Assistance for newbies?
David Maier
dave at bardacious.com
Wed Jul 7 20:09:25 UTC 2004
Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
> At 11:52 AM 7/7/2004, Rick Stevens wrote:
>
>> IMHO, a "fedora-install-list" or "fedora-newbies" list would be a good
>> thing--a place for newbies to gather with a much more limited archive
>> for searching. Often a newbie doesn't even know what to look for in
>> the first place. Cutting down on the more advanced subjects might make
>> it easier for them.
>
>
> Unfortunately, this has been proposed and thought of previously. The
> problems with it are segmentation of audience, so that there are also
> fewer people helping the newbies, and less reason for the experts to
> hang out since little or nothing is discussed in which they have any
> interest. Yes, some will deliberately hang out just to provide free
> tech support, but the numbers and volume get reduced. The help vehicle
> is thus less effective.
>
> Besides, anyone who's either clueless enough or rude enough not to
> give a damn about the list footer, monthly reminder, list
> notifications, archives, FAQ's, online docs, in-system docs, and every
> other resource available out there, is also bloody well unlikely to
> *find* let alone join a newbies-only list.
>
> Good idea, not practical in execution.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
Although I've been dabbling with Linux for a couple of years, I consider
myself a newbie. So perhaps my experience, and current profound
frustrations, will help you figure out what will work for people like
me. I don't mind reading HOWTO's, FAQ's, manuals and lists. I spend a
huge amount of time doing that. Part of my problem is that, at the same
time I'm learning about Linux, I'm also learning about packet sniffing,
DNS, TCP, Windows Networking, etc. It's impossible, I'm finding, to do
anything with Linux without being deeply knowledgeable about all things
networking and TCP/IP.
I lurk this list a lot, watching for threads that pertain to things I'm
currently buggering my head against. I see a willingness to help people
like me, but I also notice a real lack of patience with us. Too often,
I will see a response to a question which would answer the question if
only I could understand the answer. The quantity of utilities, tied
with the arcane command lines and switches that are available, makes
understanding the remedy as difficult as understanding the problem. And
yet, so often, a followup confessing ignorance seems to be met with a
fairly short "go read the manual." Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to such
things, but I find I hesitate to ask for help. I'm also aware of the
other side of the coin, which is that this list can't be tech support.
It's just a difficulty I point up.
It would help me if there were an alphabetized list of common common
actions with brief explanations of what command, switch and argument to
use. For example, to get a list of running processes, enter "ps -aux |
more." I've been to the man page for "ps" and I wouldn't know from
reading it that that's what I have to do to get the result I want. I've
read man page after man page and more often than not find them
inscrutable, because the explanation of what the switch does doesn't
make sense to me. I still don't know how to kill a running process
using its name. I figured it out by number, (and it took me 8 hours to
do that) and that's what I do. Am I stupid? Maybe. I'd like to hope not.
At one point, I tried to search the archives of this list, looking for a
thread I'd seen in the month of June. I did a search and turned up
nothing. My only option was to go through the entire month's archives
until I found it. I copied the thread from one of the messages and
pasted it into the search field. It still turned up nothing. So
searching the archives is a very unproductive activity for me if I'm
trying to find something in particular. Or maybe I'm just not using it
right.
I'm sure there's a way to make all of this stuff work for me. I'm sure
it all works if I just put the right spin on an argument or a switch, or
get a big enough picture that I can know more instinctively where to
look and what to look for. I'm getting better, and I'm grateful for
this list. But there is a lack of "big picture" resources to let
someone like me get a toehold.
If a list of good, big picture resources were part of the monthly
mailing, I'd use it. I save the monthly mailing so I have a resource to
go to on how to use the list. If it contained big picture resources, it
would be that much more valuable. You could, legitimately, refer
someone to it if you felt their question could be answered by it.
It would help if there were a way to archive the list by general topic,
e.g., firewall, NAT, DNS, Samba. I know that searching is supposed to
allow me to do that, but, as I said, it hasn't worked for me.
Perhaps you could keep a tally of how many times a particular question
is asked and answered, and, after so many times, it goes on a FAQ. You
could then, in response to a question, cite the FAQ and item number so
someone could go straight there. Then, if they come back and say, " I
read item 6 on the FAQ and I still don't get it," you would at least
know that they gave it a try first.
I hope this helps.
Dave Maier
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