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Re: FC2 doubtful quality?

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:35:30 -0400 (EDT)
"Robert P. J. Day" <rpjday mindspring com> wrote:

>     to those folks who habitually respond to critisicm of FC 1/2 with this 
> annoying, circle-the-wagons, defensive mentality, a piece of advice: grow 
> up.

Nice advice, now try to use it yourself.

>     when someone takes the time to document a number of legitimate concerns 
> and obvious flaws in an *official* release (after three, count 'em, 
> *three* test releases), and also legitimately asks whether he should be 
> concerned about its quality, he deserves a better and more mature answer 
> than "No one is forcing you to use FC2."

Nobody ever criticized anyone for listing legitimate concerns.

>     it's become really tedious to watch the growing trend of promoting 
> fedora core, talking about making it just a terrific distro, how it has a 
> dynamic user community behind it ... yadda yadda yadda ... but whenever 

Typical straw-man arguments.  Instead of addressing specific issues
when they happen you group everything together later so you don't 
have to argue in context.  Lets stick to the current post ok?

> someone posts perfectly reasonable criticism of some aspect, there's a 
> sudden surge of, "hey, if you don't like it, don't use it, ok?"  i suspect 
> it's not the quality of FC2 that might drive people off, it's the 
> closed-minded and dismissive attitude of its alleged supporters.

Personally haven't seen anybody respond to reasonable criticism that 
way, only to excessive hand wringing, or lack of responsibility or gross
misunderstanding.   But would be easier if we were discussing this 
in context.   

If someone makes a criticism, then its fair to help them understand the 
context in which they're complaining.   There seem to be a lot of chicken
littles out there running around freaking out because the sky is falling...   
Pretty sure we're doing the right thing by telling them everything is going 
to be okay and temper the shrill complaints.

>     well, good for you.  and the fact that it works for you means ... what? 
> that it doesn't qualify as a real problem?  fact is, the 
> /etc/init.d/pcmcia file has historically been a bit of a mess -- heck, i 
> recall submitting a bug report on that file as far back as april of 2003:

Nobody said it wasn't a problem.   Why did you jump on the respondent
because he tried to set the problem in context demonstrating the scope 
of the problem to the OP.   Yes there is a problem, but the developers don't 
have  every piece of hardware out there.   There are only so many 
developer-hours in each day and lots of bugs to be solved.   If your pet
bug doesn't happen to be a priority for one of the developers you'll
have to wait a while.

> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=88054
> it's depressing that it's still broken, and in such a blatant way.

Take a pill, see a shrink, hell you could even try to help solve the
problem, but this is no defense for list-spew.

> which doesn't dismiss the original poster's contention that it's still a
> mildly-annoying bug, and one which didn't exist in FC1.  i don't think 
> it's unreasonable for folks to gripe when things which once worked in FC1 
> suddenly stopped working in FC2.

Take it to slashdot.   Griping doesn't help anything.   File a bug report,
and/or help fix things.   Open source works because people who care about
a problem take the time to go fix it.   Until someone cares enough to go
fix it..  it will stay broken.

> oh, man, you *so* did not want to go there.  working from memory here so i 
> hope i'm remembering correctly, i'm pretty sure there have been at least a 
> couple folks who pointed out that they *did* put in time running the test 
> releases, that they *did* identify and report obvious bugs way back when 
> and yet, when FC2 hit the streets, those bugs were still there.

Nobody said every bug would be handled before the release.   It is after all 
a time based release methodology.   The implications of which you had better 
understand before you choose Fedora for your system.   However, the testing 
work is still useful and will help with ongoing releases.   Most post-release bugs 
with FC2 have been solved by helpful people who have supplied work-arounds.

> <snip>

> and again, this is a really childish response.  one has to wonder, just 
> what do you do for a living?  i can just imagine, say, a car salesman with 
> this kind of "don't you dare criticize me and my product" attitude:
> Salesman: "Yes, sir, Mr. Smith, this van has the horsepower you need for 
> pulling your boat, loads of cargo space and foldout seats for the kids, 
> optional 6-way sound system since you like music."
> Mr. Smith: "Yup, it's almost perfect, but I'm not sure if my current roof 
> rack is compatible with the roof mounts ..."
> Salesman: "HEY!  No one's *forcing* you to buy this thing, OK?  You got a 
> problem with it?!  There's lots of other dealers out there, all right?!"

That's exactly right.  Buyer beware.   If you buy a tractor, you better not
come complaining when it won't do 160 on the highway.   You had better
understand what you're "buying" when you choose Fedora.   It's not that 
a tractor is inferior, its just that it has a different intent and isn't meant 
for everyone.   RedHat has the integrity to make it perfectly clear, so nobody 
should be fooled.   On top of all that, we're not talking about a product where 
any money has changed hands..  so the analogy is a bit of stretch anyway.

> hey, good idea, dude.  there's nothing that placates an unsatisfied user 
> more than suggesting they take their talents elsewhere.  *that'll* help 
> the cause, fer shure.

>From what I read, the respondent was trying to help the OP understand
the Fedora project and give honest direction to stay with FC1/RH9 or pick
another distribution if FC2 wasn't an appropriate choice.   This seems
like useful help instead of sticking yer head in the sand and pretending
Fedora is for everyone.   In fact, it looks like a direct answer to a direct
question.  (Even though the original question looked more like a thinly 
veiled troll)

Does this mean anybody wants bugs and is happy about it?  NO.   Just
leave the whining, misunderstanding and sense of entitlement on 
slashdot where it belongs.

> once again, see above.  ("... or just switch to something that works." 
> now *there's* some great testimonial.)

Don't buy a steam shovel if you need a crane.   It's about helping people
understand the nature, intent, philosophy, intended audience and release
methodology of Fedora.   FC2 was a huge leap forward and therefore
there are going to be additional teething problem.   Perhaps the testing 
phase should have been a bit longer, but there is a price to pay for that 
decision too.

> and if it isn't, well, those whiners can take their complaints elsewhere, 
> can't they?

So, your argument comes down to.. "whining is a good thing"?    There are 
already enough forums out there for the whiners.  Lets use this one to 
help people make the best choice for themselves and solve problems for
those who choose Fedora.


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