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Re: Java problem



On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 07:27 -0700, Karl Larsen wrote:
> Peter Boy wrote:
> > Am Sonntag, den 30.12.2007, 12:49 -0600 schrieb Les Mikesell:
> >   
> >> It would be better if you tried to understand the consequences of this 
> >> choice instead of blindly defending it.
> >>     
> > As with most decisions in real life: most benefits in one dimension have
> > drawbacks in others. If I want the freedom of free software, I may have
> > to struggle with issues in using non-free software. It is simply a
> > matter of choice (and conscious decision).
> >
> >   
> >>> Fedora did not choose "not to be compatible with..." but Fedora choosed
> >>> not to include an non-free program (i.e. Sun's Java)
> >>>       
> >> They did both.  Including or not including isn't the issue.  Making it 
> >> difficult for the user to install his own freely available copy is one 
> >> problem.  
> >>     
> >
> > Fedora does not make it specifically difficult. You may install the Sun
> > provided Linux rpm, are free to search the Sun bugzilla database why it
> > doesn't work out of the box (doesn't work in any Linux distribution, the
> > bug report is some years old and Sun choosed not to fix it), install one
> > of the suggested workarounds (e.g. edit a shell script
> > in /etc/profile.d) and you are ready to go. As with any distributions
> > Fedora does only care about software, which is part of its distribution.
> > Third party vendors have to care ybout their software.
> >
> > And don't confuse the Fedora model with RHEL. In RHEL Red Hat takes care
> > about Sun java integration and customers have to pay for it. Or the
> > former SuSE distribution where SuSE made a different regarding the
> > licence issue.
> >
> >   
> >> A whole separate 'jpackage' project has to exist just to fix 
> >> this problem in the distribution. The problem wouldn't exist if the 
> >> distribution included a java-*-sun-compat package of perfectly legal 
> >> symlinks.
> >>     
> >
> > You may think of the jpackage distribution as just another workaround
> > for the fact that Sun didn't care about Linux compatibility of their
> > Linus rpm's. And it is a general purpose workaround, not a Fedora
> > specific one.
> >
> >
> >   
> >> The bigger problem is distributing something that is not java compatable 
> >>   but executing it with the java name.  Microsoft tried to promote an 
> >> incompatible program that similarly fit their agenda with the java name 
> >> and Sun successfully sued them over it.  The fedora-shipped not-java 
> >> program that executes with the java name does just as much damage and 
> >> shouldn't be named java until it passes the compatibility tests.  I'm 
> >> surprised fedora's legal dept. allowed this abuse of a trademarked name.
> >>     
> >
> > The software is not shipped as java, but as gcj (and with some starter
> > scripts with the filenama java for compatibility). And in contrast to MS
> > the gcj project aimed to full compatibility and the lack thereof was an
> > intermediate state during development. All this is quite different.
> >
> >
> >   
> >>> So you can develope (or simply run) against the reference version and
> >>> you can test (and support the devel of) the truly free alternative in
> >>> parallel. That's the Fedora way.
> >>>       
> >> It's not an alternative java until it passes the compatibility test.
> >>     
> >
> > You are free, not to use (and just to ignore) it! Remember, you just
> > have to use one of the above mentioned alternative ways.
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >   
>     You guys are both wrong. Fedora does ship F7 and F8 with a small 
> java version 1.5 which is too old for newer java programs, and that 
> broken icedtea that does nothing good. But light at the end of the 
> tunnel. Fedora can make the necessary changes to their design to allow 
> the method given on the Sun Site to work. I have been doing the work. 
> Look at my new messages on java.
----
nice of you to weigh in on something you know absolutely nothing about.

Craig


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