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Re: From release notes for FC5T3 (web)

i think i originally sent this from the wrong mail account, so it
likely got rejected for the list.  if not, apologies for dual posting.

On Fri, 2006-03-10 at 17:06 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >
> The discussion that happened again was about implementing the 
> "everything" installation feature as opposed to other interface 
> improvements so instead of assuming anything, it would good to put in 
> the effort where it would make much better sense. Bugzilla RFE's are 
> specific and directed towards the relevant developers compared to 
> discussions in the users list which is going to probably make no 
> difference at all.

i've been reading this discussion a bit.  huge brawls like this tend
to be discussions which i avoid.  that said, i feel a need to comment.
sorry about that.

i think this is all about a symptom of a problem.  not the problem

i find this kind of statement pretty disappointing:

> specific and directed towards the relevant developers compared to 
> discussions in the users list which is going to probably make no 
> difference at all.

it seems to me that the problem here is that the whole thing took
fedora users by surprise.  i have a feeling that there are far more of
us who use the all option than anyone thought.

but, again, that's not the real problem, when you come down to it.

we talk about fedora being a community release.  but, it's not -- not really.

the success or failure of most projects depends on whether they meet their
user's needs.  lots of businesses have figured that out over the years.
and we (may *I*, a mere user say we?), here on the users-list comprise
at least a semi-reasonable sample of FC users.

organizations of lots of types have learned to take the time to check with
their user base to see how it feels about lots of things.  you can call it
about anything you want -- focus groups, opinion polls, online questionaires,
et. al.

projects which succeed are those which stay in close touch with their
user base, clientele, customers -- whatever you want to call it.

unfortunately, FC doesn't seem to be one of those projects.  FC has the
strong feel of a project which is almost completely (note the almost)
controlled from the top.  with little contact with the user base at the

clearly, there are some mechanisms for (mere) users to communicate to the
powers on high.  they just don't work very well.

i've been a developer for more than 25 years now.  and i know how developers
feel about things.  we always think we know best.  and sometimes we do.

but other times we don't -- but we still think we do.

bugzilla is a great way to enter bugs -- presuming that anyone wanted to
know about them.  or fix them.  joining the developers list is a great way
to keep tabs on where development is going -- if you have huge amounts of time
to spare for it.

but, they are NOT good ways of finding out how users feel about proposed changes.
presuming that anyone cares about those users' feelings.

many failed companies have discovered that problem.

successful organizations have learned that they must proactively ASK their
user base how they feel about proposed changes.  and pay attention to what
they are told.  saying something like "you should tell us" doesn't work.

and then meet the users' needs as best as can be done.  nobody can make everybody
happy all the time.  and there are some issues that you can't make everyone
happy about, no matter what you do.  and there are people who will never be
happy, no matter what you do.

but, if you don't take the time to find out how they feel,
then there's not much chance.

my 2 cents.  ymmv.


cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.

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