From stuart at elsn.org Sat Sep 3 11:54:01 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 12:54:01 +0100 Subject: Submission: Home Server Setup Guide In-Reply-To: <431918D8.3060009@brennan.id.au> References: <431918D8.3060009@brennan.id.au> Message-ID: <1125748442.3067.72.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-09-03 at 07:30 +0400, Miles Brennan wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > G'day to all, > > As Karsten queried a few weeks earlier, yes I?m one of those lurking, > too busy at the moment, don't know where to begin, never used CVS and > not sure what to do - classic post and you caught me out ;) > > Over the new year break I wrote the 'Linux Home Server HOWTO' > (http://www.brennan.id.au). > > It is a complete HOWTO for setting up a Linux gateway server connected > to the Internet and providing network resources to the internal > workstations (MS/Linux). Firewall/Samba/DNS/NTP/FTP guides etc... > > It was originally written for FC3 so some of it may need a little > tweaking as I haven't yet updated it. However it is a complete HOWTO, 20 > chapters in all (~180 pages when printed). > > I now offer it for comment / criticism / appraisal / submission. > > I would prefer to keep the content / concept complete if possible, but > open to suggestions. > > BTW, hello list :) If you haven't looked this, please do. I've looked through the Guide, and in all seriousness I think that it would be a *major* step forward if we could integrate this material. Questions on how to setup routing, mail, Web, FTP and other basic functions appear so regularly that it's clear that providing this information would be of service to a great many users. There's clearly overlaps with sections in this guide and other more specialized documents we have or are expecting (such as Peter Boy's Samba tutorial), and we would need to consider how to resolve that satisfactorily. It would also require an editing effort to make it compliant with our documentation standards. That said, we've just been offered a complete book written to a pretty good technical standard, and it would take many months for the FDP to build up such broad coverage of these topics. I feel that we ought to pursue this offer vigorously. I'm posting this to FDSCo rather than replying to the OP immediately because mentoring the author and resolving the issues of integrating it will require some effort on the part of more than one person. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Mon Sep 5 06:53:21 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 07:53:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Submission: Home Server Setup Guide In-Reply-To: <431918D8.3060009@brennan.id.au> References: <431918D8.3060009@brennan.id.au> Message-ID: <44617.192.168.100.90.1125903201.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > G'day to all, > > As Karsten queried a few weeks earlier, yes I?m one of those lurking, > too busy at the moment, don't know where to begin, never used CVS and > not sure what to do - classic post and you caught me out ;) > > Over the new year break I wrote the 'Linux Home Server HOWTO' > (http://www.brennan.id.au). > > It is a complete HOWTO for setting up a Linux gateway server connected > to the Internet and providing network resources to the internal > workstations (MS/Linux). Firewall/Samba/DNS/NTP/FTP guides etc... My comments to the FDSCo list (aimed at Miles, to be sent to him later) Excellent, but all this shouldn't be on a Gateway server ;-) > > It was originally written for FC3 so some of it may need a little > tweaking as I haven't yet updated it. However it is a complete HOWTO, 20 > chapters in all (~180 pages when printed). > > I now offer it for comment / criticism / appraisal / submission. I have had a quick scan and first impressions are that it's good to see someone who knows what they are talking about! 9/10 these guides are compiled from many other guides and make the same mistakes. How did I come to this conclusion? Well, in guides like this, if there is an LDAP section, I check straight away that the BDB backend is used, then I see that, I know that they have a clue. http://www.brennan.id.au/20-Shared_Address_Book_LDAP.html#config Welcome aboard and I look forward to reviewing the rest of your excellent guide. Gavin. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From kwade at redhat.com Mon Sep 5 23:05:19 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:05:19 -0700 Subject: about 6 Sep meeting Message-ID: <1125961519.24900.8.camel@erato.phig.org> I'm going to be unavailable off-site until 1 pm PDT tomorrow, which is the start of our meeting. I should be able to be back at the console by 15 minutes after the hour. I haven't put together an agenda for tomorrow yet. I'm supposing there is stuff to talk about, no matter what. So, my plan is to start the meeting 15 minutes late and go for 45 minutes. Alternately, we can cancel until next week, if enough people cannot make it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Sep 6 17:32:16 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 10:32:16 -0700 Subject: about 6 Sep meeting In-Reply-To: <1125961519.24900.8.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1125961519.24900.8.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1126027936.6907.13.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-09-05 at 16:05 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > I'm going to be unavailable off-site until 1 pm PDT tomorrow, which is > the start of our meeting. I'll be here on time, I'm bringing alt. transport back. :) - Karsten > > I should be able to be back at the console by 15 minutes after the hour. > I haven't put together an agenda for tomorrow yet. I'm supposing there > is stuff to talk about, no matter what. > > So, my plan is to start the meeting 15 minutes late and go for 45 > minutes. > > Alternately, we can cancel until next week, if enough people cannot make > it. > > - Karsten > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Sep 6 20:24:45 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:24:45 -0700 Subject: next meeting 13 September, I'm missing two meetings in October Message-ID: <1126038285.6907.24.camel@erato.phig.org> Hi friends: Sorry about the ambiguity today, guess we were meant to cancel. :) Next meeting is 13 September. What do you think of this idea? I didn't it until recently. Other committees (FESCo and Marketing) have a single, master schedule that is really a task list, and that is the agenda for the meeting. Every meeting, the list is run from top to bottom, things are adjusted, etc. Work done on Wiki in real time. How does that sound? (thanks for the pointer, Rahul, worth trying out some of the ideas) I'm feeling as if our minutes and tasks are trapped in email threads, and aren't alive. Also, I'm vacationing this October, through the meetings on the 4th and 11th of October. I'd like Paul to chair those meetings in my absence, if he's available. cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Sep 6 20:28:52 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:28:52 -0700 Subject: next meeting 13 September, I'm missing two meetings in October In-Reply-To: <1126038285.6907.24.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1126038285.6907.24.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1126038532.6907.28.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-09-06 at 13:24 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Hi friends: > > Sorry about the ambiguity today, guess we were meant to cancel. :) > > Next meeting is 13 September. > > What do you think of this idea? I didn't it until recently. I didn't understand it until recently. :) > > Other committees (FESCo and Marketing) have a single, master schedule > that is really a task list, and that is the agenda for the meeting. > Every meeting, the list is run from top to bottom, things are adjusted, > etc. Work done on Wiki in real time. > > How does that sound? (thanks for the pointer, Rahul, worth trying out > some of the ideas) > > I'm feeling as if our minutes and tasks are trapped in email threads, > and aren't alive. > > Also, I'm vacationing this October, through the meetings on the 4th and > 11th of October. I'd like Paul to chair those meetings in my absence, > if he's available. FWIW, meeting the family in Michigan for two weeks of RV'ing across the great Northwest. We'll start by mimicking the Ingalls family trail from Pipin, MN, through Walnut Grove, WI, and into De Smet, SD. :) > cheers - Karsten > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 12:35:26 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 08:35:26 -0400 Subject: Apologies Message-ID: <1126096526.3104.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> I got back from Seattle at about 3am on Tuesday, and after getting up late and taking care of overdue errands, I realized I had missed the meeting. Sorry everybody! Of course, it looks like the meeting may not have happened anyway, so no harm, no foul. I'm not sure I will be at the next one, because I am on vacation next week and may not have Internet service where I'm going. Don't change any plans on my account. As for chairing the Oct. 4 & 11 meetings, I think I can handle that. I'm not very well-versed in the way translations are being handled, so if there are translation-related issues to be resolved, I may need to lean on Tammy or someone @RH who has more experience with those things. (Very provincial of me, yes?) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sat Sep 10 12:33:28 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 07:33:28 -0500 Subject: next meeting 13 September, I'm missing two meetings in October In-Reply-To: <1126038285.6907.24.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1126038285.6907.24.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050910073328.35c536cf.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > Other committees (FESCo and Marketing) have a single, master schedule > that is really a task list, and that is the agenda for the meeting. > Every meeting, the list is run from top to bottom, things are adjusted, > etc. Work done on Wiki in real time. Well, there has been a FDP task wiki page for quite a long time and AFAICT it is lying dormant, covered with long tall grass from lack of use. At least email threads in this mailing list get picked up by some archivers, and they get watched by google.com, et. al. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Mon Sep 12 10:18:54 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:18:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Relnotes e-mail - OK? Message-ID: <45771.195.38.86.72.1126520334.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Hi Guys, Was my e-mail ok? Also, is the Beats Wiki page ok? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats Not too sure about the pre-filled bug report though. Thanks. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From tfox at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 20:07:29 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:07:29 -0400 Subject: idea for tomorrow's meeting Message-ID: <1126555649.6864.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Karsten, I just talked to Linda Harrison with Pearson Publishing, and she said that she sent Karsten an email after the Summit (after talking to gdk and katzj) about Pearson printing the Fedora docs. They are starting a new format called AtWork for tutorial style content. Seems like we don't have quite enough docs to print just yet, but is this something we could discuss in tomorrow's meeting? Might be something interesting to think about in the future. Plus, some of us would get our names in print. ;-) Thanks, Tammy From kwade at redhat.com Tue Sep 13 08:17:10 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:17:10 -0700 Subject: meeting 13 Sep 2005 Message-ID: <1126599430.12843.32.camel@erato.phig.org> For this meeting we're going to try the task-list-as-agenda-driver method so popular in other Fedora projects. This means that by tomorrow's meeting, I'll have this page updated with all of the various tasks that have come up in the last months: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Sep 13 21:13:14 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:13:14 -0700 Subject: last word on keyword Message-ID: <1126645994.903.11.camel@erato.phig.org> Elliot: In discussions with FDSCo, we noted that the keyword *docs* is easy to mistake as using two wildcards around 'docs'. Another point was made that not requiring extra keystrokes (such as the shift to get the *) might increase usage/make for less grumbling and happier developers. Here are a few that fit this bill, which is to have some semantic or structure meaning, not easily be confused with another meaning in the same context (of coding or a commit log): [docs] //docs// Thoughts? Any others? thx - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Sep 13 21:33:58 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: last word on keyword In-Reply-To: <1126645994.903.11.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1126645994.903.11.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > In discussions with FDSCo, we noted that the keyword *docs* is easy to > mistake as using two wildcards around 'docs'. Yes, it is two wildcards around docs. Theoretically there is a possibility for you guys to get extra commit messages that don't really belong in the relnotes. I'm not aware of any existing usages of '*docs*', and people don't typically type *docs* into CVS commit messages otherwise, so I'm not really worried about it. > Another point was made that not requiring extra keystrokes (such as the > shift to get the *) might increase usage/make for less grumbling and > happier developers. I don't think developers will have a problem here. If it were a long string that we expected them to type for hours on end, maybe this would be a valid objection... But an extra two keystrokes once a day? Gimme a break. > Here are a few that fit this bill, which is to have some semantic or > structure meaning, not easily be confused with another meaning in the > same context (of coding or a commit log): > > [docs] > //docs// The latter one requires as many keystrokes as *docs* :) By way of explanation, I suggested *foo* because it is similar to the pattern common in e-mail where you type *foo* to emphasize foo... (/foo/ and _foo_ are also sometimes used). I'll go with whatever you guys want, but KISS :) -- Elliot Pioneers get the Arrows. Settlers get the Land. From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 14 00:03:40 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:03:40 -0700 Subject: last word on keyword In-Reply-To: References: <1126645994.903.11.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1126656220.903.21.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 17:33 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > By way of explanation, I suggested *foo* because it is similar to the > pattern common in e-mail where you type *foo* to emphasize foo... (/foo/ > and _foo_ are also sometimes used). My informal developer poll reminded me that this is indeed common usage, and in some Wiki and blog software. We are in fact asking people to "highlight list log for documentation" so *docs* is a nice recursive example of "highlighted docs". We'll keep it *docs*. Too many false positives in the future might change that. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 18:02:35 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:02:35 -0700 Subject: IRC log 13-Sep-2005 meeting Message-ID: <1126807355.27149.63.camel@erato.phig.org> Sep 13 13:05:13 Sep 13 13:05:27 so, uh, I didn't do a great job of getting the previous actions into the task list yet Sep 13 13:05:41 so I thought we'd roll down the current list and update it, and then add items, by priority Sep 13 13:05:49 we'll go as far down the list as we can today, by priority. Sep 13 13:06:00 just a quick overview of what this small change means: Sep 13 13:06:17 for the next three meetings or so, I am going to try out the method that everyone-but-me uses for running project meetings :) Sep 13 13:06:18 k Sep 13 13:06:30 if it works for us, or needs adjusting, that's cool Sep 13 13:06:44 I do sort of feel that the continuity of tasks is not good, and the visibility could be better, so this could solve that. Sep 13 13:07:04 mether poked me about it last week, and I gave it some thought and see merit, so let's roll with it for now. Sep 13 13:07:11 Yeah, I like seeing the tasks on the wiki. Sep 13 13:07:12 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule Sep 13 13:07:41 nman64: how do you span columns in the MoinMoin table code? || || ? Sep 13 13:08:06 I don't see my name there. Sep 13 13:08:20 G2: many recent tasks are not on there Sep 13 13:08:23 s/many/most/ Sep 13 13:08:47 Well, that's mainly because I've been doing not very much lately :( Sep 13 13:09:15 G2: update the page now, you are there :) Sep 13 13:09:28 you are doing beat writer recruiting Sep 13 13:09:42 ok, to the top Sep 13 13:09:49 "Define how tasks are tracked" Sep 13 13:10:21 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks is the page that came from that Sep 13 13:10:29 it now needs to include the tracking of tasks through the wiki Sep 13 13:10:54 any comments on that page? is that task completed? other thoughts? Sep 13 13:11:35 Looks good Sep 13 13:11:42 --> megacoder (n=reynolds at adsl-065-005-229-109.sip.lft.bellsouth.net) has joined #fedora-docs Sep 13 13:11:44 Wiki Docs are kind of self-defining in this context Sep 13 13:12:11 hi, gang. Better late than never, I guess. Sep 13 13:12:18 megacoder: welcome Sep 13 13:12:37 * mrj has added *all* the docbook inlines to xmlformat- fdp.conf Sep 13 13:12:39 megacoder: I was just pointing all at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule and saying that for the next few meetings we are going to have this drive the agenda Sep 13 13:13:08 to see if we like that :) Sep 13 13:13:27 I am going to have to duck out. I'll check the Schedule in the morning and I'll be on IRC. Also got to clear lots on RPMs in the morning too. Sorry guys. Poke me for jobs tomorrow. Night. Sep 13 13:13:53 G2: night Sep 13 13:13:59 watch that wiki page :) Sep 13 13:14:28 quaid, you got any suggestions on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=158391 Sep 13 13:14:59 mether: maybe after the meeting Sep 13 13:16:11 moving on Sep 13 13:16:31 mrj and megacoder: what is the status on Saxon and FOP and gcj? Sep 13 13:16:57 no work on building saxon or fop with gcj from me Sep 13 13:17:08 maybe in a month... Sep 13 13:18:10 is this still a priority 1? a gating issue for FDP? Sep 13 13:18:55 It does impact on distributing docs Sep 13 13:19:50 Since currently the only ways to get docs are tarballs and building from CVS Sep 13 13:20:04 do we need another Java developer to help? Sep 13 13:20:11 elliss: and HTML! Sep 13 13:20:23 AFAIK, we don't have _any_ java folk active now. Sep 13 13:20:23 Tarball = zipped HTML Sep 13 13:20:27 oh, right Sep 13 13:20:38 megacoder: s/another/a/ then :) Sep 13 13:20:53 I've exceeded my java capabilities already. Sep 13 13:21:39 ok, let's look for some Java help, someone to compile these and preferably package them in Extras Sep 13 13:22:29 post to fedora java devel list? Sep 13 13:22:41 yep Sep 13 13:23:09 megacoder: can you do a summary our situation and/or a request to the Fedora java devel list? Sep 13 13:23:27 I'll take that and circulate it amongst internal Java list(s) for folks not reading the Fedora one actively. Sep 13 13:23:29 yup, I can do that. Sep 13 13:24:06 ok, that's it for now on that Sep 13 13:24:11 POint me to the java list? Sep 13 13:24:18 f-java-devel-l? Sep 13 13:24:19 * quaid looks Sep 13 13:24:39 found it Sep 13 13:24:47 nay, nah! I won. Sep 13 13:24:56 :) Sep 13 13:25:00 * quaid missed with his guess Sep 13 13:25:01 http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora- devel-java-list/ Sep 13 13:25:22 quaid, java team requested that and was incorrectly assigned this name Sep 13 13:25:34 ah, jeez Sep 13 13:25:35 quaid, perl team got the name as requested. so its a mess ;-) Sep 13 13:25:47 java team should have just pushed it back up Sep 13 13:25:56 I've had mailing lists fat fingered before, Sep 13 13:25:58 I'm subscribing now. Sep 13 13:26:04 anyway it is what it is Sep 13 13:26:07 yep Sep 13 13:26:19 on to FDP staging server Sep 13 13:26:45 let's see ... I know I sent email to Sopwith and skvidal before elliot's vacation, have to look for status, one sec. Sep 13 13:27:34 bah, slow stuff Sep 13 13:27:57 basic status is, talked with Elliot, basic concept is agreed upon Sep 13 13:28:13 good good Sep 13 13:29:04 ok, yeah, there is hardware we can use, and he likes the idea of "rawhide of docs", so he understands what we are trying to do. Sep 13 13:29:11 I'll get back to Elliot and see where we are on this. Sep 13 13:30:09 on to trans process Sep 13 13:30:22 we are a bit stalled right now with the infrastructure, i.e., where do translations go Sep 13 13:30:32 I'm trying to move the emails from private to one of the fedora lists Sep 13 13:31:00 anyway, Elliot and Bernd Groh (tech lead for trans team) are working on this together, so it will get done Sep 13 13:31:23 and we'll surely have the staging server delivering all available languages in all output formats we can make Sep 13 13:32:05 megacoder has agreed to do the Makefile and we have agreed how it is best to appear in the directories, as e.g. foo- es.xml next to foo-en.xml Sep 13 13:32:13 anything missing here? Sep 13 13:32:57 Some translators want to work with PO files. Anybody have a practique for using PO files with XML? Sep 13 13:33:21 megacoder: the trans team, aiui, has tools for that Sep 13 13:33:31 xml2po and then po2xml, iirc Sep 13 13:33:47 and they use kbabel to work the PO files Sep 13 13:33:58 s/they/some/ Sep 13 13:34:04 So, do we just need to accept their finished "foo-de.xml" file and let them deal with the PO's? Sep 13 13:34:09 exactly Sep 13 13:34:30 we output foo-en.xml and accept foo-xy.xml and that's it Sep 13 13:34:36 the rest is on the translation processes to take care of Sep 13 13:34:45 oh, of course we make room in the schedule for all this :) Sep 13 13:35:08 if any translators come asking for help with the trans tools, we can surely try, but it's not our purview. Sep 13 13:36:02 * quaid saves a copy of http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule Sep 13 13:36:25 anything else on the trans process? Sep 13 13:37:43 is the process for translators documented? Sep 13 13:37:55 probably not :) Sep 13 13:38:20 we need a NewTranslators page prolly Sep 13 13:38:35 OK, I added the need to document to the task Sep 13 13:38:44 feel free to clone and fix up NewWriters, if you wish :)( Sep 13 13:38:56 ok, on to "Recruit for beat writers" Sep 13 13:39:06 G2 correctly wiped the slate clean the other day Sep 13 13:39:16 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats Sep 13 13:39:47 this is inline with what we agreed upon for FC4, that none of you were beholden to continue in the role Sep 13 13:40:10 so, first item -- if you want to continue in your beat writer role, please add your name back to the page Sep 13 13:40:28 note, though, that this is now an assignment, you have to keep it until you proactively pass it on. Sep 13 13:40:46 how about a option to sign up more permanently Sep 13 13:41:04 so, you'll see that in the recruiting run I did recently, I got one bite, Jens Petersen suggested a new category and, at my proding, agreed to supply the content via Wiki. Sep 13 13:41:05 yeah right. you answered me already Sep 13 13:41:27 mether: so, yeah, if you want to continue to do packaging, awesome, great, please :) Sep 13 13:41:57 quaid, would like to the tools RHEL people use to get the package listings Sep 13 13:42:00 quaid, and diffs Sep 13 13:42:27 mether: you can, sopwith is a great resource for that Sep 13 13:42:42 quaid, yeah ok. i will bug him Sep 13 13:42:49 mether: this is where being inside helps, you can get a shell on a machine to run the package diff tools against the CVS. Sep 13 13:43:10 ok, so, g2 is going to help me with recruiting Sep 13 13:43:28 N.B., the Java help solicitation is hitting the wires about now. Sep 13 13:43:29 as part of that, I'm going to contact a few people, such as sopwith and gregdek_gone, to beg for help in pressuring developers to put up content or writers. Sep 13 13:43:39 megacoder: sweet Sep 13 13:44:02 Well, if I do it immediately, I don't have to remember to do it... Sep 13 13:44:04 we now own the relnotes, so we can't get haughty, take our XML, and go home. Sep 13 13:44:38 but, IMNSHO, the developers actually are responsible for providing the "note(s)" that we turn into the the "release notes" Sep 13 13:44:57 so, I'm going to turn to them to provide themselves or somebody from their project to do this work. Sep 13 13:45:10 how does this sound? Sep 13 13:45:34 better relnotes = fewer unnecessary bug reports Sep 13 13:45:46 yep Sep 13 13:46:11 It's very much up to the developers to push the raw info, I feel Sep 13 13:46:22 also, we've gone a long way towards making the relnotes more user friendly Sep 13 13:46:26 elliss: +1 Sep 13 13:46:39 and they will, sometimes, at our prodding, with lots of nagmails, and that's how it's usually done Sep 13 13:46:44 but filtered through one writer, which we cannot do Sep 13 13:47:07 now they need to supply the maintainer, who doesn't need to be a writer, but can at least compile the content and make some sense of it :) Sep 13 13:48:08 While that sounds good, do we have any real example of someone doing that? Sep 13 13:48:19 so far, only Jens Petersen :) Sep 13 13:48:33 megacoder: do you mean in other projects etc? like Debian, Gentoo? Sep 13 13:48:37 Shoot, you called my bluff Sep 13 13:49:08 I haven't looked, but I'm sure that developer.mozilla.org has a high level of Wiki hands-on help from developers for relnotes. Sep 13 13:49:34 nman64: can you help me to figure out a sane way to layout the relnotes in the Wiki? Sep 13 13:50:21 nman64: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki? action=fullsearch&context=180&value=fedoradocs% 2Freleasenotes&titlesearch=Titles was how someone did them before Sep 13 13:50:34 which was unwieldy, but he was using some scripts iirc Sep 13 13:51:25 if we have a good format for accepting content, we can skip the bug report stuff and have people put stuff in raw Wiki Sep 13 13:51:57 ok, I'm done with this topic Sep 13 13:52:04 what else are priority 1 items that should be in here? Sep 13 13:52:18 Q: Does this supercede the *docs* CVS tag idea ? Sep 13 13:52:36 parts of the same process Sep 13 13:53:08 so, project developers use the CVS tag and bugzilla component to organize a group of stuff that needs to be documented somehow Sep 13 13:53:25 that is all seen by the relnotes@ people, so the beat writer gets to sort it out, and make sure it's all on the Wiki Sep 13 13:58:12 final point, I need to find out from Sopwith if the script is truly ready to rock Sep 13 13:58:19 and get him to use **docs** instead, yes? Sep 13 13:59:35 [docs] #glorious-docs# Sep 13 14:00:22 The ** character is probably best :) Sep 13 14:00:36 yeah Sep 13 14:00:48 it's common enough kind of way to **NOTE** something Sep 13 14:01:07 ok, I'm going to finish adding in tasks from old minutes and save this Wiki page Sep 13 14:01:46 tcf: I want to add the book publishing into this page, as well Sep 13 14:02:00 I don't like the "*" character. At least the [] pair doesn't require a shift key. Sep 13 14:02:06 tcf: I thought I replied to Linda, but I can't find a reply, so perhaps I never sent it and it was lost during an Evo non-recovery Sep 13 14:02:38 megacoder: goddamn! but I'm happy we have a cranky UNIX keyboarder around these parts Sep 13 14:03:08 right, good point, we want to _increase_ usage by making it as easy as possible Sep 13 14:03:13 WHO SAYS I'M CRABBY!!!! TAKE THAT BACK, WORM! Sep 13 14:03:44 quaid: great, sounds good Sep 13 14:03:47 no, no, cranky as in "my keyboard is so old I have to crank it up before I use it" Sep 13 14:03:55 lol Sep 13 14:05:48 Megaflops? My brain has a DC clock... Sep 13 14:12:36 -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 18:20:32 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:20:32 -0700 Subject: IRC log 16 August 2005 meeting Message-ID: <1126808432.27149.66.camel@erato.phig.org> catching up :) Aug 16 13:03:21 Aug 16 13:03:24 --> megacoder (n=reynolds at adsl-065-005-229-109.sip.lft.bellsouth.net) has joined #fedora-docs Aug 16 13:03:25 G2: hi Aug 16 13:03:33 hi stickster Aug 16 13:03:41 hi elliss, megacoder, g2, stickster Aug 16 13:03:46 tcf: Hi Aug 16 13:03:48 hi tcf, who was here already :) Aug 16 13:03:51 oops Aug 16 13:03:59 hi Aug 16 13:04:14 stickster: hi Aug 16 13:04:20 hi Aug 16 13:04:23 hi quaid Aug 16 13:04:24 We're such a friendly bunch Aug 16 13:04:32 megacoder: did you say recently that you are actually writing code these days? I thought you were going to be stuck in an evangelical role or sumethin' Aug 16 13:04:35 I've been watching the clock all day to make sure I didn't miss it this week Aug 16 13:04:37 stickster: it's been so long! Aug 16 13:04:43 tcf: heh, me too Aug 16 13:05:00 quaid: I'm usually around, but the time just slips my mind when I'm busy editing or something Aug 16 13:05:08 Writing (righting!) code in support of some training classes. Aug 16 13:05:20 me too Aug 16 13:05:36 In addition to that, I just speak ex cathedra. Aug 16 13:05:46 I have to leave work early to make the meeting, so that helps Aug 16 13:06:11 stickster: good point Aug 16 13:06:25 agenda was sent to the list Aug 16 13:06:59 Did any docs stuff come up at LWCE as part of Fedora BoF, etc.? Aug 16 13:07:15 yeah, it was definitely discussed somewhat iin the BoF Aug 16 13:07:37 that started with lots of lame technical questions, and I finally turned the tide by asking the room how the community process was working for them. Aug 16 13:07:44 we discussed mainly how to get involved, what that means. Aug 16 13:08:00 Uli was particularly hard-nosed about contributing v. feature-requesting :) Aug 16 13:08:25 within that, we discussed docs as being one of the first places new FOSS contributors are pointed to, Uli at least sends people our way Aug 16 13:08:41 which brings in an interesting recruiting idea, making sure the developers know where to send people ... Aug 16 13:09:06 * quaid makes an action note Aug 16 13:09:47 I also discussed generic Linux documentation for a while with Greg Kurtzer of cAos Linux. Aug 16 13:10:16 he was surprisingly supportive of Red Hat with the whole CentOS mess recently, and what we discussed was the idea of a Linuxpedia that would have distro-generic documentation. Aug 16 13:10:23 something we could all reference or pull from. Aug 16 13:11:01 back at the booth, Spot suggested that was nonsense, the distros are too far apart for that to work, and it would be a bunch of hassle with all the Deb and Gentoo people wanting this and that Aug 16 13:11:48 isn't tldp supposed to be distro-generic? Aug 16 13:11:51 so, we left it with Greg going to talk with Debian folks and others, and I'm to talk with you all, and see what we think. Aug 16 13:11:56 The main problem I see is that all the gentle intro admin tools in Fedora (system-config-*) are not to be found in many distros, or there are very different interfaces (YaST)... Aug 16 13:11:57 tcf: yes, exactly Aug 16 13:12:06 CLI-only documentation might work - the GUI stuff is definitely way too fragmented Aug 16 13:12:15 elliss: there ya go Aug 16 13:12:34 What about chkconfig, service, etc.? Aug 16 13:12:37 elliss: exactly, generic term definition, command line config would work Aug 16 13:12:51 cli! yes! If the machine is busted, how ya gonna get X11 tools working? Aug 16 13:12:53 but the "how to install" sections would be a mess Aug 16 13:13:14 What Centos mess? Aug 16 13:13:31 G2: I think it was a trademark issue, resolved eventually Aug 16 13:13:40 G2: where RHAT asked CentOS to stop infringing on trademarks, and instead of just fixing it, a whole stink was risen. Aug 16 13:14:01 ah Aug 16 13:14:16 I missed that in the press Aug 16 13:14:37 however, what about best practices? Aug 16 13:14:43 We should can some idea together for FudCON london Aug 16 13:14:53 and SYSV v. Berkeley style for config files, service starting, etc. Aug 16 13:15:05 quaid: My personal opinion is that Spot is often wise Aug 16 13:15:10 * quaid nods Aug 16 13:15:21 define:spot Aug 16 13:15:22 yeah, and he threw his water with some extra ice in it, 'twas chilling. Aug 16 13:15:30 megacoder: Tom 'spot' Callaway Aug 16 13:15:47 troublemaker and ne'er do well Aug 16 13:16:30 (but spoken with reverence, no doubt) Aug 16 13:16:35 no doubtr Aug 16 13:16:43 well, it think that's how he'd describe himself. Aug 16 13:17:27 I think we could probably all agree that with the amount of time we have to spend on process figgering already, the amount of work that we can really get done would plummet if we suddenly had to negotiate the cross-distro minefield Aug 16 13:17:42 I would say tcf is right, TLDP serves this purpose already Aug 16 13:18:14 yeah. EVery distro has their own version Aug 16 13:18:16 Well, this _is_ the FEDORA project, after all. Aug 16 13:18:18 Er... if that's what tcf said :-) Aug 16 13:18:28 I'll keep my ears open with Greg, see where it goes ... idea was to help generate a useful pool, not create much more work :) Aug 16 13:18:44 ok, thanks, that was my major LWCE report for docs Aug 16 13:18:52 oh, we did have a Free Documentation BoF Aug 16 13:19:05 conclusion that matters: we are techies and need to think for end users Aug 16 13:19:16 which is a major theme these days in FP Aug 16 13:19:17 If we could find out what our hundreds of subscribers are up to, that would be a useful pool too! (and thanks quaid for the delurkathon post) Aug 16 13:19:45 stickster: yes, I said that ;-) Aug 16 13:19:58 tcf: OK, didn't want to misquote you or put words in your mouth Aug 16 13:20:52 stickster: although I have seen a few distro- specific guides in tldp Aug 16 13:21:05 stickster: but as a whole, seems like it is supposed to be distro-neutral Aug 16 13:21:28 it is a bit of a shame that there is duplication of effort between distros Aug 16 13:21:48 if we could somehow have "generic" content the specific distro-docs could build from, that would be ideal Aug 16 13:22:03 kind of like everyone builds from the generic kernel to build a distro Aug 16 13:22:06 We do...at the application level Aug 16 13:22:12 * tcf keeps dreaming Aug 16 13:22:23 doing things "the Fedora/RedHat way" is fine but there are times when knowing the "real way" is nice, if the docs can cover that I think it would be a good idea Aug 16 13:22:24 elliss: right, so why not apply that to docs? Aug 16 13:22:31 I think one point of this discussion with Greg was to do it as a Wiki, harnessing the larger # of contributors. Aug 16 13:22:37 docbook as the ability to create modular docs Aug 16 13:22:55 Rick Moen pointed out how blindingly easy it is to get a doc into TLDP, but people don't do it. Aug 16 13:22:59 tcf: I meant that Samba etc. already ship content good for all distros Aug 16 13:23:17 But much of the UI is distro-specific Aug 16 13:23:25 elliss: oh, right, I see what you are saying Aug 16 13:23:27 elliss: that is true Aug 16 13:23:44 * megacoder attempts to return to reality Aug 16 13:24:00 Does this mean that we are adequately covered on the Fedora-centric documents? Aug 16 13:24:17 Focus, focus, focus Aug 16 13:24:58 There are certainly areas where generic docs are possible, but most docs would require so many changes for each distro that it wouldn't be worth creating generic docs. Aug 16 13:25:07 Ack, there's that Wiki word again Aug 16 13:25:21 nman64: that was the summary of spot's point, I think Aug 16 13:25:35 ok, let's table this for now, I'll let you all know what develops Aug 16 13:26:01 tidy-bowl up next Aug 16 13:26:10 what do you think about it? Aug 16 13:26:42 No problems to report, here :) Aug 16 13:26:43 It's ready as far as I can tell... The xmlformat-fdp.conf file has (AFAICT, again) all of our often-used tags... Aug 16 13:27:01 I think I need to check out the latest fedora-docs tree Aug 16 13:27:08 G2: a must Aug 16 13:27:20 esp. since it's no longer the fedora-docs tree :) Aug 16 13:27:33 * quaid gets all semantical about CVS modules Aug 16 13:27:44 remind me, it's been while Aug 16 13:27:44 ;-D Aug 16 13:28:03 G2: just that all of the docs have their own modules at the top of /cvs/docs Aug 16 13:28:13 cvs co -c reveals all Aug 16 13:28:42 megacoder: Do you have a problem with having one extra flag in tidy-bowl? Aug 16 13:28:47 stickster: can you or megacoder put together a short how-to for us dummies, and we can include that as part of the example-tutorial if need be. Aug 16 13:29:00 what flag? Aug 16 13:29:13 quaid: Very funny ;-) You should see my terminal now!!!! Aug 16 13:29:20 megacoder: a "-n" to *not* change the doc in place... to be used manually by individuals as needed Aug 16 13:30:10 so it's like a test output? Aug 16 13:30:18 Right, to stdout only Aug 16 13:30:20 Why would you wanna filter without a backup anyway. Aug 16 13:31:26 Sorry, I'm not grokking your syntax Aug 16 13:31:34 does that mean ... we should have an auto- backup? Aug 16 13:31:35 what's the main module name again? Aug 16 13:31:40 We could add the flag, but heaven help us if it ever gets activated during a CVS checkin Aug 16 13:31:55 It shouldn't unless the CVSROOT/commitinfo file suddenly changed Aug 16 13:32:12 Which is only edited by the people in this room... hmmm... Aug 16 13:32:18 * stickster strokes nonexistent beard Aug 16 13:32:32 But I'll do it if Sopwith doesn't object. Aug 16 13:32:55 After all, in the wrong hands it could wreck havoc on his server Aug 16 13:33:00 Err... huh? Aug 16 13:33:18 can't find the name on the wiki Aug 16 13:34:01 G2: cvs.fedora.redhat.com:/cvs/docs Aug 16 13:34:30 CVSROOT=:ext:ghenry at cvs.fedora.redhat.com:/cvs/docs Aug 16 13:34:33 G2: http://cvs.fedora.redhat.com/docs.shtml Aug 16 13:34:35 found it on the main site. I need to pull my finger out cand get up to date. Aug 16 13:34:50 megacoder: I also don't understand Aug 16 13:35:47 If this '-n' gets triggered somehow, the reformatted document will be blasted to stdout; I'm not sure how happy the CVS server is gonna be about that. Aug 16 13:36:30 Yeah, but it can only be triggered if one of us suddenly decided in a fit of insanity to change the CVSROOT/commitinfo to do that... Aug 16 13:36:49 side question, does every module that receives tidy-bowl treatment need to be listed in CVSROOT/commitinfo? Aug 16 13:37:02 The reason it would be there is so Joe Contributor can type "/path2docs/docs-common/bin/tidy-bowl -n mydoc" to see what it will look like Aug 16 13:37:17 quaid: It can be another DEFAULT rule as far as I can tell Aug 16 13:37:25 The point I was really making was that before editing the script, I'd like Sopwith to agree; just protocol Aug 16 13:37:34 ok, then it's relative to $CVSROOT Aug 16 13:37:47 np with that here... I just think it's not a really big risk Aug 16 13:38:06 megacoder: can you write up the patch and run it by sopwith? Aug 16 13:38:23 stickster: can you take the job of resurrecting the how-to details for this? Aug 16 13:38:31 then we can pull ye olde trigger soonest Aug 16 13:38:31 Yes Aug 16 13:38:45 Hm... this feature already exists with the "-t tool-args" switch, so it can't be that much more dangerous. OK, I'll do it. Aug 16 13:38:50 this will happen automatically, we need to warn people, "On your next commit this will happen" right? Aug 16 13:39:01 megacoder: right, this one would just strip the "-i" option Aug 16 13:39:11 tidy-bowl needs a man page! Aug 16 13:40:08 megacoder: I just mailed you a diff Aug 16 13:40:23 too late; I'm committing as we speak Aug 16 13:40:24 quaid: Yes, this should come with a warning to f-docs-l Aug 16 13:40:27 megacoder: Ha! Aug 16 13:40:34 Too efficient for your own good Aug 16 13:40:39 hoo-ha! Aug 16 13:41:09 ok, you two roll with that, activity in CVS isn't so crazy that you can't just define a window and make it happen. Aug 16 13:41:41 on to next fun topic Aug 16 13:42:01 I'm considering tabling recruiting, or moving it to the mailing list, because I want to discuss mentoring. Aug 16 13:42:02 wait! wait! Where do I send the man page? Aug 16 13:42:06 oh, sorry Aug 16 13:42:29 megacoder: I think it's time you or Paul considered packaging it for Extras :) Aug 16 13:42:59 otherwise, docs-common/docs/ ? Aug 16 13:43:08 Problem is xmlformat license Aug 16 13:43:11 oh, right Aug 16 13:43:15 was that never resolved? Aug 16 13:43:18 Why not just put tidy-bowl stuff in docguide? Aug 16 13:43:30 OK, that'll take me a bit, I'm absolutely snowed in me real work. Gimme a couple of hours... Aug 16 13:43:31 quaid: Resolution was, OK to use, not easy to get in Extras Aug 16 13:43:39 yes, that's the right place, but meanwhile, we can have a man page in docs-common/docs Aug 16 13:43:49 * megacoder dumps idea of an RPM Aug 16 13:43:51 sho nuff Aug 16 13:44:20 ok, we'll see ... xmlformat is getting popular, maybe someone will pursue getting the problems resolved upstream. Aug 16 13:44:27 ready to move on? Aug 16 13:44:29 yup Aug 16 13:44:41 fer sure Aug 16 13:45:04 I am moving to table recruiting and take it to the list as an ongoing discussions ... it was sort of a carryover from before ... mainly because I want to discuss mentoring with our time left. Aug 16 13:45:38 s/am moving/move/ Aug 16 13:45:44 Checkout all my fav modules. I have been slow. Aug 16 13:45:58 G2: cool, eh? :) Aug 16 13:46:06 Quaid: Are the two separable, though ? Aug 16 13:46:13 G2: like a real project now Aug 16 13:46:15 Very. Aug 16 13:46:18 cvs co owners install-guide securing-filesystems scripts proxy-guide hardening developer-guide Aug 16 13:46:28 this is what I got plus docs-common. Aug 16 13:46:33 We have been busy. Aug 16 13:46:48 elliss: no, not really, but I guess mentoring is a subset with a dotted-line to other areas. Aug 16 13:46:57 WE are missing LDAP and IPSEC. Samba, Postgresql, and others. Aug 16 13:47:01 s/WE/we Aug 16 13:47:12 best get finishing an d writing Aug 16 13:47:12 Mentoring, stickster agreed to be my mentor at the last meeting, I hope to get my first round of questions out to him via the list tonight. Aug 16 13:47:31 any objections to moving to mentoring for discussion? Aug 16 13:47:38 nope. Aug 16 13:47:39 G2: I usually just "cvs co ." and get the whole docs shebang Aug 16 13:47:45 quaid: nope Aug 16 13:47:48 n Aug 16 13:47:48 ok Aug 16 13:47:55 this came up at the Fedora BoF last week Aug 16 13:47:57 Just got my 1MB ADSL upgraded to 2MB for free Aug 16 13:48:00 ok Aug 16 13:48:01 StillBob: Sweet! Thanks Aug 16 13:48:03 much enthusiasm for the idea of mentoring Aug 16 13:48:04 stickster: cheers Aug 16 13:48:14 Rahul (mether) has put up some resources, etc. Aug 16 13:48:40 I put my name up on the list, esp. for docs stuff but also generic things Aug 16 13:48:59 quaid: on the wiki Aug 16 13:49:04 the idea seems to be, a person who can help new people navigate into the project. Contributors, mainly Aug 16 13:49:56 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors Aug 16 13:50:31 I was going to suggest we connect that together with contacting people who had self-intro'd Aug 16 13:50:44 i.e., offer to be those people's mentors Aug 16 13:51:24 Not sure about this Aug 16 13:51:43 I've gotten many of the 'getting started' style wiki pages thoroughly interconnected. They'll probably see the mentors page long before they introduce themselves. Aug 16 13:51:54 I suspect many don't have a project in mind Aug 16 13:51:56 Keeping in mind for docs stuff -- wherever possible, coax the mentored to be mentored on-list so others benefit Aug 16 13:52:06 ok Aug 16 13:52:28 elliss: hard to know what they are experiecing, since they are so quiet Aug 16 13:52:49 Thus the delurkification post Aug 16 13:53:10 which promptly got discarded as spam Aug 16 13:53:13 because of the subject Aug 16 13:53:15 ? Aug 16 13:53:18 Haa! Aug 16 13:53:37 stickster: sorry, ignacio|NotHere came by last night and teased me because he almost discarded my email because of the subject line "this is for you" :D Aug 16 13:53:41 Yeah, it was a bit too spam-ish. Saw your name and knew it was okay. Aug 16 13:53:57 nman64: just my kind of sideways humor Aug 16 13:54:23 it's the kind of provactive subject that USED to work before spam was prevalent Aug 16 13:54:39 quaid: Wow, why not just use Re: Bored in bed? Aug 16 13:54:51 * stickster just lost us our PG rating, sorry Aug 16 13:54:58 lol Aug 16 13:54:59 Yeah, any Subject: with "You" is probably spam. Aug 16 13:55:00 stickster: we had a PG rating? Aug 16 13:55:05 PG-13 Aug 16 13:55:13 f3d0r@ for you Aug 16 13:55:19 LOL Aug 16 13:55:33 'This is for her.' would have been much worse. Aug 16 13:55:34 quaid: well, there are a few kids around the keyboard at the meetings Aug 16 13:55:35 How about "Why are you lurking on the Document Project" Aug 16 13:55:37 all right... so, we hope people see that post and speak up... I think Bob's questions will help too Aug 16 13:55:39 quaid: don't think they can read yet though Aug 16 13:56:05 tcf: Sorry, will keep sly entendres to a minimum (some would say zero so far) Aug 16 13:56:06 I know! I know! "Get your mommy to read this email to you!" Aug 16 13:56:08 tcf: working on it over here :) Aug 16 13:56:31 megacoder: I like the first one Aug 16 13:56:33 how about this: Aug 16 13:56:47 * If you have time to mentor, add your name at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors Aug 16 13:56:51 ... or don't ... Aug 16 13:57:12 * If you want to mentor, you can pick up a name from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors to contact Aug 16 13:57:23 If you don't know where to start...speak up Aug 16 13:57:27 "Kids! Grow giant mushrooms in YOUR cellar!" Aug 16 13:57:28 * nman64 likes megacoder's first suggestion. Let's them know where it's coming from, in case they've forgotten about us. Aug 16 13:57:34 just Cc: the initial contact email to f-dsco-l so we don't double-up Aug 16 13:58:02 nman64: yeah, the straight approach would have been a better catch Aug 16 13:58:10 quaid: OK, so we should be doing this 1-on-1 with the S-I people we have already? Aug 16 13:58:14 BCC may be better Aug 16 13:58:46 Visible CC to an offficial committee may look odd Aug 16 13:58:50 elliss: Problem with bcc is there's a sneaky factor; cc lets people get the lay of the land Aug 16 13:59:00 Open == open Aug 16 13:59:27 OK, but it may be worth saying why an official committee is being CC'd in Aug 16 13:59:33 elliss: Absolutely Aug 16 13:59:53 yes, Aug 16 14:00:26 it'd be cool to specify who you are mentoring on the Contributors or Mentors page, but it needs to be accepted first. Aug 16 14:00:28 alternately Aug 16 14:00:28 At bottom: "FDSCo members were asked to contact people on the self-introduction list as part of their official duties. A copy of this letter is going to f-dsco-l to record action" Aug 16 14:00:38 we could just send a separate email to the list to let us know what's up. Aug 16 14:00:56 talking about us behind our back? Aug 16 14:00:56 but I like the two-birds approach :) Aug 16 14:00:59 LOL Aug 16 14:01:59 It has to look personal, I think Aug 16 14:02:06 Everyone who contacts folks on the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SelfIntroduction page should mark that name as "contacted by XXX on MM/DD/YY" Aug 16 14:02:25 s/SelfIntroduction/Contributors/ Aug 16 14:02:30 Oh yeah, sorry Aug 16 14:02:32 :-) Aug 16 14:02:39 elliss: +1 Aug 16 14:02:49 Yeah. We've not heard much from people on that Aug 16 14:03:00 Nowt, in fact Aug 16 14:03:19 They may be waiting on us to announce something - I don't know Aug 16 14:03:22 how about, "I Cc:'d the docs project committee so we can keep track of who we each contact.: Aug 16 14:03:37 quaid: thank you, that's what I meant :-) Aug 16 14:03:48 If you have to CC, then yeah Aug 16 14:04:13 But CC means "for official record" in many cases Aug 16 14:04:14 Great, so action item for this is -- let's get busy contacting people on the list... right? Aug 16 14:04:16 elliss: I thought about Bcc:, but it is a public archive Aug 16 14:04:30 elliss: if you prefer, just send a separate note to the list so we know who contacted whom, that's the real point. Aug 16 14:04:38 stickster: right Aug 16 14:04:46 I am putting these how-to details in the minutes Aug 16 14:04:52 sweet Aug 16 14:05:51 If you can't be bothered updating the Contributors page for contact time, BCC me on it and I'll do it. Aug 16 14:05:58 G2: attaboy Aug 16 14:06:27 and that brings us to ... any more recruting? Aug 16 14:06:39 re-cutting Aug 16 14:06:42 and AOB' Aug 16 14:07:20 I think recruiting stuff is best on-list Aug 16 14:07:38 Because it's kind of fruitless without the feedback Aug 16 14:07:52 'zactly true Aug 16 14:08:24 Well, that' sme. Chat tomorrow. Aug 16 14:08:45 Night. Aug 16 14:08:49 G2: night Aug 16 14:08:52 glad to see so many people show up for this meeting (the reminder helped me) Aug 16 14:08:57 good night everyone Aug 16 14:09:04 night Aug 16 14:09:07 tcf: G'night and bye Aug 16 14:09:16 yeah, I need to get the agenda out the night before Aug 16 14:09:16 so long until tomorrow Aug 16 14:09:17 ciao Aug 16 14:09:22 -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tfox at redhat.com Fri Sep 16 17:23:23 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:23:23 -0400 Subject: Docs Guide revisited? Message-ID: <1126891403.6298.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Paul et all, Looking at FedoraDocsSchedule, Paul and I are responsible for the task "Finalize Documentation Guide outline" after FC4 is finished. So, seems like we should get cracking on this again. This is probably related to Karsten's email about him and Mark updating the XML usage guidelines, since they are currently part of the Docs Guide. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks, Tammy From kwade at redhat.com Sun Sep 18 22:38:47 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 15:38:47 -0700 Subject: barage of recruitment Message-ID: <1127083127.6258.166.camel@erato.phig.org> I've started a barrage of recruitment for relnotes and beat writers, as you may have seen. My intention is to lean on developer leaders to choose people within their project to be the beat writer. They can hand it off later, but not divorce the software project from its responsibility to document itself. I think our focus needs to move away from us supplying writers for every documentation need. In open source, writers arise where they are needed. Many developers are more than capable of providing raw content themselves. This is what makes http://developer.mozilla.org tick. So, I'm taking on the developers. Gavin -- I haven't fully given up on writers who come in by themselves and want to pick a beat. Please concentrate your ideas and efforts on attracting talent from the writer pool. This is where we want to point people, so they understand what the job entails: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/HowTo It's obnoxiously easy, especially for someone already involved in the project. cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Sep 18 23:01:57 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:01:57 -0400 Subject: Docs Guide revisited? In-Reply-To: <1126891403.6298.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126891403.6298.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1127084517.3720.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 13:23 -0400, Tammy Fox wrote: > Hi Paul et all, > > Looking at FedoraDocsSchedule, Paul and I are responsible for the task > "Finalize Documentation Guide outline" after FC4 is finished. > > So, seems like we should get cracking on this again. Absolutely! My non-Fedora schedule has unfortunately pushed me behind on this, but it is topping my list. > This is probably related to Karsten's email about him and Mark updating > the XML usage guidelines, since they are currently part of the Docs > Guide. > > Let me know your thoughts. I am assuming other people have visited and added to the DocGuide outline on the wiki as desired. Some of this may simply be rearranging, other stuff is going to require actual writing. I am not opposed to authoring on the wiki if that will get people reading it, commenting, and adding as needed. If other major DocGuide contributors would rather just work directly out of CVS, I'm OK with that too. I will be making some big changes to the example-tutorial so that it is more of a learning tool that we can reference in the DocGuide. The changes to the DocGuide need not hinge on the example-tutorial work, but they will complement each other eventually as we bring them in sync, right? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Mon Sep 19 08:22:52 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:22:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: barage of recruitment In-Reply-To: <1127083127.6258.166.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1127083127.6258.166.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <48947.192.168.100.90.1127118172.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > I've started a barrage of recruitment for relnotes and beat writers, as > you may have seen. > > My intention is to lean on developer leaders to choose people within > their project to be the beat writer. They can hand it off later, but > not divorce the software project from its responsibility to document > itself. > > I think our focus needs to move away from us supplying writers for every > documentation need. > > In open source, writers arise where they are needed. Many developers > are more than capable of providing raw content themselves. This is what > makes http://developer.mozilla.org tick. > > So, I'm taking on the developers. > > Gavin -- I haven't fully given up on writers who come in by themselves > and want to pick a beat. Please concentrate your ideas and efforts on > attracting talent from the writer pool. Got ya. > > This is where we want to point people, so they understand what the job > entails: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/HowTo > > It's obnoxiously easy, especially for someone already involved in the > project. > > cheers - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list > -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From stickster at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 14:19:26 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:19:26 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126908432.6258.65.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> <604aa791050915114827afac0@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050915143454b2899d@mail.gmail.com> <1126908432.6258.65.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1127139566.3945.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Reply to post from f-marketing-l: On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 15:07 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 17:34 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > if you keep that color > > you'll need to use it for another subproject. > > The Documentation Project might like to take that color, seeing as we > are otherwise unrepresented, and it's kind of pretty. > > However, we might want to pause and see what emotions are attached to > those colors and see that the colors fit. Or is that too touchy-feely > for email? > > http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_14.jpg > > I like the red of "core4" for Core. Having "project" and "foundation" > the same color makes sense, they are nearly synonymous. > > Extras will need a new color, or it will clash with Legacy green. The > magenta might do best for Extras, as it's a "variation" on the red. > Sort-of within the same visual palette. > > What other colors do we have? What happens when we "run out" of colors? > Should we have some scheme for picking colors within palettes? How about a charcoal-dark gray (black may be too pronounced) for Docs? That color would be reminiscent of black-on-white text and not a bad choice for FDP. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Mon Sep 19 15:45:34 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:45:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1127139566.3945.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> <604aa791050915114827afac0@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050915143454b2899d@mail.gmail.com> <1126908432.6258.65.camel@erato.phig.org> <1127139566.3945.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46295.192.168.100.90.1127144734.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> > Reply to post from f-marketing-l: > > On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 15:07 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: >> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 17:34 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> > if you keep that color >> > you'll need to use it for another subproject. >> >> The Documentation Project might like to take that color, seeing as we >> are otherwise unrepresented, and it's kind of pretty. >> >> However, we might want to pause and see what emotions are attached to >> those colors and see that the colors fit. Or is that too touchy-feely >> for email? >> >> http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_14.jpg >> >> I like the red of "core4" for Core. Having "project" and "foundation" >> the same color makes sense, they are nearly synonymous. >> >> Extras will need a new color, or it will clash with Legacy green. The >> magenta might do best for Extras, as it's a "variation" on the red. >> Sort-of within the same visual palette. >> >> What other colors do we have? What happens when we "run out" of colors? >> Should we have some scheme for picking colors within palettes? > > How about a charcoal-dark gray (black may be too pronounced) for Docs? > That color would be reminiscent of black-on-white text and not a bad > choice for FDP. Good idea. I've just read and looked at all the logos and stages to get to where they are at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/ Looking pretty cool I must say. > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list > From kwade at redhat.com Mon Sep 19 16:08:27 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:08:27 -0700 Subject: Docs Guide revisited? In-Reply-To: <1127084517.3720.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126891403.6298.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1127084517.3720.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1127146108.6258.197.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-09-18 at 19:01 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I will be making some big changes to the example-tutorial so that it is > more of a learning tool that we can reference in the DocGuide. The > changes to the DocGuide need not hinge on the example-tutorial work, but > they will complement each other eventually as we bring them in sync, > right? This is a bit different from what Mark and I are working on, but perhaps we can combined them. Our scheme, and Mark may not agree with this :), is to make the example- tutorial a self-referential DocBook tool, similar to Tim Waugh's SelfDocBook. What I want to do is make all of the example XML usage be modular components that are pulled into the example-tutorial as entities. These same entities are also pulled into the Doc Guide, where context is wrapped around them. This way we have one single-source for XML mark-up usage, that is used in two very meaningful ways. This might take some bash or Perl trickery to get perfect. Ideally, this can be done in steps. That is, Mark and I can finish the XML mark-up guidelines, and those can be used in either location. Paul, do you think that the XML guidelines can be worked into your new ideas for the example-tutorial? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Mon Sep 19 17:40:57 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:40:57 -0400 Subject: regrets for tomorrow's meeting Message-ID: <432EF829.9060906@redhat.com> Hi All, I have a doc appt during the meeting tomorrow, and so will miss it. But I will try to weigh in on some current issues later today. Cheers, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From kwade at redhat.com Mon Sep 19 19:18:09 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 12:18:09 -0700 Subject: list of sub-project stakeholders Message-ID: <1127157489.6258.233.camel@erato.phig.org> Please help me compile/confirm this list. These are the people who must immediately know the following: i) 23 September is the deadline to pick a beat writer from _within_ the project ii) New processes make it easy and productive to create content flows from within existing development processes I'm going to write up an email for this purpose, and contact these leaders/stakeholders immediately about their areas. If I get push-back, I may need the help of Greg, Elliot, and other leaders. I removed the beats from this list that are already taken. For example, Josh Bressers contacted me just a few minutes ago and is doing the security beat (sweet!). Beats Project(s) Leader/Stakeholder ====================================================================== Kernel Base OS Tim Burke Desktop Desktop Havoc Pennington Printing CUPS? Tim Waugh Server Tools RH Base OS team Florian La Roche File Systems Kernel Stephen Tweedie, Tim Burke File Servers Storage/Clustering Kevin Anderson Web Servers Apache Joe Orton? Devel Tools Tools Elena Zannoni GCC GCC Ulrich Drepper Java GCJ, App Server Anthony Green, Patrick Macdonald Samba Base OS Florian La Roche System Daemons Base OS Florian La Roche Multimedia Desktop? Havoc Pennington Networking Kernel Tim Burke Xorg Desktop Havoc Pennington Arch Specific Kernel (hardware) Peter Martuccelli Database Servers App Engineering Patrick Macdonald Thanks - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tfox at redhat.com Mon Sep 19 20:08:14 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:08:14 -0400 Subject: list of sub-project stakeholders In-Reply-To: <1127157489.6258.233.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1127157489.6258.233.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1127160494.5832.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-09-19 at 12:18 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Please help me compile/confirm this list. These are the people who must > immediately know the following: > > i) 23 September is the deadline to pick a beat writer from _within_ the > project > > ii) New processes make it easy and productive to create content flows > from within existing development processes > > I'm going to write up an email for this purpose, and contact these > leaders/stakeholders immediately about their areas. > > If I get push-back, I may need the help of Greg, Elliot, and other > leaders. > > I removed the beats from this list that are already taken. For example, > Josh Bressers contacted me just a few minutes ago and is doing the > security beat (sweet!). > > Beats Project(s) Leader/Stakeholder > ====================================================================== > Kernel Base OS Tim Burke > Desktop Desktop Havoc Pennington > Printing CUPS? Tim Waugh > Server Tools RH Base OS team Florian La Roche Base OS is run by Ken Reilly now, so he might be the better person to contact. > File Systems Kernel Stephen Tweedie, Tim Burke > File Servers Storage/Clustering Kevin Anderson > Web Servers Apache Joe Orton? > Devel Tools Tools Elena Zannoni > GCC GCC Ulrich Drepper > Java GCJ, App Server Anthony Green, > Patrick Macdonald > Samba Base OS Florian La Roche > System Daemons Base OS Florian La Roche Ditto for these two. > Multimedia Desktop? Havoc Pennington > Networking Kernel Tim Burke > Xorg Desktop Havoc Pennington > Arch Specific Kernel (hardware) Peter Martuccelli > Database Servers App Engineering Patrick Macdonald > > Thanks - Karsten Does SELinux and ExecShield fall under Security with Josh? Tammy From kwade at redhat.com Mon Sep 19 20:21:12 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:21:12 -0700 Subject: list of sub-project stakeholders In-Reply-To: <1127160494.5832.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1127157489.6258.233.camel@erato.phig.org> <1127160494.5832.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1127161272.6258.255.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-09-19 at 16:08 -0400, Tammy Fox wrote: > Base OS is run by Ken Reilly now, so he might be the better person to > contact. True, but I was trying to get people in more of a team management position. I don't want to go all the way to the top of the food chain unless I have to. :) > Does SELinux and ExecShield fall under Security with Josh? Both do, but I have volunteered to continue the SELinux beat. Coincidentally, Josh is the upstream PoC, too. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Mon Sep 19 20:30:36 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:30:36 -0400 Subject: Docs Guide revisited? In-Reply-To: <1127146108.6258.197.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1126891403.6298.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1127084517.3720.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1127146108.6258.197.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <432F1FEC.9080708@redhat.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Sun, 2005-09-18 at 19:01 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >>I will be making some big changes to the example-tutorial so that it is >>more of a learning tool that we can reference in the DocGuide. The >>changes to the DocGuide need not hinge on the example-tutorial work, but >>they will complement each other eventually as we bring them in sync, >>right? > > > This is a bit different from what Mark and I are working on, but perhaps > we can combined them. > > Our scheme, and Mark may not agree with this :), is to make the example- > tutorial a self-referential DocBook tool, similar to Tim Waugh's > SelfDocBook. I agree with the concept - I'm simply skeptical that we can have meaningful, self-referential examples for all kinds of markup we might want to mention in the policy. I'm officially all for it. Really. Furthermore, are we going to do things like support (or *recommend*) XIncludes for document construction, rather than using external entities? Doing so allows _every_ file to contain a DOCTYPE statement, ensuring that it can be validated? Just thinking out loud... Cheers, Mark > > What I want to do is make all of the example XML usage be modular > components that are pulled into the example-tutorial as entities. These > same entities are also pulled into the Doc Guide, where context is > wrapped around them. > > This way we have one single-source for XML mark-up usage, that is used > in two very meaningful ways. > > This might take some bash or Perl trickery to get perfect. > > Ideally, this can be done in steps. That is, Mark and I can finish the > XML mark-up guidelines, and those can be used in either location. > > Paul, do you think that the XML guidelines can be worked into your new > ideas for the example-tutorial? > > - Karsten > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From mjohnson at redhat.com Mon Sep 19 20:30:39 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:30:39 -0400 Subject: Docs Guide revisited? In-Reply-To: <1127084517.3720.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126891403.6298.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1127084517.3720.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <432F1FEF.50109@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 13:23 -0400, Tammy Fox wrote: > >>Hi Paul et all, >> >>Looking at FedoraDocsSchedule, Paul and I are responsible for the task >>"Finalize Documentation Guide outline" after FC4 is finished. >> >>So, seems like we should get cracking on this again. > > > Absolutely! My non-Fedora schedule has unfortunately pushed me behind > on this, but it is topping my list. > >>This is probably related to Karsten's email about him and Mark updating >>the XML usage guidelines, since they are currently part of the Docs >>Guide. Yep, the plan is that the "Markup Policy Guidelines" (MPG) will eventually make it into the Docs Guide. (But see followup message..) > I am assuming other people have visited and added to the DocGuide > outline on the wiki as desired. I tried to edit the page, but can't figure out how. Nor can I make a homepage. Ugh. (/me feels like a wiki idiot. feel free to help me off-list...) I was going to add to Chap V, sec C.: C-c C-e insert-element C-c C-r tag-region As well as a link to the "Emacs/PSGML Quick Reference": http://www.snee.com/bob/sgmlfree/psgmqref.html Cheers, Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From kwade at redhat.com Tue Sep 20 21:07:05 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:07:05 -0700 Subject: IRC log FDSCo 20 Sep 2005 Message-ID: <1127250425.12820.93.camel@erato.phig.org> Sep 20 13:06:14 Sep 20 13:06:44 hi folks Sep 20 13:06:45 Hello all Sep 20 13:06:52 hi Sep 20 13:07:02 brb Sep 20 13:07:04 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule fyi Sep 20 13:07:19 I'm editing it live, and will do some iterative saves throughout Sep 20 13:07:23 oh, wait Sep 20 13:07:25 wrong page :) Sep 20 13:07:49 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule fyi Sep 20 13:09:32 --> megacoder (n=reynolds at adsl-065-005-229-109.sip.lft.bellsouth.net) has joined #fedora-docs Sep 20 13:09:32 Hang on, brb Sep 20 13:10:17 --- mu_revenge is now known as mumumu_ee Sep 20 13:10:18 * quaid settles into his desk char Sep 20 13:11:16 I think the first item is done Sep 20 13:11:45 oh, no, it's not, but I'll do it by the end of the meeting Sep 20 13:12:28 on the second, Tommy sent out his request ... Sep 20 13:12:44 I wasn't impressed with the answers, in that no one stepped up to go all the way Sep 20 13:13:02 docs toolchain must be low on the list of priorities. Sep 20 13:13:43 megacoder: I'm expending all my politicapital this week on the relnotes beats, so I'm going to move the target date up a week to give me a chance to recover Sep 20 13:13:49 The silence was resounding. Sep 20 13:14:00 Perhaps try an external list Sep 20 13:14:11 external to Fedora? Sep 20 13:14:17 Yes Sep 20 13:14:28 Such as? Sep 20 13:14:37 hard to get more gcj expertise than RH has Sep 20 13:15:06 DocBook > PDF must be a real world issue Sep 20 13:15:25 http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel- java-list/2005-September/msg00015.html is the thread, btw Sep 20 13:15:40 I've spoken to someone who still uses SGML for their apps because of it Sep 20 13:17:15 Perhaps try: http://www.oasis- open.org/docbook/mailinglist/ Sep 20 13:17:30 actually, yeah Sep 20 13:17:39 Rather than a Java specific list Sep 20 13:19:10 docbook-apps ist he one mrj usually recommends Sep 20 13:19:43 it's where the techies talk Sep 20 13:19:57 Yeah, this is a real issue. What do Samba do, as when I helped tag up the Amanda docs to Docbook, Stefan used the Samba build tree to generate the PDFs Sep 20 13:20:45 megacoder: can you email docbook-apps and track the thread? You don't need to subscribe, just use the online archives, and I'm subscribed to help the conversation along. Sep 20 13:21:08 ok, will beg again. Sep 20 13:21:19 thx Sep 20 13:21:43 Just looked at Samba docs page: http://www.samba.org/samba/docs/ Sep 20 13:22:03 They are offering PDFs of daily builds Sep 20 13:22:17 we will soon :) Sep 20 13:22:31 So like G2 says, they presumably have a automated system in place Sep 20 13:22:35 Sopwith has the autobuild on his to-do list, and we just need to get the PDF working Sep 20 13:23:00 G2: what are they using? SGML and jadetex? Sep 20 13:23:18 elliss: I tried porting some of our docs, but the build failed. THey use some kind of hybrid system Sep 20 13:23:30 let me check my AManda archive Sep 20 13:23:33 2 secs Sep 20 13:23:46 the PDFs on http://www.samba.org/samba/docs/ say they are generated from LaTeX with hyperref package Sep 20 13:23:53 are you sure they are written in DocBook XML? Sep 20 13:24:26 I tagged them Sep 20 13:24:29 Amanda that is Sep 20 13:24:39 probably does a db2tex Sep 20 13:24:39 ah, ok, maybe they are moving that way then Sep 20 13:24:52 quaid: maybe so Sep 20 13:25:06 http://www.amanda.org/docs/using.html **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Sep 20 13:25:28 2005 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Sep 20 13:25:33 2005 Sep 20 13:25:33 --> You are now talking on #fedora-docs Sep 20 13:25:33 --- Topic for #fedora-docs is Fedora Documentation Project -=- Discussions between writers, editors, and developers about documentation -=- For end-user support, use #fedora -=- http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -=- Interested in documentation? http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters Sep 20 13:25:33 --- Topic for #fedora-docs set by quaid at Mon Aug 15 09:51:32 2005 Sep 20 13:25:37 I hate X-chat Sep 20 13:25:41 I really doooooo! Sep 20 13:26:06 ok, moving on Sep 20 13:26:23 in that, I don't want to trudge down another sidepath for tools Sep 20 13:26:32 I really really really want us to be on the main path Sep 20 13:27:30 * quaid makes a note to contact agreen about this, too Sep 20 13:28:14 I'm removing the target date on the staging/autobuild server until we hear more from Sopwith Sep 20 13:28:31 Yea Sep 20 13:28:38 I am really backlogged at this point. Sep 20 13:28:40 I'm also removing the codename, it just got usurped in my life, and we aren't really using it anyway Sep 20 13:28:55 Here's the Makefile for the Docs tree that Amanda and Samba use: http://www.perl.me.uk/Makefile Sep 20 13:29:06 Looks like latex and all sorts Sep 20 13:29:12 yeek Sep 20 13:29:13 yeah Sep 20 13:29:28 *shudder* Sep 20 13:29:44 xsltproc and pngs in their PDFs!!!! Sep 20 13:29:50 * G2 drools Sep 20 13:30:08 G2: pdfetex was used to generate the PDF FWIW Sep 20 13:30:20 k Sep 20 13:30:52 Can't we steel ideas from their build tree? Sep 20 13:31:08 s/steel/steal Sep 20 13:31:15 yes Sep 20 13:31:26 but see above comments about paths Sep 20 13:31:26 And they do Plucker format too Sep 20 13:31:36 I don't see why not -- they're doing xsltproc to go to latex, then pdflatex to make the pdf's -- I'm not good at reading Makefiles, so sue me :-) Sep 20 13:31:48 At least, I think that's what they're doing... Sep 20 13:31:48 quaid: ? Sep 20 13:31:54 we are trying to use DocBook as close to the way that DocBook developers are doing it. Sep 20 13:32:07 quaid: Can they build PDFs? Sep 20 13:32:09 the mainline direction is Saxon and FOP Sep 20 13:32:17 Hm Sep 20 13:32:24 sure, because they are not dedicated to FLOSS Sep 20 13:32:44 so they use a proprietary XSL-FO engine Sep 20 13:32:46 I don't understand how reliance on Java is dedication to FOSS, but maybe that's just me Sep 20 13:33:00 stickster: that's why we're trying to use gcj Sep 20 13:33:08 it compiles fun under other JREs Sep 20 13:33:15 Of course, I forgot. Sep 20 13:33:32 stickster: I know about the wider issues of Java, but ... Sep 20 13:33:39 s/fun/fine/ Sep 20 13:33:41 I remember though, in the days of RH7.2, PDF generation worked Sep 20 13:33:46 yep Sep 20 13:33:53 What changed? Sep 20 13:33:55 and we did the RHEL 4 docs with SGML because of that Sep 20 13:34:06 G2: that was DocBook SGML Sep 20 13:34:15 Doh, aye that's right Sep 20 13:34:17 yeah, XSLT is different Sep 20 13:34:29 I know the difference ;-) Just forgot Sep 20 13:34:31 look, internally we're doing the same thing Sep 20 13:34:39 yep, much better for ->XHTML production, not so good for ->PDF Sep 20 13:34:49 the difference is, we have the option of compiling FOP using a proprietary JRE if we need to in order to make our deadlines. Sep 20 13:35:14 but, it's in RH's best interest overall to get this stuff in Extras and compiling under gcj Sep 20 13:35:19 I just need to make someone see that light Sep 20 13:35:23 * G2 senses quaid irritation and will stop ushing ;-) Sep 20 13:35:30 pushing rather Sep 20 13:35:35 well, no, not irritation :) Sep 20 13:35:40 but I think I see the line clearly Sep 20 13:36:00 and I'm happy to reiterate it, or point at past threads where we resolved this to my satisfaction Sep 20 13:36:10 ok, a question then Sep 20 13:36:15 go one. Sep 20 13:36:30 does anyone want to personally pursue one of these alternate paths so we can get an interim solution in our toolchain? Sep 20 13:36:33 --- mumumu_ee is now known as mu_furo_e Sep 20 13:37:11 I'm sketchy about want to assign such a resource, but if anyone wants to grab the GNOME tools and rework them ... well, it's all GPL, right :) Sep 20 13:37:36 REmind me of the Gnome tools? Sep 20 13:37:46 My plate is full Sep 20 13:38:08 G2: sorry, samba Sep 20 13:38:10 I meant Sep 20 13:38:28 I'll leave the question hanging for now. Sep 20 13:38:49 I would love to if I had time Sep 20 13:38:57 if you all think I'm taking us blindly or idiotically in the wrong direction, let's move this to the list Sep 20 13:39:03 I've bookmarked everything just in case Sep 20 13:39:03 talk about alternatives, etc. Sep 20 13:39:16 ok Sep 20 13:39:30 about the staging server, I'll see what I can do to score Sopwith some help that he can use Sep 20 13:39:56 on to trans :) Sep 20 13:40:04 Tommy got the i18n version out, awesome Sep 20 13:40:12 Well done!!!! Sep 20 13:40:20 translators are signing up for CVS in the onsie- twosies Sep 20 13:40:44 no threesies ;-) Sep 20 13:41:04 yeah, too bad Sep 20 13:41:13 Quick try of the Samba docs: compilation error: file http://db2latex.sourceforge.net/xsl/qandaset.mod.xsl line 366 element template Sep 20 13:41:30 I have no idea how I'm going to hook up RPM building with the translation aspect Sep 20 13:41:34 Seen this before. I think I asked the docs project about this last year Sep 20 13:41:46 stickster: you don't have to, for the most part Sep 20 13:41:54 stickster: at least, not for the first round Sep 20 13:42:32 stickster: the relnotes are in fedora-release, and we are going to put the IG in there too, right? so it's not your worry,just make sure the -de.html is there. Sep 20 13:42:48 about trans, I need to find out what our solution for CVS is going to be for FC5 Sep 20 13:43:13 I think we're going to use our CVS and move it all to trans CVS later, like /cvs/docs to /cvs/trans Sep 20 13:43:36 but their CVS is still on elvis.r.c and needs to move to cvs.f.r.c Sep 20 13:43:38 and etc. Sep 20 13:43:56 downside is, we don't get to use their file locking capabilities and automatic PO generation, etc. Sep 20 13:44:10 so, it raises the bar on the translators, they need to be savvy Sep 20 13:45:10 * quaid writes email to sarahs Sep 20 13:45:45 recruit for beat writers Sep 20 13:45:57 we've had two sign ups from the onslaught so far Sep 20 13:46:03 today I'm going to pressure the project stakeholders. Sep 20 13:46:31 Shall I e-mail the Samba team to ask about using their build tree for the time being? I can work out the technical details sometime tomorrow, hopefully Sep 20 13:46:57 you mean their actual build system? Sep 20 13:47:20 John is on the Open Source Consortium Executive Council, as I am, so I can get hold of him direct. Sep 20 13:47:24 The docs Sep 20 13:47:39 Well, so could you guys probably too. Sep 20 13:47:50 G2: do you mean, their servers grab from CVS, do the builds, and make URLs available for us to mirror over? Sep 20 13:48:02 or you mean, use their tree/tools on our servers? Sep 20 13:48:10 quaid: tools. Sep 20 13:48:21 I remember Stefan asking them and getting permission Sep 20 13:48:33 right, if we could all get local, working versions, that would allow us to manually create and post them Sep 20 13:48:36 which is better than nothing Sep 20 13:48:52 are their tools non-free? Sep 20 13:48:53 * G2 didn't mean to sound stupid re the council comment. Sep 20 13:49:09 :D Sep 20 13:49:12 nah, use your contacts :) Sep 20 13:49:29 quaid: no, but if I ask, I can get tips/help on the conversion , like Stefan did Sep 20 13:49:31 brb Sep 20 13:49:39 anyway, yeah, if we can get a free toolchain that works on FC 3 and/or 4, that would help Sep 20 13:51:05 aye Sep 20 13:51:31 * G2 is not still doing pirate day talk, aye is a Scotland thing ;-) Sep 20 13:51:34 * quaid sees the table is borken Sep 20 13:51:41 aye Sep 20 13:52:10 elliss: so, about MoinMoin output to DocBook ... Sep 20 13:52:27 nman64 also has an installation and we can ask him to run some tests for us ... Sep 20 13:52:36 here's what our need is: Sep 20 13:53:01 two days before trans freeze, we take a snapshot of the Wiki, meaning we convert all of Docs/Beats.* into DocBook Sep 20 13:53:23 what would be _awesome_ is if we could enough lead time to generate a process or even some scripts that help automate cleaning up the XML Sep 20 13:54:43 so, if we had some samples of input and desired output, megacoder could use some script-fu to chop the
and other unecc. XML, run the xmlformat, and make available for us to use or paste into the relnotes XML. Sep 20 13:55:01 sounds ambitious Sep 20 13:55:05 It's pretty easy to produce samples manually Sep 20 13:55:33 I've dropped source from FedoraWiki into my laptop's MoinMoin install Sep 20 13:55:46 cool Sep 20 13:56:02 what you are doing with the admin guide is probably a good example to use for now Sep 20 13:56:25 can you output to XML and put the whole thing up as a tarball somewhere, then post to f-docs-l? Sep 20 13:57:12 admin guide is still a skeleton Sep 20 13:57:38 I can yoink something like XenQuckstart in a couple of minutes Sep 20 13:58:00 I keep mentioning it because it's a prettry good example Sep 20 13:58:04 pretty Sep 20 13:58:15 Though only single page of course Sep 20 13:58:50 I'll post something and send a link to the list tonight Sep 20 13:59:38 oh, right, yeah, FedoraXenQuickstart or whatever Sep 20 13:59:40 thx Sep 20 14:00:06 Note that it's only DocBook fragment Sep 20 14:00:30 The admonition things are particularly hideous, as well :) Sep 20 14:01:20 So manually tweaking is probably going to be required to polish up anything from the Wiki Sep 20 14:01:25 ok Sep 20 14:01:42 but if it's consistently ugly, that's something we can create first a process, then some scripts out of Sep 20 14:01:55 wow, we made it to the end of priority 1 items Sep 20 14:02:06 in only fifty real minutes Sep 20 14:02:24 everyone, please review the rest of FedoraDocsSchedule Sep 20 14:02:45 see what you need to move stuff forward, change the Wiki to reflect whatever, ask questions on list, etc. Sep 20 14:02:53 I made a mockup .src.rpm for the install- guide Sep 20 14:03:14 seems like some of the docs guide tasks could be combined Sep 20 14:03:18 ya! Sep 20 14:03:20 Definitely Sep 20 14:03:31 * quaid piled tasks in last week :) Sep 20 14:03:58 let's continue the thread of docs guide updates on the list and then we can figure out how to combine Sep 20 14:04:31 k Sep 20 14:04:32 Sent e-mail to John Terpstra Sep 20 14:05:10 * quaid fixes the broken Wiki table Sep 20 14:05:28 -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Sep 20 21:51:15 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:51:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: list of sub-project stakeholders In-Reply-To: <1127157489.6258.233.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1127157489.6258.233.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: I believe Jonathan Blanford & Chris Blizzard will be taking over for Havoc Pennington. Tim Burke is transitioning out of Kernel stuff into Fedora land (he will be leading the Fedora team inside Engineering, apparently). It might make sense to talk with Brian Stevens to find out the up-to-date stakeholders for these areas. He can at least point you in the right direction... Best, -- Elliot Pioneers get the Arrows. Settlers get the Land. On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > Please help me compile/confirm this list. These are the people who must > immediately know the following: > > i) 23 September is the deadline to pick a beat writer from _within_ the > project > > ii) New processes make it easy and productive to create content flows > from within existing development processes > > I'm going to write up an email for this purpose, and contact these > leaders/stakeholders immediately about their areas. > > If I get push-back, I may need the help of Greg, Elliot, and other > leaders. > > I removed the beats from this list that are already taken. For example, > Josh Bressers contacted me just a few minutes ago and is doing the > security beat (sweet!). > > Beats Project(s) Leader/Stakeholder > ====================================================================== > Kernel Base OS Tim Burke > Desktop Desktop Havoc Pennington > Printing CUPS? Tim Waugh > Server Tools RH Base OS team Florian La Roche > File Systems Kernel Stephen Tweedie, Tim Burke > File Servers Storage/Clustering Kevin Anderson > Web Servers Apache Joe Orton? > Devel Tools Tools Elena Zannoni > GCC GCC Ulrich Drepper > Java GCJ, App Server Anthony Green, > Patrick Macdonald > Samba Base OS Florian La Roche > System Daemons Base OS Florian La Roche > Multimedia Desktop? Havoc Pennington > Networking Kernel Tim Burke > Xorg Desktop Havoc Pennington > Arch Specific Kernel (hardware) Peter Martuccelli > Database Servers App Engineering Patrick Macdonald From sopwith at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 17:01:49 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:01:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Your membership has been approved In-Reply-To: <20050824115541.be1b96b5.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20050824115541.be1b96b5.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > It's just a nuisance really, but the "approved" message that gets posted > contains _no_ information identifying exactly whom has just been > approved. Can there be something added, even if it's just a system > name, same as we get in the "waiting to be approved" mailing? Just catching up on back messages... If you look at who the message is sent to, that will show you who was approved. I did add the account name to the message just now, which should help a little as well. Thanks for the suggestion, -- Elliot Pioneers get the Arrows. Settlers get the Land. From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Sun Sep 25 20:18:37 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:18:37 -0500 Subject: Tools for Documentation PDF output In-Reply-To: <200509242225.11154.philip.rodrigues@chch.ox.ac.uk> References: <200509242225.11154.philip.rodrigues@chch.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20050925151837.bf040794.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Philip Rodrigues , spake thus: > I hope you don't mind me emailing you directly. I'd just like to add a little > to what I said on the docbook-apps list about dblatex for PDF generation from > DocBook sources. Hopefully, I can provide a little information that can help > you to decide whether dblatex is a suitable option for you. > > As you may have found from the sourceforge site, dblatex uses a few tools: The > main DocBook -> LaTeX conversion is done by XSLT stylesheets. Because of the > vast differences between XML and LaTeX, a further step is necessary (or at > least, is used - perhaps it could be dispensed with): the LaTeX document > produced is run through a little Perl script which does some things like > escaping of LaTeX special characters, and replacing some entities which don't > get through properly. pdflatex is then run on the LaTeX code to produce the > output PDF. This is all wrapped in a shell script, so you just run one > command to go from DocBook all the way to PDF. > > I detailed all that to point out that dblatex uses something of a mish-mash of > different technologies, which might not appeal to you. However, it doesn't > use Java or jade, which appeals to use here at KDE :-). > > The project is based (I think) on db2latex, a set of XSL stylesheets which did > the same thing, but without the Perl post-processing. Sadly, db2latex is > unmaintained, but dblatex is very actively maintained, and I've found the > author both helpful and very quick to fix any problems I come up with. > > Honesty compels me to say that dblatex isn't quite "there" yet - docbook is so > huge that it's quite possible to find a permutation of docbook elements that > will produce invalid LaTeX code and therefore break PDF generation for that > document. However, whenever I've presented such an issue to Beno?t Guillon, > the author, he's found a solution quickly. All that said, from the ~250 > docbook documents in the KDE project, I managed to get it down to only 1 doc > producing invalid output with dblatex. > > Another current limitation is that only a few languages are definitely > supported. This will change, since I will need support for the many languages > in KDE. > > I hope that all helps you to make up your mind about dblatex :-). If you have > any other questions, feel free to ask me - if I don't know the answer, I'll > pass you on to Beno?t. You can also subscribe to the dblatex-users[1] mailing > list, where much dblatex discussion happens. > > Regards, > Philip Philip, Thanks for taking the time for such a comphrensive response. I've taken the liberty of CC'ing it to other FDP Steering Committte members to keep them updated. Thanks again for the input! Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 21:41:27 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:41:27 -0400 Subject: IRC log FDSCo 27 Sep 2005 Message-ID: <1127857287.3328.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Sep 27 16:15:48 Sep 27 16:15:59 Anything interesting on the packaging front ? Sep 27 16:16:08 Non-docs? Sep 27 16:16:21 Actually, I made some strides around my vacation time on the packaging issue Sep 27 16:16:34 OK, I can go first. I sent out the native-FOP compile solicitation Sep 27 16:16:34 once again and was deafened by the silence. However, it seems that Sep 27 16:16:34 the KDE folk are using "dblatex" for the PDF rendering. I just Sep 27 16:16:34 yesterday upgraded to FC4 and got dblatex installed. Haven't had Sep 27 16:16:34 time to try it out, though. Sep 27 16:17:03 megacoder: I've been playing with dblatex too Sep 27 16:17:18 the SAmba docs use it for their PDF generation Sep 27 16:17:25 Well, it's obvious that we're not going to get anywhere by FC5 timeframe on the native-FOP front Sep 27 16:17:41 Any first-time results on the dblatex trial? Sep 27 16:17:50 The Samba docs don't even build, so I couldn't even start to mod them for FC Sep 27 16:18:11 John Terpstra says they use Debian and Suse 9.3 Sep 27 16:18:39 But there's some error about dup xml definitions that I can't nail Sep 27 16:18:41 Is dblatex part of FE? or FC? Sep 27 16:18:46 hi, sorry, I am in meetings on the phone and in a different timezone from home, but I'm present Sep 27 16:18:49 stickster: no Sep 27 16:19:11 G2: Ah, what are the chances of packaging for FE? Sep 27 16:19:13 I also got a response that RenderX may be willing to provide FDP with a non-cost license to their XEP renderer. Individuals could download their no-cost version for local draft rendering. Sep 27 16:19:26 megacoder: Not FOSS enough Sep 27 16:19:27 *I'm* even present. Gee. Sep 27 16:19:29 won't work for Fedoar, the RenderX solution Sep 27 16:19:53 but a working dblatex would be cool, I'm in for the Band-Aid(TM) Sep 27 16:19:56 Didn't think that would fly, either. Still, I wanted to pass it on. Sep 27 16:20:07 megacoder: Good of you to do so :-) Sep 27 16:20:09 stickster: I installed the db2latex cvs rpm from 2003, as per recommended by Samba, but it needs xml-utils Sep 27 16:20:27 That explains your html-xml-utils thingie -- was there a reason not to use Provides: xml-utils? Sep 27 16:20:51 stickster: Doh, I totally forgot you could do that. Sep 27 16:20:58 stickster: Yo sould have piped up Sep 27 16:21:07 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=168920 Sep 27 16:21:16 I'm sorry, I thought it might have been verboten or cause someone namespace heartburn Sep 27 16:21:34 I'm piping up in the bug now Sep 27 16:21:34 stickster: I think it might have Sep 27 16:21:59 stickster: but if the db2latex is not packaged for FC anyway, it doesn't matter. I can rewrite it Sep 27 16:22:17 so name is whatever we what it to be. Sep 27 16:22:34 that db2latex RPM was a SUSE one anyway Sep 27 16:23:20 G2: Still want bug comment then? Sep 27 16:23:23 --- TSEKINE is now known as tseki_bot Sep 27 16:23:42 is anyone tracking/editing the DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule wiki? Sep 27 16:23:48 stickster: nah. I;ll do the new one. Sep 27 16:23:59 G2: ok Sep 27 16:24:01 quaid: I forgot to update the writers page this week. Sep 27 16:24:18 G2: :) Sep 27 16:24:23 quaid: We were doing AOB first, but I think that went by the wayside Sep 27 16:24:31 I'll edit the FedoraDocsSchedule, just in case Sep 27 16:24:34 * quaid locks the edit Sep 27 16:24:38 --- gregdek is now known as gregdek_gone Sep 27 16:24:58 quaid: Do you want to take over? Sorry to step on toes Sep 27 16:25:18 no, please go on Sep 27 16:25:21 just offering to help Sep 27 16:25:22 stickster was rathe quick to step in, I might add ;-) Sep 27 16:25:32 Yeah, only 15 min late y'know Sep 27 16:25:37 he was supposed to do it quicker! 15 whole minutes ... Sep 27 16:25:40 :D Sep 27 16:25:47 Just wait until there's an estate to settle... Sep 27 16:26:00 Ha Sep 27 16:26:01 * quaid waves the ink dry on the prenup Sep 27 16:26:12 * G2 heard a faint, "down with quaid, down with quaid", from sticksters corner ;-) Sep 27 16:26:18 I see that quaid has the next 2.5 items on the schedule, so he better pipe down Sep 27 16:26:23 :-D Sep 27 16:26:48 *BANG* This has been a test... if this had been a real coup, all you bastards would be first against the wall Sep 27 16:27:34 * stickster hears crickets Sep 27 16:27:38 s/bastards/nice fellow committee members/g; Sep 27 16:27:40 Now we're faced with the age-old question: what do you do with the revolutionary after the revolution? Sep 27 16:27:51 sorry, see, I'm on the phone ... go ahead and continue without me, I'll just watch and edit the wiki :) Sep 27 16:27:54 np Sep 27 16:28:01 if you want to AOB instead, rock on Sep 27 16:28:18 aob? Sep 27 16:28:22 OK... let's skip quaid for now so we can get out of here by 2100 UTC Sep 27 16:28:25 all other business Sep 27 16:28:25 all Other Business Sep 27 16:28:45 XML from MoinMoin -- elliss ? Sep 27 16:28:47 of course. just checking who was awake. Sep 27 16:29:00 megacoder: you sly dog ;-) Sep 27 16:29:22 I sent a mail with a basic doc Sep 27 16:29:23 Whoops, that should have been: Recruitment, G2 Sep 27 16:29:24 Has anyone got PDFs working without gjc? ie. SUun JAva? Sep 27 16:29:46 stickster: done bugger all the past week re that Sep 27 16:30:04 Right! Next Sep 27 16:30:07 I should rope some of the newcomers in Sep 27 16:30:22 Yeah, I've got a FOP patch that lets Apache FOP (sun jvm) build any document I've tried it on. Sep 27 16:30:57 But, again, it ain't free software Sep 27 16:31:22 megacoder: Do the PDFs work and look nice? Got one I could see, out of interest? Sep 27 16:31:37 G2: Yeah, how about doing the following: draft a short, sweet note asking people to activate; send to FDSCo list for comment, then send to people listed on Wiki Sep 27 16:31:58 Sure. I'll send you a link. I'm still recovering from my FC3=>FC4 reload. Sep 27 16:32:10 thanks. Sep 27 16:32:16 stickster: Will do in the morning. Sep 27 16:32:25 G2: Excellent, rock on Sep 27 16:32:37 stickster: party dude ;-) Sep 27 16:32:41 OK then... elliss and MoinMoin -> XML Sep 27 16:32:52 * G2 notes the early ninties slang Sep 27 16:33:22 Re: mail. We could use extra help on the other draft docs on the Wiki, if they'd like something larger than relnotes Sep 27 16:33:38 MoinMoin > XML... Sep 27 16:34:02 It produces DocBook OK Sep 27 16:34:03 elliss: right on, re: extra help... make sure you coordinate a bit about that in G2's "please help us" note Sep 27 16:34:34 One note for both, I thought Sep 27 16:34:38 elliss: By the way, the work you've been putting in on the Wiki has been really notable Sep 27 16:34:45 elliss: That works Sep 27 16:35:12 Can I pimp the #fedora-wiki channel ? Sep 27 16:35:28 It's just nman64 and me in there currently. Sep 27 16:35:30 Sure, whatever works to bring in talented, willing writers Sep 27 16:35:37 Or even just willing writers at this point :-) Sep 27 16:35:37 You mean I can have company in there?! Sep 27 16:36:06 I meant for the minutes, really Sep 27 16:36:17 Consider it done Sep 27 16:36:19 Since they get linked to various places Sep 27 16:36:26 ***MINUTES NOTE: Pimp #fedora-wiki Sep 27 16:36:43 :-) Sep 27 16:36:53 Job done Sep 27 16:37:01 Export stuff Sep 27 16:37:16 I sent a doc that exports Sep 27 16:37:43 I'm currently writing a couple of sections of the Admin Guide for a bigger test Sep 27 16:38:08 Known issues are documented on Wiki as I hit them Sep 27 16:38:24 I saw some of this done already, and I think you wrote some authoring notes too, right? Sep 27 16:38:30 Like how to use admonitions, etc... Sep 27 16:38:48 Yes Sep 27 16:38:52 * stickster does big Golf Clap(tm) for elliss Sep 27 16:39:04 Linkage: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WritingUsingTheWiki Sep 27 16:39:06 <-- avatraxiom has quit (Remote closed the connection) Sep 27 16:39:23 Mapping Wiki > DocBook isn't fully possible Sep 27 16:39:37 Wiki isn't rich enough Sep 27 16:39:55 No, because some Wiki is more presentation oriented rather than conte[xn]t oriented Sep 27 16:40:07 That's it exactly Sep 27 16:40:10 If it gets us close that would be a big help, since the whole mission is to get people involved Sep 27 16:40:37 The issue is standardising on a compromise Sep 27 16:40:39 megacoder: don't forget to send that pdf link ;-) Sep 27 16:40:52 We have xmlformat and other tools to help... as we go we might find a group of scripts to further XMLize the output of the converter Sep 27 16:40:54 working.. may take a bit. patience, Prudence. Sep 27 16:41:14 Either don't try to designate filename, command, application etc. Sep 27 16:41:31 And tag it it all during conversion Sep 27 16:41:45 Or overload the italic, bold etc. Sep 27 16:42:00 elliss: I think the former is going to work better Sep 27 16:42:08 Work better != work easier Sep 27 16:42:22 I currently think the opposite Sep 27 16:42:44 If we overload presentation markup, it gets very confusing very easily, and you have to invent a lot more rules for people to follow... more rules -> less participation Sep 27 16:42:57 Italic all reserved terms ? Sep 27 16:43:17 I'm thinking about bigger docs Sep 27 16:43:53 One person will have to do this by hand for each doc Sep 27 16:43:56 Yes, but we are trying to get people to contribute to *all* docs, so the rules need to work for small docs too, i.e. not hamstringing people for pitching in :-) Sep 27 16:44:16 elliss: True, but with the right tools it's not as bad as it seems Sep 27 16:44:40 which tools ? Sep 27 16:44:49 Plus, markup can be done by anybody who knows DocBook XML... so many people have indicated they would help with that part, it's almost a non-issue -- unless they all back out of course :-D Sep 27 16:45:08 Whatever tools with which the marker-upper is comfortable Sep 27 16:45:41 Everyone here would give a different answer, so it really doesn't matter, as long as the markup is done according to standards Sep 27 16:46:37 In case I'm being too general in my comments, note that I'm talking about tools for marking the converted proto-XML into fully marked up XML, and the standards for that are documented in the DocGuide Sep 27 16:47:06 Comments? Sep 27 16:47:17 tools != automation Sep 27 16:47:23 Yes, that's correct Sep 27 16:47:25 We need to automate as much as possible, and that means it is best if we can mark things during drafting. Going back over documents at conversion time for any more than is necessary is a lot of manual effort. Sep 27 16:47:50 ...even when using tools. Sep 27 16:48:10 /root/, root Sep 27 16:48:19 But getting people to do it during drafting means you are now imposing just another set of rules, and why then would we bother using a Wiki? If we wanted rules, we could go back to having everyone write in DocBook XML Sep 27 16:48:31 *however*... Sep 27 16:48:43 We are going to have to have guidelines. There's no way around that. Sep 27 16:49:01 If you're talking about having a team of XML-savvy wikimonkeys doing revisions on the drafts before conversion to make it easier, hey, I'm all for it Sep 27 16:49:03 One rule may be enough: italic reserved for search to pick up easier Sep 27 16:49:14 Simply stating that we want certain context marked with certain markup isn't unreasonable or difficult to follow. Sep 27 16:49:16 elliss: That's more the idea Sep 27 16:50:00 nman64: It's not unreasonable, but we've already determined through long conversations with some people who have been down this road, that the best use of the wiki is to try to be as hands-off as possible (in terms of process, that is) to encourage broad participation Sep 27 16:50:34 Otherwise we're sliding down the slippery slope back to requiring DocBook XML Sep 27 16:50:49 <-- mrj has quit ("Be seeing you...") Sep 27 16:51:05 But hey, this is just my opinion... we should hash this out on the list, that's what it's for Sep 27 16:51:16 You're preaching to the choir on that one. Some guidelines are necessary, though, or we'll end up putting too much effort into converting the documents to benefit from the extra contributions. Sep 27 16:51:35 Agreed. Sep 27 16:51:36 Yes - I'll send a post after I've done a bit more Sep 27 16:51:43 Say, Thursday Sep 27 16:51:48 nman64: I hear what you're saying too... but I *long* for the day when we have so much material to markup that someone has to complain :-D Sep 27 16:52:05 elliss: excellent Sep 27 16:52:24 Thanks for your thoughtfulness guys, everybody appreciates the exceptional work you're doing Sep 27 16:52:34 Oh, for the record: won't be here next week Sep 27 16:52:41 travelling to FUDCON Sep 27 16:52:47 OK Sep 27 16:52:51 Have tons o' fun Sep 27 16:52:55 * quaid reads up and agrees that italic for all reserved terms is probably the lightest hand and helps us the most with search and replace. Sep 27 16:53:18 also, {{{ }}} should be liberally used Sep 27 16:53:33 OK, shall we move on then to the next priority section? I don't expect to get through with it, but we should try to hit some of it since we had to bail on it last week :-) Sep 27 16:53:53 OK Sep 27 16:54:00 Time marches Sep 27 16:54:13 CVS chapter in DocGuide and common... isn't that done? Sep 27 16:54:35 I know I made a change to fix something Tommy (or someone, sorry I can't recall) found wrong Sep 27 16:55:04 docs-common ? Sep 27 16:55:13 Used to be called something else Sep 27 16:55:21 Right Sep 27 16:55:30 docs-common, just saving keystrokes ;-) Sep 27 16:55:38 It wasn't I. However, I think you are referring to the wrong "docs-setup" checkout instead of the "docs-common" Sep 27 16:55:54 Yeah, that's right Tommy... thanks for the jog Sep 27 16:56:00 I see the DevGuide has it wrong too Sep 27 16:56:04 tcf: Are you handling this one? Sep 27 16:56:38 Sorry, by "has it wrong too," I meant "has something wrong in a completely different but equally serious manner" Sep 27 16:56:47 Is the DevGuide still maintained/relevant ? Sep 27 16:56:54 It should be Sep 27 16:57:14 Although I note that it should be drawing content from the wiki Sep 27 16:57:51 I know that the Extras guidance is not *so much* in flux that this couldn't be done by someone watching the wiki and importing changes by hand once a baseline was established Sep 27 16:58:24 OTOH, maybe this is no longer worth the effort to maintain since policy may want to move faster than we do Sep 27 16:58:29 quaid: Your opinion? Sep 27 16:58:41 yeah, we might want to find a way to move it all to the Wiki Sep 27 16:58:43 however Sep 27 16:58:57 we just recently got the entire source under OPL for the RPM Guide Sep 27 16:59:05 so we have a chance to -increase- formal devel titles Sep 27 16:59:21 Ah... I was about to bring up the idea of formal publishing Sep 27 16:59:39 well, by formal I mean just Fedora Documentation Foo, but yeah, it leads to actual hard copy Sep 27 16:59:43 Any ideas on converting the sxw files > DocBook ? Sep 27 16:59:44 That would be an argument for kicking up the DevGuide to match the wiki status and then maintaining it Sep 27 16:59:55 SXW are just .zip format Sep 27 17:00:01 when you open them they're pure XML Sep 27 17:00:11 elliss: OpenOffice.org 2 can export them directly to DocBook, can't it? Sep 27 17:00:13 yeah, I was hoping one of you with a good OO.org would do a conversion to Docbook Sep 27 17:00:22 OO.o 1.9.whatever now does simple DocBook XML translation Sep 27 17:00:36 stickster: supposed to be getting better Sep 27 17:00:41 It may not be sufficient, but if it doesn't crash that would be such a win that who cares? :-D Sep 27 17:00:47 Schedule it against me Sep 27 17:00:56 I don't know if Erik Foster-Johnson wants to continue maintaining nor how involved he wants to be, but peop.le such as nasrat want to contribute. Sep 27 17:01:01 (My grammar is becoming worse by the minute. I apologize to all for that last completely horrid sentence structure.) Sep 27 17:01:16 EFJ? Maintaining what? Sep 27 17:01:28 Oh, the RPM Guide, right? Sep 27 17:01:56 * quaid adds ellis to the FedoraDocsSchedule for converting SXW to DB with OO.org, nright? Sep 27 17:02:14 Yes, to get it started Sep 27 17:02:32 I'll post on list if I hit an issue Sep 27 17:02:34 rightO Sep 27 17:02:43 However... Sep 27 17:03:05 Note that an overlapping guide is currently being built in Wiki Sep 27 17:03:25 Yes, the integration of these is a serious task Sep 27 17:03:40 The author ought to know Sep 27 17:03:47 Ignacio's? Sep 27 17:03:50 Yes Sep 27 17:05:16 Any comments? Sep 27 17:05:46 I'll assign the integration of that content to Ignacio Sep 27 17:05:54 or evaluation Sep 27 17:06:10 Can we announce that the files are in CVS ? Sep 27 17:06:21 There was no e-mail to the list Sep 27 17:06:41 Or would that be premature ? Sep 27 17:06:56 We should probably try to get them converted first Sep 27 17:07:09 So people who are simply monitoring the list can grab, build, etc. per normal Sep 27 17:07:39 I'll try to get something done this weekend Sep 27 17:07:48 And post to FDSCo Sep 27 17:08:03 before I leave next week Sep 27 17:08:24 It doesn't look like a load of fun... I think OO.o conversion depends on certain OO.o style usage, and I see that doc has quite a few custom styles in use... still, maybe the GUI environment will render that problem easier Sep 27 17:08:42 No that's why I volunteered Sep 27 17:08:46 stickster: sorry, dude, may have stepped on your edit of the FedoraDocsSchedule, be warned Sep 27 17:08:59 No, just had it opened, didn't mean to edit it at all Sep 27 17:09:01 Go right ahead Sep 27 17:09:06 Once it's converted smarter people can look after the content Sep 27 17:09:31 (than me) Sep 27 17:09:38 Riht on (than me too) Sep 27 17:09:41 *right Sep 27 17:09:48 * stickster proves his own case Sep 27 17:09:56 heck, making more work for me ;-) Sep 27 17:10:24 quaid: UTF-8 (DevGuide is one of these) and mirror-tutorial (!) Sep 27 17:11:03 yeah, it's one of those just hanging out there Sep 27 17:11:20 I can publish some of this... haven't gotten a Round Tuit but I can if you desire to slough this off Sep 27 17:11:59 sure Sep 27 17:12:04 mark me for that one then Sep 27 17:12:10 sidenote: Kadishi and Xen need mirrors to build their OS images with Sep 27 17:12:12 it dropped off my list a while ago :( Sep 27 17:12:14 ok, done Sep 27 17:12:34 elliss: Any chance you could BZ that as an enhancement? Sep 27 17:12:40 Good idea Sep 27 17:12:51 I have zero experience with them, so any narrative you can suggest would be appreciated Sep 27 17:13:45 Moving on to my walk o' shame... Sep 27 17:14:16 what would revitalize that project? Sep 27 17:14:21 DocGuide outline is done, let's mark that off the list since no further changes have been made/suggested... let me jump ahead to the rest of DocGuide to Sep 27 17:14:35 ...to say that... Sep 27 17:15:13 I will be working on this in dead earnest starting next week... I am in hock to our illustrious Tammy for a RHM article, due Saturday so I hope to be out from under her thumb by Sunday :-) Sep 27 17:15:30 Congrats Sep 27 17:15:46 did the CVS chapter/changes get finished? Sep 27 17:16:11 "Update CVS chapter in Documentation Guide" Sep 27 17:16:19 that's finito, si? Sep 27 17:16:26 Yes, and published, see http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-getting-files.html Sep 27 17:16:44 ah, yeah, I remember that now! Sep 27 17:17:39 We have a docs-common/common/cvs-en.xml as well, not part of that task I think Sep 27 17:17:54 Well duh, since it's not in the DocGuide I guess not, Sherlock :-) Sep 27 17:17:58 stickster: do you want to associate a new milestone date fot the DocGuide? Sep 27 17:18:08 oh, I think it is? Sep 27 17:18:11 Yes, I will bring this up on the list Sep 27 17:18:39 http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/ch-cvs.html Sep 27 17:18:43 Oh, you're right Sep 27 17:18:52 yeah, in fact ... Sep 27 17:19:06 http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/sn-cvs-config.html Sep 27 17:19:06 oh, no, different deliverable Sep 27 17:19:09 That looks right to me Sep 27 17:19:47 Whoops, see one superfluous entry, a repetitive "cvs checkout" command, checking out module-name twice Sep 27 17:20:12 the rest is OK methinks... I seem to remember making this change myself, but I could be wrong Sep 27 17:21:10 I would note that the CSS being used on the live site SUCKS for code... all the monospaced fonts stuff in the text is far too small to read properly, especially if you're eyesight's not owl-quality Sep 27 17:21:20 +1 Sep 27 17:21:22 s/you're/your/ # ARRRRGGGH Sep 27 17:21:28 oops, I must have left that double in, I think I made the last change from 'docs-setup' to 'docs-common' Sep 27 17:21:30 * stickster shoots himself on principle Sep 27 17:21:56 stickster: if you have any CSS changes for the website ... Sep 27 17:22:13 quaid: stick 'em where the sun don't...? Sep 27 17:23:31 no, let's push them through Sep 27 17:24:02 * G2 to bed. Night all. Sep 27 17:24:07 'night G2 Sep 27 17:24:07 Night Sep 27 17:24:19 OK... looks like /css/print.css is to blame Sep 27 17:24:28 yeah, I'm burnt too Sep 27 17:24:35 Let's call it Sep 27 17:24:49 go ahead Sep 27 17:24:59 ooooh, the unmitigated POWER.... Mwahahahaha Sep 27 17:25:01 -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mjohnson at redhat.com Wed Sep 28 03:26:59 2005 From: mjohnson at redhat.com (Mark Johnson) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:26:59 -0400 Subject: Tools for Documentation PDF output In-Reply-To: <20050925151837.bf040794.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <200509242225.11154.philip.rodrigues@chch.ox.ac.uk> <20050925151837.bf040794.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <433A0D83.8010705@redhat.com> Thanks Tommy! Great summary of the present fo2pdf tools. I've been looking really hard at the pdf toolchain issue and admit that there's currently not a free top-quality tooclchain for this. We're forced into choosing the "least worst" fo2pdf tool, which is not at all an optimal situation;) Although the projects that make use of LaTeX as an intermediate format (db*latex) offer all the power of LateX, they seem to fall short in that significant *TeX (not xsl) customization is required. It'd be nice if all parts of the toolchain were xml-based... xmlroff looks like it really has great potential, but isn't quite there yet. I still recommend FOP (at least in the short-term), as it seems to fill the bill reasonably well. In fact, the DITA toolkit[1] includes FOP as their fo2pdf converter, so, at present, I'm inclined to recommend FOP. As old as it is, FOP does a fine job implementing the most useful parts of the xsl-fo spec. To date it's passed all the tests I've thrown at it. Please feel free to convince me otherwise...the best tool wins! Thanks, Mark [1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/dita-ot/ Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Uttered Philip Rodrigues , spake thus: > > >>I hope you don't mind me emailing you directly. I'd just like to add a little >>to what I said on the docbook-apps list about dblatex for PDF generation from >>DocBook sources. Hopefully, I can provide a little information that can help >>you to decide whether dblatex is a suitable option for you. >> >>As you may have found from the sourceforge site, dblatex uses a few tools: The >>main DocBook -> LaTeX conversion is done by XSLT stylesheets. Because of the >>vast differences between XML and LaTeX, a further step is necessary (or at >>least, is used - perhaps it could be dispensed with): the LaTeX document >>produced is run through a little Perl script which does some things like >>escaping of LaTeX special characters, and replacing some entities which don't >>get through properly. pdflatex is then run on the LaTeX code to produce the >>output PDF. This is all wrapped in a shell script, so you just run one >>command to go from DocBook all the way to PDF. >> >>I detailed all that to point out that dblatex uses something of a mish-mash of >>different technologies, which might not appeal to you. However, it doesn't >>use Java or jade, which appeals to use here at KDE :-). >> >>The project is based (I think) on db2latex, a set of XSL stylesheets which did >>the same thing, but without the Perl post-processing. Sadly, db2latex is >>unmaintained, but dblatex is very actively maintained, and I've found the >>author both helpful and very quick to fix any problems I come up with. >> >>Honesty compels me to say that dblatex isn't quite "there" yet - docbook is so >>huge that it's quite possible to find a permutation of docbook elements that >>will produce invalid LaTeX code and therefore break PDF generation for that >>document. However, whenever I've presented such an issue to Beno?t Guillon, >>the author, he's found a solution quickly. All that said, from the ~250 >>docbook documents in the KDE project, I managed to get it down to only 1 doc >>producing invalid output with dblatex. >> >>Another current limitation is that only a few languages are definitely >>supported. This will change, since I will need support for the many languages >>in KDE. >> >>I hope that all helps you to make up your mind about dblatex :-). If you have >>any other questions, feel free to ask me - if I don't know the answer, I'll >>pass you on to Beno?t. You can also subscribe to the dblatex-users[1] mailing >>list, where much dblatex discussion happens. >> >>Regards, >>Philip > > > Philip, > > Thanks for taking the time for such a comphrensive response. I've > taken the liberty of CC'ing it to other FDP Steering Committte > members to keep them updated. > > Thanks again for the input! > > Cheers > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list -- ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark Johnson OS Product Documentation Engineering, Red Hat, Inc. Tel: 919.754.4151 Fax: 919.754.3708 GPG fp: DBEA FA3C C46A 70B5 F120 568B 89D5 4F61 C07D E242 From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 30 19:44:15 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:44:15 -0700 Subject: reminder, not attending next two FDSCo meetings Message-ID: <1128109455.31300.182.camel@erato.phig.org> Paul got an accidental trial-run this week, and will continue to chair the FDSCo meetings in my vacation absence for the meetings of 4 and 11 October. I'll try to hide out, somewhere. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: