Meeting Log - 2008-01-31

Ricky Zhou ricky at
Fri Feb 1 00:34:54 UTC 2008

15:22 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Role call (late)
15:22 < mmcgrath> who's here?
15:22  * ricky 
15:23 < ricky> ivazquez: I think it was supposed to be ~20 minutes ago.
15:23 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: i think we got messed up when DST ended
15:23 < mmcgrath> yeah
15:23 < dgilmore> we did not change with DST  but used the same ust offset
15:24  * ricky will probably be unable to make meetings after a month or so, unfortunately. 
15:24 < jcollie> heh need to add an alarm clock to zodbot
15:24 < ricky> Speaking of time...  when were we going to change all time zones to UTC?
15:24 < mmcgrath> ricky: yeah we were.
15:25 < mmcgrath> ricky: its on our topic list sso lets get started
15:25 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Tickets
15:25 < mmcgrath> .tiny
15:25 < zodbot> mmcgrath:
15:25 < paulobanon_> pong
15:25  * paulobanon_ thanks ivazquez
15:25 < mmcgrath> so first ticket
15:26 < mmcgrath> .ticket 347
15:26 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #347 (Set localtime on all our servers to UTC) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
15:26 < mmcgrath> I think the only main questions about this are 1) notifying everyone that the change is going to happen 2) making sure none of our apps break and 3) doing the implementation.
15:27 < mmcgrath> I've given some thought to 2 and while it might look a little odd for people going back and looking through things (like when something was built, or cacti graphs) that time might just disappear.
15:27 < paulobanon_> i think its a good thing to have
15:27 -!- glezos [n=glezos at fedora/glezos] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:27 < mmcgrath> yeah I don't think anyone is against it (if they are speak now!)
15:28 < mmcgrath> Anyone particularly interested in owning this task?  I've got a backlog of stuff I've been working on.
15:28 < dgilmore> i can own it if noone else wants to
15:28 < mmcgrath> well, either way its a ticket so it'll get worked on sooner or later.
15:28 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: I say if no one claims it by tomorrow, go ahead and take it.
15:28 < mmcgrath> anyone else have any questions on that?
15:28 < dgilmore> everyone has been for the change
15:29 < ricky> It does require a reboot/downtime, right?
15:29 < mmcgrath> yeah, just a matter of doing it.
15:29 < mmcgrath> ricky: AFAIK, yes.
15:29 < dgilmore> ricky: at minimum service restarts
15:29 < mmcgrath> at least thats the safe way to do it.
15:29 < dgilmore> easier to reboot
15:29 < ricky> Ah, OK.
15:30 < mmcgrath> Alrighty, anyone have anything else on that?
15:30 < mmcgrath> .ticket 365
15:30 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #365 (mailman setup (project/hosted)) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
15:30 < mmcgrath> So we now have the collab servers up and can, in theory, run our own mailman instances.  We will be doing this for fedorahosted.
15:30 < mmcgrath> the question is how to proceed with the fedoraproject.
15:30 < mmcgrath> jcollie: ping
15:30 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: ping
15:31 < jcollie> hello!!!
15:31 < mmcgrath> jcollie: yo
15:31 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: should could we run all of fedora's mailing lists
15:31 < ricky> I don't think we've really had many problems with Red Hat's mailman, so at the very least, there's no need to rush over at once.
15:31 < mmcgrath> so right now jcollie is point man on implementation and getting mailman actually installed.  dgilmore has recently be charged by the board to figure out what our mail system should do.
15:31 < jcollie> i think that the main issue with fedoraproject is how to get mail from bastion over to collab1
15:32 < mmcgrath> ricky: thats been my primary push against hosting it ourselves though now we have the space to do it.
15:32  * jcollie thinks we should use exim :)
15:32  * dgilmore slaps jcollie 
15:32 < mmcgrath> heheh
15:32 < dgilmore> :)
15:32 < mmcgrath> so there are two options here as I see them.
15:32 < mmcgrath> 1) *-list at and
15:33 < mmcgrath> upon thinking about it, from the user side I'd prefer *-list at and from the infrastructure team side I'd prefer
15:33 < mmcgrath> anyone have opinions on it?
15:33 < dgilmore> ricky: one thing id like to do is have a fedora themed interface for Red Hats mailman  that could be accessed via or  or something like that
15:33 < ricky> I'm leaning towards too.  It'll be annoying to have to blacklist a ton of mailing list names in FAS.
15:34 < dgilmore> ricky: i agree
15:34 < mmcgrath> jcollie: what are your thoughts on it?
15:34 < ivazquez> It'll be far simpler to use @lists.
15:34 < dgilmore> i like simple
15:34 < ricky> dgilmore: Ah, good point.  Currently, the admin interfaces for lists allow some (probably limited) control over templates, but it'll definitely be easier with our own setup.
15:34 < paulobanon_> +1
15:34 < jcollie> i like *-lists at i don't think it's that hard to implement
15:35 < dgilmore> ricky: and id like to alias each list on with a address
15:35 < EvilBob> will this break users filters?
15:35 < mmcgrath> EvilBob: almost certainly.
15:35 < jcollie> if we go with we should probably make that the admin interface rather than admin.fp.o/mailman
15:36 < mmcgrath> jcollie: ssl / ip restriction issues.
15:37 < mmcgrath> We're just tight on ssl certs and ip's and its so much easier to just use whats there.  Afterall, you've already got admin.fp.o/mailman setup :)
15:37 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: :) agreed
15:37 < mmcgrath> and we can have a non-ssl lists.fp.o site for the archives if we wanted instead of
15:37 < jcollie> well, i guess i don't have super strong feelings either way... sending mail to would be super simple
15:38 < dgilmore> i think admin.fp.o is a well known admin area
15:38 < mmcgrath> k
15:38 < mmcgrath> jcollie: and as for, we've not really talked directly about that but is it something you'd be interested in doing as well?
15:38 < dgilmore> so the question comes down.  do we want to manage all lists?
15:38 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: do you mean as in admin each list, or host them?
15:38 -!- MrBawb [i=abob at] has joined #fedora-meeting
15:39 < paulobanon_> dgilmore: what's the board position on that ?
15:39 < jcollie> yeah the puppet configs i've been working on should make it a snap to do it for fedorahosted... you'll need to run it on a different host than collab1 though
15:39 < dgilmore> or do we want to have some way to manage hosted lists ourselves and have our own frontend to the mailmain instance provided by Red Hat
15:39 < ricky> Aw, so there'd have to be two separate setups?
15:39 < dgilmore> paulobanon_: boards take is what do the users want/ and is simple for them
15:40 < jcollie> ricky: yeah... virtual hosting in mailman is possible but a lot more tricky
15:40 < mmcgrath> jcollie: <nod> we'll be runing them on the hsoted box.
15:41 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: whats your prefered way with the fedoraproject mail?
15:41 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: im kinda leaning towards keeping them on the RH side just because its less work
15:41 < paulobanon_> i dont have a personal feeling either way, but we should consider the administration costs vs the benefits :)
15:42 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: should we have jcollie focus on fedorahosted for now?
15:42 < dgilmore> but having some fedora frontends for it
15:42 < jcollie> i'd say any new fedora related lists we run on collab1 but keep the existing ones @redhat
15:42 < paulobanon_> dgilmore: aka fedora look n'feel :)
15:42 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: probably  unless he wants to setup for all and we work a migration plan away from
15:42 < dgilmore> paulobanon_: yeah
15:43 < ricky> Personally, I kind of like having the same interface on all mailman instances that I use. 
15:43 < mmcgrath> jcollie: so from here on, what would it take to get a mailing list setup for the people?
15:44 < lmacken> ugh.. mailman
15:44 < jcollie> well, i've got to get the puppet configs finished, then it's a matter of applying them to the fedorahosted box
15:45 < jcollie> new lists can be created by editing the puppet configs so pretty easy to admin
15:45 < abadger1999> jcollie: I like one-stop-shopping though.  So having fedora-infrastructure on and fedora-devel-ng on seems like a drawback.
15:45 < mmcgrath> jcollie: ahh, thats one thing I wanted to talk to you about.
15:45 < abadger1999> (Refering to all new lists on collab1)
15:45 < mmcgrath> So as it stands, none of the fedorahosted projects are in puppet, we have them all under /srv on fedorahosted and we run a script to create them.
15:45 < ricky> Cool - I always assumed that they were created by a script. 
15:46 < jcollie> abadger1999: yeah, but you're gonna break bazillions of people mail filters by moving the lists
15:46 < mmcgrath> jcollie: and thats the real dilema, whats the benefit of the move?
15:46  * nirik notes we could look at the mailing list reorg at the same time as moving them.... 
15:46 < ricky> I don't see huge benefits in moving - right now, the big thing is that we're gaining the ability to create lists quickly, right?
15:47 < jcollie> 1) it's run on the fedora infrastructure 2) we can give the front ends the fedora look'n'feel
15:47 < lmacken> it may also be a good opportunity to look into toshio's notification server ideas
15:47 < lmacken> .ticket 151
15:47 < zodbot> lmacken: #151 (Explore idea of a notification server) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
15:47 < notting> can we do #2 without actually moving things?
15:47 < mmcgrath> number 2) might be able to be done without moving things.
15:47 < jcollie> yeah, we can create new lists as quickly as you can edit the puppet configs
15:47 < mmcgrath> notting: dgilmore is working on that.  or looking into it.
15:47 < EvilBob> Is having "quick lists" a real long term bene however? then we end up with less thought going in to lists and a bunch of poorly planned dead lists
15:48 < mmcgrath> jcollie: I don't know that we want to do that in puppet though, we might just want to script it on hosted like we do with the rest of the hosted projects.
15:48 < mmcgrath> its kind of an odd "content vs config" mix on fedorahosted.
15:49 < EvilBob> icanhascheezymailinglist?
15:49 < mmcgrath> jcollie: here's how we currently create hosted projects (it could use some work) -
15:49 < jcollie> yeah, it is a little bit wierd because you can only affect the initial setup of the lists... any other config changes have to be done through the normal mm methods
15:49 < dgilmore> notting: im trying to find out what it would take to give the lists a fedora look and feel without breaking anything
15:49 < mmcgrath> jcollie: we can chat about that after the meeting whats the best way to create / maintain the lists.
15:50 < jcollie> mmcgrath: i'm good either way...
15:50 < mmcgrath> jcollie: excellent.  So for now I think the path of least resistance (and way to prove that it'll be easy for us) is to get mailman setup in fedorahosted.
15:50 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: will you continue to look into this branded issue / non-issue?
15:51 < jcollie> yeah that'll be pretty easy
15:51 < mmcgrath> jcollie: in that case I have... YET ANOTHER group for you to join :)  sysadmin-hosted
15:51 -!- stickster_afk is now known as stickster_work
15:51 < jcollie> heh heh
15:51 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: yep i will
15:52 < mmcgrath> solid, so for now I'll leave this on the meeting.  It seems to be a pretty hot topic at times, might as well continue talking about it.
15:52 < mmcgrath> anyone have anything else on that?  if not we'll move on (we started alte so we don't have much time left)
15:52 < jcollie> i think that we should set some standard for fh.o list names
15:53 < mmcgrath> <nod>  I'll add that to the ticket.
15:53 < jcollie> i propose <project>-<something>-list (-<something>) could be omitted
15:53 < mmcgrath> right now we don't really have anything like that.
15:53 < mmcgrath> just a reminder for those interested in followign the ticket, add yourselves to the cc
15:54 < mmcgrath> .ticket 365
15:54 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #365 (mailman setup (project/hosted)) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
15:54 < mmcgrath> ok, next ticket
15:54 < mmcgrath> .ticket 270
15:54 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #270 (Fedora Wiki allows editing raw HTML) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
15:54 < mmcgrath> ricky: ^^^ d00d
15:54 < mmcgrath> paulobanon_: ^^
15:54 < mmcgrath> we're just waiting on the 1.6 moin epel instance?
15:54 < mmcgrath> paulobanon_: are you blocking on me for something there?
15:54 < paulobanon_> pending on
15:54 < paulobanon_> .ticket 363
15:54 < zodbot> paulobanon_: #363 ( - Moin upgrade) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
15:54 < paulobanon_> :)
15:54 < mmcgrath> k, did moin 1.6 make it into epel yet or was that waiting on me to build it?
15:54 < ricky> Getting somewhat pressed for time too, unfortunately :(
15:55 < paulobanon_> so mmcgrath since i dont have any koji access if you could throw a build it would be nice
15:55 < mmcgrath> ricky: thats ok, thanks for letting us know, I'll make sure to not pile so much stuff on ya :)
15:55 < paulobanon_> thias only commited his stuff to devel
15:56 < paulobanon_> we are allowed to co-maintain the package if we want, so its not pending on anyone anymore besides us
15:56 < mmcgrath> paulobanon_: would you mind rebuilding the srpm for EL-5 and giving it a quick test?  If not no worries I'll do it before I rebuild it'll just take me a bit.
15:56 < paulobanon_> mmcgrath: ill try to fit that tomorrow on my todo list
15:56 < mmcgrath> paulobanon_: excellent, I appreciate it.
15:56 < mmcgrath> Ok, last ticket.
15:56 < paulobanon_> ill rebuild it in CentOS5.1 ?!
15:57 < mmcgrath> .ticket 302
15:57 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #302 (Moin patches) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
15:57 < mmcgrath> paulobanon_: that'd work fine, you can even just rebuild it on publictest10
15:57 < mmcgrath> MrBawb: ping
15:57  * ricky didn't get a reply to the epydoc package yet either.
15:58 -!- petreu [n=peter at fedora/Standby] has quit "( :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: )"
15:58 < mmcgrath> MrBawb: ping?
15:58 < mmcgrath> we can come back to that, almost out of time.
15:58 < mmcgrath> thats the last of the tickets, I did have one SOP I added this week:
15:59 < mmcgrath>
15:59 < mmcgrath> how to make RPM's and sign for the infrastructure repo.
15:59 < mmcgrath> And thats really the last of the things that I've got
15:59 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Open Floor
16:00 < mmcgrath> Anyone have anything they'd like to discuss?
16:00 < ricky> I might have missed this in the past week or so, but any update on the xen1 problems?
16:00 < MrBawb> mmcgrath: oh, I'm here now
16:00 < mmcgrath> ricky: sorry, yes I closed the ticket, the old FC6 and the new RHEL5 kernel both fixed the problem.  Just waiting for RH to release the official RPM for RHEL.
16:01 < mmcgrath> MrBawb: anything new with ticket 302?
16:01 < MrBawb> work's been busy lately, so I haven't made any progress
16:01 < mmcgrath> no worries, thanks for the update.
16:01 < mmcgrath> alllrighty, and with that we're at the end of the meeting (Sorry for starting so late)
16:01 < abadger1999> Quick update: Vacuum policy for postgres dbs.  I'll be running a script to  accumulate some stats.
16:01 < ricky> mmcgrath: Aha, nice.
16:01 < abadger1999> Then create a cron job to vacuum tables.
16:02 < abadger1999> Should be in place next week.
16:02 < mmcgrath> abadger1999: excellent, it will be nice to be able to benchmark whats going on there.  One of the problems we had this last time was "that feels slow" but had no actual data to back up how it used to be.
16:02 < mmcgrath> If no one has anything else, I'll close the meeting in 30
16:02 < paulobanon_> mmcgrath: stickum, i'm trying to package it correctly, and i'll probably ask some stuff to our TG gurus (lmacken and abadger1999) :)
16:02 -!- giarc_w [i=hidden-u at] has quit "Leaving"
16:03 < mmcgrath> paulobanon_: thats excellent.
16:03 < mmcgrath> 15
16:03 < mmcgrath> 10
16:03 < ricky> Hm, did nirik have a package too?  
16:03 < mmcgrath> nirik: ping
16:03 < paulobanon_> ricky: its the same :)
16:03 < mmcgrath> ahh well then
16:03 < mmcgrath> nirik: unping
16:03 < paulobanon_> hehe
16:03 < ricky> paulobanon_: Aha - I've kind of lost track of things this week.
16:03 < mmcgrath> ok guys, thanks for coming
16:03 < nirik> I started working on one, but paulobanon_ wanted to, so I gave him what I had. ;)
16:03 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Meeting closed
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