From petersen at redhat.com Mon Nov 10 00:06:01 2008 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:06:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fwd: Fedora 11 font package changes proposal (renames, splits, etc) In-Reply-To: <1226228950.21652.95.camel@arekh.okg> Message-ID: <1811525679.1147891226275561747.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> FYI: this proposal will affect various fonts packages maintained by fedora-i18n members. Please follow up in fedora-fonts-list if you have comments. Jens -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Nicolas Mailhot Subject: Fedora 11 font package changes proposal (renames, splits, etc) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 12:09:10 +0100 Size: 7704 URL: From petersen at redhat.com Mon Nov 10 01:16:51 2008 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 20:16:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: i18n-team FAS pseudo user Message-ID: <1134414927.1150921226279811848.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> There is now a "i18n-team" pseudo-user in FAS to make it easy to auto CC i18n bugs of i18n packages to fedora-i18n-bugs. If you send me a list of your packages that should auto-CC fedora-i18n-bugs in bugzilla I will add i18n-team as CC to Fedora Package Db for your packages. Please also use "InitialCC: i18n-team" in all future package cvsadmin requests for new i18n related packages: this will make it easier to track all i18n bugs. Thanks, Jens From petersen at redhat.com Mon Nov 10 03:44:32 2008 From: petersen at redhat.com (Jens Petersen) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:44:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: i18n-team FAS pseudo user In-Reply-To: <1134414927.1150921226279811848.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1427094670.1166671226288672112.JavaMail.root@zmail02.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> > There is now a "i18n-team" pseudo-user in FAS to make it easy to auto > CC i18n bugs of i18n packages to fedora-i18n-bugs. > > If you send me a list of your packages that should auto-CC > fedora-i18n-bugs in bugzilla I will add i18n-team as CC to Fedora > Package Db for your packages. I added quite a few packages now: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/users/packages/i18n-team but if you see some missing ones please let me or followup here. -Jens From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Sun Nov 23 13:23:25 2008 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:23:25 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Droid fallback CJK and fontconfig?] Message-ID: <1227446605.20262.11.camel@arekh.okg> Hi, As you probably know Google has released a Droid font set as part of its Android platform. While the font licensing is being clarified https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=472635 (Fedora packaging blocker) I've taken a quick look at the font files. The set includes a huge "Droid Sans Fallback" font with CJK coverage. Could the CJK folks take a look at it and tell me how this font should be treated: as Japanese-only, Chinese-only, Korean-only before/after current CJK defaults, etc? Han unification means someone will probably not be happy about it. I've uploaded preliminary droid packages there http://nim.fedorapeople.org/fontpackages/ so people can check them out. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From fangq at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sun Nov 23 14:45:42 2008 From: fangq at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu (Qianqian Fang) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 09:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Droid fallback CJK and fontconfig?] In-Reply-To: <1227446605.20262.11.camel@arekh.okg> References: <1227446605.20262.11.camel@arekh.okg> Message-ID: <49296C96.8030108@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> hi Nicolas As we discussed last time, I've sent email asking for official confirmation and clarifications of the license in the font metadata. I am now waiting to hear back from them (message attached). The Han glyphs in Droid fallback pretty much follow the Han-unification as in the unicode documentations. That means they look very much close to what Chinese mainland users preferred. The style is Heiti, which is like ttf-wqy-zenhei and is essentially a sans-serif style. There are 16,502 Hanzi in the CJK basic block, which is the union of GB2312 and Big5 charsets. Because this font is targeted at memory-limited devices, there are 15,524 Han glyphs were composed by references, the rest are stand-alone outline glyphs which can not be decomposed into components. It contains no embedded bitmaps, but the outline quality is very good. I believe most zh_* users will be very happy if this font will be used as desktop font (the current zh_* font on Fedora is wqy-bitmapfont which is also using the Han-unification forms). It may be a little bit difficult for Japanese and Korean users though. As this font does not provide the full coverage to all CJK glyphs, in the mean time, I believe the current national standards and regulations in mainland China prefer GBK (same as CJK unified ideographs), or even GB18030 (CJK basic+CJK Ext. A) coverage, so, I've planned to extend this font to at least GBK charset. That means to complete about 4500 glyphs. I and a friend are now working on an online tool to allow people to compose new glyphs from existing Droid components. It is almost working, you can browse the following link for a sample output: (need to view with firefox 3.x) http://wenq.org/enindex.cgi?ViewGlyph#SFD/Droid/%E8%85%AA the GUI is at http://wenq.org/enindex.cgi?BezierGlyph but it only has Chinese instructions so far. Once the license is sorted out, we will start promoting this project among the Chinese users, and make our way toward a more complete CJK font with this extension. I also planned to look into the reference glyphs and seek the possibility of further compression of the font. Similar to the current ttf-wqy-zenhei settings, Chinese users will also be happy to see a mono-spaced face co-existing with the regular face in ttc form. Qianqian Joe Onorato wrote: > Hi Qianqian, > > I'll follow up with the people responsible for fonts. > > -joe > > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Qianqian Fang > wrote: > > hi Joe > > A few weeks ago, I posted a question on android-discussion group, > asking about the droid font licenses: > > http://groups.google.com/group/android-discuss/browse_thread/thread/3c60867cab66e23d/ab69c3174b63ca4c?lnk=gst&q=font#ab69c3174b63ca4c > > > I really appreciate your feedback and confirmation on the license > matter. > > As I am an maintainer for an open-source font project, I also > maintain a few CJKV font packages for Fedora. Recently, I > mentioned my plan of making derived fonts from Droid > font family at fedora's font list, the people in charge appeared > to be very careful, and warned me to obtain a more "official" > clarification on the license before taking further actions. You > can see our discussions at > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-fonts-list/2008-November/msg00009.html > > We both felt that the best way to make the clarifications is to state > it in the metadata section of the font, there are dedicated > "License Description" > and "License Info URL" fields in the name table to specify the > font licenses: > > http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/opentype/index_name.html > > I am wondering if it is possible for android team to update the font > files and clarify the licenses. In this way, people's confusion on > the fonts > and the sdk package will completely go away. > > If you or your team member do have the plan to make this > change, I would be appreciated if you can let me know when > the updated fonts are pushed into svn, so I can mobilize my > team to start planned works around these fonts. > > thank you so much for your time and looking forward to your reply. > > Qianqian > > Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Hi, > > As you probably know Google has released a Droid font set as part of its > Android platform. While the font licensing is being clarified > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=472635 > (Fedora packaging blocker) I've taken a quick look at the font files. > > The set includes a huge "Droid Sans Fallback" font with CJK coverage. > Could the CJK folks take a look at it and tell me how this font should > be treated: as Japanese-only, Chinese-only, Korean-only before/after > current CJK defaults, etc? Han unification means someone will probably > not be happy about it. > > I've uploaded preliminary droid packages there > http://nim.fedorapeople.org/fontpackages/ > > so people can check them out. > > Regards, > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > Fedora-i18n-list mailing list > Fedora-i18n-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list From fangqq at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 14:59:26 2008 From: fangqq at gmail.com (Qianqian Fang) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 09:59:26 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Droid fallback CJK and fontconfig?]] Message-ID: <49296FCE.7000905@gmail.com> resend to i18n list. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Fwd: Droid fallback CJK and fontconfig?] Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 09:47:51 -0500 From: Qianqian Fang To: fedora-fonts-list at redhat.com, Fedora internationalization discussions CC: Joe Onorato References: <1227446605.20262.11.camel at arekh.okg> hi Nicolas As we discussed last time, I've sent email asking for official confirmation and clarifications of the license in the font metadata. I am now waiting to hear back from them (message attached). The Han glyphs in Droid fallback pretty much follow the Han-unification as in the unicode documentations. That means they look very much close to what Chinese mainland users preferred. The style is Heiti, which is like ttf-wqy-zenhei and is essentially a sans-serif style. There are 16,502 Hanzi in the CJK basic block, which is the union of GB2312 and Big5 charsets. Because this font is targeted at memory-limited devices, there are 15,524 Han glyphs were composed by references, the rest are stand-alone outline glyphs which can not be decomposed into components. It contains no embedded bitmaps, but the outline quality is very good. I believe most zh_* users will be very happy if this font will be used as desktop font (the current zh_* font on Fedora is wqy-bitmapfont which is also using the Han-unification forms). It may be a little bit difficult for Japanese and Korean users though. As this font does not provide the full coverage to all CJK glyphs, in the mean time, I believe the current national standards and regulations in mainland China prefer GBK (same as CJK unified ideographs), or even GB18030 (CJK basic+CJK Ext. A) coverage, so, I've planned to extend this font to at least GBK charset. That means to complete about 4500 glyphs. I and a friend are now working on an online tool to allow people to compose new glyphs from existing Droid components. It is almost working, you can browse the following link for a sample output: (need to view with firefox 3.x) http://wenq.org/enindex.cgi?ViewGlyph#SFD/Droid/%E8%85%AA the GUI is at http://wenq.org/enindex.cgi?BezierGlyph but it only has Chinese instructions so far. Once the license is sorted out, we will start promoting this project among the Chinese users, and make our way toward a more complete CJK font with this extension. I also planned to look into the reference glyphs and seek the possibility of further compression of the font. Similar to the current ttf-wqy-zenhei settings, Chinese users will also be happy to see a mono-spaced face co-existing with the regular face in ttc form. Qianqian Joe Onorato wrote: > Hi Qianqian, > > I'll follow up with the people responsible for fonts. > > -joe > > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Qianqian Fang > wrote: > > hi Joe > > A few weeks ago, I posted a question on android-discussion group, > asking about the droid font licenses: > > http://groups.google.com/group/android-discuss/browse_thread/thread/3c60867cab66e23d/ab69c3174b63ca4c?lnk=gst&q=font#ab69c3174b63ca4c > > > I really appreciate your feedback and confirmation on the license > matter. > > As I am an maintainer for an open-source font project, I also > maintain a few CJKV font packages for Fedora. Recently, I > mentioned my plan of making derived fonts from Droid > font family at fedora's font list, the people in charge appeared > to be very careful, and warned me to obtain a more "official" > clarification on the license before taking further actions. You > can see our discussions at > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-fonts-list/2008-November/msg00009.html > > We both felt that the best way to make the clarifications is to state > it in the metadata section of the font, there are dedicated > "License Description" > and "License Info URL" fields in the name table to specify the > font licenses: > > http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/opentype/index_name.html > > I am wondering if it is possible for android team to update the font > files and clarify the licenses. In this way, people's confusion on > the fonts > and the sdk package will completely go away. > > If you or your team member do have the plan to make this > change, I would be appreciated if you can let me know when > the updated fonts are pushed into svn, so I can mobilize my > team to start planned works around these fonts. > > thank you so much for your time and looking forward to your reply. > > Qianqian > > Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Hi, > > As you probably know Google has released a Droid font set as part of its > Android platform. While the font licensing is being clarified > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=472635 > (Fedora packaging blocker) I've taken a quick look at the font files. > > The set includes a huge "Droid Sans Fallback" font with CJK coverage. > Could the CJK folks take a look at it and tell me how this font should > be treated: as Japanese-only, Chinese-only, Korean-only before/after > current CJK defaults, etc? Han unification means someone will probably > not be happy about it. > > I've uploaded preliminary droid packages there > http://nim.fedorapeople.org/fontpackages/ > > so people can check them out. > > Regards, > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > Fedora-i18n-list mailing list > Fedora-i18n-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list _______________________________________________ Fedora-fonts-list mailing list Fedora-fonts-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-fonts-list From fangqq at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 16:30:36 2008 From: fangqq at gmail.com (Qianqian Fang) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:30:36 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Droid fallback CJK and fontconfig?] In-Reply-To: <1227446605.20262.11.camel@arekh.okg> References: <1227446605.20262.11.camel@arekh.okg> Message-ID: <4929852C.6080608@gmail.com> Just a few more words about default Chinese font settings. There seem be a distinct dividing line among the Chinese users for their font preferences: on one side of the line, they really prefer sharp-looking bitmaped Chinese glyphs, while, the other side have strong preference in the smooth-looking of AA-ed vector rendering. The contradictions between these two groups can be constantly felt in almost all Chinese Linux forums. Using Ubuntu as an example, when Ubuntu 8.04 set wqy-zenhei as the default Chinese Sans font, it has the embedded bitmaps turned on by default. There was a strong rally against using the embedded bitmaps, because they like the vector form of ZenHei. I have to put instructions on our front page to tell people how to turn off the bitmaps. After a 400-participant survey, somebody proved that vector-preferred users are about 3:1 to the bitmap ones http://forum.ubuntu.org.cn/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=120639 (in Chinese) So, in 8.10, the bitmaps in ZenHei was turned off. Now, the CN forum of ubuntu is flooded with complains of losing their "sharp-looking glyphs", and asking how to turn on the bitmaps. I had to make another sticky post at our website to teach people how to turn it back on. What I want to say is, these two groups both have significant number of supporters. As the current settings on Fedora is the bitmap way. I would anticipate some disturbance among the users for the font style switching from one to the other if we decide to use Droid(or derivatives) as the default. Hope the font-selector tool can be released timely to help sorting out the font preference chaos: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/font-selector Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Hi, > > As you probably know Google has released a Droid font set as part of its > Android platform. While the font licensing is being clarified > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=472635 > (Fedora packaging blocker) I've taken a quick look at the font files. > > The set includes a huge "Droid Sans Fallback" font with CJK coverage. > Could the CJK folks take a look at it and tell me how this font should > be treated: as Japanese-only, Chinese-only, Korean-only before/after > current CJK defaults, etc? Han unification means someone will probably > not be happy about it. > > I've uploaded preliminary droid packages there > http://nim.fedorapeople.org/fontpackages/ > > so people can check them out. > > Regards, > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > Fedora-i18n-list mailing list > Fedora-i18n-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Sun Nov 23 16:54:27 2008 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:54:27 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Droid fallback CJK and fontconfig?] In-Reply-To: <49296D17.3050703@gmail.com> References: <1227446605.20262.11.camel@arekh.okg> <49296D17.3050703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1227459267.25325.15.camel@arekh.okg> Le dimanche 23 novembre 2008 ? 09:47 -0500, Qianqian Fang a ?crit : > hi Nicolas > The Han glyphs in Droid fallback pretty much follow the Han-unification > as in the unicode documentations. That means they look very much close > to what Chinese mainland users preferred. The style is Heiti, which is like > ttf-wqy-zenhei and is essentially a sans-serif style. There are 16,502 Hanzi > in the CJK basic block, which is the union of GB2312 and Big5 charsets. > Because this font is targeted at memory-limited devices, there are > 15,524 Han glyphs were composed by references, the rest are stand-alone > outline glyphs which can not be decomposed into components. > It contains no embedded bitmaps, but the outline quality is very good. > I believe most zh_* users will be very happy if this font will be used > as desktop font (the current zh_* font on Fedora is wqy-bitmapfont > which is also using the Han-unification forms). It may be a little bit > difficult for Japanese and Korean users though. [?] > Just a few more words about default Chinese font settings. > > There seem be a distinct dividing line among the Chinese > users for their font preferences: on one side of the line, > they really prefer sharp-looking bitmaped Chinese glyphs, while, > the other side have strong preference in the smooth-looking of > AA-ed vector rendering. The contradictions between these two > groups can be constantly felt in almost all Chinese Linux > forums. So, would the attached fontconfig file be ok according to your knowledge of Chinese users? (installed as 65-google-droid-sans-fallback.conf) I'm quite happy to learn that even among Chinese people prefer vector fonts. I prefer them myself, and IMHO they are the future anyway :p. However, to keep everyone happy, can you share with us what your declinaison of vector/bitmap fontconfig rules would be for Droid? It's quite easy for me to put two different files in the rpm, with only one linked in /etc/conf.d/ by default. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: google-droid-fonts-sans-fallback-fontconfig.conf Type: application/xml Size: 1295 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From fangqq at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 19:24:48 2008 From: fangqq at gmail.com (Qianqian Fang) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:24:48 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Droid fallback CJK and fontconfig?] In-Reply-To: <1227459267.25325.15.camel@arekh.okg> References: <1227446605.20262.11.camel@arekh.okg> <49296D17.3050703@gmail.com> <1227459267.25325.15.camel@arekh.okg> Message-ID: <4929AE00.80300@gmail.com> Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > So, would the attached fontconfig file be ok according to your knowledge > of Chinese users? (installed as 65-google-droid-sans-fallback.conf) Since you already have zh_tw in the match sets, why not also include zh_hk, zh_sg and zh_mo? In the current version of wqy-bitmap-fonts package, we have something like zh maybe Bedhdad can comment on whether this form is recommended or not. Alternatively, ... The default zh_* font wqy-bitmap-fonts has 61-wqy-bitmapsong.conf, which claimed priorities for sans and serif aliases. If we want to set Droid as the default in the future, the interactions of these two files should be investigated. > I'm quite happy to learn that even among Chinese people prefer vector > fonts. I prefer them myself, and IMHO they are the future anyway :p. > Song-Ti style font (such as arphic-uming) vector rendering is still too blurry to be accepted by most Chinese users. However, the Hei-Ti style (semi-bold sans) Chinese fonts, such as wqy-zenhei-fonts, fonts from MS vista and Mac OS, have emboldened strokes and are not bad at all for screen use. Most of these vector supporters were attracted by one of these Hei-ti fonts. > However, to keep everyone happy, can you share with us what your > declinaison of vector/bitmap fontconfig rules would be for Droid? It's > quite easy for me to put two different files in the rpm, with only one > linked in /etc/conf.d/ by default. > Both are working fine with me, I mean either 1) bitmap Chinese + vector non-CJK glyphs or 2) vector sans-serif font for both Chinese and non-Chinese. Setting hintstyle to hintslight with subpixel-hinting on works the best for vector one on my LCD. Since Droid does not come with embedded bitmaps, the only way to get bitmap+Droid working is to use fontconfig to synthesize with the presence of wqy-bitmap-fonts. I support your idea of making two files in conf.avail and link one, which is the current wqy-zenhei settings in Ubuntu (we have 44-wqy-zenhei.conf and 66-wqy-zenhei-sharp.conf). But letting the ordinary users to switch between the two settings is still kind of difficult, you have to tell them exactly what to do and put these instructions in a highly visible place. > Regards, > >