RedHat, Fedora future?

Sun Feb 8 20:22:04 UTC 2004

[Disclaimer: my opinion not my employers yada yada]

On Sun, 2004-02-08 at 12:50, Tim Kossack wrote:
> Am So, den 08.02.2004 schrieb Peter Boy um 03:09:
> > Am So, den 08.02.2004 schrieb Tim Kossack um 00:44:
> > > 1. sun (us - based company) ships with all the other plugs, means media
> > > player, java, mp3 (not sure about flash)
> > > http://wwws.sun.com/software/javadesktopsystem/index.html
> > > they also don't seem to have that "oss-compliance-problem" that red hat
> > > seems to have: 
> > 
> > Sun is a per seat licence and you are not allowed to freely redistribute
> > it as with fedora. And you can not freely download the sources and
> > redistribute it (after replacing all RH branding stuff) as with RHEL. So
> > licensing issues are quit different. Again: apples and peaches
> 
> wrong. sun offers jds either per seat or per user. besides (for the 10th

You are splitting hairs -- Peter was emphasizing that you can't
redistribute it.

> time) reg. plugs, i was talking about the commercial desktops of red
> hat. besides, what has all this to do with what this thread is all about
> (usability) - a customer could care less if he's free to redistribute
> rhel under certain terms, because he wants to simply _use_ that stuff,
> and easily and with the least hassle.
> but even if that would be important for some customers, it a) is not for
> others and b) it's not an excuse to have poorer usability/plugs that the
> comp.

I suggest reading http://www.redhat.com/about/mission/opensource.html,
especially the part about lock-in, and asking yourself why we are of a
vastly different opinion.

> > > > Some plugins you are talking about (e.g. mp3) are rarely essential
> > > > ingredients of a commercial desktop. Others are available (e.g. Java).
> > > 
> > > again - sun, lindows, mandrake and partly suse are strongly disagreeing
> > > with you (and red hat).
> > 
> > Doesn't matter. Proof of the pudding is in the eating: How many
> > enterprises will but RHEL, how many Lindows, how many .... 
> 
> sun has sold how many jds to china again (millions)?! 
> and yes, i'm really interested who will make (esp. compared to his size)
> more inroads into the corporate desktop market, especially into small to
> midsize companies...

Especially companies are not the least interested in media players. At
least those I have been dealing with.

[...]
> ok, to clear that up ( i wonder why this misunderstanding after all this
> comes up in the first place, but anyways): 
> when i said that i don't see any differences between corporate and home
> desktop, i of course meant that in terms of usability/plugs _from the
> user's perpective_ (because this was what this thread was and is all
> about), because the argument of you (or red hat for that matter) goes as
> follows: "in corporate environments, a max. ease-of-use as well as a
> complete suite of plugins you need every day is not as important as at
> the desktop at home." 

I beg to differ, it's rather "there are things more important than media
players/plugins, things we don't want to compromise".

> i say, it might be that the hurdles in the corporate environment are
> lower in this respect which means that, if linux has still some
> usability flaws which would hinder it's use on the home desktop
> (grandma, mum, dad etc.), it could be nevertheless of interest for the
> corporate market. so far, so good. 
> but the ultimate goal should be that the desktop for the corporate use
> should be as easy to use and offering the same basic functionality as
> the desktop at home, because companies don't want to spend more on
> training and administration costs as is absolutely necessary. 

I still wonder why you are so bent on that usability stands and falls
with the ability to play back certain media formats. IMO the killer apps
on the desktop, corporate and home alike, are text processing, email,
web browsers, followed by spreadsheets, graphics and image applications.

> besides, they want a maximum of functionality (or, for heaven's sake, at
> least the _choice_ between a max. of officially supported options -
> whether to install this or that plug or not etc.). and if i see (based
> on reviews, product information and partly my own experience) that the
> competition offers far more plugs, and puts more thoughts into
> ease-of-use, polishing than red hat does (therefore prooving that more
> of all that _is_ possible), then the argument about lower hurdles in the
> corporate doesn't cut it in my (as well as the customers) eyes any more.

As the argument of open source vs. proprietary software doesn't seem to
cut it in your eyes, I won't repeat it here.

> i didn't (and don't) say that corporate and home-desktops are _totally_
> identical (like some tools/functionlity that just makes sense in
> networks, certain admin tools for remote access to the various desktops
> , underlying code etc.), but just in terms of overall usability and
> plugs there's (or should be) none.
> and that was that ms-comparison (and this thread) was all about.
> has my point (after the 12. or so email) _finally_ become clear once and
> for all - i _really_ hope so!

You seem to have been so eager to get your point across that you totally
lost sight of the points others emphasize on.

[...]
> ah ok, you meant freedesktop.org
> nevertheless, doing work breaking new grounds is no excuse for lack of
> polish or plugs on the other end.

In my book, non-availability of certain stuff as open source or free
software is definitely a good excuse not to have it in the distribution.

> > > as far as usability and plugs are concerned, i already stated that for
> > > the life of me i can't figure out why there should be any difference
> > > between home and corporate usage (neither do microsoft, sun, lindows,
> > > mandrake and to a lesser extent suse), and that i regard that
> > > "difference" an artificial one, a poor excuse for poor usability (or
> > > lack of plugs).
> > 
> > I don't like my staff watching dvds and playing games while they should
> > get their work done. Therefore I don't care wether xine, mp3, ... is
> > included or not (better not :-) )
> 
> your employees don't have any breaks at all, where they want to surf,
> listening to music etc.?
> also, many companies today have more and more people with laptops, or
> people working at home with a pc of the company. am i supposed to think
> that they have to have 2 os's installed on those, meant one for home and
> one for work...? 

Those machines primarily get acquired for company purposes. It's a
privilege if the user is even allowed to install other software on them.
I'd really like to show you how tightly locked down some Windows
machines are that I've seen, some of them weren't even laptop/home
office machines but mere office PCs. Companies really don't think about
their employees spare time first here.

> so, whatever you and red hat think about it: choice out of the box is
> _good_, and not _bad_ (s.a.)
> 
> > > > They try to extend the KDE menue and you
> > > > find a SuSE menue inside a (hidden) KDE menue, but the menue editor
> > > > shows you the kde menue first, menue entries are doubled, they install a
> > > > lot of software which does not show up in the menue, the don't obey
> > > > different context (e.g. the configuration menue entry in their Gnome
> > > > menue opens the Kde configuration).  And there are many more examples of
> > > > the un-usability of the SuSE desktop (or Mandrake - not so bad as SuSE).
> > > 
> > > just because the other distros might no be perfect, it doesn't mean that they 
> > > not at least having recognized how important usability/plugs are,
> > 
> > But they don't take action. RH did by developing the before mentioned
> > things.
> 
> s.a.
> 
> > > > In short: I can't see any proof for your theses that SuSE (or others)
> > > > have a better polished desktop (desktop - not quantity of delivered
> > > > software)
> > > 
> > > look - leaving this plugin issue aside (which, again, _does_ make a huge
> > > difference) - they're tons of reviews out there which are outlining the
> > > pros and cons of the various desktops. my impression is that red hat's
> > > desktop offerings (up2 red hat 9, rhpw seems not to be much different
> > > reg. usability - maybe partly in plugs) are  - in terms of overall
> > > desktop experience - _last_, and that the gap is widening, not closing.
> > 
> > Unfortunately I don't know those tons of reviews. Again, the tons
> > doesn't matter, but the arguments.
> 
> ok, leaving aside the question if whether there are those advantages are
> real (my opinion) or are just perceived and don't exist (your opinion),
> red hat as problem anyway. because they sell a product, and from a

We sell a service based on a product, that's a huge difference if you
ask me.

> customers perspective, perception plays a very important role. and the
> perception is that red hat sells it's server os as desktop, and that
> other companies have understood that a good server doesn't make
> automatically a good desktop, and therefore act accordingly.
> so look at it from whatever standpoint, it doesn't change the fact that
> red hat a problem (or deficit) here.

None of us argue that there is room for improvement on the desktop side.
Nils
-- 
     Nils Philippsen    /    Red Hat    /    nphilipp at redhat.com
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
 safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."     -- B. Franklin, 1759
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