From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jul 4 14:19:54 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD Message-ID: So there's been a fair bit of email back and forth, but nothing's really "caught" yet, it seems. So let me sum up where I think we are: We've got a handful of people with code. Here's the summary, as I see it: a. Rookery, by Steve Grubb. Intended for building distros in general, but also has a tool for building a LiveCD in particular. b. Stateless Linux plus mklivecd, by Alex Larsson. Falls out of the Stateless Linux work that Red Hat R&D was doing, but is now in stasis, I believe. c. ADIOS, by Neville Richter. So I think it's time to pick at least one of these platforms and "get a move on". Unless I hear MASSIVE DISAGREEMENT :) here's the way I'd like to proceed: 1. GET CODE INTO CVS. If you want your solution to be considered, ack the list, and we'll make sure that you've got a place to put your code. I'll work with Elliott (guru of Fedora CVS) to make sure that we have modules in CVS for all of this code. 2. WEEKLY MEETING. A mailing list is good, but it's not very high bandwidth, and when we need to debate about something, IRC is much quicker. Therefore, I propose: a. DATE/TIME. Always hard to get global meeting times that work for all. I've seen the most traffic from US and Australia, so I propose as the first meeting time: THURSDAY JULY 7, 23:00 GMT. Which is: THURSDAY JULY 7, 19:00 Eastern US. Which is: FRIDAY JULY 8, 09:00 Eastern Australia. b. VENUE. #fedora-livecd on freenode. c. FREQUENCY. Weekly or bi-weekly, depending -- but for now, let's just have the first one first and see how it goes. :) 3. WIKI. We've got wiki space available to us on fedoraproject.org. When the time comes, we'll need something, and this wiki is being well-used for the Extras and Docs projects. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From darko.ilic at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 11:05:52 2005 From: darko.ilic at gmail.com (Darko Ilic) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:05:52 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> Hello, My name is Darko Ilic, I`m a Summer of Code (http://code.google.com/summerofcode.html) participant working on the Fedora Live CD generator project. Elliott allready mentioned that I will join you, and here I am. Here is a description of the project I`ve submitted: ********************************************* Project title: ????????Toolkit for Fedora Live CD/DVD generation Synopsis: ????????The toolkit would include three separate tools: ???????? - a tool for generating config files that hold the list of packages that should be included in Live CD distribution (in kickstart-like format), ???????? - a tool that installs specified packages in the specified directory (and also check dependencies), ???????? - a tool that makes bootable iso image out of that directory Benefits to the Community ???????? - The toolkit could be used at the Fedora Project for generation of official Live CDs/DVDs. Once the config files for different-purpose Live CDs are made (for example: Office Live CD, Workstation Live CD, Live DVD ...), they could be used for every Fedora Core edition, and Live CDs could be automatically generated. ???????? - The toolkit could be also used by 3rd party companies for Fedora-based live CDs creation (but with addition of some software not included in Fedora Core) ???????? - Fedora users could use the toolkit for custom Fedora Live CD generation. Every Fedora user could put his favorite Fedora installation on the Live CD or DVD, and take the full advantage of Live CD technology. Fedora users could also use their working Fedora systems to make Live CDs out of them. Project Details ????????The purpose of the toolkit is to create Live CD/DVD distributions out of Fedora Core installable tree. It would be composed of three separate tools: ???????? 1. A tool that would be used for config file generation. Config file would hold the list of packages that should be included in Live CD distribution. Config file would be in kickstart-like format, for compatibility and consistency reasons. Keeping this file format would allow skiping this step, and using some existing kickstart file. The tool itself would be a wizard style application with nice user interface (both GUI and console based, like anaconda). It would allow user to browse trough the groups of packages and to select individual packages or groups of packages. It would provide information of expected iso image size so the user could include/exclude packages to make iso image fit the desired media. ????????I would write this tool using anaconda code base because the majority of code is allready included in anaconda. Additionally, I would consider Kickstart Configurator and maybe some other kickstart configuration utility, if such exist. ????????2. A simple tool that takes config file with the list of packages, check dependencies, and use Fedora Core installable tree to install packages in the target directory. It would be realized as a shell script, so it would be possible to run it automatically (with cron, for example). ????????3. A tool that makes bootable iso image out of the directory holding Fedora Core installed system. It could be used both with the running Fedora installation and with the installation created using previously described tool. It would have to modify init scripts and some other config files, to modify an initrd image, to compress the data and also to include some other software that would be needed. After all, it would have to create bootable iso image. ????????This tool would be also realized as a shell script, so it would be possible to run it automatically (with cron, for example). I would consider the mklivecd tool from the readonly-root package, and possibly take it as my start-point, because it`s purpose is quite similar. ????????Some of the features that created Live CD would have: ???????? - automatic hardware detection (existing Fedora feature, but should be mentioned because it`s very important) ???????? - using local storage devices (hard disks, usb storage devices) for storing/restoring settings and home directory ???????? - installing a basic Fedora system on the local computer, that could be further supplemented with the online repositories like any regular installation ????????Technologies to be used: ???????? - Python (and maybe BASH) would be used for programming ("Using the Python scripting language for the majority of code allows for easy distribution of updates and the quick development of new features") ???????? - syslinux or isolinux (http://syslinux.zytor.com/) for booting the system ???????? - Zisofs, Cloop or Squashfs for image compression (benchmark tests at http://kerneltrap.org/files/PERFORMANCE.README.txt show that SquashFS is the fastest, but I will also consider other aspects before making choice) ???????? - tmpfs for storing changes made to system in memory ********************************************* So, more or less, it`s something you were talking about here. I`ve allready started, and I`ll work very hard during the hole summer, `cause I have to finish the project before the 1st of September. It`s great that you are here, so I can bother you with my questions :) The first, and the most important question is what should be used for starting point ( Rookery, mklivecd, ADIOS). Greg allready asked, so I`ll wait to hear your oppinion. I tought that mklivecd should be my starting point because it comes from RH, but I`ll also consider the other two projects. I`ll try to gather as much information as I can till the thursday night, so we can discuss them on the meeting (I`m in GMT+1 so I`m fine with 23:00 GMT). See you, Darko (spells like donnie darko) From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Jul 5 11:16:00 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:46:00 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD In-Reply-To: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> References: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> Message-ID: <42CA6BF0.10803@redhat.com> Hi > - syslinux or isolinux (http://syslinux.zytor.com/) for booting the >system > - Zisofs, Cloop or Squashfs for image compression (benchmark tests at >http://kerneltrap.org/files/PERFORMANCE.README.txt show that SquashFS is the >fastest, but I will also consider other aspects before making choice) > - tmpfs for storing changes made to system in memory > > > Welcome. Great to see some action here finally. I would suggest using squashfs here. The performance and compression seems to be better and the maintainer has submitted the code to the upstream kernel for inclusion. regards Rahul From tp at alternativ.net Tue Jul 5 11:48:51 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:48:51 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD In-Reply-To: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> References: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120564131.3768.9.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Dienstag, den 05.07.2005, 13:05 +0200 schrieb Darko Ilic: > My name is Darko Ilic, I`m a Summer of Code Hi Darko, this sounds perfect for my needs. I have started plaing a Fedora based DVD featuring GNOME 2.12 (when its ready) and a lot free media (videos, books, audio, images). Currently I have planned this as primary for german speaking people, but I will share my thoughts and data. I would like to test your system at some point. My project is named NINOG (in german: http://netzpolitik.org/wiki/index.php/NINOG ) btw: A question came to my mind: If I understand things correct something like you do can also be useful for virtualisation like Xen, because there one also has to set up a full running linux, except that one does not need to burn an iso. Maybe then there can be also soem cooperation as your tool could potentially in the future also me used as a generator for a virtual linux (maybe after you have completed your primary tasks) ? good luck for your efforts! thilo, germany -- blog: http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From darko.ilic at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 12:15:31 2005 From: darko.ilic at gmail.com (Darko Ilic) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:15:31 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD In-Reply-To: <42CA6BF0.10803@redhat.com> References: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <42CA6BF0.10803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200507051415.31781.darko.ilic@gmail.com> On Tuesday 05 July 2005 13:16, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Welcome. Great to see some action here finally. I would suggest using > squashfs here. The performance and compression seems to be better and > the maintainer has submitted the code to the upstream kernel for inclusion. And what about UnionFS? Is there any information about unionFS going to the upstream kernel? I think it would be great to use this two things for the project.. Darko From sgrubb at redhat.com Tue Jul 5 12:19:27 2005 From: sgrubb at redhat.com (Steve Grubb) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:19:27 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD In-Reply-To: <200507051415.31781.darko.ilic@gmail.com> References: <42CA6BF0.10803@redhat.com> <200507051415.31781.darko.ilic@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200507050819.27190.sgrubb@redhat.com> On Tuesday 05 July 2005 08:15, Darko Ilic wrote: > And what about UnionFS? Is there any information about unionFS going to the > upstream kernel? It won't be anytime soon. We should focus on the technologies that are currently available or we'll never get out of the gate. -Steve From darko.ilic at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 12:33:01 2005 From: darko.ilic at gmail.com (Darko Ilic) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:33:01 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD In-Reply-To: <1120564131.3768.9.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <1120564131.3768.9.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <200507051433.01844.darko.ilic@gmail.com> On Tuesday 05 July 2005 13:48, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Maybe then there can be also soem > cooperation as your tool could potentially in the future also me used as > a generator for a virtual linux (maybe after you have completed your > primary tasks) ? I`ll consider your suggestion, thanks for giving it. And yeah, it`s very cool to hear something like "this sounds perfect for my needs" :) Darko From sgrubb at redhat.com Tue Jul 5 13:01:45 2005 From: sgrubb at redhat.com (Steve Grubb) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:01:45 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD In-Reply-To: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> References: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200507050901.45673.sgrubb@redhat.com> On Tuesday 05 July 2005 07:05, Darko Ilic wrote: > ????????The toolkit would include three separate tools: > ???????? - a tool for generating config files that hold the list of > packages that should be included in Live CD distribution (in kickstart-like > format), - a tool that installs specified packages in the specified > directory (and also check dependencies), > ???????? - a tool that makes bootable iso image out of that directory Hello, I've created the rookery build system which does the above. I'd like to go over some things that I've learned along the way. 1) Package selection: where would the initial list come from? Do the rpms need to be on the machine or can yum fetch them? Do you want to have any filters to quickly weed out packages like devel? Can missing dependencies be found at this stage? 2) Installation: The technique employed by the rookery is to use dd to create a file of the right size and then mount it via loopback. What fs options are available here? ext3, ext2? The other problem is what can be jettisoned to bring the size down? I usually dump all the language translations. It wastes a lot of precious space. This would need to be user selectable. It is really important for us to find things that can be deleted to bring the size down. 3) image inspection. Usually people want to stop after image creation and hand tune things. Maybe they want to add pam options, tighten security, set IP Tables config, etc. 4) The big item...does it boot? Assuming all the above goes well, this is where people usually have problems. There are modifications necessary for the init scripts. You either need an overlay file system or a tmpfs for all directories that are writable. Should the CD automatically look at floppy or usb for saved session/override data? Should it utilize any swap partition on the hard disk should it find one? 5) Once up and running, can users have yum install more packages? syslog should be modified so that its a fifo keeping only 32k of data. Other things that log need similar customizations. 6) Shutdown, how do you export data on the way down? Should it eject the CD? Besides exporting data, does it really need to do anything on the way down? The rookery system does a lot of this already. I'm sure some of the other projects could help flesh out the above issues. I see this project having a lot of parellism. Somebody can be working on package selection and someone else working on booting without interfering with each other. Maybe what we need is to draw up a document that breaks the project out into all these steps, fill in the concerns/requirements/strategies, and let people dive into the various chunks. -Steve From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Jul 5 13:16:11 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:46:11 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD In-Reply-To: <200507050901.45673.sgrubb@redhat.com> References: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507050901.45673.sgrubb@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42CA881B.2080306@redhat.com> Hi > I see this project having a >lot of parellism. Somebody can be working on package selection and someone >else working on booting without interfering with each other. > >Maybe what we need is to draw up a document that breaks the project out into >all these steps, fill in the concerns/requirements/strategies, and let people >dive into the various chunks. > >-Steve > Good idea. Start adding more information here http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jul 5 13:16:43 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 09:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD In-Reply-To: <200507050901.45673.sgrubb@redhat.com> References: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507050901.45673.sgrubb@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Steve Grubb wrote: > On Tuesday 05 July 2005 07:05, Darko Ilic wrote: > > ????????The toolkit would include three separate tools: > > ???????? - a tool for generating config files that hold the list of > > packages that should be included in Live CD distribution (in kickstart-like > > format), - a tool that installs specified packages in the specified > > directory (and also check dependencies), > > ???????? - a tool that makes bootable iso image out of that directory > > Hello, > > I've created the rookery build system which does the above. I'd like to go > over some things that I've learned along the way. > > 1) Package selection: where would the initial list come from? Do the > rpms need to be on the machine or can yum fetch them? Do you want to > have any filters to quickly weed out packages like devel? Can missing > dependencies be found at this stage? > > 2) Installation: The technique employed by the rookery is to use dd to create > a file of the right size and then mount it via loopback. What fs options are > available here? ext3, ext2? The other problem is what can be jettisoned to > bring the size down? I usually dump all the language translations. It wastes > a lot of precious space. This would need to be user selectable. It is really > important for us to find things that can be deleted to bring the size down. > > 3) image inspection. Usually people want to stop after image creation > and hand tune things. Maybe they want to add pam options, tighten > security, set IP Tables config, etc. > > 4) The big item...does it boot? Assuming all the above goes well, this is > where people usually have problems. There are modifications necessary for the > init scripts. You either need an overlay file system or a tmpfs for all > directories that are writable. Should the CD automatically look at floppy or > usb for saved session/override data? Should it utilize any swap partition on > the hard disk should it find one? > > 5) Once up and running, can users have yum install more packages? syslog > should be modified so that its a fifo keeping only 32k of data. Other things > that log need similar customizations. > > 6) Shutdown, how do you export data on the way down? Should it eject the CD? > Besides exporting data, does it really need to do anything on the way down? > > The rookery system does a lot of this already. I'm sure some of the other > projects could help flesh out the above issues. I see this project having a > lot of parellism. Somebody can be working on package selection and someone > else working on booting without interfering with each other. > > Maybe what we need is to draw up a document that breaks the project out into > all these steps, fill in the concerns/requirements/strategies, and let people > dive into the various chunks. Looks like you've just started it. :) My guess: in the IRC meeting this week (which I hope everyone can attend, since almost no one has acked or nacked, hint hint) we begin this discussion in earnest. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jul 5 17:24:26 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] IRC channel on freenode In-Reply-To: <42CA881B.2080306@redhat.com> References: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507050901.45673.sgrubb@redhat.com> <42CA881B.2080306@redhat.com> Message-ID: #fedora-livecd Y'all come and see me. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > I see this project having a > >lot of parellism. Somebody can be working on package selection and someone > >else working on booting without interfering with each other. > > > >Maybe what we need is to draw up a document that breaks the project out into > >all these steps, fill in the concerns/requirements/strategies, and let people > >dive into the various chunks. > > > >-Steve > > > Good idea. Start adding more information here > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD > > regards > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-livecd-list mailing list > Fedora-livecd-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-livecd-list > From tp at alternativ.net Wed Jul 6 10:20:51 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:20:51 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD In-Reply-To: <42CA881B.2080306@redhat.com> References: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507050901.45673.sgrubb@redhat.com> <42CA881B.2080306@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1120645251.2776.0.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Dienstag, den 05.07.2005, 18:46 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > Good idea. Start adding more information here > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD > as registered member: Immutable Page -- blog: http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Jul 6 10:29:55 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 15:59:55 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Moving forward with Fedora LiveCD In-Reply-To: <1120645251.2776.0.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <200507051305.52847.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507050901.45673.sgrubb@redhat.com> <42CA881B.2080306@redhat.com> <1120645251.2776.0.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <42CBB2A3.6070705@redhat.com> Thilo Pfennig wrote: > >as registered member: > >Immutable Page > > > You need to be added to the edit group. I have added "ThiloPfennig" now. If others would like to add more information there, register and let me know your username offlist. regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jul 7 21:02:49 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Reminder: Kickoff meeting on #fedora-livecd today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: THURSDAY JULY 7, 23:00 GMT THURSDAY JULY 7, 19:00 Eastern US FRIDAY JULY 8, 09:00 Eastern Australia Hope to see many of you there. We will be choosing the technology starting point for the Fedora Live CD project. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > So there's been a fair bit of email back and forth, but nothing's really > "caught" yet, it seems. So let me sum up where I think we are: > > We've got a handful of people with code. Here's the summary, as I see it: > > a. Rookery, by Steve Grubb. Intended for building distros in general, > but also has a tool for building a LiveCD in particular. > b. Stateless Linux plus mklivecd, by Alex Larsson. Falls out of the > Stateless Linux work that Red Hat R&D was doing, but is now in > stasis, I believe. > c. ADIOS, by Neville Richter. > > So I think it's time to pick at least one of these platforms and "get a > move on". Unless I hear MASSIVE DISAGREEMENT :) here's the way I'd like > to proceed: > > 1. GET CODE INTO CVS. If you want your solution to be considered, ack the > list, and we'll make sure that you've got a place to put your code. I'll > work with Elliott (guru of Fedora CVS) to make sure that we have modules > in CVS for all of this code. > > 2. WEEKLY MEETING. A mailing list is good, but it's not very high > bandwidth, and when we need to debate about something, IRC is much > quicker. Therefore, I propose: > > a. DATE/TIME. Always hard to get global meeting times that work for > all. I've seen the most traffic from US and Australia, so I propose > as the first meeting time: > > > c. FREQUENCY. Weekly or bi-weekly, depending -- but for now, let's > just have the first one first and see how it goes. :) > > 3. WIKI. We've got wiki space available to us on fedoraproject.org. When > the time comes, we'll need something, and this wiki is being well-used for > the Extras and Docs projects. > > --g > > _____________________ ____________________________________________ > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > From gdk at redhat.com Fri Jul 8 00:34:06 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:34:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Transcript from today's meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to those who participated. Transcript is attached. Note: future meetings will take place at 14:00 GMT on Wednesdays. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan -------------- next part -------------- Jul 07 19:03:17 Okey doke. Not many, but enough to start, I think. We'll see if other people filter in. Jul 07 19:03:29 So, darko: what are you thinking so far? Jul 07 19:04:17 well, I`ve just downloaded rookery.. Jul 07 19:04:30 Had a chance to play with it yet? Jul 07 19:04:36 want to try it a bit and to see if I like it for starting point Jul 07 19:04:44 OK. Jul 07 19:05:10 I`ve tried to setup stateless, but it seems it doesnt work on fc4 Jul 07 19:05:13 So to make the goal clear: we're shooting for an application that allows anyone to make their own LiveCD, with their own content, as easily as possible. We all get that? Jul 07 19:05:26 a lot of things aren't working with FC4 Jul 07 19:05:27 Yeah, stateless decay doesn't surprise me... no one has been working on it for a few months. Jul 07 19:06:17 darkoilic: Have you already done LiveCD stuff? Jul 07 19:06:19 my primary goal is to provide a tool that can be used for Fedora official live CDs Jul 07 19:06:26 --> sgrubb (~sgrubb at pool-70-19-234-48.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #fedora-livecd Jul 07 19:06:36 Ah, we have a steve. Jul 07 19:06:38 no, I haven`t Jul 07 19:06:45 hello Jul 07 19:06:49 hi Jul 07 19:06:56 greetings! Jul 07 19:07:33 sgrubb, darko is playing with rookery now. Jul 07 19:07:49 And apparently stateless stuff isn't working with fc4... Jul 07 19:08:05 cool. Let me know if there's anything I can help with Jul 07 19:08:07 ...which kinda takes that out of the running straightaway, if that's the case. Jul 07 19:08:31 The other possibility we have is the ADIOS stuff by Neville, but he doesn't appear to be joining us. :) Jul 07 19:08:47 I was hoping he would Jul 07 19:09:03 perhaps he's teaching a class... it's still early "down under" Jul 07 19:09:03 He is from australia, right? Jul 07 19:09:09 Yes, he is. Jul 07 19:09:14 or NZ Jul 07 19:09:17 is a bit early there Jul 07 19:09:35 maybe he is still drinking his morning coffie Jul 07 19:09:39 But he never responded to the email (at least that I saw). And we need a decision so that darko in particular can get started. Jul 07 19:09:54 Since his google clock is ticking. ;-) Jul 07 19:10:08 Adios has a LOT of really good ideas Jul 07 19:10:12 it's worth a look Jul 07 19:10:15 Can you summarize them? Jul 07 19:10:34 Neville has put a lot of load options into it Jul 07 19:10:48 so you can tailor the performance to the type of machine you're running Jul 07 19:11:17 there is a lot of good container handling in it that could apply here Jul 07 19:11:20 It uses squashfs too, right? Jul 07 19:11:29 yes Jul 07 19:11:30 yup Jul 07 19:11:42 he also embeds UML... which is very interesting Jul 07 19:11:52 but I'm not sure it's a generic enough feature for this project Jul 07 19:11:55 So since that appears to be on its way to acceptance upstream, we're agreed that we'll use squashfs? Jul 07 19:12:11 I thought it was accepoted and in 2.6.12 Jul 07 19:12:17 compared to cloop and mkisofs, it's far superios Jul 07 19:12:19 superior Jul 07 19:12:24 Oh, okay. Jul 07 19:12:31 * gregdek_home is behind on his reading then. :) Jul 07 19:12:32 cloop was a no go in my book Jul 07 19:12:52 I saw some selinux policies for squashfs in the last update... so I think it is in the new kernel Jul 07 19:13:05 I think we need to stay close to the real distribution and not get too far away from it Jul 07 19:13:13 Agreed. Jul 07 19:13:17 right Jul 07 19:13:54 The file system is a minor issue to me Jul 07 19:13:57 So Steve, any hints? Do you have a laundry list of "issues I'd attack with rookery if only I had the time"? Jul 07 19:14:07 We really need to figure out how to get the size down Jul 07 19:14:19 OK. Some ideas that seemed to bubble up: Jul 07 19:14:38 * Stripping out languages. Jul 07 19:14:50 big win there Jul 07 19:14:59 I know that knoppix makes different images per language. Jul 07 19:15:22 What's that entail? Just pulling po files before building? Jul 07 19:15:26 I put several things in rookery to try to lower size Jul 07 19:15:29 you mean the locale and TZ stuff from glibc? Jul 07 19:15:50 I'm looking Jul 07 19:16:01 Well, it's mostly that language support blows up the size of each individual package, right? Jul 07 19:16:31 the locale and TZ stuff was about 100 megs in RH9 Jul 07 19:16:51 in livecd_3_finalize I pull out /usr/share/locale/ most languages Jul 07 19:16:57 I stripped it out after I created the image in the little builder I made Jul 07 19:17:32 How tough would it be to allow easy selection of which languages to pull out at build time? Jul 07 19:17:48 should be simple Jul 07 19:18:06 darkoilic: You following? Jul 07 19:18:11 yup Jul 07 19:18:26 K. sgrubb: What other big things on the list? Jul 07 19:18:40 package selection Jul 07 19:19:01 someone may want gnome only or server only Jul 07 19:19:21 Is the issue walking the dep tree> Jul 07 19:19:21 ? Jul 07 19:19:22 should be a way to suggest missing packages Jul 07 19:19:36 yes Jul 07 19:19:42 yum handles that Jul 07 19:19:46 There are missing dependencies too Jul 07 19:19:50 are we not talking builds from repositories? Jul 07 19:19:50 Indeed it does. Jul 07 19:19:58 Well, kinda. Jul 07 19:20:10 deps are solved in rookery, right? Jul 07 19:20:13 I know that anaconda is being reworked to use the depsolving code from yum... Jul 07 19:20:25 there's really 2 phases. Build packages and build livecd Jul 07 19:20:40 some people want to build their own, some don''t Jul 07 19:20:54 rookery does have a way to find build dependencies Jul 07 19:21:06 build packages? Jul 07 19:21:14 I have a large patch to correct many dependency issues Jul 07 19:21:19 * gregdek_home thinks a sec... Jul 07 19:21:38 but, I was working on way to get some of the missing dependencies caused by shell scripts Jul 07 19:21:51 OK, so the packages that are built for a Live CD. Are they fundamentally different than a package that you just install on a standard FC box? Jul 07 19:22:01 rpm does not count shell script when doing provides Jul 07 19:22:13 you mean pre-install scripts? Jul 07 19:22:16 doesn't have to be Jul 07 19:22:32 In theory, you should be able to use FC4 repo Jul 07 19:22:38 OK. Jul 07 19:22:47 So that's probably the place to start, I would think. Jul 07 19:22:50 I`ll try that tomorrow Jul 07 19:22:59 Simple selection of pre-built packages. Jul 07 19:23:00 If it would be easier, we can pull the livecd stuff out of rookery Jul 07 19:23:32 Does the livecd stuff not require rookery? Jul 07 19:23:34 and separate them so we don't get hung up on building Jul 07 19:23:51 not really. I added the two as convenience Jul 07 19:23:56 Ah, ok. Jul 07 19:24:03 To use the same front-end? Jul 07 19:24:31 No. Nalin said nothing serious should be created with dialog Jul 07 19:24:43 Ha! OK. Jul 07 19:24:46 It doesn't understand i18n Jul 07 19:25:06 Grubb, how many changes you have made to linux4all scripts when creating your livecd scripts? Jul 07 19:25:21 not a whole lot Jul 07 19:25:35 Ah. Jul 07 19:25:38 I have solidified the proceedure Jul 07 19:25:50 So this is from the linux4all.de stuff originally, then? Jul 07 19:25:52 It was mostlyundocumented Jul 07 19:25:59 yes Jul 07 19:26:01 Gotcha. Jul 07 19:26:09 I know :) Jul 07 19:26:12 I can say that it works Jul 07 19:26:30 OK. So: package selection. Jul 07 19:26:31 Dirk should really be part of this Jul 07 19:26:36 Yes, he should. Jul 07 19:26:51 I sent him a note a few months back and never got a reply. Do you have more direct contact with him? Jul 07 19:27:09 He has several email addresses Jul 07 19:27:15 I can try Jul 07 19:27:17 Does he check any of them? :) Jul 07 19:27:48 I think sometime the mail sever routes them to /dev/null Jul 07 19:27:59 He's clearly looking for a new host, too, from what it says on the site. Jul 07 19:27:59 seriously Jul 07 19:28:14 he was getting it from his employer Jul 07 19:28:20 ??? Jul 07 19:28:23 maybe thats what changed Jul 07 19:28:37 he worked for isp Jul 07 19:28:39 Well, let's make every attempt to drag him in asap. Jul 07 19:29:10 So: package selection. Jul 07 19:29:26 What are the issues? Is it currently just a pain to get a happy set? Jul 07 19:29:34 The only issue I had with Dirk's work was that he broke the technique into too many steps. Jul 07 19:29:52 gotta go... have good evening Jul 07 19:29:58 <-- tlisjac has quit ("Leaving") Jul 07 19:30:02 Bye, tom. :) Jul 07 19:30:05 The scripts in the rookery that really count are in /opt/livecd/scripts Jul 07 19:30:27 it breaks it into 3 steps Jul 07 19:31:00 someone could create a package selection & config script in python without affecting the scripts here Jul 07 19:31:21 step 1 was getting the image created Jul 07 19:31:38 step 2 is installing the packages...which is tricky Jul 07 19:31:54 I have some ideas about how to make that better Jul 07 19:32:12 right now it copies all packagesd into image Jul 07 19:32:19 and then does chroot install Jul 07 19:32:35 it could mount another oartition Jul 07 19:32:48 and read packages from there Jul 07 19:33:04 So how should the python script work? "Pick your packages, and then click 'resolve!'" And, "these packages require these other 10 packages!" Or, "these packages work fine!" Jul 07 19:33:11 The biggest problem is what to do when you run out of space Jul 07 19:33:34 gregdek, I would suggest making it like anaconda Jul 07 19:34:14 I think rookery does test also Jul 07 19:34:19 What does anaconda do? I usually just install groups -- seldom do individual package selection in anaconda... Jul 07 19:34:36 I always do custom install from anaconda Jul 07 19:35:05 And what happens if you pick packages that have missing deps? Jul 07 19:35:11 I think rpm -ivh --test Jul 07 19:35:58 The pythin script should write to config file Jul 07 19:36:19 Then one of these other scripts can pickup the config and do the install Jul 07 19:36:43 darkoilic: making sense to you? Jul 07 19:36:51 yes Jul 07 19:37:18 actualy, it is something like I was intended to do Jul 07 19:37:25 in /opt/livecd-devl/conf Jul 07 19:37:34 Cool. Jul 07 19:37:38 is buildroot.config Jul 07 19:37:55 This is what needs to be filled in Jul 07 19:38:34 language selection would be new Jul 07 19:39:08 we can rename some of these vars Jul 07 19:39:18 but anyways it would be a starting point Jul 07 19:39:20 So the big issues so far: Jul 07 19:39:43 1. Strip down size by stripping out languages, allowing selectable locales; Jul 07 19:40:02 2. Package selection script to build out the buildroot.config properly. Jul 07 19:40:08 That about it to start? Jul 07 19:40:22 pretty much Jul 07 19:40:30 I'd do the config part first Jul 07 19:40:53 The scripts in rookery are good enough to start with Jul 07 19:41:05 I wanted to use anaconda code base to create anaconda-like app for package selection Jul 07 19:41:15 in terms of doing the actual moving around of files Jul 07 19:41:25 And then there's the question of where the code lives. Jul 07 19:41:38 darkoilic, that would be good. This makes people feel comfortable Jul 07 19:41:50 in what way? Jul 07 19:41:56 cvs? Jul 07 19:41:59 Yep. Jul 07 19:42:00 directory? Jul 07 19:42:14 We just need to get cvs set up, I think. Jul 07 19:42:28 I've talked to Sopwith about that, but it may take him a bit to get everything set up. Jul 07 19:42:50 In the meantime, I suppose we can do without it for a little while...? Jul 07 19:42:57 sure Jul 07 19:43:00 fine by me Jul 07 19:43:09 I promise not to do any pythin Jul 07 19:43:14 :) Jul 07 19:43:20 Heh. Jul 07 19:43:28 darkoilic: Got enough to start? Jul 07 19:43:31 I read somewere that you really don`t like it... Jul 07 19:44:05 well you can only learn so many languages and they start bluring... Jul 07 19:44:12 jython! Jul 07 19:44:19 well, I had a bit different plan, but I can chage it.. Jul 07 19:44:23 *Literally* blurring! Jul 07 19:44:38 darkoilic: What was your plan? Jul 07 19:45:11 I wanted to manualy create livecd, and then to write scripts that would do the same job Jul 07 19:45:24 so, i wanted do solve some other problems first Jul 07 19:45:33 like rw stuff Jul 07 19:45:38 init changes Jul 07 19:45:41 etc Jul 07 19:46:13 Have you already started much down that path? Jul 07 19:46:53 Well, like I said, I had problems getting stateles to work.. Jul 07 19:47:04 now I`m looking at rookery Jul 07 19:47:06 Ah, ok. Jul 07 19:47:23 and I`ll install fc3 tomorrow to make stateless work Jul 07 19:47:32 darkoilic, There's really 5 stages Jul 07 19:47:35 1) config Jul 07 19:47:40 2) make image Jul 07 19:47:45 3) install Jul 07 19:47:51 5) finalize Jul 07 19:47:59 5) boot Jul 07 19:48:13 each have separate problems Jul 07 19:48:23 yes Jul 07 19:48:32 you can do 1,2,3&4 and still have the fun of boot Jul 07 19:48:58 2 & 3 I think I have working Jul 07 19:49:03 yes, you are right Jul 07 19:49:09 & 4 Jul 07 19:49:20 excpet for languages Jul 07 19:49:32 so, I should start with 1 Jul 07 19:49:35 Some of the fun stuff you are talking about is step 5 Jul 07 19:49:35 python Jul 07 19:49:58 I personally think that would be good Jul 07 19:50:10 We could use my stuff as is for 2,3,4 Jul 07 19:50:10 yes, I think you are right Jul 07 19:50:15 darkoilic: Do you blog, by any chance? Jul 07 19:50:22 no Jul 07 19:50:23 That takes us all the way to boot Jul 07 19:50:30 quickly Jul 07 19:50:40 That is where the hard problems are Jul 07 19:51:01 but that`s the interesting part Jul 07 19:51:12 Heh. Jul 07 19:51:12 for me.. Jul 07 19:51:12 BTW, do you have re-writable CD Jul 07 19:51:20 yup Jul 07 19:51:43 good. Debugging gets expensive with normal CDs Jul 07 19:51:53 not a problem Jul 07 19:52:22 OK. Sounds like you're ready to run. Jul 07 19:52:50 Is this kind of scheduled irc meet useful? Jul 07 19:53:02 I think so Jul 07 19:53:13 yes, I think Jul 07 19:53:23 If we can get hold of Dirk, that'd be even better. Jul 07 19:53:35 I'll track him down Jul 07 19:53:47 Is there another time that suits? Doesn't look like we've had any Aussie participation... Jul 07 19:53:50 He had another interesting problem solved Jul 07 19:54:08 I like earlier Jul 07 19:54:15 darko, how about you? Jul 07 19:54:21 I`m in GMT+2 Jul 07 19:54:33 so, it`s 2AM now Jul 07 19:54:46 Heh. So yes, earlier is better for you too, I would guess. :) Jul 07 19:54:47 I could earlier, but not later Jul 07 19:54:56 yes Jul 07 19:55:20 So how's 15:00 GMT? Jul 07 19:55:23 5pm gmt might be nice Jul 07 19:55:32 Oh, yeah. Jul 07 19:55:37 both are fine by me Jul 07 19:56:00 5pm gmt would be right after lunch Jul 07 19:56:23 On Thursday, that conflicts with fedora-extras. Jul 07 19:56:51 what else is good Jul 07 19:57:02 * gregdek_home goes to look at worldclock... timezones make my head hurt :) Jul 07 19:57:32 darkoilic: Where are you, exactly? Jul 07 19:57:44 Serbia and Montenegro Jul 07 19:57:55 Former yugoslavia Jul 07 19:58:08 ring any bells ? :) Jul 07 19:58:21 Americans aren't so good at geography. :) Jul 07 19:58:26 Belgrade in your TZ? Jul 07 19:58:30 yes Jul 07 19:59:51 OK! 10am Eastern US time = 4pm CET = 1400 GMT! Jul 07 19:59:51 How's that? Jul 07 20:00:06 On Thursdays? Jul 07 20:00:18 everything you say Jul 07 20:00:55 And grubb, what is the interesting problem that you have mentioned? Jul 07 20:01:21 getting the gui to work. :) Jul 07 20:01:44 Dammit. Grr. Jul 07 20:01:44 gui for what? Jul 07 20:01:44 I think it has to do with reducing the image size Jul 07 20:01:58 so that enough libraries fit Jul 07 20:02:01 How's Wednesday 1400 GMT instead of Thursday? Jul 07 20:02:10 fine :) Jul 07 20:02:16 sure] Jul 07 20:02:41 The gui I'm talking about is gnome Jul 07 20:02:55 xfce :) Jul 07 20:02:59 I only needed server implementation Jul 07 20:03:16 that what I wonder Jul 07 20:03:24 gnome is huge Jul 07 20:03:32 I know Jul 07 20:03:39 How does gnome manage with the gnome livecd? Jul 07 20:03:58 For Dirk, it works fine Jul 07 20:04:56 well, I need to get going... Jul 07 20:05:02 I think we're done. Jul 07 20:05:09 OK, yes Jul 07 20:05:15 I'm around on #audit on freenode if something comes up Jul 07 20:05:21 Thanks, darko. Holler if you need help. :) Jul 07 20:05:30 thanks a lot Jul 07 20:05:35 see ya From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jul 13 13:52:46 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:52:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Reminder: Meeting on #fedora-livecd today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In, like, 10 minutes. :) Wednesdays, 14:00 GMT. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jul 13 16:13:57 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:13:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Meeting minutes, 13 July 2005 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Attached. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan -------------- next part -------------- Jul 13 10:02:51 OK, looks like we've got a quorum. Jul 13 10:02:54 :) Jul 13 10:03:01 dwestfal: Introduce yourself. Jul 13 10:03:38 Hi, my Name is Dirk Westfal, I`m working as a network admin at a gonvernment related company in ffm/germany Jul 13 10:03:51 hi dirk, nice to meet you Jul 13 10:03:56 linux4all, right? Jul 13 10:04:05 right! Jul 13 10:04:28 since 3-4 years, I`m working on redhat based livecd`s. Jul 13 10:04:42 OK Dirk, I`m Darko, I`m SoC participant working on Fedora live cd project Jul 13 10:04:57 nice to meet, you! Jul 13 10:05:25 So darko, what's new to report? hi all Jul 13 10:06:15 I`ve been hacking anaconda these days Jul 13 10:06:38 but package selection in anaconda is in progress right now Jul 13 10:06:47 they are moving it to use yum backend Jul 13 10:07:05 so I should probably wait for them to finish that part of the job Jul 13 10:07:30 dwestfal, you've hacked on anaconda. What all can you do in your setup? Jul 13 10:07:51 My installer is a clone of the fc3 anaconda Jul 13 10:08:04 it currently supports all buildsteps neccessary to create a livecd Jul 13 10:08:11 you have an url with screen shots Jul 13 10:08:27 : installation of the master, creation of virtual harddisk, preparing the image, creating the iso Jul 13 10:08:50 only thing not working quite right is the creation of the iso initrd. Jul 13 10:09:30 The 'build logic' is nearly all working, but there are a lot of loose ends (progressbars etc.) Jul 13 10:09:51 I currently use it to build fc4 images from 3.98. Jul 13 10:10:41 I want to use anaconda just for package selection, other stuff should be in shell scripts so it could be run with cron Jul 13 10:11:07 why cron? Jul 13 10:11:45 seems like something that ought to be immediate Jul 13 10:12:42 Well, Sopwith wants to have a script that can generate livecd iso images out of the instalable tree, so it can be used on test repositories for example Jul 13 10:14:39 So I think then we need anacanda to write the config file. I guess we can have hooks for progress callback. Jul 13 10:14:55 Another script does the work Jul 13 10:15:24 * gregdek_home has wandered afk, kick me if you need me... Jul 13 10:16:32 Is there a cvs/svn repository somewhere (already) ? Jul 13 10:17:13 no, not yet I think Jul 13 10:17:37 The script to create the livecd : shell or python ? Jul 13 10:17:50 doesn`t metter, why? Jul 13 10:18:19 I think a lot of the 'create-the-livecd' functions could perhaps be taken from my modules Jul 13 10:18:36 Yeah, that`s what I hope.. :) Jul 13 10:19:19 language doesn't matter to me either. Jul 13 10:19:31 So we could run interactively and script-controlled Jul 13 10:19:51 yes, that would be nice Jul 13 10:20:02 agreed Jul 13 10:20:11 And it would avoid 'doubled engeneering' :) Jul 13 10:20:14 --> thl (~thl at thl.fedora) has joined #fedora-livecd Jul 13 10:23:14 So what do we need to do to start combining ? Jul 13 10:23:32 This seems like it can be worked in parallel Jul 13 10:23:33 cvs? Jul 13 10:23:39 svn ? Jul 13 10:23:50 I think fedora is on cvs Jul 13 10:23:58 then cvs, it is :) Jul 13 10:23:58 so, anyone talket to Sopwith? Jul 13 10:24:04 I have not yet. Jul 13 10:24:10 Wait, I have... Jul 13 10:24:17 ...but he's not moving immediately. Jul 13 10:24:21 Do we need to poke him now? Jul 13 10:24:27 yes Jul 13 10:24:34 OK, I'll do that. Jul 13 10:25:20 Also, what would expedite things is to come up with config file layout, etc. Jul 13 10:25:52 I think that it would be good to keep kickstart format Jul 13 10:26:01 what do you think? Jul 13 10:26:24 Ack. Jul 13 10:27:14 In the end, the only real difference to a harddisk based system would be the livecdrpms Jul 13 10:27:38 But aren't there things we need that are not in kickstart? image size for splitting, format, ext2,3,squashfs Jul 13 10:27:52 yeah, just to keep the format Jul 13 10:27:56 i thought.. Jul 13 10:28:12 image size, too. We want either cdrom or dvd Jul 13 10:28:42 But the bigest section is packages, and that sec could stay the same Jul 13 10:28:43 we need to be able to tell the package selection will not fit Jul 13 10:29:04 on givene media Jul 13 10:29:41 but at the point of package selection, we can just assume the size of iso, but we can not know, right? Jul 13 10:30:06 Right, it should be user selectable Jul 13 10:30:25 ? Jul 13 10:30:40 some people want dvd, some want cdrom. Jul 13 10:30:55 yeah Jul 13 10:31:03 Why penalize people with dvd burner if they want more packages Jul 13 10:31:18 perhaps we can reuse the diskspace-calculation function of anaconda ? Jul 13 10:31:41 we need to teach it about sqahfs, too. Jul 13 10:31:44 but can that func assume the size of squashfs image? Jul 13 10:31:48 sqashfs that is Jul 13 10:32:11 well - currently, i suppose not Jul 13 10:33:24 So, where do we put this extra config information Jul 13 10:34:02 why not to put everything in single conf file? Jul 13 10:34:04 Maybe a comment? Jul 13 10:34:26 would kickstart choke if it saw something it didn't understand? Jul 13 10:35:08 I am wanting to make sure that the file doesn't get used by accident with kickstart Jul 13 10:35:16 Perhaps an additional ks-format file ? (like ks-livecd.cfg) Jul 13 10:35:55 --> jeremy (~katzj at wlanconf-nat-pool-bos.redhat.com) has joined #fedora-livecd Jul 13 10:36:53 I am not familiar with kickstart format, is it easily extended to group the livecd config information? Jul 13 10:37:57 Well, I think we have jeremy here now, so maybe we can ask him ? :) Jul 13 10:40:40 Also, another config item...distro name. Do we want to allow people to give it a custome name? Jul 13 10:40:53 yes, I think Jul 13 10:41:13 me too - it`s quite important for the end-user. Jul 13 10:41:31 what other configurable items do we need? Jul 13 10:42:19 wether to use a swapfile or not ? maximum size of runtime writable space ? Jul 13 10:43:40 I think those are a little different in that they pertain to runtime of the resulting cd. They are good items, but are in a second category. Jul 13 10:44:19 yes, you`re right. Jul 13 10:44:48 These will go into a config file the loader will use Jul 13 10:45:32 Regarding image creation...is there anything else we need to collect? Jul 13 10:46:11 does kickstart file format include location of srpms? Jul 13 10:46:18 not srpms, rpms Jul 13 10:46:52 uh! Jul 13 10:47:02 does everything need to be downloaded and in 1 directory? Jul 13 10:47:31 instalable packages? Jul 13 10:47:43 yes Jul 13 10:47:53 hmm Jul 13 10:47:54 not neccessary: in 'my' anaconda clone, i just download the livecdrpms and use a network install source Jul 13 10:48:42 but packages are atill in the same repo? Jul 13 10:48:42 though to make it clear, our livecd cant really be stuff thats !in fedora. so no anaconda forks, right? Jul 13 10:49:24 right. the packages can of course be in the same repo. Jul 13 10:49:37 can, or must? Jul 13 10:50:01 can. It`s a design question : Jul 13 10:50:29 it depends on wether the livecd specific rpms are installed during a 'normal' install process, Jul 13 10:50:47 or as a 'post-install' task Jul 13 10:54:37 back to kickstart...do we need to know where to find packages Jul 13 10:54:47 no Jul 13 10:55:28 I think conf file should contain list of packages, and the script that creates livecd iso should have path-to-repo parametar Jul 13 10:55:29 So, then I guess we have 3 items we need to collect for image creation: format, size, name. Jul 13 10:55:52 what about multiple repos? Jul 13 10:56:17 we've all seen casper right? what Ubuntu use? we need to compete if not make that better imho Jul 13 10:56:21 I may have some of my own packages, fedora packages, extras, and some from another place. Jul 13 10:58:56 question: if we have a list of packages in conf file, and we give the script the list of repos, it could find all packages listed in conf file, right? Jul 13 10:59:13 should the list of packages take absolute path, or just the basename? Jul 13 11:00:28 I`ve just remebered something - in kickstart file packages are not listed Jul 13 11:00:29 In rookery, i solved it by using absolute path. I suppose we could have a list of dirs to look in to resolve rpms. Jul 13 11:01:02 there are a list of groups to be included + some extra packages to be included/excluded Jul 13 11:02:07 well, I new that, and that was fine, but what if we use conf file that was created on fc3 on fc4 repo, there could be some other packages included in our groups, so the size of the image would change.. Jul 13 11:02:51 Does package name include version number? Jul 13 11:02:59 no Jul 13 11:03:21 I wonder how you specify multiple kernels? Jul 13 11:04:39 * darkoilic is away: I`ll be right back Jul 13 11:05:33 --> Sopwith (~sopwith at nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #fedora-livecd Jul 13 11:07:22 hi Sopwith, there was some discussion earlier about cvs space for the livecd project Jul 13 11:07:54 * darkoilic is back Jul 13 11:08:24 sgrubb: Ahah, cool Jul 13 11:08:31 :) Jul 13 11:08:50 I can make it happen. Jul 13 11:11:13 someone kindly update http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD Jul 13 11:11:40 I think that would be a big help. I think we are final at a point where more than 1 person has code to contribute. Jul 13 11:15:55 Do we need to do any more coordination to combine Dirk's scripts? Jul 13 11:16:24 I haven`t seen his scripts... Jul 13 11:16:33 I`ve seen screenshots Jul 13 11:16:48 dwestfal, does your scripts currently support squashfs or is that easy to add? Jul 13 11:17:11 Not yet - I`ll have to check that. Jul 13 11:17:37 Is there a design doc somewhere that outlines the current concept of the fc-official livecd ? Jul 13 11:18:32 I would write one if some of you point me to some example how to do that Jul 13 11:19:15 darkoilic, start out with something Jul 13 11:19:25 darkoilic, write down the notes somewhere and put in the wiki Jul 13 11:19:31 I tought there is something like template.. Jul 13 11:19:34 darkoilic, we can improve upon that later Jul 13 11:19:41 OK Jul 13 11:19:47 I think I posted something like that to mail list a week or two ago. Jul 13 11:19:47 darkoilic, not really. you could see competing projects for examples Jul 13 11:20:05 I allready have some notes that I use... Jul 13 11:20:20 I`ll make them look better Jul 13 11:25:17 I need to get busy with some other work, do we have a consensus about the next steps? Jul 13 11:25:58 Well, I`ll take a look on dirk`s scripts, and I`ll also try to write something on wiki Jul 13 11:26:21 OK, so! Jul 13 11:26:32 I've been in a Fedora Foundation meeting! Double duty. Jul 13 11:26:41 Sounds like we're at "next steps"? Jul 13 11:26:50 * gregdek_home reads back... Jul 13 11:26:59 Also, if we can get current work into cvs, that would let Dirk see your scripts and start making integration plans. Jul 13 11:27:13 1. Get CVS access. Sopwith, how do we look there? Jul 13 11:27:14 yes, that would be great. Jul 13 11:27:27 Everyone needs to get accounts in the Fedora Account System, if you don't have them already. Jul 13 11:27:36 Does everyone understand how to do that? Jul 13 11:28:02 https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ Jul 13 11:28:14 Go to https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ and follow the instructions. I think I'll create a 'cvsdevel' group that is the one to join for this stuff. Jul 13 11:28:34 Not cvslivecd or somesuch? Jul 13 11:29:06 nm. You make the call. Jul 13 11:29:14 I want to create a /cvs/devel repo to hold all the SoC projects, and this is a good chance to do it. Jul 13 11:29:26 Okey doke. How long until people can go to the Accounts System? Jul 13 11:29:36 They can go right now. Jul 13 11:29:44 And you'll add group info later when it exists? Jul 13 11:30:14 I just added the group - feel free to apply for membership. Jul 13 11:30:34 Rock! Jul 13 11:30:41 Sopwith: EVERYONE GO APPLY NOW. Jul 13 11:31:01 (Damned stupid irc client changing So: to Sopwith:...) Jul 13 11:31:32 I need to change my nickname to Oklahoma... Jul 13 11:31:32 This meeting time good for folks? Jul 13 11:31:37 LOL! Jul 13 11:31:39 Don't you dare. Jul 13 11:32:22 Fine by me! Jul 13 11:32:31 fine with me, too OK. Who's updating the wiki? Jul 13 11:33:28 I said I`ll try :) "Do, or do not. There is no try." :) Jul 13 11:33:50 Do you have an account on the wiki yet? No, I`ll do it, that`s for sure, but I don`t know if it is going to be good Jul 13 11:34:21 Yes, I have Don't worry. We'll clean it up if it's horrible. :) Jul 13 11:34:42 great Jul 13 11:34:46 Anything else that NEEDS to be done by next week? Jul 13 11:35:14 I think we need to start deciding about the config file format Jul 13 11:35:31 I want to create the opportunity for work in parallel Jul 13 11:35:52 So who's working the config file format issue? Jul 13 11:36:39 a write up of the tasks to be done Jul 13 11:36:39 Again, I`ll write something, and I`ll send to the list, and you can tell if it is good or not Jul 13 11:36:50 would be useful if you are planning to work on things together Jul 13 11:38:12 OK, so. TODOs: Jul 13 11:38:22 1. CVS access. Everyone go fill out your forms. Jul 13 11:38:32 2. Update wiki. Darko. Jul 13 11:38:40 3. Config file format proposal. Darko. Jul 13 11:38:47 Any others for next week? Jul 13 11:40:02 I hope to finish 2&3 sooner then next week... Jul 13 11:40:05 :) Jul 13 11:40:19 :) Anyone else need anything by next week? Speak now or forever hold your peace... Jul 13 11:40:50 So, when I finish 2&3, I`ll do something else, probably the part that comes after conf file creation... Jul 13 11:41:10 and I`ll probably need some help, but I`ll use mailing list Jul 13 11:41:23 Perfect. Jul 13 11:41:44 Thanks all. See you next week. I'll send the transcipt to the list. From darko.ilic at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 16:37:33 2005 From: darko.ilic at gmail.com (Darko Ilic) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:37:33 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated Message-ID: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> OK people, I`ve just updated http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD page. Please take a look and suggest modifications. And also please point out any obvious language mistakes, cause I'm not a native english speaker. Config file proposal comming soon! Darko Ilic -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de Sat Jul 16 04:17:54 2005 From: dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de (Dirk Westfal) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:17:54 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated In-Reply-To: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> Hi, gentlemen! On Friday 15 July 2005 12:37, Darko Ilic wrote: > OK people, ... Some first suggestions/notes/comments ... >The application should be able to assume (because of the compression, we are >not able to tell the exact value) the size of the image so the user could >nclude/exclude packages in order to fit the desired media. This could be >realized reusing diskspace-calculation function of anaconda, and teaching it >about squashfs. At least the (intermediate) compression ratio should be known: eg. for zisofs it is ~ 1/3 of the original space required, so i think a static divisor (perhaps with an additional failsafe 'minus 50 Mb' or somewhat else) should work here. >(big step!) modifications (Modifications would be scripted, and would include > all changes that should be made to system to make it able to run from cd. All modifications made to the system should be made via rpm packages that allow install/uninstall (imho). This way it is muchmore easier to 'root out' errors, as well as keeping the system clean: the only difference between harddisk and livecd system would be the presence of these rpms (imho :) If these packages are in the repo, the only thing to take care of would be to make sure they` re always installed last. (Either as last packages to be installed (eg. autoadded to the package list by the installer) or via some postinstall function. > User should be able to add his scripts to be executed in this step. This could be done with an additional rpm package that uses scripts in eg. /etc/sysconfig/fedora-livecd/ (or somewhere else) and runs them in a somehow defined order. Ideally, these scripts would have an install and uninstall section also. > Additionally, user should be able to chroot to system and to do some custom modifications.) Perhaps toggleable by an config file option (like: usermodify=true ) ?? > compression and iso image creation and of course setting up the isolinux bootloader (config, kernel, initrd) The most worriesome part (imho): I`m currently experimenting with creating an isolinux compliant initrd inside the image (by an mklivecdinitrd - rpm) and then moving the initrd + kernel to the isolinux folder by the installer. >List of system modifications >init modifications That`s one hard thing: I use the approach to check the default rc.sysinit file of the distri and ifdeffing out all parts writing to / by checking for the existence of the livecd 'tag' file. Setup of tmpfs and other stuff like initial hw detection is (now) done via an rc.livecd script executed before the rc.sysinit script. This works fine, however it requires to check each modifiaction to rc.sysinit for changes ... >overlay file system or a tmpfs for all directories that are writable, In my expirience, the best way to populate it at runtime is to use a tar.gz : a ~64Mb tree compresses to ~8Mb and is extracted in ~4-6 seconds. However my approach to move and re-symlink all runtimewritable parts currently wrecks selinux :( though it is very easy to handle (just one archive for ALL runtime writable directories) > A2: Stripping out languages (what else can be deleted?) Perhaps a good part of /usr/share/doc - at least on a gui livecd. It is also possible to remove /var/lib/rpm (though i prefer to move/re-symlink that to a read-only dir, eg /usr/local/rpm) >Q: how to handle multiple repositories? Do all rpms need to be on the machine before installation? > Q: multiple kernels? That would be great! I always used the 'last-known-good' (=tested on as many systems from livecd as possible) + 'latest' approach to provide fallback. > Q: system installer (app that would be able to install OS on HDD from LiveCD) yes or no? Would be great to have ! If the only difference between livecd and harddisk is the presence of special rpms and/or a special 'tag' file, it would be easy to just copy the whole livecd to the traget partition(s), uninstalling the special rpms and removing the tag file (and then calling firstboot ...). >Q: Shutdown, how do we export data on the way down? Via usb: user home + etc Via floppy: just changed files in /etc >Q: Should the CD automatically look at floppy, usb or hdd for saved session/override data? Imho: yes - one of the functions most requested by my users: if a usb device with an file like 'livecd-' is present, it should be extracted just after login in. (and revers on logoff) > Q: Besides exporting data, does it really need to do anything on the way down? After saving user session data, there is no need to do a 'full flavored shutdown'. I think a 'forced halt/reboot' is then sufficient. > Build config file (holding information related to the building process) >test drive >test mountpoint + where to store temp data ? >CD Config file (holding information related to the distro) >list of packages + repositorys ? >max image size + image type (CDROM: ->700Mb/DVD ->3,8Gb) ? > file system to be used (ext2/ext3..) (do we really need this?) Could be usefulll to perform 'sanity checks' - with zisofs compressed images i can do a full filechek of the compressed image even on harddisk - is the same true for sqashfs ? > wether to use a swapfile or not I currently use an rc service to setup a swapfile on the first partition of usable type and sufficient size - but only if the user by himself starts it. Imho is anything accessing the users harddisk a big red line to step over, but swapping might be necessary (eg. if using oo and a lot of other apps at the same time) Wihtout one, the session normally gets restarted (at leasdt with kde) loosing all/most changes. >maximum size of runtime writable space Perhaps include some warning mech that informs the user if reaching some fill level ? > Darko Ilic Dirk Westfal -- Dirk Westfal /Admin/RHCE/QAR Frankfurter Verein / Edv Abteilung / Netzwerkverwaltung Fon: + 49 69 79405 447 ?Fax: + 49 69 79405 301 'Protego et servio' From tp at alternativ.net Sat Jul 16 14:33:36 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:33:36 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated In-Reply-To: <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> Message-ID: <1121524416.18793.55.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Hi, on thing one should consider: with many DVDs around shouldn't we concentrate on producing a DVD? There would be much lesser need to compress. -- http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci Jabber: vinci at jabber.org From fedora at leemhuis.info Sat Jul 16 17:47:20 2005 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:47:20 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated In-Reply-To: <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> Message-ID: <1121536040.3562.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi! Am Samstag, den 16.07.2005, 00:17 -0400 schrieb Dirk Westfal: > >Q: Should the CD automatically look at floppy, usb or hdd for saved > session/override data? > Imho: yes - one of the functions most requested by my users: if a usb device > with an file like 'livecd-' is present, it should be extracted just > after login in. (and revers on logoff) This should be a config *and* runtime-option. If someone wants to ship a Knoppix like Rescue-CD/DVD based on Fedora you don't want it to touch all filesystems. It could do damage to those (even if it is mounted ro only -- there *could* be a old 'livecd-' file that was forgotten) -- Thorsten Leemhuis From dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de Sun Jul 17 09:38:33 2005 From: dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de (Dirk Westfal) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 05:38:33 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Re: Q: Should the CD automatically look at floppy, usb or hdd for saved session/override data? In-Reply-To: <1121536315.3562.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <1121536040.3562.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1121536315.3562.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507170538.35665.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> Hi, On Saturday 16 July 2005 13:51, you wrote: > Am Samstag, den 16.07.2005, 19:47 +0200 schrieb Thorsten Leemhuis: .. > > > >Q: Should the CD automatically look at floppy, usb or hdd for saved > > > session/override data? > > > Imho: yes - one of the functions most requested by my users: if a usb > > > device with an file like 'livecd-' is present, it should be > > > extracted just after login in. (and revers on logoff) > > > > This should be a config *and* runtime-option. If someone wants to ship a > > Knoppix like Rescue-CD/DVD based on Fedora you don't want it to touch > > all filesystems. It could do damage to those (even if it is mounted ro > > only -- there *could* be a old 'livecd-' file that was > > forgotten) Ack. My livecd systems never ever touch a harddisk by themself .... :) That`s the 'big red line' to step over ... and why i specifically wrote 'usb device' which is more like a floppy (well, there might be a prob with external usb-hdd`s, but luckily those aren`t that common ...) Access to harddisk should never be enabled by default - autodetection/usage of usb storage: well - this seemed to be a decent way to allow auto-save/restore while minimizing the risk of corrupting user data. The problem with old/obsolete profiles isn`t easely solveable - but if it`s read from a ro-mounted media, this shouldn`t be much of a problem. At least distinguishing between different livecd versions could be done using a 'track' file. A combination of bootprompt argument, sysv service (toggled by config option set at buildtime) and an icon (for the gui version) seems to be ideal, perhaps with also 'tagging' the storage device as profile/session media. > Private followup to myself: > > Wir hatten angeblich (sagte mir ein Kollege) mit einem Knoppix in der > c't mal ein paar solche F?lle, wo Knoppix ungewollt Dateisysteme > mountete, die eigentlich gerade repariert werden sollten. Das hat dann > wohl die schon bestehenden Probleme mit dem Dateisystem noch > verschlimmert... Yupp - habe aehnliches gehoert. Das ist so eine Knoppixangewohnheit die ich absolut nicht leiden kann: alles mounten was bei drei nicht auf den Baeumen ist UND auch gleich noch ein Swapfile anlegen. Die Festplatte eines Anwenders darf man nur dann anfassen, wenn dieser es ausdruecklich wuenscht und eigenhaendig anfordert. Einen Usbstoepsel kann der Anwender erheblich besser kontrollieren. Alles andere ist gefaehrlich (und imho ziemlich unanstaendig). Dirk From dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de Mon Jul 18 01:31:37 2005 From: dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de (Dirk Westfal) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:31:37 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Article for fedoranews.org ... Message-ID: <200507172131.37538.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> Hi gentlemen, Thomas Chung of fedoranews.org asked me to write an article about how to create a fedora core 4 based livecd. Since a short tutorial/some kind of proper design document was overdue, i agreed. The article describes the concept i currently use as well as the buildprocess (using a free harddisk partition - everything else seemed to dangerous ... don`t want to be responsible for a hosed buildsystem because of some package relocations running wild ...) For the article i`ve also recreated a basic set of (unsigned) rpms and moved all modifications that are made to the system to per-package install/uninstall.sh scripts as well as improving the integration into the fedora core init process. I`ve also included a reference to the fedora livecd project. URL: http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Creating_a_Fedora_Core_4_livecd hoping not having done something inappropiate, Dirk -- Dirk Westfal /Admin/RHCE/QAR Frankfurter Verein / Edv Abteilung / Netzwerkverwaltung Fon: + 49 69 79405 447 ?Fax: + 49 69 79405 301 Mobile: 0172 61 989 51 'Protego et servio' From sundaram at redhat.com Sun Jul 17 19:40:39 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 01:10:39 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Article for fedoranews.org ... In-Reply-To: <200507172131.37538.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> References: <200507172131.37538.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> Message-ID: <42DAB437.9040205@redhat.com> Hi >I`ve also included a reference to the fedora livecd project. > >URL: http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Creating_a_Fedora_Core_4_livecd > > Dont see any content on the page >hoping not having done something inappropiate, >Dirk > A note thats is something in development and a warning that is currently only a advanced preview for experts who might be willing to contribute(with pointers on getting involved) and not a final end user version would be a good thing. It should generally be viewed of as a enthusiastic message listing out possibilities with the rationale behind each of the options and decisions being made so people can understand clearly whats happening regards Rahul From dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de Mon Jul 18 02:18:04 2005 From: dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de (Dirk Westfal) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:18:04 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Article for fedoranews.org ... In-Reply-To: <42DAB437.9040205@redhat.com> References: <200507172131.37538.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> <42DAB437.9040205@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200507172218.04951.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> On Sunday 17 July 2005 15:40, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi >Dont see any content on the page Thomas slightly changed the title: http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Creating_a_Fedora_Core_4_LiveCD > A note thats is something in development and a warning that is currently > only a advanced preview for experts who might be willing to > contribute(with pointers on getting involved) and not a final end user > version would be a good thing. It should generally be viewed of as a > enthusiastic message listing out possibilities with the rationale behind > each of the options and decisions being made so people can understand > clearly whats happening Ok. Will include this as soon as the page is editable again. > regards > Rahul > best regards, Dirk From darko.ilic at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 22:33:03 2005 From: darko.ilic at gmail.com (Darko Ilic) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:33:03 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Config file format proposal Message-ID: <552ca20305071715332ee2b428@mail.gmail.com> Here`s my livecd config file format proposal. We`ve been talking about reusing kickstart file format, but I found out that it`s not so good solution. Kickstart file doesn`t include complete list of packages but keeps only list of groups to be included and relies on comps.xml file and definitions of group members. Since it`s very important for config files to be compatibile with different versions of FC, we have to have the complete list of packages in our config file (for example, some 100MB big package could be added to some group we included, and the size of our livecd iso image would change dramaticly without a reason). Again, for compatibility reasons, we have to keep the list of packages _without_ version numbers inluded. Many repositories can be listed in config file, but only one (named "default") is essential. URL parameter for repositories is read from conf file by default, but can be overriden with command line parameter (for example: buildlivecd -f ./fc4livecd.conf -r default=http://bla.bla/fedora/core/4 ). I think that layout used in this example that I`m sending is not the best choise, and the reason I used it is to describe the hierarchy of the file. So, please, propose some file layout that could have similar structure but that can be easily parsed by both python application that is supposed to generate it and bash script that is supposed to read information from it. And, yes, feel free to post your comments :) Darko -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fc4livecd.conf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 931 bytes Desc: not available URL: From n.richter at qut.edu.au Mon Jul 18 02:58:12 2005 From: n.richter at qut.edu.au (neville) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:58:12 +1000 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Meeting minutes, 13 July 2005 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DB1AC4.3020609@qut.edu.au> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >Attached. > >--g > >_____________________ ____________________________________________ > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Jul 13 10:02:51 OK, looks like we've got a quorum. >Jul 13 10:02:54 :) >Jul 13 10:03:01 dwestfal: Introduce yourself. >Jul 13 10:03:38 Hi, my Name is Dirk Westfal, I`m working as a network admin at a gonvernment related company in ffm/germany >Jul 13 10:03:51 hi dirk, nice to meet you >Jul 13 10:03:56 linux4all, right? >Jul 13 10:04:05 right! >Jul 13 10:04:28 since 3-4 years, I`m working on redhat based livecd`s. >Jul 13 10:04:42 OK Dirk, I`m Darko, I`m SoC participant working on Fedora live cd project >Jul 13 10:04:57 nice to meet, you! >Jul 13 10:05:25 So darko, what's new to report? > hi all >Jul 13 10:06:15 I`ve been hacking anaconda these days >Jul 13 10:06:38 but package selection in anaconda is in progress right now >Jul 13 10:06:47 they are moving it to use yum backend >Jul 13 10:07:05 so I should probably wait for them to finish that part of the job >Jul 13 10:07:30 dwestfal, you've hacked on anaconda. What all can you do in your setup? >Jul 13 10:07:51 My installer is a clone of the fc3 anaconda >Jul 13 10:08:04 it currently supports all buildsteps neccessary to create a livecd >Jul 13 10:08:11 you have an url with screen shots >Jul 13 10:08:27 : installation of the master, creation of virtual harddisk, preparing the image, creating the iso >Jul 13 10:08:50 only thing not working quite right is the creation of the iso initrd. >Jul 13 10:09:30 The 'build logic' is nearly all working, but there are a lot of loose ends (progressbars etc.) >Jul 13 10:09:51 I currently use it to build fc4 images from 3.98. >Jul 13 10:10:41 I want to use anaconda just for package selection, other stuff should be in shell scripts so it could be run with cron >Jul 13 10:11:07 why cron? >Jul 13 10:11:45 seems like something that ought to be immediate >Jul 13 10:12:42 Well, Sopwith wants to have a script that can generate livecd iso images out of the instalable tree, so it can be used on test repositories for example >Jul 13 10:14:39 So I think then we need anacanda to write the config file. I guess we can have hooks for progress callback. >Jul 13 10:14:55 Another script does the work >Jul 13 10:15:24 * gregdek_home has wandered afk, kick me if you need me... >Jul 13 10:16:32 Is there a cvs/svn repository somewhere (already) ? >Jul 13 10:17:13 no, not yet I think >Jul 13 10:17:37 The script to create the livecd : shell or python ? >Jul 13 10:17:50 doesn`t metter, why? >Jul 13 10:18:19 I think a lot of the 'create-the-livecd' functions could perhaps be taken from my modules >Jul 13 10:18:36 Yeah, that`s what I hope.. :) >Jul 13 10:19:19 language doesn't matter to me either. >Jul 13 10:19:31 So we could run interactively and script-controlled >Jul 13 10:19:51 yes, that would be nice >Jul 13 10:20:02 agreed >Jul 13 10:20:11 And it would avoid 'doubled engeneering' :) >Jul 13 10:20:14 --> thl (~thl at thl.fedora) has joined #fedora-livecd >Jul 13 10:23:14 So what do we need to do to start combining ? >Jul 13 10:23:32 This seems like it can be worked in parallel >Jul 13 10:23:33 cvs? >Jul 13 10:23:39 svn ? >Jul 13 10:23:50 I think fedora is on cvs >Jul 13 10:23:58 then cvs, it is :) >Jul 13 10:23:58 so, anyone talket to Sopwith? >Jul 13 10:24:04 I have not yet. >Jul 13 10:24:10 Wait, I have... >Jul 13 10:24:17 ...but he's not moving immediately. >Jul 13 10:24:21 Do we need to poke him now? >Jul 13 10:24:27 yes >Jul 13 10:24:34 OK, I'll do that. >Jul 13 10:25:20 Also, what would expedite things is to come up with config file layout, etc. >Jul 13 10:25:52 I think that it would be good to keep kickstart format >Jul 13 10:26:01 what do you think? >Jul 13 10:26:24 Ack. >Jul 13 10:27:14 In the end, the only real difference to a harddisk based system would be the livecdrpms >Jul 13 10:27:38 But aren't there things we need that are not in kickstart? image size for splitting, format, ext2,3,squashfs >Jul 13 10:27:52 yeah, just to keep the format >Jul 13 10:27:56 i thought.. >Jul 13 10:28:12 image size, too. We want either cdrom or dvd >Jul 13 10:28:42 But the bigest section is packages, and that sec could stay the same >Jul 13 10:28:43 we need to be able to tell the package selection will not fit >Jul 13 10:29:04 on givene media >Jul 13 10:29:41 but at the point of package selection, we can just assume the size of iso, but we can not know, right? >Jul 13 10:30:06 Right, it should be user selectable >Jul 13 10:30:25 ? >Jul 13 10:30:40 some people want dvd, some want cdrom. >Jul 13 10:30:55 yeah >Jul 13 10:31:03 Why penalize people with dvd burner if they want more packages >Jul 13 10:31:18 perhaps we can reuse the diskspace-calculation function of anaconda ? >Jul 13 10:31:41 we need to teach it about sqahfs, too. >Jul 13 10:31:44 but can that func assume the size of squashfs image? >Jul 13 10:31:48 sqashfs that is >Jul 13 10:32:11 well - currently, i suppose not >Jul 13 10:33:24 So, where do we put this extra config information >Jul 13 10:34:02 why not to put everything in single conf file? >Jul 13 10:34:04 Maybe a comment? >Jul 13 10:34:26 would kickstart choke if it saw something it didn't understand? >Jul 13 10:35:08 I am wanting to make sure that the file doesn't get used by accident with kickstart >Jul 13 10:35:16 Perhaps an additional ks-format file ? (like ks-livecd.cfg) >Jul 13 10:35:55 --> jeremy (~katzj at wlanconf-nat-pool-bos.redhat.com) has joined #fedora-livecd >Jul 13 10:36:53 I am not familiar with kickstart format, is it easily extended to group the livecd config information? >Jul 13 10:37:57 Well, I think we have jeremy here now, so maybe we can ask him ? :) >Jul 13 10:40:40 Also, another config item...distro name. Do we want to allow people to give it a custome name? >Jul 13 10:40:53 yes, I think >Jul 13 10:41:13 me too - it`s quite important for the end-user. >Jul 13 10:41:31 what other configurable items do we need? >Jul 13 10:42:19 wether to use a swapfile or not ? maximum size of runtime writable space ? >Jul 13 10:43:40 I think those are a little different in that they pertain to runtime of the resulting cd. They are good items, but are in a second category. >Jul 13 10:44:19 yes, you`re right. >Jul 13 10:44:48 These will go into a config file the loader will use >Jul 13 10:45:32 Regarding image creation...is there anything else we need to collect? >Jul 13 10:46:11 does kickstart file format include location of srpms? >Jul 13 10:46:18 not srpms, rpms >Jul 13 10:46:52 uh! >Jul 13 10:47:02 does everything need to be downloaded and in 1 directory? >Jul 13 10:47:31 instalable packages? >Jul 13 10:47:43 yes >Jul 13 10:47:53 hmm >Jul 13 10:47:54 not neccessary: in 'my' anaconda clone, i just download the livecdrpms and use a network install source >Jul 13 10:48:42 but packages are atill in the same repo? >Jul 13 10:48:42 though to make it clear, our livecd cant really be stuff thats !in fedora. so no anaconda forks, right? >Jul 13 10:49:24 right. the packages can of course be in the same repo. >Jul 13 10:49:37 can, or must? >Jul 13 10:50:01 can. It`s a design question : >Jul 13 10:50:29 it depends on wether the livecd specific rpms are installed during a 'normal' install process, >Jul 13 10:50:47 or as a 'post-install' task >Jul 13 10:54:37 back to kickstart...do we need to know where to find packages >Jul 13 10:54:47 no >Jul 13 10:55:28 I think conf file should contain list of packages, and the script that creates livecd iso should have path-to-repo parametar >Jul 13 10:55:29 So, then I guess we have 3 items we need to collect for image creation: format, size, name. >Jul 13 10:55:52 what about multiple repos? >Jul 13 10:56:17 we've all seen casper right? what Ubuntu use? we need to compete if not make that better imho >Jul 13 10:56:21 I may have some of my own packages, fedora packages, extras, and some from another place. >Jul 13 10:58:56 question: if we have a list of packages in conf file, and we give the script the list of repos, it could find all packages listed in conf file, right? >Jul 13 10:59:13 should the list of packages take absolute path, or just the basename? >Jul 13 11:00:28 I`ve just remebered something - in kickstart file packages are not listed >Jul 13 11:00:29 In rookery, i solved it by using absolute path. I suppose we could have a list of dirs to look in to resolve rpms. >Jul 13 11:01:02 there are a list of groups to be included + some extra packages to be included/excluded >Jul 13 11:02:07 well, I new that, and that was fine, but what if we use conf file that was created on fc3 on fc4 repo, there could be some other packages included in our groups, so the size of the image would change.. >Jul 13 11:02:51 Does package name include version number? >Jul 13 11:02:59 no >Jul 13 11:03:21 I wonder how you specify multiple kernels? >Jul 13 11:04:39 * darkoilic is away: I`ll be right back >Jul 13 11:05:33 --> Sopwith (~sopwith at nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #fedora-livecd >Jul 13 11:07:22 hi Sopwith, there was some discussion earlier about cvs space for the livecd project >Jul 13 11:07:54 * darkoilic is back >Jul 13 11:08:24 sgrubb: Ahah, cool >Jul 13 11:08:31 :) >Jul 13 11:08:50 I can make it happen. >Jul 13 11:11:13 someone kindly update http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD >Jul 13 11:11:40 I think that would be a big help. I think we are final at a point where more than 1 person has code to contribute. >Jul 13 11:15:55 Do we need to do any more coordination to combine Dirk's scripts? >Jul 13 11:16:24 I haven`t seen his scripts... >Jul 13 11:16:33 I`ve seen screenshots >Jul 13 11:16:48 dwestfal, does your scripts currently support squashfs or is that easy to add? >Jul 13 11:17:11 Not yet - I`ll have to check that. >Jul 13 11:17:37 Is there a design doc somewhere that outlines the current concept of the fc-official livecd ? >Jul 13 11:18:32 I would write one if some of you point me to some example how to do that >Jul 13 11:19:15 darkoilic, start out with something >Jul 13 11:19:25 darkoilic, write down the notes somewhere and put in the wiki >Jul 13 11:19:31 I tought there is something like template.. >Jul 13 11:19:34 darkoilic, we can improve upon that later >Jul 13 11:19:41 OK >Jul 13 11:19:47 I think I posted something like that to mail list a week or two ago. >Jul 13 11:19:47 darkoilic, not really. you could see competing projects for examples >Jul 13 11:20:05 I allready have some notes that I use... >Jul 13 11:20:20 I`ll make them look better >Jul 13 11:25:17 I need to get busy with some other work, do we have a consensus about the next steps? >Jul 13 11:25:58 Well, I`ll take a look on dirk`s scripts, and I`ll also try to write something on wiki >Jul 13 11:26:21 OK, so! >Jul 13 11:26:32 I've been in a Fedora Foundation meeting! Double duty. >Jul 13 11:26:41 Sounds like we're at "next steps"? >Jul 13 11:26:50 * gregdek_home reads back... >Jul 13 11:26:59 Also, if we can get current work into cvs, that would let Dirk see your scripts and start making integration plans. >Jul 13 11:27:13 1. Get CVS access. Sopwith, how do we look there? >Jul 13 11:27:14 yes, that would be great. >Jul 13 11:27:27 Everyone needs to get accounts in the Fedora Account System, if you don't have them already. >Jul 13 11:27:36 Does everyone understand how to do that? >Jul 13 11:28:02 https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ >Jul 13 11:28:14 Go to https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ and follow the instructions. I think I'll create a 'cvsdevel' group that is the one to join for this stuff. >Jul 13 11:28:34 Not cvslivecd or somesuch? >Jul 13 11:29:06 nm. You make the call. >Jul 13 11:29:14 I want to create a /cvs/devel repo to hold all the SoC projects, and this is a good chance to do it. >Jul 13 11:29:26 Okey doke. How long until people can go to the Accounts System? >Jul 13 11:29:36 They can go right now. >Jul 13 11:29:44 And you'll add group info later when it exists? >Jul 13 11:30:14 I just added the group - feel free to apply for membership. >Jul 13 11:30:34 Rock! >Jul 13 11:30:41 Sopwith: EVERYONE GO APPLY NOW. >Jul 13 11:31:01 (Damned stupid irc client changing So: to Sopwith:...) >Jul 13 11:31:32 I need to change my nickname to Oklahoma... >Jul 13 11:31:32 This meeting time good for folks? >Jul 13 11:31:37 LOL! >Jul 13 11:31:39 Don't you dare. >Jul 13 11:32:22 Fine by me! >Jul 13 11:32:31 fine with me, too > OK. Who's updating the wiki? >Jul 13 11:33:28 I said I`ll try :) > "Do, or do not. There is no try." :) >Jul 13 11:33:50 Do you have an account on the wiki yet? > No, I`ll do it, that`s for sure, but I don`t know if it is going to be good >Jul 13 11:34:21 Yes, I have > Don't worry. We'll clean it up if it's horrible. :) >Jul 13 11:34:42 great >Jul 13 11:34:46 Anything else that NEEDS to be done by next week? >Jul 13 11:35:14 I think we need to start deciding about the config file format >Jul 13 11:35:31 I want to create the opportunity for work in parallel >Jul 13 11:35:52 So who's working the config file format issue? >Jul 13 11:36:39 a write up of the tasks to be done >Jul 13 11:36:39 Again, I`ll write something, and I`ll send to the list, and you can tell if it is good or not >Jul 13 11:36:50 would be useful if you are planning to work on things together >Jul 13 11:38:12 OK, so. TODOs: >Jul 13 11:38:22 1. CVS access. Everyone go fill out your forms. >Jul 13 11:38:32 2. Update wiki. Darko. >Jul 13 11:38:40 3. Config file format proposal. Darko. >Jul 13 11:38:47 Any others for next week? >Jul 13 11:40:02 I hope to finish 2&3 sooner then next week... >Jul 13 11:40:05 :) >Jul 13 11:40:19 :) > Anyone else need anything by next week? Speak now or forever hold your peace... >Jul 13 11:40:50 So, when I finish 2&3, I`ll do something else, probably the part that comes after conf file creation... >Jul 13 11:41:10 and I`ll probably need some help, but I`ll use mailing list >Jul 13 11:41:23 Perfect. >Jul 13 11:41:44 Thanks all. See you next week. I'll send the transcipt to the list. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Fedora-livecd-list mailing list >Fedora-livecd-list at redhat.com >https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-livecd-list > > Hello, I have been busy getting ready for semester and I have a major amount of work on my plate at present, so I have NOT been involved with any discussions you have had. But I thought I should add my two cents worth anyway. Last week I built a Fedora Core 3 live CD toolkit to demonstrate how I would start building live CD images. I took some code from ADIOS project and created a toolkit which allowed me to take the standard Fedora Core Personal Workstation installation and convert it into a bootable CD. I have placed the toolkit at http://dc.qut.edu.au/yetaa Here you can download the adios-kernel and the yetaa toolkit (both to be in RPM format some time soon). This toolkit will enable users to build their own live CDs using the Fedora Core 3 installation CDs. The distribution is truely 0.1 in that I have not removed several errors or even tested the live and normal modes in the Makefile. My co-worker Mark Huth will hopefully remove the bugs such as it does not shutdown cleanly and then maybe I might start looking at a FC4 version. Please feel free to use any of my code as it is all GNU General Public License. -- regards Neville ----------------------------------------------------------------------- email: n.richter at qut.edu.au room: S745 Gardens Point phone: +61 7 3864 1928 fax: +61 7 3221 2384 web: http://dc.qut.edu.au/sedc/staff/neville_richter.html Neville Richter, Senior Lecturer School of Software Engineering & Data Communications Faculty of Information Technology Queensland University of Technology Box 2434 Brisbane 4001 AUSTRALIA From netdxr at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 05:38:10 2005 From: netdxr at gmail.com (Tom Lisjac) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:38:10 -0600 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Config file format proposal In-Reply-To: <552ca20305071715332ee2b428@mail.gmail.com> References: <552ca20305071715332ee2b428@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <863ff4520507172238ca7ea25@mail.gmail.com> On 7/17/05, Darko Ilic wrote: > Here`s my livecd config file format proposal. > > We`ve been talking about reusing kickstart file format, but I found > out that it`s not so good solution. Kickstart file doesn`t include > complete list of packages but keeps only list of groups to be included > and relies on comps.xml file and definitions of group members. The kickstart file format supports excluding files from the default base set and including individual packages from other groups. The "Package Selection" tab of the kickstart gui tool is currently group limited but could be enhanced to support individual selection. The post-install script can also be used to add and remove packages from a repository. The kickstart gui and file format provides a lot of other configuration information in addition to language and package selection. For dedicated enterprise applications, specific network and authentication methods may need to be built into the CD. Many other kickstart options and switches are available that can drive a fully automated image build with Anaconda. > So, please, propose some file layout that could have similar > structure but that can be easily parsed by both python application > that is supposed to generate it and bash script that is supposed to > read information from it. Several build approaches have been discussed on the list and via IRC. Just to clarify, have we abandoned the idea of using the kickstart gui for generating the build file and Anaconda for building the image? -Tom From darko.ilic at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 11:20:35 2005 From: darko.ilic at gmail.com (Darko Ilic) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:20:35 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated In-Reply-To: <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> Message-ID: <200507181320.35137.darko.ilic@gmail.com> On Saturday 16 July 2005 06:17, you wrote: > At least the (intermediate) compression ratio should be known: eg. for > zisofs it is ~ 1/3 of the original space required, so i think a static > divisor (perhaps with an additional failsafe 'minus 50 Mb' or somewhat > else) should work here. Agreed. > All modifications made to the system should be made via rpm packages that > allow install/uninstall (imho). > This way it is muchmore easier to 'root out' errors, as well as keeping the > system clean: the only difference between harddisk and livecd system would > be the presence of these rpms (imho :) > > If these packages are in the repo, the only thing to take care of would be > to make sure they` re always installed last. > (Either as last packages to be installed (eg. autoadded to the package list > by the installer) or via some postinstall function. Like the approach! > modifications.) > Perhaps toggleable by an config file option (like: usermodify=true ) ?? Agreed. > >overlay file system or a tmpfs for all directories that are writable, > > In my expirience, the best way to populate it at runtime is to use a > tar.gz : a ~64Mb tree compresses to ~8Mb and is extracted in ~4-6 seconds. > However my approach to move and re-symlink all runtimewritable parts > currently wrecks selinux :( though it is very easy to handle (just one > archive for ALL runtime writable directories) Is there any other way to do that? I`ve seen live CDs that use UnionFS, and it`s very elegant solution, but unionfs is not in the kernel... > > A2: Stripping out languages (what else can be deleted?) > > Perhaps a good part of /usr/share/doc - at least on a gui livecd. Yeah, I had that on my mind but wasn`t sure if it is a good idea.. > >Q: how to handle multiple repositories? Do all rpms need to be on the > > machine > > before installation? Well, sure they have to be on the machine before the installation, but I was wandering should remote repositories be supported, and I`ve decided in the meantime that they should. > >CD Config file (holding information related to the distro) > >list of packages > > >max image size > > + image type (CDROM: ->700Mb/DVD ->3,8Gb) ? Is there any difference between bootable CD iso and bootable DVD iso except max size? Darko From darko.ilic at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 11:26:39 2005 From: darko.ilic at gmail.com (Darko Ilic) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:26:39 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated In-Reply-To: <1121524416.18793.55.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> <1121524416.18793.55.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <200507181326.40024.darko.ilic@gmail.com> On Saturday 16 July 2005 16:33, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > on thing one should consider: with many DVDs around shouldn't we > concentrate on producing a DVD? There would be much lesser need to > compress. Live DVD is nice but Live CD is must-have (for many reasons)! And compression is not so big problem I think.. Darko From darko.ilic at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 11:47:43 2005 From: darko.ilic at gmail.com (Darko Ilic) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:47:43 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Config file format proposal In-Reply-To: <863ff4520507172238ca7ea25@mail.gmail.com> References: <552ca20305071715332ee2b428@mail.gmail.com> <863ff4520507172238ca7ea25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200507181347.43965.darko.ilic@gmail.com> On Monday 18 July 2005 07:38, Tom Lisjac wrote: > The kickstart file format supports excluding files from the default > base set and including individual packages from other groups. The Yes, but what if comps.xml changes? For example, type of package A could be changed from optional to mandatory, and we will have it included in our LiveCD without intetion... > The kickstart gui and file format provides a lot of other > configuration information in addition to language and package > selection. For dedicated enterprise applications, specific network and > authentication methods may need to be built into the CD. Many other > kickstart options and switches are available that can drive a fully > automated image build with Anaconda. But we decided that image build won`t be done by anaconda. The concept can be seen on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD. Darko From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jul 18 13:22:49 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:22:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Article for fedoranews.org ... In-Reply-To: <200507172131.37538.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> References: <200507172131.37538.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jul 2005, Dirk Westfal wrote: > Hi gentlemen, > > Thomas Chung of fedoranews.org asked me to write an article about how to > create a fedora core 4 based livecd. > > Since a short tutorial/some kind of proper design document was overdue, i > agreed. > > The article describes the concept i currently use as well as the buildprocess > (using a free harddisk partition - everything else seemed to dangerous ... > don`t want to be responsible for a hosed buildsystem because of some package > relocations running wild ...) > > For the article i`ve also recreated a basic set of (unsigned) rpms and moved > all modifications that are made to the system to per-package > install/uninstall.sh scripts as well as improving the integration into the > fedora core init process. > > I`ve also included a reference to the fedora livecd project. > > URL: http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Creating_a_Fedora_Core_4_livecd > > hoping not having done something inappropiate, > Dirk Awesome. The more eyes, the better. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jul 18 13:27:15 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Meeting minutes, 13 July 2005 In-Reply-To: <42DB1AC4.3020609@qut.edu.au> References: <42DB1AC4.3020609@qut.edu.au> Message-ID: Awesome, Neville. Thanks for the help. I know you've been busy. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, neville wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >Attached. > > > >--g > > > >_____________________ ____________________________________________ > > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >Jul 13 10:02:51 OK, looks like we've got a quorum. > >Jul 13 10:02:54 :) > >Jul 13 10:03:01 dwestfal: Introduce yourself. > >Jul 13 10:03:38 Hi, my Name is Dirk Westfal, I`m working as a network admin at a gonvernment related company in ffm/germany > >Jul 13 10:03:51 hi dirk, nice to meet you > >Jul 13 10:03:56 linux4all, right? > >Jul 13 10:04:05 right! > >Jul 13 10:04:28 since 3-4 years, I`m working on redhat based livecd`s. > >Jul 13 10:04:42 OK Dirk, I`m Darko, I`m SoC participant working on Fedora live cd project > >Jul 13 10:04:57 nice to meet, you! > >Jul 13 10:05:25 So darko, what's new to report? > > hi all > >Jul 13 10:06:15 I`ve been hacking anaconda these days > >Jul 13 10:06:38 but package selection in anaconda is in progress right now > >Jul 13 10:06:47 they are moving it to use yum backend > >Jul 13 10:07:05 so I should probably wait for them to finish that part of the job > >Jul 13 10:07:30 dwestfal, you've hacked on anaconda. What all can you do in your setup? > >Jul 13 10:07:51 My installer is a clone of the fc3 anaconda > >Jul 13 10:08:04 it currently supports all buildsteps neccessary to create a livecd > >Jul 13 10:08:11 you have an url with screen shots > >Jul 13 10:08:27 : installation of the master, creation of virtual harddisk, preparing the image, creating the iso > >Jul 13 10:08:50 only thing not working quite right is the creation of the iso initrd. > >Jul 13 10:09:30 The 'build logic' is nearly all working, but there are a lot of loose ends (progressbars etc.) > >Jul 13 10:09:51 I currently use it to build fc4 images from 3.98. > >Jul 13 10:10:41 I want to use anaconda just for package selection, other stuff should be in shell scripts so it could be run with cron > >Jul 13 10:11:07 why cron? > >Jul 13 10:11:45 seems like something that ought to be immediate > >Jul 13 10:12:42 Well, Sopwith wants to have a script that can generate livecd iso images out of the instalable tree, so it can be used on test repositories for example > >Jul 13 10:14:39 So I think then we need anacanda to write the config file. I guess we can have hooks for progress callback. > >Jul 13 10:14:55 Another script does the work > >Jul 13 10:15:24 * gregdek_home has wandered afk, kick me if you need me... > >Jul 13 10:16:32 Is there a cvs/svn repository somewhere (already) ? > >Jul 13 10:17:13 no, not yet I think > >Jul 13 10:17:37 The script to create the livecd : shell or python ? > >Jul 13 10:17:50 doesn`t metter, why? > >Jul 13 10:18:19 I think a lot of the 'create-the-livecd' functions could perhaps be taken from my modules > >Jul 13 10:18:36 Yeah, that`s what I hope.. :) > >Jul 13 10:19:19 language doesn't matter to me either. > >Jul 13 10:19:31 So we could run interactively and script-controlled > >Jul 13 10:19:51 yes, that would be nice > >Jul 13 10:20:02 agreed > >Jul 13 10:20:11 And it would avoid 'doubled engeneering' :) > >Jul 13 10:20:14 --> thl (~thl at thl.fedora) has joined #fedora-livecd > >Jul 13 10:23:14 So what do we need to do to start combining ? > >Jul 13 10:23:32 This seems like it can be worked in parallel > >Jul 13 10:23:33 cvs? > >Jul 13 10:23:39 svn ? > >Jul 13 10:23:50 I think fedora is on cvs > >Jul 13 10:23:58 then cvs, it is :) > >Jul 13 10:23:58 so, anyone talket to Sopwith? > >Jul 13 10:24:04 I have not yet. > >Jul 13 10:24:10 Wait, I have... > >Jul 13 10:24:17 ...but he's not moving immediately. > >Jul 13 10:24:21 Do we need to poke him now? > >Jul 13 10:24:27 yes > >Jul 13 10:24:34 OK, I'll do that. > >Jul 13 10:25:20 Also, what would expedite things is to come up with config file layout, etc. > >Jul 13 10:25:52 I think that it would be good to keep kickstart format > >Jul 13 10:26:01 what do you think? > >Jul 13 10:26:24 Ack. > >Jul 13 10:27:14 In the end, the only real difference to a harddisk based system would be the livecdrpms > >Jul 13 10:27:38 But aren't there things we need that are not in kickstart? image size for splitting, format, ext2,3,squashfs > >Jul 13 10:27:52 yeah, just to keep the format > >Jul 13 10:27:56 i thought.. > >Jul 13 10:28:12 image size, too. We want either cdrom or dvd > >Jul 13 10:28:42 But the bigest section is packages, and that sec could stay the same > >Jul 13 10:28:43 we need to be able to tell the package selection will not fit > >Jul 13 10:29:04 on givene media > >Jul 13 10:29:41 but at the point of package selection, we can just assume the size of iso, but we can not know, right? > >Jul 13 10:30:06 Right, it should be user selectable > >Jul 13 10:30:25 ? > >Jul 13 10:30:40 some people want dvd, some want cdrom. > >Jul 13 10:30:55 yeah > >Jul 13 10:31:03 Why penalize people with dvd burner if they want more packages > >Jul 13 10:31:18 perhaps we can reuse the diskspace-calculation function of anaconda ? > >Jul 13 10:31:41 we need to teach it about sqahfs, too. > >Jul 13 10:31:44 but can that func assume the size of squashfs image? > >Jul 13 10:31:48 sqashfs that is > >Jul 13 10:32:11 well - currently, i suppose not > >Jul 13 10:33:24 So, where do we put this extra config information > >Jul 13 10:34:02 why not to put everything in single conf file? > >Jul 13 10:34:04 Maybe a comment? > >Jul 13 10:34:26 would kickstart choke if it saw something it didn't understand? > >Jul 13 10:35:08 I am wanting to make sure that the file doesn't get used by accident with kickstart > >Jul 13 10:35:16 Perhaps an additional ks-format file ? (like ks-livecd.cfg) > >Jul 13 10:35:55 --> jeremy (~katzj at wlanconf-nat-pool-bos.redhat.com) has joined #fedora-livecd > >Jul 13 10:36:53 I am not familiar with kickstart format, is it easily extended to group the livecd config information? > >Jul 13 10:37:57 Well, I think we have jeremy here now, so maybe we can ask him ? :) > >Jul 13 10:40:40 Also, another config item...distro name. Do we want to allow people to give it a custome name? > >Jul 13 10:40:53 yes, I think > >Jul 13 10:41:13 me too - it`s quite important for the end-user. > >Jul 13 10:41:31 what other configurable items do we need? > >Jul 13 10:42:19 wether to use a swapfile or not ? maximum size of runtime writable space ? > >Jul 13 10:43:40 I think those are a little different in that they pertain to runtime of the resulting cd. They are good items, but are in a second category. > >Jul 13 10:44:19 yes, you`re right. > >Jul 13 10:44:48 These will go into a config file the loader will use > >Jul 13 10:45:32 Regarding image creation...is there anything else we need to collect? > >Jul 13 10:46:11 does kickstart file format include location of srpms? > >Jul 13 10:46:18 not srpms, rpms > >Jul 13 10:46:52 uh! > >Jul 13 10:47:02 does everything need to be downloaded and in 1 directory? > >Jul 13 10:47:31 instalable packages? > >Jul 13 10:47:43 yes > >Jul 13 10:47:53 hmm > >Jul 13 10:47:54 not neccessary: in 'my' anaconda clone, i just download the livecdrpms and use a network install source > >Jul 13 10:48:42 but packages are atill in the same repo? > >Jul 13 10:48:42 though to make it clear, our livecd cant really be stuff thats !in fedora. so no anaconda forks, right? > >Jul 13 10:49:24 right. the packages can of course be in the same repo. > >Jul 13 10:49:37 can, or must? > >Jul 13 10:50:01 can. It`s a design question : > >Jul 13 10:50:29 it depends on wether the livecd specific rpms are installed during a 'normal' install process, > >Jul 13 10:50:47 or as a 'post-install' task > >Jul 13 10:54:37 back to kickstart...do we need to know where to find packages > >Jul 13 10:54:47 no > >Jul 13 10:55:28 I think conf file should contain list of packages, and the script that creates livecd iso should have path-to-repo parametar > >Jul 13 10:55:29 So, then I guess we have 3 items we need to collect for image creation: format, size, name. > >Jul 13 10:55:52 what about multiple repos? > >Jul 13 10:56:17 we've all seen casper right? what Ubuntu use? we need to compete if not make that better imho > >Jul 13 10:56:21 I may have some of my own packages, fedora packages, extras, and some from another place. > >Jul 13 10:58:56 question: if we have a list of packages in conf file, and we give the script the list of repos, it could find all packages listed in conf file, right? > >Jul 13 10:59:13 should the list of packages take absolute path, or just the basename? > >Jul 13 11:00:28 I`ve just remebered something - in kickstart file packages are not listed > >Jul 13 11:00:29 In rookery, i solved it by using absolute path. I suppose we could have a list of dirs to look in to resolve rpms. > >Jul 13 11:01:02 there are a list of groups to be included + some extra packages to be included/excluded > >Jul 13 11:02:07 well, I new that, and that was fine, but what if we use conf file that was created on fc3 on fc4 repo, there could be some other packages included in our groups, so the size of the image would change.. > >Jul 13 11:02:51 Does package name include version number? > >Jul 13 11:02:59 no > >Jul 13 11:03:21 I wonder how you specify multiple kernels? > >Jul 13 11:04:39 * darkoilic is away: I`ll be right back > >Jul 13 11:05:33 --> Sopwith (~sopwith at nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #fedora-livecd > >Jul 13 11:07:22 hi Sopwith, there was some discussion earlier about cvs space for the livecd project > >Jul 13 11:07:54 * darkoilic is back > >Jul 13 11:08:24 sgrubb: Ahah, cool > >Jul 13 11:08:31 :) > >Jul 13 11:08:50 I can make it happen. > >Jul 13 11:11:13 someone kindly update http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD > >Jul 13 11:11:40 I think that would be a big help. I think we are final at a point where more than 1 person has code to contribute. > >Jul 13 11:15:55 Do we need to do any more coordination to combine Dirk's scripts? > >Jul 13 11:16:24 I haven`t seen his scripts... > >Jul 13 11:16:33 I`ve seen screenshots > >Jul 13 11:16:48 dwestfal, does your scripts currently support squashfs or is that easy to add? > >Jul 13 11:17:11 Not yet - I`ll have to check that. > >Jul 13 11:17:37 Is there a design doc somewhere that outlines the current concept of the fc-official livecd ? > >Jul 13 11:18:32 I would write one if some of you point me to some example how to do that > >Jul 13 11:19:15 darkoilic, start out with something > >Jul 13 11:19:25 darkoilic, write down the notes somewhere and put in the wiki > >Jul 13 11:19:31 I tought there is something like template.. > >Jul 13 11:19:34 darkoilic, we can improve upon that later > >Jul 13 11:19:41 OK > >Jul 13 11:19:47 I think I posted something like that to mail list a week or two ago. > >Jul 13 11:19:47 darkoilic, not really. you could see competing projects for examples > >Jul 13 11:20:05 I allready have some notes that I use... > >Jul 13 11:20:20 I`ll make them look better > >Jul 13 11:25:17 I need to get busy with some other work, do we have a consensus about the next steps? > >Jul 13 11:25:58 Well, I`ll take a look on dirk`s scripts, and I`ll also try to write something on wiki > >Jul 13 11:26:21 OK, so! > >Jul 13 11:26:32 I've been in a Fedora Foundation meeting! Double duty. > >Jul 13 11:26:41 Sounds like we're at "next steps"? > >Jul 13 11:26:50 * gregdek_home reads back... > >Jul 13 11:26:59 Also, if we can get current work into cvs, that would let Dirk see your scripts and start making integration plans. > >Jul 13 11:27:13 1. Get CVS access. Sopwith, how do we look there? > >Jul 13 11:27:14 yes, that would be great. > >Jul 13 11:27:27 Everyone needs to get accounts in the Fedora Account System, if you don't have them already. > >Jul 13 11:27:36 Does everyone understand how to do that? > >Jul 13 11:28:02 https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ > >Jul 13 11:28:14 Go to https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ and follow the instructions. I think I'll create a 'cvsdevel' group that is the one to join for this stuff. > >Jul 13 11:28:34 Not cvslivecd or somesuch? > >Jul 13 11:29:06 nm. You make the call. > >Jul 13 11:29:14 I want to create a /cvs/devel repo to hold all the SoC projects, and this is a good chance to do it. > >Jul 13 11:29:26 Okey doke. How long until people can go to the Accounts System? > >Jul 13 11:29:36 They can go right now. > >Jul 13 11:29:44 And you'll add group info later when it exists? > >Jul 13 11:30:14 I just added the group - feel free to apply for membership. > >Jul 13 11:30:34 Rock! > >Jul 13 11:30:41 Sopwith: EVERYONE GO APPLY NOW. > >Jul 13 11:31:01 (Damned stupid irc client changing So: to Sopwith:...) > >Jul 13 11:31:32 I need to change my nickname to Oklahoma... > >Jul 13 11:31:32 This meeting time good for folks? > >Jul 13 11:31:37 LOL! > >Jul 13 11:31:39 Don't you dare. > >Jul 13 11:32:22 Fine by me! > >Jul 13 11:32:31 fine with me, too > > OK. Who's updating the wiki? > >Jul 13 11:33:28 I said I`ll try :) > > "Do, or do not. There is no try." :) > >Jul 13 11:33:50 Do you have an account on the wiki yet? > > No, I`ll do it, that`s for sure, but I don`t know if it is going to be good > >Jul 13 11:34:21 Yes, I have > > Don't worry. We'll clean it up if it's horrible. :) > >Jul 13 11:34:42 great > >Jul 13 11:34:46 Anything else that NEEDS to be done by next week? > >Jul 13 11:35:14 I think we need to start deciding about the config file format > >Jul 13 11:35:31 I want to create the opportunity for work in parallel > >Jul 13 11:35:52 So who's working the config file format issue? > >Jul 13 11:36:39 a write up of the tasks to be done > >Jul 13 11:36:39 Again, I`ll write something, and I`ll send to the list, and you can tell if it is good or not > >Jul 13 11:36:50 would be useful if you are planning to work on things together > >Jul 13 11:38:12 OK, so. TODOs: > >Jul 13 11:38:22 1. CVS access. Everyone go fill out your forms. > >Jul 13 11:38:32 2. Update wiki. Darko. > >Jul 13 11:38:40 3. Config file format proposal. Darko. > >Jul 13 11:38:47 Any others for next week? > >Jul 13 11:40:02 I hope to finish 2&3 sooner then next week... > >Jul 13 11:40:05 :) > >Jul 13 11:40:19 :) > > Anyone else need anything by next week? Speak now or forever hold your peace... > >Jul 13 11:40:50 So, when I finish 2&3, I`ll do something else, probably the part that comes after conf file creation... > >Jul 13 11:41:10 and I`ll probably need some help, but I`ll use mailing list > >Jul 13 11:41:23 Perfect. > >Jul 13 11:41:44 Thanks all. See you next week. I'll send the transcipt to the list. > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >-- > >Fedora-livecd-list mailing list > >Fedora-livecd-list at redhat.com > >https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-livecd-list > > > > > Hello, > > I have been busy getting ready for semester and I have a major amount of > work on my plate at present, so I have NOT been involved with any > discussions you have had. But I thought I should add my two cents worth > anyway. Last week I built a Fedora Core 3 live CD toolkit to > demonstrate how I would start building live CD images. I took some code > from ADIOS project and created a toolkit which allowed me to take the > standard Fedora Core Personal Workstation installation and convert it > into a bootable CD. I have placed the toolkit at > > http://dc.qut.edu.au/yetaa > > Here you can download the adios-kernel and the yetaa toolkit (both to be > in RPM format some time soon). This toolkit will enable users to build > their own live CDs using the Fedora Core 3 installation CDs. The > distribution is truely 0.1 in that I have not removed several errors or > even tested the live and normal modes in the Makefile. My co-worker > Mark Huth will hopefully remove the bugs such as it does not shutdown > cleanly and then maybe I might start looking at a FC4 version. > > Please feel free to use any of my code as it is all GNU General Public > License. > > -- > > regards Neville > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > email: n.richter at qut.edu.au room: S745 Gardens Point > phone: +61 7 3864 1928 fax: +61 7 3221 2384 > web: http://dc.qut.edu.au/sedc/staff/neville_richter.html > > Neville Richter, Senior Lecturer > School of Software Engineering & Data Communications > Faculty of Information Technology > Queensland University of Technology > Box 2434 Brisbane 4001 AUSTRALIA > > -- > Fedora-livecd-list mailing list > Fedora-livecd-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-livecd-list > From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jul 18 13:33:16 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:33:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated In-Reply-To: <200507181326.40024.darko.ilic@gmail.com> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> <1121524416.18793.55.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <200507181326.40024.darko.ilic@gmail.com> Message-ID: Let's focus on CD for now. There's no reason why DVD shouldn't fall out of the same project for free. In 3 years, every project will be a live DVD project, and there's very little difference between the two technically. We'll get there in plenty of time. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Darko Ilic wrote: > On Saturday 16 July 2005 16:33, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > > on thing one should consider: with many DVDs around shouldn't we > > concentrate on producing a DVD? There would be much lesser need to > > compress. > > Live DVD is nice but Live CD is must-have (for many reasons)! And compression > is not so big problem I think.. > > Darko > > -- > Fedora-livecd-list mailing list > Fedora-livecd-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-livecd-list > From tp at alternativ.net Mon Jul 18 14:57:53 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:57:53 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated In-Reply-To: <200507181326.40024.darko.ilic@gmail.com> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> <1121524416.18793.55.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <200507181326.40024.darko.ilic@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1121698673.3013.50.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Montag, den 18.07.2005, 13:26 +0200 schrieb Darko Ilic: > Live DVD is nice but Live CD is must-have (for many reasons)! Would you mind telling me some of the main reasons? If you mean that many people do not have a DVD: I think this has changed dramatically in recent years - and Fedora is not optimised for old computers. Thilo -- http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci Jabber: vinci at jabber.org From sgrubb at redhat.com Mon Jul 18 15:35:02 2005 From: sgrubb at redhat.com (Steve Grubb) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:35:02 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated In-Reply-To: <1121698673.3013.50.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507181326.40024.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <1121698673.3013.50.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <200507181135.02326.sgrubb@redhat.com> On Monday 18 July 2005 10:57, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Would you mind telling me some of the main reasons? CD Rom is common among more machines than DVD. I for one do not have a DVD rom at all. > If you mean that many people do not have a DVD: I think this has changed > dramatically in recent years - and Fedora is not optimised for old > computers. But it does not to work on the people's computer that are writing the software for you. :) I think the idea is that we want to have a parameter that is user configurable that will tell you when you have picked too many packages for your target media. This way one could use mini CD disks, CD Rom, DVD, or even USB flash drives. I think the intent is to allow users to pick their distribution media. -Steve From dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de Mon Jul 18 22:15:35 2005 From: dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de (Dirk Westfal) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:15:35 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated In-Reply-To: <200507181320.35137.darko.ilic@gmail.com> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> <200507181320.35137.darko.ilic@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200507181815.35349.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> On Monday 18 July 2005 07:20, Darko Ilic wrote: > On Saturday 16 July 2005 06:17, you wrote: ... > > However my approach to move and re-symlink all runtimewritable > > parts currently wrecks selinux :( though it is very easy to handle (just > > one archive for ALL runtime writable directories) As i got to know today from a redhat guy working on security this is no longer the case - haven`t checked that yet, but perhaps Steve can say something about it ? > Is there any other way to do that? I`ve seen live CDs that use UnionFS, and > it`s very elegant solution, but unionfs is not in the kernel... ... which is the problem. I (would) avoid any changes to the kernel, or at least provide an unchanged and a union-fs enabled one, supporting both methods for runtime-writable space. (writable fs parts still would have to be under one 'tmpfs - parent' directory ). Union-fs in the default fc kernel would be wonderfull, but i don`t think this will happen in near future ? > > > A2: Stripping out languages (what else can be deleted?) > > > > Perhaps a good part of /usr/share/doc - at least on a gui livecd. > > Yeah, I had that on my mind but wasn`t sure if it is a good idea.. Would be nice to be able to reference /usr/share/doc to a network source. Another candidate to safe space is /usr/share/locale - i have it reduced to ~55Mb by removing all unsupported languages, but I don`t think this can be done with an official livecd (which is expected to support eg. japanese and russian). > > >Q: how to handle multiple repositories? Do all rpms need to be on the > > > machine before installation? > > Well, sure they have to be on the machine before the installation, but I > was wandering should remote repositories be supported, and I`ve decided in > the meantime that they should. Agreed. :) > Is there any difference between bootable CD iso and bootable DVD iso except > max size? None that i know of. > > Darko Dirk From dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de Mon Jul 18 22:19:04 2005 From: dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de (Dirk Westfal) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:19:04 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated In-Reply-To: <200507181326.40024.darko.ilic@gmail.com> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <1121524416.18793.55.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <200507181326.40024.darko.ilic@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200507181819.04837.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> On Monday 18 July 2005 07:26, Darko Ilic wrote: > On Saturday 16 July 2005 16:33, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > > on thing one should consider: with many DVDs around shouldn't we > > concentrate on producing a DVD? There would be much lesser need to > > compress. > > Live DVD is nice but Live CD is must-have (for many reasons)! Yes ! > And compression is not so big problem I think.. I`ve even expirienced compressed images to be slightly faster than uncompressed one - provided one has a fast processor. On the other hand the maximum for a 700Mb Cdrom is an image filled with 1,8 GB data. > Darko > Dirk From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jul 18 16:20:17 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] wiki page updated In-Reply-To: <200507181815.35349.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> References: <200507151837.41457.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507160017.54497.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> <200507181320.35137.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <200507181815.35349.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Dirk Westfal wrote: > > > > A2: Stripping out languages (what else can be deleted?) > > > > > > Perhaps a good part of /usr/share/doc - at least on a gui livecd. > > > > Yeah, I had that on my mind but wasn`t sure if it is a good idea.. > > Would be nice to be able to reference /usr/share/doc to a network source. > > Another candidate to safe space is /usr/share/locale - i have it reduced to > ~55Mb by removing all unsupported languages, but I don`t think this can be > done with an official livecd (which is expected to support eg. japanese and > russian). Depending on the amount of savings, we could also consider making many single-language versions. Doesn't Knoppix do this? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From katzj at redhat.com Mon Jul 18 19:04:58 2005 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:04:58 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Config file format proposal In-Reply-To: <200507181347.43965.darko.ilic@gmail.com> References: <552ca20305071715332ee2b428@mail.gmail.com> <863ff4520507172238ca7ea25@mail.gmail.com> <200507181347.43965.darko.ilic@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1121713498.13479.21.camel@bree.local.net> On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 13:47 +0200, Darko Ilic wrote: > On Monday 18 July 2005 07:38, Tom Lisjac wrote: > > The kickstart file format supports excluding files from the default > > base set and including individual packages from other groups. The > > Yes, but what if comps.xml changes? For example, type of package A could be > changed from optional to mandatory, and we will have it included in our > LiveCD without intetion... Unless you're planning on ignoring package dependencies, the same could happen due to packages having new dependencies. Going off and defining your own thing is likely to make things far less adaptive as changes occur to Fedora Core as now instead of just the comps file having to change, the live cd stuff will need to change also. > > The kickstart gui and file format provides a lot of other > > configuration information in addition to language and package > > selection. For dedicated enterprise applications, specific network and > > authentication methods may need to be built into the CD. Many other > > kickstart options and switches are available that can drive a fully > > automated image build with Anaconda. > > But we decided that image build won`t be done by anaconda. The concept can be > seen on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD. This means that you're going to have to be able to duplicate all of the setup types of tasks which anaconda does as well as duplicate all of the system level setup changes which occur on a per release basis :/ Jeremy From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jul 18 19:39:05 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:39:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Config file format proposal In-Reply-To: <1121713498.13479.21.camel@bree.local.net> References: <552ca20305071715332ee2b428@mail.gmail.com> <863ff4520507172238ca7ea25@mail.gmail.com> <200507181347.43965.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <1121713498.13479.21.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: All right, so we immediately have a philosophical question, right up front, that we must address: Should we use anaconda wherever possible? And are we making a mistake by not using anaconda? The upside of using anaconda is that it's the center of a whole bunch of stuff, and it's guaranteed to be maintained going forward. What are the downsides of using anaconda? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 13:47 +0200, Darko Ilic wrote: > > On Monday 18 July 2005 07:38, Tom Lisjac wrote: > > > The kickstart file format supports excluding files from the default > > > base set and including individual packages from other groups. The > > > > Yes, but what if comps.xml changes? For example, type of package A could be > > changed from optional to mandatory, and we will have it included in our > > LiveCD without intetion... > > Unless you're planning on ignoring package dependencies, the same could > happen due to packages having new dependencies. Going off and defining > your own thing is likely to make things far less adaptive as changes > occur to Fedora Core as now instead of just the comps file having to > change, the live cd stuff will need to change also. > > > > The kickstart gui and file format provides a lot of other > > > configuration information in addition to language and package > > > selection. For dedicated enterprise applications, specific network and > > > authentication methods may need to be built into the CD. Many other > > > kickstart options and switches are available that can drive a fully > > > automated image build with Anaconda. > > > > But we decided that image build won`t be done by anaconda. The concept can be > > seen on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD. > > This means that you're going to have to be able to duplicate all of the > setup types of tasks which anaconda does as well as duplicate all of the > system level setup changes which occur on a per release basis :/ > > Jeremy > > -- > Fedora-livecd-list mailing list > Fedora-livecd-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-livecd-list > From dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de Tue Jul 19 02:26:40 2005 From: dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de (Dirk Westfal) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:26:40 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Config file format proposal In-Reply-To: <1121713498.13479.21.camel@bree.local.net> References: <552ca20305071715332ee2b428@mail.gmail.com> <200507181347.43965.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <1121713498.13479.21.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: <200507182226.41170.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> On Monday 18 July 2005 15:04, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 13:47 +0200, Darko Ilic wrote: > > > > > But we decided that image build won`t be done by anaconda. The concept > > can be seen on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD. > > This means that you're going to have to be able to duplicate all of the > setup types of tasks which anaconda does as well as duplicate all of the > system level setup changes which occur on a per release basis :/ That was one of the reasons for me to 'clone' anaconda: to try to develop modules that could be used as some kind of 'snap in' to extend the normal (and thoroughly tested) install process with functions to put that installation into a livecd. Since anaconda provides everything to safely install into a dircetory/harddisk from a parent system... well - one of my secret dreams was (is?) to have 'livecdinstall' as just another type of install aviable in anaconda ... Perhaps it is possible to use the anaconda codebase at least for the initial installation of the 'master' system - even if the livecd-installer is not included in anaconda (and does not have any gui/wizards): The image creation would be run by an external script - as defined in the concept. Imho that could/would safe a lot of manpower: we get a proper install 'for free' and just have to create the tool to modify and put it onto a cd/dvd media. With two configfiles (one beeing the default kickstart and one as the livecd-build config file) we would also guarantee that every livecd system can easely be installed to harddisk. > Jeremy Dirk *leaning out of the window, so hit me now* Westfal From dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de Tue Jul 19 02:49:32 2005 From: dirk.westfal at frankfurter-verein.de (Dirk Westfal) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:49:32 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Article for fedoranews.org ... In-Reply-To: References: <200507172131.37538.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> Message-ID: <200507182249.34079.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> On Monday 18 July 2005 09:22, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jul 2005, Dirk Westfal wrote: > > Hi gentlemen, ... > Awesome. The more eyes, the better. > *Phew* :) ! Thanks! Dirk From netdxr at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 23:39:25 2005 From: netdxr at gmail.com (Tom Lisjac) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:39:25 -0600 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Config file format proposal In-Reply-To: References: <552ca20305071715332ee2b428@mail.gmail.com> <863ff4520507172238ca7ea25@mail.gmail.com> <200507181347.43965.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <1121713498.13479.21.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: <863ff4520507181639668350ae@mail.gmail.com> On 7/18/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Should we use anaconda wherever possible? And are we making a mistake by > not using anaconda? Anaconda/kickstart already does 98% of the heavy lifting that's needed for a top quality CD build tool. Taking a little more time to discuss it might keep us from reinventing the wheel. I think it's a good choice because: - it can accept a flexible config file and produce highly customized images from a variety of package repositories. - it has a gui for building images interactively for both the configuration and build phases. - it's an existing, production quality system that is well known, widely used and thoroughly documented. - it can execute pre and post install scripts (using any interpreter) to provide CD image customization to any degree that is needed. > What are the downsides of using anaconda? It will have to be modified. It's always more fun to start with a blank page rather then modify somebody else's code. Unfortunately many new and creative ideas get stuck inside buggy, half finished projects because building, refining and documenting a complete package like Anaconda is a *lot* of work. The bottom line is how much time do we have to get this project finished... and how much of that time should be spent duplicating large portions of an existing system that a lot of people already use and like? -Tom From n.richter at qut.edu.au Tue Jul 19 02:48:01 2005 From: n.richter at qut.edu.au (neville) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:48:01 +1000 Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Config file format proposal In-Reply-To: <200507182226.41170.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> References: <552ca20305071715332ee2b428@mail.gmail.com> <200507181347.43965.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <1121713498.13479.21.camel@bree.local.net> <200507182226.41170.dirk.westfal@frankfurter-verein.de> Message-ID: <42DC69E1.2060706@qut.edu.au> Dirk Westfal wrote: >On Monday 18 July 2005 15:04, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > >>On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 13:47 +0200, Darko Ilic wrote: >> >> >> >>>But we decided that image build won`t be done by anaconda. The concept >>>can be seen on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD. >>> >>> >>This means that you're going to have to be able to duplicate all of the >>setup types of tasks which anaconda does as well as duplicate all of the >>system level setup changes which occur on a per release basis :/ >> >> > >That was one of the reasons for me to 'clone' anaconda: to try to develop >modules that could be used as some kind of 'snap in' to extend the normal >(and thoroughly tested) install process with functions to put that >installation into a livecd. > >Since anaconda provides everything to safely install into a dircetory/harddisk >from a parent system... well - one of my secret dreams was (is?) to have >'livecdinstall' as just another type of install aviable in anaconda ... > >Perhaps it is possible to use the anaconda codebase at least for the initial >installation of the 'master' system - even if the livecd-installer is not >included in anaconda (and does not have any gui/wizards): >The image creation would be run by an external script - as defined in the >concept. > >Imho that could/would safe a lot of manpower: we get a proper install 'for >free' and just have to create the tool to modify and put it onto a cd/dvd >media. > >With two configfiles (one beeing the default kickstart and one as the >livecd-build config file) we would also guarantee that every livecd system >can easely be installed to harddisk. > > > >>Jeremy >> >> > >Dirk *leaning out of the window, so hit me now* Westfal > >-- >Fedora-livecd-list mailing list >Fedora-livecd-list at redhat.com >https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-livecd-list > > Hello, You should just use as much as possible the Fedora Core installation scripts. Just add an extra RPM (to the Fedora Core distribution) to replace the kernel with a bootcd kernel (which supports unionfs and squashfs), and an RPM containing the busybox startup stuff (I am working on this for the yataa project, I have made the bootcd kernel RPM and will soon start the bootcd RPM) see http://dc.qut.edu.au/yetaa -- regards Neville ----------------------------------------------------------------------- email: n.richter at qut.edu.au room: S745 Gardens Point phone: +61 7 3864 1928 fax: +61 7 3221 2384 web: http://dc.qut.edu.au/sedc/staff/neville_richter.html Neville Richter, Senior Lecturer School of Software Engineering & Data Communications Faculty of Information Technology Queensland University of Technology Box 2434 Brisbane 4001 AUSTRALIA From kaboom at oobleck.net Tue Jul 19 12:27:19 2005 From: kaboom at oobleck.net (Chris Ricker) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-livecd-list] Config file format proposal In-Reply-To: <1121713498.13479.21.camel@bree.local.net> References: <552ca20305071715332ee2b428@mail.gmail.com> <863ff4520507172238ca7ea25@mail.gmail.com> <200507181347.43965.darko.ilic@gmail.com> <1121713498.13479.21.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > But we decided that image build won`t be done by anaconda. The concept can be > > seen on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD. > > This means that you're going to have to be able to duplicate all of the > setup types of tasks which anaconda does as well as duplicate all of the > system level setup changes which occur on a per release basis :/ Also, it seems to me that at least in some respects changes to anaconda for CD aren't that different from changes to anaconda for populating Zen images.... later, chris