Java problem

Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com
Thu Jan 3 19:53:56 UTC 2008


Lamar Owen wrote:
> 
>> If you can't measure it, you can't improve it.  And if you haven't
>> measured it, why, if you release it, should someone install it?
> 
> To help develop and test it perhaps? Fedora is a community, not a product.

I thought rawhide was the place for testing.

> Yes, a user typically doesn't care about that.  But a user SHOULD care about 
> it, and learn that truly Free software is a worthwhile goal, regardless of 
> the inconvenience. 

That is a religion, not an observation.  Not having a monopoly is what 
I'd consider a better goal, and letting competition deliver what is 
worthwhile.

> While I am one who actually understands your issue, and while I agree with 
> much of it, at the same time, when I chose to run Fedora 8 on this laptop I 
> knew (or should have known) what I was getting into, and I also knew that 
> things would be volatile.  This is not an Enterprise distribution, after all.  
> Do I despise it when I have to hand-patch the VMware source shim to get it to 
> compile, on a regular basis?  Sure I do; but it's as much VMware's fault as 
> it is Fedora's.

No it isn't.  That would be the same for any non-included code.  You 
can't seriously think that every possible, useful piece of code should 
be included in the distribution and all rebuilt whenever any of it is, 
can you?

> And, for that matter, it's my own fault for choosing a 
> proprietary virtualization solution on top of an unsupported (by VMware) 
> distribution; and I accept that responsibility.  

But you've got that source that you recompile every time the kernel 
breaks your binary.

> Do I hate it when a new kernel version comes along that breaks the drivers for 
> my video card?  Sure: but I chose to buy that card, I chose to run Fedora, 
> and I chose to run the BLOB drivers; so it's my fault as much as it is the 
> others' fault.  Will I submit bug reports?  Perhaps; perhaps I'll just wait, 
> and perhaps I won't blindly update my kernel (very very few kernel bugs 
> result in remote system compromise, and I run enough layers of security, and 
> am willing enough to reinstall my system from scratch if need be, to where 
> it's not an issue). Better, though, is that the manufacturer of my FireGL 
> V3100 is releasing the source so that it can be integrated upstream, helping 
> everyone.

Maybe - do you expect the people who don't care about the trouble they 
are causing you now to do any better once they are in complete control?

> But to bring it back to Java: Fedora is providing the most compatible Java 
> that is available under a Fedora-compatible license. 

Is this horseshoes?  Do you get extra points if your code almost works?

> 
> This is much like the IPv4 to IPv6 'migration' situation that's been discussed 
> all over NANOG (and other networking groups) for years;
[...]
> 
> The 'purist' solution would have been IPv6 instead of NAT; 

The 'purist' approach would have been to use the overspec'd and 
underimplemented OSI protocols in the first place instead of IP and not 
run out of addresses.  But there wasn't a *bsd licensed version to drive 
adoption (or a free gov't sponsored directory service)...

> use this as a 
> comparison to the 'purely Free Fedora stance' versus the 'I just want it to 
> work' stance: many network ops will say (probably correctly!) that NAT set 
> back the Internet ten years or more on getting IPv6 deployed.  Of course, the 
> overreaching expansion and bloat that is IPv6 didn't help any!  Necessity is 
> the mother of invention; having no necessity produces feeping creaturitis.
> 
> Our 'popular network protocol' wasn't designed; it was developed in an 
> iterative and not well managed process  (RFC's?  Managed?  ROTFL!) ; yet it 
> works.

I believe there was exactly one non-backwards compatible change when 
there were about a dozen hosts connected.  Since then, backwards 
compatibility and not breaking the existing, installed base has been the 
primary concern - and the reason that base has continued to increase.

-- 
    Les Mikesell
     lesmikesell at gmail.com





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