trends in fedora

[Bill Davidsen]

Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Russell Strong <russell at strong.id.au> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've just installed Fedora 9 on my laptop, and unfortunately a few things
>> are getting worse in Fedora.
>>
>> Network management has always been awkward on Fedora and with Fedora 9 it's
>> getting much worse.
>>
>> 1. I have always edited the config files directly to get things working.
>>  And still have to ( it's just a straight forward wireless connection ).
> 
> Wireless isn't straightforward in Linux at all, mostly due to hardware issues.
> 
When something works without configuration in the initial release of FC9 and 
stops after a NetworkManager update, I would bet a six pack of good beer that 
hardware isn't the issue.

>> 2. NetworkManager is now the default on install, BUT...
> 
> Wireless was unworkable for me before NetworkManager
> 
>>   2.1 NetworkManager does not give you a wireless connection when no user is
>> logged in.
> 
> I think, while that may be a short coming, it is fairly standard
> between GNU/Linux and Windows (possibly Mac). At least with Linux, you
> can get around that, one day, maybe even using NetworkManager
> 
You can get around it by disabling or even removing NM and setting the network 
code correctly. Or better yet using a script run rc.sysinit. NM just runs way 
too late to be of use.

>>         2.1.1 How am I going to run any network service, NTP, NFS, httpd,
>> etc..... without a network?
> 
> I don't think servers using wireless cards as their primary route is a
> target use case of NetworkManager yet.

Given that the network isn't brought up until the user logs in I don't think 
"server" is at issue here, other than the ones you can't reach. As in mounting 
home files on NFS, as in using LDAP, RADIUS, or Kerberos to validate the login, 
etc, etc. In other words the whole NM concept is wrong, it's "Windows think" 
ported to Linux, ignoring the common case where the computer does something 
useful other than wait for a keystroke.

> For clients, I'm not sure what the idea is for NTP, and using autofs
> to mount your NFS shares will fix this issue.
> 
>>         2.1.2 How am I going to remotely administer my machines?
> 
> Seems like you'll need an init script to setup some default wireless connection
> 
You have that right, but it's the kind of think NM could and should be doing. 
And I don't think autofs is much good when you have no network until you log in. :-(

>>   2.2 NetworkManager does not give you the ability to configure system wide
>> networking services or policy.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean here, so I withhold comments
> 
The network is not a user resource, it is a system resource (in most cases). 
Setting up the network should be an administrative thing. NM was designed for 
Joe Hacker, who is competent, to be able to configure the network. Think Suzie 
Smallbiz, who provides these to sales critters and management, and want IT to be 
the only part of the organization toughing the network settings. Think corporate 
VPN, etc.

NM should be usable from the boot rc files (easily) and available only under 
controlled access to the rest of the users.

>>   2.3 NetworkManager does not have any decent documentation.
> 
> Fair problem
> 
>> 3. Try using WPA and DHCP at the same time.It's never worked in this or
>> any previous Fedora.  Yes, NM will do it, but that's no good because of the
>> previously stated problems.
> 
> Here, I suggest you try to work closesly with the NetworkManager devs
> to solve the problems you have with it, as NM is meant to solve
> problems like this.
> 
See above, I can't say it won't, but I do say I believe it's the wrong problem, 
and NM sould be easily (and usually) used as a configured system resource, not 
restricted to user use by lack of interface (or documentation).

>> the network service won't do it because it
>> tries to run DHCP immediately after bringing up the interfaces...It SHOULD
>> wait until wpa_supplicant has run and the interface is available for traffic
>> before kicking off DHCP...
> 
> Again, I don't think that servers using wifi+dhpc without a logged in
> user is as yet a target use case for NM. If you can suggest tweaks to
> the devs, maybe they can implement them for you
> 
See above, these aren't servers.


-- 
Bill Davidsen <davidsen at tmr.com>
   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot