Comments on bug 140214 - the removal of X utilities?

[Giulio Sorrentino]

Bryan Ischo wrote:

>>Bryan Ischo wrote:
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>[...]
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>>>The number of users of these programs is probably not terribly large,
>>>but then again, the size of these programs and the difficulty in
>>>maintaining them is incredibly small (they have been a part of the base
>>>X system for about 20 years now and as far as I know there has not been
>>>a bug or maintaince issue with these programs in 20 years!).
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Probably you have respond to yourself.
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>I think that what you are referring to is my statement that "the number of
>users of this program is probably not terribly large".  But please balance
>that against the facts that 1) these programs have been a part of the base
>distribution for 20 years, 2) I am only supposing that the number of users
>is not large, I have no idea how many people are actually using it, and 3)
>these programs have not caused any kind of problem that I am aware of
>since the beginning of the X11 project some 20+ years ago!
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As you say that programs exist from 20+ years ago.
Fedora is a desktop distribuition: it needs something new and useful, 
not something bit usable and bit known.
Prove me that xcalc is better than kcalc or gcalculator, two programs 
that are linked in kde/gnome menù and so well known...

>>>And why not wait until the X.org project decides to remove these
>>>programs
>>>to do that?  The simple fact is that it has taken MORE maintainance
>>>work to prematurely remove these programs, for no apparent reason, than
>>>it ever did to just leave them in.  And it in no way satisfies any user
>>>to have these programs removed nor does it improve the Fedora Core
>>>distribution.
>>>
>>>
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>>If nobody use them why they should increase packet's size?
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>That's a very fine line to walk.  How do we know that "nobody uses them"?
>What's the process by which the Fedora team decides that "nobody" uses a
>particular program?  Are they applying their criteria consistently for all
>programs?  Or is it just that when one developer arbitrarily decides that
>he/she doesn't *think* that something is useful, that he/she can just
>delete it?  And if there are then requests from users to put those
>programs back in, is it standard policy to ignore them?
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>*I* don't use *any* of the KDE programs.  Should Fedora just go ahead and
>remove KDE because some subset of users don't use it?
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>Of course there have to be tradeoffs and decisions made about what
>programs to include and what not.  I'm just saying that 1) the policy
>should be applied consistently, 2) users' opinions should be included in
>the decision making process, 3) extra consideration should be given to
>"legacy" applications that have existed for 20+ years, and 4) if a program
>is to be removed, it should ideally already have a replacement RPM to make
>it available to users who still want it.
>
>I have no idea if (1) was true in this case, but I am pretty sure that (2)
>and (3) were not true, and that (4) was definitely not true.
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This programs are surely less "famous" than alternatives included in 
desktop enviroments.
At the same time, as written before, fedora is not used by experts, but 
by new users, so i can conclude that this programs are not used from 
everybody.

>>>The most frustrating thing is that Mike A. Harris simply gives no
>>>reason for removing them, and seems to refuse to respond to user's
>>>pleas to leave these insignificant programs in the x11-xorg RPM.  All
>>>that is necessary to put these programs back in is the removal of two
>>>or three comment characters that Mike A. Harris added to the spec file.
>>> That's it.  Why won't he do this?
>>>
>>>
>>>      
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>>This is absolutely THE worst mode for acting...
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>Not sure what you mean here.  It's worse for the program to have been
>removed without (reasonable) explanation, or it's worse to listen to users
>and put it back in?
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The first.

>>>Are these decisions made by a collective of developers at Fedora or is
>>>it all the work of just one person?  If there is collective input on
>>>this, can I please hear some thoughts from other developers?  If it's
>>>the work of just one person, can I please at least hear a reasonable
>>>explanation from that person about why this has been done?
>>>
>>>
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>>I think that everyman should response on his actions when somebody
>>asks...
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>I think I agree, if I understand what you are saying.
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>Thank you, and best wishes,
>Bryan
>
>p.s. You may wonder how I respond so quickly to these emails.  Ironically
>enough it's because I get notification *via xbiff, one of the programs
>removed by Mike A. Harris*, whenever there is new email on this list.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bryan Ischo             bryan at ischo.com                          N, R, 6
>New York, NY, USA       http://www.ischo.com            RedHat Linux 7.3
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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So xbiff is an email client.
How does it works?
Bye