FESCo Meeting 2006 July 13 Minutes
Toshio Kuratomi
toshio at tiki-lounge.com
Fri Jul 14 05:04:27 UTC 2006
2006 July, 13 FESCo Meeting
===========================
Meeting Summaries are posted on the wiki at:
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/SteeringCommittee/Meetings
Attending
---------
* thl (Chair)
* scop
* jwb
* spot
* tibbs
* abadger1999
* rdieter
* c4chris
* dgilmore
Summary
-------
* Josh Bowyer is the new FESCo VP. The VP's first task is being a
backup if the chair cannot attend a meeting.
* Mass rebuilds
- We should rebuild after FC5t2 when glibc changes have settled in and
we've confirmed that the buildsystem is using the reduced package
set.
- Add a file to the CVS tree to each package to mark that it hasn't
been
rebuilt for FC6 yet. The maintainer removes this when they rebuild
the package or tells why it doesn't need rebuilding in the cvs log.
* Election
- thl will mail abadger1999 with some questions to look into.
abadger1999 will do some research and report back to FECo.
+ One piece is election model. This time we used bloc voting.
Should
we have range voting, approval voting, or something else instead?
* Ctrl-C Problem
- scop will test the fix and see if the issue still exists.
* Encourage Extras Reviews:
- tibbs reports there are some new people doing reviews.
- The wiki was unclear that all people sponsored are eligible to do
reviews.
- Will also mention that fedorabugs is needed to do reviews.
- tibbs will modify the wiki to fix these.
* Comaintainers
- Needs someone to drive the issue and organize it into short term and
long term goals.
+ short term: Fix bugzilla auto-CC in owners.list
+ long term: Items listed in thl's email.
* These may tie into the new VCS, accounts, and package databases.
* Getting new contributers via comaintainership.
* Perhaps reviewers could automatically be made temporary
comaintainers of the packages they review so they see that the
packager is doing the right things to get it to build in the
build system for the first time, etc.
* SIGs can help comaintain where applicable.
* Should comaintainers be mandatory? General feeling was they
should be encouraged but not mandatory.
* Security sensitive things should all have comaintainers.
* AWOL Policy
- http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/MikeKnox/AWOL_Policy
- Changes:
+ Mention the Vacation Page.
+ Made expectations for an unsponsored packager taking over an
existing package more realistic (They still need to prove their
knowledge to a sponsor).
+ Add appropriate links to NewSponsorProccess, ReviewGuidelines,
etc.
- Policy approved with those changes.
* Packaging Committee Report
- Honoring $RPM_OPT_FLAGS added for arch specific packages.
+ Changed to say never for kmods.
- New ChangeLog format is a must item.
- It is permissible to have Release: [INT]%{?dist}.[INT] (period
integer
after the dist tag.)
- dist tag harcoding was discussed and voted down (existing rules
against continue to apply).
- jpackage guidelines discussed and not voted on.
- packages in Fedora SHOULD have ipv6 support and if they do not, the
packager SHOULD open a bug in Red Hat Bugzilla that blocks an ipv6
tracker. They should also notify upstream.
+ This was vetoed. Resolution:
* Clarify that this does not have to be tested. If it is *known*
not to work then the bug is opened.
* Put into a separate document: Recommendations for Software
Packaged
in Fedora instead of the Guidelines. The intention is that this
document will be for software features rather than packaging.
* The Packaging Committee is responsible for this document as
well.
* thl's recent email listing projects within FE is being maintained on
the
wiki:
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThorstenLeemhuis/RecapitulateStateOfExtras
- Schedule time to look parel out ideas from there for people to work
on.
- Share some ideas with Infrastructure to keep things moving there.
IRC Log
-------
::
(10:00:22) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
init
(10:00:29) thl: who's around from fesco?
(10:00:30) ***scop boots
(10:00:36) jwb: me me me
(10:00:40) ***spot is here
(10:00:41) tibbs: I'm around.
(10:00:48) abadger1999: 3/4 here
(10:00:52) rdieter: here
(10:00:54) spot: gimme a minute to make the notes from FP
(10:01:08) ***c4chris_ waves
(10:01:15) thl: spot, we'll do that after we're gone trough all
topics
with priority "1"
(10:01:26) thl: well, then let's start slowly
(10:01:35) spot: ok
(10:01:35) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
VP
(10:01:50) thl: okay, so who want's the job now?
(10:02:05) jwb: i said i would take it if nobody else wanted to
(10:02:09) thl: "frearless leader backup"
(10:02:25) ***jima loves the "fearless leader" line ;)
(10:02:45) thl: any other (self?) nominations?
(10:02:58) c4chris_: we like jwb :)
(10:03:02) thl: seems no
(10:03:09) ***dgilmore is here
(10:03:11) thl: so jwb for vp get a +1 from me
(10:03:17) c4chris_: +1
(10:03:17) scop: +1
(10:03:21) abadger1999: +1
(10:03:23) jima: +1 (rabble)
(10:03:26) rdieter: jwb++
(10:03:31) tibbs: +1
(10:03:38) dgilmore: +1
(10:03:45) jima: jwb = screwed
(10:03:47) thl: okay, seems we're in agreement
(10:03:49) jwb: heh
(10:03:53) thl: jwb, you lost ;-)
(10:04:07) jwb: that's ok. i'm used to running meetings ;)
(10:04:17) thl: okay, so let's move on
(10:04:31) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
Mess-Rebuild for FC6
(10:04:38) thl: I added that to the topic
(10:04:46) thl: we should slowly plan what to do
(10:04:49) c4chris_: intended type?
(10:04:54) thl: we don't need decisions today
(10:04:58) dgilmore: it needs to be done earlier than it was in fc5
i
think
(10:05:04) c4chris_: s/type/typo/ doh
(10:05:26) jwb: dgilmore, i agree
(10:05:30) thl: c4chris_, which typo (me often does typos....)
(10:05:41) c4chris_: s/Mess/Mass/...
(10:05:42) jima: c4chris_: ssshhh, you could have pretended that
was
ironic.
(10:05:45) thl: ping jeremy, f13, warren
(10:05:50) thl: c4chris_, ohhhh :)
(10:06:03) thl: no, not intended, but a nice one :)
(10:06:10) c4chris_: yup :)
(10:06:13) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
Mass-Rebuild for FC6
(10:06:33) jwb: perhaps start rebuilding after test2 releases
(10:06:35) thl: jeremy, f13, warren, when can we start
rebuilding
Extras for FC6?
(10:06:48) thl: I suppose when the current mass-rebuild is done?
(10:06:48) c4chris_: I think a rebuild is a good thing
(10:06:52) scop: I have mixed feelings about it
(10:06:58) thl: e.g. after FC6T2?
(10:07:06) dgilmore: jwb: probably best time. I hope that our
big
glibc change will have settled down by then
(10:07:17) scop: all packages for which it makes sense need to
be
rebuilt
(10:07:29) jwb: scop, meaning all non-noarch?
(10:07:37) scop: not necessarily
(10:07:57) scop: think eg. versioned dirs
(10:07:57) thl: scop, "--verbose" ?
(10:08:37) scop: the other side of the "mix" is that a mass rebuild
is
a lost opportnity for catching awol maintainers
(10:08:54) c4chris_: in cases where maintainer doesn't want
to
rebuild, I'd like to at least see a message stating "no rebuild
for
foo.."
(10:09:06) wart-cellphone [n=upirc] entered the room.
(10:09:06) scop: regarding versioned dirs, think eg. a perl 5.8.x
->
perl 6.x upgrade
(10:09:08) ***thl likes catching awol maintainers with a manual
mass
rebuild as we did for FC5
(10:09:26) jwb: thl, yeah that was a good point
(10:09:28) scop: I like that too
(10:09:32) jima: i agree with it being manual
(10:09:42) warren: huh!?
(10:09:42) jwb: c4chris, and maybe _why_ they don't want to rebuild
(10:09:46) warren: we went to perl 6.x?
(10:09:50) jima: now's a great time to find the AWOL people
(10:09:51) thl: c4chris_, could a tag in cvs be used?
(10:09:55) tibbs: Who doesn't love to stress test the build system?
(10:10:02) scop: warren, it was just a hypothetical example,
don't
worry ;)
(10:10:12) _wart_ left the room (quit: "Download
Gaim:
http://gaim.sourceforge.net/").
(10:10:15) thl: btw, regarding the mass-rebuild
(10:10:16) c4chris_: thl: ?
(10:10:37) warren: If we want to catch AWOL maintainers, the best
way
to do that is to ask the maintainers themselves to launch the
rebuilds
of their own packages.
(10:10:39) thl: do the builders use the reduced package set yet?
(10:11:00) c4chris_: jwb: that would be good, yes
(10:11:04) tibbs: thl: do you mean, check in a file to CVS that
the
maintainer removes when they rebuild?
(10:11:14) dgilmore: warren: thats the way it was done for fc5
(10:11:20) ***jwb steps away for 2 seconds
(10:11:23) thl: c4chris_, regarding: 'I'd like to at least see
a
message stating "no rebuild for foo.."' -- maybe we could use cvs
for
it
(10:11:26) dgilmore: thl: we should make sure that is the case
(10:11:33) thl: dgilmore, agreed
(10:11:42) c4chris_: thl: ah, ok
(10:11:56) c4chris_: thl: why not.
(10:12:01) thl: tibbs, mmmm, yes, that could work, but it's probably
a
lot of noise
(10:12:21) scop: use dead.package for the marker? ;)
(10:12:32) c4chris_: scop: :)
(10:12:50) c4chris_: commatose ?
(10:12:50) thl: or a file "rebuild.me" ;-)
(10:13:07) ***jwb is back
(10:13:41) c4chris_: that might get quite noisy on the ml, though...
(10:13:54) thl: warren, who is our contact for the buildsys atm?
(10:14:03) warren: thl, good question...
(10:14:05) scop: I think the idea of using a file in CVS is
worth
trying
(10:14:09) thl: warren, the infrastructure group? skvidal? dcbw?
(10:14:25) jwb: file to mark for rebuild or no rebuild though?
(10:14:29) thl: warren, we should soon switch to the reduced
package
set in the default buildroot
(10:14:35) scop: the commit message can then explain stuff if
a
rebuild is not needed
(10:14:43) dgilmore: thl it would be the infrustructure team
(10:15:01) dgilmore: thl i can bring it up in the fedora-admin
meeting
this afternoon
(10:15:09) thl: dgilmore, great, thx
(10:15:18) scop: no file (cvs rm'd) means "done, rebuilt"
(10:15:27) scop: or "done, does not need to be rebuilt"
(10:15:27) thl: dgilmore, what about plague? does it need a
update,
too?
(10:15:36) thl: I lost track on the diffferent plague versions
(10:15:39) c4chris_: scop: I like the idea
(10:15:46) warren: thl, kind of skvidal
(10:15:51) jwb: scop, and who puts the file there in the first place?
(10:15:51) dgilmore: thl: plague wont need an update but its
mock
configs might
(10:15:55) warren: thl, infrastructure group is capable of helping
(10:16:12) scop: jwb, whoever, for example I can volunteer for that
(10:16:18) thl: dgilmore, you you handle that task? poke skvidal if
he
needs to do something?
(10:16:23) jwb: scop, ok just checking
(10:16:28) dgilmore: thl: sure
(10:16:32) thl: dgilmore, tia
(10:16:50) jwb: i like the rebuild.me file in CVS as well
(10:17:20) ***thl likes rebuild.me file in CVS as well
(10:17:32) scop: it should probably be added after CVS is branched
for
FC-6, right?
(10:17:33) thl: but we need to define which arch packages really
need
a rebuild
(10:17:41) abadger1999: jwb: As in a file that asks some
automated
process to rebuild it?
(10:17:46) thl: scop, why?
(10:17:56) c4chris_: abadger1999, no: asks the maintainer
(10:18:03) thl: scop, we normally branch when FC6 ships -- that a
bit
late for a mass rebuild
(10:18:06) jwb: abadger1999, no as in a file that maintainers
remove
when they rebuild (or say why they aren't)
(10:18:07) abadger1999: Okay. that's fine.
(10:18:16) scop: thl, okay, that would be too late indeed, then
(10:18:33) c4chris_: why not branch sooner ?
(10:18:43) thl: c4chris_, why should we?
(10:18:48) jwb: c4chris_, coordination with Core is best
(10:18:51) thl: is there any need?
(10:18:53) thl: jwb, +1
(10:19:11) jwb: i say the rebuild starts after FC6T2
(10:19:17) c4chris_: oh, I thought core did a kind of frozen
branch
already...
(10:19:17) thl: jwb, I
(10:19:29) thl: jwb, I'd like to have a ACk from Jeremy first
(10:19:33) skvidal: thl: what am I being poked for?
(10:19:35) jwb: thl, sure
(10:19:43) c4chris_: I agree we should not branch before Core
(10:19:47) thl: skvidal, nothing (yet)
(10:19:52) dgilmore: skvidal: minimal buildroots if needed
(10:20:04) skvidal: dgilmore: okay - just for
anything
infrastructure-related
(10:20:14) skvidal: email admin at fedoraproject.org or file a ticket
in
otrs
(10:20:26) skvidal: that way things don't block on me
(10:20:26) dgilmore: skvidal:will do if we need you
(10:20:33) skvidal: okie doke
(10:20:35) thl: okay; then let's stop here now
(10:20:36) ***skvidal goes back to hiding
(10:20:47) scop: skvidal, what's the role of "fedora
infrastructure"
in bugzilla?
(10:20:48) thl: and proceed next week
(10:21:03) skvidal: scop: in bugzilla?
(10:21:08) c4chris_: thl, k
(10:21:10) thl: someone should own this task -- e.g. poke jeremy
for
informations and mail to the list
(10:21:17) thl: any volunteers?
(10:21:28) dgilmore: thl: Ill do it
(10:21:33) scop: skvidal, grep for infrastructure
at
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi
(10:21:35) thl: we also need to know which packages really need
a
rebuild (and which one not)
(10:21:44) thl: dgilmore, k
(10:21:55) skvidal: scop: oh - I dunno - we still get those - I
think
we've been pushing more things to otrs
(10:22:12) ***thl will move on soon
(10:22:17) scop: skvidal, ok
(10:22:27) scop: it's not too prominent I think, though
(10:22:31) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
Next FESCo future/election
(10:22:41) thl: someone should own this task, too
(10:22:42) skvidal: scop: it just started being used
(10:22:51) skvidal: scop: give it a bit more time
(10:22:56) thl: e.g. analyse the last election
(10:23:03) thl: write down how we did it
(10:23:10) thl: when the next one is planed
(10:23:13) ***spot starts to burn his stuffed ballots
(10:23:13) thl: and all that stuff
(10:23:22) thl: any volunteers?
(10:23:39) jwb: i think abadger1999 and spot are the logical
choices.
they did most of the work :)
(10:23:47) ***scop aims spot with a bucketful
(10:23:53) spot: abadger1999 did most of the work. :)
(10:23:54) abadger1999: Sure, I'm up for it.
(10:24:04) thl: abadger1999, thx
(10:24:05) spot: most of my code was thrown away (and rightfully so)
(10:24:13) thl: abadger1999, there is no need to hurry
(10:24:17) abadger1999: What sorts of things do we want to know/do?
(10:24:39) abadger1999: How to make the app better?
(10:24:39) thl: but I'd like to get this done until end of
august?
that okay?
(10:24:44) abadger1999: How to publicise more?
(10:25:05) thl: the app worked fine afaics
(10:25:11) scop: who voted for himself ;)
(10:25:37) thl: abadger1999, but do we need another vote-model
next
time (don#t know if that's the proper describtion)
(10:25:44) spot: i voted for pat buchanan by mistake. the ballot
was
confusing. ;)
(10:25:57) skvidal: spot: I want to hang chad
(10:26:01) thl: e.g. a model more like "you can vote for as
many
members as you like and those with the most votes get in?"
(10:26:07) abadger1999: The database is designed for reuse, the
app
needs to be modified to do that.
(10:26:22) abadger1999: thl: Oops. Misundertood the question.
(10:26:22) thl: I don't know if that would be better
(10:26:41) abadger1999: ... But it has the same answer.
(10:26:47) thl: :)
(10:26:55) jwb: we have to decided how many seats are up
for
re-election too. still 1/2? or all?
(10:27:07) thl: abadger1999, I'll send you a main in private with
some
of my thoughts
(10:27:13) thl: let's stop here for today
(10:27:22) abadger1999: thl: Sounds good.
(10:27:28) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
CTRL-C problem
(10:27:31) scop: (all++)
(10:27:42) thl: well, it should be fixed (or a lot harder to trigger)
(10:27:49) warren: Only requires testing
(10:27:53) thl: but no one tested it yet
(10:28:13) c4chris_: did Hans try again
(10:28:18) thl: any volunteer? or do we trust Sopwith that he did
the
right thing
(10:28:28) scop: I'll do some testing
(10:28:47) thl: hans triggered it only once accidentally -- he
didn#t
want to try it again
(10:28:52) thl: scop, thx
(10:28:55) c4chris_: oh
(10:28:56) tibbs: Hans is on vacation; I never could make it
happen
myself.
(10:28:58) ***thl will move on
(10:29:14) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
Encourage Extras reviews
(10:29:21) thl: standing item...
(10:29:29) tibbs: We have had a couple of new reviewers lately,
which
is good.
(10:29:42) thl: I think we can skip this for today if no
one
disagrees?
(10:29:51) thl: or are there any new magic ideas how to make
it
better?
(10:29:54) scop: ++
(10:29:57) tibbs: No objection from me.
(10:29:58) scop: (skip)
(10:29:59) c4chris_: fine with me
(10:30:00) thl: ohh, well, there is one thing
(10:30:17) ***dgilmore has no new ideas
(10:30:21) thl: tibbs, it seems it's not cleanly documented that
all
sponsored people can review packages
(10:30:34) thl: tibbs, at least one rh guy didn't know that
(10:30:45) tibbs: Really? Where should that be documented?
(10:30:48) thl: tibbs, could you please check if that in the
proper
places in the wiki?
(10:31:06) thl: and if not: could you please add it on a public
place?
(10:31:13) thl: tibbs, don't know
(10:31:18) tibbs: You need to get fedorabugs before you can
actually
do anything, correct?
(10:31:19) c4chris_: where did the rh guy not find it ?
(10:31:27) scop:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/ReviewGuidelines#head-e1a114b2
3499786e13113ebf072d03a8f8d02094
(10:31:36) RTLM [n=RTLM] entered the room.
(10:31:57) tibbs: PackagingGuidelines and ReviewGuidelines are
all
conflated at the moment.
(10:32:07) nphilipp left the room (quit: "Leaving").
(10:32:12) thl: it happend here:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-music-list/2006-July/msg00012.h
tml
(10:32:13) c4chris_: tibbs, to assign tickets, yes
(10:32:42) tibbs: And fedorabugs doesn't come with cvsextras,
so
technically all sponsored folks can't do reviews.
(10:33:07) thl: tibbs, maybe the docs can be improved a bit?
(10:33:16) tibbs: They have to ask for one more thing. I wonder
why
fedorabugs pending members don't generate a daily mail like
cvsextras
pending sponsorships?
(10:33:28) tibbs: thl: no kidding.
(10:33:29) thl: tibbs, Sopwith should know
(10:33:35) c4chris_: tibbs, I think you're right... One more thing
for
the Grand Unified Access thingy
(10:33:52) _wart_ [n=wart] entered the room.
(10:34:01) tibbs: I'll try to at least add another step to
the
9-million step contributor process document.
(10:34:14) thl: tibbs, thx
(10:34:21) ***thl will move on
(10:34:36) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
Co-maintainership
(10:34:43) thl: has no owner
(10:35:05) tibbs: Isn't everything in place except for the
"bugzilla
auto-CC's folks" thing?
(10:35:05) thl: and is a major task that should be spitted into
short
term goals
(10:35:11) thl: and long term goals
(10:35:20) thl: short term: fix "bugzilla auto-CC's folks"
(10:35:24) scop: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/198109
(10:35:37) scop: --> Sopwith
(10:35:50) thl: long term: the things I mentioned in my
"Recapitulate
the current state..." mail
(10:35:50) nim-nim [n=nim-nim] entered the
room.
(10:36:09) tibbs: We do have to decide if co-maintainers are
mandatory
or not.
(10:36:27) dgilmore: thl: i think its part of the
review
infrustructure is doing of accounts system. and VCS
(10:36:33) rdieter: mandatory--
(10:36:38) abadger1999: I'd say no to mandatory.
(10:36:38) scop: mandatory--
(10:36:44) dgilmore: one VCS goal is stricter permissions on the
whole
VCS tree
(10:36:55) thl: I's say 90% of the packages should have
co-maintainers
(10:37:06) rdieter: why?
(10:37:06) thl: but mandatory probably won't work
(10:37:11) dgilmore: - to manadatory
(10:37:20) dgilmore: + to would be nice to have
(10:37:22) c4chris_: encourage, but not mandatory
(10:37:25) abadger1999: It might be nice if reviewers were
something
like comaintainers.
(10:37:29) thl: rdieter, people are on vacation, people are offline
(10:37:37) abadger1999: Perhaps for a limited time.
(10:37:45) rdieter: you're right "should" is always nice.
(10:37:56) tibbs: abadger1999: reviewers or sponsors.
(10:38:18) abadger1999: I was thinking reviewers.
(10:38:33) thl: abadger1999, yeah, I thing getting new
contributors
via co-maintainership might be a good idea in the longer term
(10:38:35) tibbs: But as a reviewer I often know very little about
a
package. I'm just checking the form, whether it installs and maybe
if
I can make it do something.
(10:38:59) thl: I also think people with more then 20 packages
should
hand over some of their packages to new contributors
(10:39:01) rdieter: tibbs: right, it won't work for everyone, but
it's
a good place to start.
(10:39:09) abadger1999: True, but you know more about it than
the
packager's sponsor.
(10:39:30) tibbs: abadger1999: That's a reasonable point.
(10:39:33) ChitleshGoorah left the room (quit: Remote closed
the
connection).
(10:39:46) abadger1999: And it could be good to automatically
be
watching the new package as it takes its first steps of import
and
first few passes through the build system.
(10:39:54) tibbs: Ideally everyone involved would help out anyway.
(10:40:35) abadger1999: tibbs: You're correct there.
(10:40:43) tibbs: So now we have this big nebulous idea
of
cosponsorship.
(10:40:56) c4chris_: maybe a dating wiki page...
(10:41:26) tibbs: Everyone involved in getting the package in
can
help, but really the reviewer and sponsor aren't going to be able
to
do much by next year.
(10:41:53) c4chris_: thl, do you have a list of packages you'd
really
like to see co-maintained?
(10:41:58) tibbs: SIG members can help for those packages where
SIGs
apply.
(10:42:24) thl: c4chris_, no, I think that co-maintaining packages
is
a good idea per se
(10:43:03) tibbs: I'd like to see security-sensitive things
have
co-maintainers as soon as is reasonable.
(10:43:04) thl: maybe I should write up all my thoughs on this
and
post them to the list
(10:43:13) tibbs: Internet-facing daemons and web apps and such.
(10:43:53) thl: let's stop here for today
(10:44:07) thl: it remains on the shedule and won't get lost ;-)
(10:44:22) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
AWOL Policy
(10:44:34) thl:
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/MikeKnox/AWOL_Policy
to be precise
(10:44:53) thl: so, what do we do with it? do we like it? any
proposed
modifications?
(10:44:57) jwb: i liked it
(10:45:33) jwb: i used something quite similar to it for one of
the
packagers i sponsored and it worked well
(10:45:52) tibbs: I like it too, but it needs to mention the
Vacation
page or have some way for folks to indicate that they're going to
be
away.
(10:46:08) jwb: true
(10:46:12) tibbs: I know I can be out of pocket for three weeks
or
more if I go out of the country.
(10:46:30) thl: what about the "- If you are a not an existing
Extras
contributor, you can still take over..." para?
(10:46:32) scop: the only slight problem I have with it is the
new
contributor stuff
(10:46:34) thl: do we want that?
(10:46:51) thl: or do we let that out for now?
(10:46:53) jwb: why not? it has to go through a full review
(10:46:57) c4chris_: thl, yes, that's my main gripe about
the
proposition
(10:47:08) scop: but then again, we already must trust our sponsors
to
be able to judge who they consider worth sponsoring
(10:47:08) tibbs: But there's the sponsorship angle as well.
(10:47:13) c4chris_: jwb, but it's already in good shape from
the
start
(10:47:27) jwb: c4chris, so?
(10:47:40) tibbs: The problem is that taking over a package is
going
to give the sponsors absolutely zero to go on.
(10:47:50) scop: just resubmitting it doesn't show whether
the
resubmitter possesses "enough" clue
(10:48:02) jwb: i see it as being no different from a brand
new
package that is in good shape
(10:48:03) c4chris_: jwb, how do you know the submitter knows
the
packaging rules?
(10:48:18) abadger1999: I think we take it out.
(10:48:23) jwb: c4chris_, and how do you know the submitter knows
the
packaging rules for a brand new package?
(10:48:36) c4chris_: jwb, true
(10:48:42) abadger1999: jwb: In this case we _know_ that the
new
packager was able to crib from an existing package.
(10:48:46) tibbs: jwb: You see how they react to review comments.
(10:48:57) jwb: one can take a package from DAG, put it up for
review
and have _no_ issues with it
(10:48:58) c4chris_: but then, I noticed many sponsors wait for
a
couple more packages...
(10:49:10) tibbs: jwb: That's a rather optimistic statement.
(10:49:12) scop: jwb, unlikely ;)
(10:49:22) c4chris_: and it's not too hadr to check whether good
specs
are already available or not
(10:49:23) jwb: ok, poor example but you know what i mean :)
(10:49:55) ***thl would not sponsor someone that only took over an
old
package from Extras where the maintainer is MIA/AWOL
(10:50:01) jwb: i'm not opposed to ommitting it. i just don't
think
it's necessary to
(10:50:07) ***scop already tried it once and won't try again
(10:50:31) thl: we can leave that para in
(10:50:32) abadger1999: I think we should have a policy
for
unsponsored packagers to take over packages but it should be a
general
part of becoming a new packager rather than the AWOL policy.
(10:50:36) thl: and see if it works
(10:50:42) tibbs: The sponsorship thing is never going to be
perfect,
but in this case I think the takeover request would just sit
around
waiting for a sponsor forever, which wouldn't improve the situation
at
all.
(10:50:45) thl: and change it later if it doesn't
(10:51:00) c4chris_: thl, k
(10:51:13) rdieter: thl++
(10:51:13) thl: abadger1999, I think co-maintaing is the way to
get
that realized
(10:51:16) dgregor left the room (quit: "Leaving").
(10:51:25) c4chris_: we need to trust the sponsors
(10:51:27) abadger1999: thl: I agree.
(10:51:27) dgilmore: every so often ill be out of the country for
2-3
weeks
(10:51:35) abadger1999: (with comaintainership)
(10:51:36) scop: c4chris_++
(10:51:36) thl: so, okay, just to be sure
(10:51:42) thl: do we agree on
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/MikeKnox/AWOL_Policy
(10:51:48) thl: it get's a +1 from me
(10:51:48) jwb: +1
(10:51:52) rdieter: +1
(10:51:52) c4chris_: +1
(10:51:56) abadger1999: I don't think we should leave the woding
of
the AWOL policy the way it is.
(10:52:06) scop: I would like "the process should be swift" removed
(10:52:11) abadger1999: too optimistic for the unsponsored packager.
(10:52:17) abadger1999: scop: Yes.
(10:52:33) thl: scop, agreed
(10:52:38) jwb: sure
(10:52:39) ***thl removes it
(10:53:14) thl: removed
(10:53:16) abadger1999: Maybe mention that normal sponsorship
rules
apply?
(10:53:16) wart-cellphone left the room (quit: Connection timed out).
(10:53:51) thl: abadger1999, "This will allow the normal
review
process to happen. " is the last sentence atm
(10:54:00) thl: what means "that normal sponsorship rules
apply"
afaics
(10:54:07) thl: or not?
(10:54:34) abadger1999: "...including finding a sponsor that
believes
you understand the packaging rules."
(10:54:36) scop: s|review process|review/sponsorship process|
(10:54:38) tibbs: Might be nice to assume they don't have
a
photographic memory of the process and include some links.
(10:54:40) abadger1999: Append something like that?
(10:54:52) thl: abadger1999, okay for me
(10:54:56) c4chris_: abadger1999, yes
(10:54:59) thl: other opinions?
(10:55:06) jwb: fine with me
(10:55:24) tibbs: Seems good to me after those changes.
(10:55:35) abadger1999: +1 with those changes.
(10:56:34) jwb: btw, who's doing the minutes this week?
(10:56:38) thl: okay, committed
(10:56:45) tibbs: Seems to only be five votes.
(10:56:55) thl: so, once again
(10:57:04) thl: everyone satisfied with
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/MikeKnox/AWOL_Policy now?
(10:57:09) scop: "...that believes you understand what is
expected
from FE package maintainers"
(10:57:09) tibbs: +1
(10:57:10) thl: get's a +1 from me
(10:57:10) c4chris_: +1
(10:57:12) jwb: +1
(10:57:12) rdieter: +1
(10:57:30) jwb: abadger1999, ?
(10:57:37) abadger1999: +1
(10:57:38) ***thl needs to leave in 5 - 10 minutes
(10:57:43) abadger1999: (slow reader)
(10:57:44) scop: +1
(10:57:54) thl: scop, we can add that later if we need to
(10:58:02) jwb: that's 7
(10:58:08) scop: yep, I'm just thinking aloud
(10:58:09) thl: we don#t need to discuss such minor details now IMHO
(10:58:20) thl: scop, and that's a good thing ;-)
(10:58:43) tibbs: Packaging committee summary?
(10:58:46) thl: okay, settled
(10:58:54) jwb: tibbs, yeah. spot?
(10:58:59) thl: hehe
(10:59:05) spot: ok
(10:59:06) thl: I'm doing the meeting here ;-)
(10:59:14) spot: are you ready for me? :)
(10:59:18) thl: IPv6 Support in Extras is on the schedule
(10:59:19) tibbs: Sorry, I'm lagging badly at the moment.
(10:59:28) thl: but I'd like to skip that because we run late
(10:59:30) jwb: thl, i'll take it and ask it to be deferred to
next
week
(10:59:31) thl: okay?
(10:59:40) scop: thl, that was covered in the packaging
committee
meeting too
(10:59:43) abadger1999: [spot enters stage right]
(10:59:53) jwb: scop, it's more than just packaging IMHO though
(10:59:58) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
Packaging Committee Report
(11:00:02) scop: jwb, yes, definitely
(11:00:03) thl: spot, shoot
(11:00:10) spot: from todays FP meeting
(11:00:23) spot: - Honoring of $RPM_OPT_FLAGS (for arch
specific
packages) will be explicitly mentioned in packaging/review guidelines
(11:00:34) spot: - PackagingDrafts/Changelog is a MUST
(11:00:48) spot: - all packages in Fedora SHOULD have ipv6 support,
if
they do not, the maintainer SHOULD open a bug in red hat bugzilla
and
notify upstream. this bug should block an ipv6 bug.
(11:01:07) spot: - <int>%{?dist}.<int> is permitted for single
dist
updates
(11:01:12) ***thl likes to add that kmod's should *not*
honor
$RPM_OPT_FLAGS (at least iirc)
(11:01:23) spot: thl: good point
(11:01:27) scop: kmods MUST not honor them
(11:01:29) spot: - No changes to the dist tag rules were made,
thus
hardcoding dist in a spec is still not permitted.
(11:01:43) spot: - Jpackage changes to existing guidelines
were
deferred for more discussion before a vote
(11:01:47) jwb: spot, that's somewhat contentious
(11:01:55) jwb: (the dist tag thing)
(11:02:00) thl: I'd like to veto "SHOULD have ipv6 support" for now
(11:02:12) thl: I'm not sure that should be in the
packaging
guidelines
(11:02:22) thl: doesn't that open the door for a lot of other rules?
(11:02:27) jwb: thl, i agree
(11:02:32) _wart_: thl +1
(11:02:33) scop: like UTF-8 support?
(11:02:40) thl: scop, for example
(11:02:42) c4chris_: thl, I don't like it that much either
(11:02:50) thl: I agree that both things are good in general
(11:03:01) thl: but the guidelines get longer and longer and
move
complicated
(11:03:03) _wart_: But if the ipv6 rule is adopted, I'd like to see
a
detailed page describing how to setup and test a package for
ipv6
support.
(11:03:03) rdieter: I see nothing wrong with documenting lack of
utf-8
support either.
(11:03:05) scop: but you don't think UTF-8 support is a SHOULD???
(11:03:08) thl: I'd like to keep such things out
(11:03:18) spot: jwb: the dist tag rules have _always_ said that
you
cannot hardcode dist.
(11:03:33) spot: jwb: the committee felt that there was no reason
to
alter this
(11:03:39) rdieter: The proposed guideline doesn't say you have
to
test for ipv6 support, only to document known non-working.
(11:03:39) thl: scop, sure it's a should -- but does it to be
defined
in the packaging guidelines?
(11:03:40) jwb: spot, i misread that. ignore me
(11:04:05) scop: thl, I don't care which guidelines it's in, but
it
should definitely be somewhere
(11:04:07) _wart_: rdieter: so if you don't know if it works or
not,
you don't have to document anything?
(11:04:08) jwb: rdieter, and how does one know without testing?
(11:04:13) scop: "feature guidelines"?
(11:04:18) rdieter: _wart_: right.
(11:04:23) thl: "package guidelines"
(11:04:29) thl: but not "packaging guidelines"
(11:04:30) jwb: scop, yes that is what i was going to propose. or
a
SIG
(11:04:36) rdieter: Jwb: you don't.
(11:04:37) jwb: or both
(11:04:40) scop: okay, I'm fine with that
(11:05:00) dgilmore: id like to +1 ipv6 support
(11:05:07) jwb: basically i think this isn't a _packaging_ issue
at
all, but a feature issue
(11:05:21) thl: spot, would "package guidelines" be okay for you?
(11:05:26) spot: thl: sure.
(11:05:30) jwb: thl, sure
(11:05:39) scop: "package" and "packaging" are too close, confusing
(11:05:45) c4chris_: thl, I like that much better
(11:05:45) abadger1999: scop: ++
(11:05:47) thl: scop, yeah...
(11:05:47) tibbs: "Best practices for Fedora Packages"?
(11:06:05) ndim: "Debian Policy" :)
(11:06:06) thl: "Best practices for Software packaged in Fedora"?
(11:06:15) jwb: yeah
(11:06:16) scop: it's not a practice...
(11:06:35) ***scop parrots "feature"
(11:06:35) c4chris_: Recommendations
(11:06:37) nacc_home left the room.
(11:06:54) thl: "Recommendations for Software packaged in Fedora"
(11:07:00) thl: spot, that okay for you?
(11:07:01) scop: works4me
(11:07:05) jwb: i like that
(11:07:09) spot: sure.
(11:07:26) jwb: spot, so you'll take this back to the PC and ask
that
to be removed?
(11:07:27) tibbs: Now the question remains: is this still in
the
packaging committee's baliwick?
(11:08:01) ***scop looks up baliwick
(11:08:02) ***thl thinks the packaging comitte should also
maintain
the "Recommendations for Software packaged in Fedora"
(11:08:08) rdieter: imo, yes.
(11:08:15) spot: i think the packaging committee can handle it
(11:08:17) jwb: i'm fine with that
(11:08:25) c4chris_: fine
(11:08:28) tibbs: scop: don't bother; I can't even spell it
correctly.
(11:08:33) jwb: as long as they're 2 separate docs
(11:08:36) scop: tibbs, I noticed ;)
(11:08:44) spot: jwb: yup.
(11:09:05) thl: k, anything else from the packaging committee?
(11:09:29) thl: seems not...
(11:09:31) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
Weekly sponsorship nomination
(11:09:35) thl: any nominations
(11:09:40) thl: you have 30 seconds
(11:09:41) scop: one more related thing to the previous
(11:10:00) tibbs: No nominations from me....
(11:10:09) scop: was there an official annoucement about the
FPC
role/process anywhere as discussed on fab-list?
(11:10:25) jwb: scop, not outside of that list afaics
(11:10:49) scop: okay, it should be posted somewhere more prominent
(11:10:57) jwb: -maintainers?
(11:11:24) scop: that'd be better, yes. can you poke jeremy about it?
(11:11:49) jwb: sure
(11:11:50) thl: k, no nominations
(11:12:01) thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting in progress
--
free discussion
(11:12:13) thl: anything else we should discuss today?
(11:12:14) ***c4chris_ needs to run soonish...
(11:12:25) jwb: FYI, i'll be out the next 2 weeks
(11:12:32) jwb: vacation (sister is getting married)
(11:12:36) c4chris_: update Vacations page ?
(11:12:43) jwb: c4chris_, will do
(11:12:55) c4chris_: have a good one!
(11:12:59) jwb: thx :)
(11:13:18) thl: btw, I maintain a slightly enhanced variant of
my
"Recapitulate the current state of Fedora Extras..." mail
at
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThorstenLeemhuis/RecapitulateStateOf
Extras
(11:13:28) thl: maybe we should go though it somewhen
(11:13:40) thl: and discuss on what points we want to work
(11:13:45) skvidal: thl: do you mean capitulate?
(11:13:48) thl: and which ones we want to ignore
(11:13:58) thl: skvidal, :)
(11:14:05) skvidal: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capitulate
(11:14:18) skvidal: b/c to recapitulate means to surrender, again
(11:14:35) skvidal: ah, wait
(11:14:37) scop: and summarize?
(11:14:37) skvidal: it does not
(11:14:40) skvidal: and summarize
(11:14:41) skvidal: weird
(11:14:46) ***skvidal loathes english sometimes
(11:14:56) c4chris_: skvidal, :-)
(11:14:59) skvidal: I'd only ever heard it used as 'surrender'
(11:15:25) thl: maybe my dictionary drove me into the wrong direction
(11:15:27) thl: sorry
(11:15:34) skvidal: thl: no, you're completely correct
(11:15:40) skvidal: just not the usage I'm familiar with
(11:15:44) ***skvidal goes back to being quiet
(11:15:47) thl: the dictionary was correct
(11:16:08) c4chris_: ah well, might come from the french side...
(11:16:29) ***thl afk for two minutes
(11:17:29) nim-nim: Recapitulate comes from the french
word
"capitulations"
(11:17:45) nim-nim: the list of conditions two parties agreed
before
one surrendered
(11:18:03) tibbs: So has anyone seen any package submitters who
they
think should be sponsored?
(11:18:07) nim-nim: capitulate has inherited the surrender part
(11:18:20) abadger1999: thl: Nice link. I think we need to push
some
of those up to Infrastructure.
(11:18:21) nim-nim: recapitulated has inherited the listing part
(11:18:39) nim-nim: and no one remembers what capitulations
are
anymore
(11:18:41) ***thl back
(11:18:46) scop: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/capitulate
(11:18:49) scop: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/recapitulate
(11:19:12) thl: abadger1999, yes, we need a lot of help from
the
Infrastructure group
(11:19:31) thl: anyway
(11:19:36) thl: let's stop here for today
(11:19:40) thl: and close the meeting
(11:19:49) ***thl will close the meeting in 30
(11:19:58) thl: btw, who writes the summary?
(11:20:11) abadger1999: I'll write the summary.
(11:20:18) thl: abadger1999, tia
(11:20:20) scop: do I remember abad... never mind ;)
(11:20:34) ***thl will close the meeting in 10
(11:20:44) ***c4chris_ goes for dinner now. See ya all later :)
(11:20:45) thl: MARK -- Meeting end
(11:20:50) thl: thx everyone
(11:20:55) tibbs: Off to lunch....
(11:20:55) c4chris_: thx
(11:21:07) ***scop goes practice some Ctrl+C's
(11:21:22) thl has changed the topic to: "This is the Fedora
Extras
channel, home of the FESCo meetings and general Extras discussion.
|
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras | Next FESCo Meeting:
2006-07-20
1700 UTC"
(11:21:37) thl: scop, have fun :)
(11:21:45) ***thl afk now
(11:22:22) scop left the room ("Leaving").
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