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RE: FC5 - T3 - Had enough. Package Managers, Yumex is crap.

Jim Cornette wrote:
> Daniel B. Thurman wrote:
> > Unfortunately, yumex and package manager is really a bad
> > design IMHO because when I went through all the trouble
> > of identifying the packages I wanted installed (it was
> > massive), all of these packages would spend 12 hours
> > downloading GB of files from the Internet, start testing
> > the transaction and either crash or hang the FC5-T3 completely,
> > i.e I could no longer ping FC5-T3.
> Is it the version of yumex from Fedora Extras development?

Yes, I used the version directy out of the Fedora's Extras
development area, I believe.  This is actually the first time
I took took the time to play with a Test version of FC.

> > 
> > Restarting the package programs, would perform a yum clean up
> > effectively wiping out the 12 hours (3 times) or so downloaded
> > package I was looking for the designer of these package program
> > and wanted to say a few unkind words.  I was definately displeased.
> > Why do the designer of these package programs decide to do an
> > automatic cleanup and don't even bother asking the user first
> > is beyond me. 
> I usually run yum clean all after verifying the install went well. 
> Usually there are still packages cached in 
> /var/cache/yum/development/packages after pirut exits. I did not realize 
> that pirut would do a cleanup. This is bad if a user wanted to copy the 
> rpms that were downloaded to media for future upgrades on other 
> non-networked machines. If it does actually cleanup, filing a bug report 
> against pirut would be wise. WE cannot do much more than side either way 
> or another action. Updating the program is easier if the designer knows 
> about the bug.

Yes, that is what I am saying.  Both pirut and yumex seemed to do
the same thing.  About pirut, it is very non-intuitive - especially
where it does things in stages and what surprised the heck out of
me was when it completed a download, the dialog would disappear and
then you are staring at the main pirut window -- it took me 6-8 times
of going through this before I realized that after the download dialog
quit, I was supposed to hit the <Apply> button AGAIN (Yes, I did that
earlier which started the download in the first place.  I *thought*
the download died - so I terminated pirut and restarted the WHOLE DARN
PROCESS again with the selection of packages etc. etc. it was just
frustrating - before you say - you dummy! -- *think* about it - if
you just did not know what to expect next - what are you supposed
to THINK what to do next?  Yea, Yea... it got me good.)  When the
"Updating Software" dialog runs to completion, clicking OK terminates
the dialog window AND pirut.  Grrrrrr.....  I wasn't done YET!!!
VERY VERY COUNTER INUITIVE!!  Are these developers experienced with
GUI interfaces and taught how to be INTUITIVE????  I guess in this
case, the answer is NO WAY.

Filing a bug report???  I was just too tired - peeved as hell - and
need a break - my eyes are bloodshot.  My wife pissed at me.  Someday
I will file the bug report.

> > 
> > Never mind that this is T3 - this is a really horendeous way
> > to treat a tester when they cannot even download the updates
> > or packages needed to get FC5-T3 updated to a useful state.
> > Maybe the best thing to do is to download the RPM files and
> > do a rpm manual install and toss these package managers
> > completely out of my FC5-T3 system.
> If you want to install off of the local media, you can make a repo file 
> or edit the link to baseurl=file:///media/<mountpoint-for-DVD> and run 
> yum, pirut to install desired packages from the install disc. (dvd 
> anyway). I had to set up a local repo to update a non-networked computer 
> from FC5T2 to FC5T3 because of a USB DVD problem and the upgrade took. 
> It did take a really long time to complete, but it did complete.

Well... I had to learn how to use pirut first :-(  Second, I trusted this
tool would do the job (and that I understood how it worked), so after
working at it and toiling over repeat GB downloads and several days lost
I guess in retrosect this is a good idea.  Yes, I will do that for Test
releases of FC.  sigh.

> > 
> > Hell, with yumex, I tried to select 5 packages - it went through
> > the whole thing up to transaction testing and the whole program
> > dropped dead, i.e. the entire application program disappeared
> > and no trace/log of what the heck happened.  Yumex is in serious
> > need of repair - it is extremely unstable.  Package Manager is
> > probably more stable but is dumber than an ox.
> A select all for different groups would make things more bearable on the 
> installer. Pirut pretty much mirrors what is available from the 
> installer except there is a list feature where you can pick items that 
> are not in any particular group. I like pirut and it performs the job 
> well for my purposes. I don't think that the program should be 
> criticized harshly. I do think that nicely toned bug reports to 
> bugzilla.redhat.com and component pirut would aid in improvements to the 
> program.

Well... with what I was going through, I hope you understand that once
you figure out how the tool is supposed to work, then perhaps you are
right.  It has some subtle nuances and I am sure it will throw off some
people who are not used to it at least for the first time.  I was flaming
mad due to all the trip ups, gotchas, and long download times I am sure
I must have dropped my marbles somewhere and wanted to rip off someone's

> > 
> > I think I will stop here and take a long break. I will let the
> > other testers do the fun part of testing.  I am just not going
> > to continue to rubber hose my self and scream 'mea culpa'.
> Filing bug reports against the problems which you noted would be great 
> to try to eliminate them for FC5. I don't think a large amount can be 
> done since the freeze is today and FC5 should be out shortly after.
> The trouble to file bug reports might get improvements added after FC5 
> is released though.

Sigh... I sorta did with this message.  I think everyone has read this
message and gets it.

> Thanks for taking the time to test the distro to be. It looks like you 
> might be holding back on upgrading for awhile.

Well... never say never.  A festering burr needs to be removed so I
manually used pirut and piece-meal-at-a-time downloaded and updated
ALL (but the conflicting) packages and some that was obviously not
what I wanted.  It was slow, tedious, but after 5 days - I did get
the job done as far as installing FC-T3  This is nothing to say about
anything else cuz I haven't started yet.

> I mostly like what I have experienced with the test distribution. I did 
> not like certain additions and deletions of programs and such. I 
> expressed my likes/dislikes and realize the distribution to be 
> marketable for a wide range of users, certain programs have to be 
> eliminated or made absolutely unexciting to be less offensive to the 
> mainstream. Personally, I find the elimination of certain programs to 
> cut away at the personality of Linux distributions in general. I can add 
> what I need. Those who want to make the distribution boring can become 
> satsfied and developers can hide graphics defects by not exposing the 
> cards to tests.

I admit that the FC5-T3 is at least a pretty GUI - but - I still think
that there needs to be a better standards and that anything to streamline
the installation process so that installation is as painless as possible,
is INTUITIVE that my 5 year old kid can whiz away and do it.  Pirut looks like
it was designed for the visually challenged - I mean these fonts and icons
are HUGE - imagine what this might look like on a 640x480 screen! :-)  I liked
the layout of of yumex as it was CLEAR what was being selected in the Queue.
As for pirut - when you make your package selections and once you hit that
Apply button, any conflicts or problems after that cannot be deselected!
You CANNOT backtrack!!  You HAVE TO START COMPLETELY OVER!!  Now - I hope
you see WHY I said - piece of **** - bad design planning.  If yumex was
stable, I would choose it hands down over pirut only because it is MUCH
more intuitive IMHO.  You CAN backout your package selections and try again
but more nicely - you can see the OUTPUT to determine the conclicting package
and make informed decisions all while the program is still running.

> Jim
> > Had enough,
> > Dan
> > 

Thanks for responding, and I hope to be more civil in the future and first
consult my therapist before flaming off again :-)


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