Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?

Wed Jul 16 01:16:09 UTC 2008

At 07:49 PM 7/15/2008, you wrote:
>Message: 1
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:57:06 +0100
>From: Timothy Murphy <gayleard at eircom.net>
>Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
>To: fedora-list at redhat.com
>Message-ID: <g5ja05$lko$1 at ger.gmane.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>Gordon Messmer wrote:
>
> > Stallman's concern is for our Freedom to use the computers
> > that we purchase for our own ends and needs, rather than as dictated to
> > us by someone else.  Linus has repeatedly shown that he doesn't care
> > about that Freedom, and RMS would be a fool to step aside and let Linus
> > act as a steward for it.
>
>If you think Linux, or Linus, is unethical
>why do you run Linux? Or even GNU/Linux?
>There are lots of other OS's.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:23:00 -0700
>From: Gordon Messmer <yinyang at eburg.com>
>Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <487D3154.2090007 at eburg.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>Timothy Murphy wrote:
> > Gordon Messmer wrote:
> >
> >> Stallman's concern is for our Freedom to use the computers that we
> >> purchase for our own ends and ...
>...snip...
> >
> > If you think Linux, or Linus, is unethical why do you run Linux? Or
> > even GNU/Linux? There are lots of other OS's.
>
>Mostly because Linus isn't capable of screwing up the Freedom that's
>guarded by the GPL.
>
>That said, the problem with Linus isn't usually his antipathy for
>Freedom, just his apathy.  He'd make an awful steward for Free Software,
>even if he's capable enough as a lead for the Linux kernel.
>
>Just because I don't think he's fit for one specific job, don't infer
>that I think he's unfit for every job.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:25:25 -0700
>From: Gordon Messmer <yinyang at eburg.com>
>Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <487D31E5.3000800 at eburg.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>Les Mikesell wrote:
> > But it is equally ridiculous either way, when 80+% is neither GNU nor
> > Linux code.  Calling it an xwindow system would make more sense.  Or
> > perhaps a firefox/thunderbird/openoffice.org system - with most of the
> > other parts interchangeable.
>
>If you're talking about a distribution, then I suppose it's fine.  When
>you refer to the *operating system*, though, that's a different story.
>GNU/Linux is an operating system.  It implements a defined operating
>system interface.  Linux, by itself, is not an operating system.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:28:26 -0700
>From: Gordon Messmer <yinyang at eburg.com>
>Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <487D329A.50403 at eburg.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>Les Mikesell wrote:
> > I didn't mean the word GNU. Reflexive acronyms are easy but useless.
> > What was the working system before Linux?
>
>It was GNU.  GNU, as a system, pre-dates Linux.
>
>GNU was not built on top of Linux.  Linux was eventually able to run GNU.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:41:55 +0000 (UTC)
>From: Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler at chello.at>
>Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
>To: fedora-list at redhat.com
>Message-ID: <loom.20080715T232430-317 at post.gmane.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>Les Mikesell <lesmikesell <at> gmail.com> writes:
> > Why not name it something that gives the appropriate credit to the 83.5%
> > that has nothing to do with GNU
>
>Then let's call it KDE/GNU/Linux. :-)
>
>Did you know:
>* excluding game data (nexuiz-data, vegastrike-data, openarena,
>alienarena-data), the largest Fedora package is a KDE package
>(kdelibs-apidocs)?
>* out of the 40 largest packages (and that includes game data), 5 are KDE or
>related packages (kdelibs-apidocs, qt-doc, digikam-doc, kdebase-workspace,
>kdeedu)?
>* excluding game data (nexuiz-data, vegastrike-data, openarena), the largest
>Fedora SRPM is a KDE package (kde-i18n)?
>* out of the 50 largest SRPMs (and that includes game data), 9 are KDE or
>related packages (kde-i18n, kde-l10n, qt, koffice, koffice-langpack,
>digikam-doc, kdeedu, kdebase-runtime, kdebase-workspace)?
>
>         Kevin Kofler
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:01:11 +0200
>From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <200807160201.11997.listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="utf-8"
>
>tisdagen den 15 juli 2008 skrev Tim:
> > On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 02:48 +0200, BjÃ¶rn Persson wrote:
> > > What exactly is it that you don't want to call "GNU/Linux"? What ...
>...snip...
> > > Is Bash part of what you call Linux?...
> >
> > They're all part of what's released as an OS called something-or-other
> > Linux.
>
>Show me something that has been released as an OS called something-or-other
>Linux and contains Kylix.
>
> > Just the
> > same as a lot of software is called Windows software, despite never
> > being written by Microsoft.  Over time, software *for* Linux, or
> > software *for* Windows just gets called Linux software or Windows
> > software.
>
>Can you support your implied claim that "Windows software" means "part of
>Windows"? I read it as "software for Windows".
>
>BjÃ¶rn Persson
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:01:59 +0200
>From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <200807160201.59614.listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="utf-8"
>
>Joe Klemmer wrote:
> > On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 02:48 +0200, BjÃ¶rn Persson wrote:
> > > Is Udev part of what you call Linux?
> >
> >       Yes.
>  ...snip...
> >       While it's a fact that the kernel is 
> the only part of any distro that's
> > actually named Linux, The name has become attached to the entire OS.
>
>Based on your answers I draw the conclusion that you use "Linux" as a
>collective name for all software that can run in a Unix-like environment,
>regardless of who wrote it or whether it's free or not. You probably think of
>Fedora, Gentoo, Ubuntu et cetera as different subsets of Linux, as none of
>them contains Kylix for example. You also don't seem to make any distinction
>between operating systems and applications, but consider all software part of
>the operating system.
>
>I seriously doubt that's what Linus Torvalds 
>means when he says "Linux", and I
>can assure you that Richard Stallman does not consider Kylix a part of
>GNU/Linux.
>
>BjÃ¶rn Persson
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:02:48 -0500
>From: Les Mikesell <lesmikesell at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <487D3AA8.3080603 at gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>Gordon Messmer wrote:
> > Les Mikesell wrote:
> >>
> >> I didn't mean the word GNU. Reflexive acronyms are easy but useless.
> >> What was the working system before Linux?
> >
> > It was GNU.  GNU, as a system, pre-dates Linux.
>
>As a system of what?
>
> > GNU was not built on top of Linux.  Linux was eventually able to run GNU.
>
>GNU what?  Emacs?  I was more interested in running apache and sendmail
>at the time and didn't care if it was bsd, linux, or unix underneath.
>
>------------------------------
>Message: 9
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:02:33 +0200
>From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <200807160202.33291.listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="utf-8"
>
>Gordon Messmer wrote:
> > Joe Klemmer wrote:
> > >     BTW, has the FSF been as vocal about 
> GNU/FreeBSD?  Not picking on *BSD,
> > > just curious.
> >
> > They probably don't need to be, as GNU/FreeBSD is clear about its
> > implementation.  It's a FreeBSD kernel in combination with the GNU
> > operating system.
>
>And so the official name is Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, to reflect that it doesn't
>contain all of FreeBSD, only the kernel.
>
>BjÃ¶rn Persson
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:45:08 +0930
>From: Tim <ignored_mailbox at yahoo.com.au>
>Subject: Re: compile graphical ssh - GFTP
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <1216167308.17580.1.camel at gonzales.lan.cameratim.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>
>On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 20:33 +0200, wwp wrote:
> > Well, a simple way to crash it: try to connect to a server that will
> > timeout.
>
>Doesn't crash here, I have to reconnect, but that's all.  It doesn't
>seem to recognise that it's disconnected, so when I notice it's dead, I
>have to disconnect then connect.  I seem to recall, with a prior
>version, that if the server timed out, and I subsequently told it to
>send a file, it'd connect then send, automatically.
>
>------------------------------
>Message: 11
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:25:30 +0200
>From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <200807160225.30191.listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="utf-8"
>
>Les Mikesell wrote:
> >    "In 2008, we found that GNU packages made up 15% of the â€œmainâ€
> >    repository of the gNewSense GNU/Linux distribution ...
>...snip...
> >... it â€œLinuxâ€
> >
> > Why not name it something that gives the appropriate credit to the 83.5%
> > that has nothing to do with GNU
>
>Since it's a bit impractical to name a 
>distribution by concatenating the names
>of all the packages it contains, I suggest that the team that maintains a
>distribution should come up with a name for the distribution. That way none
>of the upstream projects would be credited any more or less than any others.
>In this case the distribution could be named "gNewSense" for example. A
>certain other distribution could be named "Fedora". Doesn't that sound like a
>good idea?
>
>BjÃ¶rn Persson
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 12
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:59:20 +0930
>From: Tim <ignored_mailbox at yahoo.com.au>
>Subject: Re: KDE4 groupupdate fails on F9 packagekit
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <1216168160.17580.5.camel at gonzales.lan.cameratim.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>
>On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 21:07 +0530, abhishek rane wrote:
> > I have a slow connection so its not possible to update everything for
> > me. The updates are about 1.1 GB
>
>If you make sure that yum is caching the files, rather than deleting
>them, you should be able to start updating, and carry on updating any
>time you reconnect.
>
>In /etc/yum.conf ensure "keepcache=1".
>
>I gather that yum should keep caching files *until* installing them is
>finished, even without that option being set, but it hasn't been my
>experience.
>
>------------------------------
>Message: 13
>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:30:25 -0300
>From: Alexandre Oliva <aoliva at redhat.com>
>Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
>To: Joe Klemmer <klemmerj at webtrek.com>
>Cc: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <orod4y1xi6.fsf at oliva.athome.lsd.ic.unicamp.br>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>On Jul 15, 2008, Joe Klemmer <klemmerj at webtrek.com> wrote:
>
> > BTW, has the FSF been as vocal about GNU/FreeBSD?
>
>Of course not.  FreeBSD is a complete operating system on its own, it
>was never just a kernel combined with the GNU Operating System.
>
>------------------------------
>Message: 14
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:34:47 +0200
>From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <200807160234.47524.listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="utf-8"
>
>onsdagen den 16 juli 2008 skrev Gordon Messmer:
> > Les Mikesell wrote:
> > > But it is equally ridiculous either way, when 80+% is neither GNU nor
>  ...snip...
> > GNU/Linux is an operating system.  It implements a defined operating
> > system interface.  Linux, by itself, is not an operating system.
>
>I'd like to hear your definition of "operating system". Linus Torvalds calls
>Linux an operating system. He appears to use Andrew Tanenbaum's definition,
>where "operating system" is pretty much synonymous to "kernel". Other people
>have other opinions on what an operating system is.
>
>BjÃ¶rn Persson
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 15
>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:36:14 -0300
>From: Alexandre Oliva <aoliva at redhat.com>
>Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
>To: Gordon Messmer <yinyang at eburg.com>
>Cc: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <ork5fm1x8h.fsf at oliva.athome.lsd.ic.unicamp.br>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>On Jul 15, 2008, Gordon Messmer <yinyang at eburg.com> wrote:
>
> > Linus referred to GNU in the first usenet post that he wrote to
> > comp.os.minix announcing his intention to write what would become
> > Linux.
>
>And then in the 0.01 announcement, still under a non-Free Software
>announcement
>
>http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/old-versions/RELNOTES-0.01
>
>Select quotes (*emphasis* mine)
>
><quote>
>
>                 Notes for *linux* release 0.01
>
>*linux*-0.01.tar.Z      - sources to the *kernel*
>
>This is a free minix-like *kernel* [...]
>
>Sadly, a kernel by itself gets you nowhere. To get a working system you
>need a shell, compilers, a library etc. These are separate parts and may
>be under a stricter (or even looser) copyright. Most of the tools used
>with *linux* are *GNU* software and are under the GNU copyleft. These tools
>aren't in the distribution - ask me (or GNU) for more info.
>
>[...] Happy hacking.
>
></quote>
>
>'nuff said?
>
>------------------------------
>Message: 16
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:07:23 +0930
>From: Tim <ignored_mailbox at yahoo.com.au>
>Subject: Re: RhythmBox wants text/html decoder plugin ??
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <1216168643.17580.9.camel at gonzales.lan.cameratim.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>
>On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 16:14 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > Error messages:
> >
> > "A text/html decoder plugin is required to play this stream, but not
> > installed."
> >
> > I can find no such plugin. Trying to get
> > http://www.cbc.ca/listen/streams/r1_ottawa_32.html
> > working.
>
>Here, I get Totem saying it wants a WMA 8 plugin.  I wonder if you got a
>HTTP error page during the attempt, and it's goofily trying to display
>that?
>
>I can't remember how to stop Totem taking over browser media embedding
>to try another system (beyond the obvious, of yum removing all of
>totem).
>
>------------------------------
>Message: 17
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:41:37 +0200
>From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
>To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list at redhat.com>
>Message-ID: <200807160241.37988.listor3.rombobeorn at tdcpost.se>
>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="utf-8"
>
>Gordon Messmer wrote:
> > GNU/Linux is an operating system.  It implements the interfaces
> > described by POSIX.  Applications written to conform to that ...
>...snip...
> >... It implements no documented standard (and maintains
> > a policy against stable interfaces).  Applications do not run on Linux.
>
>Does Linux not implement the system calls described by POSIX?
>
>BjÃ¶rn Persson
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 18
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:48:46 +0200
>From: wwp <subscript at free.fr>
>Subject: Re: compile graphical ssh - GFTP
>To: fedora-list at redhat.com
>Message-ID: <20080716024846.63d83d08 at free.fr>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Hello Aldo,
>
>
>On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:31:21 -0700 "Aldo Foot" <lunixer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 2008/7/15 wwp <subscript at free.fr>:
> > > Hello Aldo,
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:51:57 -0700 "Aldo Foot" <lunixer at gmail.com> wrote:
>  ...snip...
> > Filezilla is great -untar the thing and it's ready to go.
> > I'll be using this one instead of GFTP.
>
>It's also available as a rpm, I installed it using yum on my F8.
>
>
>Regards,

Maybe we should just refer to the whole GNU/Linux 
thing with a new name, that includes neither 
"GNU" or "Linux".  Call it Everyone's Operating 
System (EOS) or something that is more creative 
than what I can think of right now.  That way, 
everyone can form a picture in their own mind of 
what it means, be it the kernel, the interface, 
the tools, the distribution, or whatever.  It 
separates the "thing" that we all know and love, 
from the politics of it.  That way everyone can be happy...or equally unhappy.

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