me. Tell her I'm the ex-developer course trainer and she should remember. (21:23:00) quaid: megacoder: Rose? (21:23:24) Sopwith: No, it's not hidden from google. (21:23:31) ***quaid hasn't seen hmaine, davec around today (21:23:36) megacoder: Dunno. Older lady, real nice, black hair IIRC (21:23:51) quaid: Sopwith: can we? (21:24:38) Sopwith: quaid: I think it might be to your advantage to leave it as-is. More visibility for the docs project, and users going to the latest docs if they are relevant to their search. (21:25:10) Sopwith: To me it's part of being a little more open and transparent about things. (21:25:24) quaid: I open this topic for input from the assembled. (21:26:12) stickster: Problem is the docs content is then floated in the Googlemind for ??? how long... if it's wrong, it can affect the masses negatively (21:26:16) BobJensen: the docs are changing and not part of the current sta ble releaseI say no to google (21:26:35) stickster: Besides, we have open CVS already, commits list etc. for that reason (21:26:36) megacoder: Leaving it open will require that all the content be clearly marked as DRAFT documents-in-training. (21:26:38) elliss: Well, either way there ought to be warnings "untested, break and keep both pieces, file bugs in bugzilla". (21:26:54) Sopwith: Well, yes, those markings ought to be there anyways. (21:27:07) quaid: I see there being an ethical problem with raw docs, that it is never clear they are raw, despite admonitions. Code breaks, but docs don't necc. break. (21:27:38) elliss: Use a different stylesheet. (21:27:47) Sopwith: It's open source. Release early, release often - that's what it's all about. :) (21:27:50) quaid: watermarks (21:27:53) stickster: elliss: I was just about to say that (21:27:53) stickster: :-) (21:28:22) quaid: can we make this a specific target in the Makefile, 'make draft' (21:28:26) stickster: Sopwith: yeah, but the difference is like putting all the testing stuff in something marked "Try Me!" without a rawhide warning (21:28:30) quaid: and it builds all targets, so stickster's script can call that for Sopwith's script? (21:28:37) megacoder: We can to anything if we know how. How? (21:28:49) Sopwith: quaid: Yea, if you add the 'make draft' targets, it's easy to change the script. (21:28:52) quaid: well, that's the next step (21:28:57) quaid: another stylesheet (21:29:15) ***quaid looks around for the army of interns (21:29:21) megacoder: Wait! Since it has only the HTML files, a CSS change should be all that's needed. (21:29:37) megacoder: That doesn't involve the makefile does it? (21:29:40) quaid: ok, that works for now (21:29:44) quaid: well (21:29:53) quaid: something needs to choose the build with the alt. CSS? (21:30:09) quaid: it's the same as the HTML build, diff fedora-draft.css (21:30:23) quaid: which can be a copy of the original that we start tweaking soonest (21:30:52) quaid: but ultimately, wouldn't it be nice to have a draft target that build PDF's with /DRAFT/ watermarks on it/ (21:31:01) G2: yeah. (21:31:31) elliss: I'd prefer not to allow downloads... (21:31:45) quaid: of? (21:31:53) elliss: Drafts (21:32:02) elliss: They don't expire... (21:32:08) quaid: how do you get editors to read them/ (21:32:11) quaid: ah, interesting (21:32:39) quaid: but CVS is open & etc. (21:32:55) stickster: elliss: If they're marked, what's the difference? curious (21:33:25) megacoder: We need a "tainted" flag, like the kernel. (21:33:28) elliss: What quaid said, really, about admonitions not being enough (21:33:38) elliss: A Draft could be wrong (21:33:43) elliss: and often are (21:33:50) quaid: yes, wickedly wrong (21:34:05) quaid: an intentionally incorrect draft is more dangerous and harder to detect (21:34:07) quaid: than the same in code (21:34:12) elliss: On a website we can insert feedback links (21:34:24) elliss: And make bad text magically disappear (21:34:30) quaid: nuances and promises can be written into the fabric of the words ... like ... like ... like a Clive Barker story (21:34:33) stickster: Who is going to give someone CVS access here who would intentionally screw up docs? (21:34:47) ***quaid just slipt into paranoia mode, sorry (21:34:50) stickster: I guess they could take the source and publish it elsewhere -- but can't people do that with any of our stuff? (21:34:52) quaid: stickster: forget intentional :) (21:35:06) stickster: I think the CSS "draft" marking would be totally sufficient (21:35:15) quaid: but, a compromised account (21:35:18) stickster: If we're going to open (21:35:20) stickster: oops (21:35:23) quaid: and a defacing of content at fp.o/docs (21:35:40) quaid: are two steps away as it now stands (21:36:02) quaid: what if a shoulder surfer at a cafe catches the login of a translator into CVS, etc. (21:36:12) elliss: We can fix pages on a server (21:36:13) quaid: this is why we build some level of layers, human interface (21:36:29) elliss: And packaged docs (21:36:38) elliss: Loose files are more problematic (21:36:45) stickster: I've come to think that worrying about the docs to this extent is counter-productive (21:36:58) quaid: ah, well (21:37:07) megacoder: Agreed (21:37:09) quaid: can't tell if this is a 'no carseats in front of the airbag' or (21:37:27) stickster: If we had a full suite of pristine, beautiful docs that everyone loved and cherished, this would be worth while to spin our wheels on (21:37:31) quaid: 'be careful of the twigs, you might sprain your ankle' (21:37:37) BobJensen: I still say block google to reduce public use of the rawhide docs, those that come looking would be ok but allowing google is like advertising (21:37:43) stickster: quaid: disco on #2, methinks (21:37:46) quaid: stickster: our job is to assume we are going to have that (21:37:53) megacoder: Meddle not in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger (21:38:35) quaid: "Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and chewy and taste good with ketchup." (21:39:14) quaid: consensus about robots.txt for raw docs? (21:39:37) quaid: +1 (21:39:44) elliss: Yes, until we have stylesheet/big warning signs on the top page (21:39:55) megacoder: User-agent: * // Disallow: / (21:40:04) stickster: megacoder: :-) (21:40:37) quaid: any nays? (21:40:42) stickster: elliss is right, until we have CSS change (21:40:57) elliss: I would be for it after that (21:41:03) quaid: Sopwith: can you put a full disallow in the root of /docs on webtest and going forward, until we have at least a fedora-draft.css in place? (21:41:29) quaid: if we choose to post PDFs, we need to at least have a draft stylesheet for that _first_ (21:42:13) stickster: right-o (21:42:39) quaid: megacoder: I forgot to ask, have you heard anything about the xmlto changes to support ... Saxon iirc (21:42:43) elliss: I'd rather use packages than individual PDFs if possible (21:42:44) ***quaid is slow (21:42:52) elliss: So that we can obsolete them (21:42:59) megacoder: No feedback from T Waugh, if that's what you mean. (21:43:15) quaid: ok (21:43:16) stickster: elliss: TR and I are working on that issue (21:43:20) quaid: couldn't remember what the next step was on that (21:43:25) stickster: It will happen (21:43:29) elliss: stickster: I know (21:43:29) quaid: aside about the packaging (21:43:44) quaid: sorry we haven't had any word from the @redhat.com folks, who I asked to weigh in with thoughts about packaging. (21:43:54) quaid: same hurdles, maybe the same packages (one day), so it makes sense to coordinate now (21:44:15) stickster: To do automated builds with meaningful package headers (as well as content) we need certain tools to work right (21:44:18) quaid: so, if you see jlaska or mrj when they are tackleable, I'd appreciate you helping them remain in the loop. (21:44:29) quaid: stickster: which ones? (21:44:30) stickster: We are piecing together that puzzle (21:44:35) quaid: ok (21:44:41) stickster: We are now working on this xmlstarlet issue (21:44:45) stickster: Hope to have it in FE shortly (21:45:14) stickster: Then it comes down to a package design problem, we're probably 40% there at least in terms of clarifying the issue (21:45:30) ***quaid notices that the branching docs that stickster did for the wiki cover a priority three item that's been floating. (21:45:31) stickster: We are trying to do it on list, so there's nothing keeping people from pitching in (21:45:52) stickster: kudos to ignacio for allowing us to step in to help with xmlstarlet (21:45:57) quaid: stickster: I know, sorry about the silence from this side of the playground (21:46:10) stickster: 's OK, didn't mean anyone in particular :-) (21:46:31) quaid: busy-ness comes in waves around ol' Red Hat, it seems (21:46:43) quaid: ok, I'm adding a new priority 1 item about the packaging (21:47:15) stickster: I think it's on the list at P2 now, you may be able to move it up (21:47:39) stickster: I think maybe a Wiki page on the issue would help us keep the ducks in a row -- I will try and put something up shortly when I get a Round Tuit (21:47:44) quaid: ah, ok (21:47:57) ***quaid is looking in wiki edit mode (21:48:08) quaid: I cannot believe I am actually trying to help _more_ people use a wiki interface (21:48:25) quaid: "I'm an environmentalist and a petroleum engineer." (21:48:37) BobJensen: lol (21:48:43) Sonar_Guy: hehe (21:49:13) megacoder: "I'm with the Gary Glitter Babysitting Service." (21:49:21) stickster: come to the dark side, quaid (21:49:28) stickster: *everybody's* doing it (21:49:35) stickster: It will make you feeeeel goooooood.... (21:49:42) ***quaid mainlines some crude (21:49:59) avatraxiom: lol (21:50:26) G2: dear me (21:50:44) stickster: "quaid roared... and he rampaged... and he got bloody satisfaction... and when he arrives at his final destination, he is going to kill the wiki." (21:51:14) BobJensen: and EvilBob will back him (21:51:16) ***stickster smacks self to stop the madness (21:51:24) quaid: G2: please don't be shocked, I can explain it all ... I'm just from California, see ... (21:52:24) quaid: ok, task moved up in priority (21:52:30) quaid: I set a 'FC5 test2?" date for it (21:53:30) quaid: so, I have to pause to say again, congrats on the release notes beats (21:54:08) quaid: I was totally stoked when I took "just an hour honey" on Saturday morning, and that was really true. (21:56:33) quaid: so, uh (21:56:40) quaid: I have a question (21:56:45) elliss: Will the translations ship with test1 ISOs ? (21:56:51) quaid: \yes (21:56:54) elliss: Cool (21:56:56) ***quaid holds his question (21:57:01) quaid: I mean, aiui :) (21:57:34) quaid: I sent off the "go ahead, use make html-nochunks" to Sopwith on Saturday (21:57:46) quaid: so the question (21:57:58) G2: go on (21:58:08) quaid: how long do we want to hold open the Wiki version of the release notes before final release of a test or GA? (21:58:22) quaid: in our schedule, it shows 24 hours before the release, we take a snapshot (21:58:36) quaid: that to me means, we are promising all beat writers that they have that long to get changes in (21:58:56) quaid: which is good, mether and Bob-Laptop got changes in on Sunday, and maybe Monday, that were useful (21:59:06) quaid: crucial? no, but a test of what we can do. (21:59:39) elliss: It seems to allow little margin for problems, though (21:59:46) quaid: but it puts a strain on the scheduling with the rest of engineering, in that we need to remain totally flexible, or freeze at an arbitrary date of N-1, knowing that N could move out +Y days (22:00:12) quaid: elliss: true, and right now the conversion is manual therefore a total PITA in the time frame (22:00:20) quaid: but if it's worth it, I'll continue to do it (22:00:38) ***quaid pauses to listen (22:00:58) quaid: I'm about to get swooped into a meeting, but if anyone wants to continue along these lines (22:01:09) elliss: AIUI, There were X.org until the last minute (22:01:10) stickster: I've gotta take a powder (22:01:19) G2: how long does it take? (22:01:29) stickster: Good meeting, bye all (22:01:38) BobJensen: elliss, Yes getting the corerect information was not as esay as I expected (22:01:40) quaid: -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Nov 23 06:51:58 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:51:58 -0600 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available Message-ID: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Couldn't sleep so I whipped up a candidate CSS mangle to watermark each HTML page with the text: DRAFT Not for reference. in grey, at a 45o angle. No PDF solution yet, but then we don't need one yet. You can view an example at: http://www.MegaCoder.com/sudo-tutorial/sudo-tutorial-en/ Let me know what you think. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Nov 23 09:11:16 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:11:16 +0000 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available In-Reply-To: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <43843234.70701@suretecsystems.com> > Couldn't sleep so I whipped up a candidate CSS mangle to watermark > each HTML page with the text: > > DRAFT > Not for reference. > > in grey, at a 45o angle. No PDF solution yet, but then we don't need > one yet. > > You can view an example at: > > http://www.MegaCoder.com/sudo-tutorial/sudo-tutorial-en/ > > Let me know what you think. Spot on!!! ;-) > > Cheers > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list > From stuart at elsn.org Wed Nov 23 09:50:39 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:50:39 +0000 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available In-Reply-To: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1132739439.24601.248165501@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:51:58 -0600, "Tommy Reynolds" said: > Couldn't sleep so I whipped up a candidate CSS mangle to watermark > each HTML page with the text: > > DRAFT > Not for reference. > > in grey, at a 45o angle. No PDF solution yet, but then we don't need > one yet. > > You can view an example at: > > http://www.MegaCoder.com/sudo-tutorial/sudo-tutorial-en/ > > Let me know what you think. > It looks great. Does it show on printouts ? Just did a quick print preview in Firefox and IE6 and the watermark isn't visible, though it displays fine in regular modes. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Nov 23 09:58:30 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:58:30 -0600 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available In-Reply-To: <1132739439.24601.248165501@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132739439.24601.248165501@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20051123035830.271abc26.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Stuart Ellis" , spake thus: > Does it show on printouts ? Just did a quick print preview in Firefox > and IE6 and the watermark isn't visible, though it displays fine in > regular modes. Background images are not shown by default. In Firefox, go to FILE > Page Setup to find a checkbox to turn it on. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stuart at elsn.org Wed Nov 23 11:54:35 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:54:35 +0000 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available In-Reply-To: <20051123035830.271abc26.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132739439.24601.248165501@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20051123035830.271abc26.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1132746875.756.248172232@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:58:30 -0600, "Tommy Reynolds" said: > Uttered "Stuart Ellis" , spake thus: > > > Does it show on printouts ? Just did a quick print preview in Firefox > > and IE6 and the watermark isn't visible, though it displays fine in > > regular modes. > > Background images are not shown by default. In Firefox, go to FILE > > Page Setup to find a checkbox to turn it on. D'oh. It may be better to incorporate the draft mark/warning into the main pages, then, in addition to anything else (we've used DocBook entities for this before). We could tweak the colours in the stylesheet, but that would only work for on-screen display and colour printers as well. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Nov 23 13:45:15 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 07:45:15 -0600 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available In-Reply-To: <1132746875.756.248172232@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132739439.24601.248165501@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20051123035830.271abc26.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132746875.756.248172232@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20051123074515.fc6d72b7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered "Stuart Ellis" , spake thus: > It may be better to incorporate the draft mark/warning into the main > pages, then, in addition to anything else (we've used DocBook entities > for this before). We could tweak the colours in the stylesheet, but that > would only work for on-screen display and colour printers as well. That seems a bit paraniod for me. The goal was just to prevent the Google bots from offering these working copies as query results and confusing the innocent. It's too much trouble to prevent a d**m fool from printing out what they shouldn't. Let them waste their time along with their paper; we've got real work to do. It's good enough for me. I can be bribed ;-) Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 15:03:50 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:03:50 -0500 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available In-Reply-To: <20051123074515.fc6d72b7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132739439.24601.248165501@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20051123035830.271abc26.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132746875.756.248172232@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20051123074515.fc6d72b7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1132758230.2996.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 07:45 -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Stuart Ellis" , spake thus: > > > It may be better to incorporate the draft mark/warning into the main > > pages, then, in addition to anything else (we've used DocBook entities > > for this before). We could tweak the colours in the stylesheet, but that > > would only work for on-screen display and colour printers as well. > > That seems a bit paraniod for me. The goal was just to prevent the > Google bots from offering these working copies as query results and > confusing the innocent. It's too much trouble to prevent a d**m fool > from printing out what they shouldn't. Let them waste their time along > with their paper; we've got real work to do. > > It's good enough for me. I can be bribed ;-) I'm pretty sure I agree... if someone is bound and determined to be an idjit, we can't stop him. Opening up your browser, seeing the "DRAFT, stop before we eat your children," and then printing it out and pretending all's right with the world qualified as "idjit" in my book. The only other thing I could suggest would be protecting the document from printing, but that also seems like it might be a case of diminishing returns. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Nov 23 16:21:23 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:21:23 -0800 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available In-Reply-To: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1132762883.935.191.camel@erato.phig.org> Sorry for the hijack, but I'm getting bounces for Tommy, mx record problem? This has caused his f-docs-commits account to go on hold for excessive bounces. Anyone know another route to let Tommy know of this problem? Hopefully this message gets through somehow ... because obviously some are getting through. Hmm ... The original message was received at Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:10:31 -0500 from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 5.1.2 ... Host unknown (Name server: mx.megacoder.com.: host not found) On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 00:51 -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Couldn't sleep so I whipped up a candidate CSS mangle to watermark > each HTML page with the text: > > DRAFT > Not for reference. > > in grey, at a 45o angle. No PDF solution yet, but then we don't need > one yet. > > You can view an example at: > > http://www.MegaCoder.com/sudo-tutorial/sudo-tutorial-en/ > > Let me know what you think. > > Cheers > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Content Services Fedora Documentation Project http://www.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Wed Nov 23 16:37:34 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:37:34 +0000 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available In-Reply-To: <1132758230.2996.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132739439.24601.248165501@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20051123035830.271abc26.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132746875.756.248172232@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20051123074515.fc6d72b7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132758230.2996.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1132763854.25986.248193037@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:03:50 -0500, "Paul W. Frields" said: > On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 07:45 -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > > Uttered "Stuart Ellis" , spake thus: > > > > > It may be better to incorporate the draft mark/warning into the main > > > pages, then, in addition to anything else (we've used DocBook entities > > > for this before). We could tweak the colours in the stylesheet, but that > > > would only work for on-screen display and colour printers as well. > > > > That seems a bit paraniod for me. The goal was just to prevent the > > Google bots from offering these working copies as query results and > > confusing the innocent. It's too much trouble to prevent a d**m fool > > from printing out what they shouldn't. Let them waste their time along > > with their paper; we've got real work to do. > > > > It's good enough for me. I can be bribed ;-) > > I'm pretty sure I agree... if someone is bound and determined to be an > idjit, we can't stop him. Opening up your browser, seeing the "DRAFT, > stop before we eat your children," and then printing it out and > pretending all's right with the world qualified as "idjit" in my book. Yeah, we are getting towards Darwin Award candidate level. The worst case that I had in mind was some well-meaning person doing prints from Rawhide HTML or PDF and then handing them out to class/LUG/whatever, but as Paul says, they really ought to be able to take the gentle hint. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Nov 23 16:38:01 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:38:01 -0600 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available In-Reply-To: <1132762883.935.191.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132762883.935.191.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20051123103801.27408092.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > Sorry for the hijack, but I'm getting bounces for Tommy, mx record > problem? This has caused his f-docs-commits account to go on hold for > excessive bounces. > > Anyone know another route to let Tommy know of this problem? Hopefully > this message gets through somehow ... because obviously some are getting > through. Hmm ... Well, I saw that.. The folks at directnic.com are hosting the DNS for me. Maybe they're hiccuping at couple of days early. Thanks for heads-up. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Nov 23 16:57:11 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:57:11 -0600 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available In-Reply-To: <1132762883.935.191.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132762883.935.191.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20051123105711.7c0e087f.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > Anyone know another route to let Tommy know of this problem? tommyreynolds at yahoo.com Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sun Nov 27 04:23:52 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:23:52 -0800 Subject: DRAFT stylesheet (HTML/CSS) Available In-Reply-To: <20051123074515.fc6d72b7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20051123005158.6fff72c8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132739439.24601.248165501@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20051123035830.271abc26.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <1132746875.756.248172232@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20051123074515.fc6d72b7.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1133065433.935.236.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 07:45 -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered "Stuart Ellis" , spake thus: > > > It may be better to incorporate the draft mark/warning into the main > > pages, then, in addition to anything else (we've used DocBook entities > > for this before). We could tweak the colours in the stylesheet, but that > > would only work for on-screen display and colour printers as well. > > That seems a bit paraniod for me. The goal was just to prevent the > Google bots from offering these working copies as query results and > confusing the innocent. It's too much trouble to prevent a d**m fool > from printing out what they shouldn't. Let them waste their time along > with their paper; we've got real work to do. > > It's good enough for me. +1 I dig it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Content Services Fedora Documentation Project http://www.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Tue Nov 29 22:23:51 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:23:51 +0000 Subject: IRC Log FDSCo Meeting 29 Nov 2005 Message-ID: <1133303032.3511.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> (21:07:00) quaid: (21:07:03) quaid: hi all (21:07:08) stickster: Hi quaid! (21:07:11) Bob-Laptop: Hi quaid (21:07:14) G2: Hi (21:07:49) stickster: elliss is here, q.v. above... that's quorum! (21:08:28) Bob-Laptop: Hi G2 (21:08:30) megacoder: I'm free (21:09:24) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule (21:09:44) quaid: lessee ... (21:10:01) quaid: on the first item, I did hear of some good movement, a partner is picking up some of the JPEG library problems (21:10:14) quaid: still doesn't sound like enough will land in FC5 test cycle :( (21:11:49) stickster: Maybe we should scootch that down in the P1 tasks a little since it's a bit demoralizing to see only a little traction at a time on the first item every week ;-D (21:12:45) G2: Hi Bob-Laptop (21:13:00) stickster: DocsRawhide is up though, that's a good thing (21:14:07) stickster: Has Elliot seen the draft.css change that megacoder did? (21:14:14) quaid: probably not (21:14:41) elliss: It doesn't seem to be updating from CVS (21:14:45) quaid: stickster: but it's your build script, can you update it to use make draft? (21:15:14) stickster: Well, I suppose I could, if I had access to it any longer. (21:15:14) megacoder: I was wondering whether we should change the polarity on this: default to the draft CSS and then explicitly change it to production-like status. (21:15:35) elliss: Sounds like a good idea (21:15:55) stickster: No, not a bad idea at all (21:17:20) megacoder: Wait, what question just got a consensus? (21:17:33) stickster: megacoder: Yours (21:17:55) quaid: yeah, I like that too (21:17:56) megacoder: OK, I'll do that in CVS in a moment then. (21:18:05) stickster: But I think the DocsRawhide should do it as well (21:18:18) quaid: 'make production' :) (21:18:21) stickster: I don't have any access to that system, so someone who does will need to change it (21:18:27) quaid: no access? (21:18:28) megacoder: yup, me too. I mean "I, also". (21:18:30) quaid: not now or not ever? (21:18:45) quaid: neither of you? (21:18:45) stickster: not ever (21:19:11) quaid: oh ... I thought he drew from /cvs/docs/common/bin/ ? (21:19:25) quaid: so you could update there and he'd use that as the new build script (21:19:31) quaid: so you can change the target there (21:19:32) quaid: however (21:19:43) stickster: Oh... I didn't know that (21:19:44) quaid: megacoder changing default to use the draft.css does the same thing. (21:19:45) stickster: Duh (21:20:01) quaid: yeah, that's how we update the list of docs, etc., bright designer boy (21:20:03) stickster: Right (21:21:15) stickster: Except I have a bit of user interaction at the end I would have thought Elliot would remove if he put it in play... maybe he just pipes "yes y" to it (21:22:29) elliss: Perhaps not (21:22:36) elliss: It isn't running (21:22:37) stickster: Maybe that's why it's not building! :-D (jk) (21:23:01) stickster: I should try removing that... hang on (21:24:08) quaid: actually, that could be (21:24:09) stickster: k (21:24:19) quaid: elliss: I've seen it build in the past, that is, take on new content (21:24:27) elliss: Sure (21:24:40) elliss: Check Paul's Mirror tutorial though (21:24:47) elliss: And the Release Notes (21:24:49) stickster: Yeah, and it seemed to be automatic then... but maybe he put something in place at some point *afterward* to autoupdate the script (21:25:17) quaid: stickster: can you follow up with sopwith, who ain't here!, to see if something is broke? (21:25:26) stickster: sure thing (21:26:02) quaid: anything else on docsrawhide? (21:26:33) elliss: Once we're happy with it, we should advertise it (21:26:51) elliss: Fedora Announce etc. (21:26:52) quaid: thought sopwith did that already (21:26:58) quaid: he announced it there first day (21:27:06) quaid: but, yeah, we can certainly make it more lively (21:27:16) quaid: talk about it, link to it, maybe a formal announcement (21:27:17) stickster: Email sent to ELee (21:27:23) quaid: but I'm not happy with it yet (21:27:33) quaid: I want to see more than just basic HTML built (21:27:39) elliss: ? (21:27:40) quaid: tarball, at least (21:27:50) stickster: It's already getting its address floated around on the lists, so whatever needs to be done should probably be addressed sooner rather than later (21:27:50) elliss: I'm against that (21:27:57) quaid: PDF as an optional switch in the parent-xml file or something (21:28:05) quaid: elliss: I'm sorry? (21:28:14) quaid: oh, right, see (21:28:22) quaid: two different purposes here (21:28:35) quaid: I want the script to also grab according to tags (21:28:56) quaid: so we can tag and retag content as a release, and have it just updated via the autobuild functionality. (21:29:14) elliss: OK. (21:29:18) quaid: of those builds, one will be HEAD (21:29:31) quaid: and that one we can choose to not deliver tarballs, or be sure they have the draft.css in use, or whatever. (21:29:37) quaid: same with PDFs when possible. (21:29:52) elliss: So a central site for docs material ? (21:30:26) elliss: fedora.redhat.com going away AIUI (21:30:57) quaid: fp.or/docs (21:30:59) quaid: same tree, for now (21:35:08) stickster: ?? (21:37:07) quaid: f.r.c/docs -> fp.o/docs ? (21:37:32) stickster: right... just wondering where everyone disappeared to (21:37:43) Sopwith [n=sopwith at nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com] entered the room. (21:38:01) ***quaid adds the task of "preparing for transition to fp.o" (21:38:10) Sopwith: yo (21:38:16) stickster: Hey, there's the man (21:38:25) Bob-Laptop: Speak of the Devil (21:38:36) stickster: Now that's just rude Bob ;-D (21:38:39) Bob-Laptop: lol (21:38:56) G2: Hi Sopwith (21:39:02) quaid: stickster: long meeting today :) (21:39:05) stickster: Sopwith: sent you a piece of mail re: DocsRawhide... no building seems to be happening right now (21:39:07) Sopwith: stickster: I don't know if he *wants* it, but nman64 has root access to the box that builds docs rawhide. (21:39:12) stickster: Ah (21:39:16) Sopwith: I just tried running the build manually. (21:39:17) stickster: So I can bug him then ;-) (21:39:38) ***quaid is done with his call (21:39:42) Sopwith: stickster: I did have to change your script a bit - I should send it back to you :) (21:40:22) stickster: For a minute I thought we could have it pull the script, but that seems like asking for security nightmares (21:40:43) Sopwith: That too (21:41:36) stickster: nman64: If you're around, want to get in on this discussion? (21:41:39) Sopwith: There were a few messages like the following: (21:41:48) Sopwith: cp: cannot stat `translation-guide-en/*': No such file or directory (21:42:14) stickster: Hm (21:42:16) Sopwith: stickster: I really appreciate you putting that script together, though - it was exactly what was needed to get things rolling. (21:42:22) stickster: Sorry it's not better (21:42:24) Sopwith: I'll e-mail you the latest one right away. (21:42:30) stickster: I'm running it locally on my box and it seems to be OK so far (21:42:42) stickster: I'll look at the new copy and see what I can see :-) (21:43:03) megacoder: "Render draft by default" is now in CVS. (21:43:09) stickster: megacoder: bitchin (21:43:30) megacoder: See if it works for you, someone. (21:44:21) stickster: fANTASTIC (21:44:42) ***stickster fires typist but thanks megacoder (21:44:56) Sopwith: I'm more than happy to let one or two people have access to troubleshoot problems like this. Once we have the sysadmin system a bit more stabilized, it'll be easier to give out access to more people to actually do config changes. (21:45:45) stickster: Sopwith: understood (21:45:50) quaid: sweet! (21:46:02) stickster: megacoder: Now for a "make production" or something like that, right? (21:46:22) quaid: megacoder: can you send an email about the draft.css change to the list? specify how to get the new images (cvs co -d) and how to build a non-draft version, ok? (21:47:24) megacoder: OK, as soon as I figure out how best to handle the "make production" target. I'll start on the email now. (21:47:54) quaid: okey dokey (21:48:01) quaid: I'll be here to test for at least the next 3 hours (21:49:15) quaid: hmm ... we may need to tone the red down a bit (21:49:20) quaid: I can read it, but does it bother others? (21:51:17) megacoder: Changing it is OK with me. It's currently "rgb( 255, 100, 100 )" if anybody would like to suggest a new color. (21:51:21) stickster: Sopwith: Ah, I think I see the problem (21:51:43) stickster: Sopwith: the "make html-nochunks" should be "make html" if I'm not mistaken (21:52:02) Sopwith: Hmm, I thought someone told me to change it to nochunks (21:52:12) stickster: Hm (21:52:24) quaid: relnotes is nochunks for the fedora-release package (21:52:33) stickster: Well it probably doesn't matter, if so, then just change the "cp" command to: (21:52:47) quaid: again, though, I'd like to see all targets buildable (21:52:48) stickster: cp -a "${DOCBASE}-${LANG}.html" "${DESTDIR}" (21:52:57) quaid: maybe with a config file inside the module itself? (21:53:15) quaid: where you could specify which make targets and which CVS tags to check out and build (21:53:20) stickster: Sopwith: Tell you what, let me tinker with it and build in some more intelligence (21:53:33) stickster: quaid: Understood, will make some command line options, etc. for more flexibility (21:53:43) quaid: the only other hot topic worth discussing is packaging (21:53:43) Sopwith: stickster: Cool. Bonus points if you can figure out how to get rid of the whole CVS authentication boondoggle ;-) (21:53:48) stickster: :-) (21:54:03) quaid: do stickster or megacoder have any questions/items to discuss whilst we are formed like Voltron? (21:54:09) stickster: Ah, packaging, my sweet... my precious (21:54:52) stickster: megacoder did an awesome job with this DTD, not only did he do something XMLish which I dig, but also helped me understand how to read and write my own by reading his example! (21:55:34) stickster: We are hashing out (on list, to encourage participation) any small details on other stuff which might need to be included (21:56:04) megacoder: Stickster and I have been dorking around with the RPM packaging issue. I've developed a DTD and some XSLT stylesheets to generate most of the overhead files such as RPM .spec files, yelp OMF files, and the like using tools we already have. (21:56:10) stickster: Basically each doc author will remove their separate and use the rpm-info.xml file to populate both that XML fragment in the doc, and RPM changelog info (21:56:23) stickster: Plus all the other goodies megacoder just mentioned (21:56:46) megacoder: Stickster has kindly consented to providing prototype templates that I can fill in from the XSLT stuff. (21:57:03) stickster: Oh, and by the way, xmlstarlet is now in Fedora Extras for anyone who wants it (21:57:22) stickster: FC-3 and FC-4 branches available in addition to rawhide (21:57:28) megacoder: Cool! (21:57:42) megacoder: That didn't hurt a bit. (21:58:06) quaid: FE++ (21:58:07) stickster: :-) If you see any spots where docs or other hoohah refers to the 'xml' program, let me know... I think I squashed all of it but you never know (21:58:19) quaid: what is xmlstarlet? (21:58:25) stickster: cli XML tool (21:58:47) megacoder: A command line tool that uses XSLT to perform arbitrary queries against an XML document. (21:59:05) quaid: ah, cool (21:59:21) megacoder: Something like "xmlstarlet /doc/title" writing "Example Tutorial" to stdout. (21:59:26) ***nman64 arrives at literally the last minute. (21:59:29) stickster: Yeah! (21:59:38) megacoder: That's the wrong syntax, but the right idea. (22:00:18) quaid: you know .. I parse IRC conversations by the length of the nick (22:00:19) Bob-Laptop: WTG nman64 (22:00:20) stickster: Do a "yum install xmlstarlet" and taste the goodness! (22:00:39) quaid: so I'm always getting confused when stickster and megacoder are talking at the same time, the nicks look close enough to me when it's really flying. (22:00:39) stickster: quaid: I'd keep that private if I were you (22:00:57) stickster: Good, we'll keep doing that then :-D (22:01:10) megacoder: Stickster, pay quaid the $20 for the compliment ;-) (22:01:12) quaid: so, I read the syntax bit as being a comment on the usage of the word "Yeah" (22:01:30) stickster: megacoder: You wish (22:01:31) quaid: Installed: xmlstarlet.i386 0:1.0.1-2.fc3 (22:01:43) megacoder: quaid; what would be your preference? (22:01:53) quaid: preference for ....? (22:01:55) stickster: quaid: fc3? come on, live on the edge... (22:02:08) megacoder: distinguising megacoder & stickster (22:02:23) stickster: Easy, I'm the handsome one (22:02:31) megacoder: Agreed. (22:02:40) quaid: stickster: when you have to write your expense reports for work, what OS do you use? (22:02:46) stickster: Or am I cheap and easy? I keep getting confused (22:02:59) megacoder: Well, you are what you eat... (22:03:05) megacoder: Fast, cheap and easy. (22:03:06) quaid: megacoder: nah, don't worry about it, it's my odd quirk that is often humor causing (22:03:28) stickster: quaid: I don't travel much so I rarely have to do them (22:03:31) quaid: stickster: so, yeah, that's my bottom line on my main machine, and it means I often run way back in FC versions :) (22:03:53) stickster: Most of my paperwork is on a "company" system where everything uses that *other* OS (22:04:00) quaid: in the future ... I'll probably run a RHEL desktop and do all my FC stuff in Xen, just to be one with the team :) (22:04:09) stickster: Disco (22:04:41) stickster: All right... we seem to be winding down, but are there any questions about the packaging stuff that Tommy and I did? (22:04:49) stickster: More to come obviously... (22:04:55) ***quaid has none (22:05:45) megacoder: Draft-document email away.. (22:07:05) elliss: Speaking of e-mails... (22:07:44) elliss: Perhaps advertise the Mirror Tutorial on fedora-announce ? (22:08:47) stickster: AOB - There's a lot of SELinux FAQ items in BZ now... is there anyone helping quaid with those? (22:09:13) quaid: nope (22:09:19) quaid: that document is fairly DOA at the moment (22:09:22) stickster: quaid: You poor bastard ;-) (22:09:23) quaid: wasn't updated for FC5 (22:09:26) quaid: s/5/4 (22:09:47) stickster: How much has changed where there are major overhauls needed? (22:09:53) quaid: I've abandoned it for the greater good, which is lame of me for not doing a handoff (22:10:00) quaid: no idea of the scope (22:10:25) stickster: Maybe you could post to the list and invite some people to take it up... I'm not qualified but surely we have someone in the contributors who could jump in (22:10:31) quaid: I could ask for help on some lists ... but they would have to be very independent people. (22:11:04) stickster: I can hold hands and help with editing but I just don't know enough about the subject to fix the bugs myself (22:11:07) Bob-Laptop: Mmmm SElinux (22:12:44) ignacio is now known as ignacio|NotHere (22:14:37) stickster: Does that mean we're done then? (22:14:48) quaid: yeah, got a deadline I'm distracted with (22:14:48) quaid: sorry (22:15:00) megacoder: caio (22:15:01) quaid: stickster: can you spawn a thread in f-selinux-l? (22:15:03) megacoder: ciao? (22:15:07) quaid: cacao (22:15:15) Bob-Laptop: L8r (22:15:17) stickster: I'm not on that list (22:15:22) quaid: ah, ok (22:15:39) quaid: here, I'll send a quick one (22:15:39) stickster: But I could join long enough to do so, and direct interested recipients to join f-docs-l for followup (22:15:55) stickster: or... not (22:16:35) quaid: yeah, just be ready to receive on f-docs-l with me :) (22:17:24) stickster: k (22:17:29) stickster: Hmm, playing with xmlstarlet now (22:17:40) stickster: Did you see the item Tim Waugh had on "meld" in the new RHM? COOL! (22:19:42) stickster: quaid: You meant (22:20:05) quaid: -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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