Meeting Log - 2007-10-18

Ricky Zhou ricky at
Thu Oct 18 21:03:47 UTC 2007

16:01:50 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Meeting Role Call!
16:02:25  * ricky is here.
16:02:39  * couf 
16:02:54 -!- notting [i=notting at redhat/notting] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:04:01 < mmcgrath> abadger1999: dgilmore f13 jima ivazquez lmacken skvidal mbacovsk paulobanon ricky 
                     warren: PING
16:04:06 < mmcgrath> anyone I missed poing
16:04:06 < skvidal> pong
16:04:14 < warren> pong
16:04:27  * lmacken 
16:04:29 < abadger1999> oh it's meetin' time again!
16:04:54  * abadger1999 has to find a unicode codepoint for musical notes
16:05:10 < warren> Heh... remember ANSI?
16:05:25 < warren> You could play tunes with ANSI codes if the client didn't disable it.
16:05:32  * dgilmore is here
16:05:36 < mmcgrath> Ok, lets get started
16:05:51 < skvidal> get this party bouncing, dj
16:06:07 < dgilmore> yo DJ spin that wheel
16:06:43 < skvidal> boom, kissh, boom, kissh
16:07:06  * mmcgrath has slow internet right now, downloading games spin.
16:07:24 < ricky> :)
16:07:40 < skvidal> so you can't keep the party bouncing?
16:07:43 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Tickets
16:07:48 < mmcgrath> .tiny
16:07:49 < mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath:
16:07:58 < mmcgrath> First ticket
16:08:02 < mmcgrath> .ticket 154
16:08:04 < mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath: #154 (DNS) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac
16:08:15 < mmcgrath> not too much going on with that right now.
16:08:28 < mmcgrath> Externally I'm trying to get all of our non SSL traffic moved to the 
            A record.
16:08:45 < mmcgrath> This makes it very easy to deploy multiple proxies.
16:08:57 < mmcgrath> Next Ticket:
16:09:00 < mmcgrath> .ticket 170
16:09:01 < f13> here, sort of.
16:09:02 < mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath: #170 (Hosting respins) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac
16:09:10 < mmcgrath> f13: I'll have a question for you in a bit.
16:09:14 < f13> k
16:09:21 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: do we have any space for that?
16:09:26 < mmcgrath> So hosting respins is going fine, I've got a gaming spin I'm going to upload to 
                     spins.fp.o tonight.  I'm getting it from Jeremy.
16:09:31 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: yeah, we have space.
16:09:54 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: do we have space for secondary archs?
16:09:58 < mmcgrath> Also, the Creative Commons team has requested space and I have granted it. I'm 
                     still a little unclear about some of the details.
16:10:09 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: to host respins on torrent for secondary archs?
16:10:24 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: to host the primary builds
16:10:31 < dgilmore> torrents of them would be nice
16:10:33 < mmcgrath> oh, no.  not even close :)
16:10:43 < mmcgrath> we don't really even have space right now to host our own stuff.
16:10:54  * mmcgrath notes lack of backups of koji for the last 6 months.
16:11:12 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: I'm working on that but so far its a no go.
16:11:18 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: ok
16:11:31 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: do we have space to host secondary arch torrents
16:11:38 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: that does bring us to our next ticket though.
16:11:51 < jima> ack
16:11:57 < jima> sorry folks, work beckoned.
16:12:01 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: depends on how much space you need.  If a respin would be 3-5G, I think 
                     we can squeeze it.
16:12:12 < mmcgrath> if its the entire distro, we just don't have it right now.
16:12:17 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: well sparc will have to have a cd set and dvd
16:12:20 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: how much space we talking about for respins?
16:12:33 < dgilmore> though cd set will be much more used than dvd
16:13:06 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: i would guess each arch will require 3-6gb of space
16:13:17 < dgilmore> depending on cd/dvd output
16:13:33 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: if we keep it in that range I think we'll be ok.
16:13:49 < mmcgrath> Anyone have any questions about respins?
16:14:03 < dgilmore> what ones are we saying we will host?
16:14:31 < mmcgrath> dgilmore:
16:14:38 < mmcgrath> The only exception to taht really is the CC spin.
16:15:10 < mmcgrath> Which just kind of appeared.
16:15:26 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: so just games and CC right now
16:15:47 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: i guess my previous question was about hosting it at torrent.fp.o
16:15:52 < mmcgrath> I'm under the understanding that FEL and KDE are approved as well, if they're not 
                     someone should let releng know.
16:16:07 < mmcgrath> ahh, yeah.  A lot of what is at torrent.fp.o will no longer be there.
16:16:13 < dgilmore> will they not be on torrent?
16:16:17 < ricky> FEL?  Fedora Enterprise Linux?  :)
16:16:25 < mmcgrath> The emphasis being on "official torrent.fp.o" vs (community)
16:16:27 < ricky> Ohh.
16:16:29 < ricky> Electronic Lab.
16:16:38 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: same box, but different branding.
16:16:42 < dgilmore> FEL is approved
16:16:53 < dgilmore> KDE i think is safe to say its approved
16:17:00 < dgilmore> since we released it with F-7
16:17:07 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: :)  ok
16:17:18 < mmcgrath> K, so yeah, kde, games, FEL will all be on the spins site (and not the torrent 
                     site) as I understand it.
16:17:20 -!- halfline [i=rstrode at nat/redhat/x-dcd5a0061fad2571] has quit Read error: 104 (Connection 
          reset by peer)
16:17:28 < dgilmore> secondary archs fall somewhere in between
16:17:36 < mmcgrath> the only exception to that is kde might get moved to the torrent site.  Thats more 
                     of a branding thing so I should ping marketing about it and see what they say.
16:17:53 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: i would say put it on the official site
16:18:00 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: yeah, I'd say secondary arch's should be on spins just because there will 
                     be more flexability (there will be an individual project page for each spin, 
                     explaining it, etc)
16:18:02 -!- halfline [i=rstrode at nat/redhat/x-f2922abb3c9a1626] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:18:04 < dgilmore> those KDE fanatics are vocal and crazy
16:18:12 < mmcgrath> :)
16:18:28 < mmcgrath> Ok, anyone have anything else about re-spins?
16:18:37  * dgilmore is out of noise
16:18:53 < mmcgrath> Ok, next ticket
16:19:00 < mmcgrath> .ticket 192
16:19:04 < mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath: #192 (Netapp low on free space) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac
16:19:15 < mmcgrath> f13: ping
16:19:18 -!- pingou_laptop [n=Pingou at fedora/pingou] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:19:21 < mmcgrath> mbacovsk: ping
16:19:25 < f13> mmcgrath: yes?
16:19:28 < mmcgrath> err mbonnet
16:19:43 < mmcgrath> f13: did the cleanup script get implemented?
16:19:47 < mmcgrath> mbacovsk: unping, sorry.
16:20:02 < f13> Last I heard from mikem is that he's still running some tests for the gc.  We were 
                getting him access to koji.fp.o as the network issues have been hampering him pretty 
16:20:13  * ivazquez is here now
16:20:24 < mmcgrath> ivazquez: yo
16:20:59 -!- petreu [n=peter at fedora/Standby] has quit "( :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: 
16:21:01 < dgilmore> f13: he has the access  he needs now right?
16:21:02 < mmcgrath> f13: Can we have him move on it?  No one has any idea how much space will be freed 
                     up and if its not as much as we'd hope we'll be in a LOT of trouble.
16:21:16 < f13> dgilmore: I'm not sure.
16:21:17 < dgilmore> f13: do we have any idea how much space we will free up?
16:21:28 < f13> dgilmore: I don't, that's what the tests are for.
16:21:31 < warren> what is the gc policy?
16:21:37 < f13> warren: complicated (:
16:21:44 < warren> is it written down anywherE?
16:21:46 < mmcgrath> .tiny
16:21:46 < mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath:
16:21:54 < f13> warren: yes, in the policy definition.
16:21:54 < mmcgrath> I mean, that is getting to a worst case scenario.
16:22:01 < warren> f13, where?
16:22:16 < f13> warren: you'll have to ask mikem.  It's not written out anywhere because we don't have 
                it installed anywhere.
16:22:57 < ivazquez> Not even as a proposal?
16:23:11 < warren> I see that at roughly 10PM yesterday we solved our space problem for about an hour. =)
16:23:14 < mmcgrath> f13: Lets say gc doesn't do anything significant.  What do we do?  Will you guys 
                     have more funding for space?  I've been asking around but so far no one has been 
                     able to provide any donations.
16:23:15 -!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_away
16:23:43 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: without gc we are looking at ~3tb a year growth without adding much more 
                     to the distro correct
16:23:58 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: and that doesn't include package growth.
16:24:01 < f13> mmcgrath: "maybe".
16:24:04 < mmcgrath> err yes.  What you said :)
16:24:30 < warren> mmcgrath, I've been inquiring about more storage for Fedora, internal testing of 
                   coraid as a possible alternative to netapp was mentioned, but it didn't sound like a 
                   big priority.
16:24:35 < warren> stalled
16:24:39 < f13> mmcgrath: another thing that will help a lot is we need to purge the written out signed 
                versions of packages that aren't used anymore.
16:24:44 < dgilmore> so even if gc can clear up 1tb  we will be looking at ~2tb per year growth
16:24:52 < mmcgrath> f13: Can we get that implemented tonight?  I'm just in a horrible position A) not 
                     having backups and B) having no idea if we'll be able to build packages at the end 
                     of december.
16:25:07 < f13> mmcgrath: I'm pushing as hard as I can.
16:25:29 < mmcgrath> k
16:25:50 < mmcgrath> warren: yeah, I've been putting a spreadsheet together with costs / year / g that 
                     sort of thing.
16:25:56 < mmcgrath> we have options, but no cash.
16:25:59 < dgilmore> f13: i thought we were only going to store the signed header info  and generate the 
                     signed rpms on the fly
16:26:10 < f13> dgilmore: "on the fly" sortof.
16:26:19 < warren> It seems like a no brainer.  No backups of our entire package collection?
16:26:28 < warren> Just asking for trouble.
16:26:29 < f13> dgilmore: we write them out when we go to push an update or a release tree.  There is no 
                code that I know of to go back and remove the written out copy.
16:26:46 < mmcgrath> warren: yep, I put in a request about 2.5 months ago for money for a tape drive but 
                     haven't heard anything.
16:26:56 < warren> they make tapes that big? =)
16:27:01 < f13> enough tapes...
16:27:02 < mmcgrath> warren: its a robot.
16:27:11 < skvidal> warren: 24 tape changer 800GB per tape
16:27:15 < warren> wow
16:27:18 < dgilmore> f13: ok so that would be something someone could write.  perhaps keep the ones 
                     written in the last 6 weeks or so
16:27:22 < mmcgrath> its only a few grand.
16:27:23 < skvidal> some of the newer tapes do 1TB per tape (compressed)
16:27:45 < londo> I think it's 1.6 now for lto-4
16:27:50 < skvidal> f13: where should this code traverse.
16:27:56 < f13> dgilmore: if we can, we probably want to keep the written out ones that we actually 
                shipped somewhere, but we can purge the ones that are obsolete.
16:28:05 < skvidal> londo: ah, thank you
16:28:11 < skvidal> londo: I didn't know of the latest ones
16:28:19 < f13> skvidal: its... complicated.  I hate talking about this kind of thing over IRC.
16:28:39 < mmcgrath> :: cough cough :: asterisk :)
16:28:42 < skvidal> f13: I was just offering to help. I can write a bunch of things to run across 
16:28:50 < f13> basically some huristics need to be followed about if there is a package written out 
                with a "better" key, and the one with the "worse" key isn't in any active repos
16:28:54 < skvidal> f13: I'm more than glad to get on the asterisk or phone
16:29:08 < f13> skvidal: I really appreciate it, and I may call you on that.  But not today.
16:29:08 < mmcgrath> f13: Do we have an ETA on when we can look at the cacti graph and go :: whew :: or 
                     :: holy crap we need to buy storage now ::
16:29:21 < skvidal> f13: I'm all ears
16:29:28 < f13> mmcgrath: potentially we could have the first purge of the trash can by next Friday
16:29:28 < skvidal> f13: well, not really, just the two, actually
16:29:31 < mmcgrath> I know it doesn't happen all at once.
16:29:35 < mmcgrath> k.
16:29:41 < f13> or sooner if we want to do it sooner, which we may
16:29:49 < f13> I have to go through and sign all the F8 packages with the gold key.
16:29:54 < f13> that's going to hurt.  Big time.
16:30:07 < mmcgrath> I'm all for doing it last month :)  So whenever you guys are ready I say have at it.
16:30:13 < mmcgrath> Ok, anyone have anything else to discuss on that?
16:30:44 < f13> mmcgrath: the scary thing is we don't have backup, so if we purge something we really 
                shoudln't have....
16:31:01 < mmcgrath> f13: have you heard anything on the tape drive?  Whats the latest?
16:31:06 < f13> stage 1 is move them to a trash collection and give a reasonable timeout for somebody to 
                recover it from the trash.
16:31:07 < mmcgrath> jeremy: ping?
16:31:08 < londo> if money is an issue why not put a page up for donations?
16:31:11 < f13> mmcgrath: I have heard nothing.
16:31:26 < f13> money really shoudln't be an issue, I'm extremely depressed that it seems to be.
16:31:36 < dgilmore> does anyone have 3tb free somewhere we could rsync to?
16:31:56 < londo> I can probably find 3tb free if it's not for too long
16:31:57 < f13> ibiblio?
16:32:03 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: out of the PHX colo my estimates say it takes about 10-15 days / 2T
16:32:46 < f13> and during that time everything else gets slower :/
16:32:51 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: good point it would take time
16:33:18 < mmcgrath> Ok, this is something we'll continue to look at.  I'm all ears from anyone that 
                     carse to look into it for both tape space and drive space.
16:33:20 -!- jeremy [i=katzj at freenode/unconfirmed/jeremy] has quit Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
16:33:30 < mmcgrath> I'll try to post my spreadsheet soon with comparisons and such.
16:33:32 -!- epithumia is now known as tibbs|h
16:33:36 < mmcgrath> Anyone have anythign else before we move on?
16:33:46 -!- EvilBob [n=bob at fedora/pdpc.sustaining.BobJensen] has quit Success
16:34:44 < mmcgrath> k, moving on :)
16:34:49 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Schedule
16:35:03 < mmcgrath>
16:35:18 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Sponsorship
16:35:48 < mmcgrath> I'm proud to announce that we have a new potential sponsor.  I haven't gotten all 
                     of the technical details but peer1 is looking to donate a new torrent box, two 
                     hosted boxes (one as a live backup of the other)
16:35:58 -!- giarc_w [i=hidden-u at] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:36:04 < mmcgrath> and two collaboration boxes.
16:36:07 < jima> oh, wow. congrats!
16:36:14 < jima> (brb)
16:36:22 -!- EvilBob [n=bob at fedora/pdpc.sustaining.BobJensen] has joined #Fedora-Meeting
16:36:33 < mmcgrath> we'll be able to throw the throttle way up on the torrent boxes for releases.  and 
                     these will also serve as additional points for proxy servers during release time.
16:36:50 < ricky> Nice,
16:36:53 < mmcgrath> We'll have to put their logo on some of those serrvices that they are hosting but 
                     this is a great donation.
16:37:00 < abadger1999> Excellent
16:37:01 < mmcgrath> Anyone have questions about it?  I don't have an ETA yet.
16:37:20 < skvidal> no, it's just quite happy to hear
16:37:29 < mmcgrath> indeed.
16:37:42 < skvidal> we're not planning on using it pre f8, right?
16:37:47 < mmcgrath> Also AFAIK, the german server has been ordered but I haven't heard a delivery date.
16:37:49 < skvidal> only for mid-f8 and f9, I assume
16:38:03 < mmcgrath> skvidal: nope, I don't think we'll make the infrastructure freeze with a 
                     comfortable amount of time.
16:38:17 < skvidal> that's what I figured
16:38:18 < skvidal> thanks
16:38:33  * mmcgrath notes
16:38:36 < mmcgrath> .ticket 101
16:38:38 < mmcgrathbot> mmcgrath: #101 (Fedora Infrastructure Change Freeze) - Fedora Infrastructure - 
16:38:56 < mmcgrath> Ok, anyone have any questions about sponsorship?
16:39:23 < skvidal> if microsoft gives us lots of disk space do we have to advertise for them?
16:39:36 < mmcgrath> skvidal: if they want us to.
16:39:41 < skvidal> has anyone asked canonical about this? I've heard mark is made of money :)
16:39:46 < ricky> Heheh.
16:39:50 < notting> we could always refuse the sponsorship
16:40:01 < skvidal> notting: yah, I know - it was just fun to say
16:40:02  * dgilmore has no questions
16:40:12 < notting> i'm sure we could find some large fedora users that peddle in large amounts of 
                    bandwidth and content. maybe they'd like to advertise
16:40:23 < mmcgrath> skvidal: I'd just be worried about canonical being here next year... After all it 
                     must be expensive to donate an entire company month after month with no return.
16:40:48 < skvidal> mmcgrath: indeed
16:40:52 < mmcgrath> Ok, I'll move on.
16:41:05 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Architectural 
16:41:06 < jima> re: logo, boo hoo :)
16:41:09 < mmcgrath> Nothing new there.
16:41:26 < mmcgrath> actually nothing new on any of the schedules page which means.... Open Floor!
16:41:30 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Open Floor
16:41:32  * skvidal raises his hand
16:41:34 < skvidal> oo oo
16:41:34 < mmcgrath> skvidal: I believe you had something?
16:41:35 < skvidal> call on me
16:41:37 < skvidal> yah
16:41:51 < skvidal> so a few of us have been working on what is mostly an administrative communication 
16:42:02 < skvidal> it's called func:
16:42:17  * jima looks
16:42:24 < skvidal> func is mostly just a protocol and api for communicating b/t hosts using ssl certs 
                    for 2-way auth
16:42:31 < jima> funky.
16:42:35 < dgilmore> skvidal: /me looked at that the other week very neat
16:42:35 < skvidal> we'll be making a new release soon
16:42:56 < skvidal> and when we do I'd like to start setting it up on some of the fedoraproject servers
16:42:59 < ivazquez> Looks like fin and func should start talking :P
16:43:13 < skvidal> ivazquez: I don't know what 'fin' is
16:43:26 < mmcgrath> skvidal: its how french movies end.
16:43:38 < skvidal> mmcgrath: and snooty english ones
16:43:44 < ivazquez>
16:44:15 < ivazquez> The details can wait though.
16:44:32 < mmcgrath> skvidal: so I'll say +1 to func on the boxes.  But I'd like  plan written up and 
                     sent to the list on what you're trying to do and how you plan on implementing it.
16:44:35 < mmcgrath> sound reasonable?
16:44:49 < skvidal> yah
16:44:51 < skvidal> totally
16:45:04 < skvidal> I'm mostly thinking about making a lot of specific things simpler for us
16:45:11 < mmcgrath> What can I say, we're early adopters.
16:45:13 < skvidal> right now we don't auto-update machines for a variety of reasons
16:45:19 < dgilmore> skvidal: like restarting kojid on all builders?
16:45:26 < skvidal> dgilmore: for example
16:45:27 < skvidal> or for saying
16:45:49 < notting> skvidal: so, when do we get a funkmaster.fp.o cnam?
16:45:49 < skvidal>  "please yum update on all of the boxes right now"
16:45:58 < jima> notting: ip? ;)
16:46:05 < skvidal> notting: trust me, we've heard no shortage of func jokes
16:46:12 < ricky> Hehe.
16:46:13 < jima> err, rather, hostname?
16:47:10 < skvidal> anyway - if anyone wants to poke at me about it, I'm alll ears
16:47:10 < dgilmore> jima: i think he meant cname
16:47:19 < skvidal> I'll work on a description of what I want to install and where
16:47:31 < mmcgrath> skvidal: we'll look forward to the introduction plan on the list :)
16:47:37 < skvidal> the long and short is, I think. puppet will be the 'overlord' and the ret of the 
                    machines will be minions
16:47:37 < dgilmore> skvidal: it looks funkalicous
16:47:38 < mmcgrath> I thnk others on that list will be interested to hear it as well.
16:47:44 < skvidal> okay
16:48:01 < mmcgrath> skvidal: mind if we move on?
16:48:06 < skvidal> not at all
16:48:06 < skvidal> go
16:48:09 < skvidal> thanks
16:48:10 < mmcgrath> hurray func :)
16:48:24 < mmcgrath> FYI everyone, smolt has had an upgrade.  There's a wiki and ratings system, check 
                     them out.
16:48:28 < jima> dgilmore: yes, i was basically alluding to "whenever someone asks for it"
16:48:29 < mmcgrath> thats all I've got :)
16:48:35 < warren> cool
16:48:36 < mmcgrath> Anyone have anything else to discuss?
16:48:37 < skvidal> yay smolt
16:48:42 < skvidal> mmcgrath: wiki migration?
16:49:04 < mmcgrath> I'll personally pay someone 100 dollars to convert our wiki to mediawiki.  Thats 
                     the bounty.
16:49:08 < abadger1999> Do you guys want me to spend some time hacking the save problem?
16:49:16 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: ill chip in 50
16:49:16 < mmcgrath> It'll be worth it to me to sleep better in just that first week.
16:49:48 < mmcgrath> abadger1999: If you're serious about it yes.  I can give you a prioritized list of 
                     work we need done.
16:49:53 < abadger1999> I can put something together to fix that quickly  but I don't know if it will be 
16:50:02 < abadger1999> :-(
16:50:30  * mmcgrath would rather it be upstreamable.
16:50:41  * skvidal would rather it holds us over for f8 release
16:50:46 -!- viking-ice [n=johannbg at] has quit Remote closed the connection
16:50:50 < skvidal> and we give up
16:50:57 < skvidal> and walk away
16:51:01 < skvidal> I love python, I loathe php
16:51:07 < abadger1999> that's what's kept me from implementing anything.  Lack of knowledge of where 
                        upstream is going.
16:51:18 < skvidal> but maybe we need to just walk away
16:51:20 < mmcgrath> skvidal: At this point I'd just assume move moin to /wiki2/ and have people copy 
                     important pages over manually.
16:51:38 < skvidal> mmcgrath: will play hell with google juice
16:51:40 < mmcgrath> abadger1999: I don't think they're going anywhere anytime soon.
16:51:41 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: that could be an option
16:51:48 < ricky> Or better yet, move over to static HTML pages :)
16:52:02 < skvidal> ricky: +1
16:52:03 < mmcgrath> oh ricky, ohhhh ricky.
16:52:04 < dgilmore> a database backend would probably help alot
16:52:20  * notting doesn't see how having to manually move wiki content is going to help
16:52:22 < mmcgrath> ricky: as we migrate official content off the wiki, perhaps the wiki will become 
                     easier :)
16:52:24 < skvidal> mmcgrath: I think he means move moin to static pages
16:52:33 < mmcgrath> notting: it won't be on moin anymore.
16:52:33 < jima> mmcgrath: ?
16:52:39 < skvidal> and setup the new wiki in /wiki/
16:53:09 < mmcgrath> jima: I'd seen that, I couldn't get ti to work and it didn't seem to keep history 
                     or usernames.
16:53:12 < ivazquez> The nasty part is the user DB, isn't it?
16:53:26 < mmcgrath> jima: if you want to take a closer look by all means do it :)
16:53:27 < notting> mmcgrath: no, but the moving of stuff == Great Pain
16:53:27 < skvidal> ivazquez: honestly we need to dump the user db for fas-integration anyway
16:53:31 < mmcgrath> ivazquez: one of the nsaty stuff.
16:53:35 < jima> mmcgrath: drats. i hadn't looked.
16:53:42 < skvidal> notting: staying where we are == great pain, too :)
16:53:45 < mmcgrath> notting: the problem is I think we're only a couple of months away from people 
                     being unable to create content on the wiki.
16:53:52 < ricky> ivazquez: As I said before, if FAS2 is ready by then, OpenID auth :)
16:53:53 < jima> fas integration would be great.
16:53:59 < ivazquez> Do we have a list of problems somewhere?
16:54:01 < jima> ricky: oh, good point.
16:54:14 < mmcgrath> ivazquez: just on the list, I'll create a page after the meeting.
16:54:24 < dgilmore> ivazquez: its been talked about on the list alot
16:54:29 < ivazquez> Excellent.
16:54:49 < ivazquez> Well, let's get it into a single place so we can stop talking about it and deal 
                     with it already.
16:54:49 < mmcgrath> Ok, anyone have anything else?
16:55:04 < mmcgrath> notting: plus moving content will have the added beneift of pruning all the useless 
                     crap that has made its way onto the wiki :)
16:55:08 < notting> mmcgrath: right, but having to manually move stuff is man-weeks of work
16:55:23  * mmcgrath knows this.
16:55:28 < dgilmore> notting: probably man-years
16:55:34 < ivazquez> Migrating moin to a DB would probably be the least work.
16:55:37 < mmcgrath> the problem is we're really very close to our last resort (which is that)
16:55:49 < dgilmore> i think its well known we have the largest moin install
16:55:51 < ivazquez> Someone just has to *do* that work.
16:55:59 < skvidal> ivazquez, abadger1999:
16:56:06 < skvidal> if we didn't care about upstream
16:56:09 < mmcgrath> Ok, if no one has any more topics I'll close the meeting in 30.
16:56:11 < notting> have we threatened to publically shame the moin developers?
16:56:11 < skvidal> do either of you think the above is possible?
16:56:20 < mmcgrath> notting: not my style :)
16:56:23 < skvidal> to swap out the backend of moin to a db?
16:56:24 < ivazquez> Moving to a DB? Absolutely.
16:56:26 < dgilmore> ivazquez: we have said that many times and no one has stepped up to do the work.
16:56:27 < abadger1999> skvidal: Yes
16:56:31 < mmcgrath> the dev's are ok, just slow and its no longer the right tool for us in its current 
16:56:32 < skvidal> ivazquez: how long would it take?
16:56:40 < dgilmore> some wiki any wiki with moin formating would be ideal
16:56:56 < ivazquez> I'd have to research moin's backend a bit more before giving an estimate.
16:57:11 < ivazquez> Off the top of my head, a couple of months max.
16:57:24 < notting> i'm sure someone will suggest backending it on git
16:57:30 < skvidal> ivazquez: b/c at this point if it doesn't work and we are the largest consumer then 
                    I'm absolutely okay with saying 'we have to fork for our own sanity, we are more 
                    than happy to merge back into upstream but we cannot wait'
16:57:46 < abadger1999> notting: My only requirement is someone rewrites git in python first ;-)
16:57:56 < notting> well *that's* not gonna happen
16:58:02 < skvidal> this is not a statement that what is being done with moin is bad, it just means we 
                    can't wait for it
16:58:42 < skvidal> I don't see how there are a lot of options, really
16:58:49 < skvidal> mmcgrath: what do you think? crack rock?
16:59:26 -!- notting [i=notting at redhat/notting] has quit "Ex-Chat"
16:59:35  * mmcgrath would rather convert by hand then maintain a fork butis open to ideas.
16:59:46 < mmcgrath> I'll get that page written up now and send it to the list.  We can talk more about 
                     it then.
16:59:54 < mmcgrath> we should close the meeting, almost out of time :)
17:00:00 < dgilmore> :)
17:00:02 < mmcgrath> anyone have anything?  If not close in 30
17:00:03 < ivazquez> I'm sure it can be merged with upstream. But one step at a time.
17:00:09 < abadger1999> mmcgrath: Could you drop a backup of moin onto publictest10?
17:01:03 < warren> mmcgrath, one thing... now that we have a ton of RAM, could we see how much faster
                   moin goes with ramdisk storage backend?  If it helps, it might give us a little
                   breathing room for a permanent solution to be figured out.
17:01:09 < warren> mmcgrath, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to try.
17:01:59 < mmcgrath> warren: maybe, most of our ram is already taken though, we'll have to come up with
                     a plan for it.
17:02:04 < warren> OK
17:02:10 < mmcgrath> Ok, I'm going to close the meeting, we can continue in #fedora-admin.
17:02:19 < mmcgrath> warren: I am curious to see what happens though if nothing else :)
17:02:19  * ivazquez must go, and will poke at the list when it pops up
17:02:23 < mmcgrath> it'll be a fun experiment.
17:02:26 < mmcgrath> ivazquez: later
17:02:31 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Meeting End
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