From petersen at redhat.com Thu Aug 2 03:06:21 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 13:06:21 +1000 Subject: i18n session at VirtualFudCon Message-ID: <46B14A2D.9000808@redhat.com> As part of the Online Fedora UnConference (3-8 Aug) [1] I propose having a i18n session to follow on from our IRC meeting one month ago. I am thinking to do it at the beginning of next week (Monday or Tuesday morning in East Asia, eg 2007-08-07 00:00 UTC). I would like to fix the day and time ASAP so if you have any strong preferences please let us know. Also we need to set an agenda for the session. So if you any particular topics for session please post those too. I'll setup a wiki page for it soon. Thanks, Jens [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/VirtualFudCon -- Jens Petersen Internationalization Team Red Hat From ryo-dairiki at users.sourceforge.net Fri Aug 3 16:28:48 2007 From: ryo-dairiki at users.sourceforge.net (Ryo Dairiki) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 01:28:48 +0900 Subject: Questionnaire in Japanese Fedora Community Message-ID: <46B357C0.5090202@users.sourceforge.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From petersen at redhat.com Fri Aug 10 01:51:20 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:51:20 +1000 Subject: Questionnaire in Japanese Fedora Community In-Reply-To: <46B357C0.5090202@users.sourceforge.net> References: <46B357C0.5090202@users.sourceforge.net> Message-ID: <46BBC498.5010300@redhat.com> Hi Dairiki-san, Sorry for late followup. Ryo Dairiki ????????: > Following to my previous post, I've asked some questions in Japanese > Fedora community, and I've got some replying from some members there. :) Thanks! > - TeX related issues > Previously they have been using pTeX from Ascii (Japanese IT company). > They want to continue using it mainly because of the macros which are > not supported in TeXLive. Ok, I think there should be no problem in principle with adding pTeX packages to fedora - of course there may be some conflicts with the current main TeX that need to be resolved, etc. I don't remember the details of the license, but according to the debian packages it looks ok. Of course someone would need to do the work to package it, contribute it and get it through the review process. Are there any packages in circulation? > - Anthy related issues > They are suffered from typical miscompositions. We need another > infrastructure for collecting these data. Does upstream have any plans or ideas about that? > - Japanese bugzilla > Some people agree that it helps Japanese to post bug reports, > but others think that problem is not language barrier. > They insist that Japanese users don't aware the importance of > contributions. :( Sounds quite likely, I agree. > Some people are now trying to build another Fedora community in Japanese. Do you have any details about that? I think it would be good to have more people helping to write the Fedora wiki in Japanese: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ja_JP > One person requested to fix some Japanese programs which still use > EUC-JP instead of UTF8. If bugs could be filed that would be useful. It might not be a high priority but maybe some easier issues could be fixed. Jens From petersen at redhat.com Sun Aug 12 23:46:01 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:46:01 +1000 Subject: How to input CJK fonts to the "leave a message"? In-Reply-To: <3528361a0708120804j2d4b4db6mbca6f7e28409fe14@mail.gmail.com> References: <3528361a0708120804j2d4b4db6mbca6f7e28409fe14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46BF9BB9.9020702@redhat.com> hanpingtian at gmail.com wrote: > I think it will be good to be able to input CJK fonts to the "leave > message" window of locked screen. Is there a method to active SCIM > when X-window be locked? Ah, interesting idea - I hadn't thought of that yet. I *think* it would require running scim (IM) from gdm. Could you file a request (RFE) for this in bugzilla, please? Jens From petersen at redhat.com Mon Aug 13 01:11:10 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:11:10 +1000 Subject: How to input CJK fonts to the "leave a message"? In-Reply-To: <46BF9BB9.9020702@redhat.com> References: <3528361a0708120804j2d4b4db6mbca6f7e28409fe14@mail.gmail.com> <46BF9BB9.9020702@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46BFAFAE.9040700@redhat.com> Jens Petersen ????????: > hanpingtian at gmail.com wrote: >> I think it will be good to be able to input CJK fonts to the "leave >> message" window of locked screen. Is there a method to active SCIM >> when X-window be locked? > I *think* it would require running scim (IM) from gdm. Errm, rather gnome-screensaver probably. > Could you file a request (RFE) for this in bugzilla, please? I guess the main concern might be if it is acceptable to run SCIM there or not. It would probably need either a restricted or hidden SCIM toolbar so that anyone could not change your SCIM settings, etc, while the display is locked. Jens From petersen at redhat.com Mon Aug 13 06:17:34 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:17:34 +1000 Subject: i18n session at FUDConF8 In-Reply-To: <46B14A2D.9000808@redhat.com> References: <46B14A2D.9000808@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46BFF77E.6040607@redhat.com> Sorry for the late followup: the dates for the FudCon got pushed forward to this week... http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/VirtualFudCon The I18n session is now taking place on Wed 14th August at 23:00-24:00 UTC [1]. I will put up a wiki page later with some agenda. Look forward to joining you there, Jens [1] http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?year=2007&month=08&day=14&hour=23&min=0&sec=0 From dimitris at glezos.com Mon Aug 13 23:02:43 2007 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:02:43 +0100 Subject: String and translation freeze wiki pages Message-ID: <46C0E313.6080406@glezos.com> Since the dates in $subject are approaching, I've drafted two wiki pages: 1. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Freezes 2. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/StringFreezePolicy/Draft The first one aims in explaining what the freezes are. The second one will (hopefully) become a formal RelEng policy, in order to formalize what should happen if a freeze is to be broken. Feedback welcome. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From petersen at redhat.com Tue Aug 14 13:28:24 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 23:28:24 +1000 Subject: i18n session at FUDConF8 In-Reply-To: <46BFF77E.6040607@redhat.com> References: <46B14A2D.9000808@redhat.com> <46BFF77E.6040607@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46C1ADF8.8080802@redhat.com> Jens Petersen wrote: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/VirtualFudCon > The I18n session is now taking place on Wed 14th August at > http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?year=2007&month=08&day=14&hour=23&min=0&sec=0 I updated http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings with the details of the meeting and some things discuss. Jens From petersen at redhat.com Wed Aug 15 00:56:41 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:56:41 +1000 Subject: i18n session at FUDConF8 In-Reply-To: <46C1ADF8.8080802@redhat.com> References: <46B14A2D.9000808@redhat.com> <46BFF77E.6040607@redhat.com> <46C1ADF8.8080802@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46C24F49.6040601@redhat.com> For those who could not make the session, the log is now at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2007-08-14 Jens From sankarshan at randomink.org Wed Aug 15 05:21:02 2007 From: sankarshan at randomink.org (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:51:02 +0530 Subject: i18n session at FUDConF8 In-Reply-To: <46C24F49.6040601@redhat.com> References: <46B14A2D.9000808@redhat.com> <46BFF77E.6040607@redhat.com> <46C1ADF8.8080802@redhat.com> <46C24F49.6040601@redhat.com> Message-ID: On 8/15/07, Jens Petersen wrote: > For those who could not make the session, the log is now at: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2007-08-14 Thanks for the logs. Would it be possible to list out the salient action points emerging from the session and what are the milestones associated with them respectively so that it would be a nice summary that can be circulated amongst contributors ? :Sankarshan -- >From Untruth, lead me to the Truth, >From Darkness, Lead me towards the Light, >From Death, Lead me to Life Eternal From petersen at redhat.com Wed Aug 22 05:15:53 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 15:15:53 +1000 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage Message-ID: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> Hi, In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some discussion of installation defaults related to international language support, and it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts by default to get better desktop language display coverage out of the box. So I would like to propose we start installing the following fonts by default on the desktop: fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R, fonts-arabic, fonts-chinese, fonts-hebrew, fonts-indic, fonts-japanese, fonts-korean, fonts-sinhala, and xorg-x11-fonts. I believe the mainstream commercial desktop OS's already do this. dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a few language groups, so they might be worth including too? Any comments or suggestions on this? Jens From sankarshan at randomink.org Wed Aug 22 05:20:13 2007 From: sankarshan at randomink.org (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:50:13 +0530 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> Message-ID: On 8/22/07, Jens Petersen wrote: > In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some discussion > of installation defaults related to international language support, and > it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts by default to > get better desktop language display coverage out of the box. Might be a good idea. Given that spinning out Fedora is now relatively easier, those with a predefined font content set might be well placed to yum remove in %post perhaps. The only thing I see is that the installation payload increases - given the trade off with aesthetics that might not be too bad. Any pointers as to the payload quantum increase ? > So I would like to propose we start installing the following fonts by > default on the desktop: > > fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R, fonts-arabic, fonts-chinese, > fonts-hebrew, fonts-indic, fonts-japanese, fonts-korean, fonts-sinhala, > and xorg-x11-fonts. Nice. > I believe the mainstream commercial desktop OS's already do this. Some "other" Linux OSs do this too :) > dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a few > language groups, so they might be worth including too? That's an overkill right ? :Sankarshan -- >From Untruth, lead me to the Truth, >From Darkness, Lead me towards the Light, >From Death, Lead me to Life Eternal From fangq at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Wed Aug 22 05:40:11 2007 From: fangq at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu (Qianqian Fang) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 01:40:11 -0400 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46CBCC3B.1010805@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> hi Jens it is a great news for better font support on Fedora. I am curious if it is possible to consider wqy-bitmap-fonts as the default desktop font for Chinese locales? the bitmap glyphs were continuously improved in the past ~3 years based on the embedded bitmaps in fonts-chinese and the wqy-bitmapfont was widely used by simplified Chinese users. also, WenQuanYi Project plans to release a dual-width bitmap font similar to GNU Unifont, by merging about 28,000 16x16 new Chinese glyphs with the latest release of Unifont (the Chinese glyphs in unifont is neither complete nor optimized). The new font will cover about 46000 unicode code points and serve as a basic multi-lingual support (such as in installer) and system font fall-back. we just put out a new GPL Chinese font, Zen Hei, for public testing. This is a Hei Ti style (Gothic in Japanese or Dotum in Korean) Chinese font, servers for general purpose Chinese display and printing. Current, it has 20194 Chinese characters (or ~32000 glyphs if include Hangul) and covers zh_cn/sg/tw/hk/mo locales. The file is reasonably small including about 100,000 fine-tuned embedded bitmap glyphs. The beta version can be downloaded at http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=128192&package_id=242056 If these fonts are interesting to fedora i18n group, I would be glad to help for testing and further improving. Please let me know. Qianqian Jens Petersen wrote: > Hi, > > In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some > discussion of installation defaults related to international language > support, and it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts > by default to get better desktop language display coverage out of the > box. > > So I would like to propose we start installing the following fonts by > default on the desktop: > > fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R, fonts-arabic, fonts-chinese, > fonts-hebrew, fonts-indic, fonts-japanese, fonts-korean, > fonts-sinhala, and xorg-x11-fonts. > > I believe the mainstream commercial desktop OS's already do this. > > dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a few > language groups, so they might be worth including too? > > Any comments or suggestions on this? > > Jens > > -- > Fedora-i18n-list mailing list > Fedora-i18n-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list > > > From fangq at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Wed Aug 22 06:04:15 2007 From: fangq at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu (Qianqian Fang) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 02:04:15 -0400 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <46CBCC3B.1010805@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <46CBCC3B.1010805@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <46CBD1DF.4090608@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> by the way, I forget to introduce myself and my project - the WenQuanYi project (http://wqy.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/enindex.cgi). I started the WenQuanYi project in 2004 for making better fonts for Chinese, Japanese and Korean users. It is now becoming arguably the largest collaborative open-source font development project. In the past 3 years, we have completed drawing over 40,000 Chinese bitmap glyphs from scratch and improved 30,000~40,000 existing Chinese glyphs. Now we have full coverage of CJK Unified Ideographics (U4E00-U9FA5, 20,902 char.) and CJK Unified Ideographics Extension A (U3400~U4DB5, 6,582 characters) at 8,9,10,11,12,14pt, for on-screen display of Chinese characters. Parallel to the work of Arne G?tje's team, who led the efforts of building new fonts based on Arphic Ming/Kai fonts, we also spend lots of of our time for outline font development. Our first outline font, the ZenHei is now in testing. This font has complete coverage of zh_* locales, ko locale, and is about 100 characters away for full ja coverage. There has been thousands of volunteers participated our font development via our wiki website. I think it is quite meaningful to put forth these works and make real impact to high-quality international support for Linux community. I am also glad to be involved for continuously improving these works together with our developer teams and share with you our passion and creativities. > > Jens Petersen wrote: >> Hi, >> >> In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some >> discussion of installation defaults related to international language >> support, and it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts >> by default to get better desktop language display coverage out of the >> box. >> >> So I would like to propose we start installing the following fonts by >> default on the desktop: >> >> fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R, fonts-arabic, fonts-chinese, >> fonts-hebrew, fonts-indic, fonts-japanese, fonts-korean, >> fonts-sinhala, and xorg-x11-fonts. >> >> I believe the mainstream commercial desktop OS's already do this. >> >> dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a few >> language groups, so they might be worth including too? >> >> Any comments or suggestions on this? >> >> Jens >> >> -- >> Fedora-i18n-list mailing list >> Fedora-i18n-list at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list >> >> >> > > -- > Fedora-i18n-list mailing list > Fedora-i18n-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list > > > From petersen at redhat.com Wed Aug 22 07:02:35 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:02:35 +1000 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46CBDF8B.6050602@redhat.com> Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay ????????: > The only thing I see is that the > installation payload increases - given the trade off with aesthetics > that might not be too bad. Any pointers as to the payload quantum > increase ? Yep, that is the only downside really, but in terms of convenience to most users it is worth it I think. The only really big fonts are the CJK ones. Here are some figures to give an idea: 29605 fonts-punjabi-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 43699 fonts-tamil-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 44635 fonts-malayalam-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 53215 fonts-gujarati-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 54951 fonts-hindi-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 63166 fonts-kannada-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 65283 fonts-oriya-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 68111 fonts-telugu-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 85979 fonts-bengali-2.1.5-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 110581 fonts-sinhala-0.2.2-1.fc7.noarch.rpm 128774 fonts-KOI8-R-1.0-9.1.1.noarch.rpm 164358 xorg-x11-fonts-ethiopic-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm 299715 fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi-1.0-9.1.1.noarch.rpm 402185 xorg-x11-fonts-cyrillic-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm 689518 fonts-KOI8-R-75dpi-1.0-9.1.1.noarch.rpm 922700 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-2-75dpi-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm 953223 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9-75dpi-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm 993496 fonts-arabic-2.0-6.fc8.noarch.rpm 1033785 fonts-hebrew-0.100-5.fc8.noarch.rpm 1055599 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-2-100dpi-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm 1104957 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9-100dpi-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm 1281179 xorg-x11-fonts-syriac-7.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm 4943756 wqy-bitmap-fonts-0.8.1-6.fc8.noarch.rpm 19125009 fonts-korean-2.2-3.fc8.noarch.rpm 25116800 fonts-chinese-3.03-7.fc8.noarch.rpm 29860882 fonts-japanese-0.20061016-8.fc8.noarch.rpm Typically fonts don't get updated much between releases. I don't know if we really need to have both 75dpi and 100dpi by default. Jens From petersen at redhat.com Wed Aug 22 07:17:31 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:17:31 +1000 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <46CBCC3B.1010805@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <46CBCC3B.1010805@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <46CBE30B.5010104@redhat.com> Hi Qianqian, Thanks for your mail. Qianqian Fang ????????: > it is a great news for better font support on Fedora. I am curious if > it is possible to consider wqy-bitmap-fonts as the default desktop font > for Chinese locales? the bitmap glyphs were continuously improved > in the past ~3 years based on the embedded bitmaps in fonts-chinese > and the wqy-bitmapfont was widely used by simplified Chinese users. I think it is certainly worth considering. One way to get more input on this might be to run a user survey say asking the preferred default fonts for each language. BTW it so happens that currently we are working to move cjkunifonts and taipei-fonts out of fonts-chinese into separate packages: so now is a good time to start discussing this. > also, WenQuanYi Project plans to release a dual-width bitmap font > similar to GNU > Unifont, by merging about 28,000 16x16 new Chinese glyphs > with the latest release of Unifont (the Chinese glyphs in unifont is > neither complete nor optimized). The new font will cover about 46000 > unicode code points and serve as a basic multi-lingual support (such > as in installer) and system font fall-back. Very nice. :) > we just put out a new GPL Chinese font, Zen Hei, for public testing. > This is a Hei Ti style (Gothic in Japanese or Dotum in Korean) > Chinese font, servers for general purpose Chinese display and > printing. Current, it has 20194 Chinese characters (or ~32000 glyphs > if include Hangul) and covers zh_cn/sg/tw/hk/mo locales. The file > is reasonably small including about 100,000 fine-tuned embedded > bitmap glyphs. The beta version can be downloaded at > > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=128192&package_id=242056 Ok great, thank you for that too - we would certainly try to take a look at those. Are you planning to package it for Fedora when it is released? :-) Jens From petersen at redhat.com Wed Aug 22 07:28:34 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:28:34 +1000 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <46CBD1DF.4090608@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <46CBCC3B.1010805@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> <46CBD1DF.4090608@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <46CBE5A2.6010506@redhat.com> Qianqian Fang ????????: > I started the WenQuanYi project in 2004 for making better fonts for > Chinese, Japanese and Korean users. It is now becoming arguably the largest > collaborative open-source font development project. In the past 3 years, > we have completed drawing over 40,000 Chinese bitmap glyphs from > scratch and improved 30,000~40,000 existing Chinese glyphs. > Now we have full coverage of CJK Unified Ideographics (U4E00-U9FA5, > 20,902 char.) and CJK Unified Ideographics Extension A (U3400~U4DB5, > 6,582 characters) at 8,9,10,11,12,14pt, for on-screen display of Chinese > characters. Yes, it is a really great achievement! And as you write a very good example of free open peer-based development. :-) > There has been thousands of volunteers participated our font > development via our wiki website. I think it is quite meaningful > to put forth these works and make real impact to high-quality > international support for Linux community. I am also glad to be > involved for continuously improving these works together > with our developer teams and share with you our passion and > creativities. It is great we have wqy-bitmap-fonts included in Fedora thanks to you. I certainly hope to see many more users of wqy fonts in the future! Jens From katzj at redhat.com Wed Aug 22 13:13:15 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:13:15 -0400 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1187788395.25291.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 15:15 +1000, Jens Petersen wrote: > In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some discussion > of installation defaults related to international language support, and > it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts by default to > get better desktop language display coverage out of the box. I think it's a good idea. I'd suggest that we do it by moving the fonts to be "default" in the base-x group of comps. Jeremy From fangq at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Wed Aug 22 14:42:18 2007 From: fangq at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu (Qianqian Fang) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:42:18 -0400 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <46CBE30B.5010104@redhat.com> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <46CBCC3B.1010805@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> <46CBE30B.5010104@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46CC4B4A.10807@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> Jens Petersen wrote: > > One way to get more input on this might be to run a user survey say > asking the preferred default fonts for each language. that's a great idea > > Ok great, thank you for that too - we would certainly try to take a > look at those. Are you planning to package it for Fedora when it is > released? :-) definitely. I am in the final stage of polishing the font and drawing tens of missing Japanese Hanzi. When I am satisfy with the font, I will submit it as a Fedora new package for review. From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Wed Aug 22 20:09:50 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:09:50 +0200 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1187813390.1994.7.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mercredi 22 ao?t 2007 ? 10:50 +0530, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay a ?crit : > > dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a few > > language groups, so they might be worth including too? I'd rather wait till they get a farsi-friendly arabic variant now that Behdad added locl support to Pango (unless the pango support is good enough to ignore glyphs not specifically tagged for a locale) > That's an overkill right ? It's not an overkill, the complete variant of dejavu includes many unicode blocks we have no support for in other fonts, so it's referenced in the associated language groups (it's *not* referenced in the language groups dejavu-lgc already covers) I'd like Fedora to do a periodic review (at Test1 or 2) of what fonts are installed by default, so new fonts are added and fonts superseded by others are dropped. Big font lists are very user-unfriendly, especially when they stuffed with fonts only a few locales use (ie block-specific fonts as opposed to pan-unicode ones) -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Wed Aug 22 20:12:39 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:12:39 +0200 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <1187788395.25291.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <1187788395.25291.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1187813560.1994.9.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mercredi 22 ao?t 2007 ? 09:13 -0400, Jeremy Katz a ?crit : > On Wed, 2007-08-22 at 15:15 +1000, Jens Petersen wrote: > > In the recent online I18n session at FUDConF8 there was some discussion > > of installation defaults related to international language support, and > > it was suggested that we should be installing more fonts by default to > > get better desktop language display coverage out of the box. > > I think it's a good idea. I'd suggest that we do it by moving the > fonts to be "default" in the base-x group of comps. However a copy should be kept in language-specific groups so the classification is not lost -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From petersen at redhat.com Thu Aug 23 00:43:46 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:43:46 +1000 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <1187813390.1994.7.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <1187813390.1994.7.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <46CCD842.4000101@redhat.com> Nicolas Mailhot ????????: >>> dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a few >>> language groups, so they might be worth including too? > > I'd rather wait till they get a farsi-friendly arabic variant now that > Behdad added locl support to Pango (unless the pango support is good > enough to ignore glyphs not specifically tagged for a locale) Hm, ok - do we have suitable Farsi font currently in Fedora? Presumably dejavu-fonts will eventually obsolete dejavu-lgc-fonts? > It's not an overkill, the complete variant of dejavu includes many > unicode blocks we have no support for in other fonts, so it's referenced > in the associated language groups (it's *not* referenced in the language > groups dejavu-lgc already covers) Right, so from that point of view it would be nice to default to the full font and there is not much difference in terms of size. > I'd like Fedora to do a periodic review (at Test1 or 2) of what fonts > are installed by default, so new fonts are added and fonts superseded by > others are dropped. Big font lists are very user-unfriendly, especially > when they stuffed with fonts only a few locales use (ie block-specific > fonts as opposed to pan-unicode ones) Sounds like a good idea. Fedora I18n could help with that specially for Asian fonts. Is there a good place on the wiki to put a reminder to do that during each release test cycle? In checklist under RelEng perhaps? Jens From petersen at redhat.com Thu Aug 23 01:46:53 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:46:53 +1000 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <1187813560.1994.9.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <1187788395.25291.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1187813560.1994.9.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <46CCE70D.2000303@redhat.com> Thanks to everyone for all the useful comments and feedback. So I have added the following fonts to the default section of the f8 base-x comps group for now: fonts-ISO8859-2*, fonts-KOI8-R*, fonts-arabic, fonts-bengali, fonts-chinese, fonts-gujarati, fonts-hebrew, fonts-hindi, fonts-japanese, fonts-kannada, fonts-korean, fonts-oriya, fonts-punjabi, fonts-sinhala, fonts-tamil, fonts-telugu, jomolhari-fonts, xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9-*, xorg-x11-fonts-cyrillic, xorg-x11-fonts-ethiopic I hope that looks reasonable. [*] I was wondering if we really need both 75dpi and 100dpi variants of the bitmap fonts installed by default for fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R, and xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9? Perhaps it would be sufficient to just install the 75dpi fonts by default and make the 100dpi ones optional? Jens PS I have been pondering lately if we should have a comps group for fonts? Perhaps that would be a good easy place to keep all the fonts packages together? From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Thu Aug 23 06:04:05 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:04:05 +0200 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <46CCE70D.2000303@redhat.com> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <1187788395.25291.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1187813560.1994.9.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <46CCE70D.2000303@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1187849045.5411.3.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le jeudi 23 ao?t 2007 ? 11:46 +1000, Jens Petersen a ?crit : > [*] I was wondering if we really need both 75dpi and 100dpi variants of > the bitmap fonts installed by default for fonts-ISO8859-2, fonts-KOI8-R, > and xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9? Perhaps it would be sufficient > to just install the 75dpi fonts by default and make the 100dpi ones > optional? IMHO: - bitmap fonts should be optional except for languages like chinese who really want them - hardware has been using a ~100doi resolution for years. Drop the 75dpi variant -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Thu Aug 23 08:18:13 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:18:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <46CCD842.4000101@redhat.com> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <1187813390.1994.7.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <46CCD842.4000101@redhat.com> Message-ID: <33929.192.54.193.51.1187857093.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le Jeu 23 ao?t 2007 02:43, Jens Petersen a ?crit : > Nicolas Mailhot ????????: >>>> dejavu-fonts and dejavu-fonts-experimental also occur in quite a >>>> few >>>> language groups, so they might be worth including too? >> > > I'd rather wait till they get a farsi-friendly arabic variant now > that > > Behdad added locl support to Pango (unless the pango support is > good > > enough to ignore glyphs not specifically tagged for a locale) > > Hm, ok - do we have suitable Farsi font currently in Fedora? Yes. However we don't have a dual arabic/farsi font right now so you can't default install fonts for those languages (if the arabic variant gets higher fontconfig prio farsi users are pissed and vice versa). The problem is ara and farsi share the same unicode glyph range but they're not supposed to be drawn the same way > Presumably dejavu-fonts will eventually obsolete dejavu-lgc-fonts? Hopefully dejavu will include both arabic glyph variants someday so we can install fonts with arabic glyphs without users objecting. > Sounds like a good idea. Fedora I18n could help with that specially > for > Asian fonts. Is there a good place on the wiki to put a reminder to > do > that during each release test cycle? In checklist under RelEng > perhaps? Debian maintains a font table in a wiki for its installer, maybe we can do the same -- Nicolas Mailhot From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Mon Aug 27 20:59:58 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 22:59:58 +0200 Subject: [proposal] fonts comps group In-Reply-To: <1188233261.3135.10.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <1187788395.25291.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1187813560.1994.9.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <46CCE70D.2000303@redhat.com> <46D2DCD4.5030601@redhat.com> <1188233261.3135.10.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1188248398.7701.23.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le lundi 27 ao?t 2007 ? 18:47 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot a ?crit : > BTW after talking with Behdad and upstream on irc we'll probably try to > switch dejavu-lgc & dejavu at the start of the F9 cycle. BTW #2 Supporting unicode blocks like arabic by default is only possible today because the tools have learnt to select different variants of the same glyph depending on the language being rendered (ie farsi users will get farsi-friendly variants, and arabic users arabic-friendly variants at the same codepoints). In particular Behdad Esfahbod recently added "locl" opentype support to Pango. Kuddos to Behdad! However this is not the end of the story. Strictly speaking arabic (and many other non-european scripts) also need support of the "base" opentype feature to be rendered properly (base allows specifying different metrics for different unicode blocks within a single font, and not constrain everything with the metrics of the latin block) Supporting those scripts without base will mean a metric migration once base support is included in the tools at last. ie the fonts will have to be partly re-done, and every office document using them will have layout changes if they use one of the complex scripts (and business users will complain). This will also affect documents that use proprietary pan-unicode fonts such as those produced by the Microsoft Typography group. Therefore I'd like to point out to the PTB it might be a good idea to allocate some time @rh for Behdad to add base support to pango sooner rather than later, and avoid this painful migration altogether. (Of course this assumes the PTB read fedora-devel) Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From petersen at redhat.com Tue Aug 28 06:03:55 2007 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:03:55 +1000 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <46CBCC3B.1010805@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <46CBCC3B.1010805@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <46D3BACB.8090703@redhat.com> Qianqian Fang ????????: > it is a great news for better font support on Fedora. I am curious if > it is possible to consider wqy-bitmap-fonts as the default desktop font > for Chinese locales? I think wqy-bitmap-fonts will be installed by default for Chinese support in Fedora 8 but the truetype cjkunifonts will remain the default desktop font for Chinese for now. Thanks, Jens From fangq at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Tue Aug 28 15:50:19 2007 From: fangq at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu (Qianqian Fang) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:50:19 -0400 Subject: installing more fonts by default for better international coverage In-Reply-To: <46D3BACB.8090703@redhat.com> References: <46CBC689.6000805@redhat.com> <46CBCC3B.1010805@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> <46D3BACB.8090703@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46D4443B.1090503@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> that's great! I am so glad that wqy-bitmap-fonts made it to F8. I am looking forward to contributing more Chinese fonts to Fedora in the near future. Qianqian Jens Petersen wrote: > Qianqian Fang ????????: >> it is a great news for better font support on Fedora. I am curious if >> it is possible to consider wqy-bitmap-fonts as the default desktop font >> for Chinese locales? > > I think wqy-bitmap-fonts will be installed by default for Chinese > support in Fedora 8 but the truetype cjkunifonts will remain the > default desktop font for Chinese for now. > > Thanks, Jens > > -- > Fedora-i18n-list mailing list > Fedora-i18n-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list > > > From katzj at redhat.com Wed Aug 29 21:05:38 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:05:38 -0400 Subject: String changes for pirut to add error messages Message-ID: <1188421538.4554.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> This is a request to break the string freeze for pirut to add some error messages when handling repo editing. Not doing so means we either need to a) rip out the capability b) not handle errors c) only give a generic "Error" type of thing rather than useful error messages d) don't mark the strings for translation and have them show up in English only None of which feel all that right to me. So sound reasonable? Jeremy From dimitris at glezos.com Wed Aug 29 21:15:29 2007 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:15:29 +0100 Subject: String changes for pirut to add error messages In-Reply-To: <1188421538.4554.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1188421538.4554.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1188422129.8082.1.camel@shuttle> ???? 29-08-2007, ????? ???, ??? ??? 17:05 -0400, ?/? Jeremy Katz ??????: > This is a request to break the string freeze for pirut to add some error > messages when handling repo editing. Not doing so means we either need > to > a) rip out the capability > b) not handle errors > c) only give a generic "Error" type of thing rather than useful error > messages > d) don't mark the strings for translation and have them show up in > English only > > None of which feel all that right to me. So sound reasonable? Since the freeze was only yesterday, I'm +1 for changing these. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) --