From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jun 6 15:58:08 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:58:08 -0700 Subject: 6 Jun Agenda Message-ID: <1149609489.25323.400.camel@erato.phig.org> Hi all: I want to clear our agenda today to discuss the following: * Actions to move our documents to one canonical URI * Time to move to the CMS; we need to scale our ability to publish We need a single view into our document set that is at a permanent location. We need to be able to add publishers easily. docs.fedoraproject.org? help.fedoraproject.org? These would point at a page that is a sub somewhere in the CMS, where we organize in nice categories all the content we have. Then we can identify our holes and get them filled. Bottom line -- it is time to marshal our resources and get this together. We'll need to assign tasks to the project volunteers, and ask people to be accountable for their deliverables. - Karsten -- \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ //////////////////////////////////// Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jun 6 22:51:06 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:51:06 -0700 Subject: some agenda items for 13 June meeting Message-ID: <1149634266.25323.480.camel@erato.phig.org> I am going to be at JBoss World next week, but I have this time open; I'll meet from the Red Hat booth. :) Two things, one that came up after the meeting, one that we need to get to: 1. CVS policy. Discussion on-list (fedora-dsco-list) this week in preparation. Anyone impassioned to kick that discussion off on-list from our sidebar discussion? 2. Expanding Beats. We discussed this a few weeks ago as an approach to resolving multiple goals: manage volunteer availability; useful structure for contributors; creating meaningful, collaborative work; provide failover/backup for content; build on our successes. The idea is to break down all of the Fedora Documentation Project by the same or similar beats as at Docs/Beats. That Wiki namespace remains for filling in content to mainly go to the release notes (or we could move the release-notes work.) However, writers are on one or more Beat teams, and use that to find and produce content relevant to that beat. Beat content is modular by nature, and can be snapped together to form books. Target would be an
or that stood-alone but could be pulled into a larger work (with XInclude). This also lets us absorb any open content that Red Hat has to provide for us to use, without having to be tied directly to a particular book structure needed by anyone else. The resulting content is more useful for repurposing, meaning the authors, friends, communities, etc. can create self-defined works of multiple Beat content. Etc. Anyway, I'd like to kick that off, and keep it in mind for how we structure the back-end FDP workflow for Plone. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jun 6 22:53:08 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:53:08 -0700 Subject: FDSCo report for 6 June Message-ID: <1149634389.25323.483.camel@erato.phig.org> (I'm going to cover three needs here, one of reporting to Fedora News on what is happening this week in FDP, the second of reporting the same to Max, and third to provide some minutes for this weeks meeting. Max, Thomas -- if you want us to use an alternate reporting address, format, or details, just let me know and we will next time.) Today FDSCo discussed moving our Web presences to Zope/Plone on fedoraproject.org. Our goal is to make our new Plone instance on fedoraproject.org the publish point with a content workflow. This is a publishing point for formal Fedora Documentation, which differs from much of the one-off documents produced by other Fedora sub-projects. Fedora Documentation is fully tested, edited, and available for translation. It uses XML as a source or transition state, allowing for useful and interesting effects. A full-featured toolchain and processes provide for a complete FLOSS documenting set. FDP is scaling to address all of Fedora's documentation needs, and beyond. Here is the current vision for workflow; it incorporates near-term goals and end-of-Summer( of Code) goals. Draft <-> Edit <-> CMS Edit -> CMS Publish ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Wiki \-> XML -> CVS -> Plone -> docs.fedoraproject.org XML in CVS <-> Plone -> docs.fedoraproject.org XHTML in Plone (-> XML/CVS ->) Plone -> docs.fedoraproject.org A document authored in the Wiki can stay in the Wiki as an original source, using XML in CVS -> Plone all as build targets. Once a document is authored in XML directly, current plan is to leave Wiki and stay in XML, with XHTML in Plone as a build target. A document authored in Plone is XHTML and can stay that way, but does not gain the toolchain advantages (translation, multiple output formats, etc.). We are exploring either using XML/XSL under Plone, or having a useful XHTML -> XML conversion. However, the latter loses data resolution and is sub-optimal. All of this is in under fedoraproject.org and is exposed at the vhost docs.fedoraproject.org. That page is going to be canonical for all formal Fedora Documentation. In addition, any draft or sub-project maintained documents can/will be linked from there, using some smart-folders, queries, and the like. These are going to be shown in a subordinate status as not being as rigorously authored and maintained as formal Fedora Documentation. With these processes in place, we are better set to scale the team with non- and semi-technical writers, editors, and translators. People who felt unable to enter the door should find it easier to do so. Users will have one (not two, three, or more) places to find Fedora documentation. Schedule (current) 14 June Wednesday -- Plone Show-and-tell - Content TBD End of June -- Wiki usable for outputting XML for CMS June, July -- Work on automating various outputs and inputs - Karsten -- \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ //////////////////////////////////// Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From docs-list at fedoralinks.org Wed Jun 7 17:07:15 2006 From: docs-list at fedoralinks.org (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 12:07:15 -0500 Subject: Release Notes for FC6T1 Message-ID: <448707C3.9090904@fedoralinks.org> Where are we for getting data out of the wiki for the FC6T1 release? Should we skip the Test1 release and focus on getting content and that content out for Test2? -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Docs Projects FDSCo http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sun Jun 11 22:40:15 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:40:15 -0700 Subject: Release Notes for FC6T1 In-Reply-To: <448707C3.9090904@fedoralinks.org> References: <448707C3.9090904@fedoralinks.org> Message-ID: <1150065615.6033.142.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 12:07 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > Where are we for getting data out of the wiki for the FC6T1 release? > Should we skip the Test1 release and focus on getting content and that > content out for Test2? Hmm. There really haven't been any changes to the Wiki. Is there just not that much going on, or did people forget about us? I haven't been paying attention to the publicity and all that; fedora-devel-list and so on need continuous pummeling, I take it. I'm going to make some noise on internal lists. Does the current schedule here reflect reality for the other schedule's slippage? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule Looks like it does. We may not get translations for this release. What date do you want me to demand Wiki changes by? Are we even going to have time to get them into the ISO? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 21:42:13 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:42:13 -0400 Subject: Secretarial duty Message-ID: <1150234933.15237.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Reminder note to list for whoever opens meetings next: We should probably make sure there's a secretary at the ready to handle posting the log, making a summary for f-docs-l, and updating the wiki minutes, when the meeting starts. Hugo kindly volunteered to post the log, but the other things will have to wait until Someone handles it. This note is just a braindump so I know I didn't forget to say anything; I have to wrangle kids tonight and can't do it myself. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From hugo at devin.com.br Tue Jun 13 21:50:01 2006 From: hugo at devin.com.br (Hugo Cisneiros) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:50:01 -0300 Subject: IRC Log FDSCo Meeting 13th Jun 2006 Message-ID: <200606131850.02045.hugo@devin.com.br> [17:13] [17:13] [splinux]: open channel, open meeting, but the main folks involved is the documentation project steering committee [17:13] quaid: Brazil 1 x 0 Croatia [17:14] * quaid is hanging with Croatians today, actually [17:14] have to give Tomislav the ol' poke [17:14] ok, let's see ... [17:14] Ixnay on the orescay in that case [17:14] our main agenda item is: Kick Ass [17:14] stickster: so he can watch it later? [17:15] [splinux]: You are welcome to stay, listen, learn and provide input [17:15] quaid: disco [17:15] On that note, I found a problem in the build tools this week, q.v. message to list [17:15] * quaid is happy he left some agenda notes in f-dsco-l to follow [17:15] <[splinux]> BobJensen: thanks ;) [17:15] quaid: oops, sorry I'm out of order, still d/l'ing mail (Internet down at work) [17:15] ok ... [17:15] [17:16] 1. Check on how we are doing with ass kickin' move to CMS for once and for all and so forth [17:16] --> megacoder has joined this channel (n=reynolds at host-216-76-238-114.hsv.bellsouth.net). [17:16] * BobJensen still has mail bouncing [17:16] * quaid repeats [17:16] [17:16] 1. Check on how we are doing with ass kickin' move to CMS for once and for all and so forth [17:16] 2. CVS policy discussion [17:16] 3. Expanding Beats [17:16] any other agenda items? [17:17] [17:17] we can add more if there is time or lag :) [17:17] Let's motorvate [17:17] OK we talked abotu a show and tell tonight [17:17] for item 1 [17:17] BobJensen: actually Wed. iirc [17:17] I thought it was tomorrow [17:17] Oh yeha [17:17] quaid: jinx [17:18] tomorrow [17:18] nman64_away is away [17:18] way way away [17:18] oh? [17:18] do we have any deliverables for this? [17:18] * stickster is rambling, please ignore everything he says [17:18] I relocated my servers yesterday, with that we had some issues with the fedora Unity project systems [17:19] most everything is back up now and a show and tell should be a go for tomorrow [17:19] *** nman64_away is now known as nman64. [17:19] * quaid makes a side note to BobJensen that if we do get some notes in Docs/Beats, the Wiki 2 XML should be much better and easier for us to wrap into a one-off one-page for the ISO [17:19] I will ask Jon Steffens to be available for added questions we might have [17:20] He has been helping with a lot of our advancemnts [17:21] that is all I have on item 1 [17:21] what are we accomplishing? [17:21] or intending to accomplish in this step? [17:21] I mean .. i have my own ideas [17:21] Make sure those that are interesten in helping with the move to the Plone CMS are able to [17:22] A lot of it was educational in nature [17:22] Some of us (I wonder who I mean) don't have experience with Z/P, nor the time to set it up and tinker [17:22] right [17:22] * megacoder wanted to see "Hello, World!" in plone... [17:23] or any XML doc built and put in a workflow or publish mode [17:23] We have a workflow system set up on the unity sites [17:24] ok,yes, the key is, we need whoever is doing Z/P development to be talking with us, on list, so we can do some basic needs requirements gathering. [17:24] IMO bringing ideas to the Websites list will be good [17:26] ok, I'm got a message open to paste stuff into [17:26] what do we have ... [17:26] Plone addons needed? [17:26] * A workflow with a queue and roles for writer, editor, publisher ... so a writer can submit to the queue from $SOURCE, then it is all WUI after that. [17:27] WUI? [17:27] * A way to make $SOURCE == Wiki output, either XML -> toolchain -> XHTML -> Plone [17:27] web user interface [17:27] existing and undeveloped [17:27] * A way to make $SOURCE == XML in CVS -> toolchain -> XHTML -> Plone [17:27] i.e. [17:27] 'make publish [17:27] or [17:28] 'make publish-web' [17:28] or something [17:28] Yeah, "make publish-plone", but don't quote me within reach... [17:28] * A make publish-web, could it just put things in the beginning of the Plone queue and that is good enough? [17:28] quaid: +1 [17:29] +1 [17:29] I think that would be where we would want it to stop, for review, right? [17:29] right [17:29] Yup I agree [17:29] so, not even an editor can inject from CVS -> Web live without the workflow in the way [17:29] what else? [17:29] think of use cases [17:29] Once the HTML is built, cadaver can be used with expect to script uploading the pages to Plone. [17:30] let the tools people (who may be some of us) worry about implementation after we define the uses. [17:30] heh [17:30] LOL [17:30] nman64: not to squelch ideation on that front, too, just wanted to involve the non-Ploney's :) [17:31] +1 [17:31] * BobJensen wonders what team got a GOAL!!! for Eitch's +1 [17:32] almost! [17:32] ok, here is another one ... [17:32] Brazil is kicking ass :) [17:32] * Some artistes and designers to help us make our CSS nice [17:32] what CSS? [17:32] the Plone CSS? [17:32] fedora.css ? [17:33] both? [17:33] quaid: I think this is going to be very important for both [17:33] both [17:33] I mean, we are going to be showing off our docs through this interface, but it will use a diff. CSS than the standard 'make html-nochunks', which is made for stand-alone, right? [17:33] but fedora.css is really fine [17:33] yep, both [17:33] quaid, CVS can assign a "state" (using the "-s " switch); we could use that to key the plone update [17:33] sure, but why not review them both, or somesuch [17:33] quaid: +1 [17:33] well, maybe changing some colors to blue [17:34] Eitch: We have that in our CSS methinks [17:34] well, they ain't broke, but we can review :) [17:34] I did some color redesign last year, IIRC... but it's not visible on the f.r.c website [17:34] nope [17:34] Always open to something better [17:34] stickster: humm [17:34] a general one ... [17:34] * UI designer help for the www.fp.o [17:34] I would like to see some more dfong-style theming throughout, especially title pages and admonition boxes [17:35] tired of getting beat up on that one, too :) [17:35] stickster: example: http://www.devin.com.br/eitch/fedora/yum-software-management-pt_BR/ [17:35] the front page will come from plone eventually am I correct nman64 ? [17:35] Yes. [17:35] Yeah, that was the redesign I did... just color changes [17:36] links are still red [17:36] Yes, that was to distinguish them from the blue headings [17:36] boxes backgrounds are somewhat red too [17:36] On my screen they're yellow [17:36] washed-out lavender here [17:36] megacoder: Wow, nice video card man [17:36] Puke colored here [17:36] humm [17:37] I think it should be some other color [17:37] Better stick to primary colors... [17:37] let me see [17:37] Moving along? [17:37] http://www.devin.com.br/eitch/tlm4/ [17:37] BobJensen: Please [17:37] a modified fedora.cs [17:37] ok, I'll clean that up from above [17:37] using blue :) [17:38] Eitch: Using single side of the color spectrum is bad style. It makes things that need to stick out (like admonitions) stick out *less* [17:38] [17:38] quaid: +1 [17:38] I got the above list [17:38] +1 [17:38] into a message to clean up [17:38] ok [17:38] and we'll push all help to that discussion of needs/requirements on f-websites-l [17:38] *** nman64 is now known as nman64_away. [17:39] thx nman64_away [17:39] task: I'll make some modifications and cleanup and present on the list, period [17:39] 2. CVS policy [17:39] weigh in [17:39] quaid: np. Gotta run again, but I'll check logs and lists when I get back. [17:39] Eitch: perfect, thanks, we want to give more 'juice' to the other designers, so we can collaborate with them [17:39] sure [17:40] now about the CVS policy... [17:40] NOTE: in about five minutes I'm going to say that I'm leaving, then I'll /quit and move from this wired desk to the wireless conference hall, and it takes me at least five minutes to walk there [17:40] I saw the notice quaid put out, but I think the CVS policy should be part of a de-emphasis as we embrace plone. [17:40] so, I'll rely upon one of you to capture all this log, so i can catch up :) [17:40] megacoder: good point [17:41] That's why I haven't bombarded the ML yet. [17:41] megacoder: so, Plone YACanonical repository? [17:41] Make seem a positive step rather than a withdrawal of privilege [17:41] we need a stepping stone from new contributor to full blown CVS user IMO [17:41] Right, no point in wringing our hands over making CVS barrier low if Plone and/or Wiki does [17:41] so, we federate [17:41] I thinkplone can do just that [17:42] federated canonical repositories [17:42] this is weird [17:42] --> daMaestro has joined this channel (n=jon at fedora/damaestro). [17:42] *** quaid is now known as thinkplone. [17:42] People's Republic Of Plone [17:42] *** thinkplone is now known as quaid. [17:42] sorry for the nickbomb [17:42] People's Paradise of Plone [17:42] * stickster waits for bread lines to start [17:43] do we need to scale back CVS permissions? [17:43] or just hold off on adding people, and set a different barrier for all future people? [17:43] Guys daMaestro is Jon from the Fedora Community, has been helping a lot with Plone for the Unity Project [17:43] A little of #1 and more of #2 [17:43] no one has done anything worthy of _revoking_ permissions, have they? [17:43] hello [17:43] Not to my knowlege [17:43] hi daMaestro, thanks for the connection as to what you are doing [17:43] I have, but Tommy keeps humoring me [17:44] or you'd be smelling dead carnage [17:44] right, then ... [17:44] we have all sponsors here [17:44] I think we should use the "sponsor" method to add new cvs users [17:44] so, from here until whenever, we hold back on CVS permissions unless they are needed for real and honest true [17:44] Down with that [17:44] such as translators, real localizers need CVS [17:45] sponsor_method++ [17:45] It would be cool if there was a way to give rights in CVSROOT/avail as "*/po" [17:45] * stickster needs to check docs [17:45] K [17:45] so, not holding back, just setting some parameters to entry [17:45] you can [17:45] oh, */po [17:45] hmmm [17:46] alt we just do the work of adding a custom line for each doc [17:46] stickster, risky IYAM [17:46] quaid: Sticking point is, we don't know when people enter translation process, but we don't want to wait to harness their enthusiasm [17:46] megacoder: ? [17:47] stickster: anonymous checkout? [17:47] stickster: they have to show the PO to get in the do'? [17:47] I think that's more trouble than it's worth. Just dely CVS access until there is a demonstrable need so we don't get bogged down by newbie handholding when they don't need it anyway. [17:47] quaid: I knew you were a closet poet [17:47] you knows it [17:47] quaid, +1: we've have folks translate whole documents in toto and then have to regress into PO files. [17:47] megacoder: *shrug* WFM [17:48] megacoder: Good point, that [17:48] +1 [17:48] OK, so everyone seems to be agreed with the concept of sponsorship, though, right? [17:48] megacoder, stickster can one of you admin types capture all this thinking, at least, and any random notes into a DocsProject/CVSAdmin or CVSSponsors of some kind? [17:48] I think one's apprentice period is over when there is a, whaddaya call it, "master piece". [17:49] I mean, we need a little bit of a process for how stuff gets added, even if we automate, we want to document what the automation does :) [17:49] We kind of need to raze our plentiful, confusing, and superfluous wikiosity into fewer and more useful material [17:49] megacoder: note that f-trans is 100% CVS commit reliant [17:49] the WUI is all about locking files and giving status on what is in CVS [17:49] quaid, yes... [17:50] People enter the list, self-introduce themself, get sponsored by someone (as a mentor), user checks out from cvs one document that the sponsor indicated, translates it, sends to the sponsor and list, sponsor commit, list decides if user will be in CVS [17:50] so we are going to ... merge processes with theirs [17:50] Eitch, "checks out anonymously" .... "sponsor decides" ... should be enough process for us. [17:51] yes [17:51] anonymously [17:51] +1 [17:51] sponsor decides and inform the list :) [17:51] if you can't check out anonymously you are never going to "get" the "real" CVS [17:52] word [17:52] EvilBob, that makes the sponsor responsible for the newbie sitting, not the list; I like it. [17:52] ok, jetting to the conf floor [17:52] continue amongst yourselves [17:52] <-- quaid has left this server ("run to the wireless"). [17:52] megacoder: me too [17:52] natter, natter, gromish, gromish... [17:53] this way we could veify if the contributor really works :) [17:53] *verify [17:53] We need to find out who to tickle, slap, or cudgel to find out what's up with i18n.redhat.com integration -> fp.o [17:53] This should also help with CVS administration: now, we have no good way of removing dead accounts. [17:54] stickster: Infraestructure Project? :) [17:55] Eitch: The i18n server is inside RH walls, so I don't think they are holding the bag on this one [17:55] I could be wrong though [17:55] Where's mether when you need him... [17:56] sopwith at redhat.com [17:56] Maybe it was gampe's group [17:56] btw they are looking for help (as the fedora announce mailing list showed) [17:57] ok one more task for me until the next meeting: create a guideline draft to sponsoring in Docs [17:57] damn. didn't think he'd take so long [17:58] ghenry: late input is better than no input [17:58] Eitch: Do you want to simply take DocsProject/CVSAdmin on the wiki then? [17:59] So we made a decision on cvs access?? [17:59] Could be, but I'll need an editor since my english grammar is not the best :) [17:59] ghenry: Sponsorship -> access [17:59] Eitch: I got you covered [17:59] ta stickster [18:00] thanks [18:00] Game Finished! Brazil 1 x 0 Croatia! [18:00] Since our last e-mail, not approved anyone [18:01] yes [18:01] there are two waiting [18:01] I haven't really seen any commits out of anybody but the usual suspects anyway [18:01] I'll sponsor one of them (I know him) [18:01] ghenry: same here, have been holding off [18:01] Sponsoring is not the same as cvsdocs access, though, right? [18:02] stickster, who are you asking? [18:02] Our avail rule is pretty much wide-open to everyone, so take that into account when drafting the guidelines [18:02] megacoder: Just a general group question [18:02] I think mentoring is the right word [18:02] cvsdocs access should be granted only after the sponsorship, am I right? [18:03] BobJensen: Too confusing with Fedora Mentors program [18:03] all the steps I describe [18:03] described [18:03] BobJensen: Extras uses "sponsorship," let's stick with that [18:03] OK [18:03] OK: self intro -> get a sponsor -> do real work -> sponsor sends CVS request to XXX [18:03] that's it [18:04] --> quaid has joined this channel (n=quaid at fedora/quaid). [18:04] * BobJensen raises his hand to be sponsored [18:04] howdy [18:04] welcome back [18:04] WB quaid we kicked you off the committee [18:04] LOL [18:04] LOL [18:05] * megacoder thinks quaid was hoping you weren't [18:05] OK: self intro -> get a sponsor -> do real work -> sponsor sends CVS request to XXX [18:05] * megacoder at least isn't sure of the timing of that heavy sigh [18:05] that sounds like a good plan to me [18:05] :) [18:05] next item? [18:06] Expanding Beats [18:07] * Eitch does not know about it [18:07] Or rather, contracting them? [18:07] Beats need content, Content has to come from the beat writers and devs [18:08] so Expanding means "getting more collaborators?" [18:08] ah [18:08] In this case splitting up documents in to parts for a team of writers to work together on a larger doc [18:09] The *docs* keyword in CVS commits still works, right? [18:09] this will present a challenge for the editors to make sure that the different writing styles of the assorted writers does not show [18:10] stickster: I don't know about this :( [18:11] BobJensen: but Beats are not made this way now? [18:11] I like to go in and make everything sound as dry and impersonal as possible, thus eliminating any writing personality at all [18:11] Problem solved :-D [18:11] Eitch: the idea is to expand the beats idea beyond the release notes [18:11] LSD == Let Stickster Doit! [18:11] BobJensen: huuuuum! [18:11] * stickster thinks back fondly to... oh, three months ago when we last visited the woolly and wonderful world of beats [18:11] Eitch: taking what we learned there and apply it to other documantation [18:12] megacoder: That's surely a bad trip ;-D [18:12] BobJensen: reading Documentation Guide could be useful for the writers :) [18:12] Hm, maybe I should finish it then [18:12] Besides, many of these are developers, they don't read! [18:13] Rule 1: "make everything sound as dry and impersonal as possible, thus eliminating any writing personality at all" [18:13] :P [18:13] Ha [18:14] Anybody with an action item for Beats then? [18:14] I hate dry impersonal reading [18:14] BobJensen: I think SELinux would be a good document to do this :) [18:14] the release notes showed passion [18:14] * Eitch likes friendly reading [18:15] every section just about had passion IMO [18:15] Especially the part about the sunsets [18:16] People gave a crap what they were writing, made you care abotu what you were reading, stickster and stuart did a great job of blending all the people in to one [18:16] Distributed beat writing == good beats [18:16] well we all did [18:16] "My stuff is the best" --> "This stuff is ALL the best" [18:17] there were what 6 of us combing over the notes that last couple days? [18:17] I think we almost broke the wiki with all the changes [18:18] stickster: do you have a doc in mind we can apply this idea to? Eitch suggested SElinux [18:18] stickster: we have a ton of info on the wiki related to the topic [18:19] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=SElinux&titlesearch=Titles [18:19] and in Dan Walsh blog [18:20] http://danwalsh.livejournal.com/ [18:20] this blog has maaaaaany informations about SELinux [18:20] Folks, I gotta bail. Don't volunteer me for something. [18:21] megacoder: +1 [18:21] <-- megacoder has left this server ("I Worship His Shadow."). [18:21] quaid disappeared :D [18:21] * BobJensen elbows stickster [18:21] * BobJensen grabs a spork [18:22] I think he's dead, if so I get the eyes [18:22] hehehe [18:22] hehehe :P [18:22] OK I think is in order [18:22] --> mspevack has joined this channel (n=mspevack at nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com). [18:22] Hi Max [18:22] BobJensen: do you have more things to tell about the Beats? [18:22] BobJensen: hi [18:23] some decision. [18:23] --> stickster__ has joined this channel (n=pfrields at fedora/stickster). [18:23] Eitch: not really [18:23] Eitch: Just looing for another way to apply what we learned in the release-notes [18:23] I think it's a good idea but coordination is hard (as you already know from release-notes ;-) [18:24] <-- stickster has left this server (Nick collision from services.). [18:24] stickster: do you have a doc in mind we can apply the beats idea to? Eitch suggested SElinux [18:24] stickster: we have a ton of info on the wiki related to the topic [18:24] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=SElinux&titlesearch=Titles [18:24] And I suggest doing this experiment with the SELInux doc [18:24] Eitch and in Dan Walsh blog [18:24] Eitch http://danwalsh.livejournal.com/ [18:24] *** stickster__ is now known as stickster. [18:25] I think that's a great idea [18:25] Much of Dan's work, though, to be fair, could almost go into a guide verbatime [18:25] *verbatim [18:25] Maybe it's worth looking at it to see what could be included into the SELinux FAQ? [18:26] stickster: We are looking for input here, don't ask us anything [18:26] LOL [18:26] :P [18:26] i still want to do an url submission system for submitting blogs for indexing [18:26] stickster: we have existing SElinux docs that quaid worked on right? [18:26] <-- quaid has left this server (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). [18:27] Yes, SELinux FAQ is most up to dtae [18:27] SELinux FAQ Beats! [18:27] :P [18:27] Karsten's not the only author though, Chad Sellers also has done work on it [18:27] stickster: I know some of the others need much love also [18:27] The one thing we have to be careful about is documents that are not easily sliced [18:28] stickster: so should we go to them and see what they think about applying the beats idea to those docs? [18:28] Needing love != would benefit from slicing [18:28] seeing if they would be willing to help with the final edits? [18:28] As long as we keep the organizing principle in mind -- Beats works because it's easily divisible [18:28] BobJensen: +1 that [18:29] FAQ is usually easily divisible [18:29] Yum Guide -- not so much [18:29] (just as an example) [18:29] I agree with stickster [18:30] stickster: would you be willing to look at the existing SElinux docs and see if they are suitable? [18:30] stickster: and report back onlist or at next week's meeting? [18:30] I could call that now [18:30] SELinux FAQ -> YES [18:30] SELinux Apache -> NO [18:30] Just my opinion, to be sure [18:31] there is another Doc isn't there? [18:31] --> quaid has joined this channel (n=quaid at fedora/quaid). [18:31] Those are the only SELinux docs methinks [18:32] You are right [18:32] OK SElinux FAQ can be our test baby? [18:33] Disco [18:33] with authors approval [18:33] and input [18:33] Yup [18:33] Heh [18:33] Copyright ? 2006 Chad Sellers, Paul W. Frields [18:33] hehehe [18:34] No wonder you could answer so quick [18:34] ;-) [18:34] That's just for my meager editorial contributions [18:34] Eitch: see how this works? [18:34] Eitch: he is pushing his work off on us [18:34] hehehe [18:35] :P [18:35] many things to do, few people [18:35] * stickster pumps fists in triumph [18:35] * Eitch votes for a [18:35] +1 [18:36] stickster: will you bring the SElinux FAQ trial to the list and authors please? [18:36] np [18:36] -- []'s Eitch http://www.devin.com.br/eitch/ "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." - Linus Torvalds From docs-list at fedoralinks.org Mon Jun 19 16:00:48 2006 From: docs-list at fedoralinks.org (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:00:48 -0500 Subject: June 20th FDSCo meeting Message-ID: <4496CA30.3060000@fedoralinks.org> I will not be able to attend the meeting tomorrow. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Docs Projects FDSCo http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From hugo at devin.com.br Tue Jun 20 14:45:18 2006 From: hugo at devin.com.br (Hugo Cisneiros) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:45:18 -0300 Subject: Draft: Steps to get DocsProject's CVS write access Message-ID: <200606201145.18407.hugo@devin.com.br> Hi guys, Before beginning to change all DocsProject's wiki, let me present you with a draft regarding our decision in the last meeting: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HugoCisneiros/Prototypes/CvsDocsAccess It's really simple, but as I looked throught DocsProject's wiki, I'll have to change many things :) Please give me some feedback -- []'s Eitch http://www.devin.com.br/eitch/ "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." - Linus Torvalds From hugo at devin.com.br Tue Jun 20 20:14:18 2006 From: hugo at devin.com.br (Hugo Cisneiros) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:14:18 -0300 Subject: Fwd: Re: Draft: Steps to get DocsProject's CVS write access Message-ID: <200606201714.18391.hugo@devin.com.br> Tommy, I'm forwarding this email to the fdsco-list. Thanks! ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: Draft: Steps to get DocsProject's CVS write access Date: Tuesday 20 June 2006 14:42 From: "Tommy Reynolds" To: "Hugo Cisneiros" > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HugoCisneiros/Prototypes/CvsDocsAccess > > It's really simple, but as I looked throught DocsProject's wiki, I'll have > to change many things :) Hugo, I'd like to see the emphasis of this change into a more positive light. The key point is that we are adapting an apprentiss or a mentoring system along with the focus on the plone web services. In effect, this de-emphasises the need to automatically get CVS access in order to contribute to the project. Rather than a "How Do I Get CVS Access" being the goal, I'd rather see a new document, something along the lines of "How Do I Participate in Fedora Docs" where CVS will be just a minor part. ------------------------------------------------------- -- []'s Eitch http://www.devin.com.br/eitch/ "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." - Linus Torvalds From hugo at devin.com.br Tue Jun 20 21:42:52 2006 From: hugo at devin.com.br (Hugo Cisneiros) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:42:52 -0300 Subject: IRC Log FDSCo Meeting 20th Jun 2006 Message-ID: <200606201842.52419.hugo@devin.com.br> [17:14:35] [17:14:42] OT chat is now for the record [17:14:48] megacoder: yo [17:14:50] f13: yo [17:14:50] first item, anyone here ... [17:15:06] BobJensen [17:15:25] have 10 minutes after the meeting each week to i) post the log, and ii) quickly summarize the meeting from the log? [17:15:47] * StillBob points to Eitch [17:16:10] Volunteers appreciated rather than draftees, but that's always a good second choice ;-) [17:16:14] right [17:17:06] okay, heavy gavel of doom [17:17:10] * stickster recuses self since he has to bail before the hour's up [17:17:22] Eitch: do you think you can give it a go? maybe this week to see? [17:17:29] this is a nice job to rotate, perhaps [17:18:01] :P [17:18:08] I will take it next week for a try [17:18:10] ok [17:18:23] I'll try, for this and last meeting [17:19:01] (I'm already doing it for fedora-brasil) [17:19:26] I'll be on point week after Bob [17:19:32] Moving on? [17:20:51] +12 [17:20:54] oops [17:20:54] *zzzzz* [17:20:54] aye [17:21:07] my 2 key is broken [17:21:14] * quaid had his $OTHER_MEETING cancelled, thank goodness [17:21:14] I am here, ben got bowel probs :-( [17:21:18] Strange, so is my z key apparently :-D [17:21:53] ... [17:22:04] so [17:22:04] what did we learn last week? [17:22:07] about Plone etc. [17:22:21] Not as much as we had hoped IIRC [17:22:23] are we OK with just growing out our content there, divide and conquer>? [17:22:24] * Eitch wasn't on the show-and-tell [17:22:32] But we can have another session later [17:22:32] or do we need to do some more planning? [17:22:50] Spent almost an hour waiting for connection details [17:23:05] Now that's been ironed out, next time should hopefully be more productive [17:23:47] quaid: I prefer growing the content there and planning after that :P [17:23:56] "plan as you do [17:24:04] waste some more time, get more results [17:24:08] right, well, we have a bunch of content already that just needs to be moved [17:24:19] I just want to solve use cases like ... [17:24:34] "I just translated the Translation QSG and it's ready to be published." [17:25:03] quaid: Let's make a list of these questions, wiki them and point e.g. Bob and Jon to them -- that makes an agenda for the next show'n'tell [17:25:11] ok [17:25:17] everyone ready? [17:25:28] [17:25:33] [17:25:35] "I just translated the Translation QSG and it's ready to be published." [17:26:04] "I have a DocBook document I wrote but don't want to do the CVS access hoops." [17:26:24] "I have a book in CVS and want to give another person permission to edit and publish it." [17:26:41] and [17:26:43] "I have a book in Plone amd I want to give another person permission to edit and publish it." [17:26:49] "Wrote something in plone what can we do with it now?" [17:26:54] "Red Hat just dumped a truckload of docs on me and my garage is already full." [17:26:59] heh [17:27:05] keep hoping for that one! [17:27:09] * quaid is j/k [17:27:10] * stickster is [17:27:22] and yet, isn't [17:27:32] it's coming, I now have a sliver of visibility into it [17:27:38] FAB++ for the help [17:27:51] what else? [17:28:10] Those are a good start. [17:28:14] * stickster goes to draw up Wiki page [17:28:14] if that's OK... [17:28:17] "I have a book in Plone that I want to make available for translation." [17:28:20] yeah [17:28:25] [17:29:13] After our show and tell last week Unity began working on improving our workflow and just making changes in general [17:29:50] we hope to get CVS set up next week for testing import/export also [17:29:56] * quaid sends out -last- weeks IRC notes about relates stuff [17:31:36] ok, so, we'll take all this to f-websites-l [17:31:41] anything else on this subject? [17:32:24] ok, here's an agenda for the rest of today, sorry to start so late on it :) -- [17:32:31] 0. CMS update, movement [17:32:41] 1. quaid updates on i18n.r.c [17:32:52] 2. quaid update on SoC/Wiki/XML [17:33:02] what else? [17:33:10] Release notes? [17:33:24] 3. Beats and RN for test2 [17:33:27] * stickster notes URL: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/PloneIssues [17:33:44] stickster: can you wrap a brief email around that to f-websites-l? [17:34:04] ok [17:34:04] quaid: nod [17:34:06] 4. AOB [17:34:13] so, on to i18n.r.c ... [17:34:54] basically, Sopwith has his eye on it now and is engaged with all the right people internally ... he knows of external resources and all internal have bought into the concept of community invovlement, where and how we can ... [17:35:05] one concern is making it take longer by trying to include too many new folks [17:35:25] right now, iirc, they are hashing out if the tool is going to be rewritten [17:35:33] active players in that discussion are mospina and Sopwith [17:35:40] The main problem at this point is that there isn't anyone actually owning it. I don't have the bandwidth to do it myself. [17:35:49] mospina wrote a CGI to allow translation via a web interface. [17:36:23] And pgampe says jfearn is supposed to do the work, but jfearn says he's not [17:36:42] BobJensen: I am putting you, me, and quaid as the POCs for the Plone page answers [17:36:46] jfearn knows his own bandwidth [17:36:50] stickster: thx [17:36:56] stickster: OK [17:37:15] If someone understands what actual pieces need to be migrated, it'd be a lot easier for me to hunt down the right people. I just don't understand the technical details of i18n well enough to say "OK, so and so can do it next week" [17:37:19] how much bandwidth do we need? [17:37:36] "bandwidth" as in free time, sorry [17:37:38] Eitch: personal bandwidth(time) [17:37:40] ah ok [17:37:45] :) [17:37:55] Sopwith: specific design/arch details are really in bgroh's head, maybe some in jfearn's [17:38:02] OK. [17:38:35] Sopwith: perhaps our Army of Flying Monkeys could work on some of the details, if all the knowers could pool what they know and help us modularize it a bit? [17:38:55] there are obviously _some_ UID 0 requiring pieces, but surely not all [17:38:59] yea. right now the main challenge is finding out what those pieces are exactly :) [17:39:09] I think e-mailing bgroh for a braindump is a good path. [17:39:28] Sopwith: do you feel we have it clear that we can open (GPL) the pieces? I think they are effectively opened, just not licensed, iirc [17:40:36] quaid: With the positive signals I have gotten from pgampe and everyone else, I am just going to assume it's OK to openly license things [17:41:22] right [17:41:23] quaid: can you ping me when you get to stuff for test2 ? [17:41:33] f13: you bet [17:41:39] f13: oh we will [17:41:47] :D [17:42:03] Could bgroh send a dump to f-d-l so the masses (mainly me) can see it? [17:42:08] * quaid loves his release engineer^H release configuration manager [17:42:30] dump == arch/design/foo? [17:42:39] megacoder: OK, sounds like something to do. [17:43:15] Good, since I have absolutely no idea what technology we are discussing -- only its intent [17:44:45] perl [17:44:45] just so you know [17:44:52] but the rewrite is probably in Java [17:45:03] * quaid doesn't know the last thing for sure, but wants to make megacoder itch [17:45:09] ok, email sent to bgroh [17:45:23] Sopwith: thanks, anything else you know of that we can do? [17:45:35] otherwise ... [17:45:58] * megacoder wants quaid to scratch the itch, not induce it [17:46:38] roger that [17:46:47] ok, quick on the Wiki and XML, then to relnotes [17:46:58] quaid: Nope, sounds good [17:47:01] Sopwith: if you have a few minutes after our meeting I would like to ask about some info related to CVS so Unity can do proper testing of some of the idea we have for plone [17:47:15] so [17:47:21] if you haven't read http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MoinDocBookProject [17:47:22] stillbob: OK, I have a meeting in a bit but send me an e-mail if I'm not on here [17:47:24] you should :) [17:47:35] Sopwith: will do [17:47:53] and I've asked mvirkkil to drop some stuff to the list, which at least stickster and megacoder need to peek at, but anyone who undestands l10n ... [17:48:11] and our toolchain [17:48:23] quaid: I'm listening.. [17:48:25] too many qualifiers... [17:48:27] oh, hi! [17:48:34] quaid: hi :O) [17:48:36] megacoder: ok, uh, forget that, just read [17:48:50] yassuh, boss man [17:48:53] mvirkkil: I was going to give everyone a high-level summary of status [17:49:09] quaid: You want me to do it? [17:49:22] mvirkkil: but since you are here :) [17:49:22] go ahead [17:49:38] I haven't pushed the latest changes to the repo yet, but: [17:50:04] Currently outputing practically any wikipage will result in a valid docbook article [17:50:32] I've also got it outputing a book, where the wikipage contains a list of pages to be included as chapter. [17:50:45] Most of the new funtionality will be accessible as macros or actions. [17:50:59] * stickster starts to get sweaty palms [17:51:10] Stuff like [[IncludeAs('chapter', NameOfPage)]] is where I'm going. [17:51:18] that basically works now. [17:51:36] I'm also working on getting a zip, with all images and the docbook as output. [17:52:03] This turned out to be a bit tricky, but it's getting there.. [17:52:37] mvirkkil: Bravo [17:52:40] Basically 99% of what you want to put in a docbook should work by the end of next week. [17:53:06] Some odd stuff like ... stuff isn't supported. [17:53:24] Author! Author! [17:53:27] I've also decided that admonitions will be a macro in the future. [17:53:47] megacoder: You want support for the author tag? [17:54:13] mvirkkil: that is what people yell [17:54:16] Sorry, no, I was venting approval and admiration. [17:54:18] mvirkkil: after "Bravo" in a theater :) [17:54:22] well, including docbook specific metadata is something I just discovered a cleanish way to do [17:54:38] attributes? [17:54:42] quaid: Nope. That's a really tricky one. [17:54:58] what do you mean by docbook specific metadata? [17:55:29] complete xml fragments. Stuff like 4332.32 [17:55:41] ah, ok [17:55:52] quaid: What I talked about this morning (my time) [17:56:05] or was it the afternoon.. Oh well. [17:56:15] I wonder if we could use XSL to add any attributes we want, or if XSL is not "smart" enough [17:56:28] XSL is smart enough, but are we? [17:56:28] mvirkkil: right, gotcha (yes, I understand) :) [17:56:40] The wikidevs are a bit apprehensive regarding embedding xml fragments in wikisyntax. [17:56:53] stickster: XSL can e.g. take the contents and make them into an id="sn-Just-Like-Title" ? [17:57:03] <stickster> Yup [17:57:07] <quaid> ok, then good [17:57:18] <megacoder> And it also could make XML->Moin clumsy if we must generate some macros and some fragments. [17:57:22] <quaid> we can work out attributes with XSL rather than from the Wiki [17:57:36] <quaid> ok, so, before we chat too much ... :) [17:57:42] <quaid> let's move the discussion to f-docs-l [17:57:54] <stickster> megacoder: Keeping in mind Moin will ultimately go away AIUI [17:57:55] <quaid> mvirkkil: if you are done with pure status update? [17:58:05] <quaid> stickster: what Wiki will replace it? [17:58:10] <mvirkkil> megacoder: xml->moin will always be clumsy :/ [17:58:23] * quaid doesn't believe there will be no-Wiki anytime that soon [17:58:29] <quaid> regardless of how nice Plone is :) [17:58:33] <stickster> Oh wait, I forgot, Plone will wrap around it [17:58:51] Quit Rasther has left this server ("Fui embora"). [17:59:07] <stickster> Hm, so once a doc is promoted we have to maintain full backward compat? Ugh. [17:59:15] Quit tcf has left this server ("Leaving"). [17:59:50] <megacoder> one-to-one, on-to, and transitive properties all, please [18:00:16] * stickster mimes sticking finger in throat [18:00:41] * megacoder would'a done that for you... [18:00:58] * stickster hastily scribbles note to self: stick to working on canon that sits on high shelf [18:01:12] <stickster> :-D [18:01:29] * megacoder ignores the canonical response [18:01:43] <quaid> no [18:01:50] <quaid> if a doc moves to XML [18:01:50] <quaid> it stays [18:01:56] <quaid> to XHTML [18:01:58] <quaid> it stays [18:02:09] <quaid> if it is Wiki-sourced, then XML and XHTML are output formats only [18:02:22] <quaid> anyway [18:02:22] <quaid> relnotes [18:02:22] <quaid> f13: now is the time [18:02:26] <quaid> (sorry it's so late, but let's rock it) [18:02:35] * stickster unfortunately bails, high-fives f13 on way out [18:02:39] <quaid> StillBob: you too, go ahead [18:02:46] <quaid> stickster: ciao [18:02:48] Nick stickster is now known as stickster_afk. [18:03:39] <StillBob> OK, one thing we talked about in FC5 was the seperation of the release notes from fedora-release package, is there any more input ont his idea? [18:04:06] <StillBob> can we do it? should we drop the idea? [18:04:23] <mspevack> stickster_afk: I can take notes tonight, you don't need to worry about it :-) [18:04:34] <f13> I'm here. [18:04:53] <f13> StillBob: I think its still doable. [18:05:12] <f13> the RHEL rel-eng has expressed interist in having this done as well, so if we pave the way they'll be happy [18:05:13] <StillBob> also what can we do to get our beat writers moving getting content in to out beats that is FC6 relevent [18:05:31] <StillBob> s/out/our [18:05:33] Join megacoder_ has joined this channel (n=reynolds at 209.192.56.186). [18:05:40] Nick dylan_thomas is now known as dom_genaro. [18:06:07] <f13> StillBob: I would suppose having them look at what was written for FC5, see whats different so far in FC6 and ping maintainers of said packages / groups and see what direction is planned [18:06:32] <f13> StillBob: there really isn't an over all 'This is what we're going to do for FC6', a lot of it is up to individual maintainers or groups [18:06:36] <StillBob> f13: we have the content there from FC5 so they can see it [18:07:24] <f13> if we're going to do the split of release-notes and fedora-release we need to do it pre-test2 [18:07:29] <f13> so groundwork should start soon [18:08:37] <StillBob> f13: OK let me know what I need to do, I will get emails out to see what beat writers are available for FC6 so we can railroad new writers as needed [18:08:38] <Eitch> :) [18:09:45] Quit dom_genaro has left this server (""cd ~""). [18:09:47] <StillBob> quaid: do you have any experienced input here? [18:10:30] <f13> StillBob: basically a spec would have to be created for the release-notes part. since release-notes is already its own cvs tree, making it into an rpm isn't going to be that hard. Once thats created, I can strip the release notes parts out of the fedora-release package. [18:10:44] * quaid reads up [18:11:06] <f13> we'll have to figure out some generic 'does release-notes require fedora-release' and vice/versa. [18:11:25] <f13> but the real goal is to be able to spin new release-notes packages w/out touching fedora-release type stuff and vice/versa [18:11:47] <quaid> yep [18:11:49] <quaid> +1 [18:11:50] <StillBob> f13: naming the package for the notes was an issue, I know there are guidelines for that, what do you suggest? [18:12:31] <Eitch> fedora-release-notes? [18:12:31] <f13> fedora-release-notes ? [18:12:38] <quaid> f13: here's my thing, and it's a doozy ... [18:12:43] * quaid takes a breath [18:12:44] * f13 waits for it to land. [18:12:46] <StillBob> I understand fedora-release-notes was suggested as not in the guidlines [18:12:49] <quaid> fc5 relnotes were superb [18:13:01] <quaid> but they rode too much on the shoulders of a small group, although it did grow [18:13:02] <Eitch> StillBob: why? [18:13:17] <quaid> we are fixing the tooling issues that made it hard on us, that's not a "broad community concern" [18:13:25] <quaid> but populating Docs/Beats _is_ a broad community concern [18:13:25] <quaid> and [18:13:39] <quaid> we are going to expand Beats to provide content for _all_ works, with relnotes being just one output [18:14:00] <quaid> so participation from _every_single_project_ is crucial to both another superb relnotes and even better, easier, more elegant content [18:14:03] <quaid> remember ... [18:14:06] <StillBob> Eitch: I do not know the details, just going from memory back more than 2 days is a bit much for me [18:14:11] <quaid> we have made it really easy to document as you go .. [18:14:23] <quaid> CVS commit logs, relnotes at fp.o, bugzilla, wiki, xml, now Plone [18:14:44] <quaid> f13: so, last time Tim Burke "motivated" enough people to fill the gaps [18:14:53] <quaid> f13: but we need to make the motivation bigger, the love greater [18:15:06] <quaid> i.e., we can't rely upon the Everseeing Eye of Mether [18:15:12] * Eitch looking at the NamingGuidelines [18:15:13] <f13> quaid: I had completely forgotten about the tag to use when committing to CVS something that was relnote worthy. What was that again? [18:15:19] <quaid> *docs* [18:15:31] <f13> anywhere in the commit log? [18:15:33] <quaid> cvs ci "an entire novel about this milestone *docs*" foo.c [18:15:36] <quaid> yep [18:15:44] <f13> so that works sometimes. [18:15:46] <quaid> f13: even better, the code is in the syncmail script [18:15:53] <f13> but its hard when we're just doing 'update to latest upstream' type bumps [18:15:54] <quaid> so that we can extend it to cover other keywords for other reasons [18:16:03] <quaid> sure, it's not forever [18:16:06] <quaid> but .... [18:16:10] <quaid> it's a thought process [18:16:21] <quaid> remember to pause to document, it won't take long and is easy [18:16:23] <quaid> but don't forget [18:16:32] <quaid> do we need to have RH make up posters and distribute them? [18:16:42] <quaid> custom wallpaper from dfong "Don't Forget to Document" [18:16:56] <quaid> I mean ... it's never been easier :) [18:17:01] Join stickster__ has joined this channel (n=pfrields at fedora/stickster). [18:17:03] * quaid lets go of his breath [18:17:03] <Eitch> StillBob: I'm not seeing anything that blocks this name, do you remember who said this? [18:17:05] Quit stickster_afk has left this server ("Ack! Thppptt..."). [18:17:30] <f13> quaid: also, we could ask each big group to spend a moment with documentation of what the group is up to. [18:17:34] <quaid> anyway, we'll probably just have to do the traditional nagmail [18:17:44] <StillBob> Eitch: if f13 says it is OK, then it is on his shoulders. it needs a @redhat.com owner IIRC [18:17:48] <f13> Desktop Team, Xen Team, Kernel Team, big items like that. [18:17:55] <quaid> yeah [18:18:12] <quaid> mugshot in Extras yet? [18:18:25] <StillBob> quaid: will you be available later to help with a nagmail? [18:18:26] <f13> don't think so [18:18:33] <Eitch> StillBob: sure. Let's ask f13 :) [18:18:37] <quaid> StillBob: yes [18:18:52] <StillBob> quaid: about 9 your time? [18:18:58] <quaid> StillBob: and perhaps this time, we do something that is a short and long term reminder that goes to all the project lists we can dig up [18:19:02] Quit megacoder has left this server (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). [18:19:10] <StillBob> quaid: +1 [18:19:43] <quaid> StillBob: ok, 9-ish [18:19:53] <quaid> so, back to the chat ... [18:19:55] <StillBob> K [18:20:02] <quaid> f13: what else did you have going on for relnotes? [18:20:28] Quit stickster__ has left this server (Client Quit). [18:20:28] <StillBob> f13: what else do you need from us on this? [18:20:28] Join stickster__ has joined this channel (n=pfrields at fedora/stickster). [18:20:44] <f13> well, we really should have something in place for Test2. THe placeholder was ~ok~ but it looks pretty bad in firefox. [18:21:05] <StillBob> f13: w2e will have content for T2 [18:21:11] <f13> ok. [18:21:22] <f13> do we ahve a specific docs deadline for the Test2 freeze? [18:21:35] <StillBob> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule?highlight=%28schedule%29 [18:22:19] <f13> so that looks like it hasnt' been adjusted for the week slip we did. [18:22:41] <StillBob> it is nut on for the current schedule [18:22:52] <f13> final iso spin for Test2 isn't on teh 12th [18:22:56] <StillBob> we run a week early for translation [18:23:02] <f13> the 12th is the day of the freeze. Iso spin happens a few days later. [18:23:05] Quit megacoder_ has left this server (Connection timed out). [18:23:41] <f13> but other than that I think you're right, they are correct [18:23:44] <StillBob> right but we need our people to be accountable for the freeze [18:24:07] <f13> so then I should expect a shiney fedora-release-notes package by EOB July 11th ? [18:24:29] <StillBob> if we tell them that is when the ISO is spun they have no "well we can slip it in room" [18:24:41] <StillBob> we need to avoid that [18:24:43] <quaid> f13: that's why we schedule like that, yep, no slip room [18:25:07] <f13> good point [18:25:08] <StillBob> f13: I would say yes [18:25:17] <quaid> f13: feel free to bring up the subject of "update your Beats" over lunch with people, m'kay? [18:25:30] <StillBob> f13: as we get closer I will be in contact with you about what we need [18:25:44] <quaid> who is making the new package? [18:25:44] <f13> quaid: sure. [18:26:12] * quaid looks at f13 and StillBob [18:26:13] <f13> quaid: the package making can happen entirely outside, spec and all. I could be just the internal maintainer who takes new tarballs and specfiles from 'upstream'. [18:26:14] <StillBob> well being a core package it needs a @redhat owner? [18:26:42] <f13> StillBob: only for the sake of building it into the collection. [18:26:49] <StillBob> OK [18:26:54] <f13> I'd like to treat you as the upstream. [18:26:56] <quaid> should it live in /cvs/docs then? [18:26:57] <f13> you could make tarball releases of the release-notes content. [18:27:03] <f13> quaid: or 108 [18:27:03] <StillBob> I want to learn, and I will do the work with a packaging mentor [18:27:30] <quaid> StillBob: maybe stickster__ if you ask him nicely, since he groks the whole-er picture [18:27:40] <StillBob> quaid: good idea [18:27:56] <quaid> + someone who is an actual Extras maintainer, but Paul knows when to call in Da Gunz [18:27:56] <f13> this would be a great time to revisit some of the mess that is generating the tarball [18:27:57] <StillBob> quaid: I will send him an off list request [18:28:18] <f13> I tried to do it, but got some failures when doing make html-nochunks, even w/ docs-common checked out. [18:28:23] <quaid> hrm? [18:28:42] <quaid> how about 'make html-nochunks-en_US' [18:29:03] <quaid> there may be bogus .po in there at any time [18:29:13] <quaid> only what is tagged for the release -should- be buildable [18:29:27] * StillBob throws .po [18:29:57] <quaid> f13: note that we tag docs-common every time we tag a module (by practice), so you can go back to e.g. fc5 test2 and be able to build those notes (ideally) from that tag [18:30:18] <f13> k [18:30:41] <f13> how about following cvs/dist/ layout and actually have FC-4 FC-5, devel/ branches in the CVS? [18:31:08] * Eitch knows how to package (learned from Extras) [18:31:10] <f13> so that when we wnat to spin an update for FC-5 the content in FC-5 is what was there at release/branch time, and can easily be updated w/out sifting through current development work. [18:31:19] <Eitch> so I can help with packaging [18:32:45] <quaid> f13: I don't know enough right now to answer that, but I suggest you propose that to f-docs-l, let Paul and Tommy chew on it. [18:33:11] Nick stickster__ is now known as stickster_afk. [18:33:13] <f13> oh boy, YetAnotherList (; [18:33:21] <StillBob> Yeah [18:33:55] <StillBob> Ok anything else? [18:33:58] <f13> I'll try to catch Paul when he's available. [18:34:05] <StillBob> we are runnong over our normal time here [18:34:11] <f13> StillBob: lets meet sometime next week to touch base on this. [18:34:37] <StillBob> f13: is Tuesday after lunch OK? [18:35:26] <StillBob> f13: that way anything we need from docs in general can be covered in the FDSCo meeting that afternoon [18:35:52] <f13> StillBob: I _think_ so, but I suck at calendering things. I'm trying to get a Treo for my use again. [18:36:15] <f13> given that today is tuesday and I didn't have any meetings today I think we're safe. [18:36:15] <StillBob> f13: I will just send you a ping [18:36:28] <quaid> StillBob: you da calendar man, give him a ping :) [18:36:28] <quaid> heh [18:36:28] <f13> k [18:36:39] * quaid has his Franklin Covey act together [18:36:39] <quaid> papuh all the way [18:36:41] <stickster_afk> quaid: I'll take the packaging [18:36:41] <quaid> ok, we're done [18:36:43] <StillBob> so are we good for this week? [18:36:50] <quaid> unless there is anything else? [18:36:57] <quaid> stickster_afk: you and StillBob are da 1s [18:37:04] * quaid is stuck on d today [18:37:11] <quaid> </meeting> -- []'s Eitch http://www.devin.com.br/eitch/ "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." - Linus Torvalds