[Fedora-livecd-list] Meeting minutes, 13 July 2005

neville n.richter at qut.edu.au
Mon Jul 18 02:58:12 UTC 2005

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:

>_____________________  ____________________________________________
>  Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
> Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent.  the
>             Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the 
>                     ] [ dumb.  --mcluhan
>Jul 13 10:02:51 <gregdek_home>	OK, looks like we've got a quorum.
>Jul 13 10:02:54 <darkoilic>	:)
>Jul 13 10:03:01 <gregdek_home>	dwestfal: Introduce yourself.
>Jul 13 10:03:38 <dwestfal>	Hi, my Name is Dirk Westfal, I`m working as a network admin at a gonvernment related company in ffm/germany
>Jul 13 10:03:51 <darkoilic>	hi dirk, nice to meet you
>Jul 13 10:03:56 <darkoilic>	linux4all, right?
>Jul 13 10:04:05 <dwestfal>	right!
>Jul 13 10:04:28 <dwestfal>	since 3-4 years, I`m working on redhat based livecd`s. 
>Jul 13 10:04:42 <darkoilic>	OK Dirk, I`m Darko, I`m SoC participant working on Fedora live cd project
>Jul 13 10:04:57 <dwestfal>	nice to meet, you!
>Jul 13 10:05:25 <gregdek_home>	So darko, what's new to report?
><bytee_>	hi all
>Jul 13 10:06:15 <darkoilic>	I`ve been hacking anaconda these days
>Jul 13 10:06:38 <darkoilic>	but package selection in anaconda is in progress right now
>Jul 13 10:06:47 <darkoilic>	they are moving it to use yum backend
>Jul 13 10:07:05 <darkoilic>	so I should probably wait for them to finish that part of the job
>Jul 13 10:07:30 <sgrubb>	dwestfal, you've hacked on anaconda. What all can you do in your setup?
>Jul 13 10:07:51 <dwestfal>	My installer is a clone of the fc3 anaconda
>Jul 13 10:08:04 <dwestfal>	it currently supports all buildsteps neccessary to create a livecd
>Jul 13 10:08:11 <sgrubb>	you have an url with screen shots
>Jul 13 10:08:27 <dwestfal>	: installation of the master, creation of virtual harddisk, preparing the image, creating the iso
>Jul 13 10:08:50 <dwestfal>	only thing not working quite right is the creation of the iso initrd. 
>Jul 13 10:09:30 <dwestfal>	The 'build logic' is nearly all working, but there are a lot of loose ends (progressbars etc.)
>Jul 13 10:09:51 <dwestfal>	I currently use it to build fc4 images from 3.98. 
>Jul 13 10:10:41 <darkoilic>	I want to use anaconda just for package selection, other stuff should be in shell scripts so it could be run with cron
>Jul 13 10:11:07 <sgrubb>	why cron?
>Jul 13 10:11:45 <sgrubb>	seems like something that ought to be immediate
>Jul 13 10:12:42 <darkoilic>	Well, Sopwith wants to have a script that can generate livecd iso images out of the instalable tree, so it can be used on test repositories for example
>Jul 13 10:14:39 <sgrubb>	So I think then we need anacanda to write the config file. I guess we can have hooks for progress callback.
>Jul 13 10:14:55 <sgrubb>	Another script does the work
>Jul 13 10:15:24 *	gregdek_home has wandered afk, kick me if you need me...
>Jul 13 10:16:32 <dwestfal>	Is there a cvs/svn repository somewhere (already) ?
>Jul 13 10:17:13 <darkoilic>	no, not yet I think
>Jul 13 10:17:37 <dwestfal>	The script to create the livecd : shell or python ? 
>Jul 13 10:17:50 <darkoilic>	doesn`t metter, why?
>Jul 13 10:18:19 <dwestfal>	I think a lot of the 'create-the-livecd' functions could perhaps be taken from my modules 
>Jul 13 10:18:36 <darkoilic>	Yeah, that`s what I hope.. :)
>Jul 13 10:19:19 <sgrubb>	language doesn't matter to me either.
>Jul 13 10:19:31 <dwestfal>	So we could run interactively and script-controlled 
>Jul 13 10:19:51 <darkoilic>	yes, that would be nice
>Jul 13 10:20:02 <sgrubb>	agreed
>Jul 13 10:20:11 <dwestfal>	And it would avoid 'doubled engeneering' :)
>Jul 13 10:20:14 -->	thl (~thl at thl.fedora) has joined #fedora-livecd
>Jul 13 10:23:14 <sgrubb>	So what do we need to do to start combining ?
>Jul 13 10:23:32 <sgrubb>	This seems like it can be worked in parallel
>Jul 13 10:23:33 <darkoilic>	cvs?
>Jul 13 10:23:39 <dwestfal>	svn ? 
>Jul 13 10:23:50 <darkoilic>	I think fedora is on cvs
>Jul 13 10:23:58 <dwestfal>	then cvs, it is :)
>Jul 13 10:23:58 <darkoilic>	so, anyone talket to Sopwith?
>Jul 13 10:24:04 <gregdek_home>	I have not yet.
>Jul 13 10:24:10 <gregdek_home>	Wait, I have...
>Jul 13 10:24:17 <gregdek_home>	...but he's not moving immediately.
>Jul 13 10:24:21 <gregdek_home>	Do we need to poke him now?
>Jul 13 10:24:27 <sgrubb>	yes
>Jul 13 10:24:34 <gregdek_home>	OK, I'll do that.
>Jul 13 10:25:20 <sgrubb>	Also, what would expedite things is to come up with config file layout, etc.
>Jul 13 10:25:52 <darkoilic>	I think that it would be good to keep kickstart format
>Jul 13 10:26:01 <darkoilic>	what do you think?
>Jul 13 10:26:24 <dwestfal>	Ack. 
>Jul 13 10:27:14 <dwestfal>	In the end, the only real difference to a harddisk based system would be the livecdrpms 
>Jul 13 10:27:38 <sgrubb>	But aren't there things we need that are not in kickstart? image size for splitting, format, ext2,3,squashfs
>Jul 13 10:27:52 <darkoilic>	yeah, just to keep the format
>Jul 13 10:27:56 <darkoilic>	i thought..
>Jul 13 10:28:12 <sgrubb>	image size, too. We want either cdrom or dvd
>Jul 13 10:28:42 <darkoilic>	But the bigest section is packages, and that sec could stay the same
>Jul 13 10:28:43 <sgrubb>	we need to be able to tell the package selection will not fit
>Jul 13 10:29:04 <sgrubb>	on givene media
>Jul 13 10:29:41 <darkoilic>	but at the point of package selection, we can just assume the size of iso, but we can not know, right?
>Jul 13 10:30:06 <sgrubb>	Right, it should be user selectable
>Jul 13 10:30:25 <darkoilic>	?
>Jul 13 10:30:40 <sgrubb>	some people want dvd, some want cdrom.
>Jul 13 10:30:55 <darkoilic>	yeah
>Jul 13 10:31:03 <sgrubb>	Why penalize people with dvd burner if they want more packages
>Jul 13 10:31:18 <dwestfal>	perhaps we can reuse the diskspace-calculation function of anaconda ?
>Jul 13 10:31:41 <sgrubb>	we need to teach it about sqahfs, too.
>Jul 13 10:31:44 <darkoilic>	but can that func assume the size of squashfs image?
>Jul 13 10:31:48 <sgrubb>	sqashfs that is
>Jul 13 10:32:11 <dwestfal>	well - currently, i suppose not
>Jul 13 10:33:24 <sgrubb>	So, where do we put this extra config information
>Jul 13 10:34:02 <darkoilic>	why not to put everything in single conf file?
>Jul 13 10:34:04 <sgrubb>	Maybe a comment?
>Jul 13 10:34:26 <sgrubb>	would kickstart choke if it saw something it didn't understand?
>Jul 13 10:35:08 <sgrubb>	I am wanting to make sure that the file doesn't get used by accident with kickstart
>Jul 13 10:35:16 <dwestfal>	Perhaps an additional ks-format file ? (like ks-livecd.cfg) 
>Jul 13 10:35:55 -->	jeremy (~katzj at wlanconf-nat-pool-bos.redhat.com) has joined #fedora-livecd
>Jul 13 10:36:53 <sgrubb>	I am not familiar with kickstart format, is it easily extended to group the livecd config information?
>Jul 13 10:37:57 <darkoilic>	Well, I think we have jeremy here now, so maybe we can ask him ? :)
>Jul 13 10:40:40 <sgrubb>	Also, another config item...distro name. Do we want to allow people to give it a custome name?
>Jul 13 10:40:53 <darkoilic>	yes, I think
>Jul 13 10:41:13 <dwestfal>	me too - it`s quite important for the end-user. 
>Jul 13 10:41:31 <sgrubb>	what other configurable items do we need?
>Jul 13 10:42:19 <dwestfal>	wether to use a swapfile or not ? maximum size of runtime writable space ? 
>Jul 13 10:43:40 <sgrubb>	I think those are a little different in that they pertain to runtime of the resulting cd. They are good items, but are in a second category.
>Jul 13 10:44:19 <dwestfal>	yes, you`re right. 
>Jul 13 10:44:48 <sgrubb>	These will go into a config file the loader will use
>Jul 13 10:45:32 <sgrubb>	Regarding image creation...is there anything else we need to collect?
>Jul 13 10:46:11 <sgrubb>	does kickstart file format include location of srpms?
>Jul 13 10:46:18 <sgrubb>	not srpms, rpms
>Jul 13 10:46:52 <darkoilic>	uh!
>Jul 13 10:47:02 <sgrubb>	does everything need to be downloaded and in 1 directory?
>Jul 13 10:47:31 <darkoilic>	instalable packages?
>Jul 13 10:47:43 <sgrubb>	yes
>Jul 13 10:47:53 <darkoilic>	hmm
>Jul 13 10:47:54 <dwestfal>	not neccessary: in 'my' anaconda clone, i just download the livecdrpms and use a network install source
>Jul 13 10:48:42 <darkoilic>	but packages are atill in the same repo?
>Jul 13 10:48:42 <bytee_>	though to make it clear, our livecd cant really be stuff thats !in fedora. so no anaconda forks, right?
>Jul 13 10:49:24 <dwestfal>	right. the packages can of course be in the same repo. 
>Jul 13 10:49:37 <darkoilic>	can, or must?
>Jul 13 10:50:01 <dwestfal>	can. It`s a design question : 
>Jul 13 10:50:29 <dwestfal>	it depends on wether the livecd specific rpms are installed during a 'normal' install process,
>Jul 13 10:50:47 <dwestfal>	or as a 'post-install' task
>Jul 13 10:54:37 <sgrubb>	back to kickstart...do we need to know where to find packages
>Jul 13 10:54:47 <darkoilic>	no
>Jul 13 10:55:28 <darkoilic>	I think conf file should contain list of packages, and the script that creates livecd iso should have path-to-repo parametar
>Jul 13 10:55:29 <sgrubb>	So, then I guess we have 3 items we need to collect for image creation: format, size, name.
>Jul 13 10:55:52 <sgrubb>	what about multiple repos?
>Jul 13 10:56:17 <bytee_>	we've all seen casper right? what Ubuntu use? we need to compete if not make that better imho
>Jul 13 10:56:21 <sgrubb>	I may have some of my own packages, fedora packages, extras, and some from another place.
>Jul 13 10:58:56 <darkoilic>	question: if we have a list of packages in conf file, and we give the script the list of repos, it could find all packages listed in conf file, right?
>Jul 13 10:59:13 <sgrubb>	should the list of packages take absolute path, or just the basename?
>Jul 13 11:00:28 <darkoilic>	I`ve just remebered something - in kickstart file packages are not listed
>Jul 13 11:00:29 <sgrubb>	In rookery, i solved it by using absolute path. I suppose we could have a list of dirs to look in to resolve rpms.
>Jul 13 11:01:02 <darkoilic>	there are a list of groups to be included + some extra packages to be included/excluded
>Jul 13 11:02:07 <darkoilic>	well, I new that, and that was fine, but what if we use conf file that was created on fc3 on fc4 repo, there could be some other packages included in our groups, so the size of the image would change..
>Jul 13 11:02:51 <sgrubb>	Does package name include version number?
>Jul 13 11:02:59 <darkoilic>	no
>Jul 13 11:03:21 <sgrubb>	I wonder how you specify multiple kernels?
>Jul 13 11:04:39 *	darkoilic is away: I`ll be right back
>Jul 13 11:05:33 -->	Sopwith (~sopwith at nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #fedora-livecd
>Jul 13 11:07:22 <sgrubb>	hi Sopwith, there was some discussion earlier about cvs space for the livecd project
>Jul 13 11:07:54 *	darkoilic is back
>Jul 13 11:08:24 <Sopwith>	sgrubb: Ahah, cool
>Jul 13 11:08:31 <darkoilic>	:)
>Jul 13 11:08:50 <Sopwith>	I can make it happen.
>Jul 13 11:11:13 <mether>	someone kindly update http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD
>Jul 13 11:11:40 <sgrubb>	I think that would be a big help. I think we are final at a point where more than 1 person has code to contribute.
>Jul 13 11:15:55 <sgrubb>	Do we need to do any more coordination to combine Dirk's scripts?
>Jul 13 11:16:24 <darkoilic>	I haven`t seen his scripts...
>Jul 13 11:16:33 <darkoilic>	I`ve seen screenshots
>Jul 13 11:16:48 <sgrubb>	dwestfal, does your scripts currently support squashfs or is that easy to add?
>Jul 13 11:17:11 <dwestfal>	Not yet - I`ll have to check that.
>Jul 13 11:17:37 <dwestfal>	Is there a design doc somewhere that outlines the current concept of the fc-official livecd ?
>Jul 13 11:18:32 <darkoilic>	I would write one if some of you point me to some example how to do that
>Jul 13 11:19:15 <mether>	darkoilic, start out with something
>Jul 13 11:19:25 <mether>	darkoilic, write down the notes somewhere and put in the wiki
>Jul 13 11:19:31 <darkoilic>	I tought there is something like template..
>Jul 13 11:19:34 <mether>	darkoilic, we can improve upon that later
>Jul 13 11:19:41 <darkoilic>	OK
>Jul 13 11:19:47 <sgrubb>	I think I posted something like that to mail list a week or two ago.
>Jul 13 11:19:47 <mether>	darkoilic, not really. you could see competing projects for examples
>Jul 13 11:20:05 <darkoilic>	I allready have some notes that I use...
>Jul 13 11:20:20 <darkoilic>	I`ll make them look better
>Jul 13 11:25:17 <sgrubb>	I need to get busy with some other work, do we have a consensus about the next steps?
>Jul 13 11:25:58 <darkoilic>	Well, I`ll take a look on dirk`s scripts, and I`ll also try to write something on wiki
>Jul 13 11:26:21 <gregdek_home>	OK, so!
>Jul 13 11:26:32 <gregdek_home>	I've been in a Fedora Foundation meeting!  Double duty.
>Jul 13 11:26:41 <gregdek_home>	Sounds like we're at "next steps"?
>Jul 13 11:26:50 *	gregdek_home reads back...
>Jul 13 11:26:59 <sgrubb>	Also, if we can get current work into cvs, that would let Dirk see your scripts and start making integration plans.
>Jul 13 11:27:13 <gregdek_home>	1. Get CVS access.  Sopwith, how do we look there?
>Jul 13 11:27:14 <dwestfal>	yes, that would be great.
>Jul 13 11:27:27 <Sopwith>	Everyone needs to get accounts in the Fedora Account System, if you don't have them already.
>Jul 13 11:27:36 <gregdek_home>	Does everyone understand how to do that?
>Jul 13 11:28:02 <gregdek_home>	https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/
>Jul 13 11:28:14 <Sopwith>	Go to https://admin.fedora.redhat.com/accounts/ and follow the instructions. I think I'll create a 'cvsdevel' group that is the one to join for this stuff.
>Jul 13 11:28:34 <gregdek_home>	Not cvslivecd or somesuch?
>Jul 13 11:29:06 <gregdek_home>	nm.  You make the call.
>Jul 13 11:29:14 <Sopwith>	I want to create a /cvs/devel repo to hold all the SoC projects, and this is a good chance to do it.
>Jul 13 11:29:26 <gregdek_home>	Okey doke.  How long until people can go to the Accounts System?
>Jul 13 11:29:36 <Sopwith>	They can go right now.
>Jul 13 11:29:44 <gregdek_home>	And you'll add group info later when it exists?
>Jul 13 11:30:14 <Sopwith>	I just added the group - feel free to apply for membership.
>Jul 13 11:30:34 <gregdek_home>	Rock!
>Jul 13 11:30:41 <gregdek_home>	Sopwith: EVERYONE GO APPLY NOW.
>Jul 13 11:31:01 <gregdek_home>	(Damned stupid irc client changing So: to Sopwith:...)
>Jul 13 11:31:32 <Sopwith>	I need to change my nickname to Oklahoma...
>Jul 13 11:31:32 <gregdek_home>	This meeting time good for folks?
>Jul 13 11:31:37 <gregdek_home>	LOL!
>Jul 13 11:31:39 <gregdek_home>	Don't you dare.
>Jul 13 11:32:22 <darkoilic>	Fine by me!
>Jul 13 11:32:31 <dwestfal>	fine with me, too 
><gregdek_home>	OK.  Who's updating the wiki?
>Jul 13 11:33:28 <darkoilic>	I said I`ll try :)
><gregdek_home>	"Do, or do not.  There is no try."  :)
>Jul 13 11:33:50 <gregdek_home>	Do you have an account on the wiki yet?
><darkoilic>	No, I`ll do it, that`s for sure, but I don`t know if it is going to be good
>Jul 13 11:34:21 <darkoilic>	Yes, I have
><gregdek_home>	Don't worry.  We'll clean it up if it's horrible.  :)
>Jul 13 11:34:42 <darkoilic>	great
>Jul 13 11:34:46 <gregdek_home>	Anything else that NEEDS to be done by next week?
>Jul 13 11:35:14 <sgrubb>	I think we need to start deciding about the config file format
>Jul 13 11:35:31 <sgrubb>	I want to create the opportunity for work in parallel
>Jul 13 11:35:52 <gregdek_home>	So who's working the config file format issue?
>Jul 13 11:36:39 <mether>	a write up of the tasks to be done
>Jul 13 11:36:39 <darkoilic>	Again, I`ll write something, and I`ll send to the list, and you can tell if it is good or not
>Jul 13 11:36:50 <mether>	would be useful if you are planning to work on things together
>Jul 13 11:38:12 <gregdek_home>	OK, so.  TODOs:
>Jul 13 11:38:22 <gregdek_home>	1. CVS access.  Everyone go fill out your forms.
>Jul 13 11:38:32 <gregdek_home>	2. Update wiki.  Darko.
>Jul 13 11:38:40 <gregdek_home>	3. Config file format proposal.  Darko.
>Jul 13 11:38:47 <gregdek_home>	Any others for next week?
>Jul 13 11:40:02 <darkoilic>	I hope to finish 2&3 sooner then next week...
>Jul 13 11:40:05 <darkoilic>	:)
>Jul 13 11:40:19 <gregdek_home>	:)
><gregdek_home>	Anyone else need anything by next week?  Speak now or forever hold your peace...
>Jul 13 11:40:50 <darkoilic>	So, when I finish 2&3, I`ll do something else, probably the part that comes after conf file creation...
>Jul 13 11:41:10 <darkoilic>	and I`ll probably need some help, but I`ll use mailing list
>Jul 13 11:41:23 <gregdek_home>	Perfect.
>Jul 13 11:41:44 <gregdek_home>	Thanks all.  See you next week.  I'll send the transcipt to the list.
>Fedora-livecd-list mailing list
>Fedora-livecd-list at redhat.com

I have been busy getting ready for semester and I have a major amount of 
work on my plate at present, so I have NOT been involved with any 
discussions you have had.  But I thought I should add my two cents worth 
anyway.  Last week I built a Fedora Core 3 live CD toolkit to 
demonstrate how I would start building live CD images.  I took some code 
from ADIOS project and created a toolkit which allowed me to take the 
standard Fedora Core Personal Workstation installation and convert it 
into a bootable CD.  I have placed the toolkit at


Here you can download the adios-kernel and the yetaa toolkit (both to be 
in RPM format some time soon).  This toolkit will enable users to build 
their own live CDs using the Fedora Core 3 installation CDs.  The 
distribution is truely 0.1 in that I have not removed several errors or 
even tested the live and normal modes in the Makefile.  My co-worker 
Mark Huth will hopefully remove the bugs such as it does not shutdown 
cleanly and then maybe I might start looking at a FC4 version.

Please feel free to use any of my code as it is all GNU General Public 


regards Neville
email: n.richter at qut.edu.au  room: S745 Gardens Point
phone: +61 7 3864 1928   fax: +61 7 3221 2384
web: http://dc.qut.edu.au/sedc/staff/neville_richter.html

Neville Richter, Senior Lecturer
School of Software Engineering & Data Communications
Faculty of Information Technology
Queensland University of Technology
Box 2434 Brisbane 4001 AUSTRALIA

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