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Re: Request Regarding the "Remove SELinux" Thread



On Mon, 2007-09-24 at 18:06 -0400, David Boles wrote: 
> on 9/24/2007 5:28 PM, Mike McCarty wrote:
> > David Boles wrote:
> >> on 9/21/2007 5:56 PM, Mike McCarty wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm sorry list but I just can't resist this.  ;-)
> >>
> >> This is something my parents said to me when I was a know-it-all teen.
> >>
> >> We will miss you when you leave (my name was here) Mike. Write when you
> >> find work.  ;-)
> > 
> > I don't expect that any here will miss me.
> > Also, I don't particularly care.

I bet you actually would. <grins> I'd miss you for being so cantankerous
and as a Devil's Advocate! <chuckles> 

> Actually I was just trying to *****-slap you awake. 

That's kinda "aggressive", don't you think? Does anyone -have- to live
up to our expectations? Myself, ...I think not. 

> There have been some
> really experienced, knowledgeable, and important Linux people trying to
> politely explain SELinux to you, both how and why, for several days.
> 
> And there you stand with your fingers in your ears and loudly saying
> *la-la-la* I'm not listening!!

... it might be better to preface that statement with "From my
perception..." as that is what it is and not necessarily the case from
his point of view.  

> From what I have read you have the choice of using Fedora and disabling
> SELinux. Or not using Fedora. Period. And I do not see Fedora making you a
> special 'Mike' DVD to install without SELinux.

That has never been his point. I agree that it would be better for me,
as a user with little to no actual use for SELinux, to be able to remove
it. Beagle comes to mind. And it does seem to waste a tick or two, even
completely turned off, from what I'm reading. I'm a speed freak, and
there are times when my system feels no faster than my old 486 DX/2 66
with 32 megs of memory did, running Caldera. These are my perceptions
and opinions. Remember, the "Geek Manifesto" is the pursuit of the
"Right Thing"... and that usually means a spirited intellectual debate. 

Plenty of Hell was raised about Beagle to the point it seems to have
been ditched. It just didn't happen to be the "Right Thing". Most of the
people discussing SELinux were the very same ones who discussed the cons
of Beagle. So, it could happen that SELinux could be "Not Installed" as
an option at install time, if a modified kernel was available to be
installed, at that point. And, if the apps could run with or without it,
if that was a part of the modifications that are being made anyway. I'm
not a coder, but it would seem that if an app can be modified to rely on
SELinux, at the same time another hook could be included to run without
it existing on the system at all. It merely becomes a decision to do so.
I think that omission is core to the debate... that Fedora cannot run
without it and/or months of hand editing a pile of source-code to make
it so. 

We do have two camps of users here: 

1.) Those that hail back to the Bob Young days, who have a historical
and personal stake in RedHat and it's success. In those days, the
individual users opinions counted and everyone was evangelical over
spreading the news about a potential "Windows Killer". The price was
relatively cheap for the box set to Joe <aka Lunch> Bucket. Many became
serious admins later on. Then SOMEBODY kicked users to the curb. IMHO,
that was not a good decision to make. 

2.) Folks that are happy and excited to be in the fold of the new
paradigm of "Fedora" and be part of the test-bed to benefit RH
commercial users through endless beta-testing ...which is what it is
from my viewpoint and from reading the manifesto explaining the base
goals of the "Fedora Project". 

Older farts like me would like to see it nudged back towards the old
experience of a more-stable user version of RH, as that is where we
"grew-up". So, this "movement" to removing something as pervasive as
SELinux is how it was back when users could help define the very nature
of the distro and that was respected. Bob Young was all about the
end-user. I've met him on many occasions, especially after he hired me
in 1999. 
> 
> It's been real. And it's been fun. But it ain't been real fun.

But, it has been interesting, no? 

> Now please troll away and let the people with real problems and issues
> get some help from the list.

If your Father spoke to you in that fashion, would you not resent it?
While you did use the word "please" it still comes across to me as
telling someone else what to do or how to behave whose perceptions
differ from yours. That he should shut-up for the convenience factor. 

The most difficult exercise I ever had to learn, in my life, was to go
an entire day without using a "should". Of course we "should" our
computers when we edit .conf scripts, to tell it (brute-force) how to
behave for our use. It's not considered a good thing to do that to
others, lest you take it home with you and offend those close to you by
the same treatment. Treating another as we treat our computers is
"Objectification" or treating someone as an object that possesses none
of the inherent rights of a human being. When and if that happens with
repercussions, notice the sky and see if it cracks open. A person's
whole life can become altered, in ways one would never hope to
experience, with others becoming injured in the process. 

It happens. Hard-headed me had to learn that the hard way. So, I just
sadly pass the lesson learned forward, for free. If both sides would
just respond rather than react, drop the name calling, the "shoulds",
"my way or the highway", lack of perspective taking, and the other 100+
elements of criminal thinking, this debate may have been over some time
ago with far less traffic reacting to the verbal barbs being lobbed like
hand-grenades, from both sides of the aisle. 

I believe we're ALL searching for the "Right Thing" here. As old Karl
Marx expounded "Thesis versus Antithesis equals Synthesis". When it's
kept on an intellectual basis, the meshing of ideas can be a very good
thing. Everyone has a perception. Sometimes they become valuable to us
in ways that cannot be predicted, even if we view them as 180 degrees
away from our present thinking. Again, I had to learn the hard way.
<smiles> But, I'm catching on through dogged persistence. This is not
directed AT you, David... rather the list. While I hope you take this
into your considerations, my intent to not personally single you out.
<grins> 

I really miss the old RH days. I think others do too, and that might be
some old baggage that could be discarded after considerations, and just
move on. One way or the the other. It's a difficult decision to make
though. If I pound on Rahul, it's only because I miss the old days. So,
I apologize for that. Ric

-- 
================================================
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"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
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