Meeting Log - 2008-05-29

Ricky Zhou ricky at
Thu May 29 21:11:50 UTC 2008

16:10 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Who's here?
16:10  * ricky 
16:10  * ianweller 
16:10 -!- sharkcz [n=dan at] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:10 -!- MrBawb [i=abob at] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:10 -!- nim-nim [n=nim-nim at fedora/nim-nim] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:10 -!- notting [n=notting at redhat/notting] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:10 -!- sternecg [n=sternecg at] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:11 < mmcgrath> abadger1999: dgilmore f13 G lmacken paulobanon skvidal others I've forgotten: PING!
16:11  * abadger1999 stands on his dot and raises his hand
16:11  * f13 
16:12 < skvidal> hi
16:12  * MrBawb 
16:12 < mmcgrath> starting a little late today :)
16:12 < skvidal> slacker
16:12  * ianweller , again
16:12 < mmcgrath> jcollie: you around
16:12 < jcollie> yo
16:12 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Tickets
16:12 < mmcgrath> .tiny
16:12 < zodbot> mmcgrath:
16:12 < mmcgrath> .tickety 395
16:12 < mmcgrath> .ticket 395
16:12 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #395 (Audio Streaming of Fedora Board Conference Calls) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
16:13  * dgilmore is here
16:13 < mmcgrath> jcollie: dgilmore: so sometime in the next week or two I'm going to start getting the asterisk install in better shape for all of that and build an asterisk2 box, etc.
16:13 < jcollie> cool
16:13 < mmcgrath> jcollie: I'm assuming no progress on the audio streaming for now?
16:13 < jcollie> nope
16:13 < mmcgrath> Since mediawiki is now deployed after next week asterisk is my next major project.
16:14 < ricky> Cool :-)
16:14 < mmcgrath> specifically fas integration and deployment.
16:14 < dgilmore> :)
16:14 < mmcgrath> .ticket 398
16:14 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #398 (elfutils `monotone' (mtn) error) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
16:14 -!- rmcgrath [n=roland at] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:14 -!- daMaestro [n=jon at fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:14 < rmcgrath> mmcgrath: hii
16:14 < mmcgrath> rmcgrath: howdy, any word on -
16:14 < mmcgrath> ?
16:15 -!- ldimaggi_ [n=ldimaggi at nat/redhat-us/x-2ef0128bbf8b70fd] has quit "Leaving"
16:15 < rmcgrath> mmcgrath: sorry, no progress (real work keeps taking priority, silly me)
16:15 < mmcgrath> no worries, we'll skip it for now
16:15 < rmcgrath> otay
16:15 -!- rmcgrath [n=roland at] has left #fedora-meeting []
16:15 < mmcgrath> .ticket 446
16:15 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #446 (Possibility to add external links on spins page) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
16:15 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: anything?
16:16 -!- fab [n=bellet at] has quit "Leaving"
16:17 < dgilmore> no i still suck
16:17 < mmcgrath> k
16:17 < mmcgrath> .ticket 547
16:17 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #547 (Koji DB Server as postgres 8.3) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
16:18 < mmcgrath> This one's on hold until we get db3 installed which, btw brings me to my next topic.
16:18 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Hardware Installs
16:18 < mmcgrath> So next week I'll be in PHX, all week.
16:18 < dgilmore> :)
16:18 < mmcgrath> installing, IIRC, around 16 new servers.
16:18 < ricky> Woah.
16:18 < mmcgrath> it'll be a variation of blades and normal rack mounts.
16:18 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: ill be able to install the new builders
16:19 < jcollie> yowza
16:19  * f13 is quite excited.
16:19 < f13> mmcgrath: we should talk about the breakdown of blades.
16:19 < dgilmore> f13: as am i
16:19 < mmcgrath> but I'll likely be busy doing that all week so if you need something... ping someone else :)
16:19 < mmcgrath> f13: as in x86_64 vs ppc?
16:19 < f13> that and what duties they'll be put under
16:19 < dgilmore> f13: all builders
16:19 < f13> and what we'll do with the existing builders.
16:20 < dgilmore> f13: existing will remain
16:20 < dgilmore> though we could get rid of hammer2 xenbuilder1  and ppc1
16:20 < f13> I'd like to have a PPC system for doing community logins with mock
16:20 < dgilmore> they are the 3 oldest builders
16:20 < f13> that continues to run RHEL5 to match the actual buildsystem.
16:21 < mmcgrath> So my plan was to have those old builders stay there until 1) they die or 2) we need the space.
16:21 < f13> with PHX2 now online, how much space do we currently have?
16:21 < mmcgrath> f13: as of yet, we've not touch PHX2.
16:22 < mmcgrath> err touched it.
16:22 < f13> /we/ haven't, but hasn't some RH stuff moved over to PHX2 leaving us some space in PHX?
16:22 < dgilmore> f13: we only have space in PHX1
16:22 < dgilmore> f13: no idea
16:22 < mmcgrath> all of our space is allocated in PHX1 (actually Mesa)
16:22 < mmcgrath> f13: technically we always had space, just no power.
16:22 < f13> I thought that was what led to us being able to deploy the blade center
16:22 < f13> ah.
16:22 < mmcgrath> welll.  no power _and_ space was tighet.
16:22 < f13> well, what is our upper limit now?
16:22 < mmcgrath> but they found it somewhere
16:22  * mmcgrath cannot type today
16:23 < mmcgrath> we basically have two full racks now.
16:23 < mmcgrath> minus some space they leave reserved for administrative stuff (bottom 6 U and the top 2 or 3 U)
16:24 < mmcgrath> and I lied, it looks like I'll be installing 19 servers.  I think as far as builders go we're getting 8 x86_64 boxes and 6 PPC
16:24 < f13> so if I came to you in 3~ months time and said we want to deploy an automated testing lab of a number of machines, would we be able to do that?
16:24 < mmcgrath> depends on how much time and what type of machines they are.
16:24 < ricky> How will having all of these new builders affect NFS?
16:24 < mmcgrath> f13: if thats the plan please let me know because come Q4, both racks will be filled already.
16:24 < mmcgrath> ricky: not sure, we have the ability to cache some of that though now.
16:25 < mmcgrath> I've been trying to get a good baseline and, for example.
16:25 < mmcgrath> .buildload
16:25 < zodbot> mmcgrath: Load: 1.9 Total: 36.0 Use: 5.3% (Very Light Load)
16:25 < f13> mmcgrath: I haven't found a source for the hardware yet, but it would likely be x86(_64) and rackable.
16:25 < f13> 1us, 2us
16:25 < mmcgrath> ^^^^ thats pretty typical.
16:25 < f13> mmcgrath: we have software being developed to do automated testing, I just don't know how soon we'd be to the point of deployment
16:25 < mmcgrath> f13: ping me after the meeting....  If this is beyond the early planing stage I really should have known already because all the space in PHX (including new space) is spoken for.
16:25 < f13> mmcgrath: I wouldn't say beyond.
16:26 < f13> just that Q4 is a loooong time away
16:26 < mmcgrath> Q4 is yeah, but unless your lab is going ot go in during Q2 and be removed during Q3, then my Q4 plans are messed up.
16:27 < mmcgrath> Also going in next week are 5 other servers.
16:27 < mmcgrath> one dedicated to replace DB1, one of them is going to replace lockbox, one is the new db3 and the other two are application servers.
16:27 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: whats the plans for cvs-int
16:28 < mmcgrath> cvs-int (the host) needs to be rebuilt.  but the box is fairly new.
16:28 < ricky> Cool
16:28 < mmcgrath> remember we had a horrible crash about a year or so ago?
16:28 < dgilmore> :)  ok
16:28 < dgilmore> yeah  disk array went bad
16:28 < mmcgrath> IIRC we did some drive swapping or some dd action or something.  I can't remember.
16:28 < mmcgrath> but yeah, we need to rebuild cvs-int.  I might work on that this week actually.
16:28 < ricky> Hah.
16:29 < dgilmore> we had scsi back plane go bad along with 2 disks
16:29 < mmcgrath> then we need to get the lookaside off of there.
16:29 < dgilmore> :)
16:29 < mmcgrath> Anyone have any questions about next week?
16:30 < mmcgrath> alllrighty
16:30 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Mediawiki
16:30 < f13> not that shouldn't be held off until after the meeting
16:30  * ianweller is gone next week. so hit me with all your mediawiki problems today and tomorrow :)
16:30 < mmcgrath> :)
16:30 < mmcgrath> So yeah, we deployed a new wiki this week!
16:30 < mmcgrath> few problems aside its been mostly painless and according to plan.
16:30 < dgilmore> :)
16:31 < f13> fantastic job all around
16:31 < ianweller> and it looks a lot better too ;)
16:31 < mmcgrath> I'm hoping that after the next week or so all remaining kinks will have been worked out and people will have long forgotten Moin ever existed.
16:31 < dgilmore> i miss my moin syntax :)
16:31 < mmcgrath> There's already been some requests for plugins/extensions to be added.
16:31 < ianweller> no you don't
16:31 < mmcgrath> Which is nice because... THAT DIDN'T EXIST IN MOIN :)
16:31 < dgilmore> ianweller: i do
16:31 < ricky> Hehe.
16:31 < ianweller> mmcgrath: is this a good time to bring up the toolserver idea i had?
16:32  * ianweller brainwashes dgilmore accordingly
16:33 < dgilmore> ianweller: not going to work im thick headed
16:33 < mmcgrath> ianweller: go ahead.
16:33  * mmcgrath still doesn't totally get it.
16:33 -!- giarc_w [i=hidden-u at] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:33 < ianweller> ok so my idea was to create a toolserver, which could be used for some scripts and other mashups dealing with FAS, mediawiki, and other apps we have for fedora.
16:34 < mmcgrath> ianweller: give me a use case you have in mind.
16:34 < ianweller> the wikimedia foundation in germany has a toolserver, which has some neat scripts that are a little too complex to make mediawiki extensions for
16:34 < ianweller> um
16:34 < ianweller> regex page watching :)
16:34 < ianweller> you would login with FAS, enter what regexes you wanted, and the script would find those pages matching the regex using the API
16:35 < ianweller> it could then aggregate the RSS feeds and send out emails.
16:35 < ianweller> it would only use a bit of extra load on mediawiki, the script itself would reside on the toolserver
16:35 < ricky> I think Debian does have a lot of "non-official" tools that developers setup themselves.  Not sure if they have something like a toolserver, though.
16:35 < mmcgrath> so exactly how much work is involved in implementing that and how many people would be using it?
16:35 -!- jeff_hann [n=arares at] has left #fedora-meeting []
16:35 -!- wolfy [n=lonewolf at fedora/wolfy] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:36 < mmcgrath> also, and I probably still don't understand it, but why is a "regex search engine" called a "tool server" ?
16:36 < MrBawb> what I have at work is an rss to irc gateway, that I use to monitor wiki edits. maybe something similiar would be useful?
16:36 < ianweller> the regex search engine would go on the toolserver, along with other scripts that programmers could write.
16:36  * ianweller notes that this is still a halfbaked idea
16:37 < ianweller> -- here's the wikimedia toolserver
16:37 < mmcgrath> <nod>
16:37  * ricky also notes that they seem to have some sort of application process to get an account.
16:37 < mmcgrath> ianweller: if you think it'll add value, I'd say run with it.  You still have access to the publictest servers so you should have everything you need :)
16:38 < ianweller> ok.
16:38 < ianweller> that's another thing; should there be just one pt server for the 'tools', and if so which one should it be?
16:38 < mmcgrath> Ok, anyone have anything else on the wiki?
16:38 < skvidal> one quick question
16:39 < mmcgrath> ianweller: I'd just keep using pt2 for now.
16:39 < ianweller> mmcgrath: k.
16:39 < skvidal> are we doing anything with the xmlrpc interface for it, yet?
16:39 < mmcgrath> skvidal: not yet, i've actually been trying to get that up and going this afternoon.  I'd expect it to be working soon.
16:39 < ianweller> MrBawb: almost missed your message, i was gonna setup an irc bot to listen to recent changes and report to a channel
16:39 < mmcgrath> skvidal: we _are_ using mediawiki's xmlrpc interface in smolt though.
16:39 < skvidal> mmcgrath: and aren't there mediawiki python bindings?
16:39 < MrBawb> ianweller: ah, cool
16:39 -!- mdomsch [n=Matt_Dom at] has quit Remote closed the connection
16:40 < mmcgrath> good question, I'm not sure.  I'm just using the standard python xmlrpc bindings.
16:40 < skvidal> nod
16:40 < skvidal> that's what I thought
16:40 -!- mdomsch [n=Matt_Dom at] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:40 < skvidal> I wanted to check on that though b/c it is intriguing to me
16:40 < ricky> skvidal: I think so.
16:40 < ianweller> skvidal: i think i remember seeing some somewhere, but i think they're implemented within a bot platform
16:40 < mmcgrath> skvidal: yeah, it'll be interesting to see what our greater community comes up with.
16:40 < f13> if there is xmlrpc, I bet lmacken will hookup an ability to use vim to edit the wiki
16:40 < skvidal> mmcgrath: wiki-mining :)
16:40 < mmcgrath> :)
16:40 < f13> (like he did for the Trac wikis/tickets)
16:40 < mmcgrath> alrighty, if no one has anything else we'll move on to the next topic.
16:41 < ricky> (
16:41 < mmcgrath> ok
16:41 -!- tibbs [n=tibbs at fedora/tibbs] has quit "Konversation terminated!"
16:41 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Open Floor
16:41 < mmcgrath> anyone have anything to discuss?
16:41 < mdomsch> sponsoring people?
16:42 < mdomsch> I've had a couple requests in the last few weeks
16:42 < mmcgrath> mdomsch: always an excellent topic.
16:42 < mmcgrath> how many people have taken on sponsors in the last month?
16:42  * mmcgrath has :)
16:42 < f13> I have not.
16:42 < mdomsch> I presume the method is to have them join sysadmin and sysadmin-test
16:42 < mdomsch> sponsor them there, and find them somethign to do
16:43 < mdomsch> from the trac list
16:43 < mmcgrath> mdomsch: correct, my general approach has been this
16:43 < mmcgrath> 1) get them on sysadmin and try to figure out what they want to do.
16:43 < mmcgrath> from there I usually stick them in sysadmin-devel sysadmin-test or, in rare instances, right into sysadmin-web.
16:43 < mmcgrath> mdomsch: how have your sponsors been?  pretty reactive?
16:43  * abadger1999 has
16:44 < mdomsch> my minions have been pretty quiet thus far
16:44 -!- wolfy [n=lonewolf at fedora/wolfy] has quit Remote closed the connection
16:44 < mdomsch> but I've been away a lot since then too
16:44 -!- sharkcz [n=dan at] has quit "Ukončuji"
16:44 < mmcgrath> abadger1999: how have your sponsors been?
16:45 < abadger1999> They come and go :-(
16:45 < mmcgrath> yeah
16:45 < abadger1999> I think people have time and so they apply and get started, then other things come up and they leave for a while.
16:45 -!- couf [n=bart at fedora/couf] has quit "leaving"
16:45 < mmcgrath> yeah,
16:46 < mmcgrath> thats one of the hardest things I've seen is people volunteering who just don't have the time they need to.
16:46 < mmcgrath> nothing's worse then working with, training, answering questions, for someone that can only give an hour or so every other week.
16:46 < mmcgrath> the interest is nice.  but the amount of work that goes into a voulnteer vs how much you get out doesn't always add up :(
16:46 < mdomsch> it's best to find them something they can be responsible for
16:47 < mmcgrath> I'd *LOVE* to get a volunteer management expert or something at FUDCon this year.
16:47 < mdomsch> ownership breeds interest
16:47 < mdomsch> e.g. someone who is good at mailman instances could offload dgilmore
16:47 < mmcgrath> Thats a good example of a core problem I've seen.
16:48 < mmcgrath> someone comes to volunteer wanting to manage our xen infrastructure (just an example) but then goes away when they find out they have to pay the dues.
16:48 < dgilmore> :(  me will go and hide
16:48 < mmcgrath> when you find someone willing to pay the dues (like work on mailman) they don't stick around very long.
16:48 < mmcgrath> its that hard balance I guess.
16:48  * mmcgrath takes this time to curse at RH's vpn solution.
16:48 < mmcgrath> anywho.
16:49 < ricky> Heh.
16:49 < wfp> coming from the other side, I feel like it's hard to find where I can start to help, other than contrib a package.
16:49 < mmcgrath> mdomsch: do you think we're doing the right thing or should we re-examine our situation?
16:49 -!- drago01_ [n=linux at] has joined #fedora-meeting
16:49 < mmcgrath> wfp: pick a ticket and start helping.
16:49 < mmcgrath> its really that easy.
16:49 < skvidal> wfp: if you find you need access to things ping me
16:50 < skvidal> or mmcgrath
16:50 < mdomsch> that's a good start; picking some easy-to-do things that we'd like a new volunteer to take on would help
16:50 < skvidal> or anyone
16:50 < ricky> How can we encourage more feedback from would-be conributors?
16:50 < dgilmore> mdomsch: please make me obsolete :)
16:50 < skvidal> but I sponsored you for sysadmin
16:50 < londo> picking a ticket sometimes require some knowledge on how the system works though
16:50 < skvidal> so ping me
16:50 -!- drago01 [n=linux at] has quit Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
16:50 < dgilmore> or me
16:50 < ricky> Feel free to ask in #fedora-admin.  We're pretty open about our setup
16:50 < sternecg> londo: true
16:50 -!- drago01_ is now known as drago01
16:50  * dgilmore would like to make sure that if he fell off the planet that things would be ok 
16:51 < wfp> Yeah, it's the details of getting access to systems and stuff.  Either I'm missing the docs on that stuff or I just need to dive and bug you guys as I go on my first trip
16:51 < ricky> wfp: Feel free to bug :-)
16:51 < mmcgrath> wfp: so when you found a ticket you were interested in working on.... what did you do?
16:51 < mmcgrath> and more importantly, why did you do it?
16:52 < wfp> Nothing yet, as I wasn't sure how/what I would still need to do to actually get the appropriate actions.
16:53 < mmcgrath> so you found what you wanted to do.  and then did nothing.
16:53 < ricky> wfp: Commenting on the ticket/asking in #fedora-admin or the list sounds like a good first step.
16:53 < mmcgrath> ricky: but how do we get that point across to people that haven't done it I think is what wfp is saying.
16:53 < mmcgrath> this is the same issue I blogged about the account system the other day.
16:53 < wfp> I found something I *might* be able to do, but wasn't sure how to go about looking into further.
16:54 < ricky> wfp: Did you see by any chance?
16:54 < ricky> Should we work on improving that page?
16:54 < ricky> Or is it not visible enough in the first place?
16:54 < mmcgrath> new voluteers, in my mind, just seem completely clueless as to what to do next, no matter how explicit we document, now matter how full a GettingStarted page is, they just don't do anything.
16:54 < mmcgrath> I don't know if this is a process thing, a training thing or what.
16:54 < ricky> Perhaps a huge banner on the Infrastructure page could help?
16:55 < sternecg> mmcgrath: I would say training..
16:55 < mmcgrath> quaid: you around?
16:55 < ricky> "If you'd like to help, read this!"
16:55 < wfp> What I feel is lacking is a more of a process thing.
16:55 < mmcgrath> I just don't understand why someone would show up, say they want to help (or even worse just sign up for an account) and thast the end of it?
16:55 < abadger1999> 1) joinmsg for cla_done should direct people to the toplevel getting started in fedora page that outlines what projects to join.
16:55 < ricky> mmcgrath: One thing that's weird is that I never see people respond to your welcome emails on list.
16:55 < mmcgrath> I mean if you want to do something, why aren't you looking around for stuff to do, and bugging people to do it?
16:55 < ricky> (Your reply to their introduction)
16:55 < mmcgrath> ricky: no kidding.
16:56 < abadger1999> 2) We should have a group description field that outlines what a group is and what to do once you've decided you want to be a part of it.
16:56 < mmcgrath> We should also make it very clear that applying for a group is the _last_ thing you should do if you're new to fedora.
16:56 < abadger1999> <nod>
16:56 < wfp> For example, from the mailing list, I see you folks appear to be maintaining config files in CVS.  Again, I may missed the docs, but I don't see how you guys do that process.
16:56 < mmcgrath> I love new people but why on earth someone thinks they can come in and be an account system admin is beyond me.
16:57 < ricky> I'm honestly not as concerned about group spam than I am with the response to people that do know what they want to do.
16:57 < skvidal> wfp: once you get access to things you can ssh into certain machines and modify/check things in
16:57 < mmcgrath> wfp: there's no point in telling you that though because you're not at that level yet.
16:57 < mmcgrath> I mean, when the time comes and access is given, one of the first things I always tell people is look at SOP/Puppet.
16:57 < abadger1999> wfp:
16:57 < mmcgrath> but why would someone be given that access if they've not even agreed to do anything yet?
16:58 < wfp> I'm not expecting the access, I just want to see the path.
16:58 < mmcgrath> well, curiosity is one thing.
16:58 < mmcgrath> wfp: lets say you started from the begnining.
16:58 < mmcgrath> how do you think it should have gone?
16:58 < ricky> wfp: It's not that we wouldn't tell you if you asked :-)
16:59 < mmcgrath> lowering the barriers is a very important thing to me which is why I'm bugging wfp. He's fresh meat, clean view of how things seemed to him.
16:59 < ricky> I think we just don't see a point to training that part until the person has something to work on.
17:00 < mmcgrath> I think, perhaps, we need a much better "what to expect" page on the wiki somewhere to help shape what new volunteers can expect.
17:00 < mmcgrath> I always try to do that, its in the GettingStarted section, I think its even in the about section of the account system.
17:00 < mmcgrath> bah, we're out of time.
17:00 < mmcgrath> wfp: we'll have to continue this next time :)  thanks for your comments though
17:01 < sternecg> thanks for the discussion
17:01 < mmcgrath> if no one has anything else we'll close the meeting in 15
17:01 < ricky> Quick thing:
17:01 < ricky> .ticket 576
17:01 < zodbot> ricky: #576 (Infrastructure Contact Information) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac -
17:01 < mmcgrath> ricky: how about a file in the private repo on puppet1?
17:02 < ricky> mmcgrath: That sounds good
17:02 < mmcgrath> k
17:02 < mmcgrath> and with that :)
17:02 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Meeting End
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