Meeting Log - 2007-12-13

Ricky Zhou ricky at
Thu Dec 13 20:53:21 UTC 2007

15:01 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Who's here
15:01  * ricky 
15:01  * lmacken 
15:01  * f13 
15:01  * mmcgrath 
15:01  * jeremy  
15:01 < jeremy> (although I might disappear in a few)
15:02  * jima 
15:02  * jima may disappear at any time, for any or no reason
15:03 -!- bpepple [n=bpepple at] has quit "Ex-Chat"
15:03 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: ping
15:03 < mmcgrath> skvidal: ping
15:03 < mmcgrath> abadger1999: ping
15:03 < mmcgrath> lmacken: ping
15:03 < skvidal> pong
15:03 < mmcgrath> ivazquez: ping
15:03 < paulobanon> pong
15:03 < mmcgrath> iWolf: ping
15:03 -!- notting [i=notting at redhat/notting] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:03 < dgilmore> sup mmcgrath
15:03 < skvidal> -1
15:03 < abadger1999> pong
15:03 < dgilmore> -1
15:03 < ricky> That was fast :)
15:03 < skvidal> oh, wait, sorry, no one asked for a vote on anything, yet
15:03 < paulobanon> yay, in the office working and meeting here so i might split soonish
15:03 < mmcgrath> hehe not voting quite yet.
15:03 < skvidal> -1 anyway
15:03 < mmcgrath> warren: ping
15:03  * warren here
15:03 < mmcgrath> ping anyone else I forgot to ping: ping!
15:04 < dgilmore> skvidal: the answer is always no
15:04 < skvidal> damn right
15:04 < dgilmore> oh wait its 42
15:04 -!- stahnma [n=stahnma at] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:04 < jima> dgilmore: 42 "no"s
15:04 < skvidal> dgilmore: or "Run Away"
15:04 < skvidal> which is also a good answer
15:04 < mmcgrath> k, lets get started.
15:04 < mmcgrath> First up is meeting items
15:04 < skvidal> and "I don't care what the machine says, I NEVER TOUCHED THE MAN"
15:04 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Meeting Items
15:04 < mmcgrath> .tiny
15:04 < mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath:
15:05 -!- giarc [n=cwt at] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:05 < mmcgrath> .ticket 192
15:05 < mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath: #192 (Netapp low on free space) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
15:05 < mmcgrath> f13: how's the GC stuff going?
15:07 < f13> mmcgrath: a question for mikem, on how close we are to automation.
15:07 < f13> mmcgrath: I think he said we needed some server changes before we could fully automate, but those should be rolled into the new upstream koji release we're doing before the refresh
15:07 < f13> we've got a ton of packages that could be flushed soon.
15:07 -!- MrBawb [i=abob at] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:07 < f13> so if we get critical we can flush the trash and recover a lot of space
15:08 -!- mikem23 [i=iimike at nat/redhat/x-b06c3d5d18f5e9d0] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:08 -!- loupgaroublond [n=yankee at] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:08 < mmcgrath> mikem23: yo, we're talking about GC and were wondering how all of that is going.
15:08 < mmcgrath> how close are we to automation on it?
15:09 < jima> i asked the other day if it was feasible to put a control for maintainers to flag (scratch?) builds for deletion sooner rather than later
15:09 < mikem23> mmcgrath, well, I have the cronjobs in place (granted I need to move them to the new host).
15:09 < jima> not sure who the best person to talk to that about is, though.
15:09 < mikem23> mmcgrath, there are some issues I need to smooth out.
15:10 < mmcgrath> jima: your best bet is to file a ticket in the koji queue.
15:10 < mmcgrath> mikem23: solid, but you don't see any blockers or anything that would prevent us from doing automation in the near future?
15:10 < mikem23> 1 - there are some issues that tend to cause some of the nightly gc scripts to fail
15:10 < jima> mmcgrath: *nod*
15:11 < mikem23> 2 - I need to get a few small updates to the koji hub to reduce memory/network usage and fix a silly bug.
15:11 < mikem23> 3 - I need to play with frequency.
15:12 < mikem23> mmcgrath, in principle it's automated now.
15:12 -!- G__ [n=njones at wikipedia/NigelJ] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:12 < warren> Is GC alone going to keep us running through the holidays without more storage
15:12 < mikem23> being run through cron sounds automated to me
15:12 < mmcgrath> just needs some tweaking then?
15:12 < warren> ?
15:12 < mikem23> ok, so about space...
15:12 < mikem23> basically /mnt/koji is too small
15:13 < dgilmore> mikem23: we are working on making it bigger
15:13 < mikem23> now, there are a healthy number of builds headed for deletion in about two weeks
15:13 < mikem23> see, the gc has these grace periods
15:14 < mikem23> if we get desperate, we flush the trashcan by overriding the grace period
15:14 < mikem23> right now the grace period is set to two weeks
15:14 < mmcgrath> <nod>  Its good to know what our options are.
15:15 < mikem23> explains the gc lifecycle
15:15 < f13> I'm farily confident that with what we have queued up to flush, we should be able to make it through the holidays
15:15 < mmcgrath> f13: excellent.
15:15 < mmcgrath> anyone have anything else regarding GC or ticket 192?
15:16 < paulobanon> any plans yet for more storage ?
15:16 < paulobanon> or only after the results of the gc
15:16 < mmcgrath> paulobanon: the plans are in motion but these things always take time.
15:16 < mmcgrath> I should send a followup and see how far along we are.
15:17 < paulobanon> sounds good
15:17 < mmcgrath> anything else?
15:17 < mmcgrath> allrighty, we'll move on.
15:17 < mmcgrath> .ticket 270
15:17 < mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath: #270 (Fedora Wiki allows editing raw HTML) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
15:17 < mmcgrath> This is an issue discovered recently and I think it warrents some discussion.
15:17 < mmcgrath> ricky: care to explain further?
15:17 < jima> is there anything on the wiki that genuinely needs raw html?
15:18 < ricky> jima: I think some of the group banners use it, don't remember if the front page uses it right now.
15:18 < mikem23> I don't think the main wiki page would look quite as nice without raw html, but maybe I'm wrong.
15:18  * mikem23 checks
15:18  * jima would have clicked the search link, but didn't want to abuse the poor wiki
15:18 < ricky> Basically, it's possible to put javascript, etc. on the wiki that could access cookies, etc
15:19 < mikem23> ok, I think I'm wrong about that
15:19 < f13> some of the irc logs page use html
15:19 < f13> and I think some of the fever stuff used html
15:19 < ricky> With this version of Moin's auth, the only cookie should be a MOIN_ID (which would just give full control over the wiki account), but that's pretty much the full extent of it.
15:20 < dgilmore> ricky: that could be bad
15:20 < mikem23> we should probably look at how raw html is used and see is we can replace it with macros instead
15:20 < abadger1999> dgilmore: Moin's cookie is already subject to sniffing....
15:20 < mmcgrath> So the options here are A) Acknowledge the security issue and try to negate it as much as possible or B) disable html editing.
15:21 < lmacken> 416 pages are using raw html
15:21 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: i vote to disable it
15:21 < mmcgrath> Anyone interested in keeping it?
15:21 < lmacken> err.. maybe not pages, but "matches"
15:22 < mmcgrath> ricky: what would happen to the current pages if we did disable it?
15:22 < paulobanon> we will have to announce it prior to the disable to make sure that the other teams fix their stuff
15:22  * ricky tests something.
15:22 < mmcgrath> paulobanon: yeah
15:22 < abadger1999> If upstream moin implements a "safe html"  which doesn't accept scripts we could reenable.
15:22 < mmcgrath> its possible they already have that and we just don't know it.
15:23 < paulobanon> abadger1999: im sure they wont implement anything new until 1.6 is out, until we do it our selfs and offer the patch to them
15:23 < paulobanon> mmcgrath: last time i checked we were using the latest Moin-stable
15:23 < paulobanon> havent checked for the last 1 or 2 months though
15:23 -!- G [n=njones at wikipedia/NigelJ] has quit Connection timed out
15:24 < mmcgrath> ricky: what are you testing and how long will it take? :)
15:24 < ricky> Looks like it'll just show the HTML source.
15:24 < abadger1999> paulobanon: I checked ~1 week ago and we're still on the latest stable.
15:24 < mmcgrath> k
15:24 < ricky> (just looking at what {{{#!fake test}}} does)
15:24 < mmcgrath> I also say we disable it until such a time comes that we can make sure scripts won't be allowed.
15:24 < lmacken> we would probably lose stuff like the spiffy sidebar in
15:25 < mmcgrath> ricky: paulobanon: will one of you guys put together a one or two week plan to notify everyone about what we're going to do, why and then do it?
15:25 < loupgaroublond> is it possible to make a template that provides sidebar like capabilities in moin?
15:26 < paulobanon> loupgaroublond: i think that there is a theme with some sidebars, not sure though
15:26 < ricky> loupgaroublond: Yeah, I think we can create macros that output certain HTML.
15:27 < loupgaroublond> that answers lmacken's question then :)
15:27 < paulobanon> mmcgrath: sounds good. Is there any "general" ML that can be used to inform everyone related ?
15:27 < warren> "safe html" in other sites has proven to be ... unsafe
15:27 < warren> everyone reinvents the wheel and gets it wrong
15:28 < paulobanon> warren: sad, but true
15:28 < mmcgrath> paulobanon: send an email to fedora-announce-list, I don't think enough of the right people are on fedora-devel-announce
15:28 -!- cwt_ [n=cwt at] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:28  * ricky sees, I'll start looking at create macros for common uses.
15:28 < warren> "Sorry, your your new trapezoidal wheel isn't working out for us."
15:30 < mmcgrath> Solid, anyone have anything else to comment on that ticket?
15:30 < MrBawb> speaking of safe html, I'm looking at an exploit that gets in via an activex exploit
15:30 < MrBawb> and uploads a keylogger to windows machines
15:31 < mmcgrath> ok, moving on.  To the vote!
15:31 < mmcgrath> .ticket 283
15:31 < mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath: #283 (Vote: Support Monotone?) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
15:31 < mmcgrath> Little background.
15:31 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: there website lists "Monotone is slow, doesn't scale well to large codebases and historeis."
15:31 < mmcgrath> We've had a request from Roland McGrath to support monotone because he wants to host elfutils on fedora hosted.
15:31 -!- llaumgui [n=llaumgui at] has quit Remote closed the connection
15:31 < dgilmore> eww
15:31 < mmcgrath> I've not heard back whether or not it can even be integrated with FAS but assuming it can, lets take the vote.
15:32 < mmcgrath> ============= Vote Start 2 minutes ===========
15:32 < dgilmore> -1
15:32 -!- llaumgui [n=llaumgui at] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:32 < f13> I won't vote until the questions I asked on list are answered.
15:32 < abadger1999> +0  I'm not against monotone.  I am against monotone without some monotone-familiar admins joining infra.
15:32 < loupgaroublond> who is eligible to vote?
15:32 < f13> or rather, I won't vote /for/ monotone
15:32 -!- llaumgui [n=llaumgui at] has quit Remote closed the connection
15:32 < mmcgrath> f13: would you like us to vote next week?
15:33 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: id like to see us support elfutils  but i dont see what we gain by monotone
15:33 < f13> mmcgrath: well, if we don't have anybody who can answer the questions I posed, I"ll just vote -1
15:33 -!- bpepple [n=bpepple at] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:33 < lmacken> I'm all for turning elfutils into an open source project (finally).. but unless roland or someone else steps up to help us with monotone, I'm a bit weary towards it
15:34 < mmcgrath> lmacken: I'm not even sure I like the sound of that.
15:34 < mmcgrath> I worry about people showing up to work on just one thing.
15:34 < lmacken> yeah, true
15:34 < mmcgrath> they tend not to be around when you need them.
15:35 < mmcgrath> Ok, I think monotone is a bit unclear to all of us here, let me see if we can get Roland to answer these questions by next week and we'll vote then.  In the meantime we can all do a little research.
15:35 < mmcgrath> I guess we're not in a hurry to say yes or no to it.
15:35  * ricky sees
15:35 < mmcgrath> ================ Vote End ===============
15:35 < loupgaroublond> is there any chance that one project can be moved over to another scm?
15:35 -!- llaumgui [n=llaumgui at] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:35 < mmcgrath> we'll do it next week.
15:35 < mmcgrath> loupgaroublond: what do you mean?
15:36 < loupgaroublond> have him switch over to git or hg, or does it have to be monotone?
15:36 < warren> I've used monotone myself, it is very capable, the pidgin project uses it.
15:36 < warren> loupgaroublond, or bzr
15:36 < loupgaroublond> or bzr, sure :)
15:36 < mmcgrath> loupgaroublond: I haven't specifically asked that but I will.
15:37 < loupgaroublond> i'm not asking if monotone is good or not, i'm jsut asking if we can ask roland to switch to something else, because i feel like this debate could get very hairy otherwise
15:38 -!- jcollie [n=jcollie at] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:38 < abadger1999> ricky: That's a good doc.  That seems like half the battle.  Still have to find out about anonymous access.
15:38 < warren> It does add risk to our server to add more and more different systems
15:38  * mmcgrath really wants to leave it at 4 systems.
15:38 < warren> we might justify adding monotone only if several other projects want it
15:38 < mmcgrath> err scms.
15:39 < loupgaroublond> does trac support monotone?
15:39 < ricky> loupgaroublond: I saw a plugin mentioned, but pidgin's trac doesn't seem to have support enabled.
15:39 -!- giarc [n=cwt at] has quit Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
15:39  * mmcgrath just sent jesse's questions and some others to Roland McGrath, we should know more next week.
15:39  * ricky recalls the "fun" that we've already had with the git plugin.
15:40  * mmcgrath blames the git plugin for all the zombie git processes we see on hosted1.
15:40 < mmcgrath> anywho.
15:40  * abadger1999 notes that gna has support four three SCMs so we're not the only project with multiple SCMs for hosting.
15:40 < mmcgrath> anyone have anything else to discuss on this topic?
15:40 < abadger1999> s/four/for/
15:40 < mmcgrath> abadger1999: excellent, which scms are they?
15:40 < abadger1999> cvs, svn, and tla
15:41 < warren> we're in way better shape
15:41 < warren> those suck =)
15:41 < abadger1999> Well... way more modern :-)
15:41 < mmcgrath> :)
15:41  * paulobanon wants to do an off-time vote -1
15:41 < mmcgrath> Alrighty, moving on....
15:42 -!- J5 [i=quintice at nat/redhat/x-6905b79a0881d913] has quit "Ex-Chat"
15:42 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Schedule
15:42 < mmcgrath>
15:42 < mmcgrath> Nothing much new going on there.
15:42 -!- J5 [i=quintice at nat/redhat/x-85cfe85621f1df08] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:42 < mmcgrath> The coporate sponsorship is still the same though we need to get pier1 or serverbeach's logo on the hosted site (I'm still waiting for them to send it)
15:43 < mmcgrath> no new documentation or SOP's that I can think of from this week.
15:43 < mmcgrath> And no new sponsors that I can think of.
15:43 < mmcgrath> so, nothing there.
15:43 < mmcgrath> and with that...
15:43 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Open Floor
15:43 < mmcgrath> does anyone have anything they'd like to discuss?
15:43 < paulobanon> anything new with the bladecenter or the german server ?
15:43 < mmcgrath> Nothing new with the blade center.
15:44 < mmcgrath> the german server got shipped to a RH office and is now being shipped to the colo.
15:44 < skvidal> are we going to have a meeting next week?
15:44  * mmcgrath not sure what happened there but is trying to find out so it doesn't happen in the future.
15:44 < skvidal> I ask b/c I'm sure a lot of people are traveling or planning travel
15:44 < mmcgrath> skvidal: on the 20th?
15:44 < dgilmore> skvidal: hope not  ill be on a train i think
15:44 < paulobanon> its my birthday!
15:44 < paulobanon> :D
15:44 < mmcgrath> skvidal: I'll go ahead and try to schedule one but if no one shows up it will likely be very very short.
15:45 < skvidal> okie doke
15:45 < skvidal> I'll be around
15:45 < skvidal> I just thought I'd ask
15:45 < abadger1999> I wrote an initial patch to get moin to handle subscriptions better.  MrBawb has been doing an excellent job of enhancing that.
15:45 < mmcgrath> yeah if you guys haven't seen MrBawb's benchmarking you should, he's done a good job.
15:45 < paulobanon> mmcgrath: where can i read it ?
15:46 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: my train gets to union station at 12:15pm next thurs
15:46 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: you've got a busy day ahead of you :)
15:46 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: that i do
15:46 < mmcgrath> MrBawb: where are your benchmarks?
15:46 < abadger1999> MrBawb is working on getting it to the place that upstream will accept it.
15:47 < abadger1999> I think we should start thinking about whether/when we want to apply it to our installation.
15:47 < ricky> Curious - what's the ACL patch that we're currently using?
15:47 < MrBawb> mmcgrath:
15:48 < MrBawb> right now I'm working on getting the code to the standards that the MoinMoin people want
15:48 < MrBawb> naming, and using their locking,e tc
15:48 < mmcgrath> ricky: it allows us to set an acl on say /InfrastructurePrivate/ and having it automatically apply to /InfrastructurePrivate/CreditCards
15:49 < ricky> Aha.
15:49 < mmcgrath> Alrighty, anyone have anything else?  If not I'll close the meeting in 30.
15:51 < mmcgrath> 15
15:51 < mmcgrath> 5
15:51 < paulobanon> go go go
15:51 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Meeting Closed!
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