From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Mon Aug 1 01:33:56 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:33:56 +0800 (WST) Subject: Fedora Vendor/Distribution Information (Wiki/Project idea) In-Reply-To: <42EC9838.7060001@n-man.com> References: <42EC1FB6.2050707@n-man.com> <7f617d27050731001065884e18@mail.gmail.com> <42EC9838.7060001@n-man.com> Message-ID: <3904.192.168.0.104.1122860036.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> To get further information you possibly could contact the local LUG's for each area and ask them. I know my local LUG has a computer store that caters just for linux users who are new. They also contribute to the LUG at the same time. Most of them use however debian and or gentoo because of their experience however for some reason they recommend mandrake as a starting os. Anyways just a suggestion. -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra > Alex Maier wrote: > >>Doesn't this section already provide the information you are talking >> about? >>http://fedora.redhat.com/download/vendors.html >> >>However, I think it would make sense to duplicate this information in the >> Wiki. >>a >> >>On 7/31/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: >> >> >>>I wanted to throw out the idea of setting up a spot on the wiki to >>>provide information about distribution of Fedora, particularly expanding >>>upon information for distributors. At current, there are no >>>readily-available guidelines for OEM companies who are interested in >>>distributing Fedora Core. There also isn't much information for >>>companies interested in preparing and selling Fedora in packaged forms. >>>Working for an OEM vendor, I know this kind of thing is sought after. I >>>would like to change things. >>> >>>I propose http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution be used to provide >>>information about obtaining and distributing Fedora Core. I would like >>>it to be a resource for both companies and end users. For companies, it >>>can provide guides and guidelines for the legal distribution of Fedora >>>Core in assorted media formats, including pre-installed systems. For >>>the end user, it can provide information on how to properly obtain, >>>install, or upgrade Fedora Core, including how to find vendors locally >>>or online. It would be nice to provide a page to list local vendors. >>>Currently, the vendor list at f.r.c is limited to online vendors. >>> >>>At least for now, this section would largely be linking to the disparate >>>resources on f.r.c and in the wiki. This section could be linked with >>>the Fedora Marketing Project, and with smaller projects like the LiveCD >>>effort. It could provide a central point to tie these various aspects >>>of Fedora distribution together. It might be nice to back this effort >>>up with a mailing list et al. Providing a framework for vendors to >>>introduce themselves and request listings would be a must. >>> >>>I'd love any feedback on this idea. If there are no real objections, >>>I'd love to get this started. >>> >>>I've sent this message to both fedora-devel-list and >>>fedora-marketing-list to field the opinions of all who this most >>>immediately concerns. For those of you who subscribe to both, I >>>apologize for the duplication. Further discussion should probably be >>>directed at fedora-marketing-list. >>> >>>-- >>>Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes >>>nman64 at n-man.com >>> >>>www.n-man.com >>>-- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >>>Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >>>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > The URL you pointed out provides only very limited information, and > lists only online vendors. It is far from the kind of comprehensive > information often sought by OEM distributors and local vendors. My goal > is not to duplicate the information that is already available, my goal > is to add to it and to interconnect the variety of resources related to > the project's distribution. The best example of a similar project that > I am aware of is the OpenOffice.org distribution information. The idea > is to provide more extensive support to vendors, and to bring vendors > and users together. Providing consistency among vendors with regard to > Fedora will help build Fedora's name and reputation, as well as provide > greater ease and less confusion for users. > > My ideas also extend beyond just distributors, as I would like to also > connect users to information regarding the various ways they can get > Fedora. It would be nice to provide one clear source for information on > obtaining Fedora, no matter what media the person is after. A person > might visit the site thinking the only way they can get Fedora is by > downloading ISO images. Upon arriving at the site, they could be > presented with options to purchase CDs online, find a local distributor, > learn about efforts like the LiveCD project, use BitTorrent, or even > conducting Internet or network installations after downloading just a > small ISO image. The idea is about bringing the information together, > and expanding with information that might not yet be written, or which > might only be available to those who can read through mountains of > technical information to get the job done. > > The overall goal is to provide a unified source of information for the > many ways one can procure Fedora, and what options one has when > redistributing Fedora, as well as best practices and common pitfalls in > doing so. > > -- > Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes > nman64 at n-man.com > > www.n-man.com > -- > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Mon Aug 1 03:28:28 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:28:28 +0800 (WST) Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <1122624138.5322.27.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122624138.5322.27.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4131.192.168.0.104.1122866908.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> I suppose we should ask the developers their opinions on this. I'm not sure what response they will give because they are busy. Since I'm not on the devel mailing list could someone ask them since I have nothing to contribute in that way to the devel mailing list. -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra > On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 09:10 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >> Could it be setup in a way where the posts are done to the forums >> however >> the information flow is done through the mailing list. I know its >> sortof >> backwards but a generic bit of info goes to the mailing list. Where as >> a >> specific question can get asked out on the forums. >> >> My only problem that I can see is I'm not sure whether there are >> sufficient developers that visit the fedoraforum.org website. > > This is a good point. > > Users run all over the place for help, and there are more of them, so > they reach a critical mass more easily. > > Developers are creatures of habit. A Web based forum is less likely to > get input than an easy, traditional mailing list. Gated to a news > server, of course. :) > > We can ask for easy behavior modifications ("If it sounds like good > advice, Cc: it to f-mentoring-l"), but we are challenged when we ask for > new workflows ("All developers, start helping and mentoring on > fedoraforum.org"). > > Paul, your idea makes _sense_, but I don't know if we are in an area of > senses. ;-) > > - Karsten > > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 2 15:05:33 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Logo, logo, logo! In-Reply-To: <556f970a05071213585161301@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050712160109.92B7B741B6@hormel.redhat.com> <42D3EE77.8050105@houston.rr.com> <556f970a05071213585161301@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On August 9th, Red Hat folks will meet to discuss the Broad Implications of coming up with a new Fedora logo. Since Red Hat still owns all the marks for Fedora, Red Hat will ultimately be making this call. That said: all the RH marketing folks are keeping a very close eye on the following page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas So. If you have ideas, make sure that they're represented on this page! When the meeting turns to logo ideas, THIS WILL BE THE STARTING POINT. Thanks for everyone's help in this fight. I hope to be able to report some real progress soon. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 3 01:21:21 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:21:21 -0500 Subject: Quick question for wiki section. Message-ID: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> For those who haven't noticed, I've been jumping around on the wiki trying to spruce the place up a bit. I have noticed that the Marketing section is one of few that doesn't have a group (eg. MarketingGroup). I also think a PressContacts page might be appropriate. Also, with meetings starting to take form, a section with meeting information and a spot for meeting notes might also be good. I would like to bring the Marketing section up to spec with some of the other projects. I just wanted to ask before I went about making such an addition as a group page. Any objections/opinions/suggestions? -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Wed Aug 3 01:28:26 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:28:26 +0800 (WST) Subject: Quick question for wiki section. In-Reply-To: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> References: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> Message-ID: <2687.192.168.0.104.1123032506.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Great idea I never thought about it. I think we might be able to consolidate ideas on there maybe? -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra > For those who haven't noticed, I've been jumping around on the wiki > trying to spruce the place up a bit. I have noticed that the Marketing > section is one of few that doesn't have a group (eg. MarketingGroup). I > also think a PressContacts page might be appropriate. Also, with > meetings starting to take form, a section with meeting information and a > spot for meeting notes might also be good. I would like to bring the > Marketing section up to spec with some of the other projects. I just > wanted to ask before I went about making such an addition as a group > page. Any objections/opinions/suggestions? > > -- > Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes > nman64 at n-man.com > > www.n-man.com > -- > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Aug 3 09:46:42 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:46:42 +1000 Subject: Logo, logo, logo! In-Reply-To: References: <20050712160109.92B7B741B6@hormel.redhat.com> <42D3EE77.8050105@houston.rr.com> <556f970a05071213585161301@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1123062402.3377.382.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 11:05 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On August 9th, Red Hat folks will meet to discuss the Broad > Implications > of coming up with a new Fedora logo. Since Red Hat still owns all > the > marks for Fedora, Red Hat will ultimately be making this call. Is there some joyous conference call for this? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 3 13:47:11 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Logo, logo, logo! In-Reply-To: <1123062402.3377.382.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <20050712160109.92B7B741B6@hormel.redhat.com> <42D3EE77.8050105@houston.rr.com> <556f970a05071213585161301@mail.gmail.com> <1123062402.3377.382.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: No conference call, but we'll be sharing the output of the meeting. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Colin Charles wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 11:05 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > On August 9th, Red Hat folks will meet to discuss the Broad > > Implications > > of coming up with a new Fedora logo. Since Red Hat still owns all > > the > > marks for Fedora, Red Hat will ultimately be making this call. > > Is there some joyous conference call for this? > -- > Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Aug 3 13:48:45 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:48:45 +1000 Subject: Quick question for wiki section. In-Reply-To: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> References: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1123076925.3377.419.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 20:21 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > For those who haven't noticed, I've been jumping around on the wiki > trying to spruce the place up a bit. I have noticed that the > Marketing > section is one of few that doesn't have a group (eg. MarketingGroup). Like an EditGroup equivalent? Well, yeah I guess we could create this > I > also think a PressContacts page might be appropriate. Also, with Yes, pointing to press at fedoraproject.org > meetings starting to take form, a section with meeting information and > a > spot for meeting notes might also be good. I would like to bring the Sounds like a good idea, which reminds me we need another meeting > Marketing section up to spec with some of the other projects. I just > wanted to ask before I went about making such an addition as a group > page. Any objections/opinions/suggestions? Go ahead and create what's necessary, then tell us to review it too -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Aug 3 13:53:06 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:53:06 +1000 Subject: REMINDER: Marketing Meeting Message-ID: <1123077186.3377.427.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> We really should have had one last week, but I spent a wonderful time in various airports, and told Greg I won't make the meeting. Apparently, no one else did either ;-) THURSDAY AUGUST 4, 15:00 UTC THURSDAY AUGUST 4, 11:00 Eastern US THURSDAY AUGUST 4, 08:00 Western US FRIDAY AUGUST 5, 01:00 Melbourne (UTC+10) Bi-Weekly catchup, talk about fedora rewards, and more. Agenda items: * Promoting/marketing FUDCon III/London 2005 * Creating local teams (like Ubuntu's LoCo or marketing.openoffice.org) * Further talk on LWE SF booth (?) * Promoting Triage * Logo deferred till after Red Hat decides on Aug 9 * Fedora Mentors -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 3 15:58:42 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:58:42 -0700 Subject: Quick question for wiki section. In-Reply-To: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> References: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1123084722.32127.29.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 20:21 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > For those who haven't noticed, I've been jumping around on the wiki > trying to spruce the place up a bit. I have noticed that the Marketing > section is one of few that doesn't have a group (eg. MarketingGroup). I don't know if the FooGroup is a standard. EditGroup, yes. For FDP, we have wiki/DocsProject/ ... which is a little informal but works. We have wiki/Marketing/ and you could use that, unless you see MarketingGroup as an "about us" kind of page. So that Marketing would be focused on marketing, and MarketingGroup (or MarketingProject) would be focused on who does marketing. BTW, the greater scheme in the Future, I see Marketing as being a stand- alone project under the Fedora umbrella. Doesn't mean we have to call it the Marketing Project. > I > also think a PressContacts page might be appropriate. Also, with > meetings starting to take form, a section with meeting information and a > spot for meeting notes might also be good. I would like to bring the > Marketing section up to spec with some of the other projects. I just > wanted to ask before I went about making such an addition as a group > page. Any objections/opinions/suggestions? Yeah, I noticed you making changes, good for you. Another advantage of having everything under one WikiName/ is that you can watch for changes as a wildcard group. I don't know if this works if we have Marketing/ and MarketingGroup/ and so forth. Might make sense to pick one (whatever we have) and run with that. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 3 17:16:11 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:16:11 -0700 Subject: Quick question for wiki section. In-Reply-To: <1123084722.32127.29.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> <1123084722.32127.29.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1123089371.32127.37.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-03 at 08:58 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 20:21 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > For those who haven't noticed, I've been jumping around on the wiki > > trying to spruce the place up a bit. I have noticed that the Marketing > > section is one of few that doesn't have a group (eg. MarketingGroup). > > I don't know if the FooGroup is a standard. EditGroup, yes. For FDP, > we have wiki/DocsProject/ ... which is a little informal but works. > > We have wiki/Marketing/ and you could use that, unless you see > MarketingGroup as an "about us" kind of page. So that Marketing would > be focused on marketing, and MarketingGroup (or MarketingProject) would > be focused on who does marketing. N-Man explained to me (on IRC) that FooGroup has special meaning in MoinMoin, so I withdraw my concerns. Otherwise, everything I wrote is what he has in mind, so we are all good. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 3 17:54:38 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:54:38 -0500 Subject: Wiki Update (ATTN: All contributors) Message-ID: <42F104DE.20907@n-man.com> I have largely redone the Marketing section of the wiki. We have several new pages, a different layout on some existing content, and a bunch of cleaning up. I encourage everyone to take a look, try things out, and make any changes they feel are necessary. Please take the time to at least visit http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/MarketingGroup and make sure that your name is present. If not, please add it. If you do not yet have write access to the wiki, let us know and we'll get you added to the EditGroup. I look forward to seeing everyone in the meeting. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Meetings Thank you. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Aug 3 17:55:45 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:55:45 -0700 Subject: Quick question for wiki section. In-Reply-To: <1123089371.32127.37.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> <1123084722.32127.29.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123089371.32127.37.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1123091745.5889.18.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Wed, 2005-08-03 at 10:16 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > N-Man explained to me (on IRC) that FooGroup has special meaning in > MoinMoin, so I withdraw my concerns. Otherwise, everything I wrote is > what he has in mind, so we are all good. The Group page basically is for ACL assignment. It doesn't really serve any other purpose. So unless you want to restrict your marketing pages to be edited by an even smaller group of people (those that are in EditGroup _and_ MarketingGroup) and you want to have an admin level person maintain ACLs on all your page, I would recommend against creating this page. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Aug 3 17:58:08 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:58:08 -0700 Subject: Wiki Update (ATTN: All contributors) In-Reply-To: <42F104DE.20907@n-man.com> References: <42F104DE.20907@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1123091888.5889.21.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Wed, 2005-08-03 at 12:54 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Please take the time to at least visit > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/MarketingGroup and make sure > that your name is present. If not, please add it. If you do not yet > have write access to the wiki, let us know and we'll get you added to > the EditGroup. What purpose is this page servicing? As was stated in previous mails, FooGroup pages are special pages that Moin uses for ACL management. If we just want a page to list everybody that is considered to be in Fedora Marketing, we should use a differently named page. If you want to do some ACL management with these people then you'll need to be an Admin level person within the wiki (EditGroup people are not admins). -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 3 18:01:47 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:01:47 -0500 Subject: Quick question for wiki section. In-Reply-To: <1123091745.5889.18.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> <1123084722.32127.29.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123089371.32127.37.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123091745.5889.18.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <42F1068B.4010905@n-man.com> Jesse Keating wrote: >On Wed, 2005-08-03 at 10:16 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > >>N-Man explained to me (on IRC) that FooGroup has special meaning in >>MoinMoin, so I withdraw my concerns. Otherwise, everything I wrote is >>what he has in mind, so we are all good. >> >> > >The Group page basically is for ACL assignment. It doesn't really serve >any other purpose. So unless you want to restrict your marketing pages >to be edited by an even smaller group of people (those that are in >EditGroup _and_ MarketingGroup) and you want to have an admin level >person maintain ACLs on all your page, I would recommend against >creating this page. > > > Although there are no plans to start using ACLs for Marketing at this time, the page can serve other purposes, including just tracking who is contributing. There may come a time when having ACLs is needed, and it would be easier to already have a list ready if that day comes. MoinMoin might eventually also have other features built around its group tracking, and such a page could also help in that case. The real purpose in having the page now is simply for tracking contributors. The use of the *Group name simply allows for future implementation of group features. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Aug 3 18:24:23 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:24:23 -0700 Subject: Quick question for wiki section. In-Reply-To: <42F1068B.4010905@n-man.com> References: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> <1123084722.32127.29.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123089371.32127.37.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123091745.5889.18.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <42F1068B.4010905@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1123093463.5889.31.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Wed, 2005-08-03 at 13:01 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Although there are no plans to start using ACLs for Marketing at this > time, the page can serve other purposes, including just tracking who is > contributing. There may come a time when having ACLs is needed, and it > would be easier to already have a list ready if that day comes. > MoinMoin might eventually also have other features built around its > group tracking, and such a page could also help in that case. The real > purpose in having the page now is simply for tracking contributors. The > use of the *Group name simply allows for future implementation of group > features. Well the list of names can easily be cut/copied to the Group age when needed, and every page would have to be touched anyway to add the ACL. It wouldn't be an easy transition no matter how you look at it. I'm more worried about using a reserved page structure for a non-accounted for usage. Lets say that MoinMoin does do some added functionality to the Group pages that we're not expecting and messes w/ what we have there. Honestly I think it would be best to avoid using it for now. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 3 18:49:34 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:49:34 -0500 Subject: Quick question for wiki section. In-Reply-To: <1123093463.5889.31.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> <1123084722.32127.29.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123089371.32127.37.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123091745.5889.18.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <42F1068B.4010905@n-man.com> <1123093463.5889.31.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <42F111BE.8070505@n-man.com> Jesse Keating wrote: >On Wed, 2005-08-03 at 13:01 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > >>Although there are no plans to start using ACLs for Marketing at this >>time, the page can serve other purposes, including just tracking who is >>contributing. There may come a time when having ACLs is needed, and it >>would be easier to already have a list ready if that day comes. >>MoinMoin might eventually also have other features built around its >>group tracking, and such a page could also help in that case. The real >>purpose in having the page now is simply for tracking contributors. The >>use of the *Group name simply allows for future implementation of group >>features. >> >> > >Well the list of names can easily be cut/copied to the Group age when >needed, and every page would have to be touched anyway to add the ACL. >It wouldn't be an easy transition no matter how you look at it. > >I'm more worried about using a reserved page structure for a >non-accounted for usage. Lets say that MoinMoin does do some added >functionality to the Group pages that we're not expecting and messes w/ >what we have there. Honestly I think it would be best to avoid using it >for now. > > > I understand your concerns, but I do not share them. The *Group page structure is defined, but not reserved. MoinMoin will not change existing behavior of the *Group pages. Having the page existing as a measure for future ease does not risk brokenness. As for ACL usage, the only changes that would be necessary would be the addition of ACLs to the *Group page to prevent tampering, and then the addition of ACLs to pages that are to be restricted. It would not be necessary to touch every page. If ever ACLs are used, it will likely only be applied to a small subset of pages. By having this page now, we allow the creation of controlled pages within minutes, and without risk. Your concerns are certainly warranted, and the thought you have given to it is certainly appreciated, but I have reviewed the issues and feel that this is the best way to go. If someone wants to overrule me on this, I welcome their comments, but I really don't see this as a problem. I just have a habit of preparing for the future, and think this is how to do it. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Aug 3 19:51:39 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:51:39 -0700 Subject: Quick question for wiki section. In-Reply-To: <42F111BE.8070505@n-man.com> References: <42F01C11.60406@n-man.com> <1123084722.32127.29.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123089371.32127.37.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123091745.5889.18.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <42F1068B.4010905@n-man.com> <1123093463.5889.31.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <42F111BE.8070505@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1123098699.5889.38.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Wed, 2005-08-03 at 13:49 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > I understand your concerns, but I do not share them. The *Group page > structure is defined, but not reserved. MoinMoin will not change > existing behavior of the *Group pages. Ah but you had mentioned that future may bring more functionality to the Group pages... > Having the page existing as a > measure for future ease does not risk brokenness. Yes and no... I'm just of the mind set that using things out of scope tends to get you burned. *shrug* > As for ACL usage, the > only changes that would be necessary would be the addition of ACLs to > the *Group page to prevent tampering, and then the addition of ACLs to > pages that are to be restricted. It would not be necessary to touch > every page. Right, I meant every page to be limited must be touched, and touched by an admin. > If ever ACLs are used, it will likely only be applied to a > small subset of pages. By having this page now, we allow the creation > of controlled pages within minutes, and without risk. Your concerns are > certainly warranted, and the thought you have given to it is certainly > appreciated, but I have reviewed the issues and feel that this is the > best way to go. If someone wants to overrule me on this, I welcome > their comments, but I really don't see this as a problem. I just have a > habit of preparing for the future, and think this is how to do it. I will leave it up to others to decide as well. Your views and mine are now of public matter (: Neither are incorrect in their own rights, it's just a matter of opinion. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Aug 4 03:24:57 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:24:57 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Fedora looses position in Germany] Message-ID: <1123125897.3377.500.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> This is somewhat interesting - anyone care to post an analysis? Seems we're unpopular in Germany, in-spite of FUDCon II being there?!? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Claus Schwarm Subject: Fedora looses position in Germany Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:08:40 +0200 Size: 4629 URL: From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 14:22:36 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:22:36 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Fedora looses position in Germany] In-Reply-To: <1123125897.3377.500.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1123125897.3377.500.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <556f970a050804072269ab6671@mail.gmail.com> SUSE has always been strong in Germany, and Mandrake has always been strong in Europe in general (and has a reputation for being an Easy Linux.) I think that would explain the numbers, and if they only have room for two distros, there's no room for a third player (which would likely be Knoppix in Germany anyway). --jeremy On 8/3/05, Colin Charles wrote: > This is somewhat interesting - anyone care to post an analysis? > > Seems we're unpopular in Germany, in-spite of FUDCon II being there?!? > -- > Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Claus Schwarm > To: marketing-list at gnome.org > Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:08:40 +0200 > Subject: Fedora looses position in Germany > > Hi! > > I thought, some of you may find it interesting: Starting with > the new edition 08/2005, Germany's magazine for Linux beginners called > "EasyLinux" drops Fedora as a supported distribution. [1] (in german) > > Rationale is an online poll about used distributions answered by 700 > participants: The results are as follows > > Suse Linux 94,4 % > Mandrake Linux 11,5 % > Fedora Core 7,3 % > Knoppix + Kanotix 27,3 % > Ubuntu Linux 13,9 % > Debian GNU/Linux 3,5 % > Misc. 2,3 % > > Numbers don't add up to 100% due to multiple choices. > > 'Supported distribution' means that an article discussing software in > the magazine needs tested packages for all supported distribution. > > >From now on, this will be just SUSE and Mandriva. The addition of DEB > packages is currently discussed. > > To remove installation instructions from articles completely, EasyLinux > started in 06/2005 to ship an additional DVD (sic!) to update the > supported distributions. The usual CD for discussed software remains. > The price for the magazine raised from 3,90 Euro to 5,50 Euro. > > > My 2cts: > > 1.) Linux beginners do know Knoppix, obviously. ;-) > > 2.) Linux beginners still have problems installing third-party software, > and they need a journal to get started -- mailing lists discussions, > outdated informations on web sites, etc. makes google almost useless > for a beginner. > > 2.) Maintainers of end user relevant applications such as Evolution, > Totem, Sound-Juicer, etc. may think about using and thus promoting > autopackage if that hasn't happend yet -- not for themselves but to > help GNOME's smaller FOSS ISV's. > > Cheers, > Claus > > [1] http://www.easylinux.de/Artikel/ausgabe/2005/08/003-edi/ > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list at gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > From mschwendt at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 15:06:44 2005 From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:06:44 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Fedora looses position in Germany] In-Reply-To: <556f970a050804072269ab6671@mail.gmail.com> References: <1123125897.3377.500.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <556f970a050804072269ab6671@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <440f31f60508040806d561e@mail.gmail.com> On 04/08/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > SUSE has always been strong in Germany, And still sells boxes, even in small shops in small cities. > and Mandrake has always been > strong in Europe in general (and has a reputation for being an Easy > Linux.) I think that would explain the numbers, and if they only have > room for two distros, there's no room for a third player (which would > likely be Knoppix in Germany anyway). It's more than that. EasyLinux (it's not a popular print magazine, is it?) has been pretty focused on SuSE Linux and Mandrake Linux in the past. The content of their magazine (also the content of their CD/DVD compilations) defines their target group. You [EasyLinux] don't get any interest from Red Hat Linux or Fedora Core users if you neglect those distributions. You [EasyLinux] cannot raise interest in your download section if you only offer a very limited selection of rpms for FC2, taken from various repositories (like DAG or Freshrpms.net), when FC3 is current and FC4 is newest. Where did they announce that online poll? Did they also ask the subscribers/readers of their more popular "Linux Magazin"? From ad+lists at uni-x.org Thu Aug 4 16:50:05 2005 From: ad+lists at uni-x.org (Alexander Dalloz) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:50:05 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Fedora looses position in Germany] In-Reply-To: <1123125897.3377.500.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1123125897.3377.500.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1123174205.21238.792.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Am Do, den 04.08.2005 schrieb Colin Charles um 5:24: > This is somewhat interesting - anyone care to post an analysis? > > Seems we're unpopular in Germany, in-spite of FUDCon II being there?!? > Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ SuSE has been strong in Germany because it was a German company, with a focus on good German localisation and with really good ISDN support (ISDN is / was up to DSL times, as far as I know, most popular in Europe/Germany). Certainly some other features like Yast(2) made it popular, not only for private users but too in companies. The support the SuSE GmbH offered gave it some leadership for the local market here. The presence in computer magazines is strong up till now. We'll see what now happens under Novell's leadership and from the just these days announced strategy to make SuSE too a community based project[1]. Mandrake became in some way popular in time when it was an enhanced Red Hat Linux, more focused on desktop user requirements. It early targeted toward ease of use. I don't think Mandrake (now Mandriva) is strong in the enterprise market. Debian is / was popular among the more ambitious Linux users, which in first line are able and like to configure things through command line and editing text files rather than using GUI tools. Often Debian users appear as the "real Linux" users and they strongly claim the FOSS flag. For private users Debian is attractive as it has the huge package base and apt to handle packages and dependencies quite easy. In enterprise area Debian isn't that well spreaded here, because there is no company behind it and managements often don't like that idea. It is amazing how fast Ubuntu became popular. This certainly has 2 major reasons: as a Debian based distribution it is easy for Debian users to move over and feel at home and the users get a stable release with relative up to date software versions whereas Debian was either pretty old (stable Woody) or testing / unstable (Sarge / Sid) with the problems such a development orientated release gets you. I don't know how well Knoppix matches into this comparison. Knoppix got it's user base as being the swiss knife Linux live-CD usage. More and more magazines reported about that Linux distribution as it is easy to get an impression about Linux nowadays without need to place it on the computer - well, that is what a live -CD is :). Until Ubuntu went to become widely used Knoppix filled the gap for Debian users being displeased with the situation about the age of stable Debian, running non-stable otherwise or massively using backports. Last but not least, Red Hat Linux has never been on so much home user PCs, but had a better standing in enterprise area. Too with the argument - like the one with SuSE - that there is a company with support. From my own experience I can judge how relative difficult it was to get a good and proper ISDN setup for dial-in with RHL, when SuSE users just made some choices in ncurses based Yast. Though too Red Hat Linux and SuSE were / are both RPM based distributions, package management was easier on SuSE for the normal Linux user. Many Linux users I know still identify Red Hat with "rpm dependency hell" experiences. Fedora as the successor of Red Hat Linux is of course done very much to be more user friendly and desktop user orientated. I see a good chance to get a much better use base here in Germany. Unfortunately the German edition of the Red Hat Magazine has been canceled some time ago. It brought Fedora to some attention, as sold in book shops, kiosks and gas stations. Compared to the Debian -> Ubuntu situation described above, Fedora does not have the fundament of users switching from old RHL to current Fedora. Fedora has to be promoted actively. Sure, it appears in computer magazine articles, like the well known c't magazine (not only famous in Germany I think, but beyond borders, read by ambitious computer users). In the growing notebook user market Fedora though has a difficult standing against SuSE for instance, which seems to be supporting notebook specific hardware like WLAN or power-management somewhat overall better than Fedora. This is said from my small hill. Not really an analysis but a long time perspective from mid 90s on. I do not claim this to be the wisdom about Linux distributions in Germany up to this moment and for future perspective. Alexander [1] http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/62400 -- Alexander Dalloz | Enger, Germany | GPG http://pgp.mit.edu 0xB366A773 legal statement: http://www.uni-x.org/legal.html Fedora Core 2 GNU/Linux on Athlon with kernel 2.6.11-1.35_FC2smp Serendipity 18:47:12 up 19 days, 23:19, load average: 0.09, 0.38, 0.47 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From sopwith at redhat.com Thu Aug 4 18:46:33 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fwd: Fedora looses position in Germany] In-Reply-To: <1123125897.3377.500.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1123125897.3377.500.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Colin Charles wrote: > This is somewhat interesting - anyone care to post an analysis? Someone stuffed the online poll? A self-selecting sample is not representative of the entire population. The key question is whether the magazine can be convinced of their error. The Gnome marketing team has done some good thinking on the problem of market research - it might be useful to talk to them so we can do market research to show the magazine its error. Best, -- Elliot From lxmaier at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 08:17:08 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:17:08 +0200 Subject: FUDCon London 2005 Message-ID: <7f617d2705080501177ebc482d@mail.gmail.com> Hello guys, I wanted to ask you for support in publicizing the upcoming FUDcon London 2005, and in possibly volunteering to speak there too :) If you are on any relevant lists or have a blog, consider mentioning FUDCon London 2005 there, or adding a link to the FUDCon page to your signature, like I did: http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/ You can use this text in your messages to lists: FUDCon Invitation FUDCon London 2005, the third gathering of Fedora Users and Developers, will be held at LinuxWorld Conference and Expo UK, on the 6th of October in London, UK. FUDCon will feature presentations from prominent members of the Fedora Project, both from Red Hat and from the Fedora community. Attendance is free to anyone attending LinuxWorld UK. The FUDCon staff requests that those who plan to attend FUDCon London 2005 register by sending a short email with your name to fudcon-register at fedoraproject.org Call for Presentations Working on an interesting project that uses Fedora? Looking to find contributors to help with your work, or just looking to share your project with the world? The Fedora Project is looking for presenters at FUDCon London 2005. Any topic that relates significantly to the Fedora Project will be considered. Please submit an abstract of no more than 250 words to [MAILTO] fudcon-cfp at fedoraporject.org. Submission deadline: Friday, August 26th, 2005 Notification of decision: Friday, September 2nd, 2005 Final version deadline: Friday, September 16, 2005 Call for Volunteers If you want to help out organizing a FUDCon, visit this page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon/Organization -- FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon From byte at aeon.com.my Tue Aug 9 07:05:54 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:05:54 +1000 Subject: Worth noting the words we use... In-Reply-To: <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1123571154.24930.81.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 01:43 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > We casually use terms like schwag[1]. Maybe we need to stop. We need to > > make sure our marketing materials and people doing the marketing, use > > words, oh so properly. Can't expect the rest of the world to think we're > > pot heads now, can we? > > > > [1] - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=schwag&r=d > > The actual term is 'swag', as in what pirates receive when practicing > their trade. The usage of schwag is a verbal transmutation. Yes, I was referring to a fedora-announce-list post saying schwag > Regardless, both are slang with some potentially vulgar definitions. > The downside is that swag has a connotative meaning that is hard to > replace with another word. Have to do some thinking ... I think we'll continue to use swag, freebie, etc.. Any wordsmiths among us? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Aug 8 23:49:31 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:49:31 +1000 Subject: No meeting this week Message-ID: <1123544971.24930.2.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Its worthy to say some of our team members are at LWCE LinuxWorld in San Francisco, doing magical things for Fedora at the booth and evangelising. We therefore should postpone our bi-weekly meeting till next week Regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 14:24:06 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 10:24:06 -0400 Subject: Worth noting the words we use... In-Reply-To: <1123571154.24930.81.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123571154.24930.81.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05080907246d792efd@mail.gmail.com> > I think we'll continue to use swag, freebie, etc.. Any wordsmiths among > us? For the record, I avoided the word s*wag on the Fedora Rewards wiki page and correspondences. I opted for "Fedora Gear" since it makes sense and has the same Fedora flow as Core, Extras, Rewards, etc. I'll continue to avoid the word s*wag because I feel it connotes stolen goods or thief's plunder, which Fedora Gear is not. Matt Frye From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 9 14:52:33 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 10:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Worth noting the words we use... In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05080907246d792efd@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123571154.24930.81.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <7f1eacdd05080907246d792efd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I find myself gravitating towards "goodies," fwiw. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, Matt Frye wrote: > > I think we'll continue to use swag, freebie, etc.. Any wordsmiths among > > us? > > For the record, I avoided the word s*wag on the Fedora Rewards wiki > page and correspondences. I opted for "Fedora Gear" since it makes > sense and has the same Fedora flow as Core, Extras, > Rewards, etc. > > I'll continue to avoid the word s*wag because I feel it connotes > stolen goods or thief's plunder, which Fedora Gear is not. > > Matt Frye > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 16:55:43 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:55:43 -0400 Subject: Worth noting the words we use... In-Reply-To: References: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123571154.24930.81.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <7f1eacdd05080907246d792efd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05080909554c6a2097@mail.gmail.com> On 8/9/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > I find myself gravitating towards "goodies," fwiw. "Goodies" has the same feel to me as a puppy logo. From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Aug 9 17:41:41 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:41:41 -0700 Subject: Worth noting the words we use... In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05080909554c6a2097@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> <1123571154.24930.81.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <7f1eacdd05080907246d792efd@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05080909554c6a2097@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1123609301.18523.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-08-09 at 12:55 -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > "Goodies" has the same feel to me as a puppy logo. Fedora Treats? -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Aug 9 17:44:29 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:44:29 -0700 Subject: Logo lookalike Message-ID: <1123609469.18523.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> I saw this banner while walking through LWCE:SF today. Looks very close to some of the things we were looking at... ): http://www.4js.com/fourjs/site/site.shtml -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 9 18:32:15 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:32:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Update: Fedora logos Message-ID: Minutes from today's RH logo meeting: --- In today's meeting Greg gave us the lowdown on why a Fedora logo is needed. We discussed the logo suggestions made by the community. The Fedora as an element idea is by far the most interesting one suggested so far. Also the lowercase F seems like a good idea as it suggests an informal, less enterprise and business like brand. Everyone agreed that we should keep the dark blue color scheme but possibly add a secondary color. And finally we agreed that creating a new mascot (like a puppy) probably isn't a great idea. Matt and Caroline are going to attempt a few logos over the next two weeks and present drafts at our next meeting. In addition, they will give examples of what some of the sub-brands would look like, such as Fedora Extras, Fedora Foundation, and Fedora Users & Developers Conference. --- So when we've got the drafts, we'll present for further review and discussion. Thanks for everyone's help and input so far. --g From mattfrye at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 16:38:59 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:38:59 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point... Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> Steve Mallett illustrates his fundamental misunderstanding of Fedora here: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/7576 . However, this does point to a marketing problem. Are we clearly defining Fedora to the technical community? From thulshof at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 17:50:07 2005 From: thulshof at gmail.com (Thijs Hulshof) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:50:07 +0200 Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9590b2a805081010507be17524@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I think Fedora has an image problem, especially with starting users. On my Linux-forum, Fedora is often called a distribution for testing things, not for serious desktop-use. As a Fedora-supporter, I'm always trying to contradict... but there should be nothing to contradict. As a solution, I think we should focus more on new Linux-users. Currently, there are not really things that attract new users. Fedora is easy to use, imho it is easier then Ubuntu. I think all popular distributions (Fedora, SuSE, Ubuntu, Mandriva, etc.) are ready for the desktop, but the usage statistics heavily depend on the community. Almost every reviewer is excited about Ubuntu. If that reviewer started with Fedora, maybe (s)he should be even more excited about Fedora. - Thijs On 8/10/05, Matt Frye wrote: > > Steve Mallett illustrates his fundamental misunderstanding of Fedora > here: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/7576 . However, this does > point to a marketing problem. > > Are we clearly defining Fedora to the technical community? > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 10 18:00:00 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This is not a matter of our failure to define Fedora properly to the community. This is a case of someone seeing what they want to see: #1. Red Hat should never have gone to the RHEL/Fedora model. We don't care what the financials look like. #2. Red Hat is using the community as guinea pigs. #3. Fedora sucks and is completely unstable. #1 is simply wrong; we couldn't have survived with our old model. #2 is a matter of perspective, and is thus not arguable. The only one of these opinions with any value at all is #3, and we need to strive to improve the Fedora Core release process. And we will. Beyond that, I don't know that there's much to say. The only way forward with Fedora is to build the community of developers, and increase the quality of the offering over time. That's all. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Matt Frye wrote: > Steve Mallett illustrates his fundamental misunderstanding of Fedora > here: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/7576 . However, this does > point to a marketing problem. > > Are we clearly defining Fedora to the technical community? > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Wed Aug 10 18:15:26 2005 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Beyond that, I don't know that there's much to say. The only way forward > with Fedora is to build the community of developers, and increase the > quality of the offering over time. That's all. The only way to change that IMHO is to distribute a million of FC5 on media for free, that's basically all that's about Ubuntu. Other than that I don't see any strong reason for Ubuntu's sudden acceptance. Yes, the debian base is a +, but it's not the first debian derivative either. What we need is Fedora DVDs with Core and some Extra packages, in a shiny package. The important question is who will pay for the costs. We need Red Hat or somewhere else (GNOME Foundation?) support the production. The distribution can be distributed on the developers and evangelists for free I guess. > --g --behdad http://behdad.org/ From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 10 18:34:47 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > The only way to change that IMHO is to distribute a million of > FC5 on media for free, that's basically all that's about Ubuntu. > Other than that I don't see any strong reason for Ubuntu's sudden > acceptance. Yes, the debian base is a +, but it's not the first > debian derivative either. I completely agree. > What we need is Fedora DVDs with Core and some Extra packages, > in a shiny package. The important question is who will pay for > the costs. We need Red Hat or somewhere else (GNOME Foundation?) > support the production. The distribution can be distributed on > the developers and evangelists for free I guess. I agree with this too -- except that a DVD covers only half of our target. What we really need: 1. A Live CD; 2. A one-CD install; 3. A DVD. We can spew out all the DVDs we want, but we're getting killed on the one-CD install in most of the world. My hope is that we make some headway in the Live CD project. It will do two things: a. Give us a Live CD (obviously); b. Give us great tools for selecting the right packages for the one-CD install. Darko Ilic of the Live CD project should be putting code up soon. I'm hoping to pull a project together, soon, that focuses on this problem. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Thu Aug 11 01:42:57 2005 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:42:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > I agree with this too -- except that a DVD covers only half of our target. > What we really need: > > 1. A Live CD; > 2. A one-CD install; > 3. A DVD. Just a reminder that the main problem with DVDs is burning them. The population that can burn a DVD is far far smaller than those who can read a DVD which is not IMHO _that_ much smaller than those who can read a CD. So distributing only DVDs is not quite as bad as having only DVDs for download. > We can spew out all the DVDs we want, but we're getting killed on the > one-CD install in most of the world. > > My hope is that we make some headway in the Live CD project. It will do > two things: > > a. Give us a Live CD (obviously); > b. Give us great tools for selecting the right packages for the one-CD > install. > > Darko Ilic of the Live CD project should be putting code up soon. I'm > hoping to pull a project together, soon, that focuses on this problem. Make sure we have a DVD that contains both live and installable stuff. Better yet is to be able to install right from inside the live session. That's Wooo! You like it? Do you want to install? You can browse in the browser for problems you may face at install time, get on the IRC for some live suppor! AFAIK no other distro has done that before. That can be a killer feature, but a bit harder to get, but not thta much ;). So, yes, lets go for world domination with FC5. :) > --g --behdad http://behdad.org/ From sankar at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 04:14:23 2005 From: sankar at redhat.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhay) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:44:23 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42FAD09F.5020803@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > My hope is that we make some headway in the Live CD project. It will do > two things: > > a. Give us a Live CD (obviously); > b. Give us great tools for selecting the right packages for the one-CD > install. [b] is an idea that will be greatly welcomed. Having a *Toast Your Own Fedora* is probably a right approach to the dilemma of having a Live CD *and* an Install CD. An installable LiveCD is generally neither here nor there. Regards Sankarshan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFC+tCe+g4kmZ76nyERAk5dAKCKHy1F/NH2a5yxCcE8r+vyIfkwFgCfRbOw Vt4r92Xnd9rhDfeFOy+FwBc= =csmD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 05:25:19 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:55:19 +0530 Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <42FAE13F.2080604@redhat.com> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >Could it be setup in a way where the posts are done to the forums however >the information flow is done through the mailing list. I know its sortof >backwards but a generic bit of info goes to the mailing list. Where as a >specific question can get asked out on the forums. > >My only problem that I can see is I'm not sure whether there are >sufficient developers that visit the fedoraforum.org website. That being >said I think the devel side. I know Rahul is on there a heap which I >think its great. > It takes a lot more time than answering questions in the mailing lists. I would prefer a mentors list instead if others are willing to work with new volunteers in such a project regards Rahul From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Aug 11 07:25:11 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:25:11 +0800 Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <42FAE13F.2080604@redhat.com> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42FAE13F.2080604@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1123745111.17624.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Does that mean we are going to be proceeding with this? My only concern is that I would love to be a part of it however I have very little to offer. > It takes a lot more time than answering questions in the mailing lists. > I would prefer a mentors list instead if others are willing to work with > new volunteers in such a project > > regards > Rahul I think possibly maybe we should ask the developers whether they are interested in contributing to it. I don't feel that we should proceed if the most important part of it isn't interested. Regards Marc From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Aug 11 07:29:21 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:29:21 +0800 Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1123745361.17624.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 14:34 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > > The only way to change that IMHO is to distribute a million of > > FC5 on media for free, that's basically all that's about Ubuntu. > > Other than that I don't see any strong reason for Ubuntu's sudden > > acceptance. Yes, the debian base is a +, but it's not the first > > debian derivative either. > > I completely agree. > > > What we need is Fedora DVDs with Core and some Extra packages, > > in a shiny package. The important question is who will pay for > > the costs. We need Red Hat or somewhere else (GNOME Foundation?) > > support the production. The distribution can be distributed on > > the developers and evangelists for free I guess. > > I agree with this too -- except that a DVD covers only half of our target. > What we really need: > > 1. A Live CD; > 2. A one-CD install; > 3. A DVD. > > We can spew out all the DVDs we want, but we're getting killed on the > one-CD install in most of the world. > > My hope is that we make some headway in the Live CD project. It will do > two things: > > a. Give us a Live CD (obviously); > b. Give us great tools for selecting the right packages for the one-CD > install. Do you feel that yum is ready to work as fast or regarding dependancies ready to handle a one-cd situation? I've used both yum and apt and it seems that apt with rpms is still more efficient in processing the data required. Maybe thats just me I'm not sure. I personally believe a 1 cd install is a must since most people always complain of the 'bloatedness' of Fedora. They always point to ubuntu as say thats what it needs to be like fast and efficient. I can see their point if they are a desktop user however I don't see their point if they want to setup a server. I personally always download the dvd's for the pure sake that its one cd and its got everything I personally need on it. Regards, Marc From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 07:36:16 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:06:16 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: <1123745361.17624.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123745361.17624.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42FAFFF0.3090605@redhat.com> Hi >Do you feel that yum is ready to work as fast or regarding dependancies >ready to handle a one-cd situation? I've used both yum and apt and it >seems that apt with rpms is still more efficient in processing the data >required. Maybe thats just me I'm not sure. > Yum is FC4 is pretty fast. I havent tested the raw numbers but thats besides the point since APT4RPM is a dead end http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Apt regards Rahul From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Thu Aug 11 07:36:37 2005 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: <1123745361.17624.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123745361.17624.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Do you feel that yum is ready to work as fast or regarding dependancies > ready to handle a one-cd situation? I've used both yum and apt and it > seems that apt with rpms is still more efficient in processing the data > required. Maybe thats just me I'm not sure. > > I personally believe a 1 cd install is a must since most people always > complain of the 'bloatedness' of Fedora. They always point to ubuntu as > say thats what it needs to be like fast and efficient. > > I can see their point if they are a desktop user however I don't see > their point if they want to setup a server. I personally always > download the dvd's for the pure sake that its one cd and its got > everything I personally need on it. Well, a "desktop" should easily fit on a single CD, and yes, that's really what we want. BTW, I've been always wondering: do all these people that like single CDs have broadband to download hundreds of megs of extra stuff? Or they do not anything that is not on the CD? > Regards, > > > Marc --behdad http://behdad.org/ From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 07:39:07 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:09:07 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123745361.17624.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42FB009B.5030503@redhat.com> Behdad Esfahbod wrote: >On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > > >>Do you feel that yum is ready to work as fast or regarding dependancies >>ready to handle a one-cd situation? I've used both yum and apt and it >>seems that apt with rpms is still more efficient in processing the data >>required. Maybe thats just me I'm not sure. >> >>I personally believe a 1 cd install is a must since most people always >>complain of the 'bloatedness' of Fedora. They always point to ubuntu as >>say thats what it needs to be like fast and efficient. >> >>I can see their point if they are a desktop user however I don't see >>their point if they want to setup a server. I personally always >>download the dvd's for the pure sake that its one cd and its got >>everything I personally need on it. >> >> > >Well, a "desktop" should easily fit on a single CD, and yes, >that's really what we want. BTW, I've been always wondering: do >all these people that like single CDs have broadband to download >hundreds of megs of extra stuff? Or they do not anything that is >not on the CD? > Nothing preventing people to setup up Fedora Extras ISO's. regards Rahul From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Thu Aug 11 07:42:19 2005 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: <42FB009B.5030503@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123745361.17624.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42FB009B.5030503@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >Well, a "desktop" should easily fit on a single CD, and yes, > >that's really what we want. BTW, I've been always wondering: do > >all these people that like single CDs have broadband to download > >hundreds of megs of extra stuff? Or they do not anything that is > >not on the CD? > > > Nothing preventing people to setup up Fedora Extras ISO's. No no. We are talking about "single CD" installers. People believe three or four CDs is a lot... > regards > Rahul --behdad http://behdad.org/ From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Aug 11 07:45:27 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:45:27 +0800 Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123745361.17624.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1123746327.17624.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 03:36 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > > Do you feel that yum is ready to work as fast or regarding dependancies > > ready to handle a one-cd situation? I've used both yum and apt and it > > seems that apt with rpms is still more efficient in processing the data > > required. Maybe thats just me I'm not sure. > > > > I personally believe a 1 cd install is a must since most people always > > complain of the 'bloatedness' of Fedora. They always point to ubuntu as > > say thats what it needs to be like fast and efficient. > > > > I can see their point if they are a desktop user however I don't see > > their point if they want to setup a server. I personally always > > download the dvd's for the pure sake that its one cd and its got > > everything I personally need on it. > > Well, a "desktop" should easily fit on a single CD, and yes, > that's really what we want. BTW, I've been always wondering: do > all these people that like single CDs have broadband to download > hundreds of megs of extra stuff? Or they do not anything that is > not on the CD? I know for me and most of the linux users in Australia we all have broadband so the majority of install on debian for instance are done through our local mirrors since there is a peering arrangement and we get faster speeds. At the moment for instance we have ADSL 2 specs over here so for me someone 3.5 km from the exchange I can download at 3500kb which means a net install cd for me would be great. On top of that imo you would automatically get the latest programs and you wouldn't have to re-download all the updates after its installed. Regards Marc From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 07:47:13 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:17:13 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123745361.17624.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42FB009B.5030503@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42FB0281.9010003@redhat.com> Behdad Esfahbod wrote: >On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > >>>Well, a "desktop" should easily fit on a single CD, and yes, >>>that's really what we want. BTW, I've been always wondering: do >>>all these people that like single CDs have broadband to download >>>hundreds of megs of extra stuff? Or they do not anything that is >>>not on the CD? >>> >>> >>> >>Nothing preventing people to setup up Fedora Extras ISO's. >> >> > >No no. We are talking about "single CD" installers. People >believe three or four CDs is a lot... > The installer itself is getting the capability to read repository meta data. So inspite of a potential single CD release, other repository meta data can be used during installation. Fedora Extras ISO images could be useful for other scenarios too. Someone interested should step up to do the required work. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC5Future http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/YumBackend regards Rahul From shiser at cloud9.net Thu Aug 11 12:24:06 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (swhiser) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:24:06 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42FB4366.9020002@cloud9.net> Behdad Esfahbod wrote: >On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > >>I agree with this too -- except that a DVD covers only half of our target. >>What we really need: >> >>1. A Live CD; >>2. A one-CD install; >>3. A DVD. >> >> > > > Agree that DVD is expensive and not efficient approach to world-wide market. (Although I dont know what you have that deserves to go on a CD.) One-CD is brilliant. Live CD also. The trouble with One-CD is also bandwidth. -Sam >Just a reminder that the main problem with DVDs is burning them. >The population that can burn a DVD is far far smaller than those >who can read a DVD which is not IMHO _that_ much smaller than >those who can read a CD. So distributing only DVDs is not quite >as bad as having only DVDs for download. > > > >>We can spew out all the DVDs we want, but we're getting killed on the >>one-CD install in most of the world. >> >>My hope is that we make some headway in the Live CD project. It will do >>two things: >> >> a. Give us a Live CD (obviously); >> b. Give us great tools for selecting the right packages for the one-CD >> install. >> >>Darko Ilic of the Live CD project should be putting code up soon. I'm >>hoping to pull a project together, soon, that focuses on this problem. >> >> >Make sure we have a DVD that contains both live and installable >stuff. Better yet is to be able to install right from inside the >live session. > >That's Wooo! You like it? Do you want to >install? > I believe that's 'wwwwhhhhooooo00000()()()()()OOOOOHHHH' >You can browse in the browser for problems you may face >at install time, get on the IRC for some live suppor! AFAIK no >other distro has done that before. That can be a killer feature, >but a bit harder to get, but not thta much ;). > >So, yes, lets go for world domination with FC5. :) > > > >>--g >> >> > >--behdad >http://behdad.org/ > >-- >Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 12:34:16 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:34:16 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> On 8/10/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > This is not a matter of our failure to define Fedora properly to the > community. I disagree. The nebulous fog of an idea's worth of a vague notion that comprises the first paragraph on fedora.redhat.com is an inherent failure. Like it or not, it's the first Google'd hit on "fedora," and it doesn't do Fedora justice. We have also failed to define what Fedora is *not*. The community is looking at Fedora and seeing a pot of code, not a server, not a desktop, not any of the things we might like them to see. Are they seeing what they want to see? Hell yeah, because we're not telling them what *we* want then to see. Our roadmap is equally nebulous. LiveCD? One-CD install? DVD? Put that in the roadmap. Since I know Greg's response will be something like, "So what *you* think we should do Mr. Frye?," here are some suggestions: 1) Stop spending time on decisions that we don't get to make, e.g.. logos - it's just an example, but there will be more like it. 2) Build a plan that's actionable, i.e. one that Red Hat's real marketing team will allow us to execute. Ultimately, any real chances that we want to take must be approved. Red Hat 2005 isn't the Red Hat of 1998, and we don't have real autonomy. 3) Market with information, not just hats and t-shirts. Make it cds, books, dvds, etc. Organize speakers for LUGs. Be one. That's what they really need! That's just for starters. > Beyond that, I don't know that there's much to say. The only way forward > with Fedora is to build the community of developers, and increase the > quality of the offering over time. That's all. How about challenging the "Fedora sucks" guy to a debate? Sometimes that's all it takes (see Martin Luther), but shouldn't just ignore it. MPF From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 13:18:47 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:48:47 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42FB5037.4010800@redhat.com> HI >1) Stop spending time on decisions that we don't get to make, e.g.. >logos - it's just an example, but there will be more like it. > > Logos is a particularly bad example in my opinion since Greg can only convince Red Hat that there is a real interest in the logos from the discussions here. Red Hat tells "No logo " decision. No discussions follows and no logo argument is ever presented to Red Hat. Thats self defeating but we could have started out with defining that "No hat" rule for instance. >2) Build a plan that's actionable, i.e. one that Red Hat's real >marketing team will allow us to execute. Ultimately, any real chances >that we want to take must be approved. Red Hat 2005 isn't the Red Hat >of 1998, and we don't have real autonomy > > This is defining the goals and outlining limitations. >3) Market with information, not just hats and t-shirts. Make it cds, >books, dvds, etc. Organize speakers for LUGs. Be one. That's what >they really need! > >That's just for starters. > Thats a good idea but I expect the formation of a foundation to have a significant impact in funding which determines what could be done. right? regards Rahul From lxmaier at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 13:26:43 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:26:43 +0200 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f617d27050811062614aaa964@mail.gmail.com> Couldn't agree more. As long as the landing pages on fedora.redhat.com and fedoraproject.org keep talking about a "project" and not a distro and who it is meant for, people will imagine all they want, and we will not be able to control this. However, we are in the lucky position of being able to shape the public perception of Fedora by doing just that. As someone who is making her living by marketing Red Hat products, I can tell that 97% or more of the marketing is in information--building halfway usable web pages, buing ad space, organizing events, etc. I would say goodies would weigh in at 3% or less, and they really do not contribute terribly much to the perception of Red Hat which is being formed by all the other activities. If we want public to think about us in a certain way, we have to tell them what to think, and to be credible, of course. So far, I would not say that Fedora sucks any more than any other non-commercial disctibution out there, it's only the perception in the people's minds that accounts for articles like this. A month or so ago, someone on this list mentioned Firefox web page as a positive example of what a web page should look like. If you have not visited this page in a while--go there and have a closer look. Ask yourself what makes it work so well. I completely support Matt's action plan and would like to add a couple of points to it myself. Let's discuss it at the next meeting and start working on stuff perception is made out of! On 8/11/05, Matt Frye wrote: > 1) Stop spending time on decisions that we don't get to make, e.g.. logos - it's just an example, but there will be more like it.-- [a.m] it is true, we need some discussion, but talking about things we can't control over and over is a waste of resources. and to be quite honest, logos do not define brands, it is up to us to define the brand by communicating with the public > 2) Build a plan that's actionable, i.e. one that Red Hat's real marketing team will allow us to execute. Ultimately, any real chances that we want to take must be approved. Red Hat 2005 isn't the Red Hat of 1998, and we don't have real autonomy. -- [a.m] i think we should focus on the stuff we CAN change in the first place and not fret about stuff we can't. how about re-writing these landing pages? > 3) Market with information, not just hats and t-shirts. Make it cds, books, dvds, etc. Organize speakers for LUGs. Be one. That's what they really need! -- [a.m] even though we might not be ready for publishing a book yet, it would be comparably easy to decide on a messaging index and have it spread in the Fedora community so that when we talk about Fedora, we say the same stuff about the same things. It certainly shall not be restrictive, but it would help everybody if everybody knew what our policy for contributions is like, how to invite a speaker to their LUG, when and where the next FUDCon will be etc. 4) Give people ideas: Adding visible links to the Fedora landing pages with stuff we want them to do, such as: "Download Fedora Now" -- "Submit a Bug here" -- "Invite a speaker to your LUG" -- "Find out about next FUDCon here" etc. -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 13:27:39 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:57:39 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> Hi >I disagree. The nebulous fog of an idea's worth of a vague notion >that comprises the first paragraph on fedora.redhat.com is an inherent >failure. Like it or not, it's the first Google'd hit on "fedora," and >it doesn't do Fedora justice. > The primary Fedora website needs more updated content and a redesign. That has been expressed a long time before. We can either have a bounty or convert the main site into a wiki and have a restricted ACL with a set of people working on it regularly. regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 13:39:44 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Mr. Frye calls me out. Well done, sir. OK, so. What is Fedora? Many separate projects with different, but complementary goals. At the center: Fedora Core, a quick-moving, completely open, multipurpose OS. What is Fedora's Goal? To make quality free software available to everyone in the world who wants it. Build from there. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Matt Frye wrote: > On 8/10/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > This is not a matter of our failure to define Fedora properly to the > > community. > > I disagree. The nebulous fog of an idea's worth of a vague notion > that comprises the first paragraph on fedora.redhat.com is an inherent > failure. Like it or not, it's the first Google'd hit on "fedora," and > it doesn't do Fedora justice. > > We have also failed to define what Fedora is *not*. The community is > looking at Fedora and seeing a pot of code, not a server, not a > desktop, not any of the things we might like them to see. Are they > seeing what they want to see? Hell yeah, because we're not telling > them what *we* want then to see. Our roadmap is equally nebulous. > LiveCD? One-CD install? DVD? Put that in the roadmap. > > Since I know Greg's response will be something like, "So what *you* > think we should do Mr. Frye?," here are some suggestions: > > 1) Stop spending time on decisions that we don't get to make, e.g.. > logos - it's just an example, but there will be more like it. > 2) Build a plan that's actionable, i.e. one that Red Hat's real > marketing team will allow us to execute. Ultimately, any real chances > that we want to take must be approved. Red Hat 2005 isn't the Red Hat > of 1998, and we don't have real autonomy. > 3) Market with information, not just hats and t-shirts. Make it cds, > books, dvds, etc. Organize speakers for LUGs. Be one. That's what > they really need! > > That's just for starters. > > > Beyond that, I don't know that there's much to say. The only way forward > > with Fedora is to build the community of developers, and increase the > > quality of the offering over time. That's all. > > How about challenging the "Fedora sucks" guy to a debate? Sometimes > that's all it takes (see Martin Luther), but shouldn't just ignore it. > > MPF > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From gdk at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 13:42:13 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> Message-ID: What do we think about ditching "fedora.redhat.com" entirely and making fedoraproject.org the new home for all this stuff? It's basically happening anyway, due to the inherently limited access to fedora.redhat.com. Most of the useful content is kept on fp.org these days -- with the exception of docs stuff. "fedora.redhat.com" would remain as, basically, a paragraph worth of mission statement and a page full of links. (p.s. I fully expect the docs folks to be livid with that suggestion, heh.) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > >I disagree. The nebulous fog of an idea's worth of a vague notion > >that comprises the first paragraph on fedora.redhat.com is an inherent > >failure. Like it or not, it's the first Google'd hit on "fedora," and > >it doesn't do Fedora justice. > > > The primary Fedora website needs more updated content and a redesign. > That has been expressed a long time before. We can either have a bounty > or convert the main site into a wiki and have a restricted ACL with a > set of people working on it regularly. > > regards > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 13:51:10 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:21:10 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >What do we think about ditching "fedora.redhat.com" entirely and making >fedoraproject.org the new home for all this stuff? > > I support this idea but skvidal has been treating the website as a developer base with the primary site supposedly more user focussed > >"fedora.redhat.com" would remain as, basically, a paragraph worth of >mission statement and a page full of links. > > That would lead to confusion. If we are moving to fedoraproject.org, we should do that for good and get rid of fedora.redhat.com regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 13:59:00 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >What do we think about ditching "fedora.redhat.com" entirely and making > >fedoraproject.org the new home for all this stuff? > > I support this idea but skvidal has been treating the website as a > developer base with the primary site supposedly more user focussed If people believe this to be the right idea, I believe that we can convince Mr. Vidal without too much difficulty. For instance, Alex is already maintaining the lion's share of FUDCon content at fp.org. Why? Because it's easier. > > > >"fedora.redhat.com" would remain as, basically, a paragraph worth of > >mission statement and a page full of links. > > > > > That would lead to confusion. If we are moving to fedoraproject.org, we > should do that for good and get rid of fedora.redhat.com Let me rephrase: We would keep fedora.redhat.com to acknowledge Fedora's association with Red Hat, and the "page of links" would be links to fedoraproject.org. We can't just make f.r.c disappear. I suppose we could redirect DNS, though. But I think f.r.c has a (minimal) place. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 14:04:42 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:34:42 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> Hi >If people believe this to be the right idea, I believe that we can >convince Mr. Vidal without too much difficulty. For instance, Alex is >already maintaining the lion's share of FUDCon content at fp.org. Why? >Because it's easier. > > Right. Just pointing that the focus of the site needs to be changed >Let me rephrase: > >We would keep fedora.redhat.com to acknowledge Fedora's association with >Red Hat, and the "page of links" would be links to fedoraproject.org. We >can't just make f.r.c disappear. > >I suppose we could redirect DNS, though. But I think f.r.c has a >(minimal) place. > Fedora.redhat.com redirects to fedoraproject.org sounds fine. What do you think is the purpose served by f.r.c? regards Rahul From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 14:19:27 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:19:27 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05081107192f44f3e6@mail.gmail.com> On 8/11/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >What do we think about ditching "fedora.redhat.com" entirely and making > > >fedoraproject.org the new home for all this stuff? I am all for this and I agree that convincing seth won't be huge. Docs will have to get over it if this move's inevitability is true. > > >"fedora.redhat.com" would remain as, basically, a paragraph worth of > > >mission statement and a page full of links...We would keep fedora.redhat.com to > acknowledge Fedora's association with Red Hat, and the "page of links" would be links to > fedoraproject.org. I am all for that too. MPF From patrickmailing at narmida.com Thu Aug 11 14:28:06 2005 From: patrickmailing at narmida.com ((Mailings) Patrick Lambooy) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:28:06 +0200 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> I dont think dropping the fedora.redhat.com is a good id. Same ID as killing you parents. a referal to fedoraproject.org is a good id. Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > >> If people believe this to be the right idea, I believe that we can >> convince Mr. Vidal without too much difficulty. For instance, Alex >> is already maintaining the lion's share of FUDCon content at fp.org. >> Why? Because it's easier. >> >> > Right. Just pointing that the focus of the site needs to be changed > > >> Let me rephrase: >> >> We would keep fedora.redhat.com to acknowledge Fedora's association >> with Red Hat, and the "page of links" would be links to >> fedoraproject.org. We can't just make f.r.c disappear. >> >> I suppose we could redirect DNS, though. But I think f.r.c has a >> (minimal) place. >> > Fedora.redhat.com redirects to fedoraproject.org sounds fine. What do > you think is the purpose served by f.r.c? > > regards > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 14:31:46 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:01:46 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> Message-ID: <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> (Mailings) Patrick Lambooy wrote: > I dont think dropping the fedora.redhat.com is a good id. > Same ID as killing you parents. Dont over dramatise it. I dont see a purpose being served by two websites regards Rahul From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 15:04:30 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:04:30 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> On 8/11/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > (Mailings) Patrick Lambooy wrote: > > > I dont think dropping the fedora.redhat.com is a good id. > > Same ID as killing you parents. > > Dont over dramatise it. I dont see a purpose being served by two websites Many people know of and have probably linked to fedora.redhat.com and/or www.redhat.com/fedora. There's really no harm in having multiple routes to one main site at fedoraproject.org, confusion steps in when you have multiple parallel (and out of sync) end destinations. I don't see f.r.c or w.r.c/f as destinations going forward so much as landing ramps that guide folks to the right spot. At least temporarily, it makes sense to have an abstract about Fedora and links to the main project page from those pages before setting up a redirect or killing the URL. Meanwhile pointing folks to the main site in all new communications. Stats will show when f.r.c is getting no more hits. --jeremy From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 15:06:41 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:36:41 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42FB6981.2030103@redhat.com> Jeremy Hogan wrote: >On 8/11/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>(Mailings) Patrick Lambooy wrote: >> >> >> >>>I dont think dropping the fedora.redhat.com is a good id. >>>Same ID as killing you parents. >>> >>> >>Dont over dramatise it. I dont see a purpose being served by two websites >> >> > >Many people know of and have probably linked to fedora.redhat.com >and/or www.redhat.com/fedora. > A simple redirection solves that problem as I already mentioned. If this is not clear yet why do we need two independant websites? regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 15:13:01 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wot 'e said. +1. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > On 8/11/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > (Mailings) Patrick Lambooy wrote: > > > > > I dont think dropping the fedora.redhat.com is a good id. > > > Same ID as killing you parents. > > > > Dont over dramatise it. I dont see a purpose being served by two websites > > Many people know of and have probably linked to fedora.redhat.com > and/or www.redhat.com/fedora. There's really no harm in having > multiple routes to one main site at fedoraproject.org, confusion steps > in when you have multiple parallel (and out of sync) end destinations. > I don't see f.r.c or w.r.c/f as destinations going forward so much as > landing ramps that guide folks to the right spot. > > At least temporarily, it makes sense to have an abstract about Fedora > and links to the main project page from those pages before setting up > a redirect or killing the URL. Meanwhile pointing folks to the main > site in all new communications. Stats will show when f.r.c is getting > no more hits. > > --jeremy > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 15:20:46 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:20:46 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> Let's do it then. Who's responsible for f.r.c? On 8/11/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Wot 'e said. +1. > > --g > > > At least temporarily, it makes sense to have an abstract about Fedora > > and links to the main project page from those pages before setting up > > a redirect or killing the URL. Meanwhile pointing folks to the main > > site in all new communications. Stats will show when f.r.c is getting > > no more hits. From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 15:26:39 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:56:39 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> Matt Frye wrote: >Let's do it then. Who's responsible for f.r.c? > Hold on a minute. Fedoraproject.org needs to be revamped *before* setting up any redirects from http://fedora.redhat.com. fedoraproject.org is now just a bunch of links and a wiki. regards Rahul From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Aug 11 15:29:34 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:29:34 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1123774174.8089.8.camel@cutter> > If people believe this to be the right idea, I believe that we can > convince Mr. Vidal without too much difficulty. For instance, Alex is > already maintaining the lion's share of FUDCon content at fp.org. Why? > Because it's easier. > I'm Mr. Vidal now? Two things going on about the fedora project website. 1. I've asked for money internally to get a bright new shiny box there. 2. I've asked for money externally to get a bright new shiny box there. One way or the other it's going to happen, I hope, so let's work on that basis. Some good folks are doing the redesign of the site you can see lots of it here: http://fedoraproject.org/mockups/ look in the subdirs - that's where the most recent drafts are. That's coming along well but it's not complete yet. now with regard to moving everything to fedoraproject.org. The biggest logistical headache will be managing accounts of people who can access change the site and doing it reasonably. There are a few different options I can think of but I'd like to hear what y'all are thinking. -sv From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 15:31:33 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:01:33 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123774174.8089.8.camel@cutter> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123774174.8089.8.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42FB6F55.1040801@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: >>If people believe this to be the right idea, I believe that we can >>convince Mr. Vidal without too much difficulty. For instance, Alex is >>already maintaining the lion's share of FUDCon content at fp.org. Why? >>Because it's easier. >> >> >> > > >I'm Mr. Vidal now? > > > > You want even more respect?. I guess that can be arranged. >now with regard to moving everything to fedoraproject.org. > >The biggest logistical headache will be managing accounts of people who >can access change the site and doing it reasonably. There are a few >different options I can think of but I'd like to hear what y'all are >thinking. > >-sv > > Different ACL groups with the major pages restricted to small teams. We dont want everyone changing the main page or schedule for example. regards Rahul From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Aug 11 15:35:29 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:35:29 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <42FB6F55.1040801@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123774174.8089.8.camel@cutter> <42FB6F55.1040801@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1123774530.8089.14.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 21:01 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > >>If people believe this to be the right idea, I believe that we can > >>convince Mr. Vidal without too much difficulty. For instance, Alex is > >>already maintaining the lion's share of FUDCon content at fp.org. Why? > >>Because it's easier. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >I'm Mr. Vidal now? > > > > > > > > > You want even more respect?. I guess that can be arranged. haha. I tend to prefer 'seth' or 'that arrogant prick'. Either works, really. > Different ACL groups with the major pages restricted to small teams. We > dont want everyone changing the main page or schedule for example. right - so we want to make the whole site a wiki? Or travel down another path. -sv From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 15:36:36 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:06:36 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123774530.8089.14.camel@cutter> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123774174.8089.8.camel@cutter> <42FB6F55.1040801@redhat.com> <1123774530.8089.14.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42FB7084.8010801@redhat.com> Hi > >haha. > >I tend to prefer 'seth' or 'that arrogant prick'. Either works, really. > > Seth you are then. > > > >>Different ACL groups with the major pages restricted to small teams. We >>dont want everyone changing the main page or schedule for example. >> >> > >right - so we want to make the whole site a wiki? Or travel down another >path. > >-sv > I would prefer everything being a wiki. It makes it easier for people who actually do edit the page an easier process unless we want such stuff in cvs and all that as we do it currently in f.r.c. It makes the barrier to entry higher without significant advantages IMO regards Rahul From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Aug 11 15:39:50 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:39:50 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1123774790.8431.0.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 19:21 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >What do we think about ditching "fedora.redhat.com" entirely and making > >fedoraproject.org the new home for all this stuff? > > > > > I support this idea but skvidal has been treating the website as a > developer base with the primary site supposedly more user focussed It's what we discussed previously so that's what I pursued. I wasn't just going off on my own for that. :) -sv From caillon at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 15:44:05 2005 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:44:05 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123774174.8089.8.camel@cutter> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123774174.8089.8.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42FB7245.2040408@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > Some good folks are doing the redesign of the site you can see lots of > it here: > http://fedoraproject.org/mockups/ http://fedoraproject.org/mockup/ From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Aug 11 16:41:06 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:41:06 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <42FB7245.2040408@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123774174.8089.8.camel@cutter> <42FB7245.2040408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1123778466.8431.4.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 11:44 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > Some good folks are doing the redesign of the site you can see lots of > > it here: > > http://fedoraproject.org/mockups/ > > http://fedoraproject.org/mockup/ > whoops. sorry. -sv From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 16:39:36 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:39:36 -0400 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> On 8/11/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Matt Frye wrote: > > >Let's do it then. Who's responsible for f.r.c? > > > Hold on a minute. Fedoraproject.org needs to be revamped... I meant that in a general sense of approval, rather than "do it now." Moving "real" pages on f.r.c would be coordinated with whoever is responsible for them, so who is that? In any case, http://fedoraproject.org/mockup/ has some pretty nice design. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Aug 11 16:43:24 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:43:24 -0400 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1123778604.8431.6.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 12:39 -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > On 8/11/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Matt Frye wrote: > > > > >Let's do it then. Who's responsible for f.r.c? > > > > > Hold on a minute. Fedoraproject.org needs to be revamped... > > I meant that in a general sense of approval, rather than "do it now." > Moving "real" pages on f.r.c would be coordinated with whoever is > responsible for them, so who is that? > > In any case, http://fedoraproject.org/mockup/ has some pretty nice design. > In case you don't already have a wiki account, make one then go into user preferences and select 'sinorca4moin' as your theme. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 16:44:20 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:44:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Generally speaking: * Individual project owners are responsible for individual project pages. * Legal is responsible for the trademark content. * For lack of any clearly defined owners, I might just as well be considered the "owner" of everything else. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Matt Frye wrote: > On 8/11/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Matt Frye wrote: > > > > >Let's do it then. Who's responsible for f.r.c? > > > > > Hold on a minute. Fedoraproject.org needs to be revamped... > > I meant that in a general sense of approval, rather than "do it now." > Moving "real" pages on f.r.c would be coordinated with whoever is > responsible for them, so who is that? > > In any case, http://fedoraproject.org/mockup/ has some pretty nice design. > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 22:02:58 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:02:58 -0700 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1123797778.5264.64.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 12:44 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Generally speaking: > > * Individual project owners are responsible for individual project pages. > > * Legal is responsible for the trademark content. > > * For lack of any clearly defined owners, I might just as well be > considered the "owner" of everything else. I also have CVS access and tend to just do stuff, until someone yells at me. I'm happy to get in such trouble to get some stuff updated. See my other email for other detailed thoughts. - Karsten > --g > > _____________________ ____________________________________________ > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Matt Frye wrote: > > > On 8/11/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > Matt Frye wrote: > > > > > > >Let's do it then. Who's responsible for f.r.c? > > > > > > > Hold on a minute. Fedoraproject.org needs to be revamped... > > > > I meant that in a general sense of approval, rather than "do it now." > > Moving "real" pages on f.r.c would be coordinated with whoever is > > responsible for them, so who is that? > > > > In any case, http://fedoraproject.org/mockup/ has some pretty nice design. > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 11 22:16:13 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:16:13 -0700 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1123798574.5264.72.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 09:42 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > What do we think about ditching "fedora.redhat.com" entirely and making > fedoraproject.org the new home for all this stuff? In general, whatever. Usual caveats about not killing the old site, etc. > It's basically happening anyway, due to the inherently limited access to > fedora.redhat.com. Most of the useful content is kept on fp.org these > days -- with the exception of docs stuff. Which happens for the same reason, we don't have a way to host our documentation on fedoraproject.org. I know we can ask, but what we have works fine for now and is currently considered canonical. > "fedora.redhat.com" would remain as, basically, a paragraph worth of > mission statement and a page full of links. I think we can do that ASAP, which means after we update the page at fedoraproject.org itself to reflect the new, all-inclusive nature of the site. Or something. > (p.s. I fully expect the docs folks to be livid with that suggestion, > heh.) The only thing I'd be livid at is a suggestion that we ever vaporize what is hosted at f.r.c/docs. Google is our friend, but we can't control the what goes to the top of the search results. I don't know about redirect, it's something to discuss. IMHO, we don't want to go away from a high-end publishing system, and DocBook is fairly It. We can have a Wiki front-end, and a Wiki with a better schema, but many of us are going to continue to do the right thing. What's that? Emacs, DocBook, and CVS baby! - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Aug 12 03:56:24 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:56:24 +0800 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: <1123778604.8431.6.camel@cutter> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <1123778604.8431.6.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1123818985.1552.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 12:43 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > > In any case, http://fedoraproject.org/mockup/ has some pretty nice design. Damn nice designs I think they look very nice. The blue and for me icons wise I prefer just the written Fedora Core or FC than a dog or anything else but thats just me. I'm a simpleton :) Regards Marc From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Aug 12 13:33:08 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:33:08 +1000 Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <1123745111.17624.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42FAE13F.2080604@redhat.com> <1123745111.17624.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1123853588.4311.1.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 15:25 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Does that mean we are going to be proceeding with this? > > My only concern is that I would love to be a part of it however I have > very little to offer. We wanted to discuss this at the last marketing meeting, but you were a no show Marc There's going to be one this coming week - can you make it (I realise 1am on a Friday isn't too good for you in .au - I'm there too -- gives you a little excuse to head to the pub :P) > I think possibly maybe we should ask the developers whether they are > interested in contributing to it. I don't feel that we should proceed > if the most important part of it isn't interested. Ask them when there's actually a plan abound -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 13:41:40 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:41:40 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 09:59 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >"fedora.redhat.com" would remain as, basically, a paragraph worth of > > >mission statement and a page full of links. > > > > > > > > That would lead to confusion. If we are moving to fedoraproject.org, we > > should do that for good and get rid of fedora.redhat.com > > Let me rephrase: > > We would keep fedora.redhat.com to acknowledge Fedora's association with > Red Hat, and the "page of links" would be links to fedoraproject.org. We > can't just make f.r.c disappear. > > I suppose we could redirect DNS, though. But I think f.r.c has a > (minimal) place. Warning to the faint of heart: The following contains some criticisms by a die-hard Red Hat fan and Fedora user (and doc writer/editor). No ulterior motives here other than getting people to realize how GREAT Fedora is, and could be. Pointing to Alex's earlier comments, f.r.c needs to be more than just a "page of links" pointing to fp.org. If the page is to move through redirection, as makes sense with the eventual coalescence of the Fedora Foundation, it still needs to be canonical and full of marketing goodness, as opposed to providing dry statements about project positioning. (Frankly, it should also not be wiki-editable, given those first two requirements.) Alex made reference to the Firefox page as being a great example of how to drive perception of a product, and she is right on the money. The Firefox page answers a number of questions in the top 50% or so of the main screen, such as: - "What is this?" Not written for Linux people or open-source people, written for general-purpose computing users. - "Why would I want this, as opposed to (what I've already got | something else)?" - "What does it take for me to get it?" Out of these questions, which do you think is most important? My personal feeling is "Why?". Why would I want Fedora? Why would I want to contribute to this community? Why this over some other distribution? By way of comparison, the f.r.c main page makes references to projects and proving grounds, and does not appeal to any sort of audience that is not part of the Fedora community already. In fact, the first paragraph of the page spends more time talking about the relationship with Red Hat than why anyone might want to use the distribution. Take a look: the word "community" appears once. The name "Red Hat" appears thrice. My point is not to de-emphasize Red Hat's (more than) substantial contributions to the project. It is that people looking at the distro as either their first foray into Linux or to scratch a Linux itch don't see any compelling reasons to pick Fedora when they look at our web page. The Firefox page has compelling reasons why. Because it's more secure. Because it's faster. Because it gives you more choices. Because it's better. Where are our compelling reasons for Fedora? We *link* to some more information about the project, but in marketing the first impression is often the only impression. What jumps out at you when the page loads? "Fedora Project at LinuxWorld San Francisco 2005." Which is awesome, don't get me wrong, but not nearly the magnetic draw that we want for Fedora to nab new community members. News like this needs to be shunted off to a different page. The front page should be all about why, why, why. Why get involved? And frankly, "why use?", because without *regular* people *using* the product, Fedora really does seem eventually destined to be dismissed as a cheap labor source. If someone does drill down into the pages to which we link -- About and Objectives in particular, assuming they take the time -- almost make the project sound like a "by us, *for* us" group, an attitude which bears little resemblance to those of community members with whom I've had the pleasure of dealing. While certainly the project must encourage contribution and discourage free-loading in order to survive, the way the concept is promulgated by the f.r.c pages comes across as a little exclusionary. This may be a necessity to keep people from thinking of Fedora as a product that carries some entitlement such as support, but the front page should be a more welcoming and encouraging experience for a newcomer. (The "more flies with honey than vinegar" theory at work.) We encourage contribution by giving people a satisfactory experience using Fedora first. Bugzilla reports are a big step, but we can get newcomers there through patience, accessible documentation and consistent usability. I taught at a national (U.S.) conference earlier this week and my audience, technical professionals who are not developers or service providers, included a lot of frequent Linux users. About 15% of the distro users were on Fedora. What was surprising was the number of people who had jumped ship from Red Hat Linux to some free distro other than Fedora because of misinformation (instability was the most-cited factor). I'm not sure what this has to do with my argument above, but I wanted to toss this out there before I forgot to mention it. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 13:54:03 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:24:03 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42FCA9FB.4080203@redhat.com> Hi >Alex made reference to the Firefox page as being a great example of how >to drive perception of a product, and she is right on the money. The >Firefox page answers a number of questions in the top 50% or so of the >main screen, such as: > >- "What is this?" Not written for Linux people or open-source people, >written for general-purpose computing users. >- "Why would I want this, as opposed to (what I've already got | >something else)?" >- "What does it take for me to get it?" > I think everyone here agrees that the current page isnt good enough. Someone should just design an alternative front page and present that rather than provide directions. Go on. Use your writing and web design skills to demonstrate what a nice Fedora website could be all about. regards Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 13:56:12 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:56:12 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1123854972.3673.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 09:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Mr. Frye calls me out. Well done, sir. > > OK, so. What is Fedora? > > Many separate projects with different, but complementary goals. At the > center: Fedora Core, a quick-moving, completely open, multipurpose OS. > > What is Fedora's Goal? > > To make quality free software available to everyone in the world who wants > it. > > Build from there. :) I was worried my earlier comments were irrelevant, but now I see they actually make (some) sense. "Everyone in the world" (!= "Every experienced Linux user in the world") therefore needs to see more general-purpose information at the start of the tour to increase willingness to spend time using, and hopefully contributing to, Fedora. Project information for current contributors easily accessible, but marketing front and center. I hear people talking about "Wiki everywhere," about which I have minor trepidation, mainly due to the inability of some incredibly competent technical people to write well. As long as general audiences see a polished face on the "landing ramp" or other entry point, and get their "what? why? how?" questions answered without a lot of link hopping, I'm satisfied (for whatever that's worth). The Docs team should stand ready to help Marketing with this to whatever extent necessary or desired. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 14:14:56 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:44:56 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123854972.3673.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <1123854972.3673.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42FCAEE0.6080703@redhat.com> Hi >I hear people talking about "Wiki everywhere," about which I have minor >trepidation, mainly due to the inability of some incredibly competent >technical people to write well. > They can just stay away from the front pages and edit the technical content. > As long as general audiences see a >polished face on the "landing ramp" or other entry point, and get their >"what? why? how?" questions answered without a lot of link hopping, I'm >satisfied (for whatever that's worth). The Docs team should stand ready >to help Marketing with this to whatever extent necessary or desired > Along similar lines, some amount of the release notes work can be managed by the marketing team as long as we dont over do it. In particular I would appreciate suggestions on improving http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/#sn-new-in-fc regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 14:25:47 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Great post, Paul. Comments inline. On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Warning to the faint of heart: The following contains some criticisms by > a die-hard Red Hat fan and Fedora user (and doc writer/editor). No > ulterior motives here other than getting people to realize how GREAT > Fedora is, and could be. I was expecting a flaming punch in the mouth. What follows is nothing of the sort. :) > Pointing to Alex's earlier comments, f.r.c needs to be more than just a > "page of links" pointing to fp.org. If the page is to move through > redirection, as makes sense with the eventual coalescence of the Fedora > Foundation, it still needs to be canonical and full of marketing > goodness, as opposed to providing dry statements about project > positioning. (Frankly, it should also not be wiki-editable, given those > first two requirements.) /me nods. This makes sense to me. The real key, IMHO, is to minimize the static messaging here, and maximizing the dynamic messaging at fp.org. Both have their place, I think. > Alex made reference to the Firefox page as being a great example of how > to drive perception of a product, and she is right on the money. The > Firefox page answers a number of questions in the top 50% or so of the > main screen, such as: > > - "What is this?" Not written for Linux people or open-source people, > written for general-purpose computing users. > - "Why would I want this, as opposed to (what I've already got | > something else)?" > - "What does it take for me to get it?" > > Out of these questions, which do you think is most important? My > personal feeling is "Why?". Why would I want Fedora? Why would I want > to contribute to this community? Why this over some other > distribution? > > By way of comparison, the f.r.c main page makes references to projects > and proving grounds, and does not appeal to any sort of audience that is > not part of the Fedora community already. In fact, the first paragraph > of the page spends more time talking about the relationship with Red Hat > than why anyone might want to use the distribution. Take a look: the > word "community" appears once. The name "Red Hat" appears thrice. My > point is not to de-emphasize Red Hat's (more than) substantial > contributions to the project. It is that people looking at the distro > as either their first foray into Linux or to scratch a Linux itch don't > see any compelling reasons to pick Fedora when they look at our web > page. Point taken. > The Firefox page has compelling reasons why. Because it's more secure. > Because it's faster. Because it gives you more choices. Because it's > better. > > Where are our compelling reasons for Fedora? We have to agree on this question before we can answer this question. > We *link* to some more information about the project, but in marketing > the first impression is often the only impression. What jumps out at > you when the page loads? > > "Fedora Project at LinuxWorld San Francisco 2005." > > Which is awesome, don't get me wrong, but not nearly the magnetic draw > that we want for Fedora to nab new community members. News like this > needs to be shunted off to a different page. The front page should be > all about why, why, why. Why get involved? And frankly, "why use?", > because without *regular* people *using* the product, Fedora really does > seem eventually destined to be dismissed as a cheap labor source. > > If someone does drill down into the pages to which we link -- About and > Objectives in particular, assuming they take the time -- almost make the > project sound like a "by us, *for* us" group, an attitude which bears > little resemblance to those of community members with whom I've had the > pleasure of dealing. While certainly the project must encourage > contribution and discourage free-loading in order to survive, the way > the concept is promulgated by the f.r.c pages comes across as a little > exclusionary. /me nods. I can see that, yes. > This may be a necessity to keep people from thinking of Fedora as a > product that carries some entitlement such as support, but the front > page should be a more welcoming and encouraging experience for a > newcomer. (The "more flies with honey than vinegar" theory at work.) > We encourage contribution by giving people a satisfactory experience > using Fedora first. Bugzilla reports are a big step, but we can get > newcomers there through patience, accessible documentation and > consistent usability. > > I taught at a national (U.S.) conference earlier this week and my > audience, technical professionals who are not developers or service > providers, included a lot of frequent Linux users. About 15% of the > distro users were on Fedora. What was surprising was the number of > people who had jumped ship from Red Hat Linux to some free distro other > than Fedora because of misinformation (instability was the most-cited > factor). I'm not sure what this has to do with my argument above, but I > wanted to toss this out there before I forgot to mention it. And this is the elephant in the room. Fedora has its current reputation among many folks -- "dumping ground for unstable crap" -- because it is the message that Red Hat initially *gave* about Fedora in order to distinguish between "supported" and "not supported". In those first scary days after the split, we might as well have put biohazard labels in the ransom notes: "NOT FOR SERIOUS USE! ABORT, ENTERPRISE USER, ABORT!" The new message, it seems to me, should be something like: "best combination of cutting-edge and stable that can be made available. Snapshot of the latest and greatest. Heart of a world of user-driven packages." But again, "why Fedora"? For those who are not already converted, it's the most important question we can answer, and as Paul points out, we're not currently doing a very good job of it. Maybe this one question merits its own marketing meeting. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From mschwendt at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 14:43:51 2005 From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:43:51 +0200 Subject: Someone's missing the point... In-Reply-To: <42FAFFF0.3090605@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123745361.17624.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42FAFFF0.3090605@redhat.com> Message-ID: <440f31f605081207432162d98b@mail.gmail.com> On 11/08/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Yum is FC4 is pretty fast. I havent tested the raw numbers but thats > besides the point since APT4RPM is a dead end As a side-note here, Apt4rpm is still only the suite of scripts to aid in creating an Apt repository from RPM packages. http://apt4rpm.sf.net So, although it becomes clear that you want to refer to APT-RPM (or Apt-RPM) instead, that is different software. From mschwendt at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 14:48:25 2005 From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:48:25 +0200 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> On 11/08/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Generally speaking: > > * Individual project owners are responsible for individual project pages. > > * Legal is responsible for the trademark content. > > * For lack of any clearly defined owners, I might just as well be > considered the "owner" of everything else. Where may I find out about localised versions of the main Fedora web page? (That is, translations into e.g. German, French, Italian, Polish, etc.) Is a project working on that? From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Aug 12 14:56:16 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:56:16 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1123858576.17749.3.camel@cutter> > But again, "why Fedora"? For those who are not already converted, it's > the most important question we can answer, and as Paul points out, we're > not currently doing a very good job of it. > > Maybe this one question merits its own marketing meeting. :) > An odd selling point for me: Use RHEL? Wanna influence directly the stuff that gets into RHEL and the development direction? Wanna cut your teeth on new technologies that will show up in RHEL, later? Then help out with Fedora. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 14:54:04 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On 11/08/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > Generally speaking: > > > > * Individual project owners are responsible for individual project pages. > > > > * Legal is responsible for the trademark content. > > > > * For lack of any clearly defined owners, I might just as well be > > considered the "owner" of everything else. > > Where may I find out about localised versions of the main Fedora web > page? (That is, translations into e.g. German, French, Italian, > Polish, etc.) Is a project working on that? Another good point. To the best of my knowledge, there's not a thing going on in this regard. A potentially very obvious reason why Fedora is ignored in much of the world. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 15:01:18 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:31:18 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123858576.17749.3.camel@cutter> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123858576.17749.3.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42FCB9BE.3080502@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: >>But again, "why Fedora"? For those who are not already converted, it's >>the most important question we can answer, and as Paul points out, we're >>not currently doing a very good job of it. >> >>Maybe this one question merits its own marketing meeting. :) >> >> >> > >An odd selling point for me: > > Use RHEL? Wanna influence directly the stuff that gets into RHEL and >the development direction? Wanna cut your teeth on new technologies that >will show up in RHEL, later? Then help out with Fedora. > >-sv > That doesnt look very odd to me. I am pretty sure alteast some of the end users of Fedora are directly related to their RHEL usage and vice versa regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 15:01:28 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123858576.17749.3.camel@cutter> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123858576.17749.3.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, seth vidal wrote: > > But again, "why Fedora"? For those who are not already converted, it's > > the most important question we can answer, and as Paul points out, we're > > not currently doing a very good job of it. > > > > Maybe this one question merits its own marketing meeting. :) > > > > An odd selling point for me: > > Use RHEL? Wanna influence directly the stuff that gets into RHEL and the > development direction? Wanna cut your teeth on new technologies that > will show up in RHEL, later? Then help out with Fedora. "Odd," as in, "you don't think it matters"? Because it matters deeply to some of our actual customers, and that's important to us. But maybe that's the messaging we give in RH-land, not in Fedora-land. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From stuart at elsn.org Fri Aug 12 16:18:01 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:18:01 +0100 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 10:25 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > And this is the elephant in the room. Fedora has its current reputation > among many folks -- "dumping ground for unstable crap" -- because it is > the message that Red Hat initially *gave* about Fedora in order to > distinguish between "supported" and "not supported". In those first scary > days after the split, we might as well have put biohazard labels in the > ransom notes: "NOT FOR SERIOUS USE! ABORT, ENTERPRISE USER, ABORT!" Very much so...there's not a lot of positive talking points around, just negatives, and so those are what people repeat. The words "support" and "stability" also seem to cause a lot of confusion when they are used, regardless of the intent. Perhaps marketing material should use different terms to differentiate things like API stability vs. five-nines stability, vs. not crashing in normal use ? > But again, "why Fedora"? For those who are not already converted, it's > the most important question we can answer, and as Paul points out, we're > not currently doing a very good job of it. It might be worth thinking about it in terms of use cases. It's easy for other people to say that "Debian stable is for your servers" or "Ubuntu is great for your desktops". But, "Fedora is for ???" For what it's worth, I advocate Fedora as the best distribution for teaching and learning Linux - easy setup to get you going, config tools that don't interfere with CLI use, cutting edge tech without being unstable, everything you learn on your PC transferable to RHEL/CentOS on Serious Enterprise Hardware. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 16:24:02 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Stuart Ellis wrote: > Very much so...there's not a lot of positive talking points around, just > negatives, and so those are what people repeat. The words "support" and > "stability" also seem to cause a lot of confusion when they are used, > regardless of the intent. Perhaps marketing material should use > different terms to differentiate things like API stability vs. > five-nines stability, vs. not crashing in normal use ? > > > But again, "why Fedora"? For those who are not already converted, it's > > the most important question we can answer, and as Paul points out, we're > > not currently doing a very good job of it. > > It might be worth thinking about it in terms of use cases. It's easy > for other people to say that "Debian stable is for your servers" or > "Ubuntu is great for your desktops". But, "Fedora is for ???" > > For what it's worth, I advocate Fedora as the best distribution for > teaching and learning Linux - easy setup to get you going, config tools > that don't interfere with CLI use, cutting edge tech without being > unstable, everything you learn on your PC transferable to RHEL/CentOS on > Serious Enterprise Hardware. I like that one, very bullet-pointy and identifies an immediate "vertical". "Teaching and learning Linux." Any others? (Of course, for reasons that must surely appear obvious, I'd rather not see CentOS mentioned in the same breath as RHEL. I spend too much time with lawyers as it is.) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From thulshof at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 16:39:59 2005 From: thulshof at gmail.com (Thijs Hulshof) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:39:59 +0200 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <9590b2a805081209397b47732c@mail.gmail.com> On 8/12/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > Very much so...there's not a lot of positive talking points around, just > > negatives, and so those are what people repeat. The words "support" and > > "stability" also seem to cause a lot of confusion when they are used, > > regardless of the intent. Perhaps marketing material should use > > different terms to differentiate things like API stability vs. > > five-nines stability, vs. not crashing in normal use ? > > > > > But again, "why Fedora"? For those who are not already converted, it's > > > the most important question we can answer, and as Paul points out, > we're > > > not currently doing a very good job of it. > > > > It might be worth thinking about it in terms of use cases. It's easy > > for other people to say that "Debian stable is for your servers" or > > "Ubuntu is great for your desktops". But, "Fedora is for ???" > > > > For what it's worth, I advocate Fedora as the best distribution for > > teaching and learning Linux - easy setup to get you going, config tools > > that don't interfere with CLI use, cutting edge tech without being > > unstable, everything you learn on your PC transferable to RHEL/CentOS on > > Serious Enterprise Hardware. > > I like that one, very bullet-pointy and identifies an immediate > "vertical". "Teaching and learning Linux." Any others? Not everyone wants to learn things about Linux. Example: My dad is running Fedora Core without problems, but he isn't really interested in computers. "Teaching and learning Linux." - and when you've learnt things about Linux with Fedora, you should move to another distribution ?? I understand what you mean, but maybe others don't (that can cause a new image-problem). I think we should focus on: - "Normal" users, those who just want to use the internet, OpenOffice.org, etc. without problems. - Those who want to learn Linux, like you already said. - Thijs (Of course, for reasons that must surely appear obvious, I'd rather not > see CentOS mentioned in the same breath as RHEL. I spend too much time > with lawyers as it is.) > > --g > > _____________________ ____________________________________________ > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart at elsn.org Fri Aug 12 17:25:46 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:25:46 +0100 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <9590b2a805081209397b47732c@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9590b2a805081209397b47732c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1123867546.3564.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 18:39 +0200, Thijs Hulshof wrote: > > I like that one, very bullet-pointy and identifies an > immediate > "vertical". "Teaching and learning Linux." Any others? > > Not everyone wants to learn things about Linux. Example: My dad is > running Fedora Core without problems, but he isn't really interested > in computers. > > "Teaching and learning Linux." - and when you've learnt things about > Linux with Fedora, you should move to another distribution ?? It's one use where I personally feel that Fedora really stands out from Ubuntu and OpenSUSE, which are the obvious alternatives ("competitors" is probably not the best way of thinking about it). > I understand what you mean, but maybe others don't (that can cause a > new image-problem). > > I think we should focus on: > - "Normal" users, those who just want to use the internet, > OpenOffice.org, etc. without problems. Bear in mind, though, that normal users don't install operating systems. If Fedora is on a normal user's PC then somebody else to chose to install it on the machine instead of the alternatives (perhaps over the top of an existing Windows install). "Home desktops that you maintain for other people" is definitely another common use case. Personally I feel that Fedora is currently less suited to this than some other distros. For example, the quantity of updates is problematic for systems with dial-up connections. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 17:31:59 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:01:59 +0530 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123867546.3564.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9590b2a805081209397b47732c@mail.gmail.com> <1123867546.3564.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42FCDD0F.1030706@redhat.com> Hi >"Home desktops that you maintain for other people" is definitely another >common use case. Personally I feel that Fedora is currently less suited >to this than some other distros. For example, the quantity of updates >is problematic for systems with dial-up connections. > We cant really reduce the number of updates without changing the design of the project. The previous method of backporting has been replaced with the goal of sticking close to upstream versions as much as possible. What can possibly be done is to mark every update with a grade from say 1 to 5 and have the updater use a higher number for users who only want the very criticial updates Any other ideas? regards Rahul From stuart at elsn.org Fri Aug 12 17:48:01 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:48:01 +0100 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <42FCDD0F.1030706@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9590b2a805081209397b47732c@mail.gmail.com> <1123867546.3564.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42FCDD0F.1030706@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1123868881.3564.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 23:01 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > >"Home desktops that you maintain for other people" is definitely another > >common use case. Personally I feel that Fedora is currently less suited > >to this than some other distros. For example, the quantity of updates > >is problematic for systems with dial-up connections. > > > We cant really reduce the number of updates without changing the design > of the project. I'm not suggesting that we do - it's just a design choice that suits the aims of Fedora but (IMO) makes it less suited to the case that Thijs mentioned. Frequent updates is probably a good talking point for other cases, like "hobbyist desktops" and "OSS developer workstations". -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 18:28:45 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:28:45 -0700 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 10:54 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > > Where may I find out about localised versions of the main Fedora web > > page? (That is, translations into e.g. German, French, Italian, > > Polish, etc.) Is a project working on that? > > Another good point. To the best of my knowledge, there's not a thing > going on in this regard. A potentially very obvious reason why Fedora is > ignored in much of the world. Just don't let anyone start translating it yet! I don't see how we can translate the Wiki, considering how often it changes. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 18:33:29 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Another good point. To the best of my knowledge, there's not a thing > > going on in this regard. A potentially very obvious reason why Fedora is > > ignored in much of the world. > > Just don't let anyone start translating it yet! > > I don't see how we can translate the Wiki, considering how often it > changes. Seems like another good argument for two sets of data: static data, that is translated into every language we can think of; and dynamic data, which remains English-only. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 18:39:01 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:09:01 +0530 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <42FCECC5.4010906@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > >>>Another good point. To the best of my knowledge, there's not a thing >>>going on in this regard. A potentially very obvious reason why Fedora is >>>ignored in much of the world. >>> >>> >>Just don't let anyone start translating it yet! >> >>I don't see how we can translate the Wiki, considering how often it >>changes. >> >> > >Seems like another good argument for two sets of data: static data, that >is translated into every language we can think of; and dynamic data, which >remains English-only. > >--g > We should just mark static and dynamic pages as such and let the contributors decide whether they would want to invest the time in translating the dynamic pages too. If anyone else is interested in doing this, kindly use this page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HelpWanted to add in the different ways to participate and influence the future direction of Fedora regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 18:43:48 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: <42FCECC5.4010906@redhat.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <42FCECC5.4010906@redhat.com> Message-ID: Hey Seth, Does moinmoin support translation well, do you know? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > > > > >>>Another good point. To the best of my knowledge, there's not a thing > >>>going on in this regard. A potentially very obvious reason why Fedora is > >>>ignored in much of the world. > >>> > >>> > >>Just don't let anyone start translating it yet! > >> > >>I don't see how we can translate the Wiki, considering how often it > >>changes. > >> > >> > > > >Seems like another good argument for two sets of data: static data, that > >is translated into every language we can think of; and dynamic data, which > >remains English-only. > > > >--g > > > We should just mark static and dynamic pages as such and let the > contributors decide whether they would want to invest the time in > translating the dynamic pages too. If anyone else is interested in doing > this, kindly use this page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HelpWanted to > add in the different ways to participate and influence the future > direction of Fedora > > regards > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From sopwith at redhat.com Fri Aug 12 18:48:12 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:48:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > I don't see how we can translate the Wiki, considering how often it > > changes. > > Seems like another good argument for two sets of data: static data, that > is translated into every language we can think of; and dynamic data, which > remains English-only. Dynamically generated pages can be translated at least partially - e.g. a CGI that generates tables is actually not that hard to deal with. The biggest problem is not really dynamically generated pages, but plain old text that changes rapidly. We just need a system for handling that (so that, for example, translators don't translate documents in progress), and a group of translators with enough capacity to handle the needs of the project. Best, -- Elliot Pioneers get the Arrows. Settlers get the Land. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Aug 12 19:53:11 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:53:11 -0400 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <42FCECC5.4010906@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1123876391.20873.1.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 14:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Hey Seth, > > Does moinmoin support translation well, do you know? I've been looking into just that since I noticed the conversation this morning. I'll let you know what I find out. -sv From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Aug 12 20:02:37 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:02:37 -0400 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: <1123876391.20873.1.camel@cutter> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <42FCECC5.4010906@redhat.com> <1123876391.20873.1.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1123876957.20873.3.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 15:53 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 14:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Hey Seth, > > > > Does moinmoin support translation well, do you know? > > I've been looking into just that since I noticed the conversation this > morning. > > I'll let you know what I find out. > Here is what I found out. http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultiLang it's not trivial but it's not impossible, either. -sv From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Aug 12 20:51:44 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:51:44 -0400 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1123879904.20873.12.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 11:28 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 10:54 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > > > > > Where may I find out about localised versions of the main Fedora web > > > page? (That is, translations into e.g. German, French, Italian, > > > Polish, etc.) Is a project working on that? > > > > Another good point. To the best of my knowledge, there's not a thing > > going on in this regard. A potentially very obvious reason why Fedora is > > ignored in much of the world. > > Just don't let anyone start translating it yet! > > I don't see how we can translate the Wiki, considering how often it > changes. > read that doc I pointed to - it's actually kinda interesting. You end up running a wiki farm to do it but it's not as ridiculous as it sounds at first. -sv From kwade at redhat.com Sat Aug 13 06:26:28 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:26:28 -0700 Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <1123853588.4311.1.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42FAE13F.2080604@redhat.com> <1123745111.17624.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123853588.4311.1.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1123914388.5294.28.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 23:33 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 15:25 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > Does that mean we are going to be proceeding with this? > > re too -- gives > > I think possibly maybe we should ask the developers whether they are > > interested in contributing to it. I don't feel that we should proceed > > if the most important part of it isn't interested. > > Ask them when there's actually a plan abound I brought up the mentor idea in the Fedora BOF this week, and it had a good reception. Experienced contributors and wanting-to-be contributors either agreed or didn't disagree. FWIW, that was my straw poll. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Aug 13 07:23:14 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:23:14 -0700 Subject: focus and choice Message-ID: <1123917794.5294.41.camel@erato.phig.org> Is it just me, or has anyone noticed that the focus of Fedora has been influenced by the community? The "cutting-edge, testing ground for Linux enthusiasts" approach is being overrun with new users, that is, the Linux curious. This mirrors my experienced at LWCE this week. Many of the Linux curious we talked to were just trying to get a good desktop. They are turned to Fedora by their Linux experienced friends. The influx into our community of these new-to-Linux and Linux curious has been making changes since very early on. The success and value of the various fedora*.tld websites is an example of this. We did all this while not focusing on those users. We've been focusing on the developers, which is arguably pretty important. :) Our discussions here show that we have recognized these changes as a given fact. How far has that recognition gone? Is it at the tipping point for developers? Is there room to grow our formal scope? We can't deny and embrace at the same time. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From lxmaier at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 07:44:33 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:44:33 +0200 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123868881.3564.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9590b2a805081209397b47732c@mail.gmail.com> <1123867546.3564.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42FCDD0F.1030706@redhat.com> <1123868881.3564.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7f617d2705081300446c7f8ad6@mail.gmail.com> Looking at this discussion drifting into several different directions at once--all of which are important, mark ye--I would like to suggest a bit of structre introduced into the whole thing :) First, everyone seems to agree at this point in time that the landing pages do not appeal to anyone but the converts and we need to change that. Second, the idea to have f.r.com become a landing page with a *few* pretty marketing links seems to work for most on the list too. (It still can link to docs etc from the side nav, but the marketing links would be on the real estate above first page break--with nice graphics to go with them) This does not spell death for f.r.c--simply the addition of a few flashy graphical links to the top of the page, and so it can be done quickly and with little pain. Third, these links should answer the following questions: What is Fedora? Why do I want to use it? How do I get it? I would suggest a couple more links along the lines of: Fedora news and events Fedora issue of the day (whatever issue we would be pushing at the moment, we can link it from there--to be used by PR folks) So if we agree on this, the next steps should be: 1. Form a group of folks with one lead accountable for the result to sit down and draft answers for the What-Why-How. 2. Discuss the results on this list and in one of the meetings. 3. Finalize the whole thing and build wiki pages for each point. 4. Build graphics and place links on f.r.c and on the landing page of fp.org I volunteer to start drafting the anwers over the next week--who is with me? a -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From stuart at elsn.org Sat Aug 13 10:16:14 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 11:16:14 +0100 Subject: focus and choice In-Reply-To: <1123917794.5294.41.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1123917794.5294.41.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1123928174.2949.15.camel@Vigor10> On Sat, 2005-08-13 at 00:23 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Is it just me, or has anyone noticed that the focus of Fedora has been > influenced by the community? > > The "cutting-edge, testing ground for Linux enthusiasts" approach is > being overrun with new users, that is, the Linux curious. > Yes - it's definitely noticeable on Fedora Forums, where the questions and responses are very much more basic and desktop orientated than older communities like Linux Questions or Ars Technica (although these are probably skewed samples :) ). The fact that Fedora is still the distro of choice for book authors may also be another reason that we are the first distro many people use. Alongside that though, there may be a silent majority thing going on well. On the whole RHL and Fedora releases just work as advertised, so there may be many experienced users that just keep using new versions as they have for years, without feeling the need to evangelize or complain. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Sat Aug 13 11:27:12 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:27:12 +0100 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <7f617d2705081300446c7f8ad6@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9590b2a805081209397b47732c@mail.gmail.com> <1123867546.3564.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42FCDD0F.1030706@redhat.com> <1123868881.3564.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f617d2705081300446c7f8ad6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1123932432.2949.22.camel@Vigor10> On Sat, 2005-08-13 at 09:44 +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > So if we agree on this, the next steps should be: > > 1. Form a group of folks with one lead accountable for the result to > sit down and draft answers for the What-Why-How. > > 2. Discuss the results on this list and in one of the meetings. > > 3. Finalize the whole thing and build wiki pages for each point. > > 4. Build graphics and place links on f.r.c and on the landing page of fp.org > > I volunteer to start drafting the anwers over the next week--who is with me? Me - I think that Paul's comments were spot on, and it's well worth doing. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 13:51:06 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:51:06 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <7f617d2705081300446c7f8ad6@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9590b2a805081209397b47732c@mail.gmail.com> <1123867546.3564.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42FCDD0F.1030706@redhat.com> <1123868881.3564.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f617d2705081300446c7f8ad6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1123941066.3364.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-08-13 at 09:44 +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > Looking at this discussion drifting into several different directions > at once--all of which are important, mark ye--I would like to suggest > a bit of structre introduced into the whole thing :) > > First, everyone seems to agree at this point in time that the landing > pages do not appeal to anyone but the converts and we need to change > that. > > Second, the idea to have f.r.com become a landing page with a *few* > pretty marketing links seems to work for most on the list too. (It > still can link to docs etc from the side nav, but the marketing links > would be on the real estate above first page break--with nice graphics > to go with them) This does not spell death for f.r.c--simply the > addition of a few flashy graphical links to the top of the page, and > so it can be done quickly and with little pain. > > Third, these links should answer the following questions: > What is Fedora? > Why do I want to use it? > How do I get it? > > I would suggest a couple more links along the lines of: > Fedora news and events > Fedora issue of the day (whatever issue we would be pushing at the > moment, we can link it from there--to be used by PR folks) > > So if we agree on this, the next steps should be: > > 1. Form a group of folks with one lead accountable for the result to > sit down and draft answers for the What-Why-How. > > 2. Discuss the results on this list and in one of the meetings. > > 3. Finalize the whole thing and build wiki pages for each point. > > 4. Build graphics and place links on f.r.c and on the landing page of fp.org > > I volunteer to start drafting the anwers over the next week--who is with me? I'll help, especially with writing or editing duties wherever needed! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Aug 13 14:00:07 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:30:07 +0530 Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <1123914388.5294.28.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42FAE13F.2080604@redhat.com> <1123745111.17624.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123853588.4311.1.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1123914388.5294.28.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <42FDFCE7.8010509@redhat.com> Karsten Wade wrote: >On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 23:33 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > >>On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 15:25 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >> >> >>>Does that mean we are going to be proceeding with this? >>>re too -- gives >>> >>> > > > >>>I think possibly maybe we should ask the developers whether they are >>>interested in contributing to it. I don't feel that we should proceed >>>if the most important part of it isn't interested. >>> >>> >>Ask them when there's actually a plan abound >> >> > >I brought up the mentor idea in the Fedora BOF this week, and it had a >good reception. Experienced contributors and wanting-to-be contributors >either agreed or didn't disagree. > >FWIW, that was my straw poll. > >- Karsten > > It would be good to start a fedora-mentors list and see if it works. We dont risk much by that effort regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Sat Aug 13 14:06:03 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <42FDFCE7.8010509@redhat.com> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42FAE13F.2080604@redhat.com> <1123745111.17624.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123853588.4311.1.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1123914388.5294.28.camel@erato.phig.org> <42FDFCE7.8010509@redhat.com> Message-ID: > It would be good to start a fedora-mentors list and see if it works. We > dont risk much by that effort. A mailing list is sort of already an environment of mentorship by committee, isn't it? Are we talking about more of a one-on-one relationship? Perhaps we're better off with a simple mechanism for matching mentors and mentees. Maybe we do something like... 1. Build a simple wiki page with a couple of paragraphs talking about why a mentor program is valuable and useful. 2. A sign-up page for prospective mentors, where they describe what they're good at. 3. A sign-up page for prospective mentees, where they describe what skills they're looking to improve. 4. An announcement to f-*-list. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From mschwendt at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 14:13:41 2005 From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:13:41 +0200 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <440f31f605081307137a3c3a61@mail.gmail.com> On 12/08/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 10:54 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > > > > > Where may I find out about localised versions of the main Fedora web > > > page? (That is, translations into e.g. German, French, Italian, > > > Polish, etc.) Is a project working on that? > > > > Another good point. To the best of my knowledge, there's not a thing > > going on in this regard. A potentially very obvious reason why Fedora is > > ignored in much of the world. > > Just don't let anyone start translating it yet! > > I don't see how we can translate the Wiki, considering how often it > changes. The Wiki is not the "main Fedora web page". I believe that if you want to foster the creation and growth of local communities and if you want to reduce language barriers, fedora.redhat.com must offer translations for a few major languages. Localised content, which also points users (and in particular newbies who look for quickstart information) to the non-English mailing-lists [1] in a really prominent place. And what was possible with fedoraforum.org could be repeated with fedoraforum.de, for instance. Btw, a German Fedora Wiki, albeit an unofficial one, exists already, [2]. -- [1] e.g. http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-de-list [2] http://www.fedorawiki.de From gdk at redhat.com Sat Aug 13 14:18:37 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:18:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: <440f31f605081307137a3c3a61@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <440f31f605081307137a3c3a61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Michael Schwendt wrote: > I believe that if you want to foster the creation and growth of local > communities and if you want to reduce language barriers, > fedora.redhat.com must offer translations for a few major languages. > Localised content, which also points users (and in particular newbies > who look for quickstart information) to the non-English mailing-lists > [1] in a really prominent place. And what was possible with > fedoraforum.org could be repeated with fedoraforum.de, for instance. +1 --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Aug 13 14:46:39 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:16:39 +0530 Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42FAE13F.2080604@redhat.com> <1123745111.17624.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123853588.4311.1.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1123914388.5294.28.camel@erato.phig.org> <42FDFCE7.8010509@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42FE07CF.5090606@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >>It would be good to start a fedora-mentors list and see if it works. We >>dont risk much by that effort. >> >> > >A mailing list is sort of already an environment of mentorship by >committee, isn't it? Are we talking about more of a one-on-one >relationship? Perhaps we're better off with a simple mechanism for >matching mentors and mentees. Maybe we do something like... > >1. Build a simple wiki page with a couple of paragraphs talking about why >a mentor program is valuable and useful. > > Done. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors >2. A sign-up page for prospective mentors, where they describe what >they're good at. > >3. A sign-up page for prospective mentees, where they describe what skills >they're looking to improve. > > We really need to advertise that they is a oppurtunity. I am not sure how the sign up process is supposed to work. Do you mean other wiki pages? regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Aug 13 14:46:55 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:16:55 +0530 Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42FAE13F.2080604@redhat.com> <1123745111.17624.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123853588.4311.1.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1123914388.5294.28.camel@erato.phig.org> <42FDFCE7.8010509@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42FE07DF.9060408@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >>It would be good to start a fedora-mentors list and see if it works. We >>dont risk much by that effort. >> >> > >A mailing list is sort of already an environment of mentorship by >committee, isn't it? Are we talking about more of a one-on-one >relationship? Perhaps we're better off with a simple mechanism for >matching mentors and mentees. Maybe we do something like... > >1. Build a simple wiki page with a couple of paragraphs talking about why >a mentor program is valuable and useful. > > Done. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors >2. A sign-up page for prospective mentors, where they describe what >they're good at. > >3. A sign-up page for prospective mentees, where they describe what skills >they're looking to improve. > > We really need to advertise that there is a oppurtunity first. I am not sure how the sign up process is supposed to work. Do you mean other wiki pages? regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Sat Aug 13 18:06:05 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 11:06:05 -0700 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123941066.3364.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9590b2a805081209397b47732c@mail.gmail.com> <1123867546.3564.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42FCDD0F.1030706@redhat.com> <1123868881.3564.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f617d2705081300446c7f8ad6@mail.gmail.com> <1123941066.3364.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1123956366.5294.45.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2005-08-13 at 09:51 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sat, 2005-08-13 at 09:44 +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > > > > I volunteer to start drafting the anwers over the next week--who is with me? > > I'll help, especially with writing or editing duties wherever needed! Since the Documentation Project is so well represented with Stuart and Paul, I'll find something else useful to do with my time. However, my offer to implement changes to the site itself once all the content is finished still stands. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From lxmaier at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 20:07:02 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:07:02 +0200 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: <1123956366.5294.45.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <1123863481.3564.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9590b2a805081209397b47732c@mail.gmail.com> <1123867546.3564.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42FCDD0F.1030706@redhat.com> <1123868881.3564.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f617d2705081300446c7f8ad6@mail.gmail.com> <1123941066.3364.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123956366.5294.45.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <7f617d27050813130710a3955c@mail.gmail.com> On 8/13/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > Since the Documentation Project is so well represented with Stuart and > Paul, I'll find something else useful to do with my time. However, my > offer to implement changes to the site itself once all the content is > finished still stands. Not like you would not be welcome to help out :) In any case, we definitely will need your help when we are ready to design the pages, so thanks! -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Aug 14 10:04:32 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 05:04:32 -0500 Subject: Now Seeking Guinea Pigs (Mentors) Message-ID: <42FF1730.1080405@n-man.com> Following recent discussions, the Mentors page on the wiki was created recently. It did little more than list where potential contributors might go. I have moved that information to the HelpWanted page, cleaned it up, and created new content for the Mentors page. As part of doing so, I have started the list of volunteer mentors on that page. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors If you would be willing to mentor new contributors to Fedora, please consider adding yourself to that list. Hopefully, having such an open list will work out. This will be a list that curious contributors can select mentors from. Please be careful and descriptive in your listing. Please keep in mind that if you are bombarded with requests, you are free to remove your name from the list, but we need to try to manage requests to keep that from happening. As the list grows, if you are getting more requests than you can handle, please try to pass requests along to other, less-bombarded mentors rather than unleash your wrath on new contributors. I have posted this message to fedora-devel-list, fedora-extras-list, fedora-marketing-list, and fedora-docs-list. Please don't shoot me, we need all the mentors we can get from every facet of the Project. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lxmaier at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 11:04:25 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:04:25 +0200 Subject: Need more speakers for FUDCon London 2005! Message-ID: <7f617d2705081404046d96461a@mail.gmail.com> Hello Fedora Marketing! The submission deadline is August 26, and we have commitments from the following people: Michael Tiemann (keynote), Alasdair Kergon, Florian LaRoche, Daniel Veillard, Ronan Kirby, Mark Cox We need more people if we are to fill the two tracks. Please make sure you invite more people to submit their talks to fudcon-cfp at fedoraporject.org. Thank you, a -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Sun Aug 14 11:09:03 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:09:03 +0100 Subject: Need more speakers for FUDCon London 2005! In-Reply-To: <7f617d2705081404046d96461a@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d2705081404046d96461a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200508141209.03486.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Sunday 14 Aug 2005 12:04, Alex Maier wrote: > Hello Fedora Marketing! > > The submission deadline is August 26, and we have commitments from the > following people: > > Michael Tiemann (keynote), > Alasdair Kergon, > Florian LaRoche, > Daniel Veillard, > Ronan Kirby, > Mark Cox > > We need more people if we are to fill the two tracks. Please make sure > you invite more people to submit their talks to > fudcon-cfp at fedoraporject.org. > > Thank you, > a Are there pre-defined topics? -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From lxmaier at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 11:40:49 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:40:49 +0200 Subject: Need more speakers for FUDCon London 2005! In-Reply-To: <200508141209.03486.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> References: <7f617d2705081404046d96461a@mail.gmail.com> <200508141209.03486.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <7f617d27050814044073df9a2@mail.gmail.com> No, there are no pre-defined topics. All submissions are welcome, and if we have more submissions than slots, we will select the ones that build two cohesive tracs. a On 8/14/05, Gavin Henry wrote: > On Sunday 14 Aug 2005 12:04, Alex Maier wrote: > > Hello Fedora Marketing! > > > > The submission deadline is August 26, and we have commitments from the > > following people: > > > > Michael Tiemann (keynote), > > Alasdair Kergon, > > Florian LaRoche, > > Daniel Veillard, > > Ronan Kirby, > > Mark Cox > > > > We need more people if we are to fill the two tracks. Please make sure > > you invite more people to submit their talks to > > fudcon-cfp at fedoraporject.org. > > > > Thank you, > > a > > Are there pre-defined topics? > > -- > Kind Regards, > > Gavin Henry. > Managing Director. > > T +44 (0) 1224 279484 > M +44 (0) 7930 323266 > F +44 (0) 1224 742001 > E ghenry at suretecsystems.com > > Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). > > http://www.suretecsystems.com/ > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From lrolatti at racine.ra.it Sun Aug 14 16:59:40 2005 From: lrolatti at racine.ra.it (Luigi Rolatti) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:59:40 +0200 Subject: SUBSRIPT Message-ID: <001701c5a0f1$92e23d30$3c01a8c0@CECILIA> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 15 13:18:02 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:18:02 -0400 Subject: Regular text logo Message-ID: <1124111883.3244.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> This may be an issue for Greg especially given his proximity to the legal folks. Are "official" sites such as the Wiki allowed to use the Fedora text logo (i.e. the stylized "Fedora Project" text seen in the upper left of fedora.redhat.com)? I created a reproduction of this with the help of fontforge, and sent it to Seth to use in his cool redesign of the Wiki theme, but now I realize that this might be an issue. I had no intention of back-dooring anyone, but was just trying to be helpful. If it's a problem, I'll just turn the evapo-ray on it here, with apologies for the bother. Those of us who don't program, tinker instead. :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Aug 15 13:26:31 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:26:31 -0400 Subject: Regular text logo In-Reply-To: <1124111883.3244.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124111883.3244.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124112391.17178.1.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:18 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > This may be an issue for Greg especially given his proximity to the > legal folks. Are "official" sites such as the Wiki allowed to use the > Fedora text logo (i.e. the stylized "Fedora Project" text seen in the > upper left of fedora.redhat.com)? > > I created a reproduction of this with the help of fontforge, and sent it > to Seth to use in his cool redesign of the Wiki theme, but now I realize > that this might be an issue. I had no intention of back-dooring anyone, > but was just trying to be helpful. If it's a problem, I'll just turn > the evapo-ray on it here, with apologies for the bother. Those of us > who don't program, tinker instead. :-) > BIG LETTERS: I didn't redesign anything. Hrishikesh Ballal and Diana Fong have done everything for the redesign. I've been told Chris Aillon was involved in the css creation as well but I've done bupkiss other than move around the files Diana and Hrishi have asked me to. END BIG LETTERS. thanks, -sv From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 15 13:36:06 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:36:06 -0400 Subject: Regular text logo In-Reply-To: <1124112391.17178.1.camel@cutter> References: <1124111883.3244.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124112391.17178.1.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1124112966.3244.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:26 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:18 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > This may be an issue for Greg especially given his proximity to the > > legal folks. Are "official" sites such as the Wiki allowed to use the > > Fedora text logo (i.e. the stylized "Fedora Project" text seen in the > > upper left of fedora.redhat.com)? > > > > I created a reproduction of this with the help of fontforge, and sent it > > to Seth to use in his cool redesign of the Wiki theme, but now I realize > > that this might be an issue. I had no intention of back-dooring anyone, > > but was just trying to be helpful. If it's a problem, I'll just turn > > the evapo-ray on it here, with apologies for the bother. Those of us > > who don't program, tinker instead. :-) > > > > BIG LETTERS: > I didn't redesign anything. Hrishikesh Ballal and Diana Fong have done > everything for the redesign. I've been told Chris Aillon was involved in > the css creation as well but I've done bupkiss other than move around > the files Diana and Hrishi have asked me to. > END BIG LETTERS. I seem to make a habit out of giving you too much credit, Seth. Thank you to Diana, Hrishi and Chris. I think I'll take up stalking one of them instead... ;-D Sorry for the mistake. Depending on the answer to the question posed, then, they can address this change. I would imagine Diana would have access to the original materials and could provide an "even more official" official text logo, but if not, I stand ready to help. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 15 13:42:15 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:12:15 +0530 Subject: Fedora Branding Message-ID: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> Hi Some Fedora stuff http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=27697 http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=27700 http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=27660 Anyone else working on similar things? The docs got a new CSS look from Paul Frields which adds to a consistent look and feel http://docs.frields.org/mirror-tutorial-en/ regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Mon Aug 15 13:40:36 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Regular text logo In-Reply-To: <1124111883.3244.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124111883.3244.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: I'm comfortable using a reproduced Fedora Project logo where it makes sense for the time being, and this is a perfect case where it makes sense. Thanks for asking, though. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Paul W. Frields wrote: > This may be an issue for Greg especially given his proximity to the > legal folks. Are "official" sites such as the Wiki allowed to use the > Fedora text logo (i.e. the stylized "Fedora Project" text seen in the > upper left of fedora.redhat.com)? > > I created a reproduction of this with the help of fontforge, and sent it > to Seth to use in his cool redesign of the Wiki theme, but now I realize > that this might be an issue. I had no intention of back-dooring anyone, > but was just trying to be helpful. If it's a problem, I'll just turn > the evapo-ray on it here, with apologies for the bother. Those of us > who don't program, tinker instead. :-) > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > From gdk at redhat.com Mon Aug 15 13:43:09 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Regular text logo In-Reply-To: <1124112391.17178.1.camel@cutter> References: <1124111883.3244.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124112391.17178.1.camel@cutter> Message-ID: You're too modest, Seth. I always knew you were a designer at heart. Oh, and I'm trying to get a bit more light into my parlor. I'm thinking of apricot window treatments, with maybe a terra cotta wash on the walls. What do you recommend? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, seth vidal wrote: > On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:18 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > This may be an issue for Greg especially given his proximity to the > > legal folks. Are "official" sites such as the Wiki allowed to use the > > Fedora text logo (i.e. the stylized "Fedora Project" text seen in the > > upper left of fedora.redhat.com)? > > > > I created a reproduction of this with the help of fontforge, and sent it > > to Seth to use in his cool redesign of the Wiki theme, but now I realize > > that this might be an issue. I had no intention of back-dooring anyone, > > but was just trying to be helpful. If it's a problem, I'll just turn > > the evapo-ray on it here, with apologies for the bother. Those of us > > who don't program, tinker instead. :-) > > > > BIG LETTERS: > I didn't redesign anything. Hrishikesh Ballal and Diana Fong have done > everything for the redesign. I've been told Chris Aillon was involved in > the css creation as well but I've done bupkiss other than move around > the files Diana and Hrishi have asked me to. > END BIG LETTERS. > > thanks, > -sv > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Aug 15 13:49:33 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:49:33 -0400 Subject: Regular text logo In-Reply-To: References: <1124111883.3244.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124112391.17178.1.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1124113773.17178.10.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > You're too modest, Seth. I always knew you were a designer at heart. > > Oh, and I'm trying to get a bit more light into my parlor. I'm thinking > of apricot window treatments, with maybe a terra cotta wash on the walls. > What do you recommend? I recommend a nice sponge finish on the walls and chintz. I see chintz EVERYWHERE. It's all the rage. -sv From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 15 13:47:38 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:17:38 +0530 Subject: Regular text logo In-Reply-To: References: <1124111883.3244.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124112391.17178.1.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <43009CFA.1030908@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >You're too modest, Seth. I always knew you were a designer at heart. > oh now Mr.Vidal is a designer. Whats next? regards Rahul Ps: Always wear a helmet to avoid brain damage From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Aug 15 14:32:10 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:32:10 +0300 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Some Fedora stuff > > http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=27697 > http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=27700 > http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=27660 > > Anyone else working on similar things? To catalyze works on similar things a "Fedora Art" project would be useful (I had in my mind a proposal for something like this for quite a while). It can be modeled after http://art.gnome.org and IMO the best URL for it is http://art.fedoraproject.org note to self: glad to see used more and more as "alternate logos" one of my hats (http://clipart.nicubunu.ro/svg/special/blue_fedora.svg) -- nicu From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 15 17:32:49 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:32:49 -0700 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1124127169.18963.35.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 17:32 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > note to self: glad to see used more and more as "alternate logos" one of > my hats (http://clipart.nicubunu.ro/svg/special/blue_fedora.svg) More to the point, that is a perfect example that supports your Fedora Art project idea. Having that art piece to build upon has enabled a lot of other art projects to get started, just like source code! Source art. Art source. Something saucy like that. +1 to that idea, then. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 15 17:53:44 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:23:44 +0530 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4300D6A8.3000006@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Some Fedora stuff > > http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=27697 > http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=27700 > http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=27660 > > Anyone else working on similar things? > > The docs got a new CSS look from Paul Frields which adds to a > consistent look and feel > > http://docs.frields.org/mirror-tutorial-en/ > > regards > Rahul We even get bug reports such as these https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=147093 Would appreciate if someone can throw in a patch there regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 15 18:24:17 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:24:17 -0700 Subject: protect your docs like you do your source code [ an editorial ] Message-ID: <1124130257.18963.72.camel@erato.phig.org> Would you put the editing of the kernel source into a Wiki? Sounds extreme, but let me scare you even further. In program source code, you *can* use different code to get the same results. There are always lots of arguments for and against certain solutions, but it is possible to use different ones. In written language, you can move a single comma and have a sentence of an entirely different meaning. There are entire books filled with examples[1]. You may have a favorite one you want to share. We can frame this argument as, "The meaning is in the syntax." Dropping a single character can have unexpected and REALLY BAD consequences: rm *~ Just don't drop the ~. Because users rely upon our documentation, from manual pages to PDF guides, we have to exert the same level of stewardship as we do for the project source code. This does occur for manual pages, and it is the scope of the Documentation Project to consider it at all levels. This little editorial is just to set the stage for further discussions of where documentation lives and how it is produced. Personally, I'm open to solutions, and so is the Documentation Project. However, the stylist in me often hates Wikis. Elevating a raw Wiki is like sucking in all of CPAN and calling it the Fedora Perl Project. For the moment, we have a process that we can be _responsible_ for. Wielding the power of language, right? We would need a new process for Wiki documentation to be even feasible. By it's nature, such a process would be anti-Wiki. For example, a process can be created using a Wiki, with authored pages going through a workflow or some kind of upstreaming through editors. Okay, really, that's a CMS. If we can tack one onto the Wiki, cool. I'd dig a way to graduate Wiki pages to canonical in the CMS. Keep a good Wiki page, we'll make it ThePage. But it's not Wiki anymore, because an editor has to check it first before it goes live. Schroedinger's Wiki. At least, that is what I gather from Wiki proponents. Reduction of control = not MyWiki! This is just for the record. :) - Karsten, who couldn't find room for this quote: "A Wiki is like casual sex, you get to have your fun and leave behind only your ScreenName." [1] Eats, Shoots & Leaves http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1592400876/103-6883807-2623068?v=glance Punctuation quiz: http://eatsshootsandleaves.com/ESLquiz.html -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 15 19:05:51 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:05:51 -0700 Subject: protect your docs like you do your source code [ an editorial ] In-Reply-To: <1124130257.18963.72.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124130257.18963.72.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124132752.18963.92.camel@erato.phig.org> Oh, here is an example of Wiki being well (ab)used. Kudos to the work involved in making this useful: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Main_Page On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 11:24 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Would you put the editing of the kernel source into a Wiki? > > Sounds extreme, but let me scare you even further. > > In program source code, you *can* use different code to get the same > results. There are always lots of arguments for and against certain > solutions, but it is possible to use different ones. > > In written language, you can move a single comma and have a sentence of > an entirely different meaning. There are entire books filled with > examples[1]. You may have a favorite one you want to share. We can > frame this argument as, "The meaning is in the syntax." > > Dropping a single character can have unexpected and REALLY BAD > consequences: > > rm *~ > > Just don't drop the ~. > > Because users rely upon our documentation, from manual pages to PDF > guides, we have to exert the same level of stewardship as we do for the > project source code. This does occur for manual pages, and it is the > scope of the Documentation Project to consider it at all levels. > > This little editorial is just to set the stage for further discussions > of where documentation lives and how it is produced. Personally, I'm > open to solutions, and so is the Documentation Project. > > However, the stylist in me often hates Wikis. Elevating a raw Wiki is > like sucking in all of CPAN and calling it the Fedora Perl Project. > > For the moment, we have a process that we can be _responsible_ for. > Wielding the power of language, right? > > We would need a new process for Wiki documentation to be even feasible. > By it's nature, such a process would be anti-Wiki. > > For example, a process can be created using a Wiki, with authored pages > going through a workflow or some kind of upstreaming through editors. > Okay, really, that's a CMS. If we can tack one onto the Wiki, cool. > I'd dig a way to graduate Wiki pages to canonical in the CMS. Keep a > good Wiki page, we'll make it ThePage. But it's not Wiki anymore, > because an editor has to check it first before it goes live. > Schroedinger's Wiki. > > At least, that is what I gather from Wiki proponents. Reduction of > control = not MyWiki! > > This is just for the record. :) > > - Karsten, who couldn't find room for this quote: > > "A Wiki is like casual sex, you get to have your fun and leave behind > only your ScreenName." > > [1] Eats, Shoots & Leaves > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1592400876/103-6883807-2623068?v=glance > > Punctuation quiz: > http://eatsshootsandleaves.com/ESLquiz.html > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Aug 15 21:16:39 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:16:39 -0400 Subject: Someone's missing the point...it's us. In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081105348d2cad2@mail.gmail.com> <42FB524B.2000605@redhat.com> <42FB57CE.4070504@redhat.com> <1123854101.3673.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123858576.17749.3.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1124140599.19725.2.camel@cutter> > "Odd," as in, "you don't think it matters"? Because it matters deeply to > some of our actual customers, and that's important to us. But maybe > that's the messaging we give in RH-land, not in Fedora-land. no, I mean 'odd' as in "I didn't think many other people thought of it that way". odd == weird. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Mon Aug 15 21:51:49 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux User Groups Message-ID: So I've got a question. What should our relationship with LUGs be? There are hundreds of LUGs worldwide. How should we be reaching out to them? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Mon Aug 15 22:11:43 2005 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:11:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > So I've got a question. > > What should our relationship with LUGs be? > > There are hundreds of LUGs worldwide. How should we be reaching out to > them? Have a web page that lists LUGs that /support/ Fedora, whatever it means. Have a procedure for getting LUGs hooked up to that page. Have a mailing list for contact persons of the LUGs. Set up a way to distribute Fedora CD/DVD, posters, and stickers for a very low price among them. > --g --behdad http://behdad.org/ From luya at jpopmail.com Mon Aug 15 23:53:32 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (luya at jpopmail.com) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:53:32 -0800 Subject: Fedora Logo and background Message-ID: <20050815235332.5503B23D09@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Aug 16 00:00:35 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:00:35 -0700 Subject: Fedora Logo and background In-Reply-To: <20050815235332.5503B23D09@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050815235332.5503B23D09@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <1124150435.28537.39.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 15:53 -0800, luya at jpopmail.com wrote: > The logo is simple. It combine two shaped letters F(Fedora) and C(Core). > It looks simple but it is deep. It you have a good eye, you will see a > hat to retain its Red Hat Linux heritage or a bird with a long right wing. Looks pretty nice, although I wonder if it is too close to a hat for Legal's comfort level. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From luya at jpopmail.com Tue Aug 16 00:25:24 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (luya at jpopmail.com) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:25:24 -0800 Subject: Fedora Logo and background Message-ID: <20050816002524.5AF24CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Aug 16 00:35:05 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:35:05 -0700 Subject: Fedora Logo and background In-Reply-To: <20050816002524.5AF24CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050816002524.5AF24CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <1124152505.28537.52.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 16:25 -0800, luya at jpopmail.com wrote: > I added a new drawing with some slight variation on the "C" > called fedora-logo-test03f. > Whether that logo brought legal or not would be the Red Hat > committee decision. Hopefully that looks more like a > bird than a hat. Looking good. I like the concept. I think the "Fedora" and "Core" parts need some work, but I think from a conceptual standpoint I really like this idea. I like it enough to hand off to a professional graphics type to have their way w/ the concept. Then again, this is just my opinion (: -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 00:45:21 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:45:21 -0400 Subject: Fedora Logo and background In-Reply-To: <1124150435.28537.39.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <20050815235332.5503B23D09@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> <1124150435.28537.39.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910508151745724f483a@mail.gmail.com> On 8/15/05, Jesse Keating wrote: > Looks pretty nice, although I wonder if it is too close to a hat for > Legal's comfort level. I think if you dropped the F and C from text and used the stylized fc graphic as the first letters of the text it would be less obviously a hat. Something along this line would work pretty well as a stitched or flat silk screening or even as a simple sticker. -jef From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 01:12:27 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:12:27 -0400 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7f1eacdd050815181250ddd8a2@mail.gmail.com> > > There are hundreds of LUGs worldwide. How should we be reaching out to > > them? > Have a web page that lists LUGs that /support/ Fedora... +1 > Have a procedure for getting LUGs hooked up +1 > Have a mailing list for contact persons of the LUGs. +1 > Set up a way to distribute Fedora CD/DVD...for a very low price among them. +0.8 Excellent that we should facilitate LUG involvement, but LUG's typically don't have a budget. If they really support Fedora, they should be getting real materials at no cost. What do I mean by "really support Fedora?" 1) Have one yearly Fedora presentation, e.g. a "yearly update." We help recruit for this. 2) Fedora listed as a supported distro on their website. Community supported, right? 3) They give away or sell Fedora Gear (CD's, DVD's, flip-flops, whatever) at their events, e.g. installfests, etc. We provide the Fedora Gear. How do we "certify" them? 1) Make the LUG contact responsible for their support of Fedora. a) name on website b) mailing list The real key to making LUG/user-org involvement work is to thwart apathy at every turn. Be accessible and encourage leaders. MPF From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 02:12:07 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:12:07 -0700 Subject: Fedora Logo and background In-Reply-To: <1124152505.28537.52.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <20050816002524.5AF24CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> <1124152505.28537.52.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <1124158328.18963.107.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 17:35 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 16:25 -0800, luya at jpopmail.com wrote: > > I added a new drawing with some slight variation on the "C" > > called fedora-logo-test03f. > > Whether that logo brought legal or not would be the Red Hat > > committee decision. Hopefully that looks more like a > > bird than a hat. > > Looking good. I like the concept. I think the "Fedora" and "Core" > parts need some work, but I think from a conceptual standpoint I really > like this idea. I like it enough to hand off to a professional graphics > type to have their way w/ the concept. > > Then again, this is just my opinion (: I like them, very surf logo. Very. Catch the Fedora Wave, dude! This one is my favorite for hiding the hat: http://www.thefinalzone.com/Fedora/fedora_logo_test03g.png This is a good surf logo: http://www.thefinalzone.com/Fedora/fedora_logo_test03c1.png Not sure what to do about all the not-Core projects, but I suppose a similar swoop/wave effect can be hand. BTW, introducing Luya (and probably my best pic from LWCE SF): http://phig.users.sonic.net/iquaid/images/LWCE-SF-2005-Luya_and_boyz_GGBridge-500x667.jpg - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From luya at jpopmail.com Tue Aug 16 05:00:22 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (luya at jpopmail.com) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:00:22 -0800 Subject: Fedora Logo and background Message-ID: <20050816050022.DCF367B49D@ws5-10.us4.outblaze.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From lrolatti at racine.ra.it Tue Aug 16 07:42:00 2005 From: lrolatti at racine.ra.it (Luigi Rolatti) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:42:00 +0200 Subject: subscript Message-ID: <001201c5a235$fe945eb0$3c01a8c0@CECILIA> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jfautley at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 08:17:53 2005 From: jfautley at redhat.com (Jon Fautley) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:17:53 +0100 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4301A131.1020005@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > So I've got a question. > > What should our relationship with LUGs be? I personally think that, in the UK certainly, the idea of a few Fedora rep's is a good idea. People that can travel to 2/3 different LUGs in their area and give talks, hand out CD's, etc. I think the idea of selling stuff to the Linux User Groups is a mixed bag - I think CD's and maybe the odd freebie or two (keyrings, stickers, etc) should be 'free' (i.e. if one of the rep's talks at a LUG, they get a set number of freebies to hand out). T-Shirts and stuff should obviously be purchased by the individuals that want them. LUG's in the UK don't really have much money, if any at all. > There are hundreds of LUGs worldwide. How should we be reaching out to > them? Appearance at community events, free CD's, people giving talks, the usual really... I think a 'hands off' approach of 'we're here if you want us' is better than a full on LUG assault. Thoughts? Jon -- Jon Fautley direct: +44 1483 739615 Presales Technical Consultant office: +44 1483 300169 Red Hat UK mobile: +44 7841 558683 10 Alan Turing Road, Surrey Research Park, Guildford GU2 7YF From lxmaier at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 09:39:38 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:39:38 +0200 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4301A131.1020005@redhat.com> References: <4301A131.1020005@redhat.com> Message-ID: <7f617d27050816023958e48551@mail.gmail.com> On 8/16/05, Jon Fautley wrote: > > There are hundreds of LUGs worldwide. How should we be reaching out to > > them? > > Appearance at community events, free CD's, people giving talks, the > usual really... I think a 'hands off' approach of 'we're here if you > want us' is better than a full on LUG assault. > > Thoughts? What say we have either - a wiki with names of speakers who LUGs can contact and invite to their meetings - a page on which we have the procedure for inviting the speakers, and WE have to pick the speaker for them - both a -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From gerold at lugd.org Tue Aug 16 09:49:03 2005 From: gerold at lugd.org (Gerold Kassube) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:49:03 +0200 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <7f617d27050816023958e48551@mail.gmail.com> References: <4301A131.1020005@redhat.com> <7f617d27050816023958e48551@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124185743.3040.2.camel@NB-Fedora.homenet.local> as a LUG member .... Alex, where to find your mentioned, outpointed information? Please excuse but if you don't know, I'm new and a Newbie on this list :-) Regards and thanks Gerold Am Dienstag, den 16.08.2005, 11:39 +0200 schrieb Alex Maier: > On 8/16/05, Jon Fautley wrote: > > > There are hundreds of LUGs worldwide. How should we be reaching out to > > > them? > > > > Appearance at community events, free CD's, people giving talks, the > > usual really... I think a 'hands off' approach of 'we're here if you > > want us' is better than a full on LUG assault. > > > > Thoughts? > > What say we have either > > - a wiki with names of speakers who LUGs can contact and invite to > their meetings > - a page on which we have the procedure for inviting the speakers, and > WE have to pick the speaker for them > - both > > a -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sankar at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 14:07:06 2005 From: sankar at redhat.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhay) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:37:06 +0530 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > So I've got a question. > > What should our relationship with LUGs be? > > There are hundreds of LUGs worldwide. How should we be reaching out to > them? In an ideal world, I would have wished for the following: [1] A portal/wiki/forum for LUGs to be listed (with at least 2 contacts per LUG) [2] Small info kit which could be distributed at LUG meets which happen at Universities/Schools/Community Centers and the like [3] *101 things you did not know about Fedora* - a small piece about the project and more importantly *Fedora Core - The Distribution* [4] Figure out a way to *sell* Fedora goodies [5] Have Fedora spokesperson at LUGs. This person interacts on a regular basis with the development of the project and is in a position to talk about the cool things that make FC nice [6] Have dedicated BugSquad members from the LUGs Regards Sankarshan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDAfMK+g4kmZ76nyERAgONAKCeEdRqcHz0hfYsPpBod6hAU7Sx7QCgnlgL 3VXc1C5rGuuYL4mox5/e8SE= =Oxn6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 14:08:53 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:38:53 +0530 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> HI In an ideal world, I would have wished for the following: [1] A portal/wiki/forum for LUGs to be listed (with at least 2 contacts per LUG) [2] Small info kit which could be distributed at LUG meets which happen at Universities/Schools/Community Centers and the like [3] *101 things you did not know about Fedora* - a small piece about the project and more importantly *Fedora Core - The Distribution* [4] Figure out a way to *sell* Fedora goodies [5] Have Fedora spokesperson at LUGs. This person interacts on a regular basis with the development of the project and is in a position to talk about the cool things that make FC nice [6] Have dedicated BugSquad members from the LUGs -------- Lets start a wiki for LUG's then. I personally find things like Fedora Extras repository a important enhancement for the platform as well as a show case for community contributions and would like to see a overview of Fedora also look into other things besides core but on the whole I think the idea of a info kit for Fedora well worth exploring. Is anyone from the docs team willing to look at this?. We got a whole lot of people lurking in there regards Rahul Ps: CC'ing docs list for comments From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 14:07:02 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Sankarshan. This is *exactly* what I was looking for -- in actionable list form, even. And I agree with pretty much all of it. The next question: how do we turn a list like this into reality? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Sankarshan Mukhopadhay wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > So I've got a question. > > > > What should our relationship with LUGs be? > > > > There are hundreds of LUGs worldwide. How should we be reaching out to > > them? > > In an ideal world, I would have wished for the following: > > [1] A portal/wiki/forum for LUGs to be listed (with at least 2 contacts > per LUG) > > [2] Small info kit which could be distributed at LUG meets which happen > at Universities/Schools/Community Centers and the like > > [3] *101 things you did not know about Fedora* - a small piece about the > project and more importantly *Fedora Core - The Distribution* > > [4] Figure out a way to *sell* Fedora goodies > > [5] Have Fedora spokesperson at LUGs. This person interacts on a regular > basis with the development of the project and is in a position to talk > about the cool things that make FC nice > > [6] Have dedicated BugSquad members from the LUGs > > Regards > Sankarshan > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFDAfMK+g4kmZ76nyERAgONAKCeEdRqcHz0hfYsPpBod6hAU7Sx7QCgnlgL > 3VXc1C5rGuuYL4mox5/e8SE= > =Oxn6 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 14:20:15 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:20:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> Message-ID: OK, so let me actually give a little bit of shape to these ideas from my perspective. On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > [1] A portal/wiki/forum for LUGs to be listed (with at least 2 contacts > per LUG) We can start a LUG section asap and make this a prominent page. Who wants it? > [2] Small info kit which could be distributed at LUG meets which happen > at Universities/Schools/Community Centers and the like A physical kit, or a virtual kit? > [3] *101 things you did not know about Fedora* - a small piece about the > project and more importantly *Fedora Core - The Distribution* This seems like a good idea to me. This would also make a great handout. Maybe we should start this "101 things" page on the wiki, work on it for a while, and then when it's baked, we turn it into pretty collateral. I can get help from that end. > [4] Figure out a way to *sell* Fedora goodies The biggest blocker here, honestly, is a treasurer. We could set up a Cafe Press store in 15 minutes; the real issue is, who handles the money? This is one of the upcoming issues to be resolved by the Foundation, but once we're there, I think that this item moves right to the top. > [5] Have Fedora spokesperson at LUGs. This person interacts on a regular > basis with the development of the project and is in a position to talk > about the cool things that make FC nice Is this spokesperson a member of the LUG, or not? > [6] Have dedicated BugSquad members from the LUGs Oh, hell yeah. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 14:33:14 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:03:14 +0530 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >OK, so let me actually give a little bit of shape to these ideas from my >perspective. > >On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > >>[1] A portal/wiki/forum for LUGs to be listed (with at least 2 contacts >>per LUG) >> >> > >We can start a LUG section asap and make this a prominent page. Who wants >it? > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LUG. Please fill in the required information > > > >>[2] Small info kit which could be distributed at LUG meets which happen >>at Universities/Schools/Community Centers and the like >> >> > >A physical kit, or a virtual kit? > > > Virtual definitely >>[5] Have Fedora spokesperson at LUGs. This person interacts on a regular >>basis with the development of the project and is in a position to talk >>about the cool things that make FC nice >> >> > >Is this spokesperson a member of the LUG, or not? > > Member regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 14:47:13 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:17:13 +0530 Subject: Desktop Linux Message-ID: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> Hi Aza dotzler presentation on requirements for Desktop Linux is a relevant article for what is appealing to the target audience http://piercedotzler.com/asa/linux%20%96%20in%20search%20of%20the%20desktop.pdf regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 18:52:57 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:52:57 -0700 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124218377.18963.167.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 20:17 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Aza dotzler presentation on requirements for Desktop Linux is a relevant > article for what is appealing to the target audience > > http://piercedotzler.com/asa/linux%20%96%20in%20search%20of%20the%20desktop.pdf Owch, painful to read presentation. Guess my desktop isn't ready for it. This is the usual chicken-egg problem. He is full of what desktop developers should do. There are a few good points in there, which are overshadowed by problems not addressed. For example, how does he propose getting all of these preferences off a proprietary file system and out of proprietary applications? To live side-by-side, Windows needs to be installed on a FAT file system, which is usually not the case in the NTFS world. I appreciate that Linux desktop developers are trying to do better than just to cater to Windows users. People act like Windows is the be-all of computer experience. People get used to changes because they have to. Linux desktop being widespread will likely come about for the same reason Windows got widespread -- businesses adopted it, users got used to it at work, and they brought it home. When that happens, I will be proud that we didn't produce a Windows clone. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From shiser at cloud9.net Tue Aug 16 18:58:23 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (swhiser) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:58:23 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <1124218377.18963.167.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> <1124218377.18963.167.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4302374F.1020801@cloud9.net> Karsten Wade wrote: >On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 20:17 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Hi >> >>Aza dotzler presentation on requirements for Desktop Linux is a relevant >>article for what is appealing to the target audience >> >>http://piercedotzler.com/asa/linux%20%96%20in%20search%20of%20the%20desktop.pdf >> >> > >Owch, painful to read presentation. Guess my desktop isn't ready for >it. > >This is the usual chicken-egg problem. He is full of what desktop >developers should do. > >There are a few good points in there, which are overshadowed by problems >not addressed. For example, how does he propose getting all of these >preferences off a proprietary file system and out of proprietary >applications? To live side-by-side, Windows needs to be installed on a >FAT file system, which is usually not the case in the NTFS world. > >I appreciate that Linux desktop developers are trying to do better than >just to cater to Windows users. > >People act like Windows is the be-all of computer experience. People >get used to changes because they have to. Linux desktop being >widespread will likely come about for the same reason Windows got >widespread -- businesses adopted it, users got used to it at work, and >they brought it home. > >When that happens, I will be proud that we didn't produce a Windows >clone. > >- Karsten > > The presentation speaks for itself as to why Linux can't get across. -Sam Hiser >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From shiser at cloud9.net Tue Aug 16 19:23:04 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (swhiser) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:23:04 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4302374F.1020801@cloud9.net> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> <1124218377.18963.167.camel@erato.phig.org> <4302374F.1020801@cloud9.net> Message-ID: <43023D18.9000606@cloud9.net> swhiser wrote: > Karsten Wade wrote: > >> On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 20:17 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >> >>> Hi >>> >>> Aza dotzler presentation on requirements for Desktop Linux is a >>> relevant article for what is appealing to the target audience >>> >>> http://piercedotzler.com/asa/linux%20%96%20in%20search%20of%20the%20desktop.pdf >>> >>> >> >> >> Owch, painful to read presentation. Guess my desktop isn't ready for >> it. >> >> This is the usual chicken-egg problem. He is full of what desktop >> developers should do. >> >> There are a few good points in there, which are overshadowed by problems >> not addressed. For example, how does he propose getting all of these >> preferences off a proprietary file system and out of proprietary >> applications? To live side-by-side, Windows needs to be installed on a >> FAT file system, which is usually not the case in the NTFS world. >> >> I appreciate that Linux desktop developers are trying to do better than >> just to cater to Windows users. >> >> People act like Windows is the be-all of computer experience. People >> get used to changes because they have to. Linux desktop being >> widespread will likely come about for the same reason Windows got >> widespread -- businesses adopted it, users got used to it at work, and >> they brought it home. >> >> When that happens, I will be proud that we didn't produce a Windows >> clone. >> >> - Karsten >> >> > > The presentation speaks for itself as to why Linux can't get across. > -Sam Hiser I mean, is that Sanscrit? -Sam > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> -- >> Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >> Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list >> > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 19:30:48 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:30:48 -0700 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4302374F.1020801@cloud9.net> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> <1124218377.18963.167.camel@erato.phig.org> <4302374F.1020801@cloud9.net> Message-ID: <1124220648.18963.180.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 14:58 -0400, swhiser wrote: > The presentation speaks for itself as to why Linux can't get across. I disagree, but that's mainly because a presentation of slides /= a real report. Fortunately, I read his article[1] as well. Or do you mean, because he used special Acrobat PDF extensions and non-free fonts, the presentation looks terrible, and that speaks for itself? That's like blaming proprietary document formats being unreadable on the recipient, instead of the sender and they proprietary software vendor. The problem is, he is discussing Linux in general, as if it were one entity. Anyone is welcome to put the kind of polish on a desktop that he is proposing, without having to make "all of Linux" do that. I find his ideas contradictory. For example, in his article he specifically mentions the reversal of OK and Cancel in GNOME is stupid, then he says, "... application developers need to make some of the hard choices and stop falling back on the "make it a user option" solution that seems to be all too popular in most software these days." Well, are we to trust our usability experts to make these decisions or not? He seems to think yes, and well, no. It depends on how "valuable to change" an area is, versus how "comfortable" the change is. As long as the future of Linux on the desktop is couched in the terms of how like Windows it is for Regular Users, I think we'll do little more than be a Windows UI clone. Since the Windows UI sucks, why clone it? After all, we already have Xandros. FWIW, no amount of catering will get people to be unlazy. I tend to agree that a Windows2Linux migration project would be good and helpful, but I already encounter people who were surprised at how easy a modern Linux desktop is to learn. Even if there were a feature-for-feature compatibility and it all looked the same, what would be the value gained for the few stragglers brought along? This value would all be in the hands of the people prepared to sell those new Windows-like desktops to companies, which brings us back to the chicken-egg scenario. - Karsten [1] http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/008499.html -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From shiser at cloud9.net Tue Aug 16 19:37:48 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (swhiser) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:37:48 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <43023D18.9000606@cloud9.net> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> <1124218377.18963.167.camel@erato.phig.org> <4302374F.1020801@cloud9.net> <43023D18.9000606@cloud9.net> Message-ID: <4302408C.2080109@cloud9.net> swhiser wrote: > swhiser wrote: > >> Karsten Wade wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 20:17 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> Aza dotzler presentation on requirements for Desktop Linux is a >>>> relevant article for what is appealing to the target audience >>>> >>>> http://piercedotzler.com/asa/linux%20%96%20in%20search%20of%20the%20desktop.pdf >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Owch, painful to read presentation. Guess my desktop isn't ready for >>> it. >>> >>> This is the usual chicken-egg problem. He is full of what desktop >>> developers should do. >> Linux Desktop adoption is a set if social problems. Nowhere is it being discussed in open-source circles what the go-to-market strategy is to get across the Chasm. Companies have a strategies and are martialing their resources while Linux becomes more palatable to Mom & Pop: Red Hat: [you know better than I] Novell: [slow progress] IBM: Workplace! This is brilliant because it makes Windows irrelevant without threatening its replacement. It is a Cross-the-Chasm strategy that acknowledges that large oganizations really don't want to touch the desktop. I mean, the only thing more freightening than the patch regime and the instability of Windows is the idea of disturbing it. We need non-threatening alternatives while popular opinion moves to accept a Linux situation. -Sam >>> >>> There are a few good points in there, which are overshadowed by >>> problems >>> not addressed. For example, how does he propose getting all of these >>> preferences off a proprietary file system and out of proprietary >>> applications? To live side-by-side, Windows needs to be installed on a >>> FAT file system, which is usually not the case in the NTFS world. >>> >>> I appreciate that Linux desktop developers are trying to do better than >>> just to cater to Windows users. >>> >>> People act like Windows is the be-all of computer experience. People >>> get used to changes because they have to. Linux desktop being >>> widespread will likely come about for the same reason Windows got >>> widespread -- businesses adopted it, users got used to it at work, and >>> they brought it home. >>> >>> When that happens, I will be proud that we didn't produce a Windows >>> clone. >>> >>> - Karsten >>> >>> >> >> The presentation speaks for itself as to why Linux can't get across. >> -Sam Hiser > > > > I mean, is that Sanscrit? > -Sam > >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >>> Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >>> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list >>> >> >> -- >> Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >> Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list >> > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Tue Aug 16 19:38:01 2005 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:38:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > [4] Figure out a way to *sell* Fedora goodies > > The biggest blocker here, honestly, is a treasurer. We could set up a > Cafe Press store in 15 minutes; the real issue is, who handles the money? > This is one of the upcoming issues to be resolved by the Foundation, but > once we're there, I think that this item moves right to the top. Not about who handles the money, but about how the money is handled, going towards producing free stuff (CDs, stickers, keyrings, ...) sounds reasonable. The foundation as soon as it's launched should make arrangements to be listed on sf.net's donatable charities. From shiser at cloud9.net Tue Aug 16 19:41:59 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (swhiser) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:41:59 -0400 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <1124220648.18963.180.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> <1124218377.18963.167.camel@erato.phig.org> <4302374F.1020801@cloud9.net> <1124220648.18963.180.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <43024187.9000009@cloud9.net> Karsten Wade wrote: >On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 14:58 -0400, swhiser wrote: > > > >>The presentation speaks for itself as to why Linux can't get across. >> >> > >I disagree, but that's mainly because a presentation of slides /= a real >report. Fortunately, I read his article[1] as well. Or do you mean, >because he used special Acrobat PDF extensions and non-free fonts, the >presentation looks terrible, and that speaks for itself? That's like >blaming proprietary document formats being unreadable on the recipient, >instead of the sender and they proprietary software vendor. > > Yes, Karsten the font is a large problem in Asa's presentation; but it violates my personal Principle of Minimalism: Do Not Compete with Your Visuals. Too many letters and words. Additionally, I disagree with many of his statements and, particularly, assumptions & emphasis. -Sam >The problem is, he is discussing Linux in general, as if it were one >entity. Anyone is welcome to put the kind of polish on a desktop that >he is proposing, without having to make "all of Linux" do that. > >I find his ideas contradictory. For example, in his article he >specifically mentions the reversal of OK and Cancel in GNOME is stupid, >then he says, "... application developers need to make some of the hard >choices and stop falling back on the "make it a user option" solution >that seems to be all too popular in most software these days." > >Well, are we to trust our usability experts to make these decisions or >not? He seems to think yes, and well, no. It depends on how "valuable >to change" an area is, versus how "comfortable" the change is. > >As long as the future of Linux on the desktop is couched in the terms of >how like Windows it is for Regular Users, I think we'll do little more >than be a Windows UI clone. Since the Windows UI sucks, why clone it? > >After all, we already have Xandros. > >FWIW, no amount of catering will get people to be unlazy. I tend to >agree that a Windows2Linux migration project would be good and helpful, >but I already encounter people who were surprised at how easy a modern >Linux desktop is to learn. Even if there were a feature-for-feature >compatibility and it all looked the same, what would be the value gained >for the few stragglers brought along? This value would all be in the >hands of the people prepared to sell those new Windows-like desktops to >companies, which brings us back to the chicken-egg scenario. > >- Karsten >[1] http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/008499.html > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 21:57:45 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >We can start a LUG section asap and make this a prominent page. Who wants > >it? > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LUG. Please fill in the required information OK, this is 1/10th of the work. The other 9/10ths of the work: * Advertising the existence of this page. * Explaining to people why they'd want to add their info to this page. * Building a LUG program that creates value for the people who add their info to this page. * As the page grows, cleaning up the formatting of the page, since if 100 LUGs add their info to this page, it'll be unreadable. Every journey must start with a single step, of course. This is a good step one. :) _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Wed Aug 17 01:13:24 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:13:24 +0800 Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <42FE07DF.9060408@redhat.com> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42FAE13F.2080604@redhat.com> <1123745111.17624.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1123853588.4311.1.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1123914388.5294.28.camel@erato.phig.org> <42FDFCE7.8010509@redhat.com> <42FE07DF.9060408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124241204.4213.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-08-13 at 20:16 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >>It would be good to start a fedora-mentors list and see if it works. We > >>dont risk much by that effort. > >> > >> > > > >A mailing list is sort of already an environment of mentorship by > >committee, isn't it? Are we talking about more of a one-on-one > >relationship? Perhaps we're better off with a simple mechanism for > >matching mentors and mentees. Maybe we do something like... > > > >1. Build a simple wiki page with a couple of paragraphs talking about why > >a mentor program is valuable and useful. > > > > > Done. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors > > >2. A sign-up page for prospective mentors, where they describe what > >they're good at. > > > >3. A sign-up page for prospective mentees, where they describe what skills > >they're looking to improve. > > > > > We really need to advertise that there is a oppurtunity first. I am not > sure how the sign up process is supposed to work. Do you mean other wiki > pages? > My apologies for not replying sooner I've been traveling for a last few days and I didn't expect any response. Anyways I *should* be at the next meeting 1am my time. Can someone double check the GMT time so I can be sure its the correct time. Anyways on a side note I like the wiki page except I don't know where to sign up for the mailing list. Also can we add links to other resources. So that someone who IS interested can at least turn around and look for further information so we don't get someone asking what I need to download to start packaging a software. Or how do I submit a package or how do I write up documentation. Or if someone has written documentation yet the formatting is wrong. I think personally most people are pretty good and that they would be happy to do research but questions specific to certain instances is where they would ask questions. IMO of course. Regards, Marc From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Aug 17 01:14:52 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:14:52 +1000 Subject: Meeting Message-ID: <1124241292.21186.123.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Same time as usual, #fedora-mktg on freenode THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 15:00 UTC THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 11:00 Eastern US THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 08:00 Western US FRIDAY AUGUST 19, 01:00 Melbourne (UTC+10) See you all then Reply to this to set an agenda as well... -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Wed Aug 17 01:30:18 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:30:18 +0800 Subject: Fedora Logo and background In-Reply-To: <20050816050022.DCF367B49D@ws5-10.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050816050022.DCF367B49D@ws5-10.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <1124242219.4213.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> All I can is I would have to agree with you those FC the 'final' ones look great. I really like them. I think congrats are in order at least from me. Regards Marc From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Wed Aug 17 01:41:06 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:41:06 +0800 Subject: Meeting In-Reply-To: <1124241292.21186.123.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1124241292.21186.123.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1124242866.4213.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 11:14 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > Same time as usual, #fedora-mktg on freenode > > THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 15:00 UTC > THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 11:00 Eastern US > THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 08:00 Western US > FRIDAY AUGUST 19, 01:00 Melbourne (UTC+10) > > See you all then > > Reply to this to set an agenda as well... Thats 11pm Friday for me. I'm UTC+8 woot go Perth. My eyeballs will still be in place :) I usually don't go to bed until 11 so I'll stay up that little bit longer. I would like to discuss the mentors for obvious reasons. I have been doing research on the debian-mentors list in the mean time. :) Regards, Marc From sankar at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 03:32:30 2005 From: sankar at redhat.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhay) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:02:30 +0530 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4302AFCE.5040701@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Aza dotzler presentation on requirements for Desktop Linux is a relevant > article for what is appealing to the target audience > > http://piercedotzler.com/asa/linux%20%96%20in%20search%20of%20the%20desktop.pdf Rahul, thanks for the link. Unfortunately, we seem to be moving in the same loop of *Why can't my desktop be like Windows ?* Very wrong and not the right way to a good and proper Linux Desktop. Both in this presentation and the blog, the issues mentioned relate mostly to Usability on the Linux Desktop Environments vis-a-vis the Windows UI. The assumption for this hypothesis is that the Windows UI is picture perfect - not true at all. Assuming that there is no real need to clone a Windows UI to make a usable Linux desktop, the real challenge is to enhance learnability. The few deployments of Fedora based LTSP setups that I have been involved with have resulted in one conclusion - given no prior experience of a desktop, the FC/Linux desktop is easily learnt by the end users. On the other hand, anything above Windows98 (and by that one includes a majority of the Government offices in India) causes usability issues in terms of terminal usage/command-line interface, print-tool usage, browser usage (inexperience with tabs) and mail client feature requests. A W2L migration without putting in place a proper study of functional usage normally leads to cribbing (pardon this term, could not find a better word) about the *learning curve*. Regards Sankarshan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD4DBQFDAq/N+g4kmZ76nyERAiqlAJYn6vtULg8hXSoNobBAG0gZSIVIAJ0cHb72 JobRYTPrlbTgjcMBDSX4Lw== =+gKc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Aug 17 05:59:47 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:59:47 +0300 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <1124220648.18963.180.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> <1124218377.18963.167.camel@erato.phig.org> <4302374F.1020801@cloud9.net> <1124220648.18963.180.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4302D253.8000508@nicubunu.ro> Karsten Wade wrote: > > FWIW, no amount of catering will get people to be unlazy. I tend to > agree that a Windows2Linux migration project would be good and helpful, > but I already encounter people who were surprised at how easy a modern > Linux desktop is to learn. Even if there were a feature-for-feature > compatibility and it all looked the same, what would be the value gained > for the few stragglers brought along? This value would all be in the > hands of the people prepared to sell those new Windows-like desktops to > companies, which brings us back to the chicken-egg scenario. Speaking about migration, I have serious doubts regarding his strategy: "It will need to install on machines next to Windows, leaving that intact and easy to return to, and carry over all or nearly all of user's data and settings." Having the "safety" of Windows to return to will decrease the user motivation to migrate. Also I don't agree with the idea to copy all the settings, for example a GNOME desktop should be leaved with the default GNOME settings, as it was designed, trying to made it behave like Windows will produce only an inconsistent and hard to use desktop. PS: I guess the title is wrong, , instead of "Linux not ready for the desktop" it should be "GNOME not ready for the desktop" or "KDE not ready for the desktop" -- nicu From lxmaier at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 07:41:51 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:41:51 +0200 Subject: Meeting In-Reply-To: <1124242866.4213.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124241292.21186.123.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124242866.4213.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7f617d2705081700415307b1a9@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, can't make it--will be on the plane to Raleigh. Please add FUDCon to the agenda: a) discuss the preliminary schedule I sent to Colin and Greg; b) get more speakers, as so far our schedule is inthe minimal configuration, and we can easily fit in two or even four more talks. Thanks, a On 8/17/05, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 11:14 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > Same time as usual, #fedora-mktg on freenode > > > > THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 15:00 UTC > > THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 11:00 Eastern US > > THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 08:00 Western US > > FRIDAY AUGUST 19, 01:00 Melbourne (UTC+10) > > > > See you all then > > > > Reply to this to set an agenda as well... > > Thats 11pm Friday for me. I'm UTC+8 woot go Perth. My eyeballs will > still be in place :) > > I usually don't go to bed until 11 so I'll stay up that little bit > longer. I would like to discuss the mentors for obvious reasons. I > have been doing research on the debian-mentors list in the mean > time. :) > > Regards, > > > Marc > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 17 08:50:39 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 03:50:39 -0500 Subject: Meeting In-Reply-To: <7f617d2705081700415307b1a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <1124241292.21186.123.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124242866.4213.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f617d2705081700415307b1a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4302FA5F.90009@n-man.com> Alex Maier wrote: >Sorry, can't make it--will be on the plane to Raleigh. > >Please add FUDCon to the agenda: >a) discuss the preliminary schedule I sent to Colin and Greg; >b) get more speakers, as so far our schedule is inthe minimal >configuration, and we can easily fit in two or even four more talks. > >Thanks, >a > >On 8/17/05, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > >>On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 11:14 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: >> >> >>>Same time as usual, #fedora-mktg on freenode >>> >>>THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 15:00 UTC >>>THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 11:00 Eastern US >>>THURSDAY AUGUST 18, 08:00 Western US >>>FRIDAY AUGUST 19, 01:00 Melbourne (UTC+10) >>> >>>See you all then >>> >>>Reply to this to set an agenda as well... >>> >>> >>Thats 11pm Friday for me. I'm UTC+8 woot go Perth. My eyeballs will >>still be in place :) >> >>I usually don't go to bed until 11 so I'll stay up that little bit >>longer. I would like to discuss the mentors for obvious reasons. I >>have been doing research on the debian-mentors list in the mean >>time. :) >> >>Regards, >> >> >>Marc >> >>-- >>Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >>Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list >> >> >> > > > > A few thoughts on the agenda: 1. Certainly agree about discussing mentors, seems to be catching a lot of interest. 2. With LinuxWorld out of the way, it is time to start really pulling London together, lets fill those tracks with speakers. 3. Right along with the mentors, talk about LUGs is drawing attention. Lets set a direction for our efforts there. 4. Maybe it's just me, but we don't seem to be very well liked by the press. I'd like to take a few minutes to talk about maybe proactively working with the press. This is something we need to turn around quickly, or it will hurt us badly in the long run. Aside from that, I'd love to hear updates about a few other things (not necessarily in the meeting): 1. Where do we stand on the logo? What kind of a timeframe are we looking at before we have something usable? 2. There's plenty of interest in the Fedora treats/swag/gear. When are we going to start seeing stuff? 3. Although I think it may be influenced by the logo, what about the slogan? There hasn't been as much said about it as the logo. I think following the release of the logo with a simple contest for the slogan would be great. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 09:09:02 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:39:02 +0530 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4302FEAE.7020003@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > >>Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> >> >> >>>We can start a LUG section asap and make this a prominent page. Who wants >>>it? >>> >>> >> >>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LUG. Please fill in the required information >> >> > >OK, this is 1/10th of the work. > >The other 9/10ths of the work: > * Advertising the existence of this page. > * Explaining to people why they'd want to add their info to this page. > * Building a LUG program that creates value for the people who add their > info to this page. > * As the page grows, cleaning up the formatting of the page, since if > 100 LUGs add their info to this page, it'll be unreadable. > >Every journey must start with a single step, of course. This is a good >step one. :) > Everyone in this list can start filling in the information and sending out the page to their local LUG's. I am not very good with wiki markup and it would be helpful to have someone to clean up behind me ;-) regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 09:21:33 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:51:33 +0530 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4302D253.8000508@nicubunu.ro> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> <1124218377.18963.167.camel@erato.phig.org> <4302374F.1020801@cloud9.net> <1124220648.18963.180.camel@erato.phig.org> <4302D253.8000508@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <4303019D.5030604@redhat.com> Hi > > PS: I guess the title is wrong, , instead of "Linux not ready for the > desktop" it should be "GNOME not ready for the desktop" or "KDE not > ready for the desktop" > You are arguing semantics there. Large majority of end users make no differentiation between GNOME/KDE UI and a "Linux UI" regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 09:26:13 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:56:13 +0530 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4302AFCE.5040701@redhat.com> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> <4302AFCE.5040701@redhat.com> Message-ID: <430302B5.5040508@redhat.com> Sankarshan Mukhopadhay wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > >>Aza dotzler presentation on requirements for Desktop Linux is a relevant >>article for what is appealing to the target audience >> >>http://piercedotzler.com/asa/linux%20%96%20in%20search%20of%20the%20desktop.pdf >> >> > >Rahul, thanks for the link. > >Unfortunately, we seem to be moving in the same loop of *Why can't my >desktop be like Windows ?* Very wrong and not the right way to a good >and proper Linux Desktop. > >Both in this presentation and the blog, the issues mentioned relate >mostly to Usability on the Linux Desktop Environments vis-a-vis the >Windows UI. The assumption for this hypothesis is that the Windows UI is >picture perfect - not true at all. Assuming that there is no real need >to clone a Windows UI to make a usable Linux desktop, the real challenge >is to enhance learnability. > > We have to make it easy for people to migrate from the Windows UI regardless of its flaws. We dont need to create a perfect clone. That would be monumentally stupid but we can try and understand what makes the current UI a higher learning curve. My opinion is that data migration is of a even higher priority than UI similarity. GNOME and KDE is comfortably close now. There are other points like installing legacy group by default which is trivially easy. Lets say you try to install Real player (ignore for the moment that its a proprietary player, a open source off repository player will do the same thing) on Fedora Core 4, you will get a obscure error about some .so file missing which you will have to rectify by using installing a compat libstdc++ library. >on the other hand, anything above Windows98 (and by that one >includes a majority of the Government offices in India) causes usability >issues in terms of terminal usage/command-line interface, print-tool >usage, browser usage (inexperience with tabs) and mail client feature >requests. > > Precisely. So lets look at the action items here * Install the legacy group in Anaconda by default for better backward compatibility. The Fedora Extras repository is not going to cover every software out there. * Mount FAT filesystems by default in first boot. (NTFS is off limits) * Investigate a tool like openmover.sf.net for data migration after confirmation with user on first boot * Trim down core to defaults as much as possible regards Rahul From sankar at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 09:34:20 2005 From: sankar at redhat.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhay) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:04:20 +0530 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4302FEAE.7020003@redhat.com> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> <4302FEAE.7020003@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4303049C.3040905@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Everyone in this list can start filling in the information and sending > out the page to their local LUG's. I am not very good with wiki markup > and it would be helpful to have someone to clean up behind me ;-) Let's have the introductory blurb, I'll blog it at http://planet-india.randomink.org and perhaps get it to be mentioned at LinuxForYou (www.linuxforu.com) as well post to a few of the Indian LUGs. Regards Sankarshan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDAwSc+g4kmZ76nyERApf9AJ9gj9AQo4tGNaCMVDyPrr1hnex4BgCgowS2 w7tGUmr982EuJtZ0xRMZaUs= =Kv1/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 10:13:15 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:43:15 +0530 Subject: FC3 impressions Message-ID: <43030DBB.3080201@redhat.com> Hi Not a very convincing article I am afraid http://linux-noob.com/review/fedora/fcr3/ regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 11:13:12 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:43:12 +0530 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> Message-ID: <43031BC8.1080302@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Aza dotzler presentation on requirements for Desktop Linux is a > relevant article for what is appealing to the target audience > > http://piercedotzler.com/asa/linux%20%96%20in%20search%20of%20the%20desktop.pdf > Tom Tromey brings out a bulletin list from Aza's presentation http://www.peakpeak.com/~tromey/blog/2005/08/16/#even-more-oscon regards Rahul From mschwendt at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 13:23:04 2005 From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:23:04 +0200 Subject: FC3 impressions In-Reply-To: <43030DBB.3080201@redhat.com> References: <43030DBB.3080201@redhat.com> Message-ID: <440f31f605081706234921b60e@mail.gmail.com> On 17/08/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Not a very convincing article I am afraid > > http://linux-noob.com/review/fedora/fcr3/ But a typical scenario of an incomplete pre-installed Fedora Core. Surely you cannot expect a "noob" (quote) to be able to add some of the missing components, not limited to Java RE, Flash, Mplayer + Firefox plugin, Realplayer 10, Acroread, mp3/mpeg add-ons (e.g. several found at rpm.livna.org). That is not a trivial thing to do as it needs more than just clicking "OK" in a graphical dialog. From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 19:37:13 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:37:13 -0700 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <4303019D.5030604@redhat.com> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> <1124218377.18963.167.camel@erato.phig.org> <4302374F.1020801@cloud9.net> <1124220648.18963.180.camel@erato.phig.org> <4302D253.8000508@nicubunu.ro> <4303019D.5030604@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124307433.15743.59.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 14:51 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > > > PS: I guess the title is wrong, , instead of "Linux not ready for the > > desktop" it should be "GNOME not ready for the desktop" or "KDE not > > ready for the desktop" > > > You are arguing semantics there. Large majority of end users make no > differentiation between GNOME/KDE UI and a "Linux UI" Yes, but authors such as the one of the article discussed here need to have some clue about that. After all, arguing about the desktop with a kernel engineer is like discussing dashboard layout details with the powerplant automotive engineer. It is worth noting because both GNOME and KDE have particular ideas around usability. They are not just pulling features from their rear clefts. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 19:42:19 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:12:19 +0530 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <1124307433.15743.59.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> <1124218377.18963.167.camel@erato.phig.org> <4302374F.1020801@cloud9.net> <1124220648.18963.180.camel@erato.phig.org> <4302D253.8000508@nicubunu.ro> <4303019D.5030604@redhat.com> <1124307433.15743.59.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4303931B.6060307@redhat.com> Karsten Wade wrote: >On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 14:51 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Hi >> >> >> >>>PS: I guess the title is wrong, , instead of "Linux not ready for the >>>desktop" it should be "GNOME not ready for the desktop" or "KDE not >>>ready for the desktop" >>> >>> >>> >>You are arguing semantics there. Large majority of end users make no >>differentiation between GNOME/KDE UI and a "Linux UI" >> >> > >Yes, but authors such as the one of the article discussed here need to >have some clue about that. > I am pretty sure he understand Desktop Linux interfaces to stand for GNOME/KDE or dozens of alternative WM 's or DE's. The presentation does apply to all of them. Clarifying that is side stepping from the actual issues being discussed regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 17 19:52:09 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:22:09 +0530 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4303049C.3040905@redhat.com> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> <4302FEAE.7020003@redhat.com> <4303049C.3040905@redhat.com> Message-ID: <43039569.1040201@redhat.com> Sankarshan Mukhopadhay wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > >>Everyone in this list can start filling in the information and sending >>out the page to their local LUG's. I am not very good with wiki markup >>and it would be helpful to have someone to clean up behind me ;-) >> >> > >Let's have the introductory blurb, I'll blog it at >http://planet-india.randomink.org and perhaps get it to be mentioned at >LinuxForYou (www.linuxforu.com) as well post to a few of the Indian LUGs. > > I wrote a short blurb http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LUG. If you are in the edit group for the wiki, feel free to add more details. A call for arms type of article in LFY would nice regards Rahul From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Aug 18 01:08:11 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:08:11 +0800 Subject: Desktop Linux In-Reply-To: <430302B5.5040508@redhat.com> References: <4301FC71.5010301@redhat.com> <4302AFCE.5040701@redhat.com> <430302B5.5040508@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124327291.22486.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > > We have to make it easy for people to migrate from the Windows UI > regardless of its flaws. We dont need to create a perfect clone. That > would be monumentally stupid but we can try and understand what makes > the current UI a higher learning curve. My opinion is that data > migration is of a even higher priority than UI similarity. GNOME and KDE > is comfortably close now. There are other points like installing legacy > group by default which is trivially easy. Lets say you try to install > Real player (ignore for the moment that its a proprietary player, a open > source off repository player will do the same thing) on Fedora Core 4, > you will get a obscure error about some .so file missing which you will > have to rectify by using installing a compat libstdc++ library. > I agree with this whole heartedly however the problem is people like to download a file and then *install* it I like the fact of compiling but thats me. An average user would not want to compile a program. Plus even when compiling e.g. mplayer there are all different files/codecs that can and can't /shouldn't be used I think that while we stress the packaging system thats all we really can do since we do not have control over the creators. > > > > > Precisely. So lets look at the action items here > > * Install the legacy group in Anaconda by default for better backward > compatibility. The Fedora Extras repository is not going to cover every > software out there. > * Mount FAT filesystems by default in first boot. (NTFS is off limits) > * Investigate a tool like openmover.sf.net for data migration after > confirmation with user on first boot > * Trim down core to defaults as much as possible There was a script and I'll try to find it that goes through your harddrives and finds different partitions and mounts them under the /media folder. I possibly think that in addition to this it could be added to Places in gnome. I'm not sure if it automagicallly does this however if it doesn't may some editing of the file can help. I'll try and find that bash script and add it to another post. Regards, Marc From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Aug 18 14:19:42 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:19:42 +1000 Subject: REMINDER: Marketing meeting - in less than an hour Message-ID: <1124374782.21186.319.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Yes, subject says it all. 15:00 UTC is fast approaching (its 14:19UTC now) #fedora-mktg on irc.freenode.net See you there -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Aug 18 14:54:03 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:54:03 +1000 Subject: fedora websites In-Reply-To: References: <7f1eacdd05081009387a72088c@mail.gmail.com> <42FB5AFA.6070408@redhat.com> <42FB6076.7050902@narmida.com> <42FB6152.8070601@redhat.com> <556f970a05081108046f45ecb3@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05081108201a46ed0d@mail.gmail.com> <42FB6E2F.6040400@redhat.com> <7f1eacdd0508110939473baa25@mail.gmail.com> <440f31f605081207485a5f8a53@mail.gmail.com> <1123871325.5294.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124376843.21186.326.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 14:48 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > > The biggest problem is not really dynamically generated pages, but > plain > old text that changes rapidly. We just need a system for handling > that > (so that, for example, translators don't translate documents in > progress), > and a group of translators with enough capacity to handle the needs of > the > project. Sarah and her team at fedora-trans-list might be able to help here? They already hack on PO files, why not web content? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Aug 18 14:57:23 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:57:23 +1000 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <1124127169.18963.35.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> <1124127169.18963.35.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124377043.21186.328.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 10:32 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > note to self: glad to see used more and more as "alternate logos" one of > > my hats (http://clipart.nicubunu.ro/svg/special/blue_fedora.svg) > > More to the point, that is a perfect example that supports your Fedora > Art project idea. Having that art piece to build upon has enabled a lot > of other art projects to get started, just like source code! > > Source art. Art source. Something saucy like that. Ok, what software can be used to manage art.fedoraproject.org ? One that allows user logins via the web, user upload, and nicely cataloguing it. It must not be a PHP solution, and Python-based solutions are favoured I'm sure we can make this happen, provided the above requirements are met -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Aug 18 14:59:41 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:59:41 +1000 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1124377181.21186.333.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 17:51 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > There are hundreds of LUGs worldwide. How should we be reaching out to > them? Giving away grub, is definitely a good idea And having a Local Community Marketing Contact, is definitely a way to go. One or two people, represnting their local community. I think its the winning way, and has worked for OpenOffice.org for about 5 years -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Aug 18 15:00:32 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:00:32 +1000 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124377232.21186.334.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 20:03 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >We can start a LUG section asap and make this a prominent page. Who > wants > >it? > > > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LUG. Please fill in the required > information Can we then officially make said LUG rep the community marketing contact? I.e. if there's a new FC release, or something press worthy that we come up with, they deal with local press? They also do all the other requirements, like during Software Freedom Day, they organise stuff, and so on Regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Aug 18 15:07:51 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:07:51 -0400 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <1124377043.21186.328.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> <1124127169.18963.35.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124377043.21186.328.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1124377671.6540.7.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 00:57 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 10:32 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > note to self: glad to see used more and more as "alternate logos" one of > > > my hats (http://clipart.nicubunu.ro/svg/special/blue_fedora.svg) > > > > More to the point, that is a perfect example that supports your Fedora > > Art project idea. Having that art piece to build upon has enabled a lot > > of other art projects to get started, just like source code! > > > > Source art. Art source. Something saucy like that. > > Ok, what software can be used to manage art.fedoraproject.org ? > > One that allows user logins via the web, user upload, and nicely > cataloguing it. It must not be a PHP solution, and Python-based > solutions are favoured > > I'm sure we can make this happen, provided the above requirements are > met Diana Fong and I discussed this briefly. She was going to talk to some of the art.gnome.org to see what they have. -sv From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Aug 18 15:01:16 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:01:16 +1000 Subject: subscript In-Reply-To: <001201c5a235$fe945eb0$3c01a8c0@CECILIA> References: <001201c5a235$fe945eb0$3c01a8c0@CECILIA> Message-ID: <1124377277.21186.336.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 09:42 +0200, Luigi Rolatti wrote: You have been subscribed for a while, stop posting "subscription" requests Thanks -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Aug 18 16:00:09 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 02:00:09 +1000 Subject: Meeting Minutes (19/08/2005) Message-ID: <1124380809.21186.340.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> (yes, skewed to my TZ, its really 18/08/2005 for the rest of you) Fedora Marketing Meeting (Fri Aug 19 01:03:09 EST 2005) Present: Colin Charles (byte) Bob Jensen (StillBob) Chris Negus (cnegus) Kazunari Hirano (khirano) Rahul Sundaram (mether) Karsten Wade (quaid) Behdad (behdad) Greg DeKoenigsberg (gregdek) Jeremy Hogan (jhogan) Steven Garrity (sgarrity) Regrets: Alex Maier Agenda: * Fedora Mentors (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors). Start with each project, Karsten did the Docs Project this week. All steering members are encourage to put names on Mentors wiki page, and contact anyone who has introduced or lurked there. - to market, each sub project has leads/sub-leads. Shoot off mail to them. Then a massive announcement to fedora-maintainers and fedora-devel-list - covers engineering and packaging, how do i write patches, how do I contribute? how do I find the people who get stuff done? what is verbotten in the Fedora community? ACTION: Colin to contact lead/co-lead of projects/sub-projects in Fedora, to inform them of mentors. Look to hand this off to Mark. * Hole in FUDCon London 2005 schedule - Greg suggests a BOF, and Greg will lead the BOF. ACTION: Greg to tell Alex he's going to do that * Community Marketing Contacts - based on openoffice.org, http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html. Triage is part of the outreach program. What's a list of CMC responsibilities? yes, so, we have a "global" lead and "regional" leads. gregdek: people the press can talk to, handle LUG talks provide informational talks at unis hand out flyers organise events (like Red Hat meetup) Do CMCs get together for meetings like this one? for starters, i think those are good expectations. I will write this up all more coherently, and send to list - Greg/jhogan (FIGHT! ;-)) volunteers to be the CMC for South East US - Bob volunteers for Mid West US - Karsten has Silicon Valley/Central California - Mether and Tejas for India ACTION: Colin to mangle responsibilities and market it * Swag skipped * Logo: Greg says its awaiting more treatments at the agency :) * ACTION: Bob to create list of Fedora sites. Place it on fedoralinks.org * Steve: Welcome Windows users, provide some form of transition kit. Karsten mentions this is beyond the scope of Docs, but if there existed a tool in Fedora, it can be documented. OpenMoveover.sf.net is suggested, for settings migration. ACTION: Punt to -marketing-list for more ideas * Rahul wants to "market" the idea of enabling legacy group by default in the installer * Steve: I'm a bit late on this, but a have a suggestion for FUDcon - invite a Ubuntu-er and Novell-er, etc. to talk about what they might be doing in their distros that might be interesting for Fedora. Karsten tops that with someone from openSuse.org, and Greg finds it interesting. -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From hballal at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 16:09:38 2005 From: hballal at gmail.com (Hrishikesh Ballal) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:09:38 -0400 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 14, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <20050818160113.B8C4073CDE@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20050818160113.B8C4073CDE@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <87d5f043050818090955528398@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, This is regarding art.fedoraproject.org. I think there is a similar setup available at www.fedoraforum.org "Gallery" area... I just wanted to clarify... or maybe I missed something... Are we propsing to make a new area where people can upload their art? Or we combine the existing one and put new software over it and move to www.fedoraproject.org? - Hrishi On 8/18/05, fedora-marketing-list-request at redhat.com > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:07:51 -0400 > From: seth vidal > Subject: Re: Fedora Branding > To: Discussions on expanding the Fedora user base > , Colin Charles > Message-ID: <1124377671.6540.7.camel at cutter> > Content-Type: text/plain > > On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 00:57 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 10:32 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > > > note to self: glad to see used more and more as "alternate logos" one of > > > > my hats (http://clipart.nicubunu.ro/svg/special/blue_fedora.svg) > > > > > > More to the point, that is a perfect example that supports your Fedora > > > Art project idea. Having that art piece to build upon has enabled a lot > > > of other art projects to get started, just like source code! > > > > > > Source art. Art source. Something saucy like that. > > > > Ok, what software can be used to manage art.fedoraproject.org ? > > > > One that allows user logins via the web, user upload, and nicely > > cataloguing it. It must not be a PHP solution, and Python-based > > solutions are favoured > > > > I'm sure we can make this happen, provided the above requirements are > > met > > Diana Fong and I discussed this briefly. She was going to talk to some > of the art.gnome.org to see what they have. > > -sv > > > From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 17:12:47 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:12:47 -0400 Subject: Meeting Minutes (19/08/2005) In-Reply-To: <1124380809.21186.340.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1124380809.21186.340.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <556f970a05081810127e39efb6@mail.gmail.com> On 8/18/05, Colin Charles wrote: > - Greg/jhogan (FIGHT! ;-)) volunteers to be the CMC for South East US > - Bob volunteers for Mid West US > - Karsten has Silicon Valley/Central California > - Mether and Tejas for India If this will be broken up by region, I'll happily be Greg's back-up without a fight. Many folks don't know this, but he is Red Hat's bare knuckle boxing champion. Pound for pound the most dangerous man in open source. He even took out infamous truck-stop brawler "Tank" Murdock... wait that was Philo Beddoe and his orangutan. --jeremy From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 18 17:15:21 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:45:21 +0530 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 14, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <87d5f043050818090955528398@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050818160113.B8C4073CDE@hormel.redhat.com> <87d5f043050818090955528398@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4304C229.3040801@redhat.com> Hi >I just wanted to clarify... or maybe I missed something... Are we >propsing to make a new area where people can upload their art? > Yes. regards Rahul From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Aug 18 17:34:57 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:34:57 -0700 Subject: Meeting Minutes (19/08/2005) In-Reply-To: <1124380809.21186.340.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1124380809.21186.340.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1124386497.24667.27.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 02:00 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > - Greg/jhogan (FIGHT! ;-)) volunteers to be the CMC for South East US > - Bob volunteers for Mid West US > - Karsten has Silicon Valley/Central California > - Mether and Tejas for India I volunteer for Northwest US, though I'll happily share duties due to travel concerns. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 17:52:32 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:52:32 -0400 Subject: Meeting Minutes (19/08/2005) In-Reply-To: <1124386497.24667.27.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <1124380809.21186.340.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124386497.24667.27.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05081810521a1eb7f0@mail.gmail.com> On 8/18/05, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 02:00 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > > > - Greg/jhogan (FIGHT! ;-)) volunteers to be the CMC for South East US > > - Bob volunteers for Mid West US > > - Karsten has Silicon Valley/Central California > > - Mether and Tejas for India I'll volunteer to CMC somehow, but my area's taken by Dek.../Hogan. Matt Frye From gdk at redhat.com Thu Aug 18 17:53:36 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meeting Minutes (19/08/2005) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05081810521a1eb7f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1124380809.21186.340.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124386497.24667.27.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <7f1eacdd05081810521a1eb7f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Then I'll happily step aside and let mattfrye+jhogan step up! :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Matt Frye wrote: > On 8/18/05, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 02:00 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > > > > > - Greg/jhogan (FIGHT! ;-)) volunteers to be the CMC for South East US > > > - Bob volunteers for Mid West US > > > - Karsten has Silicon Valley/Central California > > > - Mether and Tejas for India > > I'll volunteer to CMC somehow, but my area's taken by Dek.../Hogan. > > Matt Frye > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From luya at jpopmail.com Thu Aug 18 20:03:22 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:03:22 -0800 Subject: Fedora Logo and background Message-ID: <20050818200322.C4ECD23D09@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 21:13:29 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:13:29 -0400 Subject: Meeting Minutes (19/08/2005) In-Reply-To: References: <1124380809.21186.340.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124386497.24667.27.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <7f1eacdd05081810521a1eb7f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a050818141323aa180a@mail.gmail.com> On 8/18/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Then I'll happily step aside and let mattfrye+jhogan step up! :) You lazy bastard... I mean, cool. --jeremy From nman64 at n-man.com Thu Aug 18 22:16:09 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:16:09 -0500 Subject: Meeting Minutes (19/08/2005) In-Reply-To: <1124380809.21186.340.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1124380809.21186.340.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <430508A9.9030600@n-man.com> Colin Charles wrote: > - Greg/jhogan (FIGHT! ;-)) volunteers to be the CMC for South East US > - Bob volunteers for Mid West US > - Karsten has Silicon Valley/Central California > - Mether and Tejas for India > > > I would be happy to help out for the mid-south U.S. (Texas) in whatever ways I can. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Aug 19 01:08:39 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:08:39 +0800 Subject: REMINDER: Marketing meeting - in less than an hour In-Reply-To: <1124374782.21186.319.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1124374782.21186.319.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1124413719.13219.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 00:19 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > Yes, subject says it all. 15:00 UTC is fast approaching (its 14:19UTC > now) > > #fedora-mktg on irc.freenode.net > > See you there Apologies for not showing I got the dates mixed up. I thought it was tonight being Friday night where it should have been 11pm Thursday night :(. I was awake as well I won't make that mistake again. I do sincerely apologise to all concerned. Regards, Marc From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Aug 19 04:01:07 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:01:07 +0800 Subject: Unfortunate articles Message-ID: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi All, I have been reading up on fedoraforums and I found some interesting links to articles. http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=article-rpm Thats the article itself. It poses some interesting points and some of them I feel are valid. The question is though is it an rpm problem or is it a yum / apt or whatever package management softwares fault. I'd be interested to hear your point of view. If this has been pointed out before please forgive my ignorance. Regards, Marc From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 04:05:40 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:35:40 +0530 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >Hi All, > >I have been reading up on fedoraforums and I found some interesting >links to articles. > >http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=article-rpm > >Thats the article itself. It poses some interesting points and some of >them I feel are valid. The question is though is it an rpm problem or >is it a yum / apt or whatever package management softwares fault. I'd >be interested to hear your point of view. If this has been pointed out >before please forgive my ignorance. > > The article is pretty old. The dependencies issues that it talks about can easily be resolved by using yum or up2date. It might be useful to send a mail to the distrowatch maintainer asking him to add a note on top implying this or just link to http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ regards Rahul From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Aug 19 04:32:42 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:32:42 +0800 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 09:35 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > >Hi All, > > > >I have been reading up on fedoraforums and I found some interesting > >links to articles. > > > >http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=article-rpm > > > >Thats the article itself. It poses some interesting points and some of > >them I feel are valid. The question is though is it an rpm problem or > >is it a yum / apt or whatever package management softwares fault. I'd > >be interested to hear your point of view. If this has been pointed out > >before please forgive my ignorance. > > > > > The article is pretty old. The dependencies issues that it talks about > can easily be resolved by using yum or up2date. It might be useful to > send a mail to the distrowatch maintainer asking him to add a note on > top implying this or just link to http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ > Thanks for the quick response I have sent him a quick reply just advising him of the docs I would be interested if anyone wants a copy of my email and the response which I hope I get. Regards, Marc From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 04:42:15 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:42:15 -0400 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910508182142262295e4@mail.gmail.com> On 8/19/05, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Hi All, > > I have been reading up on fedoraforums and I found some interesting > links to articles. > > http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=article-rpm I think perhaps that author needs to get acquinted with the kinds of problems debian users had with upgrades to the newest "stable" release of debain which came out recently and then write a more balanced article based on reality. For reference: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/06/msg00006.html There is no silver bullet when it comes to cross-distro incompatibility either. Thanks to the popularity of Ubuntu.. you are going to see more 'incompatible' deb packages as ubuntu diverges away from debian stable. There will be situations where some packages will be debian specific some will be ubuntu specific simply because of the timescales associated with each projects development and the changes they need to incorporate to meet their guiding priorities. The debian ecosystem of distributions is not immune to the problem of incompatible divergence. As for gentoo.. well once you attempt to compile X or openoffice on middle of the road hardware.. you'll quickly see how much coffee you'll end up drinking if you attempt to install and maintain gentoo on a number of machines. Its cute..but it doesn't scale very well. If everyone rolled their own binaries and drank coffee waiting for the results.. we'd quickly run out of coffee. And I NEED my coffee for more important endeavors. In fact I need my coffee so much, that I plan to hunt down and exterminate gentoo users who are wasting such a valuable resource, squandering it while they replicate compiles of upgrades across systems. -jef"its very easy to promise a smooth upgrade...its much harder to state a modest truth. Unfortunately a lot a people seem to value an overreaching promise over honesty nowadays"spaleta From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Aug 19 04:47:19 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:47:19 +0800 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> For those that haven't seen the post. http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=73215 I would like to congratulate Rahul on remaining calm I'm not sure how many valiums (typo possibly) you took but just reading it I was getting angry at his constant criticisms which didn't entail offering any help. I understand he's entitled to his opinion and I sorta appreciate it however at what point does it stop :( Regards, Marc From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Aug 19 04:54:18 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:54:18 +0800 Subject: [Fwd: Re: RPM Article] Message-ID: <1124427258.13219.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> I received a very quick response from the original author and he is quite correct at date of when the article was published. The unfortunate thing is that he has not pointed that out in any future articles. I find that wierd that authors whether good or bad do not seem to point out that it is not valid anymore and prefer to keep the bad in place for an astronomicle (typo) amount of time. Regards, Marc P.S. I attached his response for all I didn't request annonymity hence I've attached. P.P.S. I didn't include any reference to fedora-marketing if anyone was curious due to the fact that I don't feel my opinion represents the group and the fact that what I say is not what everyone says. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Ladislav Bodnar Subject: Re: RPM Article Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:42:50 +0800 Size: 1878 URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 05:06:44 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:36:44 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: Re: RPM Article] In-Reply-To: <1124427258.13219.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124427258.13219.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <430568E4.9070700@redhat.com> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >I received a very quick response from the original author and he is >quite correct at date of when the article was published. The >unfortunate thing is that he has not pointed that out in any future >articles. > >I find that wierd that authors whether good or bad do not seem to point >out that it is not valid anymore and prefer to keep the bad in place for >an astronomicle (typo) amount of time. > Ladislav seema a pretty reasonable guy. Maybe he doesnt realise the problems a old article like that presents. You can request that he add a note specifically that its not valid anymore and is just being archived there for historical reasons or take down the article itself. Feel free to CC marketing on your mails in case he has any follow up responses that he wishes to communicate to everyone here regards Rahul From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Aug 19 05:13:50 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:13:50 +0800 Subject: RPM Article In-Reply-To: <200508191242.50279.distro@distrowatch.com> References: <1124425905.13219.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200508191242.50279.distro@distrowatch.com> Message-ID: <1124428431.13219.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Ladislav, Thank you for the very quick response I really do appreciate it. Is it possible that you either add a note down the bottom to say that it is an old article and it may not be relevant anymore or it is there for historical reasons and it may not be relevant with current improvements. Again thank you for your speed in reply and an interesting read with very valid points. I look forward to reading more from you. Regards, Marc On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 12:42 +0800, Ladislav Bodnar wrote: > On Friday 19 August 2005 12:31, you wrote: > > While I appreciate the complaints relating to RPM a lot of the points > > you point out are valid however. Relating to the upgrading I believe > > that major in-roads have been made in relation to Fedora. > > That article was written over 3 years ago, so I don't think it is still > valid in this age of yum, apt-get, urpmi.... > > Thank you for your feedback :-) > > Ladislav From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Aug 19 05:36:34 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:36:34 +0300 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <1124377671.6540.7.camel@cutter> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> <1124127169.18963.35.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124377043.21186.328.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124377671.6540.7.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <43056FE2.5010703@nicubunu.ro> seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 00:57 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > >>Ok, what software can be used to manage art.fedoraproject.org ? >> >>One that allows user logins via the web, user upload, and nicely >>cataloguing it. It must not be a PHP solution, and Python-based >>solutions are favoured >> >>I'm sure we can make this happen, provided the above requirements are >>met > > > Diana Fong and I discussed this briefly. She was going to talk to some > of the art.gnome.org to see what they have. art.gnome.org is a custom designed solution made by its own people. Some alternative solutions are http://coppermine.sourceforge.net and http://gallery.sourceforge.net but I find those much less friendly and less suitable for our use compared with art.gnome.org -- nicu From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 05:52:37 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:52:37 -0400 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <43056FE2.5010703@nicubunu.ro> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> <1124127169.18963.35.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124377043.21186.328.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124377671.6540.7.camel@cutter> <43056FE2.5010703@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa7910508182252174c5676@mail.gmail.com> On 8/19/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Some alternative solutions are http://coppermine.sourceforge.net and > http://gallery.sourceforge.net but I find those much less friendly and > less suitable for our use compared with art.gnome.org know of anything out there thats not php based? I'm pretty sure a php based solution isn't going to be acceptable to the current admin of the fedoraproject hardware whose initials are seth vidal. -jef From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 14:01:00 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:01:00 -0400 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <604aa7910508182252174c5676@mail.gmail.com> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> <1124127169.18963.35.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124377043.21186.328.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124377671.6540.7.camel@cutter> <43056FE2.5010703@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910508182252174c5676@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05081907011285437c@mail.gmail.com> On 8/19/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > know of anything out there thats not php based? I'm pretty sure a php > based solution isn't going to be acceptable to the current admin of > the fedoraproject hardware whose initials are seth vidal. I've never used it but there's: http://pygallery.sourceforge.net/ Or we could do something like create a Flickr account and publish the rss feed to fp.org. --jeremy From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 14:13:52 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Aug 2005, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > I understand he's entitled to his opinion and I sorta appreciate it > however at what point does it stop :( It doesn't ever stop, Marc. Poorly-informed loudmouths don't shut up when presented with logic -- they just talk louder. So how do we deal with this? We deal with it by putting together a clear, simple message for every complaint that we hear, and repeating that message over and over. And by being patient, and by not taking it personally. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Aug 19 14:23:15 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:23:15 +0300 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <556f970a05081907011285437c@mail.gmail.com> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> <1124127169.18963.35.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124377043.21186.328.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124377671.6540.7.camel@cutter> <43056FE2.5010703@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910508182252174c5676@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05081907011285437c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4305EB53.1020906@nicubunu.ro> Jeremy Hogan wrote: > On 8/19/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >>know of anything out there thats not php based? I'm pretty sure a php >>based solution isn't going to be acceptable to the current admin of >>the fedoraproject hardware whose initials are seth vidal. > > > I've never used it but there's: > http://pygallery.sourceforge.net/ > > Or we could do something like create a Flickr account and publish the > rss feed to fp.org. For such a gallery to be really useful it should have some features like user submissions, ratings, comments, sort and search, otherwise for a static one we can just use the Wiki. And I'm afraid is hard to find something like this which is not made with php. The extreme solution would be to create a new gallery software (no, I don't volunteer for that) in whatever language is desired, this is not easy but has the advantage that it can act as a web interface for the proposed Background Channels (http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/blog/GNOME/background_channels) -- nicu From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 14:25:11 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:25:11 -0400 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <556f970a05081907011285437c@mail.gmail.com> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> <1124127169.18963.35.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124377043.21186.328.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124377671.6540.7.camel@cutter> <43056FE2.5010703@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910508182252174c5676@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05081907011285437c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105081907259406969@mail.gmail.com> On 8/19/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > I've never used it but there's: > http://pygallery.sourceforge.net/ I think might meet what I understand as seth's minimum requirements as a technology to look at for fedoraproject.org inclusion. The other question is of course is this actually useful enough as a solution. -jef From mattfrye at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 15:42:41 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:42:41 -0400 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05081908427b8b7a05@mail.gmail.com> On 8/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > ...and by not taking it personally. :) This should be basic training for Fedora *. This is fundamentally the most important lesson I can think of. It's one I had to learn, and that I hope many, many other people learn fast. MPF From hballal at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 20:12:47 2005 From: hballal at gmail.com (Hrishikesh Ballal) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:12:47 -0400 Subject: Wiki Screwup Message-ID: <87d5f0430508191312215873ae@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, I was on the wiki and looking at the RecentChanges page and my mouse screwed up? the page started "auto-scrolling" down as I hit the left mouse button key to stop it an by accident it was over the "revert" link on the Edit Group? I am sorry but it was totally unintentional. How can I over write my changes? .. can you cancel my changes? I am sorry about it.. Following are the details of the change? 89 2005-04-20 20:56:12 1480 ColinCharles josh boyer (jwb on irc) added I feel stupid doing it.. you can remove me off the EditGroup for doing it? Hrishi From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Aug 19 20:17:02 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:17:02 -0400 Subject: Wiki Screwup In-Reply-To: <87d5f0430508191312215873ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <87d5f0430508191312215873ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124482622.15939.39.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 16:12 -0400, Hrishikesh Ballal wrote: > Hi All, > I was on the wiki and looking at the RecentChanges page and my mouse > screwed up? the page started "auto-scrolling" down as I hit the left mouse > button key to stop it an by accident it was over the "revert" link on > the Edit Group? I am sorry but it was totally unintentional. How can I > over write my changes? .. can you cancel my changes? I am sorry about > it.. Following are the details of the change? > > 89 2005-04-20 20:56:12 1480 ColinCharles josh boyer (jwb on irc) added > > > I feel stupid doing it.. you can remove me off the EditGroup for doing it? It is fixed. I just reverted what you reverted. We all appreciate the honesty and can understand a mess up. Luckily the wiki catches it for us by keeping revision history for a long long time. :) -sv From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 22:47:36 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:47:36 -0700 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05081908427b8b7a05@mail.gmail.com> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f1eacdd05081908427b8b7a05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124491656.22190.27.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 11:42 -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > On 8/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > ...and by not taking it personally. :) > > This should be basic training for Fedora *. This is fundamentally the > most important lesson I can think of. It's one I had to learn, and > that I hope many, many other people learn fast. Thus is written the first rule of open source communities, which we can pass on in our mentoring relationship: "Thou mayest pour thy heart, soul, blood, sweat, and tears into your project, but never take lamer comments personally." - Karsten, still working on that one -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 22:52:37 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:52:37 -0700 Subject: RPM Article In-Reply-To: <1124428431.13219.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124425905.13219.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200508191242.50279.distro@distrowatch.com> <1124428431.13219.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124491957.22190.30.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 13:13 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Hi Ladislav, > > Thank you for the very quick response I really do appreciate it. Is it > possible that you either add a note down the bottom to say that it is an > old article and it may not be relevant anymore or it is there for > historical reasons and it may not be relevant with current improvements. There is now a canonical document you might find useful to link to: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ Yum is good, yum is great, but read some docs ... oops, too late - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 19 23:02:32 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:02:32 -0700 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <604aa79105081907259406969@mail.gmail.com> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> <1124127169.18963.35.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124377043.21186.328.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124377671.6540.7.camel@cutter> <43056FE2.5010703@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910508182252174c5676@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05081907011285437c@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105081907259406969@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124492552.22190.38.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 10:25 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/19/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > I've never used it but there's: > > http://pygallery.sourceforge.net/ > > I think might meet what I understand as seth's minimum requirements as > a technology to look at for fedoraproject.org inclusion. The other > question is of course is this actually useful enough as a solution. This is purely a marketeer-type response I am making, it ignores development practices and security. It's too bad that we can't take advantage of the wealth of PHP solutions available to us. For example, lots seems to be happening with MediaWiki ... the DocBook Wiki stuff is pretty full-featured ... Ok, I'm done. You can return to your regularly scheduled sanity. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Sat Aug 20 04:12:32 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 23:12:32 -0500 Subject: FedoraMyths (New wiki page) Message-ID: <4306ADB0.4040902@n-man.com> I have put up a new page on the wiki: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraMyths This is intended to be a point to fight common myths about Fedora, such as the nature of Red Hat's relationship with Fedora. If you have any myths that you often hear and would like to add, please feel free to do so. I think that this sort of thing is important to building the Fedora name. I know that I have heard quite a few things about Fedora that aren't true or are misguided. Some of these myths make it into press articles and other publications. Some of these myths are better-known than the truth, and that hurts the project in multiple ways. This is just one small step toward fighting those myths. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Sat Aug 20 09:26:19 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:26:19 +0800 (WST) Subject: RPM Article In-Reply-To: <1124491957.22190.30.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124425905.13219.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200508191242.50279.distro@distrowatch.com> <1124428431.13219.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124491957.22190.30.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <33276.202.72.163.232.1124529979.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> I had sent him that link already in a previous email. Rahul suggested I cc'ed the marketing list on the email in the next one so I did. He has that as a reference. -- Regards Marc > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ > > Yum is good, > yum is great, > but read some docs ... > oops, too late > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Aug 20 11:54:22 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:24:22 +0530 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >For those that haven't seen the post. >http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=73215 > >I would like to congratulate Rahul on remaining calm I'm not sure how >many valiums (typo possibly) you took but just reading it I was getting >angry at his constant criticisms which didn't entail offering any help. > >I understand he's entitled to his opinion and I sorta appreciate it >however at what point does it stop :( > Remember that many of the opinionated people have a lot of energy which means that you can convince them to be constructive critics or even voracious participants. Pay more attention to any valid criticism that you might getting and try to address that directly. So the action plan is pretty neat * Send feedback and suggestions to authors of outdated material pointed out there (done) * Myths page for correcting widely spread misinformation (done) * Show progress in the docs-list by * Contact the unofficial Fedora guide maintainer and ask him to cooperate with the uofficial Fedora FAQ maintainer to ensure cooperation (done) *Autobuild system and weekly reviews instead of stuff being hidden in the docs cvs. Actively call out for participants to show up their nice faces ( work in progress) * Make release notes more useful by making it easier for developers to mark stuff as release notes worthy (done) ? What are the major accomplishments of this list?. can we have a canonical page for that? What else? regards Rahul From stuart at elsn.org Sat Aug 20 13:39:48 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:39:48 +0100 Subject: FedoraMyths (New wiki page) In-Reply-To: <4306ADB0.4040902@n-man.com> References: <4306ADB0.4040902@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124545189.3196.114.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 23:12 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > I have put up a new page on the wiki: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraMyths > > This is intended to be a point to fight common myths about Fedora, such > as the nature of Red Hat's relationship with Fedora. If you have any > myths that you often hear and would like to add, please feel free to do so. I've added a section on the "software installation is hard/RPM sucks" thing, which is hopefully useful for dealing with the kind of bad info being discussed on the other thread. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Aug 20 14:00:37 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:00:37 -0400 Subject: Fedora Branding In-Reply-To: <1124492552.22190.38.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <43009BB7.5010900@redhat.com> <4300A76A.6000409@nicubunu.ro> <1124127169.18963.35.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124377043.21186.328.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1124377671.6540.7.camel@cutter> <43056FE2.5010703@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910508182252174c5676@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05081907011285437c@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105081907259406969@mail.gmail.com> <1124492552.22190.38.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124546437.23700.5.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 16:02 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 10:25 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On 8/19/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > > I've never used it but there's: > > > http://pygallery.sourceforge.net/ > > > > I think might meet what I understand as seth's minimum requirements as > > a technology to look at for fedoraproject.org inclusion. The other > > question is of course is this actually useful enough as a solution. > > This is purely a marketeer-type response I am making, it ignores > development practices and security. > > > It's too bad that we can't take advantage of the wealth of PHP solutions > available to us. For example, lots seems to be happening with > MediaWiki ... the DocBook Wiki stuff is pretty full-featured ... > > > Ok, I'm done. You can return to your regularly scheduled sanity. > The php solutions take advantage of you, too. As much fun as it is to have a box rooted and spend a couple of days reinstalling and fixing it, I think I'll take as many steps as I can to prevent it. bluntly: php apps and the php language/libs are FREQUENTLY insecure. -sv From luya at jpopmail.com Sat Aug 20 17:31:57 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:31:57 -0800 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 14, Issue 24 Message-ID: <20050820173157.13525CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Aug 20 17:35:09 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:05:09 +0530 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 14, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: <20050820173157.13525CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050820173157.13525CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <430769CD.4010405@redhat.com> Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: >I remember Warren Togami talked about fedorausers.org during LinuxWorld San >Francisco 2005. I wonder if we can just improve that site in a combination >of fedorafaq.org and Fedora Guide. > > Here is the deal. fedorausers.org is not formally launched yet. It is supposed to be an extension of Fedorafaq.org with not so frequently asked questions. As I told in this before Fedora guide and Fedora FAQ authors are already communicating about colloboration. I will post more details when I have them regards Rahul PS: Please change the subject when you are posting from a digest From luya at jpopmail.com Sat Aug 20 17:55:17 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:55:17 -0800 Subject: fedora-extras-list Digest, Vol 9, Issue 81 Message-ID: <20050820175517.EE3CD2B2B86@ws5-7.us4.outblaze.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From luya at jpopmail.com Sat Aug 20 17:58:44 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:58:44 -0800 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 14, Issue 24 Message-ID: <20050820175844.854C47B49F@ws5-10.us4.outblaze.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Sat Aug 20 18:07:33 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:07:33 -0700 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth Message-ID: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> I read the Fedora Myths page today and thought the legal issues entry was a bit on the conservative side. I'd like to see it be a little more explicit about the situation: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraMyths#head-37a0662e90f2aaad2607986eb8fad7b80da09982 I would like to change this paragraph: For example, Fedora includes several media players that support a wide range of formats, but not does not supply plug-ins for media formats that are restricted by patent licenses or legislation. To this: For example, Fedora includes several media players that support a wide range of free and open formats but none that depend on formats that are restricted by patent licenses or legislation. The Fedora project realizes that many of our users are legally allowed to use these proprietary codecs so we package media players that are extensible via plugins. This allows third parties that are legally allowed to distribute the codecs to make them available as plugin packages that will work with our media players. Does this cross the line to contributory infringement? It doesn't mention any specific places a person can download from. It covers users granted licenses by the owning companies as well as users in countries where the patents are not valid. It doesn't encourage anyone to do anything that is illegal; only points out that plugin packages are available on the internet for those who have a right to use them. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Aug 20 18:12:42 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:42:42 +0530 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> Hi > >Does this cross the line to contributory infringement? It doesn't >mention any specific places a person can download from. It covers users >granted licenses by the owning companies as well as users in countries >where the patents are not valid. It doesn't encourage anyone to do >anything that is illegal; only points out that plugin packages are >available on the internet for those who have a right to use them. > >-Toshio > Do you have wiki access, If so you can edit the wiki yourself. Link to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems which clarifies the status regards Rahul From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Sat Aug 20 18:33:05 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:33:05 -0700 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 23:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Do you have wiki access, If so you can edit the wiki yourself. Link to > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems which clarifies the status Yep. I can commit the change. I just wanted to see if anyone thought the revision crossed any legal boundaries before doing so. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Aug 20 18:49:26 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:19:26 +0530 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 23:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Do you have wiki access, If so you can edit the wiki yourself. Link to >>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems which clarifies the status >> >> > >Yep. I can commit the change. I just wanted to see if anyone thought >the revision crossed any legal boundaries before doing so. > >-Toshio > > That page already explains everything in a legally safe now. Is there anything left to add there? . Just linking seems to be less ambiguous to me regards Rahul From stuart at elsn.org Sat Aug 20 18:49:51 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:49:51 +0100 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1124563791.3196.128.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 11:33 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 23:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Do you have wiki access, If so you can edit the wiki yourself. Link to > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems which clarifies the status > > Yep. I can commit the change. I just wanted to see if anyone thought > the revision crossed any legal boundaries before doing so. I wrote that section, and one draft had something like "Third-party repositories independently provide restricted software for users in jurisdictions where the legal issues noted [in ForbiddenItems] do not apply". Didn't commit it because I wasn't sure whether this would going too far for Red Hat legal either. Personally I would think that it's OK, because we haven't expressed an opinion or given any help to people to find the relevant software, but IANAL. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From luya at jpopmail.com Sat Aug 20 21:32:46 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:32:46 -0800 Subject: About editing Fedoraproject Wiki Message-ID: <20050820213246.6EDCC7B49F@ws5-10.us4.outblaze.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Sat Aug 20 22:26:43 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:26:43 -0700 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 00:19 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > >On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 23:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > > >>Do you have wiki access, If so you can edit the wiki yourself. Link to > >>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems which clarifies the status > >> > >> > > > >Yep. I can commit the change. I just wanted to see if anyone thought > >the revision crossed any legal boundaries before doing so. > > > >-Toshio > > > > > That page already explains everything in a legally safe now. Is there > anything left to add there? . Just linking seems to be less ambiguous to me It needs to explan that there are reasonably easy fixes to get full multimedia. The myth is that Fedora is not suitable in a desktop environment because it cannot do multimedia. The Facts are: 1) We don't include them for legal reasons (this is already there, incl. the link to ForbiddenItems). 2) We are sympathetic to the user's frustration and have done what we can to help 3) There is a reasonably easy solution for users who need this capability. We don't yet address points 2 and 3. If you point someone to this page in order to read the legal section they currently get the impression that we won't ship for legal reasons *so* Fedora will always be second rate in terms of multimedia. I want to expand on that so they leave feeling that Fedora won't ship legally encumbered code *but* we've done our best to enable users to get the multimedia experience they expect. If their gripe is that they can't play mp3s, only giving an explanation of why is telling them "Tough luck" which is a pretty unfriendly response. An telling why plus information that we've thought about the problem and there are solutions is "We hate the situation too but we're doing what we can to not get sued and provide you with the multimedia capabilities you desire." I think my addition makes this second point. If no one thinks it's problematic, I'll commit it. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Aug 20 22:32:05 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:02:05 +0530 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4307AF65.3080901@redhat.com> Hi >It needs to explan that there are reasonably easy fixes to get full >multimedia. The myth is that Fedora is not suitable in a desktop >environment because it cannot do multimedia. The Facts are: 1) We don't >include them for legal reasons (this is already there, incl. the link to >ForbiddenItems). 2) We are sympathetic to the user's frustration and >have done what we can to help 3) There is a reasonably easy solution for >users who need this capability. We don't yet address points 2 and 3. > > are you sure?. http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/errata/#sn-why-no-mp3 links to fedorafaq.org which does answer common user queries. regards Rahul From nman64 at n-man.com Sat Aug 20 22:37:54 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:37:54 -0500 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 00:19 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 23:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Do you have wiki access, If so you can edit the wiki yourself. Link to >>>>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems which clarifies the status >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Yep. I can commit the change. I just wanted to see if anyone thought >>>the revision crossed any legal boundaries before doing so. >>> >>>-Toshio >>> >>> >>> >>> >>That page already explains everything in a legally safe now. Is there >>anything left to add there? . Just linking seems to be less ambiguous to me >> >> > >It needs to explan that there are reasonably easy fixes to get full >multimedia. The myth is that Fedora is not suitable in a desktop >environment because it cannot do multimedia. The Facts are: 1) We don't >include them for legal reasons (this is already there, incl. the link to >ForbiddenItems). 2) We are sympathetic to the user's frustration and >have done what we can to help 3) There is a reasonably easy solution for >users who need this capability. We don't yet address points 2 and 3. > >If you point someone to this page in order to read the legal section >they currently get the impression that we won't ship for legal reasons >*so* Fedora will always be second rate in terms of multimedia. I want >to expand on that so they leave feeling that Fedora won't ship legally >encumbered code *but* we've done our best to enable users to get the >multimedia experience they expect. > >If their gripe is that they can't play mp3s, only giving an explanation >of why is telling them "Tough luck" which is a pretty unfriendly >response. An telling why plus information that we've thought about the >problem and there are solutions is "We hate the situation too but we're >doing what we can to not get sued and provide you with the multimedia >capabilities you desire." > >I think my addition makes this second point. If no one thinks it's >problematic, I'll commit it. > >-Toshio > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > I've made a few small changes. Check it out now and see if you feel it does a better job. I still want to avoid duplicating information presented on the ForbiddenItems page, but I can certainly agree with your points. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Aug 20 22:38:57 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:38:57 -0400 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <4307AF65.3080901@redhat.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307AF65.3080901@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910508201538192c7906@mail.gmail.com> On 8/20/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > are you sure?. Are we sure we are we sympathetic? I waffle on the answer to that personally. Sometimes I'm personally very sympathetic to the plight of users who want to start on the path but have practical constraints that keep them using a perfectly open set of technologies. Sometimes I just want to tell everyone to suck it up and to show some backbone and choose to give up their oh-so-very-important proprietary encoded entertainment and media. Really depends on the ratio of caffiene to alcohol in my bloodstream. -jef From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Sat Aug 20 23:03:29 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:03:29 -0700 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124579009.11844.68.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 17:37 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > >If their gripe is that they can't play mp3s, only giving an explanation > >of why is telling them "Tough luck" which is a pretty unfriendly > >response. An telling why plus information that we've thought about the > >problem and there are solutions is "We hate the situation too but we're > >doing what we can to not get sued and provide you with the multimedia > >capabilities you desire." > > > >I think my addition makes this second point. If no one thinks it's > >problematic, I'll commit it. > > > I've made a few small changes. Check it out now and see if you feel it > does a better job. I still want to avoid duplicating information > presented on the ForbiddenItems page, but I can certainly agree with > your points. > Much better. I changed the last couple lines to mention ForbiddenItems has ideas that may aid in finding third-party plugins (while continuing to plug the OSS alternatives). See if you agree with the change. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Sat Aug 20 23:14:51 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:14:51 -0700 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <604aa7910508201538192c7906@mail.gmail.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307AF65.3080901@redhat.com> <604aa7910508201538192c7906@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124579692.11844.79.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 18:38 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/20/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > are you sure?. > > Are we sure we are we sympathetic? I waffle on the answer to that > personally. Sometimes I'm personally very sympathetic to the plight of > users who want to start on the path but have practical constraints > that keep them using a perfectly open set of technologies. Sometimes I > just want to tell everyone to suck it up and to show some backbone and > choose to give up their oh-so-very-important proprietary encoded > entertainment and media. Really depends on the ratio of caffiene to > alcohol in my bloodstream. Even if we aren't sympathetic to using closed formats we should be sympathetic to people whose data has to be converted. Unfortunately we can no more include an mp3=>ogg converter then we can an mp3 player. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Aug 21 04:54:51 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:54:51 -0500 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> Message-ID: <4308091B.2060208@n-man.com> The only real problem with those new changes is that ForbiddenItems does not and will not point users to other third-party plugins. The technologies it refers to are part of Fedora Core and Extras, and it will not point to sources for proprietary plugins. It only makes a vague reference to using Google. That last bit of your changes will only serve to mislead users who may already be frustrated. Because of this, I will remove that small bit. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Aug 21 06:53:12 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:53:12 -0500 Subject: Free Java: Sun Struggles to Come to Terms with Open Source Message-ID: <430824D8.2060405@n-man.com> Reference: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1850616,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K0000616 In your recent article regarding open-sourcing Java, you stated that many distributions, including Fedora, lack support for Java as a development language and runtime environment. This is actually not the case. Fedora Core 4 includes support for the GCJ Java implementation. This is an entirely open-source Java compiler and runtime implementation. Although it is not feature-complete when compared to Sun's current offerings, it is providing an alternative for Sun's Java for many purposes with Fedora. As progress continues on the GCJ implementation, Fedora users can enjoy being among the first to have a pre-installed, open-source alternative to Sun's Java. It would be much appreciated if you would place a note about this in your article. Thank you. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Sun Aug 21 08:03:10 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:03:10 -0700 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <4308091B.2060208@n-man.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> <4308091B.2060208@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124611390.11844.89.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 23:54 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > The only real problem with those new changes is that ForbiddenItems does > not and will not point users to other third-party plugins. The > technologies it refers to are part of Fedora Core and Extras, and it > will not point to sources for proprietary plugins. It only makes a > vague reference to using Google. That last bit of your changes will > only serve to mislead users who may already be frustrated. Because of > this, I will remove that small bit. There's both the bit about google and the bit about checking fedorafaq.org. IMHO we have to address the fact that people may need to use a specific format rather than an alternate. To do that we have to let them know that they can install plugins from third parties to make that happen. This can either be through the methods suggested at the bottom of ForbiddenItems (indirect and possibly frustrating but it gets people to scan through the list of legal problems and their OSS alternatives on their way to a solution) or by placing some portion of that information directly in FedoraMyths (such as my original suggestion. Can you come up with some variant of that which satisfies your desire to not duplicate information on ForbiddenItems?) -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Aug 21 08:31:16 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 03:31:16 -0500 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <1124611390.11844.89.camel@localhost> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> <4308091B.2060208@n-man.com> <1124611390.11844.89.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <43083BD4.3080307@n-man.com> Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 23:54 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > >>The only real problem with those new changes is that ForbiddenItems does >>not and will not point users to other third-party plugins. The >>technologies it refers to are part of Fedora Core and Extras, and it >>will not point to sources for proprietary plugins. It only makes a >>vague reference to using Google. That last bit of your changes will >>only serve to mislead users who may already be frustrated. Because of >>this, I will remove that small bit. >> >> > >There's both the bit about google and the bit about checking >fedorafaq.org. IMHO we have to address the fact that people may need to >use a specific format rather than an alternate. To do that we have to >let them know that they can install plugins from third parties to make >that happen. This can either be through the methods suggested at the >bottom of ForbiddenItems (indirect and possibly frustrating but it gets >people to scan through the list of legal problems and their OSS >alternatives on their way to a solution) or by placing some portion of >that information directly in FedoraMyths (such as my original >suggestion. Can you come up with some variant of that which satisfies >your desire to not duplicate information on ForbiddenItems?) > >-Toshio > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > I fail to see what you say we lack. We specify very specific alternative formats on the ForbiddenItems page. These are formats that are already supported by the media players in Fedora Core. There is no need for users to install third-party plugins in order to gain support for these formats. If a person needs a format not currently supported by the programs in Core, they are likely seeking proprietary formats, which we will not point them to. The information currently on the wiki fully expresses the situation and cannot be expanded much more without potentialy creating legal concerns. The information on the ForbiddenItems page specifies formats that people can use. It is beyond the scope of these wiki documents to detail how a user can make use of the alternative formats. If you would like to write a how-to for users who are interested in using these alternative formats, you can do so. We will not direct users on how to use the proprietary formats or how to convert files from those formats to the alternatives, nor will we tell them how to add support for those formats, as doing so may violate the laws that govern Fedora and Red Hat. If you wish to write a guide for the alternates, you must keep this in mind. I would strongly encourage you to work with someone on the Docs Project if you wish to do this. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Aug 21 08:41:42 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 03:41:42 -0500 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <43083BD4.3080307@n-man.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> <4308091B.2060208@n-man.com> <1124611390.11844.89.camel@localhost> <43083BD4.3080307@n-man.com> Message-ID: <43083E46.4080301@n-man.com> Patrick Barnes wrote: >Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > >>On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 23:54 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>The only real problem with those new changes is that ForbiddenItems does >>>not and will not point users to other third-party plugins. The >>>technologies it refers to are part of Fedora Core and Extras, and it >>>will not point to sources for proprietary plugins. It only makes a >>>vague reference to using Google. That last bit of your changes will >>>only serve to mislead users who may already be frustrated. Because of >>>this, I will remove that small bit. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>There's both the bit about google and the bit about checking >>fedorafaq.org. IMHO we have to address the fact that people may need to >>use a specific format rather than an alternate. To do that we have to >>let them know that they can install plugins from third parties to make >>that happen. This can either be through the methods suggested at the >>bottom of ForbiddenItems (indirect and possibly frustrating but it gets >>people to scan through the list of legal problems and their OSS >>alternatives on their way to a solution) or by placing some portion of >>that information directly in FedoraMyths (such as my original >>suggestion. Can you come up with some variant of that which satisfies >>your desire to not duplicate information on ForbiddenItems?) >> >>-Toshio >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>-- >>Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >>Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list >> >> >> >I fail to see what you say we lack. We specify very specific >alternative formats on the ForbiddenItems page. These are formats that >are already supported by the media players in Fedora Core. There is no >need for users to install third-party plugins in order to gain support >for these formats. If a person needs a format not currently supported >by the programs in Core, they are likely seeking proprietary formats, >which we will not point them to. The information currently on the wiki >fully expresses the situation and cannot be expanded much more without >potentialy creating legal concerns. The information on the >ForbiddenItems page specifies formats that people can use. It is beyond >the scope of these wiki documents to detail how a user can make use of >the alternative formats. If you would like to write a how-to for users >who are interested in using these alternative formats, you can do so. >We will not direct users on how to use the proprietary formats or how to >convert files from those formats to the alternatives, nor will we tell >them how to add support for those formats, as doing so may violate the >laws that govern Fedora and Red Hat. If you wish to write a guide for >the alternates, you must keep this in mind. I would strongly encourage >you to work with someone on the Docs Project if you wish to do this. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > I thought I might add that the current version of the FedoraMyths page does address that the programs can be extended with third-party plugins, to about the fullest extent it can without concerns: "Thanks to the extensibility of these media players, if there are plugins for additional formats that are legal in your jurisdiction, you may install them separately." We really can't go into detail beyond that without creating risks. I know that this may not seem like an ideal solution, especially to users outside of the United States, but this is really all we can do. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From linux at glossolalie.org Sun Aug 21 09:26:18 2005 From: linux at glossolalie.org (Thierry Sayegh) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:26:18 +0100 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <604aa7910508201538192c7906@mail.gmail.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307AF65.3080901@redhat.com> <604aa7910508201538192c7906@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <430848BA.4010109@glossolalie.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/20/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >>are you sure?. > > > Are we sure we are we sympathetic? I waffle on the answer to that > personally. Sometimes I'm personally very sympathetic to the plight of > users who want to start on the path but have practical constraints > that keep them using a perfectly open set of technologies. Sometimes I > just want to tell everyone to suck it up and to show some backbone and > choose to give up their oh-so-very-important proprietary encoded > entertainment and media. Really depends on the ratio of caffiene to > alcohol in my bloodstream. > > -jef > You need to consider the user that is willing to move towards these open sets of technology but does not have the knowledge as-yet. If you block him/her from using his/her current files, you will drive the said user away. where is good will? How do you convert them? It's not conversion if you give them a box and tell them they won't be able to use these gazillions of music files they love so much. Giving them the ability to use these 'old' files and to create new ones with open toolsets, this is the challenge. Thierry From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Sun Aug 21 09:59:00 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:59:00 -0700 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <43083E46.4080301@n-man.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> <4308091B.2060208@n-man.com> <1124611390.11844.89.camel@localhost> <43083BD4.3080307@n-man.com> <43083E46.4080301@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124618340.26054.6.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 03:41 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > I thought I might add that the current version of the FedoraMyths page > does address that the programs can be extended with third-party plugins, > to about the fullest extent it can without concerns: > > "Thanks to the extensibility of these media players, if there are > plugins for additional formats that are legal in your jurisdiction, you > may install them separately." > Ah -- I don't know how but I missed that sentence when I read the updated version. Thanks. > We really can't go into detail beyond that without creating risks. I > know that this may not seem like an ideal solution, especially to users > outside of the United States, but this is really all we can do. The ForbiddenItems page is much more explicit: Of course, the logical followup is: But I want to get foo and do bar, how can I do one of the items listed above? The unofficial [WWW]http://fedorafaq.org provides useful answers on commonly asked questions. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From lxmaier at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 15:10:53 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:10:53 +0200 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <430848BA.4010109@glossolalie.org> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307AF65.3080901@redhat.com> <604aa7910508201538192c7906@mail.gmail.com> <430848BA.4010109@glossolalie.org> Message-ID: <7f617d2705082108101f9064c0@mail.gmail.com> On 8/21/05, Thierry Sayegh wrote: > You need to consider the user that is willing to move towards these open > sets of technology but does not have the knowledge as-yet. > If you block him/her from using his/her current files, you will drive > the said user away. where is good will? How do you convert them? True. This is why we can point to pages that will help them, and to communities not directily associated with us which can provide them with proprietary plugins. It does suck big time not to be able to listen to OGG files using my Palm, and I think instead of concentrating on stuff we cannot influence (such as existing patents) we should become more active in the area of spreading the open formats. Like sit down with folks at Real, and get them to implement OGG codec into RealOne player by default. When barriers like this will fall, and when MP3 will not be the only overwhelmingly supported media format, we will not HAVE to worry about this stuff anymore. > It's not conversion if you give them a box and tell them they won't be > able to use these gazillions of music files they love so much. > Giving them the ability to use these 'old' files and to create new ones > with open toolsets, this is the challenge. It is a great challenge indeed. Oh well, you can't have it all at once. But if instead of concentrating on ways to circumvent regulations for our users we spend the same energy on pushing the support open media formats in all poplular media players by default, such as RealPlayer, or iPod, etc.--we will eventually achieve more AND make another step towards freeing the culture. a -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From jspaleta at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 16:46:21 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:46:21 -0400 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <1124618340.26054.6.camel@localhost> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> <4308091B.2060208@n-man.com> <1124611390.11844.89.camel@localhost> <43083BD4.3080307@n-man.com> <43083E46.4080301@n-man.com> <1124618340.26054.6.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <604aa79105082109464674bace@mail.gmail.com> On 8/21/05, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > The ForbiddenItems page is much more explicit: > Of course, the logical followup is: But I want to get foo and do bar, > how can I do one of the items listed above? > > The unofficial [WWW]http://fedorafaq.org provides useful answers on > commonly asked questions. You can reference fedorafaq.org and call it a place to find answers for common questions.. but you can not explictly state which questions it answers. Thats the line. How about instead of trying to re-interpret or expand on what the forbiddenitems text as written, we either site the link or quote it verbatim and leave it at that. Any expansion beyond the exact text as written in the forbiddenitem page is going to need legal review. If the text of the forbiddenitems page has room for improvement we should inmprove the text on that page and use it as the cananoical explanation in all other communication mediums. -jef From linux at glossolalie.org Sun Aug 21 16:49:26 2005 From: linux at glossolalie.org (Thierry Sayegh) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:49:26 +0100 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <7f617d2705082108101f9064c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307AF65.3080901@redhat.com> <604aa7910508201538192c7906@mail.gmail.com> <430848BA.4010109@glossolalie.org> <7f617d2705082108101f9064c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4308B096.4010906@glossolalie.org> Alex Maier wrote: > > Like sit down with folks at Real, and get them to implement OGG codec > into RealOne player by default. > > When barriers like this will fall, and when MP3 will not be the only > overwhelmingly supported media format, we will not HAVE to worry about > this stuff anymore. +1 > It is a great challenge indeed. Oh well, you can't have it all at once. I live in a dream.... > But if instead of concentrating on ways to circumvent regulations for > our users we spend the same energy on pushing the support open media > formats in all poplular media players by default, such as RealPlayer, > or iPod, etc.--we will eventually achieve more AND make another step > towards freeing the culture. > > a +1 T From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Mon Aug 22 04:36:24 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:36:24 -0700 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082109464674bace@mail.gmail.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> <4308091B.2060208@n-man.com> <1124611390.11844.89.camel@localhost> <43083BD4.3080307@n-man.com> <43083E46.4080301@n-man.com> <1124618340.26054.6.camel@localhost> <604aa79105082109464674bace@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124685384.26054.12.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 12:46 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/21/05, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > The ForbiddenItems page is much more explicit: > > Of course, the logical followup is: But I want to get foo and do bar, > > how can I do one of the items listed above? > > > > The unofficial [WWW]http://fedorafaq.org provides useful answers on > > commonly asked questions. > > You can reference fedorafaq.org and call it a place to find answers > for common questions.. but you can not explictly state which questions > it answers. Thats the line. > If this wording passed legal, I'm not going to try to find fault with it :-) > How about instead of trying to re-interpret or expand on what the > forbiddenitems text as written, we either site the link or quote it > verbatim and leave it at that. Any expansion beyond the exact text as > written in the forbiddenitem page is going to need legal review. If > the text of the forbiddenitems page has room for improvement we should > inmprove the text on that page and use it as the cananoical > explanation in all other communication mediums. > That would be excellent. I would agree with either of those approaches. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Aug 22 06:29:30 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:29:30 -0500 Subject: Logo -- simple, possibly version, repository and internationally-friendly? Message-ID: <1124692170.4507.38.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Just joined after finding the logo page here: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas I have to say, the "periodic table of elements" is the most ideal IMHO. I'll break it down for these reasons, with my noted modifications: 1. Simple -- simple is good (especially for #4) NOTE: I like the slight gradient/3D Diana Fong added 2. Version - version in the corner 3. Repository - use a large letter for the repository type (at least in English -- users of other Latin character set languages should sound off) E.g., "C" for Core, "E" for Extras, "L" for Legacy, with the full name underneath ("Fedora Core", "Fedora Extras", "Fedora Legacy"). We could even have "3" to _reference_ 3rd parties (although I assume it wouldn't be for their use under the official trademark guidelines) 4. Internationally? - easy modified into other languages? I think the simple design really makes it easy to make it international without radically changing the same, layout, etc... Being an ignorant US American that only speaks English (and poorly at that), I try to be conscience of these things. Lastly, and a possible legal consideration: Since it's modeled after an entry in the periodic table of elements, it might be immune to some entity claiming likeness, correct? Disclaimer: IANAL -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 07:20:52 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:20:52 -0700 Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <43083BD4.3080307@n-man.com> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> <4307729A.8000208@redhat.com> <1124562785.11844.32.camel@localhost> <43077B36.2090607@redhat.com> <1124576804.11844.53.camel@localhost> <4307B0C2.7040105@n-man.com> <4308091B.2060208@n-man.com> <1124611390.11844.89.camel@localhost> <43083BD4.3080307@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124695253.5414.11.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 03:31 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > If you wish to write a guide for > the alternates, you must keep this in mind. I would strongly encourage > you to work with someone on the Docs Project if you wish to do this. Formal Fedora documentation is only about what ships in Fedora, regardless of legal obstacles. Ask me again in a few years about documenting things outside of Core and Extras, once we have all the good stuff included. How about this as a non-solution? Toshio can write up an explanation of how media players work with plug-ins, and post that as a Wiki page. Nothing explicit about third-parties and patents, just that it is extensible and how it works/what to look for. This solves the problem of trying to show users what their tools can do. If they want to use that tool for something illegal, such as playing music too loudly after local quiet hours are enforced ... Perhaps somewhere in FedoraMyths there could be a link from "supported players" to this page. Standard useful linking to useful information. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Aug 22 08:03:27 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:03:27 -0500 Subject: Logo -- simple, possibly version, repository and internationally-friendly? (examples) In-Reply-To: <1124692170.4507.38.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <1124692170.4507.38.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1124697807.4507.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 01:29 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > E.g., "C" for Core, "E" for Extras, "L" for Legacy, with the full name > underneath ("Fedora Core", "Fedora Extras", "Fedora Legacy"). We could > even have "3" to _reference_ 3rd parties (although I assume it wouldn't > be for their use under the official trademark guidelines) Okay, here are my examples (rather poor job, I'm not a graphic artist): 128x128: http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/fedora_bg2_128_ver_core.jpg http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/fedora_bg2_128_ver_extras.jpg http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/fedora_bg2_128_ver_foundation.jpg http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/fedora_bg2_128_ver_legacy.jpg 64x64: http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/fedora_bg2_64_ver_core.jpg http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/fedora_bg2_64_ver_extras.jpg http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/fedora_bg2_64_ver_foundation.jpg http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/fedora_bg2_64_ver_legacy.jpg -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From gdk at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 11:44:09 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Remember that many of the opinionated people have a lot of energy which > means that you can convince them to be constructive critics or even > voracious participants. Pay more attention to any valid criticism that > you might getting and try to address that directly. So the action plan > is pretty neat This is incredibly important for all of us to keep in mind. Marketing Fedora is more than just telling everyone "Fedora is wicked cool, use it." It's also about creating Wild Raving Lunatic Fedora Supporters -- and one of the surest ways to do that is to start with a Wild Raving Lunatic. :) The passion of open source advocates is sometimes a pain in the ass, but it can be turned to *tremendous* advantage. And as Rahul notes, one of the best ways to do it is to find the valid criticisms, acknowledge them, and fix them. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From gdk at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 11:55:11 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wording of Legal Issues myth In-Reply-To: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> References: <1124561254.11844.29.camel@localhost> Message-ID: I'm in favor of this change. Go ahead and make it. And no, pointing out that it's possible to infringe does not count in any way as contributory infringement. We worry more about something like this: "for lots of great software, go to THIS COOL SITE." Which *is* contributory infringement, if we know that THIS COOL SITE has infringing code. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Sat, 20 Aug 2005, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > I read the Fedora Myths page today and thought the legal issues entry > was a bit on the conservative side. I'd like to see it be a little more > explicit about the situation: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraMyths#head-37a0662e90f2aaad2607986eb8fad7b80da09982 > > I would like to change this paragraph: > For example, Fedora includes several media players that support a wide > range of formats, but not does not supply plug-ins for media formats > that are restricted by patent licenses or legislation. > > To this: > For example, Fedora includes several media players that support a > wide range of free and open formats but none that depend on formats > that are restricted by patent licenses or legislation. The Fedora > project realizes that many of our users are legally allowed to use > these proprietary codecs so we package media players that are > extensible via plugins. This allows third parties that are legally > allowed to distribute the codecs to make them available as plugin > packages that will work with our media players. > > Does this cross the line to contributory infringement? It doesn't > mention any specific places a person can download from. It covers users > granted licenses by the owning companies as well as users in countries > where the patents are not valid. It doesn't encourage anyone to do > anything that is illegal; only points out that plugin packages are > available on the internet for those who have a right to use them. > > -Toshio > From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 12:14:18 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:44:18 +0530 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4309C19A.8000507@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >On Sat, 20 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > >>Remember that many of the opinionated people have a lot of energy which >>means that you can convince them to be constructive critics or even >>voracious participants. Pay more attention to any valid criticism that >>you might getting and try to address that directly. So the action plan >>is pretty neat >> >> > >This is incredibly important for all of us to keep in mind. > >Marketing Fedora is more than just telling everyone "Fedora is wicked >cool, use it." It's also about creating Wild Raving Lunatic Fedora >Supporters -- and one of the surest ways to do that is to start with a >Wild Raving Lunatic. :) > >The passion of open source advocates is sometimes a pain in the ass, but >it can be turned to *tremendous* advantage. And as Rahul notes, one of >the best ways to do it is to find the valid criticisms, acknowledge them, >and fix them. > >--g > While we are at it, let me bring in some good news. Andrew Hudson alias Andy who is the co-author of Fedora 4 Unleashed and the reviewer of Fedora Core 4 in Linux format magazine and has somehow read my request to have a copy of the review in the response to a Fedora forum posting that was pointed out earlier has contacted me off list and asked whether I would want a copy. Of course, I promptly said yes and got a PDF soon enough. (I am not allowed to redistribute in a public website without permission. Interested community marketing members can get a copy on request offline) and also expressed his interest to participate in the Fedora Docs project after clarifying some details from Sams publishing. I am reading through the interesting review now and will respond back to him and this list in detail later. regards Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 14:35:49 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:35:49 -0400 Subject: Interesting online locations to buy or listen to ogg vorbis or flac.. legally Message-ID: <604aa79105082207356e955487@mail.gmail.com> Moving discussion from the -devel-list... On 8/22/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > > > I'd argue, however, that "positive propaganda" is the right > > strategy here too: if RH (and much of the OS community) takes the > > principled stand of providing a free media stack, it ought to put a > > little bit of energy into promoting free media formats -- for > > instance, it would be nice to see a web site promoting the Ogg Vorbis > > streams that are out there, just as there are sites promoting the SBR > > heresy... > > > > http://www.tuner2.com/ > > > That does seem like a good idea to me. If you got other areas that we > can improve the the promotion of free media formats, do post to the > fedora-marketing list. So to get a good start at promoting open formats how about we make an exhaustive list of websites which are either offering open format streams or open format files for purchase. My offering to such a list are: http://www.mindawn.com/ ogg and flac music to purchase http://www.telltaleweekly.org/ audiobooks in mp3/aac AND ogg Anyone else know of any other interesting places to get ogg vorbis legally? -jef"legally interesting theora content would be a boon as well"spaleta From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 14:40:56 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:10:56 +0530 Subject: Interesting online locations to buy or listen to ogg vorbis or flac.. legally In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082207356e955487@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082207356e955487@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4309E3F8.3030007@redhat.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: >Moving discussion from the -devel-list... > >On 8/22/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Hi >> >> >> >>> I'd argue, however, that "positive propaganda" is the right >>>strategy here too: if RH (and much of the OS community) takes the >>>principled stand of providing a free media stack, it ought to put a >>>little bit of energy into promoting free media formats -- for >>>instance, it would be nice to see a web site promoting the Ogg Vorbis >>>streams that are out there, just as there are sites promoting the SBR >>>heresy... >>> >>>http://www.tuner2.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>That does seem like a good idea to me. If you got other areas that we >>can improve the the promotion of free media formats, do post to the >>fedora-marketing list. >> >> > >So to get a good start at promoting open formats how about we make an >exhaustive list of websites which are either offering open format >streams or open format files for purchase. > >My offering to such a list are: > >http://www.mindawn.com/ ogg and flac music to purchase >http://www.telltaleweekly.org/ audiobooks in mp3/aac AND ogg > >Anyone else know of any other interesting places to get ogg vorbis legally? > > It doesnt really stop there. Ogg music stations. Creative commons licensed stuff. Gaming cards that dont require a proprietary driver. Wireless drivers that are known to work nicely with mainline kernel support. Anything at all that helps us promote the use of Free and open source software and help people stay away from the "Forbidden Items" should be considered. Lets talk about them all regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Aug 22 14:46:39 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting online locations to buy or listen to ogg vorbis or flac.. legally In-Reply-To: <4309E3F8.3030007@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050822144639.38277.qmail@web34103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Gaming cards that dont require a proprietary driver. *COUGH*IP-free pipedream*COUGH* ;-> > Wireless drivers that are known to work nicely with > mainline kernel support. *COUGH*FCC-free pipedream*COUGH* ;-> -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 22 14:54:00 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:24:00 +0530 Subject: Interesting online locations to buy or listen to ogg vorbis or flac.. legally In-Reply-To: <20050822144639.38277.qmail@web34103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050822144639.38277.qmail@web34103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4309E708.5010802@redhat.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Gaming cards that dont require a proprietary driver. >> >> > >*COUGH*IP-free pipedream*COUGH* ;-> > > Well I dont know much about this but I heard Radeon 9200 works well with 2d and 3d acceleration. There might several others. > > >>Wireless drivers that are known to work nicely with >>mainline kernel support. >> >> > >*COUGH*FCC-free pipedream*COUGH* ;-> > > > http://www.redhat.com/magazine/003jan05/features/networkmanager/. See the section on picking a good card. regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Aug 22 15:04:20 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting online locations to buy or listen to ogg vorbis or flac.. legally In-Reply-To: <4309E708.5010802@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050822150420.61319.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Well I dont know much about this but I heard Radeon 9200 > works well with 2d and 3d acceleration. There might several > others. The Radeon 9200 is a RV280. ATI cut off the specs as of Rx3##. Sure, you might be able to get the old features to run. But ATI is in the same boat as nVidia and Matrox on 3D (and even more so on 2D). 3D is an IP landmine. nVidia has been great for 2D though. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Aug 22 15:09:03 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... Message-ID: <20050822150903.64329.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A colleague of mine (Brian Ashe) whipped up this one: http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/Fcore.jpg I kinda like his [F3,] Fc, Fe, Ff, Fl, etc... nomenclature more. I think it looks better, at least for English/Latin character sets. BTW, definitely think we should stick with the 256x256 title as the proof/original. We can then scale it down to 128 and 64, possibly 32 and 16 for icons. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Tue Aug 23 01:09:19 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:09:19 +0800 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <20050822150903.64329.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050822150903.64329.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1124759359.16966.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> I quite like it. Something simple seems to do it for me personally. Good work. Marc On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 08:09 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > A colleague of mine (Brian Ashe) whipped up this one: > http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/Fcore.jpg > > I kinda like his [F3,] Fc, Fe, Ff, Fl, etc... nomenclature > more. I think it looks better, at least for English/Latin > character sets. > > BTW, definitely think we should stick with the 256x256 title > as the proof/original. We can then scale it down to 128 and > 64, possibly 32 and 16 for icons. > > > From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Tue Aug 23 01:13:51 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:13:51 +0800 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124759631.16966.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Well slightly off topic but over the weekend I managed to upgrade my FC3 -> FC4 box without any major hassles. Just transferring old configs to new configs. So to say that yum doesn't have a dist-upgrade option would definately be incorrect imo. Regards Marc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Tue Aug 23 01:21:50 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:21:50 -0400 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <1124759631.16966.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> <1124759631.16966.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124760110.16972.11.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 09:13 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Well slightly off topic but over the weekend I managed to upgrade my FC3 > -> FC4 box without any major hassles. Just transferring old configs to > new configs. So to say that yum doesn't have a dist-upgrade option > would definately be incorrect imo. > I disagree. A lot. The problem is that yum can't run outside of your installed system. There are MANY things yum can't do b/c it cannot know what state your system and/or the hw is in. -sv From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Tue Aug 23 01:23:34 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:23:34 +0800 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <1124760110.16972.11.camel@cutter> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> <1124759631.16966.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124760110.16972.11.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1124760214.16966.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 21:21 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 09:13 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > Well slightly off topic but over the weekend I managed to upgrade my FC3 > > -> FC4 box without any major hassles. Just transferring old configs to > > new configs. So to say that yum doesn't have a dist-upgrade option > > would definately be incorrect imo. > > > > I disagree. A lot. > > The problem is that yum can't run outside of your installed system. > There are MANY things yum can't do b/c it cannot know what state your > system and/or the hw is in. > I'm confused completely with that because it would know from previous files what the situation is in a generic form as in it would install the any packages that need upgrading. Any config files that need changes you can manually change what other section in that am I missing? Maybe I'm just to dopey to understand? Regards Marc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Tue Aug 23 01:31:58 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:31:58 -0400 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <1124760214.16966.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> <1124759631.16966.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124760110.16972.11.camel@cutter> <1124760214.16966.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124760718.16972.13.camel@cutter> > I'm confused completely with that because it would know from previous > files what the situation is in a generic form as in it would install the > any packages that need upgrading. Any config files that need changes > you can manually change what other section in that am I missing? Maybe > I'm just to dopey to understand? relabel all the disk partitions for a migration from lvm1 to lvm2 while the system is running, sometime. go ahead, give it a try. -sv From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Tue Aug 23 01:41:18 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:41:18 -0400 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <1124760718.16972.13.camel@cutter> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> <1124759631.16966.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124760110.16972.11.camel@cutter> <1124760214.16966.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124760718.16972.13.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1124761278.16972.15.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 21:31 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > I'm confused completely with that because it would know from previous > > files what the situation is in a generic form as in it would install the > > any packages that need upgrading. Any config files that need changes > > you can manually change what other section in that am I missing? Maybe > > I'm just to dopey to understand? > > relabel all the disk partitions for a migration from lvm1 to lvm2 while > the system is running, sometime. > > go ahead, give it a try. > to be fair - no live updater has or should have that functionality. I assure you - apt can't do that either. nor can smartpm. :) -sv From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Tue Aug 23 01:44:01 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:44:01 +0800 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <1124761278.16972.15.camel@cutter> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> <1124759631.16966.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124760110.16972.11.camel@cutter> <1124760214.16966.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124760718.16972.13.camel@cutter> <1124761278.16972.15.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1124761441.16966.51.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 21:41 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 21:31 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > I'm confused completely with that because it would know from previous > > > files what the situation is in a generic form as in it would install the > > > any packages that need upgrading. Any config files that need changes > > > you can manually change what other section in that am I missing? Maybe > > > I'm just to dopey to understand? > > > > relabel all the disk partitions for a migration from lvm1 to lvm2 while > > the system is running, sometime. > > > > go ahead, give it a try. > > > > to be fair - no live updater has or should have that functionality. > > I assure you - apt can't do that either. > > nor can smartpm. :) I'll make sure I try that :) not well I suppose my setup would be pretty simple since I don't use lvm I've had issues with lvm so I gave up. I just run about 4 partitions instead and a reiserfs as my backup partition. So in that respect I suppose I've been pretty lucky. Regards, Marc From mikem at cyber.com.au Tue Aug 23 01:31:36 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:31:36 +1000 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <1124759359.16966.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050822150903.64329.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1124759359.16966.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1124760697.2911.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Not sure if I mentioned how much I love these element logos before. They are original, elegant, convey Fedora's status as a leading edge Linux distro, and are nice and simple. Mike On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 09:09 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > I quite like it. Something simple seems to do it for me personally. > > Good work. > > Marc > On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 08:09 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > A colleague of mine (Brian Ashe) whipped up this one: > > http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/Fcore.jpg > > > > I kinda like his [F3,] Fc, Fe, Ff, Fl, etc... nomenclature > > more. I think it looks better, at least for English/Latin > > character sets. > > > > BTW, definitely think we should stick with the 256x256 title > > as the proof/original. We can then scale it down to 128 and > > 64, possibly 32 and 16 for icons. > > > > > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From mschwendt at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 11:52:27 2005 From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:52:27 +0200 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <1124760697.2911.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050822150903.64329.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1124759359.16966.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124760697.2911.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <440f31f605082304526a46ae1b@mail.gmail.com> On 23/08/05, Mike MacCana wrote: > > Not sure if I mentioned how much I love these element logos before. > > They are original, elegant, convey Fedora's status as a leading edge > Linux distro, and are nice and simple. No special interest in damping down everyone's enthusiasm, but in my opinion these "element style logos" don't just look amateurish, the whole design is questionable. What would be needed is either a single unique possibly abstract logo/symbol for the Fedora Project (or well, the Fedora Foundation in the future), something memorable, recognisable, like "Shadowman" for Red Hat, "N" for Novell, the abstract "@" for Debian, the chamaeleon for SuSE. Or simply a standard font/design for the letters and colouring of a textual logo. A clear design which is used on all project pages and all official partner's sites. To come up with individual logos for every sub-project and every distribution release version is a bad idea. In particular, the "C" from Fedora Core must always be a capital letter. No mixing of big "F" and small "c", please. From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 14:22:43 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:22:43 -0400 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <440f31f605082304526a46ae1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050822150903.64329.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1124759359.16966.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124760697.2911.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <440f31f605082304526a46ae1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05082307224b62793e@mail.gmail.com> On 8/23/05, Michael Schwendt wrote: > No special interest in damping down everyone's enthusiasm, but in my > opinion these "element style logos" don't just look amateurish, the > whole design is questionable. FWIW here's the originals: www.flabbergastic.com I had intended for the lower case blue "f" to be the signature element, with the version in the corner, and the qualifier (core, extras) along the bottom for the sort of consistency you get from the red Novell "N", etc., while still being able to signify the main core elements, pun totally intended. I believe the design chore is within Red Hat's design team as we speak, so we should see some more things to choose from soon. --jeremy --jeremy From nman64 at n-man.com Tue Aug 23 16:34:59 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:34:59 -0500 Subject: Slogan ideas In-Reply-To: <556f970a050823073928cb2463@mail.gmail.com> References: <430824D8.2060405@n-man.com> <556f970a050823073928cb2463@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <430B5033.9020904@n-man.com> Jeremy Hogan wrote: >Patrick, > >A couple of suggestions for the slogan page: > >What Linux can be. >Free as in free. > >--jeremy > > > Added to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Slogans -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 23 17:40:32 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slogan ideas In-Reply-To: <430B5033.9020904@n-man.com> Message-ID: <20050823174032.55737.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Patrick Barnes wrote: > Added to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Slogans Less Serious: Fedora Core: Because the kitchen sink is optional Fedora Extras: The kitchen sink of your choice More Serious: Fedora Core: The proven, trusted, integration and regression tested OS distribution with a decade of such lineage Fedora Extras: The best repository the community has to offer -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 18:09:28 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:09:28 -0400 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <440f31f605082304526a46ae1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050822150903.64329.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1124759359.16966.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124760697.2911.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <440f31f605082304526a46ae1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd0508231109320e7951@mail.gmail.com> > No special interest in damping down everyone's enthusiasm... And somehow that dampening effect is felt, even though I have no personal stake in the "element" design. > What would be needed is either a single unique possibly abstract logo/symbol for the Fedora Project ... I think we're past that point. If I were Jeff Spaleta, I'd threaten to deliberately derail this discussion, but I'm not so I'll let it fizzle itself out. > In particular, the "C" from Fedora Core must always be a capital letter. No mixing of big > "F"and small "c", please. Must it? I disagree. FWIW, I think the capital "C" conveys a connection to C[arbon]. Carbon's ability to form chains is thought to be an important reason for the dependance of life on this element. That's a powerful analogy for what we want Fedora Core to be. Besides, we're not permitted to use any hats and so I rather like the lower case downplaying of the fedora "f". From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 23 18:20:07 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd0508231109320e7951@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050823182007.94715.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Matt Frye wrote: > I think we're past that point. If I were Jeff Spaleta, I'd > threaten to deliberately derail this discussion, but I'm not > so I'll let it fizzle itself out. I just offered my slight modifications since I just joined the board. > Must it? I disagree. FWIW, I think the capital "C" > conveys a connection to C[arbon]. Carbon's ability to form > chains is thought to be an important reason for the > dependance of life on this element. That's a powerful > analogy for what we want Fedora Core to be. Hmmm, pretty good analogy. > Besides, we're not permitted to use any hats and so I > rather like the lower case downplaying of the fedora "f". BTW, it could be that the "element" logo is the small/short version of the logo. I think it's a quick'n dirty way to convey both repository and version, possibly currency. E.g., "Legacy" when a version has been made Legacy. There are lots of games one could play with the design. You could _always_ come up with a fancy, "larger logo" for more completeness. I just like the element logo because it's direct and detailed without overloading the viewer. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 23 18:43:33 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... Message-ID: <20050823184333.73650.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > BTW, it could be that the "element" logo is the small/short > version of the logo. I think it's a quick'n dirty way to > convey both repository and version, possibly currency. > E.g., "Legacy" when a version has been made Legacy. > There are lots of games one could play with the design. > You could _always_ come up with a fancy, "larger logo" for > more completeness. I just like the element logo because > it's direct and detailed without overloading the viewer. I guess if I didn't make myself clear ... I really like the element logo for any release/distro-specific news, updates, Release Notes, etc... There could be a "main/fancy" Fedora logo (no Core, Extras, etc...) for more general marketing. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From lxmaier at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 20:01:34 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:01:34 +0200 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <20050823184333.73650.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050823184333.73650.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7f617d27050823130123b09fd1@mail.gmail.com> On 8/23/05, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > I really like the element logo for any > release/distro-specific news, updates, Release Notes, etc... > > There could be a "main/fancy" Fedora logo (no Core, Extras, > etc...) for more general marketing. Normally, one logo should be enough for anybody :) -- a Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 23 22:43:02 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <7f617d27050823130123b09fd1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050823224303.8891.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Alex Maier wrote: > Normally, one logo should be enough for anybody :) It would be nice to have a logo for news, updates and other information that immediately told you what version, repository, etc... that was affected. A few vendors do such with their products. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 23:05:30 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:05:30 -0400 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <20050823224303.8891.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <7f617d27050823130123b09fd1@mail.gmail.com> <20050823224303.8891.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105082316054872d235@mail.gmail.com> On 8/23/05, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Alex Maier wrote: > > Normally, one logo should be enough for anybody :) > > It would be nice to have a logo for news, updates and other > information that immediately told you what version, > repository, etc... that was affected. > > A few vendors do such with their products. a versionable logo does have this advantage... but you also want to make sure there is a usable logo that is interesting enough to be distinctive without the versioning information for general PR gear. I'm equally fond of the puppy, the stylized fc "hat" as well as the element concept but for different reasons for each. I think the puppy is flexible and would very useful to create a palet of icons to be used in the growing official documentation and is frankly very "friendly" and appealing to what i consider a non-hardcore crowd. Perhaps a little too busy to make a good black-and-white logo or to be used at 24x24. I think the stylized "not-a-hat" hat, made up of the f and c letters has a certain style has a double meaning aspect that i crave. It would be easily re-usable on gear such as baseball caps or anthing that needed to be stitched and because of its minimal stroked style would look reasonable on black and white or small scales. I think the element idea is the most..functional..but also the most cold in terms of style and approachability. I don't get the warm and fuzzies from the element like i do the puppy. Or the "aha" moment when i see the "not-a-hat" hat as i realize its a hat..but not really and I ponder the deep subtle meaning there. The element screams "distro for science geeks", which personally I have no problem with since I'd love to be the target audience for a change of pace. Though if I were I fear my ego would expand to encompass all of the habitable space on the planet and the rest of humanity would be forced to travel to mars to rebuild human civilization. -jef From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 23 23:17:23 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Logo -- dog wearing fedora hat with blue gradient "box" in front, then zoom in on box ... In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082316054872d235@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050823231723.35715.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I think the puppy is flexible I love dogs. Unfortunately, the puppy connotates "immaturity." Not all Fedora Core versions are immature, just like old Red Hat Linux .1+ revisions were not. I'd rather use a full dog -- something conntating business but not too much. I'm a huge fan of pugs (I thought they were stupid looking before I had one -- most people do until they have one). Maybe a Fedora hat on a Pug with the slogan: Fedora: Putting a new [community] face on an old [trusted] dog (not sure if the "community" and "trusted" should go in there, might make it too long for a slogan). > I think the stylized "not-a-hat" hat, made up of the f and > c letters has a certain style has a double meaning aspect > that i crave ... > I think the element idea is the most..functional..but also > the most cold in terms of style and approachability. Or you could put the element box on the front of a Fedora (style hat) as the official logo. Maybe the element part is abstract so you can't read it, and it would only be legible when only the element box is shown. So you have the dog (pug ;-) with the Fedora hat and the Fedora hat has a gradient/blue box on the front but you can't read it other than a little white on it (where the text would normally be -- maybe only the large "F" or "C" is visible). That is the "main" logo for large print/usage. For the annotated, "in-the-corner" more technical usage, then you have the "up-close" element box with readable letters/numbers. It would be more for more technical documentation, press releases, etc... -- again, "in the corner" type usage where you want to convey what you are talking out to your viewer/reader in a glance. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Aug 23 23:19:54 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:19:54 -0700 Subject: Logo -- dog wearing fedora hat with blue gradient "box" in front, then zoom in on box ... In-Reply-To: <20050823231723.35715.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050823231723.35715.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1124839194.19261.6.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 16:17 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > Or you could put the element box on the front of a Fedora > (style hat) as the official logo. Maybe the element part is > abstract so you can't read it, and it would only be legible > when only the element box is shown. > Or the element logo is the dog tag around the Pug. (I have a pug myself, big dog in a little package) -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 23 23:22:01 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Logo -- dog wearing fedora hat with blue gradient "box" in front, then zoom in on box ... In-Reply-To: <20050823231723.35715.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050823232201.70713.qmail@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > I'm a huge fan of pugs (I thought they were stupid looking > before I had one -- most people do until they have one). > Maybe a Fedora hat on a Pug with the slogan: > > Fedora: > Putting a new [community] face on an old [trusted] dog I have two older pugs (age 9**), Bert and Ernie. Ernie definitely looks like "Frank the Pug" from MIB**. If I can track down a Fedora hat, I'll definite take a pic. I'll sign over all rights, etc... **NOTE: Age 9 = _before_ even MIB "1" (1997) came out. I.e., I did _not_ get a pug because of the movie MIB. I always like to point that out. ;-> -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 23 23:22:44 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Logo -- dog wearing fedora hat with blue gradient "box" in front, then zoom in on box ... In-Reply-To: <1124839194.19261.6.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > Or the element logo is the dog tag around the Pug. (I have > a pug myself, big dog in a little package) Even better! I love it! -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 23:47:58 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 05:17:58 +0530 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082316054872d235@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d27050823130123b09fd1@mail.gmail.com> <20050823224303.8891.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604aa79105082316054872d235@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <430BB5AE.3080309@redhat.com> HI >I think the element idea is the most..functional..but also the most >cold in terms of style and approachability. I don't get the warm and >fuzzies from the element like i do the puppy. Or the "aha" moment when >i see the "not-a-hat" hat as i realize its a hat..but not really and I >ponder the deep subtle meaning there. The element screams "distro for >science geeks", which personally I have no problem with since I'd love >to be the target audience for a change of pace. Though if I were I >fear my ego would expand to encompass all of the habitable space on >the planet and the rest of humanity would be forced to travel to mars >to rebuild human civilization. > These are insightful comments. I strongly favor the puppy logo too. It has much more of a fresh look and excitement for me regards Rahul From nman64 at n-man.com Tue Aug 23 23:55:22 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:55:22 -0500 Subject: Logo -- dog wearing fedora hat with blue gradient "box" in front, then zoom in on box ... In-Reply-To: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >Jesse Keating wrote: > > >>Or the element logo is the dog tag around the Pug. (I have >>a pug myself, big dog in a little package) >> >> > >Even better! I love it! > > > > > Definitely better. Although the dog idea might be a good one, the involvement of the hat is another story. That's a no-can-do. Personally, I like retrievers and shepherds more, but I guess we'd just have to see what people could come up with. I'll leave it at that for now. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 00:30:39 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:30:39 -0700 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <430BB5AE.3080309@redhat.com> References: <7f617d27050823130123b09fd1@mail.gmail.com> <20050823224303.8891.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604aa79105082316054872d235@mail.gmail.com> <430BB5AE.3080309@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124843439.10409.139.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 05:17 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > HI > > > These are insightful comments. I strongly favor the puppy logo too. It > has much more of a fresh look and excitement for me This is what I see: A puppy riding a surfboard on a wave that is Yula's Fedora Core logo. The shot is taken from above and is slightly distorted so we focus on his cute-to-kiss face and the 'fc', 'fe', 'fd', 'fl' element logo on his doggy collar. 64x64 version is just the fact with dog collar. Always, face with dog collar. The tiny version, such as the favicon from the website, is the dog collar tag. Least common logo that can be put on things becomes the dog tag with the appropriate element in the center. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 01:28:38 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:28:38 -0500 Subject: Logo -- dog wearing fedora hat with blue gradient "box" in front, then zoom in on box ... In-Reply-To: <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:55 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Definitely better. Although the dog idea might be a good one, I think the tag/collar is a seller (regardless of the animal/size). Hats off to Jesse Keating for realizing that! > the involvement of the hat is another story. That's a no-can-do. ??? Would Red Hat(R) claim copyright ??? If so, why? I mean, Fedora is already a trademark and it has guidelines, set by Red Hat. So I don't see a problem for something distributed under those guidelines. Why did Red Hat stick with the name "Fedora" if it can't be a hat??? > Personally, I like retrievers and shepherds more, but I guess we'd just > have to see what people could come up with. I'll leave it at that for now. Agreed. I think the "element" makes a good tag/collar regardless. Anyone disagree? Please do speak up (AFAIAC, this should not be the "get along" list). -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 01:30:22 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:30:22 -0500 Subject: Logo -- put what dog? In-Reply-To: <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124847022.4515.36.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:55 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Personally, I like retrievers and shepherds more, That's just too bad. @-ppp Just kidding. I still like my slogan for a Pug: "Fedora: Putting a new face on an old dog." -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 01:35:20 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:35:20 -0500 Subject: Logo -- remove my original element logo from page In-Reply-To: <20050822150903.64329.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050822150903.64329.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1124847320.4515.41.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> All -- Can someone remove my logo from the page? http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas Just leave the Brian Ashe version. (you can put "c/o Bryan J. Smith" if you want, I don't care either way). -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 01:37:18 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:37:18 -0500 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <1124843439.10409.139.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <7f617d27050823130123b09fd1@mail.gmail.com> <20050823224303.8891.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604aa79105082316054872d235@mail.gmail.com> <430BB5AE.3080309@redhat.com> <1124843439.10409.139.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124847438.4515.45.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 17:30 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > This is what I see: > A puppy Again, I think a little dog can be just as cute as a puppy, while not connotating immaturity. But that's just my viewpont. > riding a surfboard on a wave that is Yula's Fedora Core logo. Do you have this? I didn't see it on the page. > The shot is taken from above and is slightly distorted so we focus on > his cute-to-kiss face and the 'fc', 'fe', 'fd', 'fl' element logo on his > doggy collar. FYI, the periodic table of elements always caps the first character, lower cases the second. > 64x64 version is just the fact with dog collar. Always, face with dog > collar. 64x64 can get small. Why not the 128x128 too? (Brian Ashe's example is 128x128). -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From webmanagement at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 01:47:05 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andrew Hudson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:47:05 +0100 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <4309C19A.8000507@redhat.com> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> <4309C19A.8000507@redhat.com> Message-ID: <430BD199.40603@gmail.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >> >> >>> Remember that many of the opinionated people have a lot of energy >>> which means that you can convince them to be constructive critics or >>> even voracious participants. Pay more attention to any valid >>> criticism that you might getting and try to address that directly. So >>> the action plan is pretty neat >>> >> >> >> This is incredibly important for all of us to keep in mind. >> >> Marketing Fedora is more than just telling everyone "Fedora is wicked >> cool, use it." It's also about creating Wild Raving Lunatic Fedora >> Supporters -- and one of the surest ways to do that is to start with a >> Wild Raving Lunatic. :) >> >> The passion of open source advocates is sometimes a pain in the ass, but >> it can be turned to *tremendous* advantage. And as Rahul notes, one of >> the best ways to do it is to find the valid criticisms, acknowledge >> them, and fix them. >> >> --g >> > While we are at it, let me bring in some good news. Andrew Hudson alias > Andy who is the co-author of Fedora 4 Unleashed and the reviewer of > Fedora Core 4 in Linux format magazine and has somehow read my request > to have a copy of the review in the response to a Fedora forum posting > that was pointed out earlier has contacted me off list and asked whether > I would want a copy. Of course, I promptly said yes and got a PDF soon > enough. (I am not allowed to redistribute in a public website without > permission. Interested community marketing members can get a copy on > request offline) and also expressed his interest to participate in the > Fedora Docs project after clarifying some details from Sams publishing. > I am reading through the interesting review now and will respond back to > him and this list in detail later. > regards > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > Hi Rahul and Fedora marketeers in general! I'm Andy, the guy who wrote 'that' review and also co-authored FC4 Unleashed. I've had the go-ahead from Sams to work on the FDP which is good news for me, and hopefully the FDP. As for marketing, well I work for one of the largest specialist interest publishers in the UK, Future, and they have a range of computing titles which could potentially cover Fedora in their tutorials. I'm guessing that this would be something that you guys might be interested in pursuing? Let me know and I can contact a few editors to sound them out... Thanks, Andy From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 01:49:22 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:49:22 -0700 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <1124847438.4515.45.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <7f617d27050823130123b09fd1@mail.gmail.com> <20050823224303.8891.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604aa79105082316054872d235@mail.gmail.com> <430BB5AE.3080309@redhat.com> <1124843439.10409.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124847438.4515.45.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1124848162.10409.150.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 20:37 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 17:30 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > This is what I see: > > A puppy > > Again, I think a little dog can be just as cute as a puppy, while not > connotating immaturity. But that's just my viewpont. > > > riding a surfboard on a wave that is Yula's Fedora Core logo. > > Do you have this? I didn't see it on the page. Typo, meant Luya, appears right about yours that is about to be removed. > FYI, the periodic table of elements always caps the first character, > lower cases the second. Oh, sure. > > 64x64 version is just the fact with dog collar. Always, face with dog > > collar. > > 64x64 can get small. Why not the 128x128 too? > (Brian Ashe's example is 128x128). That too. Just the smaller size = less detail. FWIW, I'm in favor of a mascot and a logo being separate things. I put this blender together to see what it would look like. I still like the element as the logo or Luya's design. Viscerally, I like Luya's better, but I know the element idea likely scales better. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 01:50:43 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:50:43 -0700 Subject: Logo -- remove my original element logo from page In-Reply-To: <1124847320.4515.41.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050822150903.64329.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1124847320.4515.41.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1124848243.10409.152.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 20:35 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > All -- > > Can someone remove my logo from the page? > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas > > Just leave the Brian Ashe version. > (you can put "c/o Bryan J. Smith" if you want, I don't care either way). Done You, too, can have Wiki access ... just give me a nickel. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 01:52:19 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:22:19 +0530 Subject: Unfortunate articles In-Reply-To: <430BD199.40603@gmail.com> References: <1124424067.13219.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43055A94.8010503@redhat.com> <1124425962.13219.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1124426839.13219.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <430719EE.6020509@redhat.com> <4309C19A.8000507@redhat.com> <430BD199.40603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <430BD2D3.5060702@redhat.com> Hi > > Hi Rahul and Fedora marketeers in general! > > I'm Andy, the guy who wrote 'that' review and also co-authored FC4 > Unleashed. Welcome to the marketing group. I have already gone through the copy of the review you send me. I will write in a response soon. Having you within the project itself makes this easier I guess ;-) > > I've had the go-ahead from Sams to work on the FDP which is good news > for me, and hopefully the FDP. Definitely. > > As for marketing, well I work for one of the largest specialist > interest publishers in the UK, Future, and they have a range of > computing titles which could potentially cover Fedora in their > tutorials. I'm guessing that this would be something that you guys > might be interested in pursuing? > > Let me know and I can contact a few editors to sound them out... I cant imagine us letting go of a wonderful opportunity like that. Sure. Go ahead regards Rahul From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Wed Aug 24 01:51:52 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:51:52 +0800 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <1124848162.10409.150.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <7f617d27050823130123b09fd1@mail.gmail.com> <20050823224303.8891.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604aa79105082316054872d235@mail.gmail.com> <430BB5AE.3080309@redhat.com> <1124843439.10409.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124847438.4515.45.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848162.10409.150.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124848312.16966.75.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > FWIW, I'm in favor of a mascot and a logo being separate things. I put > this blender together to see what it would look like. I still like the > element as the logo or Luya's design. Viscerally, I like Luya's better, > but I know the element idea likely scales better. I agree with this. I don't dislike the pup however I prefer personally a simple logo and a mascot as two separate items. Regards Marc From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 01:57:07 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:57:07 -0500 Subject: Logo -- remove my original element logo from page In-Reply-To: <1124848243.10409.152.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20050822150903.64329.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1124847320.4515.41.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848243.10409.152.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124848627.4515.48.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:50 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Done BTW, put a "modification version of Jeremy/Diana" instead of me. > You, too, can have Wiki access ... just give me a nickel. Do you trust me? @-p -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 01:57:17 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:57:17 -0700 Subject: Logo -- dog wearing fedora hat with blue gradient "box" in front, then zoom in on box ... In-Reply-To: <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 20:28 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:55 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > the involvement of the hat is another story. That's a no-can-do. > > ??? Would Red Hat(R) claim copyright ??? If so, why? I mean, Fedora > is already a trademark and it has guidelines, set by Red Hat. So I > don't see a problem for something distributed under those guidelines. I'm going to pull the usual and ask you to read the list archives, where this has been beaten to death. Red Hat has a trademark of Shadowan, of a man wearing a fedora hat. Red Hat has to defend that trademark in order to continue to be allowed to own the trademark. That's trademark law. > Why did Red Hat stick with the name "Fedora" if it can't be a hat??? Maybe a different name would be better, but it's a little late for that. > > Personally, I like retrievers and shepherds more, but I guess we'd just > > have to see what people could come up with. I'll leave it at that for now. > > Agreed. I think the "element" makes a good tag/collar regardless. > > Anyone disagree? > Please do speak up (AFAIAC, this should not be the "get along" list). I still like Luya's logo, it has such subtlety to it ... but I bet it doesn't make it past the designers. Barring that, the element looking embossed or like a sapphire with a wrought iron border and a little ring on the top to hook onto the collar. Like an alchemist's element. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 01:59:25 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:29:25 +0530 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <1124848312.16966.75.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f617d27050823130123b09fd1@mail.gmail.com> <20050823224303.8891.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604aa79105082316054872d235@mail.gmail.com> <430BB5AE.3080309@redhat.com> <1124843439.10409.139.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124847438.4515.45.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848162.10409.150.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124848312.16966.75.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <430BD47D.10209@redhat.com> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >>FWIW, I'm in favor of a mascot and a logo being separate things. I put >>this blender together to see what it would look like. I still like the >>element as the logo or Luya's design. Viscerally, I like Luya's better, >>but I know the element idea likely scales better. >> >> > >I agree with this. I don't dislike the pup however I prefer personally >a simple logo and a mascot as two separate items. > > Definitely, if can have both a logo and a mascot. I would vote for the element logo and a puppy mascot but I thought I heard reject mascots on the whole regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 02:07:59 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:07:59 -0500 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:57 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > I'm going to pull the usual and ask you to read the list archives, where > this has been beaten to death. Red Hat has a trademark of Shadowan, of a > man wearing a fedora hat. Red Hat has to defend that trademark in order > to continue to be allowed to own the trademark. That's trademark law. So why can't Red Hat defend the same on Fedora(TM)? I have no problem with that. After all, they _do_ lay claim to the trademark and they _do_ define it's guidelines on use. If not, then why didn't they change the name to something else than Fedora when they assumed the name from the University of Hawaii project? > Maybe a different name would be better, but it's a little late for that. Yeah! Ya think? Who didn't think this through? Really?! I mean, if the original move by Red Hat was to spin off an independent project under its own autonomous control, why didn't they? Why can't the hat be "controlled and defended" on a project founded by and still largely controlled by Red Hat? The use of the term "Fedora" and its trademarks _does_ have limitations. This is no different than when Red Hat first started enforcing its Red Hat(R) usage guidelines. If you do X, Y and Z, you can use it. Otherwise, you can't. "Fedora" is not public domain. I fail to see the problem. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 02:07:24 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:37:24 +0530 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:57 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > >>I'm going to pull the usual and ask you to read the list archives, where >>this has been beaten to death. Red Hat has a trademark of Shadowan, of a >>man wearing a fedora hat. Red Hat has to defend that trademark in order >>to continue to be allowed to own the trademark. That's trademark law. >> >> > >So why can't Red Hat defend the same on Fedora(TM)? >I have no problem with that. After all, they _do_ lay claim to the >trademark and they _do_ define it's guidelines on use. > Fedora trademark guidelines are meant to be more a lot more flexible than the Red Hat or Shadow man ones. So we need to cleanly seperate them from each other. This is one of the reasons the name was changed into Fedora from Red Hat Linux Project. regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 02:13:45 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:13:45 -0500 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 07:37 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Fedora trademark guidelines are meant to be more a lot more flexible > than the Red Hat or Shadow man ones. Then why the name ... "Fedora"??? Really?! > So we need to cleanly seperate them from each other. This is one of the > reasons the name was changed into Fedora from Red Hat Linux Project. Dude, I know all about Sun and all the issues there -- the lack of enforcement prior. Heck, I still here people bitch about Red Hat(R) Linux because they were using heavily modified Cobalts. I know the reasons, I have _defended_ Red Hat heavily on LUGs and elsewhere. But it's called _Fedora_. What do you mean no hat?!?!?! -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 02:16:20 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:46:20 +0530 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <430BD874.2040902@redhat.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 07:37 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Fedora trademark guidelines are meant to be more a lot more flexible >>than the Red Hat or Shadow man ones. >> >> > >Then why the name ... "Fedora"??? Really?! > > Anything thats different from "Red Hat" can be used to enforce a different set of trademark guidelines . So thats "Fedora" for you. Its a different name. Different principles >But it's called _Fedora_. What do you mean no hat?!?!?! > > > A hat especially a Fedora is already owned by Shadow man. Shadow man wont let you touch him. He hates Fedora. ;-) regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 02:21:27 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:21:27 -0500 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 21:13 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > But it's called _Fedora_. What do you mean no hat?!?!?! Let me put it this way, and explain it to me like a 2-year old. First off, let's start with ... "Fedora(TM) is a trademark of Red Hat, Inc." The name "Fedora(TM)" would be considered "infringement" from a legal standpoint if it came from another vendor. But it comes from Red Hat! So I'm still _failing_ to understand how the use of a trademarked word that basically says "hat" is any different than a trademarked illustration of the same damn thing. Especially under these context: http://www.fedora.redhat.com/about/trademarks/ http://www.fedora.redhat.com/about/trademarks/guidelines/ If Red Hat is going to give up control of the trademark, I still _fail_ to see the difference. If Red Hat is going to assert it cannot allow another use of a "hat" in a logo by the Fedora Foundation or whatever entity that "owns" its governance, then how can it assert the use of even the word "Fedora(TM)" outside of Red Hat's control at all? Again, explain this to me like a 2-year old? Is Red Hat going to maintain it owns the trademark of Fedora(TM) in the future, and the guidelines of its use? If so, then why can they do the same with an illustration? And if not, is not even the word "Fedora(TM)" going to be a possible point and example of use without permission? Or is Red Hat going to give permission? And if so, then why can't they do the same with an illustration? Again, IANAL, but this doesn't make sense to me. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 02:24:57 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:24:57 -0500 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <430BD874.2040902@redhat.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD874.2040902@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124850297.4515.79.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 07:46 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Anything thats different from "Red Hat" can be used to enforce a > different set of trademark guidelines . So thats "Fedora" for you. Its > a different name. Different principles "Red Hat" and "Fedora" are different. Why can't an illustration of a hat be different then? > A hat especially a Fedora is already owned by Shadow man. Why not a different hat? I don't understand this. IANAL, but from a legal perspective, just the word "Fedora(TM)" is infringing on the fact that Shadow man wears a Red Fedora! Again, explain this to me like I'm a 2-year old. In other words, if Red Hat already considers anything with a "hat" in its trademark to be a potential infringement it must enforce, then the mere name of "Fedora" is one damn big problem! But if Red Hat says it owns the Fedora trademark and has guidelines on its usage, then why can't it do the same with an illustration as much as a word? Especially a word that is ... "Fedora"?! Again, explain this to me like I'm a 2-year old. Heck, explain this to me like I'm a judge. > Shadow man wont let you touch him. He hates Fedora. ;-) Huh? I disagree. Shadow man is Red Hat, and Red Hat has been largely Fedora. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 02:21:30 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:21:30 -0400 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105082319215d81134d@mail.gmail.com> On 8/23/05, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 21:13 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > But it's called _Fedora_. What do you mean no hat?!?!?! > > Let me put it this way, and explain it to me like a 2-year old. Daddy said no... now got to the time out corner until you calm down.. or you will NOT get a cookie. -jef"and stop biting the other kids in your class"spaleta From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 02:23:23 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:53:23 +0530 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> Hi >Especially under these context: > http://www.fedora.redhat.com/about/trademarks/ > http://www.fedora.redhat.com/about/trademarks/guidelines/ > >If Red Hat is going to give up control of the trademark, I still _fail_ >to see the difference. If Red Hat is going to assert it cannot allow >another use of a "hat" in a logo by the Fedora Foundation or whatever >entity that "owns" its governance, then how can it assert the use of >even the word "Fedora(TM)" outside of Red Hat's control at all? > > The Fedora trademark guidelines you can provide above are different from the other Red Hat trade mark (which includes Shadow man) guidelines http://www.redhat.com/en_us/USA/Home/Company/Company+Profile/Trademark+Information/ Red Hat or Fedora Foundation or whoever is the enforcing entity can grant more freedom to the Fedora related trademarks to encourage the community to use them in more flexible ways regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 02:27:42 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:57:42 +0530 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <1124850297.4515.79.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD874.2040902@redhat.com> <1124850297.4515.79.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <430BDB1E.8080503@redhat.com> Hi >>A hat especially a Fedora is already owned by Shadow man. >> >> > >Why not a different hat? I don't understand this. > > Probably because Red Hat doesnt want anything similar. >IANAL, but from a legal perspective, just the word "Fedora(TM)" is >infringing on the fact that Shadow man wears a Red Fedora! > > I can see that you are not a lawyer. Red Hat has several. You are beating a dead horse anyway. Let it go. "No hat" has been a decision that has already been made . No amount of bickering is going to change that regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 02:33:40 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:33:40 -0500 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 07:53 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > The Fedora trademark guidelines you can provide above are different from > the other Red Hat trade mark (which includes Shadow man) guidelines > http://www.redhat.com/en_us/USA/Home/Company/Company+Profile/Trademark+Information/ Exactly! So what's the problem? > Red Hat or Fedora Foundation or whoever is the enforcing entity can > grant more freedom to the Fedora related trademarks to encourage the > community to use them in more flexible ways EXACTLY MY POINT! The name "Fedora(TM)" itself is already a big-ass problem for Red Hat Legal if that happens! Because Shadow Man wears a Red Fedora! Either Red Hat has to maintain control over the word "Fedora," or the names gotta go. IANAL, but that's the reality of the name. If you'all can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you. I mean, at what point can't another vendor call their distro "Gangster" and put on a Gangster Fedora hat in the illustration? I mean, they could quickly point to the fact that "Fedora(TM)" is used outside of the control of Red Hat. Thus, we have a legal problem for Red Hat. An illustration is the _least_ of Red Hat's concern _unless_ they maintain control over the usage of the word "Fedora(TM)" in a Linux (possibly even an OS) context. So in that case, they will be maintaining control over anything related to "Fedora(TM)", including any possible illustration. Otherwise, Fedora Foundation, might as well change the name now. @-P -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 02:37:57 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:37:57 -0500 Subject: Logo -- saving the Fedora Foundation from its name ... In-Reply-To: <430BDB1E.8080503@redhat.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD874.2040902@redhat.com> <1124850297.4515.79.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDB1E.8080503@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124851077.4515.91.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 07:57 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I can see that you are not a lawyer. Red Hat has several. Yes, and has anyone brought up the future of the mere word "Fedora" with them?!?!?! > You are beating a dead horse anyway. No, this is a _different_ horse. Read on ... > Let it go. "No hat" has been a decision that has already been made. But what about "no Fedora""?!?!?! That's what I'm getting at! > No amount of bickering is going to change that I'm not bickering, I'm SAVING THE FEDORA FOUNDATIONS @$$! And at what point is the word "Fedora(TM)", no longer under the control of Red Hat ... and to quote you ... "Red Hat or Fedora Foundation or whoever is the enforcing entity can grant more freedom to the Fedora related trademarks to encourage the community to use them in more flexible ways" ... being used "too flexible" to the point where people can use anything related to hats, then turn around as show "Fedora" as an example _independent_ of Red Hat's control? And if the answer is that Red Hat empowered Fedora to use the word, then what the heck is the difference? -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 02:35:46 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:05:46 +0530 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <430BDD02.7090101@redhat.com> Hi >The name "Fedora(TM)" itself is already a big-ass problem for Red Hat >Legal if that happens! Because Shadow Man wears a Red Fedora! > Avoid claiming things like that unless you have the legal knowledge about this. Let me repeat this in a simple fashion. The decision to not use a hat for Fedora has already been made for whatever reason it has been made. Its not going to change. So lets move on regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 02:39:23 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:39:23 -0500 Subject: Logo -- saving the Fedora Foundation from its name ... In-Reply-To: <1124851077.4515.91.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD874.2040902@redhat.com> <1124850297.4515.79.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDB1E.8080503@redhat.com> <1124851077.4515.91.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1124851164.4515.94.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 21:37 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Yes, and has anyone brought up the future of the mere word "Fedora" with > them?!?!?! > ... being used "too flexible" to the point where people can use anything > related to hats, then turn around as show "Fedora" as an example > _independent_ of Red Hat's control? > And if the answer is that Red Hat empowered Fedora to use the word, then > what the heck is the difference? Or, worse yet, what if Red Hat Legal says ... "oh shit, we can't allow the Fedora(TM) trademark to be used because it opens up a loophole to Shadow Man?!" That's what I'm talking about! Years down the road, the names gotta get changed. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 02:44:16 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:44:16 -0500 Subject: Logo -- let's move on ... the legal loophole of "Fedora(TM)" for Red Hat In-Reply-To: <430BDD02.7090101@redhat.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDD02.7090101@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124851456.4515.100.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 08:05 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Avoid claiming things like that unless you have the legal knowledge > about this. Dude, I'm brining up a very, very valid reason on why the name itself is going to be a reason. You can try to silence me on the hat issue, but the name itself is a serious loophole from a legal standpoint. Because it could very well be that Red Hat legal would have to force the change of the name sometime in the future. I'm not demonizing Red Hat at all, I'm pointing out something very, very valid. You can silence me now because you are thinking I am being argumentative. But make no mistake, some company in the future _will_ push the issue, and possibly force a name change on "Fedora(TM)" in the end. > Let me repeat this in a simple fashion. The decision to not use a hat > for Fedora has already been made for whatever reason it has been made. > Its not going to change. So lets move on Okay, let's move on ... Has anyone postured the legal loophole that a "Fedora(TM)" trademark no longer under the control and enforcement of Red Hat, might cause? I'm serious. This was my point, regardless of the illustration. In fact, the whole reason I even figured we could use a hat was because Fedora(TM) is controlled and enforced by Red Hat. If not, then not only is a hat not appropriate, but the name for a hat! Dude, you don't have to be a lawyer to put this together. If I'm running the Fedora Foundation, it's my #1 concern. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 02:49:26 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:49:26 -0500 Subject: Logo -- bling-bling ... In-Reply-To: <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124851766.4515.105.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 18:55 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Definitely better. Although the dog idea might be a good one, the > involvement of the hat is another story. That's a no-can-do. > Personally, I like retrievers and shepherds more, but I guess we'd just > have to see what people could come up with. I'll leave it at that for now. I say we take the dog and just ... http://www.costumesinc.com/p8285/Pimp-Dog--Pet-Costume.html Pimp him out bay-bee! And the dog tag can be the centerpiece of the bling-bling bay-bee! And we'll rename the distro from "Fedora Core" to "Bling Whore." Slogan: "Bling: Don't you dare pimp up your rig with anything else!" -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 02:46:12 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:16:12 +0530 Subject: Logo -- let's move on ... the legal loophole of "Fedora(TM)" for Red Hat In-Reply-To: <1124851456.4515.100.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDD02.7090101@redhat.com> <1124851456.4515.100.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <430BDF74.2040104@redhat.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 08:05 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Avoid claiming things like that unless you have the legal knowledge >>about this. >> >> > >Dude, I'm brining up a very, very valid reason on why the name itself is >going to be a reason. You can try to silence me on the hat issue, but >the name itself is a serious loophole from a legal standpoint. > Unless you are a lawyer and have a great amount of knowledge about trademarks, you are trying to second guess a professional legal team who are much more concerned about such issues from a business point of view. This is not a mailing list for legal discussions. Kindly take it elsewhere regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 02:53:27 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:53:27 -0500 Subject: Logo -- let's move on ... the legal loophole of "Fedora(TM)" for Red Hat In-Reply-To: <430BDF74.2040104@redhat.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDD02.7090101@redhat.com> <1124851456.4515.100.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDF74.2040104@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124852007.4515.110.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 08:16 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Unless you are a lawyer and have a great amount of knowledge about > trademarks, you are trying to second guess a professional legal team who > are much more concerned about such issues from a business point of view. You're damn straight. I'm really concerned that the word "Fedora" can and will become an enforcement issue for Red Hat. Why hasn't anyone else thought of this? The whole reason I thought the Fedora Foundation could even continue use the word "Fedora" as a trademark was because Red Hat would maintain control over it, or somehow authorize/license the Fedora Foundation. If that is not the case, illustrations are not the problem! > This is not a mailing list for legal discussions. Kindly take it elsewhere Okay, which list? Seriously, this is a serious, serious issue. I'm not a lawyer, but I do a lot of consulting all over the US and sign dozens of contracts a year. Some of them deal with the serious misuse of trademarks, so I'm a bit dumbfounded. If I'm running the Fedora Foundation, it would be my #1 concern right now. I'm being 0% argumentative. What is the guarantee that the Fedora Foundation does not have its trademark become the victim of enforcement issues? -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Aug 24 03:20:22 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:20:22 +1000 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 14, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: <430769CD.4010405@redhat.com> References: <20050820173157.13525CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> <430769CD.4010405@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1124853623.15466.381.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 23:05 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > asked questions. As I told in this before Fedora guide and Fedora > FAQ > authors are already communicating about colloboration. I will post > more > details when I have them What Fedora Guide? fedoraguide.org ? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 03:29:26 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:29:26 -0400 Subject: Logo -- let's move on ... the legal loophole of "Fedora(TM)" for Red Hat In-Reply-To: <1124852007.4515.110.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDD02.7090101@redhat.com> <1124851456.4515.100.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDF74.2040104@redhat.com> <1124852007.4515.110.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910508232029617b3491@mail.gmail.com> On 8/23/05, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > You're damn straight. I'm really concerned that the word "Fedora" can > and will become an enforcement issue for Red Hat. Why hasn't anyone > else thought of this? Don't you mean.. why hasn't anyone made a big public fuss about it in a mailinglist like you are doing. How about you WAIT for the details of the foundation to be made public. The foundation doesn't exist yet..so how about you stick to second guessing existing institutions and organizations and leave the crystal ball reading of the future to the professionals like me. Once the foundation does exist...and you have had a chance to read through all the related legal paperwork associated with constructing the non-profit entity and the transfer of assets..then please...if there are any specific unresolved legal issues you want to discuss with the boardmembers..do it then...don't do it now while no one other than the people working on the paperwork can comment. And frankly I'd MUCH rather have them concentrating on the paperwork than fending off imagined problems about how the trademarks are going to be transferred. As it stands... the decision about the project name has been made... the decision about "no hats" logo has been made. Sorry you didn't get to have the final say about those decisions..but they were made..and thats that. We can not continue to hashout the SAME dicussion every month. Actually I thought this logo topic was now a little past being worthwhile, the original purpose of coming up with ideas has been served and the designers have been tasked to actually do something that doesn't suck. At least that's what I read from the marketing meeting minutes and from other posts. As far as I can tell this past weeks discussion about logos has been a wee bit self-indulgent.. and frankly has gone on way too long to serve anything but frustration if the design team really has been tasked to deal with it now. The tagential legal issues that you are bringing at this late date are just dragging the purpose of this list backwards not forwards. If you are itching to do something constructive i suggest you read over the last marketing meeting minutes and look at the defined action items and see if you can help out specifically with one of them. You will of course probably disappointed that none of the action items was "second guess the yet-to-be-created foundation's ability to manage and its ip assets" -jef -jef > > The whole reason I thought the Fedora Foundation could even continue use > the word "Fedora" as a trademark was because Red Hat would maintain > control over it, or somehow authorize/license the Fedora Foundation. If > that is not the case, illustrations are not the problem! > > > This is not a mailing list for legal discussions. Kindly take it elsewhere > > Okay, which list? Seriously, this is a serious, serious issue. > > I'm not a lawyer, but I do a lot of consulting all over the US and sign > dozens of contracts a year. Some of them deal with the serious misuse > of trademarks, so I'm a bit dumbfounded. > > If I'm running the Fedora Foundation, it would be my #1 concern right > now. I'm being 0% argumentative. What is the guarantee that the Fedora > Foundation does not have its trademark become the victim of enforcement > issues? > > > -- > Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if > you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 03:54:37 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:54:37 -0500 Subject: Logo -- let's move on ... the legal loophole of "Fedora(TM)" for Red Hat In-Reply-To: <604aa7910508232029617b3491@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDD02.7090101@redhat.com> <1124851456.4515.100.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDF74.2040104@redhat.com> <1124852007.4515.110.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <604aa7910508232029617b3491@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124855677.4515.171.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 23:29 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Don't you mean.. why hasn't anyone made a big public fuss about it in > a mailinglist like you are doing. How about you WAIT for the details > of the foundation to be made public. The foundation doesn't exist > yet..so how about you stick to second guessing existing institutions > and organizations and leave the crystal ball reading of the future to > the professionals like me. Dude, I don't have to have a crystal ball on this one. I had always assumed Red Hat would keep ownership on the "Fedora(TM)" because of the tie to the Shadow Man trademark. I mean, how can Red Hat allow "Fedora (TM)" if it doesn't own it? > Once the foundation does exist...and you have had a chance to read > through all the related legal paperwork associated with constructing > the non-profit entity and the transfer of assets..then please...if > there are any specific unresolved legal issues you want to discuss > with the boardmembers..do it then...don't do it now while no one other > than the people working on the paperwork can comment. Dude, this isn't imagined. If Red Hat foresees an enforcement issue a problem with anyone using a "hat" in an illustration, then why don't they see the same with "Fedora"? > And frankly I'd MUCH rather have them concentrating on the paperwork > than fending off imagined problems about how the trademarks are going > to be transferred. Frankly, I think the paperwork is _moot_ if the "Fedora" name is a serious trademark loophole others can follow it through and use it as an example of non-enforcement. If I'm "throwing a wrench" into the Fedora Foundations plans by bringing this out, DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER! In fact, something like this makes me wonder if I shouldn't send an e-mail to Brooks over at eWeek, or write an article myself for any one of the publications I regularly write for?! Now if it is Red Hat's intent to "license" the trademark "Fedora(TM)" but state that they name has no relationship to an illustration of the same term, that _might_ be something. But it really seems ... well, how can I put this ... "legally weird" in my experience. ;-> > As it stands... the decision about the project name has been made... > the decision about "no hats" logo has been made. Sorry you didn't get > to have the final say about those decisions..but they were made..and > thats that. I'm beyond that. I could care less about the hat now. Go hatless for all I care, I'm not even debating that anymore, so drop it yourself. ;-> I'm just saying if the reason for "no hats" is because of legal enforcement issues, then if "Fedora(TM)" is outside of Red Hat's control, possibly under "looser" trademark guidelines, it's just going to cause Red Hat future issues! And those future issues could threaten the name Fedora in general as an independent project! So what more "whistle-blowing" can I do? > We can not continue to hashout the SAME dicussion every month. This isn't about the "hat" anymore. Forget I even mentioned it. This is about the "Fedora(TM)" trademark in general. At what point under "less restrictive" guidelines will "Fedora(TM)" not be an issue? > Actually I thought this logo topic was now a little past being > worthwhile, the original purpose of coming up with ideas has been > served and the designers have been tasked to actually do something > that doesn't suck. At least that's what I read from the marketing > meeting minutes and from other posts. Yes, I agree. Forget I even mentioned the hat. Dude, I'm dead serious here, I'm not even talking about the hat anymore, and I'm _not_ being "argumentative." I had always assumed that Red Hat would maintain ownership of "Fedora (TM)" because of the legal tie to Shadowman's Red Fedora hat. I mean, how can Red Hat let an independent party use Fedora from an enforcement standpoint? Don't give me "you're not a lawyer" junk because that's not what this is about. I have been in the middle of Fortune 20 companies on the SCO lawsuit and have had projects canceled because of lawyers fearing too much over little things. This one is pretty cut'n dry in my experience. > As far as I can tell this past weeks discussion about logos has been a > wee bit self-indulgent.. and frankly has gone on way too long to serve > anything but frustration if the design team really has been tasked to > deal with it now. The tagential legal issues that you are bringing at > this late date are just dragging the purpose of this list backwards > not forwards. Then point me to the _correct_ list. I won't mention it here again. Otherwise, this has got to be the #1 "wake up call" to me. Again, I had always though "Fedora(TM)" was a non-issue for Red Hat because Red Hat owned it, and dictated the terms of its use. If this is not going to be the case ... man, I can only assume the legal issues as a result. Please see this as a _sincere_ consideration for the future of Fedora, not some "argumentative" non-sense. > If you are itching to do something constructive i > suggest you read over the last marketing meeting minutes and look at > the defined action items and see if you can help out specifically with > one of them. You will of course probably disappointed that none of the > action items was "second guess the yet-to-be-created foundation's > ability to manage and its ip assets" Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I have been involved with high-level legal considerations on major issues and found very rational explanations and considerations to be very helpful to many Fortune 20 legal departments. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Aug 24 04:01:21 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:01:21 -0700 Subject: Logo -- let's move on ... the legal loophole of "Fedora(TM)" for Red Hat In-Reply-To: <1124855677.4515.171.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDD02.7090101@redhat.com> <1124851456.4515.100.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDF74.2040104@redhat.com> <1124852007.4515.110.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <604aa7910508232029617b3491@mail.gmail.com> <1124855677.4515.171.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1124856081.3859.0.camel@yoda.loki.me> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 22:54 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > If I'm "throwing a wrench" into the Fedora Foundations plans by bringing > this out, DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER! In fact, something like this makes > me wonder if I shouldn't send an e-mail to Brooks over at eWeek, or > write an article myself for any one of the publications I regularly > write for?! > > Now if it is Red Hat's intent to "license" the trademark "Fedora(TM)" > but state that they name has no relationship to an illustration of the > same term, that _might_ be something. But it really seems ... well, how > can I put this ... "legally weird" in my experience. ;-> "dude" please get legal council before dumping this kind of crap on in a publication. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 24 04:02:32 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:02:32 -0500 Subject: Logo -- let's move on ... the legal loophole of "Fedora(TM)" for Red Hat In-Reply-To: <604aa7910508232029617b3491@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDD02.7090101@redhat.com> <1124851456.4515.100.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDF74.2040104@redhat.com> <1124852007.4515.110.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <604aa7910508232029617b3491@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <430BF158.1080603@n-man.com> Call me a sucker, but I would like to take a shot at settling this issue. IANAL, but I am very well versed in these issues. We Have: 1. Red Hat handing over the trademark "Fedora" to the Fedora Foundation 2. Red Hat keeping the Shadowman trademark 3. Red Hat keeping all related rights to the Shadowman trademark We Want: 1. The Foundation to have full power over the name "Fedora" without the threat of future legal issues 2. The Foundation to have full power over the chosen logo (and any potential mascot) without the threat of future legal issues The Problems: 1. The Shadowman trademark presents a figure wearing a Fedora hat 2. The Fedora name is similar in meaning to Red Hat, and refers to the type of hat worn by Shadowman Why the Problems aren't Problems (and how): 1. If Red Hat transfers ownership of "Fedora" to the Foundation, it cannot later revoke that right, meaning that we never have to worry about threats to the name. Since the trademark is already established, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to challenge successfully. This is true from the perspective of any organization, not just Red Hat. 2. Any use of a hat in the logo would resemble the Shadowman logo, to which the Foundation will get no special rights. Due to the relationship between the Foundation and Red Hat, it would be easy to challenge any use of a hat. This is why we cannot use a hat in the logo. 3. From a legal standpoint, there is no relationship between the word "Fedora" and hats. "Fedora" is just a name, and a hat is just a hat. Holding the Fedora trademark grants the Foundation no special right to the usage of hats in images. Therefore, the name is irrelevant with regards to allowing us to infringe upon the Shadowman trademark. 4. As a reverse point of (3), Red Hat cannot claim that the "Fedora" name has anything to do with the appearance of a hat in their Shadowman logo. They cannot say that the "Fedora" trademark infringes upon the Shadowman trademark. With the workings of the U.S. court system, the initial decisions regarding what rights go where are likely to be upheld by courts in the future. It will be hard for Red Hat to come back many years down the road and claim that something they allow now should not have been permitted. The reverse is also true. It is unlikely that Red Hat saw this exact sequence of events coming. We can argue that Fedora should have been named something else in the future. It can easily be agreed that Fedora was probably not the best choice of a name and that it does create some (minor) complications. However, the name is now established and any shortcomings can be overcome. It may seem silly that we cannot use a hat with a name like Fedora, but it is the way things have fallen. There is no need to change any names or existing trademarks. We simply need to choose a logo that does not have a hat. With the popularity of alternative ideas, there is no reason to complain about this. This thread is now gathering negative attention, so all who have the best wishes at heart should discontinue this thread. Try to take everything that has been discussed to heart, and understand that everything is working out just fine as it is, and there is no need to be concerned about future problems. Everything has been thoroughly thought through, and all the little pieces are falling perfectly into place. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 04:49:15 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:49:15 -0500 Subject: Logo -- let's move on ... the legal loophole of "Fedora(TM)" for Red Hat In-Reply-To: <430BF158.1080603@n-man.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDD02.7090101@redhat.com> <1124851456.4515.100.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDF74.2040104@redhat.com> <1124852007.4515.110.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <604aa7910508232029617b3491@mail.gmail.com> <430BF158.1080603@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124858956.4515.179.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 23:02 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > We Want: > 1. The Foundation to have full power over the name "Fedora" without > the threat of future legal issues > ... > The Problems: > 1. The Shadowman trademark presents a figure wearing a Fedora hat > 2. The Fedora name is similar in meaning to Red Hat, and refers to > the type of hat worn by Shadowman Okay, so you know where I'm coming from. That's good, thanx for being the _first_person_ to actually respond to my concerns. > Why the Problems aren't Problems (and how): > 1. If Red Hat transfers ownership of "Fedora" to the Foundation, it > cannot later revoke that right, meaning that we never have to worry > about threats to the name. Since the trademark is already established, > it will be difficult, if not impossible, to challenge successfully. > This is true from the perspective of any organization, not just Red Hat. Agreed. > 2. Any use of a hat in the logo would resemble the Shadowman logo, > to which the Foundation will get no special rights. Due to the > relationship between the Foundation and Red Hat, it would be easy to > challenge any use of a hat. This is why we cannot use a hat in the logo. > 3. From a legal standpoint, there is no relationship between the > word "Fedora" and hats. "Fedora" is just a name, and a hat is just a > hat. Holding the Fedora trademark grants the Foundation no special > right to the usage of hats in images. Therefore, the name is irrelevant > with regards to allowing us to infringe upon the Shadowman trademark. > 4. As a reverse point of (3), Red Hat cannot claim that the "Fedora" > name has anything to do with the appearance of a hat in their Shadowman > logo. They cannot say that the "Fedora" trademark infringes upon the > Shadowman trademark. But what if another entity uses a name of a hat? > With the workings of the U.S. court system, the initial decisions > regarding what rights go where are likely to be upheld by courts in the > future. It will be hard for Red Hat to come back many years down the > road and claim that something they allow now should not have been > permitted. The reverse is also true. > It is unlikely that Red Hat saw this exact sequence of events coming. I know, otherwise they might have considered not using the same name from the University of Hawaii project. ;-> > We can argue that Fedora should have been named something else in the > future. It can easily be agreed that Fedora was probably not the best > choice of a name and that it does create some (minor) complications. Okay, so you're seeing my points. > However, the name is now established and any shortcomings can be > overcome. It may seem silly that we cannot use a hat with a name like > Fedora, but it is the way things have fallen. There is no need to > change any names or existing trademarks. We simply need to choose a > logo that does not have a hat. With the popularity of alternative > ideas, there is no reason to complain about this. If Red Hat(R) legal feels secure in its giving up control of the "Fedora (TM)" trademark, but not worrying about another entity using a similar hat name, illustration, etc... and using the "Fedora(TM)" as an argument, I guess that's their viewpoint. I just guess I feared otherwise. Not demonizing Red Hat at all, they'd have to defend their trademark, and that might leave the Fedora Foundation in a bad fix -- or, worse yet, seeing Red Hat not being able to make its much needed argument to prevent someone from trashing their name with something related to hats. > This thread is now gathering negative attention, so all who have the > best wishes at heart should discontinue this thread. Try to take > everything that has been discussed to heart, and understand that > everything is working out just fine as it is, and there is no need to be > concerned about future problems. Everything has been thoroughly thought > through, and all the little pieces are falling perfectly into place. Thank you for being the first person who addressed this by finally acknowledging what I was getting at. That's all I wanted. I will not bring it up again. And that includes not considering any hat for the Fedora mascot. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 05:30:11 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:00:11 +0530 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 14, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: <1124853623.15466.381.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <20050820173157.13525CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> <430769CD.4010405@redhat.com> <1124853623.15466.381.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <430C05E3.9050005@redhat.com> Colin Charles wrote: >On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 23:05 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>asked questions. As I told in this before Fedora guide and Fedora >>FAQ >>authors are already communicating about colloboration. I will post >>more >>details when I have them >> >> > >What Fedora Guide? fedoraguide.org ? > > Ha. Glad you asked. http://www.evolutioncolt.com/fedoraguide/ regards Rahul From mschwendt at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 08:49:33 2005 From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:49:33 +0200 Subject: Logo -- expanding the element idea more ... Fc, Fe, Fl, etc... In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082316054872d235@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d27050823130123b09fd1@mail.gmail.com> <20050823224303.8891.qmail@web34107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <604aa79105082316054872d235@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <440f31f60508240149577f14c6@mail.gmail.com> The capital white 'F' on blue background browser icon, as used at fedora.redhat.com, fedoraproject.org or fedoraforum.de, is a very good example of a clear and memorable symbol. Its only drawback is that since it contains the letter F, it doesn't look so nice anymore when being put next to a logo like Fedora Project or Fedora Extras, which would make it look like "F Fedora Project". It's a bit like "N Novell SUSE Linux" would look. Something abstract like Ubuntu's three people holding hands has an advantage. Do we have a big (i.e. 80x80 or 100x100) version of that 'F' logo already? From mschwendt at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 09:08:12 2005 From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:08:12 +0200 Subject: Logo -- dog wearing fedora hat with blue gradient "box" in front, then zoom in on box ... In-Reply-To: <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <440f31f60508240208a9090b7@mail.gmail.com> On 24/08/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > Why did Red Hat stick with the name "Fedora" if it can't be a hat??? > > Maybe a different name would be better, but it's a little late for that. Why a different name which would likely kill any connection with Red Hat? And why another hat? Surely a blue hat cord or plume/feather would do as well. (inspiration> http://www.myjanee.com/tuts/branches/feather.jpg ) From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Aug 24 09:12:04 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:12:04 +0300 Subject: Logo -- dog wearing fedora hat with blue gradient "box" in front, then zoom in on box ... In-Reply-To: <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <430C39E4.6070906@nicubunu.ro> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > Why did Red Hat stick with the name "Fedora" if it can't be a hat??? As a personal project, I started a page containing some hat images http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats/ Those does not resemble the Shadowman logo in shape or color nor intend to became official logos for the Fedora Project (and to the best of my knowledge does not infringe any trademark). They are just some images made by me and made freely available on the internet for anyone to use on whatever project they like. -- nicu my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From mschwendt at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 09:42:49 2005 From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:42:49 +0200 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <440f31f6050824024210601529@mail.gmail.com> On 24/08/05, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > The name "Fedora(TM)" itself is already a big-ass problem for Red Hat > Legal if that happens! Because Shadow Man wears a Red Fedora! No, that are two entirely different things. Same in the following: > I mean, at what point can't another vendor call their distro "Gangster" > and put on a Gangster Fedora hat in the illustration? You're mixing trademarked names and trademarked logos/symbols, and that leads to nothing. It would make no sense for Red Hat to create a confusing similarity between the "Red Hat" product line and the "Fedora" product line by mixing red hats with blue fedoras or red fedoras with blue hats or something like that, and using less restrictive trademark usage permissions for the Fedora stuff than for the Red Hat stuff. And I said confusing (!) similarity, not just similarity. It can be beneficial for both Red Hat and Fedora that it is widely known that Red Hat is a driving force behind the Fedora Project, too. But it would not do Red Hat Enterprise Linux any good if its fundamental differences compared with Fedora got buried in confusing usage of words, names, trademarks, mascots, and neither the red hat nor Shadow Man would be unique anymore. Of course, another vendor can call a distribution "Gangster", if that is desired. But as soon as they start using and advertising a logo which bears any close resemblance with Red Hat's "Shadow Man"(TM), in particular the red hat (!) he wears, they've got a problem, even if they choose a different colour. Also note that Shadow Man wears a cloak, but that does not prohibit any vendor from using a figure which wears a cloak, too (unless the resemblance becomes too obvious, and at that point we're in a loop). From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 24 09:50:38 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 04:50:38 -0500 Subject: Logo -- dog, tag (with element), but no hat? In-Reply-To: <440f31f6050824024210601529@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <440f31f6050824024210601529@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <430C42EE.7040105@n-man.com> Michael Schwendt wrote: >On 24/08/05, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > >>The name "Fedora(TM)" itself is already a big-ass problem for Red Hat >>Legal if that happens! Because Shadow Man wears a Red Fedora! >> >> > >No, that are two entirely different things. Same in the following: > > > >>I mean, at what point can't another vendor call their distro "Gangster" >>and put on a Gangster Fedora hat in the illustration? >> >> > >You're mixing trademarked names and trademarked logos/symbols, and >that leads to nothing. It would make no sense for Red Hat to create a >confusing similarity between the "Red Hat" product line and the >"Fedora" product line by mixing red hats with blue fedoras or red >fedoras with blue hats or something like that, and using less >restrictive trademark usage permissions for the Fedora stuff than for >the Red Hat stuff. And I said confusing (!) similarity, not just >similarity. It can be beneficial for both Red Hat and Fedora that it >is widely known that Red Hat is a driving force behind the Fedora >Project, too. But it would not do Red Hat Enterprise Linux any good if >its fundamental differences compared with Fedora got buried in >confusing usage of words, names, trademarks, mascots, and neither the >red hat nor Shadow Man would be unique anymore. Of course, another >vendor can call a distribution "Gangster", if that is desired. But as >soon as they start using and advertising a logo which bears any close >resemblance with Red Hat's "Shadow Man"(TM), in particular the red hat >(!) he wears, they've got a problem, even if they choose a different >colour. Also note that Shadow Man wears a cloak, but that does not >prohibit any vendor from using a figure which wears a cloak, too >(unless the resemblance becomes too obvious, and at that point we're >in a loop). > >-- >Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > This thread has already forked down that road and died. I BEG you not to rekindle that fire. See the thread "Re: Logo -- let's move on ... the legal loophole of "Fedora(TM)" for Red Hat" for the whole conversation. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 13:29:08 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Why no hat? Here's why. In-Reply-To: <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: Bryan, Here's my "simple" explanation: 1. When Red Hat decided to create the Fedora project, not a lot of thought was given to the once-and-future logo. The reason we're having the logo discussion now is because the type treatment "logo" we have now is sufficiently un-logo-like that people are creating their own logos left and right. So, yes: we've got a project named Fedora, and we need a logo that is not a hat. And yes, it's weird and frustrating, but non-negotiable, because... 2. Red Hat, the company that will be paying for a *ton* of Fedora development for the foreseeable future, *strongly* prefers that Fedora not use a straight-up hat. Out of respect for the relationship with Red Hat, and the resources that Red Hat provides and will continue to provide, the Fedora project will not use a straight-up hat. Is it a legal issue? Maybe there's some legal risk involved, but it's really a branding issue. Red Hat has spent a ton of blood, sweat and tears to make that red fedora worth what it's worth, they don't want any confusion to arise regarding that mark, and we're going to respect that stance. 3. For right now, Red Hat *does* own the Fedora trademark, and it's still not entirely clear whether ownership of the mark will be (a) handed to the Fedora foundation, or (b) licensed very broadly to the Fedora foundation for its use. But again: it's not a legal issue. It's an issue of respecting our largest sponsor's wishes. Red Hat wants Fedora not to use a hat; therefore, Fedora will not use a hat. --g (NOTE: clever treatments of secondary Fedora images that involve a hat as an element may well be a different matter.) _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 21:13 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > But it's called _Fedora_. What do you mean no hat?!?!?! > > Let me put it this way, and explain it to me like a 2-year old. > > First off, let's start with ... > > "Fedora(TM) is a trademark of Red Hat, Inc." > > The name "Fedora(TM)" would be considered "infringement" from a legal > standpoint if it came from another vendor. But it comes from Red Hat! > > So I'm still _failing_ to understand how the use of a trademarked word > that basically says "hat" is any different than a trademarked > illustration of the same damn thing. > > Especially under these context: > http://www.fedora.redhat.com/about/trademarks/ > http://www.fedora.redhat.com/about/trademarks/guidelines/ > > If Red Hat is going to give up control of the trademark, I still _fail_ > to see the difference. If Red Hat is going to assert it cannot allow > another use of a "hat" in a logo by the Fedora Foundation or whatever > entity that "owns" its governance, then how can it assert the use of > even the word "Fedora(TM)" outside of Red Hat's control at all? > > Again, explain this to me like a 2-year old? > > Is Red Hat going to maintain it owns the trademark of Fedora(TM) in the > future, and the guidelines of its use? > > If so, then why can they do the same with an illustration? > > And if not, is not even the word "Fedora(TM)" going to be a possible > point and example of use without permission? Or is Red Hat going to > give permission? > > And if so, then why can't they do the same with an illustration? > > Again, IANAL, but this doesn't make sense to me. > > > -- > Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if > you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 14:29:46 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:29:46 -0500 Subject: Logo -- yes, I dropped it ... In-Reply-To: <430C42EE.7040105@n-man.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BB76A.9080106@n-man.com> <1124846918.4515.33.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124848637.10409.160.camel@erato.phig.org> <1124849279.4515.61.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <440f31f6050824024210601529@mail.gmail.com> <430C42EE.7040105@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1124893786.4772.47.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 04:50 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > This thread has already forked down that road and died. I BEG you not > to rekindle that fire. See the thread "Re: Logo -- let's move on ... > the legal loophole of "Fedora(TM)" for Red Hat" for the whole > conversation. Yes, I dropped it after Patrick was the first person who actually addressed my statements, instead of assuming I was being argumentative. I just had an "epiphany" in the middle of the "hat discussion." I'm not going to comment further. And everyone needs to stop assuming I don't have a very deep chronology of Red Hat's history. E.g., from an old, work-in-progress FAQ (stopped writing last year): http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/RH-Distribution-FAQ-3.html http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/RH-Distribution-FAQ-4.html#ss4.3 That was based on my 1st hand experience of seeing many things. I'm also working on a book entitled "Linux Configuration Management" which focuses on FC/RHEL roll-outs. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 15:06:45 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? Message-ID: This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona. She sent in a letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that makes me weep inside. What do we have to say to her? --g -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [CM] RE: Red Hat | Training News | Americas | August 2005 Date: 24 Aug 2005 14:58:40 -0000 From: azgjudy at azgalaxyonline.com To: CC: Support Dear Red Hat, I hope you will get this e-mail. I am a single user computer person. I put yes down - so I could receive your e-mails. To tell you the truth I do not know why. Your main emphasis seems to be on business. I switched from Windows because I thought it would be safer and healthier all the way round. To tell you the truth I feel totally lost in your system. I cannot use my CDs that have games. I downloaded a game I had paid for. No way could I get it to work. I wrote to Linux Game. Their directions were like Greek, and I only speak English. I tried to download the anti-virus I use. They have a version for Linux. No way did I get that. I looked into your training, but that is extremely costly. I have bought books. It all come s down to the fact There is little I am able to do with Linux. Mostly I would like to have a plug-in that works, as to the fact there are many things I am unable to open, including some mail, because I can find no way to do it. Dear Red Hat - what are you doing for us little people out here? I am no further today than I was the day this was installed. Thank you, Judy D. ---- Original Message ---- From: redhat at info.redhat.com To: azgjudy at azgalaxyonline.com Subject: RE: Red Hat | Training News | Americas | August 2005 Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:36:21 -0000 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Red Hat | Training News | August 2005 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >* August trivia question >* Summer gear promotion almost over >* Training press: What certification means to you (Certification > Magazine) >* Red Hat news: Red Hat Network adds monitoring tool, Solaris support > >* South American training news: "Capacitar para progresar" (Latin > Source Tech) >* Ask the expert: Red Hat Training Q & A >* Tips from RHCEs: Remote controlled desktops without VNC > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >AUGUST TRIVIA QUESTION: > >Late last year CertCities.com picked Red Hat Certified Engineer >(RHCE) >as the _____ hottest IT certification for 2005. > >A) 1st >B) 3rd >C) 5th >D) 10th >E) None of the above > >[Stumped? Answer appears at the bottom of this newsletter.] >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~ > >SUMMER GEAR PROMOTION ALMOST OVER: SURF'S UP WITH RED HAT TRAINING > >Improve your skills, increase your career performance, and get Red >Hat >summer gear. Sign up for select summer North American training >courses >and receive: > >* Shadowman boogie board >* Flip-flops >* Visor >* Oversize beach towel >* Kite >* Frisbee > >--> View the gear and learn more about this limited time offer. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai17 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~~ > >TRAINING PRESS: WHAT CERTIFICATION MEANS TO YOU (CERTIFICATION >MAGAZINE) > >"[M]ost qualified candidates feel that their experience speaks for >itself, but as Linux becomes more prevalent in the corporate >environment, more potential employers are looking for certifications >as >a benchmark of the candidate's knowledge and experience in skill sets >relevant to the job at hand. This month, I'll help you to understand >which certifications corporations are looking for - and why." > >--> Read the full article. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai10 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >RED HAT NEWS: RED HAT NETWORK ADDS MONITORING TOOL, SOLARIS SUPPORT >(ENTERPRISE NETWORKING PLANET) > >"Red Hat has announced a new monitoring tool it says will support >Sun's >Solaris as well as its own Linux offerings. The Red Hat Network >Monitoring Module is built on the company's Red Hat Network (RHN), a >web-based systems management tool used to monitor and schedule >updates >for subscribed Red Hat Enterprise Linux systems. RHN allows >administrators to track errata for their systems, create common >software >profiles for groups of systems, and allow for rollback of problematic >updates. The RHN Monitoring Module adds four key pieces of >functionality..." > >--> Read the full article. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai14 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~ > >SOUTH AMERICA TRAINING NEWS > >--> Article: "Capacitar para progresar": >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai15 > >--> South American course schedule and special offers. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai4 > >Email capacitacion at latinsourcetech.com for further information. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >ASK THE EXPERT: Red Hat Training Q & A > >Q: I am a computer software engineer and I have Linux+, OCA (Oracle >Certified Association), and OCP (Oracle Certified Professional) >certifications. I am familiar with Red Hat and I want to improve my >job >position. Can a Red Hat certification help enhance my career and get >me >a job with a large international company? > >Best Regards, >Alireza Rahmani > >A: Thanks for your question Alireza. While it's impossible to ensure >that any professional certification will universally lead to >promotions, >increased responsibility, or high-paying positions with large >companies, >industry analysts agree that RHCT and RHCE are both likely to boost >your >employment options and overall career standing. Recently, >Certification >Magazine and Fairfield Research ranked the RHCE the most valuable >certificaiton in all of IT. In addition, according to numerous >industry >surveys, Red Hat certifications are one of a handful of IT >credentials >that command double digit annual salary increases. > >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai12 > >So while nobody can guarantee that a certification will lead to >automatic career success, most would agree that RHCT and RHCE are >guarantees of competency that resonate with colleagues and employers >alike. > >-->Submit a question. > ask-the-expert at redhat.com >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >TIPS FROM RHCEs: REMOTE CONTROLLED DESKTOPS WITHOUT VNC > >In Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 the GNOME desktop is provided with a >vnc >like service called vino. It will allow a vnc client to remotely >control the logged in users native GNOME desktop and enable desktop >sharing. > >--> Read more. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai9 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >TRIVIA QUESTION ANSWER: > >B) 3rd > >In December, CertCities.com ranked Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE) >as >the third hottest IT certification for 2005. > >-> Read the full article here. >http://info.redhat.com/a/tBDCzLwAUfRoFAYV5P3AT-kh4gt/trai11 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~ > >Want From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 16:06:01 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:06:01 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > What do we have to say to her? Honestly.. I'll tell her that perhaps linux is not right for her... and to check out other for-pay linux distributions which include proprietary technology instead of being completely open source. Moving to completely open source solutions has an opportunity cost, you either value the benefits of open source over the costs or you don't... and that determination comes down to personal situations. I'd also tell her that crossing any operating system boundary has a portability price associated with. The price is higher when you crossing from proprietary to an open vendor. And while there are some technical solution which help.. there is no universal solution to the problem..either for proprietary binary portability or proprietary content portability. For binary portability...anyone walking into the process of 'major' operating system change certaintly needs to expect to have to stop using some binary applications that you were using in the previous operating system. While wine and winex do a good job at helping get access to some windows applications.. they are not universal solutions... just like virtualPC was never a perfect solution. I think point-blank statement about binary compatibility from windows to linux is a very sensible statement to make upfront and I think most people would find that sort of expectation adjustment reasonable. Whether or not wine or winex are helpful solution to this particular person's game problem is a matter of specifics. As for configuration of wine, until someone takes up the challenge again inside RedHat or Fedora to start integration work, its not going to get any easier for the average Fedora or RedHat user to configure wine. As to the anti-virus issue, without knowing the specific vendor there isn't much to say or discuss. Generally speaking, at some point the packaging standardization discussion that is on-going at fedora-packaging is going to have to expand to include proprietary software vendors who are trying to keep up. For proprietary content portability, things like attachments in proprietary formats..or web content such as flash or multimedia, there is some long term hope that open source can re-engineer open solutions as demand for access to this content grows, but such efforts are continually hampered by political and legal issues. This one is the really tough nut. Its completely rational to expect to be able to access your data regardless of what operating system its own..or to access content on the web regardless of your choice of browser or operating system...or hardware. That is every user's dream..every open source developers dream. But some intellectual property laws make it extremely difficult for the open source vendors to make this work widely available without risking a legal assault. There are only 3 ways to make this situation better. 1) RedHat stops being an open source solution provider and licences proprietary technology from other vendors. For every person that would like to see this happen there is another one who would be disappointed. This is a zero-sum game. 2) Technology vendors properly support and embrace the open source community, market share catch-22 3) Laws change so that open source developers and vendors can provide technical solutions without risk of lawsuits due to concerns such as software patents. When I run for US senate, I expect everyone in this community to be donating to my campaign. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 16:09:08 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This is a thoughtful response, Jef. Do you think Sue will understand it? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > What do we have to say to her? > > Honestly.. I'll tell her that perhaps linux is not right for her... > and to check out other for-pay linux distributions which include > proprietary technology instead of being completely open source. Moving > to completely open source solutions has an opportunity cost, you > either value the benefits of open source over the costs or you > don't... and that determination comes down to personal situations. > I'd also tell her that crossing any operating system boundary has a > portability price associated with. The price is higher when you > crossing from proprietary to an open vendor. And while there are some > technical solution which help.. there is no universal solution to the > problem..either for proprietary binary portability or proprietary > content portability. > > For binary portability...anyone walking into the process of 'major' > operating system change certaintly needs to expect to have to stop > using some binary applications that you were using in the previous > operating system. While wine and winex do a good job at helping get > access to some windows applications.. they are not universal > solutions... just like virtualPC was never a perfect solution. I > think point-blank statement about binary compatibility from windows to > linux is a very sensible statement to make upfront and I think most > people would find that sort of expectation adjustment reasonable. > > Whether or not wine or winex are helpful solution to this particular > person's game problem is a matter of specifics. As for configuration > of wine, until someone takes up the challenge again inside RedHat or > Fedora to start integration work, its not going to get any easier for > the average Fedora or RedHat user to configure wine. As to the > anti-virus issue, without knowing the specific vendor there isn't much > to say or discuss. Generally speaking, at some point the packaging > standardization discussion that is on-going at fedora-packaging is > going to have to expand to include proprietary software vendors who > are trying to keep up. > > For proprietary content portability, things like attachments in > proprietary formats..or web content such as flash or multimedia, there > is some long term hope that open source can re-engineer open solutions > as demand for access to this content grows, but such efforts are > continually hampered by political and legal issues. This one is the > really tough nut. Its completely rational to expect to be able to > access your data regardless of what operating system its own..or to > access content on the web regardless of your choice of browser or > operating system...or hardware. That is every user's dream..every open > source developers dream. But some intellectual property laws make it > extremely difficult for the open source vendors to make this work > widely available without risking a legal assault. > > There are only 3 ways to make this situation better. > 1) RedHat stops being an open source solution provider and licences > proprietary technology from other vendors. For every person that would > like to see this happen there is another one who would be > disappointed. This is a zero-sum game. > > 2) Technology vendors properly support and embrace the open source community, > market share catch-22 > > 3) Laws change so that open source developers and vendors can provide > technical solutions without risk of lawsuits due to concerns such as > software patents. > When I run for US senate, I expect everyone in this community to be > donating to my campaign. > > > -jef > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 16:11:50 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050824161150.83287.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona. > She sent in a letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that > makes me weep inside. > What do we have to say to her? Oh, this is a simple one. 1. Terminology 2. Red Hat provides services, but Linux is a community 3. Linux software on Windows First off, you explain that you apologize but there is a great shift in terminology from Windows to UNIX-like systems including Linux. This is often part of the learning curve, much like a Macintosh can be for a Windows user as well. Secondly, you explain that Red Hat services, including business, are often for a price, just as Microsoft services are. But both are geared towards business. But the great think about Linux, unlike Windows, is that there community of users -- most likely already local to her -- that are more than willing to help her for free. [ Send her info on her local Linux user group ] Third, you can point out that Linux can run on Windows, in the form of spyware-free, virus-free Free Software like Firefox, OpenOffice.org, etc... If she is finding the interface and greek of a UNIX-like system too much, she can greatly benefit from running a lot of the Linux software on Windows, instead of going directly to Linux today. And because she will be saving all new data in all new formats, when she eventually does switch to Linux, the transition will be much easier. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 16:18:10 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050824161810.92177.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > 3) Laws change so that open source developers and vendors > can provide technical solutions without risk of lawsuits due > to concerns such as software patents. When I run for US > senate, I expect everyone in this community to be > donating to my campaign. As long as you are promoting "open standards." I'm a huge proponent in mandating "open standards." I'm also a huge proponent of "open source." But I would never mandate "open source." I think if you mandate "open standards," open source stands quite well on its own. And if it doesn't, then that's a problem with the open source and no regulation is going to fix that. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From stuart at elsn.org Wed Aug 24 16:21:38 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:21:38 +0100 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:06:01 -0400, "Jeff Spaleta" said: > On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > What do we have to say to her? > > Honestly.. I'll tell her that perhaps linux is not right for her... > and to check out other for-pay linux distributions which include > proprietary technology instead of being completely open source. Moving > to completely open source solutions has an opportunity cost, you > either value the benefits of open source over the costs or you > don't... and that determination comes down to personal situations. > I'd also tell her that crossing any operating system boundary has a > portability price associated with. The price is higher when you > crossing from proprietary to an open vendor. And while there are some > technical solution which help.. there is no universal solution to the > problem..either for proprietary binary portability or proprietary > content portability. I think this is a model worth looking at - CodeWeavers' "Truth in Advertising: Real Dirt": http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/truth_in_advertising/the_real_dirt/ They say straight out in a simple language "What works well" *and* "What sort of works" and "What doesn't work" As Jeff says, we can't provide binary compatibility. Maybe we can make a plus point of being absolutely straight about these kinds of things and differentiating Fedora from those who say "Linux is ready for the desktop", without talking about the trade-offs that users must make. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 16:32:27 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Like this idea a lot. I'm not interested in being all things to all people, because we can't do that. I'm very interested in making it clear that we *do* provide a good experience for a *lot* of people, and also making it clear what's important to us, and why. Truth in advertising must be a part of the Fedora brand, imho. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:06:01 -0400, "Jeff Spaleta" > said: > > On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > What do we have to say to her? > > > > Honestly.. I'll tell her that perhaps linux is not right for her... > > and to check out other for-pay linux distributions which include > > proprietary technology instead of being completely open source. Moving > > to completely open source solutions has an opportunity cost, you > > either value the benefits of open source over the costs or you > > don't... and that determination comes down to personal situations. > > I'd also tell her that crossing any operating system boundary has a > > portability price associated with. The price is higher when you > > crossing from proprietary to an open vendor. And while there are some > > technical solution which help.. there is no universal solution to the > > problem..either for proprietary binary portability or proprietary > > content portability. > > I think this is a model worth looking at - CodeWeavers' "Truth in > Advertising: Real Dirt": > > http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/truth_in_advertising/the_real_dirt/ > > They say straight out in a simple language "What works well" *and* "What > sort of works" and "What doesn't work" > > As Jeff says, we can't provide binary compatibility. Maybe we can make a > plus point of being absolutely straight about these kinds of things and > differentiating Fedora from those who say "Linux is ready for the > desktop", without talking about the trade-offs that users must make. > > > -- > > Stuart Ellis > > stuart at elsn.org > > Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > > GPG key ID: 7098ABEA > GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 16:48:36 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:48:36 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910508240948513f097d@mail.gmail.com> On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > This is a thoughtful response, Jef. > > Do you think Sue will understand it? no.. unless the first letter of each paragraph is replaced with a graphic of a puppy standing next to the capital letter..making an appropriate face to display the emotional tone of the paragraph. And certaintly not, unless someone goes back and corrects my grammar. I really don't think anyone sitting in the 1% tail of geekdom..like myself..is ever..ever.. going to be able to communicate "what,why,how" of this open source thing to someone who sits in the middle of the curve. Whatever monkey noises I make is going to have to pass through the hands of someone who lives in each standard deviation as it makes its way into digestable form for the mean. -jef"and wasn't her name Judy?"spaleta From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 16:51:25 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910508240948513f097d@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910508240948513f097d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You're quite right. Her name was Judy. I was referring to her daughter Sue, who has an iPod surgically affixed to her skull. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > This is a thoughtful response, Jef. > > > > Do you think Sue will understand it? > > no.. unless the first letter of each paragraph is replaced with a > graphic of a puppy standing next to the capital letter..making an > appropriate face to display the emotional tone of the paragraph. > And certaintly not, unless someone goes back and corrects my grammar. > > I really don't think anyone sitting in the 1% tail of geekdom..like > myself..is ever..ever.. going to be able to communicate "what,why,how" > of this open source thing to someone who sits in the middle of the > curve. Whatever monkey noises I make is going to have to pass through > the hands of someone who lives in each standard deviation as it makes > its way into digestable form for the mean. > > -jef"and wasn't her name Judy?"spaleta > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 17:05:55 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910508240948513f097d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050824170555.43316.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > This is a thoughtful response, Jef. > Do you think Sue will understand it? Jeff Spaleta wrote: > no.. unless the first letter of each paragraph is replaced > with a graphic of a puppy standing next to the capital > letter.. I really don't think anyone sitting in the 1% tail > of geekdom.. I'm kinda wondering why no one has commented, whether positive or negative, on my response. I put it in 3 straight points. I wear a suit daily because I deal with suits, while at the same time, I have to take my jacket off and loosen my tie because I'm also often in a room for part of the day where I'm the only person not wearing jeans or shorts! -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From lrolatti at racine.ra.it Wed Aug 24 15:51:13 2005 From: lrolatti at racine.ra.it (Luigi Rolatti) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:51:13 +0200 Subject: Ssubscript Message-ID: <000c01c5a8c3$aa12e020$3c01a8c0@CECILIA> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 17:14:19 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <20050824170555.43316.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050824170555.43316.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bryan: I sent your response to her, slightly edited. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > This is a thoughtful response, Jef. > > Do you think Sue will understand it? > > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > no.. unless the first letter of each paragraph is replaced > > with a graphic of a puppy standing next to the capital > > letter.. I really don't think anyone sitting in the 1% > tail > > of geekdom.. > > I'm kinda wondering why no one has commented, whether > positive or negative, on my response. > > I put it in 3 straight points. > > I wear a suit daily because I deal with suits, while at the > same time, I have to take my jacket off and loosen my tie > because I'm also often in a room for part of the day where > I'm the only person not wearing jeans or shorts! > > > -- > Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail > mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any > http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From webmanagement at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 17:50:32 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andrew Hudson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:50:32 +0100 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430CB368.9060207@gmail.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona. She sent in a > letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that makes me weep inside. > > What do we have to say to her? > > --g > > Dear Red Hat, I hope you will get this e-mail. I am a single user > computer person. I put yes down - so I could receive your e-mails. > To tell you the truth I do not know why. Your main emphasis seems to > be on business. I switched from Windows because I thought it would > be safer and healthier all the way round. To tell you the truth I > feel totally lost in your system. I cannot use my CDs that have > games. I downloaded a game I had paid for. No way could I get it to > work. I wrote to Linux Game. Their directions were like Greek, and > I only speak English. I tried to download the anti-virus I use. > They have a version for Linux. No way did I get that. I looked > into your training, but that is extremely costly. I have bought > books. It all come s down to the fact There is little I am able to > do with Linux. Mostly I would like to have a plug-in that works, as > to the fact there are many things I am unable to open, including some > mail, because I can find no way to do it. Dear Red Hat - what are > you doing for us little people out here? I am no further today than > I was the day this was installed. Thank you, Judy D. > Greg, I feel your pain on this one - here is someone who has heard all of the good things about Linux and Fedora but cannot translate what she has heard into a useable system for her. As Jeff mentioned, he feels that he is in the 1% tail of geekdom which will never be able to translate the tech speak into everyday terms. Why don't we take this opportunity to ask Judy/Sue/whoever about the barriers that she actually came up against - did she go to Google and be over-run with the many countless options available? One of the things people enjoy is belonging - if we could convince Judy/Sue and perhaps a couple of other total newbies to 'reality check' documentation such as the installation guide then that would be worth a fortune to Fedora and the FDP. Emphasise that this is important to us - it's obviously important to Judy/Sue to succeed in Linux! I'm going to suggest a moving to Fedora from Windows FAQ for absolute newbies, but I'm going to do this on the docs-list. Thanks, Andrew From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 17:53:41 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:23:41 +0530 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430CB368.9060207@gmail.com> References: <430CB368.9060207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <430CB425.5010301@redhat.com> HI > > I'm going to suggest a moving to Fedora from Windows FAQ for absolute > newbies, but I'm going to do this on the docs-list. A more comprehensive guide with a list of equivalent applications, how to migrate data etc would be quite useful. Lets focus on that regards Rahul From webmanagement at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 18:03:30 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andrew Hudson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:03:30 +0100 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430CB425.5010301@redhat.com> References: <430CB368.9060207@gmail.com> <430CB425.5010301@redhat.com> Message-ID: <430CB672.7090501@gmail.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > HI > >> >> I'm going to suggest a moving to Fedora from Windows FAQ for absolute >> newbies, but I'm going to do this on the docs-list. > > > A more comprehensive guide with a list of equivalent applications, how > to migrate data etc would be quite useful. Lets focus on that > > regards > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > Rahul, A more comprehensive list opens up the fear factor for newbies - do I really want to include things like MS Exchange replacements, SQL Server replacements etc etc when all the end user wants to know is where did Word go? If we were to provide a comprehensive list then it suddenly becomes more daunting when the new user gets hold of it. I agree in principle that a comprehensive list of Linux alternatives to popular Windows based software is a good idea. I just think that a sub-set of this could be created with the express purpose of giving someone like Judy/Sue an easy to read introduction that briefly describes each Linux alternative with enough information to get her started and to get her looking for further information elsewhere. Thanks, Andrew From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 18:05:51 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:05:51 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430CB368.9060207@gmail.com> References: <430CB368.9060207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124906751.7693.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 18:50 +0100, Andrew Hudson wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > This is one potential user of Fedora: Judy, from Arizona. She sent in a > > letter to the editor of Red Hat Magazine that makes me weep inside. > > > > What do we have to say to her? > > > > --g > > > > > Dear Red Hat, I hope you will get this e-mail. I am a single user > > computer person. I put yes down - so I could receive your e-mails. > > To tell you the truth I do not know why. Your main emphasis seems to > > be on business. I switched from Windows because I thought it would > > be safer and healthier all the way round. To tell you the truth I > > feel totally lost in your system. I cannot use my CDs that have > > games. I downloaded a game I had paid for. No way could I get it to > > work. I wrote to Linux Game. Their directions were like Greek, and > > I only speak English. I tried to download the anti-virus I use. > > They have a version for Linux. No way did I get that. I looked > > into your training, but that is extremely costly. I have bought > > books. It all come s down to the fact There is little I am able to > > do with Linux. Mostly I would like to have a plug-in that works, as > > to the fact there are many things I am unable to open, including some > > mail, because I can find no way to do it. Dear Red Hat - what are > > you doing for us little people out here? I am no further today than > > I was the day this was installed. Thank you, Judy D. > > > > Greg, > > I feel your pain on this one - here is someone who has heard all of the > good things about Linux and Fedora but cannot translate what she has > heard into a useable system for her. > > As Jeff mentioned, he feels that he is in the 1% tail of geekdom which > will never be able to translate the tech speak into everyday terms. > > Why don't we take this opportunity to ask Judy/Sue/whoever about the > barriers that she actually came up against - did she go to Google and be > over-run with the many countless options available? > > One of the things people enjoy is belonging - if we could convince > Judy/Sue and perhaps a couple of other total newbies to 'reality check' > documentation such as the installation guide then that would be worth a > fortune to Fedora and the FDP. Emphasise that this is important to us - > it's obviously important to Judy/Sue to succeed in Linux! I posted to f-docs-l with some suggestion about how to leverage this into the Mentoring program but I guess the reply has gone out already... I may contact her directly with an offer of help. Although that doesn't solve the problem, it gets us in touch with someone who can help us (Docs team) understand what people want first, second, etc. > I'm going to suggest a moving to Fedora from Windows FAQ for absolute > newbies, but I'm going to do this on the docs-list. This is not a bad idea, and I think this should be more than just a list of program equivalencies. It would involve explaining what people see, from boot to use case, that differs, and gives them the information they need to understand the critical differences. (Note that this is not the same as, "explain everything about what they see and why it's different. Normal users don't care, they just want to know where to click to make things work.) From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 18:06:39 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:36:39 +0530 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430CB672.7090501@gmail.com> References: <430CB368.9060207@gmail.com> <430CB425.5010301@redhat.com> <430CB672.7090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <430CB72F.5020804@redhat.com> HI >> > Rahul, > > A more comprehensive list opens up the fear factor for newbies - do I > really want to include things like MS Exchange replacements, SQL > Server replacements etc etc when all the end user wants to know is > where did Word go? If we were to provide a comprehensive list then it > suddenly becomes more daunting when the new user gets hold of it. > > I agree in principle that a comprehensive list of Linux alternatives > to popular Windows based software is a good idea. I just think that a > sub-set of this could be created with the express purpose of giving > someone like Judy/Sue an easy to read introduction that briefly > describes each Linux alternative with enough information to get her > started and to get her looking for further information elsewhere. We can initially focus on the desktop uses and add in additional information in a advanced section for other users depending on how useful the guide turns out to be regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 18:09:32 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430CB672.7090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050824180932.26455.qmail@web34103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Andrew Hudson wrote: > A more comprehensive list opens up the fear factor for > newbies - do I really want to include things like MS > Exchange replacements, SQL Server replacements etc etc when > all the end user wants to know is where did Word go? If we > were to provide a comprehensive list then it suddenly > becomes more daunting when the new user gets hold of it. I agree. Don't try to make an "all-in-one" FAQ. Break it up into: - Linux for Windows Users - Linux for Windows Enthusiasts - Linux for Windows Developers - Linux for Windows Internet Administrators - Linux for Windows LAN Administrators - Linux for Windows Database Administrators It's important that you separate Internet and LAN, or even database, concepts. Nothing makes me roll my eyes more than people who only have experience with Internet services trying to help Windows people who run LAN file/print services or ACID databases. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 20:27:42 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:27:42 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> On 8/24/05, Stuart Ellis wrote: > I think this is a model worth looking at - CodeWeavers' "Truth in > Advertising: Real Dirt": > > http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/truth_in_advertising/the_real_dirt/ > > They say straight out in a simple language "What works well" *and* "What > sort of works" and "What doesn't work" I like the differentiation of tangible and intangible benefits as well as the split between instant benefits and long term benefits on the url. For me, and thus I would assume for other techno-socio-liberal geeks, a lot of the decision making as to when and if to jump to linux ends up weighing some of the grander intangibles concerning long-term equitable access to digital information heavily. As a result I am willing to make the dauntingly large sacrifice of no longer being able to play my dusty old copy of X-wing verses Tie-fighter or The Incredible Machine. I drank the Kool-aid, there is no going back for me, I'm quite sure I look like a raving lunatic to most people. My wife on the other hand, uses a computer much more pragmatically. We negotiated a dual-boot arrangement. The machine stays booted into Fedora most of the time. She boots into windows to play a few freebie games (though I've introduced her to wesnoth so thats probably going to change), work with sheet music composition software (the primary reason why a dual boot was needed.. i couldn't find anything adequate as an open source project in this area, I think she's using a cut-down version of Finale), listening to the 30-second clips in itunes pretending she's going to actually purchase something from the store, and on occasion do some photo editting with Picasa (if only Google cranked out useful cross-platform applications). As for the applications she's using the most right now on linux (determined by what is on her screen everytime i pass her computer), the obvious email and web browsing dominate like 90% of her computer usage. Beside that, leading applications include gourmet, alexandria, gnucash and openoffice followed by gweled. She'd probably be doing more photo organizing in either operating system if I didn't have a gallery solution up and running. We are in fact talking about doing something different in terms of archiving photos since the space photos are taking up is now a significant amount of space. But she clearly has an advantage compared to other typical computer users because she has a stark raving lunatic linux nut to ask when she needs to do something new and needs to find an application that works. Actually she has more than that, I'm proactively telling her about 'cool' new projects that I think might interest her. How do we expose that to the general userbase at large? Can we collect 'personal interests' and as things get added to Extras we fire off emails to users who's personal interests overlap with the focus of the new application package? -jef -jef From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 24 21:01:42 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:01:42 -0500 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <430CE036.6070008@n-man.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: >Actually she has more than that, I'm proactively telling her about >'cool' new projects that I think might interest her. How do we expose >that to the general userbase at large? Can we collect 'personal >interests' and as things get added to Extras we fire off emails to >users who's personal interests overlap with the focus of the new >application package? > >-jef >-jef > > > > I think having interests lists is a great idea, but I'm not sure that what you are thinking of is really something we should tackle. What might be good for us is a small set of documents (I'm thinking in the wiki) that go over what users with particular interests might like to look in to. What I'm thinking: /Interests List of various interests /Interests/Photos List of packages and tools to look at for art and photos, eg. The Gimp /Interests/Music List of packages and tools to look at for music playback and editing, eg. audacity /Interests/Cooking List of packages and tools to look at for cooking, eg. krecipes I really don't think that collecting lists of users interests and sending out mailings would work out well. It would take too many resources to manage, IMHO. A third-party, distro-neutral site might be able to do this. At least with this method, people could subscribe to the wiki pages they are interested in. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 21:27:56 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:27:56 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430CE036.6070008@n-man.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> <430CE036.6070008@n-man.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105082414272b5b7478@mail.gmail.com> On 8/24/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > I think having interests lists is a great idea, but I'm not sure that > what you are thinking of is really something we should tackle. What > might be good for us is a small set of documents (I'm thinking in the > wiki) that go over what users with particular interests might like to > look in to. I think you missed my point. I will make it a little clearer. We can write enough documentation to reach from the moon and back...but users have to go read it. Documentation sitting on a website is a passive response which will never reach some of the userbase. Some users are only going to be reached by proactive "notification". Using my wife as another example of this behavior in some users, since she is of course the typical average user... the freebie games she plays in windows are games she gets notified from a little pre-installed taskbar icon. Some sort of online game company HP has a partnership with. Every once in a while the little icon notifies her of a new demo game..she downloads it and plays the few demo levels and is amused. Would she actively search for these things? absolutely not... but because she's being notified of new content (without being overwhelmed. we are talking a notification a week or so) she is made aware of it. > I really don't think that collecting lists of users interests and > sending out mailings would work out well. It would take too many > resources to manage, IMHO. If Eric Meyer's attempt at putting a happy face on the comps for Extras bears fruit.. something of merit might be managable and implementable as a clientside tool which scrapes comps.xml from the yum configuration to notify users of new packages based on their grouping. A neutral entity..is doable..but is an extra upfront burden, because they have to be told about that neutral site.. and then they have to register with that neutral site..and then they have to sift through projects that are in Extras yet..to find things they can actually get reasonable access to and use. A nuetral site.. like freshmeat is exactly what I use to find 'interesting' things.. but I have the skills to build them and package them myself. I've seen far too many people blunder into an addon project and try to rebuild it and get confused to encourage freshmeat watching as THE solution for average computer users. Now the comps based notification approach might not be as fine grained as I might have orignally concieved.. but finding a way to notify users of 'interesting' new packages even by comps group is going to lead to far less confusion than pointing all fedora users to a nuetral site. Since so much effort is going into actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather notify Fedora users of that first and foremost. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 21:32:32 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:32:32 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082414272b5b7478@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> <430CE036.6070008@n-man.com> <604aa79105082414272b5b7478@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> On 8/24/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Since so much effort is going into > actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather > notify Fedora users of that first and foremost. And.. while I'm thinking about it.. there is a second-order effect PR win here. An in-distro tool that users can use to watch "interesting" additions to Extras gives an easy way for users to watch and be excited about the growth of technology IN Fedora. Small reminders to people..people like reviewers who sit and play with Fedora on their workstation and desktop that this is an active, growing community of contributors. -jef From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 24 21:43:29 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:43:29 -0500 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> <430CE036.6070008@n-man.com> <604aa79105082414272b5b7478@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <430CEA01.4000907@n-man.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: >On 8/24/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > >>Since so much effort is going into >>actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather >>notify Fedora users of that first and foremost. >> >> > >And.. while I'm thinking about it.. there is a second-order effect PR >win here. An in-distro tool that users can use to watch "interesting" >additions to Extras gives an easy way for users to watch and be >excited about the growth of technology IN Fedora. Small reminders to >people..people like reviewers who sit and play with Fedora on their >workstation and desktop that this is an active, growing community of >contributors. > >-jef > >-- >Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > If we are talking about a simple notification tool that bases its notifications on something that is configured on the local system, I don't see a problem with it. My concern was with the burden of managing a list and writing the notifications. If it is entirely automated and doesn't require additional management at our end, it might be worth writing a small tool to make it happen. You've got my +1. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From marketing-list at fedoralinks.org Wed Aug 24 20:43:01 2005 From: marketing-list at fedoralinks.org (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:43:01 -0500 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124916181.2762.1.camel@cbcclt02.cbcchome.cbccgroup.com> Jef, FYI I hope you are as much of a lunatic in real life as you are on IRC. On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 16:27 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/24/05, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > I think this is a model worth looking at - CodeWeavers' "Truth in > > Advertising: Real Dirt": > > > > http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/truth_in_advertising/the_real_dirt/ > > > > They say straight out in a simple language "What works well" *and* "What > > sort of works" and "What doesn't work" > > I like the differentiation of tangible and intangible benefits as well > as the split between instant benefits and long term benefits on the > url. For me, and thus I would assume for other techno-socio-liberal > geeks, a lot of the decision making as to when and if to jump to linux > ends up weighing some of the grander intangibles concerning long-term > equitable access to digital information heavily. As a result I am > willing to make the dauntingly large sacrifice of no longer being able > to play my dusty old copy of X-wing verses Tie-fighter or The > Incredible Machine. > > I drank the Kool-aid, there is no going back for me, I'm quite sure I > look like a raving lunatic to most people. My wife on the other hand, > uses a computer much more pragmatically. We negotiated a dual-boot > arrangement. The machine stays booted into Fedora most of the time. > She boots into windows to play a few freebie games (though I've > introduced her to wesnoth so thats probably going to change), work > with sheet music composition software (the primary reason why a dual > boot was needed.. i couldn't find anything adequate as an open source > project in this area, I think she's using a cut-down version of > Finale), listening to the 30-second clips in itunes pretending she's > going to actually purchase something from the store, and on occasion > do some photo editting with Picasa (if only Google cranked out useful > cross-platform applications). As for the applications she's using the > most right now on linux (determined by what is on her screen everytime > i pass her computer), the obvious email and web browsing dominate like > 90% of her computer usage. Beside that, leading applications include > gourmet, alexandria, gnucash and openoffice followed by gweled. She'd > probably be doing more photo organizing in either operating system if > I didn't have a gallery solution up and running. We are in fact > talking about doing something different in terms of archiving photos > since the space photos are taking up is now a significant amount of > space. > > But she clearly has an advantage compared to other typical computer > users because she has a stark raving lunatic linux nut to ask when she > needs to do something new and needs to find an application that works. > Actually she has more than that, I'm proactively telling her about > 'cool' new projects that I think might interest her. How do we expose > that to the general userbase at large? Can we collect 'personal > interests' and as things get added to Extras we fire off emails to > users who's personal interests overlap with the focus of the new > application package? > > -jef > -jef > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- Bob Jensen Linux User http://fedoralinks.org/ From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 24 21:47:30 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:47:30 -0500 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430CEAF2.4090502@n-man.com> Rather than spout off about what we should tell her, I'll take the approach of writing a draft letter: ---- Dear Judy, I am sorry that you have not fully enjoyed your experience with Linux so far. Linux and Windows are drastically different operating systems, and it can be a frustrating change when you are just starting. One of the complaints we hear the most is about games that do not work. Because Windows and Linux are different operating systems, Linux cannot run programs that were built for Windows. Many programs, such as Firefox, are built for both. The games that you have on CDs are most likely not built to run on Linux. You can contact the manufacturers to see if they have produced Linux versions. As an alternative, there are many games available for Linux. A lot of these are available as packages for Red Hat's distribution. There is a big advantage here: they're free! If there are games for Windows that you really want to get running, you can look into Transgaming's Cedega. This is a commercial program that may be able to get some of your Windows games running under Linux. As for your anti-virus software, there really isn't much need for anti-virus software on a Linux desktop. That's one security advantage of Linux. If you would feel more comfortable having anti-virus software, ClamAV is readily available and completely free. We understand that you probably don't want to spend a great deal of money to learn Linux. Most Linux users are tech-savvy folks who read information online and use Google a lot. There may, however, be less expensive and easier options for you. You might be able to find basic classes in your area, or you might be able to connect with a local Linux User Group (LUG) that can help you get started or point you to useful resources. We have looked it up, and found the following information for groups in your area: We are always working hard to make Linux systems easier and more intuitive to use. We don't want you to be stuck with Windows because our systems aren't easy enough. There are very large community teams constantly working to make Linux work for you. One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in touch with the community. You'll find that while there are many people who speek what sounds like Greek to you, there are also many average folks out there who are ready to answer your questions and work with you to help you get things done. Forums, IRC chat, and mailing lists are all popular options. We have put together a short list of links to put you in touch with the community. We do understand your frustration, and are working hard to ease the transition. We hope that you will not give up on Linux, and will stick with us as Linux grows. We value feedback like yours to tell us where we need to focus. We look forward to hearing from you again in the future, hopefully with better news. ---- Okay, there's my draft. Do with it as you will. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 21:57:46 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> <430CE036.6070008@n-man.com> <604aa79105082414272b5b7478@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I officially love this idea. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/24/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Since so much effort is going into > > actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather > > notify Fedora users of that first and foremost. > > And.. while I'm thinking about it.. there is a second-order effect PR > win here. An in-distro tool that users can use to watch "interesting" > additions to Extras gives an easy way for users to watch and be > excited about the growth of technology IN Fedora. Small reminders to > people..people like reviewers who sit and play with Fedora on their > workstation and desktop that this is an active, growing community of > contributors. > > -jef > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From stuart at elsn.org Wed Aug 24 22:03:48 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:03:48 +0100 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> <430CE036.6070008@n-man.com> <604aa79105082414272b5b7478@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124921028.3040.32.camel@Vigor10> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 17:32 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/24/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Since so much effort is going into > > actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather > > notify Fedora users of that first and foremost. > > And.. while I'm thinking about it.. there is a second-order effect PR > win here. An in-distro tool that users can use to watch "interesting" > additions to Extras gives an easy way for users to watch and be > excited about the growth of technology IN Fedora. Small reminders to > people..people like reviewers who sit and play with Fedora on their > workstation and desktop that this is an active, growing community of > contributors. RSS ? Fedora already includes custom bookmarks with Firefox, so adding a "live bookmark" would be fairly trivial I guess. We also have fedora-announce as a constantly updating source of content (of interest to tech news junkies at least). FedoraNews is great, and provides an RSS feed as well, although I don't know if it's OK for linking. May or may not be good ideas - I'm just trying to think of low-effort ways this could be done... -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 24 22:11:23 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <1124921028.3040.32.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <20050824221123.13211.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Stuart Ellis wrote: > RSS ? > ... > May or may not be good ideas - I'm just trying to think of > low-effort ways this could be done... Excellent idea. Just have someone come up with a default page for Mozilla, Firefox, etc... that has several RSS feeds. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 22:32:43 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Something I sent to the OpenSUSE list. Message-ID: Something to chew on. Looks like they're running into the same issues we are. I'd like to see them stand with us. --g On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Andreas Girardet wrote: > I don't really see that, since SLES based products like OES contain > commercial software (like edirectory and so on), which requires a > license to be paid. As I said. I would not have any issue in paying a > license for such a central feature like proper media support. I think > that whatever it is there needs to be a way to match what Windows is > offering. If rules are there to stop us to be competitive then the rule > is wrong. If laws prohibit us to be competitive then we need to find a > way to comply to the law either by paying a fee to the copyright holders > or by other means. This needs to be sorted ........ This is where OpenSUSE will need to make a choice, right up front, just like Fedora has. The choice Fedora has made: we will not ship software that is encumbered by patents. Why? Because we believe that software patents are dangerous and wrong. And we consequently run into issues of "contributory infringement" and "don't tell users where to get an MP3 player" and all of that stuff -- just like you're running into right now. Red Hat will ship these features with Red Hat products because Red Hat has no choice -- paying customers expect everything to work out of the box. But the Fedora philosophy is different. Every time a user is unable to play an MP3 file, it's an opportunity to educate. Ogg Vorbis is technically on-par, all of the tools and codecs are completely free, and yet the world uses MP3. Imagine a user clicking on an MP3 file, and a mock-player that comes up and plays a pre-loaded OGG explaining why MP3s suck. And if you decide to pay for the use of the MP3 codec, pay for the ability to ship a tool that converts MP3s to OGGs. It's a hard choice. On the one hand: users. On the other hand: freedom. And it's a choice we make in our world all the time. Choose carefully, and good luck as you move forward. I'm excited to be following along. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 23:07:33 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:07:33 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <1124921028.3040.32.camel@Vigor10> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> <430CE036.6070008@n-man.com> <604aa79105082414272b5b7478@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> <1124921028.3040.32.camel@Vigor10> Message-ID: <604aa79105082416072a2fb26e@mail.gmail.com> > RSS ? Several feeds already exist...take a look at the input feeds at http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/ I'm wary that the amount of information that floats by about all the 'new' packages that enter Extras is overwhelming to the average computer user, and I want to do something primarily to make average users aware of things they are iterested in..without overwhelming them with information about every single perl package that makes it into the tree. I think a trickle of targetted notification can be more useful than a flood about everything that is going on. Just like when we check for updates in yum or up2date, we dont tell users about ALL updates..just the "interesting" ones for the client system. If you want an rss feed of everything that is going on for fc4 extras for example you use... http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/inputs/fc4-extras.xml or http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/extras/4/i386/repodata/index.html the RSS feed is basically similiar to http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/extras/4/i386/repodata/repoview/__latest__.group.html or to what you get by using repo-rss from yum-utils Just for example look at at __latest__-group.html from repoview. How many of those packages are essentially "greek" in Judy-speak to the average user? I appreciate every single item in such a list. I squirrel away that knowledge in the vast storehouse of obtuse linux information that I call the part of my brain not soaked in alcohol. But to my wife, and most likely to the now imfamous Judy, it bet its uninteresting at best and confusing greek at worst. > > Fedora already includes custom bookmarks with Firefox, so adding a "live > bookmark" would be fairly trivial I guess. Yes adding RSS feeds or bookmarks to the relevant fedorainfo and to repoview for users who get hooked and want to go out and actively learn about whats out there. But again I worry about overwhelming the less technical user and I'd like to find a friendly way to expose them to a trickle of new things they have self-selected as falling into an "interesting" group without having them see all the development and system library type packages..until they feel more at home with how things work in linuxland. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 23:10:53 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Aaaand OpenSUSE's response. Message-ID: With my comments inline [with square brackets]. Fascinating, no? ==== > This is where OpenSUSE will need to make a choice, right up front, just > like Fedora has. > > The choice Fedora has made: we will not ship software that is encumbered > by patents. Why? Because we believe that software patents are > dangerous and wrong. And we consequently run into issues of > "contributory infringement" and "don't tell users where to get an MP3 > player" and all of that stuff -- just like you're running into right > now. I am fully behind that strategy for SUSE-oss, but I guess I wonder, why SLES or even the SUSE boxed set (not OSS release), should not contain such a player. We are not like fedora, BTW. I believe this project is very different as we are actually helping to produce the actual commercial release and are not just a testbed with no code relations to the commercial product like Fedora. Hence we should at least think about ways to solve this issue if not in the -oss releases, but in the boxed set or SLES releases. [ Funny how perception works. How can we be a testbed with no code relations? Aren't those notions counter to one another? ] > Red Hat will ship these features with Red Hat products because Red Hat > has no choice -- paying customers expect everything to work out of the > box. But the Fedora philosophy is different. We are not like fedora. We are the precursor of the Enterprise/boxed set products and as such we should think about these issues. And even if they have been discussed before many times, this needs to be solved and discussed again to find a solution that suits our users. After all the reason I do this is to have more and more and more users use SUSE Linux and not something like W*. [ This phrase bears repeating: "We are the precursor of the Enterprise / boxed set products." NOW who's the testbed? ] > Every time a user is unable to play an MP3 file, it's an opportunity to > educate. Ogg Vorbis is technically on- par, all of the tools and codecs > are completely free, and yet the world uses MP3. > > Imagine a user clicking on an MP3 file, and a mock- player that comes up > and plays a pre- loaded OGG explaining why MP3s suck. And if you decide > to pay for the use of the MP3 codec, pay for the ability to ship a tool > that converts MP3s to OGGs. > > It's a hard choice. On the one hand: users. On the other hand: > freedom. And it's a choice we make in our world all the time. If you want to be commercially competitive and if Red Hat does it already (and other distro's) then we must do it too. There is no choice. The user always comes first. And competing with other distro's certainly right after that. After all our official goals are to be more user oriented than other distro's are. [ Interesting. "There is no choice." "Ship MP3 players in our free distro or die." "WE MUST BECOME COMPETITIVE." What this really means is that our message -- software freedom *matters* to the open source community -- can be played in sharp contrast to openSUSE. ] Again Fedora model is not openSUSE model. It is quite different. We actually get to say what is the actual commercial release, but Fedora is codewise not really related to EL. [ It's really interesting how they're copying the Fedora / Red Hat model *exactly*, and yet don't even seem to realize it. The Fedora of today *is* the RHEL of tomorrow -- or at least there's a good 98% overlap -- and yet somehow Andreas perceives that "Fedora is codewise not really related to EL." ] > Choose carefully, and good luck as you move forward. I'm excited to be > following along. :) I am very excited too, even though I probably rather not just follow along, but prefer to be more active. I thoroughly believe that the openSUSE project is an amazing fresh wind in the distro world and will produce amazing SUSE Linux releases, which in time will leave other distro's far behind and really compete with W*, when it comes to innovation, commercial integration and stability. Can't wait for 10.1 where we are actually going to be able to ask and integrate features. And once we have build servers, well I can tell you I am very excited to be following along there ;) ....... and compile my heart out ;) .... [ I fail to see how openSUSE is an amazing fresh wind, but hey. I suppose it's fair to say that I'm biased. :) ] Go SUSE go ... but we still need to discuss and solve this issue! === --g From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 23:21:08 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:21:08 -0400 Subject: Aaaand OpenSUSE's response. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa79105082416214a8b5300@mail.gmail.com> On 8/24/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > With my comments inline [with square brackets]. Fascinating, no? Might i suggest you take what you have learned from this experience and incorporate it into the FedoraMyths wikipage? -jef"did you just start a cross mailinglist flamewar?"spaleta From stuart at elsn.org Thu Aug 25 00:10:40 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 01:10:40 +0100 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa79105082416072a2fb26e@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> <430CE036.6070008@n-man.com> <604aa79105082414272b5b7478@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> <1124921028.3040.32.camel@Vigor10> <604aa79105082416072a2fb26e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1124928641.3040.64.camel@Vigor10> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 19:07 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > RSS ? > > Several feeds already exist...take a look at the input feeds at > http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/ I'd missed those - thanks. > I'm wary that the amount of information that floats by about all the > 'new' packages that enter Extras is overwhelming to the average > computer user, and I want to do something primarily to make average > users aware of things they are iterested in..without overwhelming them > with information about every single perl package that makes it into > the tree. I think a trickle of targetted notification can be more > useful than a flood about everything that is going on. Just like when > we check for updates in yum or up2date, we dont tell users about ALL > updates..just the "interesting" ones for the client system. Yes - I was thinking in terms of the "people like reviewers" point: having RSS feeds of Fedora news there by default may be a nice feature for people actively interested in New Cool Stuff. Although there is vast amounts of Free Software now out there, I wonder how many desktop apps are really polished enough to be promoted to your average pragmatic user ? If we short listed just the stuff in Extras that met certain criteria (usability, stability, desktop integration etc.) we might find that we have a manageable list that changes fairly slowly. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From luya at jpopmail.com Thu Aug 25 07:45:57 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:45:57 -0800 Subject: Logo -- dog wearing fedora hat with blue gradient "box" in front, then zoom in on box ... Message-ID: <20050825074557.DD1EF7B49F@ws5-10.us4.outblaze.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From luya at jpopmail.com Thu Aug 25 07:51:16 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:51:16 -0800 Subject: Logo -- dog wearing fedora hat with blue gradient "box" in front, then zoom in on box ... Message-ID: <20050825075116.C84E87B49F@ws5-10.us4.outblaze.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Aug 25 12:12:47 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:12:47 +1000 Subject: NO meeting this week Message-ID: <1124971967.15466.506.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> In case anyone decides to show up, its bi-monthly remember :) So its next week, just consider it a reminder for *next* week, 1st September 2005 UTC -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Thu Aug 25 13:21:04 2005 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NO meeting this week In-Reply-To: <1124971967.15466.506.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1124971967.15466.506.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Colin Charles wrote: > In case anyone decides to show up, its bi-monthly remember :) ^^^^^^^^^^ Do you mean bi-weekly?! > So its next week, just consider it a reminder for *next* week, 1st > September 2005 UTC > --behdad http://behdad.org/ From mschwendt at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 15:24:10 2005 From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:24:10 +0200 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430CEAF2.4090502@n-man.com> References: <430CEAF2.4090502@n-man.com> Message-ID: <440f31f6050825082476779467@mail.gmail.com> On 24/08/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > One of the complaints we hear the most is about games that do not work. > Because Windows and Linux are different operating systems, Linux cannot > run programs that were built for Windows. Old Linux games don't work either, since newbies simply don't know where to get missing compatibility libraries. > As an alternative, there are > many games available for Linux. A lot of these are available as packages > for Red Hat's distribution. There is a big advantage here: they're free! Please don't turn your reply into a joke. "There are many games available for Linux"? Huh? Really? Linux is not even at the beginning of being a competitor in the games market. > If there are games for Windows that you really want to get running, you > can look into Transgaming's Cedega. This is a commercial program that > may be able to get some of your Windows games running under Linux. Do you have special experience with this to back up your "may be able" theory? I would be very (!) careful with a statement/recommendation like that. > One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in touch > with the community. Right. And seek for a real dialogue, not just poorly written letters which lack any details and give the impression of somebody doing some role-playing. From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 15:36:02 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:06:02 +0530 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <440f31f6050825082476779467@mail.gmail.com> References: <430CEAF2.4090502@n-man.com> <440f31f6050825082476779467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <430DE562.7040909@redhat.com> Michael Schwendt wrote: >On 24/08/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > > >>One of the complaints we hear the most is about games that do not work. >>Because Windows and Linux are different operating systems, Linux cannot >>run programs that were built for Windows. >> >> > >Old Linux games don't work either, since newbies simply don't know >where to get missing compatibility libraries. > > > >>As an alternative, there are >>many games available for Linux. A lot of these are available as packages >>for Red Hat's distribution. There is a big advantage here: they're free! >> >> > >Please don't turn your reply into a joke. "There are many games >available for Linux"? Huh? Really? Linux is not even at the beginning >of being a competitor in the games market. > > They might be not very competitive 3D shooter ones but there are certainly many games for Linux. Apart from ones included in GNOME and KDE, even Fedora Extras has a small collection http://fedoraproject.org/extras/4/i386/repodata/repoview/games.group.html I am sure other gamers could point to you several Linux gaming websites for more. >>If there are games for Windows that you really want to get running, you >>can look into Transgaming's Cedega. This is a commercial program that >>may be able to get some of your Windows games running under Linux. >> >> > >Do you have special experience with this to back up your "may be able" >theory? I would be very (!) careful with a statement/recommendation >like that. > > Why?. Its a well known fact that cedega runs a lot of Windows games. They have a public list http://transgaming.org/gamesdb/ Its a recommendation from one users to another. I dont see a reason to make a big fuss about it >>One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in touch >>with the community. >> >> > >Right. And seek for a real dialogue, not just poorly written letters >which lack any details and give the impression of somebody doing some >role-playing. > > I find your response too harsh in general. If you do have to be critical there are much better ways to go about doing it regards Rahul From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Aug 25 16:13:04 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:13:04 +0800 (WST) Subject: NO meeting this week In-Reply-To: References: <1124971967.15466.506.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <41029.202.72.163.232.1124986384.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> I must have been eager I was there :) -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra > On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Colin Charles wrote: > >> In case anyone decides to show up, its bi-monthly remember :) > ^^^^^^^^^^ > Do you mean bi-weekly?! > >> So its next week, just consider it a reminder for *next* week, 1st >> September 2005 UTC >> > > --behdad > http://behdad.org/ > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Aug 25 17:44:04 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <440f31f6050825082476779467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050825174404.12765.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Michael Schwendt wrote: > Old Linux games don't work either, since newbies simply > don't know where to get missing compatibility libraries. Actually, I disagree. If you do a full install, the compat-libs are just fine. My Fedora Core 3 still seems to run all games going back to Red Hat Linux 7, and a few for Red Hat Linux 6. It's really more of a pre/post GCC 3 / GLibC 2 thing than a Red Hat thing. > Please don't turn your reply into a joke. "There are many > games available for Linux"? Huh? Really? Linux is not even > at the beginning of being a competitor in the games market. Depends on your viewpoint. First off, games are _razor_thin_ margins and it is _not_ a profitable industry unless you do volume. As much as I thank Loki for their attempts, it was a pipe dream. It wasn't because of pirating, God knows I spent $300 on Loki products (and not just the "leftover bin" but _full_price_) and I know others did too. Secondly, Linux _is_ the predominate, leading gaming development platform. The Sony PS2 and Nintendo GameCube development systems are GNU/Linux. And Maya and other 3D tools dominate the mid-to-high-end gaming landscape. The problem is support, not ports. So, lastly, there _are_ a number of game ports for Linux. Yes, some don't come about until the engine releases their code GPL, but others are done under NDA. No, you typically don't get them in the box -- only the Unreal Tournament 2003+ releases seem to ship a Linux binary in the box, but they are found. Linux gaming is the console. I don't see it dominating the desktop. Heck, even my only Windows system in my house is my X-box, and consoles are better. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Aug 25 17:47:16 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430DE562.7040909@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050825174716.14324.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > They might be not very competitive 3D shooter ones but > there are certainly many games for Linux. Excuse me? The Linux binary for Unreal Tournament 2003 and 2004 comes in-the-box. The latest box set has the 64-bit version for Linux which _outperforms_ the 64-bit version for Windows (because of how poorly XP 64-bit Edition works, the 64-bit version for Windows is _slower_ than the 32-bit version). > I am sure other gamers could point to you several Linux > gaming websites for more. There are about 50 major game ports for Linux. Most of them are 2-3 years old before the Linux binary appeared. As far as GPL/Open Source game engines, yes, they are not leading edge. But some of them aren't half-bad. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From nman64 at n-man.com Thu Aug 25 22:19:12 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:19:12 -0500 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <440f31f6050825082476779467@mail.gmail.com> References: <430CEAF2.4090502@n-man.com> <440f31f6050825082476779467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <430E43E0.5090201@n-man.com> Michael Schwendt wrote: >On 24/08/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > > >>One of the complaints we hear the most is about games that do not work. >>Because Windows and Linux are different operating systems, Linux cannot >>run programs that were built for Windows. >> >> > >Old Linux games don't work either, since newbies simply don't know >where to get missing compatibility libraries. > > > I really haven't seen this as a problem. Most games that are available for Linux will run on current Fedora versions, even without compatibility libraries. Take a look at the selection in Extras, and visit happypenguin.org. The few that do require compatibility libraries will usually work on a Fedora full install anyway, thanks to the inclusion of the compat libs. >>As an alternative, there are >>many games available for Linux. A lot of these are available as packages >>for Red Hat's distribution. There is a big advantage here: they're free! >> >> > >Please don't turn your reply into a joke. "There are many games >available for Linux"? Huh? Really? Linux is not even at the beginning >of being a competitor in the games market. > > > No joke. There may not be the same kind of selection for Linux as there is for Windows, but there are plenty to keep you busy for a while. If you go looking for a specific game, you might be disappointed, but open your eyes and you'll find a lot of fun games. >>If there are games for Windows that you really want to get running, you >>can look into Transgaming's Cedega. This is a commercial program that >>may be able to get some of your Windows games running under Linux. >> >> > >Do you have special experience with this to back up your "may be able" >theory? I would be very (!) careful with a statement/recommendation >like that. > > > It is proven software. I say "may be able" because she might try to run games that won't work, but Cedega does a pretty good job with most Windows games, and I have seen proof of that first-hand. >>One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in touch >>with the community. >> >> > >Right. And seek for a real dialogue, not just poorly written letters >which lack any details and give the impression of somebody doing some >role-playing. > > Now that's just rude. I would like to see you write a better letter given the limited amount of information. The fact that you chose to nitpick on the games shows where your interests are. It would be foolish to attempt to go into greater detail regarding the games. As far as role-playing, I would like to know just what role you think I am playing. I am a gamer, a Linux expert, and I handle a lot of end-user support, including support for gamers. I am not playing in any sense. This is a subject I am very familiar with, and it is the kind of thing I deal with on a regular basis. If you deem yourself so qualified to judge in such a manner, lets see your credentials. My letter was provided for reference only. There is no need to start a drawn-out thread arguing back and forth on its merits or shortcomings. If you don't like it, you are free to ignore it, just like everyone else is. If you think you can do a better job, you are free to write your own letter and provide it for review. I don't care to argue about it. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Aug 26 01:44:26 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:44:26 +1000 Subject: NO meeting this week In-Reply-To: References: <1124971967.15466.506.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1125020666.15466.570.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-08-25 at 09:21 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > > In case anyone decides to show up, its bi-monthly remember :) > ^^^^^^^^^^ > Do you mean bi-weekly?! Whoops. Yes. -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Aug 26 02:00:25 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:00:25 +0800 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <440f31f6050825082476779467@mail.gmail.com> References: <430CEAF2.4090502@n-man.com> <440f31f6050825082476779467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1125021626.3644.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > Do you have special experience with this to back up your "may be able" > theory? I would be very (!) careful with a statement/recommendation > like that. > > > One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in touch > > with the community. I do have special experience relating to this. I subscribe to cedega because I don't want to have to use my microsoft partition at all so I choose to spend money. I would prefer to use that money and give it to the wine project however they are not there yet. The specific games that I play work and in fact for me the fps difference is 10fps compared to windows so me personally I'm willing to sacrifice that for running linux 24/7 Also on the transgaming website there is a games database note the *'s are what they support. Regards, Marc From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 26 05:18:49 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:18:49 -0700 Subject: Logo -- let's move on ... the legal loophole of "Fedora(TM)" for Red Hat In-Reply-To: <430BF158.1080603@n-man.com> References: <20050823232244.55826.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430BD65C.6070706@redhat.com> <1124849625.4515.67.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1124850087.4515.74.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDA1B.7050108@redhat.com> <1124850820.4515.85.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDD02.7090101@redhat.com> <1124851456.4515.100.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <430BDF74.2040104@redhat.com> <1124852007.4515.110.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <604aa7910508232029617b3491@mail.gmail.com> <430BF158.1080603@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1125033529.5522.101.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 23:02 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > "Fedora" is just a name ... Fedora is an Italian opera by Umberto Giordano: http://www.r-ds.com/opera/resource/fedora.htm Fedora is an opera company: http://www.fedora-opera.org/ Fedora is a general purpose repository service: http://www.fedora.info/ Fedora could be your next kid's name. That's enough. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Aug 26 05:34:00 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:04:00 +0530 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <20050825174716.14324.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050825174716.14324.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <430EA9C8.4050101@redhat.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>They might be not very competitive 3D shooter ones but >>there are certainly many games for Linux. >> >> > >Excuse me? > >The Linux binary for Unreal Tournament 2003 and 2004 comes >in-the-box. The latest box set has the 64-bit version for >Linux which _outperforms_ the 64-bit version for Windows >(because of how poorly XP 64-bit Edition works, the 64-bit >version for Windows is _slower_ than the 32-bit version). > > I was talking in the context of Fedora and open source games. Even with proprietary games and drivers the Linux gaming market has low visibility regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Aug 26 13:20:39 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:20:39 -0500 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430EA9C8.4050101@redhat.com> References: <20050825174716.14324.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <430EA9C8.4050101@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1125062439.4507.5.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 11:04 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I was talking in the context of Fedora and open source games. Then say open source. ;-> > Even with proprietary games and drivers the Linux gaming market has > low visibility Of course. And I agreed. But even then, consoles are now the flag carrier of games, even in the Windows space. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From mschwendt at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 14:15:17 2005 From: mschwendt at gmail.com (Michael Schwendt) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:15:17 +0200 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <430E43E0.5090201@n-man.com> References: <430CEAF2.4090502@n-man.com> <440f31f6050825082476779467@mail.gmail.com> <430E43E0.5090201@n-man.com> Message-ID: <440f31f605082607151bc97bb0@mail.gmail.com> On 26/08/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > Most games that are available > for Linux will run on current Fedora versions, even without > compatibility libraries. Take a look at the selection in Extras, and > visit happypenguin.org. The few that do require compatibility libraries > will usually work on a Fedora full install anyway, thanks to the > inclusion of the compat libs. What are we talking about? Open Source games programmed by hobbyists or commercial games? As for "the selection in Extras", I don't monitor games in there. Well, I've taken over development and maintainership of the "Battle for Wesnoth" package some time ago because the primary package owner cannot commit to cvs. But hey, none of the games in Extras can compete with the big selling titles which the usual game freak would love to play as soon as they are sold and tested in print magazines. > >>One of the best ways to really get moving with Linux is to get in touch > >>with the community. > >> > >> > > > >Right. And seek for a real dialogue, not just poorly written letters > >which lack any details and give the impression of somebody doing some > >role-playing. > > > > > Now that's just rude. No, it's a quick reality check. Maybe you misunderstood it. But you take such a letter to Red Hat Magazine far too serious. That's IMHO. YMMV. There is no silver bullet for dealing with input like that. Don't assume that a single reply, however long it may get, will satisfy "Judy D.", who did not even have the courage to sign the letter with her full name. She's misinformed about "Linux" in so many ways and throws in a few things which you take as a bait. > I would like to see you write a better letter > given the limited amount of information. That's it, "limited amount of information". The amount is so terribly limited, get her into a dialogue if you are really serious about trying to contact her. Analyse her problems step by step. She mentions "things she cannot do", "a plugin she would like to have", "mail she cannot open". Gosh! How vague and poorly written can a mail to Red Hat be? Has she spent more than a minute on writing that letter? Did she really expect a reply for such a lousy letter? Has she ever before visited a Linux related message board or mailing-list? > The fact that you chose to > nitpick on the games shows where your interests are. It would be > foolish to attempt to go into greater detail regarding the games. Quote: "To tell you the truth I feel totally lost in your system. I cannot use my CDs that have games. I downloaded a game I had paid for. No way could I get it to work. " Problems with games is not only her major complaint, it is a common complaint elsewhere, too. > As > far as role-playing, I would like to know just what role you think I am > playing. Not you, "Judy D.". It's really amazing IMO. Such a lousy letter, and big activity here. From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 00:01:01 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:01:01 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <440f31f605082607151bc97bb0@mail.gmail.com> References: <430CEAF2.4090502@n-man.com> <440f31f6050825082476779467@mail.gmail.com> <430E43E0.5090201@n-man.com> <440f31f605082607151bc97bb0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a050826170136f1c638@mail.gmail.com> This whole thread is an example of why we can't answer Judy. ;) If I got this letter, I would respond to her directly with an offer to help her get some of these things done, and show her places I go to find information or apps or games or plug-ins. Where people like me -- that might also help her next time -- also hang out. Judy was not born with the knowledge of Windows, Word or any of the games she is looking to play. I know nothing of her personally, but I'll bet if she learned Windows enough to be content, she can learn Linux. She doesn't need a lecture on free v. Free, or how she's not ready for Linux or how it's not ready for her. She doesn't need anyone to point out all the things she can't do, when it's probably a much shorter list to lay out what she can do. She needs a letter like Patrick took a whack at. Then she'll *see* Linux is not a product, but a community and we won't have to tell her. --jeremy From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Aug 27 00:16:41 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:16:41 -0500 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <440f31f605082607151bc97bb0@mail.gmail.com> References: <430CEAF2.4090502@n-man.com> <440f31f6050825082476779467@mail.gmail.com> <430E43E0.5090201@n-man.com> <440f31f605082607151bc97bb0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1125101801.4518.8.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 16:15 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > Problems with games is not only her major complaint, it is a common > complaint elsewhere, too. How many times do I have to say it, the gaming industry has razor-thin margins. It is not very profitable. Heck, many of developers are now skipping Windows PCs! Which brings me to that point. Windows PCs aren't exactly a dream either when it comes to games! Case-in-point: Leave the majority of the gaming market to the set-top systems. Many of them are moving to Linux anyway, and most development for them is already done on Linux. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From kwade at redhat.com Sat Aug 27 16:23:25 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:23:25 -0700 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> <430CE036.6070008@n-man.com> <604aa79105082414272b5b7478@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1125159805.5522.127.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 17:32 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/24/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Since so much effort is going into > > actually building Fedora specific packages in Extras..I'd rather > > notify Fedora users of that first and foremost. > > And.. while I'm thinking about it.. there is a second-order effect PR > win here. An in-distro tool that users can use to watch "interesting" > additions to Extras gives an easy way for users to watch and be > excited about the growth of technology IN Fedora. Small reminders to > people..people like reviewers who sit and play with Fedora on their > workstation and desktop that this is an active, growing community of > contributors. +1 If we had a way to, even manually, parse fresh packages into finer grains than by comp group, we could have these emails list new packages by interest. Maybe not every interest would have something new this week, but perhaps there's links to all the not-new interests at the bottom. I think the flashy icon thing is annoying for me, but works for many. If that flashy icon was yum (up2date-panel-widget?) so you could grab the game immediately and, hey, why not get that kernel security update while you are at it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Aug 27 16:27:59 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:27:59 -0700 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <20050824221123.13211.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050824221123.13211.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1125160079.5522.133.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 15:11 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Stuart Ellis wrote: > > RSS ? > > ... > > May or may not be good ideas - I'm just trying to think of > > low-effort ways this could be done... > > Excellent idea. Just have someone come up with a default > page for Mozilla, Firefox, etc... that has several RSS feeds. Can you bugzilla that idea, against the Fedora Documentation Project, release-notes component? The relnotes is where the content is coming from, we can put that at the top. Five items at the top, perhaps: * What's new in Fedora Core 5 * How to get new and fun software * Using yum to update your system * Why no MP3s? and more on patents and laws * Technical release notes, a.k.a. the dirty details Also, we need a new XSL for the relnotes. We need a new look and feel. This is easier to fix, a package under our purview (Sopwith's), instead of having to fix Firefox with new content each release, right? We don't have to QA the Firefox package, just the relnotes. A pretty look with our new logo, easy access to common questions that plague us, and our good ol' release notes, organized by beat. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 16:33:58 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:33:58 -0400 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <1125159805.5522.127.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <604aa79105082409062b141f26@mail.gmail.com> <1124900498.15207.241389046@webmail.messagingengine.com> <604aa79105082413272503280b@mail.gmail.com> <430CE036.6070008@n-man.com> <604aa79105082414272b5b7478@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910508241432571e356c@mail.gmail.com> <1125159805.5522.127.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910508270933748db073@mail.gmail.com> On 8/27/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > I think the flashy icon thing is annoying for me, but works for many. > If that flashy icon was yum (up2date-panel-widget?) so you could grab > the game immediately and, hey, why not get that kernel security update > while you are at it. IF the notifier was going to ever be implemented, then i would of course like this feature to be integrated into whatever new notifier is to replace rhn-applet. So that the single notifier could be used for "relevant updates" as well as "new and interesting" -jef From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Aug 27 17:38:48 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:38:48 -0500 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <1125160079.5522.133.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20050824221123.13211.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1125160079.5522.133.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1125164328.4518.69.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 09:27 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Can you bugzilla that idea, against the Fedora Documentation Project, > release-notes component? The relnotes is where the content is coming > from, we can put that at the top. Five items at the top, perhaps: > * What's new in Fedora Core 5 > * How to get new and fun software > * Using yum to update your system > * Why no MP3s? and more on patents and laws > * Technical release notes, a.k.a. the dirty details I guess I could if you give me a week. I'm currently finishing off work at a client (so I'm working 7-days/week, 10+ hours/day). > Also, we need a new XSL for the relnotes. We need a new look and > feel. I'm definitely not a XSL guy. But me see what Mr. Ashe might think of. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From kwade at redhat.com Sun Aug 28 04:53:27 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:53:27 -0700 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <1125164328.4518.69.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <20050824221123.13211.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1125160079.5522.133.camel@erato.phig.org> <1125164328.4518.69.camel@bert64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1125204808.5522.136.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 12:38 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 09:27 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Can you bugzilla that idea, against the Fedora Documentation Project, > > release-notes component? The relnotes is where the content is coming > > from, we can put that at the top. Five items at the top, perhaps: > > * What's new in Fedora Core 5 > > * How to get new and fun software > > * Using yum to update your system > > * Why no MP3s? and more on patents and laws > > * Technical release notes, a.k.a. the dirty details > > I guess I could if you give me a week. I'm currently finishing off work > at a client (so I'm working 7-days/week, 10+ hours/day). > > > Also, we need a new XSL for the relnotes. We need a new look and > > feel. > > I'm definitely not a XSL guy. But me see what Mr. Ashe might think of. Sure, that wasn't directed at you in particular, that was a generic call to arms. And I meant CSS, not XSL, actually. Or, a little of both. ;-D - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Aug 28 05:16:51 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <1125204808.5522.136.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050828051651.91440.qmail@web34103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > And I meant CSS, not XSL, actually. Or, a little of both. Yeah, I was wondering. Of course, you'all have heard of Nvu, correct? [ If not: http://www.nvu.com ] It has CaScadeS integrated. -- Bryan J. Smith | Sent from Yahoo Mail mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org | (please excuse any http://thebs413.blogspot.com/ | missing headers) From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Aug 28 05:26:59 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:26:59 -0500 Subject: Who's the Fedora user? In-Reply-To: <20050828051651.91440.qmail@web34103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050828051651.91440.qmail@web34103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43114B23.1090604@n-man.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >Karsten Wade wrote: > > >>And I meant CSS, not XSL, actually. Or, a little of both. >> >> > >Yeah, I was wondering. > >Of course, you'all have heard of Nvu, correct? >[ If not: http://www.nvu.com ] > >It has CaScadeS integrated. > > > > While I have heard good things about Nvu and its support for standards-compliance and cascading style-sheets, I have a hard time trusting WYSIWYG editors of any kind. However, if someone wants to put something together in Nvu, I'd be happy to review it. :-) -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lrolatti at racine.ra.it Sun Aug 28 07:49:28 2005 From: lrolatti at racine.ra.it (Luigi Rolatti) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:49:28 +0200 Subject: Subscript Message-ID: <000e01c5aba5$090c9420$3c01a8c0@CECILIA> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Aug 28 21:23:06 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:23:06 -0500 Subject: Fedora marketing - Logos In-Reply-To: <1125255929.5254.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1125255929.5254.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43122B3A.3070204@n-man.com> Fabian M. Schindler wrote: > Good day, Mr. Barnes. > > I am currently the Graphic-Dept. Manager of Yoper Linux Ltd. and thus > have to do with design of Logos, websites, icons and such things. > Apart from Yoper I also use Fedora, thus I found the Fedora-Wiki and > the logo design topic. I have thought a bit about solutions for Fedora > and it is logical that an good logo needs to be simple, easy for > printing, with minimal distraction, attractive, dynamic and easy to > distinguish from other logos, like e.g. Nike or Mercedes. Most of the > propositions in the Wiki do not really fit the one or the other basic > aspect of logo-design. > > After some sketches, I came up with the following logo concept. I hope > you can add it to the logo list in the Wiki. > > Now, some explanations to the design: > > - Blue is a "must" as it is already established as the "Fedora-color". > > - The circle shape is used as a reference to the RedHat logo, which is > round, too. As Fedora is a testbed for RedHat, it is only logical to > tie both Distributions one to another without making the logos twins. > > - The "F" got curved/smoothed down in order to make it look more dynamic. > > - At the "foot" of the Fedora-F there is enough space left for > additions to the logo: Core, Extras, Legacy, etc. > > - The Fedora-Core logo (as seen in the sketch) will have the current > number of the Fedora release added in a very light grey/silver shade. > This adds some distinction to the logo without distracting the overall > look. > > I hope that the concept will be useful. In case that the svg-sources > should be required, I can mail them to you. > > Sincerely, > > Fabian M. Schindler > > > > -- > Fabian M. Schindler > > Graphic Dept.-Manager > *Yoper Linux Ltd.* > New Zealand > I will place your image on the wiki page. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 29 04:57:54 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:27:54 +0530 Subject: Linux format review: Fedora Core 4 Message-ID: <431295D2.90507@redhat.com> Hi Ever since reading http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20050711#1 I have been curious to see this review and thanks to Andy Hudson for sending me a copy of this article. This review which awards 4/10 points for the Fedora Core 4 release runs into a couple of pages and is a nice change from the usual ill informed MP3 rants and cursory looks. Time for feedback now! The reviews goes into a general introduction that notes the change in the default GNOME desktop theme from Bluecurve to Clearlooks, switch to GCC 4.0 and stresses the movement of packages from core to extras as a controversy that has alarmed Fedora users and notes that PPC is now a supported architecture. The controversy over extras has been compared to the refusal of Red Hat to include 2.6 kernel in RHEL3. RHEL 3 was released on October 2003, a few months before the first release of 2.6 version of the Linux kernel, providing such a major version bump during errata updates is something which no distribution has done in my knowledge. In both cases, the "annoyances" for any users are seemingly irrational to me. The review has several sections covering different aspects of the changes in this release. Software shelved: http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20050711#1 It has been that mentioned many packages like Abiword, Exim, XEmacs and XFCE has moved into extras as a effort to reduce bloat and this would be a problem for users who want to retrieve such packages over a dial up connection. I dont buy this argument. Lets assume for a moment that Fedora Core 4 included all of these packages in a 5 CD collection without moving anything to the extras repository, would users with a dial up connection be able to download it then?. At any case, Fedora Core wouldnt ever serve as a set of all the software that any user could ever want. As Fedora Core gets trimmed to a more manageable collection of default applications, integration with Fedora Extras and potentially other third party repositories should be transparent enough that the users wouldnt have to care which repository their favorite application is in . As a first step, FC4 ships with the extras repository enabled by default as mentioned in the review. Now further being work in Anaconda in using a yum backend would enable users to mix and match their applications from various repositories during installation time. If there is sufficient interests, anyone could spin off the other Fedora compatible repositories into ISO images for redistribution. GUI Limbo: GCC 4.0 has been described as a gamble here. Red Hat developers have significant stake in the development of GCC with in depth knowledge that enabled them to rebuild nearly all of Fedora Core with this compiler including fixes to packages and even to the compiler when necessary. A previous version has been shipped for compatibility reasons. While pushing new technology always has risks, it also has its benefits and this is what Fedora is meant to be. The focus on whether GCC 4 would yield any performance benefits, in my opinion misses a important point. GCC 4 includes a significantly improved version of GCJ which has enabled the inclusion of Eclipse, Openoffice.org 2.0 milestone release including the Java parts, Apache Jakarta among several natively compiled Java components. This is a significant advancement of a completely Free Java stack which includes extensive work done over many years, the importance of this and the relationship with the new compiler seemed to have gone unnoticed in the review. The criticism of the lack of improvements in the system configuration tools (system-config*) especially system-config-package's lack of understanding of the yum repositories is indeed valid and significant work is being done during the FC5 timeframe to address this. Comfortably yum: This short section has a well deserved praise in this section for improvements in speed using XML headers and SQLite backend. Kudos to the yum developers on this. Core Proposition: The review mentions that this release is just a standard update despite the inclusion of Xen and trimming down a few packages in comparison with SUSE 9.3 Pro which includes Mono and Beagle. Setting aside the Mono factor*, Fedora Core 4's inclusion of GFS cluster filesystem, Evince, Apache Jakarta along with the improvements in the SELinux policies have gone unnoticed in the review http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/#sn-new-in-fc Taking into consideration, the only major criticism, "GUI limbo" as mentioned in the review, the overall score seems unfair to me even after reading the comments in the forum from the site admin, who mentions that the scores have been readjusted in such a way that 5/10 means a average one which many distributions would get. http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=709 A amusing comment from the side admin caught my eye there "On the flip side, I would never, ever use it as a server distro either, simply because it doesn't provide a good enough security infrastructure for my requirements. ". FC4 includes Exec Shield, GCC 4 security improvements and 91 daemons covered under SELinux targeted policy by default along with the strict policy as an alternative. I would have thought that would provided enough of a security infrastructure in comparison to any other distribution or even operating system out there. regards Rahul * http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/errata/#sn-why-no-mp3 PS: It would perhaps be a good idea to look at how reviewers go about understanding new release highlights to help them see through such changes in an evident manner. It would be interesting to hear Andy Hudson's comments on his approach From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Aug 29 06:17:59 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:17:59 +0300 Subject: Linux format review: Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <431295D2.90507@redhat.com> References: <431295D2.90507@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4312A897.7010600@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Software shelved: > http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20050711#1 > It has been that mentioned many packages like Abiword, Exim, XEmacs and > XFCE has moved into extras as a effort to reduce bloat and this would be > a problem for users who want to retrieve such packages over a dial up > connection. I dont buy this argument. Lets assume for a moment that > Fedora Core 4 included all of these packages in a 5 CD collection > without moving anything to the extras repository, would users with a > dial up connection be able to download it then?. This argument is valid. Dial-up users does not download isos over their dial-up connection, they either 1) download at other place (at work, a friend), 2) borrow and copy the discs or 3) wait (in my country like 3 or 4 months after a release) for a computer magazine to come out with the discs included. So for them the content of the install set is very important. -- nicu my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Aug 29 06:21:21 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:51:21 +0530 Subject: Linux format review: Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <4312A897.7010600@nicubunu.ro> References: <431295D2.90507@redhat.com> <4312A897.7010600@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <4312A961.3070502@redhat.com> Nicu Buculei wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> > > Software shelved: > >> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20050711#1 >> It has been that mentioned many packages like Abiword, Exim, XEmacs >> and XFCE has moved into extras as a effort to reduce bloat and this >> would be a problem for users who want to retrieve such packages over >> a dial up connection. I dont buy this argument. Lets assume for a >> moment that Fedora Core 4 included all of these packages in a 5 CD >> collection without moving anything to the extras repository, would >> users with a dial up connection be able to download it then?. > > > This argument is valid. Dial-up users does not download isos over > their dial-up connection, they either 1) download at other place (at > work, a friend), 2) borrow and copy the discs or 3) wait (in my > country like 3 or 4 months after a release) for a computer magazine to > come out with the discs included. So for them the content of the > install set is very important. > 1) and 2) can be done for individual packages too. In fact for both these cases, downloading what they want instead of whole ISO images makes a lot more sense regards Rahul From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Mon Aug 29 06:25:25 2005 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 02:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux format review: Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <4312A961.3070502@redhat.com> References: <431295D2.90507@redhat.com> <4312A897.7010600@nicubunu.ro> <4312A961.3070502@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > This argument is valid. Dial-up users does not download isos over > > their dial-up connection, they either 1) download at other place (at > > work, a friend), 2) borrow and copy the discs or 3) wait (in my > > country like 3 or 4 months after a release) for a computer magazine to > > come out with the discs included. So for them the content of the > > install set is very important. > > > 1) and 2) can be done for individual packages too. In fact for both > these cases, downloading what they want instead of whole ISO images > makes a lot more sense Just if you go all the way to figure out which packages you need (considering all dependencies and all), and go download them one by one from work or somewhere else... Bundling EXTRA into ISO images solves that problem though. > regards > Rahul --behdad http://behdad.org/ From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Aug 29 07:43:29 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:43:29 +0300 Subject: Linux format review: Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <4312A961.3070502@redhat.com> References: <431295D2.90507@redhat.com> <4312A897.7010600@nicubunu.ro> <4312A961.3070502@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4312BCA1.2040105@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Nicu Buculei wrote: > >> This argument is valid. Dial-up users does not download isos over >> their dial-up connection, they either 1) download at other place (at >> work, a friend), 2) borrow and copy the discs or 3) wait (in my >> country like 3 or 4 months after a release) for a computer magazine to >> come out with the discs included. So for them the content of the >> install set is very important. >> > 1) and 2) can be done for individual packages too. In fact for both > these cases, downloading what they want instead of whole ISO images > makes a lot more sense I an not on dial-up at home, only on a slow neighborhood LAN, but I did such crazy things like fully updating my work computer and going home with the complete content of /var/cache/yum/ on CDRW, but is not very convenient. -- nicu my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From barzilay at redhat.com Mon Aug 29 08:59:59 2005 From: barzilay at redhat.com (David Barzilay) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:59:59 +1000 Subject: [Re: Fedora Foundation around the world] Message-ID: <1125305999.6422.71.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> -- -- David Barzilay Brazilian Portuguese Technical Translator Red Hat Asia-Pacific -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: David Barzilay Subject: Re: Fedora Foundation around the world Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:58:31 +1000 Size: 2288 URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 29 09:09:39 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 02:09:39 -0700 Subject: Linux format review: Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <431295D2.90507@redhat.com> References: <431295D2.90507@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1125306580.2956.19.camel@erato.phig.org> Thanks for bringing this up. I, too, am curious about how a review is conducted, and what we can do during the test cycle to get reviewers to notice certain things. I think this is where the truth in advertising comes in, we could do ourselves and others a service in detailing the ups and downs of every release. Hey! We do that already, in something called the release notes. Unfortunately for us, they were singularly lacking new material content until the release. As was pointed out previously, some reviewers base their work on the test releases. If, for FC4, they had only the sparse test release notes to work from, it's not surprising that so much got missed that we highlighted in the notes. Another comment: On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 10:27 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Taking into consideration, the only major criticism, "GUI limbo" as > mentioned in the review, the overall score seems unfair to me even after > reading the comments in the forum from the site admin, who mentions that > the scores have been readjusted in such a way that 5/10 means a average > one which many distributions would get. > > http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=709 This was highly annoying for me. The rating system was changed, but no note of this was made in the key that showed the rating! Regardless of them changing their scoring system, the common n/10 designation has a pre-existing meaning. Even 5/10 reads as a bad score. This is unfair to readers. > A amusing comment from the side admin caught my eye there "On the flip > side, I would never, ever use it as a server distro either, simply > because it doesn't provide a good enough security infrastructure for my > requirements. ". FC4 includes Exec Shield, GCC 4 security improvements > and 91 daemons covered under SELinux targeted policy by default along > with the strict policy as an alternative. I would have thought that > would provided enough of a security infrastructure in comparison to any > other distribution or even operating system out there. Yeah, I was very curious what this sysadmin's security requirements are! - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From webmanagement at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 12:23:50 2005 From: webmanagement at gmail.com (Andy Hudson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:23:50 +0100 Subject: Linux format review: Fedora Core 4 In-Reply-To: <1125306580.2956.19.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <431295D2.90507@redhat.com> <1125306580.2956.19.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On 29/08/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > This was highly annoying for me. The rating system was changed, but no > note of this was made in the key that showed the rating! > > Regardless of them changing their scoring system, the common n/10 > designation has a pre-existing meaning. Even 5/10 reads as a bad score. > This is unfair to readers. Hi Karsten, Thanks for yours and other peoples comments on the review. 1. The scoring system. I believe that in the introduction to the reviews section each scoring level is explained so the reader understands that a 5/10 is an average score. 2. As for my review process - well, I tracked FC4 all the way through the test releases as well as running a Rawhide system to track more immediate changes. This gave me about a four month window to get under the skin of FC4. During this time I noted a number of changes and additions to Fedora, but what really got under my skin was the lack of improvement in basic GUI configuration tools - IIRC one of the screenshots I used was that of the singularly unhelpful system-config-language which only displayed one option, US English! 3. Yum - A big shout should go out to Seth and any other Yum contributors. So much improvement has happened with Yum since FC1, and I am looking forward to playing with Pup (when I have the chance!) to see how Paul Nasrat has been getting on. 4. Missing out GFS et al. It is often difficult to cover all the areas even within a two page review - I was commissioned to deliver a two page article, but it could easily have run to three or four pages had I been able to cover such additions as GFS, which I might also argue wouldn't be entirely relevant for the readership of Linux Format. 5. Extras - I whole-heartedly support the idea of moving packages with duplicate functionality out to Extras. However, the impact on the take-up of Fedora must be assessed when doing this. As was pointed out by another poster, not everyone has access to a corporate LAN or broadband connection and can only depend on a dial-up connection. Linux Format has an enviable position of providing at least one distro per issue as well as a wide range of other software - something I think you will find that the other Linux magazines just do not do. If Extras was to be made available as an ISO for either CDs or DVDs then at least it could be bundled with magazines, and also made available through Linux re-sellers. We've got to get away from this mentality that everyone has a decent Internet connection - it's fine for those of us who are fortunate to be able to work at a company with high-speed access, or who can afford DSL or Cable connections. 6. GCC Gambles - As I mentioned in a follow-up post to the forum, the link for which is http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=709 , I perhaps used the wrong word - Gamble is a very emotional word, and I should have used Risk. As everyone is more than aware, the move to any new technology is always accompanied with an associated risk. I am well aware of Red Hat's expertise with GCC and I highlighted on the forum the upside that if Red Hat say that it is worthy for inclusion then it must be OK. 7. Summary - I finally highlighted, in response to criticism as to how I could write a book about FC4 yet still give it a low score, that I believe FC4 to be a stepping-stone or interim release towards FC5, which I am greatly looking forward to. I'm happy to answer any further questions or listen to any other criticism, so feel free to either email me off-list or, if it is on-topic, through the marketing list. Thanks, Andrew From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 15:04:40 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:04:40 -0400 Subject: [Re: Fedora Foundation around the world] In-Reply-To: <1125305999.6422.71.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1125305999.6422.71.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <556f970a050829080423a9d92b@mail.gmail.com> FWIW I think #1 is counter to the point of Fedora. If we do it right, this won't need to be true. In fact, Red Hat's (real and perceived) holding on so tightly to the reigns is probably 80% of what's not gone right with this project. There is tremendous power to a mix of RH and non-RH spokespeople, the most obvious of which is that folks have to take anything a RH staff member says with the "publicly held always-for-profit" grain of salt. As long as the spokespeople are informed, or can easily be in touch with RH for coaching/info/feedback, RH's message will be part of the Fedora message. Otherwise we will continue to re-inforce that this project is purely for the benefit of, and at the whim of RH. Fedora has to appear free to become something other than what RH dictates, or else it is nothing but a RHEL beta. The important thing is that we are in sync with RH on what the core message is, and how to speak about RHs involvement. If we trust the message, we can trust the messenger. --jeremy On 8/29/05, David Barzilay wrote: > > -- > -- > David Barzilay > Brazilian Portuguese > Technical Translator > Red Hat Asia-Pacific > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: David Barzilay > To: Greg DeKoenigsberg , Mark Webbink > Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:58:31 +1000 > Subject: Re: Fedora Foundation around the world > On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 09:38 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > And then I'd like your input on the idea of Community Marketing Contacts > > (CMCs), and whether you think this is a sufficient body for getting > > global input. > > Dear Greg and Mark, > > Initially, I believe the idea of Community Marketing Contacts is great! > > I don't know who are the people you intend choosing to cover the globe, > but I have a few concerns I thought I should address here: > > 1) They have to be RedHatters, and native speakers of the specific > language. Otherwise, I don't think they'll be able to thoroughly > represent RH in a certain community nor understand their needs; > > 2) I know a few members of our i18n team > (http://intranet.corp.redhat.com/ic/intranet/EngInternationalizationLocalization.html), who would probably enjoy the challenge, but majority of us is sited in Brisbane (Australia), so wouldn't make the local events and LUGs; > > 3) How are we dealing with laws in different countries (e.g.: I need a > non-for-profit organization registration number to register a .org.br > domain name in Brazil...) > > For a start, I'd suggest creating a Marketing Plan for the Fedora > Foundation as if RH was launching a brand new product, allowing enough > time for the Community Marketing Contacts to adapt the materials to all > languages, and coordinating timely news publishing. > > Feel free to browse through our team's intranet page (above), and don't > hesitate to contact me if your need further assistance. > > To request a Localization job, please go to: > https://i18n.brisbane.redhat.com/rt3/index.html > > Thanks, > -- > David Barzilay > Brazilian Portuguese > Technical Translator > Red Hat Asia-Pacific > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > From gdk at redhat.com Mon Aug 29 15:41:00 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Re: Fedora Foundation around the world] In-Reply-To: <556f970a050829080423a9d92b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1125305999.6422.71.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <556f970a050829080423a9d92b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Exactly right, Jeremy. Well said. Hey, maybe you could do *my* job! (Oh, wait...) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > FWIW I think #1 is counter to the point of Fedora. If we do it right, > this won't need to be true. In fact, Red Hat's (real and perceived) > holding on so tightly to the reigns is probably 80% of what's not gone > right with this project. > > There is tremendous power to a mix of RH and non-RH spokespeople, the > most obvious of which is that folks have to take anything a RH staff > member says with the "publicly held always-for-profit" grain of salt. > As long as the spokespeople are informed, or can easily be in touch > with RH for coaching/info/feedback, RH's message will be part of the > Fedora message. Otherwise we will continue to re-inforce that this > project is purely for the benefit of, and at the whim of RH. > > Fedora has to appear free to become something other than what RH > dictates, or else it is nothing but a RHEL beta. > > The important thing is that we are in sync with RH on what the core > message is, and how to speak about RHs involvement. If we trust the > message, we can trust the messenger. > > --jeremy > > On 8/29/05, David Barzilay wrote: > > > > -- > > -- > > David Barzilay > > Brazilian Portuguese > > Technical Translator > > Red Hat Asia-Pacific > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: David Barzilay > > To: Greg DeKoenigsberg , Mark Webbink > > Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:58:31 +1000 > > Subject: Re: Fedora Foundation around the world > > On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 09:38 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > And then I'd like your input on the idea of Community Marketing Contacts > > > (CMCs), and whether you think this is a sufficient body for getting > > > global input. > > > > Dear Greg and Mark, > > > > Initially, I believe the idea of Community Marketing Contacts is great! > > > > I don't know who are the people you intend choosing to cover the globe, > > but I have a few concerns I thought I should address here: > > > > 1) They have to be RedHatters, and native speakers of the specific > > language. Otherwise, I don't think they'll be able to thoroughly > > represent RH in a certain community nor understand their needs; > > > > 2) I know a few members of our i18n team > > (http://intranet.corp.redhat.com/ic/intranet/EngInternationalizationLocalization.html), who would probably enjoy the challenge, but majority of us is sited in Brisbane (Australia), so wouldn't make the local events and LUGs; > > > > 3) How are we dealing with laws in different countries (e.g.: I need a > > non-for-profit organization registration number to register a .org.br > > domain name in Brazil...) > > > > For a start, I'd suggest creating a Marketing Plan for the Fedora > > Foundation as if RH was launching a brand new product, allowing enough > > time for the Community Marketing Contacts to adapt the materials to all > > languages, and coordinating timely news publishing. > > > > Feel free to browse through our team's intranet page (above), and don't > > hesitate to contact me if your need further assistance. > > > > To request a Localization job, please go to: > > https://i18n.brisbane.redhat.com/rt3/index.html > > > > Thanks, > > -- > > David Barzilay > > Brazilian Portuguese > > Technical Translator > > Red Hat Asia-Pacific > > > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From nman64 at n-man.com Mon Aug 29 22:45:53 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:45:53 -0500 Subject: fedora logo In-Reply-To: <431335B9.7010101@jannino.com> References: <431335B9.7010101@jannino.com> Message-ID: <43139021.70001@n-man.com> Joseph Annino wrote: > I saw a post about the fedora logo in the fedora news rss feed with > your email attached to the article. The idea of how to make a fedora > logo that doesn't have a hat but it still somehow meaningful to the > name I thought was an interesting challenge. I'm not much of a > designer, but I did put something together in a few minutes. Here are > urls: > > http://www.jannino.com/images/fedora.png > http://www.jannino.com/images/fedora.svg > > The idea was to make a hat without having it be a literal hat. The > black line around the logo forms the brim of the hat. The band and > bow found on a fedora is suggested by negative space within the logo > type. Its pretty clean and simple. It seems to scale well from this > big size down to 20% (take a look at the SVG) while still being > readable. The font could be changed to match whatever font Fedora > normally likes to use. > > Anyhow, just an idea to add to those out there already. > I'll add your images to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From barzilay at redhat.com Tue Aug 30 01:27:09 2005 From: barzilay at redhat.com (David Barzilay) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:27:09 +1000 Subject: [Re: Fedora Foundation around the world] In-Reply-To: <556f970a050829080423a9d92b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1125305999.6422.71.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <556f970a050829080423a9d92b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1125365229.6466.36.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> Hi Folks, Just a few points from a non-native English speaker... On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 11:04 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > FWIW I think #1 is counter to the point of Fedora. If we do it right, > this won't need to be true. In fact, Red Hat's (real and perceived) > holding on so tightly to the reigns is probably 80% of what's not gone > right with this project. > > There is tremendous power to a mix of RH and non-RH spokespeople, the > most obvious of which is that folks have to take anything a RH staff > member says with the "publicly held always-for-profit" grain of salt. Agreed > As long as the spokespeople are informed, That's exactly the point I am trying to make. I was asked for input on the idea of Community Marketing Contacts being enough for global input. Well, how many fluent languages are represented within the current selected group? What's the possible global coverage by these people? Whoever the spokespeople are, how do you intend to overcome the language barriers to keep them well informed? > The important thing is that we are in sync with RH on what the core > message is, and how to speak about RHs involvement. If we trust the > message, we can trust the messenger. You probably can. But, do you intend to spread the message only in English? Who would you trust to adapt the message into different languages, and make sure it is in sync with RH? Thanks for listening! Cheers, -- David Barzilay From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 30 03:55:58 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:55:58 -0700 Subject: [Re: Fedora Foundation around the world] In-Reply-To: <1125365229.6466.36.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1125305999.6422.71.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <556f970a050829080423a9d92b@mail.gmail.com> <1125365229.6466.36.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1125374158.6117.27.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-30 at 11:27 +1000, David Barzilay wrote: > > As long as the spokespeople are informed, > > That's exactly the point I am trying to make. I was asked for input on > the idea of Community Marketing Contacts being enough for global input. > > Well, how many fluent languages are represented within the current > selected group? What's the possible global coverage by these people? > > Whoever the spokespeople are, how do you intend to overcome the language > barriers to keep them well informed? > > > The important thing is that we are in sync with RH on what the core > > message is, and how to speak about RHs involvement. If we trust the > > message, we can trust the messenger. > > You probably can. But, do you intend to spread the message only in > English? > > Who would you trust to adapt the message into different languages, and > make sure it is in sync with RH? Is this something the translation team might be interested in? We've discussed creating "marketing packs" or "FUDCon in a box" that has the pieces and directions to hosting a local Fedora event. These can be very standardized. They can be created collaboratively via a Wiki, and we can use DocBook (slides and book) to create the final format, allowing us to use the translation process as-is. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 30 04:57:51 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:57:51 -0700 Subject: Fedora marketing - Logos In-Reply-To: <43122B3A.3070204@n-man.com> References: <1125255929.5254.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43122B3A.3070204@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1125377871.6117.41.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-08-28 at 16:23 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Fabian M. Schindler wrote: > > > > - Blue is a "must" as it is already established as the "Fedora-color". > > > > - The circle shape is used as a reference to the RedHat logo, which is > > round, too. As Fedora is a testbed for RedHat, it is only logical to > > tie both Distributions one to another without making the logos twins. > > > > - The "F" got curved/smoothed down in order to make it look more dynamic. > > > > - At the "foot" of the Fedora-F there is enough space left for > > additions to the logo: Core, Extras, Legacy, etc. > > > > - The Fedora-Core logo (as seen in the sketch) will have the current > > number of the Fedora release added in a very light grey/silver shade. > > This adds some distinction to the logo without distracting the overall > > look. I like this one, but doesn't it look like the Fantastic Four logo? I already have a hard enough time writing/saying "FF" to refer to the Fedora Foundation. Are we prepared to take the concept further? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sankar at redhat.com Tue Aug 30 05:38:47 2005 From: sankar at redhat.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhay) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:08:47 +0530 Subject: [Re: Fedora Foundation around the world] In-Reply-To: <1125374158.6117.27.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1125305999.6422.71.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <556f970a050829080423a9d92b@mail.gmail.com> <1125365229.6466.36.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <1125374158.6117.27.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4313F0E7.7000608@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Karsten Wade wrote: > Is this something the translation team might be interested in? Might just turn out to be a killer idea :) > We've discussed creating "marketing packs" or "FUDCon in a box" that has > the pieces and directions to hosting a local Fedora event. These can be > very standardized. They can be created collaboratively via a Wiki, and > we can use DocBook (slides and book) to create the final format, > allowing us to use the translation process as-is. Given that the GNOME Tour concept is creating the right waves, creating Marketing Packs or FUDCon (Fedora ?) in a Box would provide the right impetus towards setting the interaction in process. Regards Sankarshan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDE/Dn+g4kmZ76nyERAqY0AJ9kggsrGFt52M2FJJUfSjbqqINKHQCfZyWG cxhQ65zm1tqcg4yYq3dKJLw= =tr6D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 13:57:31 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:57:31 -0400 Subject: [Re: Fedora Foundation around the world] In-Reply-To: <1125365229.6466.36.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1125305999.6422.71.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <556f970a050829080423a9d92b@mail.gmail.com> <1125365229.6466.36.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05083006577d2dbd4b@mail.gmail.com> On 8/29/05, David Barzilay wrote: > > > > As long as the spokespeople are informed, > > Whoever the spokespeople are, how do you intend to overcome the language > barriers to keep them well informed? > > FWIW, I was in total agreement on the language issue, my point was whether all CMCs should be Red Hatters or not. --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 31 00:42:17 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:42:17 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [SATLUG] Fedora is best for AMD64] Message-ID: <4314FCE9.30308@n-man.com> I enjoyed this enough to think it worth sharing. It isn't often enough that we see a good review of Fedora. This may just be somebody's simple post to a LUG, but hey, I'll take victories wherever I can find them. Posted to SATLUG, the San Antonio LUG. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Mike Subject: [SATLUG] Fedora is best for AMD64 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Size: 8596 URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sankar at redhat.com Wed Aug 31 14:39:19 2005 From: sankar at redhat.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhay) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:09:19 +0530 Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <1124377232.21186.334.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> <1124377232.21186.334.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <4315C117.1010005@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Colin Charles wrote: > Can we then officially make said LUG rep the community marketing > contact? I.e. if there's a new FC release, or something press worthy > that we come up with, they deal with local press? > > They also do all the other requirements, like during Software Freedom > Day, they organise stuff, and so on I daresay that this would be a good idea. Provides adequate reason for the LUG buy-in. And if properly primed, the local media would be well fed with information for all the *hot* stuff Fedora keeps dishing out. So what are the Action Items to take this forward ? Regards Sankarshan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDFcEX+g4kmZ76nyERAjKWAJ4vg+XiQHOFNYCRQ++0XMmdkLSNjACgo6zN r6+L/ul+VYX0lvY5AxIDWyM= =VOxO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gdk at redhat.com Wed Aug 31 14:50:46 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux User Groups In-Reply-To: <4315C117.1010005@redhat.com> References: <4301F30A.7080002@redhat.com> <4301F375.9050506@redhat.com> <4301F92A.4020306@redhat.com> <1124377232.21186.334.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <4315C117.1010005@redhat.com> Message-ID: I think we'll discuss action items at tomorrow's meeting, yes? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Sankarshan Mukhopadhay wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Colin Charles wrote: > > > Can we then officially make said LUG rep the community marketing > > contact? I.e. if there's a new FC release, or something press worthy > > that we come up with, they deal with local press? > > > > They also do all the other requirements, like during Software Freedom > > Day, they organise stuff, and so on > > I daresay that this would be a good idea. Provides adequate reason for > the LUG buy-in. And if properly primed, the local media would be well > fed with information for all the *hot* stuff Fedora keeps dishing out. > > So what are the Action Items to take this forward ? > > Regards > Sankarshan > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFDFcEX+g4kmZ76nyERAjKWAJ4vg+XiQHOFNYCRQ++0XMmdkLSNjACgo6zN > r6+L/ul+VYX0lvY5AxIDWyM= > =VOxO > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From lxmaier at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 15:35:04 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:35:04 +0200 Subject: FUDCon London 2005--schedule finalized Message-ID: <7f617d2705083108352344aaeb@mail.gmail.com> Hello folks, As a reminder, FUDCon will take place on October 6, 2005, in London, Olympia, in parallel to the second day of LWE UK. You will find the brand new finalized schedule at http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon Tomorrow, Red Hat will launch a press release on FUDCon, and a promo will roll out on all European Red Hat sites and on the US homepage as well. We have 16 registrations so far, so spread the word and drive more registrations! Thank you, Alex -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference